Manitoba Committee Hansard — 15 April 1975 (Management Commission Committee, Sitting 1, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-ma1

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba HEARINGS OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON MUNIUPAL AFFAIRS Chairman Mr. John C. Gottfried, M.L.A. Constituency of Gimli 10:oo a.m., Tuesday, April15, 1975. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE 10:00 a. m., Tuesday, April 15, 1975 CHAIRMAN: Mr. John C. Gottfried. 1 MR. CLERK: Gentlemen, may I have your attention? May I have your attention please? The first order of business for this committee will be the election of your Chairman. Are there any nominations? Mr. Got tfried. Are there any further nominations? Hearing none, I would ask Mr. Gottfried to take the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, gentlemen, the first item of business will be the establish ment of the quorum for the Committee on Municipal Affairs. Do we have any suggestions?

Do we proceed on the regular basis of 50 percent plus one? Agreed? (Agreed) Then the committee will be established then as consisting of seven. The business for today is the consideration of Bill No. 9,

an Act to amend The Brandon Charter. We have on hand this morning three representatives from Brandon: the Mayor of Brandon, Mr. Gorrie; the Executive Director, Mr. Thompson; and Mr. Meighen, the solicitor; who are here I understand, not so much to make a presentation as to offer advice or sugges tions as requested. Is there anyone else in the audience who has a presentation to make or would like to make one this morning? Hearing none, then we'll proceed with the consideration of Bill -- (Interjection) --Yes. Mr. Green. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to direct some questions.

I don't know who these questions should be directed to but I am concerned with what the changes are - I mean, in what way is the golf course now going to be a public course? I understand that the city is buying what was previously a private golf course. Is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mayor Gorrie. MR. GORRIE: Yes, that is right, Mr. Green. This was formerly the Brandon Golf and Country Club - is now being purchased by the City for the liabilities. MR. GREEN: For the liabilities of the club? MR. GORRIE: Yes, the liabilities being a mortgage - a partially paid mortgage - some debentures to be acknowledged.

There are no shares. The shareholders. are not being recovered. MR. GREEN: Would the amount of the liabilities be realistically the value of the club? You feel that you're getting more than what the mortgage is .. . MR. GORRIE: Oh yes. Yes. The total of the liabilities is $328, 000. It is our con sidered opinion that the golf course, 18 very fine holes, plus the club facilities, the curling rink and the pro shop, we have not put a definite figure on, but I would estimate very conser vatively that we're talking of a million dollar asset. MR. GREEN: That's fine.

Now if I am a resident of Brandon, what do I now do to golf under the new regime? I'm not interested in the old. What do I do to golf at the club? What does the council have in mind? MR . GORRIE: Well it'll be completely a public course. There are no memberships as such. There are two ways that you as a citizen of Brandon could and will golf; that is, by paying a green fee. MR . GREEN: Of how much? MR. GORRIE: Pardon? MR. GREEN: Have you figured out the green fees yet? MR.

GORRIE: The recommendation which we considered last night is a $3. 00 eighteen-hole green fee and there's consideration also to what they call a "twilight fee" which permits you to go two hours before sunset at $2. 00. There will also be what we call a seasonal fee - not a membership, a seasonal fee. It's a prepaid seasonal fee which is the same as going out individually except you would prepay it at the beginning of the season. MR. GREEN: How much is the seasonal fee? MR. GORRIE: The seasonal fee will be $150.00. MR.

GREEN: Now my question is: will a seasonal golfer have any preference over a green fee golfer when you come to the clubhouse? MR. GORRIE: Absolutely none. No. MR. GREEN: In other words, it would be first come, first served.

