Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, March 7. 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL N.umber 21

March 7, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 494 JM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! As mentioned yesterday~it being education week we are honoured today to have three groups with us in the galleries. I would like to welcome twenty-eight grade Vll student  from Bay Roberts Elementary School, Bay Roberts,with their teacher Mrs. Marjorie Roache; nine grade Vlll(C} students from Woodland Junior High, Trinity BaY,with their teacher Miss Sharon Babb and seventy grade V students from Woodland Elementary in Dildo, Trinity Bay,with their teachers Mr. John Boone and Mr.

Roland Cranford, On behalf of all the hon, members I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit here is very interesting. HON. G.R. OTTENHEIMER(MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, the construction of a second oil refinery at Come by Chance as announced by the Premier will mean thousands of additional employment opportunities for Newfoundlanders. The govermnent is determined that training progra11111es will be available so that Newfoundlanders will be able to take maximum advantage of these employment opportunities.

In this regard I am pleased to announce that meetings have been arranged for . . . the week of March 26 involving the provincial Departments of Education, and Manpower and Industrial Relations, the nivision of vocational and Technical Training, the College of Trades and Technology, the College of Fisheries, Memorial University of Newfoundland, the Federal Department of Manpower and representatives of the Shaheen Organization.

The purpose of the meeting is as follows: (1) to forecast as accurately as possible the manpower needs and skilled labour force required for the construction of a second refinery; to do the same, that is forecast manpower and skilled labour needs for the permanent work force at both refineries; to plan training programmes and sandwich courses necessary to assure that a sufficient number of Newfoundlanders will be trained to take maximum 1521

March 7, 1973 Tape no. 495 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Ottenheimer. advantage of these employment opportunities. Next to allocate specific training programmes to those institutions beat prerared in terms of staff and facilities and best situated geographically to offer the programmes necessary. Next to ascertain the province's training requirements in terms of instructors necessary to implement the above and to establish a time-frame so that as far as possible skilled manpower will be available when it is required.

In the past, residents of the province have been deprived of opport~nities for gainful employment because of insufficient co-ordination between the manpower training programmes and the needs of industry. The meetings arranged for later this month will be the first in a series of auch seminars and it is hoped that through this procedure it will be possible to synchronize training programmes and manpower needs. I have a copy to be tabled, copie~ for the opposition and copies for the press. HON. DR. A. T.

ROWE (Minister of Health): When the Medicare Programme commenced four years ago on April 1, 1969, an arrangement was made between the Newfoundland M~dical As~ociation and government to the effect that government would pay doctors ninety per cent of the fees established by the association in the year 1967. Since 1967 there has been no general increase in the fees paid to doctors, although the cost of living has gone up just over twenty per cent.

Generally speaking salaries, fees and incomes of everybody, whether they are self-employod or working for someone else, have increased during the past four years in an endeavour to keep pace with the rising living costs. Sometime a,10 the Newfoundland Medical Association commenced talks with the Newfoundl~nd Medical Care Commission regarding a new fee structure which would include a general review of the position in other provinces as it applied to medical fees being paid to general practitioners and to some medical Apecialists. Although doctors in Newfoundland rate high, as far as overall 1522

March 7, 1973 Tape no. 495 Page 2 - MRW payments are concemed for members of the medical profession in Canada, a iarge factor in the higher incomes here is that there are many more patients per doctor than there are in most of the other provinces, While the Newfoundland doctor is in the higher paid bracket of the Medical Profession of Canada, he is alo the hardest pressed physician and this can only be rectified by increasing the number of doctors which will result in lower individual incomes.

A study of the doctor/patient ratio in the provinces shows Newfoundland with one doctor per twelve hundred and sixty people; Nova Scotia, with one doctor to nine hundred and fifty-five; New Brunswick, our closest, one doctor to twelve hundred and forty-four; Prince Edward Island, one doctor to twelve hundred and nine; Alberta, one doctor to nine hundred; Saskatchewan, one doctor to one thousand; Manitoba, one doctor to nine hundred and twenty-six; British Columbia, one doctor to seven hundred and forty-six; Ontario, one doctor to eight hundred and thirty-nine; Quebec, one doctor to nine hundred and sixty-one.

As a result of discussions between the Newfoundland Medical Association and Newfoundland Medical Care Commission rece~tly completed, . . the new arrangement will provide an increase of about 4. 7 per cent in payments to segments of the profession; particularly general practitioners and medical specialists.for a total increase of $800,000, an amount which is on target with the estimates prepared, by the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission.for government.

In addition as a result of an arrangement made in 1970, a system of general proration was applied with the understanding that this would be reviewed when the new fee

schedule was reviewed, It has, therefore, been decided to institute a method of selective proration whereby each doctor's income and pattern of practice is studied and if his profile is found to vary to any great degree from his colleagues in similar practice and without good reason, then his income will be prorated. This is effective, January, 1973, the 4.7 increase, effective April, 1973, The matter of proration 1s very important. The type of proration brought in by the previous administration was not fair. 1523

March 7, 1973 Tape no. 495 Pagel It was a blunt instrument which bludgeoned the innocent with the others. If a man were the only specialist of ht• kind in the ialand and if he were working abnormally long hour  or if hi1 practice location made it so that he had no aaaociatea to help him in other type• of practice, although he was doing a needed job, his volume of vork,through no fault of his own,was very high and he was consequently prorated after a certain level. What I have approved now is individual selective proration.

That is where the computer suggests that a doctor ia seeing too many patients in the time available, that is too many to be able to be giving them the attention they need or doing too many visits for a certain complaint, c0111pared with the average doctor, then he would be prorated. There will be two results to this. In the first place there will be considerable decreased earnings directly becau~e of the proration of doctors who are so identified. I am inclined to think that this will have much more widespread an effect and produce more savings financially.

O ther doc tors who are inclined,perhaps,to do things that they should not will take note and desist. The exact financial effects I cannot predict but I am hopeful they will be equal or even better than mass proration. I am watching this closely and in the months ahead will be able to see the results. We have the active co-operation of the Newfoundland Medical Association in this and both they and the government are very concerned to see that the scheme works properly, economically and is not abused.

The difficulty of not only recruitinp, doctors into Newfoundland but retaining them, necessitates that our payments must follow the schedules applying in at least the other Atlantic Provinces. Fee increases have become effective recently in other provinces as follows: British Columbia 6.5 per cent; Alberta, 6 per cent; Ontario, 4.5 per cent; Saskatchewan, 8 per cent; Nova Scotia, 15 per cent; Manitoba are still negotiatinE and also I understand the other three provinces. In revJewing these figures for increases granted to medical doctors 1524

March 7, 19 73 Tape no. 495 Page 4 in the other provinces, it will be seen that the new one now ~ranted to those in Newfoundland is one of the smallest. In my opinion the greatest health problem in Newfourtdland today is the shortage of doctors. The reason doctors' incomes are high is because of the shortage of doctors. The reson why peole have to wait for appointments is because of the shortage of doctors. The reason patients have to wait for hours in doctors' waiting rooms is because of the shortage of doctors.

