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April 23, 2024 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Craig Pardy, MHA for Bonavista, substitutes for Chris Tibbs, MHA for Grand Falls-Windsor - Buchans.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo - La Poile, substitutes for Perry Trimper, MHA for Lake Melville.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lisa Dempster, MHA for Cartwright - L'Anse au Clair, substitutes for Scott Reid, MHA for St. Georges - Humber.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Gerry Byrne, MHA for Corner Brook, substitutes for Lucy Stoyles, MHA for Mount Pearl North.

The Committee met at 6 p.m. in the House of Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Gambin-Walsh): Okay, we're right on time, we're ready to go. I'm going to call the meeting to order. I'm going to announce the substitutes first.

For Grand Falls-Windsor - Buchans, we have Bonavista substituting; for Lake Melville, we have Burgeo - La Poile – he will be here shortly; for Mount Pearl North, we have Corner Brook substituting; for St. Georges - Humber, we have Cartwright - L'Anse au Clair, who will be here shortly; and we have St. John's Centre and Topsail - Paradise here.

So an hour and a half in we'll probably take a very short break, we'll see where we're to through the subheads at that point in time.

Just a few reminders, if your tally light doesn't come on after I say your name, just wave, and sometimes if you just wave, they'll see you first. Also, wait at all times for the tally light to come on before you speak. If you could say your name and position each time, it would be great. Sometimes what happens is the minister's tally light and the Opposition Member's will stay on, so that's fine then.

We're asking that you not adjust the chairs and if you have – well, whoops. The water coolers are down there and up here.

I'm going to start out with the Committee Members and the substitutes introducing themselves and then we'll move over to the department, starting with the minister.

We're going to start up here with Minister Byrne.

G. BYRNE: Gerald Francis Byrne from the historic District of Corner Brook.

A. POLITI: Ashley Politi, Opposition Office.

P. DINN: Paul Dinn, the shadow minister for Education and the Member for Topsail - Paradise

J. DINN: Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.

S. FLEMING: Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party Caucus Office.

A. PARSONS: Andrew Parsons, Burgeo - La Poile.

L. DEMPSTER: Lisa Dempster, Cartwright - L'Anse au Clair.

C. PARDY: Craig Pardy, District of Bonavista.

E. ANDERSON: Eileen Anderson, GMO.

CHAIR: Okay. So the Committee Members have a set of minutes there from April 19, I'm just asking if there are any errors or omissions in the minutes, and if I could ask for a mover?

The Member for Bonavista.

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: So we'll now proceed to the Estimates and – no, we won't, we'll introduce this side.

K. HOWELL: Krista Lynn Howell, Minister of Education, Member for St. Barbe - L'Anse aux Meadows.

T. KING: Tracy King, Deputy Minister.

R. HAYES: Robyn Hayes, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services.

T. STAMP: Tracy Stamp, Departmental Controller.

T. NOSEWORTHY: Tanya Noseworthy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Post-Secondary Education.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Lisa Baker-Worthman, Assistant Deputy Minister, Early Learning.

T. HALL: Terry Hall, Assistant Deputy Minister, Education Operations.

S. LINEHAN: Scott Linehan, Assistant Deputy Minister, K to 12.

A. HILL: Angelica Hill, Executive Assistant to the Minister.

A. PICCO: Angela Picco, Director of Communications.

CHAIR: Okay. So we'll now proceed with the Estimates.

I'll ask the Clerk to call in the first subheads.

CLERK (Beazley): For the Department of Education, Executive Services, 1.1.01 to 1.2.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: The Department of Education, 1.1.01 to 1.2.01 inclusive, Executive Services.

So we'll proceed now with the minister, if you'd like a few minutes for an introduction.

K. HOWELL: Sure.

I'd just like to say hello and thank you very much to this wonderful A-team for joining me as my backup here this evening. They are a very hard-working bunch of people who've kept me in line over the last little while. They are a wealth of knowledge. We will endeavour to answer all of your questions. If I can't, I'm sure these fine folks will be able to do that.

A few changes in the department over the last year. We've integrated the school districts, so that's probably the most notable thing that will be evident in the Estimates this evening. A few things here and there that I'm sure we'll have some good conversation about. But other than that, not much to say. Let's just get into it.

CHAIR: Okay.

The Member for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be here and I'll echo the minister's comments, the staff behind you, I've worked with some; I know some from other arrangements. You have one fine soccer manager over there. So you're very lucky to have them behind you. So I'm looking forward to some proper answers, we'll say, tonight. So let's just get started.

I'm recalling the Budget Speech, and the minister knows this is near and dear to my heart so why not start with it, $41 million was allocated for schools in Cartwright, Kenmount Terrace, Portugal Cove-St. Philip's and Pilley's Island. Over the next three years, we're planning to spend $146 million on these projects.

Can I get a breakdown on the allocation of this? How much is going towards each school and for what?

K. HOWELL: Right.

Since the school district has been integrated, a lot of those operational things fall within the TI portfolio now. So I'm sure that we can have that information.

P. DINN: My understanding in another press release – I think it had to do with busing and such – spoke to the fact that TI would take that on, but they would still be advised by Education. So what you're telling me is you have no understanding of what's happening with those three schools this year?

K. HOWELL: We do have communication with the Department of TI, communicate regularly on a lot of our projects, but the operations of it and how it's managed falls within their department. That's their expertise. So the folks that would've normally done that for us are now employees of the Department of TI.

P. DINN: So you wouldn't have any estimates on the finish dates for these schools?

K. HOWELL: As soon as possible.

P. DINN: Okay.

So moving along, there was $50,000 allocated for a new school in Paradise. What is the expected outcome of that $50,000? What are we expecting to get done for $50,000?

K. HOWELL: So it's very early initial stages for that school. As I said, we have some experts in the Department of TI now that can take on some of the roles that need to be done. Simply because there's not a budget item for it doesn't mean that the department can't look it, that TI won't be looking at.

For a breakdown of what we get for $50,000, I'll turn if over here.

T. KING: MHA Dinn, in the $50,000, really, the TI staff can do a lot of school design and planning in-house; those folks exist there. So we'll see preliminary planning and design layout, the size, the footprint of the building, the – I can't come up with the words, but it's the designation of the footprint between the class sizes and the square footage for the purpose that is required for the population of the school. That kind of work is the work that'll happen this year with planning funding.

P. DINN: So to follow on that, I know last year the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure awarded a contract valued at about $950,000 to Allnorth Consultants Limited for engineering and architectural services related to the extension to Dorset Collegiate on Pilley's Island. That's a lot of money to do your engineering architecture. I understand that Transportation and Infrastructure have in-house plans on schools. So when you tell me $50,000 is going to be used for very preliminary, it is very preliminary, correct?

K. HOWELL: Yeah, so the $50,000 that's allocated upfront will get us to a position where we know what we're asking for, to go out and pitch a tender and to get the architects and the plans to come back out of that.

P. DINN: Thank you.

There were a couple of other schools mentioned. Last year, I know the minister and the Member for Harbour Main had taken a tour of Frank Roberts Intermediate – and I stand to be correct on the wording – but was of the understanding that there would be some work done at Frank Roberts. Is there any money allocated in the budget for Frank Roberts?

K. HOWELL: There might not be a specific budget line, but I, too, had the opportunity to visit Frank Roberts and have identified that that's a school that I wish for us to proceed on looking at replacing. So just because there's not a specific budget line doesn't mean that we can't take a look at that.

As we mentioned, there's a lot of expertise in-house now that can look at those preliminary parts of the plan and they'll lead us in the direction that we need to go.

P. DINN: I just want to touch on a point I made earlier. It talked about the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure has taken over some new responsibilities and daily operations of things like student transportation and supporting maintenance services to school. What role does Education play in those, student transportation and maintenance?

K. HOWELL: I'll defer that question to Terry Hall who's the ADM for Education Operations.

T. HALL: Thank you.

Yes, so they did take over the actual provision of the service; however, they still work with Education Operations in terms of the number of students, where they live, in order to be able to acquire the buses and the routing that is required in order to provide the services.

So we are in lockstep in terms of them being able have the information to be able to secure the service that we need for all the students.

P. DINN: So I'll just follow up. Where are they getting that information, Transportation and Infrastructure?

T. HALL: They would get that from Education Operations in terms of our enrolment numbers by school and by geography. So, as they can plot their GIS points to know addresses and residents, they can do the bus routes.

P. DINN: So if I go back to my first question on Cartwright, Kenmount Terrace, Portugal Cove-St. Philip's and Pilley's Island, does the department have an indication what size those schools will be and how many they will accommodate?

T. HALL: Yes, of course, because these schools, where they're going to be built – and specifically Pilley's Island, we knew we were expending a school to be able to bring in the populations from two other schools. So they would go out and understand where any school is being built to determine the footprint that we have and get an idea and, ultimately, the configuration of the school would fall out after they get an idea and we go to tender.

P. DINN: So what is the approximate population for these schools?

T. HALL: Which schools is that?

P. DINN: Cartwright, Kenmount Terrace, Portugal Cove-St. Philip's and Pilley's Island.

K. HOWELL: That's information we can provide for you. Don't have it right now specifically for our Estimates, but we can get that info for you.

P. DINN: Thank you.

One good thing – not just one good thing, but one thing we pushed for was the elimination of the 1.6 busing. It's targeted this year to be eliminated, which is a good thing. Just curious, how many new buses will we need to accommodate this full 1.6 being eliminated?

K. HOWELL: Again, I think that's information that we're going to provide to TI and they will make a determination when they look at the catchment areas and zones. We don't have that information right now. As we prepare to start the new school year, we'll do a more fulsome evaluation of what that looks like with our counterparts in TI.

P. DINN: I actually sit on a school council and that school council is already telling us that out of the five buses they utilized last year, they're going to need eight this year – an additional three. So that school already knows how many buses are needed for that school. So what you're telling me, we don't have a full count of what the other schools are going to need?

K. HOWELL: We do have a count, but again, we don't want to assume that there's going to be no growth, nobody is going to move in, nobody is going to move out. That's a target that we'll have nailed down closer to the time of the school year, but TI would definitely have that information presented to them already as they make their preliminary decisions on what potentially they're looking for in a contract.

P. DINN: So when looking at the busing, one big issue that's come up – and I've talked to a number of schools on this, because it is a safety issue that we're bringing in this 1.6 for, but it also creates some issues when it comes to traffic flows around the schools because you'll have additional large-size vehicles going around there. Has there been work done on all traffic flows for the schools that will be taking on this busing?

K. HOWELL: I will pass that question again to the ADM for Education Operations.

T. HALL: Traffic flow is ongoing all the time. Our staff will always look at the parking lots. If the school raises a concern that's coming up, they'll go out and check traffic flows. It's not a new thing with these buses, but it is something that they are aware of as they roll this out.

P. DINN: I think in the budget it was $30 million over the next five years to revitalize the fleet of school buses. Will consideration be given to electrified buses?

K. HOWELL: That's a very interesting conversation that we've been having. I'd love to see all of our fleets electrified, but that is certainly part of the conversation and I'm sure if my colleagues in the Department of TI see fit and if that's the most reasonable solution, then they'll definitely pursue that avenue.

