Manitoba Hansard — 26 April 1993 (Sitting 49A, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-49a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 49A • 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, APRIL 26, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky GARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Gu izar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH , Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLIST ER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2038 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, Aprll 26, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of H. Lindblom, Darwin Massey, Barry Flett and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for friendship centres in Manitoba. * * * Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of William Collins, Howard Almdal, Leanne Urbanski and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowances program. *** Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Keith Sparvier, Lydia Sparvier, Trent Sparvier and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the student social allowances program ; and

WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHER EAS the provincia l gov ernm ent has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

WHEREAS the provincial government is now proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program ; and WHERE AS elim inating the student social allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowances program. *** Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 19 93 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and

WHEREAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, educati on, recr eation and cul tural program ming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy;

2039 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA April 26, 1993 WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the student social allowances program; and

WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHER EAS the provincial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

WHEREAS the provincial government is now proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and WHERE AS elimin ating the studen t social allowances program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time education, resulting in more long- term costs for city taxpayers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowances program. Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the student social allowances program; and

WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHERE AS the provincial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHE REAS the provincial government is now proposing to eliminate the student social allowances program; and WHERE AS elimin ating the studen t social allowances program will result in more than a thousand you ng people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the student social allowances program. TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table today the 1 991 -92 Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission of the Province of Manitoba. Hon. Ha rry Enns (Mi nis ter of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1 991 -92 of the Department of Natural Resources, alon g with the Supplemen tary Information for Legislative Review copy for the year '93-94. • (1 335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 28-The Manitoba Intercultural Council Repeal Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 28, The Manitoba Intercultural Council Repeal Act (Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur le Conseil intercultural du Manitoba), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

April 26, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2040 His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the co nte nts of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table that message also. Motion agreed to. 811127-The Environment Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) , that Bill 27, The Environment Amendment Act {2) {Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'environnement), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 212- The Dauphin Memorial Community Centre Board Repeal Act Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I move, seconded bythe member for Fiin Flon {Mr. Storie), thatBill212, The Dauphin Memorial Community Centre Board Repeal Act {Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur le Conseil du Centre commemoratif de Dauphin), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Sargent Park School eighty-six Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Robert Forrester. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington {Ms. Barrett). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Farmers Alfalfa Products Government Assistance Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, chair of the Economic Development Board of Cabinet. Mr. Speaker, in 19 91 , the Deputy Premier {Mr. Downey) annou nced that video lottery terminal reve nues would be used for initiatives to complement rural economic development.

Again, this last week, on April 22, 19 93, the Premier announced funds to be available from video lottery terminals, not all the funds as was first announced in 19 91 , but funds would be announced for rural economic development to provide for value-added jobs and to allow for business ventures to survive in rural communities. Mr. Speaker, on the weekend I had the honour of visiting the alfalfa plant in Dauphin.

The people in that community, the people who are working directly in the plant, the producers who produce the raw material and the people in the coffee shops in the Parkland region can not u nder stand why the government cannot find a way to provide leadership to bridge the tough economic situation the alfalfa plant is facing this crop year. I would like to ask the Premier: Of all the announcements they have made to support rural economic development, is there not a way to help the alfalfa plant in Dauphin and the producers of alfalfa in that community?

It is one of the largest private employers in that community. It produces economic benefit of some $800,000 per year to that Parkland region. Can the Premier not find a way, with all these progr ams, to bridge this ver y challenging situation? * {1 340) Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premi er) : Mr. Speaker, without addressing, because it would take too long to correct all the inaccuracies within the

preamble of the question that the Leader of the Opposition put forward, I will say to him that even during the time of the government of which he was a part, they steadfastly took the position that oper ating expenses on behalf of businesses that were failing were not something any government could get into, that the operating side of the expenses of a business was the responsibility of that business with the commercial lenders-t he banks, the credit unions, the various financial institutions. They were the ones who had to take the responsibility for that.

We have statements on record by members of the Pawley administration that there was not enough money in government to do that, that there are businesses which get into d ifficulty day after day after day, that if government was to guarantee their operating line of credit or get into their operating expenditures, there just simply would not be enough money to go around. He is the first person, Mr. Speaker, to get up and talk about us supporting business and giving

2041 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 support to business. I can give him dozens and dozens of examples that come through week after week of people who say, there has been a change in my trucking business because of deregulation; I just need government to guarantee my line of credit for the next six months or a year or whatever. Mr. Speaker, it is not possible. No government in this country has taken on that kind of responsibility. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I guess last Thursday, people in the Parkland region and people across Manitoba thought there would be some helping hand from the video lottery terminal revenue that was reannounced by the Premier last week, some close to two years after the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) announced all money from video lottery termi nals would go back to ru ral economic development. I would refer the Deputy Premier to his original press release. That kind of nitpicking does not help the people in Dauphin and Parkland. The bottom line is, Mr. Speaker, they have been in business for 20 years.

They had a tough crop year last year. It is a business that takes raw products and value-adds them in Manitoba. It is one of the largest operations on the private side in the Dauphin-Parkland region. The producers themselves have pledged between $80,000 and $1 00,000 to keep this plant going. Is there not any way in this very difficult time to find a way to keep this plant going so we can have these jobs and these opportunities in Manitoba for another 20 years, rather than have them proceed to an auction which is scheduled on May 22? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, this is not nitpicking to say that the government can not take on the responsi bility of the oper ating expenses of companies that are in difficulty.

If the member opposite wants to have examples of it, examples that demonstrated to his own government when they were in office, he only needs to look at King Choy Foods, at the aircraft manufacturers, Saunders Aircraft, at all of those enterprises that the Schreyer government took on by virtue of, firstly, getting into loan guarantees just simply to gu arantee their operating lines of credit that ultimately resulted in them taking on the ownership and millions and millions of dollars of losses for the public of Manitoba.

It is one thing to put in investments from video iottery terminals for start-up costs; it is one thing for setting in place kinds of guarantee programs for the initial expenditures or for particular job-creating activities in the beginning. It is another thing to take on the responsibility for gu aranteeing their operating line of credit when they are in financial difficulty. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of firms in Manitoba that would make the same call tomorrow on the government of Manitoba. I can assure him of that, Mr. Speaker. • (1 345) Mr .

Do er: Successive gov ernme nts have attempted to try to work with private companies, co-operative companies, with producers to diversify our crops in western Canada. I think we were involved in the Carnation plant, as I recall, Mr. Speaker, to get Carnation located here for potato producers so that we could be exporting across the world in terms of that production--a very major investment. Now this, admittedly, by scale, is much smaller. Mr. Speaker, I do understand that 27 jobs that have been there for 20 years are in jeopardy right now for want of a loan guar antee from the provincial government.

I understand that 20 producers have signed $5,000 loan guarantees themselves to try to make this company operate. Is there not any way that the Premier and his government can find a way to bridge this difficult situation based on the last year's very, very moist crop situation and poor grade of product, so that we can see these vital jobs maintained in Manitoba and primary produce value-added with the kind of operation we see in the alfalfa plant? Is there not any way through this to provide some leadership to keep these jobs going for another 20 years in Manitoba? They paid taxes for 20 years.

We need these people and these jobs in this province. Mr. Almon: Mr. Speaker, if this is indeed just a short-term problem, banks and financial institutions evaluate that. They do not want to go and lose their equity in a company, their loans, their operating lines of credit. They do not want to lose that. If they saw an opportunity for getting out of it, then they would be the first ones to say, okay, your pro forma statement says that within six months or nine months or a year, you will be out of this, and they exercise that kind of logical analysis.

They are not in the business of wanting to lose whatever share of money they have in it. The fact of the matter is-1 repeat for him-th at this is the kind of thing that has been looked at by previous

April 26, 1993 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 2042 gov ernmen ts, including New Dem ocra tic governments. If you were to go and guarantee the operating line of credit for every business that, because of some change in market or climate or anything else, got into difficulty, you would have hundreds on your doorstep tomorrow. You would have printing companies, trucking companies, all sorts of companies that are in this time of difficulty, Mr. Speaker, there saying it is the government's responsibility.

I can gu arantee him that I have had cont acts from many, many businesses in many different fields who ask for the same thing. Personal Care Homes Rate Structure Ms.JudyWasylycla- Lels (St.Johns): I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Seniors some ques tions about a gr owing concern being expr essed by many people in this province, particularly the senior citizens of Manitoba who are currently in personal care homes and are very worried about the increases in rates they are facing. This concern has been exacerbated by the lack of information from the government itself.

In fact, the gove rnme nt has made matters worse by repealing the regulation covering payments under The Health Services Insurance Act. I would like to ask the minister: When will this government be releasing the regulations which outline the changes to the rate structure for personal care homes in this province? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr.

Spea ker, ho w we have been handling the concerns that have come forward, we have asked the people to bring their examples until those regulations come forward, and the minister responsible in Health has expressed in questions in the House that he will be getting to the regulations shortly. Ms. Wasylycla- Lels: Mr. Speaker, to help the minister do his job in terms of speaking up for seniors, I will table a letter that went to all personal care home residents, dated April 6, from the Assistant Deputy Minister of Health indicating rate increases for personal care homes as high as 74 percent.

I want to ask the Minister responsible for Seniors if he can tell us today how many people will be affected by this government's changes to the rate structure. How many people will have to pay the maximum, and how many will see their fees increase and by much? Mr. Ducharme: I do not have to be lectured by that member across the way on seniors issues. Mr.

