LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 8 September, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AN D RECREATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee of Supply, please come to order. We have been considering the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. We are now on Item No. 2.(f)

(1) Historic Resources, Salaries; 2.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, although I'll wait I thin k until staff has had a ch ance to take their seats. Mr. Chairman, we learned, just as we broke at suppertime, that in fact $629,800 of this particular

section had been lost from the 1985-86 budget year to the 198 6-87 and it was explained that it went to such projects as the Dauphin CN stations and a number of other areas. My question to the Minister, however, with such a massive decrease, why was there no consideration given to cutting staff in this department when, in fact, it has the largest number of emplo yees second only to Provincial Archives and they, in fact, have a decimal eighteenth of a staff person more. It seems to me that if you cut over half-a-million dollars of service, one would wonder why you would require the same number of staff? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Hon ourable Minister of Culture. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Than k yo u, Mr. Chairperson. The numbers that the Member for River Heights is referring to doesn't really amount to a cut. As I indi cated earlier, these were one-time special projects that we felt warranted assistance in terms of whether it was in the case of a study or in the case of actual refurbishing. The staff that are a part of this branch are very important to the deliv ery of this important area of the department.

As the member may know, this branch deals with the whole area of leadership and support towards the und erstand in g and appreciat ion for Manitoba's heritage. Given our commitmen t to development and initiative in this area and given the task we set for ourselves with the proclamation of the new heritage legislation, the staff really have their hands full in terms of meeting those goals and objectives. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Well, I can understand where the grants are cut and where there would be no particular concern about staff there, but in fact, Salaries and Operating went from $416 .9 down to $329,900; some almost $85,000 less than that same staff had the year before in Salaries and Operating. Now the question 3660 must be; how can they function the same level of expertise that they have the year before with some $85,000 approximately cut from the monies received? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, could I take that as notice and come back to it at some point? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Charleswood. MR. J.

ERNST: Mr. Chairman, we're in His toric Resources if I'm not mistaken? I slipped out a minute or two early, so I didn't - okay.

On page 20 of the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation it indicates that under Historic Resources, Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, there is about half-a-million dol lars expended approximately on archeological surveys, excavations, publications, architectural history surveys, measured drawings, publications and things of that nature; things that I would presume would normally be part of the normal on goin g expenditur es of the Department of Hi storic Resources. Why are they contain ed in lottery funding as opposed to being in the Main Estimates of the department? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: My understanding is that these projects have always been funded through Lotteries; they would have been funded by Lotteries when members opposite were in government and the reason generally has been that at times they are by and large project oriented initiatives. Many of them carried out on a seasonal basis. There's nothing, no new transfer of monies here at all. MR. J. ERNST: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, the Minister's mike isn't working; I can't hear her response. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Okay, I'll start again. Mr.

Chairperson, my understandin g is that these initiatives have always been funded under Lotteries. They were funded under Lotteries when members opposite were in government , so there's been no change on the part of this administration to put those initiatives back under appropriation. In fact, many of these initiatives are seasonal in nature. They're project­ oriented. It probably is no contradiction to have this kind of project funded under Lotteries. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Can the Minister advise if these kinds of projects are on an ongoing basis?

Do they fund these kinds of projects every year? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I think it's fair to say that these are one-time only projects. Some may be funded on a multi-year basis, some only for a single year. In the case of excavations, we deal with those projects on a basis of urgency. It's impossible to provide the kind of funding that is required to carry out all the excavation work that has been identified .

Monday, 8 September, 1986 For example, this year, the only excavation project we are currently involved in is Lockport. It's a five-year project with three more years left to complete that excavation. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, then perhaps the Minister can advise whether indi vidual projects may change from time to time, but they would spend a similar amount of money on drawings and surveys and not necessarily on excavations but publications, which are items also contained in that

section of the report. Are those kinds of things done on an ongoing basis every year? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I'm just having a little di fficult y trying to figure out the Member for Charleswood's question. I thin k I've already answered the question pertaining to this being traditionally an item un de r Lotteries, funded by Lotteries, and I explained the rationale. It is clearly one of the projects that change on a regular basis, projects that have involved different levels of skills and talents over time. It seems emin ently sensible and reasonable to me that this kind of grant is provided th rough Lotteries.

Although I have committed myself to looking at ways in which we can rationalize the whole question of Lotteries funding, vis­ a-vis other gr oup activities and vis-a-vis the department's activities, I think there seems to be nothing untoward in terms of this way of doing things; and unless the member can be more specific, I'm not sure exactly what he's getting here. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister's been so busy worrying about what my last question is going to be that she forgot to answer the first one.

The question basically is: Is funding provided on an annual or an ongoing basis for similar type of programs - yes or no. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: As I already indicated to the mem ber, I said the answer was yes. I said the projects vary in terms of types of people required to do the jobs and di fferent stages of development. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may well have been anticipating the question I'm about to ask, and that's, why are programs that are on an ongoing regular type of basis hidden away under Lotteries funding, rather than being included in the Estimates of the department? Mr.

Chairman, I can understand the grants which can vary from time to time, that research grants, survey grants, whatever, commemo rative programs, those kinds of things, even the St. Norbert Heritage Park, Heritage Buildin g Grants, all of those kind of thin gs can vary from time to time; but when you have, virtually, departmental programs being run under Lotteries funding, it's actually being hidden from the Estimates, as it were. We don't know, for 1987, what's going to be included in that area because we won't know until the report at the Lotteries Foundation is produced in a year-and-a-half or two year's time.

My concern is, Mr. Chairman, as it has been throughout the full department and in the Department of Health, that if programs are going to be run, then the public ought to be able to pick up the Estimates of the department and see what that department is going to spend. They should not have to find out that there's another million dollars elsewhere that doesn't show up in the Estimates, and the Auditor agrees with me, Mr. Chairman. I tabled the letter with the Minister earlier that that's not a reasonable way to function, I don't think, and I would hope that some change in practice would take place in the future.

HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I guess we're going to have to have the same debate over and over again throughout Estimates. We had this three weeks ago, precisely the same question. I indicated at that time that nothing was being hidden away, that in fact we have provided detailed breakdowns of departmental programs by appropriation, by Lotteries.

I have indicated that I would certainly look very seriously into the recommendations made by several members opposite, including the Member for River Heights, for presenting the Estimates in a more detailed way, breaking items do wn by appropriation and Estimates, including administrative costs, including staff years.

I thin k the member is forgetting, that although he wasn't a part of the government when memb ers opposite were in government, they had no hesitation in moving mult icult ural grants, museum gran ts, historical society grants, into Lotteries, in full recognition of the fact that there was a growth in that area and the best way to meet increased demands and to be responsive in those areas was in fact to draw in on the Lotteries fund. Maybe the members opposite would like to give me their rationale for decisions made at that time. MR. J. ERNST: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not going to give the rationale for decisions taken by somebody else a long time ago. I don't object - and the Minister perhaps is misreading - I don't object to the fact that these grants come out of Lottery funding. What I object to is the way they are reported, the way they are brought forward, the way that they are accounted for. That's my concern and, again, I have brought it to the attention of the Minister earlier and in case she hasn't forgotten, or has forgotten, I have brought it to her attention again. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)(1)- pass; 2.(f)(2)-pass. 2.(g)

(1) Regional Services: Salaries; 2.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(g)

(3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Looking at the supplementary in formation , ther e is a de cr ease shown in Gr ant Assistance and it indicates that it's a discontinuan ce of a grant to the City of Winnipeg for recreation development and staff training. Was that at the request of the city, or what was the reason for that decrease? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: That decision basically reflects the governmen t's consolidation of support to the City of Winnipeg under Manitoba Urban Affairs.­ (lnterjection)- Sure. 3661

Monday, 8 September, 1986 The decision that the Member for Kirkfield Park refers to reflects the government's consolidation of support to the City of Winnipeg under Manitoba Urban Affairs. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I have the same di fficulty with Regional Services that I had earlier with Historic Resources. We have, in fact, increased the staff year by about three-quarters of a staffperson, . 7 4, but we have decreased their salaries in operating from 308,000 to 128,000, and I would ask the Minister to perhaps provide that information at the same time that she provided the earlier information. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I hope the Member for River Heights will permit us a little time to get back on both answers. I apologize. With respect to the question that the Member for River Heights asked pertaining to historical resources, there has been no change in terms of staff for that particular branch. The changes pertain to some grants that were one-time projects. There was an excavation project, a computer programming project, part of the Heri tage Awareness campaign at the time of the proclamation and they added up to $1 12, 000.00.

This was offset by a paymen t pertai ning to impact assessment, which resulted in a decrease of 87,000, but there was no change in SY's. Sorry, I referred to grants. Actually , they're payments. With respect to the question of a decrease in the Regional Services portion of the department's budget, there was a one-time grant for International Year of the Youth - obviously that is not carried forward - as well as some one-time core area activity projects. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (g)(1) - pass; 2. (g)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 2.(g)

(3) Grant Assistance-pass. 2.(h)

(1) Provincial Archives: Salaries, 2.(h)

(2) Other Expenditures, 2.(h)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would the Minister explain the increases in the Salaries and Other Expenditures, please? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The increase in terms of Salaries is attributable to 47.34 merit increments and other cost adjustments, and 77.4 for 3.5 additional SY's required to support freedom of information legislation.

The increase in Other Expend itures - I believe that was the second part of the question - is for associated prog ram costs rela tin g to the safekeeping of government docu ments; the acquisition of archival materials; protection and conservation of archival materials; and the support of an outreach program. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The increase that's provided for additional staffing and operating costs to support the freedom of information legislation, since the legislation hasn't been proclaimed as yet, what exactly is the staff doing? And when do we expect to have the freedom of information legislation proclaimed?

HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: As I indica ted in the House previously and as has the Attorney-General, steady progress is being made with respect to implementation and proclamation of The Freedom of Information Act. As I've also indicated , this is a very complex task. I'm sure the member is aware of this. The whole area of record management, record scheduling, identification and description of records, takes some time, particularly when record management has not always been a strong suit over the last couple of decades with any department.

The member may remember, going back to the year 1980, this problem was in fact brought to the attention of members opposite when they were in government. Since then, considerable steps have been taken to deal with the problem. A record centre has been established under this administration. A micrographics laboratory has been established.

Now the additio nal SY's, specifically in terms of freedom of information, are working to ensure that records are scheduled and an access guide is prepared so that users, and so that people seeking information through the provisions of The Freedom of Information Act, will be able to have ready access to the kind of information they're seeking. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I'm not just quite clear in my mind how this all works but, when someone wants a piece of information, they then write to the department and the Department of Cultural Affairs then finds the information from whatever department it is; is that what she's telling me? I'm really not clear in my mind exactly how this works. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, it's our intention to assist - and this is what we're curr ently working on - assisting each department to ready itself for the proclamation of Freedom of Information.