P. DINN: And just for my own information here as well, when we talk revitalization, it is not necessarily all new buses.

K. HOWELL: No.

P. DINN: I am assuming there will be those that would be, I guess, upgraded or repaired. So do we have any indication or any knowledge of how many new buses we may need or how much of the current fleet we need to upgrade?

K. HOWELL: I don't have that information right here in front of me, and I would assume that my counterpart in TI would have a better understanding of what the school bus fleet is actually looking for in their purchase orders.

P. DINN: Thank you.

I'm just going down here – I'm assuming when the 1.6 is implemented, this year is supposedly the last of it and that would be available in all districts, all schools, so that kids who have the opportunity to do so or want to will be able to get on a bus. Am I correct in saying that?

K. HOWELL: In all schools that have busing services, there will be an elimination of the 1.6.

P. DINN: Okay.

A big issue for K to 12 has been – and we've talked about it – the violence in the schools. Recent information looks at about 25 incidents a day and upwards to 1,000 that have occurred over the first 38 days of the year. What is being done by the department to curb this violence?

K. HOWELL: That is a very, very important issue and it is something that has been one of the leading conversations in the department over the last year since I've been here. We've been working with our counterparts at the NLTA. Because I don't assume to know what the ins and outs and day in the life of a teacher looks like, I rely heavily on the good counsel of our friends at the NLTA when we're looking at solutions for our classrooms.

We were able to join a violence prevention coalition. The NLTA headed that up and invited us to be part of it and we were certainly eager to do so, as well as my counterparts in the Department of Justice, the Department of Health and the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development. Recognizing that the approach that we're going to have to take to violence in our schools is more than a one-pronged approach.

It is going to require a multi-departmental collaboration with our stakeholders and certainly the community has a role to play and the school system itself has a role to play, but it certainly wouldn't be fair to expect that the answer to this problem is solely dependent on our classrooms.

So we're continuing to work on a plan for that, looking at what it is that best suits the needs of our students and our teachers and how we can support them. One of the biggest issues that was identified was the need for additional student assistant supports.

So after the Think Tank, that was something that resonated very clearly with us; we were able to provide supports that day, implement some of the needed supports. Then in the budget we proposed the $3 million to increase about 104 positions for student assistants, which takes some of the pressure off while we're trying to reconfigure what our classroom compositions look like, how we do our allocations and how we can better service the environments that our students are learning in and that our teachers are working in.

P. DINN: So with that, it's interesting you brought up the student assistants. I'm giving you an opportunity to clear yourself on this because I've been hit with questions based on our back and forth in the House recently on this.

Student assistants, as we know, were hired to mainly deal with children with exceptionalities. Somehow what we talked about in the House recently got misinterpreted because I had a call saying it's not just the kids with exceptionalities that are the result of violence in the classroom. So I was happy to hear you say that there's more to it than just 104.

So are there other things we're looking at, that you can name, other than those 104 teacher assistants?

K. HOWELL: Yeah, certainly.

One of the big things that we've committed to is looking at our classroom allocations, looking at our composition, and we've implemented our inclusion model. I think it's high time that we re-evaluated what that looks like and how that sorted itself out in our schools and where there may be room to improve on that. So we've committed to taking a look at that, as well as looking at a needs-based allocation for our classrooms, as opposed to just strictly numbers based and some of the schools that we can provide that.

But it's important to note that a lot of the instances that are referenced as violent instances can be solved by our student assistants. They are a very key player in the solution to that issue. Because teachers are there to teach and we want to allow them to do what it is that they do best. If there is another professional who can provide the services that are required to keep the classrooms safe, then we'll certainly be able to support that as well.

P. DINN: Okay.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The Member for St. John's Centre.

J. DINN: Thank you.

Just to follow up on a few questions that my colleague from Paradise asked before I get into the other ones.

With regard to school designs, we have a number of designs that are already out there, whether you look at Elizabeth Park, Holy Trinity Elementary, the former Holy Cross Junior High and Hazelwood. So you have designs that work. Are we looking at reinventing the wheel for anything or looking at basically we've got a design, let's put that there?

K. HOWELL: I think that's what the initial stages will lead us to. If there is a model that is appropriate and it's the right size for the community that we're looking at, then that's certainly something we'll be able to pursue. But if it doesn't meet the specific needs of a community that's been identified, then we'll have to go above and beyond what we might call the cookie cutter or the already implemented type of plan.

J. DINN: Will child care or daycare centres be attached or incorporated into the schools?

K. HOWELL: They will be, yeah.

J. DINN: Okay.

K. HOWELL: Where it makes sense, we'll be looking at implementing child care centres and pre-K.

J. DINN: Okay.

Will you be also, I guess in the design, making sure that it adheres to class capacity fire codes because more than one site, I can tell you that if they did a survey, I'd say there are a number of classrooms that are in violation of the fire code right now. It's certainly not 20 square feet per individual and certainly no 30 inches between each row for escape, depending.

So I'm assuming that you're going to be looking at the class sizes and just making sure that there's actually physical safety.

K. HOWELL: Certainly.

J. DINN: Would that be correct? A commitment?

K. HOWELL: Yeah, that's definitely part of the initial take on it. We can't really predict where the population of some of these classrooms go and I think that may be some of the issues that you've identified with space, when there's more kids than there is space. So we're trying to look at ways with which we can relieve some of the pressure in those instances as well.

J. DINN: Which is the key to making sure that class sizes don't balloon, especially in primary and elementary.

K. HOWELL: Out of control, yeah.

J. DINN: Any discussion in metro for use of Metrobus, either Metrobus on existing routes, especially for high school students, but also, I know there have been projects with public transportation where sort of the bus, like an Uber, it follows a specific pick-up route. So has there been any discussion of working with or partnering with Metrobus, because I know they would probably only be too happy to solve that problem as well?

K. HOWELL: We've definitely had that information and had that conversation in the past. Right now, it's not really where we're looking. We've been focused on the elimination of the 1.6 and ensuring that everybody has an adequate ride to school, by school bus. But once that plan is fully implemented, of course, we'll take a look at it and evaluate what the merits of it are and where there may be needs for alternative measures.

J. DINN: In regard to the student assistant positions about violence in the classroom, I will say this, this is from principals and my own experience, that student assistants by themselves, you might think that's a large

part in dealing with violence in the classroom, it depends, but I would suggest that's not the answer. That's from school administrators who have responded to the Think Tank proposals and everything else.

By the way, I'm glad you say it's not solely the classroom, but I can tell you that's exactly where it is. That's exactly where it is and where it's going to stay for a while. You might talk about bringing Justice in and bringing the other jurisdictions and families and so on and so forth, but unless you've got the extra social workers to work with families, you don't have that.

I will tell you primarily and mostly in the primary and elementary system where you have that violence, it's great to talk about how this is not solely the responsibility of the teacher, but I did have a Member over here, last year I think it was or the year before, saying that the single greatest factor in student achievement and everything else is the teacher. I would agree with that, but I would say that the single greatest factor of putting out a fire would be the firefighter, but if you're giving the firefighter a garden hose, he or she doesn't have much of a chance.

So I think, here, if you want to look at violence prevention, it also looks at class composition and class size and that, rather than look at it, needs to be addressed sooner than later because it's been a problem for as long as I've been a teacher.

Anyway, I can't stress that enough.

K. HOWELL: I'll take a moment to respond to that and I certainly appreciate that perspective. As I said, I don't pretend to know what the day in and day out is and I'll certainly defer to your experience on those measures, but when we look at the short-term solutions that we could implement right now to make a difference, while we're trying to evaluate the composition and make that change to a different allocation model, that was a stopgap measure that we needed to implement so that our students felt more safe. That was where the student assistants played a key role.

J. DINN: Perfect.

The Budget Speech announces about reliable transportation, the 1.6-kilometre busing rule. It also talks about $3 million to increase student assistant hours and hire more student assistants that will help meet the needs in the classroom and when travelling on school buses. It also refers to $3 million to meet the needs of student population or I think it's also around growth in certain populations. There's $850,000 for recruitment and retention.

I'll try to get through those; I'm not going through it at this point, but let's talk about the student assistant. Did you say that there was 104?

K. HOWELL: One hundred and four full-time equivalents will be created with that.

J. DINN: So I'm trying to think. There are 125 hours that came out of the Think Tank. So these teachers, then, are you still keeping the 125 hours that were announced as part of the Think Tank or are they being subsumed into the 104 that have been announced?

K. HOWELL: The hours that were allocated after the Think Tank, we found that out of savings last year, but we have committed to maintaining that as we move forward in this number.

J. DINN: Okay, we're not looking at 125, we're looking at 100 new positions, more or less, that's it?

K. HOWELL: It is 104.

J. DINN: Okay, 500 hours, I would assume.

K. HOWELL: Sorry, say that again?

J. DINN: I guess, if you're looking at student assistants, roughly five hours a day, 500 extra hours. Let's be clear, the 125 that you announced are continuing on, they're part of the 100?

K. HOWELL: Yes.

J. DINN: Okay.

Where in the budget is that extra $3 million? On page 198, it shows salaries. I'm just trying to get an idea, because you have to allow there have been contracts renegotiated, increases. Is that $3 million there? I think it's on page 198. I am just trying to get an idea where these numbers are. So the salaries are $43 million.

K. HOWELL: It's in

section 4.1.02.

J. DINN: Okay.

Part of that $3 million is in that?

K. HOWELL: Yes.

J. DINN: Okay.

So how many of these 100 positions then will land in school in the fall? In terms of if you're looking at student assistants who are dealing with busing, who may or may not want the extra hours – but I'm trying to get an idea of how many of those 100 are actually going to be towards supervising busing and how many are actually going to be in the classroom and support the actual classroom of those hours.

K. HOWELL: So we don't have a concrete number yet until we get the full numbers for our enrolment in the fall, but we think it's going to be about half and half. Our intention is to eliminate any of the positions that might have been like split shifts. So once a student assistant is signed on for the day, then they don't have to go home and come back and continue their day at a later hour. It's to get some continuity in their schedules, providing them with a full day shift.

J. DINN: So half the number is going into supports in the classroom, 50? So really, all we've increased supports the classroom is by 25, not by 75?

What I'm saying is that when I hear the 100 new positions, it sounds very much like, wow, we've got 100 new positions in the classroom. But what I'm being told is that 50 of those, 50 per cent of them, are actually going to be supervising buses, not in the classroom itself, which you've just said student assistants are key to helping mitigate the violence. So, really, 25 announced for the remainder of this year and we're really talking about 25 new positions in the classroom.

K. HOWELL: So any teacher assistant who gets onto a school bus would then follow the student through to the classroom day anyway. So it's not like they stop their shift on the bus and they only provide service on the school bus, but they would follow the student throughout the day.

J. DINN: Yeah, but basically, they're on the bus. But 50 per cent of the increase is basically to accommodate supervision on the bus?

K. HOWELL: Yes.

J. DINN: My point is if half are doing that, then basically we've only increased the number of student assistants in the schools on the ground to help the teachers help the students by 25. That's what it comes down to. Not a significant amount.

K. HOWELL: Fifty and 50; 50 per cent in –

J. DINN: That's my point, so 100 out of 100.

K. HOWELL: Fifty in the school, 50 – but again, that's to be determined. We don't know what the exact amount will look like, but it's important to recognize that the service is required on the school bus as well because not all violence takes place in the classroom.