Speaker, the people involved are based on the ability to pay, and as expressed to the member just in my first response, the minister responsible for Health will be getting those regu lations through, and those questions will be answered by that minister. * (1 350) Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about senior citizens who have worked all their Iivas- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. I remind the honourable member for St. Johns, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member, with her question, please. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: I would like the minister to give some information to us and to the seniors in this province. Specifically, what definition of income will be used in determining the level at which personal care home residents will be billed? Will family income be taken into consideration? How is the income level derived? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speak er, as expressed in my two previous responses, the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) will have those regulations available to the public, and any inquiries that we are getting through our Senior s secretariat, we are taking down exam pies that they have laid out to us, and we carry them forward and get them back to those individual people. So someone who has some questions in regard to personal care and is at that standstill right now, we ask them to phone our Seniors office, and we will get back to them on what the costs are on May 1 . Endangered Spaces Manitoba Protection Record Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

The minister was one of the first signatories to the Endangered Spaces Campaign administered by the World Wildlife Fund whereby 12 percent of the land from representative areas was to be set aside and preserved in its natural state. With much fanfare , this minister signed on in September of 19 90 and very quickly proved himself worthy of a D grade from

2043 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 the World Wildlife Fund with the notation, unfulfilled expectations. Mr. Speaker, Endangered Spaces has now produced a map and sent it to the minister last week, which shows that he is in line for another D or worse. My question for the minister: Why has this minister, after two and a half years of this program, of having signed on to it, only adequately protected 2 percent of Manitoba's land mass which is one- sixth of what he was supposed to protect and said he would? Hon. Ha rry Enn s (Min ister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, the honour able member and I think all members ought to be aware that the designation of land, particularly under this designation, to be set aside for all time, is a very serious business. We have in the course of these two years undertaken extensive public hearings under the Natural Lands Strategy sponsored by the round table that asked Manitobans throughout the province about their thoughts and views on this and other sub jects. Mr.

Speaker, I am also well aware that when I signed that document committing this government to the principles of the Endangered Spaces Program it was, in fact, a goal to be achieved by the year 2000. I am satisfied that, very shortly, with the introduction of new park lands legislation into this Legislature and other initiatives, we will demonstrate to the satisfaction of certainly those who are watching the province on this regard, that we are prepared to keep our commitments. Government Initiatives Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, the minister says he needs more time.

My question for the minister: Why, when he got his report card last year, did he tie for second-last place? He tied with Alberta which was not even committed, which had not even signed on to this. The rest of the country is doing far better and far more than this minister. My question for the minister, Mr. Speaker, is: Between now and when the next report card comes out in Septe mber, what is this minister going to do to warrant a better mark than second-l ast place in this country, aD ? Hon. Ha rry Enns (Min iste r of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speake r, I am prepared to operate within the principles of the Endangered Spaces Program and set aside and designate very substantial acres of land in the province of Manitoba to the Endangered Spaces Program. Provincial Parks Protection Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, my final question for the minister: Will the minister commit today to giving his words in his press conferences some credibility, by putting some protection into the meaning of a park or a wildlife mana gemen t area, given th at curr ently of Manitoba's nine provincial parks, all but one allow logging and the design ation of a wildl ife management area effe ctively excludes nothing because this minister has given himself an override for any use on any land? Hon. Ha rry Enns (M in ister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I woul d invite the honourable member to await the introduction of new park lands legislation into this Legislature. That would be the appropriate time to debate these issues. Asslnlbolne River Diversion Clean Environment Commission Hearings Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the Clean Environment Commission hearing dates have been set for June 14 to 30 on the Assiniboine Diversion.

We were shocked to see that none of the dates are in Winnipeg and in fact there are no sites downstream of the Assiniboine Diversion set for Clean Environment Commission hearings even though, logically, the downstream effects are going to be some of the most important effects to study. Can the Minister of Environment confirm that these dates have been set and that there are no downstream sites for the Assinboine Diversion project Clean Environment hearings? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, in setting the dates, the commission looked at the various areas where both proponents and opponents would have an opportunity and a good logical setting for them to appear and make their feelings known. While very often we have meetings in the city of Winnipeg and expect rural Manitobans to drive in, this is one of those situations where largely the interest that has been expressed up to this point, both opposition and in favour of the project, is largely centred in the Portage Ia Prairie

April 26, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 2044 and up to the Shell mouth area, and it seemed like a reasonable compromise that the commission recommended. * (1 355) Ms. Cerll ll: Mr. Speaker, does the minister have any environmental explanation or rationale for not having downstream communities sited? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I answered this same question last week from the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) about asking for additional sites for the hearings.

I suggested to him, as I would sugges t to this member, that if there are significant interests that are expressed and concerns that cannot be answered by the present format, then I hope the public will let the commission know. Frankly, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the locations are all within a very short driving range of those who have expressed interest and concern, and we have acce pted the comm ission's recommendation. Addendum Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the City of Winnipeg Council passed a resolution on behalf of all the citizens of Winnipeg- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

This is not a time for debate. Ms. Cerllll: Does the minister have a legal opinion on the addendum proposed for the Assiniboine Diversion so that we can be assured that these hearings are not for a project that is illegal because it is changing the project in the middle of the environmental assessment? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, the staff who are reviewing the proposals have been very conscious of the fact that there was an addendum brought in in the middle of the setting of the guidelines, and they have been very conscious about making sure that the public was made aware of this and that they had an opportunity and will have continuing opportunity to comment on it. I am quite concerned that the member would sugges t that there has been, in any way, an attempt to cut off debate or a lack of encouragement for people to attend at the hearings.

I suggest if there are others out there who concur with her, they should let the commission know. Autopac Auto Repair Estimates Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a ques tion for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Mr. Speaker, there is evidence that runaway costs have led to exorbitant premium increases under this government, and I now have evidence on Autopac repair assessments being substantially higher than estimates of autobody shops.

A citizen came to me with five written estimates on a 19 89 Toyota Camry which received damage to front and rear doors and the rear bumper. These estimates range from-the cheapest was $353 and up to $51 0.72; the next was $605.34; $776.29, and the high es t private auto body estimate was $1 ,105.44. He then went to Autopac, and they gave him an estimate of $1 ,449. 16 . That is over $300 higher than the highest private estimate and four times higher than the lowest- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The honourable member for Brandon East, put his question, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Speaker, members opposite may be impatient, but we have to put the information on the record. Mr. Speaker: You did. Order, please. Put your question, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: This gentleman is very upset, and my question to the minister is: Why is there such a dramatic difference between the private estimates and the Autopac estimates? Hon . Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istrati on of Th e Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I hope he intends to table that information so it can be reviewed in detail.

Secondly, ! presume that the member is unaware that in terms of the cost of repairing the autobody repair side as compared to the cost of repairing the human bodies in damage that occurred, the autobody repair side, the tin and the plastic, the cost of increases there in the last three years have been and are running at or below the rate of inflation. I would presume that the member has researched this and found out that Manitoba's autobody rates that the corporation pays are certainly well within the same rates that are paid across western Canada.

2045 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 Mr. Leonard Evans: I have another question of the minister. I would ask the minister if he would undertake an investigation of the methods and procedures now being used by Autopac with a view to stopping what appears to be an overly gener ous estimating procedure by Autopac, because another citizen came with the same story, $375 for the private and $524 for Autopac. * (1 400) Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvious that it has been some time since the member has been reviewing some of the work that is associated with autobody repair.

I will be glad to invest some considerable amount of time in providing answers and the details he is asking for, but I should remind you that it is very interesting that I get a lot of letters in my office asking us why we are using recycled parts. People out there are of two minds when they have their vehicles damaged, whether or not it should be repaired to the absolute new condition or whether the cost-sav ing practice of using recycled parts is allowed. I would be interested in that member's opinion. Mr. Leonard Evans: Incidentally, this gentleman went to the autobody shop that would do it for $600- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Le onar d Ev ans: Will this mini ster acknowledge that there appears to be a two-price system that has developed, one through Autopac estimation and one through private autobody shop estimates? Will he take action now to stop what appears to be a rip-off situation? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I asked the member to table that information. I presume he will. That will be appropriately investigated and answered.

I would remind the member that it was since this government came into office that we moved to elimin ate the rebating for replacement of windshields, which he thought was okay when he was in office. Stubble Burning Enforcement Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment. On April 15 the minister, along with the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), issued a statement and a policy with regard to stubble burning.

I asked the question to the minister on Friday, because I had noticed some fires coming back from Dauphin on the previous evening, and I got the following response from the Mi nister of Environment. He said: "If there were complaints that were registered, we would respond to them.ft That sounded like a very positive statement about what the Department of Environment was prepared to do.

Several hours later, as I was driving in my vehicle to the lake, I listened to an interview conducted by Jim Rae with Carl Orcutt, the ADM of the Environmen tal Operations Division, who responded to a question that there was no enforc ement policy in the department with respect to stubble burning. Now, what are the citizens of this province to believe-the minister who says that they will respond or the assistant deputy minister who says they do not have a policy? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, ! presume that my comment will be the one that will be correct. Mr.

Spea ker, the Lea der of the Second Opposition referenced the fact that she saw some fires that were burning two hours after dark. I would ask, did she turn in a report? She did not. Secondly, the only call that I have had in my office was from a person who said they saw a fire, and they were given the number to call. They said, well, it is no problem, and they hung up. So, if there are concerns out there, the response will be available from the department. The time of year in which we are presently living is when we are basically allowing daytime burning unrestricted.

We have the power that if that burning is being done in such a way that it is causing difficulties for an urban area or fires are left uncontrolled after dark, we have the authority to deal with them and we will. I really am concerned why the member is not supporting this policy. It would seem to me that this is the kind of approach that goes beyond the approach that the Liberal Party ever asked for. 24-Hour Response Line Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I just want the policy enforced. The minister says I did not report it.