Staff within my dep artment are playing a coordin ating role, and a role in terms of expertise and advice about scheduling of records and describ ing records and so on. Equally important to all of this is the development of an access guide so that cross-referencing takes place between items, between departments, so that there is a quick and easy reference to the kind of information bein g requested. But in the final analy sis, each department must be ready to provide the kind of information that the member is referring to. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Has each department reached the stage of readiness or did the Minister mention how much longer she felt it would take? Is it going to be months or is it going to be years? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, as I've ind icated previously, The Freedom of In formation Act is somewhat unusual in the sense that it covers all departments, agencies and Crown corporations, so there's a wide range and volume of preparatory activity that is involved. Every department is at a di fferent stage of readiness.

Staff in my department are working very closely with each department and when we have an indication that all departments are in the final stages of preparedness, then a decision will be made about the proclamation. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I don't know if this is within the Minister's purview, Mr. Chairman, but I'm lookin g at a 3662

Monday, 8 September, 1986 press report about the "paper flow swamps Archives," and they're talking about the City Arch ives and it's provincial legislation that's requirin g them to keep over 22 million docu ments in storage for over the next 12 years. Even though it's all on microfilm, they are required to keep all records, accounts payable vouchers. It said Winnipeg Hydro cash stubs, Waterworks cash stubs, and tax records alone will add another 22 million.

Now they have indi cated that there's no thought to destroying crucial records such as tax records, but that many documents now retained for 12 years could safely be stored for six. Is there any movement on the part of the Minister to recommend to Cabinet that the city be allowed to have a change of legislation, that the province will bring in legislation to ease the paper flow? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, I thin k it first should be stated that the problems with respect to records keeping in the City of Winnipeg is not a result of any policy on the part of the Provincial Government.

In fact, the City of Winnipeg review committee has reviewed, among other things, this particular area and has made recommendations for an improved record system along the lin es of the system now in place in this government, which provides for a Provincial Documents Committee that can judge on a case-by-case basis what records should be retained. If docum ents are microfilmed and certified, then it's my understanding that there is no necessity or rationale for maintaining the original documents. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Possibly the Minister hasn't seen the press report, but they are indicating that they need to ask the Provincial Government, the city officials, to amend The City of Winnipeg Act so that the city has more latitude in deciding what to put into storage. Possibly the Minister could have her staff look into that, Mr. Chairman, and see if there's anything, because they are indicating that the city is goin g to have to start spending approximately $17, 000 a year on storage space, if they run out of space, and they're feeling that legislation could alleviate it. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr.

Chairperson, if I understand the member correctly, she's suggesting that through amendmen t to The City of Winnipeg Act, this problem might be alleviated. I'll certainly look into the matter, first of all with staff, and di scuss it with colleagues. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. certainly can understand, having seen some pictur es of our government records, why freedom of information is not as accessi ble as we would like it to be. However, I am concerned about the legislation which governs provincial arch ives generally in Manitoba.

Is the legislation which we're workin g under at the present time - which happens to be quite old - adequate to in fact meet the needs for proper evolution of archives, as someone who is a history buff would like them to evolve? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you very much, to the Member for River Heights, for that question. By and large, the act that the member refers to, The Legislative Library Act,

Part 2, is, in our opinion, a good piece of legislation. In fact, in its day - it actually dates back to 18 87 - it was known to be probably the best piece of legislation in Canada at that time, and it seems to be standing the test of time quite well. There are some revisions that are needed but staff have informed me that they are generally minor revisions in that they are not absolutely basic to the issues at hand. We will be looking at making those amendments, but in terms of the broad parameters of the legislation, I don't think we foresee many changes in that regard. Sorry, I said 1987; I meant 19 67. MRS.

S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister: In the Oral History Grants, it's a relatively new concept or an old concept made new once again. Is this perceived to be a one-time grant or will Oral History Grants become, hopefully , part and parcel of the evolution of our archival materials? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: It's our hope that there will be a significant amount of interest and uptake with respect to the Oral History Grants Program.

It's actually a very exciting area and many groups have started to express interest in it, and as we put more and more commu nica tion out on this matter, that interest continues to increase. So it would be hard to answer the question directly in the sense that we're hoping that it will be so successful that we'll continue it year after year after year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(h) (1)- pass; 2.(h)

(2) Othe r Expenditures-pass; 2.(h)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- pass. 2.(j)

(1) Legislative Library: Salaries; 2.(j)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister could indicate what her policy is towards the keepin g of the Legislative Library open for the general public. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: We've been over the last number of years working to ensure that the policy of full access to the public contin ues and I'm certainly committed to ensuring that policy is maintained . MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there is a significant backlog of binding in the department of Legislative Library due to some internal budgetary rest raints, I gat her.

They are up to, I thin k now, somewhere in the area of two years behind in terms of binding, etc. Can the Minister advise if some addit ional fundin g can be found to keep that up-to-date? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I can indicate to the Member for Charleswood that yes, there is a backlog, but it's certainly not unmanageable at this time and we are working to repriorize within the department to deal with the situation. The library, by tradition, collects, preserves and provides access to books and serials published in Manitoba and relating to the province's heritage.

So it's a very important activity and certainly one that we will try to keep on top of. 3663

Monday, 8 September, 1986 MR. J. ERNST: I understand, Mr. Chairman, not only is it behind some two years in binding but th at acquisition budgets have been cut back and the library is not being able to function in the way that it perhaps should. Has the Minister given any considera tion, or have any members of the government given consideration, to taking the Legislative Library out of the Department of Culture, Recreation and Heritage and putting it under the Legislative Assembly Management Commission?

It seems to me that Legislative Libraries across Canada, by and large, are part and parcel of bodies similar to the Leg islative Assembly Management Commission so that they are taken out of the hands of line departments of the government which have to suffer the vagaries of budgets and their priorities, etc. of Goverments of the Day, and put it on a more stable footing under the Legislative Assembly where it is in fact a servant to all mem bers of the Legisla tiv e Assembly.

By putting it under the LAMC, they are then taking it away from, say, the line department aspect of it and putting it under the jurisdiction of all members of the House so they can deal with it, and if certain budgets are lesser or greater, or whatever is required, then it takes it out of the realm of politics, shall we say, and puts it into the realm of the Legislative Assembly and the way it manages its own affairs. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I think there is no question that this institution, this library, is feeling the squeeze in terms of the financial situation like our many other institutions in this countr y. However, we're satisfied at the present time that there is an adequate acquisition policy to meet the needs of the public, the government and the legislators. We're not at this point considering moving the library out of the department and to operate as a separate entity for a couple of reasons.

Most importantly, this Legislative Library has a uniqueness that is quite distinc t from any other Legislative Libraries across the countr y. In addition to servicing the members of the Legislative Assembly, it also has a signific ant heritage component, and it is open to the public at large for research and for access to the kind of heritage materials I referred to. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(j)

(1) Legislative Library: Salaries­ pass; 2.(j)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pa ss. 2.(

k) Manitoba lntercultural Council - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, does the Manitoba lntercultural Council act as an umbrella group, that it gives grants out to other cultural organizations? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, the Manitoba lntercultural Council was one of the organizations designated as an umbrella group under the umbrella system for the distribution of lotteries money. The distribution is carried out by the Community Resources Allocation Committee of MIC. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many members of the lntercultural Council are appointed by the government, Mr. Chairman? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: One member is appointed by me, the Minister responsible for each two members elected under three clauses: one which ind icates a member elected by each registered ethnocultural group; a second category is a member elected by the registered associations of ethnocultural groups in each of the Southeast, Interlake, North Central, South Central, Southwest Parkland and North regions; and the third criteria being one member elected by registered organiza tions composed of and serving several ethnocultural groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(

k) Manitoba lntercultural Council­ pass. 2.(m)

(1) Manitoba Film Classification Board: Salaries, 2.(m)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: There was an Order-in-Council - I had my hand on it a minute ago - was it the Film Classification Board? Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I was just wondering how many women are on that board, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: There are 9 women from a board of 20. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just one more to go, Mr. Chairman. Would the Minister indic ate at what stage the Film Classification is with regard to the - what am I thinking of - tapes? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Negotiations are currently in progress to establish an interprovincial agreement allowing the Provi nc es of Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan to establish mechanisms whereby home­ use video produc t can be jointly and cooperatively classified. The purpose of the agreement would be to facilitate the eventual establishment of a national system of home-use video produc t classification. It's our belief that the agreement would result in dimi nished costs to the industry and the consumer and that the proposed system would ensure that the consumer has easy access to reliable information.

So we're working quit e actively to reach this agreement with the other two provinc es and we're confident that such an agreement can be reached and we're very hopeful in terms of the positive benefits of such an agreement. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there any video classification going on now or is Manitoba waiting for this particular agreement? And while I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, under Other Expenditur es it's down $80,000.00. I was wondering if the Minister could explain that. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: With respect to the first question, the Film Classification Board is doing some review of videos in anticipation of an agreement being reac hed, but are not actually in the process of classification. With respect to the question about decreases in Other Expenditures - I believe that was the question - the 3664

Monday, 8 September, 1986 decrease of $80,000 includes a reduction of $60,000 for non -recurring costs for equipment acquisitions and a transfer of $20,000 to Appropriation 14 , 2.(m)(1), to cover the salary costs of the additional term SY required to handle the video tape classification backlog. The decrease in revenue is due to delays in the introd uc tion of changes for the classification of home­ use video tapes which are, as I've indicated, to be introduc ed in cooperation with the Provinces of Ontario and Saskatchewan. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

What exactly is included in Personnel Services which would warrant their de crease by $12 2,200.00? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The main reason for the reduction is that we're currently not spending anything in terms of fees for the classification of video tapes until the agreement with Ontario and Saskatchewan is reached. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Just to cl arify - so in fact it's not really Personnel Services, it's more fees for service for a particular type of classification. Is that correct? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, it's fees for the board members. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(m)

(1) Manitoba Film Classification Board: Salaries-pa ss; 2.(m)

(2) Other Expenditures­ pass. Resolution No. 42: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15 ,585,900 for Culture, Heritage and Recreation for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87-pa ss. Item No. 3.(a)

(1) Communi cation Services, Executi ve Admini stration: Salaries, 3.(a)

(2) Other Expendi tures - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Have there been any changes in this area at all, Mr. Chairman? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: If the Member for Kirkfield Park is asking about changes ju st in Executive Admi nistration, the answer is no. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)

(1) Executive Admi nistration: Salaries-pa ss; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass. 3.(b)

(1) Client Support Services: Salaries; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(b)

(3) Public Sector Advertising; 3.(b)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wond er, unde r thi s appropriation, if the Minister, Mr. Chairman, could explain the rise in the Other Expendi tures. I see here that Supplies and Services are up 11 5,600. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: In addition to increases as a result of increased costs pertaining to telephone and other communi cation expenses, there has been a major increase required for ongoing costs of media market research and computer analysis to improve advertising effectiveness and also for the development of a computeri zed administrative system. MRS. G. HAMMOND: This service is for all departments, is it, Mr. Chairman? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In the media market research, is this the area that the departments would tag on some political questions? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: First, I should clarify that there are no political tag-ons to any research. There is no political research going on by any departments. This branch of this particular area in my department is involved in tendering for creat ive services for advertising agencies. It's involved in media planning and placement of all advertising for departments. It provides advice to departments about marketing strategies and the most effective use of their dollar for commun icating to the public about their particular programs. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I usually try to avoid cynici sm.