The reason Newfoundland cannot fill all the medical posts and practices is because of the shortage of doctors. In the Canadian Medical Journal which is a twice monthly publication of the Canadian Medical Association, there is a

section here: "Job Opportunities For Doctors in Canada." In this particular issue there are no•. leas than ,over one hundred, in actual fact one hundred and twenty-nine advertisements per doctors. If you look at some of these, it is difficult to know how doctors could resist for instance: ''medical doctors needed for U.S.A., beautiful, friendly towns, want many Canadian doctors, general practitioners and specialists, very high dollar pay, paid expenses an~ benefits; physicians all fee paid, exclusive positions, write confidentially.

For Northern Ontario, to join an established number of practices in fifty designated, underserviced areas of Ontario, guffranteed annual income, basic $33,000!' ' The opportunities are existent in every province of Canada for doctors. Now for years Newfoundland has been a stepping stone for doctors ~ho would pause here and after a few months or a year travel on to the greener pastures of the richer provinces.

If it is my mandate to find doctors to overcome these problems that I have outlined (I fully believe t~at it is) then I think that an expenditure of public funds leading to an increase of 4.7 per cent in income and more important the change and method of proration is amply and fully jm,tifed on behalf of thP. 'People of tl-• people of the Province of Newfoundland. 1525

Much 7, 1971 T•11• no. .JIR. IOBDTB: Hr. Speaker, under th• rule  of the Howta I•• not l'•t'llitted to debate th• •t-tem@nt at tht~ point 10 1 •hall not. That .... 5 1n effect mean• that I ahall mako no co11Mnt upon tt becau11 th• mini•t•~ touched ao many mattera and in auch confuaed fuhion that it i• impoaaibla to make a comment that is not a debate. I think all I should say is that the minister is. (I am judging only from his statement which is all I know about) obviously confused and on the defensive. He obviously knows that he is doing the wrong thing. I cannot go beyond that now, Mr.

Speaker, because under the rules I cannot debate. I eerve notice now that when the minister appears before the committee with his estimates, we shall go into this at some length. The minister will have the opportunity then to elaborate upon some of the astounding statements he has made and I shall have the opportunity to state 1526

March 7, 1973 Tape 496 IB-1 aome questions. The need for doctors is known to anybody who has had any connection with the health professions in Newfoundland. That is fine but the minister's moves, I submit, will do nothing except add to the cost of the salaries. No matter how reasonable the increase may be - and I do not quarrel with that - the fact remains that we are now going to spend an extra $800,000 a year on doctors and I submit that this will not increase by one percent the number of doctors coming to this province. NOTICE OF MOTIONS MR. P, S. THOMS: Mr, Speaker, I ~ive notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS during the first session of the thirty-sixth r-.eneral Assembly, the present Administration saw fit to end the mothers' allowance; and

WHEREAS the present Administration said, its primary reason for ceasing to pay this allowance to the mothers of school children was the fact that the G~vemment of Canada intended to introduce the Family Income Security Progra11111e; and

WHEREAS both the Premier and the Minister of Finance said publically that if the said programme was not introduced that they would reinstate the mothers' allowance; and

WHEREAS the Family Income Security was not implemented; and

WHEREAS the mothers of Newfoundland have need of this allowance to help to meet the expenses of sending their children to school; and

WHEREAS the C..overnment of Canada by changing the equalization formula,have given the r-.overnment of Newfoundland an additional $24,000,000 for the fiscal year beginning on the first of April, 1973. NOW THEREFORF: Bt: IT RF.SOLVED that this llouse 18 of the opinion that the presrnt Adminl•tration shou1d fmmrdfnte1y mnk~ provtnfon to rp­ in111tnte the mother  1 allowance ; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVF.D that such payment be retroactive to the beginning of the 1972-1973 school year. 1527

March 7, 1973 Tape 496 IB-2 HON, WILLIAM W. MARSHALL1 (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): On a point of order, Mr, R~••ker, I would aubmit, Mr. Speaker, that the reeolutioa •• eubmitted by the honourable the member for Bonaviata North ia out of order on two grounds, Nunber (1) the recitals themselves are argumentative but moat importantly it calls for the expenditure of public money which it ia not possible to bring in under Private Members' Bill$. It is only the government that can bring forth meaeures requiring· the government to &pend money, MR. EDWARD ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order. Whether or not the recitals are argumentative or statements of fact is a matter for Your Honour to decide as Your Honour will and Your Honour has. The second point is superfluous and specious because the resolution does not call for the expenditure of funds. Its records the opinion of the House, Sir. The opinion of this House ia not expenditure of funds, I submit the gentleman raised the point simply because he does .not want the matter debated. MR, SPEAKER: I shall take the. resoluti9n ·under adviaement .and rule on it later, hopefully later this afternoon. HON.

JOSEPH ROUSSEAU: (~INISTER OF REHABILITATION A..~D RECREATION): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce the following bill; A bill, "An Act Respecting Allowances For Certain People In Private Homes For Special Care." HON. C,ORDON nAWE:(MINJSTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): I give notice that on tomorrow 1 will ask leave of the House to introduce; A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Elevators Act." RON. m~. T . r.. P'I\RRF.L_J. : (MTNJSTF.R OF TRAN~PORTATION AND CO~JCATION): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that J will on tomorrow aak leave of the 11,ouae to introduce the following; A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act." ANSWERS TO QUE~TIONS ·HON. THOMAS V. HICKEY: (!-11NISTF.R OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): Mr. 1528

March 7, 1973 Tape 496 IB-3 Speaker, I have the answar to the question (106) on the Order Paper, March 5, asked by the honourable member for Twillingate, question (80) on the Order Paper March lst,aince last Friday,by the honourable member from Twillingate. HON. JIM REID: (MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table in the Rouse, the honourable Rouse, the answer to question (103) on the Order Paper dated March 5 ,asked by honourable member from White Bay South and answer to question(51) on the Order Paper dated February 26 , asked by the honourable member from White Bay South and answer to question (52) on the Order Paper dated February 26 asked by the honourable member for White Bay North and answer to question (53) on the Order Paper dated February 26 , asked by the honourable member for White Bay North and answer to question (54) on the Order Paper dated February 26 , asked by the honourable member for White Bay North and answer to question (55) on the Order Paper dated February 26 , asked by the honourable member for White Bay North.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. F. ROWE:Mr, Speaker, I would like to address a question to the honourable the Minist.,r of Municipal Affairs and Houaing. Since o report of the former Department of Community nnd Social Development regarding the installation of water systems in unincorporated areas atotes thAL until such time as a firm policy can be formulated, St. Hnrbes North should remain at s standstill. Can the minister inform the House as to the progress of the formulation of any policy that will help unincorporated areas to get a water system? MR.

