Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 45 (35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-45

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislatu re of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honcxrable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 45 • 1 :30 p.m., THURSDAY, MAY 16, 1991 Printed by Ille Office of the OUHlls Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslatu re LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Cllf EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

21 67 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, May 16, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bonlface): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of L. Carriere, Ted Dupuis, Roland Sylvestre and others, requesting the government of Manitoba to consider reinstating the index in the 55-Plus program. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 19 visitors from the Aboriginal Journalism Program, and they are under the direction of Russell Merick. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Waterways Jurisdiction Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Province of Manitoba has been slowly and purposefully moving into greater areas of authority and responsibility for some of the major environmental assets in the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba. We have had for years and decades a period of time where the city of Winnipeg was exempted from the old environment act. We, of course, passed an environment act that removed the exemption from the city of Winnipeg because all municipalities should be treated the same way.

We were involved in trying to stop and effectively stopping apartment blocks from being built on Omands Creek, and then we had to move amendments in committees with the Liberals on a car wash that was proposed again on one of these natural areas. It concerns us greatly, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Urban Affairs has, quote: delegated more authority for our waterways to the City of Winnipeg.

I would ask the minister why, instead of delegating the authority to the City of Winnipeg, which has proven and demo nstrated a neglect for our waterways, whether it is the discharge into the river, whether it is the licensing of treatment places, whether it is the Omands Creek operation that the minister was well aware of in his former career, why would we be delegating those authorities to the City of Winnipeg, instead of maintaining provincial standards and provincial objectives in terms of our waterways for the population of Manitoba? • (1 335) Hon. Jim Ernst (Min ister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I reject many of the comments that the Leader of the Opposition made with respect in his

preamble to this particular question. Mr. Speaker, presently in The City of Winnipeg Act, there is a provision that prohibits development over waterways. That provision will remain-if the member had read the bill-until such time as the City of Winnipeg passes a concurrent by-law to prohibit the same kinds of things. Building construction in the city of Winnipeg, building permits for everything under the sun, Mr. Speaker, that happens in the city of Winnipeg is dealt with directly by the City of Winnipeg through their Department of Environmental Planning. They issue the permits.

They control it by virtue of development control by-laws and things of that nature. It makes sense that it be consolidated with the city by by-law, as the rest of their provisions are, and that our amendment in the act will remain there until such time as the city passes a by-law. If they do not pass a by-law, Mr. Speaker, it is not removed from the act. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows and he, ofcourse, was on council when the City of Winnipeg, under their own zoning and by-la w provisions, approved a 323-p erson apartment block on Omands Creek.

21 68 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 The minister knows we had a crisis two years ago when they were planning a car wash on the Omands Creek. We had to get involved as a government and use all the authorities available to us to try to negotiate a change so that Omands Creek would be available as a natural resource for the people of the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba. Why is the government delegating more authority to the jurisdiction that has given us the greatest problems in terms of protecting and enhancing some of these waterways, Mr. Speaker?

Why would we not have provincial standards and provincial programs under the Rivers and Streams Act and all the necessary acts so that we do not get into these boondoggles as we did in 19 84, 1 985 and 1 987 with Omands Creek and other projects, and as we have over the past num ber of years with discharge and other environmental concerns in the city of Winnipeg with the exemption that we removed in 19 87, with the proclamation in 19 88 of The Environment Act? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Leader of the Opposition heard what I said in the first instance.

I said atthe presenttime there is provision in The City of Winnipeg Act that prohibits that development. It will remain in The City of Winnipeg Act until such time as the City of Winnipeg passes a by-la w prohibiting that development. At some point in the future, development over waterways may, for whatever reason, be required, and if it is, the city would have to change their by-law. To do that, Mr. Speaker, it involves a very significant process. That process then would be publicly enunciated and council will make that decision at that time. Mr.

Doer: The council made the decision to proceed with 323 apartments on Omands Creek. The council was proceeding with the decision to build a car wash. We have had histories and examples of apartment blocks. If you just look outside the back door of this Legislative Building, you will see apartment blocks that this member was involved with as a councillor being approved right into the banks of the Assiniboine River. We have had example after example of discharges not being licensed. We have had examples, Mr.

Speaker, of the City of Winnipeg proceeding in a way that was inconsistent with all other municipalities in the province of Manitoba. My question, therefore, to the minister is: Why is he delegating that by-law authority to the City of Winnipeg? Why is the province not showing leadership and putting in strong parameters for the protection of our waterways as a provincial standard under the City of Winnipeg provincial act rather than delegating it back to City Hall and leaving ourselves vulnerable to the Gang of 18 kind of politics that saw apartment blocks over waterways in the past. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, the apartment blocks that the honourable memb er refers to across the Assiniboine River, on the south side of the Assiniboine River, were approved by The Rivers and Streams Protection Authority, which is the City of Winnipeg Council. They have that authority already. The one issue that we are talking about, the question of construction on top of rivers or streams, not along the banks but on top of the rivers and streams, was an amendment put into The City of Winnip eg Act a couple of years ago. That amendment, Mr.

Speaker, remains in The City of Winnipeg Act and will remain there until such time as the city passes a by-law to prohibit it. Manitoba Telephone System Oz Pedde Appointment Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a new question to the minister responsible for Telephones. Mr. Speaker, the MTX affair-as members opposite have called it and I think the public have generally called it- was one of the biggest mistakes of any Crown corporation in the history of this province. It caused tremendous difficulty for the people of Manitoba. It cost us money that we should never have lost.

It caused some problems that took a number of years to correct in terms of the mo rale and the oper ations of the Manitoba Telephone System. -(in terjection)- Well, read Hansard. Mr. Speaker, today we have learned that the government has appointed a Mr. Pedde to be the chief operating officer of the Manitoba Telephone System. My question is to the minister of Telephones. Was this appointment approved in cabinet, and secondly, was the activity of Mr. Pedde surrounding the MTX affair, an issue in the Telephone System, reviewed by the cabinet and the minister prior to the appointment? * (13 40)

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 21 69 Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, I am certainly pleased that the Leader of the Opposition has now apologized for the events in his government of getting involved in MTX, losing $27 million in the sands of Saudi Arabia, destroying the morale in the Manitoba Telephone System and going through a period of time and losing $20 million to $25 million a year. Now the morale is recovered. We are making well over $20 million a year, in fact over $30 million a year now.

The company is up and running and competitive. We have gone through a search to find a new chief executive officer. The man has worked 14 years with the Manitoba Telephone System, seven years in the private sector, and he has worked for four years at Northern Telecom. Mr. Speaker, the man is exceedingly well qualified. The morale of the company is up, and they are ready to move on with the event s of the futur e in telecommunications. The man will do a very good job. We are pleased to announce him as the new CEO for the Manitoba Telephone System in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I refer to the Coopers and Lybrand report tabled in this Legislature which states, in 1980-curious date-M r. Pedde and Mr. Aysan started negotiations with the Sheik Al Bassam. Further to that, in January '82 the MTX board meeting delegated authority to MTX to negotiate with ABI, and all agreements were subject to MTX board approval before becoming effective. If you read on to the Coopers and Lybrand report, you will read a number of other comm ents about the way the plans were originally established in 1980 and '81 , which caused tremendous difficulty for the people of Manitoba right throughout the '80s.

My question to the minister is-I asked the minister whether the cabinet approved the decision, and secondly, did he review the Coopers and Lybrand report before the approval of Mr. Pedde as the Chie f Executive Officer of the Manitoba Telephone System? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the member knows that his government was completely responsible for the events that happened that damaged the Manitoba Telephone System and lost taxpayers of Manitoba money in the sands of Saudi Arabia. That

chapter of history is closed. We have closed it. The corporation is getting on with delivering the service to the citizens of Manitoba and the ratepayers of the Manitoba Telephone System. This member is being extremely unfair in trying to create certain levels of innuendo, because they are responsible. This mem ber was chosen by an executive search to be the best person for the job for all the reasons I have already given. We know he will do an excellent job of moving the corporation into the telecomm unications challenges of the 1990s. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would agree with the minister that our job should be to close a bad

chapter in a good Crown corporation. The employees of Manitoba Telephone System have been phoning a number of people over the last period of time saying that exactly the opposite is going to happen, that they moved forward with the last Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Bird. Things were doing very, very well. An Honourable Member: Did you hire him? Mr. Doer: Yes, I did hire Mr. Bird. It is unfortunate he went to Northern Telecom. Mr. Speaker, things were moving forward and the integrity and the morale in the Telephone System had been improving.

Now they had heard rumours that the government was going back to the 1980 formulation of MTX and back to some of the same people. I would ask the minister: Did he review the Coopers and Lybrand report prior to his approval of this person as the Chief Executive Officer of the Manitoba Telephone System? Will it cause any problems to the morale of MTS by going back to a bad

chapter in Mani toba Telephone System history? "'

(1345) Mr.Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I will answer the member very, very emphatically. No, the hiring of Mr. Pedde will not do any morale damage to the Manitoba Telephone System. In fact, it will raise the level of morale. He is a former employee of the Telephone System. He is a Manitoban; he is committed to Manitoba. He is 49 years old, capable of leading the company in the technical and the management frame for the years ahead. There is nothing wrong with what Mr. Pedde did in the past. All the wrongs were comm itted by the cabi net of the New Democratic Party over the course of years.

21 70 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 Mr. Speaker, I will reaffirm that, in the course of time when he was over there, they were losing $20 million and $25 million a year. They are now making $20 million and $30 million a year profit and moving in to the new gen er ation of off ering telecommunication services to the citizens of Manitoba. Mr. Pedde will lead the charge through the 1990s very successfully. Manitoba Telephone System Oz Pedde Appoint ment Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I have to say that I have never been as shocked with a governmen t appointment as I was with this one today. We have a situation In which an individual is appointed as the president of a Crown corporation, an individual who was as much involved in the decision making of MTX as Mike Aysan, as Gordon Holland, as all of the other individuals whose hea ds- this government, when in opposition-ca lled for consistently day after day after day. The only reason Mr. Pedde escaped from that was because he was not working for them at the time. Mr.

Speaker, can the minister tell this House why they have hired someone intimately involved in the MTX fiasco to now run the Crown corporation known as the Manitoba Telephone System? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker- An Honourable Member: ... Ed Schreyer, and you are no Ed Schreyer. Mr. Fllmon: The people of Manitoba are very happy about that, I might say. Mr. Speaker, I have a great deal of difficulty understanding the perspective of the Leader of the Liberal Party.