2 April 15, 1975 MR . GORRIE: First come, first served, yes. MR . GREEN: The. seasonal fee gives no preferences to the green fee golfer. MR . GORRIE: Just the one thing, that you don't have to lay out your $3.00 each time you go; but none other. It's exactly the same. MR . GREEN: If you golf more than 50 times, you're ahead of the game, as we say. MR . GORRIE: That is right. If you're fortunate enough to be able to do that you may gain a little, yes. MR . GREEN: Fifty times, that would be every day for two months. MR . GORRIE: For most of the Manitoba summer I would say. MR .

GREEN: That's available to anybody at all. MR. GORRIE: Well it's considered - we talked a little about this last night, and I think anyone - and I'm sure most of you golf - you're pretty hard-pressed to get 50 rounds in a year if you, you know ... I think that's a pretty good average. MR . GREEN: I thank you for attributing that to myself, but I know some who golf much more than 50 times. MR . GORRIE: Do they? MR . GREEN: That's right. A MEMBER: They don't eat, but they golf. MR . GREEN: That really is the point that I . .

The green fee golfer will be entitled to exactly the same privileges as the seasonal golfer. MR . GORRIE: That is right, yes. MR . GREEN: And there will be no preference in terms of bookings or appointments or anything of that nature. MR . CHAIRMAN: Mr. Johannson. MR. JOHANNSON: That's the sort of question I was going to ask. Does the seasonal fee entitle the purchaser to bar facilities, to locker facilities or that sort of thing, which ordinarily come with a membership in a club? MR. GORRIE: No, we have not- the clubhouse which will be dealt with, we haven't yet come to an arrangement there.

But it's our recommendation, and our course of action probably will be to lease this to a separate operator who would not - so that you would merely go there as you would go to any other public or dining facility, so there would be no tie-in between the two. MR . CHAIRMAN: Mr. McKellar. MR . McKELLAR: Yes, there are a couple of questions I'd like to . . . You mentioned a $150 annual membership. Is that a family membership or is that an individual membership? MR . GORRIE: That's an individual. MR . McKELLAR: Individual? MR. GORRIE: That is right. Not a membership.

Again we're very specific on this; it's not a membership, it's a seasonal fee, that's ... MR. McKELLAR: Do you have a family fee? MR. GORRIE: I'd have to look for that. I just got through this report. Are you aware, Mr. Counsellor? -- (Interjection) -- No, the recommendation is a single m-embership, $150. 00. MR. McKELLAR: Do you have any special fee set out for, say, young people under 16 or ... ? MR. GORRIE: Yes, we have a student membership for $50.00. There will be limit on times. There will be a senior membership which is $85. 00, and this again, there is some restriction on the times.

So many seniors, if they are avid golfers, would probably buy the 150. 00 because they want to golf all the time. But a senior person if he so desires can buy a membership for $85.00, but must golf on a certain restricted time. MR. McKELLAR: Now one other question regarding the former Golf and Country Club. Has that been dissolved already? Is that gone into bankruptcy or . . . The golf and country club at the present time, where is it? What ... ? MR. GORRIE: I could direct this probably to Mr. Meighen. My

interpretation, and I could be wrong, is that it has not been dissolved. The Brandon Golf and Country Club as such will exist but they will have no assets once they have disposed of the assets. It still is a club. Is that a correct

interpretation, Mr. Meighen? I don't pretend to be a legal expert. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Meighen.

April 15, 1975 MR . MEIGHEN: Maybe I can answer that one. The Brandon Golf and Country Club still is in existence; it still is the owner of the property. Obviously the City can't make a 3 deal with them unless and until they have jurisdiction to do so by means of this bill. So that everything is just sitting tight as far as the corporation is concerned.

Once the bill is approved, a meeting of the shareholders, as I understand it, will be called and approval then sought for the transaction; and that it is hoped that the matter does not have to go into bank ruptcy, that the shareholders will approve the transfer on the basis that His Worship has indi cated, which will mean that the common shareholders and the preferred shareholders will not receive anything for their shares. But the debenture holders will be paid out. So that nothing can be done of a formal nature until the approval of this bill. MR.

