Alberta Hansard — 21 October 1976, Afternoon sitting (14:30) (Legislature 18, Session 2)

19761021

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1587 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, October 21, 1976 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege to correct a mistake made in filing a response to a motion for a return ordered by this Assembly. It was Motion for a Return No. 194 submitted by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. On the advice of my department, which asked for a report requested by the member, I submitted the answer that no report was prepared.

It has since been brought to my attention that one is in fact under way, although it will not be completed for several months. I have corrected that mistake in a memo to the hon. member, but I want to give notice to the House at this early opportunity that it would be our intention to file a supplementary answer to that motion for a return, and at that time file with the Legislature the report requested. I have passed on the appropriate comments to the department. head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, at this time I wish to give notice of two government motions which will be on the Order Paper tomorrow and will be called under Orders of the Day as Government Motions Nos. 3 and 4. The first motion, to be moved by the hon. Provin cial Treasurer, is as follows:

Be it resolved that in respect of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund capital projects divi sion the message of His Honour the Lieutenant- Governor, the estimates, and all matters con nected therewith be referred to the Committee of Supply. The second and succeeding government motion, Mr. Speaker, will be moved by the hon. Premier, as follows:

Be it resolved that this Assembly approve the fiscal policies of the government relating to the making of investments in projects which will form the capital projects division of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, pursuant to the act. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 83 The Police Amendment Act, 1976 MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a bill, being The Police Amendment Act, 1976. The main principles in this bill, Mr. Speaker, are threefold.

First, to make it mandatory that all urban municipalities have their own police commissions, thus emphasizing local autonomy and the supremacy of the civil power. Secondly, further to emphasize the paramouncy of the civil power by making local police commissions responsible for local police manuals. A legal opinion had held that under the present act, the Solicitor General was responsible for all local police manuals, and this was not the intention of the government.

Thirdly, to strengthen the powers of the Law Enforcement Appeal Board by making it manda tory that a judge be the chairman, and giving the board authority to vary the disciplinary punishment of a chief of police or to impose punishment itself, to make it clear that the board should review cases brought to them, not only by citizens at large or of their own motion but also at the request of a police commission or the Solicitor General. [Leave granted; Bill 83 introduced and read a first time] Bill 4 The Social Development Amendment Act, 1976 DR. PAPROSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 4, being The Social Development Amend ment Act, 1976. The principle or purpose of the bill is to improve or clarify the application of The Social Development Act regarding eligibility of general assis tance, including assistance and type of training pro vided under the act, and to provide a penalty for failure of the recipient to notify change of circum stances. Mr.

Speaker, the other principle would assure that improvement districts and special areas would be relieved of the 10 per cent tax burden and would provide that these areas would also receive 100 per cent provincial support, which they are in practice receiving now. Mr. Speaker, the act is in line with the principle of helping the needy but not the greedy. [Leave granted; Bill 4 introduced and read a first time] MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move that Bill No. 4, The Social Development Amendment Act, 1976 be placed on the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MISS HUNLEY: I wish to file two copies of the Red

1588 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 Deer Health Unit report on ASH/Deerhome. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. FLUKER: Mr. Speaker, I am honored to intro duce to you, and through you to this Assembly, 41 Grade 8 students from the Racette Junior High School in St. Paul. They are accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Albert, parents Mrs. Brousseau and Mrs. Gottenbos, and their very faithful bus driver Mr. Krawchuk. I would ask that they rise and be recog nized by this Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Speech Therapy MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct the first question to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. The purpose of the question centres on the problem rural areas in Alberta are having with regard to speech therapy services. Is the minister aware that speech therapy services to the Minburn- Vermilion Health Unit have been completely with drawn by the Glenrose Hospital? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, no I was not aware of that specific, but I certainly will check into it.

I might say with respect to the general provision of speech therapy throughout the province that the recently announced — and more will be said on the future development of the Calgary Children's Hospital to provide services to southern Alberta — intention is that a speech therapist could be provided with the Calgary Children's Hospital as a base. Of course, Mr. Speaker, that is the intention of the Glenrose in Edmonton as well, as the hon. leader mentioned. I will check into this specific and report back. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

I would like to ask the minister if his department is aware that speech therapy services in the Whitecourt-Lac Ste. Anne area have been with drawn to a point where the speech therapist gets into that area once a month. MR. MINIELY: Well, Mr. Speaker, it's of interest to me that those matters from the communities the hon. Leader mentions have not come to my direct attention in my office. I'll check with my office again to see whether official communication has been made by the communities concerned, and will report back to the House on the matter. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister in a position to indicate whether he's had any discussions with anyone from the Glenrose Hospital board, or from the hospital itself, regarding budget restraints resulting in the forcing of speech therapy programs to be cut back to virtually nothing? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, yes I've had several meetings with the Glenrose Hospital board, and I think it's important that the hon. leader does not leave an incorrect impression.

The Glenrose Hospital board and the Calgary Children's Hospital have indi cated to me that the problem is the number of speech therapists available. The Glenrose Hospital has not indicated to me in any way — as a matter of fact they assure me otherwise — that services of this kind would have to be curtailed as a result of the increase in provincial financing to that hospital, as well as other hospitals. The problem, as I understand it, is more one of recruitment of qualified speech thera pists, not of budgetary provision. But I'll recheck that even though the hospital board has assured me of same. MR.

CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. Could the minister give an undertaking to the House that he will in fact talk to the Glenrose board, the reason being that the Glenrose board is apparently indicating to health units that the reasons these important services — started in 1973 I might say — are being cut back is solely because of budget restraint, not because of personnel availability? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, with the greatest of respect, I will check into the details.

But throughout this entire year I've had several communications, not with just the Glenrose Hospital but with board chairmen throughout the province. I've indicated from the beginning that if there was any such concern in a specific area my office was open on a 24-hour basis for board chairmen, or for the official position of boards to be communicated to me as the minister if there was that kind of difficulty for that kind of reason. I've been in conversation with the board chairman of the Glenrose Hospital as recently as one week to 10 days ago.

He made no such comment to me, so I have to assume at this stage, Mr. Speaker, subject to my checking, that the hon. leader is providing me, as the minister, with some thing I have not received officially through the board of the Glenrose Hospital. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Minister of Community Health. I'd like to ask if the minister can indicate to the House her position with regard to requests to health units, and health units making requests to the minister's department to fund speech therapists. MISS HUNLEY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we do have speech therapy through some of the health units in the rural areas. I believe we have 21 speech therapist posi tions. We do not have speech therapists in every health unit and we would not intend to duplicate services, particularly in such areas. There is a need for them, and we try to work together with health units, educational services, and of course, through the Glenrose Hospital to see where the service can best be provided. But we do have 21 positions at the present time. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

Is the minister responsible for reasons being given to health units that there is a

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1589 split jurisdiction between the Department of Hospi tals, the minister's department, and the Department of Education as to who has responsibility of funding speech therapy services in rural areas of the province? MISS HUNLEY: Yes, I believe there's a co-ordinating role to be played. I know there's been some discus sion but I was unaware of the fact, as was my colleague, that a recent problem had been created through withdrawal of services from the Glenrose. Certainly that could be looked at. Co-ordination is needed so we don't have duplication of a very excellent service.

MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one further supplementary question to the minister. Which minister has respon sibility for the co-ordination of speech therapy serv ices provided by the variety of government depart ments? Who should health units and hospital boards zero in on? MISS HUNLEY: I don't think we have actually got too concerned about where the responsibility lies, Mr. Speaker, as long as the service is provided and there is no duplication. When school boards have seen fit to hire a speech therapist and the service is available, I don't think I should get into any row with the school board over jurisdiction.

The same thing applies with Glenrose Hospital. As a result I have not concerned myself as long as this service is provided and there is ample co-ordination. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, might I ask one further supplementary question of the minister. In light of her answer, would the minister give the House an undertaking to check with the Minburn-Vermilion Health Unit to attempt to work out a solution to their particular problem, because the services from the Glenrose Hospital have been withdrawn. There were 61 people either in the process of receiving therapy, or waiting for re-assessment right now.

These people virtually have been left high and dry. MISS HUNLEY: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to do that and to work also with the MLA for the area, who will be most helpful I am sure. Status of Women Report MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct the second question to the Premier and ask if the Premier or anyone from cabinet has responded to the Alberta Status of Women Action Committee report, with regard to their recent presentation to the government. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I refer that question to the Deputy Premier. DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, we did meet with the women referred to by the hon. Leader of the Opposi tion. It would be my intention to respond in some detail to that report, I believe a week from tomorrow. Matrimonial Property MR. CLARK: A supplementary question to the Attor ney General. Is the Attorney General in a position to indicate to the Assembly when we might expect legislation regarding the long-standing problem of matrimonial properties? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, that matter is currently before government caucus, and until it clears that . . . MR. NOTLEY: Not much hope. MR.

FOSTER: . . . eminent group of men and women, I could not suggest a time when it might be expected in the House. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, is that the same eminent group that has been plodding over the planning act for two years? MR. NOTLEY: No, four years, Bob. Maternity Leave MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Minister of Labour. Is the minister in a position to indicate to us when we might expect regulations regarding maternity leave? MR. CRAWFORD: I hope the hon. member doesn't have any special concerns in that respect . . . MR. CLARK: Not that I know of; I haven't been home. MR.

CRAWFORD: . . . that should worry the House. [laughter] Mr. Speaker, I can certainly answer him and indicate that the regulations, as prepared by the Board of Industrial Relations for presentation to cabinet, are in their final form. I have had occasion to express regret to the women's group that met with me that it has taken as long as it has. I think it might have been possible to have done it in a little shorter time. The reason for it was the very considerable degree of consultation that was done.

In other words, the regulations were first done in draft, then pre sented to interest groups, and brought back and revised. I would think they should be ready within a matter of a few weeks. Agricultural Development Loans MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. I would like to ask the minister if he has recently met with the Agricultural Development Corporation Board to discuss new policy planning. MR. MOORE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I meet with the board of directors of the Agricultural Development Corporation on a fairly regular basis.

I believe it was about two weeks ago that I met and discussed with the board directors a variety of policy objectives.

1590 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Could the minister indicate whether a directive has gone to them to reduce the number of loans to farmers in the coming year? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, no such directive has been made to the Agricultural Development Corpora tion by me. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the minister. Has the minister established any new priority guidelines, for example, that father-son loans and so on are top priority? Has any new set of priorities been established? MR. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of changes in existing programs and one or two new lending programs under discussion by the board of directors of the Ag. Development Corporation and me. At this time, Mr. Speaker, I'm not able to make any announcements on those until there is some finalization. But certainly when they are finalized, I will undertake to provide members of the Assembly with the information on any changes in existing programs or new programs that might be available. Home Improvement Program MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Housing.

