'IOL. l i.."NEDITE:l '!'RA.~SCP.! :?T :-lOUSE OF ASSE:1BL"i :'OR -ri-!E ?E:::l.lOO: 3:00 ?.~. - 6:00 ?.~. TUESDt;! I !JEC~GE?. ~I 197 3 olO. -D

T~s House ~et at 3:0 0 P.~. Ord.er, please! On teh~lf of all ~on. =er~ers, _ would. lik~ to ~· elcome :o t.:O..e Ho1..1se t~C:.ay a!"l.ci t= ~.:.a gal.l~r:.as, che C~ild, a~d to presenc ~on. ~~ers ~c~olls ccr.~~~ora~ir.~ ~~is XlO Fores~s. :·tr. Spe.l.ker, ! j,o jcb: :·ieary". The arti~le _?oL~t..s ou~ ~:,a-: t..1.e i.m;l i:::a~ior. is l:f~ ~eople are boozing to th~ ~oi~t of being ~~~=le to ca=~ o~~ t~eir C. 1 .J.2S 3.!:.~ r~s~onsi.!:ili tie~ l.:: re~r~L-.~ f:!"om t !:is =-:cilse ' !~ is a - l~~·ri:~:;

Dece:nbe:- ~. 1379 ~ape ~:o . ~57'7 NM - 2 s:::oulc be ::13.::-i! ied , or :nay::e :.::ves:: igace::. ;.n apology. :O!R. !·IORGA.'I: And ~i c..~e:e is no e\·ice:tce, i! oade, chat: ::his House, tilrot..:c;h :.he means -::~f :..'\e a:e ~e::: "'he =cie t:he ~~a:::~e. shot..:lc a?o~~ize eo the ?ress c;alle~f· decis~on as t:o ·.'hat: ac~or. t:o ::ake ::::om he:::e.

Sl!t: it: LS a o:::eac:t Of C..~e ?rivilages Ot ~'uS ?'.OUSe Of Asse ::-..bi':'. ~e.a:-, he a:! ~he hen . ~e~e: :or t:he St:!:'ai:s of :-t.R. ~3!: ~5: ::o =-~a ~ l~t~ta~ ::.:.o~ ~y c..~e ~nis ::e::: oi ?orest:~! !~d ~c;:::~cul:~e (M:::. ~o:;~, J . ?i:::sc of :!ll, ::r course, :.."le:-e ce::::.ainly is no ?Ql!\C of prJ.vil e qe ar.c r ·.:ill col:le !:lack :o thae '!ou= ?;or.ou:. !tot !<.."'loW' Oy ::.o_,, o\.:;Z:t co :<:lOW :·;.ll ·Je!: :hac :.1: lS l..!DPrO?~ co :-aise a ?Ol:t e o: ?~ :.. v:..le.:;e ~ell -a.~C 'J:t!.ess ~e !.5 ;n: e;-~ec -::;.') ~ut. ~c ·.J:l !. s~se~~~ive =~ti~r.. ~~e~ ·- 3965

Cece:r.!:er 4,1979 r.r.- J. !1'3.. ROB!?.TS : Your ~oncur rules ~~at the matter ::ta~· go ahead on t.'"le :::asis that t.":er<! is a ;;:ri:r..a facie point, t.'l.en the motion is ~~e~e to be debateC :ecause , of course, as Yc~r Eonour, has told us m~~y times it is up to t.'l.e Reuse itself to decide what au: privileges are. ~cur ~onour in this sense speaks for t.'l.e f.ouse. Your Rcmour does not decide '"hat the privileges are. Your f.or:our leaves tilat to t:,.e House.

So the gentleman zrorc 3onavista Sout.'l(~:r.~orgar.l. ·.~hatever importantly, Sir, I do not t.'l.ink it is a ~reach of t.'l.e privileqes of t.~e f.o·~e to refer to a news~aper ~•d :::1a:.e it on an hen. gent!~~~. If the newspaper is in brea~'l. of the privileges of t.'l.e ~cuse.~~d! do not t.'l.:.nk it is , ~uti: it is. ~~en ~~e hon. gentleman's cocp:a~t ouqht to be wi~~ ~~e ~ublisher ~~c the eCitor of ~e newspaper ~cl not ~ith ar.."j he::.. g;::~=.::-.an in this ~cuse.

If ::.e fesls ~y frie:".d !rc.m La.Poile (~!:- .. ~:ea...-y) -:i.st=ict sotru!how yesterday :::reac:t.ed t..~e p:ivilet;es of the no~e L~ ~~~ course of Ceba~e, then t~~re is a ~e~~od ~o deal I unC.ersta...'""'.c! furt..,er t:.at t.,_e Pre~.ier has a..."'l impcr'ta.."'l t ~inisterial Stat:c.en~ ar~d ! f...-ould sugc;est th.at Yo~ Honct:r mig~~ 'M"ish to let !lS get ahead •..-itl'l t.'"le impo:-tant !:lusiness of t.'"le :Ocuse a!'td no-: ':.":ese cheap shots cy gentle~n like -:~e gen~lemar. ::-ore 3onavista South l~~­ l-lorgan) • If t.'l.e press, Sir, ·feel t.~ey ha•;e ::.een mali -;:-ted by a.r.j't.'li:-.g saiC. by ~y :riend !rom !.a.?oile (Yr. ~iea:-

y) I ass:.:=-e ~on. gen~le~en :..,at.- ~.P .. MORGAN; state!tlen t:. :·tR. ROSE<;.TS: ! did net ser.d ~~~ here. ~. _:: P!~~: (Si!m:'s) ~~- .. ~EE~.TS: Mr. Spea~er, ! !ind t~e p:esenee of !r.e Creer, please! !!r. Sp~aker, •,.;hat l ai!t saying, Si=, is that if ~~e ;ress feel ~~ey ~ave =een r.ali~ed I ~~ sure, Si=, the press have adecr..!a:t.e a.."'ld a:r;ple rerr.erlies ·""·it.."'l.i~ t...~ei.r 0' ... .-r. grasp to =.efer-.d t...'i.e~selves. 39o6

'-_.,__ ~= ou: ar.1 case a~ a!l, Sir. ~;at. :·L~ .. S?~:Z?.: ;;.ea:, .:-aa: ~ t..ab:ador ==o:n Cape st. ~ -;,a.!""J 1 S to cas:e ·::,iC.l.~:f. InC.eeC., t~e singl:a ::iOs-: io?Ortant is3ue which fac=s t~s Provi~ce to~ay is whe~~er :hesc -:rawler ::~e :. 39o7

Dece.'tlber 4, 1979 Tape 1579 !?K - l Premier PsckiorC! This time the tra~lers will come not :~om R1.1ssia, G<2=any o~ !?olar..d, but from Mainland cax1ada. I'he r~sul":..s however will be disa~t:ousl1 the same . That is the essence of the :~Northern . , . :ex;. l.ssue. We must ~ot be fooled by the t~'~orther~ :~~ ~tocks;' he cod stocks at issue are not some remota new body of fish which has been recently discovered, ~ther chese stocks have historically been che basis of economic ar~ social life in most of this ?rovince since it ::ounding.

This is the fish we ha~e caught,processed and exported down through the years. These cod breed in the Wincer and Spring on our Eascern off-lying banks ·.;hich extend irom the Ha.lnilton and the Makkovik 3anks in che ~orth to Selle !sle aank, Funk !sland Bank, the Ritu Ba..."'lk, ar:.d the :-Jorthe:n .:ia== of ::-.a ~r.a:1d. 3a!'l.~s, ~i.!'e·=~l:t East of St. ~ohn's in tne Sou~~. They more properly should be called ~~e'Northeast cod stocks: Mr.

Speaker, I: can!"'.ot stress !"low L~~or-can-t it is f~r Newfo~dla~d ?is~~~2r- to under3tand tha~ these ara ~he sa~e cod s:ocks :Mh~ch ·11e ca-cch L"'lshore C.urir.g the Si.!IrnC.er. caught offshore,~~en t~e same fish c~~ot be ~lso caugh~ ins~ore. These ;;toc:-cs ·.;ers raped by the foreigners, but new they are coming :Oa-::k.

Will we !:Je allowed to ~ui~ o~ f:.;.t~-a o:-. ':.:1.e=:.~? .;t a press .::onfe:ence on August 31,1979,. ! sta'tad that there ·.o~as no basis for complacsncy with the results of ctle so-called.'Norchern :od Cor.=erence''·.;hic:C. the Federal Government convened in Corner Srock from August 23::: to ::::a JOt:: I poL'lted to a m.lr.lber of very ,_.orri.so::te trends ;,·hich seemed to .:mer;e from those dis~~ssicnsj i..., ~articular to tO.e pro,;:osa.l t~t o~ i~s.1ora/ middle distance fleet along the entire NOrtheast c:oast of Ne•.rfoundland and the Coast of Labrador ;;hould be rest:ic'ted to only 66 per cent of the total quota as opposed to their traditional 100 per cent.

I also poinced to the great uncertainty which exists with regard ;:o Ottawa's lc .. tlowledge of the biolog:r of 'these stocks ar:c just how mllch the stocks were recover L'lg after t;.·o decades of foreigner over-fishing. We in ~his Province had high hopes when the 200 mile lL~it was declared. 39B8

December :; , l9i9 Tape l5i9 ?K - - ?re::tie:: ?ec!t.:o:c: cevelo;me."lt.S l.! Le!:: •J."lchec~e<:! cct.:.!d s'<ua.s:-. t.::Ose eire=». !'hey have !or::ed ::~y ;ove::r.c:e.::lt. to act. a.-.c ::o a- - decis.l "Jely. :~s~# Otcawa has ::ont~f.led e4ch y!:a: ===> :rea :e :!.."\ art.i.f ical "3"o.!r?Lt:s "o= some 25,000 :necric ::or.s or SO cil!icr. ;:ou..-.cs o!

Nor -:heast. cod ;,hich ::as been ;i·1en •<~it.hot:l: con<ii ::io n or commer.s:.1::: ~~:~ ~e."l eii:: 1:0 io::-eic;n ~awle.rs i t.."'-i:> :nust r.o1: be ~llowed ;..., 1990 • . .Seco~d, a sigr.J.!.ica:'!.t. o!.fsnor~, "A·ac:~s~ c:awler effor:: has been directed ::owarcs ::hese stocks without a~y a::::en::~on to it-s impact on ou: i.tisho r e : ishe:y. In 1979 t..~ese vessels will catch soc:e 45,000 ;nee ic tons or ~0 , million pou.-.C s. 3969

Dece~~er 4, 1979 :a..,e :io. 15cJ o>: - 1 So:r:e th.i.3 fis h ver.1 correctly .. .- en~ t.nese stocj(,s, !or exa.ople, in Catalina, ~t. Wohn • s an~ :re~· asset. A t;;toch s~r.aller atr.ount ·.:ent to pla."lts on otor own Soui:.:. :::oas~. :im.-e·1 er, ~,.e a.la=ing :ieveloprent ·.;as a ::!ai.nland .. ased effort :.;hicn in 1979 "-"ill ta..ke sore 13.~00 ~t:ic tons or 26 -:-.i~lion 20U."1.d.s of coc.,·~·1i..ic.."l was ba<ily neececi in a ?rovi.nce ••it:L Ca.nada' s hignest \O:'.e~loj/lr.enc rate.

Thi:e, it has teco~e o~vious ~~at ~~is wetfis~. tra~le= effo:~ is jus't t:.he t...,_in ei.i.s;e ~ of ~-.,e ilied<;e,: ·!.ainla:-.d cc:r.par..ies r.o"'-· ¥-· .an~ bigger c;,uotas anci tl1e use c: large freezer tra'-ft·lers,•her..ce ~l:'ta'-'a.'.;; recent C.eci.:;i:n to allow· t,.=,e l.ic:e:tsi.n<; of freezer t::awlars a The flcoC;ates are !'10~ OF en. tihat :~as l.aen ~apper.ing ::..s a. ~ra~!J.al erosion of th~ economic lif~looci of our fish~rmen and pl~~ violate l:rie ~asic a..~d. e~i."':.e::.'~!~· reascr:.ablc pri::ci;la t..."lat t....,_e c=ttr'..!..""..ities froct Cape St:- :·:ar::·'s to =~~e C..""lidley . ...,~l.ch ~ave t.:aci­ tiona.lly C.ape....,_C.~C. on t:-.ese st.oc.i.:.~ should cou~in~e to be ':.t.,_e l:enefi- ciaries of c...'lese s~ock:s.

It. is ~porta01t to note ti1;;.t Car.aca :!Scc.i. :.."le dependency of ~b.ese Ccti'J:':c.r~t.ies ~o jc.stif:t our 200 ii!il~ 1i:r...:..= leadj.n;- anC: unnecessary for ,:n .. ta,.·a to cl;aracterize !:.i~ese stocks as t."le "O:roperty of all Canaciiar.s" a.<d !:.i1us ope:-. t.~ec. :.o e:Qloitat.:.on Hr. Speaker, t...'-'le Province of ~:ewfocnC:.- la.nci made its case clear at t4-.e :tortherr .. CcC. Confera:lce b:r ; ·resentir.g a paper :.·i".ich ..-as made pukllic. Sui;;sequent to t.'lat, a.fter t:tuc;,. cor::-e­ sponC::.ence1I t:".et ~· ith. t...~~ FeC.eral !· l inist~.: of F1.~rieries, :·!!:'.

McG~at..~. on ~"o\t~~er 5th., 1979, and ?rescn:ec! !l.i.:r. a Ciscus~icr: pa;:er cr. c~ ~~o rt:nea..sc cod s-=:odc:.s. of this Provicce's strcng; ~oral ~~c ~~storic clai~ bO ~~e eco~oti= :.:.e.nefi ts of tr.ese coci stoc.~s anc. l. ts lone; :"..is to ric Ce:>en.C.enc::· en :..:.em 1 no re~l:l ;'l.as be.;n r;-.ade to the Province • .s arc;\m".e:-.:.s. On ~;c~""e.t.~.be::- 19~-:., 39'10

~ced:ez .. , 19 79 -;·:: - 2 -... ~s r.oc. ~t:-.-.o r.:.. ::ec ';.:;) :r.ee:. ou r <!et.a:.C.S, : . .,.::::.e to ':.:te ?r.:..;r.e :..i::is::e: 1 : rov1.nce. I have :lOt. yeo:. recei vec a rq>iy -.;) cl".a-:. le:.-:.e r. To r;.y pe r sonal .:.:. s::~aj·, on !::l ila::, . :c ver-~e : 30t.:"l. 1 <::-.e fede: &: ~vem:te~c a:.::ou.~ce d 1.:~ s:ol:..: y o: ::r.e l..l~ensi..-.g of :'reezer c.:et..,..!.e::.;;.

T:~a e s.:;ence o : ~~.:..;; .;~oi.:.c-! is ~o e a.k2 i ; ,;oss il:l:e !c: ::.a.i:t::.anc !.:.sfoi.lz:c; eooi)a.n.:.:.s c..::> : c ~ .Ul:r ~y - ?ass Xew;o~•cla::d a::ci p r oces.:; o~:. ! is~ i:: ~~i::l~-.~ ?!~~:s. ~h es e vessels ~ iw~ ~~2i: ur. :e st ric~ ~d ;:oar.C~ : z~ l~c~ns~ s •' i ll !:e U:lc :o !is:~ · .. :i::.1n :;--.·el"re !"..ilt:.s o: cc.: eoa.s u a::C. e ·~~~ in ¢u= 3971.

December 4, 197·3 Tape ~o. 1581 ?REM:;:ER. ?ECK:"ORD: Notre Dame Bay, g1lt.ting and heading any cod caught onboa.rd and transporting these semi-processed fish to ~!ainland plants !or :inal p:ocessir.g. These freez!!!r trawlers ·.rill have an insatiable appe-::.:.. t!!! for cod and Ottawa will ~e ~~der continual pressare to allocate more and more fish to ~~em.

These de•relopments . ..,ill, i:: not stopped, seriously prevent our inshore ~~d middle dis~ance cod catches from recovering to chei: f~l pocential and will depr.:..~e ~ur many seasonal fish plants of the long awaited opportunity to create ~uch needed employment in ~~is ?rovince. Mr.

Speaker, we ~4ve repeatedly L~dicated 'l:o ~~e Government of c~~ada that a continuation o~ ~~ese policies would ~e totally unacceptable to ~~is Province ar.d that the interests of the communities along the Nor~1.eas'l: Coast of ~e·..,foundla.::d and the Coast of ~rador must come fi:s~. ! repe3t that position today in ~~e most emphatic terms possi~le ~~d pledge to use every powe: wichin the constitutional auchority of this Province to reverse these federal policies '"hich have ~'le potential of :!estroying tl'le •1ery basis oi life in so ~y of our smaller communities. l Our objec~s a:e,then, ~umber o~e, eliminatio~ of ~~e arti!ical forsiqn surplus o! 25,000 metric t~cs, Nhich by the way, i: you work it out in te~ o! what it does for ~his ?=evince, will be- fishermen's income- SlO million; pl~~t wages- $55 mill~on: plant jobs - 2,500: and somewhere around SlOO million in gross benefit ~o the economy of the over ~100 mill~on) Two, a roll back of Nor~~east cod Cf.lOta allocations to mainland '"e~!ish trawlers; and ~':lree, ~:~ost import.lntly, modi;ication of Ottawa' s freezer tra•.<ler policy- so ~'lac any fr!!ezer trawler licences iss~;ed to ~a.inland plants ••ill :\Ot ~e •ralid for waters adjacent to this ?rovincEj subareas two and ~1.ree, and subdivision 4RS in ~~e Gulf - and ~n pa:~icular for our ~or~~eas~ cod stocks. 3972

December 4, ~379 Tage No. 1581 ~:Z·! - 2 reviewing all :he •.o~eapons :~.;: o= tisposal to ach.ie·1e :hese cb)eccJ.ve. notice t.hae i! they acce;n:: (di:ec ::ly or :.:\~ec::!y l !ole•.,.four.Cla:-.c ::::C ca~.:c;ht by :::-eazer ::.rawlers an<!. lanced on t~e :na inland, . .,.e '"i lL rese::-1e :rear, he!.= : !:1 adC:.e:.on, ~heehe: ~~ey should oe renewec at all. of phone calls !rom Otuwa eo St. John's, through :.he l4St ::.-... o ·.,.ee.<s, ~~at t~e present ~ove~~t o f ~anaria has ;one agalns:: ~~e L~~e:ests o: :.'Us ?:ovi:lce 3973

December 4, 1979 Tape 1582 PK - l Premier ?eckford: in the most fundamental way possible. It is not a happy day =or me or for N'ewfoundland. However, the importance of ~hese cod stocks to our people transcends all political considerations. A.'"ld I make no apologies to whosoever will, I would like for the issue to be co~sidered in that light, \'ii::hout:. these stocks, sao communities in our Province would have no economic future. Consequently 1 •oha.t ::nust be done, must be done. Nor should anyone mistake ~ ~~ resolve in t.hi3 :a!:.~;=.