McKELLAR: Then if they don't agree to this, does that create any problem? MR. MEIGHEN: There will be a bankruptcy obviously. MR. McKELLAR: I see, yes. That's fine. MR . CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Meighen. Mr. Johannson. MR . JOHANNSON: Oh I had a question for Mr. Meighen. What at present does the Brandon Golf and Country Club charge for a seasonal membership? MR . MEIGHEN: I can't tell you. I'm not a golfer. I think it's materially more than that. I think the green fees were about the same, but there was a membership there and I think it ran more than that amount. And they had family memberships and so on but ...

These are the figures that were suggested by a chartered accountant who made a study of the cash flow that might be acquired in order to keep the club above water. MR . CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shafransky. MR . SHAFRANSKY: I have a question about the people who buy seasonal green fees - you say $150.00. Winnipeg has a system where if you pay an extra $5. 00, I believe it used to be, that you can get a preferred time early in the morning, say a set time for Saturdays or Sundays.

There's a number of golfers that can, by paying the extra $5. 00, that they are going to start out at 6:00 o'clock Saturday morning or 7:00 o'clock, that up to a certain period of time in the morning that they can get on and be assured that they will be golfing before the rest of the golfers come on the scene. Is that .. . ? Pardon? MR. GREEN: (not on microphone) .. . Mr. Shafransky ... information, that it is not exactly as he has put it although there is a provision ... you people may find yourselves in the same boat.

If you wanted to book a place on Sunday morning, you used to have to come on Saturday at 6:00 o'clock in the morning and wait in line to get your booking, and the same people appeared every Saturday. So what Winnipeg did was for certain hours they would accept a $20.00 booking fee. The four golfers would then have to be there for that booking on Sunday morning, every morning at the same time. And again, that was first come first served. You may not have that problem. It's only if they are faced with it, because it meant that a person had to get up at 6:00 o'clock in the morning to book for Sunday, the next day.

They have facilitated that by having a block booking. MR. MEIGHEN: I suppose that's really a management problem that you can't foresee at this stage until you know what your experience is going to be, and of course if we don't get going until mid-June there's going to be lots of problems. MR. GREEN: We're going to try and get you going sooner. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Green, do you have any further questions? MR. GORRIE: Excuse me. I could answer that in some detail if you wish. We antici pate some bookings. MR. GREEN: I'm sure that you'll handle it capably. MR. CHAIRMAN: Will you remain a moment? Mr.

McGill, I believe you have a question to direct. MR. McGILL: ... the question I had was about what the fees are presently or what they were when the country club was operating. It's rather a complicated structure with a basic fee that provided for social privileges, plus golfing, plus curling, plus swimming, plus tennis, and they were added up. But it seems to me the basic single fee for golf was around $185. 00. MR. CHAIRMAN: If there are no further questions we will proceed with the consider ation of the bill. First we have

Section 1, 49P ( 1) -- pass? Mr. McGill. MR. McGILL : There is an amendment there to the wording of

Section 49P (1) and the

4 April 15, 1975 (MR. McG ILL cont'd) ... .. amendment is a rather simple one. It simply puts some restrictions on the broadness of this term, and I will read it to you. The motion is that the proposed subsection 49P ( 1) of The Brandon Charter as set out in

Section 1 of Bill 9 be amended by adding thereto immediately before the words "the city" in the first line thereof, the words "subject to the provisions of The Municipal Act with respect to the acquisition of property." MR . CHAffiMAN: You have heard the motion. Is there any discussion? MRo F. JOHNSTON: I would so move, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAffiMAN: Fine. You have heard the motion then as moved by Mr. Johnston. Is there any discussion? Everyone agreed? (Agreed) (T he remainder of Bill No. 9 was read and passed). Bill be reported. MRo MILLER: I move committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-ma1
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf ma1.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ac0ca51495a9f5d7e59ae10d8489acaec5e115b0

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