Has the government made any decision on when phase 2 of the senior citizens' home improvement program will commence? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, this matter has been under active discussion at various levels of govern ment, and in due time the matter will surface for public consumption. MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary to the hon. minister. Does the hon. minister have a ballpark figure as to the percentage of those presently eligible and who have applied for this $1,000 grant? MR. YURKO: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I believe the depart ment now has in the order of 29,000 applications, of which between 23,000 and 24,000 have been approved, and the rest are under consideration. MR. GOGO: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Housing. Would the insulating of one's home qualify under the senior citizens' home im provement program? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, very much so. For a number of reasons, insulating a home is a very integral part of improving one's home, and it very much applies with respect to the program. DR. PAPROSKI: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister would indicate to the House if he has any figures to indicate how many would be eligible under phase 2 of the program. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, if I gave any figures in that regard it would simply suggest, to some people anyway, the extent to which we would extend the program. I indicated that would be made public at the appropriate time. MR. NOTLEY: Due time will be two years. Petrochemical Development MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. Minister of Business Develop ment and Tourism.

In the light of statements attrib uted several months ago to the president of Dow Chemical, Mr. Naegele, that AIB rules on profits might make the Dow Alberta petrochemical projects uneconomical, have either the minister or members of the government met with Dow Chemical on this matter? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, not members of the political part of government. However, our depart ment has been meeting the Dow people consistently over the last number of months, and my understand ing is that the office has just received a request from Dow for a meeting with me. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the hon. minister. In view of the statements attributed to the president of the company, is the minister in a position to say whether it's had any bearing on the projected Dow projects in Alberta? Are they still being planned on schedule? MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, very much so. They are on schedule. In fact, I think in some cases they're a little ahead. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovern mental Affairs.

In the light of statements made by the president of Dow Chemical and other companies, is the minister in a position to indicate to the House what type of representation was made to the federal government by the Government of Alberta concerning the May 25 changes in the AIB rules on profits? MR. HYNDMAN: I'd have to check on that, Mr. Speaker. Maybe the honorable gentleman could advise me of the statements of the president of Dow to which he refers, and I'll certainly check and report back. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I should expand upon the answer given by the Minister of Business Development and Tourism with regard to discussions I've had with the president of Dow Canada, Mr. Naegele, relative to the question raised by the Member for Spirit River-Fairview. It was put to me that the decision by Dow to invest I believe some $600 million, which is the largest individual project that that rather large company has made in the province of Alberta by way of risk investment, was very much a border-line decision because of the Anti-Inflation Board decisions relative to profits.

He assured me that that decision was made, though. And it was made on the understand ing that they had in this province a climate towards free enterprise that would be supportive for the people of Alberta. I think it's a tremendous risk

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1591 investment and a tremendous endorsation of our province. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the hon. Premier. Has the Premier had an opportunity to discuss this matter with Mr. Naegele subsequent to the changes in the AIB guidelines on profits announced last month by the federal Minister of Finance? Do those changes meet some of the concerns expressed by the Government of Alberta? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I have not to the discussions [that] predated the alterations. I do recall being advised of reports that Mr.

Naegele of Dow had stated that no further projects would be undertaken by their company in Canada unless there were very significant adjustments in the profit provisions of the Anti-Inflation Board. That was prior to the adjust ments being made. Of course he did make the exclusion, as I've mentioned in my earlier answer, with regard to the province of Alberta. I've received no information, nor I presume has the Minister of Business Development and Tourism, as to any different point of view that the president of Dow might have taken as a result of those adjustments. AIB Profit Guidelines MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the Premier or the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. Can either the Pre mier or the minister indicate to the House whether the modifications announced last month in the rules on profits under the federal wage and price control program parallel recommendations made by the Government of Alberta? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't recall any spe cific recommendations in writing having been made in that regard. However, over the course of the past few months both the hon.

Provincial Treasurer and I have indicated the concern we've had in Alberta with such guidelines as appear to be reducing the climate for investment in Canada, particularly in Alberta insofar as continuing investment in this province is crucial to maintaining the economy. We haven't yet had a chance to see the impact of the modifications in the regulations which would appear at first glance to have some degree of impact in terms of not discouraging investment as much as before. But it will be some months before we can assess whether or not that in fact has happened. Mobile Home Park — Airdrie MR. LITTLE: Mr.

Speaker, may I address my question to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works. Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly concerning progress on the construction of the mobile home park at Airdrie, Alberta? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, without taking too much time on this complex and extensive issue, I would just like to say that the tenders were advertised some time ago, and we did indeed receive a substantive number of replies to the tenders for onsites, some thing like 20.

The release of the tender is conditioned by an agreement with respect to the sewage line which I think is now in place between the town of Airdrie and the city of Calgary. The board of directors of the Housing Corporation has laid down extensive guidelines with respect to the development of the mobile home park, and these guidelines will be made public shortly. But they are rather unique in some areas in that each modular home construction company will be given the opportunity to establish up to five homes in the park, almost on a display basis, to indicate what they can provide to the public.

Indeed, the park is being looked upon as an acceptable form of living in single-family accommodation in the future. MR. LITTLE: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister further advise whether his department or any other department of government exercises any control over the type, size, and quality of the mobile homes that will be placed in the park? MR. YURKO: Very much so, Mr. Speaker. The Alber ta Housing Corporation has indeed established stand ards in relation to the size, the type, and the mix of single-wide as against double-wide in the entire park.

The allocation of lots has been decided on by the board of directors of the Alberta Housing Corporation. This information will be made publicly available in pamphlet form shortly. MR. LITTLE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister further advise if the mobile homes are permanently attached to the lot once they are in the park; that is, in situations of sale will the mobile home be sold on the lot? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, one of the conditions laid down by the board was that all units would have permanent foundations and that basements would be optional.

But indeed, all units would have permanent foundations. Irrigation Projects MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister received any word regarding progress on the new aqueduct to be built in the eastern irrigation district near Brooks? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, hon. members will recall that an agreement was worked out between the Government of Canada and Alberta on the eastern irrigation district, which would have concluded that a start would be made during the current fiscal year on the Brooks aqueduct.

However, as a result of the Prime Minister's statement on spending cuts of December 1975, no funds were made available by the Government of Canada during the current fiscal year. The latest information I have, Mr. Speaker, is that federal government officials are extremely confident that funds will be made available for a start during the next fiscal year, beginning April 1, 1977, and that

1592 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 they would hope to finalize that position within the next few weeks. In the event that funds are made available, they would expect to call tenders for a start on April 1, 1977. MR. MANDEVILLE: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate whether the government has had any recent discussions with Ottawa in regard to the proposed dam at Eyremore in the eastern irrigation district? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of that. Perhaps the Minister of the Environment would have. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, the whole project in that region of southeast Alberta is going ahead on two bases. The hon. Minister of Agriculture, I think, explained the situation with respect to the aqueduct. It was the responsibility of our department to acquire the land for it, and that was done some time ago. With respect to the other important part of the project — that is, whether the repairs are made to the Bassano dam or whether or not a new structure is built at Eyremore — is presently the subject of studies being undertaken for the department by the PFRA. We expect those to be completed by the end of March.

That is three months later than originally expected as the result of a drilling program that's being undertaken. Health Sciences Centre MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. With reference to the proposed $86 million health facility, what is the government doing now to ensure that we have a competent medical staff when that building is completed? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, as I'm sure the hon. Member for Drumheller would know, historically the recruitment of medical staff rests with the individual hospital board.

I have been in discussion with the hospital board and with the University of Alberta faculty of medicine, and in particular, Dean Cameron. It's our intention to form a joint implementation committee that would work on questions such as that, and questions such as tying in other metropoli tan hospitals, rural locations, and programs with the Alberta Health Sciences Centre, with a knowledge- sharing concept between the Health Sciences Centre and other hospitals in both urban and rural Alberta.

Those are questions we are going to examine in joint committee as to co-ordination and the administrative vehicle to try to accomplish those kinds of public objectives. MR. TAYLOR: One further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is it the general plan that this health facility would be comparable in this part of the country to [what] the Mayo Clinic [is] in the United States and eastern Canada? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I am reluctant to use the term "Mayo Clinic".

We feel this is going to be a unique concept that will have leadership not just in Canada, but in fact will be one of the finest health and medical research centres in the world. So while I suppose one could use that term, I think the Mayo Clinic is probably somewhat more narrow than what we intend ultimately for the Alberta Health Sciences Centre. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could just supplement the hon. minister's answer because of the importance of the subject the hon. Member for Drumheller raises.

It's our view that we have at the moment a nucleus of staff at the University of Alberta Hospital — as we have throughout the province, but in many respects particularly there — that is considered extremely outstanding and has a very broad and highly deserved international reputation. We think the facility, even without the addition of staff from elsewhere, war rants the sort of commitment that's involved. We're given to understand that by developing this new facility, and with such a nucleus, we will be able to attract even more outstanding medical specialists from throughout the world. Municipal Revenues MR.

NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to either the hon. Premier or the Minister of Municipal Affairs. It concerns the city council resolu tion of October 13 expressing dismay and disappoin tment at the Government of Alberta not being pre pared to move into the area of a growth tax revenue sharing with municipalities. Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is: in the light of this concern, what particular assessment is now being given by the provincial government not to sharing income tax but to industri al tax sharing, in the light of some of the comments previously made in the House by the minister? MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I could advise the House that the Provincial Municipal Finance Council has completed a study on the potential for sharing growth taxes, both commercial and industrial, throughout the province. Sometime this fall I expect to release this study to the municipalities for their consideration. Power Project Applications MR. ZANDER: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Is there an application before the Energy Resources Conservation Board at this time for the expansion of the Calgary Power south Sundance plant? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure about the Energy Resources Conservation Board. However, the hon. member will review the coal development policy procedures announced by the government during the summer. A company wishing to proceed with a project has several steps to go through before it reaches the Energy Resources Conservation Board.

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1593 There is a requirement to provide the government with what is referred to in the policy statement as a preliminary disclosure, at which time the government can indicate on a preliminary basis whether there are any problems in principle with regard to the project. Assuming it gets approval from the government at the preliminary disclosure stage, the company is required to go through a second step, still before reaching the Energy Resources Conservation Board, which we call disclosure to the public.

