Manitoba Hansard — 17 June 1971 (Sitting 80, 29th Legislature, 3rd Session)

29-3-80

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, June 17, 1971 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Point Douglas. Resolution 94. 1931 MR. MALINOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, to continue with film censorship. Those raising the question of freedom in opposition to film censorship are primarily talking about the freedom of the people in the film industry. They are in effect saying the film industry should be free from any laws or codes of standards - free to inflict upon the public every form of depravity · that can be portrayed in films - all in the interest of profit.

I must point out to honourable members that this runs against the current trend in other fields. Governments have in recent times enacted all kinds of legislation to protect the con sumers. We in this province have established a Department of Consumer Affairs. Every industry has to conform to certain standards. We have government meat inspectors to see that the public gets a wholesome product. The building industry must conform to certain building standards. Restaurants are inspected to see that they observe certain standards of cleanliness.

It seems completely illogical to suggest the film industry should be exempt from all forms of public supervision. There are some who believe that no one should try to set the moral standards for others to follow - that the question of morality is something for the individual to decide. (Especially for the Member for Crescentwood.) What may be immoral to me may not seem immoral to an habitual criminal or a man of the underworld. In this line of argument the fact is overlooked that we are living in an organized society based on law.

Not only do we teach certain moral standards of behaviour in our schools, churches or synagogues, but all our criminal laws represent moral considerations. And all our efforts to en�orce the laws of our country are attempts to enforce certain moral standards and values acceptable to the majority. Mr. Chair man, I believe the producers of the kind of films I have been talking about, and the people favouring such films, represent fortunately a minority in our community. · I am not saying that people shouldn't have the right to determine their own moral stand ards.

As a priest I would naturally like to have people maintain the highest moral standards; but I recognize their right in their private lives to live as they wish. I believe most honourable members here subscribe to the principle that the state has no business in the nation's bedrooms. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is their own business, but what people do on a public stage or on the screen of a ptiblic theatre is something we, as responsible public representatives, must be concerned about. If a man goes about naked in his own bedroom that is his business.

If he goes naked on Portage Avenue he is arrested for indecent exposure. People with perverted tastes can arrange to watch pornographic films to their heart's content in the privacy of their homes or in private clubs, but there are, in my opinion, no good reasons why such films should be shown in our ptiblic theatres. An

article in the Winnipeg Tribune says some of the films being shown in public theatres would make the "stag" movies of another era look like kiddie matinees. We, as ptiblic representatives, would be remiss in our duties if we didn't do everything in our power to maintain some standards of decency in our ptiblic theatres. If many of the films we get now are obscene, there are indications of worse to come. In that same

article in the Winnipeg Tribune I referred to, the story is related about the fight waged by the District Attorney of San Francisco against the purveyors of smut in the movies. San Francisco is noted as one of the most permissive cities on this continent where almost anything goes. But there are limits as to what even the most permissive societies can tolerate. In recent months the outpouring of filth by the film-makers has reached such depths of depravity the District Attorney, John J. Ferdon, was moved to act and numerous court cases ensued.

The majority of decent folk in San Francisco are not proud of the fact that their city is being referred to as the "Smut Capital." They are determined to restore some sense of decency again. Some honourable members may have seen the item in Time magazine of April 5th, 1971, which outlines quite explicitly the kind of films being produced by the people the District Attorney of San Francisco refers to as "these depraved film-makers.'' Mr. Chairman, I will not repeat in this House the description of these films for which a number of film theatre owners were convicted.

It is enough to say they depicted every form of bestiality the depraved minds of men in this business could think of. We in Manitoba should be under no illusion that such films would not in due course be shown in Winnipeg or in Manitoba if all public supervision over films were removed by eliminating censorship.

1932 June 17, 1971 (MR. MALlNOWSKI cont'd.) I realize, Mr. Chairman, there are many opinions and no easy answers to this problem. Conceivably a censor board made up of rather narrow-minded people could af times prevent a film of great artistic merit from being shown. But I believe there is far greater danger to the community to ailow the film industry a completely free hand to flood the community with the most execrable films. The rights of the film industry are safeguarded from wrong and arbi trary decisions by any censor board through the appeal provisions in effect in every province. Mr.

Chairman, our children are growing up in a rapidly changing and disturbed world. They face a very critical and uncertain future at best. Let us at least try and preserve some vestige of decency in our communities -- let us preserve some moral values by which their lives and characters are shaped.· On a provincial level there is not too much of a positive nature that we can do to get more interesting and wholesome film entertainment to our communities. But we should not fail.to do what little we can. 1 cannot agree that the efforts of the censor board should be limited to merely classifying films.

This is not enough. Even censorship is not enough, but it surely is the least we can do on a provincial basis. And I believe a good case could be made for more effective censorship to at least weed out some of the worst type of films coming into the Province of Manitoba. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKELLAR: Mr.

Chairman, I want to say a very few words on this salary of the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, and I think I'll confine myself to the constituency which I serve in the Legislature here because this area -- we have one of the finest tourist areas in all of Manitoba and we're always hoping that more people will come and visit in that area. And I think I'll start off with Pelican Lake and state a few of the problems that have been involved there lately.

About two weeks ago, through some order from somewhere in Winnipeg in the Department, an order was sent out to stop all camping at Pelican Lake, and this man, the caretaker there, covered the camping sign over with a piece of plywood and ordered everybody who were camping there that night to take off. Well, this caused great confusion to the point where Monday morn ing I phoned Winnipeg, and I don't know whether it was through your office or somebody in the Department, anyway this piece of plywood was removed.

Now, one of the other problems there, and I wish that some action wo uld be taken, is the old Highway 23 right along the lakeshore and the original intent of this was to seed it down to grass. Now you can -- (Interjection) - Well, you can put some black dirt on it. No, the highway has changed location, it's on the north side of town. But the trouble is, and I was down there Sunday, the holes are about that deep now on that road and somebody's going to get hurt. Somebody's going to break the ... out of the bottom of their car and I don't know who's going to be responsible.

I don't know who owns title to that road. - These are some of the things I wish the Minister would -- all he would need to do is to have somebody go in there and scarify it and at least level it up so the people could get in. Last Sunday I counted 40 boats, 40 motor boats at the lakeshore there on the north side right near toWn., and I don't know how many sailboats were out on the lake too. So there's con siderable interest. There must have been a thousand people around there last Sunday at Pelican Lake - right close to Ninette. This is one of the more important lakes that we have in our part of the province.

Now, I'd like to say a word about the International Peace Garden, and the Member for La Verendrye mentioned that this afternoon. And I happen to be on the Board of Directors of the International Peace Garden and I would hope the Minister would inform me or inform the Superintendent how much the grant is for this coming year. We at the Peace Garden have had a great amount of activity in the last year.

We had 400, OOO people come into the Peace Garden last year and also there we opened up the Eastern Star Chapel, a $100, OOO building, and now in the plans for the coming year, the year of '72, the Canadian Legion are going to build a quarter million dollar building, and we are looking forward to this building which will be used for track and field at the International Peace Garden. Also in the olans for the future is a peace tower which will, we hope, be contributed equally by the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States. This will be a million dollar peace tower.

Now we hope that many members of the government would come and visit us at the International Peace Garden this summer when we finish the session, and look this place over, because I think that in the International Peace Garden we have one of the finest tourist attractions in all of Manitoba, and

June 17, 1971 1933 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd.) . I think by seeing this beautiful place that you'll appreci- ate it once you see it. So I would extend an invitation to them individually. Now we have another problem in the Turtle Mountains and it's one that's been bothering the people of Boissevain and Morton municipality for some time, and your Department, Tourism, has given approval to start bulldozing down the bush in the Turtle Mountains. Now the people object for very good reason, the people in that area, because what is going to hap pen when they bulldoze the trees down?