However, it's hard to be a little non­ cynical when one sees that the advertising dollar for the year ending March 31, 1986 was $2.9 million but this year it will be $2.3 million, some $636,400 less; and, coincidental ly, we've just had a provincial election. Have the depa rtments decided th at it is less necessary throughout government to tell everyone how wonderful the government is this particular year? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I understand the Member for River Heights' cynicism. However, I can assure her in this case that there are very good reasons for the reduction in the advertising budget.

Let me ind icate first off that one of the reasons a reduction has been possible in this area is that we have continued to place a great deal of emphasis on the targeting of messages through communi ty relations and public relations activity and more cost-effective media placements. I should also point there has been revised formats for the Civil Service legal and tender notices and meeting announc ements. As well, we've seen reductions in requirements for Manitoba Jobs Fund and Limestone Generating Station advertising.

To elaborate a bit on the reasons for those areas, it should be noted that through the advertising programs for the Jobs Fund, significant em pl oyment and economic development opportunities resulted as a result of the private sector becoming aware of the opportunities that were available to them. In fact, we can now look back and acknowledge the fact that some 16 ,000 person years of employment and $276 million public and private investment resulted from the Jobs Fund Program and there's a very clear connection between the success of that program and the final outcome.

With respect to the decrease in the budget for Limestone adverti sing, let me point out that that advertising was originally intended to make Manitoba businesses aware of business opportunities and to 3665

Monday, 8 September, 1986 inform Manitobans generally of the economic benefits of Limestone. We're certainly meeting our commitment of having 80 percent of Limestone activity produc ed in Manitoba, and we know for a fact that Manitoba businesses are participating and benefiting. Now that we are into the construction stages, the need to advertise these opportunities is reduced as inte rested and eligible businesses have been identified.

So I think what the Member for River Heights is seeing through this Estimate process is a cost-effective system in place and a well-t argeted and focused system for ensuring that the messages reached the people who are likely to most benefit and have the most bang for the buck, as the phrase goes. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Does the Min ister - and it may be unfair, because I realize this is recoverable from all other departments - have any idea of a distribution as to how much goes into public service announcement advertising, and I'm talking about a wife abuse-type advertisement as opposed to Jobs Fund or Limestone, which I would call job creation form of advertisement, or is there no such breakdown available, and I wouldn't be surprised. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: It would be hard to give the member a precise breakdown along those lines, and one could even dispute how one defines service oriented or job oriented.

I can point out that a number of significant programs have been unde rtaken that really I think would fit into the category of providing a service, as the member describes it, to Manitobans. Three such programs either in the works or being advertised now or in the planning stages include the Plus 55 Program that has been talked about in other forums and the Buy Manitoba Program, which is in the planning stages, and in creased advertising involving Travel Manitoba. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Just one final question and again it may not be within the purview of the Minister.

It seems to me that we sometimes place advertising which is directed towards a certain group, that we target the huge group in order to attract a very small group. One has to wonder if a di rect mail program would not be more effective to meet those particular individuals than a television advertising program, which everyone from ages three years to 95 might see when in fact you're trying to get a target group, let's say, for example, of farmers and encouraging them to buy more crop ins uranc e.

Is there any analysis going on in her department to look at that kind of media activity, and whether it is warranted or not warranted? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: As I ind icated earlier, some of the reduction in the advertising budget has actually been a result of inc reased emphasis on the targeting of messages through community relations or public relations, and by that we mean direct mail, mobile displays, other forms of getting the message to targeted audiences.

General ly, in terms of that kind of issue, that kind of matter pertaining to the target audienc e is taken into consideration whenever a rec ommendation is made in terms of a media placement buy. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister advise what the 10 staff people spent $7, 100 on transport for? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Basically, that increase is attributable to an increase in courier costs, the costs in volved in couriering information and materials between government departments, between depa rtments and the media outlets, between departments and the creative agencies. Generally, it's that kind of an area. I should point out that these costs are recoverable because we are providing a service on behalf of all departments. MR. J. ERNST: You say, Mr. Chairman, that their costs are recoverable, although it's still the taxpayers' dollar no matter what department it comes from, so I had some concern.

Included in that amount of money, is there any travel associated and I'm talking about executive travel, that type of thing in that budget? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The answer is no. MR. J. ERNST: A couple of further questions, Mr. Chairman. With respect to the Communic ation budget that has doubled approximately and the furnishings and equipment account that has gone from zero to $70,000, can we have an explanation for that? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I believe I've already answered this question and ind icated that item is for the purc hase of computer hardware, media planning and analysis hardware, and billing and track ing hardware to be purchased by the end of the fiscal year. MR. J. ERNST: The question was two-folded, Mr. Chairman. The first part was the Communic ation budget which has doubled, which the Minister didn't respond to. I appreciate, if that question - I thought it had been contained in the one prior, Supplies and Services, where it's gone from 11 ,000 to 11 5,000. Perhaps she could respond then what that in crease is for. HON.

J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The inc rease in Communication is basically inc reased telephone costs, and one of the reasons for that is that the whole work in the area of print tendering requires use of the telephone system. The increase under Supplies and Services is primarily for the computer hardware that I just mentioned. Sorry, Mr. Chairman, let me start all over again. The increase under Supplies and Services is, as I ind icated earlier, a result of increases in the area of media market research, including consulting services and systems development. The increase of $70,000 is the computer expenditure. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1), Client Support Services: Salaries- pass; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; 3.(b)

(3) Public Sector Advert ising- pass; 3.(b)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- pass. 3.(c)

(1) Communications Advisory Services: Salaries; 3.(c )

(2) Other Expenditur es; 3.(c )

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In the Communic ations Advisory Services, are these all the communications people that 3666

Monday, 8 September, 1986 are in the government that are located under this appropria tion, or are th ese in addition to com munic ations people that are in each of the departments. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, the short answer to the member's qu est ion is no, each department is responsible for staffing in terms of commu nic ation and media specialists and whatever kind of communi cation personnel they require. This branch basically works to provide a consulting service to assist in the development of user organization communication plans.

It makes recommendations pertaining to making or buying decisions for creative production services, it provides assistance for monitoring and updating the visual identity program. It provides general design assistance and support which ensures that certain standards are met and it provides the kind of central control that is so necessary for effective project coordination where several branches of the division or outside suppliers are needed to fulfil one project. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, in the supp lement ary information that the Minister was referring to, it said that decreases in other expend itures and in recoveries relate to the est ablishment of this branc h as a consultative service rather than as an art and design production service. Who is now doing the art and design production services? Is this being farmed out? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, that service is no w bein g provide d by private sector suppliers. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Does the Minister have the cost of those services anywhere? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr.

Chairperson, it would be difficult to give the kind of information that the Member for Charleswood is asking for since every project varies. If the member would like, I could provide a list of all the private sector suppliers that I referred to earlier or I could read a sampling of them. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If the Minister would like to supply a copy, that would be sufficient. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, I'd be happy to table this. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c )(1) - the Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This department has gone down rather dr amatically in recoverables because, as we've just said, they are now providing a consultative service rather than art and design production service. Has the actual ind ivid uals fulfilling the staff years also changed in the same way, since one would assume that production staff people would be di fferent than consultative staff people. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, first of all I could indic ate that there has been two fewer artists on staff as a result of this change in mandate.

The staff that used to do art and design work are now receiving on-the-job training to become creative and marketing consultants. As well, I think it should be pointed out that there has been an inc rease in demands for this kind of service from departments and agencies and Crown corporations. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman, I still have some di fficulty however with the staff increase of one in a department which has gone from production work to consultative work when I know, for a fact, that art and design production work takes many hours of creative end eavour and one wonders why you need the same number of people when you are presumably now taking the work they used to do and giving it into the private sector at obviously some additional and considerable cost. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr.

Chairperson, to answer the first part of the question which was the increase in the one SY, that was basically an in crease to provide for administrative support. I go back to my earlier answer to respond to the Member for River Height's question, and that is that there has been a tremend ous in crease in de mands pl aced on this branch for consulting services. In fact there are more than 700 requests a month coming into this branch, which is one-third more than this branch was receiving a year ago. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman, I can 't say that I'm entirely happy with the situation in which a budget in the previous allotment has gone down by $636,400, which is I think an indic ation that there's less public sector advertising going on and then I find that there is an increase in the kinds of services which are designed to provide consulta tion on the kind of advertising which we've paid for out of the previous budgeting. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, in actual fact this branch of the department does not merely work on the area of public advertising. It's in addition to providing advice with respect to advertising.

It advises on brochures, displays, audio-visual material, flyers, etc. As well, it's responsible for the implementation of the new Visual Identity Program which requires a considerable amount of work and staff time. I think it might be useful if I pointed out some of the main functions of the staff in this area to give a better indic ation of what they do. Basically, the service or the branch divides into three areas, Audio-Visual, Design Advisory and Visual Id entity, and there are three consultants in the Audio-Visual

Section which handle all government creative requests involving film, audio, audio-visual coordination, creative photography for display, advertising and publication, slide -sound video tapes, script writing, radio and TV. There are six consultants plus an administrative support person handling all creative requests involving desig n, editing, copywr iting, illu stration, displa y, typesetting, paste-up, design marketing coord ination, and each of the six consultants handles requests from a group of client departments acting as an account executive for each of these departments. 3667

Monday, 8 September, 1986 Fina l ly, the visual identi ty program coordinator monitors and updates all aspects of the implementation and coo rdi nation of the Visual Id enti ty Program througho ut gov ernme nt and that coord ina tor is responsible for design and establishment of standard formats, and providing production and procedure guidelines for each phase of the program. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I stand to be corrected and I may well be confused , but it would seem to me that (

c) is the creative arm of (b). Is that not correct? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperso n, the Member for River Heights is correct in stating that one is a creative arm of the other. That would be true in the case of advertising. But there are a whole series of other activities in the - what do you call it again - Advisory Services Branch; and there are a whole lot of other activities that are a part of the Client Support Services Branch. I've only mentioned the media planning and placement.