The individual who she has named and seriously maligned is an individual who worked for the Crown corporation, rose through the ranks over a period of some 15 years of employment- not only had a background in the engineering and technical side as an electrical engineer, but also became the head of the marketing side and ultimately a senior vice-president- was regarded as one of the foremost people in that system and then went to the private sector and worked in the private sector as a senior vice-president and had a distinguished career with the Richardson company.

Through all of that, I might say, he left the employ of Manitoba Telephone System when MTX was in its infancy before the four years in which that corporation went hog wild and went into all of the politically driven initiatives to try and become big business over there, left well before the kinds of agreements that Len Evans-sorry , the member for Brandon East-that Al Mackling and all of those people entered into that really caused the corporation to lose $27 million. He got out before any of those things happened. I would think perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, because he did not like the direction it was taking, and now- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable mem bers of our Rule 38.(1 ): A member addressing the House, if called to order by either the Speaker, shall sit down. Manitoba Telephone System Oz Pedde Appointment Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the mo st unpleasant incidents that came to light about MTX was the flogging by the religious police of Manitobans, an incident that Oz Pedde was very much aware of and did nothing to correct the record on.

Can the mi nister tell this House why his involvement in MTX was not considered a factor in the ineligibility of this particular individual to serve as the president of the Manitoba Telephone System? •

(1350) Hon. Glen Findlay (Mi nister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, the MTX affair occurred in the mid-19 80s in terms of the degree of involvement of the NOP government. This member left in 1982, long before the major events of MTX unfolded. The member saw some of the things that were going wrong and he left. The member is a well-respected Individual in the business com mu nity, in the telecommunications business. If the member has any charges she wants to lay, I would be interested to see her lay them, but the member is clean on this issue.

The member has done a good job in the telecommuni cations industry and the business sector, and he left MTS in 1982. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, if he left in 1982, can he explain why a clipping of Monday, July 18, 1983, quotes MTS production development executive, Oz Pedde, saying he was aware of the incident: I heard that some of our MTX employees had a run-in with

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 71 the religious police? All I know is that they were given a warning not to work during prayer time. Pedde said the six MTS employees were caught breaking the law. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable members of Beauchesne's 493(4): "The Speaker has cautioned Members to exercise great care in making statements about persons who are outside the House and unable to reply. " Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, as I have earlier said, the member has been deemed by a search committee to be the most responsible and capable person to lead the corporation in the years ahead. It is unfortunate this memb er and the New Democratic Party have chosen to try to create innuendo and misconceptions about the individual. The MTX issue is closed. That book is bad. It is unfortunate that it happened, and the NOP government of the time was responsible for it. This member left the corporation in the early 1980s, I said 1982.

It is unfortunate that the member wants to raise these allegations at this time, because the member has a reputation that is above none. MOS Resale Head Office Location Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Finance. This government, with the full support of the Liberals, sold MOS, a cost-efficient and profitable publicly owned computer company, to STM Sys tems Corporation. Now, STM's parent company, International Semi-T ech Microelectronics Inc., appears to be selling it at a profit to another company to be controlled by the money-losing Westbridge Computer Corp. of Regina.

In order to not breach the agreement with the province, it is possible that the nominal legal head office would remain in Winnipeg with the exec utive decision-making office being located in Regina. My question to the minister is: What assurances does the minister have that he can abrogate the agreement if the legal head office remains here for window- dressing purposes while the real de facto headquarters is located in Regina? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Min ister of Finance): The legal head office of Manitoba Data Services, which is an entity of STM as covenant under the agreement, will remain in Manitoba in the city of Winnipeg. Let me also indicate that MOS decisions related around its activities in supplying services to the government and supplying services to private industry in Manitoba will continue to be made within the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure whether the mini ster answered the question regarding legal and de facto head office. Golden Share Agreement Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to ask the minister a second question. What power does the minister have to reassume ownership of MOS if the head office or the control is transferred at some future time from Manitoba to Saskatchewan, that is, after the time period expires for the exercise of the golden share? *

(1355) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): The time that the golden share, its powers run out are at the same time when the province wanted to have its covenant, its agreement run out, and that is at the end of five years. At that particular point in time, the government is not required under the contract to buy the computing services from MOS Manitoba, the new configuration of Manitoba Data Services owned by STM. That has been agreed to, and that is the same length as the golden share.

That is the protection that the province built into that agreement, that we had to have services provided for a minimum of five years, and it is during that same period of time that the golden share will stay in effect, regardless of who the material and beneficial owners are of STM Manitoba. Board of Directors Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Another question to the Minister of Finance. ls it correct that Westbridge of Regina, which is indirectly owned by the Saskatchewan government, will have the bulk of the 12 position on the board of directors, with STM and, I guess, IBM each having only one?

In effect, is it not true that the real decision making will occur in Regina regardless of where the legal head office is located? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the short answer to that question is no. I am led to believe that, over a period of years, there may be changes with respect to the configuration of the board. Our great concern at this point in time is

21 72 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 whether or not the Province of Manitoba will be able to safeguard its interests through this beginning . period of time so that it will have representation on the board. I have been provided with notice that indeed the province will be guaranteed that opportunity. Western Premiers' Conference Agricultural Issues Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin) : We were shocked and dismayed in reading the western Premiers' communique that there was absolutely no priority placed on agriculture by the Premiers at the discussions at Nipawin, Saskatchewan, this past week.

Despite what Tories might believe, in the various provinces, the backbone of our rural economy is agriculture, and it is in desperate straits, desperate trouble in our province and across western Canada, yet it was not dealt with in the communique other than on the export side, on the dealing with the countervail issue and GA TI talks and so on, but not on the domestic front.

I ask the Minister of Agriculture, in view of the fact that the minister had a golden opportunity to raise the profile of the serious issues facing agriculture, particularly the debt crisis and the unprecedented offloading by the federal government, why did the min ister not ensur e that the Premi ers were discussing these serious issues facing agriculture on the domestic front and not ignoring them, as is evident in this communique from the Premiers? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): I know that it is very difficult for the member for Dauphin to base his comments from the lack of knowledge that he has sitting back home while the talks are going on there, but I can tell him that the entire discussions were videotaped. I am sure that, if he wants to, he can get a copy and he can verify the fact that, during my talks, I spoke about the fact that the biggest problem facin g agriculture, of cour se, is the hugely depressed prices because of the international grain subsidy war.

Prices that effectively are one-qu arter for wheat today than what they were a decade ago in real dollar terms, that overshadows all of the problems with respect to debt, with respect to financing, with respect to safety-net programs and everything else. All of those converge around the fact that you have wheat selling today for the farmers, the producers of western Canada, who I might say are the most efficient producers, the best producers in the world, having to take a price that is the equivalent of one-quarter in real dollar terms what it was a decade ago.

We talked about that international grain subsidy war and the necessity for all of us to work and have an input to the solution of the GA TI round talks. We talked about getting at the table for the dispute resolution aspects of the Free Trade Agreement so that the pork countervail can be addressed, with having provincial trade mi nisters and, indeed, representatives at the table to protect the interest of our farmers. We talked about that and other things to do with agriculture, Mr. Speaker, so I would suggest that the member for Dauphin do a little more research.

Western Premiers' Conference Agrlcultur al Issues Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin) : I recognize that there was some brief mention of the international situation, and I said that in my

preamble if the mi nister would have been listening, but I asked-you know, the Minister of Agriculture realizes that we must keep our farmers on the land in the short term in order to realize any future recovery and take advantage of that in this country. There is a crisis among our younger farmers, and I ask the minister: Judging from the Premier's response, there was no discussion about dealing with the debt crisis, why did this minister- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. *

(1400) Point of Order Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I just went through a lengthy answer that told him how there was extensive discussion with respect to agriculture. The member may want to ignore it, but he should not misrepresent it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Plohman: Well, obviously the Premier does not even know what the debt crisis is. He is still talking about international grain prices. I want to know what specific action was put on the table and discussed and taken by the Premiers at Nipawin dealing with the debt crisis facing our

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 73 younger farmers, which is crippling their ability to stay on the land? Hon. Glen Findlay (Min ister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the debt crisis did not happen last week; it did not happen last month. It has been in place for a long period of time, brought to bear on particularly the grain farmers of Manitoba and western Canada because of the international grain trade war which has worsened and worsened and worsened. I have to report to the member it has worsened a bit more over the past year.

In response to that, a safety-net mechanism was developed by farmers prima rily to put so me structural predictability to their incomes over a period of time so that they could help to deal with their paym ents, their principal and interest payments that are due on an annual basis. The safety-net mechanism that has been developed over many months is in place, and I am pleased to report the sign-up is very good in the province of Manitoba and gives farmers some structural predictability to be able to pay their debts.

I would also like to report to the member, the overall debt in the farm community in Manitoba has gone down from about $2.1 billion to $1.8 billion in the past two years. Farmers are reducing the degree of liability they have, and they have the safety net to give them the income stability that they need to face their debt situations of the future. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the reason the debt is down is because the farmers are being chased off the land, and this minister knows that it is the younger farmers who are facing the debt crisis. The younger farmers have the vast majority of the debt.

Now I want to ask this minister why, also, he did not raise the issue of the federal offloading, indicate it and have the western Premiers agree thatthey will not tolerate this kind of unprecedented offloading in agriculture that has taken place with GRIP and NISA under this program and this minister? Mr. Findlay: The question of offloading has been on the table of the Minister of Agriculture many times. We have spoken against it on a repeated basis, but at the same time, we have to respond to the farmers' needs out there.

We are in great need right now, great need in the grain industry in order to have a reasonable income. The farmers in Manitoba are going into a very good season now. Moisture has been excellent. The crop is going in the ground. They have some structural predictability to prices. We could have a very good year in agriculture in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. The livestock sector is very good. The prices are reasonable and very good. The farmers know there are some difficulties ahead, and they have dealt with them in a responsible manner by signing up for GRIP, signing up for tripartite stabilization.