It causes the water to run off the mountains and come on to the farm lands below a lot faster than it should, causing excessive run-off damage, soil damage, and the farmers in that area cannot see why' this action is being taken. We're hoping the Minister or a member of his department would have gone out and met these people at least a year ago, or immediately after this work was started, but up to now I don't think there's been anybody ever go out and talk to the people. So, Mr.

Minister, I extend an invitation to you to go out to Boissevain whenever you can see fit after the session is over, to explain your position in the Turtle·Mountains. We're looking forward also to the development of Lake Adam, and I think in this develop ment it will help contribute to the cause of the tourists in that area. It's located two miles north of the international border, and I think that in conjunction with the International Peace Garden this will be a great help to the tourists who are going north on No. 10 Highway. Also I'd like to say a word or two on Spruce Woods.

I, like the Member for Rock Lake and the Member for Gladstone, am interested in this park, because we all have a part of this park and this park - most of us attended the official opening last year - this park, I think, is going to become a tremendous development in that area, a tourist development that will .look after the needs of the Manitoba people and also many of the tourists that come from all parts · of Canada and the United States; and the development, I hope, will continue because I think a winter resort, a winter resort is the answer and I know it's in the final plans whenever that niay be - a ski resort, - so I'm hoping that maybe you can tell us, Mr.

Minister, what the plans are for Spruce Woods for the coming year. Now it was mentioned that we have three and a half million tourists came into Manitoba last year and I do hope there's more this year, because I think this is one of the greater assets that we have going for us. We're situated in the centre of the North American continent; we're situated in the centre of Canada; and I think that through your promotion through the Tourist Branch, I think we can attract many, many people here.

But, as mentioned by the Member for La Verendrye, it isn't a case of getting them here, it's a case of keeping them here once we get them, and to many that come up to Pelican Lake, Ryan Lake, many of them come up for a day or two, they bring their food and their gasoline and leave there very little money. So I think it's important that we try to keep them here as long as we possibly can. One of the greatest things happening in our area, and I mentioned it to the Department of Mines and Resources this year, is fishing, and I saw an American there last Sunday, was talking to him, from Rock Lake, North Dakota.

That afternoon he and his wife were out on the lake and they caught within a period of less than an hour seven lovely fish, and I think American people are just -- they're great fishermen and I think they appreciate fish and they'll go to any expense, and I hope that the advertisement in your department can inform these people, the tourists from outside the province, of the fishing that we have this year; it's the best fishing that we've had I guess for the last seven or eight years and everyone is really appreciative of this. Mr.

Chairman, I don't think there's much else I'd like to say other than to again invite all the members on all sides of the House to come out to one of the finest parks in Manitoba, a part of the country where we all enjoy our recreation, not only in fishing and boating, but we have some of the finest country baseball I think in all of Manitoba; and we do have an inter national league operating in our part of the country this year, with Minot into all of North Dakota in our Western Manitoba league, baseball league, involving teams from Dauphin right through to Minot, and this has created a lot of interest, a lot of excitement for the baseball fans in our area.

I hope that this game of baseball will never die because people who follow it have always appreciated this s::iort. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that's all I'd like to say at this time and I'll maybe have something else to say later on in your estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Chairman:, there are just a few matters that I would like to bring up in connection with this department. I was interested in the remarks that the Minister

193 4 June 17, 1971 (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'd) .•... made concerning the response to tourist promotion from the state of Minnesota and I would like to know just what form the promotion takes. Is there television and radio advertising?

And also, having visited just a few weeks ago in Minnesota and having come back through the State of North Dakota on the six-lane divided highway, which is simply beautiful - if anyone has had the opportunity of taking those highways recently I'm certain that they will agree that they are something very desirable - but as we left North Dakota and entered Manitoba on Highway No. 75, I must say that I was quite ashamed of the condition of that road. Now it may be that I should bring this up with the Minister of Trans portation and I will do so, but I would think it would seriously concern your department, Mr.

Minister, because I would think people would be inclined to turn back from any backwoods place that had roads like that by which they would enter the province. I was also interested in the remarks about conventions during the year 1970. I realize there was a concerted effort on the part of many people to persuade their companies and their organizations to hold their conventions in Manitoba during Centennial year, and this falls very nicely in line with the ideas of the people who would like to see Winnipeg and Manitoba find their place in the sun.

There are two principal ways in which this can be done to make Winnipeg a convention city or to make it an important sports' capital. I wonder if the Minister can give us some idea of the number of conventions that will be here in 1971 and, since plans are usually made a couple of years in advance, perhaps also give us a projection as to the conventions that might be held here in 1972. I feel that this is a very important new industry for this province. I would also like to know, Mr.

Chairman, whether anywhere in the sums that are allocated to this department there is any money that finds its way into the training programs for olympic athletes. I realize that there is no place where it is visible what this province can be doing in terms of developing future athletes who would be a credit to this province and in the process perhaps holding important sports' events which would help to give this area the new and sparkling image of an important sports' centre. I have some other questions or remarks to make, Mr.

Chairman, but for the moment I think I would be satisfied with some reply to these matters. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, before the Minister rises to reply I should like to make a few comments on the first item of his estimates.

As the Member for Roblin has pointed out, it is perhaps one of the lelll:ltpolitically controversial department of the govern ment and I want to ·say that we from Morris, who believe we have the biggest and the best tourist attraction in this province, are very grateful for the kind of co-operation that we get from the Minister's department in the promotion of the Stampede, and we hope that that co operation can be continued in making that annual event bigger and better than it is at the present time.

I can't say as much for the kind of cooperation, however, that we're getting from the Minister of Highways, and I presume that the Minister of Tourism and Recreation feels the same way because much of his success as a Minister depends upon how well the roads are maintained and where the roads are built. I'm sure that the Minister of Tourism and Recreation must feel at some time or other that he would like to throttle the Minister of Highways in his utter disregard for the maintenance of the roads that we have in this province today.

But be that as it may, the Minister's responsibility_.QJ:imarily rests in a liaison between private industry, between those who develop tourist attractions, between those who try to lure the tourist into this province and provide him with the kind of atrraction and the kind of service that he would like to have when he comes into this province, and within his own departmentin the promotion of annual tourist events in seeking to improve facilities, and in seeking to improve those areas of responsibility t�at come within the government's jurisdiction, such as roads, etc.

I think that the private sector themselves have perhaps a greater share of the respons ibility in bringing tourists into this country than anyone, and I'm frank to admit that I think that the private sector are failing in that responsibility in that there seems to be no great effort to provide the kind of facilities that the tourists are seeking.

We have in this province some very fine luxury camps, that tourists can fly in and get the kind of service and the kind of thrills that they want in the way of fishing and other attractions, and I think primarily the best asset of our tourist industry is doing a reasonably good job. But there are other areas and other tourists that do not have the money to spend on fly-in camps and luxury lodges, etc., people who come with their families up here in trailers seeking the kind of accommodation that

June 17, 1971 193 5 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd�) .•... I think could be improved in this province considerably. I spent some time as a tourist myself travelling back and forth to 6ttawa by car, and had occasion to see some of the facilities that were available to me. I must confess that, although they weren't primarily located in this province, I must confess that I thought they could be upgraded considerably.