There is also the whole administrative procedures that are required for the tendering, for the printing allocation, for departments, for the payment and recovery of media placement charges, for the recording of communication invoic es, and so on and so forth. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.( c)( 1) - pass; 3.( c)(2 )- pass; 3.(cX3)-pa ss. 3.(dX1) Public Information Services: Salaries; 3.(dX2) Other Expenditures. 3.(d X1)- pass; 3.(dX2)- pass. 3.(e)

(1) Queen 's Printer: Salaries; 3.(e)

(2) Other Expenditur es; 3.(eX3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I'm interested in this area, to find out why the, actually, massive amounts of money in Other Expen ditur es for suppl ies and services, for one; and maybe if the Minister would just go down the line of Other Expenditures and give us an idea of what has been happening with the Queen 's Printer with the increase in costs and expenditures. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr.

Chairperson, this categor y, this line provides for the general admin istration of Queen's Printer operations and costs associated with the purchase, storage and distribution of stationery and photographic supplies and statutory public ations, equipment rentals and mainten ance, operating supplies and computer utilization. The net increase can be attributed to the increased volume for 19 86-87 and a 5 percent incr ease in prices.

Another portion is a result of in creased federal sales tax; another cost is a result of in creased printing costs for statutory public ations, due in part to the bilingual pub lic ation requir ements; and there was also a significant sum required for additional equipment. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister could indic ate, with the increases, has this come about with the use in each department of the comput er, the word processing in all the departments, through the supply and services? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS : The answer to the member's question is no.

In fact, the whole question of technology and how print-plant operations should respond to that new technology is being studied at this very time. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure we've all had our horror stories since we came here on the 18 th of March. Mine, unfortunately, happens to be with the Queen 's Printer who, first of all, did my business cards with the wrong phone num ber because they apparently didn't realize I was entitled to a 945 number and then proceeded to take six weeks to produc e my stationery, but perhaps the most amusing factor was trying to locate where the stationery was.

Ten phone calls and five-and-a-half weeks later, we at least discovered where it was and managed to obtain it some time later. All joking aside, I think the sad part of it was that at the same time I was also having "Leader" stationery produc ed which the party was paying for and I managed to turn that around in seven days with approximately the same kind of quality of print and paper, and the cost was one-third of what I ended up paying to the Queen's Printer. Now I have to question whether we are in fact doing the right things with the materials that we are sending out via the Queen 's Printer. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I should first ind ic ate to the Member for River Heights that I have my own horror story with my department, and that was just after being sworn in as Minister, Information Services, the branch that we just skipped over, turned my age 34 into 43. With respect to the concerns you've raised and, most particularly, the question of cost and the savings that you were able to make by going outside of Queen 's Printer, we'll cert ainly follow that up and investigate it thoroughly and I will get back to the Member for River Heights as soon as I have a report.

We'll also try to get a handle on some of the other problems and horror stories that the member has brought to our attention. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I should point out that rather than waste - I believe in waste not, want not - my secretary whited out all the 7's and put in the 5. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)

(1) Queen's Printer: Salaries­ pass; 3.(eX2) Other Expenditures-pass; 3.(e)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pa ss. 3.(fX1) Translation Services: Salaries; 3.(fX2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, possibly, the Minister could explain, in the Annual Report under Translation Services, it says "During the past year services were requested as follows," and then there is a blank unless it's the next pages they are talking about. I wonder if she could explain what the services that were requested are. HON. J. WASVLYCIA-LEIS: I think we have something else to blame Queen 's Printer. Oh, this was an outside printer, sorry.

Actual ly, the num bers that are at the top of the page should have been at the bottom of the page. Basically, the short answer to the member's question is that we have had 1, 500 requests for 10 ,400 pages of translation. 3668

Monday, 8 September, 1986 MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister could clarify the function of the Translation Services. For example, what type of translations do they do? Is it for Hansard, legislation? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: This translation unit is quite separate from the legal translation unit that is a part of the Department of the Attorne y-General. The translation of this branch is general in nature. It provides translation and int erpreta tion services to all departments, Crown corporations and agencies as well as to the courts and the Legislative Assembly.

The kind of requests could be any nu mber of things and I have indic ated already the volume of requests we're getting. This bureau, I should indic ate, in addition to providing French translation, also provides translation services in I believe 25 other languages. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would it be possible to have an organization chart of this department and how many staff in the classification of the staff, like how many TR3's, TR2's, TR1 's? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I could certainly provide the member with a more detailed organizational chart ind icating the various classifications.

Basically, though, I can indic ate now that in addition to the director, Andr e Martin, who I should introd uce to you now, there is an administrative officer, an admin istrative secretary, 3 word processors, 7 translators in the French section, 2 translators in the English

section and 2 translators in the

interpretation section. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I had asked if the Minister could tell me how many would be TR3. Was that the indic ation you gave, TR2's and TR1 's, and also if it's possible to have a copy of the budget for the Translation Services? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: There are 6 TR3's, 2 TR1' s and 3 TR2's. With respect to the request for the budget of this branch, I will certainly provide that for the member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many TR2's? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Three TR2's. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister ind icate how many positions for TR3's were budgeted for at the end of January, '86? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The answer, Mr. Chairperson, is three. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The position that was bulletined in January, to close February 10, how many positions were vacant at that time? Were there the three and how many were to be filled by the bulletined ad? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I'd like to correct the previous answer that I just gave to the mem ber. It was not three; it should have been six TR3's. As of January, 1986, there were two vacant TR3's out of the six and one was bulletined. MRS. G. HAMMOND: There was a written examination that was required by all applicants, Mr. Chairman.

How many wrote the exam and on what date? I wonder if the Minister could ind icate on what date the position was filled. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thirty-three indi viduals wrote the exam in May. I'm sorry, I don't have the precise date in May but I can certainly get that for the member. The position was not filled and is being rebulletined for September 22, 19 86. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I missed the Minister's answer when the position was filled. You said you didn't have that answer? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: No, the answer I cou ldn't provide was the exact day in May when these 33 indi viduals wrote the exam. The position was not filled. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Minister is ind icating that this position has not been filled and that was for the bulletined position in January. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have six TR3's; three TR2's; and one TR1. Can the Minister explain why we seem to be so top-heavy with TR3's? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: First, I should indic ate that the TR3 position is qualified not only in terms of translation but also, in terms of revision and in terms of the kind of requests that this branch is getting from other departments and other agencies and Crown corporations, it was generally felt that kind of expertise was required. I should also point out that of the six TR3's, three are

section heads and have additional administrative responsibilities and, in particular, I should mention, have responsibility for quality control. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell me, what is the expected productivity of the various levels, the TR3, the TR2, and TR1? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Basically, TR1's have to be able to translate at lease 600 words per day, depending on subject matter. TR2's have to be able to translate at least 800 words per day; and the TR3's have to be able to translate at least 1, 000 words per day, as well as provide the expertise required for revision and quality control. MRS.

S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister explain why the qualification for TR3's, 2's, 1' s, at the federal level seem to be so much higher than the same qualifications for the TR3's, 2's, 1's provinci ally. I understand that it is a federal requirement for a TR2 to translate about 1,5 00, as opposed to 800 in the Provinc e of Manitoba. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I think we're dealing with two different classifi ca tio n systems when we 're comparing the Federal and Provincial Governments. In fact, it's my understanding that the Federal Government has a classification that has six levels for translators. 3669

Monday, 8 September, 1986 I don't think there's any indic ation that our productivity is not as high, if not higher, than the Federal Translation Services. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Is the staff requirment large enough at the present time, in the translation office, in order to meet the demands; and corresponding with that, have the demands been gradually getting greater and greater? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, the Member for River Heights is quite correct in hypothesizing that demands are inc reasing.

We have seen a fairly steady in crease in demands on this branch over the last couple of years; and as a result of that are reviewing the resource level allocated to this branch and will make any necessary changes. One of the ways that we are attempting to deal with the situation is - and you may have noticed this under Other Expenditur es - an item allocated for outside translation contracted during heavy workload periods for complex and specialized assignments and for other languages. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The work of translating for the type of work that translators would have to do here is very precise.

Is there any ongoing development of courses for potential employees of this department, through our un iversities in Manitoba? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: There is a program at St. Boniface College. It offers and a three and four-year program and graduates are just starting to come out of that program and apply for jobs with this branch. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister, Mr. Chairman, could tell me if there are any staff who are hired on contract. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: There are some 40 free lanc ers who provide services in the 25 languages that I indic ated, as well as the French language. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Are there any translators on loan from the Federal Government? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, the answer is no. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)( 1) Translation Servic es: Salaries-pass; 3.(f)

(2) Other Expend itures-pa ss. Resolution No. 43: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,036,3 00 for Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion, Commun ication Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 19 87- pass. Item No. 4.(a)

(1) Status of Women, Advisory Council on the Status of Women: Salaries; 4. (a)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indic ate what the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, what they are working on in the coming year? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, I have a statement that I would like to read for the start of this section, and I have copies here for tabling. Mr. Chairperson, I am pleased to introduc e the 19 86- 87 Estimates of rrw portfolio as Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

The Status of Women portfolio provides esential support to this government's polic ies for advancing the Status of Women in Manitoba and works toward the equality of women and men. The two cen tral vehicles for this significant thrust are the Women's uirectora te and the Manitoba Advisory Council on the ::>tatus of Women. Their di stinc t yet complimenta ry roles are an excellent example of how this government is working within the province for the advancement of women.

The Women's Dir ectorate is that part of the government which works to coord inate, initiate and communic ate programs and policies related to the Status of Women. The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women is an arm's-length body responsible for providing to our government, issue­ focussed advice which is based on in dependen t research and consultations with the communi ty.

The Status of Women portfolio serves over half of Manitoba's population, but the issues involved are ones that affect us all: violenc e against women; lack of quality child care; financial and social pressures on single parent women; the multiple jeopardy situations faced by immigrant women, by native and visible minority women, and by disabled women; all are issues that have serious and wide-ranging effects on our society as a whole. Women's contribution to our economy is only now beginning to be acknowledged.