In that case it would be by a public meeting in the area most affected by the development. Following that, it would be the responsibility of the company to proceed to the Energy Resources Conservation Board. I'm taking a little bit of time, because it's a new policy, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to inform the hon. member that the preliminary disclosure stage has now been followed by Calgary Power with regard to the south Sundance project and has been approved in principle by the government. MR. ZANDER: Supplementary question to the minst er.

Have these activities also been gone through by Edmonton Power in the Genesee field? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the city of Edmonton, representing Edmonton Power, have just — I believe it's on my desk now — provided the government with what I would refer to as a preliminary disclosure document regarding development of the Genesee coal reserves which they own. That has not yet had a chance to go through the preliminary disclosure procedure with the government departments.

One other matter I should have mentioned to the hon. member is that Alberta Power has also received a preliminary disclosure approval in the Sheerness area. ASH/Deerhome Food Services MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health once again, and ask if she has yet received the petition from over 250 employees at ASH/Deerhome in Red Deer with regard to the food preparation problems at that institution. MISS HUNLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. Regional Air Service — Safety Measures MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Transportation. In the light of the recent DoT report on the tragic Bayview air crash last December at Slave Lake, is the Alberta government satisfied that satisfactory safety standards are presently being ap plied by federal authorities for third-level air carriers in the province? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I find some difficulty in assessing that particular question, other than to say this. We are concerned that we have a more detailed consultation procedure with the federal MoT relative to third-level carriers in the province.

Indeed that's one of the problems that has delayed the implementa tion of additional flights. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the hon. minister. I just ask this for clarifica tion. Does the minister envisage that a consultation between MoT and the province would relate specifi cally, among other things, to safety standards, main tenance procedures, et cetera? DR. HORNER: Yes, essentially that's true, Mr. Speaker.

Indeed with the rapid advance in our airport program, the additional lighting, and other facilities being provided in our regional airports around the province, we think this has made a substantial step forward in the whole safety factor. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, just one final supplemen tary question. From the information available to the department at the present time, and again in light of the rather frightening report on the Slave Lake incident, is the government satisfied that the present third-level carriers are up to satisfactory safety standards? DR. HORNER: Well Mr.

Speaker, I'd have to say very quickly that we're certainly satisfied with Time Air's operation. Their safety record is excellent indeed, and they certainly fulfil all the requirements. Perhaps it should be noted, Mr. Speaker, that the aircraft industry and the establishment of a third-level line requires a substantial amount of financing, and that sometimes a lack of adequate financing can, in fact, hamper safety precautions that they should take. Then they're in violation of regulations. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I move the following motions for return stand and maintain their place on the Order Paper: 204, 212, 213, 215, and 222. [Motion carried] 209. Mr. Taylor proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: The number of juvenile delinquents receiving treat ment at (

a) Alberta Hospital, Oliver, and (

b) Alberta Hospital, Ponoka, pursuant to court orders, as at March 31, 1976; and, The number of juvenile delinquents who were ordered to the above institutions for treatment who are waiting for admission, as at March 31, 1976. [Motion carried] 223. Mr. R. Speaker proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return

1594 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 showing:

(1) The total cost of the preparation of the document "Alberta Habitat Demonstration Projects" May 1976 prepared by the Special Projects and Policy Research Branch of the Department of Munici pal Affairs.

(2) The number of copies printed of the documents referred to in (1). [Motion carried] 225. Mr. Taylor proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing:

(1) A copy of the Alberta Department of Transporta tion's request for proposals regarding air service in the province of Alberta issued during the spring of 1976;

(2) The names of companies to whom the request was sent;

(3) The number of proposals received prior to the deadline of June 25, 1976;

(4) A copy of any counter-proposals received from air lines;

(5) The action the government has taken in regard to the proposals. [Motion carried] head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 1. Moved by Dr. Webber: That the Government of Alberta continue to place a high priority on education for the handicapped, and consider further improvements in the quality of education and services for: (1) those with learning disabilities (2) both the totally and partially deaf (3) both the totally and partially blind. [Adjourned debate: Mrs. Chichak] MRS. CHICHAK: Mr.

Speaker, in continuing the de bate on Motion No. 1 before us this afternoon, I would like to say that this motion was introduced by my honorable colleague from Calgary Bow on March 30 last. In the course of his remarks he gave the background on the education of the handicapped, the progress made in the area in recent years, and expressed concerns and proposed possible areas for improvement. In his remarks, my honorable col league identified basically five categories of handicap.

Because of the span of time I would like to refresh and bring back into the record the categories identi fied, because I think the majority of the debate stems around these identities. My honorable colleague from Calgary Bow included in his categorization the following: one, the sensory disorders, including those with visual and hearing handicaps; the other, those with mental disorders, such as the educable mentally retarded, the trainable mentally retarded, and the custodial.

The third category is those having communication disorders; that is, students with basic psychological progress problems in the understanding and use of written and oral language. Quite often they are described and referred to as the learning disabled. The fourth category identified was those who have neurological or physical impairments. Of course the fifth category identified was those with behavioral disorders, such as the emotionally disturbed. Mr.

Speaker, in the earlier part of the debate some of the programs were outlined, and I think it bears repetition to bring the substantial aspects of these programs into the current record. I refer to the establishment in 1973 of the learning disabilities fund for school boards for assessment of children with learning disabilities. That fund is currently at a level of $15 per elementary student, a substantial increase in a period of three years.

Again in 1973, at the time this government recognized and had an opportunity to examine and develop new programs and directions in assistance or aid for the handi capped, it established in the early childhood services program special funds for assessment and education of handicapped children. The fund started at $4.7 million and is now approximately $15.5 million in this area. Grants for special education teaching positions for resource rooms and mildly handicapped now range from $10,900 to $13,400 per position.

The level of support in this area in 1972 was $5,000 per position, a great improvement and step forward indicating this government's concern with the problems of the handicapped. In 1973 two pilot projects providing learning assis tance centres in the province were established, one at Grande Prairie and one at Red Deer. The special education teaching positions have increased from 700 to 1,100 over the past three years, again a marked increase in the availability of assistance and service to our handicapped people.

In 1972 the enrolment in special programs for the various cate gories of handicapped was 5,400 students, some 1 per cent of the total school enrolment. In 1976 the enrolment increased to 17,000, 4 per cent of the total school population. This certainly has to be a very clear indication of the expansion and funding that has been provided over a short span of time. In 1974 a paper entitled "Education of the Deaf in Alberta" made several criticisms of our programs, some of which were as follows — I will read those that were previously submitted in our debate.

The criticisms were: At present there is little if any supervision or co-ordination of curriculum, instructional proce dures or programs. There was reported a complete absence of any co-ordinated developmental, sequential language program. Another criticism was: a fragmented approach to assessment and a lack of articulation and harmony between the medical and educational communities. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that many improvements have been made in this area outlined, but it would be worth while to examine how far we have actually come in this area of improvement.

In my remarks on March 30, I outlined the need for greater strides to be made in areas of research with respect to the handicapped in the broad sense. I also indicated the need for "greater . . . integration of the young handicapped into our educational system and

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1595 into society". I think attempts have been made to overcome the need. However, I believe we still have a great deal of work to do to accomplish a satisfactory level of service and provision of programs and facilities. At that time I commented, and I'm still of the same view today, that I felt society was "not sufficiently informed about the assistance and the programs available" in the areas of the handicapped. Perhaps only those who are very closely linked and have experienced and benefited from the programs have become more aware.

In my concluding remarks on this resolution on March 30, I stated that I would discuss various services provided by the province. The government's objective in creating programs for the handicapped, especially to help communities establish for handi capped people programs of a specialized nature — the government has taken the opportunity to initiate and operate some programs. I think it is important to note that a special division of the Department of Social Services and Community Health, known as services for the handicapped, has been created to care for the needs of the handicapped.

Let me indicate some of the specific programs this department controls. One of them is the Alberta School Hospital/Deerhome in Red Deer, Baker Centre in Calgary, Eric Cormack Centre in Edmonton, and Wetaskiwin Centre. Over 1,000 spaces have been created for mentally and/or physically disabled people to receive training to help them maximize their potential. Some of the programs established in the province are sheltered employment and sheltered industries, the employment opportuni ties program, the vocational rehabilitation centre, the vocational training centres, and activity centres.

Residential accommodation facilities vary according to age of the individual and the degree of dependence of the handicapped person. The general divisions are: dependent handicapped children or adults; moderate ly handicapped children; adolescents and young adults attending pre-vocational or vocational training programs; adults who require long-term accommoda tion but are not entirely self-sufficient; mentally retarded people with behavior problems; and persons requiring temporary facilities during times of family stress, illness, or vacations.

Special services are provided to help families take care of the handicapped in their own homes. More specifically, the programs initiated involve day care and training, relief accommodation, financial assis tance for equipment, medication, and other extra costs. To facilitate the establishment of these serv ices, I believe the Department of Social Services and Community Health spent some $29,500,000 last year. Of these moneys 80 to 85 per cent were spent on services for the mentally retarded.

The Depart ments of Transportation, Hospitals and Medical Care, Advanced Education and Manpower, and Recreation, Parks and Wildlife also have programs incorporating the many needs of the mentally and physically handicapped. The Cormack Centre, in its report "The Plan for Developmental Resources for the Dependent Handi capped", pointed out that "services and facilities are required, to meet the population growth and reinforce normal living". This objective, they point out, is best achieved in small group environments.

Creating new facilities should therefore maintain the specific needs of a handicapped child in achieving this objective. Specifically, they indicate such facilities: (

a) enable the dependent handicapped to live in their own communities; (

b) support families who want their children to live at home; (

c) assure adequate health support and provide opportunities for the functional develop ment of the handicapped regardless of their age and/or disabilities; (

d) expand each community's supportive role to families and reinforce its potential for accommodating and integrating the handi capped; and (

e) meet the various residential needs includ ing temporary relief accommodation. Mr. Speaker, on this particular report and recom mendation of small group environments, I'm very pleased to have some updated information with respect to the establishment of such group homes in the city of Edmonton. I'm particularly pleased that there is a very clear possibility that in the near future one such facility will be established in my constitu ency of Edmonton Norwood.

Why I'm particularly pleased about this project being established in my constituency is that our statistics indicate that in a very small area of the Edmonton Norwood constitu ency, some 26 families have children who are disadvantaged and disabled. This will enable these young people to live very near their parents and the parents to play a greater role in the care of the children. I'd like to say that education of handicapped chil dren is made difficult by the financial burden it places on parents of the handicapped, school boards, and provincial governments.