There's nothing more annoying than to walk into a restaurant hoping to get a meal and to see a group of waitresses standing in a corner gossiping and doing nothing in particular, and not caring whether or not they served the customers; and it's even more annoying to have the cigarette ashes off their cigarettes fall in your coffee, and there is all too much of that going on in many of the restaurants in this province.

I don't know whether -- and I don't say that it's the responsibility of government to train waitresses but I do think that many of them could receive considerably more training before they are pressed into service, and in times such as this when we find that there are so many people out of jobs, when we find that so many people are on unemployment, drawing Unemployment Insurance, or on welfare, one would think that here are jobs that are available for a number of people in the tourist industry - because it is a rapidly expanding industry - and with the proper kind of training they could contribute greatly to some of the tourist attractions in this province; and I don't know whether I would suggest that the Minister has that responsibility - I don't believe he has - but I do think that he must be aware of the need for upgrading of many of our facilities in this province, and the service that one gets in a restaurant in some of those attractions, some ·of those places, largely determines whether or not you 're going to get people returning to take advantage of it.

One other area that I think perhaps much more could be done, and it was touched upon earlier by one of the other members, and that is the promotion of winter activities in this province.

I think Manitobans generally have been reluctant to promote winter activities because they have been a little bit self-conscious about the cold weather in this province, and since there is a great exodus of Manitobans to the southern parts of the province during the winter months in order to get away from that kind of weather, one seems to get the impres sion that they don't believe that it's even possible that other people who do not have the ad vantage of that kind of change in climate may want to come here if there were something to come here for.

Notwithstanding anything that the Minister of Highways may have been saying about the snowmobile, and notwithstanding how desperate he seems to be to try and eliminate the snowmobile from the Manitoba scene, I think it is one of the things that has perhaps brought in more tourists in winter months to this province than anything else, and is one of the means whereby we can attract many more tourists into our province during the winter months than ever imagined.

If any member has ever paid a visit to the Wendigo Lodge during the winter months, one gets some idea of the kind of attraction that can be built in this prov ince to bring tourists into this province, and it seems rather strange than an outsider had to come into this province in order to set up such an enterprise. He recognized the potential that was available in winter sports and winter activities and winter tourists, and I do think that perhaps more of those things should be carried on in order to increase the flow of tourists to the Province of Manitoba.

As has been pointed out, it is one of the great money-makers that we have in this province and I think that we should be doing more to encourage them. And when I'm on that subject, might I say that recently there's been brought to my attention that there is a great deal of annoyance on the part of many tourists coming into this province stopping here at the Legislative Buildings, where there is a Tourist Information Bureau, only to find that there is no place within a half a mile of the building that they can park.

They're shooed off the front steps as quickly as they arrive because the Minister, I suppose, has decreed that there must be no stopping in front of the Legislative steps even if it's just to come in and get a road map, and if it's going to be necessary to prohibit people from stopping in front of the Legislative Building with their cars in order to get tourist infor mation, then for heavens' sakes let's move the Tourist Information Bureau out of this building - move it some place where the tourists can park and get the information that they want; where they can be greeted with the kind of hospitality that should greet them instead of somebody outside shoving them away from the building so they can't even get in here and get the infor mation that they want.

May I suggest that if they move the Tourist Information Bureau on the outskirts of the city, in the southern part here where they can get the information they want before they come into the heart of the city, it perhaps will facilitate them in determining where they want to go, if they have the kind of information that is available to them in the

1936 June 17, 1971 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd.) .. .•. Tourist Bureau. Or, better still, what's wrong with giving some assistance to tourist bureaus down the line on highway 75 and other highways coming in. I must say that again I want to thank my honourable friend the Minister of Tourism and Recreation for the assistance that he did give to the people in Morris in setting up a tourist information bureau, and again, although we got good cooperation from the Department of Tourism, the Department of Highways again was one of the stumbling blocks in trying to get any accommodation for a tourist information bureau.

That seems to be a recurring thing with the Minister of Highways and I intend to repeat that again when he comes back into the House. But to conclude, Sir, I would like to read something into the records that came to me in the mail some time ago and I think it's very typical of the attitude that many tourists must feel when they come into this province and get the kind of service that I find all too frequently from private entrepreneurs in this province, and it's entitled "Remember Me".

It goes on to say: "I'm the fellow who goes into a restaurant, sits down and patiently waits while the waitresses finish their visi ting before taking my order. I'm the fellow who goes into a depart ment store and stands quietly while the clerks finish their little chit chat. I'm the fellow who drives into a service and never blows the horn but let's the attendant take his time. You might say I'm the good guy, but do you know who else I am? I'm the fellow who never comes back.

It amuses me to see business spending so much money every year to try and get me back when I was there in the first place, and all they needed to do was to give me some service and extend a little courtesy." I think that should be the theme of the Department of Tourism and Recreation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I have about three or four specific questions I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister.

I am wondering with regard to the permanent trailer camps, and there has been some indication to me that the permanent trailer camps are being phased out in favour of a sort of a transient trailer camp, and Falcon Lake has been drawn to my attention in this respect and there was some concern regarding the Duck Mountain, Childs Lake area. I wonder if the Minister could in detail give us if in fact this is going to happen in 172 or if not.

The second thing I would like to ask of the Minister, if he'd try and comment or explain to me the plans and programs that he has in mind for the further development of the Asessippi Provincial Park. The area is being utilized by a lot of people now, especially people from Saskatchewan with the Shellmouth Dam facilities functioning now, and I get countless numbers of requests for information as to when will the park be open to the public or when can the facilities be used or what plans has the Minister in mind for that development.

And the other one that I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister is the planning and recreational developments of the Duck Mountains, especially the east side. I'm aware of a group of people that maybe have dealt with the Minister already, hopefully to further develop the Singoosh Lake area; the community of Ethelbert has on some occasion or other drawn it to me. No doubt the Minister has had this drawn to his attention. I wonder if he has any plans for the possibility of further utilization of the Singoosh Lake area in the Duck Mountains in conjunction with that community. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I have two or three questions that the Minister might take under advise ment when he's replying. For several years the Department has assisted the festivals in northern Manitoba, the Trout Festival in Flin Flon, and the Festival in The Pas, and the Round-up and Fair in Swan River. They have assisted by way of a grant each year equally divided between the three organizations.

It has been brought to my attention that this has been cancelled this year and I can assure the Minister it did an awful lot by way of publicity - this was the initial idea of the grant - and I wondered if he had some other thoughts. Whilst I'm on my feet, I notice mention was made of the Duck Mountains and I'm sure that Wellman Lake was very much in his mind. As he knows, several years ago the most beautiful spot was hit by a cyclone and wiped out, and I know the Department has made an endeavour to reconstruct it and I would hope that the Minister will be telling us tonight that that is to be continued.

And we have heard something about films tonight, Mr. Minister, and I notice there's an item there for the Censor Board of some $25,000 and I know there's been changes in the Censor Board. I wonder if he could give us the make-up of it and possibly make a comment

June 17, 1971 (MR. BILTON cont'd. ) . . . . • or two on the kind of films that they are handling and possibly rejecting, along the lines that the Reverend Sir mentioned a few moments ago. 1937 I want to congratulate the Department with regard to the libraries set up throughout the province and certainly the regional libraries in the area that I represent. It's been a' wonderful boon and it was a few years before we really got it rolling, but it has been rolling now and it is well received by the locality.

I am happy to report - probably the Minister knows - that the library has gone beyond the size of the building · it had in the beginning and shortly they'll be opening a $65, OOO building to house the library and we 're very happy with the service that we are receiving. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I missed the presen tation of the Minister this afternoon. The circumstances which prevented me from being here were I think of interest to the Minister because they relate to his department's operation.