Women are entering the paid labour force in in creasing numbers and current estimates are, that by the turn of the century 75 percent of all women will be in the labour force, a figure which will be roughly equal to the projected numbers for men. Given this trend, concerted efforts are required to ensure that women do not continue to be concentrated in a few low-paying occupations or to bear the major brunt of poverty. Manitoba has actually pushed for, and inde ed often taken the lead in strategies and polic ies to achieve economic equality for women.

We have worked on many fronts to improve the quali ty, quantity and acces sibil ity of child care in Manitoba. The pay equity process for the public sector is well under way and will result in significant benefits to women in the lowest paid occupational levels. Affirmative Action Programs will help ensure that women move out of job ghettos and achieve fair representation at all levels of the labour force.

Manito ba's programs in wife abuse and family violence have involved commun ity-based networks and professionals in the prevention and amelioration of this very serious problem: improvements to pension plan requirements; job creation and training programs; and family law provisions are all concrete evidence of this government 's commitment to improving the status of women. Mr. Chairperson, the achievement of equality between women and men requires action, not only by this government but by the federal and mu nicipa l go vernments as well.

We will continue to seek cooperative action between the public and private sectors for creative and workable solutions to the deep­ rooted problems facing many women. This cooperation must be done in close consultation with women's organizations and individual women who 3670

Monday, 8 September, 1986 have been and will continue to be, an important source of advice and challenge to this government and the main forc e behind society's changing attitudes. The activities of the Status of Women portfolio cross all polic y areas affecting women in both paid and unpaid sectors, young and elderly women, and women living in rural. Northern, and urban areas of the province. I'd now like to briefly review both sections of my portfolio, outlining their activities, their cooperative initiatives, and their developing capacity to plan and assist the government to respond to women's concerns.

With respect to the Women's Directorate, having undergone a change in mandate from the direct career counselling orientation of the former Women's Bureau to the polic y coordination of the present Women's Directorate, the directorate is emerging as having an essential planning goal. In the past year, the directorate has been inv olved with issues such as wife abuse, pay equity, small business, labour force strategy, education, economic secur ity, child care, family law, and economic development .

Close consultations are actively pursued with Manitoba women's organi zations to ensur e effective integration of their concerns in the polic y development proc ess. In provid ing progra m and pol ic y advice, the dir ectorate works closely with other government departments and has been responsible for coordinating a number of inter-departmental committe es. Most notable among these has been an inter-departmental committee working to develop a comprehensive labour force strategy.

Manitoba's position is th at a comprehensive labour force strategy which includes support programs and pre-employment services is not only of vital importanc e provincially but it is also a national imperative and staff at the di rectorate have played, and will continue to play, a major role on the federal-provincial working group preparing such a strategy.

Manitoba's efforts in this area over the past several years. particularly as a result of the work of the Minister of Community Services, have been instrumental in ensuring that women's economic equality is a major agenda item at the next First Ministers' confer enc e scheduled for November, 19 86. The directorate has played a similar role around the issue of Native women and economic development. In consultation with a number of provincial departments, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and Native women themselves, we outlined a series of recommendations to overcome present inequities.

As a resu lt, Manitoba will chair a fed eral-pr ovinc ial territorial working group to develop a strategy for responding to these comprehensive recommendations. Manitoba will also continue to press for a national day care and family services support act and for shared funding responsibility for services to victims of wife abuse. One of my first act ivities as the new Mini ster responsible for the Status of Women was to attend a workshop hosted by the ad hoe committee for the end of the U.N.

Decade for Women, where my colleague, the Minister of Community Services, spoke on the importance of the July, 19 85 Nairobi Conference, which she attended. At the ad hoe committ ee workshop in Winnipeg, we presented the Manitoba Government's response to the forward -looking strategies accord signed at that significant world event. Manitoba has been the only government in Canada to formulate such a response and we were able to highlight significant gains in every area pertaining to provincial jurisdiction which had been identified for action by the international document.

The budget for the Women's Directorate remains basically the same as the'85-86 budget, the $1 ,500 increase being primarily an increase in salaries to cover cost-of-l iving. Our commitment in the next year continues to be working toward equa li ty for women and men in Manitoba and we believe that the directorate's initiatives illustrate this government's commitment for achieving this goal. The Advisory Council on the Status of Women has also played a major role in improving the status of women in Manitoba.

We are proud of its record in producing sound research and providing excellent advic e that has demonstr ated a forward-looking, in novative and analytical perspective. Through the di versity of expertise and community involvement of its 16 council members appointed from throughout the province, the Advisory Council alerts go vernment to emerging issues and the prior ity concerns of Manitoba women. The advisory council generates discussion and documentation on crucial, contemporary issues. Its report on the problem of inc est made 41 recommendations, many of which have already been implemented.

The council has recommenmded several initiatives in the area of wife abuse and assisted the government in the implementation of rec ommenda tions. The results have been the development of a stable funding policy for crisis services in the province; the establishment of an internal responsi bility centre to co ordina te govern ment's response; development of post-crisis stage support services; court advocates; counselling program for victims; treatment programs for offenders; and second-stage housing. The advice of the council, Mr.

Chairperson. has been particularly invaluable to this government in the move toward implementation of pay equity in the public sector. In the upcoming year, the advisory council intends to release a study on women and employment; a report on the career and family aspirations of young women; an analysis of the perinatal health care delivery system's ability to response to the needs of women; and a report on the concerns of women in Northern Manitoba.

In order that the council can adequately carry out its mandate and complete these and other initiatives, the number of staff years for '86-87 has been increased from 2.5 to 4 and this in crease is seen as enhancing the council's ability to fulfil its provinc e-wide mandate. In the past, the cou ncil's work has been seriously imp eded by the lack of a bud get with whic h to communi cate with women outside of Winnipeg and the in crease of 24,0 00 in operating expenditures will, hopefully, begin to correct this inadequ cy. Mr.

Chairp erson, these two bodies reflec t this govern ment's co mmitment to working toward the equality of men and women in this province. This government's initiatives in pay equity, provisions for inc reased child care spaces, the comprehensive network of services for battered women , and in creased 3671

Monday, 8 September, 1986 ed uca ti onal op portunities for women are clear ind ic ations of our com mitment to work with all Manitobans in achieving this equality. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I wonder , does the Minister have both someone from the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and the Women's Directorate at the table at this time? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I have with me the direc tor of the Women's Directorate, Doris Mae Oulton.

It has not been our custom to bring in representatives of advisory councils; however, if the member wishes, I'm sure the Executive Director of the Advisory Council is present and we'd certainly invite her down if there's no opposition. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, it's not necess ary. My questions, some of them, I'm not too sure, probably are more directed to the Women's Directorate. I was wondering if the di rectorate is still putting out a newsletter. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The Women's Directorate has a regular newsletter entitled, "About Women ." One is currently at the printer and should be out within the next few weeks. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister would see that the women members in the Legislature receive a copy -(Interjection)- the Member for River Heights says all members and that's probably a better idea, but assuredly the women members. I would like to know the Minister's position, and I'm not just sure where this comes, on the pension for homemakers under the Canada Pension Plan. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: The Minister responsible for the Status of Women previous to me had conducted some very thorough consultations with women's groups throughout the province, and we are now in the process of taking that advice and sharing it with colleagu es and staff in the Government of Manitoba. An in terdepartmental staff committee has been established to, first of all, deal with the Federal Minister Jake Epp's proposal in this area and to come up with a comprephensive approach to the issue of inadequate pensions for women in the paid labour force and in the unpaid labour force.

Our concern is that we should not be focusing only on women in the upaid labour force, that there are many women who are at the bottom end of the scale in terms of working wages who are equally denied access to an adequate and decent pension in their old age. MRS. G. HAMMOND: During the course of the Session there has been a number of issues that have been raised in the House and one cert ainly was the MTX and the discrimina tion against women working in Saudi Arabia other than as nurses and teachers.

Could the Minister indic ate, since that has become known, what recommendations the direc torate and the Minister has made to the Cabinet? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Let me deal with the specific questions first and then address the broader question being raised by the Member for Kirkfield Park. 3672 On the two areas mentioned, MPIC and MTX, I can indic ate to the member that the staff at the Women's Directorate have been very quick to respond to issues raised in those areas.

They have provided me and my colleagu es with a detailed analysis of the disability benefits for homemakers under MPIC and have pointed out that although there are currently still di screpancies in the system, in fact, we are probably, with the exception of Quebec, the only provinc e in Canada to provide the kind of assistance, the benefits, to homemakers anywhere in this countr y.

With respect to the MTX issue, I can say for a fact that it was as a result of the active stand taken by the Manitoba Advi sory Council on the Status of Women, coupled with follow-up action by staff at the Women's Directorate and meetings with me and several of my colleagu es, that the issue was clearly outlined and provided the basis for action that was forthcoming with respect to legislation to deal with the general situation of contracts with business interests outside the country. I was quite pleased to see the Advi sory Council come forward so early with a strong statement.

I think it helped all of us to recogniz e the issue that was involved in the whole area and to act quickly and responsibly. With respect to the general question that the member is raising, and that is the whole area of the Women's Directorate monitoring of Crown corporations, I think I need to indic ate, as I've already given some very concrete examples, that the Directorate is working with a very small staff with many departments and is beginning to develop some strong links and working relationships with Crown corporations.

It shou ld be remem bered that the branc h is a relatively new one, really only coming into effect in January 1984, and -llas put in pla ce a very good plan for dealing with the broad range of issues that we are facing on a daily basis; the questions pertaining to discrimination in any aspect of our society, questions pertaining to dec ent pensions for women in all stages, in all life situations.

That strategy is to develop a comprehensive labour force strategy, something that we've been trying to get the Federal Government and other Provinc ial Governments to do for a long time, I must say, without too much success yet.

In fact, the latest discussions with Federal and Provincial Ministers on the Status of Women have produced a fairly narrow focus with respect to equality for women and that being specifically the training issue, a very important issue; but it's very di fficult to deal with women's inequality without looking at support services at the one end, education impact on young girls, and security in old age. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Minister has ind icated that the Directorate has a very small staff and obviously is working under a hardship.

I would think that if the government was really sincere in helping women that the staff would be increased to a level that all legislation, and when they are making major changes that concern women, that the Directorate is advised and that there is someone in place to deal with these matters, because other than that, Mr. Chairman, I see it as a very hit and miss operation. The Minister was referring to the homemaker grant, actually, when a homemaker sustains bodily injury. Now

Monday, 8 September, 1986 we may be the only province or we may be giving the most money to women, but when we have a corporation that is sitting with a large surplus and then they bring in something like this for a housewif e who is inc apacitated, I find it very hard to rationalize that when they were going to bring in something that would deal with the issue, considering the type of surplus that this corporation has, if they are not going to give some of it back to the taxpayer, then why not use it to the best purpose and give something that is meaningful.