Well, I thought I reported it to the highest authority, the minister himself, at the earliest possible opportunity. But, just to make sure that it was done properly, I

_, April 26, 1993 LEGIS LATIVE AS SEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2046 looked up in my directory. I could not find the 24-hour response line, so I phoned information, 221 1, and I was referred to 501 7. That, I was told, was a wrong number, so then I was referred to 81 32 . I was then told that was not the right number. Then I called Mr. Orcutt's office, and I was told there would be no such number until September. Can the minister tell the House today, what is the 24-hour response line that I am supposed to call to report? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, I would be interested to know the question that the member put to the people on the other end of the line. If she asked if this was an emergency line for stubble burning, the fact< is, that line, the 1- 800 line is to be established in the fall. If she has a complaint about a specific fire that is out of control, then all she needs to do is say so when she is on that line. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, I was just following the minister's advice. On Friday the minister said, we have a 24-hour response line at the department.

So we called all of these numbers to find out just what was the 24-hou r response line. That is what we wanted to know. Can the minister stand in the House and tell me, as well as all the other citizens of the province of Manitoba, what is the number? [laughter] Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, while this elicits some laughter on our side, this is a serious situation, because she is misrepresenting the information that I ga ve her. She als o misrepr esen ted the information that she was receiving. Mr.

Speaker, the 1- 800 line for responses to stubble burning complaints will be in position to deal with the controlled period, which is starting the 1s t of August this fall. If they have a problem with a fire that is out of control today, call the 24-hour line that is in existence, but do not phone them and ask them if they are the stubble response line-dumb. Aboriginal Farmers Government Assistance Ms. Rosann Wow chuk (Swan Riv er) : Mr. Speaker, I have questions for the Minister of Agriculture about several farm groups.

The Minister of Agriculture on Friday indicated that he did not have any interest or responsibility for the aboriginal farmers who are not able to get operating loans this spring, through no fault of their own. However, they are Manitoba farmers. Has the minister lobbied the federal government, or has he made contact with the Department of Indian Affairs or the Department of Industry, Science and Technology to assure that the necessary loans are in place so that rice growers and the rice processors can operate this year? They are a vital part to Manitoba's agriculture. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I regret the member says I have no interest. That is absolutely wrong. It was never said. I wish she would apologize for that misrepresentation. I told her the process that is in place is federal money for funding aboriginal farmers. Aboriginal farmers, in addition to that, have access to all the existing plans and programs in the Department of Agriculture in the province of Manitoba. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I assume from that answer I received, the minister is saying that aboriginal people can go to MACC for loans. Sugar Beet Industry Future Status Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I want to ask the minister about another group of farmers. Has he made any decision, or has he taken any action on the sugar beet farmers who are waiting for his decision on an agreement? Can he tell us whether the workers at the sugar beet plant will be working this year, or is that something else that he does not care about- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. * (141 0) Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): That member knows so little, she thinks she has all the answers.

I have had in the vicinity of a dozen meetings on this issue with the company, with the Alberta government, with the federal government, with the growers in Manitoba, with the growers in Alberta. Our offer is very clearly on the table, I will tell the member. She knows that very clearly. It has been on the table for some time. It is an increase in the expenditure in my department for stabilization from $375,000 to $626,000 involving Agriculture and Industry, Trade

2047 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 and Tourism. That offer is on the table. The federal government has made an offer in Alberta. I would assume they will match it here in Manitoba, and nobody has seen fit yet to accept that offer. Ms. Wowchuk: But, Mr. Speaker, the Alberta government has signed an agreement- Mr. Speak er: Orde r, please. I re mind the honourable member for Swan River, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member, kindly put your question now, please. Alfalfa Industry Interlake Plant Ms . Rosann Wowc huk (Swan Riv er) : Mr.

Speaker, ! want to ask the Minister of Agriculture, if this government is not prepared to support the alfalfa plant in Dauphin where they have the expertise and they have established markets and people who are prepared to support the industry, can he tell us why his government is encouraging the people in the Interlake area to proceed with an alfalfa plant? If there is no work- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the alfalfa industry has been developing in Manitoba over many years.

Last year we sent a mission to places like Japan. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): It really helped. Mr. Findlay: The member for Dauphin does not care that we are trying to help the alfalfa producers in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we sent the mission to Japan involving two individuals from the Interlake who are investigating the possibility of setting up dehyd plants. I will tell the member there is a very good market in Japan for high- quality alfalfa, long-fibred, cubed instead of pelleted.

Those people went over and investigated that market opportunity and are continuing to explore it and looking towards making their investment. There are many, many companies in the province of Manitoba presently in the alfalfa business, and many looking at getting into it. I would remind the member that it is very complex. It requires very high quality, but the market is out there and we are working with the growers across this province in order to be able to access the opportunity. Seven Oaks Concerned Community Rally Government Representation Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, this evening at 7 p.m ., the Seven Oaks Concerned Community, con sisting of parents, teachers, employee groups, daycare workers and children, and others are staging a rally at the Legislature to protest the governme nt's insensitivity towards education and programs for children. They have asked the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), and the Premier to explain themselves to those assem bled and yet have receiv ed no response from this government.

I want to ask the Premier to indicate who from his government will be explaining the governme nt's policies to those assembled, those concerned people at the Legislature tonight? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this administration has, through the course of the Budget Debate, put on the record a great deal of information and all the various rationale and thought that went into the budget, the priority choices, the difficult circumstances we face, have all been aired very publicly. I am sur e that most Man itobans who are interested are well aware of it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Plohman: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in light of the fact that the Premier played ostrich when 4,000 people came out to the Legislature in a rally to protest his cuts, will he now ensure that there is someone from his government at the rally tonight to explain to those concerned people precisely what the reasons are for the cuts that he has made to children in this province? Mr. Almon: Mr. Speaker, the member knows full well that he has with him the luxury of irresponsibility of being in opposition, and fomenting these kinds of demonstrations and encouraging all this.

The fact of the matter is that reductions in expenditure are taking place in every administration across the country, including New Democratic administrations, to a much greater extent in some other provinces. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, that does not provide the answers. If the Pr emier is so sure that he is doing the right thing and he can explain it, why will he not go out on the steps and meet the people and explain the actions of his government face to face?

April 26, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2048 Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, being in government is about responsibility and taking serious actions. It is not about political grandstanding that the New Democrats like to participate in. The political grandstanding will gain them exactly what they deserve. Universities Impact of Workweek Reduction Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

I wanted to ask the minister: Has her ministry or the government conducted any inquiries into the potential impact of its reduced workweek on the quality of education at Manitoba's universities? Could she tell the House what the result of those inquiries are? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speake r, we did ask the universities to look at a version of the workweek reduction and sugges ted to them that some of the time that might be used at the university level was the time of the Christmas holidays. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister confirm then that under the proposed cutback plans of the University of Manitoba there will clearly be lost laboratory days, possibly up to a week, and that this will have an impact on accreditation and upon the quality of education? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again, there are a number of optional time periods in which the university may like to look atthe workweek reduction and what the member is now saying in the House.

I think she should look at not,fiecessarily putting that information on the record unless 'She is absolutely sure that is what has been put forward, because there are a number of other options which are available to the universities. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, could the minister then undertake to review the universities' plans with the universities in order to ensure that the quality of education and the qua ntity of edu cation at Manitoba's universities is not undermined? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, again, the quality of education within our universities is of great concern and of interest to this government, and we have in fact commissioned the Roblin commission to look at university edu cation in this province and the un iversities. I have spoken about a possible application of the workwee� reduction, but in every case, this government has said that where it is applied we should make sure that the quality of education is the first and foremost importance as it is applied. Budget Manitoba Mineral Resources Reserves Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr.

Speaker, when Manitobans started reviewing the budget document tabled by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), I think they became concerned about fudging of the figures. Another example of that is the decision by the government to raid Manitoba Mineral Resources to the tune of some $1 6 million and include that as government revenue so that the government would look good by reducing their deficit on a one-time basis some $1 6 million.

My question to the minister responsible for Manitoba Mineral Resources is: Was there any discussion with the mining companies, the mining communities, the board of directors of Manitoba Mineral Resources, about the potential impact of taking some $1 6 million out of the reserves of the Manitoba Mineral Resources on the corporation and potentially on the communities which are involved on a joint venture basis with MMR? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, the question, I believe, specifically is raised as to whether there were discussions prior to the budget being brought down with the mining companies as it relates to that type of budget decision. I think the member should be well aware of the fact that those kinds of budgetary decisions are not communic ated extensively publicly. It is my understanding that there were discussions with the chairman of the board of MMR but not with the industry at large. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. *** Mr. Speaker : Order, please. I believ e the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans) wants to table his documents. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Yes, I would like to table the docu ments I referred to on the autobody estimates. * (1 420) �:::e��:��r�r:��- to thank th� honourable / /

2049 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Prazn lk (Deputy Govern ment House Leader): Mr. Speak er, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (C oncurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resu me consideration of the Estimates of Family Services. When the comm ittee las t sat, it had been considering item 1. (d)(1 ) on page 54 of the Estimates book. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to follow up on some of the questions that were asked by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) on the Social Services Advisory Committee. First of all, I wonder if the minister could give us the names of the current members-not necessarily now, but a list of the members. Hon.

Harold Gllle shammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, I can give you those nam es: Caro line Sopuck, Judy Slaughter, Elsie Janzen, Orma Graham, Arlene Crabbe, Natalie Dobrowolski, Mamie Skastfeld, Nadia Davage, Clare De'Athe, Penny Fraser, Josie Lucidi, Eileen Forsyth, Tara Brousseau, Hal Sveistrup. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us if any of those people are social assistance recipients? * (1 430) Mr. Gllle shammer: I do not believe they are. Mr.

Martindale: Would the min ister gi ve consideration in the future, when there is opportunity to make an appointment, to appointing someone who is a social assistance recipient or perhaps someone who has experience working for an organization that provides service to recipients, particularly a nongovernment organization such as the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization? Mr. Glllesha mmer: I would say to the member that I think government is always looking for good people to appoint to boards and commissions. I know one of the member's seatmates was very active in this area before.