It was in Brandon today that Canadian Pacific Hotels and a group of local Brandon people who operate under the name of Skyline Associated Buildings Limited announced the immediate start on the construction of a new 100-room hotel, motor hotel, which will add considerably to the convention capability of the southwestern part of Manitoba and I'm sure will be a tourist attraction when thii;i motor inn is completed in April of next year. It will have a year-round solarium roofed swimming pool and many modern features that will make it attractive for tourists and convention activities.

The Member for Morris has mentioned the attraction and the importance of the Morris Stampede in bringing people from south of the border and from other provinces to Manitoba, and I think this is a worthy event. I should also think it should be noted that the Manitoba Provincial Exhibition each year is also one that attracts tourists from all parts of Canada and the United States to our province, and the new facilities which are now under construction there, the Keystone Centre, will greatly improve both the Provincial Exhibition and the Royal Manitoba Winter Fair which is held annually in the winter months.

These.two are going along now and are hoping to greatly expand the presently attractive features and the basic purposes of these exhibitions which have gone on in Manitoba for many, many years. The Minister is also aware, I'm sure, that the City of Brandon has made application to the Federal Government for the site and the holding of the Canada Winter Games in 1979.

We are hoping that the facilities at Brandon are quite adequate for the holding of this event and we are hoping that the Department of Tourism and Recreation and the Minister will lend his sup port to this application - 1979 seems a long time in the future but I'm sure that those years will go by pretty quickly and we would like all the support we can muster from Winnipeg and from the Department to support our application at Ottawa. Mr. Chairman, it's really a subject that is not directly under the control of the Minister that I wish to bring to his attention at this time. We have mentioned it in passing before.

I'm concerned, as are many people in Manitoba, about the policy which the Federal Government is apparently imposing upon the activities and operations and the facilities of Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba. This park, at least a year or two ago, was second only to Banff in the total number of visitors it attracted each year. I'm ·not so sure that that record will be maintained under what appears to be the present intent of the Federal Government. It seems, Mr.

Chairman, that the government is quietly imposing a policy of the wilderness concept to Riding Mountain National Park which has its principal attractions as a place for families, for tourists, and for people, to enjoy the many attractions which this great and beautiful area has to offer. There has been controversy over the past few years about this, and we have been ,told from time to time that hearings were going to be held in Manitoba to determine what would be the best approach to the policy of the Federal Government and how it should be applied in Riding Mountain National Park.

It appears to me that there is an attempt to make retroactive a policy of wilderness for national parks and to return this area to its wilderness concept. I think this would be a mistake, and it seems to be running somewhat counter to the statements of the Advisory Board to the Economic Development Committee the other day when they said that Manitoba's, one of its main assets, one of its most lucrative potential assets for the future, were the great areas of its province which would be attractive to tourists in the future and were relatively untouched.

We have these areas still in great quantity but they are not in themselves productive or

193 8 June 17, 1971 (MR. McGILL cont'd.) ...•. lucrative for the province in terms of revenue unless they are able to be enjoyed by people, and Riding Mountain National Park had the facilities to pro vide for these people without the pollution or with a minimum amount of pollution because of the facilities to handle crowds. Now I think it would be a great mistake at this stage to ignore these facilities and to attempt to return this area to one which would not be able to handle people, and I think that this is quite evidently what the Federal Government is doing at the moment.

There is a notice today in the Winnipeg Free Press that says there will be some hearings in Manitoba shortly for this purpose. I hope the Minister will be represented or perhaps he will be able to be there himself, because I think it's of very vital importance to our province that some reasonable policy be adopted federally even though it's not a policy that you can control, certainly. You are interested because our revenues and our tourists business depends largely on what is done there.

This matter has been introduced in the federal House by the Member for Marquette and also by the Honourable Walter Dinsdale, the Member for Brandon-Souris. One of the particu lar cases in point is that they have notified six of the churches who operate summer camps for children in the park that these leases are to be phased out and that they will in 1975 have to seek alternative kinds of accommodation.

They propose to use the Cadet Camp at Clear Lake to house these various camps on a rotating basis, and this is not very acceptable to the church organizations who have made use of their camps throughout the whole year, and to reduce their activities I think would be quite a restriction. We are aware, too, that the Federal Government is somewhat under pressure because there are more organizations who would like to have camps in the area and it may be true that it would not be wise at this time to extend the number; nevertheless those that are established, it seems to me, should have some idea and some permanence.

I don't think that their activitie s are in any way damaging the attrac tiveness and the natural state of Riding Mountain National Park. Mr. Chairman, these are the points which I have to bring to the attention of the Minister. I know he is aware of the problem at Riding Mountain National Park. I know he's concerned about the businessmen who have been attempting to continue to offer services to tourists and who are now faced with greatly increased assessments. I know he's aware that the roller skating rink which was a great attraction to the children has been phased out.

I know he's aware that the golf club is suffering because of its reduced maintenance programs; that it's being allowed to deteriorate. He may even be aware that the club house has been reduced. It's no longer as attractive as it was for tourists. I have heard of things being boarded up, Mr. Chairman, but I was surprised the other day in the golf club house at Clear Lake to find that the showers were actually boarded up and I think this is a deterrent. This is not the kind of facilities we would like to offer to the people who want to -visit Manitoba and the parks. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas.

MR. McBRYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since the Minister isn't going to have time to reply tonight, I might as well say a few words on this subject. First of all I'd like to congratulate the Minister on the excellent job that he is doing as Minister of Tourism and Recreation and also say that I was pleased to see that he had a meet ing in northern Manitoba recently and discussed the tourist possibilities in northern Manitoba. I would also like to mention to the Minister that I have had a very good response from mem bers of his Department with whom I've dealt since I've been elected to this House.

The Pas constituency, as most of you know, has a number of special carnivals and festivals, the best known of which is probably The Pas Trappers Festival which every winter in February we have at The Pas; it's very well known and very well attended and I know the me�bers of this House even had occasion to come to it on one occasion. They are probably not that aware that the community of Moose Lake attempts to copy this and has a Moose Lake Trappers Festival a couple of weeks after that which I have had opportunity to attend.

The community of Grand Rapids also has a winter celebration which shows that us northerners aren't bothered by the cold weather and still go on and celebrate - or don't have enough sense to come in out of the cold or something. The community of Grand Rapids has a winter carnival there which I had the opportunity to be a judge of the queen candidates there last year. During the summer in The Pas we have a horse show which will be coming off pretty soon, and every summer there is the Apasqua Indian Days in The Pas.

June 17, 1971 1939 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd. ) The Pas constituency is an excellent tourist area and probably better than those areas of the members who have spoken already this evening. The Clearwater Lake which is just out of The Pas constituency but really services the people of The Pas is one of the clearest lakes that I've ever seen in this province or other provinces and has some very excellent fishing; and also there are very good picnic sites and camp sites on the Clearivater Lake area.

Members will recall this lake because they landed near it on their visit to The Pas recently; the water is quite shallow in a number of places. The other lake near The Pas which is a · very popular spot is Rocky Lake which is scenic enough to have been on the front page of the Manitoba Telephone Rural Book a few years ago. There is also excellent pickerel and jack fishing in Rocky Lake. Moose lake is another nice area although it is very difficult for tourists to get there because there's no road.