Maybe there doesn't need to be a specific amount, or the specific amount can be the base, but there has to be provision for other services besides. I find it very hard to say, oh well, we're great because at least we're doing something. I don't think that's good enough when the money is there. I am not asking for extra funds, although that's something that I wouldn't hesitate to. I am not in favour of looking for extra monies, but the money is sitting there in this particular corporation and it's sitting there as a surplus, and I can 't think of a better place for it to be used than in this case.

I can't see that there is going to be thousands of people in this situation, but I believe that the Minister should be prevailing on her caucus members and the Cabinet to do something about that and in the next Session, hopeful ly, that amount will be raised to something that will actually deal with the problem of a woman who is put into this type of a position. Another question to do with MPIC, and I haven't brought this issue up before, Mr. Chairman, but it's to do with the secretary that was fired, to do with Mr. Laufer's area. I don't believe she was his secret ary.

But this was a woman, and I am just taking from what I read out of the newspaper, that has done, as far as I can see, when it comes to doing anything wrong in her job, it doesn't seem to have been, and yet we have three vice-pres idents who were under the shadow, they've hung unto their jobs, and yet we have a woman who, by innuendo, and unl ess the Minister can tell me anything di fferent, has been fired from her job, not given an opportunity, at least that I know of, to have been transferred.

It doesn't matter to me very much what her lifestyle is or what has been suggested that her salary was in creased by great amounts. Actua lly, that was refuted in press releases. I would ask the Minister if she would consult with the Minister responsible for MPIC to look into the firing of that secretary and see if this was a legitimate firing or if this is someone that has been made a scapegoat. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Maybe I'll work backwards and start by responding to the Member for Kirkfield Park's last request, which was looking into the MPIC situation with respect to an individual who was fired.

I'll cert ainly look into it. I think the Minister responsible for MPIC has ensured that a thorough investigation of the situation was done, and on the basis of evidence submi tted to him, the board and the Mini ster responsible made some decisions. However, I will seek a further explanation from the Minister responsible and get back to the member. The Member for Kirkfield Park has also addressed the general issue of MPIC and the disability benefits for homemakers. Let me reiterate what I said earlier.

Although there is still a disc repanc y between homemakers and those in the paid labour force, a significant jump occurred in the benefit paid to persons not in the labour force, which includes homemakers as well as retirees, unemployed, students, etc. A very significant jump was made in the actual benefit and a significant jump was made in terms of the number of weeks in terms of eligibili ty. In fact, prior to this change, homemakers were only eligible for 20 weeks

whereas now they are entitled to 104 weeks. As I said earlier, after Quebec, we are certainly a leader in the country in this area and we will continue to try to make improvements in this area, but I stress, certain ly, tho se kind s of figures indic ate a major improvement and a major commitment on behalf of women in this provinc e. Now the Member for Kirkfield Park also suggested that there should be more staff years and a bigger budget provided for the Status of Women area. I certainly have no problems with that suggestion.

It's a result of a commitment on the part of this government to make Status of Women issues a priority that has resulted in the kind of Women's Directorate that we now have in plac e. That commitment first translated into a major change in focus and structure of the Women's Directorate.

The member will recall the pre-1984 days when the major service in plac e was basicall y a women's counselling service, a very important service, but a service that had been identified as being filled or met in other areas throughout society, particularly as groups like the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre mobilized and particularly in the face of some federal assistance at least up until the current situation for Women 's Outreach services.

So what we have seen in the space of two short years has been a major overhauling of a branch of government to make it a coordinated, sophisticated policy analysis group, and I am very pleased at the calibre of people we have been able to attract to the Directorate and I am very impressed with the level of material that has been coming forward. Certainly, we will continue to try to increase resources in this area. As the member notices, we have done so in the area of the Advisory Council for the Status of Women and we will continue to find ways to increase resources.

However, members opposite know we are in financially difficult times, these are not easy times, and it is very hard to make the kind of leaps and bounds that the members opposite keep suggesting. Just in my Estim ates alone, I have heard requests for in creases to the Brandon Arts Council, to the Association of Manitoba Arts Councils, to the Boys and Girls Club, to the Austin Museum, to the Girl Guides, to the public library system, to medic al research, and I'm sure that there are a few I've missed.

I mean I would certainly be prepared if the members would like to take back all their requests in all of those areas and will jointly work on ways we could fund the Women's Directorate. I would certainly appreciate that kind of cooperative action. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the Minister has got a giant slush fund in the 3673

Monday, 8 September, 1986 Lotteries money which could be well used for some of these areas. I am not going to suggest that there isn't money available in her department for some of those things because there always seems to be money for anything that crops up. So I won't take that as something that we should not be asking for increases for certain areas that are needed. But I'd like to just carry on in another area that is still outstanding as far as I'm concerned, and certainly the Manitoba Women's Institute, is the home economists.

I have the press release that the Minister of Agricult ure put out on June 27, 19 86, to say that they would be keeping the home economists.

The only problem is that the nutritionists aren't included in this grouping; and it seems a shame because of an error that was made in the first place by the Minister of Health in disb anding this gr oup, that when the government proceeded to put it back together they left two of the most important areas, two of the most important people out of the whole grouping and it doesn't seem to make much sense to have kept those positions, every one of them, and yet have separated two of the components, being nutritionists.

Now I know that the Minister was a part of looking into this when they were deciding what to do, whether to put it back. My own feeling is, that the government realized they had made an error right the minute it happened and just to save face they dallied around and tried to find some way that they could come up and make it look di fferent, but try and keep it the same.

But what they have done is just partially kept the group together and I think that I agree with the Women's Institute, who have said that they are pleased to have the home economists, at least in the Department of Agriculture, but that they feel that the nutritionists should be a part of the group.

I want to quote out of their brief to the First Minister, that "also important is the need to maintain the Directorate" - and I know the Directorate is not a word that's been used, it hasn't been called a Directorate for a couple of years but I'm going to continu e to use the word - "as a unified integ ral hole with the nutrition specialist part of the Directorate and reporting to the Director of Home Economics. "We emphasize this because our concern is for the maintenance of a comprehensive Home Economics Program for the contin ued provision of services to all Manitoba.

This includes the Directorate being physically housed together with all specialists reporting to the director. It's difficult enough to establish provincial priorities based on the needs of two departments when all specialists report to one direc tor. "It is our opinion that the Department of Health has not, and will not give the necessary commitment to maintain the wide spectrum in nutrition, that a home economics' orientation provides. The field of nutrition goes far beyond the narrow medi cal and disease mandate of health and is the vital plank in any home economics program." I won't go on.

It do es go further to say that nutritionists are home economists and I would ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman, to try and get this whole group back together again, the way they should be. It doesn't matter very much if they're in Health or if they're in Agriculture. But just to save face and keep part of it together and leave the other two out of it, makes no sense at all and I think the Minister would recognize that; that these home economists should all be together and they should be performing the same service that they did before which was a good service. Nothing but praise came from this.

You could tell when the government got into a flap because they realized that something wrong had happened to the Department of Health when they disbanded this. I implore the Minister, because it'�c ertainly not going to cost anymore money, those positions are there to transfer to see if they can't get those two positions transferred into the Department of Agricultu re and have this group all back together again. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr.

Chairperson, actually I think it's the Member for Kirkfield Park who is trying to save face, having raised this issue several months ago, only to find that this government was out consulting actively with those concerned and made some very constru ctive recommendations and changes to the program. I think it needs to be pointed out that, yes, nutritionists are home economists but they are an important part of a coord inated health initiative and play a very important role in that department.

We are working very hard to ensure that there are close links between the nutritionists and the Department of Health and the home economists staff that has been transferred to the Department of Agriculture. And I believe that system is being put in pl ace and there is every indic ation that it will work well.

Let me say, finally, that what is most important throughout this whole issue is the indic ation that the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Community Services and the Premier and I gave to the groups ·c oncerned, and that was that we have to not only deal with some of the issues that the home econom ists have been dealing with over the last several decades, but we have to equip our home economists to deal with current issues dealing with the crisis on the family farm.

We've got to start being able to meet the needs related to farm bankruptcy, the farm family crisis and financial stress; and I'm pleased to report that the Chief Provincia l Home Economist is undertaking this kind of needs assessment; that the Minister of Agriculture is committed to ensuring that those needs are addressed and that we are moving into a new di rection and meeting new needs of a very great proportion. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman, I really find it almost offensive that the Minister would be suggesting that the home economists out in the rural area would not have been aware of these problems and been dealing with them all along. Surely the Minister is not trying to tell this House that those problems started this year. They have been going on . for a nu mber of years and the home economists have been dealing with them.

And to suggest that this is a new direction and a new program is utterly nonsense and I won't listen to it for a minute, at least I won't believe it for a minute, and I think she's doing a great di sservice to the people in the field, to suggest that they won't have been dealing with families who have been in bankruptcy situations, that they won't have been dealing with people who have had hardships. It was this government who cut back the CRISP Program so that 1, 200 farm families were cut out 3674

Monday, 8 September, 1986 complet ely from getting that kind of help and it's the home economists who were in there probably trying to help them out. So don't hand me that. I don't believe it for a minute and that's carrying things all together too far. I would suggest that the Minister take a good look at the nutritionists and forget about thinking that this is something new because it isn't anything new. They've been dealing with this for years .

And I hope that she is not suggesting that farm bankruptcies and that the family farm unit have just come into trouble in 1986 because, believe me, they've been in trouble ever since this government has been in office and things have not helped . At least this government has not helped the family farm. So I would suggest that the Minister take another look and see exactly what the home economists have been doing because they've been doing exactly that in the field . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr.

Chairperson, when the Member for Kirkfield Park reads the transcripts for this Session , she will see that I certainly did not indicate that home economists have not been dealing with the issues pertaining to the crisis of the famil y farm. What I clearly indicated was that as the crisis grows, it becomes clearly necessary to identify new solutions to deal with those kinds of problems, and we have committed ourselves to a needs assessment in the field in rural Manitoba among farm women , among rural women , to determine how best to allocate resources.