But the government should continue to place a high priority on these children's rights to receive an education. I believe no cost is too high to pay for this right. Mr. Speaker, you have indicated I am about at the end of the time allocated for me in the debate. So before I close I would simply like to suggest that part of the Alberta Heritage Trust Fund should be allo cated towards very extensive research in coping most effectively with the problems of the handicapped and providing effectively the kinds of services that would benefit the greatest majority of them at the least cost to the population at large.

However, the minimization of that cost to society at large should not take precedence over meeting the needs of the handicapped. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. TESOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportu nity to speak in favor of this well-reasoned motion. It is one that has continuous importance to us all. In his extremely well-documented address, the hon. Member for Calgary Bow provided the Assembly with more than ample proof that this government has made major improvements in the education pro gramming for the disabled and the handicapped. The government has shown a strong commitment to innovative education.

The government has also shown and is continuing to show itself to be a responsible one. Mr. Speaker, handicapped children and those with learning disabilities have always been noticed. Those handicapped by difficulties in seeing or hearing were

1596 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 either sent to specialized centres or struggled to keep up in public schools. Those isolated in centres were not given a chance to live as normal a life as possible. Those who stayed in public school were forced to cope with not only their handicap, but also the well-meaning but ignorant help of untrained and underequipped staff. Those children who had learn ing disabilities were also noticed, but unless their disability was severe, it was taken for simple lack of ability, clumsiness, or just plain stubbornness.

It was often simply the child's misunderstood way of attempting to overcome a physiological or psycholog ical problem. Mr. Speaker, the past five years have seen several changes which have moved us closer to correcting this situation. Disabilities and handicaps are more often identified early. Once they have been identi fied, they may be overcome or lessened through application or specifically designed and flexible programs. Early identification and treatment is extremely important. Few learning disabilities are severe.

If a child with a disability can be given corrective instruc tion at an early age, he stands a good chance of being able to begin school on an equal footing with his peers. Early identification and treatment have been made possible through the introduction of the early child hood services program in 1973. This program has acted as a catalyst, banking on increased awareness of the forms learning disabilities take. It has helped to organize the chaos which characterized treatment in the past. It has led to increased discussion, co-ordination and co-operation between those who are providing remedial treatment.

It has proven itself to be both flexible and visible. Its services have extended into rural communities, until recently virtu ally ignored. In my constituency, like the handicapped services division it has worked with the north rather than imposing itself on the north. Instead of parachuting a team of experts into smaller communities, performing tests more appropriate to large cities, then rushing off, it has chosen to work with those who know the area best and who have a knowledge and experience of the local way of life.

Local public health nurses, kept informed of early childhood services, have proven to be excellent at recognizing those children who have disabilities and have referred these chil dren to early childhood services for specialized instruction. It is important, Mr. Speaker, that such a method of identification be followed, for experiences in the past have shown that cultural differences can easily be grounds for misidentification. Children have been classified as disabled when they were simply being forced to express themselves in a way foreign to their environment.

Those who are disabled or handi capped may receive specialized assistance through programs funded by ECS. Pre-admission assessment grants of up to $95 per child assist in early identification. Programs for the deaf or hard of hearing receive $1,075 per child. Those for children with learning disabilities receive $885. In each case, the increase is almost 55 per cent since 1973. Programs for the blind or visually impaired receive $870 per child, an increase of almost 160 per cent since 1973. The increase in support has been remarkable. The increase in number of grants has been exceptional.

Roughly four times as many children as in '73 will benefit this year. As the hon. Member for Calgary Bow pointed out, the budget for ECS has increased by almost $11 million. Mr. Speaker, diagnostic services and treatment facilities have in the past tended to centralize in the large cities. ECS, in conjunction with the learning disabilities fund and special education teaching posi tion grants, has worked since 1973 to oppose unnecessary centralization. Non-urban schools are now better to provide assistance locally. Resource rooms permit flexible instruction for the student with special needs.

More teachers have received training in identifying and responding to those special needs. This response is increasingly made in normal or close to normal school settings. The Department of Education is committed to educate within one's environment. The Cascade model follows, and six possible settings for instruction are considered. These include: a normal classroom; a normal class room combined with periods of individual instruction; a normal classroom with therapy sessions; a segre gated classroom in a normal school; a segregated school; or finally, an institution with round-the-clock care.

Such a policy allows as much interaction as possi ble between special and non-special students. This interplay is vital. As M.A. Tucker, writing to The Albertan put it, this program is realistic: For it seems abundantly clear that most blind children, most deaf children, most children hand icapped either physically or mentally, will end up living in the world 'out there'. Only the most severe cases will be institutionalized for life.

By the same token, sooner or later those of us who rejoice in our normality will have to cope with someone who is blind . . . or deaf . . . or emo tionally crippled . . . or mentally handicapped. That is life. [These people] . . . should not be separated from the rest of the school population. It is unfair to both the handicapped and the 'normal'. Mr. Speaker, such a course is sensitive to individ ual needs. Such a course is humane. Such a course is also expensive.

With a ten fold increase in school grants for handicapped children education services, this government has shown itself willing to assume that expense. In the past five years the Government of Alberta has increased expenditures on education dramatically. The funds have often gone for innovative and necessary programs. The expenditures on and the quality of the programs have proven that education of those with special needs has been a high priority. The commitment has been shown. Mr. Speaker, there is now some question as to whether the energy has been lost.

There is fear that education of those with particular needs is no longer important. The concern stems from the attempt this year to stay within inflationary guidelines. The boom seems to be over. As the Premier warned lately, we must slow down and move with more carefully measured steps. We must protect our future. We cannot agree too strongly with this view. We must act with restraint. We must pause, consolidate and survey the situation.

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1597 But Mr. Speaker, we must not become hesitant. We must not forget that though much has been accomplished, more needs to be done. Further expenditures in the area of early identification and treatment are investments which are needed and must be made. Research can be expanded. More instructors must be trained and hired to teach these children. Mr. Speaker, we must proceed responsibly, but we must proceed. In this area we should not become fearful of the future.

As the Celdic report notes: All Canadian children should be able to expect that their needs will be met in a way that will enhance their dignity in their own eyes and in those of others. Children have a right to expect this; we owe it to them; we can offer no less. They are our future, and to shortchange them is to shortchange Canada. To conclude, Mr. Speaker, may I say that we must give consideration to the fact that parents of handi capped children should not be required to bear a heavier financial responsibility for the education of their children than those of children who are not handicapped.

Furthermore, the handicapped child must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible. In other words, I speak here of normalcy of the learning environment. Mr. Speaker, continuous screening and evaluation of all students is a necessity in order that teachers can continuously relate to the needs of the student. However, Mr. Speaker, it is proper that the government pause to evaluate by approving the resolution of the hon. Member for Calgary Bow. Let us prove to the citizens of this great province that this pause is to refresh and redirect, but not to falter. MR. LITTLE: Mr.

Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak to Motion No. 1 on the Order Paper. I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Calgary Bow, not only for bringing this motion to the floor of the House but for the most commendable overview he gave in his speech a short time ago. He has done such a commendable and a comprehensive job that my remarks will necessarily be fairly brief. Mr. Speaker, there appears to be a growing concern for the increasing numbers of young handi capped in our societies. However, are there actually more, or are we merely identifying more? A report referred to by the hon.

Member for Calgary Bow indicated that although only 2 per cent of all students in the country are attending special classes, it is estimated that fully 10 to 12 per cent require special training. I think this would indicate that, yes, we are identifying more, but possibly we should be improving the diagnostic services so we can see to it that even more students are given the benefits of early training. I understand that the Edmonton facilities are excel lent.

We have a number of complaints from constitu ents in the Calgary area that we don't have similar facilities, and that it is rather hard not only on the children to journey to Edmonton, but hard on the parents to visit. I would recommend that similar facilities be established for the southern part of the province, and of course in the Calgary area. Another area I think we must look at is the teaching of teachers. It would appear that the best services and teaching facilities happen to be in the United States.

Our best teachers for the handicapped come from institutions — I understand the one in Oregon is probably the best in the world. I think it would be a commendable step if we were to establish teaching services in Canada so we could provide teachers of equal quality. While we are looking at teaching of teachers, it might be a step worth looking at to teach parents. A good number of the parents who have contacted me apparently don't understand the problems thoroughly.

In many cases they find difficulty coping with a handicapped child in the family, and in other cases they hesitate to face the fact that their child is handicapped. I think it would be a great step forward if we took this into consideration and prepared parents to deal with this problem. I'm also informed that more phonic ears and more subsidized special telephone sets are urgently needed for the hearing handicapped.

It would be well for us to embark on some sort of public relations plan or program to educate employers to accept these handi capped persons, because my experience has been that a good number of those who have handicapped speech or hearing are nevertheless highly intelligent persons and make excellent employees. However, on the whole I believe that in Alberta we are doing a very commendable job on the programs. I sincerely hope the government of this province con tinues to give this problem a very high priority. Once again, my congratulations to the hon.

Member for Calgary Bow for bringing this problem to our atten tion, and I sincerely hope the House gives this motion its approval. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I also want to commend the hon. member from Calgary Dr. Webber for bringing in this very splendid resolution. Recently a

chapter of the Alberta Association for Children with Learning Disabilities was formed in Drumheller. One of the founders of this

chapter is a counsellor in the MD of Starland who has shown a tremendous interest in helping boys and girls. This is a new organization as far as the Drumheller area is concerned, but I am hoping it will be able to do a tremendous amount in helping boys and girls who have learning disabilities. When we think of boys and girls who have learning disabilities, most people immediately think of a boy or girl who is subnormal, and that is really not correct. Some boys and girls who have a very high IQ, as a matter of fact perhaps I may say too high, have a learning disability too.

Really they are at both ends of the ladder, and many in the middle. Some people have claimed that it's hard to identify a child with a learning disability. Perhaps in a classroom where the number of boys and girls is very high, where the pupil/teacher ratio is very high, and the teacher is teaching a number of classes at that, it may be difficult to identify boys and girls who need special assistance.

That was one of the advantages in the old country school system, where a teacher almost lived with all the children eight or 10 hours every day, got to know them almost as well as the parents, and was thus able to identify these disabili ties much more easily. The Calgary Kiwanis Club has issued a very fine pamphlet that deals with the identification of boys and girls in these categories. While there is a small percentage at both ends, it's a very important per

1598 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 centage. Some of the things that lead a teacher to spot a boy or girl who needs special attention are included in a list in their pamphlet: hyperactive, hypertalkative, destructive, impulsive, a loner, perse verance, convulsions, allergies, a short attention span, spotty achievement, speech disorder, easily frustrated, explosive temper, attention seeking, co ordination defect.