As far as I and my Government are co~cerned1 the fisheries of ::hi:; Province are its past, its presen~, ar.d its future. And no other ~ssue is as important. To our fellow Canadians, I ·•auld say that we are not being greedy; we are merely try~•g to protect ~~e livelihood of t.':i.e many s::~all communities which have al·oays depenced on these stoc~<s, and who,alone of all Canadians 1 have traditionally harvested them. We must defend our rights just as I am sure the government of any province would defend the mainstay of its econ=y and its society.

If I were to do anythL~g less1 I would be betrayL'"lg the people who elected me, -:tlected. ::ty Goverrunen'C Eu"'ld .a.dor-:i::.s a positio::. ~ ... ·r .. i=:-:. :: personally could not live with. I canno~ stress ~ow L~Fortant t~is issue is to our future and in that rest)ect 1 I will be making a ::tajor presentation to the people of t.~e ProvL~ce via the media L'"l the very near future.

We ~st all understand how vital this issue is to us. ~ie must all see the Northeast cod not as some remote resource, but what it really is~ .I the basis of our livelihoods and econo~ic fut~e It will not affec~ us tonight or tomorrow or next month, or perhaps even next year, !::::..; t if we do not start now1 ten or fifteen years from now we are going to have to answer some pretty hard questions. I ask for the support of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians on this vital issue. Thank you very much. SOME !iON. ~!E."!E.E.RS: Hear, hear! 3374

Oece=l:le: ~. 1979 '!'a~e l5e 2 ?!<. - 2 Tha :wn . Leacie.r o.t ~':e Oppos 1 ::1on . !-!r. S?euer, ... r.ile :.'-.!! ::on. -:.~.e ?re.:uer d.!.;i ce che cour.:esy o! prov!.d i.t:c; ~ copy of -=:-:.e scate:~te."'l::, I ~ quice sur e as soon as ic was aval.lable,c~c was on l y a moment o r~~~ :etc:!! coming i:.to ::.he House. for !lie or c.y ::oll!!ao;ues ::o exll:ll~e i:s ::~i::~::io ns in :heir -:.o cal i -:.y.

So· ... eve: , it is no~ :itfi cule !o: oe to ?recier to trea~ t his ~s a ma~ter ~~A~ is ~eyonC pol~t1c4l co~s~ee:a:ions, ar..d '-'h.iCh gees to c.'te hea:: c! our '-'hole ~l e•.,.tou.-:.cilar.C ·...a.'f c ::: 1.1.:::e, a:-.C our '-lhol.e Ne ... ~ouncil<L!'.d economy. ! ::an say w~ac coday 'Jich a c;ooc deal of sa:::.sf3.c !:l.O:t 3975

:ec~er .;, 1979 ::a~e .:;o. l5o3 5:> - l because, of course, !..n t.1.is i:iouse only a •.1eek ago or less I made substar..tiall? t!"\e sa.ue ~dnd of assartic:1 ~- i~• rega:ci to, a'C :.eas ~, ~"le historical :labs of ::e'Nfcunci:a.r.~d and ir ... C.e~ !n'.l·;:::-... o!

"rha~ t...'Le Pre=ier Qas said i~ ~~e pre~l~ to his seatecent. • do no~ su;ges: ~~t it is a pa:apri:ase of my s~~~ch bu~ I ~~ s~e tha~ he Wa3 aware of it at e~e ~= ~'ac ~~e ;repa:a:io~ of ~~is doc~er.t was !~cieed, ~y sa~is!~ctior. ;oes ~ack ago t:-.a.t a ge:1era!. -;:er:ti:-.g ·~·as convenac.! ac :!lY inst~ga;:.ior. :..:-. :·!a:t~~own, t.:'le C.oc'..lmeneation f.:l: ;.;t~i::b. is a•.,·ail~l= to al.!. ~~~e:es:.ed :r.e=J;,e:s, atter.ded by t~e t:ten :liniste: c!

FisheriC!s in :...~is ?ar-:.i~·.1l.a.r special place for ... ~at are k,..-:.ow:l as ~he :-t~r-:::er:1 :cd ~c:::-:k~. ini':.i3lly a couple of se;;.>Jns ago, i:. ·..-a..:; -:.'le t.'len ~~ini.o:.er c: Fisheries for cana~a who,d~spite st:o~g opposi~ion from all of ~~e people cor.cer:1ed in t..'l.e ;.ra.:i~irne Provinces, e.lloca:::: =:r f.3.r t.":.e largest portion of ~:..'-la~ s~ock. eo Newfou..i.dla.nd a~ ~!:a.t ~ir:l~. .:..

Celi~ve 1 fur~he~ore 1 that ~~e record will show ~~a~ whils t~is issue of free:er tr~wlers is one whic~ has confused and ccnfo~~dec ~ great nany ~eople 1 because it is :-.ot ::.r-1ly ::nderstood by t.'le ~ajori~y _, t~-e si.."':'!pl ~ t..o. ...,.~":. of t~e :-ta tt~r is t~a t ~ublic fi:;'lr2S, ! ~~ir-~ of all ?Oliti=a! persuasio~s, ~ve ~ad deep conc~r~ for so~e tir.1e over ·N:tat t..~~ ra.:·:tificatior..s wo'..lli ::e of ar.'J s:..U:-st.a..i.ti.a.l c~~ir.l7 ~aen enunciated by me and ! hope if members ~i3h ~hey 3976

agr.ae . M.y only point: o: depart:.=!\, ?e-=~ps, .,..io .:"sga:d !:" the s:..:bse.a.-.ce o: :a! ~· i::; i~ =iti~g an his!:orical 3977

t:ecember 4,1979 Tape ~!o. 15 84 AH-1 1·!R.. JJ:.l-!!ESO!! : right fer ~ewfoundl~~d in t~is :r.atter, to then confine tb.at parti=.:!ar rigl':t exc!usi~rely to some particular group of Newfoundlanders, although as my earlier stateme~t said , of coursa 1 it was and always has ~en ~~e ~ainstay of many of t.'le c=unities 1 particularly on ~~e Norteast coast of tiewfoundland. ~.nd, !!:.

Speaker, t.'le Premier in making t:.."lis, what can orHy be described as dr~.atic an~ouncement 1 whic~ can also only be classed as a outright confrontation with ~'le goverr~ent in Ottawa, ~as also indicated t.'lat tr.ey will use - t:..~at is the goverr~ent, all t:..'le ~eapcr.s at t.'leir dis;ocsal. I have no quarrel ..,it.~ t.'lat •.• I fear ,. however, ~':.at ~'lese wea?ons,at t.'lat particular level, are qoi~g to be rat.'ler licited. !'he .o;tate:nent l!'.akes reference to licencing and t.r.e like and perhaps oe ven ilrplici t i:1 it is t..~e suggestion of a failu:e to rer..ew licences.

I do not ~~ any c! us can have any all~sior..s about what the ~~pact o.f that particular act might very well be for veXJ" many, ir.deec thousa.'lds of our Newfou::-.dland people already employed in t!'l.e fishir.g companies,so~e of ~hom he n~es in t.~is document.

I would therefore urge t.'lat every effort be made to follow the route which he has outlined al~~o~gh clearly, clearly,if I ~ay =e so bole as :o say so, !his is a definite in -:iic.ation :>f w~a: mi<;!1t. =e dcscri=eC. .as t::-:: honeymoon is over . insofar as federal-provincial tela:ions,at least L~ fisheries are concerned, ;:,_.t at the sa:tte time it is ob•ric..;s t.'lat t!:.is government must make every effort to e...sure that the ~ve=ent of C~~aea,re~resented as it is by a Newfcur.dlar..der as ~'le Minister of Fisheries (Mr .)o!cGra~'l) 1 changes its mind. !~e have lest t.'1e fish a.~d on TUesday, next week, we ~ill probably loose t.'le chips too when the Budget comes daRn.fut nevertheless,t.~e route of negotiation remains clearly and unmistakably the one whic~ must be employee because the alternative would involve ~is gove:rr.cent and the people of ::ewfou.'ldlanc in a !rtost massiv~, a :test massive chan~e ir. its econo=ic st.!'Uctura insofar as t.'le fishery is concerned. because, obvious!~ wit.~out going 3978

Dec:em!le!: 4, 1979 Tape ao. 1584 into ~~e s~stance of it tocay , it is clear t..~at if t..~ere were tc ~e :10 rer.e"'·al of lice:-.ces :Eor · .. .r:1~~ must constitute-! do not k:'!ow per!'\aps sixty or sev~n~y ?er cen~ of the cajor pl!.r.t procl.uc:tion i:t this ?:::o•rince, ~·:-:! si~ly could not tu..""';l t.'le key ane let it go at t..':.at. i/;'.at we ~o:oulc ~ave to do is o!:lvicusly f.i.:'ld ot.'lers ·~·he are prepared or i."l so~e way or ot.'1.er to keep t.'>ese cperatio:ls goi:1<;1. ~re•rertheless , :~r.

Speaker, t!:.is is a sad C.ay, a saC day in Ne'·,fcundlar..d • s pcst-Conf~deraci.on :tist.c:;. ... !'t is, as - saiC., bias of one kind or a."':.other,.:n:.t •,;hen ';·Te reac::. t.."'t.e ;oint ·.;here it is gauntlet., which is essentiall7 '"'Mt i~ i.•voliTec here, t.o the Gover..::1 e::1~ of Canada, especiall:.· so rece!'ltl'l electec to of:ice a.•Hi especially !:ac situation on our ::.anc:s. r ~elieve t!':at r \·;ould :Oe remiss, Mr .Spea!~er, if : die:! not also, t.~is after::con, say that t!'lis se=-ies c= ac":.ion5 t~ro\·:s serious eoubts upon ~ow !::'.any other o:: the .:nuch. vaur.t.ed cc=•it::r.ents, about ~hie~ we have heard in ;~~eral :ut en ~hie~ ~~e Cetails ar~ lackin~, ~rre can expe-::t to see 3979

December 4, 1979 Tape N'o. 1585 NM - 1 :1.t;t. JA.'!IESON: macerialize i:1 £ederal/?rovi:1cial relations.

I wil~ :1ot take ~~e time t~ay, I ~derstand the Premier has a press conference, I do not propose to hold h~~ up and I am graciously thankful that he has stayed to hear my remarks, but the tt".:th of ~'l.e matter is that what we have at this present moment is clear eveidence that on one of ~:he fundamental ~~d basic points about federal/;Jrovincial relations we have failed in ~~e negociating level, and we cannot be blamed for asking, wnen ~~e chips are down, if that is not a mixed metaphor at this particular ti~:~e, w~.ether any of ~~e o~~ers will be any more realizable for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland.

SO..M.E !iON. ~ID!SERS : ~\R. J;l..'t!ESOt<: Hear, hear~ Insofar as che 3Ubst~~ce of this is concerned, there ""ill be no quarrel from this side of t~e F!ouse ••ith ~'":e decision to asse.rt Ne•.-fcundland' s prior cl.aim to ·.rhat have come to be called, and I again agree with the Prcl:licr, co~e to be called the Northern cod stocks :Out ·.-~hich have ~een t.he traditional basis of ':.~.~at:. indus-::ry and t!'lat area, as I saJ.d in my speech last :iednesday, for many cent~ies. In that regard I say to him ~'l.at there is no quarrel from this side of the a:ouse.

What ~'l.ere is is a deep sense of unease, of great concern t.'l.at the next period ahead of '.lS may be one ·.rh.ich will see disturbances of a ~egotiating nature ~ut perha9s :ven more ~~an that 1 in the sense of t.'l.e general tensions that will make it~' interesting period to watch and a period which will call for all of the ac~~n. all of ~'l.e skill, t.'l.at t.'l.e government possesses. .;r.d I may say as well, the good will of t.~is side of the ao~se as well. 50!1E !iON. ML'1BE:RS: :1ut. Sl?EAKEP. (Sin.msl: !iear, hear! Order, ple~se!

On behalf of han . members I would like to welcome to the Speaker's :;allery a former Cabinet Minister ~~d former member of ~~is hen. !iouse, :tr. !iarold Collins. SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! 3!380

December 4, 1979 ~JR. SPEAKER (Si:nms J : MR. JA..'1IESON: Tape No. 1.535 !<1-1 - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a questior. for the Minister of ~~nes and Energy (Mr.

Barrj). ! would like, if he is capable of doing so and I do not mean ~~at in te~ of his talent, some clarification in te~ of ~~e urani~ development in Labrador You may recall that during the Summer session I asked hi~ whether in fact ~~e various impediments had been cleared away with regard to the restructuring of the company concerned, the i~~erit~~ce of the grandfather rights held, as ! ur.derstood it, by a company i:t Europe which were to ~ave been ~ansferred to a company i:1 the Uniced States, which required ~ederal action.

Has that now been acco~?lished? ~~d is the only thing holding •;p the uranium development, from an economic point of vie• .. , or a developmental point of view, the environ:n~;:1tal hearings presently under .. ay? 1-'.R. Sl?EA..T<ER: !<!...'!.. SA.~Y: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~~. Speaker, we ~ave received ~nfo~ation from the federal government that certain requests fer approvals of the joint •1enture between BP.!NEX and Common·..-eale:-. Edi.son have ~en sought from the federal government. ~~d I believe, thinking back, ~~ese relate not only to FI3A, but also ~~e 398:1

oec~er 4, 1979 Tape 15.36 ?!< - 1 Mr. 3arry: Atomic Energy Commis;icn, There are certa~~ approvals required at that level as wel.l. Now, we have been asked ~y the ;~eral Government whether we had given or are prepared to give our •.o~holellearted backing to the Kitts-Michelin project. And, !'.r.

Speaker, as I have recently indicated, this government's position is that we are not prepared ~o give our wholehea~ted approval and backing to ~~e ~tts-Mic~elin project until we obcain cereaL~ better terms and conditions with respect to royalties,with respect to the employment of local people ~~d so for~~~ matters which are now being negotiated, ar~ which we ~xpec~ will be negotiated satisfactorily as fer as tr~s Province is concerned.

So our position is tr~t while the company holds rights, and we have no intention of derogating f.rom 1:-~eir rights or taking away or impairing their rights 1 they are welcome to go ahead and do what they can on tb.eir oo:.m. aut if they want the backing, the wholehearted support of this goverr~ent 1 then it is to be on terms and # conditions which we - reasonable terms ~~ conditions, I might say, which we want to negotiate with them tc improve the situation tr4t we were left with, which was an agreement, a concession agreemen~ entered L~to by previous governments which were not in the best interests of the Province as far as ·.o~e are concerned.

MR. JA.V:.IESON: A supplemen t=y, !1r. Speaker . A supplementary, the hen. Leader cf the o;position. )o!R. Jk'1IESON! I find it difficult to understarn, arn per~aps I can ask a supplementary which will clarify matter~jwith whom is the hen. mi.>tister or the qovernmene negotiati..,g? The SRINEX Corporat:icn. initially, was made up of certain compotents.

For many months now there has been a question of transfer of certain of the holdings or t:h.e shares of a company which was part of the overall group -t:he hen. :neznber shakes his head, I can assure him that this is correct, that t:here was, and I· do not recall which part:icular company but I believe it was a Ge.-man company and one moving over to Con Edison, I believe it was, in 3982

December "· l9i9 l1R.. JAMIESON: th~ Onitec;i Statas. Commonwealth Edison. All ri.qh.tt COIIIIIIOnwealth Edison. Then are those transactions completed and has commonwealth Edison now legally and fully inherited the ~sition of the Ge,l:liiAll company insofa..r as l:h.e Government o.f canada is concErned? MR. SPEAKE.'t (SIMM$l: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy MR. B~: well, there are a number of questions in that one =illcstion , Mr. Speaker. The Leader o£ tl'le Opposition asked, with wb.om are we negotiating? we are neqotiat,ing with aum::c because it is 3R~'( whi.::!l holds the miner~l rights from the Province of Newfoundland . • 3383

;:Jec~E:r 4, 1579 s~ - I am prono~ncing correctly Orang~sells:.a~t enters-=. i.nUJ by 3RI:lEX to obca.:..n fi.:la.nci:-.; anci a :arket :or ter.ninatec that rs~a~ions~p and ent~sd in~ ~~ot~er joint vsnt~s with a large ~.s. \ltility, 't..~e ~til.:..ty ·Nhic:-:., in .:a~c, se:rvice3 :.,.:.,e city o! C~icago in Illinois in =~e Uni~ed States of ~~eri:a, ~~: :iR. JJ. JA!!I:::so.;: ~position. !·!R.. :J. .JA:.-!!ESQ;)i: :·liniste.r of :1i."'les and .::ner;-.1 ::.as sai:i. anC.

I .,ill try ~ capsule !!IY cr.1er/ in this way: If it has not ~een approved,ar.d i~ C 1o:::l..,.., •• ----.-.J. has net because no i~.dication has gone !orwar= fro~ ::.i~ ~~ver~ent i! :-te needs r;ass:.l.:'a.r.ce l:.·..:.t I tr..i::k ::.e Coes, c:-.;.c. i~ is :!OC ~a~able cf goi:1.g a~eac! wit:.. a!'! ac~~z.l sta:': no :<"Latt:r ·,.rhat kinC. of a deal it is reaC.y to make a.nd • ... ·.illi:-.g to ~ake wit!"l t.he c-c~rer:lr.'lent of ~!ewfou.:-.d:a!" .. :::.. 3984

LJecer!'~r 4, 1979 Tape :ro. l53i S"J - : :·!R. :J. .:r~tr:::so~r: over!:.a.ng.i,ng ::nreat, ::.'ut t.'lese mus~ ~ c:;mpleted w::.t!'.in t~e ne:~::: has to scart. Now, t:.e t"l'i'C a.re :.;:.r.~pletely ! sug·:;es::: - ::.ct t:-:: !:o::. to c!.arify t~e tlat.ter fer :.ls? =~ ... T ... !-!oweve=, cf _,. __ , (Si..'"':!!:.S) .:i::.is~e= -=--~--- · --~--·.;. ''!.r. . . . ~.6 .:;~ .:.=.:-::~c:..:.l\:.;.:.;.~ .. :. .. ~-:. - .. .::-·- . -·- -- ...... ~~,.·.(..· __ ._; __ .l :~o::.se~s.;! 3985

3:> - 3 cc~~enci~~ ~~~ ?r?j~:t ~~ p~i:e o: ~3~i~ =~Y ~c=!~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ay no lor . .;e: :~ ·r:. J.:>l~~ !::. ::.a.y :.o !.o~;~r :e -i!C:lr.o-:l.: a: ::· ·1ia:,l!! :..: a.-. \.:.~ciu'l! -:el.l:t takes ?lac·.: ..