The chief provinc ial home economist and the other staff involved , I believe, feel that is necessary, feel it would be important to carry out this kind of need s assessment, so that we can begin to perhaps target the kinds of services that can be provided , focus the informational brochures that go out, cater to particular needs as they emerge . I think that's a very useful contribution to make and I'm confident that links with the nutritionists will continue so that this balanced approach can be provided. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I find it somewhat ironic that the Official Opposition some 10 days ago asked for an adjournment of debate on a farm bill because there wasn't anybody in the House, and yet we sit here this evening debating the Status of Women and the Adviso ry Council on Women and our numbers are, to put it mildly , somewhat reduced, particularly in the male variety, and I thank those individuals of that species who decided to bear with us. A MEMBER: A dying race. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Not fast enough . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: -(Interjection)- I meant in the House .

Hopefully, and in very short order, there will be more of this species here . Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister, however , about the status of the Women 's Studies Program at the University of Manitoba and any intercession that she may have made to the faculty involv ed . 3675 It is my understanding that because of public pressure some of the courses , indeed , have been restored but the director of the Women 's Studies Program is still not back in place and that our funding from the Federal Government may therefore be in considerable jeopardy . HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: It's our understanding that the director , Michelle Pujol , is back in place as the coordinator of the Women 's Studies Program . However , we recognize that the cutbacks at the university are still serious and will have long-term negative effects on women . I've been working with the Minister of Education to try to keep this issue in the forefront in terms of discussions with the university, and we would certainly like to see the university adopt an affirmative action position and that that be tied to funding in the future, particularly our involvement in funding of the Women's chair. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister at this time confirm that the coord inator 's actually being paid to be the coo rdinator or whether she's just holding the titl e? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I'll have to check my facts on this , but it 's my understanding that the coordinator of the Women 's Studies Program never received an additional salary for doing that job in addition to her salary as a professor at the university. However, I will check into that and determine if there has been a change in remunera tion. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman , in times of budget constraints , I rea lize that it is difficult to find money , particularly in any larg e amounts , and becaus e the budgets are small to begin with , percentages perhaps don 't recognize the work that is done , but the Status of Women as a group received 15 percent and I'd like to thank the Minister for her efforts in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1)- pass; 4.(a)(2)-pass . 4.(b)

(1) Women 's Directorate: Salaries; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, there was just one question . I notice under the Women 's Directorate , and I'm not sure if the Minister dealt with it in her introduction , that there is a reduction of $2,000 in Other Expenditures for the Women 's Directorate. Can the Minister explain that reduct ion? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: In actual fact, if we compare the budget'85-86 with the actual'85-8 6 and the budget of '86-87, what we have is a fairly major increase to the Women's Dir ectorate budget .

The increase was initially a resu lt of the fact that Manitoba hosted the Ministers responsible for the Status of Women Federa l-Provincial Territorial Annual Meeting and , fortunately , the base has been maintained at that level with the exception of a $2,000 decrease. That decrease is basically a result of some unallocated monies. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)( 1) Women's Directorate : Salaries - pass; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass.

Monday, 8 September, 1986 Resolution No. 44: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $582,800 for Culture, Heritage and Recreation, Status of Women, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987- pass. Item 5.(

a) Telecommunications Policy: Salaries­ pass; 5.(

b) Other Expenditures-pass. 5.(

c) Grant Assistance - the Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: On a question under Grant Assistance, the O/ C 757 . . . grant to Mikisew Broadcasting Corporation for $65,000; I think the total amount allocated is something in the area of $12 6,000 for the year. Can the Minister advise us what this broadcasting corporation does and what the grant money is for? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Minister. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The Mikisew Broadcasting Corporation receives a grant in'8 5-86 of $12 6.8 thousand dollars.

Mikisew has recently been established as a sister corporation of Native Communications Inc. (NCI) to produce cultural programming. NCI has been receiving funds from the Government of Manitoba for this purpose for more than 10 years. The level of this grant is calculated on the basis of past contributions. Mikisew currently produces 10 hours per week of Native television and radio programming out of Thompson, and assists in the operation of Native communi ty radio stations in Norway House and Cross Lake. Mikisew's total projected core budget for 19 86-87 is $1.1 million.

The province's grant provides 12 percent of the total, and 50 percent of the total budget is dedica ted to salary-related expenses. The grant supports the overall operations of Mikisew and the development of media service for Native audiences in Northern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 45: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $295, 10 0 for Cultur e, He ritage and Recrea tion, Telecommun ications Polic y, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87 -p ass. Back to the Minister's Salary, Item No. 1. (a). Resolution No. 41. The Member for Charleswood. MR. J.

ERNST: Mr. Chairman, in light of the Minister's temporary - can't say missing from the Chamber but A MEMBER: She'll be back. MR. J. ERNST: I appreciate that, and I'm willing to say we have a short recess, Mr. Chairman. (Recess) MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to ask the Minister for her statement about the Lotteries policy. HON. J. WASYLYCIA -LEIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I have a very brief statement. In November of 19 83, the Government of Manitoba articulated three goals it wanted to reach in the operation of the gaming ind ustry in Manitoba.

These goals were: ( 1) to provide for fair play and accountability in the operation of lottery games in Manitoba; (2) to maximize profits from lottery schemes through the efficient operations of games; and (3) to provide for a fair and equitable distribution of lottery revenues throughout the province. The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation was the agency appointed by the province to man age the affairs of the lottery busine ss in Manitoba, such that these objectives would be met. The 1985-86 fiscal year proved to be a resounding financial success for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation.

Through the distribution of lottery tickets and break­ open tickets, the operation of three bingo halls and the operation of casinos in various parts of the province, over 46.7 million was generated for distribution to community groups in Manitoba. This represents an increase of over 30 percent in net proceeds from gaming operations and clearly is addressing the problems identified in the gaming indus try in 19 82 and 1983.

Through direct operation and involvement in gaming activities, the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation has been able to maximize proceeds from gaming operations for ultimate distribution through the umbrella group system. A review of the umbrella system for funds di stribution by Mr. Al Miller and a subsequent report by the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Board to myself identified that the umbrella system was viewed as the appropriate system for distributing revenue into the commu nity.

A variety of recommendations were made in the report to assist in the structuring of the system, some of which will be implemented by the government. The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation continued to work cooperatively with the provincial marketing organizations in Saskatchewan and Al berta in the operation of the Western Canada Lottery Foundation. The sale of lottery tickets continued to incr ease rapidly as new games continued to attract the lottery buyer.

The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation generated over $4 million from the operation of three bingo halls in 1985-86, a result of a significant reduction in operating costs in the halls. In December of 19 85, the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation discontinued operation at Windfall Bingo at 1015 McPhillips Street after failing to receive an operational variance from the City of Winnipeg. In 19 85-86, the Manitoba Lotteries Founda tion operated casinos in Winnipeg, as well as in 24 communi ties outside of the City of Winn ipeg .

Completion of the permanent facility in the Winnip eg Convention Centre has provided a top-level casino facility in Winnipeg. Unfortunately, facilities outside of Winnipeg are generally not conducive to the secure operation of casino events, and has led the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation to look for alternate ways of allowing groups in these communities to generate revenue for their projects. Admin istratively, the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation has stabilized its operation, incurring a modest 4 percent incr ease in administrative expenses from the previous year's operations.

Figures for the 19 86-87 year show a continu ed in crease in sales wh ich will see a corre sponding increase in revenues available to worthwhile commu nity programs. The province is comm itted to the operation of the gaming system which is open, efficient and accountable, and is constantly monitoring the operations of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation to ensure that this happens. 3676

Monday, 8 September, 1986 Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, and I thank the Minister for her comments with regard to the operations of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. While we appreciate the benevolence of the Minister in permitting discussion of lotteries under the question of her salary, I want to make the point and put on the record once again the fact that the discussions of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation ought to be before a standing committee of the House, rather than under this process.

The Minister has indicated that she has taken that previous questioning under advisement and hopes to perhaps do that with the coming of another Session. I sincerely hope that she is able to do that , because I think that's probably the proper forum to deal with this question. Mr. Chairman, lotteries have had significant and continuous growth over the past number of years, notably between'85 and '86, a growth between $35.5 million and $46.7 million of net profits. That's a significant amount of money that 's available for worthwhile programs in the Province of Manitoba .

I suspect that, from discussions that I've had with other people, there is still room for continued growth in the field of lotteries . There is still room to see that profit base expanded . But eventually, Mr. Chairman, that's going to reach a plateau . It cannot go on forever. With a serious downturn in the economy , there may well be a serious downturn in lottery revenues as well. To think that's not going to happen and we're going to enjoy the kind of growth that we 've experienced over the past number of years, in leaps and bounds each year into the future, I think is perhaps a little bit too optimistic. Mr.

Chairman, I think that perhaps the Minister and the government ought to consider the question of whether or not those kinds of increases are going to continue, whether the benefiting organizations can continue to anticipate the kind of growth in revenues that they 've had over the past several years, particularly the umbrella groups, that they don't come to expect on an annual basis, that kind of growth because I think it would be unfair to them to say that yes, you can anticipate and build into your budgets and build into your programs, 15, 20, 30 percent growth factors over the next period of time . Mr.

Chairman, I don't think that's going to continue for very long. As a result , I think it would be wise if some of the monies presently collected and on deposit , shall we say, with the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, could conceivably create a Heritage Fund dealing with lotterie s money. Certainly the Heritage Fund that we've created for Hydro revenues won't see a dime until at least 1993 and very little after that, I suspect, for some considerable length of time . But the opportun ity exists here , Mr. Chairman . There are significant funds on deposit now.

The Minister has indicated that there is a program under consideration to spend those accumulated profits but, Mr. Chairman, I think maybe they might want to rethink that in terms of a Heritage Fund for the beneficiaries of lotteries at the present time. There are significant funds in the equalization fund, in the special fund; the TCI will be grandfathered out as another $1 million of annual revenue after next year, so that those kinds of things are available to put monies into a Heritage Fund.

If those funds were put into an interest-bearing account, or interest-bearing investments for a 10-year period without being touched, consider the kind of capital sum that would be available for the ongoing funding of groups presently benefiting from lotteries . The anticipated growth for the next few years likely can accommodate the needs and desires of those groups and that the funds, say $1 0 million or so, placed into a Heritage-type fund, Mr.

Chairman, could well generate a capital sum a few years down the road that would more than offset any losses or any reduced income which might result from either a plateau or a downturn in the economy. So I offer those comm ent s to the Minister . I suggest she give that some consideration and that she discuss that with perhaps the benefiting groups that benefit from lottery revenues , because I think they want to - I would think at least - that they would want to look at their long-term future. They would want to ensure that they would have funding available to them in the future and perhaps, Mr.