A child who appears to be normal in every sense, with average or higher than average intelligence, yet failing in reading, writing, mathema tics, or spelling, who continually misspells very small words like "the" as "hte", requires some special attention. I think anyone who has spent very many years in the classroom can recall boys and girls who were identified as needing special attention. In a busy school the normal teacher, the teacher with average training today, can do a great deal toward helping these boys and girls solve their difficulties.

When I taught in the country I remember having a lad who certainly needed special attention. He had a very short attention span. He needed continual drill, but the drill could not last more than five or 10 minutes or you lost his attention. After several experiments of drilling on combinations throughout the five days of the week and getting him to where he could answer immediately you asked him a question, I found that when he came back to school on Monday morning and I asked him the same combination, he hesitated.

I made arrangements with his folks for him to come to school for an hour Saturday morning, an hour Saturday afternoon, and an hour Sunday afternoon. You know, that made the entire difference in that lad. He was able to continue to the point where when he got to the end of the year you just couldn't stick him on a combination or separation. He knew the answer immediately. It was drilled right into him. But it took time, patience, and ingenious ways of getting him to learn the combinations — the same with reading and spelling.

While I agree that special training in these fields is advantageous for teachers, I do not adhere to the thinking that teachers with average training can't do a tremendous amount in helping to solve the difficul ties of these boys and girls, if they have an under standing and the interest to do so. For many years teachers were expected to identify the individual weaknesses of boys and girls and to teach according ly. It was part of our psychology in learning to be a teacher. It differs widely for the classroom teacher com pared to the university professor.

The university professor simply walks in, delivers his address, and walks out. If you get it, O.K. If you don't, you'd better go to the library and get it afterward. There's no drilling and no hounding and no repeating and repeat ing and repeating. But if that practice is followed in the elementary, intermediate, and senior schools, many of our boys and girls just would not get through school. It requires special attention and repeating some things many times. I remember having a teacher in high school, a very excellent teacher — perhaps some of the hon. members knew him — a Mr. J. Mark F.

Smith, a man who would spend any amount of time. He taught geometry and trigonometry. He also taught English, strange as it might seem. But I remember him most from his geometry and trigonometry classes, because he was the end of patience. There was no time that I ever remember him refusing to go over an item or an axiom or a trigonometry problem when any boy or girl asked or said they didn't quite understand. He would go over it and over it and over it. As a result, many of us passed the Grade 12 examinations with reasonable marks. Otherwise I am doubtful if many of us would have got through at all.

The teacher has a great deal to do with it. Identifying the problem is important. But you know, today we are spending a great deal more time identi fying these difficulties of boys and girls than we did even five or 10 years ago — a great deal more time. Consequently the problem has become focused and enlarged to a point where we didn't even dream, at that time, that so many of our youth had learning disabilities. Those who are totally and partially deaf and those who are totally and partially blind are not hard to identify.

They are relatively easy to identify, although sometimes boys and girls in a classroom, because they are partially deaf or blind, are unable to keep up with the other children if the teacher doesn't recog nize that disability. Learning disabilities are much more difficult to identify. We can look at the record in order to ascertain the greater importance that has been placed on this matter in the last few years. In 1970 and '71, as far as the records of the Department of Education are concerned, 611 pupils were identified as having learning disabilities — 611 in the entire province.

At that time about $2.2 million was being spent to try to help this group of boys and girls. In 1974-75, just four years later, because of the increased focus and attention given to this problem, 5,963 boys and girls in this province were identified as having special learning disabilities. Now 611 to 5,963 immediately shows there has been increased focussing and putting the spotlight on this problem. That is good. I think that's commendable on the part of the Department of Education, on the part of the school boards, and on the part of teachers. Beyond that, another 2,400 pupils required special classes.

Between 1970 and "74 the amount of public money being spent was $6.5 million, as against $2.2 million. So I think the record is very good, both in identify ing and solving the problem. But I'm still quite satisfied that a lot of boys and girls have not even yet been identified. Because these are undoubtedly the ones who were standing out conspicuously in that group. Others stand out less conspicuously. Some people have said to me, why can't the regular teacher do this? Why do we need special training, special classrooms, and so on?

In many cases I agree that the regular teacher, if he is interested enough, can do a tremendous job. But I would like to emphasize that if we are really going to get results, boys and girls in this group require extra time, extra patience and, many times, extra training on the part of the teacher. What happened when we didn't bother doing that, when we simply let them drift along and didn't spend the extra money or provide the extra classrooms, the extra apparatus, and many of the things mentioned by previous speakers in this debate? What happened?

Well, the boy or girl who was unable to keep up with the class in the lower grades seemed to get through without too much difficulty and without too much

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1599 finger-pointing. But let that same child get into the intermediate school and senior high school; if he's unable to keep up, he soon becomes marked in that class. He becomes discouraged, he becomes frus trated, and sometimes he becomes angry. In my view, in checking with those I have known reasonably well who have ended up in our institutions, I would say three-quarters of them were boys and girls who had learning disabilities which were ignored by the teachers and so on. You might say, so what? My answer is that we're paying whether we know it or not.

We're paying to keep these boys and girls in institutions, in prisons, trying to teach them a trade when they're between 20 and 30 and sometimes 30 and 40, trying to do something that should have been done when they were in high school. I saw a young man in the penitentiary in Drum heller who was there because — he didn't come from the Drumheller area, but he told me this — he was rather slow in learning. So he becomes frustrated, angry at the world, and ends up in a penitentiary. When I saw him, he was working on a carburetor.

He had this huge diagram spread all over the floor and had an actual car there with the carburetor. He was ascertaining exactly what happened, what had to be done. He was so interested in trying to solve the problem of that carburetor that he hardly wanted to stop and talk to those of us visiting the prison at that time. When I said to him, I'd like to talk to you for a minute or so if you don't mind, he said reluctantly, well, O.K. I said, how come you're so interested, almost in an excited way, about this carburetor? He said, well, all my life I've wanted to be a mechanic.

All my life I've been slow at learning. He said, here nobody's rushing me. I might spend three hours going over this page, but when I get through it, I'll know everything there is to know about a carburetor. Then I'll take it apart and I'll put it together. When I get out of this place, I'm going to be able to qualify as a journeyman mechanic. Well you know, I couldn't help but think that the educational system failed that young man. Conse quently the taxpayers of Canada were keeping him in prison for three years. The rehabilitation measure was good.

But how much better it would have been had that young man had the opportunity of doing that when he was in high school in his early or late teens, and then contributing to society, instead of costing society during the balance of his life. But that's what's happening. Today every child we miss in the school system who has a learning disability that should be identified is going to cost society, either while he's there or afterwards. Mr. Speaker, I would much rather spend as much or more money to keep him out of jail as we have to spend when we get him into jail.

Because then he's got two strikes against him, and you have other problems to overcome. So I'm very enthused about a resolution passed by the County of Kneehill, which is in the riding of the hon. Dr. Warrack. Part of Kneehill is also in my riding. But this municipality . . . Correction, it was passed by the M.D. of Starland — I believe also by the M.D. of Kneehill, but this resolution was actually passed by Starland over in the Morrin area. It went through all the whereases, some of which are:

Whereas: The facilities available for these children are inadequate and staffed with untrained teachers in this field; and

Whereas: The salary of a teacher for a Learn ing Assistance Centre in the County of Strath- cona for one year would equal the cost of an incarcerated delinquent for two years. In other words, we get one teacher for the same price we have to pay to keep a boy or girl in prison.

Whereas: Increasing evidence proves that juvenile delinquency results, in many cases, from the lack of adequate or proper training in school for the child with a learning disability. Therefore

be it resolved: That this organization request the Department of Education of the Alberta Government to give top priority to train ing teachers in the field of Special Education for Children with Learning Disabilities and that adequate funds be allotted for classrooms and teachers for these special children. In my view, Mr. Speaker, every dollar we spend in helping a child with a learning disability is going to bring back dollars manyfold later on, because that child will then have a much better opportunity to contribute to society instead of costing society.

I can't help but wonder where society has failed when I see the number of young people in our prisons today, behind bars, caged like animals. Whether it has been in the home, the school, the church, or wherever, we have certainly failed when young men and women who should be contributing to society are simply costing society and wasting away behind bars like caged animals. In every major community in this province, I would like to see an organization where a child may appeal for help.

Take a young man who gets entangled in the law, sometimes in spite of himself, sometimes because of the atmosphere in a particular locality. He can't get away from it, and he has no one to go to. He gets a warning from the police and he's frightened when he goes to court, but he doesn't know where he can get a sympathetic ear.

I hope this type of organization now formed in the Drumheller area, and wherever it is formed, will stand out conspicuously as an organization that shows understanding to young men and women who are getting into difficulties, who are not coping with modern society, and who are finding it difficult to live in today's environment. Every one we are able to help, Mr. Speaker, is going to pay dividends to society and to this country for many, many years. So I support the resolution. I think it's an excellent resolution.

I commend the government on what it has done in the last four years in identifying from 611 to now almost 6,000 whom their program is already endeavoring to help. I think there are probably another 6,000 or 10,000 who need the help. The sooner we help them outside of our jails, the better it will be, the less it will cost to run our prisons, and so on. It's an important phase. One other point I would like to mention is the identification of these boys and girls in the smallest possible way.

Sometimes through some of the points mentioned by the Kiwanis Club in Calgary — a boy or girl who appears to be an average student [but] indicates a very short attention span, whose attention slips five minutes after the teacher commences a lesson, or who has a very bad speech disorder which shows up, or who becomes easily frustrated and

1600 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 completely overwhelmed because he can't solve a normal problem. There is one thing I would like to see in regard to our schools. I would like to see more of our teachers establish a positive instead of a negative approach. I think most teachers soon learn that they don't gain very much by telling a boy or girl, don't spell the word that way, spell it this way; or, I'll punish you if you don't write this sentence properly the next time. That is a negative approach type of teaching, trying to put fear into the child.

It sometimes creates in that child a feeling of inferiority, that he is not equal, not the same as other boys and girls. I like the other approach many, many teachers use. One illustration was a schoolteacher in a country school who had charts on the blackboard on rapid calculation, spelling, writing sentences, and so on. In the rapid calculation, each child kept his own graph, and his mark went on the graph each day. There was no punishment if the marks didn't go up, but there certainly was praise if they did. But every child watched the classroom graph.