J. DINN: We are talking about the classroom, too – classroom violence. So I would hope that that number is determined quickly, sooner than later than in September, let's say.

K. HOWELL: Yeah.

J. DINN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The Member for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

I'll just talk about, because the minister mentioned about getting a handle on – I don't want to use the word “handle,” but getting a handle on enrolment numbers. I know, from past experience – at one time I was with Education – you get projections. We have some very good projections of who's moving to what grade and who's coming in.

I would suspect when we're dealing with this, we would utilize that information and come up with, for lack of a better word, a good guesstimate of what's going to be utilized and where you need them. Am I correct in that?

K. HOWELL: Absolutely, yes.

But if I was to say that and give you those numbers emphatically, then come the fall, you'll be questioning me on why I said that. So that's why I always preface it by saying these are just preliminary numbers and we're not (inaudible) –

P. DINN: No, I understand.

But I guess my point being is we would have a good understanding of what the projections will be.

K. HOWELL: They are very safe estimates, yes.

P. DINN: Has the department completed air quality testing in schools since buying the air purifiers?

K. HOWELL: I'll have to defer that to our ADM of Operations.

T. HALL: No, we haven't gone out and done an across-the-board analysis. I'd have to defer to our colleagues in TI now who's managing the schools to determine what they may do and what they may have in their plan.

P. DINN: Assuming that – oh, sorry. Go ahead.

CHAIR: Minister.

K. HOWELL: But that is information that I would like to have as well, so I'd certainly like to know what schools have been evaluated and where that comes from. We can get that information for you.

P. DINN: So are all schools equipped with air purifiers now? They are.

We all try to recreate the wheel and make a better wheel, but it seems to me, with some of the responses, that we're very much dependent on what TI does, so it gives me a little uneasy feeling that we actually have a grasp on what Education needs.

What mechanism is in place to ensure that you and TI are working together to be as up to date on the information that's needed?

K. HOWELL: There are several employees within the department that have open lines of communication to our ADM, as well as the ADM in TI, and they report regularly. So that information is shared, I would venture to say, on the daily as these things unfold. There is, as I said, very open communication as to what is actually happening on the ground with our Operations team.

P. DINN: Thank you for that.

I've read a statistic there recently that more than half the schools in the province have no cafeteria or they have one, but it is not being utilized as a cafeteria. What has government done in this budget to address this situation?

K. HOWELL: I think one of the most important things that we've announced in recent years is the implementation of our school food program, recognizing that not all of our schools are equipped with cafeteria services. Some of them, as you just said, may have appropriate space but no provider. They might not have a space, or it might be inadequate, or it might be available space but just not fully functional.

So through the implementation and the growth of our school lunch program, we will be taking an inventory of which schools we can utilize better, which ones need new investment to bring them up to a level that is functional, and how we can provide good meals, solid meals, for our students all across the province. That will be starting in the fall. We'll be looking at some of our most vulnerable communities first to determine where the most value may come from in terms of our school lunch program.

P. DINN: And, of course, part of the school and participating in school – I mean yes, you need to have good nutrition and food, but there is also a social aspect of having your lunch hour break. I would present that with kids having to eat in their classrooms and such would probably exasperate the rodent issues that some of our schools are dealing with.

So there's really a need for children in the schools to have a set space that they can go and call a cafeteria and eat there, especially when we're dealing with half the schools without that.

I mean, yes, I agree with the school lunch program and the school programs that are happening, but you really do need that space.

K. HOWELL: When you identify that half of them don't have a cafeteria, I'm not sure if the definition that was proposed when they asked those schools, if it was a designated space or if it was a serviceable space. I'd have to get more information as to which of our schools actually have a designated cafeteria space as you're referencing.

P. DINN: Okay.

Just to talk about curriculum, because there was some talk about the curriculum that would present cultural sensitivity, Indigenous education and LGBTQIA+ curriculum. What are the updates on that?

K. HOWELL: Our curriculum is evaluated regularly on a rotational basis, so we look at certain subjects in a rotation of years.

I'll defer to the deputy to have – or maybe Scott – one of the folks who have the understanding of curriculum can explain where we're to in that cycle.

T. KING: Thanks for the question.

As the minister noted, of course we review all our curriculum on a schedule; however, issues like the Indigenization of education or multiculturalism, as we're redoing and looking at all our curriculum, those issues are considered in all of the reviews ongoing. So it's not just, say, in the new health curriculum that's coming over the next couple of years where those issues would be looked at, but it's in all of our curriculum as we're renewing them. Issues like those are being addressed in the resources that we're using in the curriculum to ensure we're meeting the right bar there.

P. DINN: So how often is curriculum evaluated?

K. HOWELL: I'll ask the ADM of K to12 to speak to that one.

P. DINN: Okay.

S. LINEHAN: All curriculum is on a renewal cycle of 10 years, but we can be very, very responsive as well to updating resources and updating teaching-learning strategies as ongoing PL. The typical renewal cycle is 10 years, but we are aiming to have a more modernized platform whereby we can be more responsive to curriculum in real time.

P. DINN: Currently, what would kickstart an earlier evaluation of curriculum, because you know the world changes quickly out there in some aspects? What would kickstart something that would not wait the 10 years?

K. HOWELL: I think the issues that are identified in social aspects are often issues that are addressed upfront and immediately, also issues where we see that there might not be academic performance. There might be something identified that needs to be addressed right upfront instead of letting it fester for 10 years before we take a look at it.

As the ADM mentioned, we do have a curriculum now that is digitized so it allows us to be more fluid in how we can change some of these things and have a look at what needs to come out, what needs to be implemented and what need to be changed.

P. DINN: Thank you.

Last year in the budget Estimates, it was noted that the disability and support services area of the department is undergoing a review and an overhaul.

With that in mind, what specific changes have been made to support children with exceptionalities in light of the Churchill case?

K. HOWELL: I will defer that to the ADM for K to 12 to give you an update.

CHAIR: Scott Linehan.

S. LINEHAN: So the NLSchools branch have a dedicated director for deaf and hard of hearing. With that director as well, there's a program specialist responsible for deaf and hard of hearing. We've allocated 22 itinerant teachers to the deaf-and-hard-of-hearing schools and we've provided three additional itinerant teachers for deaf and hard of hearing above the allocation this year.

P. DINN: A case was brought forward to me recently and it talked about a child who's in school, is non-verbal and he is losing his teacher assistant who is equipped with American Sign Language.

What measures do you have in place to deal with children who lose that much-needed resource? What do we do when a child loses a teacher or a teacher assistant that is equipped to deal with him such as, someone equipped with American Sign Language?

K. HOWELL: I can't speak to an individual case but I can let you know what the overall plan is when we look at children who have these specific needs. There is an assurance that a student assistant will be provided and that supports will be maintained for that student.

For whatever particular reason, people may not be available or there might have to be a new allocation in a new building or however that looks, depending on some of the seniority list and how that unfolds, but the assurance is that we continue to provide the student assistant and the resources for children who would need those specific resources.

Every endeavour is made to have individuals who are equipped to deal with American Sign Language and can provide that service, but that is often a rare occurrence. So if there's an opportunity for somebody to be trained to undertake that type of learning, then we'll certainly explore those avenues as well.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The Member for St. John's Centre and we're still in the first subhead.

J. DINN: Thank you, Chair.

Would it be possible to get the number of schools that either do not have an HVAC system or do not have a functioning HVAC system throughout the school? I think we have roughly 255 schools.

K. HOWELL: Certainly, we can get that info.

J. DINN: I think Assistant Deputy Minister Linehan referenced the fact that there were three additional deaf-and-hard-of-hearing itinerants over and above the allocation. Did I hear that correctly? Is that part of the $3 million allocated to help meet the needs of the student population?

K. HOWELL: No, that's in addition to.

J. DINN: Pardon me?

K. HOWELL: That's in addition to.

J. DINN: In addition to.

So with regards to that, the $3 million to help meet the needs of the student population, I think if I heard it also talked about to address the growth of certain populations. I'm just wondering what is that money going towards then, specifically, when you talk about the growth of the student population? Just general or is it addressing specific needs?

K. HOWELL: It'll be resources as needed and we continue to evaluate students on a case-by-case basis and look at whatever particular resource a student may require. Our primary allocation was for the student assistants in whatever role it is that they can be of support in our classrooms, but other than that we did monitor our students on a case-by-case basis for whatever need it is that they need a particular resource for.

J. DINN: So this is $3 million for teaching services as opposed to student assistant services. I want to put it in this context –

K. HOWELL: No, I'll correct you there, Sir. The $3 million that's allocated is for student assistants.

J. DINN: In the budget it talks about $3 million to increase student assistant hours and then it says: We are increasing the teaching service's budget by $3 million. That's mentioned twice, so are you saying there's no second $3 million?

K. HOWELL: No, there is an additional $3 million for teaching services.

J. DINN: Teaching, that's what I'm referring to.

K. HOWELL: Sorry, my misunderstanding. Okay.

J. DINN: So in Immigration, Population Growth and Skills, we basically had an acknowledgement of the fact that we have 686 Ukrainian children in this K-to-12 system; 634 are in the metro area. That's the size of a school. That's what the population has increased by. I know that schools – and I've brought it up in the House – have struggled just to provide the extra services there. That's what precipitated the reconfiguration of PWC, Larkhall, St. Andrew's, Leary's Brook and so on and so forth.

So how much of that is going towards, let's say, just addressing it when it comes to LEARN teachers, EAL teachers and so on and so forth?

K. HOWELL: I'll ask the assistant deputy minister for Corporate Services to speak to that.

J. DINN: The extra $3 million, okay.

That's fine, but basically, you're saying – because again, the budget gives the impression – when it comes to addressing the other needs in the classroom, whether it's educational deficits, behavioural, whatever, you name it, there's really nothing new there just for the classroom.

I will support, personally speaking, to make sure that anyone who comes into the school system has the language training, LEARN, to fill in the gaps. But what we've been talking about here, when it comes to the increasing school violence – because some of the schools have classes approaching 30 in a primary and elementary. So there's nothing there in that budget really then to address the needs of what we've been talking about in violence, except the promise that it's going to be looked at.

We have $3 million to address that, but nothing there in the immediate term to actually bring down class size is what it comes down to.

K. HOWELL: As I said, that's certainly not a simple solution. It's going to take a re-evaluation of our allocation models. So when we look a numbers-based allocation, that's fairly simple to chuck out in the beginning of the year. You can determine how many bodies are going to be in the classroom and then assign a teacher.

But when you look at the specific needs that are going to be represented in each classroom, and our endeavour is going to be to base our teacher allocation on needs-based, that's going to take more time than simply just a numbers exercise.

So without throwing out a number and just saying I've thrown numbers at the problem, I think it's more important that we have a valid solution that actually gives us a data-informed decision as to why we would change the allocation, what is needed in a classroom, and validates the allocations that would be needed for each classroom.

So that can't be accomplished overnight, but it is certainly something that we've taken on in the department.

J. DINN: Minister, I respect that, but it's not a simple solution, yet it's not a numbers game. Yet, that's exactly what we're seeing here. There is a need. There is an influx of students that their needs were identified here in terms of we had an influx of 686 students from Ukraine and other countries as well. There was a need and it's a numbers game, and it was responded to by putting an extra $3 million in for EAL services.