December 4, 1979 Tape 1586 EC - l :·IR, aA.."<RY: boa=d se~ u.., '::o i:lear '::.'le objections or t.~e concerns, :.:.1.e co::len":s o: t.."l.e ci ~zens of 'this Pro•.ri.:1ce ·oii t.."'l respect to ~~at project and when ~~at report is in, '::.~is gove~~ent will look at it seriously, ;ive ve':'J serious ccn.siC:eration to t.'1e i~fo=acion contained ~~erein, and ~~en decide ·~e~~er, in fact, we ~'lould approve '::.~e development as proposed. M!l.. J iiMI:::SON: ~- S~EAY~R: (Si~) Lealie:::- of 'ci~e -Jpposi tier •. !·:!l.. J ;.:.u:::s·Jc-l : Mr. Speaker, a final 3U??lementary.

A final Sl.:pplenenta.r~[, the hen. t.ac !'.::. Speaker, t:~is is such a ver/ r already heard it from his colleague, '::.~e distinguished lady, 'ci1e :tir.ister o:: Cons~e: .~f!airs ar.d Envi:onno.ent (:Irs. Ne~t~hook). ':ha:. is not cy point. ~'hat I ar:1 asking t...~e :r .. i::.is~e: - ~d I ~1.i:--.~ ~e is clea.: but~~~ as~ing hi~ for clarification- is that it is ~i;hly unlikely, or cer't.ainl:r ve~J vague at ':..:,is parti=ular ::-.oc-.ent, as to t.ihet'-;...~:- o: ~o':. will take place i!'l '::.~e foreseeable futare regardless of ·•ne'::.'ler a) -: . .'-.e enviro~~ntal studies are accepted ~~d

b) that ~~e Gove~~~e ~f Newf~~•dlan~ ma~es an a~propriate deal. ~P •• 8.'\.-'\?.'i: :1R. JA.:·UESo:;: Nrcng. \irong. lirong. t.~e hon. member'. I! !1: gets ~":e appropriate kine! of econoo.ic deal, if :..~e environll'.en~al arranget:~ents are satisfactory, is he saying t.'len t.'lat the Kitts-Mi~~elin project will then ;c ahead without ~•Y ~elay? !L~. SPEA.'<ER: :.m. SAFJU': The hen. t.'le Minister of Mines and !::1ergy. M.r.

Speaker, O!".ce we nave t.'le adeco·late ecc!".omic: terr.s and conditions negotiated ·..;it:. <::.'le CCl!'.?any, onc:e we nave c:lea.:ed any enviro!"..t:~ental concerns '::.'lat might exist, r ar.ticipate t.:-.at t:."'.ere will be early approvals received from ~~e federal gove~.ent '::.~at ~y be re<;:.ri.:ed and t:<at a start l!'.ay be c~tained on ~'le K.itts-:ti.chelin project in ~e r~asonably near =ut~re. ~e cannot, ~~. Speaker, t~<e :his one s~sp 3987

Oec~er 4, 1979 Tape 1588 ~c - 2 a~ a ti~. This is a ~a~te: wher~, in putti~g ~cc;et'ler· a project, all <iifferen~ features of t.'oe p::oje:::t have to be ;eal: *it.~ in a co-or~~ated fashion. :f not.~ing else were done wi:h resl?e~ :a t.':.is project U."l.til federal gover=ent apJ?rcval >~ere obtained, t.~en t.~ere would be that :nuch g':reat:sr delay. ~Te would til.en nave to start t.~e envi::onrnen'.:al process sol!'.eti::ne in Ja."luary. That would re~ve all poss~ilit:y of a start next S?ri~g on the project i! t.~a~ is what t.~e decision ultimately is.

Conversely, if we said t.~et: we are not c;oinq to negociat.e economic terms ar..d con.Ci.t:icns u."'!til t..~er~ is environmental approval, that *Ould :ean a delay once t.~e envi:on~£ntal a co-ordinated fashion. All of t.~e balls have to be kept ~ in ~"l.e air at t.he 3<Ur.e t.ime, t:.o l.!Se ue juggling a.."l.alogy, ar.d -:...'lat is >~hat we are t...rying t.O do. !tight now, :·tr. Spea.'<ar, •,;e anticipate no proble::-.s. ':he universe see~.s to be unfolding as i'.: s~ould as far as t.~is projec::: is ccn:e:ne~.

If ~~~re a:e ~nv~~nmental concerr~, ~~ey ~ill be =rought ~o the ae-:ention of qovernment anci. we .,..ill have t:.o cieal. wic..~ t..~er::'. .. • '!::!.. NE!~P:t: ~tr • Speaker. !'!R. Si?~'CE!'.: (Si!NI1S) !'he hon. t..'"l.e mel:'.be::: for Lal?oile. :·1.'< •• ~'-?-'i: Mr. SpeMer, in t."'e abs~nce of t...~e :tinister of Labour and ManEXJwer (:-!r.

Dinr.l , •.;ho is ti'.e one who should te answering -:..':is question, I pres=e, if not t.":e :Uniste::: of :1i.::es a::d Energy (ctr. aarrt J - I a.-u not: sure which - but zn'f'.tay, I guess ! will have t.o cii.rec:t mr question to t.."le Goverrur.ent r.ouse Leader (!-Ir. Marshall} . r! . ~1.e Premier were in his seat, I would have t.o aa4 him.

Would t.~e Acting ?remer indicate to tile House what act:ion the governmer.t: have taken on t.~e si'.:~a:::ion in liestern Labrador - Wabush and Labrador City - whe::-e t.~e ~. or:.;e:::s i.."l. t::.ese two mining comm~"l.ities are hop?ing mad about '.:an e~loyees who are going t.c be laid off - received ~;eir noti:::e, and are hopping oad abou~ t.':e fac~ report on oontrac~i~q out in Labrador hest? Orde.:-, please! l(.~o was t."'e ques~ion direc~ed to7 The hon. t.1e P::-esiden~ of ~"l.e Cc~~cil. 3SS8

Ta?e l5oS E:C - 3 c;:uas:..ion was \iire:~ec. :o,=>ut i! !.t '"'as .::l:e:~ec co :.e as Gov-e::-.r~ ::::. ~c~:! I ' ~ ace r, I shall t~e notice o! ~e q~estlon. :1?.. ~Ei\..~: ~"t. S?;:;,;~-?.: (Si=.sl !o: :.a.?oih . :'1?.. ~~~: WoulC :.he r.or.. qa::.c!-a:-:an, as :. se~!.o:- 3989

.:Jece::-;.;er 4, 1979 '!ap-e •• ~. 1589 iJI-i - 1 to co for l..e:otem LlLr~~r,. have t;hey ta.k.~n an:z· .steps at all to trJ to bring some of tne ·.,.ork back to ;.;abush <mci Labracor Cit:i? 1:-:e .non. gentle~~ n~ed not take ~~at uncier acivise~ent, ~~e hon. gen~eman should be able to give the House the iniormatio~ as a senior member of ~~e Cabinet. AN HON. lu:!·!SE~: ~!R. NEARY: He is asking (L~aucible) . ~ ... .!ll, i: t..~e hen. ~inister wants t:o answer. I de not care who ans..,ers but somezocy <;ive t!'\e ;~cuse t.'le infor.r.aticn.

It is ver;;· unusual for t."le !:'J.nister to give up his o::urn to answer a iuesticn. The ~en. ~·!inis -cer o! ~~ines ar.~ Ene :r;:t-. ~~.r. S;:ea.;.;e=-, one o! t.~c first: ~teps taat ;.;a:; taken .,...it.'l ~"le swearing in of t."le new ac!lr..inistration follo;;ir.~ ~:ne e;.ect.ion cf J'o.ll'le 13t.'1 • ._.as ~or us to resuest a :-.eetin:; ;,itll t..-.e i:ier.ior officials of :..:.:.e lron Ore C,:,m~ar~i~ of ca..-..a.Ca.. T~1e ::-e:-etins •,;a.5 t;Olci in r.o 'W."'lcertain te1-:s ~~a.t ·Ne · ... ar.teci to see a c..~a..."'lge in a?prcac: .. ,.. on the

part cf :cc, to t.:."le develcp~.ent of se~onciar::· :..:~C.":oAStr;;· :..~ the Labraccr City/;>~ush a.re:a1 that ;;e wa."l.teC: ~o see s~:e,_.; being taken by that CO:IFG.r.J~ ~o see seconC..:irj' inC.~~zy '::1at is now outside ~ne ?rovi:lc::e locate ·,<i~~in ~:he boundaries of t..'lis Province i and lie saic ~:."lat '-'i! would be monitoring ~is.

We have asked t."le unions in Sabracor City ar.d ·,;ab~h, ·~eas.ked t.:~ ci~:izens of t."le area .:nen ·•e held our Cabinet:. meetings up tl1e.re in Septer.be!:, I ::>elieve. ;·.e had briefs from va.riou:; i.."lteresteci i?arties, ciiscu.s:oed tilis matter "'i th the!:'. t."loroughl:t and asked then• to "'onitor ;;."le situation an<: to infer.!! us if, in fact, t.'le cor. pa.~.y was not living up t.c the •;o:r:~r.i=e.r.::. ·~· hicn .oe received 1 tl'.at t.'le cor.;par.y would ta.i\.e a posiU.'le approach to :seeicc; t.'-lClt b~i.ness staieci ·.,.,·i~h.ir.. :his ?rovi:~ ce. ~·~ow, ~,.,~.

SfeMer, I have no-: receiv~CC. any COJ:'i?laints t l1at things ~ooere :lOt goi;-,~ in t.".e rig;;,_:; cirectio~ i:-t La.brac;or. I canr.ot testify ~'la~ ,. in fac~ , a.nC. I k::o;,.r, as a =atter of fac~ , ~'lat the ~ro=le~ is not :oolved by a.~y stretch of tne im~gL"lation 7 3SSO

MR. "'· ;;.AR?.'i: but I ex;;:ect t.'le ccr.pany to .:.o·.re in a. ne;, direction. I have r.o-::; z:-ecei•.-ed any c:o~r. plaincs cr a."l'f info.::ration ::o show ~;.'lat. t.'ley are ::~ot moving ir. til.is new ~rection. ;:a will :::.a tr.cnitoring the situation and if 10e have to take fw:-:.'ler measures ·~e arc ;?repa.::ed to do :hat. ~lR. S. NEi-.RY : for LAFoile. ~-1..~. s. ~,:.::.; ... ~; A. final supple~r-entary, .. !r. Speaker. A fiaal supple:: .en tary, 1;..'1-e hor. . !1'eJr.be:- ~-tr.

Speake=, this gover.-atrent is r.o-:eci net.. for issuing ulo;:;:.:r.at=.s out ';.'ley are just ::.ecul!'.i!'.g a jo;.;e. '!,le ·:.on. ger.tle::a..'\ .:;aiJ. ~e~r s-a~ o::de:s, i:l~'Cr\lctions -::c ICC, ti:e ~on. ·;er.~le- =n did not inc:!. uc-·~ the Wabush mine in that. stat.e!llent, a."'!d ap;?a.::en tly, t.'1ey just. took it as a jcke. Tney :.ave not ccr".e an:tt!:U.ng a.:::o~t '- ~ FOi~t of orCe:, ~~e non. ?resiCe~t of ;:uestion Period, :-!r. ~;;ea<.e::-, is for t..:1e pur?Ose of asking ~uestions not caking spee~~es. (;-ir. :iearf) if ha has a s~;pple::-entary question to pc-::; t:lE: ::;:uestion :1R.

S. 11EA!i.~: !-ly su.-pler.:e:-n:.a...ry, Sir, ~as tc C::o ;;i t.• cas not. t.:le \·iabush :1ining Company and !vC .:ollo~o·eci out t:1e :.;.liltlac= or ti•e inscructions given by t.'le gover.unenc? 'i<"h~· co ~o·e :lave this chaotic situation in Wabush today? Ten ~rnployees a:-e being laici off be,.,ause of ••ork being contracted out ~o tlle ?rovince of ~l!ebec in other ;:-ar-.s of Labrador, Quebec/Labrador. 'lhat is !::'le ?z:-orle,...

You 111ean t:'le han. gentleman has not heard ~ou~ it'? ;:ell, the han. member for t1enihek (~· l.r. <,al.oh) should ·- ring t.-.e ::on. r;encle::::an up to date. ·-rhe President of t.'le Steel•,orkers G~ion C.c·.;n there i.; on t:."'le ~·ar~at.::. 'llw'it.:1. t..1.e r:ining c:o~.ran~· anC. insistinc:; t..~a.t thesa ~an er.-.ploj'ees net be laid o!f as a result of cor.t::actinq out.. ~ .... y diC. 3331

Oece~~er ~. 1979 ra;:e ;io. l.5S3 Oti - 3 is ::e ferrir.;- e.o a l a.:::our clls?ut.e .... • a.:~. s. ~:c . 3292

December 4, 1979 Tape No. 1590 NM - l MR. !!AaRY: is a clause ~hereby the company aqrees ~~at it will not contract out. Now1 if ~us clause is no:: complied with the union is enti 'tled to initially qrieve the matter, ultimately take it to arbicration. · ~it is a matter where government can in some way play a role,I would expect ~~e union to ~e ~~is problem Jc.-.own. ~·1R. THOMS : l'.R. BA?~'f: from the union ir. question. MR. NEARY: MR. S?::Al<ZR: (Simms J They are asking for a judicial enquiry. I have not recei·ved any communication ~!aybe tr..e~[ should get a new member down tilere.

I will be quite interested in dealing with any such representation that the union might decide tc - They 'Nrote a letter ~o yo~ collea~~e, the l•!ini.ocer of :·!anpower (!'.r. Jinn ) . MR. S?E...~R (Si=s) : Order, please: MR. BAR..q,'f: ! would be quite int~rested in dealing «i t.'l a."ly L"lvol•rement that gover::unent C3.."1 nave in terms of encow:aging compan~es to ~L~tain bus~ness wi~hin this Province, but if this is the first stage of a labour dispute MR. NE.'I.F.Y: Your colleague qot t he letter. Look . M.~. BA..'t.q,'f: - involving the

interpretation of a collective agreement, ~- Speaker - MR. NEARY: No. No . MR. EAR.,q,'f: - the ?rOcess of collective ba:gaining must be permitted to ~ its course and the hon. cember should sto? interferring in that process. No, your colleague has a letter from the Steel Workers in Wabush complaining - The non. member for Trinity - aay de 'Jerde . 3S93

. J De~embar 4, 1979 Tape No. 1390 NM - 2 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would have liked to have asked a few questiens of the ?remier about his ministerial statement DUt since he is in a press conference ! would like to direct a question to the ?resident of ~~e Counci1 1 I guess, or ~~e dcting ~L~ister of Fisheries. AJ.'Ij !iON. MEMBER: The President of the Council. !1R. F. ROWE: The President of the Council, witl'l respect to the Fis~eries Loan Board, Sir. The Fisheries Loan Board, as we all know, is in a complete state of collapse. !here is a =omple~e freeze on it.

There are hundreds of fishermen t~oughout the Province who have their fisheries lo~~s applications approved but there is no money available. There are other hundreds of fishermen ~ho have applications in who have not heard back from the Fisheries Lo~~ Board. I wonder if the ?resident of ~e Council could indicate to ~~e Souse, Sir, what exactly is the status of the reinstatement of the Fisheries Loan 3oard? As ~~e ~nister indicated some weeks ago, ~e would have an answer for this House about this time last week, so ! thin.'< it is about time we got an ~~swer on that ?articular question now. 1-'.R.

S?EAIC::R (Si...'"lll\s) : :OUL !'.A.~r..A!.L: The hon. President of the Cou~.ncil. Hr. Speake:::, as ~~e han. member is aware, it is not a case of reL~statement of ~~e Fisheries Boar1. The ~i5heries Loa.~ Board continues to exist. ·rhe fact of ~"le matter is, as ~f}e ?remier has indicated, there ~as a problem wi~~ respect to ~t. There ~as a run on loans 1 there were a tremendous number of loar.s and applications in, moreso than there was money voted in the estimates, as a result of which, as hon. members in this House are aware, a detailed review of the Fisheries Loan Board has taken ?lace.

That report is just about fi .· .i.sneci :>-jW. It is being considered. l'he first draft of it has been considered by the Cabinet committee and v~y, very shortly now, in ~~e very near fut~re, the government will be able to ma'<e its position clear on ~~e matter. But at this particular stage, ~t this particular time, I think ~~e hon. the Premier indicated by the end of November, in accordance with the way in which the affairs of ~"lis 3S34

December 4, 1979 Tape No. 1590 HR. P'. P.OwC:: government are carried on, at the end of November we receive the report. The Cabinet committee had the benefit on ~~e 30th. of November of re~iewing ~~is report, which 1 as I say,is in the ?recess of being done now. ~~d as soon as we bave finished our review, and as soon · as other questions which we have raised have been answered,we will certainly be making the position quite clear both to this House and to ~,e people of Newfoundland . ~<IP.. S'E'E:rll<ER (SL'"ni!IS): A supplementary, ~,e hon. ~ember for Trinity - Say de Verde. ~. F.

ROWE: The ?resident of the Council indicated that it is not a matter of reinstatement of t!le Fisheries !.oan Beard. Well 1 that may not be so. 3ut when is the government going co do something ~out these hundreds of fi:::oher::~en oct there who have,i:~ fact,engaged builders to build ~,eir boat::; and have entered into agr=e~enc~ to buy boats and are completely hung up out there now?

They cannot final i ze ~~e agreements to have ~heir boats completed: and what ! am just trying to find out is '"her. can we expect a defir.ice statement from the gove~ent on t~~s particular issue so these fishermen can qo ahead and continue to have their boats, longliners built, ~~d finalize certain tentative agreements they have made wi::h contractors or o~,er owners of boats, to purchase used or new boa~s. M!<.. S? EAKER: ~~c<.ALL: The hon. ?resident of the Council. I had thought I had answered the question.