The number of young farmers taking

part in the MACC interest rebate program has never been higher. City of Winnipeg Act

Section 624 Repeal Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs. As if this minister's dogged support for the Pines project were not insult enough to the corn mon sense and sense of fairness of Manitobans, the minister is now seeking by Bill 35 to repeal

Section 624.1 of The City of Winnipeg Act. That

section was moved by the Liberal Party last year and was passed in March. It banned commercial construction over waterways once and for all in this city. This minister's colleagues stood up and voted for that amendment in this House, presumably because they realized that governments for too long had desecrated the waterways in this city. Now that they have a majority, they are repealing it. Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister today is: Where is the guarantee that he says is in this act? What is in this act on page 38 is the repeal of

Section 624.1 . Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) earlier, the fact of the matter is that this

section is repealed when the City of Winnipeg passes a by-law to replace the

section that is in the act in order to maintain, at the City of Winnipeg, control over the construction of buildings over top of waterways, not on the banks as alleged by the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, Steve Hrousalas was planning a car wash and office tower over top of Oma nds Creek. I wan t to table a copy of correspondence dated May 28, 1990 from counsel for Mr. Hrousalas, which is sent to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) amongst others. In it a threat to sue the city and the province over the enactment of

Section 624 is made, and that was followed through with a lawsuit.

21 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 Mr. Speaker, why is the minister repealing

Section 624 coincidentally just when the government might actually have to put some money to its mouth to protect the parks and waterways of this city? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I am having difficulty conte mp la ting why the member does not understand what I have said three or four times already during Question Period. The fact of the matter is, the

section will be repealed only when the City of Winnipeg passes a by-law to replace that particular

section in The City of Winnipeg Act. Now that, I think, is reasonably clear and should be able to be understood by my honourable friend from St. James. Mr. Speaker, as I said before, the consolidation of powers for building construction and for rivers and streams authorities are now consolidated at the City of Winnipeg, which has the authority to deal with those issues. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the minister should read his own bill. The word is that the City of Winnipeg may amend the by-law, may amend it. Omands Creek Development Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): For the same minister, is not the real reason that this minister is repealing this

section because he wants to do yet another favour for another of his Tory pals in St. James, Mr. Speaker, and allow Steve Hrousalas to go ahead with his car wash and office tower- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the member, in posing the question, just made the strongest imputation of motive. He seems to be leading with his question, trying an attempt to besmirch the minister. I ask the member, under the rules of our House, to withdraw the question. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of order, I am simply drawing the minister's attention to the lawsuit which is in place and to the fact that this has come forward at an extremely coincidental time, given that they now have a majority. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, it is indeed a serious matter, and I want to be absolutely certain as to what was said. I will take this matter under advisement, and I will report back to the House. Also, while we are on this issue, I would like to remind honourable memb ers of Beauchesne's 410.(1 4).

"Questions should not antici pate an Order of the Day although this does not apply to the budget process. " I note that the honourable member's questions are dealing with a bill which I believe is on the Order Paper for tomorrow, so I would caution all honourable members. *

(1410) Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I am not certain. Would the minister prefer that I repeat the question? Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, kindly rephrase your question, please. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, finally to the same minister, why is the minister coming forward at this time with a repeal of

Section 624.1, given that he knows of the importance to that community of the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have just advised the honourable memb er of the Beauchesne's 410.(14). I will repeat it for the honourable member: Beauchesne's 410. (14), "Questions should not anticipate an Order of the Day .... " As I indicated, I believe the questions are leading up to a bill which will be presently before the House. Therefore, the honourable mem ber's question was out of order, and I have given the honourable member an opportunity to rephrase his question.

The honourable member, rephrase your question now, please. *** Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, what protections will the minister be putting in place to ensure that the car wash and office tower proposed over Omands Creek will not go forward? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Hou sing ) : Mr. Speaker, that matter, of course, ultimately is prohibited under the current City of Winnipeg Act, so no further provisions are necessary. Seniors Programs Plney, Manitoba Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): My question is directed to the honourable Minister responsible for Seniors.

In the Good Book there was a moral question that was asked: If you are asked for bread how come

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 75 you can give stone? Would you give stone when your children ask for bread? Mr. Speaker, the small commu nity of Piney has laboured hard with their volunteers, with their local resource council and some assistance from the public to build their local community centre so they can prepare their kitchen and they can have their congregate meal at least two times a week. They ask for assis tance so they can have their congregate meals for their seniors, and this government again-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Broadway, kindly put your question now, please. Mr.Santos: Can this government explain why they deny the funding for meals for senior citizens of Piney? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister responsible for Seniors): The member from across the way keeps wanting to go back to history. Maybe I can remind him of a little history. I do not have to go back too far, Mr. Speaker. He got up the other day on 55-Plus and he mentioned about history, about deindexing, etcetera. They first introduced 55-Plus in '74. Mr. Speaker, do you know when they introduced indexing-in 1987.

In the best years, '81 , '86, when inflation was at its highest, do you know what they increased the 55-Pl us--zero. Mr. Sa ntos : Will the honourable mi ni ster responsible for senior citizens stand up to his government's commitment to senior citizens, talk with his colleague and provide this funding for meals? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, this government, unlike the other government, have nothing to be ashamed of with their contribution to seniors. We will continue to work with all the departments on seniors, unlike that which I just proved a few minutes ago on the record. Mr.

Santos: When will this government live up to what they say they stand for, that they will provide for our senior citizens? Instead they cut the budget. They freeze the 55-Plus. They cut even meals for senior citizens. How can they do such a thing like this? Mr. Ducharme: The member for Broadway should be embarrassed to get up and try to talk about seniors, of a government that I just showed a few minutes ago gave absolutely no support for the seniors in Manitoba. Core Area Initiative Renewal Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs.

We understand that tomorrow the minister will be meeting with Jake Epp and Mayor Norrie to discuss some issues of common interest to all three levels of government. I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs if renewal of the Core Area Agreement is on the agenda and what position does the minister take to the discussion? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I have indicated, Mr.

Speaker, in the past, and I am happy to indicate again to my honourable friend that we are in discussions with both the city and the federal government with what we can do in terms of new initiatives for the core area of the city of Winnipeg, initiatives that will combine the resources of the city, the province and the federal government, to try and create a better climate, a better society for our people in the inner city of Winnipeg. We will be having some additional discussions when we meet again tomorrow. Those discussions will be ongoing until we finally reach an agreement. Publlc Hearing Process Mr.

James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, the minister has not told us what the position of his government is. His predecessor, the former Minister of Urban Affairs, had announced that there would be a timetable for public hearings to discuss and to evaluate the core area programs. Since the timetable for those public hearings has come and gone, why has the current Minister of Urban Affairs reneged on the commitment made by his predecessor? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated to my honourable friend and to members of the House on previous occasions, you have to have three willing partners if you are going to have an agreement. We are in those discussions at the momen t to try and determine what each of the partners is able to do, what they are prepared to do. Until such time as we come to an agreement on that, there is not much point in going out and raising the expectations of

21 76 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 people in the inner city and having them bring forward programs that may never get off the ground. We have to be able to deal in good faith with our partners in this arrangement, and we will continue to do that as we negotiate. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolltlcal Statements Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Johns have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? Agreed. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, I have just returned from a celebration at Marymound marking 80 years of service, and at noon today this historic occasion was marked with celebratory activities and a reunion for all former staff and former residents, present staff and present residents of Marymound. As all members know, Marymound has made an incredible contribution in our community. This 80 years is an incredibly long record of achievement and a long period of service.

I think we all appreciate the kind of work of Marymound as a nonprofit agency under the sponsorship of the Sisters of the Good Shepherd, responsible for a vast array of residential and commu nity-based treatment services for children, teens and their families in Manitoba. On behalf of all members, I hope, in this House I wish to extend congratulations to the Sisters of the Good Shepherd, the staff and the students of Marymound on their 80th anniversary and wish them well with the support of all members in this House for many years of continued service. Thank you. Hon.

Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Agreed. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Speaker, just on behalfof our government and the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer), who is still over at Marymound helping them to celebrate their 80th anniversary, I want to say that we on this side of the House recognize the longstanding commitment and the volunteer component to any organization that has survived and survived in a very successful way over many, many years to provide assistance for families throughout the city of Winnipeg. *

(1420) I want to commend Marymound. I want to wish them many, many more successful years. I know that all members of the House do share in those comments and sentiments. Thank you. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Can I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? Agreed. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the other mem ber s of this House to congratulate Marymound academy on its 80th birthday.

I was there several weeks ago and spent three hours with staff and students examining in some detail the programs going on within that commu nity. It was also interesting to me that, as so often happens, nuns have records that nobody else ever has about anything. I had mentioned that I had a great aunt who had been a Sister of the Good Shepherd in Halifax. Before I left, they had produced for me a biography of her life which they had on record and distributed to me, That is, quite frankly, typical.

It was also, of course, typical to go through the facility and watch the care and attention to the detail of the community within that establishment so reflective of the kind of contribution they have made to so many agencies throughout this community and many other communities as well. They have a very diverse program. It is not only at the site itself. They have a number of group homes. They have a number of young women who have been with them for an extended period of time and some who have been there for just a short period of time.

I must admit it came as somewhat of a shock to me to discover there were also some young men in the educational component, because I had always assumed it was a facility that only cared for young adolescent women in our community. I, too, join in the congratulations on work well done for 80 years, work we hope they will continue to be able to do for many, many years to come.

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 77 ORD ERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable government House leader, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed? Mr.

Manness : Mr. Speaker, before you put this question to the House, I wonder if you also might ask the mem bers whether there is a willingness to waive private members' hour. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave is denied. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; and the honourable memb er for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. CONCURR ENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Good afternoon. This

section of the Committee of Supply me eting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. When the com m ittee last sat, it had been considering item 1.(

a) Minister's Salary, $20,600. Just as a reminder, the honourable member for Radisson had given some closing remarks shortly before five last Tuesday. I will now recognize the honourable member for lnkster for his closing remarks. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster) : Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I wanted to make a few observations on the government and what the government has been doing in the past number of months, possibly the past few years since they have taken office. I do get an opportunity to go to a number of events. I take that opportunity to discuss different issues with different people.

The issues I find that come up time after time we had dealt with quite extensively during the Estimates, but I did want to leave some closing remarks on the three biggest issues I perceive that come up time after time. *

(1430) The first one is, of course, English as a Second Language. The feeling in many ethnic cultural groups is that without quality English second language being taught, you are not allowing immigrants, in some cases imm igrants who have been here for a large number of years, to be able to participate in society on an equal basis, because it is so important for all of us to have a very good understanding and working knowledge of English. It is something that, as I say, comes up time after time. The government, and the minister responsible for ESL now, in fairness, has just received that responsibility.