I am sure she would tell you the same thing, that it is incumbent on government to have a broad cross

section of people serving on advisory boards and committees and commissions, and government is always looking for members who will make a valuable contribution. Mr. Martindale: So I take it, the minister would at least be open to appointing a social assistance recipient. Mr. Gll leshammer: I guess one of the things is, I would have to check with the legal department of government to see whether there is any perceived conflict in doing so. Other than that, my answer stands that government is always open to finding citizens of the province who can make a valuable contribution to boards and commissions. Mr.

Martindale: Thank you for that offer. If the minister does consult with the legal department, I would be interested in knowing the answer. Were these people, for the most part, appointed at the same time, under the same Order-in-Council? If so, were they provided training before they started sitting as panelists? If so, what kind of training and for how long and how much training? Mr. Gll leshammer: The answer to the fir st question is no. The answer to the second question is yes, that training is provided.

There is a basic orientation given to board members as they come on board and the orientation is ongoing as they learn their responsibilities. Mr. Martindale: My concern is that since this is a very important board, I think there should be training or that people shoul d be recru ited who are knowledgeable in this area or who have experience on other boards or commissions. Now I think there is an inherent problem here, and that is that this is not a high-pr ofile board. It may be difficult in fact to recruit people for it.

April 26, 1993 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2050 We are not talking about the board of Manitoba Hydro. We are not talking about a board where the per diem rates are high. We are talking about a board where the per diem rates are quite modest. I think that is a bit of a problem because it seems to me that, because of that, the panelists are very open to being influenced by the staff on the panel. Of particular concern then is who the chairperson is of the appeal panel, although I suppose, since they are sitting in panels of three, at each meeting, one person must act as chair.

My understanding is that with many gove rnment boards and commissions, the chairperson is often a lawyer or someone who has previous experience being chair of a board or commission. Can you tell me if any of the people on this panel are lawyers or have had previous experience chairing boards or commissions? Mr. Gll leshammer: I am not absolutely sure if any of them have had experience as a lawyer, but as far as chairing other organizations, the answer is yes. Some of them have had that experience.

Again, with boards and commissions that government is responsible for, I think by and large you are looking for a cross-section of Manitobans to serve in some capacity. The member references the fact that on some, what he calls, high-pr ofile boards, you need specific types of individuals. I presume lawyers is what he is referring to. I would hope that does not become a prerequisite for people to serve government on boards. I think, as I indicated in my first answer, gov ernm ent is alwa ys looking for a broad cross-s ection of Manitobans who are prepared to serve on these boards across all departments.

My experience, since I have been involved as an MLA, is that there are hundreds and hundreds of people who accept these appointments for a period of time, and by and large they work well. I will concede that there are specific boards that call for specific criteria and backgrounds, and I am sure those things are taken into consideration. Mr. Martindale: I think it would be helpful if at least one panelist was a lawyer, since the decisions that are being made are very critical to the recipients, and therefore, I think legal training would be helpful.

I would assume that some of the decisions that are made become precedents. I know that only matters of law can be appealed to the courts, so I think legal training would be helpful. Also, it seems that there is a very low rate of success. If one looks at the statistics that were provided on Thursday-! am just going by memory, but I think there was a very small percentage of something like, was it 65 successful appellants out of over a thousand? So a very small number are successfu l. If it is in order, I would like to ask a question about the notice given to people saying that they can appeal.

This may more properly fall under Income Security, but they are appealing to the Social Services Advisory Committee, so if the minister will accept a couple of questions on that. I had occasion to help one of my constituents who received a notice saying that she was cut off provincial social assistance, and there was no date on the notice. Can the minister tell us if that is standard practice or if this was an anomaly? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, in refe rence to the first part of the memb er 's comments, the board does have legal advice available, that if they should require the services of a lawyer, that is at their disposal. On the question of notice, my understanding is that the normal way of doing business is to have a date on the letter, and I believe they have 15 days in which to launch an appeal if they so wish. That is 15 calendar days. Mr. Martindale: So the fact that there was not a date on this particular letter was an exception, not the rule. Mr.

Gilles hammer: Yes, that was an error, and all of the information, as the member, I am sure,. is aware, that is sent out should have a date on it. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that notice requirements are to be in writing and give reasons for why people are being cut off, not just the date of termination. However, I understand that quite often what happens in fact is that people are contacted and told, we are holding your cheque; please come in, we would like to talk to you, or, we want you to do this and this.

Therefore, it is conditional whether or not they continue to get social assistance rather than legal. Either they are getting it or they are not. If they are not, then they should get a proper termination notice. Can the minister tell us if in fact that is the practice? If so, why is that happening? What are the circumstances which lead to that? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the individual circumstances of clients can change. If,

2051 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 in those circumstances, they no longer are eligible for particular benefits, then they of course have to be notified. I have said to the member before that if people qualify for social allowances and they come within our guidelines, we will be sure that they get fair treatment.

As far as notification, it is important that notification be in writing, and that the clients have an opportunity to fully understand what it is about their circumstances that no longer would qualify them for a certain level of assistance or whether they no longer are able to get assistance at all. I think it is important that individual clients do get reasons, and that the department does try to provide those reasons. Mr. Martindale: The minister says that it is important. My understan ding is that frequently appella nts do not find out the reasons until the date of the hearing, which seems quite unfair to me.

I would like the minister to comment on that, if it is correct. I would be happy to be informed that it is not correct, but I understand that occasionally or sometimes appellants do not find out the reasons until the hearing. Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the member has to appreciate that a good percentage of the clients also are part of the municipal system, where if they have some question about whether they should be accessing social allowances or whether they are dis conti nued, the actual administration, the actual work of dealing with that partic ular clien t, is done by one of 200 municipalities. Similarly, we have about 26,000 to 27,000 cases at the provincial level. The person who perhaps is having their benefits adjusted or having them terminated will be given, in writing, the reasons for that termination or that adjustment.

I would believe that it may be possible that written docum entation does not give an explanation in a way that may be acceptable to the client, and further discussion of that could well take place at the hearing. * (1 440) Mr. Martindale: Does the Social Services Advisory Committee have a procedural mar.ual or directive for appellants for them to consult so that they know what their rights are and how the appeal proceeds? I guess I am asking if they are given advice on the appeal procedures. Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes, there is a brochure. Mr. Martindale: Could I get a copy of the brochure? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Yes, we will provide that. Mr. Martindale: Thank you. I understand that there is also a medical review panel. Could the minister tell me what kinds of cases go to the medical review panel and how they are handled? Mr. Glll eshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is referring to provincial clients who are disabled and go on the provincial system. To qualify for that designation, clients are panelled and their circumstances are presented to a medical review panel consisting of a number of people, including a medical practiti oner, a doctor, the director of a district office and a counsellor. Mr.

Martindale: Can decisions of the medical review panel be appealed, and if so, to whom? Mr. Glll eshammer: The answer is yes. It can be appealed, and it is appealed to the Social Services Advisory Committee. Mr. Martindale: In the Activity Identification, it says that the Social Services Advisory Committee acts in an advisory capacity to the minister on matters of policy. Can the minister tell us if, in the last year, the Social Services Advisory Committee has raised policy issues with you, and if so, what kinds of issues and what response has the minister made to them? Mr.

Gll leshammer: The answer to that is yes that I have met with the chair of the committee on a numb er of occasions, and I have also met with the entire committee. On the previous day we had Estimates, I was able to go through a list, just half of it, mind you, of a numb er of the reforms that we have brought into the whole area of economic security of social allowances. The member could either read those in Hansard or if he likes I would be pleased to go through them again. You have them? Okay. Government calls on many groups in society for advice.

I have also had the opportunity to meet with the staff and the board from MAPO, from the SA COM and from WORD, and all of them have had an opportunity to provide government with input. Mr. Martindale: The minister said that he listed half of the initiatives. Are there other initiatives that the minister would like to discuss now?

April 26, 1993 LEG ISlA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2052 Mr. Gll leshammer: Well, if you would like to take the time, I just have to get my book here. I thank you for the opportu nity. We did discuss the annual increase in rates and the work that goes into rate setting. I just had the opportunity on Friday, and I would like to thank the member for the pair that he gave me to allow me to go to a conference with western colleagues, where we talked about rates, not only in the western provinces but across the country.

Rates, of course, are just one of the conside rations in the total pack age, and I am pleased the me mber is interested, because I think more and more you have to look at the total package of exemptions and benefits that go into this area. I did have a chance to spend a few minutes on the Income Assistance for the Disabled, which was a new program we started last year, and we have been able to enhance with about a 16 or 17 percent increase in that particular benefit.

We also talked about the introduction of the Supple mentary Benefit, and I certainly complimen ted the member for his support of government in that area. I know, from time to time, the member has some ideas on that that perhaps are kind of a moving target, but I remember at the time the endorsement that he gave to that particular benefit.

The exemption of a children's trust assets is one that does not apply to a lot of cases, but in June of 19 91 , an exemption of $25,000 was established for a children's trust assets held on behalf of a child 18 years of age resulting from some significant loss in the circumstances of the family of that child. The assistance for school supplies was announced in August of 19 91 , where dependent high scho ol stude nts of Social Al lowance households were provided an allowance of up to $80 for the purchase of school supplies.

I mention, too, the flow-through of the GST benefits that came from the federal government with the adoption of the GST, and again, it brings to mind all of those exem ptions that come from various levels of government and I know we used to all access the children's allowance for our children when they were in their younger years. One of the things I learned this past Friday was that Saskatchewan has never exempted family allowance and always made a deduction from social allowances in that province.

So one of the benefits, I suppose, about meeting with colleagues is that you hear more about their programs, and again, this is a changing dynamic in all provinces as they cope with their budgets, and again an issue that they have to deal with from time to time. • (1 450) Probably one of the changes that had the biggest impact on some recipients is the increase in the liquid asset exemption levels, and I know the member is very supportive of that. The previous government, of course, did not see fit to make that change and the level was at $400 for a person and $2,000 for a fam ily.