So, in some ways, it's as simple as that. Because I'm willing to bet if you look at whether it's 360, the reporting models, examples of violence, you can easily figure out where we need to start splitting classes or reducing the numbers.

I think in terms of needs-based recommendation around teacher allocation, if you've got 50 per cent of the class with special needs or exceptionalities, then split that class, put hard caps in, anything at all. There are ways of doing it.

So I would challenge that in that if you're telling me that it was a lot more complicated than simply numbers, I would suggest that helping any child, especially a child that's coming from another country and who may be traumatized by war, it is not a simple process either.

But, in fact, what you've done is exactly that. You saw a need and you responded with teachers. That's what I'm asking. That's what teachers are asking. That's what the NLTA is asking in terms of addressing the needs of the classroom. Start with that emergency. So if it can be done here in the budget, it can be done for classes that are already struggling. Violence, I would argue, is because there are a lack of supports there – simple.

K. HOWELL: I would agree to an extent, but to say that simply adding a teacher to a classroom is going to solve our violence situation, I would adamantly oppose that stance because I do believe that these are very complex social issues and our classrooms are microcosms of our society. I'm sure you're well aware of a lot of the issues that are facing residents of Newfoundland and Labrador right now. They do ultimately show up at the doorstep of our classrooms.

So we have to be more collaborative in our approach to how we deal with that, rather than simply saying we're going to put another teacher in a classroom and assume that that person can be responsible to solve the issues that would be represented there.

J. DINN: I think, Minister, I'm going to have to invite you to come – let's go teach in a primary and elementary classroom for a week and I'll be able to see it as well because I'm high school trained. We'll see because it's not about putting a teacher in the classroom; it's also about reducing the number in that classroom. That goes for the children that are coming from other countries as well. It's not simply adding $3 million to it; it's also making sure that they have the services they need and that's what I'm talking about.

K. HOWELL: I think we're saying the same thing, MHA Dinn.

J. DINN: Oh, I know.

K. HOWELL: I think we're saying the same thing.

J. DINN: But I'm saying let's respond to it a little bit more rapidly than looking at it.

With regard to the integration of the K-to-12 education system into the department, is it possible to have a list of the efficiencies that have been achieved; where the office space has been rendered unnecessary; how much money has been spent to whether the changeover is stationary, the logo, you name it – I'm looking at, where has it been found? Are we saving any money? Is that money being diverted into the classroom?

When this was first announced in 2021, the promise was we'll have a better idea of the efficiencies we want to achieve when we get into it. Well, now we are into it. So I'm trying to get an idea if this was a worthwhile effort, the cost-benefit analysis. I saw it done in 2013 when the four districts were collapsed into one. I can't say it made the system efficient, so I'm just wondering some proof, hard numbers here, please.

K. HOWELL: So we are four months into that process now. The integration started on the 1st of January, and we do keep running totals of what expenditures there may have been, what efficiencies may have been identified.

But right now we're still very much in the developmental phase. There is still a lot of movement and a lot of people that we're trying to find the right size, right fit for the integration process. So I would be hesitant to give you a number right now because it's not fully implemented.

But knowing full well that there is a record of what it is costing us and where we're going – and I would also add to that, the integration wasn't necessarily a cost-saving exercise. It wasn't primarily focused to be a cost-saving exercise; it is certainly to provide a more efficient and effective mechanism of delivery of our education system here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The Member for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

I just want to continue on with one comment on what my colleague was speaking to in talking about the classrooms and teacher allocations. I know, last year, it was noted that a larger portion of the student population are now being identified as having exceptionalities. I think we all agree that education is to set up our youth to succeed and give them the best environment to learn and be safe.

K. HOWELL: We can get a description of the supports that are available in our classrooms. Do you have it, Scott?

S. LINEHAN: No problem.

K. HOWELL: Okay, I'll defer to Scott Linehan to give you some of that information.

S. LINEHAN: In addition to EAL teachers, as well we've subscribed to a service whereby a translation service can be provided in real time. So when we're having parent teacher interviews, as an example, if the parent has questions for the teacher, from a host of different languages, we can have that interaction with the family through this platform of real time of an app. We have a translator who can talk for the teacher and the parents.

P. DINN: But how does that happen in the classroom, for the children who are in the classroom?

S. LINEHAN: So the EAL teacher will work in the classroom with the teacher and in other times, the EAL teacher may take the student out for pull-out supports and work one on one with the student. So it's a mixture of academic as well as social integration with the EAL teacher with the classroom teacher.

P. DINN: Okay, thank you for that.

Still in the classroom, with the ever-increasing use of integration of screen-based technology in our schools, what measures or how much has been budgeted to address any potential detrimental effects from the use or excessive exposure to digital resources?

K. HOWELL: There isn't a particular budget line that identifies that type of resource, but, as I said, on a case-by-case basis, we look at what it is that are services that our children may need and we'll evaluate those as they come in.

P. DINN: Okay.

Research has shown, again, that technology has a deteriorating effect on reading, writing, math competencies and, of course, our latest reports show us that we're suffering when it comes to math.

What measures have been taken to address this?

K. HOWELL: As I mentioned before, we undertake a curriculum review when something like this would trigger or necessitate it. So we continue to look at our scores in our literacy and our numeracy, looking at our reading skills, our math skills on a regular basis, especially when we have standardized testing results that would come out.

P. DINN: I guess, staying on the theme here, because I'm mainly focused on the technology and excessive use of technologies and any detrimental effects that it would have on our children. It's been indicated that media overuse can lead to obesity, less sleep, delays in language development and delays in social and emotional development. We all know the effects COVID has had. So what measures is the department taking to address those effects?

K. HOWELL: Our plans for transformation, the development of our transformation plan for the K-to-12 system will certainly take those things into consideration. I think it's very important that we realize we can't run from technology in the space that we live in. So it's important that we teach our children appropriate usage and teach them the means necessary to continue to grow their education and use it responsibly.

As part of our early learning platform, we've introduced digital literacy programming that'll help parents of early learners be able to develop a proper understanding of usage of these devices, as well as implementing it through our K-to-12 system to ensure that the students have a basic understanding of how to manage their time and manage their usage and use it for the best-intentioned purposes for education. At the same time, recognizing it plays a massive role in the day to day of society. We don't want it to become something that we fear or that we assume to be all bad.

So as we look at our plans for transformation and use in the Education Accord, looking at how we use those things over the lifespan of a learner, will be key in that.

P. DINN: Yeah, no argument from me that technology, you have to have an understanding. A three-year-old can do more than I can right now, that's just the way of the world. I guess it relates partially to my question on cafeterias, children need those spaces where they can go and concentrate on something else other than being stuck to a screen. I would even go so far as to say in some instances some of the violence in our classroom may be caused by what you're looking at on the screens and overuse of it. I know my three kids, my oldest, she got her cellphone at an early age, the next one got it earlier and so on and so on.

So what's the current policy or are we looking at a policy with regard to the use of technology and, in particular, cellphones within the classroom?

K. HOWELL: Cellphone usage in the classroom is certainly a discussion that we've had ongoing with our partners at the NLTA. Again, they are the folks that see the day-in and day-out of how this unfolds in our classrooms. So it's a continued discussion. We hear from some teachers who say ban it flat out, altogether. Then we hear from others who say it's not the way to go. That's not how they want to spend their day, trying to deal with those types of issues.

So achieving a delicate balance and looking at what the best, most appropriate use of these devices would be is where we find ourselves. I think that teaching children to use it responsibly is part of the proposed change and certainly, again, something that society has to grab onto and recognize that these kids have these devices in their hands all the time.

There comes a time when some people might need a little extra encouragement to put down their device. Maybe it's the role of finding a new activity or parents engaging in conversation with their children that gets them off their device; sometimes parents are as guilty as the children of sitting down and getting absorbed in our devices and in our technology. So I think that's very much a societal trend that we all have to come to grips with and figure out a solution for.

P. DINN: I think the solution there is in having some very concrete, well defined, I'll say, regulations or policies around that, depending on the age group. I know some teachers in the past would have on the back of their door like a shoe rack and you put your phone in because a learning environment is a learning environment and, yes, when you have to learn about how to utilize a phone, yeah, you access it.

But I think that creates a lot of issues within a school environment in terms of your attention. It's a little different now; you'd be passing a note along in my day.

K. HOWELL: Yeah.

P. DINN: But now they're just texting and texting. You see it in this House on a regular day.

So it's really something that we need to get a grasp on and something we need to look at in terms of policy there. As you said, there's a time for technology and there's a time for not and we've got to find that balance because a lot of teachers are left to struggle with this.

K. HOWELL: To your point, MHA Dinn, I think that's where we, as a society, have to make decisions about our responsible technology use because it's not just in the classrooms. It's in every workplace, it's in every setting and it's certainly something that we see in our schools.

So in terms of policies or regulations, right now they operate on a school-by-school basis and teachers and administrators can look at what is the best solution for their classrooms. Again, as I said, there's a mixed review on what that implementation should look like. Some teachers are more pro a complete ban and some see it as a futile exercise. Because, to your point about the shoe holder over the door, in some schools where that was implemented, students were bringing a second cellphone to school and using a dud to put in the slot and still had their own device at their desk.

It certainly requires the input of our schools on a case-by-case basis and, overall, looking at responsible use, I think, is our safest way to assure our students have the appropriate technology without being overwhelmed and overcome by it.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The Member for St. John's Centre.

J. DINN: Thank you, Chair.

I'll talk a little bit about the technology and pick up a little on what the Member for Topsail - Paradise said. As a teacher who dealt with the burgeoning cellphone, it was a struggle in terms of having students paying attention, what they were using the phones for and so on and so forth.

I will say this, as a teacher, about banning it. I know about the use of the duds and so on and so forth, but I'll put it this way: It comes down to the supports you get from home and from the school district. I will tell you that when it came to enforcing rules and regulations, I will have to say that teachers had precious little support from the district I think. Because if the parent complained or whatever else, any action by the teacher could very well be overruled, and that would happen.

After a while, it came down to the point, well, why bother enforcing it because we're not going to get the support? No different than filling out the violent incident forms. What's the use of filling it out because nothing is ever done? All we're doing is just adding more work to ourselves with no hope to respond.

So I will say that it does have to be addressed in terms of if we're looking at outcomes, as to how much students are paying attention to what is going on in the classroom versus how much they're paying attention to what's going on, on the screen. And, as a teacher, I could always tell when they were engaged in lap gazing. You could tell. It came down to how much of a fight do you want to have.

I think there has to be some policy and it's got to come down, whether it's from the department or whether it's from the district, but it's got to be prepared to stick by the teachers in the classrooms in schools that we're going to enforce this. Otherwise, it's a futile exercise. It really is.

K. HOWELL: Yeah, I would agree with you on that measure. If it's a stance that the department takes, then of course we have to prepared to support our teachers in that stance. That's why right now we're certainly not looking to make it an additional task for teachers or to compromise their classroom management with putting that task onto them if it's not something that they feel would be appropriate for their classroom.

Looking at our school-by-school consideration right now is the information that we take back in terms of how we deal with this and make policy or regulations around. We're continuing to work on that with our partners.