One would have thought that there would have been-I hesitate to use the words "better answersn -more detailed answers as to where the money, how much money is going and where that money is actually going to. I would anticipate that come next year we will be able to get those full detailed answers, because there are a lot of question marks in terms of what the real commitment is. I do not believe that the government knows where ESL dollars are going to and that was demonstrated in the answers that we had received. We do not really know how much money is coming in from the federal government towards ESL.

That concerns me, because we have to be able to put forward arguments as to why we feel Manitoba is entitled to more ESL dollars. In order to do that you have to know how mu ch is currently coming into the province. Mr. Deputy Chair person, I also wanted to comment on the whole question of credentials, a very serious issue. These people who come from many different lands bring with them ma ny attributes. One of those is their work experience or their educational background from their homeland. To not use or to not capitalize on that background information or education or work experience, we are

21 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 giving a disservice not only to the imm igrant who has brought those skills to Manitoba or to Canada, but also to the province. The more we use the skills that we have, the more productivity, the greater our society will become. So I would like to have heard more comm ents in regard to what the government is planning on doing to ensure that these individuals are in fact going to be recognized, some type of an idea of a timetable when we can anticipate stronger action from the government. We know that the government has put forwar d a working grou p.

I know it is a time-consuming process, but it is very importantthat we act in a faster fashion than we currently are. We can look to examples. I cited the example of the province of Quebec, wh er e they are accumulating vast data banks in order to try and recognize the edu cational backgroun d or educational credentials, if you will. These are the types of resources that we should be contemplating on tapping into, instead of having to duplicate work and having to wait. The minister had pointed out 15 years or so, they have been working on it. We have only been working on it for the past couple of years. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I do not think Manitoba should have to wait a full 15 years to get at the stage that a province like Quebec is at. We should be able to find out what other jurisdictions are doing and pick and choose what we feel is the best way to work it. Ideally, it would be nice if we had a national program, but because the national government has chosen not to take a role in this issue, the province has been left with a major role to play when it comes to recognizing the credentials. Another issue, the third issue, was in terms of government support to the multicultural community. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, during the past few hours of debate or number of hours of debate, we have gone around that issue from a number of different standpoints. The bottom line for us is, in fact, that mul ticultura l gr ants have been cut by this government from MIC to MGAC. Hon. James Downey (Minis ter of Northern Affairs): You wanted to eliminate them. Mr. Lamoureux : The Deputy Pr emier says I wanted to eliminate them. Had the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) listened to my opening remarks and in fact resolutions, bills that we have been putting forward, I can ensure him that the Liberal Party endorses multicultural funding more so than the Conservative Party, because actions speak louder than words. Had we felt the motion that I had put forward would have passed, the government would have had to bring in a supplementary appropriation to fund multicultural groups. Many, including myself, would have hoped that money would have gone back to where it should be and that is, of course, to the Manit oba lntercultural Council for the disbursements.

That is really where we disagr ee with the government completely. We feel that the minister has done a disservice to the comm unity by taking the funding responsi bili ties away from the commu nities that are most familiar with what is going on in the multicultural area and bringing it to a politically appointed board for distribution. There is no doubt in my mind, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that issue will continue to come back time after time, at least until we get a change in government and there is a change in policy, or if, in fact, the minister chooses to do what we believe is the proper thing and to give MIC back its funding capabilities. That being said, it is important for us to contribute to the multicultural groups in the forms of grants.

These grants ensure and, in part, make us very different from our neighbour to the south of us, because we do believe that preserving our culture and heritage and formulating and supporting a mosaic as opposed to a melting pot is, in fact, part of Canada's identity. Another issue that I wanted to comment on was the whole question of immigration itself. For the past number of years, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, Manitoba has not done well through this government or the government in Ottawa when it comes to receiving our fair share of imm igrants. That causes many people a great deal of concern.

In asking the minister responsible about what her government is doing, I was less than impressed to find out that it really has not been a hotly debated issue within cabinet. This is an issue which is very new to her and, for that reason, it has not been brought to her, I believe, 10-member multicultural committee. •

(1440) That is an issue that should have been brought up not only in her multicultural committee, it should have been brought up, I would argue, in cabinet. If, for whatever reasons, whichever minister was

May 16 , 1-991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 79 responsible for it at the time, I would suggest to you that it was not given a high enough priority, because we are still receiving well below Manitoba's fair share of imm igrants. We know at the same time that this government is trying to figure out what they should be doing, we have other provincial jurisdictions that are making, or attempting at making, agreements with our national government. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, when we see one government, in particular the province of Quebec, who has been able to negotiate more than their percentage of Canada's overall population, that in itself means that some provinces are not going to be able to get their percentage. Because this government has not been treating the issue seriously enough, Manitoba can and likely will, unless there is a change in attitude, lose out. Mr. Deput y Chairp erson , we know what immigration has done for Canada. You only need to look at the north end of the city of Winnipeg.

In fact throughout Manitoba but in particular the north end of Winnipeg is all about immigrants. That is something we believe that the government has to put much more effort on. On that note I conclude my remarks and will look forward to the next debate on multiculturalism. Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I will just make a few brief comments in response. The Liberal critic had said that we are not quite sure how much money we are putting into ESL.

Well I will reiterate again that through my department we are putting $1.17 4 million into Winnipeg School Division No. 1 where there is good quality and good standards for ESL training. We can go back again to agreeing to disagree on how the multicultural commu nity should be funded or through what vehicle. I will not again accept the comments made by the Liberal critic that there has been a decrease in funding. I will get officials from my department to sit down with both opposition critics, and I think in that way it will be easily explainable what has happened over the past number of years.

In fact there is more money not less going to fund the commu nity. As far as immig ration goes, that is the one area I want to spend just a couple more minutes, because it was at my request that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) brought up the issue of imm igration at the Western Premiers' Conference just this past week. I think the comm unique that was sent out is very self-explanatory, and I will just quote from that. "Western Premiers discussed immigration, an area of growing national and provincial significance.

They noted that under current constitutional arrangements, immigration is an area of shared federal and provincial responsibility. Immigration has been and will continue to be a significant factor in the social, cultural, demographic and economic development of provinces. "A number of issues require immediate attention.

The Premiers agree that Canada's immigration policies and programs should be made more effective by: explicitly linking annual immigration levels with the availability of federal and provincial settlement services, and incorporating provincial priorities for la bour ma rket and economic development; providing for greater provincial authority for the selection of immigrants, which is consistent with shared jurisdiction over imm igration; and convening an annual federal-provincial forum to determine objective criteria for allocating federal funds for English as a Second Language (ESL) and other settlement programs, which reflect actual immigrant settlement patterns and costs, across all provinces.

"Accor dingly, the Western Premi ers recommended that: a federal-provincial meeting of Ministers responsible for immigration be held to discuss imm igration policy and program issues." We certainly will be pursuing that, because it is something we are in favour of. Hopefully by next Estimates we will have something to report back on the undertakings at that ministerial meeting. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of that communique in front of me. It raises a question in my mind.

Maybe I am not following, but is it saying that there will be a link between the number of immigrants coming to a province based on the services available and not based on the popula tion that the provinc e represents? Mrs. Mltchelson: It says right here: "explicitly linking annual imm igration levels with the availability of federal and provincial settlement services, and incorporating provincial priorities for labour market and economic development. n

21 80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 Ms. Cerl lll : Can the mi nister describe if her

interpretation is similar to what I am interpreting that as? Mrs. Mltchelson: I would certainly hope, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if we are providing more services than some other provinces for immigrants and if we can obtain the federal funding and the provincial funding to provide better services in this province, we would be given some extra consideration, especially in light of the fact that Quebec has more than its fair share of imm igrants. That means some provinces will obtain less. So in fact if we are providing more services here, I think that should be a consideration.

We should be given consideration based on that. Ms. Cerllll: I would like to give this some more thought. Just overlaying that kind of a policy with a policy where provinces are essentially going to be competing with each other then in negotiating individually for agreements, it is going to set the stage for some interesting situations. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, it certainly will. I am certainly looking forward to negotiating an agreement with the federal government. At that point in time, I think we will put all of our cards on the table. We will indicate the services that we have available.

We will try to clarify from the federal govern me nt, at that time, what they will be contributing to settlement and programming in the province of Manitoba. I would hope that, with our strong support for immigrants and imm igration to our province, we would be able to achieve our goal. Ms. Cer llll: Does the mi nis ter have an understanding of the provincial responsibility for nonrefugee immig rants in terms of dollars for training in English as a Second Language and if that is based on the number of immigrants- this is just in terms of provincial money?

What is the basis for how much money they are going to allocate to those services? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not believe it is done on an immigrant-by- imm igrant or re fugee basis. As a provi nce , we have responsibility also for ensuring that those who are not just refugees, not only new imm igrants either, but all of those who have the inability to speak and understand English in a fluent way. We accept the responsibility for training those people too, so it is not jus t refu gees. It is not done on a refugee-by-refugee basis.

We have put $1.17 4 million into Winnipeg No. 1 for ESL training. People come forward and request the training, and they are put into the system. Ms. Cerllll: The questions that I have are arising from a conversation I had this morning with staff with Canada Employmen t and Imm igration. I am concerned that there will be a change towards having funding based on the number of immigrants. Also, there does not seem to be any federal responsibility for language training for immigrants who are not refugees. From the minister's understanding, can she clarify that? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I believe at this time that the federal government does concentrate their effort on refugees and government-sponsored immigrants. I know that at times the money that is allocated to the province is used in other ways, but it appears that the fede ral gove rnm ent is looking at government-sponsored refugees as their priority.

I guess that would indicate why it might be so crucial to move on with getting an imm igration agreement, so that in fact it could spell out what federal responsibility would be, what provincial responsibility would be and what kind of funding would be coming to the province for settlement programs of all kinds. *

(1450) Mr. Deputy Chairm an: Item 1.(

a) Minister's Salary, $20,600-pass. Resolution 21 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,617, 700 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1992-pass . This completes the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. The next area of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is Lotteries. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister's critics an opportunity to prepare or are they ready? Mrs. Mltchelson: I have to get my staff, so it will take a minute. *** Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): We are now commencing consideration of Lotteries. Does the minister responsible have any opening statements?