Chairman , to secure their place , shall we say, in the lottery system. Someday, Mr. Chairman, there may be a government to come along that will say perhaps we should take the moni es that are being generated by lotteries and place them in the general account. That may well come along at some point in time, Mr. Chairman, and to secure the position of those groups who are benefiting now, perhaps that lottery heritage fund that I talked about a minute ago , may well serve some benefit in securing their plac e in the system of being funded. So with those few remarks , Mr. Chairman, I'll leave that with you.

Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min iste r. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you , M r. Chairperson. I'm having a hard time reconciling this latest suggestion from the Member for Charleswood with suggestions previously from himself and other members of his caucus. Just today , the Member for Charleswood suggested I dip into this big lotteries pot and give some more assistance to the Winnipeg Public Libr ary. Also today the Member for Kirkfield Park suggested we use lotteries revenue to support greater women 's programs , not a bad suggestion .

During the Estimates of the Minister responsible for the Sports Directorate , the Member for Pembina said th at we shou ld put more of this lotteries dollar into medical research. Today no one said it wasn 't a bad idea to put lotteries money into a community capital facilities program. I don't see how we can accommodate all tho se suggestions from the membe rs opposite, in addition to the needs , the crying needs that we, on this side of the Hou se, are hearing every day with a sugg estion for a heritage fund or an endowment fund.

We are faced with many, many needs and I think the only responsibl e course of action for any government would be to meet those needs by making use of this exponential growth in lotteries revenue. 3677

Monday, 8 September, 1986 That's what the umbrella groups are saying. They're not necessarily saying put this mone y in to an endowment fund. They're saying we need more to meet the needs of our client groups, of our constituent groups. The needs are growing in the ethno-cultural communit y. My department's program can't keep up with the demand. The Manitoba ln tercultural Council's Program can't keep up with the demand. I think it makes eminent sense to try to deal with some of those needs that are before us as a result of years of neglect, years of neglect when members opposite were in government.

Certainly we have to be working closely with the um brella gr oups and encouraging them, not necessarily to become totally reliant and dependent upon the funds, but I think our best advice would be to say, make the best use possible of available lottery funds and ensure a fair and equitable basis throughout the Province of Manitoba. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, it's very nice to hear the pl atitudes from the Minister from the bench opposite, the question of the crying needs of this organization or that group and so on. But, Mr.

Chairman, sitting in trust accounts in the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation and the department, with the Minister of Finance, there are millions and millions of dollars sitting there, doing nothing except collecting interest. So the question of crying needs and having to meet the ne eds and having these funds available, Mr. Chairman, the money is sitting there. The money has not been spent. The money has been accumulated and earning interest. It's not that the well is dry at all, Mr. Chairman, so I can't accept the comments of the Minister with respect to the fact that the cup board is bare.

The situation is there's all kinds of money sitting in those accounts, squirreled away, sitting on deposit, either with the Minister of Finance or through the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation and other accounts. There are special funds, equalization funds, there are funds on deposit with the Minister, millions of dollars, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, I forgot to introduce staff present before I started my remarks. I'd like to introduce Garth Manness who is the General Manager of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, and Peter Hack, who is the Director of Audit and Administration.

Let me indicate to the Member for Charleswood that it's just utter nonsense to suggest that there are millions of doll ars being stashed away in all corners of this government that are unaccounted for and hidden away, as if there was some conspi racy involved. As I' ve ind ic ated earlier to the Member for Charleswood, we have made as our first priority, a Community Capital Facilities Program. That is clearly an investment in the future, an investment in building community assets, an investment that will be with us always, I think a far more valuable use of the money than an endowment fund at this point in time.

I have said that in order to put together this Community Capital Facilities Program, we will be looking at the four sources of available funds. There is the unallocated portion in my department, the Department 3678 of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. There is the unallocated portion in the Sports Directorate and that was discussed during the Minister of Health's Estimates, and there is the Equalization Fund and the special 6/ 49 fund.

We will first be looking at those four sources, only for options available to us in terms of surplus funds and putting in place a decent, reasonable capital communi ty facilities program and from there, making decisions about other needs that need to be met in the Province of Manitoba. MR. J. ERNST: Mr.

Chairman, so that the record clearly shows that nobody suggested that there were unaccounted for funds or funds that were hidden, all I suggested was, that there were ample funds available, either on deposit with the corporation or on deposit with the Minister of Finance; and certain ly, I didn't for a minute suggest that those funds were being hidden. Be that as it may, Mr. Chairman, perhaps we can proceed through the report rather than fight back and forth across the Chamber for the rest of the evening. If I can, Mr.

Chairman, dealing with the role of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation on Page 7 of the report, the role as I unde rstand it of the Corporation is as operators and regulators of the gaming process in Manitoba. Do they have controls or inspectors, much like the Liquor Commission does, in terms of going out and spot checking events that take place? Casinos I appreciate, are being run certainly in the city at least, by MLF staff, but with respect to rural situations, lottery ticket sellers and things of that nature? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I see the Member for Charleswood is back on his favorite topic about SWAT teams and bingo cops and candy from babies and bingo police. I tried to di spel these silly ideas previously, but I guess I'll have to try again. I've ind icated to the Member for Charleswood that there is no force of security officers and police that run out all over the province checking up on organizations and groups. I can outline the provisions, the responsibilities of staff under the security and licensing

section of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. Basically, the licensing

section is responsible for receiving applications from organizations wanting to operate lottery schemes, reviewing the applications to determine eligibi lity and rec ommending acceptance or rejection to the board and issue the licence. The investigative

section is responsible to inspect the operation of lic ensed lottery activities to ensure they are operated in compliance with the terms and conditions of operation. This

section is also responsible for completing investigations into activities which the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation has received complaints on, exactly the kind of situation that we've dealt with earlier in this House. Final ly, the two ot her sections - the property management

section is responsible for the operation of all Manitoba Lotteries Foundation properties; and the security management

section is responsible for the security of all Manitoba Lotteries Foundation assets, both physical and human. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, while we're on the question of licensing, I asked a question in question

Monday, 8 September, 1986 period some time ago to which I received a negative response with regard to the question of an increase in the licence fees of some 400 percent. The Minister responded that that was not the case. I understand, subsequently, that perhaps either I didn't phrase the question correctly or didn't reach the correct

section of that depar tment, Mr. Chairman. But I und erstand that the fee charged for non-profit raffles in excess of $3,000, I believe is the amount, changed from 1 percent of the prize money to 1. 5 percent of the gross sales of that organization. That, Mr. Chairman, I think amounts to somewhere in the area of a 400 percent increase on average on those kinds of licences. Could the Minister comment if in fact that has taken place, and that those kind of increased licence fees are in fact being collected? HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Yes, a change took place in 1984, where the licence fee was changed from a 2 percent on prizes to a 1.5 percent on gross. Now there has been no overall increase in licence fees as a result of that change. There may be some individual fluctuations and changes, depending on the prize format that they were using, but by and large I was quite correct in saying that there has been, across the board, no incr ease in licence fees; and in fact the only substantial change we have seen since 1984 has been a decrease in fees as a result in the change of the percentage from break-open tickets. MR. J.

ERNST: Just a point of clarificat ion, Mr. Chairman, in that the question was ind ividual fees as opposed to total fees collected, and that the Minister has responded to that situation, Mr. Chairman. If we can proceed to Page 9 of the report, Mr. Chairman, in 1984 there were some considerable losses reported in the operations of bingo halls in Winnipeg. Just recently we've had reports now that in the last couple of years we've had up to $300,000 additional lost in the operation of government-run bingo halls. First of all, what is being done to try and correct that particular loss?

And second ly, why hasn't it been done, being as how we've experienced the same losses in 1984-85, Mr. Chairman? Why hasn't action been taken to stop those kinds of situations occurri ng? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: First, let me ind icate that the losses the member refers to, in terms of bingo shortfalls, have generally been very small indeed. In fact, the only recent example of this kind of shortfall was with respect to the Free Press article, ind icating a $300,000 shortfall which really only represented 1 percent of sales.

However, we are concerned about any loss because that means a loss to a volunteer organization, a loss to an important organization that is benefiting the community at large. We have made a number of changes to the bingo system in order to improve the situation and to reduce the shortfall. Back in 1984, we intr oduced ac counting controls that have clearly reduced the shortage and more recently we introduced cashier booths at bingo halls to handle payment of prize money in excess of $5.00.

So im provements are being made and we are certainly taking the issue seriously, but it's certainly not a huge problem and I would certainly not want to see blame being put on volu nteers who run these bingo halls. MR. J. ERNST: Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to hear that comment from the Minister, because while I've not di rectly participated in the operation of a bingo myself, from what I understand my wife has and when she explained to me of the operation, it would appear that it's very difficult, if impossible, to have volunteers losing that kind of money. Mr.

Chairman, the rationale for the government entering into the bingo hall business in 1984 was in fact to stop the kind of losses that were occurri ng. The Minister may not think $300,000 is a lot of money, but to me it's a lot of money and I think to most people it's a lot of money. Mr. Chairman, I'm sure it is to you. Regardless of the percentage of overall sales, that is an awful lot of money to be lost as a result of change or whatever, or suggesting that the volunteers, as the newspaper

article did, Mr. Chairman, suggesting the volu nteers were in fact somehow to blame. The fact of the matter is $300,000 was lost. The losses that were being experie nced under private operat ion were continued under the government operation and I would hope that the Minister and her staff now are in a position of counteracting those losses and putting a stop to them. Those funds could well be used, Mr. Chairman, by any number of other groups in the Province of Manitoba. While I'm standing, Mr.

Chairman, with regard to the various groups that are participating under bingo licensing, can the Min ister advise what acc ountability is required for the earnings of these groups? Do they have to file audited statements every year? Do they provide budgets in advance? How are they controlled and how is it determined that, for instance, the St. Vital Flocking Ducks would be entitled to a bingo licence that would generate some $50,000 in revenue? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Let me deal with the first part of the member's question first.

He has made some pretty factually inc orrect statements that have to be add ressed and I'm going to spend a little time giving him the facts, because I don't want to see that kind of misrepresentation carried any further than this exchange between us. First of all, he should know that before the Manitoba Government became involved in the lotteries to the point of licensing and controlling bingo operations no one even knew about any shortfalls. It was all covered up.

In fact, all evidence points to the fact that there were much greater shortfalls happening and much greater misuse of funds and certainly a situation where most of the money was going to a few groups. In fact, we have a situation, a pre-1984 situation, where roughly four groups shared $93,000 in profits from the bingo in the major bingo halls in Winnipeg; 61 other organizations shared $8 1, 000 worth of losses in those same bingo halls. Today we have a situation where we have followed through on our mandate to maximize profits through the changes in the bingo operations.

That is translated into 52 percent per day incr ease