J. DINN: As a teacher, all I want to know is if I'm enforcing a rule, am I going to be backed up by the department, by the district? If I'm not and the students say, ha, I got my phone back, you've just basically undermined the teacher in many ways. To me, if you're not going to enforce the rule, then don't make the rule. If you're going to make the rule, enforce it. That means standing up to public pressure as well, whatever it is.

So with regard to technology, on that note, I did have a question here related to – it's a budgetary question. This was sent to me by a teacher with regard to the Windows 10 expiry. That any device, laptop or desktop, running Windows 10 basically will represent a security risk and will have to be removed from the networks by October 14, 2025. Now, that's a ways off, I realize, but closer than we think.

So I'm just wondering here who's going to be responsible then for replacing that technology in a school. Because that represents a significant challenge, especially if it got to come out of an operating budget. Some schools, they're probably scraping by anyway. Some schools enter into fundraising just to get technology for the 21st century learning that comes with it – SMART Boards and so on and so forth.

I'm just trying to think here, what's the plan in terms of making sure that schools are not disadvantaged, that they're not chewing up their own operational budget, which they could be using for other things, to basically replace that kind of technology on that scale.

I think for one school in particular, you're probably looking at $120,000 they've got to come up with. That's a chunk of change for a school.

K. HOWELL: So IT management is certainly something that falls under the realm of NLSchools, and something we're very keen to continue working on.

I'll defer to the ADM for Operations to speak further on that.

CHAIR: Terry Hall.

T. HALL: Thank you.

MHA Dinn, we are very, very aware of that, and we've been looking at it for a few months now. I guess what I can say here is that there's potentially a solution that will extend the life of Windows 10, that we're exploring with our provider. If that, in fact, doesn't come true, then we'll have to look at what we do to replace these devices, and work with schools to be able to make them still be able to function with their technology.

Now, 7 to 12, we make sure all students have devices anyway, and all teachers, so they'll be able to at least avail of the devices that we put in their hands to continue doing work at those levels.

J. DINN: I appreciate that, especially if it can be extended, but even if it's extended, at some point, they might get to the point where you really can't extend it. So I guess my thing here is please, that burden shouldn't fall to the schools. Because some schools have a base where they can raise a significant amount of money, and others, it's just because of the socio-economic factors, they just don't have that ability. I would draw your attention to that.

With regard to schools, the Public Procurement Policy, they're subject to that process as well?

K. HOWELL: Yes.

J. DINN: If I may make a comment, maybe a look at reviewing them for schools, and I'll give this explanation. I was talking to one school during COVID – and it's interesting how it was put to me, and I've had this experience. I can go out and source the product for a lot cheaper, but because I've got to go through the onerous process of getting three quotes – it's onerous on the teacher who doesn't have a support staff, but it also ends up costing much more. I would say that's the case for a lot of – if anything, if you know a teacher, we can be incredibly industrious and efficient in finding deals for the classroom.

All I'm saying here is I worry about the process because, I think in many ways, it's forcing schools to stretch an already tight, limited budget.

I don't expect a response to that, unless you say you're reviewing it, it's fine, but that needs to be brought up, especially when it comes to replacing expensive technology.

K. HOWELL: Thank you, noted.

J. DINN: So onward and forward, I referenced violent incidents, the investigation process, and I'm just wondering what the timeline is, if the department or the district gets a report of a violent incident, such as a teacher in one of the schools here who had her jaw broken as the result of a young student, believe it or not, in terms of dealing with that, what's the process? How long does it take, if anything at all is done to address it?

K. HOWELL: Thank you for that question.

Again, this is one of the things that has become a daily discussion in our department and, I guess, the length of an investigation is based upon what it is that we're investigating in terms of the most serious incidents. The more rare occurrences that actually do result in having to take it above and beyond our school system, if there's a criminal aspect that needs to be considered, of course, that will take a little longer. But for the case-by-case basis, I'll get Terry Hall to speak to what the investigation process looks like for, we'll say, our day-to-day operations.

T. HALL: Thanks.

I know you don't expect me to, but I can't speak to specific cases, but when an incident comes in it's determined, first of all, what caused the incident, whether or not an investigation needs to happen and we'll kick in the process immediately. We try and get through it as quickly as possible; it depends upon the nature and how many people we need to speak to. Again, a result of that could deviate it to an outside authority, if we feel that we need to do that, especially if it involves a student, we may have to get outside forces to help us to deal with younger people in those types of incidents.

CHAIR: Okay, the Member's time has expired.

The hon. the Member for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

I just want to talk to a big issue which is teacher retention and recruitment. We know that some classes are being doubled up and guidance specialities are being pulled away from their job to teach. A lot of these continue. I know last year in the budget Estimates it was indicated that a draft retention and recruitment plan was completed along with the NLTA.

Just curious as to what's the status of that retention and recruitment plan that was already completed in draft a year ago?

K. HOWELL: In terms of the recruitment and retention draft that was –

P. DINN: Yeah, there was a draft plan last year in the Estimates that was said to have been completed. I'm just curious as to whatever became of that.

K. HOWELL: We realized that it needed to have more in it and that was resulted in our Think Tank. We had to go back to the folks that are on the ground day-in and day-out to get a more fulsome picture of what it is that would be effective recruitment, retention measures. We wanted to engage our partners at the NLTA.

I know I say that a lot and I even say it in Question Period, but it is something that's very important to me, because the frustration of being a front-line worker and having a policy implemented and just completely downloaded on to you without having time to respond or give your input was incredibly frustrating to me and I don't want that to be something that's ever said of a department that I am responsible to speak for. I always want it to reach the front lines so that we get input from those who do the day-in, day-out.

That was the premise of our survey that was sent out to our teachers and our administrators to get their feedback. We had an overwhelming response to that, 2,200-plus responses to how we can better do things in our classrooms. There was a wide range of suggestions, which we managed to group into some themes that came out and the top priorities that were identified there, and able to move quickly on some of the issues that were identified. As we've talked about here tonight some of them are a little bit more medium- and long-term goals that we wish to achieve.

So as we build our plan for recruitment and retention, those are the things that we'll be looking to build on, in particular, I think the outcome of our Education Accord will inform our 10-year plan. So it will identify some upfront things as well that we can do, as well as some medium- and long-term goals that we can implement right across our education spectrum.

We've also committed to a committee, through the collective bargaining process, that will look at what these measures will look like and how the implementation rolls out, if they deem that it would be appropriate or if we're out to lunch on some of the things that we're looking to implement, then this committee will certainly remind us of that and ensure that we have the best plan moving forward.

P. DINN: So what was the process for the plan that was drafted last year?

K. HOWELL: The plan that was formed was in collaboration with the NLTA, but I don't know at the end of the plan if everybody thought that it was what we hoped it would be. So not necessarily to go back to the drawing board, but certainly to put more meat on the bones of what was the plan.

P. DINN: So would I be correct in saying, currently, we do not have a full-fledged, retention and recruitment plan?

K. HOWELL: We have several pieces of a plan. To say we have A, B, C, and D and let's figure that out, I wouldn't say that we have that plan. But when we look at the different pieces that make up our recruitment and our retention, they form a very vast group of bonuses, incentives and places that we think we can make improvements for recruitment and retention.

Not the least of which was a commitment in this year's budget for $850,000 to recruit for some of our harder-to-fill, some of the historically challenging areas to fill, and some creative solutions to some of the problems that are identified in those areas, particularly the schools in Labrador where housing seemed to be an issue. We were able to provide housing for our teachers. If they were not NLSchools housing, then we were able to offer a stipend to find housing that was appropriate in the community and give them that opportunity.

We also looked at access because air access is sometimes a challenge in some of these places, so we were able to offer travel for the teachers in and out of the areas throughout the year.

P. DINN: Interesting.

So in Budget 2024, it includes this $850,000 for recruitment and retention initiatives in hard-to-fill rural, remote and isolated areas. It went on to say that these initiatives will build on efforts made last year, as well as information garnered from the recent Teachers' Think Tank. These will further enhance activities and recognize the value of teachers and educators.

So, just curiosity here, what were the results from last year's initiatives?

K. HOWELL: We were able to fill 97 per cent of the targeted areas that we apply these principles to. This recruitment initiative was applied to, as we said, some of the rural, remote areas and had a 97 per cent success rate in filling those positions.

So that was evidence to us that what we were doing was meaningful and we want to build on that.

P. DINN: So what areas did you focus on? What areas were in that 97 per cent?

K. HOWELL: Those were primarily in Labrador, and I'll defer to the ADM of Operations to add additional information.

T. HALL: Sure, thanks.

That was primarily in what we called our hard-to-fill areas, as the minister alluded to. So, yes, a lot in Labrador where we were trying to attract teachers to go. Some more remote places even here on the Island that we were trying to get people to go to, places like Fogo Island, where it was a little remote, those types of places that we would have put some incentives to attract people to go there.

P. DINN: So how many positions in total? We're talking 97 per cent of them were filled of the targeted. So how many was targeted?

T. HALL: We had a little over 100 targeted that we needed to fill, and we had 97 per cent. So a little over 100 is what it was.

P. DINN: Okay.

T. HALL: I can get you an exact number at some point, but I do know that it was 79 that we filled, which was a 97.5 per cent fill rate.

P. DINN: Okay, thank you.

If I can get it later, the breakout of where they were in the remote areas.

T. HALL: Sure.

P. DINN: Just on that, were there any areas that were left with a huge, unmet need? Now, I know you said 97 per cent, but that was for the total. Were there areas where you particularly had trouble filling or recruiting?

K. HOWELL: Again, 97 per cent of those classrooms were filled and the other 3 per cent were often met with substitutes or emergency supply. It was every endeavour to have a substitute, a trained teacher, in those classrooms and, where the resources could not allow, then often it was required to implement an emergency supply.

P. DINN: Okay.

There's a continued phase then of the Kids in the Know body safety program for K-to-9 classrooms. I'm just curious to how many classrooms is this program currently available in.

K. HOWELL: My memory is failing me on that number; I don't know if the ADM for K to 12 can speak to that?

CHAIR: Scott Linehan.

S. LINEHAN: So we've expanded to 40 additional schools this school year.

P. DINN: So how many was last year?

S. LINEHAN: I think it was 23, but I'd have to verify. I think it was 23.

P. DINN: Let's talk about pre-kindergarten. Let's move along.

Locations are opening and phased in throughout the province, with the creation of something like 3,000 regulated child care spaces. Last year in Estimates, it was noted that 245 graduates would be coming out of the College of the North Atlantic, as well as there were about 600 who had left the profession.

I'm curious as to how many of those, last year, that 245 as well as the 600 that were identified as having left the profession, were employed or are employed?

K. HOWELL: I'll defer to the ADM for Early Learning.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: There are 263 ECEs employed this year, newly attached to the workforce.

P. DINN: Just –

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

P. DINN: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, I'll get you next time.

CHAIR: We'll move on to the Member for St. John's Centre.

J. DINN: Thank you, Chair.

The last discussion, we were talking about violence in the school. I want to point out one thing. If you talk to any teacher who's been the victim of violence, it's interesting: It's never about blaming the child.