This was dr ama tically increased for disabled people. It went up to $2,000 for the first perso n; for nondisabled it became $1 ,000. For the second person, disabled, it was an additional $1 ,000, and for nondisabled, another additional $1 ,000. Each additional dependent was $500, and new family maximums in the disabled commu nity rose to $4,000.

In the nondisabled, it rose to $3,000, and this allowed a tremendous amount of flexibility with those families to retai n some of their income whether it was exempted income from government or from other sources or perhaps money they accessed through part-time work or savings that they were able to accumulate for whatever reason. So that was a significant change. Another change was the head-of-household policy. Provincial social allowances el igibi lity guidelines have been changed to eliminate gender discrimination in that area.

Effective September 1, 1 992, couples applying for assistance can now have their eligibili ty based on either ad ult in the household. I noticed the member praised that move at this time, and I know he has in the past. I appreciate his consistency there. This is an issue that had been around for decades that governments knew about and chose not to make the change, and I appreciate it does take time to change the regulations and look at the impact that they have.

Another reform has been the mu nicip al assistance re gula tion wher e the 200-odd municipalities within the province that had rates that truly were different from one municipality to another, where access to social allowances varied from one jurisdiction to another, through the passage of legislation last year we were able to move to a common rate and a common eligibility. We also have made some changes in wheelchair transportation for social reasons. This policy was

2053 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 changed Nov ember 1, 19 92 , to allo w some inc reased flexibili ty in the use of wheelchair transp ortat ion. The allo cation of two trips per months using private transportation has now been changed to provide for 24 preauthorized trips per year which can be used atthe discretion of the client.

I can tell you that many of the members of the WORD organization, whom I met with on a numb er of occasions, have been very pleased with this change, so that they can now more fully determine some of their travel, and as you can well expect, they may choose to use more of that in the winter months than in times of the year when they can get around a little better on their own. Perhaps the fina l one I will mention is the extension of health benefits to clients who are leaving the system. This is one that one of the other provinces is currently looking at. I think maybe it is British Columbia.

Again, it is too early to provide any data on this particular initiative to say whether it has been a tremendous impact or whether there has been just a m oderate impact. We will be monitoring that, but on January 1 of this year, Social Allowances Health Services benefits to sole support parents and disabled clients who leave the program due to employment are extended for a period of up to one year.

So these are reforms that have come into the system basically in the last two years, and again I certainly thank all of the people who have brought information forward to government to allow us to better understand the issues and to allow us to make these changes. Mr. Martindale: Those changes are a very interesting list, and I am familiar with most of them from previous announcemen ts and press releases. I wonder if the minister could tell us if he has discussed with the Social Services Advisory Committee the nume rous recommendations that he has received, for example, in correspondence from the staff at St.

Matthews-Maryland Commu nity Ministry in briefs from the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization. In the Un ited Chur ch brief to gove rnment committee, for example, I kno w that numerous groups have talked about the earnings exemption or work incentive. I am wondering if any changes have been considered there and, if so, what the minister decided and why. Mr. Gll leshammer: All of the groups the member has mentioned have brought information and ideas before government which are currently being considered.

Specific ally, the work incent ive is something that I am very much interested in, and the member may be aware that there are pilot projects that are currently underway in New Brunswick and British Columbia which are looking at new ways to get people back into the workforce. I look forward to a meeting early this summer whereby those provinces will be represented, and hopefully the federal government, to discuss this whole issue of work incentives and having people transition back into the workforce.

As I said the other day, and I am not sure the member read it, when you look at the comments made by Premier Bob Rae in talking about the case load growth in Ontario, when you listen and see the reports and comments made by my colleague in British Columbia where she has said that the system is nearly ready to colla pse because of the tremendous growth rate, when you read what the new President of the United States, President Bill Clinton, is saying, I think there is a climate across North American to say, we need some new thinking on this whole area of flowing dollar s to recipients who are able to access jobs .

I know last year with the City of Winnipeg we entered into a small pilot project on the Dutch elm dis ea se whereby we flo wed someth ing lik e $375,000, and there were some funds from the city and from the federal government to put people back to work from the city caseload. Some of those would later access unemp loyment insurance; some perhaps would learn skills which would take them into the job market. I think it is fair to say that every government in North America is looking at new and different ways of getting people back into the workforce. Mr.

Martindale: Those rema rk s are very interesting, because I think what your government is doing is moving in the opposite direction of flowing funds to clients who can access jobs. For example, last year the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk was closed. This year the centre in Dauphin is being closed. The changes to child care are going to force people to lose their spot in child care and then out of the workforce or out of education. I just had someone come to see me today, someone who was

_, April 26, 1993 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2054 on social assistance, a single parent who went back to school and finished school, took computer training, got a job, was laid off and now has two weeks instead of eight weeks to find employment. She is making a very good effort to find a job. She was at five places this morning with her resume, and she has been to Canada Employment. They agree with her that two weeks is very unrealistic in terms of the time period to find employment.

So although the minister talks about flowing money to clients who can access jobs, I think many of your policies are going in the opposite direction. I would like you to explain to us how you think that it is encouraging clients to get jobs when you are cutti ng off ed ucational opportunities through eliminating the student social assistance J')rogram by reducing the number of weeks that people can search for work and keep their child care place. How does the minister rationalize or justify these as decisions which encourage people to access jobs? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I just indicated to the member earlier that the tremendous impact of caseload growth in provinces such as Ontario and B.C. and caseload growth here in Manitoba, although not as large, does have an effect on our ability to maintain some of the programming that has historically been there. * (1 500) The member references the human resource centres. These now have been transferred to the Department of Education, but I do not mind spending a minute talking about them. In some cases, that training is available nearby.

In other cases, the Department of Education will be making provision for training through another delivery system . The child care funding, again, I have said to the member that our expenses there last year were in excess of $50 million. I know, talking to the minister from Saskatchewan, where their budget is around $1 3 million, our commitment is very strong. We overspent our budget last year by some $5 million, and we have had to take some steps in this current budget year to address the overexpenditures. Our printed line for daycare is still in excess of what our print was last year.

So we will be dedicating, through the budget process, additional funding for child care. I can tell you, in meeting with my colleagues, it is well recognized that Manitoba has the highest standards for child care in the world, and Manitoba relatively spends more on child care than most other jurisdictions in North America. Having said that, we are not able to completely meet the demand that is out there, but that is the case with a lot of progr amming that we are responsible for. We will, through our daycare staff, make the best efforts we can to accommodate ind ividuals who need daycare .

We have an additional 3,000 spaces today, on this ann iversary of our election in 1 988, a tremendous increase in the number of licensed spaces that are available. In addition, we have many thousands more individuals who are accessing subsidies. Those subsidies go to those people who most need that support. The memb er referenced the student social allowances program. Again, unfortunate ly, this was one of the decisions we had to make in spending less in this department. It is a program that existed nowhere else in Canada. At this time, we simply were not able to proceed with it.

There are solutions for some of those students that they will find. I realize it does place a bit of a hardship on some but there are programs that are there to assist them. I say when we started talking about work incentives that there are experiments going on. We do allow our recipients to ret ain some of what they earn. If the member has suggestions in that area we would be pleased to hear them. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the minister if you have decided as a provincial government that you would like to participate in a program like B.C. or New Brunswick involving work incentives or whether you are still collecting information from those provinces. Secondly, is it not correct that this is cost-shared 50-50 with the federal government under CAP? I will let you answer those two first. Mr. Gll leshammer: The experiments in B.C. and New Brunswick are not shared under CAP, but there are federal fu nds under Em ployment and Immigr ation which are being put into those provinces.

We are in contact at the officials level with other governments and if we are able to access programs that make sense for Manitoba, we would certainly be interested in further discussions to move in that direction. Mr. Martindale: Is your government interested in taking part or is it conditional on being able to access the federal government money? Mr. Gll leshammer: Well, our preference would be to have federal input into any programs here in

2055 LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 Manitoba. I told you earlier this is a very dynamic area where Premiers and Presidents are speaking out on their concern that government is unable to provide the funds fast enough for growing case loads in some areas of the country. If there are innovative ways and new thinking that can be applied to social allowance recipients who have the ability to work, we are certainly interested and at the officials level there are discussions that are taking place to try and get a better understanding of what is happening in other jurisdictions. Mr.

Martindale: I am not sure what the minister's position is now. I think it is conditional on getting federal funding. Going back to the minister's remarks on child care, I would agree that Manitoba has had the highest standards. I think the problem we are faced with now is that those standards are being eroded by this minister's decisions.

You know, the people who are phoning and writing us as opposition critics, and I hope they are writing to their government MLAs as well, are very, very concerned that they are going to lose their ability to go back to school in September, or they are going to not be able to find a job and take their children out of child care and they are going to be on social assistance. I mean, that was the predicament of the person who came to see me this morning, that she is afraid that she is going to fall back into social assistance. She was on social assistance. She had two children.

She used the adolescent parent program of Winnipeg School Division No. 1 to finish her high school and got further training in computers, got a work placement, was laid off, and now she has two weeks to find a job. She is very concerned that she is not going to get a job because it is not long enough for a job search, and she is going to be back on social assistance. In fact, I would suggest that it is going to cost the government more to support this single parent with two children on social assistance than to have children in subsidized child care. I am not positive about that.

I would like to sit down and actually figure it out first, but I think this minister and his government would rather see people working and in the paid workforce and paying taxes than staying home and collecting social assistance. So I would like the minister to try and justify this decision of reducing the number of weeks of child care that are subsidized in order to find a job from eight weeks to two. Mr. Glll eshammer: The member uses the past tense when he says that we had the highest standards in North America. That legislation has not been changed.