The Grand Rapids and Easterville area are areas that will become increasingly well known in the tourist business and becoming increasingly popular as No. 6 road gets improved into the Grand Rapids-Easterville area. The large lake closest to Grand Rapids, the Cross Lake, I believe has more trophy northern pike than any other lake in Manitoba. It's adjoining lake, Cedar Lake, is also an excellent fishing lake - only for sports fishing right now, of course. Grand Rapids is also a very historic area. It will probably be developed in this regard some time.

As you come further south from The Pas constituency there is the Fairford, Lake St. Martin and Dauphin River area which are all good fishing spots and all nice camping areas. Another good fishing spot is the Waterhen River near . . . and now with the improved teleohone service it's not too hard for the tourists to make their reservations at the -- thanks to the Minister -- it's not too hard for tourists to get a hold of the operators there. One of the most interesting things in this area from an MLA point of view, Mr.

Chair man, is the situation that's developing right now with a number of Indian and Metis people becoming involved in the tourist business. At Grand Rapids there's a new development; the Grand Rapids Band is about to begin to build tourist cabins in their area. At: the Fairford River on the Fairford Reserve there is a new park development with money from Indian Affairs Branch and technical advice from the provincial department. At Dauphin River there's two new tourist developments both run by treaty Indians.

These were also assisted by the pro vincial department to get established, and I'm glad to see that the Department of Tourism, .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pursuant to Rule 19 (2), Committee rise, Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR, J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Flin Flon, the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. PUBI.JC BILLS MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on second reading Public Bills.· The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Brandon West. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this bill on behalf of the Honourable Member for Brandon East. I would ask the indulgence of this House to have this matter stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR, WILI.JAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. (Stand) MR.

SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. WILI.JAM URUSKI (St. George): Mr. Speaker, may I have this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER: Second reading public bills, The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas. The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE presented Bill No. 46,

an Act to amend The Jury Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion.

1940 June 17, 197 1 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 46, is a small amendment to The Jury Act. When I first became aware of the situation which somehow systematically excluded treaty Indians from jury duty iii the Province of Manitoba, I asked Legislative Counsel to draw up a bill to rectify the situation.

In the meantime, the Law Reform Commission brought in a recommendation to the Attorney-General that this change in the Act be made, and since I had already asked for a bill to be drawn up the Attorney-General allowed me to go ahead with this as a private member's bill that has the support of the government. Basically Mr. Speaker, as I said, the reason for bringing in the bill was to overcome the exclusion of treaty Indians from jury duty. However, there are a couple of other minor changes in the bill. One change brings the age in line with the Age of Majority Act and the age for jury duty therefore from 21 to 18.

The other change in the bill is to remove millers from the list of persons who are exempt from duty service. The main

section is dealing with treaty Indians. Mr. Speaker, this change in The Jury Act you know. doesn't dramatically affect the quality of life iii Manitoba or isn't an overwhelming change or reform but it is a minor one that I think is necessary to bririg the treaty Indian people into full participation in our society and to overcome this piece of discrimination that previously exists. Mr. Speaker, the Law Reform Co=ission had this to say about this

section of The Jury Act: "The sad truth about the extension of civil rights and the admiriistration of justice in Manitoba is that registered Indians almost by oversight but quite effectively are excluded from jury service. This situation comes about because of an obvious deficiency in The Jury Act.

Section 7 of that Act provides that the mayor or reeve and the clerk of each municipality are ex officio the first selectors of jurors for the municipality. The Act nowhere mentions the chief of an Indian band nor the electoral officer of a reserve. Because of this deficiency in The Jury Act registered Indians resident on reserves are never su=oned for jury duty in Manitoba. The right to vote in provincial elections was extended to registered Indians as long ago as 19 52 but the clear qualification of registered Indians to serve as jurists has never been articulated because of an unavailable selection process.

The same situation seems to apply in other provinces in which local residence, duration of residence, property qualification or iriclusion in municipal electoral rolls are the initial pre-conditions for ultimate selection for jury duty. Mr. Speaker, the main change brought about by this amendment will include in the Act a systematic process whereby Treaty Indians will be included for jury duty. The Law Reform Commission had recommended some changes; on examination Legislative Counsel decided these changes weren't quite the proper ones and therefore recommended others.

One small problem was that the band list on reserve also includes members who are living off reserves, so this legislation we are bringing in says-the band list, for those names on the band list of members on reserve. So, Mr. Speaker, this is the basic intent of the bill and the changes in the Jury Act. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question?The Honourable :Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I just have a few brief remarks to make concerning this bill. I realize that the intent of the bill is to give equality of opportunity to serve on juries to Indians.

Just a word of caution lest one's hopes should be raised too high�

Section 53 4 (1) of the Criminal Code provides that women serve on a basis of equality, but in actual practice the method of selection has tended to prevent women from serving on juries and I suspect that in spite of the provisions of this bill or any other bill that there has to be changes of attitude and changes of legal practice to make the provisions of the bill effective. I understand that there is now in the Senate a Bill S-20 that has had first and second reading I believe as well and which will be dealing with this matter too.

We certainly support the principle of this bill and will be watchirig with great interest to see what the long-term effects of it are. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I just have a question on the bill. I haven't paid that much attention to it but just in the introduction when you indicated that the reeves and so on were ex officio members, then this would now include the Chief of the Indian Band. Am I correct in that?

Does this imply that any time someone from a reserve is before a jury that that jury must include the Chief of the Band if he so desires? MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for The Pas will be closing debate. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I wasn't aware that the Member for Fo rt Rouge was in the Women's Liberation Movement; I'm sure she'll be a welcome asset there. I don't think

June 17, 1971 19 41 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd.) .there'.s anything in-the Act that systematically excludes women but it probably does happen in the process as it does in many other processes in our society. In answer to the question from the Member for Riel. At the present time, the mayor and reeve and clerk are the first selectors of persons in their municipality, then they forward this list in. So they don't make, my understanding is, the fina1 selection of jurors. In this case, the Chief or the Band Manager can make a selection of names to be seµtjn.from which selection will be made.

Therefore the Chief won't even pick someone who is necessarily going to be on that jury or the Chief .himself or the Band �anager won't be on that jury, but the names will be available in the norm.al manner for the possibility of coming up for jury serVice. There won't automatically be a Treaty·Indian on a jury, but their names will be in the process so that they could end up serving on jury duty. Does that answer the question or is that clear? MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre.

The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE presented Bill No. 39,

an Act to amend the Winnipeg Charter 1956 for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, there are two items contained in this request for amendment to the City Charter. One pertains to the supplying of water. It is in the opinion of the .solicitor of City of Winnipeg just a tidying up item. I would ask members to refer their questions to the solicitor in Law Amendments.

The second principle involved is the transfer of pensions from the City of Winnipeg should an employee transfer to Metropolitan Corporation or any other structure that's brought into existence relative to the civic employees of the· City of Winnipeg. MR, SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon) presented Bill No. 41,

an Act to amend the Flin Flon Charter for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, MR. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, it's an unusual situation that exists in Flin Flon. Property that the people of Flin Flon had assumed belonged to the city for the last 30 years and which had been �aintained by the city the last 30 years, was suddenly and unexpectedly found to be HBMS property. This came about through the strike, Mr. Speaker.

The picket line was on company property and the company has been moved two or three hundred years off the property, and all this bill does is exonerate this council and former councils of having spent money on property they had thought belonged to the city. If this bill is not passed, any taxpayer, I understand, can have the council removed as a body. I know you wouldn't want this to happen so I recommend that this bill go through. MR, SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote. declared the motion carried • . • . . Continued on next page

19 42 June 17, 1971 MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honoura ble Member for Osborne. The Hon ourable Member for Osborne. MR. IAN TURNBULL (QsbornEl) presented Bill No. 43, The Occupational Therapists Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, this bill is designed to incorporate a group of profes sional people in a professional association. I think that most members here, and members of the public are familiar with occu pational therapists and what they do.