I've had teachers who've been punched, kicked, who'd come to me, still come to me, and have suffered extreme violence, but it's always about the child needs the supports in a large classroom that he or she is not thriving. Whether it's a lack of self-regulation or the inability, I didn't see it as much in high school. Most of the violence there is probably student on student, let's take it out in the parking lot and that kind of thing.

But I will say, in some ways, it is about teachers, because when we did supervision, you might say, in high school, most of the students could pick me up and make a pretzel out of me if they wanted to. So it wasn't about breaking up things, but the mere presence of a teacher, that extra person there was a deterrent. And it's also about building relationships, too, if nothing else.

So I will say that maybe there is also looking at alternate settings as well or alternate schools. I come to believe that the public school system may not be the right venue, the right place for all students at any one time. Some thrive later and some thrive in that time. This is from just talking to students, what they needed. Sometimes it's just to have that one on one, basically.

I'm just wondering then in relation to that, one of the things that rankled with me as a teacher and other teachers has to do with the whole notion of soft caps and hard caps, as to what would qualify. We've got class caps but they're soft caps and you can go a little bit over.

So I'm just wondering here, will the department then – and you've got a partner, as you've indicated, with the NLTA, maybe in what remains of this year, to set up class caps that can be then enshrined in legislation as hard caps. So if it meets that cap or goes over, it automatically triggers maybe a splitting of the class in some way. Or, depending on the composition of the class, if you have three students who have diagnosed exceptionalities, that they count as three students each. So they are formulas that we have proposed at one time.

I'm just wondering where you stand, will you work with the NLTA to establish hard caps in all areas of instruction? I mean, that would be one very clear way of enforcing it because, as long as we have soft caps, it's a moving target.

K. HOWELL: So given the considerations of our classroom allocations, that's a piece of the discussion that we're looking at. We continue that discussion with our partners at the NLTA. When we look at the number of students that we find in our classrooms now that have exceptionalities, it's more difficult to say that you can flow students in, flow student out because there are significant implications when you have children in classrooms with these resource needs.

So, as part of our commitment to looking at a needs-based allocation, the hard caps will certainly be part of that discussion.

J. DINN: I'm thinking of substitute teachers. I know several of my colleagues who served with me on the NLTA, who I worked with, now are retired and not necessarily by choice, but out of the necessity, they are subbing full-time, not because they need the money, but because if they didn't do it, there would be no teacher. I'm thinking of some sole-charged schools and colleagues who, if they wanted to, they could be working full-time but they have not.

So with regard to that, in terms of retention and recruitment, a lot of teachers are covering for colleagues, they are giving up their prep time, which I can tell you is used for either calling parents, photocopying, conferencing with the student, you name it. It's lost.

I'm just wondering, if you want to look at a retention device, maybe compensating teachers who had to fill in for their colleagues because there is no substitute.

K. HOWELL: As we look at our recruitment and retention plan, those are ongoing discussions. We're certainly not taking anything off the table in terms of how we can build a plan that works and makes sense for the K-to-12 system here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

To your point, there are a significant number of retirees still attached to the system. The simple math is that 250, on average, are retiring every year and we're only getting 130 out of our education system, post-secondary level.

So there are a significant number of retirees still attached to the system and we continue to work on that as part of a recruitment and retention plan: How we can get more people to be interested in this profession; what can we do as we've identified, how can we incentivize some of these positions; how do we get people to take the hard-to-fill positions; people who choose to not take full-time versus substitute; and all of those measures are included in our plans for recruitment and retention.

Fully admitting that we don't know all the answers right now, but the things that we have implemented that work, we want to continue to build on that.

J. DINN: Thank you, Minister.

I think that's what I've been doing by asking my question here are some ideas.

Can I ask a question: How many over on this side were primary and elementary teachers at one time?

Okay, I wasn't either. I have a reason for asking it.

You want to recruit teachers, you want to become their best friend and a new best friend for the NLTA, commit to eliminating supervision in the school system and hire people to do that, especially in primary and elementary where supervision is onerous and because of the nature of the child, you've got small children and so on and so forth. So if you have paid professionals who come in and they take care of that supervision, that frees up teachers to do an awful lot of work that they need to be doing. If nothing else, it gives them some downtime.

But if you've got – because of busing

schedule – a 40-minute lunch, you might be doing it three or four times in the run of a week, from a primary and elementary school perspective, especially, that would be significant.

So that's one thing: Will there be a commitment to finding a plan to eliminate supervision for teachers in the school system and have someone else do that?

K. HOWELL: Certainly, as I've mentioned, when we talk about our recruitment and retention, all of these suggestions are welcomed and noted. As I've said, I will always defer to the folks who have been there, lived it and done it, to give us the best perspective. So thank you for that.

J. DINN: Perfect.

And one other thing, eliminate the fractional units. You're not getting a teacher to go to a remote area for 0.25 or 0.15.

K. HOWELL: I agree.

J. DINN: Okay.

K. HOWELL: We've made a concentrated effort to ensure that in places, especially in our rural areas, where there might be a 0.5 or 0.25, that we are trying to attach that to another 0.5 or 0.25 to give something meaningful for our teachers to want to be part of. Because as you said, it's very difficult to – like, what's 0.25 of a teacher? I'm sure there are times when they can be utilized in the system.

So we have decreased the number of our partial units significantly, but we're continuing to work on that. This past year, an additional 19.75 units were distributed to allow for partial positions to become full-time, equivalent positions, that allowed for an additional 58 positions to become full-time instead of partial.

J. DINN: So you introduced another 19.75? There you go, fractional again.

Anyway, my point is that even in town, a 0.25 position is not affordable, if you've got to pay rent. Most teachers are doing 100 per cent of the job, even if they're only getting paid for 0.25.

The other

part is: Once you've got them recruited, what are we doing to retain them?

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

It's 7:36, we are going to take a 10-minute break, exactly 10 minutes.

Recess

CHAIR: Okay, we'll start again.

Just a reminder that we're still in 1.1.01 to 1.2.01.

We'll start with the MHA for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

Just to start off where I left off, talking about the pre-kindergarten pilot program. I'm just curious, what's the status of the pre-kindergarten implementation in terms of how many locations are currently in place and how many are expected to be in place this September coming?

K. HOWELL: So we've made significant progress on our pre-K sites. I'm hesitant to give a number, I will turn to my ADM of Early Learning because that changes almost by the day now. There are a few that are in the final stages of clueing up.

We had 24 pre-K pilot sites that are operational through the YMCA that has created 457 spaces and we have 10 that are currently a work in progress.

I am told that my ADM, right at the moment, has an update to this number.

P. DINN: My God, news at 11. This just in.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Yeah, we now have 29 sites that are currently operating and six are in progress, for a total of 505 spaces.

P. DINN: Thank you.

Just before I forget, are we able to get a copy of your briefing binder, please?

K. HOWELL: Yes, absolutely.

P. DINN: Thank you.

Just to go back to a point that was made when I asked about how many graduates were employed. I think the comment was 263 are new and attached to early childhood education jobs. How many, out of the 245 graduates of the College of the North Atlantic, do we hire each year or did we hire last year?

K. HOWELL: I'll turn to the ADM.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: I would say that would be 100 per cent of the new positions would've been hired into.

We do have a number of those who attended post-secondary who actually went in as a result of the wage grid and wanted to upskill. So there are some additional positions that they were already working, then they went in to get the additional level so that they would get the higher wage and that's obviously good for quality for our centres as well.

P. DINN: Perfect, thank you.

In relation to the early childhood education staff, have all of them received their full retroactive payment from government?

OFFICIAL: Yes.

P. DINN: Do we have a total on how much was paid out in the retro pay?

K. HOWELL: We can get that number for you.

P. DINN: Okay, perfect.

If it's all paid out, I would assume that all ECEs are now currently getting paid at the appropriate level?

K. HOWELL: Yes.

P. DINN: Perfect, thank you.

K. HOWELL: If there are any that think they're not, then, by all means, reach out and ensure that we have captured who represents what level. Because as the ADM mentioned, as you increase your education, increase your certification, it certainly provides an extra layer of rigour to the centres and the quality of service that they're providing.

P. DINN: Thank you.

In November, the Premier announced 160 new $10-a-day spaces at a new building on St. Michael's Avenue in St. John's, the Discovery Collegiate in Bonavista and the Eastside Elementary in Corner Brook. These spaces were anticipated to be open, well, next month, and would have hours that would meet the needs of medical professionals.

What is the update on those three locations? Are they going to open on time? How many will they accommodate? If they're not open on time, when?

K. HOWELL: As you referenced, some of them were new builds, some of them were renovations, so different timelines for those two types of structures.

I'll turn to the ADM who can give us a centre-by-centre breakdown.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: We do have an additional site, actually, added to that. We actually have a total of four sites. There's a site on Austin Street. That one we anticipate will be the quicker opening within the next say month, month and a half. Discovery Collegiate and – I'm not sure which one was in Corner Brook?

P. DINN: Eastside Elementary.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Eastside Elementary, those ones are working through the renovation phases and within the next three months we anticipate those will be open.

The location on St. Michael's Avenue is taking a little bit longer because it's a brand-new build, so they had to do the additional work with respect to municipalities. We anticipate by September for that one.

P. DINN: Thank you for that.

There were 160 new positions or spaces announced, so with the fourth site, does that change?

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: That changes, yeah, absolutely. So that's up to 210 additional spaces.

P. DINN: Related to that, are we perceiving any issues coming up with proper staff for those sites?

K. HOWELL: Our recruitment and retention efforts are ongoing in our ECEs. We've had great success in uptake and believe that we'll continue to have success in those positions.

P. DINN: Thank you.

There's also additional funding to post-secondary institutions to ensure early childhood education programs are more accessible and to increase the number of graduates. A needs-based grant was provided to eligible students in approved programs, with non-repayable grants of up to $10,000. Do we know how many availed of that program?

K. HOWELL: We can certainly get that information from our partners.

P. DINN: I'm looking at in September, the Department of Education announced an allotment of $7.5 million through the federal Child Care Capacity Initiative towards a new time-limited funding program called Create A Space Incentive Grant. This grant assists eligible applicants with creating a total of 750 new regulated care spaces throughout the province. What's the status of these spaces?

K. HOWELL: These spaces are, too, at various stages of development. I don't know if you have a more –

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: They're at various stages over the next, again, month to 24 months, depending on what's required, whether it's a new build, the size of the centres themselves. It's actually 761 spaces now. We've had some additional people come forward and we've been able to work within the budget to allow those additional spaces.

P. DINN: So these spaces are not connected at all to the earlier question on those?

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: No, that's correct.

P. DINN: Those are separate.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Yeah.

P. DINN: Can we get a breakdown of where these are being built and what they're going to accommodate? You may not have it now but we can get a breakdown of that?

K. HOWELL: It was part of the news release that was released last week, but we can certainly forward that to you.

P. DINN: You had one last week? I missed that one.

Okay, thank you.

Just moving along here, the Early Childhood Education Recruitment and Retention Grant would provide eligible childhood educators with $2,500 upon initial certification renewal of Level I and II certification, up to a maximum of $7,500. How many have availed of that program, the Early Childhood Education Recruitment and Retention Grant?

K. HOWELL: That's a number that we can reach out to our partners at AECENL to get for you.

P. DINN: Thank you.

The child care demand portal: Do we know what the latest stats are on that?