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 21 81 Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Mi nister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Yes, I do. I have copies for the critics. I would like at this time to present a brief statement on Lotteries in the Province of Manitoba. The fiscal year 1990-91 represented another year of forward movement in the gaming industry in Manitoba. Manitoba Lotteries Foundation's net revenue for 1990-91 is estimated at $60 million, a 10.5 percent increase over last year. This was due in large part to the first full year of revenue from the Crystal Casino.

The increase represents a competitive response to the realities of a new consumer market, one more cautious with its discretionary spending. The Crystal Casino continued to set the standard for casinos in Canada. 1990 saw the establishment of a cosmopolitan tourist attraction and a successful revenue generator. A special note is the restoration of a second front entrance of the historic Hotel Fort Garry, an architectural feature closed since the late 1940s, once designated as the Ladies Entrance.

The second set of main floor doors once led to a waiting room for female hotel patrons, so that they could check their hair and attire In privacy before entering the hotel. The hotel underwent extensive renovations in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and it is likely that this entrance was closed at that time. The restoration of this entrance, as the designated Crystal Casino entrance, enhances this important historical site and returns it to its original look. Lottery ticket products comprise the major portion of gaming profits with revenue estimated at $44 million.

A unique new product was introduced to Manitobans this past year. The Endangered Species, the series of instant lottery tickets depicting Manitoba's endangered species was created, with proceeds designated for the special conservation fund administered by the Department of Natural Resources. The ticket has been well received by the Manitoba public, increasing awareness of the plight of endangered species, as well as focusing upon some of the worthwhile programs lottery revenue supports. Sport Select, a new sports wagering game was also introduced this past year.

Manitoba's breakopen ticket product line was designed to focus upon nonprofit community-based events or groups. The Blue and Gold breakopen tickets sold at Blue Bomber home games benefitted the Winnipeg Blue Bombers football club, as well as the hundreds of licensed organizations selling the tickets. This led to the creation of the breakopen bonspiel tickets sold during the World Curling Championships held in March. The record number of tickets sold at these events show us the importance of supporting special events held in Winnipeg. Manitoba Marathon and Grey Cup tickets are in development.

Over 1, 800 organ izations benefitted from Manitoba's lottery licensing system. Charitable and religious organizations throughout Manitoba raised funds through bingos, raffles, the sale of breakopen tickets and other licensed events. Revenue was returned to the community organizations directly through their own volunteer-operated events. A major initiative of the Security and Licensing divis ion is the creation of In dian gaming commissions. January 1990 saw the creation of The Pas Indian Gaming Commission, the first Indian gaming com mission in Manitoba.

Through a co-oper ative effort of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, the Department of Native and Northern Affairs and the Justice Department, negotiations with Indian gaming bands continue. On May 9, we signed the second Indian gaming com mission agreement with the West Region Economic Development Corporation representing nine Indian Bands. Discussions with other bands have been encouraging. Manitoba is proud to offer this model of negotiated resolution on this issue. The role of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation is to offer a socially acceptable mix of gaming products to Mani tobans.

A controlled and organized approach to gaming activities has been and will continue to be the standard for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. The 1990-91 fiscal year just completed saw the first complete year of operation of the Lotteries Distribution System within the community support programs. I am very pleased to report that the objec tive of providing ma na gement and co-ordination to the distribution of lottery funds through government departments, as well as providing information accessability to the people of Manitoba, has been met successfully.

The Lotteries Distribution System office has proven to be a valuable asset to community organizations seeking assistance in accessing the Lotteries system. This has resulted from a

21 82 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 consistant co-ordinated approach to the distribution of lottery revenues throughout Manitoba. Manitoba's unique Lotteries Distribution System was revised in 1989 to ensure that it could be flexible enough to respond to changing needs and priorities. Our ongoing comm itment to art, sport, multicultural conservation, heritage, commu nity service and health care programs continues to enrich the lives of all Manitobans. Revenues from gaming activities in Manitoba has been designed to improve the quality of life available in our province.

Good things are happening in our communities. Lottery revenues assist a wide variety of exciting and im portant organiz ations. These volunteer-based groups represent the comm itted Manitobans who know how to make a difference. I am pleased that Manitoba's gaming revenues helps these organizations enhance their own commu nity-based projects and programs. Each year gives us the opportunity of ensuring that our province can continue to offer the quality of life Manitoban's expect. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Does the critic from the official opposition party, the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar), have any opening statements? Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selklrk): No. Actually, I think I will waive my opening statement and go directly into questions. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the honourable member. Does the critic for the second opposition party, the honourable member for lnkster, have any opening statements? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster) : No. Mr. Dewar: I was wondering if the minister could explain to us which games are making money and which games are sliding? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I am informed that all of the games are basically stable or fluctuate up and down very slightly, but none of them are losing money. *

(1500) Mr. Dewar: Could you explain those trends? Like, why would some be losing? Would you know that? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess there are fluctuations based on the size of the pot sometimes. For example, with the 649, if in fact there is a larger pot, ticket sales are higher and there is more revenue generated in those instances. Mr. Dewar: I noticed that the minister failed to mention the marketing division of the Western Canada Lottery Corporation being moved out of Winnipeg to Stettler, so maybe I will have some questions on that.

How many jobs did Manitoba lose when the marketing division moved to Stettler, Alberta? Mrs. Mltchelson: The number of positions that will be relocated to Stettler is 52 positions. Five of the people presently have indicated that they will transfer to Stettler. Mr. Dewar: They may have been relocated, but they are Manitoba's loss. How many people work at the Western Canada Lotteries Foundation headquarters here? Mrs. Mltchelson: Approximately 200 em ployees. Mr. Dewar: So that is about 25 percent of the Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Mr. Dewar: What would be the payroll of the 52 employees who left-ap proximate payroll?

Mrs. Mltchelson: About $2 million. Mr. Dewar: Can the minister explain to us why we lost those jobs? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I could go back to when the NOP were in power and the former minister responsible for Lotteries was faced with the same situation, Alberta had indicated at that time that they would like to see head office jobs in Manitoba, and I believe the position of the NOP government of the day was that rather than transfer any jobs to Alberta, we would rather discontinue operating Western Canada Lotteries Corporation.

If that had been the case we would have lost close to 100 jobs here in the province, because jobs that would be maintained if we were not part of a three-province corporation, we would not have required the number of staff. So we could have lost twice as many jobs as a result of us separating from Western Canada Lottery. When we became government, we started a negotiation process and met with the other two provinces, and I guess there was some agreement that, in fact, we had to share some of the economic benefit.

Alberta was the province that did 60 percent of the ticket sales and yet they did not feel they were getting their share of economic benefit. So, in fact, it was not something that we approved of specifically. It was not the direction we wanted to take, but we were one of three partners and the other two provinces felt that Alberta should be recognized

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 83 for the revenue that they generated in some way. So, the losses were kept to a minimum, but it was something that had been ongoing. Maybe if the former administration had still been in power we would have seen the corporation split up and over 1 00 jobs lost from the province. Mr. Dewar: What assurances does this minister have that no more jobs will be lost? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I can never give complete assurance that there will not be more jobs lost, but there has been a commitment by the three provinces that, in fact, this, for now anyway, will satisfy Alberta. There is a sense that we want to move on with new initiatives through Western Canada Lottery, and all provinces are onside. So, just as we have made the decision that the corporation is going to continue to operate the way it is presently, I can never give assurances forever and a day that there will not be more demands at some point in time.

For the time being, we have a corporation that is still together, and we have kept the job loss to a minimum, recognizing Alberta's desire to have some of the economic benefit. Mr. Dewar: Yes, can the mi nister tell us: Is Saskatchewan now demanding jobs? Mrs. Mltchelson: No. Mr. Dewar: Well, that is reassuring. Can she explain the negotiating procedure that takes place with other ministers on this particular issue? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess it is a matter of, when you have three partners in a corporation of some sort, there have to be some fairness and some equi ty.

It has been a longstanding problem. Alberta is the major player. They represent about 60 percent of the ticket sales for the corporation. The head office was in Winnipeg, and they felt that they ultimately would have loved to have had the head office relocated to Alberta. We were not prepared to do that. We could have given a couple of ultimatums. We could have said, no, we will not move any jobs. If you feel you want jobs in Alberta, take the jobs and go. We do not want to be any part of the corporation. We chose not to do that as any negotiation process. I do not know if the member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar) has ever been involved in negotiations. You know, and I am sure you understand, that when there are union negotiations that, in fact, there is give and take on both sides. You come to a decision, hopefully, down the middle somewhere where both sides can live with the agreement that is finally reached. We sat down, we talked about it. Saskatchewan, being a province that did not want any jobs, was one that facilitated some of the negotiations at some point in time when they felt that it was to their benefit to keep the corporation together.

It really was to the benefit of Manitoba to keep the corporation together, too. We would have probably experienced fairly major losses in lottery revenues as a result of our not having as large a market to attract ticket sales and to share in those benefits. So it was a process where we sat down, we discussed, went back and forth like any other negotiation process, and the end result was a result that we could live with. Mr. Dewar: Who made that final decision? Was it the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or was it the minister? Mrs.

Mltchelson: It was the negotiation of the three ministers responsible for Lotteries across the three provinces. In fact, it was an agreed-to decision by all three ministers. Mr. Dewar: Do you feel that the Premier of Alberta put any pressure on the Premier of Manitoba? Mrs. Mltchelson: I would believe that we indicated clearly that we wanted the impact to be minimal on the province of Manitoba. I just have to go back again to the fact that when the NOP were in power, the minister stood up and very clearly indicated, we are not going to move any jobs to Alberta.

Alberta, when we became government, was saying to us, we want jobs, and if we are not going to get jobs from Western Canada Lottery, we are going to disband the corporation. Alberta is the only province that could succeed in a more viable way with that kind of thing happening. It made good business sense to keep the corporation together. There was a minimal loss for the province of Manitoba, and we felt it was the right way to go. Mr. Dewar: I was wondering how much this move is going to cost the Western Canada Lottery foundation. Mrs.

Mltchelson: It is going to cost the Western Canada Lottery Corporation around $2.7 million. Our share of that cost will be about 25 percent. Mr. Dewar: Is the foundation utilizing the extra space that it has now in the building?