So it became an inherent desire in every child to improve — not somebody forcing him from the outside, but some thing inside the child said, I have to do better today. Not with a club over his head, but because the desire was there. In one example that I followed very carefully with regard to this type of teaching, inside of a month the classroom average increased from 52 per cent inside of a month to close to 80 per cent. Every child was part of that classroom. Every child was improving because he felt it was important, without any big reward or punishment if he didn't improve.

But a positive approach was there, and I would like to see more and more of that in our classrooms. I think it would help those with a problem who haven't been identified to get to the point where they can begin to cope with the problem of the classroom. That will enable them to cope with the problems in our country. And when we are able to cope with the problems in our country, we should become better citizens and should be able to make contributions to the country rather than be burdens. I commend the hon. Member for Calgary Bow for bringing in the resolution.

I hope we can increase the program already under way by making sure that every boy and girl with a learning disability will be given enough extra attention in order to equate them with the most normal boy and girl in the land. MR. McCRAE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer a few comments on this motion, not because of any particular expertise in the area, but because of a deep interest in the subject. I know it's self-evident that there's a great deal of interest in the motion. That is obvious from the number of people on both sides of the House who want to get into the debate.

We have had a number of very effective presentations, and I would particular ly like to congratulate the mover of the motion, hon. Dr. Webber, the Member for Calgary Bow, on a very wide and effective presentation and overview of the problem. Mr. Speaker, I suppose one of the many good things about becoming an elected representative, an MLA, is that you do come in touch with a new constituency out there, a new group of people of whom you may have been only vaguely aware. I am speaking about the handicapped, the youngsters, pre-school, in-school, after-school, right up to the senior citizens.

It's just amazing how many there are who are handicapped in one way or another. As an MLA you come into contact with these many citizen groups and begin to recognize their ambitions, aspirations, and some of their frustrations. I think you get a great feeling of understanding for their concerns, their ambitions, their desire to become effective citizens who will have an equal opportunity with the rest of us to have a job, get an education, and earn an income.

I suppose from a selfish point of view they finally end up paying income tax, which gives us as a government a selfish ambition in assisting them to do their thing. As a member for Calgary, Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity of visiting with countless groups of handicapped people. I won't begin to list them all, but I will say that they have been from pre-school, school, right up to the senior citizen age. I think each of them is proud and complimentary about what their gov ernment has done in the past five years. There is some concern that we have further to go.

The amazing thing is how far we have gone in such a short time, considering how far we had to go. I accept the statements of the Member for Drumheller in his well-presented arguments that the number of persons with special learning disabilities who are now being assisted has risen from 611 to 5,963 since '70-71. That is a substantial improvement, a sub stantial record that we should all be proud of in this first five years of office. I think it goes without saying that our government has been of great assistance to all handicapped people, whether in or out of school.

I think it is fair to say that for the number of people in organizations and groups that come to my office in Calgary, they are proud of the government's record. They hope we can go further and I am sure are quite cognizant of the fact that we as a government place them high on our priority list. We are also aware of the fact that we are in a restraint period and it may not be possible to go quite as quickly as some of them would wish. Mr.

Speaker, my first exposure in this area came shortly after I was elected when I had representations from constituents who were members of the Calgary society for the learning disabled. They had a young ster who had a learning disability, a hearing problem. They were concerned and came to me as their MLA. I in turn made representations to the then Minister of Education. I don't know whether it was as a result of my representations but, in due course of time, he did order and arrange for the payment by the provincial government of a study and evaluation of the pro grams for the handicapped in Alberta.

The special area I was interested in was the hearing- handicapped. A good study was done in Calgary and a good report resulted from it. I am pleased to say the report has been substantially implemented. If I might just for a moment indicate some of the recommendations that have been carried out. First, a co-ordinator of the hearing handicapped program for the Calgary Board of Education has been appointed. Secondly, the Calgary Board of Education has been successful in hiring two additional well-qualified teachers of the hearing-handicapped. Also the Board of Education in Calgary has added three special

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1601 teachers of the hearing-handicapped, a school aide, and a speech pathologist. The board has also estab lished two streams for the hearing-handicapped, namely:

a) an oral program for those with sufficient oral acuity to benefit from such a program; and

b) a total communication program for those needing a mixture of oral and manual communication skills. Additionally, the Department of Education for Alberta has designated all teaching positions dealing with pupils with a profound hearing loss as deaf, with an increase in grant from $11,600 to $13,400 per teaching position. I won't go into all the details of the tremendous improvements in programs that have come about in the past two or three years. Other members have done that.

I would simply say there have been substantial improvements, which is recognizable when one goes out and visits with the kiddies and other people involved in the programs. As a result of my interest in the subject, Mr. Speaker, I took advantage of an invitation to attend the Queen Elizabeth High School in Calgary where they have a program for youngsters with acute hearing disabilities. I was tremendously impressed by their program. There are four or five kiddies per teacher per classroom.

It's very interesting to watch the teachers there with these youngsters with a severe hearing handicap, trying to teach them the skills that other Grade 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 students are learning. The children of course are almost totally deaf. I've forgotten the name of the hearing aid they use to assist the teacher in communicating with them, but the youngsters work continually and somehow it gets tonal qualities through to the students so they are able to understand in some manner what the teacher is trying to teach them. It gives you a good feeling to watch these kids.

They know someone is there visiting them, and they're really proud of the bit they are learning. I guess it's a substantial thing they're learning. But they are really pleased, happy, and proud of what they're doing. It gives me as a government member a tremendous feeling of pride in knowing we are making additional programming available for those youngsters. In one of the classrooms I visited, it was a one-on-one situation. A speech therapist — I think that's the occupational name for her role — had a youngster there who apparently had a very, very high IQ but was almost totally deaf.

With this machine and her therapy program, she was communicating words to him. The few moments I was there she had a Raggedy Ann doll that the kid was quite taken with, and was telling him to move the Raggedy Ann from point A to point B. It was from a chair onto a table and back again. When she asked him to do that and demonstrated what he should do, by the look of pleasure on his face I really thought he had heard her and was about to perform. But frankly he hadn't. He smiled from ear to ear and did nothing.

So she repeated it several times, along with the demonstra tion, and finally he picked up the Raggedy Ann doll and moved it from point A to point B. The point I'm trying to make is that it must be a terribly difficult and frustrating thing for a teacher to try to get through to these youngsters, knowing they have the ability to learn, knowing they want to learn what to do, with the hearing handicap which is preventing them from picking up things as quickly as other youngsters. I understand the programs are working.

The teach ers there and the other people on staff certainly deserve a great deal of credit for their patience, perseverance, and dedication to what they're doing. I wonder, when the kids get out of there, particularly those with a total hearing handicap — they have an opportunity in school for several hours a day, then they go back to their homes. It must be a terrible thing for the parents to try to understand how they can communicate with those youngsters. It must be equally frustrating for the children.

In any event, I think the parents and all concerned deserve a tremendous amount of consideration and sympathy from all of us here as taxpayers and legislators, and a complete commitment to assisting them in helping these youngsters become good, effective, well- rounded citizens. I'm sure we have the total commitment of our government. Another school I had the opportunity to visit was the Stanley Jones School, where youngsters with less than a total hearing handicap are taught.

Again that was a tremendously interesting experience for me — to see how the teachers do get through to these youngsters and bring them along to a point where they can be integrated into the other school system there. Of course many children are integrated throughout the entire elementary school system — kids with hearing handicaps, kids who are blind or near blind. Just as an aside in stressing the commitment of our government to the program for all handicapped people, Mr. Speaker, I want to mention the Alberta Children's Hospital in Calgary. It's been there since way back in the early 1900s.

Originally it was a Red Cross hospital. It has more recently been taken over by the government. As a Calgary member I've had the opportunity to work with the minister for hospi tals, the local hospital board, and the other MLAs of course in bringing forward a program for rebuilding that complex. I'm pleased to say the government has a commitment in that area. That was evidenced by the sod turning and an announcement early in July that the government had accepted a low tender of $2 million plus for the first phase of construction of a new school facility at the Alberta Children's Hospital.

The School will provide for the full range of educational resources required by children at the Centre as in-patients, children with physical handicaps who are unable to attend public school facilities, and for children whose treatment is intensive and requires daily out-patient involve ment with the Centre. That is a tremendous step forward for Calgary and southern Alberta. Of course we are appreciative of government action in that area. Mr.

Speaker, I did indicate that the parents, organi zations, and groups involved in the Calgary area with people with learning disabilities in their education are tremendously complimentary and appreciative of gov ernment support in that area. However, I will say that some of them are impatient and frustrated. I think we can understand that. The fact that there may be some delay in bringing on some new program, some new technique, some new facility for these young sters is probably of a lot more concern to them than an average child not having a program or facility available to him right now.

With the handicapped, a

1602 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 loss of a day, week, or year is probably much more of a loss than to an average child. So I think I can understand their frustration and concern that we improve the program as quickly as we can. Well, we've come a long, long way in five years. We have further to go, and I'm sure we'll go further as we're able to evaluate and appraise the programs presently under way. Might I again congratulate the Member for Calgary Bow for bringing the motion forward at this time, and congratulate all other speakers on their very worth-while contributions to the debate. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, in light of the time — we've got one minute — I beg leave to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: As far as I know, we're not under any time constraints. There's been no designated busi ness for this afternoon that I'm aware of. AN HON. MEMBER: Private members bills. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. Leader of the Opposi tion adjourn the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: PUBLIC BILLS AND ORDERS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 212

An Act to Amend The Fuel Oil Licensing Act MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to introduce Bill 212. I thought for a moment that I wouldn't have my opportunity to raise once again some of the comments that were batted back and forth in this House last spring on the plight of the retail automotive operators in the province of Alberta. Mr. Speaker, quite frankly the purpose of Bill 212,

An Act to Amend The Fuel Oil Licensing Act, is the concept of functional divorcement. Functional di vorcement would deny a licence to operate a gas station to a major integrated oil company. However, it would not force the oil companies to get out of business in terms of actually having to sell the physical property. They would be able to own service stations or continue to lease them. The reason I point that out, Mr. Speaker, is that there seemed to be some confusion between func tional divorcement and complete divorcement during the course of our debates on the estimates last spring.

A complete divorcement would mean that the integrated oil companies would have to divest them selves completely of their assets, which would mean that service station operators might very well have the independence they choose, but they would have to buy their assets. They would have to buy the service stations across the province. That is not what the Alberta Automotive Retailers' Association is recommending. Their proposal all along has been for a functional divorcement where the licence to operate is given to an independent service station operator.