Their purpose of course is to rehabilitate the injured and to bring the injured to a recupe rative stage where they will be capable of performing the jobs and the tasks that they had undertaken and done before they were injured. In the last 20 years occupational therapy has in Manitoba become an activity· which has attracted. many individuals who have acquired the necessa ry training to make them adequate to the occupation that they are engaged in. The bill really, Mr. Speaker, is designed essen-' tially to do two things.

The first of these is to allow the assoc iation, or the proposed associa tion to regulate its members in their professional activity. At the pres ent time in Manitoba, anyone can come into the province and call himself an occupational therapist, and as a person calling himself an occupational therapist he can hold himself out as such and in effect practice. There is no legal obligation for such a person to register in this province, need not register with the Canadian Associa tion of Occupational Therapists nor need he register with the Manitoba Society of OccuJB,tional Therapists .

In this province pres ently such a person does not have to show that he is in any way trained or adequate to the activities of an occupational therapist. That kind of situation, Mr. Speaker, is one that I think is not in the public interest . The nec essity for people entering this province or engaging in occupational therapy to register and become licensed to practice under the regulations as laid down by a prof essional association is necessa ry and I thiil.k that the passage of the bill will help to achieve that kind of neces sary regulation of this particular professional group.

The other essential provision of the bill, Mr. Speaker, is to set forth an adequate train ing program for those who do wish to become engaged in occupational therapy. In Canada at the present time the occ upational therapist graduates after a minimum of three years of professional university training. El even years ago in this province the School of Medicine Re habilitation was established in the Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba, for the purpos e of training individuals who we re to be engaged in occupational therapy. The necessity of such training,! think, is self-evident; I need hardly go into it.

The basic qualification as I've said is three full academic years and pres ently requires an additional six months of internship. The three years academic training and the six internship lead to a diploma in occupational therapy. And at present there is a fourth optional year which leads to the Baccalaur eate. I think that there is some desire on the part of the Canadian Associa tion of Occ upational Therap ists to make the bachelor's degree the basic qualification for entranc e into occupational therapy. -- (Interjection) -- Well, the question is then asked why would a bachel or's degree be nec essary ?

I might just reverse the question somewhat and ask my honourable friend if he would like to be treated say on the operating table by someone who had two years of training with a knife and scissors ; and if he knows anything of the history of medicine he'll know that some 700 years ago barbers were qualified as surg eons and I would not feel very confident of such a person.

I'm sure he wouldn't feel confident of such a person operating on him and I think that additional training,say in the university, wo uld be advantageous to anyone who was to benefit from the work of an occupational therpaist and would certainly be beneficial for the public generally. In any case, Mr. Speaker, -- (Interj ection) -- well, the honourable member speaks of experience as well. Perhaps he would like to speak following me and if he has series of questions I'll endeavour to answer them. I suppose ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, pleas e. The Honourable Member for Osborne. MR. TURNBULL: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. In any case, as I was saying, Mr . Speaker, the medical professions generally confer professional status on those individuals who have completed this kind of academic training and internship. I could go on, Mr. Speaker, to discuss the bill but I think that these two essential points, that of insuring that adequate academic training and internship are prerequisites to entranc e into occup ational therapy, and the second point of insuring that occupational therapists that are

June 17; .1971 1943 (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) . practicing are regulat ed by their peers in the profession, are really the two ess ential points and with that I think I will finish. · - I MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Fdrt �up, . f MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member r Brandon West that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. ME. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg C�ntre. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. · ! readin� .R.

BOYCE presented Bill No. 44, The Communal Colony Property Act, for s.ecl1ond _ MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipig Centre� . MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, this bill contains a very se rious question and it aria out of an admonition by Chief Justice Hall that perhaps after a number of years certain aspe�ts of holding property in the right of commlines should be looked into.

I have been working on this particular bill or the aspects contained in this particular bill with the people involved in - . specific instance where the bill might have some application and it is a very serious matfer to both sides in the question.

The bill has been in the hands of the members for some three- four weeks I believe, BO that in introducing it to the House I would ask that members contribu�e their thinking on it; that my being inv.olved in pres enting it is, as I say, but acting as an linstru ment so that the admonition of one of the Chief Justices of the Supreme Court of Canadal could find through me an avenue by which this problem could be explored.

As you will se e contained in the bill the principle is that people who have lived com;mun ally for a number of years and have contributed something to the net worth of that partic�lar community or commune should by virtue of their contribution have some rights in a tranJition- 1 al allowance should they choose to leave, should they choos e to diss ent from the group, and I place this bill before the members of the House for consideration. I MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for.Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I understand the Member for Winnipeg Centre in his Jut line of the study he's given this matter and I think a good deal of credit is due to him for the effort he has put into it and I congratulate him for following through with his good intent!, ns and bringing the bill into the Hous e to have it air ed. I I think that the only way that we can properly judge it is to get it to the committee f here repres entation can be ·made from the two sides of a very complex problem.

I, too, havel �ead through some of the material respecting this and the judgment made by the Supreme Co llft of Canada in a particular cas e and I feel that it would be of great advantage to myself, and I think I have the concurrence of my colleagues, in saying that the proper thing to do at this timk is to have the bill go to committee so that the appropriate repres entation can be made. In jdoing so, I don't think I can speak on behalf of all of the members of this side in approving the bill in principle.

The reason for supporting it is that we all realize that this is a matter of don siderable importance to a segment of our community and the best way to get to the heart pf it is to have them make repres entation themselves. So on that basis will support the bill at second reading to go to committee. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR, JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to mov�, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that debate be adjourned. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Second reading private bills. Proposed motion of the Honourable Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek, The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Order, pleas e. j1 hope the honourable member won't mind the intrusion. I just received a memo. There are 45 students in the gallery I'd like to direct the attention of the honourable members to. ThJse students are Grade 7 and 8 standing under the direction of Mr. Johnson and Mrs . Reigmbuth and Mr. C. Lazaruk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Memtl er for Birtle-Russ ell. On behalf of all members I welcome you here today.

19 44 June 17, 1971 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) •.... The Honourabl e Member for Sturgeon Cree k. PRIVATE BILLS MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Stur geon Cr eek) pres ented Bill No. 35

An Act to amend

An Act respec ting "The Midland Railway Company of Manitoba" for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Cree k. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the Midland Railway Company of Manitoba used to be owned by the Great Northern Railway and the Northern Pacific Railway Companies equally; they both had equal shares in the company. These two companies last year merged with a third railway company and the new company is called the Burlington Northern Syndicate.