21 84 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the move has not taken place yet, and it will not take place until the fall of this year. Mr. Dewar: It will not take place until they build the facilities in Stettler, Alberta, which are nonexistent I believe at the time. I was just wondering how much money was lost during the casino strike of last year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Our indications were that after the first full year of operation, we would generate $10 million in revenue. The final total after a two-month strike, the revenue that was generated was $8.7 million. *

(1510) Mr. Dewar: What would be the daily income of the casino, approximate daily income? Mrs. Mltchelson: Approximately $30,000 a day. It fluctuates of course based on what day of the week it might be. Mr. Dewar: What would the strike have cost in terms of revenue to the casino? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is hard to determine what the cost would be. Instead of us realizing after the first full year of operation $1 0 million, we generated $8. 7 million.

We will have to take a look at what the next full year of operation will be since the strike and be able to give an accurate figure on what we believe we would be able to achieve on a year-by-year basis. Mr. Dewar: Can you tell me what the negotiated settlement will be costing the operation with the workers? Mrs. Mltchelson: Approximately $100,000. Mr. Dewar: So $100,000 to settle and revenues were down $1.3 million-int eresting mathematics. When does the current contract run out? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the contract did run out on March 1 , but they have applied for final offer selection. Mr.

Dewar: What is the pay scale at the casino, the range? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the salaries range from $7 per hour to about $16 per hour with tips added on to that, tips approximately $5 per hour, anywhere from $2 to $5 the range per hour per tips. Mr. Dewar: What would be the average wage then? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my understanding is that has to be weighted. It will take a few minutes to figure that out. Maybe we could come back to that answer. Maybe you could ask another question or two, and we will come back and provide the answer. Mr. Dewar: What about sexual parity?

Would there be more men or more women working there? Mrs. Mltchelson: Ask Albert. He is a frequent An Honourable Member: How much are you down, Albert? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): One quart. Bonnie, seeing I go there once in a while, maybe I should answer the questions, eh. Mrs. Mltchelson: Is the question just for the casino?-73 females and 66 males. Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister some questions about advertising policy for Lotteries in Manitoba. Who is responsible for what we see on the air? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Western Cana da Lottery Corporation. Mr. Carr: What is the relationship between us and them? Do we have any input into what viewers finally see on the air? Mrs. Mltchelson: If I can explain how Western Canada Lottery operates first of all, then I will answer that. Each province has two board mem bers on the Western Canada Lottery Corporation. The board members in the past have not had as much direct hands-on in approval of the advertising campaigns.

Since the last one was pulled, the Pogo ads, I have directed my two board members who sit on the Western Canada Lottery Board to take a much more hands-on approach to view the ads and ensure that they are not offensive, in fact, before they are aired. Mr. Carr: Many of the ads are offensive. They tend to be sexist; they portray women as blundering blonds, and have. They appeal to dreaming and scheming. They leave the impression that all you have to do is buy a lottery ticket and somehow your life will be changed forever. They appeal to base interests and, frankly, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, when I watch them I am embarrassed, and I am not a prude by nature. Many of them are shameful, because they bring out lust, greed, and they appeal to what is not best and finest about the human character. I would be interested in knowing if the minister agrees with that assessment and if she has

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 85 instructed her representatives on the board of the corporation to advertise in a way which would be more acceptable to the viewer. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would be interested in knowing what specific ads. I believe that in the past we have had some problem, and we may still experience that on the odd occasion, but when we talk about the ads being sexist, I know the one that we pulled previously- An Honourable Member: Was that one, oh, my hero? Mrs.

Mltchelson: No, chickie, chickie, the chickie, chickie one where they had this sort of greasy male character sort of having an appeal to, or attempting to appeal to, all women. We had calls on both sides of that issue as a matter of fact. There were women who called and said the ads were sexist against women. We also had men call and say that the ads did not portray the male image in the proper manner. So there were calls on both sides of that issue, and we did pull the ad.

I have instructed my board members to take a more sensitive look at the ads in the future, and I do trust their good judgment that in fact if there is something that they perceive to be offensive in some way, in fact it would not be approved. Mr. Carr: Is the foundation planning any expansion of the gaming industry in Manitoba? Do they plan to open more casinos? Do they plan to introduce more games? Do they plan to allow more licences to be granted? What is the trending and the direction that the corporation wants to take us? Are we staying the cou rse?

Are we enh ancing, improving, expanding the gaming industry, or is there some sense that perhaps maybe it is time to pull back a little bit? Which way are we going? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess through the Western Canada Lottery Corporation we are studying video lottery terminals, as a corporation, and they are test marketing them in Alberta this summer. As far as casinos, there are no plans for new casinos in the province of Manitoba. As far as licensing, people apply for licences, and they are not turned down unless they do not meet the criteria.

Everyone who does apply for a licence who falls within the criteria does receive one. * (1 520) Mr. Carr: I see the figures year over year in the annual report that the committee is debating today, but I would be interested in knowing what the overall trending is in Canada, indeed across the world. Is the gaming industry growing? How quickly is it growing? What does the corporation anticipate to be its revenue base next year, two years, three years down the road? Mrs. Mltchelson: Growth in revenue is basically static.

Increases that do occur are mainly as a result of new jurisdictions, the midwestern States, for instance, that had never been in gaming activities entering into gaming activities. If you are looking at an overall global picture, probably there has been an increase in gaming revenue, but it is because there are areas that were not in the industry before and are now in. As far as Manitoba goes, I guess basically we are pretty stable in our Lotteries revenues over the last few years. There has not been any major increase. The only increase, or noticeable increase, would be as a result of the casino opening. (Mr.

Jack Reimer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Carr: Mr. Acting Chairman, some of these states immediately to the south of us have become much more aggressive in the gaming industry. Many hotels in North Dakota advertise blackjack casinos. What is the policy of the government in attracting tourists to Manitoba using the gaming industry as a hook, or as an attraction? Has there been any change in the government's position since last year? Mrs. Mltchelson: The only hook we might have at this point is the Crystal Casino and about 25 percent of the traffic through the casino is tourist attraction. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Acting Chairman, my question was, are we using that attraction in our tourism advertising? Are we boastful of the gamin g opportunities that we "enjoy" in Manitoba as a way of luring tourists to our province rather than to other places where they may not have such a fulsome range of gambling choices? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there is some marketing and some advertising done in the southern states, in southwe stern Ontario, southeastern Saskatchewan and North Dakota, so we are using it in our tourism advertising as an alternative form of entertainment. Mr.

Carr: Does the mi nister think that is an appropriate use of our tourism advertising dollar? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we do not use the Manitoba government"s tourism dollars

21 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 to advertise the casino. If the casino piggybacks onto tourism advertising, it is paid for by the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. Mr. Dewar: I was going to pick up again when he was talking about video lotteries scheme. Is the minister considering introducing this scheme into Manitoba? Mrs. Mltchelson: I think every province across the country is studying it. I indicated we are studying. There has been no firm decision made yet. The Western Canada Lottery Corporation is going to test market it in Alberta this summer. Mr.

Dewar: Do you know, in your considerations of this project, whether the machines will be owned by the government or will they be owned by private enterprise? Mrs. Mltchelson: That is something that is being studied, too. There is no decision made on that. Mr. Dewar: When the foundation pulled those Pogo ads, do you know how much money was lost? Mrs. Mltchelson: The total cost to the Western Canada Lottery Corporation was about $230,000. Mr. Dewar: Where are these ads made? Mrs. Mltchelson: In Alberta. Mr. Dewar: Are they tendered out? Mrs.

Mltchelson: They are done by an agency of record in Alberta and that agency is determined by tender. Mr. Dewar: I want to speak about lottery terminals. What is the criterion that the department uses in determining the placement of a lottery terminal? Mrs. Mltchelson: The total cost to the Western Canada Lottery Corporation was about $230,000. Mr. Dewar: Where are these ads made? Mrs. Mltchelson: In Alberta. Mr. Dewar: Are they tendered out? Mrs. Mltchelson: They are done by an agency of record in Alberta and that agency is determined by tender. Mr. Dewar: I want to speak about lottery terminals.

What is the criteria that the department uses in determining the placement of a lottery terminal? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, anyone can apply for passive tickets. Those are instant tickets, scratch tickets. When they reach a sale level of around $30,000 per year, then they would be eligible for a terminal. Mr. Dewar: So it Is based upon dollar figure per year? What about location or security? Mrs. Mltchelson: There also is consideration given to location and security. If there is one very clo sely adjac ent, that would be taken into consideration, too.

There is a licensing division of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation that deals with all of the requests. Mr. Dewar: Last year, at the Selkirk Friendship Centre there was a robbery following a bingo. I believe there was one in Winnipeg as well. What actions has this minister taken to improve security at these bingos? Mrs. Mltchelson: If it is a licensed bingo that the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation licences, all we do is provide the licence. It is up to the organization that is holding the bingo to provide their own security. Mr.

Dewar: Will this min ister investigate the possibility of establishing some sort of a security program or policy? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I do not really know what the mem ber for Selkirk is leading to. Is he indicating that we should send Lotteries Foundation staff out as security to the community bingos? I think you would probably find the bingo organizations would not agree with that kind of thing, because it would minimize their profits and the amount of money they could spend on community activities. *

(1530) Mr. Dewar: No, I am thinking maybe guidelines for volunteers, simple procedural security measures that could be followed. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there are about 800 licences given out per year for community bingo activities. There are consultants. There are three staff at Mani toba Lotteries Foundation that do work with the com munity organizations that are asking for bingo licences. In fact, I guess there have been two robberies over-I know it is always a concern.

Nobody wants to see especially a comm unity organization with a lot of volunteers having their money taken in such a manner, but with the number of licences that are provided we have not noticed a high incidence. Mr. Dewar: I talked to some of these groups, and they are looking to the foundation for some guidance, and they are not getting any. They are very concerned. These are armed robberies.

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 87 Mrs. Mltchelson: There are some things in place through the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, but if there are some specifics where there is an organization that feels that they are not getting enough assistance, I would certainly like to hear about that. I have attempted since becoming minister to ensure there is a focus on service for the volunteer community out there that really worked so very hard to generate revenues for very worthwhile commu nity projects.

We have tried to put more of an emphasis on customer service, and if in fact there are some organizations I would like to know that. I am sure staff at the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation would like to know that, if there are any changes in the structure of the organization that an emphasis should be placed in that way, in that manner. Mr. Lamoureux: I wanted to pick up on something that the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) had brought up. That is, of course, the advertising. Mr. Acting Chairperson, I have always been of the opinion that government should lead by example.