The standards of daycare in Manitoba remain exceedingly high, and we have also matched that with a tremendous input in the dollar resources that we have put into that program. As a result of demand, we are now in the position where we have to put some limits on that and, as a resu lt, have capped the licensing, frozen the licensing for daycare spaces. I would remind the member that this was a request last year from the daycare community which felt there were too many spaces coming on stream.

We unfroze that for a while and have again frozen it, but are looking at some new ideas in that area. * (1 51 0) We have also had to cap the subsidies, simply because we have to stay within a budget there. As a result, while good cases, I am sure, will come forward while the system is forced to pause, the alternative is to put millions more dollars into an already high Manitoba child care budget, and we simply do not have the ability to do that. Mr.

Martindale: My understanding is that there are people in the commun ity who want to be licensed and they meet the standards, but now, because of the capping, they will not get a licence. According to the Estimates, they can appeal a decision not to be given a licence to the Social Services Advisory Committee. What is going to happen if someone applies for a licence and they are tumed down and they appeal the decision? What will they be told are the reasons for being denied the licence? Mr. Gll leshammer: The freezing of the spaces, I told you we were looking at something there, but at the moment, they are frozen.

The appeal process is meant for people who felt that, for some reason, they did not get fair treatment from an application to access child care. If spaces are not available, centres cannot produce those spaces at this parti cu lar time, and it may be a qu estion of accessing that service at another day care if that one is full or going on a waiting list. Waiting lists are not a new situation in Manitoba. When we came to government in 198 8, there were lots of waiting lists to access daycare. We have addressed that by

April 26, 1993 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2056 making changes in the daycare system and now waiting lists are far less prevalent. Mr. Martindale: I have a similar question, and that is if someone applies for a subsidy and they are turned down, they have the right to appeal. If they appeal to the Social Services Advisory Committee, what will they be told? Mr. Gll leshammer: The Social Services Advisory Committee will have to weigh their arguments. If the licensing has been frozen and the subsidies have been capped, there simply is no additional money that we can put into the system.

In many parts of our department, we do have waiting lists, particularly in the Comm uni ty Living. The one statutory obligation we have is in the social allowanc�s area, where we have to meet that demand, but if spaces do not exist and if subsidies do not exist, then individuals will have to go on a waiting list. Mr. Martindale: The minister spoke about the student social allowances program earlier. What are these students going to do in September? We know that they can apply for city social assistance.

We also know that they will not be able to go to school because, if they are on city assistance, then they are considered employable and they must be available for work and looking for work. Is that scenario correct? Will these students be forced to drop out of school and look for work while they collect city assistance? Mr. Gllle shammer: There probably are a number of answers to that question. I have indicated in the case of some of those students they may be able to remain with their parents and access assistance there.

Some students will do what students have always done and that is to work part time and go to school part time. Municipalities in framing their by-laws may have with in those by-laws the opportunity for students to access some assistance and, at the same time, attend an educational institution on a part-time basis. If they are able to access work, then that work placemen t would support them. Mr. Martindale: How much does your department anticipate that they are going to save by offload ing this expense to the City of Winnipeg? Was that the primary reason why this was done?

It seems to me that this is another example of offload ing to another level of government that is going to save your government money. {Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Gll leshammer: Well, the member perhaps did not listen to my answer. I said there were a number of solutions to that. It will depend on what solution the recipient chooses to take. We have always had people who have worked part time and gone to school part time. I indicated that there will be some who have the opportunity to return home and live with fam ily.

I indicated municipalities will have some flexibility in framing by-laws which may allow for part-time education and still access some social allowances. Mr. Mar tindale: Under the fo rmer or soon-to-be-terminated student social allowances program , what were the eligibility requirements to be on the student social assistance program? Mr. Gllle shammer: The program was primarily there for people 18 years of age and over going to school on a full-time basis and making satisfactory progress. Mr.

Martindale: Is it not correct that people on city or municipal social assistance who are employable must be available for work and looking for work? Mr. Gll leshammer: What the member says is correct. I indicated that municipalities, in framing their by-laws, will have some latitude to have stude nts pur sue on a part-time basis some edu cation and at the same time have some assistance from the municipality, again depending on how they frame their by-law. Mr.

Martindale: I think we will have to revisit this when we get to Income Security so that I have some time to consult with people from the City of Winnipeg and see if we can verify what the minister is saying. Can the minister tell us how much money his department anticipates they will save as the result of eliminating this program? Mr. Gll leshammer: I would answer that by saying that the oudget line last year was $4.3 million, but it will depend on the solutions that are found by individuals who were accessing that program, some of whom will be graduating. Mr.

Martindale: So the minister does not have a precise figure on how much money you think you will save. Mr. Gll leshammer: Well, I am saying to you, it will be a portion of that amount. We will have to monitor

2057 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 it, and I would suspect a year from now we could give you a precise answer. Mr. Martindale: I would like to go back to some questions more specific to the Social Services Advisory Comm ittee. Could the minister tell us what changes there were in the number of appeals from the statistics that were given last Thursday in Estimates and the previous year? Were the number of appeals up or down? Were the number of successful appeals up or down?

What sort of changes were there from year to year? * (1 520) Mr.GII Ieshammer: There has been an increase in the number of appeals. We just have a partial numb er for '92-93. Until the end of December, there were 887, which would put us probably pretty close to being on target of the previous years where there were close to 1, 200 appeals. In 19 90-91 , there were around a thousand, so the number of appeals have increased, but then the number of cases have also increased. The number of appeals that have been successful do not show a great difference year over year. Mr.

Martindale: Do we have the specific numbers for '90-91 ? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member is asking for '90-91 . There were 973 cases; 66 of them were allowed; 333 were dismissed. The balance was disposed of by having them withdrawn, and that was 455. These are cases where a satisfactory explanation has been given after the appeal has been filed and close to 50 percent of them then are dealt with in that way. Mr. Martindale: What are some of the reasons given for appeals being withdrawn? Does this mean withdrawn by the client? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Yes, the client has withdrawn because in the interim has received a satisfactory explanation or found another way to address the situation. Some may have achieved employment, others may simply have moved, but basically it is people who have a satisfactory explanation. Mr. Martindale: I have some of the statistics for changes in caseload by Income Security division social allowances program. I assume that some people whose cases are closed appeal the decision so I guess we could discuss this now under Income Security. Do you have a preference? Mr. Gll leshammer: Whatever you like. Mr.

Martindale: Okay . I have the monthly caseload, and it says, reason for case closure by category. I have from May 23, '92, back to January 25, 19 91 . I would like to ask specifically about one category of people whose case file was closed, and that is disabled. If you look at the numbers, it is very consistent. For example, 55 cases were closed in June 199 2; previous month, 61 ; previous month, 56; previous month, 51 . All of these numbers are right on 50 or slightly over 50. The highest is about 64. The lowest I have here is 46. What it appears is that there may be some kind of informal quota.

I had better put that in the form of a question. I am wondering if people who are disabled, who normally are on provincial social assistance because they are disabled and unable to work, are routinely being cut off or their benefits discontinued so that they are forced to apply for city assistance, whether that is happening for a reason. There seems to be a pattern here. What is the reason for the pattern? Why these particular numbers? Mr. Gll leshammer: Your conclusion has no basis in fact. If you would like to table the documents that you are referring to, we will get you an explanation. Mr.

Martindale: I will table the documents because I am very interested in an answer, and perhaps at a future time during Estimates, the minister can come back to this and provide us with an explanation. Would the mini ster give conside ration to extending the length of the appeal period from 15 days to say 30 days? For example, the constituent who asked me for assistance brought me a letter that had no date, so I did not know when the person was cut off the benefits.

This individual did not have a telephone, so it was difficult for me to provide assistance other than relying on the individual to keep returning to my office. Rrst of all, does the minister think that the appeal period is too short, and if so, would you give consideration to extending the appeal period? Mr. Gll leshammer: In the almost three years that I have been here, nobody has raised that as an issue before , that I recall . The reason for the time period, in my mind, would be to see that recipients can get their situation adjudicated as quickly as possible.

If they require assistance, then assistance can be given in a timely fashion and those decisions rendered.

April 26, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2058 Again, I am prepared to talk to staff about that, and other stakeholders who may have an opinion, but I would think that it was weighted on behalf of the client so that they did not have to sit and wait for an entire month before their appeal is dealt with. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us the name of the manager or acting manager of the Social Services Advisory Committee and also the second person in command in that office? Mr.

Gll leshammer: The manager is here with us at the table today, Tim Herkert, and the person who is second in command there is Isabel Furtado. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Martindale: Well, I know Mr. Herkert, and it is a very good appointment. My concern is that people from the department are com ing into the Social Services Advisory Committee, and I am wondering if that means that they are as objective as they could be.

It may depend on the per son's background before they started working for the department, but I guess my concern is that they may feel that their job or their duty or obli gation is to defend the interests of the department or to defend the public purse because some of the decisions that are made may decrease the cost to the provincial government. So I am wondering on what basis the decision is made to appoint a manager and what the qualifications are that the minister is loo king for when he appoints that person. Mr.

Gll leshammer : Well, the member perhaps does not know that the civil service has a process by which positions are bull etined, then applications come in, interviews are held by a board, and decisions are made. So the selection of managers and others into civil service positions is always within the gui delines of the Civil Service Commission, thatthe process that has been in place for many, many years is followed. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am finished with my questions for this page. I would like to give the other critic an opportunity to ask questions. Mr.

Dep uty Chair per son: 1. (d)(1 ) Salar ies $1 1 7,700 -p ass;

(2) Other Expenditu res $1 49,600--pass. 1. (

e) Management Services

(1) Financial and Administrative Services (

a) Salaries $1 ,885,700. * (1 530) Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would like to get into a discussion of the fu nction of this department which is listed in the Detailed Estimates as administering the Social Allowances Health Services program. What aspect of that program remains? Mr. Gll leshammer: Tha t en tir e service st ill remains. There was some downsizing of it in terms of benefits being del ayed and some reduced benefits, but we still have a substantial budget in that area. Mrs. Carstalrs: Would the minister like to give us a detailed role now for this particular function?