Lest, of course, ~~e impression get around ~~at there have been no loans this y~ar, there have been ~ record number of loans ~,is year. There have been more fisher.nen this year who , "!!."."=. =~en able to avail of loans through ~~e Fisheries Loan Board than ever before. The monies have gone from S2.5 million, to SS.S million to 3S3S

Ce~er 4,1>'79 Tape No.lS9l ~.: .. i-l $8 million to Sl2 :illion,ev~~ in axcess cf Sl2 am!. $13 :11i.!.lion so t."l.ere ~as bee!l great activity. T::ere has been 1110re activity in t.'l.e Fisheries :.can Board t.'lis year t:.."'ar. ever before in its history.

New, I c~~not give t.'1e ::c!l. ger.tleman - I know t.'l.at fishermen are ccncerne~ with respect to t.'l.e ~atter, the goverr~nt is concerned with respect to t.'le ~hole situation and all ! can do is just reiterate the answer I last gave t.'l.e~- --· ; in t."le ve-r:,•, very, near future t.":e whole position of t."le Fisher::.es !..oa.~ Beare for the balance of the ye.s.r will be ~own to this House c:..-:d t.":e general public.

I can assure t.'l.e hen. :ne!!lber t.":at thrcugt: t."le Fist:eries Loan Board or any other aegis, t.'l.is govermr .e::.t .,;ill contb.ue to support the fis~ery :l.evelcprr.ent cf this ?rovince in t."le sa..-ne 'l:ay as it has over the past eight years . Jo!?.. S?~"--'<EP.: (! ~s) .:\. final supplementarj. '!:',e hcl" .• rre~~er for Trini~y - 3ay de Verde, ~ffi.F.F.CWE: ~r. Speaker, tl1e hen. t.'"l.e Eo use Leader ca.-mot jus: ;et away t.ri~h ta!ki..."lg abot:'t. th.e g:eat activi~y of t.'te Fisheries tea.~ Beard. This is t."le preble!:!. 'n:at is t."'e pro~lem wit.'l. the Fisheries Loan Board.

The fact is t.'l.at there were S$4 rr~llicn wort.'t of lca:J.s. issued in t."le last tw·o years '"hich is S48 lllillion more t.'l.a.-:. t.'l.e ;;:revious cwenty-t.'l.ree years and t:."lis is •..;hy t.":e Fisheries Loan Beare is t.~e problem that it is in now. Anc! I would ask. the hon.

Ecuse Leader if t:1e go•Jerr.:r.ent intenes to lau.r.c.'1. some sort of an investigation L-:.tc t."le allesed ;;:clitical interference w~th respect to the Fisheries Loan Board and t.'l.is whol<! business a.i:;out t.':!e fact .... t ' e 1n0ney was just no~ available? t.'tat too ~any loans were approved ~"-n n An~ also, since it is~ final supplementary, ~r. Speaker, is there going to be an investigation into the operation cf the Fisheries Loan Board?

Is there g~~ng to be an infusion of fresh, new capital into it or is there going to be a whole new sche~e,or a whole new systac to replace t."le Fisheries Loan Soard as it presentli' exists? 3936 ·,

Deett!:lber 4,l9i9 :-!R.SP::A<~'!'l: (Sir.r.;;) !'.P .• !ot.l!o.P.S?-!I.r...: Ta;-e :~c . 13 9l ;..E-2 The ~en. ?resident of the Cc~•cil. Wi-::..'1 res:;-ect 1 all ! -:a..'l co :.s ;::.,•e the non. gentleman ~~e answer. I mean he is ~ing a speech when ~e asks his questions , ~e is giving answers tc ~~e questions ~~at ~e is &lreacy raising and the answers ~~at he purports :o give are er.tirel~ erroneous. I mean, t.':.is govenu:tent. will continue to St.."i!PCrt ~"'e !is!::.e::y cevelor::rent of this !?ro•·ince to t:1.e !';Ulest extent that it is capable and that is the situation.

Eecause of the great a~.ivity ~':.at has been spurned in ~~e Fis~eries Lean Bear~ as a result of ~'le fostering 'Jf _ ~'le fisheries over t."le pericc of ~·ears. i: has r~ out cf . money. This is no secret. Sut this goverr~ent is ;oi.•; to1 as it has last yea~, t:a"'.e year before and c=:e year Cefcre t..~at ' . .,:-.en it stam?ec out resettlerr.entiis gcing to ;rotect t.~e people of ~al ~<ewfounclar.d and most especially the fi!;i",ery. ~!'!'l. SJ?::AN:P.: The ~on. :r.el:lber for Terra Nova. ~.:R. u;sr;: ~X.

Speaker, I want to cii=~c~ a couple of ques~ons to t..~e Mi.."\~ster of t,al:our and ~a..,pOwar(~~r.Di:::--.) as i~ effects the ~os~ital 3UF;ort workers. := ~ne lis~ens tc ~~e ~eCia ~~e L,Cication 1 ~r. Spea~er, is ~~at the ministe~ ~as not be~~ in tcuc...., ,,..it..1. the union o: the ?resident of t.~e TreasU--y Eoa:C. to g~~ negotia~ions going so I wonder if ~~e ~ir.ister car1 infcrw ~~2 ~c~~ jl.!St ···hat ini tiati,res he ha.s taker: ,. or ti:e ?resident cf Treasury Eoa.::~ ..

L"l ~'l.e last couple of days to get ~'l.e :-:egotia':ions reacti•rated a.gai:! to ave::t this very serious strike? ~!R.SPSI.n:?: The hon. :·!~is te:: of Labour a.nc Manpower. HR.!:liN!l: Ml:. Spe a.ke;:, r tha!'.k the hon. roe!l'be:: for askir.g a question •••hile r was in the House 'and not waiti.'lg u.•ti1. :: went outside to ask one.

The fact of ~i.e ~ta·.ter M.r. s;eak.er, t~e 1\.ssistant Deputy :-!inister of Labour and ~!anpe\>·er !'las been, ~or ~'1e ?as-. two or t.~ree '><eeks 1 discuss in<; •.d th bot."! sides, talking about ~':e differe!'. t probl~s and going t.i.rough ~e various procedures t.'l.at he neef.s 393'7

;)ecel'1ber 4,19 79 '!'ape No. 1591 r.li-3 ~~ere ~s a poss~ili~:t cf ~et ~ir.g :c~h sices bac% ~o t:.e ~able, ~o see if ~~ere is so~ $ol~~or. ~~at csn :e reac~ec cy ~ay o! ~~go~i~~ior. ~ anc conciliations to avert!l'lg a •1ery se.rio\1.5 si::-.:a::ion t.."lat: ::es eeve!opec i.n this .?rovince. Y.R. S?~'<ZP.: (Sit~msl hon. !!lell'ber for Terra ::ova. :•-'!.. U:Sr.: ;.. sapple!l!ent<L.-y, a C<Jick one. T!:~ l'!r. Speaker, -:!U.s v.ic;l: t be a =t~= of c!arif:.catior. raeer t.':an .1 ~uestion. Ac;C.r., a ::o1.:9le c£ c~ys ac;c t."te ~:1eral :~a.'\ac;e: of N;..PE, !..n refere.'\ce to t."\e a!:~lit.:t 3938

Decexnber 4, 1979 Tape 1592 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: of the hospitals to provide services i."l the event of this strike 1 he made some recommendation to the fact that if this union, if NAPE c~~e under the Labour Standards Act of this Province,tha~ some provisions could be made for providing essential services. And the questicn raised by the general manager was that they have asked to get under the Labour Standards Act. And my question 'to the :ninister, one, is there any advantage i.:1 the NAPE workers coming under the Labour Standards Act?

And secondly, if they did 1 wculd the situa~ion change2 :-iould this provide the hospitals to be able to come up with :neet:.i.!".g assential services, if they came Lmder the Labour Sta:-.da.rds Act? MR. SPEA.'<ER (SL'IMS): I will allow a quick answer from ~~e hen. Minister of Labour and Man;>ower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, it is very diffic~lt to give~ quick anSTNer to the hon. member. First of all, he is totally incorrec~.

The fact of ~~e ~at~er is 7 in order io~ ~~em to :e able to go to the Labour Relations Board for essential employees ~hey would have to ~e ur.der The ?ublic Service Collective 3argaining Act, no~ the iAbour Standards Act. The fact 'that some of the i~stit~ticns are under The Lal::our Relat:ions Act - Tne Labour Standards .'l.ct in the Provi::.ce, is these institutions cannot apply for essential employees.

Whether they were or not 1the fact of the matter is t~at under The Public Service Collective 3argaining Act attempts have ~ean .,_ade to get essential ~ployees named, and ~~ese attempts have gone on almost ad infinitum since 1977, which was when the first case went to the Labour Relations Board, was referred to the courts and overturned. Subsequent applications have been :nade because the courts had ruled ~'lat they had '·' ot! m<i.d~ on a name basis, you had to name ~he employee, and subsequent - AN HON. MEHBER: (Ina.udiblal . 3~39

Dece:nbe:r 4, l9i9 Tape 1592 P!<. - 2 MR. S~~~ (SI}~S) =I had indicated I w~uld allow an ~~swe~. a ~ick answer. ~!R. DINN: subsequent appiica:::ions have been t:.ade to the Labour Relations Soard which have been appealed by t~e court, and the next hearing is, I believe, January 5th. or 6th, but it is in that area. So nothing can happen until the appeal on the last application which was by, I believe, the Central Newfoundland Hospital, nothing can be done until that appeal is dealt with in the courts. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The time for Oral QUestions has expired.

J?RESENTDIG El!:l?ORTS 3Y 5'!'A.'IiDUIG AND SPE:CI.;L COMMITTEES ~. SPEAKER: The hen. ~tiniste:r of Rural, Agricultural, a~d Nor~~ern Development. MIL GOUDIE: Thank you, !o\r. Speaker. In accordance with ~~e Fishing Indus~y Advisory Board Act, 1975/ I table the Fishing Induscy Advisory Board financial s~temen::: for the five months ended the 31st. of August 1978. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communica:::ions . MR. 3RETT: Mr.

Speaker, I ·.;ish. to table ~!1e S:ig~way Traffic Fees Regulations as amended under The HigFway Traffic Act,and The S:ighway Traf!:ic Bus Regulations under the iiighw·ay Traffic A.ct. A..-..SWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR >-IHICH NeTIC:: ?:AS 3EEN ~IVEN MR. 5PE:~: The hen. :1iniste:r of Cons=e:r Af!airs and the Environment. MRS • NEwtiOOK: Yes: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond eo the hon. member for the Straits of Belle Isle (~z. Roberts) wieh regard to an update on the flcuride standards of the ERCO e!llissions. I would like to inform him that my department uses the aabient air approach to air pollution control.

The air in the countryside, anywhere in the Province should have a quality as described in our standards. Ar~ previous to 1973, in the Long Harbour Valley the standards for flourides were exceeded, and a compliance progra=e was prepared by :::RCO to reduce their air emissions so that the flouride standards would be consistently met. And the Newfoundland flouride standards are; gaseous flourides,

Tape 1592 PK- 3 !!Irs. Newh.ook: one ~ .per billion for twen~y-four ho~s or a half a. P<l~ pet billion per thirty hours, ;?er thirty days I am sorry. And tc;~ta.J. flourides ~wo parts per b.i.l.J..ion for twenty-four hOur:& or one part per billion for thirty days. i\l'ld £lour ides i!I.S measured in the veg~tat.ion samples is t ·hirty-five part per ml.llion for each sample. Now, ttco recently experienced problems wit..'l their flouride con·trol equipment. Alld I am sorry I was not aware of tbat yestl¢day when I responded to your question. The le"'els ;neaS'.tted at the stack doubled in la·te OCtober.

Tape 1593 EC - 1 Severa.l uns~cc:essf'.ll :nodi!ications '.4'ere maCe du:ir.g ~ovoe::-.lJer to irnprcV"a im;;7rovements. Finally, last. ·.;ee.~, E?.CO !:!a.d·e s:.iccessful il:',;Jrove!!len~s anc:! suck sampling perfo::med on ~cel:lber lst and Dece::lber Jrd showe;d decreased fluoride emissions similar to the July to Septe~~cr reac:!ir.~s. ~.R. :CBE::t'!S: MR. ?.:l3i::RTS: or by ERCO'? ~~..S • ~~ .... r-!.JOK: M?.. FC3ER':'S: Decreased'? As sampled by ~~e minister's officials Yes, right. Yes, but which? By ~~e nL~ister's officials?

The samples were by the minister's officials'? ! really c~~~ot tall you ~~at, whether t.~ey were sampled ~~ our :nen or by EP.CO peOple? But it was t..lo].eir reports anyway to us. They evaluated it. r~W"hose ::-e?Ort. -~~as it'? The ~epor"": of my depa:-'tlnent, ~·~ic."'l I pres=e ~ey c..'leck.ed. ! really ca . .''Ulot tell you ::or sure on ~'lat. Could ~~e m.i..-.is~er c...~e~k or. :.."lat for ·;.s? C1P.S.

NEiHOOK: ~'le recent upsets. ~lormal stack e::U.ssions can be s=.c;rized - ctain stack., tilirty-five to one ht.11'1drec:! pounds; ,;;:-ellet cooler, for~::! to ninet:· pounds; tapping fu::~e, twenty to forty pou..~ds, etMing a total of ninety-five to 'tWo hundred a."ld ~'lirty pounds per day of gaseous fluoride, and t.'ti.s brings E.1lCO wi~'l.in ~'le standards.

During ~'le ~ovember upset,when ~,ree hundred to four hundred pounds per day of qa.se'l•J'> fluoride . .,.ere: emitteO::. from t.."le C'.ain stack, aetbient readings in !.eng Harbo= exceeded our t:-w·enty-four =:.our sta."'lda.r:! of one part per billion on four occasions only. The ~i.i:rt:r day sta."'ldard of a half part ?er billion was not exceeded, and readings in the Long nar~our valley did not exc:eec t.'1.e standa:rds. '!:':.is is t:he report on ~'".e ai:r poiluti :m. :-!?.. P:C'3 E:R'!:'S : (Inaudible) ~heck. that (inaudible).

Decelrlber 4, 1979 Tape 1:593 :::c - 2 Yes, ~~d if you ~ould like to drop in to our depar..::~en~, we can show you the repor...s and you can see -:.1.er.. for yourself. ~1P.. ROBERTS : estimates? Is the minister asking me by to see your No. I am going to reply here - and ~'lis is to t.'le hen. the ~::-.ber !or 3aie 'Jerte He asked a question wit.~ regard to t:.e interest being charged by loan co~:~Panies on s:nall loans. ! -::.:u.n;.; I told hi::~ at -:.1.at t:i.:;:e t:.at :;: :iiC. not know of any :OC!plainc in my c.e.,a..""CCent.

I have checi;eC. since t.1.en and it has been confi~ed t.~a~ we have not received one single oo~lain~. I have since ~'l.ecked wit.1. t.1.e federal office here and t.1.ey also say t.1.a-:: ~"ley have nof; :eceived a co~laint. ! do ha"le c.1.e a·=t ~ere o:,.;hic."'l gives t."'le :-at.e of interest t.c be c.'l.arged on . tilese S!i~.all loa."'ls. I ca.""J. reaC. it t~ you if you a:e not awar~ of ~~is. <\!1 liON. !.Z~GER: (Inaudible) • hell, ! jus~ ~ave ~~e ac~. r c~~c~ (!nau~le). Yes. nlrignt, t.'len. A...'l t!ON. :.'"":-!BE?.: Juse tacle it (inaudible ) .

Yes, very good t.'le:-:. 3ut I would like to say, ~~ouqh, ~•a~ my depar~.ent has been no~ified by t.1.e federal gover~~ent t.1.at ic incends to ~end t.~s ac~ or repeal it. And! wo~ld like,also,to say to tile hon. me~r.Cer t:"lat if he has 3II'J speci!ic complaints and ~1e woul;i like to pass along the details to ~1 cepartment, I ~ould be ve~! glac to investigate ehern !or hi=. An hen. lady. Order 2. MR. SPS~ZER: (Simms) Co~ttee of t.~e ~~ole on a bill, "An Act 1'o Re•;ise Ar.C. Consolidate ~e :.aw P.el~ting ':o ':'~e Establish::::enc And ~cl..i.inist.:ation Of ~· !'..L-ricipal Gove~ilt\ent !:1.

T!".e Pr.:lvi:-~ce .. "

::ecer..be::- 4, 1379 Tape lS~3 :::c - 3 On tr.otion., :.~at ~~a :louse r~sol ve i~elf inca a Coi!'.I'Iittee of t.i.e \'ihole on said 3ill, ~tr. Spea.<er left t..i.e Chair.

4, 1979 to Cla~s~ 109 a~d 110. ..t.'t. S. :;<;;;..-=<.Y: Tape · · ~ .~v' 1.~94 Si:J - l The non. w~er fc: ~a?oil:. !1r. C~airma:l, ir. :ase hon. me:ru:,ers Clauses 109 a~d 110 be deleted from ~~e ?reser.t act goi~; ~ough the ;£oiJSa beca~sc w·e feel it is ·~nde:Jo:lc:atic, Zecause it will li·1~ j,r, :r.;micipalit.ies :~ve a pro;er~y ::.ax s:..ou.ld be le.=~ :lJ:: t:o tl1e ,?eople, shc:.:ld !:e lc:.f:. ·i.l~ to ~::e :nayor a:-.d .::;:..;.nci!.lors anci to that is why we :noved. t:te air.e~~~er.~. Mci so far we :-:a.ve r-.ot haC. :....~c ~e .::a:.e i:. ~e.re yesterday ..::.::.:-.. ?..