When I say government, I am not only referring to the government departments, but I am also referring to thos e corpor ations that are government-sponsored, if you will. You turn on virtually any channel, even our own CBC, and you find that there are many different types of TV commercials that many individuals find somewhat offensive. I would like to see, and many people expect, government to spend their, how should I say, advertising dollars in the best of taste. Government can adver tise , in my opi nion , have those com me rcials that are being adve rtised .

Government should be aware of them prior to their being advertised. I know the minister made reference to the chick chickie chick or whatever that particular commercial was. I do not believe that one was aired, I do not watch commercials, it was aired in Manitoba. I know that there were some very offensive commercials that had started off in Alberta. At least I was under the impression that they had started off in Alberta. It was actually a reporter who had come up to me and asked me to comment on it.

I did not hear about the commer cial and had understood that the mi ni ster had interfered to ensure that the commercials were not going to be coming to Manitoba. Did that in fact happen? Mrs. Mltchelson: Pardon? Mr. Lamoureux: Did that happen? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, it did. It was on the POGO commercials. There was a sense before it was even to be aired here in Manitoba that it was offensive to mothers, I think. I indicated that if in fact there were people who were going to be offended by a commercial, I did not want to see it aired here in Manitoba, so subsequently it was not aired. Mr.

Lamoureux: In many cases, when you advertise through the TV you have an advertising package that includes your newsprint, radio and so forth. Was the same thing done for the other media outlets for that? Mrs. Mltchelson: There were some very basic differences in the TV advertising as opposed to the paper advertising, and the line that was deemed to be offensive in the TV advertising was not in the other forms of advertising so, in fact, they went ahead and the TV was pulled. Mr.

Lamoureux: I understand that each province has two board members, but is there something in place that looks at the advertisements and advises the minister and advises the board members? If there is, I would ask what it is and how it goes about being pulled? Mrs. Mltchelson: Subsequent to this ad being pulled, and the concern that we are not using our advertising dollars, obviously, in the best manner if we have an ad in its final stage that we do not feel can be aired, I have asked the board members to take a more active role in analyzing the ads before they get to their final finished product.

Of course, that will be a recommendation that they will be going forward to the board with, asking if they can have a little more hands-on control. Mr. Lamoureux: I would ask the minister what happens if Manitoba decides to pull an ad? Are we compensated at all for not playing those ads? Is there anything that happens as a result of us pulling it? Mrs. Mltchelson: No. Mr. Lamoureux: So we would have, in fact, paid for the ad? Mrs. Mltchelson: All three provinces did pay, and all three provinces pulled the ad. Mr. Lamoureu x: The advertisin g agency is tendered, as I understand, in Alberta. Is that where

21 88 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 they come up with the ideas, or if we get some ideas in Manitoba, is it funneled through our board members? How does that work? If we feel, for example, that there are certain things that we want to highlight-if you go through the annual report, you will find that the different tickets fluctuate in terms that some sales increase, some sales go down. If we felt that it is in our best interest to advertise this type of ticket as opposed to a different ticket, what influence do we have other than the two board mem bers?

Can we go in our own direction if we so choose? Mrs. Mltchelson: Each province has two board members and, in fact, they take ideas forward to the board. Ultimately it is the majority of the Western Canada Lottery Corporation Board members who make a decision. In some instances, there is flexibility on tickets. If the corporation decides to go ahead with a new ticket and it is agreed to-well, it would be agreed to by two-thirds of the board-it would proceed. Not every province, in fact, though, does have to go with the ticket if they do not want to. In some cases, provinces can determine what tickets they do want.

In the case of the Endangered Species ticket, there was a decision that all provinces would go ahead with a $5 scratch ticket. Manitoba, because of the profile we wanted to put on conservation and endangered species, chose that theme for our ticket. Both Alberta and Saskatchewan did not consider that a priority and they went with Casino Royale, just a standard, generic ticket, but we decided to place an emphasis on conservation and so we chose the endangered species tickets. We all had the same tickets. They called it something different in selling it in their provinces.

We decided what we would do with our tickets. *

(1540) Mr. Lamoureux: Can or does the province enter into any advertising agreements on its own or, for example, if Saskatchewan wants a certain type of a commercial in Alberta and Manitoba, is it all one package? You are in it whether you support it or not after the votes have been taken? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there is one advertising agency for the corporation and economically it would not be feasible for each province to have their own advertising at this point. It is one ad agency that does the work for all three provinces. Mr.

Lamoureux: The casino itself has advertising and I am wondering who does the commercials for the casino. Mrs. Mltc helson : Mr. Acting Chairper son, Western Canada Lottery Corporation has the responsibility for the ticket sales. The casino is the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. It is not part of a Western Canada Lottery initiative. There are certain things that each province can do independently. There are certain things that it is feasible to do through the Western Canada Lottery Corp oration because, as I said, it is mor e economically feasible.

You want a larger market share to spread the number of tickets over so, in fact, there are greater ticket sales, therefore maximizes profit. The casino is our initiative and that is an initiative of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, so we are independent of Western Canada Lottery. Mr. Lamoureux: Given that we are independent, who is the advertising agency, if you will, for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation? Mrs. Mltchelson: Foster/Marks. Mr. Lamoureux: That is a Winnip eg or a Manitoba-based company, is it? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, the advertising that goes through there, does that go through the board here in Manitoba? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes it does. Mr. Lamoureux: I wanted to move on to another issue in which Saskatchewan entered into-I think it was two years when we first started it, and that was to tax tickets. I am interested in knowing if the government, if the minister has looked into-I am not asking her if she has considered doing it here in Manitoba- some of the costs to the lotteries association as a direct result of that, I think it was 7 percent, tax. I am not sure. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, the revenue generated by each province through the Western Canada Lottery Corporation is determined by the amount of ticket sales per individual province. Saskatchewan had a major decrease in ticket sales as a result of the tax but it directly affected their revenue because, of course, they had a lower percentage of ticket sales and therefore got a lower percentage of the return back to the province. It did not impact the other two provinces. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the minister might not have at hand or maybe has not

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 21 89 looked at it, but I am interested in knowing what type of decrease in sales Saskatchewan would have had as a direct result-just approximate. It is more so out of curiosity than anything else. Mrs. Mlt chelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, it is pretty hard for us to have accurate details on Saskatchewan, but we can estimate in the range of about 25 percent decrease in ticket sales. Mr. Lamoureux: I think that in itself says a lot about how one should be collecting taxes when it comes to lotteries.

I would expect the minister, if she has given it any thought, and there is no reason why I say that she might have given thought, I hope she has not given that thought. Has she ever given any consideration to the taxing of the winnings, or did the corporation or the government? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I think the experience from the United States indicates, because they do tax their winnings, that our games are much more productive and have much more positive sales, so there is really no inclination to tax winnings at this point. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, nor am I suggesting that we actually tax them. I would want to move into the Crystal Casino and go into the daily attendance. Are we looking at increased daily attendance? Is there an estimated average number of people? Mrs . Mltch elso n : There are approxi mately 390,000 visits per year. It fluctuates somewhere between 30,000 and 35,000 visitors per month, and it has been pretty stable. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, when we started the advertising for the casino, the minister had made reference that we advertise in the western part of Ontario, eastern Saskatchewan, North Dakota.

She mentioned that we get-25 percent of the casino's business is, in fact, out of town. Is it fair to say that is where 95 percent of them are coming from? Mrs. Mltchelson: We have had visitors from as far away as Europe, but we do get the business traffic, the business person who comes into town on business and goes to the casino for a form of evening's entertainment. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, to the minister, are we receiving any type of indication that we actually have people who are coming to Winnipeg as a direct result of the casino?

I know I always hear from people who are going to Edmonton to visit the West Edmonton Mall, now the casino is no West Edmonton Mall. Does the casino have any impact on people in terms of, well, I am going to go to Winnipeg to go to the casino? Is it that strong of a drawing card for the government or for Manitoba? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, it is my understanding that it is a pre- and post-convention draw at times. People do come a couple of days earlier or stay a couple of days later, you know, when they are coming to Winnipeg for a convention. We have had bus tours also attend. Mr.

Lamoureux: It is interesting in terms of the bus tour. Is that bus tours that are just going through different provinces and then they are enticed to come to the casino, or are these bus tours that are actually coming up to Winnipeg strictly for the use of the casino and then going back? I know, for example, that we have bus tours that will go to an American city for the weekend to stay there for a couple of tourist attractions, if you will, and then come back. Are we getting that type of traffic for the casino? •

(1550) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there have been bus tours that have been specifically organized to come up to the casino, and those are the only ones that I am aware of. Mr. Lamoureux: The people that are coming from out of town to gamble at the casino-there is an estimated profit, let us say, of $10 million, and we get approximately 25 percent from out of town. Is it safe then to assume that we are ge tting approximately $2.5 million from them, or are we finding the out of town people are, in fact, spending-we ll I should not say spending, possibly losing-more when they come to the casino? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Acting Chairperson, it is pretty hard to tell because we do not know exactly what they are doing. Some are playing on the slot machines and some are at game tables. We do not know as people walk in the door. We do know from surveys, which might be done as people do come in the door, where they are from, but we do not monitor them while they are there to see how much they are spending at the slot machines or at each individual card table. Mr. Lamoureux: So, I guess, we are probably looking in and around that 25 percent. Mr.

Acting Chairperson, on numerous occasions we hear about, if I can use the word "freebies" that are given

21 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 16 , 19 91 to customers that visit the casino, and I know it has upset many individuals. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) On my way to work, often I will listen to CJOB and you will get an irate citizen calling and talking about these freebies. In fact, I have had letters sent to me, and I know the minister has, because I have one of them that I can recall offhand that was cc'd to myself and addressed to her. So I am wondering if the minister can tell us, is there a government policy or a policy from the casino when it comes to handing out freebies? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I am informed, it is a casino policy, yes, for complimentaries. I guess it is a marketing tool that is used in casinos to a much, much greater degree in the United States, I might say. About one cent on every dollar of revenue generated in Manitoba is spent on complimentaries, which could be anyth ing from nonalcoholic beverages to a meal for play at the casino. In Atlantic City, for instance, they spend about 26 percent. I indicated that here at the casino, the policy is about one cent on every dollar is spent on complimen taries, which is any thin g from a nonalcoholic beverage to a meal.