The announcemen ts that we had were that dental and optical services were no longer to be provided. What is being provided fro m this department, from this

section of the department? Mr. Gll leshammer: There is $1 4.7 mi ll ion dedicated to optical, dental and pharmaceutical services to social allowance recipients. Mrs. Carstalrs: Who qualif ies for the optical, dental and pharmaceutical services provided by this department? Mr. Gllle shammer: Any clients who qualify for social allowances will get a health card which qual ifies them for op tic al , den tal and pharmaceutical.

There were some changes made to that program, which, I think, took some $3 million out of the program, but we are still going to be spending, to have an anticipated spending of $1 4.7 mill ion; of that, som e $1 1. 1 milli on on pharmaceuticals, a little less than $1 million on optical and almost $2.8 million on dental. Mrs.Carstalrs: Well, perhaps, I will make it easier. Exactly what were the $3-million cuts? Who has been taken off? Who is still there? Why were some taken off, some still remain? What was the basis of the decision making here? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I will give you some more detail on that. In the reduction to dental benefits, there was some elimination of restorative services for all adu lts on social assistance, and there were some limits put on restorative to other recipients. In dental and optical, there was a deferment of dental and optical benefits for the first three months for all new enrollmen ts and re-enrollments, and in the drug area it reduced the drug bene fits available to social assistance recipients, limiting them to those that were covered by Pharmacare.

2059 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 Mrs. Carstalrs: There has been a 20 percent reduction, approximately, of this program, and yet there is not a 20 percent reduction in this department in terms of personnel or anything else. If one sees this kind of cutout, if you are not going to be dealing with these people, why do we not see a similar reduction in the admin istrative costs? Mr. Gll leshammer: We did have a staff reduction of one in this area, but the amoun t of processing of paper for the 27,000 cases on the provincial system still remains.

If our experience is that the workload is reduced further because of this, then it will be a consideration to make those adjustments. Mrs. Carstalrs: Can the mi nister tell me, what is the average length of stay of a person on social assistance? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on the mu nicipal caseload, the recipients are now on the municip al social allowances longer than they were before. It is going upwards of a year. On the provincial caseload, we have long-term recipients in terms of the disabled, some of whom win be on for the remainder of their life.

With the single mothers, again, some of them will access jobs in short order; others stay on for longer periods of time. I do not have an average there, but part of the reason of giving the health card for a year to that group and the disabled was to make their transition into the workforce easier for them. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Can the minister tell us, if he does not have the average of length of time, and I realize that provincial people tend to be there long term, is it 20 percent who are on for less than three months, or 40 percent who are on for three months and would therefore never qualify for any of these benefits? * (1 540) Mr. Gll leshammer: The single parents, probably an average of about five years; the disabled, again, in many cases, for a lifetime. Mrs. Carstalrs: Well, the minister cannot have it qui te that way. He said people on mu nicipal assistance were on there up to a year.

Now he is telling me that single parents are on there for five years. Point of Order Mr. Gll leshammer: The single parents are part of the provincial caseload. Mr. Depu ty Chair per son : The hon our able minister did not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mrs. Carstalrs: The question then is exactly the same as it was before. You said that up to a year people were on mu nicipal assistance, and I am asking you: What is the percentage of those who would be on less than three months and therefore would never qual ify for this program? Mr.

Glll eshammer: I thought the member was asking of the provincial caseload, where we have the long-term clients. The length of stay for people on the municipal caseload is truly a moving target, as people access it when their Ul expires. They access it because they have been unable to find work. We are saying that the average stay for people on the mu nicipal rolls now is about a year, and this is an issue that municip alities bring up with us, that the definition of long-term is an issue at the mu nicipal level. When does a long-term recipient move from a mu nicipal level of assistance to the provincial?

Again, there is a paneling process that takes place to determine that. So we do not have an average of how many access the system and stay less than three months. There has been no need to compile that in the past, but we will gain some experience in this current year and be able to give you an answer to that. Mrs. Carstalrs: If you have no information of that type, what was the decision and what were the factors in the decision to say that people should not get any of these benefits for three months? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Clearly, the decision is a budgetary decision to allow us to spend less money in that area, but it is also consistent with people who access the civil service program. It is consistent with programs in the private sector. Unfortunately, we are not able to be as generous in the coming year with this program as we have been in the past. Mrs. Carstalrs: Surely, the min ister recognizes, though, that people who tum to social assistance have usually turned there because all of their options have been closed to them, other than that.

They have run out of UIC, which is now going to be 57 percent of what their previous income was. They cannot find employment, which means they have probably put off discretionary spending of any

/ April 26, 1993 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2060 form whatsoever, and that may well include the purchase of new eyeglasses if that is what they require, yet the minister has said, well, they are going to be treated exactly like a civil servant who has to wait three months for their benefit package to chip in, but the person who has been hired into the civil service rarely has been on his last legs in terms of other programs available to them.

I really want to know if the minister considers this a fair initiative with respect to those who require eyeglasses or drug care or, in fact, dental restorative work. Mr. Glll eshammer: Perhaps some additional information would give the member more comfort. Emergency service will continue where necessary during the waiting period. I have indicated that waiting periods are common in private health plans, and this brings the plan more in line with private plans.

Essential pharma ceutical products and services will con tinue to be provi ded , an d exceptions can be made in consultation with a physician where individual circumstances warrant it. The coverage of the pharmaceuticals still will exceed that available through Pharmacare. As I indicated some months ago when we made this announcement that there is the ability of clients to use exempted sources of income if they wish. Mrs.

Carstalrs: The minister indicated, I thought, and perhaps I was incorrect, that the drug benefits had been cut to those pharmaceuticals no longer listed under Pharmacare, but he just seems to have said that they exceed those avai lable under Pharmacare. Perhaps I could have a clarification. Mr. Gll leshammer: Yes, I am sorry, and I understand the confusion there. It was reduced in coverage. It does cover everything that is covered through Pharm acare plus some additional products.

I could maybe give a few examples of that: prenatal vitamins for expectant mothers; most children's cough and cold mixtures; Extra-Strength Tylenol and pediatric Tylenol drops; children's vitamins and some others. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased with the ones that he has listed, because those are all necessary products. There is just one area, and maybe he just did not list it, and that is the whole issue of antihistam ines for children and social assistance recipients who suffer from severe allergies. I have a personal interest in this because I know how much I spend in the spring and fall.

Mr. Glll eshammer: I am told that all children's products are covered. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell us, what is this "Other"? I mean, it has gone from $1 35,000 to $121 ,500, obviously a substantial portion of the Other Expenditures. What is this $121 ,000 for? Mr. Deputy Chairp erson: Cou ld I ask the honourable member which page she is on in the supplement? Mrs. Carstalrs: Yes, in the Detailed Estimates, I am on page 31 . Mr.GIIIeshammer: If I have got the right line here, there is a reduction from $1 35,000 in '92-93 to $121 ,000.

The majority of that budget line is for computer services-$ 1 13, 000 of the $1 21 ,000. Mrs. Carstalrs: Is that computer services strictly for financial and admin istration, or would it also be the computer services for the Social Al lowances Health Services program, and anything else that is in this department? Mr.GII Ieshammer: I am told it is for the accounting procedures. Mrs. Carstalrs: Does this involve the purchase of new equipment, or is it now all just payments that have to go out for the actual computer work? Mr. Gll leshammer: No, none of that is capital. Mrs.

Carstalrs: So is this monies now being paid out to what used to be Manitoba Data Services? * (1 550) Mr. Gll leshammer: That is correct. Mrs. Carstalrs: Thank you. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a letter from Mr. Nick Atkinson, Executive Director, Opthalmic Dispensers of Manitoba. I think he was writing also on behalf of the Opticians Association of Canada. He refers to a meeting that he had with the minister and the deputy minister on February 11. It has to do with social allowance provisions which pay for optometrist costs.

It seems that there is an agreement between these two organizations to, I guess, standardize their rates and he points out that this could save the province $250,000 a year. I am wondering if the minister is familiar with these two organizations and their proposal, and if the min ister could tell us if there has been any policy change in this area? Would it be helpful if you had the letter? No, you are familiar with it. Good.

2061 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 Mr. Gll leshammer: I would confirm that this is an issue that is before the department. Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could tell us if you find this an attractive proposal since it says they could save the province of Manitoba $250,000 a year? Are you still negotiating, or are you about to ma ke a decision ? Where is this decision currently? Mr. Gll leshammer: This is an issue that is currently before government. Mr. Martindale: I am ready to pass this line. Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): This

section deals with finance and adminis tration, and the minister had said in his previous remarks the other day about asking for suggestions about how to reduce, perhaps, expenditures in the Department of Family Services. I am wondering if the minister could tell us what suggestions came forth from his department, his staff, through finance and admin, in regard to suggestions for reducing expenditures. Which suggestions came about that were not acted upon? Mr.

Gll leshammer: When you craft a budget and have these budge t de adl in es, you gather information from all sources, some of it from within your department, and other from the communi ty and the private sector. In many cases there are ongoing discussions that are taking place to consider ideas that come forward from those sources_ It is difficult to identify them now as many of them are still in process. Ms.

Gray: When the minister says they are still in process, surely ther e mu st have been some suggestions that came forth in the crafting of the '92-93 budget that were either found to be not workable or felt that they were too complex to implement atthis time. Were there any suggestions that were not dealt with-and I do not have any in mind; I am just asking the questioo-that were really not done for a variety of reasons? I would be interested to know what kinds of suggestions your department brings forward to you in regard to how to proceed with any given budget and what suggestions there are for changes. Mr.