SPEAKER: I think that it is the type of question that should be placed on the Order Paper. HON. HAROJ.n A .COi.LINS: (f-'INISTf.R Of' MIJNTr.trAr. Al<FAJRS ANO IIOIJSJN_<",l_; l can tell the honourable memher from St. Horbes North that my offJCJtlR ere look in~ at the prohlem 1n St. Jlarhe11 North and other area11 where there are communtt1e11 which are not incorporated and hopefully they will be able 1529

March 7 • 1973 T1pe 49(1 n-4 to cnnounc• • policy in dua cour••• M!~ _!Q!!1!.:. Th• 11uut1nn, Hr. SpHk r. Wttl. th• mS.nhtor fndS.cat• to the Hou• what othar provinetal ~l1trlct1 have had a eompl•t• atoppage to the construction of vat r yetem  in their co11111unitiee? 'MF .• ROBERTS: 'Mr. Speaker, before we go into orders of the day, I do not have a question but I wonder if I may be permitted to move a motion, Perhaps the Premier would wish to move it and I should second it?

There died on Friday or Saturday, I am not sure, perhaps Monday or Tuesday, at New Harbour in Trinity Bay,a gentleman who'a funeral is today, Mr. Ecbnund Charles Cranford. ~r. Cranford was one of the men who served in the National ConventiMl. He was the member for Trinity Centre. Mr. Cranford was an elderly gentleman, eighty­ seven years of sge when he died. As far as I know his membership in the National ·convention was his only active involvement in elective politics but Sir, that in itself is enough to qualify a man to be one of the leaders of Newfoundland.

His death, Sir, reduces by yet another the very small group of men left - I am not sure how many men are left alive who served in the Convention. Mr. Charles Ballam who of course is still very nruch with us. There are _ a-number of others. There are not many men left alive, Mr. Speaker, who served in the National Convention. It is hard to remember that really it was only twenty-seven, twenty-eight years ago the National Convention was elected. Just in that short a time, not only have these men all passed from public life hut the last of the men to serve in public life was the late Rill Keour,h, the honourable W.

J. Keough,who was in this House until hiR death two or three years a~o,excluding of course - I am sorry - Mr. ~m11l.lwood who \..'RS in this !louse until he retired on the H!Cond of March, 1972. I am •orry, thf'! gentleman from Horhour Grace, would he please. for a minute - this is a very, you know it is a very dcodly aeriouR matter. It is a matter of some comment that very few of these men are left, Sir. I can nRme Mr. Michael llarrinp;ton. He was a member of 1530

March 7, 1973 Tape 496 IB-5 the National Convention. Mr. Burt Butt who was a member of the Rational Convention and Mr. Edgar L. Hickman, he was a member of the''National Convention, Mr. Charles Ballam and there are other honourable gentlemen. We may name others. I would move, Sir, or if the Premier wishes I will second his motion that the Clerk of the House or Your Honour write to Mr. Cranford's family to express our regret and to take note of the fact that we have passed a motion with regret of the death of a man who was one of the leaders of Newfoundland. HON. FRANK n. MOORES: (PREMIER): ~r.

Speaker, on occasions like this when people like ~r. Cranford die who played a very meaningful role in the public of Newfoundland, it is a sad occasion. There are not, as the Leader of the Opposition said in moving the motion, many of these people left or many people left who initiated Confederation with Canada. I did not know Mr. Cranford 1531

March 7, 1973 Tape 497 peraonally and I can only say that it giv•• me not pleasure but certainly as Premier only too gladly am I willing to aecond this particular motion I ask you, Sir, to pass on our deepest aympathy and to thank those people who,still aurvived,from that particular historic occasion for the tremendous contribution JM - 1 that they made in bringing this province into the great confederation. I thank the Leader of the Opposition for making this motion today,as well. On motion, resolution carried. MR.. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the hon. Minister of Education.

Since just this morning in one of the daily newspapers the President of the university publicly defined a regional and a community college. Wlll the minister indicate whether or not these

definitions given by the president are consistenet with the thinking of his own administration or are we to assume that the president is the government's spokesman on education now? MR.. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I ~ould raise a point of order there and point out that I will not answer the question. I believe it is out of order and it would be improper for me to comment upon opinions and

definitions, presumably they are opinions, by the people outside the legislature. MR.. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. member for Port au Port. Since a community college,as defined by the president~ has nothing to do with the university at all.I ask the hon. member why he is submitting a report or a brief to the university regarding the policy and the curriculum of a community college for Stephenville. MR. SPEAKER: I find this question out of order . as it can be placed on the order paper. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. Premier indicate to the House if the government have received any offers to purchase the steel plant down at the Octagon? 1532

March 7, 1973 Tape 497 JM - 2 MR. MOORES: Would you repeat the question,please? MR. NEARY: Would the hon. Premier indicate to the House whether or not the government have received offers for the purchase of the steel plant at the Octagon. MR. MOORES: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROWE(F.B.)"i Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. the Minister of Education. Could the hon. Minister of Education define the difference between a vocational school and a community college? MR. OTTENUEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, in speaking on the estimates I would be glad to discuss these things but I do think oral questions at this are on matters of some urgency, that the question of defining various institutions is not certainly by custom recognized as a legitimate line of questioning. I would not wish to get into a series of

definitions of vocational education, technical, continuing, coumunity, junior, ad infinitum, Sir. I do not think that giving

definitions is the purpose of the question period. MR.ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, in view of all the announcements that are being made by various people concerning community and regional colleges, can the minister indicate if there are any long-range plans beinr, developed for other areas of the province such as Labrador, the South Coast and Central Newfoundland regarding regional colleges? MR. OTTENIIEIMER: That I certainly can answer, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, one of the specific terms of reference of the task force is in the area of continuing education, accessibility to post-secondary, accessibility to other educational courses and to a b£oad range of social needs, certainly not all academic and not all educational, what is usually understood by that term,and this is under study with the task force and under study in the Department of Education. MR. NF.ARY: ---- Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. Premier gave me an off-the- cuff nnflWf!r to tin? fJllrAtlo11 thnt 1 put to him on thr At~•rl plnnl rhc,rr I r · • 1 'l .J .. , •

March 7, 1973 Tap• 497 JH - 3 a moment ago but I wonder if the Premier would undertake to find out for aure if the government have received any offer• to purchaae or take over or operate the ateel mill. Mil. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I most certainly will and if there are any offers that are meaningful this Home will be made aware of them. There are no offers of an consequence that I know of,of any substance that are before the government at this time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon.

Minister of Social Services would indicate to the Houee,now that the Liberal Government in Ottawa has granted a $25.00 a month increa1e in the federal old age pension, will the Minister of Social Service• tell the Houee whether it 1• the intention of hi• department to continue the provincial assistance of $30.00 per month to the spouse of an old age pensioner who has not yet reached the age of sixty-five and therefore does not qualify for the old age penaion? In other words, Mr.