The interests cif all railways now being identical, it is deemed expedient that the Manitoba subsid iary should now have its name changed to reflect its true relationship. In other words, Mr. Speaker, the Midland Railway Company is owned by a company in United States or owned by a company called the Burlington Northern and they want to have the Act changed to have their company id entified by ownership. MR. SPEAKER put the ques tion and after a voic e vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Radisson. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE : Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the indulgence of the House to have this mat ter stand, I'm not quite prepared yet. (Agree

d) MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairi e. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask leave of the House if perhaps the res olutions in the names of :Members Patrick and Johnston could remain in their position if this would be agreeable. (Agreed) MR. SPEAK ER: Propose d motion of the Honourable Member for La Ver endrye. No. 21. The Honourable Member for La Ver endrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this one I'll have to leave up to the fate of the rules of the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and the amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Brandon West. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russ ell. Order, pleas e. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Just before the resolu tion is called, I cou ldn' t quite understand the re mark that was made with respect to Resolution 21. You' re just not going to introduce it now? MR. SPEAKER: We are now on Res olution No. 1, and I called for the Honourable Mem ber for Birtl e-Russell. MR. BILTON : I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the honourable member if this may be allowed to stand? · MR. SPEAKER: I'm afraid our rules don' t allow for matters to stand any more. It' ll have to take its course with the rest of the others. Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. The Honourable Mem ber for Winnipeg Centre. The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. The Honourable Member for Logan - and the amendment thereto. That' s right. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker, throughout the history of man there has been many attempts at se tting out principles to protect the rights of man.

However, unfortunately, none of these enactments have truly succee ded. It is all very well to try and se t out the rights of man but to try to enforce these principles is indeed a difficult task. If we might just look back a bit in history and we'll se e what kind of attempt that man has made in the past to try and achieve some of the desires that have been expressed by the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia.

If we go back to the Magna Carta which was issued by King John at Runnymede in England in the month of June 12 15 under compulsion from the barons of that time and from this time on, from the time of its issue, Mr. Speaker, it became a symbol of the rights of man to the barons and to the people alike in the country of England; and its clauses were regarded with veneration long after they were out of date and man read into them meanings which would have really surprised some of the original drafters .

Jilne 11. rnn /1945 (MR. JENKINS cont'd) . . . • • Seventeenth century lawyers ignorant of the law of tJ early thirteenth century, knowing nothing of the conditions of that time, saw in the Charter a !solemn grant to the people of England of the rights that they were being denied by that time by the Stewart Kings of England. They saw in this Magna Carta the right to trial by jury, the/ principles of Habeas Corpus, the right of parliament to control taxation, and all these, Mr. Speaker, were thought to have been secured by the Magna Carta.

Some very harsh cr�tics have suggested that the Charter was drawn up only in the interests of th.e barons and ot,er clauses were added merely to attract support of the clergy and .the yeomanry of Englli.n1 of that day. There is, Mr. Speaker, an element of truth in this. The barons, quite naturilly were more interested in their own position as opposed to securing rights for the churcli and I the yeomanry of that day. So, Mr. Speaker, while.we cannot simply dismiss the Magna Carta as a failure, it certainly was not the Bill of Rights that man has been looking for.

J Now I think another next piece of important legislation that was introduced was t e Bill of Rights that was also enacted in England in December 1689; and surely by now, Mr. si>eaker, we would have thought that man wonld have been making some progress in the search f6r a Bill of Rights that would guarantee to people their privileges in civil liberties. Howev�r, alas the Bill of Rights that was introduced had no new principles, no new principles were intro duced into the . English constitution; they were merely a declaration of the law of the laid as it stood at that time. Oh well, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the next time around man would bet bit luckier. - Now let us take a look at another important piece of legislation dealing with hum rights and go across the channel to France. The next declaration was called the Declaratioru1 of the Rights of Man and the Citizen. It was a sort of manifesto issued in 1789 by the Constitf ent Assembly of the French Revolution, to be inscribed at the head of the constitution when it should be completed, and it stated the fundamental principles which inspired the revol�1 tion of that day.

The declarations of the rights of man, De L'homme et ce . . . . was b sed on theAmerican declaration of the year 1776 and laid down the natural and imprescriptib e rights of every citizen to liberty, equality, property and security. Adding that it was a duty p f every citizen to defend these rights not for himself only but also for others, sharing in the gqvern ment,inthe armed protection of the community and in the payment of taxes required by ft· And while this .declaration, Mr.

Speaker, was a document that of prophetic importance expressing the unconquerable hope of humanity and the declaration was first drafted by the Marq�s de . . . . , who later became the Mayor of Paris, who had returned from America full f mthusiasm for the principles that had be.en proc. !aimed in the American Declaration of Indep endence. The final text was voted on by the Assembly and accepted by the king - and I might add, however, unwillingly, on October 5th, 1789, and it was much fuller than the Amefican prototype on which it was based. It contained a

preamble and 17 articles and they proflaimed and defined political equality and liberty in its various manifestations. However, Mr. Speaker, in spite of all these embellishments it was still not the final answer that man had been search ing for. Since, I might add, since the days of the code of . . . . . However, Mr. Speaker, man is an eternal optimist and he was not discouraged. In the year 1948, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted the Universal Declara ion of Human Rights which was prepared by the Commission on Human Rights.

And in the y�ar 1948, the Commission began to draft a convenant of human rights which upon ratificat"on by member nations would bmome leg ally binding upon them. There were wide difference in the economic and social philosophies and they hampered the efforts to achieve an agreem nt on a common text. . But, however, a draft conve:nant on economic, social and cultural ria;tits and a draft.covenant on political and civil rights were completed in the year 1954 and sub itted to the Ninth General Assembly for its consideration. Unfortunate ly, though it passed the General Assembly, Mr.

Speaker, most member nations of the United NaUons have not atified the co:venant. And I believe I'm correct in my surmise and if I'm wrong, I'm sure h nourable members will correct me, but I believe Canada is one of the member nations that has not done so. When the Conservatives were in political power federally under the leadership f John Diefenbaker, the Canadian Bill of Rights was introduced and pa ssed by the Federal P rliament. Unhappily, Mr. Speaker, the terms of this Charter were of such an innocuous nature � s to make them not easily enforcible by law .

And if we may just bring ourselves up to dat , we all saw what happened to human rights and civil liberties in this country when a Liber 1

19 46 June 17, 1971 (MR. JENKINS cont'd) . • • • . Prime Minister and a government aided by the Conservative Party and the author of the Ca nadian Bill of Rights and the Social Creditis te decided to invoke the War Measures Act; and also the alacrity with which the Social Credit government of British Columbia was prepared to deny rights of people in that province of their civil liberties under the War Measures Act.

We also saw a couple of we eks ago when interviewed by the Press, Prime Minister Trudeau said, given the same conditions as what were supposedly in effect in the days of the invocation of the War Measures Act, he would do it again, regardless of the Ca nadian Bill of Rights or one that we might pass in Manitoba. This brings it up-to-date, Mr. Speaker, and now we have the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia - a Liberal, I might add - proposing that we here in Manitoba enact a Manitoba Bill of Rights . I must say, Mr.

Speaker, that the honourable member is to be congratulated and commended for one thing, if it's nothing else it must be for persis tence in man's continual search for some sort of a manifesto or declaration that will embody human rights . However, if we are really to achiev e the true principle of what the member is proposing, we must first find a method of legislating tolerance. Without tolerance, Mr. Speaker, no matter how good our intentions may be, my law may be, intolerant people will find ways to thwart them. We must also be careful that we do not legislate license into a so- called Bill of Rights .

Many people within our society have their own

interpretation as to what constitutes human lights, freedom and the pursuit of happiness ; but these are not always the proper interpreta tions, Many newspapers , for instance, have a mistaken conception of the freedom of expres sion. For example, when they editoriali ze in the news

section instead of pres enting unbiased reports ; this, Mr . Speaker, is lic ense; true freedom of expression of a newspaper should be found only on their editorial pages . The same, Mr. Speaker, holds true for people; some seem to interpret the law to be enforced for others in general and not for themselves in particula r . Especially when you'll se e some people who decide that they will drive at 90 miles an hour in a 30 mile an hour zone. Thirty miles an hour is all right for someone else but to those people they figure that their human rights are to drive at what speed that· they like.