Oi; :::lac:.: ~cc;c wi~::. al.: t:.'l.e justifi:a:ior. ~he ~~~is~er ·~~s give~ fo: usir.g or =is~sing ~~= This ~over~. er.t told ~s :ricr eo t.'le June lBt~ election that t.t.ere .,.-oulc be r:.o increas~ in t<!.:ces =.r.'" eve.= since 1 all they have doni! is find cievioOJs vay3 to ~o t.h.r~ugn ~l~ backdoor what t.~ey said t.~ey would not jo through the front door . L'l t:..,e taxes on i:lsurance pre."ni '..:.:tS, '"'e :"lave seen every pe~i:. A via tio!". ;;as ta~:. ~~e aviation gasoline tax - Car licences. · - car licencas have i~creased, eve~y 4GOS

Oece~er 4, 197~ '=aFe ~lo. 1594 SD - 2 t::.at =~~ fees ha•Te incr~3sed. .. . e. J~U:::SON: ~·!...~ .. ~. i'JZA? .. Y: - Zlaz increa.seC., ~a~'i::.; t..-:e: ~aZi:s as ;;.y '-':.en. :rier~C: Cai"S. ;...:.t ;:~~;. ::::::J!:::t: SO:·!!: HOi.i. :Z:"'.3Z?S: vi":, ch! -in prc~est ever ~~is :ill. af~~~ P:::ess Ga.llerJ. .•.ssociat:.ion, deliverec! to :ne t:.ocay whil~ ! '"as in eaucus,when I could no~ get a c~nca to 0 et a ~a:~ a~ her. ~io, ~ will r.ot read it out :".lt ~ ·,:ill read ~~e reflY if the hen. ;entleman wa~ts it ~ade yesterday -i!l cor..:"'.ectiot'l 'Ni=.h ca:tai:" .. ref=es:-:.~er.t.s 4006

December 4, 1979 Tape 1595 ?K- 1 ~..r. Nearv! in the filL~g cabinet of the press gallery, that if you went in and participated in these refreshments you had to exop scme~~ng L~ the cup. And, you k."low, this is relevant, Sir, because it has to do with coverage, coverage of the House on tr.is particular !lil1 a."ld especially on Clauses 109 ar~ 110.

I did not remember yesterday, Sir, that some of tl'1e main culprits -...ho are participating in these refreshments were ministers and members supJ?orting the government. ."uld is it any wonder that the President of the Press Galley sbould try to play little political ;a:nes "rJy having Cba~-mouth for 3onavista lMr. ~organ). raise it during the MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIR.'1AN (BAIRD): ~point of order. Sections 109 and 110 - what the hor.. member is talking about is coll!pletely irrelevant to the amendr.!ent. HR. JAMIESON: Talking abcut property tax in a filing cabinet, MR.

CHAIRMAN (3rl.IRDJ: On the point of order. ~gain,while it is not easy to deter~ine - It is relevant. MR. C.'!A!P.Io!AN it is a !lorderline. I would again remind t.."le ::nember to be relevant. ~IR. NEA.."tY: ------· We111 as I started to say, Sir, when I '.'as sc ruC.ely interrupted by the han. gentleman, it is very ur.likely that I will get any coverage of my few remarks on these two clauses. It is rather unfortunate, l'.r.

Chai.r.na.n, and I think I went to great: ?<!ins during my remarks yesterday to say that only some members of the press gallery, some, not all, but unfortunately somebody has ~sinterpreted what ! said and tarred everybody with the same brush. It would h:.ve been tar t::.'!tt.er .~. r. 1 ~"lairman, instead of trying to play little political games on the =lcor of this House - it is unparliamentary , by the way, it is against the rules of t~s House for anybody outside of this House to send a note down or a letter down and have somebody raise the matter on the floor cf the House 4007

December 4, 1979 Tape 159..5 PI< - 2 Mr. Nearv: under the di~guise of a poi.~t of privilege. It is not pezmitted in this House, Sir, not permitted. My own concern yesterday about coverage of the House is shared by a great many Newfoundlanders and by a great many members of this ~ouse. and instead of playing these little political games with my ramar!<:s through a government member: it ·~uld have been more useful and more constructive if the President of t~e Press Galley would just reflect on what I said,which ... ere statements a fac~and take whatever steps are necessary. ~IR. MORGAN: MR.

CHAIR."!ii.~ (BAIRD) : MR. !o!ORGAI.'I: a point o-f explanation. On a point of order, ~. Chairman. A point of order. Mr. Chai...-man, t...'le point of order may be ruled as 9ut, first of all, the bon. gentleman,L~ his comments just made 1 is totally incorrect. There ~as no little note sent to me to raise the point of privilege in the House today, sent to me by any ~ember of the press gallery, nor of t...~e Press Galley Association . .a.r.d, ~.r.

Chai=an, the fact that this matter is now before th: !Speak~r of the House, the fact that the point of privilege is now before t...'le House ' of Assembl¥, it was raised by me, spoken on by the Opposition Bouse Leader , hcu; n= ::~een rul.ec: on , ~herefore the hen. gentleman who is now speaking on the poi.'lt of privilege is completely out of order. .MR. CHAIR.,..AN (BAIRD) : With regard to the point of order - SOH<: liON. MD'..BZRS : MR. C!iAIR.'1.i\,~.\l: Regarding the point of order again I would like to remind the hon. gentleman for Lal?oile (Mr. Neary) of relevance and carry on. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the hon. member for Sonavista South (Mr. Morgan) is so stupid that I think he is going to ~~e a career out of it. Sir, the - ;low, the hen. gentleman admits that he was trying to suck in with the press, tr'Jing to suck in. F.e has a tendancy co call up the media and say , "took, why do you not ask me cuestions en this". The Premier has silenced him, but he h.as a t:enda.l".cy to call up and say, "Ask me a q'.lestion about this ar.d I will answer it for you". 4008

December 4, 1979 MR. JA.'1IESCN: MR. NEARY: MR. MCRGA..'l: MR. NEARY: MR. JiUUESON: SOME l'.CN .ME.."'BERS: MR. CEA.l:::!M&" (BAIPll) : :-!R. NEARY: SOHE liON. ME!o!BERS : )!R. MORGAN: (ir:a~c!ible) (inaud~~e) :-!R. CHAIRMA..'l (SAIRD) : MR. THOMS: serivus MR. JANIESON: be a brass band. SOME HON. ~~ERS: MR. :!C!tGAN: MR. CEAIR.'!AN: MR. J;...'!IESON: M.."l.. ~!ORG;\N : MR. WA."FEN: sU!Ulurned. Mit. JAMIESON: MR. NEARY: ~_;L"!.Y: quiet name him. MR. Cl'.AIR.'!AN: M!'.. N'"""r.AR'! : MR. CHAIR.~: ~R. !TEJI.P.Y : Tape 1595 P!< - 3 r.:ore t!:"lan Archie aur~'<:er. And he is more humourous than Archie a~'<:er.

Is the hon. gent1em~~ jealous? But any way, Sir, - But any way, Mr. Chair.nan, - Oh, oh! Order, please! My main concern about - Oh, oh! I am cead serious vou are resianin~ Order, please! Why do you not resign arA we will take that If not air was ~usic t~e hen. ;entle~an would Oh, oh! ~·r.j~,~ i~ ~~~ ~rovir.ee any;..ore (inaudible) Order, ;;lease! ~!y son, you :r-.mning down; .. ~iet! ( Inaudi!:le) resi·;nir.g two weeks frorn now, I :;uess. He talks so much his ton~~e is going to get Keep your big mouth shu~. Your Ror.our has called order. order, please! Name him, Mr. Chairman. !f he does not keep Order, please!

The hon. member for LaPoile has the floor - rhank you, Mr. Chairman - - and has the right to be heard in silence. - for restraining ~~e rne~~er for Eonavista Sout.'l (!'!r. r-!crgar..) , Sir, ~he has cont:-it:uteC :L".o::-e 4Cf}9

~ce~er 4, 1979 'Ia.<>e ;;o. 1596 c~; - 1 !~ .. ; • ::.E:;.RY: :0 lowering tb.e decoru:::. of thi.s ~ouse than ~"'1~' ot.."l~r r.:2r..i':er in ::.ere. An~ tile ilon. s.or.tle:u.ail r.o .. - i.'1 his attea.pt - :-11\. Cli..'UPl·li.:.;: (1:.A.I!Ul) HF.. S • 1-iE.A~ : 109 and llO are beins disc'JSseC.. wile na.s been !ollo..,ing ~e ciebace very carefully, ;r,y ~.a.:.., conc:e= a.:::out t::;e c:overase of the liouse of .-sser-.bl:z •..ra.s t.:-.a.t t.'"le :.nfor:nat.:.on :-11\. J. NCt>.C;...:i, (in.a:Jc:!i.Cle) any::tore.

The last tit",e we ·~eard frcm ti".e ;:-.ea:ber for aonavista Sout.'-1 (!~. o!orqan) he was out .;:ullir.g t.;,.e little lsgs ~·lF .. ~. ~•znro: or.., listen t:o t:"le ~is~er .,ho represen~s starv~nc; cattle in aonavista. :~1r. C..•G.irman, coulci we get t:"'~ P~;:.:~~r =:ack in t:1e ~ouse to tri' to restr~'l the hon. oinister. :ie is e!:"ba.r:a-?~~::; ~1.is collaas-ues anci tile: Prerr.ier, a source of e::-La..r:-assr..:nt.

So, any .. ;ay sect.ions 2.09 and llJ ~ Sir, it 3eeD"'S ~o me t.hat ~~e f~ll i;::c:a.ct:. of t...~ese t'A-·o sections of ~tis r::l.!.."lici:;a.l 3ill i1ave not yet filtered tilrougn to the :;-.:ople of t.U.s :c>:::ovir.ce. .;c.c ;te~! And t.~at i~ ~:-,_y I '1"1/a..;:; cc~lai..."'lin~ :·est.erciay ~out. t:,;;,e .:~verac;e a.1.d. ~·i.r.

C..,.airman, it •.-:o~~ have "'een far ~etee:> in3caad cf ="'ick.l.r.g r.,e u? anC 1:-aki:-.g a nega:ive az,Jproaci:. to =..y fe;.,· rer&.:.a=~s concez:ni:- ... g t . .'-:a =s;:or"ti.:".J', ~~..; cove:::ac;e froo tiU.s l:.o\!Se1 i~ •,;ould have i::;:en far betl:er if t:~e i':::e::;s Galleey· lt.a<i proceecied wit.'-1 .?Qst.'-:aste to tr£ to brine; the ~r.icro~hcr.es c.nti Ule l;elevis.:.on camera.; en the floor of this House so t.'".at: t.-.e peo,;:le c:an see -.,hat is goin; on. ;o wat the people can see the Goverr.l!'.e::lt in action, so that t.'le o:eople can see ti1e C.f·posi tion in action, so t.'la t t.'le pec.<>la c:an he= t.'".e speect.es a:;oce aoout

section l::l9 ..n.:i ll::l of t.'lis Bill, so t.'lat t.":.e people coulci s· _- tlow cie~r.oc:ratic t:C.is pa:::ticular piece of legis:ation reall:l is .. That .. s YlY conce:-:1, Sir, ai."l.c:i i~ ·w·oulC. ~1ave :::;ee:r. far i..etter instead o!: senciing ·::e little le-e.ters ~o.·:~en I a;r atter.<i.:.nc; :r.eetings_. if -e.hey l·;oulC. take a constr:.:ctive approac;,., anci instead of 4Ci.O

Decer..ber 4, 1979 Ta;;:e :lo. 1536 ::;~·; - 2 i•!R. S • :-ili.l>.RY' : acceptir.; ~1~ word of t.:,e Go,;·ern=.er.t b.ou.se ~ader (:·!r. t1arshal1) ::hat ·.;e ara nee goil'l.Si eo nave ti".e eele- vision or microphones on t."e floor of the :iouse, e."lae ehe~i s~a!"e will see t.'le t-'"'11~'1 and t."lere will i:.e no need o! playing politics on ce floor of ~"l:.s :iouse, of 'Nho is right or ..-no i;0 wrong, the feople ,..ill see it for the~~elvesr ;,.."ld in thi;; electronic as-e that i.s the way it shoulC. ~e. v~-:lat are we a!:-aiC o!? .. nac is th.e government afraic of?

So I ;..·ou!C. say, Sir, ::.y rer-a:-ks · .. ;ere [:"!.aC.e in a ~el?ful waj ~ot to ~inder ~~= progress of ~~e re~c~ins c= t."l.is House ar..d if I embarrassed ar.~·J::ocy in t.'l<o l?ress GallerJ r a!:'. sorr-1 for t.:1at i:;ecause I "'ent to grea:: pains i::o Saj· ::hat t.'ler.: '"'as only setr.e r.ot all! I underline, 'no:: all: ~:r.

C.'lairr..an! do not like t.us attie:1ce of'I ·,.·ill get so a."ld so, I will get ehis one and I ·~ill ~et :...~at one' ~l.at ! !1ave ~-.eard so often ar':)t:r.d t:.he ccrricior;:; of t:his neuse. •~,;e ·,;ill Sl!' .. ear, 'Ne have cur :.echn~-1_ue:s an.C. our ~·a;:~s in -:..~e pr~ss to c;e t Ol..!r li t-cle C.ar~s in .and our little j~es in'. Is t:-.. at t..""le wai' t"o report t:-.e ~eo~le • s bl,J.sine~s.? ;.. poir.t of orCe:::-, ~tr .. 5~ea.."<er .. ;.. 2oin:: of orcer, t.'le nor.. Sovenur.en:: ccuse r:.ea<.ier. This is tctall:r irrelevant, :!r. cr.airr.:an.

Tne c;,uestion :before t.'le C:'lair :1o..- is t.-..o.t sectio:-.s 109 anG. ll::J :::e deleted. ~he ~en. gentlerr.an ;.,as sper .. c. t..;le last: :fe~ !'iotc.ent-3 ~alj.;,ir.g atout the reporti:1.g of th.e ~ress a...~ci television in tile b.ouse an.C. ,,. .. nat have yop, •,;;uch i.s totally, coi:".pletely anG. absolutel:r irrelev=<:. is not t.'le subject before t:r.e Chair at. t.'1e present tir.:e. If t~e ;'len. gentleman wishes to make observations like ~.ae there are ct~er ti~es anti p:J.aces where he ca.'l do it !:.ut he car-'lct ·..:s·J.rt! the ti=-.e ·)::: t;::.is ;c~ittee by s~eakin; en ir~elevancies.

On the poir~t of order r ~A.ill a·;ai::. remind t.!'le !r~.tncer for l.aPoile to kee~ ~is cowr..~:lts to Clause 109 ana llJ .;:lease.

~\i - 3 Clausa:.> l.:.l9 a.;.d .no ~ave :.ee.n r.:.a .>l.l.C ject of c.e.:.~ta i:: t.'li.; i-.c•.:.;e fur ::he la.3t. ~1eel:.1 a:-~ so far .,e ;,..ave ::.o~ =eceived a satis;ac=ory =:~:;:16.-'"l-a ­ tion f:oc: t..~e r~st..e =. ~ ;e have :_~_ac sorr.e 1.r.!ish y -'.t~a~h:i s:aterr.er.c.s b~i ;.he ::l.L"'lis::er of ... h ~i it is n.eees sart :or the mi-::-.:is:.er :o cott~ ;.n t -o :..:..~e r.egislar.w:e anc legi.;lace tr..e _;lropenr tax in tilis ?:-ovin~/ ~o::et.r.i:~g e...~ac r:.o ciniste r, no :;cver.-.::e .n c .tas =een 4012

~ecer.~er 4, 197~ ':ap~ ~·!o. 1597 SD - l :~ .. s. ::E~~-Y': able to do.

The :;.ir.iscar ~--·ent o:.:.t to Gander a...~ol said to t.~..; Federation of 11ayc::-s ~ncl ~·tu:li~i;alit.ies, ":.ock, if :lou ~-·a:1t services is fine, t..~er2 is r'.ot:"l.i~g wrong wi~, t:1a~, i~ i.3 a C.e:cnc:a:.i~ :oi.Ult.:y we live in and if the :ninister ~-a~~.3 ~o ;-o a!"'.C. a:.ak~ a f,:)ol of h.i.~self :..~at is up to r...imself. 3-.le t1-le =rini.ater sn.o~C. =-~c~ t.i.Se :.1.is :-:ou.se :o inflict his idS:a. a::.t.i his id.eolcgy an.:i ~i..s pniloso~t".J· to come i..''l a~ci say, n:.oolt, I told you i-n ~a~C..ar, you ara oot ;sr=':i:-.; c..~s u.~.less you ~ut t..~e ?rope=~Y ~ax .!.:-.. ~. ~'..lt C.o ::c-c ma...<e it t:-.. e l.aw of t.:'!e la..."ld, do !".Ot :nake it :nandatory.

And C.."lrl.C is t:.."le r.'!essa-:e sho;.tl:! be as::=.ed of' i t:self, show.;.i :oe as caned :::;ri:-.gi.--:; this office now wh~n ~ to~ council comes in from a ~! community where t:hey are carrying water in buckets and ~sinq the outdoor toi!~ts, ~"'le =ti.'"li.ste~ 'Ni~l say, "Look, it is ne:: ::".:.-' fa:.lt =c~·, r d.iC. net ::la.<.a t:.:',is l~:..;, t.'la:: W".3.:S ;;.tad: ...:p i!'l t.'le ::iouse of A.sse~l-./". ':~at is '"~,a~ the ::t.i.."lister ... ;i!.l co jus:: tl':.e s=.e as g~ver~"":le::t ·~~~~e.:--. t;1e:' Now t:!:ey come i::~ the i-!euse .anc say, "1-lell, we did not de it, t.'":e Public Utilities soard.reco~2e~Ced i:". ~~d t~a~ is the kLid a: game the cinister is playing and t.~:: is a c~ue!. gaoe ar.c it is not fair ~~die is not ri;~t. ~~I wo~ld like to know, as! sai: yesterday 1 •,.;hat the =ae!±g::- for 3ay :;,f I.slar..ds (:·i.r .. r...

WooCrO'olo")-t!O'.I/ he f~els about ~1-lis, 'ior..; his constitcent.s are goir.:; t:J feel w~:~:i.

.,;. . ~·-·· -·- ; MR. ITOOD.ROW: MR. THONS: MR. WOODROW: ........ :.~. :? .. 'f: "!ot.O .u-a or..:.:,· Clllp!oying politics in this. (Inaudible) help your people . ......... --~ ... ---;o~ ·:. - -· ... ; -· ___ ..:., (Inaudible) intelli;ent as you (inaudible!. Or.::i:r pleas-= • :t is not good e:1euc;h, :·!r. Chai.:::ma.-., and I call upon all c:::I".s::ie:-.cio'"s legislatior.., or 5-_~.~.: .... z-• .; :09 and llO of t..~s ·:.ict..J.~cri31, i..:.ncor.stit:~ .. ;.::io:-. ..:1 ar~ non-d~oc=~tic piece of legis:~tior.. h~ar, ~ear. Shall ,..=.,...-·., ----.;.. .;,1.1 :~cse in ::avour ·~ye•, ::ontzary 'na'J', in ~y ~pi::io:t ~~~ ·~=-:rs' :-.ave it.

oece:r.be: 4, 1979 Tape 1539 ::.:: - l Order, please! The division on ~~e ~~endmen~. All t.":.ose in favour: '!he !'len. tile !.eaO.er of t.'"la Cpposi tion, :-tr. !:iod.:.er, :u-. F. !'Dwe, ~.r. Thol!la.s L~h. )o'.r. ::eward ::?oberts, :·tr. S. :,;eazy, Mr. 'l'lloi!IS, ~1:-. F. White, Mr. Tulk, :u-. :-!cores, !·1r. F-ollett, ~r. liar:::en, Hr. ?.isc:cck, Mr. Bennett. Those against: ~he hen. t.~e ~nis~er of Mines and Ene:gy and Industrial Development (:~r.