Speaker, will the provincial assistance be stacked on top of the federal old age pension where only one member of the family qualifies for the federal allowance? MR. MURPHY: Is that for me? HR. NEARY: Wake up, boy. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question we will still continue to serve the function that we are designed for and that is to serve the needs of the people. Our policies will be made known at an appropriate time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that does not answer the question. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries?

Can the minister inform the House what success the dragger,"Boston York" is having with experimental fishing up off the Coast of LRbrador in ice - which is jointly chartered by the Fishery Products Federal and Provincial Governments? HR. CIIF.ESEMAN: Yes, Hr. Speaker, in answer to the question .of the hon. 1534

March 7, 1973 Tape 497 JM - 4 member for Fogo, on the fir t trip of the boat,I believe it was twenty­ three days, I am subject to correction on that, the ice condition& were extremely heavy. It was,a  member are no doubt aware,the first try in this sort of fishing conditions.however the voyage itself. Howev~r. I think it could be tenned to be reasonably successful. Approximately 400,000 pounds of fish were obtained. I understand that the boat is now on the second trial fishing voyage.

But,generally speaking,the ice had been considerably heavier than had been anticipated but they did manage to fish although not as far north as they would have wished to at the time. MR. WINSOR: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister know which area the ship is operating in and supplementary to that, what proportion of the charter is the provincial government involved in? MR. CHEESEMAN: I have the daily reports down in my office and I would be glad to make the exact areas known to the House. I will table that information later.

As far as the provincial government's involvement in the venture. this does not come into play until such time as the whole chartered tenn has been ~ompl~ted. money has been determined to have been lost, that is the fish landed would not pay for the cost,the federal govenunen·t will then participate in any such loss to the extent of, (and I am speaking from memory now, again I have the information) I believe it is $250,000 and I am subject to correction on that ~t this moment because I am speaking from memory.

The provincial government is then in an agreement to pick up any deficit that remains beyond that point,to a maximwn of $75,000. In other words,in the first instance if the "Boston York" in her experimental fishing pays for herself,there would be neither federal nor provincial money.

If after the voyage have been completed,the federal government had put in anything up to $250,000 (if in fact thnt 111 thC! corroct r1,iurc now) than nP,aln the, rrovinc-inl government would not be called on to put in anything but if there 'Jere A loBl!I beyond $250,000 and whatever amount that was,up to $75,000 would be paid by the 15~5

March 7, 1973 Tape 497 provincial government.but it i• hoped that there will be neither federal nor provincial money required to pick up any deficit • JM - 5 MR. WINSOR: So vhat the hon. minister is saying is that the provincial government can only be involved up to the maximum of $75,000 if there is any loss in the venture. HR. CHEESEMAN: If there is a loss beyond that which the federal government have already agreed to pick up,which is,a I said,subject to correction but I am reasonably certain it is $250,000, that would have to happen first before ve would have to put in anything. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have to get back to the tired, sleepy, old Minister of Social Services again and ask the minister if he is aware that the old age pension - MR. MURPHY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. NEARY: What is the point of order? MR. MURPHY: AddreBS a minister vith respect. MR. NEARY: Yea, I will bov and acrare to him, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! If the hon. member for Bell Island has a question would he proceed. MR. NEARY: I have no intention of bowing and craping to the hon. minister,Sir. Is the hon. minister aware - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, could I ask a question please? Ia the hon. minister aware that the federal old age pension will be increased as of April 1, 1973 and if so, what will become of the provincial old age assistance? Will it be continued or will it be dropped? This is quite important. 1536

March 7, 1973 Tape 498 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker, because time is runnin~ out. ~. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Bell Island is entitled to ask a question but not make a speech after he has asked his question. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, AN HON. MF.mER: Inaudible. 1"R. RORF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, may I speak to the point of order without interruption from the sleepy and tired minister. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please. The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. MURPHY: When the time comes everybody will know about it. MR. NEARY: The time is now. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, may I speak - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: I mean if the honourable gentleman for St. John's Centre does not know the rules, he should learn them, Sir, as best he can, if he can. To the point of order, Sir, I submit that the honourable the House Leader is being much too hasty. The honourable member for Bell Island was •just merely stating his question. He knows the rules. He will not launch into a debate on this •. All he asked was a question. He was merely aayin~ the time has come. Are the ministery going to act? MR. NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable minister does not have the answer to the question would he get the answer for the House? MR. SPF.AKER: I would like to remind all honourable members that they should refrain from dehatinr, and making speeches when asking questions. I feel that perhaps the question of the hon member for Bell Island is out of order because he has already asked the same question before. MR. NFARY: It was a different question altogether, Mr. Speaker. The second question is a supplementary question that I asked the minister. Mr.

Speaker, 1,; he aware that the old np,e pensic>n. thr ferlerol old a1te pcn,lion in p;oin~ to ht'! 1ncr<111ned thei let. nr Aprt I, nr.xl month. tl,e 1st. of April 1973? If he is aware of thia,will the roverrunent be cont1nuJ .ng 1537

Karch 7, 1973 Tape 498 PK - 2 to pay the S30.00 old age assistance, provincial aaai tance to the old -«@ p@n1f~r1? Th@ mfn11t•r ha1 not nw•r•d the que1tton. ~Js~_rJry_: l do not tnt•nd to, MR._~ffRY: The mini1ter ••Y• he doe not intend to, What arrogance! What arrogance, Mr. Speaker. ~~EAKER: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable member for Labrador South. MR. M, MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, 1 have a question that 1 would like to direct to the ~inis~er of Highways. Can the honourable minister inform the House what steps have been taken to open the highway to Red Bay? MR.

FARRELL: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, MR. MARTIN: To Red Bay. MR. FAF~ELL: J gave some answers on this and I gave assurance to the House yesterday that we will be opening the road to Red Bay,weather pennitting,and 1 initiated instructions today to that effect, ORDERS OF THF. DAY MR. SPF.AKF.R: We shall continue with motion (10), 1 think the honourable member for St. John's East adjourned the debate last night, MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, pity it is really that the time of this honourable House is to be further taken up with a resolution of this nature. because with respect to the remarks made by the honourable the member for Bell Island and the honourable member for St, Barbe North, over the succeeding two weeks, I think it can be truly said that never before has so little been said about so much in relation to this debate on Mr. McLean. The memher for Bell Island as a matter of fact over the past week, . Hr. Speaker, wa11 really I thfnk crying for mercy.

The honourable member for Bell Isl and. who introduced thiA resolution ,i.n the first 1.nstance, said he would like to see the McLean motion off the Order Paper so that he could get on and brin~ on another motion, because a member is only allowed to have one motion on the Order Paper at a time, So I think then, Mr. Speaker, 1538

March 7, 1973 Tape 498 PK - 3 by th••• remarks the honourable member for Rell Island is really attemptin~ to •tart to beat a retrea~fts well he may Jrom the specious, silly argmnents that have been bouflht up in this House with respect to th1R particular resolution. We •hould not have to occupy the time of this House of Assemhly with the remarks either of the honourable member for Bell Island or the honourahle member for St. Barbe North.