But the physical property could continue to be owned, if the companies choose, by the integrated concerns. Mr. Speaker, the type of legislation we have before the House today is similar to legislation presently on the statute books in the state of Maryland, and similar to legislation that has been introduced in the U.S. Senate by Senator Mondale. I know some members in this House may still fleetingly hope that the discredited Republican team will be able to sneak back into the White House, but I suspect that when the people of the United States speak in November, Mr.

Mondale will be the Vice-President of the United States. I'm promoting him a little too quickly. But I cite the fact that he has introduced a bill somewhat similar to this legislation. [interjection] I didn't hear that across the way. MR. GHITTER: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to say that was the kiss of death for Mr. Mondale. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I know this may come as a crushing blow to the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo, but I do not think the things said in this House by any of the members, including the Member for Calgary Buffalo, will somehow carry that much weight with the voters of the United States.

In any event . . . MR. GHITTER: Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering why the hon. member is wasting our time telling us what is happening in Maryland and all over the United States. MR. NOTLEY: Because, Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: Under these circumstances, possibly the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo should not be raising the issue of wasting time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member is waiting enthusiastically to engage in the debate, and I welcome his comments. I would just say to the hon.

Member for Calgary Buffalo that he should be open-minded enough to learn from the experience of any people, including the United States. Mr. Speaker, we've had two reports in Canada recently. The Isbister report, which I gather from the grapevine has been submitted to the backbenchers of the government, looked into this matter in the prov ince of Ontario. As I understand, it the Isbister report generally indicates that they don't see a major problem.

On the other hand, the B.C. energy commission has prepared a report, and in contrast to the Isbister report in Ontario, the B.C. energy commission does suggest there is indeed a very serious problem. At a meeting in Banff not too long ago, the co-author of the B.C. energy report, Dr. Milton Moore from British Columbia, made several comments. Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to quickly paraphrase some of the concerns Dr. Moore expressed.

He said that "the oil companies didn't do their addition" when they got into the whole business of self-serve outlets, that "they especially failed to take into account the expansion of other companies". I must confess I find that interesting in view of the well co-ordinated planning that normally marks the oil

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1603 industry when it comes to pricing. But in any event, Dr. Moore makes that assertion. To make matters worse, the growth in gasoline consumption has been slower than the forecast. That's quite likely, Mr. Speaker, in view of the substantial increase in the price of gasoline, and for those people who argue that we have energy ration ing by higher prices, I suppose it is at least going to slow down the purchase of gasoline throughout the country. But then he went on to make this rather serious point, Mr. Speaker. Dr.

Moore said he had reluctant ly concluded that conventional operators were doomed to defeat in their struggle for survival. In a few years, gas bars will serve 70 to 80 per cent of the market . . . It's too late to slow the process down [now]. When the dust settles there aren't going to be many conventional stations left. Mr. Speaker, I find that rather alarming because in the long run, if the consumer is to be protected, it seems to me it is necessary to maintain independent service station operators in their businesses.

When this matter came up in the House last spring, I know several members rose and said, well, the consumers benefit because of the gas bars. Con sumers have benefited in Edmonton and Calgary because of the so-called price war, a price war fought largely at the expense of the dealer margin. Why should we be concerned if there is competition between Imperial Oil or Gulf Oil self-serves on one hand and the smaller independent operators on the other? Doesn't the consumer benefit in the long run? Mr.

Speaker, it would be fair to say that the consumer benefits in the short run, because in any price war the price is going to come down, and it's very nice to be able to buy gasoline substantially cheaper than before the war had broken out. But the point that has to be made is: what happens after the dust is settled? What happens when many smaller operators are forced out of business? Ruth Wood, president of the Consumers' Associa tion of Canada and the Alberta association in Edmonton, wrote a letter on June 8 to the Edmonton Journal. I want to read several portions of that letter, Mr.

Speaker, because I think it deals quite effectively with this matter raised in the House last spring. She says: The submission by the Automotive Retailers' Association asking our provincial government to curb the increasing control of oil companies over gasoline retailing has met with a weak response from the minister of business development and tourism. Well, there's certainly no doubt about that. Then she goes on to raise the question of consum ers being more interested in cheap gasoline than in complete car service. She challenges that argument.

She challenges it first of all by saying it's strange that we are taking this sort of laissez-faire attitude in Alberta, while on the other hand the federal govern ment is now looking into corporate concentration and has a commission touring the country looking into that subject. She goes on to say: Independent service stations provide many . . . services which make for safer and happier motor ing . . . Consumers need to do some soul-searching on the matter of self-serve outlets. The few dollars we save at the pump may in the long run be the most expensive saving we have ever made. Mr.

Speaker, so says Ruth Wood, president of the Consumers' Association of Canada. I suggest to the members of this House that it is incumbent upon the provincial government to move, and move quickly. We have had this matter under study for some years now. As a matter of fact in 1972, in the first session I spoke in this House, I remember asking the hon. Mr. Peacock during the question period what the government proposed to do about the McKenzie report on gasoline marketing. This was a report that had been commissioned by the former Social Credit government and tabled in 1969.

Quite frankly, virtually no action had been taken on the recommendations of the McKenzie report. Well, Mr. Speaker, with the penchant of this government to study the matter, the minister indicat ed that once again we were going to study it thoroughly. And for four years the matter has been studied and studied and studied while one independ ent service station after another has been forced out of business. Mr. Speaker, studying has gone on long enough. It seems to me it's time to take some action if we're going to maintain service station operators in the province of Alberta. I would think, Mr.

Speaker, a government that likes to talk as much as this one does about preserving free enterprise would want some kind of reasonable protection so the small individual operator would be able to remain in business. Mr. Speaker, I note that the B.C. government has recently introduced legislation which would put a moratorium on self-serve stations going up until they've had an opportunity to decide just where things stand as far as the small service station operators are concerned.

One could raise many other arguments about the question of the relationship between larger integrated companies on one hand and the service station operators on the other. One could raise many arguments about moving to self-serve gas bars, all the way from the question of highway safety, which is one of the points Ruth Wood raises in her letters, to the impact it's ultimately going to have on the consumer once the small businessman is forced out of the picture. The legislation I am proposing today, Mr.

Speaker — and I want to conclude my remarks so that other members will have an opportunity to participate in this debate — is modelled at least in part on an important precedent we have in this province, the precedent in the hotel industry where in years past the breweries were in the hotel business. The hotelmen, quite properly and ably, made the repre sentation to government that there should in fact be a divorcement between their operation on the one hand and the breweries on the other.

The Automotive Retailers' Association in Alberta is requesting essentially two reasonable proposals: one, a uniform, regulated wholesale price, with sta tion rental independent of gasoline supply or price; and secondly, no discrimination with regard to alloca tion of supplies. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of Bill 212, the basic principle behind it, is to give force to those simple

1604 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 requests which, in my judgment, are long overdue and would go a long way to retaining in business many of the smaller operators who, unless we take action, will in the days and months ahead be forced out of business. MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments related to the proposed solutions. Apart from the fact that we are in this kind of business, I have been doing some checking with operators in the city as to their opinion on the reasons for the price war we now have. Prior to that, the operators seemed to be reasonably comfortable.

The answers I get are varied. One of the reasons for the price war we now have — not the only one, but one of the reasons — is an oversupply of gasoline. One of the reasons for the oversupply is that in the processing of oil you get many by products. Sometimes there is a greater demand for the by-products than for gasoline. So you have to keep on with the processing, and you can wind up with a surplus. When that happens, it starts to affect the market because you get a storage problem.

In attempting to solve the storage problem you can get a sales program going where an attempt is made to sell off the surplus gasoline. Rather than going into a storage program, you go into a sales program. There we get into a free enterprise concept, I guess. The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, of course, doesn't agree and is entitled to disagree with my concept of the free enterprise thing. Nevertheless, believing in free enterprise would stop me from wanting to interfere with this market factor which, even though it's a short-run benefit to the consumer, is a benefit.

But beyond that, the fear I would have is moving into another area of regulation. We have had about three weeks of sitting as a commission listening to people who start out by saying, we don't want regulations really, but we would like just this little bit. Invariably at the end of a day when we added up all the requests for regulations, we wound up with total regulation. In the process of trying to become informed on the reasoning behind this, and the benefits of regulation, a number of us went around various parts of Canada.

The chairman of the commission and I went to Regina, specifically, and we looked into the operation of the regulated industry. We were quite horrified to find how extensive it was. When we talked to the chairman of the administrative group in Regina he said, well, we're just getting started; you haven't seen anything yet. And you follow through with that. That's what we're looking at here. We have independent businesses. Granted, they're getting pretty large. Some of them may be becoming too large and too concentrated, and I think we should watch that.

Nevertheless I wouldn't like to criticize what is happening just because the companies involved are large. In the oil business specifically, it would be pretty difficult to do the kind of thing the majors are doing and be very small. You couldn't do that. So we need size in order to get performance. I'm not defending bigness in itself, except as I raised the point in this House once before. While I don't want to defend bigness in itself, I don't want to condemn anybody because of bigness either. Because how do you get big? You can take that in a political way or in a business way.

If you put on a social, and it's a good social, people come. If it isn't very good, they don't come any more. Politically, there's only one way you could get big and that is because people want you to be that way. The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview has the option of heading a very large party in this province, without any restrictions, if he can sell his product. So I simply don't want to condemn bigness as it relates to industry, whether it's the oil industry or whatever. In order to grow to that size, they must have done a great many things right.

Having grown to the size and performing the services they do — in this instance marketing a commodity that almost everybody uses — I simply do not want to see us moving in, starting to regulate that business, and insisting that it be done a certain way. I think what we're looking at is a relatively temporary thing in any case, as it relates to the price war. Now the service aspect — the Member for Spirit River-Fairview mentioned some comments in a letter to the Journal warning against a loss of service. He referred to it on his own, and it's correct, that we shouldn't forget we need those kinds of services.

Except we have taken for granted in this industry that the sale of gasoline is synonymous with service. Because we've been in this kind of business, I can assure you it isn't necessarily so. Not only many of the large service stations, but the smaller service stations — you visualize this: you drive in and it's a one-man operation and that fellow is doing the service thing we're worrying about. He has to put down his tools, wipe off his hands, and walk out to the pump. He sells you 10 gallons of gasoline for which he gets 90 cents.

In the time he takes to do that and walk back in, his time loss at the labor rate we have today is greater than the 90 cents he's going to make selling that gasoline. At $15 an hour, which is a fairly standard labor rate today, he doesn't have to be gone from his service job very long, selling that gasoline and walking back in and getting back to his service. So it might very well be that we will see a divorcement of the service factor and the sale of gasoline factor. Today there isn't anything to stop a service-minded operator from going into selling strictly service.