Gll leshammer: I think it is fair to say that every de partment takes the ti me to examine their initiatives and examine how they do business, and major players in that, of course, are departmental staff. Sometimes there are suggestions to expend additional dollars, and we have to weigh that against the total budget. Other times there are suggestions of how we can spend less money and make major program cuts. Governm ent, in makin g those deliberations, has to balance all of these thi ngs against the service that is absolutely required.

So some of the things that have come forward perhaps need further clarification and further work. Some of those discussions are ongoing. Ms. Gray: I can see I am not going to get any specifics, and I will not pursue it just in the interest of time, but just to clarify, with this particular section, I would imagine this

section controls monies that go to regions, that go to directorates, that go to the Child and Family Services directorate, and then go to the agencies.

I would wonder if the min ister could tell me when the amoun t of mo ney is dec ided up on and apportioned out to the various divisions, or the various directorates and regions, et cetera, once they are aware of what that amount of money is, do they then have the authority within their own branches to actually proceed and spend that money, providing, of course, there are not any new regulations that might come forth in the middle of the year such as a freeze on hiring or something like that? Do they have the authority once they are given their budget to actually use those dollars? Mr.

Gll leshammer: If I could rephrase what the member, who has some valuable experience in government, is asking: Do the managers have the flexi bil ity within thei r branch to take dolla rs committed for one program and move it over to another program? I guess the answer to that is, in a very limited way. Ms.

Gray: Even more specific than that, rather than moving dollars from one program to another, my question would be, when a directorate, as an example, is given a specific salary line, they know how many dollars they have to spend on salaries over a given year, can they then manage within those salary dollars, i.e., not spend more than what is indicated? Are they able to proceed and make decisions based on the dollars that they have available to them in that salary line? Mr.

Gllle shammer: I know the member has said to me in the past that there are many excellent, excellent servants of the gov ernment there with ideas. Sometimes these ideas do not bubble up to the top as quickly as she would like, but there is a

April 26, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2062 limited amount of flexibility pursuant to regulations and directions that may be given by government. There are times when some of those decisions can be revisited. I would say in our department we do that from time to time. If it appears there is a better way of expending those dollars within that budget line in just a little different fashion, we have some opportunities to discuss that. Ms. Gray: I will be more specific. Let us say, hyp othet ically, someone runs one of the directorates, program and planning. They have three administrative secretaries.

Two secretaries decide to go on maternity leave. They have the salary dollars to replace because those people are on maternity leave. Do they have the authority to go ahead and do that providing they are in within the regulations of Human Resources? * (1 600) Mr. Gll leshammer: These hypothetical questions are, of course, difficult to answer because they are hypothetical, but again, dependent on departmental needs-and there have been times when a hiring freeze has existed. Of course, then it becomes more difficult in that you have to make a case for that.

I think it is fair to say that within the budgetary parameters that we have, when people leave the workplace for whatever reason, if they need to be replaced, then they are. If the member is saying that maybe there is a better way of spending those dollars and hiring someone somewhere else, there is a limited ability to do that. Ms. Gray: If there is a vacancy, whether it is for maternity leave or someone resigns, and you want to replace that person, and it is the middle of the fiscal year, does the staffing subm ission have to be prepared? Who has the authority? My question is, who has the authority?

Can it be done at that level when there is already dollars in the Salaries line, or does it have to go all the way up the line to the minister and/or to Treasury Board? Mr .GII Ieshammer: There are a variety of answers to that. I think, as the member knows, if there is in fact a hiring freeze in place, which happens from time to time, then it requires the authority by the direction of more people. If there is not a hiring freeze, depending on the position, it can be dealt with at various levels. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, all I want to know is, is it general procedure, regardless of hiring freezes-let us assume they are not in place at whatever tim e-that staffi ng submissions, do they have to go to Treasury Board for approval even if it is someone who is at an A Y2 level making $1 8,000 a year? Mr. Gll leshammer: Not necessarily. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell me, is that the norm or is that the exception when he says, "not necessarily"? Mr. Gll leshammer: Well, it depends on the case the me mber wants to bring forward . In the hypothetical case that she raised before, it depends on the position.

Of course, with a hiring freeze in place then it does require more authority. If the question now is if there is no hiring freeze, then it depends on what latitude the managers have within their hiring parameters. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell me what latitudes do they have within their hiring parameters? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in almost all of the cases, it does come up to the deputy minister level so that we can see if the staff year could be reassigned to ano ther area of the department. Ms. Gray: Does the staffing submission go beyond the deputy minister level, and if so, where? Mr.

Gll leshammer: It would go to the min ister. Ms. Gray: Does it go beyond the minister? Mr. Gll leshammer: No. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so the minister is telling me that by and large, even in the normal routi ne, day-to-day decisions that occur in the department, where there are salary lines and various managers and directorates that know how much money they have, and given there is a hiring freeze, still there has to be paperwork that is done that goes all the way up to the various levels to the minister for approval? Is that correct? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Yes, to see that the needs across the entire department are met, that is correct. Ms. Gray: Does the minister believe that that is really a good way to do things, thatthat is an efficient way to do thing s in regard to having those decisions? Is it common practice in the Department of Family Services that all decisions are made at the top as opposed to delegating those decisions to managemen t?

2063 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 26, 1993 Mr. Gll leshammer: A lot of the staffing that the member is referring to does come up through the system so that senior managers and, in some cases, the min ister can look at what the priorities within the department really are. There are many times when managers want to make a case for additional staff for programming.

It is not very often that the opposite occurs where people come forward and say, you know, we can do with less staff in this area, but in order to be able to address some of the real needs that come to the department, it is im portant that from time to time staff can be reassigned to address those concerns. Ms. Gray: The minister might be surprised that if managers were allowed to have the authority to make the decisions that they get paid to make, they might come up with suggestions and ideas on giving up staff years.

My further question to the minister is, do the assistant deputy mini sters and people at that particular level not meet with their managers on a regular basis to look at what the managers' goals and objectives are for the year? Do they not get an un derstanding of sort of the priorities of the dep artmen t thr ough those mechanisms, as opp osed to dealing with it through staffing submission? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Yes, that is correct that senior managem ent do meet on a regular basis to review the needs of the department, and I think the member, who has a passing knowledge of Family Services, I believe, would recognize the changing dynamics out there, where information is shared by senior staff mem bers and that staffing can take place accordingly. But I recognize the member is bringing up a valid point that managers sometimes, when they have more freedom to manage, are able to find those solutions, and I think as a management team the team has to find a way in which those ideas are brought forward. Ms.

Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, could the minister tell me, getting onto a different subject, where is the space plan at right now for Winnipeg Region, Family Services and Health? Mr. Gll leshammer: The space plan that the memb er is asking about is still before a number of departments, and as the member is aware, the Department of Government Services is involved in allocation of space. The issue is still within our department and two others. Ms.

Gray: Does the minister have an idea as to when there might be a resolution of that particular project, particularly in light of the fact-I do not think he has any staff who are outside of the catchment area of St. Boniface in particular, but certainly the Department of Health does, so there is probably less accessibility of mental health staff and Family Services staff to work with each other because some are downtown and some are within the communi ty. Mr.

Gll leshammer: I would hope that we would be able to deal with that in the coming months, especially after we finish Estimates and have more time to liaise with other departments involved, but probably it will be longer than we want. * (1 61 0) Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. (

e) Management Services (1 ) Salaries $1 ,885,700--passed; (

b) Other Expenditures $547,700-pass. 1. (e)

(2) Program Budgeting and Reporting (

a) Salaries $336,700. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is my understanding that from time to time people on social assistance find themselves in emergency situations and approach the department for, I guess, a dupl icate issue is the best way of describing it, and tha t some people find themselv es in th at circumstance because they have spent their money on various kinds of gambling, for example, bingo, VL Ts and lotteries of various kinds.

I am wondering if the minister can tell us if this is a very serious problem, if there are very many people who are coming forward for assistance because of this problem, and how do the staff respond. Do people get a duplicate issue or how are they dealt with? Mr. Gll leshammer: The whole issue of emergency situa tions, of course , is something that the department has to take very seriously because you want to be able to have the resources to deal with the true emergency situations.

As a result, these are looked at on a case-by-case basis, and when there in fact is a genuine emergency, then the department will respond in a positive way to that. I know we got into this discussion once before, whether government should flow the money to the recipient or man age the money for them, and by and large the philosophy is to flow the money and allow the recipient to manage it as they see frt. There are cases where we do flow the rent directly. There are

April 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2064 cases where resources are flowed every two weeks to help manage it. I think, in terms of dealing with the majority of our clients, we do flow it on a monthly basis and they ma ke their own decisions. The liquid assets standard that we raised last year allows the ability for a numb er of those clients, particularly with their exempted income, to retain more of that. Specifically, you asked if there are people who are involved in bingo games who are spending their resou rces there and as a resul t asking for emergency money.

I do not think that we have heard anything to this effect in our district offices. However, informally and unofficially, it is something that I have heard about in the community. Mr. Martindale: So the min ister is not aware of particular cases wher e people, say, have a gambling addiction and have spent their money on gambling and then had to ask for a duplicate issue. I think this is an emerging issue in our society, and I am told that people have come forward for duplicate issue for this reason. Mr.

Gll leshammer: I thi nk the member can appreciate that many of the more active and more ambu latory cases are on the muni cipal caseload, where that issue may well be brought back to the mun icipality. I have not heard from either UMM or MAUM or any of the major cities that that is an issue, but it is something we can check with them to see if in fact, at their level of assistance, it is an emerging issue. Mr.Martlndale: Would the min ister also check with the directors of the Income Security branches to see if it is a problem in the provincial system?

Secondly, if it is a problem, would he talk to the min ister responsible for the Manit

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-49a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 49a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ab2e57f5805e2082869979363057d88c1931ddf0

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