As a matter of fact all members in thiR honourable House ought to hang their heads in shame that a motion of this nature and the type of debate that has gone on that we are occupying our time waa rather refreshinr, ,over the past week ,to see this House occupied with such matters as regulation of collection agencies, as matters with respect to the termination of wages when industries go out of busi.ness, landlord and tenant re~ulations. we had to come back to this a~afn today. In actual fact, Mr.

Speaker, I would say that the memhers of the opposition are _ well they should be, very, very embarrassed by this particular resolution that they have bought up which was going to be one of their b:f.g guns and their big arms that was going to defeat this govemment and cause an exodus across the House, which was going to bring us down to our knees because of the great scandal under which we laboured.

Because of the inuendoes that have been made from time to time and because of the seamy little hints that have been made both in the news media, by the members of the opposition and in this House,it is necessary to deal with the points raised by the member for Bell Island and also hy the member for St. Barbe North. As I say, Your Honour, I apologize to the House for havinr, to 1,.•aste the time again hut it {s necessary when stones are cast to at least put up a shield to try to protect oneself.

One of the great sins and transgressions with respect to the involvement of McLean enterprises was supposedly the fact that NACOM Limited, the company which ie operated by Mr. Georr,e McLean,was not re~istered in the province. We were supposed to 11ea something wrong and bad and sPamy in thiR, that this was something that made the whole situation unclean 1539

Huch 7, 1'>73 Tape 49A pl( - 4 and nHty iand bruthh,in 1hort and w, 111houl<1 not ho involved in it and we are ra1ntod tho am• colour•• the pr•viou  adminiatratinn with reapect to it. And what nonsense is that? NACOM Limited is a company that is incorporated I believe in the Province of Ontario. There have been 1 ·N 11 nU111ber of companies, many, many companies that have existed here and carried on business in this province without having registered under the Companies Act.

The fact that NACOM Limited may or may not be re~istered has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of its work,neither with the wisdom nor lack of wisdom of this government in engaging the services. Another point bought up,which was bought up for the purpose of casting a li~ht on or a bad li~ht on this present administration was the question of the $500 which was allegedly charged with respect to pictures that appeared in a pamphlet that was used for the purpose of tourist development, that was made by the McLean organization.

Now the pictures where I believe of the honourable the Premier and the ~linister of Finance and the Mi~ister of Public Works, I am not sure. MR. CROSHIF.'. I did not get there. MR.

MARSHALL: Well the hon~urable Mi?ister of Finance was not there, but I think it was the honourable the Premier and the honourable the Minister of F.conomic Development then who is now the Minister of Public Works, I think that probably $500 is perhaps not too great a price to pay for the picture of our Premier, I know the people on the other aide of this House at another time and oth~r climb would have ~ladly paid much more than $500 for a picture of the Premier of the day. But the fact of the matter is this, Mr. Speaker, ' AN HON, MF1-IJ3ER: In 3-D. MR.

MARSHAU.: In 3-D behind barrels of fish and what have you, before the barrels caved in on top of them, But, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this; We have found and this is a ~reat revelation, great so that members of the opposition had better 15L} Q

March 7, 1973 Tape 498 PK - 5 ait up and heed it1 that their was an invoice allegedly incorrectly aent by the McLean organization to the government. Now is that a crime? The 'honourable member for Bell Island or the honourable member for 'l'willingate sent in an invoice to the government, the crime is whether the government pays it or not. The government ignored it. It made an inquiry at the time and found that the invoice had been sent in error. Rut the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the government did not, would not and had absolutely no intention whatsoever of paying the amount of the invoice.

So the rug comes out from underneath th, argument, the specious ar~ument of the opposition on that point. The next thing was the fact that alle~edly 80,000 copies of this great publication were taken out in the dead of ni~ht to Robin Hood Bay and some person came up with a match and ignited them and they went up in flames, in other words they were not used. Well, Mr. Speaker, to that I can say that the government could not give one piffle as to really what happened to them because the government did not in fact pay one single solitary dollar, dime, Tiickel or cent for this particular publication.

In actual fact we were glad to see this publication beinr, used. It was brought together by the McLea~ ~rganiza~ion as a self-liquidating project,where they solicited advertising from private enterprise and received advertising from private enterprise for the purpose of promotion of tourist potential. It was exactly the same thing, Mr. Speaker, as a project by "Adlantic Advocate" . no relationship to the government at all, no monies expended by the government. So,were is the great sin there? 15~1

March 7, 1973 Tcap• No. 499 NM - l MR. MARSHALL: The honourahle the member for Bell Island made allegations that ~r. McLean went out or one of his employees, seeking advertisements and accusing people of being Liberal if they did not purchase t.he ~~vertiaements, I have hear people being accused of being Liberals for worse than that. But, Mr. Speaker, that is without any relationship at all to this government, without any authorization:it would not happen with the authorization of this government, it did not happen. We had managed to check with the authorization of Mr.

McLean, if in fact it did happen.which I somewhat doubt. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the days of solicitation of advertisements from private individuals ended wit~ the Liberal balls. You remember when there was a Liberal ball ; and there was a programme, there used to be great solicitation throughout the land for advertisements and what have you.

That is not the type of thing that this government goes along with and the allegation that the honourable the member for Bell Island made with respect to that, is completely and absolutely without any foundation, without any basis of fact, and we invited him to withdraw it. MR. NEARY: And the letter the Minister of Finance wrote? MR. MARSHALL: I do not know what letters the honourable Minister of Finance wrote, What has that to do with the price of fish as it were? Then we come - of yes he is running now, he is down on his knees J see.which he our,ht to be.

This business about public tenders that constituted the grent bleat of the whole reRolution, th11t public tenders (we dealt with thlR thP other day) thnt public tend~rs were to hnve been c11llc-d by this ndmin1Rtration. I Raid the other day that we would bring in lcP,islation and we already have and it has already 15£!2

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 499 NM - 2 ~MARSHALL: been pased, giving effect to the calling of pub~ic tenders. To talk about public tender  in relation to this is abaolutely and completely ridiculous I •repaat what was said the other day, if the board of directors of Paramount studio• are going to produce a film,they do not call for bids on that, _they do not call for tenders, they go to the beat man available.and we went to what we considered was the beet man • available because after all, thia ia the man, true who had relationships with the P.C.

Party during the election campaign, That in itself, with the conceit that oozes from some portions of the honourable opposition, that in itself ought to be justification enough of using the services of Mr. George McLean, Another thing that was stated was;the honourable member for Bell Island made what I consider to be a base allegation to the effect that the McLean Company was in peculiar financial trouble. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not the type of allegation that we ought to tolerate in this particular House. The source that the honourable member quoted was an unnamed source from the Mainland.