And however we may subscribe to the principle, the basic principle of human right, Mr. Speaker, we find that it would be extremely difficult, if not actuiilly impossible, to foresee such a single piece of legislation that would guarantee to every individual member in our soci ety what he would en visage as his basic human rlgiits.

We have seen the failure of the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Cit iz en, the American Declaration of Independence and their Bill of Rights, the United Nations Universal Declaration of Hu man Rights, and also I might add, the Canadian Bill of Rights. So, while we subscribe to this , all we can really hope for, Mr. Speaker, is that man through time and unders tanding and by inscribing in every piece of legis lation wherever it is possible, guarantees of the basic human rights and freedoms of the indivi dual.

This is the proper way to do it; let' s not fancy it up with a fancy scroll that we se e in the schools today with a Canadian Bill of Rights - it really has no authority in law for enforcement and work to the day that tolerance and human understanding will achieve the ends to which the Member for Assiniboia is stri ving for. So I'm going to support the amendment that has been moved by the Honourable Member for Point Douglas . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the ques tion? The Honourable Member for Rhine- land. MR. FROESE : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a few comments in connection with the amendment that is before us. The former speaker or the former member who just spoke men tioned the War Measures Act. I think if he didn' t know, he should certainly be informed that all party leaders in Ottawa agreed that the measure be brought forward otherwise it wouldn't have been brought forward in the first place. And his leader in Ottawa agreed to it just as well as the others did. I think he better understand and know what the cirums tances were so that he can' t just put the blame on some other people and declare himself free.

I just wonder some times how strong the socialists, and our pres ent NDP Party in Manitoba who claim they're socialists, how strong they do believe in property rights . I certainly question that many a time and when the former member who just spoke ... MR. SPEAKER: Order. MR. FROESE: I think some of the other members shou ld come out and just tell us how much they believe becaus e we know of socialists and other isms in the world today that do not subscribe to this particular right and I feel very strongly about it. -- (Interjection) -- No,

Jiine 17, 1971 1947 (MR, FROESE cont'd) . . . . there is no ism to Social Credit, I can assure the Honourable Memb.er for St. Boniface. We're free enterprisers, we believe in the individual and th . eel indivi dual's rights and the protection of others' rights. Certainly I would suggest, Mr. Spea.kier, since the amendment here in the resolve

part calls for, I think, a statement from the Fi�st Minister because of the conference that has just concluded .in Victoria, because the resol ve part under the amendment says "t hat the resolution be further amended" and then to go 9n, "t hat the government of Manitoba consider the advisability of a thorough review of the adequacy of the protection of human rights in Manitoba, including the possible enactment of furthef , legislation supplementary to such legislation as may be recommended and confirmed at �he . next Federal-Pr ovincial Constitutional Conference in June of 1971. " This conference ha!� just - . .

I -concluded. Are there or will there be any legislation coming forth as a result? The_ First ·•·· Minister is not listening. Maybe he did make statement earlier in the day. I was unavofdably absent but I certainly would like to hear from him whether any legislation will come foaard · as-a result and what we can expect, so that when we pass this resolution at least we will have . some idea as to what we can expect from the government in the way of further legislatio , on this very matter. I Mr.

Speaker, after an explanation at some future time I hope to make some further com ments in conne ction with this. very matter. MR, SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for La - Verendrye. - I . - MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could again ask leave to hold this for the member. I'm sure that he would want to clos e debate on this. The Honourable Memberl for Assiniboia. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The .honourable member is wrong in his assumption because there's an amendment and he has no right to clos e it. l MR.

SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER put the question on the motion as amended and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. - MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge d the amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Osborne. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. . . I . MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will be closing debate on this resolution. _I was interested to read the remarks of the Member from Osborne when he apparently spoke frr the government side on this resolution.

In his remarks he began by completely endorsing t�e present welfare system as conducted under the Social Service Act, and he suggested, a� his remarks wore on he began to express some doubts and at first he said well, there may te a little bit of reform and then he gradually talked himself into something that he called - 1ust short of tota:i reform, almost but not quite total reform which he seemed to feel was out of character for people on this sidei.that a more conservative position was more apt for us to take.

I think perhaps when he read the words "t otal reform" he was a little more alarmed tham he needed to be.

It did not necessarily have to be an extremely disruptive procedure, bit simply going deeply into the questions concerned and to bring forward some new proposfls and some improvements which would take place in an orderly manner and not in any harsh way whatsoever. _ J Now in his apparent _endorsement of the Social Assistance Act as it is, I thiilk he ust have forgotten that that Ac-t had been brought in during the term of office of a radical wh se name was Roblin, and that this Act was copied all across Canada, it was outstanding - (Interjection) -- well, apparently it still !;latisfies some of the people who are so-ca ll , reformers.

The Member called for day care, more day care as perhaps being more iJ portant, and in doiri.g so he certainly echoed my feelings as I had expressed them on previous ocrlasions . He also called for better care for the elderly- as if this was something that we might ha L Je neg ,.. lected to think about; but I would like to point out that our leader has strongly promoted increased pensions and allowances for the aged. ' In my opinion, the Member from Osborne was speaking in a very conservative m er and I really almost have to wonder if he isn't on the wrong side of the House.

I'm sorrJ it seemed to be necessary to amend this resolution. I felt that it was timely and worthwh��e; I hope that under the resolution as it has be.en brought in that a sincere effort will be unr er taken t-o improve and to bring up to date the present social assistance and social develorment pmctice. . I

1948 land. June 17 , 197 1 MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Rhine- MR. FROESE : Mr. Speaker, I would like to sey a few words in connection with the resolut ion. The "re solve" of the amendment says "Therefore

be it resolved that the govern ment continue to work toward change and improvement in the total welfare syste m. " Mr. Speaker, I think we need considerable change in the regulations concerning our welfare system here in the Province of Manitoba. I feel that the way the regulations pres ently work is that if you qualify under the regulations, if you meet the qualifications then you're entitled to welfare; though if you don' t need it you are in the cold, you don' t get anything.

I think there should be some staggering or some different way of qualifying so that we could work toward a system whereby people would receive some supplemental allowance rather than that they would qualify for the total amount of welfare when they meet a certain standard. I feel this is very ess ential if we want to make any improvement in our system. Surely enough many people rather than be on total welfare would like to earn some money and rather receive a supplement. But ap parently this is not possible here in Manitoba and this is where we need a change.

People should be encouraged to work and not if they don't make a certain income that they'd rather go on welfare and be idle. We have too many cases of this type where people are better off going on welfare than if they try and earn a living because they cannot earn as much as they do get on welfare. Or even if the earnings would be slightly above what they are able to obtain on welfare, they feel for the amount of effort they have to put forward and other hardships that may be presenting them selves that they as a resu lt do not go for· this and accept the welfare payments .

I feel that this program should be changed. Sure ly we se e the effort that is being made in British Col umbia today where Mr. Gaglardi who is the chairman of that program, who has done wonders for the Pro vince of British Co lumbia in this respect . Re cently I !)law him on a TV program with some represe ntatives of some other groups and ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleas e. The hour is 10:00 o' clock. I should also like to add one other comment. Someone apparently has a groan or an ache which he should take to a medica l practitioner and take it out of the Chamber.

The hour being 10:00 o' clock, the Hous e is now adjourned until 10:0 0 a. m. tomorrow morning.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-3-80
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 3rd hansardpdf 80.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ab9890d44dff972b56cab9a588a9324985f58cde

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