Ea:rry) , t.'l.e hen. t.'":e !tinister of !.ands and Fores::s (:·!:. ~tcr<;~"l), :he :-:cr.. t.":.e ~!J.niste: of Const.:~r.e: Affai:s a.'ld Environment (.l1rs. Newhook), t.~e hon. t."le ~linis::er o: Pu!:llic Works and Se:vices {:'lr. 'loungl, t.':e M.i::iste::: . of Touris::t, ?.ec:::ea.tion and Culture (:1:'. !'c•,...er) , i:."le hen. t.."l.e ~linister of r..a.bour anc :·~powe::: (:·tr. :Ji:m) , t.i·.e hon. t."le :-tiniste: of ~tunicipal .1.f:airs a.::C. EcusL-:q (Mr.~. Windsor), -=-~e hen. t:'le ~!ir-.ister of Finance (::lr. J.

Collins), t."le hon. t..."le Pr2sident of t..~e Cou.,cil (!"!:-. :{a:shall), t..~e :,.en. the ~~ir .. is~er o! Trar.s?Qrtatio!'l anC Commurtica~ions (:1:. dret:), ~~e her.. t:.e ~..i:1ister ot P.ura.l, Ac;ri::ult.l.l.ral and Nor-:..';.ern Developoen~ (:·!r .. Goudi~), -:.,_e h~n. o;.";.e 1·1i...~ister of Educa~on (Ms Verge), ~~e ~0:1. 1:..~e Y~n:..s~er of Eealt.~ .. (:·!:'. c:ouse), !-1:'. Doyle, ~.:. Walsh, !-!.:'. 5 tagg I :-tr. R. Colli.r .. s, ~...r. J. C-U'ter 1 ~r. ~..roC~.ey 1 ~'!.r. ~awe, !'-4'..:. Pa-tterson, ~1:. Aylward, !-!r. ~-loociro~· 1 ~r. :•1::.tiic..1.olas, :-!:.-. seewa:-:..

I::. -:rrt opi:1ion t...~e •:.;ays' have i~ - four~sen for a.~~ t~ency-five aqai~st. ca:ried. On ~~tion, clauses lQl ~~roug~ ~lQ, Shall clauses 111 t.."lrough 120 ca:~t7 The hen. t:'le member for Grand aar.k. Mr. Chairma.'l, I was ·..-oncering in c:cnnec--ion .,..ith

Section 116 '"'het:.~er or not t.'le minister could advise I:".e of t.'le status of Crown corporations u.-:.der this particular - 'ioill Crown corporations be taxable now or not? MR. N. WI:SDSOR: The goverr.ment depa:rt~er-.ts· (inauci1lle). l".R. TF.OI15 : Are t.."ley ir. cl ~ded ir. the - t.'ley are not specifically included. ! was ·..-onderir.g if t.-.,ey are ex~s-.ted u~C.er -:::is particular

section or net . 4015

Oececber 4 1 19 9 t·!R. 01.\IP.l~: {l-1:: • Baird.l Affairs a.nd Housing:. ~a,pe 1598 EC- 2 The hon. ~~e ~linister of Muni~ipal They are not specifically exclucied ne:::-e, .Mr. Chair.na.'l, but I would assUI!le they cot:te under the sallie a.mbit as l:)rovinci:al gove.rnment propert:t i:lasic:a.J.l.y. They COllie under ~~e s~ clause as prOvincially owned properties, so ~'ley a.re the:::-efore exe::npt. The hon.. ~'I.e ::~ember for Gra.·ui Bank. :o<.r.

C.'la.i:ma.-t, I ~ just wondering i.f the llli..'ti.ste:::- will give me aqa.ir. - I halie. heard so~ talk about it - the rationale i:lehinci ~'le exe~D?tion of some of our Cro"''n C0!1)ora-;ions. I am talltinq about se~on ll6. They are not spe::ifically e:cel:!Pted under 116. My question is whether or not Crown corporations would have to pay property taxes, water and se-...erac;e taxes or whatever. tlC-16

December 4, 1979 Ta:;:e Nc. 1599 p.;.. - 1 ~~P.. L. T:!C~!S : If ~~ey co not have to pay Prope=ty Ta~es I a~ ~o~dering again what the rationale is behind - so~~ of our Cr~~ corporations :a~e ~ lot of money. I would assume !or example, St. John's Housing Corporation is certainly a profit-illa!d..~g CO:l!.pany. T~e Board of I..iquor Control, of course, you knew, SOII!et.'ling in tbe order of twen t"J-fi ve or thirty :nil lien do ll=s a year and I really see no reason why Crown ecrporaticn§ such as ~'lat s~ould ~ct have to ?ay Property Taxes.

If John Jor.es in GrandE~~ ~as ~o pay Property Taxes 1 a mandatory Property ':'ax under til.is act 1 then ·,;t-.y does not ~~e liquor store in Gra~d Sar.k have to pay Propert'l Taxes: A::-:.d ! feel that ~'"lese. Cro~o•n corporations shculd:; ~1a:;~e they pay a grant in lieu or so~et.'ling of that nature,maybe the minister could enlighten me in that respect. MR.. ~!.. iTI!.l'DSO?.: Well, :-!r.

Speaker, ob'licusly C:ry.,m ccr?oration owr~ed ,:>roperty is s~ll provi:tciall:· owneC. prc~ert.y. !! the corporation were to pay taxes t..,en 1 cbviousl'l, c:.at would have to be recovered by way of increased charges to t.,e ccns~er, to t.'le general public for the service, t.~e utility ;:,eir:g provided. T!:'.e same sor~ of subsiCizinq ~.mici?ali~es a..-'!.d t.~er!! is :to :oint i~ . .;:as.sir::; it i;-.. or:.e .u~C. and out: ~~e o~~er. =~does ~ot ~e any sense for a corporat~on ~o pay it. Ser;ice fees yes, cost of ••ater se.,·age yes, ;:,y all tne<ms. ~R. CF.;I.IP~'.AZI (EAI?.::l) ~!..-q_.

LUSE: The ~or:. ~.cll::er for Terra Nova. Mr. Chairt:ta"l, I wish ~o cc:;~ent further on t.'le point raisec by ~Y hon. frienc anc colleague the member for Grar.d Ba."l.J.:.· , I understand that this is almos-.: uniform ..-i~~ all the .Provinces in Canada anc I would expect ~~a~ is .,hat r::..~e oir:is';er is tr:"i~c; to co witr. the act, certainly in terms of t."l.e Prop-erty Tax. r!lis is •.;hat ~e has done to !!lake it :nandatorl i:: the se!l.se t:.':at just a=o.:t all r::..~e !'ro~Tinces in Canada :tave maCe this Prope=t:t Ta."< rr. a..~ca-:or!·.

A.-~C. ~~e ~a::-;~ ~~ir.g a~~li~s wi~~ res~~ct to assessing~ if i~U will, gove~nr.e~t Ce~ar~e~ts, in j~st. about e~;e:y Frc~rince in Car..aC:a that a gove~.t:.o.en-:. C.epartme!J.-= or a Crown cor'5=oratior.. tt:.at is rec~iving services fror.: scme =::~.~r:.icipali t::·, ~"lat. •1C17

Oece!llber ~, 197!· ~a?e 1599 RA - 2 if they a:e ~ot ~aying taxes,:~en in lieu of ~~e eaxes they a:~ giving ~~e m~~icipalitf,or whataverta grant.

Yet, the !!U.nister says t."lat ~"lere is no :;:oint in eoi.:"lg ~'us ~ecau.se ·..rnat you ta.<e bac.< in ~"le one ':la.~d you 3Ze paying bac~ ,.·it.'< the ot."ler. aut certainly if ot."ler jurisdictio~ see so~e ~erit in this t."len I cannot see w:.,_y our Province C:id not see some merit i:1. it 3-nC. in lieu, as the hon. me~~er suggested, of paying raxes then some sort of grant should be paid to ~•e municipality for t..~e services rendered gova~nt departments or ~.e Crown age:1.cies. Affairs and Housing. rf.R. :.; . ~ii!iOSO?.: qen~le=~ o~posite :he:e; as : indicated, certainly servic~ i~ ?~Vid;C.

Water services, for instance, would be paid by Crown ::orporat.:.ons ~•d 3.re paid ::y the Province on behalf o:: - (Inaudi]:;le). MR.

N. 'll!~OSO?.: :~o, t.~ac is ser,-ice :-ende:ed. ~e position ~~era is that if a ~unic~;ality is renCe:i~g a se~;ice th.en they should recover +;..;,ei:- cost, u.ot t.o :take profit o:- any':..1.ing al~e, obviously, on providing services to a Crown corporation or to a provincially 01o-ne<i !::luilding. aut if a gover:-.:;enc owned !::luildir:g is basically providi.n.c; a r9qional ser".rice, then t..~e~e is ~o :-~aso!"'. ~..;hy a m~""lici:ality shoulc be bearing ~~e whole cost of t.\ac service so we say t.'ley should be able to recover t."le cost, t.~e water and se·,.,er rates.

As far as i.t relates to Property Tax, ..,.e say no t:1.ey sho~ld not have to pay that si...-ply becaLl.Se - first of all, to compare wit."l ot."ler provinces, I cannot really comment exactly on wbi~"l provinces, if ar.y, a_• .;, ='o.i~r.g real P:roperty Tax or giving 9'rants in lieu. Ma.'l.y of t.'lem may be giv:!..ng grants in lieu but you have to look at t.'le whole ball field. !1ar.y m=icipali ties , for insta."!ce, are responsible for social services anci education in o~"ler provinces so you cannot real:y CO:I1pare.

You are taL'<ing apples and oranges when you say that ot.':ler pro•·inces are paying grants in lieu, ~~ereiore, why are we not? 4C18

Oecem!:ler 4, 1379 '!:'a;e 1599 ~\ - 3 M!' •• HOLLE':'!': ':'he :rnelan :on=-.i.s:sion re cor.:me~cieci it.. ~!!' .• ~'l. 'ii::OSOR: The :ihelar. Co=i.ssion :-ecoti'l:e:-.ded :.:: i ~ i.s fine for Alberta a."lci 3. C. to pay t:-.is, they have t:.1.e :L"Iancial ability t.o do ti'lat. AN HOt!. :-!l::'·ll3.ER: :-!!'... ~i. WI~HJSOR: They reco=enci :. t for ~le•..riotmdla."lci. '{es, t.'ley C.c. I adr.i ~ t.'le ::helan repc~t recoa:mer.cis it. T~is is one of t..i.e !'ecc.t!m'.enciaeior",S o= ~~e Wl1elan report t.~at we have not accepted and have not impler.enteci.

It is just financially impossible :or us to get in ~ •e can co t:.at a.1.ci reC.uce t."'le gran~ str'.lctu:e if you .,..ish bu~ t:•at is, again, ;n:~-:.ing .l!l.Ot:he: inequity ineo t;~e -..ay · ... ·e tre3.t ou.-,ieipaliti.e.;. The a!!'.OU...'"'l": of ::oney we have available as a Prcvine2 to ~~~C ou~ to ~unicipali:ies i$ ~c~ going to change . :1R. CHAI.?~· ~'i: (.SairC.) T~~ hon. ~~e ~~er for LaPoile. !-!...=... !il:AP..Y : ~..r. C'lairr."ta..'1, ! do r~o~ :-=:alie :a:- - Newfoc...~cUanC a..~C. ;..abraCor t.o le.ll'r .. ~'-:at t:.ey :a.-....

"'l.ct i~posa a Prope~y !'ax or +:.~ey :ar.not ,qet a q~a.."l.~ in lieu of t.axes f::-oc :=::-~t.,·r. ::o~c::-a~:Jr.s. t.hi:-ty-:~ve o:- fo-:ty ~.illlon Collars rever.ue

U) t..:..:.e ?~l~= ~:-'2aSU-"Jo", legalized bcot-1-aggi:;.g, t...Ut. ~:O,.e :nu.-:.ici?alities \o.' .;'!.er~ -: . .'"tey :1.ave ~,_ei::" stores and. t:"leir operations a..rtd t:"'.ei: b:li!c.i:lgs a."1ci :.heir ~o~~a::"2houses, municipali-::.ies cannot collgct one cent otl".er t.'la:\ ·.rater and sewerage fro1:1 t."lat Crown corporation. The sa~:~e •t~ay >~it:1 ~;e·.rfoundla:..d !:!yciro. I t.'link it !.s •t~rong, Mr. Cl.airman, not only =rally w=ng b'..!t it is le<;ally '.irong.. Crown co:porations exe~~ from t.~e - i~ is not s~ated i;:. t.-.,.e bill 1019

Oecember 4, 1979 Tape :-lo. 1500 GH-l should pay for the property taxes ~~at Hydro would pay to. the City of St. John's. MR. NEARY: ~I. Chairman, the people of Canada, ~~e people of Canada, are paying a property tax for Canadian Na~ional, which is a Crown corporation. lo!R. BARRY: ~nd you want ~~e electricity costs to go up to pay for property taxes that are paid to the City of St. John's?

No, no , Mr • Chairman • All that ha.s r.o happen is t.'lat the !!l.inister can go down, t.'l·<: ministel:" can go :iowr. to Newfoundland Hydl:"o with a stroke of t.~e pen, kick ~,~ political appointees off the pay1:oll - ~,d his party hacks t.~at were put on t.,e payroll - cut out the extravagance and waste, ar.d not only wo~ld he ~e able to pay the p1:operty tax for Newfoundland ::!ydl:"o, but ':le would be able to reduce the cost of electricity to consumers in this Province. MR. BARRY: 3ut you want them to pay property tax, do you? You want Hydro to pay property tax? ~~.

Chai~, I want Hydro to be run in an efficier..t ma.."lner, a...~d I ·t~anc all t~e peopl~ '· all the busin~ss peopla - MR. THOMS: MR. 3.\Rll.Y : MR. W"LARY: ~~- B:u>.RY: now. ~R. NEARY: M..~. BARRY: MR. NEARY: that went into bankruptcy - :.~. BAR."'.Y: :.m. NEARY: As all good corporate citizens do. Answer ~'le question. - all good corporate citizens do - Answer the question. .~swer the ques~ion I want all the business people - Yes ol:" no, yes or no. - all the business people, Mr.

Chairman, Yes or no. - all the business people - the car dealers, they ·.rent into bankruptcy, all the car dealers that went into bankruptcy - kick them off the payroll - MR. CHAIR.'1A..'I: (Baird) MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: Order, please! - and t.~en pay a pro9erty t~~­ Yes or no.

December 4, 1979 MR. NE..~~y: MR. BARRY: property tax? MR. NEARY: be kicked off ~~e payroll - MR. 3A.!~RY : M..~. N'EARY: Tape No. l6u0 G<i-2 The hon. gentleman ~as ~~e ans~ers. Yes or no. Do yo•.J •.rant them to pay Yes, ~ want all the political hacks to !ou w~~t them to pay property ~x. c~ay. - of Newfoundland Hydro. I want all the cars taken away, all the privileges, all the big contracts, all ~~e ins~3nce policies - !om. BA..~Y: :-!R. NEARY: party llacks - l'IR • aARR 'l : ~.R. W..A."tY: )IE' .. s.~"tY: okay.

MR. ~Y: You want Hydro to pay tax. ~ want all that t~~en away from !ort You want Eydro to pay ?roperty t~~. - and then pay a tax to the municipality. Okay, you want ~~em to pay ?roperty =ax, If ~~e hon. gentleman is indirectly getting o:.'le answer as yes, ~~-ten he is quite rig:tt. -"nd it •.rill not increase electricity rates in this E>rovince one iota. &. Chai=an, •..mat a foolish, false argument. It is all right for the government to go off and set off ~xplosions on either side of ~~e Strait of 3elle !sle costing the taXpayers $110 million.

And one of t..:.e reasons •.re are paying higher electricity ra~es, one of the r~asons ~~e ministe~ approved, ~~ Chairm~•, one of the reasons why the minister approved an increase in electricity rates was because of the money they had to borrow to pay off for that foolish little charade they had on ei~'ler side of the Strait. AN liON. l'..E..'IBER: (InaudilJlel. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, it says so, and the minist~. -:- •,;as responsible. (Baird) Order, please! I ~o~ld like to remind the hon. member we are talking abo~t Clause 116. ~levancy, please. Mr.

Chairman, you a~e going to hear an awf~l fuss, ~~ere will be an awful fuss. The munici?alities will ~ick up an awf~l racket when they find o~t - 4C21.

December 4, 1979 A.'l HON. MEI.'!BER: M..,. NEARY: Al.'l HON. MEl'1BEl'l.: find o~t (inaudible). !'IR. NEARY: AN HON. !1E.'1BE.."l.: (ina~di.ble). MR. N'~Y: MR.. ~!ORGAJ.\!: Tape No. 1600 GH-3 (Inaudible). Pardon? They are going lina~dible) wher. they ~~en ~~ey find out wha~? There is noclling to be ashamed Mr. Chairman, for years - (Inaudible). Oh, listen to 'square-mout~', listen to the spruce b~worm expert, the minister responsible for starving cattle. MR. ~ORGAN: (Ina~dible). M.~. ~Y: Well, if anybody is an expert on pests, it is the hon. gentleman.

Nobody is more q~lified to speak on pests and parasites,more qualified than the hon. member for Bonavista South. MR. CEAI~~N: (Baird) I would remind the hon. gentleman for Lapoil again, please, relevancy. MR. NEARY: ~. Chairm~~, for years the municipalitie~ in this Province have been trying to getatCrown corporations, bot~ federal and provincial, ~~d there was a big cour~ case recently in Port aux Basques and ~ had to cough up, CN had to pay their tax.