Mr, Speaker, when a member of this House quotes something and does not give, or refuses to give the source which he is quoting, or bears the responsibility for the statements which he makes, in other words he stands behind the truth of the statements himself. MR. NEARY: Want the letter now? MR. MARSHALL: We will deal with the letter in a minute. We are dealing with the honourable member right now. MR, NEARY: If you want it, I will table it. MR.

MARSHALL: So the honourable member for Bell Island wishes to talk about the McLean Company or perhaps the honourable member would lib to hAnd it to ma,any ttm,..w11 wtll dal with it, T, will c1ra1 with it in a moment but right now, a. l say, wa are dealinR with the fact11 15'13

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 499 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: about tha currilous allegation by the honourable mefflb@t tor Rell t~lAnd quottn• An unnn•d ,ourc@ nlle1adly eqnactna from Ontario tn th• •tfect that the McLean Aroup vero in trouble. Now•• I say, I invite the honourable member to retract that particular allegation and that particular remark. Mr, McLean is a man of national and int•rnational repute in the public relations field. He has a number of clients who would do credit to any public relations outfit.

He acts for various foreign governments, governments outside of Canada itself and many large corporate concerns. I fail to see, Mr. Speaker, I absolutely fail to see how there can be any relevance with respect to the alleged financial trouble of McLean. Number one, that is not our concern.

What concerns us is that we have value and the eecond item is that I do not believe it is true and 1 think it is very unfair for the honourable member to use the immunity of this honourable House for the purpose of bringing out an allegation like that, because that can do nothin~ but impair the credit of an innocent private individual who has no recourse whatsoever. If the honourable member really believes that and he has the courage of his conviction, let the honourable member make the statement outside the House and then let Mr. McLean take his obvious recourse.

Another question that was brought up was that apparently one of the justifications as to why McLean was not good was that George McLean or one of his staff was kicked out of, the honourable Minister of Fisheries office. But, Mr, Speaker, I doubt whether that occurred, I know it did not occur. nut if it did occur and anyone knows Mr. Ceorrc McLenn and the honourable Miniet•r of Fisheries, if it h ~oinR to happtm n~nin, I would say le.t ue know hecau e we would all be very interested to see the honourable the MiniAter of Fisheries wrestling with Mr. Georr,e McLean. It would be quite 15~4

March 7. 1973 Tape No. 499 NH - 4 MR. MARSHALL: a feat. Indeed the honourable minister was walking around with a limp a few days ago and that is what made me inquire but I have since, and 1 know he will forgive me for revealing this particular aspect of his private life, I found that he was actually sufferin~ with aout;so that he was engaged in the same endeavour that all of us are engaged in,trying to convince the I public that Tory times are not hard times after all. Now, Mr.

Speaker, another great revelation that we had, a great revelation from the honourable the member from Bell Island, was the fact that allegedly Mr. McLean was paid the great amount of $116,000 in June, or his organization. This same poor company by the way, that is in dire financial straits, was paid $116, 000 in June by this government for work,and so it may have been. Mr. Speaker, let me indicate that it is a standard practice in the business in which Mr.

McLean is involved for there to be progress payment>with respect to the w~rk and in particular one thtrd of the payments are given upon submission of what they call completed shooting scripts for films." The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that this is exactly the same practice that is followed in every co11D11ercial pattern, by every government in Canada,in dealings and relationships with individuals like Mr. McLean and indeed was practiced by the previous government. I am not condemning them for it because it is the way the trade is carried on. It was practiced by the previous government, Mr.

Speaker, in connection with a film by Mr. Lee Wolfe which was also a film of quality. Now I know that the honourable the member for Bell Island is chnffnv, nt tho bH there, and th(! honournh]c mrmhc-r11 or thf' oppo1dtlon luwc, "11 11t1cin tluat vartJeular lette.r thAt hti dua bf, deeply for, Hr. Speaker, a few n1in11tes ago, in his posseesioni; and finally managed to locate it. 1515

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 499 NM - 5 MR. ~RSIIAL.!!_: The fact of the mAtter is, Mr. Speaker, that if any letter existed, it would only have been a letter for the purpose of attempting to encourap,e the development of a viable,good pamphlet for the purpose of developing a good tourist potential in this province. To attempt to again, Mr. Speaker, insinuate that there is something seamy and nasty and brutish and short in that is absolutely and completely ridiculous.

The films that have been present,d, we have received ~alue from McLean right from the word go and there has been nothing said by the oppoeiton I mean look, they even had to come - the honourable member for Bell Island who entertained us two weeks ago with his large speech, the mover of this resolution, came and even made the insinuation that NACOM Limited, I am sure Hansard will show it, he insinuated that it might be Nutbeem and Company, Now he had no basis in fact to mention that anymore than I would have to get up in this honourable House and say that NACOM and company means Neary and Company or what have you.

But it just shows the depths to which the opposition will go, Mr. SpeakeT, . for the purpose of attempting to paint us as black as they possibly could. It is very low, Mr. Speaker, because I cannot conceive of the honourable the member for Bell Island in bed with Mr. Georr,e McLean. 15~6

March 7. 1973, Tape 500, Pagel -- apb No, ~r. Speaker, I wa alao nppalled,I might ••Y I was alo very much appalled by the attitude of the honourable the member for St. Barbe North; for whom I have• great regard,as I have for the honourable the member for Bell Island, in his obvious mental lapse of joining in the foray with the honourable member for Bell Island in his "diatrabe" which is really what it was because AN HON. ?~ER: ~- MARSHALL: "Diatribe." "Diatribe?'' ''Diatrabe." "Diatrabe" in St. John's, "diatribe" outside. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, another argument that is bein~ used (and I do not see - really we should not have to take the time of this honourable House to refute these specious, foolish, silly, trivial arguments) but another argument that was used was that there was a conflict of interest. I have spoken times before about conflict of interest, so I am going to say just a few words in whispered tones about conflict of interest. We use public relations men, Mr.

Speaker, as all people do, public relat:f .ons finns, for the purpose of communicating out decisions to the public and .no.t for tbe purpose of making those decisions and that is a very, very real distinction. I do not know of any arguments, the arguments that were made were useless. they were unfounded and I think they have been demonstrated here, these are the only thinr.s that I can think of which were used by both honourable members when they were ltiving their speeches.

They proved,to my mind anyway, the old medical theory that (the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Co'l!Ullunications will agree with me) that all they did, all the honourable mrmbers succeeded in do:fng was prove the old medical theory thnt eventunl ly all pArts of the body get very tired exc~pt the tongue, bccauae certainly the tonpues of the honourable members did not. t-'r. Speaker, l do not think that we want or we should ever attempt to _justify the involvement of any group or any prop,ra!l'ffle because of the fact that the previous ~overnment did the same. I have 15':17

March 7, 1973, Tape 500, Page 2 -- apb 1tvo1deli rrf Pr.,nce to the "C'.oldf1n~er11 Finn and thP Ron11]d11-R.-ynold11 Mr. Sprnkrr. Th•ir 1nvolv•m~nt tn tl1!11 provfnc• wn• an 1thtect dt Jrace. All th•y suc-cr<,ded in doinit Wl!fl to puh th• voic•11 and th• picture  of thr h~nournhJr thr ministl'rR of thr d1ty rlRht before an election right into the faces and into the ears 11.nd eves of the people of Newfoundland when they obviously did not want to see them. The fact of the matter is, with respect to the ~cLean involvement, it is justified by its work, the work that is has done.