And he will sell it in a continuous way rather than the 15 minutes of service, seven minutes of selling gasoline, 10 minutes of service kind of thing. This is being looked at. This is not a novel idea. In any event, Mr. Speaker, I think we should not be contemplating moving in, trying to distort by govern ment regulation private business as it is operating today, because I think it's operating very well. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to offer a few remarks on Bill 212.

As the Member for Spirit River-Fairview has pointed out, this bill asks us to take action to make a decision which would in fact require the divorcement of the retail gasoline market ing from the production and refining of that gasoline. Now, Mr. Speaker, that obviously leads to regula tion. This really isn't part of my main theme, but I am asking myself how the hon. member became so pragmatic that he could be asking today for regulation in this field, regulation we would require a great deal of, as he himself has suggested, when just a few

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1605 short days ago it was alleged to me that he was on the front steps of this same building with a red armband on, protesting against government regulations. MR. NOTLEY: A green armband. MR. YOUNG: A green armband? At least, Mr. Speaker . . . MR. NOTLEY: Orange and blue. MR. YOUNG: . . . there is no question that he was apparently on the steps. Mr.

Speaker, coming more directly to my main concern, I have for three years at least, if not four years, had occasion to meet with representatives of the Automotive Retailers' Association which repre sents many of the service station operators in Alber ta. I sympathize with the problem they face. As a businessman one has to sympathize with their prob lem. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me their problem, hasn't been correctly and completely analysed in most of the submissions which have been presented. The hon. Member for Sedgewick-Coronation has mentioned some facets of that problem, and I'd like to mention a few more.

But knowing where to start is difficult in this very complex business of gasoline retailing. First of all, let's identify one facet of the problem: a change in the style of marketing, a change in the method by which the marketing of gasoline has traditionally been accomplished. Mr. Speaker, I think the Automotive Retailers' Association has, and I would accept their data, quite correctly identified a very rapid change in the method by which gasoline is marketed, the change from service stations which are generally referred to as full-service operations to self-serve operations.

That change came about so abruptly that it was a very brutal shock to the industry. There's no question about that. The ARA submitted data which I accept, and which indicated to us that on December 4, 1974, there were 19 self-serves in the Edmonton area. February 26, 1975, about three months later, there were 30 self- serves. Now, Mr. Speaker, that has to be a very major shock to an industry such as gasoline market ing. It would be a shock if it happened that quickly in the grocery industry — the grocery industry as we used to know it.

Mind you, I'm not yet sufficiently long in the tooth that I remember the old-style corner grocery stores, but I have heard stories about them, I appreciate that they offered personalized service and all sorts of things which modern stores do not offer. Mr. Speaker, to get back to the service stations. If we analyse the economics of a service station, as I understand from discussions with the Automotive Retailers' Association, the service station operator has to attain a certain volume. If he attains that volume, we can call it the break-even point in economic terms.

That's the point at which he can have a viable operation, and his costs are met by the revenue he gets from selling gas. If his volume falls below that point he is losing money. If he can get his volume over that point he makes money. Now, if we accept the general theory that is alleged to be behind the so-called success of the self-serves, the self-serve attracts a portion of the market — the data varies between 20 per cent, whoever is advanc ing the case and for whatever point of view.

But if we accept that self-serves should be able to attract, let's say, 20 per cent of the market of gas customers, then immediately a self-serve goes into place, that station is going to drain off from all the adjacent full-service stations, a number of customers, a volume of gas sales, to impair the economics of each individual station in the area. So the construction of one self-serve station may indeed destroy the economics for five full-service stations, presuming that all the full-service stations are selling gas. I hold out that fact, because that's an assumption I'm not sure we should necessarily accept.

Mr. Speaker, to take the story one step further, the industry, as we well know, involves four or five major oil companies in terms of refining and marketing. Each of those companies has to assure that it retains its traditional share of the market. That again is a business objective from its point of view, and presumably it relates that to its traditional share of profits. Mr.

Speaker, if one service station of a self-serve type is injected and affects five full-service stations, and let's say that affects one type of station for each of the major oil suppliers, obviously there is going to be some reaction at head office in five different places. That's exactly what hit Edmonton. That's exactly what happened in Alberta, and in Ontario. All the other major companies reacted. They wanted to retain their share of the market. What did we see?

We saw an overbuilding — I have no basis on which to make the judgment except my own assessment of the situation — of self-serve service stations, because each company was in there trying to assure its share of the market. We can declaim the situation as much as we like, but I think that basically would be a fair assessment of what has happened. It has happened not only in the oil and gas industry but, as I have mentioned, in the grocery industry. I imagine we could find some other smaller, less visible industries to observe the same phenomenon.

Now, if that indeed is what's happened, the ques tion is: what is the status of the individual business men who are caught up in this situation? Is the situation grave enough? Have they been sufficiently unjustly dealt with by their contracts with their suppliers that we should make the decision, as we are being asked to do today, to force the divorcement of these oil companies from the retailing of gasoline? Mr. Speaker, my observation would be that the situation is not that severe.

First of all, we have the problem that the individual service station operator, of his own volition, makes an agreement with the wholesaler or with the distributor. I have heard many stories about how these agreements are not being kept, at least in the intent. Perhaps to the letter, but not in the intent. Now, of course, it depends who one talks to what the intent really was. If the letter is observed, it seems to me it's pretty difficult for a government or court to regulate on the intent.

So, in that respect, I who am in business in a very small way and sometimes feel the effects of major competi tors, feel that we businessmen will have to take our lumps. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the problem of whether what is developing is good or bad in the long

1606 ALBERTA HANSARD October 21, 1976 term from the point of gasoline marketing, we have to acknowledge that it does provide a greater range of choice to the individual automobile owner who can go out and either serve himself, presumably at a slightly lower price, or have somebody else fill his gas tank. In that respect, if we base our vote on the basis of consumer choice, then what's happened is a good thing. Consumers have more choices. On the other hand, if we say that's the situation only in the short term, that we will in fact go to a higher price situation in the long term, that's specula tion.

To assume that because there is an introduction of some self-serves, there will be higher prices in the long term, is to assume that the major oil companies will conduct themselves in a different manner in the long term than they have in the short term. In the past — if we are to believe the ARA and accept that these companies control the gasoline prices, because that has not been the pattern in the past — there has been a high degree of competition in terms of market share and market pricing.

So we have to make a different assumption about the future conduct of the oil companies than we can draw from past history. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the provision of those services which will disappear with the disappearance of the full-service station, one has to be a little careful. The hon. Member for Sedgewick-Coronation has questioned whether some of those services are as expert as they could be. Without really wishing to question how good they are, although I think one can question the quality of some of them, Mr. Speaker, I do have a bit of concern. This week, I took my car to my local service station.

Rather, my car had stopped in the street, so I phoned them and had it towed in. It had an electrical problem. When they got it going, Mr. Speaker, I talked to them about it and they said, well, you know, we really aren't very sure. So I took it to the dealer from whom I had bought the car. I found out that the motor mount had broken off. That had allowed the motor to drop and pulled the wires. Now, my local service station hadn't identified that the motor mount had broken off, a pretty major kind of breakdown and one which is fairly visibly identifiable to anybody who's been around a motor.

But I wouldn't want to suggest that service stations cannot and do not provide a very good range of services for the many ordinary and recurring problems of motorists. I would like to say this. Over the past three years, the places to which I take my automobiles for repair and maintenance have changed very substantially. I am now taking my Chevrolet automobiles to a former service station operator who has established himself in a maintenance business, restricted his line of endeavor, does not sell any gas, owns his own property, is off the main byway and thoroughfare, and does a very good service. MR.

GHITTER: And specializes in antiques. MR. YOUNG: Well, he also deals with some of my confreres who have new cars. Not all are members of the Legislature. AN HON. MEMBER: Or lawyers. MR. YOUNG: Or lawyers? Well . . . AN HON. MEMBER: Carry on. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I deal with another opera tor who formerly operated a service station, but now specializes in a different kind of automotive work. Mr.

Speaker, I think those businessmen have rightly assessed what was happening; have chosen to get out of the marketing area which is a specialized field; and have chosen to concentrate on the type of skill, the type of service, which they can best provide with their backgrounds. At least in the community in which I live, I think we are better served now than we were half a dozen years ago. I think we have been able to develop concentrated skills, specialized skills. These people certainly seem to have a sufficient volume of trade that they are doing very well.

In fact, I made a point of talking to one of them about what was happening. He said, I didn't realize it at the time, but the best thing that ever happened to me was when I left that service station and went out on my own and started this type of work. Mr. Speaker, I want to mention that because I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that the future of society and the future of our automobiles have gone down the tube just because a few self-serve gas stations have developed. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview quoted Ruth Wood, president of the con sumers' association.

I just noted one little quotation from Ruth Wood that the consumers "need to do some soul-searching". I agree with that statement. I think consumers should do some soul-searching. But I'm not so sure that because Ruth Wood says consumers need to do some soul-searching, that should necessarily be extended to where the Alberta Legislature needs legislative action in respect to this problem. In other words, I don't think that because the consumers aren't thinking very far ahead, in Ruth Wood's assessment, that necessarily means the Leg islature should be convinced to take some action to protect the consumers. Mr.

Speaker, the legislation before us would indi cate that we should go into a very highly regulated situation, that we should establish a board which would control prices, allocate supplies, and look at rental agreements. I can visualize it all now, Mr. Speaker. Anybody who's had any constituent com plaints about the rent control board just for domestic residential rents can visualize what that board would have to do when it comes to regulating the business relationship between a lessee and an oil company which owns the service station lot. Mr.

Speaker, if we think life is complicated with rent control as we have it now, I think even the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview would agree that we would soon have a small army of civil servants trying to analyse each agreement, trying to find out whether everything has been written into the agreement that could possibly develop. Mr. Speaker, I think I've covered the main points I wished to cover to express my disagreement with this particular proposal, even though I recognize the problem as it has affected individual businessmen. In saying that, Mr.

Speaker, they are not the only businessmen who are having difficulties. If we are to judge from the public outcry in Canada today, I don't think more regulation, if it isn't absolutely necessary, is the answer to the problems we face here.

October 21, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 1607 MR. GHITTER: Mr. Speaker, as tempting as it is to enter the debate and expose the shibboleth of free enterprise that has been expressed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, I beg leave to adjourn debate. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. member adjourn the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Bill 223

An Act to Amend the Age of Majority Act MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, it's a pleasure to rise and

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19761021
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L18 S2 19761021 1430 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ac017cfc9c1072751e428b8f6978e052ab15d289

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