I belie~e, Sir, that Crown corporations should come·under the ambit of ~his bill. !'he municipalities have been trying to get money off the goverr.ment for years: where you have highways depots, where you have public buildings, they get away scot-free. I believe, Sir, ~~ey should pay some kind of a grant, they sho~ld be given some kind of a grant by the government in lieu of taxes. !'IR. Oi.'I.IR.'!AN: The hon. member from Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, 4G22

December 4, 1979 Tape No. 1601 IB-1 t-!R. T!:iOMS : this particular section, of course, does not specifically state tha~ Crown corpora~ions " are taxable. I tr~nk it is ~robably just anot~er example of this government trying tc sneak a particular

section into the ~t ~;tnout. any fuller explanation. As a matter of fact,! am not quite sure that you are not going to end up with a court case in connection with this. I am not so sure that Crown Corporations actually do come within

section 116 (

a) or (b) . AN !iON. M"':1BER: MR. TSOMS: A."' HON. !-!E.'1BER: province - ~- THOMS: (Inaudible) • 116 (

a) or (b) . Real property belongL,g to Ca.,ada or any (a), I am sorry, any property belonging to Canada - no,wait now, ~here it is here about Newfoundland? It is net (a) • Anyway 1 t!1e minister says that Crown Corporatior:s are exei:!pt. Now I am not so sure t:..l-,at Crown Corporations are exempt under this act. It may take a court case to prove , .. hether or not Crown Corporations are exempt.

Why would tile minister net write right into t..'le act ti".at crown Corporations are exe:npt:> Because tha.t would be completely out of character with the way that things are being tried to be snuck through in this particular bill. Mr. Chairman, this particular clause also gives me an opportunity to speak about something that I think every m~er of this !:louse of Assembly, both past and present 1 can be ashamed of in ti:is Province and that is in connection with a Crown Corporation, the Newfoundland ~quor Corporation, a corporation in this Province that makes in the vicinity of $25 million or S30 million a year.

You are sayL,g that that corporation should not be taxable. Ar.d the minister says that you are only taking it out of one pocket and you have got to get it from the same people back again. Mr. Chairman, maybe this is why ~~e Newfoundland Liquor Corporation puts very little of its profits into an educational programme in ~~is Province in relation to the abuse of drugs and alcohol and what alcohol can do to people, what alcohol can do to children, w~~t alcohol :an co to 4C23

December <., 1979 Ia-2 MR. THOMS: teenagers. What sort of an educational programme does t:he Newfoundland Li~~or commission have? And I am talking 4bout Crown Corporations, they should be taxable. I think it is relevant.

Now if the President of the Council ~ants to say ~~t the education of the children of ~~s Province by an agency of the government that: is selling a drug, that is selling some~~ing ~1at will affect everybody in t:hls Provillce, making $25 million or $30 million a year and not putti.~g, I do not think they are putting a cent into the education of the harmful a!fect that alcohol can i'.ave on people who are drinking it. MR. MABSHALL: MR. C<!AIRMAN (S.UEI.Dl: MR. }!ARSi!ALL: A point of order, .Mr. Chainnan. A point of order . !t is obvious the hon. gentleman is out: of order.

I mean,we are discussing this bill to impose a municipal property t:ax and if he is addressing himself to the quest:ion he is quite relev~~t, if he is acid:essi:1g himself to ~'le ques~ion of imposing a proper;:y tax on a Crown Corporation. 9ut now the hon. gentleman is goi.~g further and further a£ield. He is talking about the Newfoundland Liquor ~ommission, you know, commiti.~g some of its profits towards the education cf youth, apparently,or people with respect to alcohol and drugs. And I s~it it is completely out of order. MR. CliAIRJoiAN: On the point of order. we are talking on clause ll6.

I think it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. SOME HON. ME.II1BER.S : Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, I think 'lihat the President of the Council is t--ying to say is that he does not care what ba~ul affects alcohol has C·' t:ne yc-.mg people of this Province. He does not care, it is irrelevant. It does not apply so we should not discuss it. We should get up on a point of order and say, Do not talk about the affect that alcohol is going to have on the children of ~h~s Province. 4024

Dece::::ber 4, 1979 Tape 1602 :-13 - l That is it. ~·;e shol.lld gst u~ On a ~i~t of order anc. sa:l, "Do ::ot ':alk a.rout t..~e effect o: alco!'l.ol is ;oi.:1.g to !'lave on t~e c.~ili:i:'er. of t.;..is P:cvince ,becaLlse t:~t r"t·o ,~!d C'.l~ down on t.t.e $25 or $30 :nillion a year t.'l.at t.':.at ccrforati::.r:. puts in to t!le t:reasury oi ~!is Provi.:a.ce ~~ I~ is a s~al!lef·.J..:.. =..--:.~n; ~revio~s a~L~i3:Zatio~, previous ;revio~s aC-~•is~aticns, a:e a~ !al,ll~ ar ... d previo\ls, p:evious, ?revious a~'dir..i.:Stra~ions :1re 3.t fa:.:.l:. .. , .· c~.

Or.:!.e:, please • i:ier e we ~re ::xempting a crcwn c.c:-:?ora.tio!'l .!:-om i=· ayi~g t.!.xes, a::d. :...~.:.:: ....,....,...,..:~w- 1:'-'-J-- .... ~, Co no~ do t.."'la. e. T:-... e;_,· just tr:,~ to sneak it. t::.rouqn, 3:1.ea.k i-:. .:..:vs.o a. would r.ot be exe=~t ~~cler t~e act. ~!....~. LUSF:: :!::'. ChaL~a.n T~e ::.on. memk:e.r fror:: Ter:-a ~lava. :·IR. LUSH: M:. c~ai~an,I just w~~t :o ra!se a :;;:oi.-:t ·11ith respect to

Section 11a, a ~atter t.'"lat i.s verf i.::-. ?O!"~a.:-1.': to all councils in ~~e ~rovL~c~. It is not : matte:-of the assess~e~t of the tax, or the icposition of a tax. ! fi~d councils in ~y own area t.~at a.

~3 - la.w so t.":a t businesses or ~lJ a:1ci. t..~is is a.Zv~~ ·,.,,hat : t::ti:-..k i:. i~ 1 ~i.!~ t::e ~-=o~l.e are ~ot:. bei::; ordered to "fa~· t..~e taxes anc.! I t..~ink t~s i3 a •Je=:.: i..~::o=~ant r.-.~~-:e: .. It is one thing to ~e Yes. :1r. c:,ain:a."l, first of a.l!. ·...ritb. t.=,e :~on. gentleman wher. he saya t:'lat t.he:r2 i.s :10thlng in heres j'!ls~ th<!re are ::ore ta.xes l:.eing i.m,iiosed. That is ~ui~e clearl~· :alse.

There are a number of' nuisance ~axes', as ~he ~telan Corurr.ission called ~~e~, w;Uc~l are bei:-.-; eliminated :.e.:~.- hawke.:-'s tax·, peddler's tax, a.:.ci t.~is sort of t:""li:lr:; t..~a t t•ill not be t.:,er~ anytr.ore ~ a:ause1:1er~t t:axes, t~at 4026

December 4, l9i9 Tape No. 1603 GH-1 MR. WINDSOR: sort of arbitrar~ thing that, =eally, has bean extremely difficult to collect. These are being eliminated ~,d are bei~g looked on new as, basically, just a busL,ess tax 1 which is much easier to collect. The property tax itself is much easier to collect than a service fee. Service fee is the one that is extremely difficult. The proper;:y tax, of course, you can attach ~~e property. You can put a lien on the property, but you cannot put a lien on a person for a serJice fe~, you can simply - AN liON. ME.'!EER: (Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR: Yes.

So, property tax is ~uch easier -v collect. Your colleague, a couple of days ago, speaking on the fact that we could take somebody to court and ~~a;: he could be fined S25 a day each and e•1ery day, complained thac that was too onerous. You are saying now that that is not onerous enough, but, you know, ~~at was exac;:l7 ~at I was saying then and you are agreeing with what r said, in that a person who goes to co~t for failure to pay taxes is fined for failing to pay taxes - MR. WOODROW: And ordered to pay it. :-!..~. WINDSOR: - and ordered to pay it.

If ~e does not: pay it the next day, ~~e ~~,icipality can t~~e h~ back into court again, and yo~ colleague •.ras complaining that in due co~se t:.he fine could be more ~'"lan the taxes. AN HON. ME."':SER: Where all he is paying is t:he fine. MR. WI~~SCR: Exactly. AN !iON. :o!E..'-'.B.ER: The municipality has nothing. ~- WINDSOR: Yes, but, hopefully, in time he will get the message and will ;;>ay it. Now, there are a cou?le of o~~ar steps thac we are taking or ~ave taken.

I do not know if you noticed i~ my add~ess in Gander as it relates particularly to ci•.ril se::-•1ants, that we have said ~~at ~~e wages of civil servants may be attached for taxes, whic~ is a departure which will be put in place. We have also said that back taxes may be collected oy ac;:achment of wages by che courts, so when a 1D27

December 4, 1979 Tape No. 1603 GH-2 1-!R. W!NDSOR: person is taken to court then the courts may attach wages for ~~e collection of back taxes, a municipality can, but che municipality cannot attach wages now, for instance, of civil servL~ts. The other aspect, I thi~ we already have circulated here ~ piece of legislation on a small claims court which we are putting in place, which, hopefully, will speed ~~is whole proc~ss up to a very high degree, so that instead of having to go through all ~~e formal procedures there will, indeed, be a small claims court which can deal with ~~is particular issue.

So, what I am saying is, Mr. Gha.irman, there are, indeed, many things in here ~hich will, hopefully, speed ~? t~e whole ~~ing and make it easier for municipalities to collect , one of ~~e main ~~ings being the property tax itself ~eing collected. MR. CHAIRl'1AN: (Baird) Shall Clauses 111-120 carry? The hon. member for Saie 'Jerte-Whi te Ba~f · MR. RIDEOUT: Sorry, Sir, I have a word or two I w~•t to say on this. Mr. Chairman, I found ~~e - (Inaudible). ~. R...TDEOUT: Pardon? M..'<.. MAa$ 2.1U.L: (Inaudible l . MR. RIDEOUT: 116. The hon. t..~e House Leader, :·lr. Chairman, is really on his toes.

Just in case we might talk about a clause that has already gone, is it? MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible). M..~. RIDEOUT: Than.l< you. Mr. Chai.r:nan, I found the earlier comments on Clause 116 rather interesting, because last night I spent an hour or so - I do not know why I should do it - but I spe~t an ~ur or so watching on television ~~e debate in the House of Commons, and the great defender of t..~e rights and privileges of municipalities, Newfoundland's own John C.

Crosbie , the Minister of National Finance, had introduced i~to ~~Commons yesterday a resolution, a bill, Bill 53 I believe it was, to furthe~ liberalize grants in lieu of taxes to be paid by • the Governmen~ 1G28

Decel!lber 4, 1379 Tape No. 1603 GF.-3 M.~. aiDEOUT: of Canada and ~y F~deral Crown corpo=ations ~o ~unicipalities. So, I find that, you know, really where we do not have that kind of supplementary legislation in ~~is par~icular ?r~vince, certainly a."! argument can be made as to whether or not some of t.'lose Crown corporations that are relatively rich, some of ~'lem that are making a very good PFofit, should they not help to equali:e or to bear part of the tax burden in ~IJ.e municipalities where they are situated, •.-here t: • .'1ey are locatec?

Certainly the municipalities are ~ot very - make great haste to make that case to the Government of Canada, places like Gander, for example, where you would have the Canadian .~ed Forces located, I ~ve heard them bellyache - and rightly so - in the news media for the past number of years over the fact t.'lat the grant was not sufficien~. the fact ~'lat certain aspects of ~'le ~litary establisr~ent were excluded, and Mr.

Crosbie was on last night making that very point and ame~ding that a piece of enabling legislation t!l.at they have in Ottawa <<hereby a lot of the previousl~· exempted property will now come under ::his particular bill.

I find it interesting that this Province, as a province, with the municipalities being ~IJ.e creatures of the Province as t.'ley 3Ze has no comparab~e ~nabling legislation, because if Newfoundland Hydro or if Churchill Falls, for example, where t:here is a loc o::: acti ·ri t:; by and on be.hal:: of Newfoundla."ld Hydro, if C:.'lurchill Falls 'lfere an incorporated mu.."lici;?.:.lity wi~'1. a pro;::erty tax, t!len I ·.-~ould think it would be righc a."ld proper that 4C29

Deceml:er 4, 197 9 Tape NO. 1604 !B-1 :-!R. RIDEOUT: the municipality ~f Churchill Falls be entitled to a grant in lieu of taxes from that corporation. I think it equally right and proper tha~ - maybe it is incorporated, ! do not know. I did not bother to check it out - st.

John's, for example, should oe entitled to a grant in lieu of taxes from the Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor Corporation, ~~t Baie Verte should. be entitled to a grant in lieu of t=es for t."te big building that the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation has in that municipality, or that Roddickton should be entitled to a grant in lieu of taxes from Newfoundland Hydro for the real property that it has in t."lat town. Alld the real effect cf it, of course, !1r.

Chai=an, and exactly why the Goverr.ment of Canada have accepted that very principle is chat it will enable a more equal sharing, a more equal distribution of t~e tax burden in <:he municipality.

And if some of chese Crown Corporations are fledgling, if some of t.'lem are just barely getting along thc..'l there may be an argument and a case fer exemption a..'ld cer-cainly there is no reason why we cannot do that. ~ost of those corporations are set up under acts of ~he Legislature and for a period of time you could grant them the same concession t.'lat you would grant ot.'ler companies setting up in the Province, give them a tax break, give them a tax window. 3ut to give them a blanket tax break I think is quite unfair 1 especia11y when they partake of the services in the municipalities where t.'ley are operatL'lg.

I think it is quite unfair and I thi~< an excellent argument can be made to have that changed especially where those corporations are lucrative. Now I know the counter argument or part of the counter argument that some of the revenue comes back into i:he general: revenue of the Province and gets red- ;~.i..i.Jut~d that way. That is certainly the case as far as, say, Newfoundland and !..abraC.or Liquor Corporation is concerned. It is not t.~e case,though,as far as Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is concerned. It is not the case, I do not think it is ~'le case as far as Newfoundland and Labrador Farm •lC30

Decemi:ler 4, 1979 Tape No. 1604 I:S-2 MR.. RIDEOt?-': Products iSI concerned. A lot of those corpor~tions have a 2X break from the municipality level 1 yet they are enjoying ~~e very s~~e services that the people in the municip~lity have to pay for.

And,llk.e I said, ~'le federal government have recOC]nized that pri..'"lCi?le. ! ~'linK. it is a principle that this provincial government ought to recognize also and maybe for cnce jump on the bandwag~ with their buddy Jo!ln anc!. introduce a comparable bill to bill C53 down here in our Legislature so that the fledgling municipalities, some of which have a very w~k tax base in this Province - and the minister would be the first to recognize it and admit it - might be able to fi..'"ld some revenue from some of those lucrative Crown Corporations and thereby lessen the tax burden on ~~e ordi..'"lary individual in those ~nicipalities. ! thir~ it is an excellent idea and I certainly hope that ~'l.e minister would not just cb.uc.'<: it out the wir4ow .but might give some thought to it. ~- C"r.A!Rl'.k'i (~!R- SAIRDl : The hen. !1il"lister of M::;nicipa.l Af::airs a:1d Housing. !'IR.

WINDSOR: Just to comment very briefly, the hon. gent.l.eman made a very unfortunate choice of examples when he choose Churchill Falls. It is not incorporated. It is totaly owned by Churchill Falls (::.a.brador)Corpora"t:ion. All services are provided by the corporation. -~ HON • !-lE.'!BE.."< : .MR. WINDSOR: A Crown Corporation: It is a Crown Corporation. The town itself is owned by the corporation. so it was a peer choice,but that is irrelevant. The point I want to make is that he relates it to the federal government. The difference in t.'le federal anci provincial government, Mr.

Cha..irman, is that the federal government does not 9rovide revenue grants or snowclearing grants or road maintenance grants or recreational grants or anything else to municipalities that the Province is providing. And if you t:ake funding from Hydro, if •11e add S3 millior. onto Hydro's bill 1 they have only one choice which is to pass that along to the consumer. If you add SJ million, ~y, real property taxes to 4031.

December 4, 1979 Tape !<{o . 1604 rs-J MR. WINOSOR: the NewfoWlltland t.i~or Corporation,then obviously t.l1er do not need to pass it alone; -they could-or they can deduct it fr~ !;he amount: of revenue that they are turning CNe: to the l?rovi."lCe 1in which case we wou.J.d lla.v& tllat much Lesl:l to pass out through municipal grants or whAtever. As it relate3 to the NewfOWldl.atld Housing Corporation, so111ebody said it was a great pro£it making or;anization. 'l'~ -Newfounc:U&Dd ~d I.abri!idor Housing COrporation first of all is a non-profit orqa:ni.za.tion.

And in spite of t.'IJat on all the rental uni-.s, I am told tlla.t the !i01,1Sii!I1 Corporation does indeed pay property 1:4xes even though they are not by t:he act bound to but they are iruieed paying property taxes on t.hdr rental units so t.h,at t:he rental properties and particularly public housinc; units that we nave i."1 various municipalit,ies are not there:fo _re a burden on ¢e municipalities. so we are doing it as equ.itably as ,possible. 'l'b.e wbcle purpose of t.lus· act i$ t;o try to distrl.Dute e.csually as much as we can the burden on the municipalities. 4C32 ..

':ape lGU5 :::c - 1 The ;,.on.. t."-le tr.e!!'l::er fdr Te:-ra .lova .. :1!' .• LUS::!: :-tr. Ch.air.:tan, r am ·...-ond~rir..q whe~1.e.:- from Sectio:~ 110, I believe it was, t:o

Section 120. Rat.'":er ':...'1.an speMi::1q to jcs:: one, I wondered what ~'1.e Sections lll eo 120. :~a. LUSH: Sections lll to 120 - so ~e nave already !)assec

Section 11J. There is a ·:;:'-!estion I ·;~an-;ad '::o asi<: of the ::ti.r.ister a.'"1d I am trJ::..tlg to find out where I can as:~ i -c. ! wi:l j u.s~ let :..."":.at: go !or a ':~e :ten.. t..:,e ~.e::t!Je: fo: 3ais Ve:-:: - ~· 1:.