It has made films,as the honourable the Premier has indicated, giving all the information quite fully and quite openly. It has made films with respect to the fisheries, it has made instructional films for our fishermen and it has also made films which are geared to aquaint the rest of the world and particularly Canada with the urgency, the necessity, the dire necessity and importance of the fishing industry to this province. We have to be concerned with that, ~r. Speaker, because nobody else seems to be. Certainly the federal 11:overnment does not care a whit about our fishing industry.

The bi~ brave Canadian Nation is afraid to implement these same provisions as the little Nation of Iceland has implemented to conserve its continental shelf. The Prime Minister of our land does not seem to care too much about what happens on the East Coast,as witnessed a few years ago when on a visit to Russia, on the a~enda was the discussion of fisheries c,n the Pacific Coast and not a thinr. on the North Atlantic.

There have been no prf'pnrat1ons and no 1nvolvrment as far a~ we l<now, as far as I know, rcnlly indepth prcp11r11tions wfth reRJH!Ct to The I.aw Of The Sea Conff'rcncr wM ch is comi nr: up in n. ycnr and R-hnl f, to which this prov:fncl' oupht to bP nnd should be ancl muRt be invi tt~d, despite the petty jealousies of aovcrcir,nty of the jurisdiction of international law by the federnl ~overnment. The 1-'cLenn p;roup have very effectively prE'!pared a film drawing to the attention of all Canad:1.ans the d1re necessity of the 15'18

March 7, 1973, Tape 500, Page 3 -- apb fishery to this province. They have prepared very Rood film• with respect to instructing fishermen in their labours, educational films and those aho in the area of tourism itself as well as in many other areas and have done a very fine .1ob for this province. Just to p;ive you one illustration, Mr. Speaker, I have a book here which I am prepared to table, called "Sports Afield' ' dated February 1973, which is an international journal - an international magazine into the hunti 'nr, and fishing recreations. On it we have a very attractive

article by a Jerome Robinson. about a drive to Labrador, Labrador South, a vis1t by Mr. Robinson and his family to the Town of Forteau,in Labrador,in the District of the honourable the member for Labrador South. Hie recounting of how cheap it was, how economical the journey was and how pleasant it was on to the Island of Newfoundland, up to the point of unitin~ with the ferry and over to Labrador South itself. It is a very attractive and complimentary article. This article, Mr. Speaker, was motivated really by the public relations efforts of one Mr.

McLean and NACOM Limited in order to encourage as I say, the tourism potential of this province. That is action in words, Mr. Speaker. The person who is not with McLean, but the person, Mr. Jerome Robinson,was directly contacted, the publisher was directly contacted by Mr. McLean and it was throu~h the offices of Hr. McLean that they came into the offices from the point of view of being introduced here, they were looked after by the McLean orp;anization, all part of their undertal<.inr, here and it is very, very commendable. I do not expect the honourable member for White Bay South to understand this, Mr.

Speaker, because of the fact, that contrary to the administration of which he •tas a part, this administration is determined, absolutely determined to develop our natur11l resources, to protect our fishery 1 which is our most precious naturnl rt>aource, to d«'vrJop th~ tourif1t potentfnl of tht11 provtnrc•, to develop our def'p-wnter port• and on and <ln ad infinitum. In the 15'19

March 7, 1973, Tape 500, Page 4 -- apb wisdom of this administration, it has chosen to select the offices of one of the most prominent public relations experts in Canada to o!ldlllt m, in tM11. WI! hnve hnd,A!I thP honour,:ablo thto PrPmior ha• ably df'fllonalr,1tt'd, certainly 1udRtn111 from previou  yearn, but we do not want to judge, because God help us if we start judgin~ by what the other crowd did, Mr. Speaker, but judgin~ from previous years, we have at least one thousand percent more value for our money. We are satisfied with it, the job is being done.

I would sur,gest that the honourable member for Bell Island should gather up his mushrooms, hang his head, go down to Portugal Cove, go back across the Tickle and as far as I am concerned I invite him, Mr. Speaker as I am sure he will after considering the ar11:uments which have been placed, because his WE"re very specious, they were unworthy of the opposition. Mr. Speaker , the only thing that has not improved in this province in the past two years is the calibre of the opposition. We are not r,oinr, to do anythinp; on the other side to highten it, ~ut it is ouite,frankly, ~r.

Speaker, it is a big, big disappointment when the members on the other side of this House deal in picayunery to the p,reat extent that they are doing. I invite the honourable the member for Bell Island as the honest, affable individual that he is,to withdraw this resolution and I am sure the members on this side of the House would give him the unanimous consent which he requires to withdraw it. !'I~ _W_._N_._R_O_t,/)':.,:_ Mr.

Spe11ker, it is noteworthy that the honourable memhc-r who 1ust s:it down dJd not delll at all with the snm and substonce of the resolution, nrunely; thnt a select committee of c-:lr.ht from this honournhl<' llou!'l<' bl' Appointed :In ordcr to f'nouir<- into 11ccusnt:lons and reports of conflict of interest nnd nl.lc-ged wrongdoing or quasi­ wrongdoinr. on the part of thl' government in its relntions with this Mr. 11cLean and h:1s associated interests.

The honourable member did not even dr.al w:!th that point, the simple re~ueet for n select comm:! tlee, wh:1 ch if the p,ovc-rnment is free from hl aml' can do the r,overnment no harm, :It cnn only improve the r,ovr.rnment'a imar,e, but if thr povc-rnmC"nt ia blnmeworthy :1.n these mnttr.rfl, Mr. Speaker, it 1550

March 7, 1973, Tape 500, Page 5 - aph could of course tarnish the goverM1ent 1 s image considerably. The honourable ~ember would not even deal with that point, Mr. Speaker, and'that in itself is noteworthy. nr. Speaker, 1551

March 7, 1973 Tape 501 JM - 1 I have nothin~ again~t thi• gentleman, Mr. McLean, A• a matter of fact l ~annot •fford to h•v• anythlni •R•inat hlm, lam afraid to havo anything again t that gentleman, Hr. Speaker. It that gentleman, Mr. McLean were ever to it on Your Honour for example he would be able to wrap you up and put you in a shoe box. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity last week, a couple of weeks ago - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(W.N.): Listen to them defend their great friend, there is enough of him. They have spent about two weeks each square foot of him. Mr.