K. HOWELL: I am so excited to talk about the child care demand portal.

P. DINN: That question was planted by the way.

K. HOWELL: I paid you to ask me that one. No, no, no that is a fallacy.

OFFICIAL: No.

K. HOWELL: No?

Oh, sooner.

OFFICIAL: By the end of May.

K. HOWELL: By the end of May. See how quick this crowd over here works. They just knocked off time like that.

By the end of May we will be able to give a rudimentary version. Of course, there is a lot of opportunity to add bells and whistles, overlay with maps and all of those types of things. The possibilities are limitless when we look at this gateway and how it can provide information to parents and to centres who offer these services to our children. So looking very much forward to that.

P. DINN: Okay, I thought I'd squeeze one more in, but that's all right, I'll get you on the way around.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The Member for St. John's Centre.

J. DINN: Thank you, Chair.

I just want to pick up with the $850,000 for the continued funding for recruitment and retention, and in context, too, I'm looking at the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development, the 28.5 per cent vacancy in social workers. I'm looking at it from this point of view, a question I wanted to ask is: What's being done for retention? Recruitment is fine, but it's about retaining them.

I guess one of the things in sort of analogist to the social workers is that if the problems that are keeping teachers from taking the position and staying there are not addressed, whether that means like complex cases and the workload, then you can recruit but you won't retain.

So I'm trying to get an idea of what's being done to retain because the budget really hasn't grown, it's a continuation. It's not like it's new money; maybe more needs to be done. So I'm looking at how successful, but how well are we doing at retaining teachers?

K. HOWELL: Again, that was part of the conversation that we had with our teachers during the Think Tank. We looked at some measures that we may be able to implement to encourage the retention process, as we look down the line, not the least of which is the 2 per cent wage increase, which will, by the end of the collective agreement, see our teaching services budget go to $750 million. We offered the one-time recognition bonus for teachers.

We want to ensure that there's competitiveness here in Newfoundland and Labrador. So recognizing the wages was a piece of that and continuing these incentives for our rural and remote areas. Also looking at how we can do a more timely selection of teachers for the start of an academic school year so that you're not last minute trying to shuffle and see what that looks like, what our process looks like there. We've added an additional report card day to assist teachers in managing their workload.

We're taking a closer look at our responsive teaching and learning model, given some of the feedback that was acquired through our Think Tank process on that. Sometimes you implement these programs but it's also very important to evaluate what it looks like and see where there's been success identified and where there maybe opportunities to build and develop.

We're also looking at modernizing some of the

definitions that we use in terms of harassment and discrimination, giving the teachers a little more concrete platforms to build those words and see what that means to them. We've agreed with the NLTA to a committee that will address these issues on an ongoing basis. So simply giving the one-offs won't be the plan moving forward.

There are some things that you can implement earlier or on an immediate basis, but we've recognized again that we need to do that in terms of a constant evaluation of what it is we're doing, what's working and what's not.

We offered an additional $450,000 to support mental health for teachers in the classrooms, recognizing some of the stresses and strains that they've been under. So the NLTA has been given a grant to allocate for that.

Continuing into their French school board, we've added two additional floating teacher positions to help cover off some of the rural and remote pressures that they've been facing.

So all of these things in conjunction with our continues efforts and commitment to evaluate what we're doing to see what's working.

J. DINN: I'll be honest, it's minimal and it really is minimal: $450,000 for mental health – great. It all helps, but, as a teacher, I don't want to get to the stage where I'm going to need EAP. Most of us don't want to get to that stage. Looking at continuing to talk is not going to make a row of beans in some ways with regards to this.

I'm looking here at the retention piece and I'm just trying to get at it terms of, I think, Minister, you mentioned the collective agreement, the salary increase and most of the times in the process, we'll accept that because it comes to the stage when we're told we're not getting anything else, period.

Certainly, as a teacher, starting off, I understand the need for money, I was there, but after a while what becomes extremely more valuable is time. The time to do the job properly; the time to be able to make the phone calls that you need to make; the time to prepare, to correct, to talk to, counsel students; and so on and so forth.

So we can look at the collective agreement and say, wow, we got that increase. It still comes down to, it's not addressing the retention piece as much as you might think. Money will go so far; otherwise, I guess we'd have nurses in the system and everything else, you name it. It's about, also, the time; making sure that the working conditions are such that it's manageable, that they're able to achieve a work/life balance. So I draw that there.

It's $850,000, I still want to see something more concrete that is going to make this a profession that people want to come to. I was talking to one young teacher downtown who is finishing up his degree and is planning to head off to Calgary – not planning to stay here at all.

It's troubling to know that's what's keeping a lot of schools, I'd say not only in rural areas but in the centre of the city, are our retirees. That's significant. Part of the reason, I guess, is that as a retiree, you can walk in and you can walk out. Your arms are swinging, as simple as that. A lot of retirees have been asked: Would you fill in full-time? No, I'm not interested in full-time.

I think when we're looking at that $850,000, it's about seriously looking at retention and not just the recruitment.

Has there been any discussion with the NLTA with regard to addressing this or setting up, I don't know, a plan, a framework, a discussion? Is there anything here, because I know if I had a wonderful relationship with the minister, I know what I'd be bringing up if I were president in that position. So I'm just wondering what has the NLTA been talking about and what have they suggested?

K. HOWELL: As I've referenced before, there is a committee that was established as part of the collective agreement to look at recruitment and retention on an ongoing basis, to evaluate the things that we've implemented to see what's working, what's not and where we can make improvements.

It's vital to us that we have that feedback from our partners at the NLTA in terms of how we develop this plan and that was, again, the premise of the Think Tank to determine what were the key issues that we could identify. I'll say it again, I did not want to make this a top-down approach where I looked at a classroom and assumed what was to be the issue in the classroom.

We had the Think Tank 21 working days before budget day. That was not a significant amount of time to make changes to allocations or to look at putting different resources in classrooms; 21 business days gave us some immediate actions that we implemented to relieve some pressure points, but we have to take a more concentrated effort on what it is that we can implement in our classrooms.

Again, if I came out swinging after the Think Tank and offered numbers and dropped teachers in classrooms all across this province, I would have been accused of being reckless with that allocation and not really knowing what I was doing with it, so it was important to me that we have an understanding of what's required.

It is going to take time, and I will reiterate that, when you look at a needs-based allocation, it's going to take time to figure that out. Right now, we want to make sure that the classrooms are supported until we get to that point where we have an actual plan that makes sense, that's approved by the NLTA and that looks like something that's actually going to work in our classrooms.

J. DINN: Minister, it's going to take time. Since 2004, when Dave Dibbon put his report out, It's About Time!! – it's 20 years. We're well past the time right now – we're well past it. So the question I was asking is: What did the NLTA, your partner, tell you is needed to be done to address it, because it's not about a Think Tank? Unless you're expecting me to believe that they haven't given you any suggestions or told you anything about their concerns, whether in a meeting, in correspondence or whatever else.

K. HOWELL: With all due respect MHA Dinn, in 2004 the only thing I was concerned about in school was what colour my grad dress was going to be. I only got here a year ago.

As we've worked through some of the issues with the NLTA, the ideas that came from our Think Tank were presented. As I mentioned, 2,200 people had responded to our surveys and they identified some of the key issues being classroom allocations, being teacher resources, being student supports. All of this information is available in the What We Heard document that you can reference from our teachers' survey.

CHAIR: The Member's time has expired.

The hon. the Member for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

I just want to make a comment along the lines of the discussion right now. Yes, the minister is new to her role, there's no doubt about that, but I think it's a bit disheartening, I guess, as a teacher or as a student or as the NLTA, when you look at the multiple, multiple reports that have been done over the years and we always seem to be in a reboot mode. I think that's what's disheartening about this.

All these reports that have been out there and done, surely, surely there's been something of value that has come out of those reports that can be implemented. So in all due respect to the minister, yes, you're new to this, but this has been an ongoing issue for a long time. Trying to see and learn what's been implemented and what's working out of those reports is a key piece to getting some success here.

K. HOWELL: If I can have a minute to respond.

P. DINN: Yes, go ahead, sorry.

K. HOWELL: That is indeed the premise of our Education Accord, is to take a look at some of the things that have come forward from reports past, not to create a new report, but to indeed look at what has been established in past reports; what has been identified as priorities; what has been implemented; what has been not; and things that we need to move forward on, on any report that has been presented in the past, consolidate all of that information into a plan of short-, medium- and long-term goals.

P. DINN: I guess that's my point. What have we been doing all this time, if we have not been looking at those reports and pulling out what's useable there.

K. HOWELL: We have.

P. DINN: Because essentially what we've done is with the Education Accord, we're pulling together another mechanism or another report that's going to come out with, I guess, many of the same issues that have already been identified.

K. HOWELL: So some of the plans or the reports that have been brought forward to government in the last number of years have been actioned. The Education Action Plan that came out of the Premier's Task Force has a number of measures that were implemented and numerous items of various reports.

So to say that we haven't done any action on those would be a misstatement because there has been significant work on some of them. I think that's why, right now, it is important to know what was moved on.

Our responsive teaching and learning model was one of the things that came out of that. We recognize that there are challenges with that; it did not go as smoothly in some areas as we would have hoped. So it is important to look at what was not working, as well as just simply saying, well, this was recommended and we did it. What's the point of saying we did it if it was unsuccessful?

So that's where we are right now, is taking stock of the things that have been implemented, that have worked, those that maybe need some reediting and ensuring that we have the best product to move forward.

P. DINN: I can go on about this one, that's not where I want to start it, but I wanted to make that comment that we've had more than enough. I think the Child and Youth Advocate, when she put out a report on absenteeism in 2019 – I stand to be corrected – her quote was: We have enough reports already – essentially – when are we going to work on it?

But let me get back to the early childhood education. People have reached out to me, a number of people have reached out to me, parents, who have been having concerns with inclusive education and with after-school programming. They've indicated that they seem to be forced out of those spaces because we've made, I guess, the toddler or the infant spaces more lucrative for the operators.

So can you comment on that and what's being done to address that.

K. HOWELL: So that was a part of our Operating Grant Program review we identified there. We had different centres that were operating on different tiers. Some of them were providing inclusion services and some of them were not. But now, as we look at what has to be implemented, the expectation will be that all of our centres provide inclusion services and they will be funded accordingly.

Given consideration to the centres who are already in operation, ensuring that they don't cancel those spaces to move into the infant care space is again something else that would be part of the regulations moving forward.

P. DINN: So for those who currently have lost their spaces, and I've heard from some who, essentially, had to give up their jobs. Currently, there's no mechanism in place to ensure that persons losing their seat is not reinstated.

K. HOWELL: If there is a specific centre that you're speaking to, please let us know because we've been able to work very closely with our operators to find solutions for some of these issues.

I don't t know if there's something else that our ADM may be able to add to that, but I certainly do encourage you, if there's a specific centre that you're speaking of, then let us know because there might be a solution that we can offer.

P. DINN: I've reached out to your ADM and we've had a discussion and very good to deal with, no doubt. We do continue to get other examples of this coming forward. So it's not a one-off. There are some out there that are doing this on a regular basis and it's probably something that the sooner we get a policy or something in place to deal with this, the better because, as I said, there are individuals who are giving up their jobs as a result of this.