Clai~an, ! :o ;tOt; want to ?rclo:lg ~'1.is and I have no ~::1tention of doing so, b'-!t I certain~y ~ave t:c have one last c~ack a~ ~~e logic useci by ~,e mir.isesr wit~ regar~ =~ ~~e =ederal ;.osi ~ion.. r !:'.ean, t...,-e fe C·.!ral ~si :.ion could ;; ~ exactly the ;.-os! -:ion of the ::C.:-..l.s~er, a:1d t.'-lat is 0:.:"1e !'ederal govern=1ent coulci be sayi::g, ':.;o s:.lc.i. ;~ir.s as gratt~ in lisu o! ~axes. ~· i ~ give gra..~ts :or special educa~iona l ~u..~oses, '"e give ;ran-:s for special hig!".way ,?urpcs2s, ·.;e gi•;e grants for ·.:r.~versi :.ies, you know.' ~!? .• RI!lEOUT: They give t.,_em ~o ~1e gover~~en: of t.his .i?rcvinc2 - A:< HCN. -!t~IBER: That is right.

MR. RI!lEOOT: - Yhi~~ in turn gives much of it to the municipalities. Ao.'i HON. ME:)!BE?..: There have !:Jeen o;.·atS!r anc Sew·er systerr.s Cone tL"tcler c.~a-c kir.d of t!:ing. So I do not '..tant t..1.a-:. kind of - That is ~o~ eq~al. Well, it is just as equal, : would su==~t :.0 t.."le tn.i:Uster

Tape 1605 EC - 2 :-IR. ?.ICEOU'!': as having Newfo~~dl_and Hy~ro ~ol~ on to it all ar.d not pay any ~hare =or ~~e services ~~at ~e are getting in those co~~~:ies. ! am not saying so~k it to them, but maybe if ~~ey had a big head office in Corner Sroo~ 1 or a big ~ead office in St. John's cr Baie Verte or somewhere else, ~~en maybe - I think ~"le principle is i:::porta."lt - ~:~aybe they ought to contribute some~"ling towards ~'le cost of muni~?al services in ~'lose ;nunicipalities. ~be they will turn over a little bit less revenue ::0 t..'1.e gover=ent, and so what?

T!l.e grants are coming froo a.;.ot."ler so=ce - ::..'ley ,.·ill not ~ave tc ~o::o.e from ~'le mir.is':er' s depar::..-nen t.

So I t..~i:-.k the principle is a comr.Tendable one, a.'ld ;.:hile it may not be able to be done on ::..".e s=.e level a."ld the s~e broad ra.;.ge ~"lat it is done from a federal level, I ~"lir.k ~'l.ere are certain Crown corporations in this ?ro~-i.nce •,;\10 co<lld help pay, hel9 foot ~~e ~ill for ~icipal services :o a deg:ee, :o an ex~en:.. .: r::ean, e"'ren Corner 3rocj(:, :or exa:l:.ple, i::; still looki:1.g for gra.'\ts in lieu of taxes from the Sir ~·:il!red Grer.fell College out t."1ere, are tl1~y not.? Is t..~e:~ qoi:1g to De a."ly resol!.ltion to t.~a1:.? can t..~ey (Ina•.ldible) .

I realize it is ...... a sense t:"'Lat the college is owned by a ?ri•late firm a.'ld leased back cy the government, ~ut what I a.:1. saying is th.at ! would no:. .!.ik.a to see :...~e princi?le t..~ro; .. ;~ out: ~'le '"'indow '"'it.'lout any t:hought given to it. ive ~:~ay not. be e.ble to do it here cr. the level that it. can be done from ~'1.e =ederal le•Jel, but certainly ! ~'link ~'lere is sorne merit to it and it: migl". t be able to be work.ed out so t..":.at t..'le burden on ~"le shoulders of t.."l.e litt:le fellow !!'.ight be lessened a little bit and some of the burden throt~n back on some of t.'le Crown corporati,.,ns who are ma.l·,i~-; .~ good buck in :..'lis Province.

And :!laybe t..".e cinister might be <!l:lle to tell us 1 too, whe~"ler some of t..'1.ose large Crown corporations in ~'lis Province are on a ?rivatization list. That is the way to get ~".a taxes out of ~'1.em. to dea~,, ! suppose, if we keep going back a~C for~~- All I can say is ~~a~, 4034

oece~~er ~. l9i9 :·ape 1605 EC - 2 :·!.a. cl • W::"IDSO R: arc;=er. t ;, i tn t.lat. Most of ~~e fun~i~g from ~~e federal gove~~er.t t..'-la:. D:FU:E pu~ several r..illion ~lla.rs into a :najor regional '"'ater supply i~ St.

John's cioes ~ot rean t.~a1: t..-=-:.ey :-.ave Cone a.~yt..~ing =o: ~o:::ay, l.n O~~er words, so ~~er~fore, i: ~~ey have a post of!ice in Tor.bay, ~~en Tor.bar should get sornet."l.ing '='I ·-tay of a gra..;.t in lieu of -:.axes on t>."l.at post office.. !"'!est of t..~e :unC.ing fror.-~ ~~e fa'.i2r.a.l gove.:n.'":.er.~ has gone into !':!ajor regional services, 'll'it..-, :..:,e exception of our r-.e·..- :-:".lr..ici?a.!.

Gra.Il"=S p::ograzr:::.e ·...,·hich is ~Us S~- 2 :nil lion proc;ra...-:r.;.e :::lr ~"'..is yea= and w:.ic~ ~ill be dist.ribu-:.ed a.~.or:q :tt.:..""li:ipali ~~s Zu: !'lot ':.o all cf e.:,.en, ac;ai::.. So not all municipalities are get~:.:".g ~~· be:-:.efits. So i-:. :nay :,,a t..~at. a. =orr.mur:.i~1 ~-....at ge':s so:rle be:1.e.fit .::-o~ t.."'J.at. ~rog~r~e does not !'la•re a feCe:al qover.:~ent ~uilc!ing i:"'. t..~e!"e so, yet:. k:to'"-, :...1.ej· are get:ting money ::.ere. Ano-:...~er ~c...'"'li-::i~a.li ty t,;.,_a'C. does ~ave a .f2C.eral goverr..I:1e:lt. b 1J.ilding :nay not.

So i:. is :ai.:-, yo>;J know, it is :r~:-e ~qt:.itable ~~at :,.·ay, to acknowledge =~!:' t.he federal goverr-:.~:-.~ t . .""'lac -:..-.ey have a building tr..e~2 anci t..,_erafore ti'.e~· a!:'e paying gran:r:s in lieiJ. of ~.axas. s~~ that C.oes no': follow • .• .-i =.-..... a. ,?!"ovi::.ce whe:~ ;,;e a:~ ?ayi::.g qrar..ts to ever-1 rn.unicipali ~y a."ld t.:yir..g ~o Co it 4H35 ·,

December 4, 1979 Tape No. 1606 IS-l MR. 'IIINDSOR: as equ4lly as possible through the municipal grant system that was approved by this House two years ago. ArA the whole concept of that is to try to treat municipalities as equally as we ;?OSsi:::,ly can. Yet we recogr.ize we do not want to put o~ any burden, ane ~at is ~hy pretty well in all cases we are paying water and sewer rates and any other service charges or fees for services rendered. MR. CHAI~"JAN (!'.R. BAIRD): The hon. :nember for Terra Nova. ~.R. LUSH : Mr.

Chair.nan, here we are ta!.Jdng about generally the rate of tax that is to be imposed by a municipality, which raises two questions. I understand that now in order to qualify for a water and sewer system that a municipality must impose a property tax.

I am wonder .i.ng now how this affects, for example, ehe preser. t syste..-n whereby a town applying for a water and/or sewer system must first of all circulate a questionaire among the residents of the community and get SO per c~~t approval ~eng ~e reside..~ts; one, stating ~~t they • want and· water and/or sewer system ar4,secondly, that they must agree to pay t~e water and sewer rates implemented by that particular town. So I am wondering how that now fits in or whether just by application of the property tax that t::U.s is now elil:linated.

And secondly, I am wondering where this places the unincorporated water committees - oh 1! ~.sorry, ~~e incorporated water committees for u.~incorporated towns. I am just wondering how this fits L~. It seems to me we are ca=ying on this same sort of mess and perpetuating the same sort of mess that we now have whereby the unincorporated areas have bee.~ getting breaks over the incorporated areas. So I wonder if the minister can comment en that. What is happening to those poor incorporated water commit.tees now that have been set up to try and get water fer their communities. Are they outside cf this?

And again, if so, we have again created a great gape bet·..-een the incorporated areas and unincorporated areas of t::U.s Province. The hon. Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and !iousing. 4C36

December 4, 1979 T.ape No. 1606 ra-2 ~!R. WL.'IDSOR: No, Mr. Chairman, ehare is no great change. These water committees t:.he hon. gentleman is talkirig abo~;t '"'ill now be known as local se--vice districts which is basically - :AN HON • .l'~E.'t: AutOI!Iatically'? MR. WINDSOR: Yes. They 4re basically the same thing, except the local service district now

whereas at the moment under the exis.ting legislation we have water canmittees, we have solid waste disposal coumittees u.-·lder my colleague's department, we have fire fighti;:.g committees in some communities, this sort of thing; ~~~t we are saying is that for communities that wish to provide specific services - and there is a full

section here on local service districts ~hich we ~ill come to in time - but for those committees that wish to provide these specific services but do not ~ant to get involved in the whole ambit of providing local government services and all the infrastr•.!ct:ure a.'ld responsibilities t:..-.,erewith 1 that we may continue \ll'lder these loca.i.. service committees but t!lat '"'e combine these three fc=s into one so that we do not go into a parti:::.Uar community and find that . ..,.e have t:..'u:ee committees . ..,.hie;:,. government is dealing with and t:hree ::ommit:.tees that are collecting a dollar for this and t·..,.o dollars for that and four dollars for tr~t =rom each person who benefits from these servi::e s .

We are sa:·ing we can combine these and t."lat these local ser•ri::e committees, power will be designated to ~"lem to provide very specific services. There is no power of taxation, simply a fee for service, that is all. So ther!! is no change there ,..,.hatsoever and they are not =overed by this property tax. In fact 1 th~y do not have the righ~ to imFose taxation. They can only charge a fee for services. so it does not ::hange ~~at. MR. CHAIR."'A'II (BAIRD): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. !lEARY: Mr.

Cha.ixman, you would think if tile mi.."lister was going to make this bill the Magna Carta for the operation of municipalities in this Province that the minister w~uld have broug~~ in a formula whereby municipalities •....auld be given grants in lieu of taxes. This ~~s been a sore spot with municipalities for years,as the hon. gentleman knows. Perhaps the hon. :nember for Gander ( ~s. Newhook) '"'ho used to be a mayor of that town, can tell us what: they do 4{.'37

December 4, 1979 Tape lo!o. 1606 I3-3 ~-~- ~!::A.~'!: in ca se oi t !le oar pro9erty in Gander, the air pore ar.C so for::.h. ~es the town coun.cil in Gander gee a c;r a.ne !rem t.~e Gove:r.ce.'le of Canada in lieu of .:a.xes or can c..~e y charge <1 property u.x to the Oeparoent of Transport for the lJuildL'lgs a.nc :or t!le airpon in Oander? 1 ac~ :>ure the town council in Gander c e...-uir. l:t :nust have ta.ken a loo~ lit 4G3S

December 4, 1979 Tape No. 1607 ~H-1 ~ling to gee at ~~e Government of Canada eo ge~ some money :rom ~~e airport and from the buildings that DOT hav·e there in ~'lat Cer:tral Newfoundland to-.m. The han. minister •,;as - I ;.-ill yie1ci. ~ ~oo·ill yielci. What kind of a grant!' ".r.a hon. minister used ::o be mayor of that to-.m • .1as the hon. minister satisfied with ~~e grant that ~'ley got in lieu of taxes from the Depar':ment of Trar".sport or is it a bone of contention always with the council out there? MRS. NEWHOOK: No, :.tr. Chairman, that has not ~een, really, a bone of contention.

I ~'link sometimes there has been a question with regard to the assessment tha:: ~'le Federal Gcver~en:: would put on their properties, because the Federal Government, ~'ley do their own assessments and it is not always ~~e same as our provincial assessment of that particular property. There is no problem ~ith regard ::o the grant in lieu of taxes, except sometimes we ~'lought that, perha!JS, it should have been i:1 excess cf 'Nhat they did receive on 3CCount of the assessment val•..:.e of ~'le prope!:ties. 1-'.R. CHA!RM..""-'1: (Baird l l'IR. NEARY: '!'he 'hen. member from Lapoile.

We1l 1 the point! am making, Mr. Chai~. and ! thank the non. minister :or the information bec3use this con:irms what we have been saying on this side of :he House, that the ?rovince - Han. member for Lapoile, what clause are you on now? ~~- NEA.=<Y: I am on tax exempt prope~ty, ll6 - tha:: the qoverr.ment, the provincial ·;overnment, should follow the good example set by ~'le Government of Canada and pay a tax to the m:micipality. For instance 1 in Stephenville, a large

section of the property in Stephenville is owned by the provincial government, and under this act ~~e Town of Steph~~ville cannot impose a property tax en the Ear:on Cor?oration. Now, I do not ~,ow if they get a grant in lieu oi taxes or not. MR. W!NDSOR: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Pardon? 4G39

::lecem.ber 4, 1979 Tape No. 1607 Gi:i-2 MR. WINDSOR: Harmon Corporation {inaudiDle} Ha.~n corporations are paying t~~es. MR. ~EARY: They are paying taxes - property? They are paying the going rate in Staphenvi11e. Well, that is good, I am glad to hear that. I am not so sure about Goosa aay. ~nat is happening in Happy Valley-Goose Bay? Are they getting a grant from the Government of Canada? AN liON. MEMBER: 12. NEARY: Yes, they are. They are getting a grant. Well, the problem then seems to be - as the Ministar of Consumer Affairs and Environment (Mrs. ~ewhook) who seems to know more about this particular

section of the bill · than the Minister of ~unicipal ~ffairs and Housing {!1r. Windsor) - the problem seems to be ·.-ith t.l·1e assessment where there is a property belonging to the Government of Canada, t;-e n t.".e problem seems to be wit.~ the assessments t.~at are ~de. Parhaps the minister might have !llOra info~tion t.~at could enlightan us as to whether or not he has ar.y complaints from municipalities who wo~ld think · they are being shafted by the Government of Canada, who do their own assessing, according to the Xinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, they assess their own property.

What about anyone (inaudible} down in Cart~ight where they have - MR. NEARY: Yes, well, there are all kinds of ~ederal Government property scattered ~~ough Newfour.dland and Labrador, and I do not know if all in cases - we just confirmed it in the case of Gander t.~at they do get a tax - MR. WINDSOR: is a pr.operty tax i:nposed. MR. N""U\.!<.Y: MR. '.HNDSCR: They only pay it,by the way,where there Where there is a ?roperty tax? 'Hhere t.~ere is a property tax imposed. They will not pay it in a municipality that does not have property tax as the tax system. That is ~~ important point to remember. HR.

NEJ.-RY: Bu-:., ~1r. Chair!!lan, the point ~.-~e are making is that the Gcverr-.ment of Canada does have a policy. The Government of Canada has a for.nula whereby they compensate ~unicipalities, 4040

Oecembez- 4, 1979 1'a?e No. 16V7 :-m. m:;...<tY: ·.rhetiler it: be a :;>rope::ey ::u or a grant: in lieu of ~axes, a~ lease ~~e ~unici:;>ality coes ge:: some~q :rom :he pu!;)lic :.:easu..ry of canada. auc i!l e.~e ::ase of :-:ewfo\:t\dlr.e, ::.'"lere is no poli~/. ~o policy, anc here we have Sec~ion 116 axe~:inc; raal proper::y belonging c.o Ca.r.ada. No"', :·tr. Cha.L-man, •o~hac kind of a.r. eiiec:: is c:"lac going eo have on ~'le :-ti.nisuy oi l'ranspore ~'lat a:e now assessL'l<; tilei: own properey ir. Gande r and :;>a:;ir.g a t:.ax to t:..'"le To·~n o: va.~cie::> 'hna:: effect: is ~,is going to have?

Could r.ot ~,e Xir.ist:y oi Trans:;>ort, ii they :;>l ace ::~eir own inter? reta::ion on ~'"lis bill, say :o ::he Tc"'n c: Ga..,cier - ar:d ! hope :he hon. member ior .:;a.'lc.e: ( ~s. !lewhook ) is lisce :~ ~g under

Section 116 Ca l . real propen:y, !.t says, "The iollowing ::-ea: proper t y is exempced : r om ::he ::-eal ?ropercy tax: 4041

December 4, l9i9 Tape 1608 E:C - l real property belonging ~o c~~ada or any province of Ca.naC.a." :iow r would assume real property belonging t.o Canada mea."ls the airport a."ld t.'le buildings around t.'lat airpor':.. Could r.ot t."le !1il'lis':.::y of Tra.;.sport. - A11 HON, lo!E:-!BER: CTC. That is rig;:. t.. Could not. t."le ~~liniS":rf of T:-anspor-t say, '~-Iel!., okay, you just put a bill t..1.=oug~1 your House cewn t."lere exempting property belonging to C~"lada from any taxation, from t.'le real property tax, so '"e are :1.ot going to ;Jay yo;.1 Could t.'".at not be the inte::?re':ation placed or.

Sec':.i..on (.,.) of t.'ti.s clause? MR. :-IR. :.<.B.. :-!R. THOMS: :rs~>-".Y: TSCMS: :·.iE~RY: Sure, there coulC. be a real d~"lger. There is a C.anger t.'1ere, a real danger. Especially wit.'1 t.~e Tories in t.'1ere. wi~~ ~~eir cut backs in Ottawa and Crosbie getting ~~e tough line - bully boy!- ca..~ in here and put the gears ':0 tile ~ew!o;,:,ncila.t1c:iers. :~ow he is t.."Ying t.o put t.'le gears to Ca.nadia."ls.

But wi :h t.."'e ret.renci.::c.en': =.nd ""i:h l:he C".lt backs, could :: . .':.ey not. gel:. stingy and t.ight and say, '!-:o, '-"-"":Cer t..Us Ci11, we do not have to ?aY ~"le tow:1 of Ga."'lC.er, ~:,e ~own of 5 tephe.-,vil.!.g, t..'"le town o! Ciappy Valley, Goose Bay~ or a:.y ot.,.er :o'WI.-nS ~o'lhe:-e you :-;.ave - the St. John • s airport •o~~here :rou have large c!lt.L~ks o! feci.e~.al p::o9-:rty,' t.'ley could _?ut U\eir owr. inter;;oretation il.!ld say, '~!o, •,o~e are not goir.g o:o Bu~ I ~ell you, t..'le ~st. nons~"lsical _?art. of (

A) is•real property belonging to C~"lada or ~"lY province of CaJ'Iada: In ot.'ler ':ol"ords, if any pro,rince of Canada comes in