In Atlantic City, they spend about 26 cents out of every dollar on complimentaries. In Vegas, it is about 14 cents or 15 cents on every dollar. So it is a commonly practised marketing tool used. As I indicated, ours is very minimal in comparison to other places. Mr. Lamoureux: One cent of every dollar, that would-I do not have a calculator with me. What is that in terms of real dollars? Mrs. Mltchelson: The total yearly amount spent on complimentaries would be around $200,000, about $113,000 on alcoholic beverages within the casino and about $88,000 on meal vouchers. Mr.

Lamoureux: The policy of who receives these vouchers, is there someone who walks around, and someone who has been playing a game for a couple of hours will be handed a voucher? How does that work? Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess people at the casino are tracked to a certain degree, whereby it would be those that frequently attended the casino and played bets anywhere from $25 to $500. Those are the people that normally would accept or be presented with a meal voucher or drinks. Mr. Lamoureux: If you were to go into- they have two rooms. I was there once. There is the one with the slot machines. Mrs.

Mltchelson: Did you win? Mr. Lamoureux: That I will not comment on. played the slot machines with a 20-dollar bill and played the quarters. I found that way I could stay longer. But it is safe to assume then that if you are in the slot machine room, you are not given any of the tickets then, because there is no way you can bet? Mrs. Mltchelson: I am told that it would be very rarely at a slot machine unless somebody is a real frequent attender. Most of the time it would be in the other room, on the card and the table games. Mr.

Lamoureux: Are the drinks vouchers given in the Fort Garry Hotel from the restaurant below or where do the vouchers apply? Where do you get them from? Mrs. Mltchelson: Those drinks, the $113,000 for drinks, are controlled on the seventh floor. There is a special chip, I guess, that is given to a player at the casino, and they would be entitled to a nonalcoholic drink because that is all they serve on the seventh floor. They would use that chip there, so it is controlled in that way. Mr. Lamoureux: So there are no alcoholic drinks that are given as coupons? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Only, I su ppose, if somebody wanted to order a drink if they had a meal voucher, and it would be controlled through that. Those would not be on the seventh floor. That would be in the restaurant that they might be using the voucher in. Mr. Lamoureux: The meal vouchers, where do those meal vouchers come from? I understand that, at least I have received one letter-a gain I am just going from the letter-st ating that they have seen vouchers that go to restaurants outside of the Fort Garry. Is that correct? Mr. Lamoureux: There is a selection of restaurants within close proximity to the Fort Garry.

It is not necessarily a voucher at the Fort Garry Hotel, but there are restaurants and hotels within close proximity that are used for the vouchers. •

(1600) Mr. Lamoureux : Do we know the numbers? Are these select restaurants. Mrs. Mltchelson: A cross

section from medium to upscale restaurants in the area.

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 91 Mr. Lamoureux: That would be a considerable amount of business, $88,000 worth of meals. Are all the restaurants in the immediate area, at least, aware of the fact that the casino is giving out these vouchers and maybe can bid or put in for tendering, if you will? Mrs. Mltchelson: All the hotels in the area know about it through the Manitoba Hotel Association and if, in fact, the casino is approached, they are all put on the list if they are within reasonable proximity. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I know that there is a restaurant association-the name of it slips my tongue at the moment-and there is also the hotel association here in Manitoba. I would suggest that both organizations should be let known of the fact that there are coupons or these token coupons for meals are available and can be made available. All they have to do is approach the corporation and see if they can negotiate some type of a deal so there is no exclusivity to it. I did want to get back into the awarding of these vouchers on the other side where they had played the card games and whatever else in there.

Are there certain games on that side where the vouchers are handed out, or is it fair to say it could be at any one of the tables or games? Mrs. Mltchelson: It is at the high-limit tables normally, and it is based on how much the play is by a customer. Mr. Lamoureux: Is it the people behind the card table, the roulette table, that are handing out the vouchers, or is it a manager who walks around? Mrs. Mltchelson: It is always a management person who is involved. Mr.Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to move on to the number of games.

Has there been any thought given to expanding the casino on that floor or bringing in any additional games? Mrs. Mltchelson: We are in the process of putting in 35 more 25-cent slot machines on the slot machine side. There may be the ability to bring in two more table games, not at this point, but there might be that ability. That would be the maximum capacity. Mr. Lamoureux: Is that because they ar e increasing the floor space? ls there more being renovated in the area, or are we replacing others? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if the member has been there.

I have only walked through once on a tour. He may be aware of the huge change table that was in the slot machine room, and it is much too big for the facility and much too big for the requirements. So that is going to be removed, and the slot machines will go in that area. Mr. Lamoureux: Has the department or the board been approached by any other organization outside of government agencies to establish other casinos? Mrs. Mltchelson: The City of Brandon has approached us to open a casino in Brandon. Of course, Joe Slogan, on the river boat MS Lord Selkirk, had approached government to open a casino. Mr.

Lamoureux : Is the government currently dialoguing with the Lord Selkirk or the Brandon offi cials? Have they given any though t to expanding? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the mayor of Brandon is a fairly persistent person but, in fact, we have indicated to him, at this point in time, we are not looking at expansion of casinos. On the Lord Selkirk, we have indicated to Joe Slogan, too, that we are not going to expand casinos in the province of Manitoba, and there would not be an opportunity to open a casino on the Lord Selkirk. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Cha irperson, I thought I had my figures right here. Can the minister tell me the actual dollars that went from the casino to the health care in the last fiscal year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think you would have to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) the actual expen ditures within his department because he would be allocated a certain amount, and I do not know how much of that was spent. We indicated that we would be looking at $10 million for innovative health care projects, and I cannot tell you how much was actually approved and spent. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Recess five minutes?

Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. *** The committee took recess at 4:07 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 4:17 p.m. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Mr. Lamoureux: I believe when we left off, Mr. Deputy Chairman, we were discussing potential--! should not say the potential--the possibility of other

21 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 16, 19 91 casinos coming up. Just to ensure that the record is fairly clear, the government is not looking at expansion? Mrs. Mltchelson: That is correct. We are not looking at expansion of casinos. Mr. Deputy Chair ma n: The honourable minister-I mean, the honourable memb er for lnkster. Mrs. Mltchelson: Not yet. Mr. Lamoureux: Wishful thinking, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I want to pick up on the health care side of things again.

I had asked the minister, in terms of how mu ch mo ney was allo ca ted to the Health department, not necessarily spent, but how much money was allocated to the Health department from the casino in the last fiscal year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Approximately, $7.5 million. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in order for me to find out where that money went to, I would have to go through the Department of Health? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, you would ask in the Health Estimates how much was spent.

I know some of it has been announced from time to time throughout the year, specific projects that were funded through the Health Services Development Fund. I do not have a definite number. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am int er ested in terms of the summ ary of Lotteries-funded programs. The funds that go into that particular page, which was page 5 on the Estimates, that includes the revenue from the casino? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, the casino is included in that. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the lottery funds or the casino funds are all directed to the health care. Correct? Mrs.

Mltchelson: The total from last year's casino revenues was allocated to the Health Services Development Fund. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the policy of the government- any revenues received from the casino are to be directed to our health care, correct? *

(1620) Mrs. Mltchelson: We anticipated that there would be up to $10 million. Of course, we did not achieve that in the first year, because of the strike, but we indicated up to $10 million would be allocated to the Health Services Development Fund. Mr. Lamoureux: Whatever money is generated from the casino goes towards the health care system? Mrs. Mltchelson: Up to $10 million. Mr. Lamoureux: So if the casino ma kes $10,500,000 the first 10 goes to health care and the balance goes to whatever else the government decides? Mrs. Mltchelson: The balance would go into the lottery trust fund. Mr.

Lamoureux: Is the government anticipating on receiving $10 million from the casino this year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, expectations are that if we go through a full year without a strike or any interruption in service that we should be able to generate the $10 million. Mr. Lamoureux: Then, why, on the Health line, do we have allocated for the year ending March 31, '92, only $7.5 million? Mrs. Mltchelson: In the line in the budget, it is the expectation of the flow of money, the flow of expenditures. As you know, sometimes programs get approved and there might be a program that will run two or three or four years.

I can recall one commitment from the fund was over a three-year period, so there would be monies flowing in three different years. There would be money in the budget each of those three years for that one project. There is an expectation that not more than that muc h money will flow in this fiscal year, therefore, that is what is allocated in the line. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, is it safe then to say that there is an account, if you will, where funds that come in from the casino are kept and then in any given year no more, or I should say, no less than $10 million would be spent over, let us say-I want to make sure that I explain it very clearly to the minister. We need to take it over, let us say, a five-year period of time. If we see the casino making $55 million over five years, it is then safe to draw the conclusion that $50 million of that would be spent in our health care? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that much could be committed, yes, over five years, but in fact the projects have to come in. You have to recognize that the projects that are funded from Lotteries dollars in the Health care line are from the

May 16 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 21 93 Health Services Development Fund. Those are one-time initiatives. They might last for a period of three years, so you might put funding from Lotteries over a three-year period, but it is not ongoing. It is not to go into the general revenue of the Health department for ongoing operating costs. It is to go for one-time initiatives, and those initiatives have to be applied for from the community. It is just like the Community Places Program.

We might allocate $3 mi llion, but if we only had applications for $2 million, highly unexpected or unanticipated, but if in fact applications only came in for $2 million, then we could not spend the extra million dollars. So what has to happen is the applications have to come in. They have to be processed by the com mittee that was set up to process the applications and, if they are eligible, that much certainly could be allocated. If the applications do not flow and they do not fall within the criteria, then we cannot spend the money.

There is the money allocated, but the applications have to flow fro m the comm unit y. It is a community-driven and a one-ti me initiative, and it is not going to go into the bu ilding of, or the supplementing of, the budget in one of the hospital lines. That is just not what the money is intended for. It is for one-time projects to sort of promote, I suppose, commu nity-based health services as opposed to institutional. The transition sometimes from one form of health care, whether it be institutional to community based involves initially more dollars.

It is those one-time things, where there might be bridge funding or there might be one-time projects that are applied for from the community. Mr. Lamoureux: Does the mi ni ster have a commitment then from her counterpart, the Health minister, that any one-t ime project that money is allocated to will continue to operate? Because if you invest $5 million into a project and there is an operating cost, the casino funds are not to go to the operational funds in future years.

Is there a commitment then, whatever money this is allocated out to, that, in fact, the Minister of Health will continue the operational funds? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mrs. Mltchelson: What we do not want to do is commit to projects that are going to continue to be a drain on the fund. What I have

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-45
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Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 45.pdf
Language	en
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