K. HOWELL: And there will certainly be expectations associated with our Operating Grant Program so if you're on the operating grant then there will be requirements. There are some centres that operate outside of our Operating Grant Program which don't have to report to the department as succinctly as those that are on.

P. DINN: I just want to continue with child care. There was a grant and bursaries offered, an allocation of $2.7 million to offer bursaries and grants for students completing post-secondary programs to become an early childhood educator. Do we know how many early childhood spaces are currently available?

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: We do know that all of our post-secondary seats are full. In terms of the number of ECEs attending: We have 361 who are currently attending Level 1 training. There are 328 who are currently attending the Level 2. We have 23 who are in our four-year program, which is really exciting, that's our new associate degree and then at another one of our post-secondary institutions, we also have an additional 62.

P. DINN: Perfect. Thank you.

I know I was reading some information that talked about child care deserts, one space per every three children or more. Do we know of any regions in the province that are really terrible or are in desperate need of help in those regards?

K. HOWELL: That is one of the objectives of our Early Learning Gateway and our portal is to capture the areas where the need may exist. So, again, I put the call out to any parents who find themselves in a position where they're waiting for child care to please get on to the portal and register.

That is the way that we can capture need and allocate resources and focus our attention in the areas that seem to have those – as you mentioned – regions where the need is greatest and where we may have to pay more special attention.

P. DINN: Yeah.

So I've gotten a good answer on the numbers involved. How many early childhood professionals do we currently have, that are registered in the system, or maybe registered and not in the system as well? Do we know that number?

K. HOWELL: I'll pass that to the ADM.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: We have 1,315, currently, right now in the system.

P. DINN: Do we know if they are currently working, all that 1,315?

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Yeah, we're active on the wage grid, so we are paying them on the wage grid, so that's how many are –

P. DINN: I know we talked earlier about bringing those who left the profession back in. Do we have any indication how many have left that are out there wanting to come back?

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Do you want me to answer that?

K. HOWELL: Yeah.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: Okay, yeah.

So we do have our Association for Early Childhood Educators tracking that, but that's been recent. So we don't have that actual data right now, but I can certainly get that for you.

P. DINN: Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you.

Quickly, how's the department working with the Indigenous communities to provide early childhood educators and those that are trained, culturally relevant education, to provide that?

K. HOWELL: I'll get the ADM to speak to that. I know she's quite passionate about that.

L. BAKER-WORTHMAN: So we are currently working with our Indigenous partners. We're doing a co-design of our Early Learning Action Plan. So we have regular connects with our partners to start that process. We have two people at our department who are working with our partners around that. We also have a number of supports that we do provide to our child care services, who are from Indigenous, and we're regularly ensuring that the staff operate in a culturally safe manner.

Some of the early consultations and the information that we received actually resulted in a shift in terms of our approach with respect to our legislation and regulations with those partners.

P. DINN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, the Member's time has expired.

The Member for St. John's Centre.

J. DINN: Thank you, Chair, I'll pick up where we left off.

Minister, I think you said that in 2004 you were more focused on your prom at that time. In 2004, I was teaching at Holy Heart, I was probably over halfway through my career and very much focused on making sure that the students in my class had the supports they need, met their requirements for their exams. I spent over half my career at that time teaching on the Southern Shore in small schools.

I say that because you've been in this job for 10 months now, and soon to be 12, that's a significant period of time. A lot of teachers have been in their career, either they're just starting off, they're getting close to retirement, or they're halfway through.

If anything else, if you've listened to the interview with Mike Walsh when he was on in December, if you've heard the stories that came out and if you got a fraction of the emails that I got from teachers, then you know that what teachers are looking for is some hope; something here to show that you're listening, that the department is listening, that they're not just simply looking at this through a budget-based lens.

I guess what's not being heard here is that. Because in the end it comes down to teachers wanting to have the resources to do their jobs. Now, I know primary and elementary school teachers will spend a significant portion of their own money on supplies for the classroom. I know that personally because my wife was a primary teacher and my daughter's a primary teacher, I know what they spend. They're very proud professionals, not only of their classroom, but of their students and want to see them do their best.

I think right now when I'm talking about recruitment and retention, it's not just a number to me. It comes down to: How do we make sure that good teachers stay in the field and how do we get good people who will do well in the classroom to come and stay? That's what we're looking for here, which is what I'm passionate about. I've been retired really since 2017, but I still identify as a teacher. It's about who I am. I wasn't a job to me; it was who I was.

So I think, if anything else, in any of the comments when we're talking about what we were doing 2004, there are a lot of teachers out there who just want hope. They hear the stories of, like I said, Mike Walsh who came out and they're nodding in agreement because that's the reality for a lot. I've seen pictures recently of schools in a primary class, of the damage that was done. I'm talking about desks thrown and going through walls and good teachers who are pushed to their limit.

I don't know if we can wait for another report to be finished. There are plenty. Like I said, the Dave Dibbon report, It's About Time!! , makes references to class size and composition. He had that lived experience. It references the prep time, it references the supervision, it talks about all of the – there are very practical things that would help the classroom. That is what we're looking at here, not another report.

I will tell you, if I were in the classroom, if I heard: Oh, we've got the Think Tank, the Task Force and the Education Accord, I know what I would be doing by now. Oh my God, here we go again, and tune out and go back to doing what I'm going to do and hope for the best.

One thing I brought up here in the House, and I guess I'm talking about downloading from other departments, half the time we'd be joking as teachers that sometimes there were students who were sentenced to school from the justice system and the school had very few resources in which to deal with it.

Recently, I referenced in Central Newfoundland, the fact that Central Health or the health authority there, had requested that teachers at schools, administrators and school counselors: Please don't send any more students for referrals, we've got a backlog here. Which means basically saying: You're on your own, it's your problem, deal with it.

I had another school counselor who was expected, more or less, to do the visual screening. We've seen, certainly over the years, I remember starting off, school nurses, public health nurses who would visit the school. They'd do everything from even checking for lice and so on and so forth. I remember you didn't see it so much in the high school by that time, but in the primary and elementary, their presence became less and less and the jobs they were responsible for were cut back. It meant that a lot of that fell to the school or they didn't have those supports.

Social workers: In many ways, when it comes to absenteeism, I don't know how the school is going to solve it because it's primarily a parent issue. If we want to talk about the collaboration, that really should be a responsibility of social workers, maybe CSSD, to talk to families in that way. The school can only enforce – there's another one – absenteeism, lateness. They're powerless to address it. It really needs to come from somewhere else.

In many cases, parents would get funding as long as the child was attending school, but, eventually, it didn't matter if they were attending every day, but did they show up once a month, or whatever else. You can sort of see, over the years, the requirements getting less and less and the demands on the school getting more and more.

Even with ISSP meetings, at one time, I would sit in on a few of those. Really, other agencies are supposed to be there, but primarily it would be teachers and not the other agencies, like Health. I would talk to school counsellors who I worked with, one said: It took me eight hours to log a time to set up a meeting with the Janeway at the time – eight hours to set it up. That's to call back and forth before they had a meeting.

So I guess here the question is: What steps will your department take to address this so Education is a partner in this but it doesn't fall solely on the responsibility of teachers?

I think you said at the beginning, Minister, this is not just about the classroom. So here's a real practical way: What discussions have you had? How are we going to work with the other departments to make sure that the child who's in front of me, who may be a client of CSSD, who may be involved with the justice system, has that true collaboration, if we believe it takes a village to raise a child?

A big question, you got a minute and a half.

K. HOWELL: Thank you.

It is, again, something that is going to require a collaborative effort, so the close intersection between the Department of Education, as well as Health, and Children, Seniors and Social Development. That's part of the conversation that was initiated when we looked at our Violence Prevention Initiative, but it certainly didn't just end in terms of violence.

It was a recognition amongst all departments that, as you said, there has to be a concerted effort on everybody's part to support our students, to support these children and to look at what are the extenuating factors that play into the demonstration of behaviours that we're seeing in our classrooms, the abilities to learn and what barriers there may be for our students.

One of the things that we're working on in our department is a means by which we can have that communication between departments. When you're dealing with some students,' some children, some families' person information, their health data, some of their social work connections or interactions, there are a lot of privacy discussions that have to be had and regulations that have to be established in terms of what can and cannot be shared.

That's kind of where we are at this stage, is figuring out, legally, what it is that can be shared in terms of a person's medical information between departments so that the educators in our classrooms do have access to that information, so they know if there's an issue in the home, then that's something that can be present in their dealings with our children and their responsive activities. Again, not leaving it solely to the teacher to identify these challenges and then report back.

So it's important that everybody has the access to the information, everybody knows the situations that are facing our children and our families and we can then have a collaborative effort on how we can approach that. It will, as you mentioned, include all different types of professionals working in tandem to make sure that these services are available for our children.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN: Thank you.

Quick question here – I thank my colleague for passing it along to me: Do we have specific numbers available for IRT teachers and the positive approach to student success to teachers?

K. HOWELL: Yes, we do.

We can dig through and find that information. If you'd like to move on to your next question, and we can get that for you.

P. DINN: Okay, I appreciate that.

It's been in the media a bit the last week or so, the concerns of MUNFA in relation to the search for a president. The chair of the committee has come back and offered some suggestions on that and talked about the process is working. There seems to be concerns around the openness or transparency of the process.

Now, given government gives an operating grant of about $370 million to the university, does the Education Minister have any concerns about this process and whether it's going to be open or transparent?

K. HOWELL: I would certainly defer to the folks at Memorial University who make those decisions, who have an understanding of what that process looks like in academia and the implications of open versus closed in terms of procuring appropriate candidates. We certainly wouldn't want to weed out some of the more qualified candidates based on whatever type of procedure was selected. So, again, as I said, the judgment of the university in their capacity to perform an open-versus-closed process is something that they would evaluate and whatever it is that they conclude, we would work with them to fulfill that.

P. DINN: So can I interpret that as you're having no concerns with the process?

K. HOWELL: No concerns with the process, right.

P. DINN: Okay.

K. HOWELL: And I don't think they have fully identified what their plan is at this point in time. I do have regular meetings with the current president, the acting president, right now. So if these issues come up, I certainly do have an avenue by which I can approach them because, as I said, we do have monthly meetings where we do accountability sessions to see where some of the challenges may be.

P. DINN: And I ask that because, in listening to the chair of the Presidential Search Committee in the media this past week, he actually indicated that, as a result of the process for the previous president, he felt they need to do a deeper dive.

So that gives me an indication that the process was flawed in some way, previously. I am just curious as to what they're doing and whether the minister has a handle on what they're doing to ensure what's happened in the past doesn't happen again.

K. HOWELL: Again, once they have a finalized process, I'm sure it will be something that comes up in our discussions with them monthly, with the chair of the Board of Regents as well as the president of the university.

When that is enacted, the Department of Education will be informed and we'll be able to work with them as we've done on a number of issues that have become highlighted to us in our department. If there's something that we don't think meets the standard or expectation that we would have set out, we have those discussions and move that forward.

P. DINN: Something near and dear to the post-secondary students – is government considering any tuition freeze for MUN?

K. HOWELL: Over the last number of years, we have identified that the tuition freeze that was implemented has been