Speaker, I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to go up - MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(W.N.): Mr. Speaker, the hon, Minister from Malawi can speak later on in this debate. All we hear from him is wise cracks and smart alecky statements. I ~ave nothing against the gentleman. As I say I am a little bit afraid to have · anything against him so I will say nothing against the gentleman himself, Mr. Speaker.

But we do have to say something about the actions and the antics of this government with respect to that gentleman, I have listened now for two private members' days, two Wednesdays,to the hon. the Premier and to the hon. Minister without Portfolio who has now left his seat, .in a pathetic manner attempt to whitewash this man and to whitewash, well we are not worried about him but to whitewash the relationship which exists between Mr, McLean and the government.

We hnve heard from the Premier although not to such ,m cxtl'nt no we hcnrd from the hon. min .. ter today • We- have heard childlsh,triviol Rtntcm~nts made in reply to the hon. member from Bell Island, we have heard all kindR of smnrt al eek nnd wisecrnck 1552

March 7, 1973 Tape 501 JM - 2 •tatements in a pathetic attempt to di•entangle the goverment from the conflict of interest which obviously exists in respect of Mr. McLean and his interests. When I finished listening to the hon. Premier last day, Mr. Speaker, I thought that we were dealing with a man who should be in the book of taartyrs. He was a man who was portrayed by the hon. the Premier,as we mentioned last dayl as almost St. George himself, a man spotless in reputation, a man who was probably the greatest advent in human form that this province has ever seen. AN HON. MEMBER: The second coming. HR.

ROWE(W.N.): The second coming is probably one way of putting it but, Mr. Speaker, it was increditable to hear the hon. the Premier go out of his way to try to whitewash the relationship. He might be a friend of Mr. McLean. Mr. McLean is a fine gentleman. I was about to say that l had a long chat with him and the Minister of Tourism,on a plane·going up to Montreal a week or two ago,and I found him an entirely delightful man. I found him to be an intelligent man. I found him to be a hum- humouroua man, a man who probably does have something to contribute in the field of public relations.

I would not say that I would consider him to be the most brilliant public relations man or director of movies in Canada today. I would say that he is not close to the top of that list although there is nothing wrong with him, I would say he is probably an ordinary mediocre type of public relations man as we would find them in Canada today, neither the best nor the worst, a man who probably does a fairly competent job. But to hear the hon. Premier in this House one week ago try to to make this man look like he was Cecil B.

DcMille, the second coming of him, a man who probably should be directing movies for Holywood and some of the more progressive European movie companies, you know to hear the Premier go on like that wae really pathetic- nnd funny, Mr. Speaker, because everybody know that such i  not the c1111e with McLean or NACOM 1553

March 7, 1973 Tapa .501 JM - 3 or whatever other associations he might have. There is one other point, Mr. Speaker, I would like to touch on, and that concerns the alleRations against my hon. friend and colleague, the member for Bell Ialand.whare the Mini ter of Finance and the Premier and this gentleman opposite me,with whom on most issues I agree with but who I disagree with on this one, their attempt to try to condemn the hon, member for Bell Island for so-called making use of his immunity in this House, his absolute freedom of speech in this House to make allegations. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROWE(W.N.): Mr. Speaker, do I have the right to be heard in silence? Would Your Honour mention the rule to the hon. minister? To hear them try to condemn the hon. member for exercising his immunity in this House and making allegations. Mr. Speaker, as far as I know and 1 follow the news, 1 have followed the new for the past year or so, most if not all of the allegations made by that hon. member in this House two Wednesdays ago were made outside this House. through the media, in the past year or so since this government got into power.

There might have been one or two which he has made, I think the reference to this letter he might not have made any reference to before AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, he did. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Well, maybe he did that as well. As far as I know every single allegation which he brought forward in this House a couple of weeks ago and on which he had obviously done considerable research was made by him, every one of them had been made by him earlier outside this House, over radio, television and in the public media generally. So for the hon. MJ.nister of Finance or the Premier or the hon.

Minister without Portfolio to drag a red whnle across the issue and try to say thot he 'Would not make thee<• st11trmcntn outBide the Hou11e, Mr, Speaker, 111 a terrible thing to come from members of the present ministry. In

March 7, 1973 Tape 501 JM - 4 any event, Mr. Speaker, even if he had not made theae statements outaide the House,for these hon. ministers and members of the House to try to belittle him for making use of one of the rights which was fought for. 114111ely iDDnunity, the freedom of saying whatever you want to in this House, for them to belittle that and to make fun of that and to challange the hon. member on that ground, Mr. Speaker, is again a terrible misuse of the privileges of the House. The only reason that we have that right and freedom in this Bouse, Mr.

Speaker, ia to enable members to try to get to the bottom of things without risking suits and actions for libel and slander which would ordinarily be able to be brought against members of this House and then it goes before a court,probably with a jury,and if there are political reprecussions,the jury could decide probably any way, either way,and a man could find himself,even if he tells the truth or even if it so happens he cannot back up what he said with every scintilla of proof and evidence that some judge or jury might require,finds himself mulcted for damages.

That is why we have this privilege and this immunity in this House, Mr. Speaker, ao that a member can come into the House and make allegations which he believes are true although he might not have every scintilla of proof and evidence to back it up, so that a select committee of this House can be set up with equal immunity and with equal privilege to subpoena witnesses,to talk to people, to hear evidence and decide whether the case made by the hon. member in this House does have any basis to it or not. For the hon.

Minister of Finance,who should know better; I do not expect, this is not meant unkindly, I do not expect as much from the Premier or from the hon. ministcr,as they have not spent as Ion~ in Lhn llouac •• th• Mfnl11tor or Financl~. Ila ha bocomo a mn•tc•r of the rules of thh House and ,,rivi1egea and immunities of thill Hou11e and for him to come in and belittle that doctrine of immunity which 1555

March 71 1973 Tape 501 JM - 5 people shed blood to preserve throughout the history of England, Kr. _Speaker, la a terrible thing to hear from the mouth of a minister eapecially a senior minister like him. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is another point which waa made by the Premier again and by the Minister without Portfolio although he did not dwell on this so much and that 1• their insiatent and incessant attempts whenever they are accused of anything to try to compare themselves with the past administration. AN HON. MEMBER: No way. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Everything, Mr.

Speaker, not only this particular point about conflict of interest with the McLean interests but on every single issue that is raised in the public media or in this House this administration after one year in office tries to squirm out from under,to squeeze out of it by trying to compare themselves favournbly with the past administration. But, Mr. Speaker, on that point I can only say this.that the last administration was in power for twenty-three years, something which I hope never happens in the history of this province again.

I sincerely hope that no administration, . including this one after the next e1ection,or that one over there,ever is in power in this province for more than eight or ten years at the most. But here we have - and naturally if they are in power longer than that,power has a tendency,as Lord Aiken said,to corrupt and make politicans arrogant and to make them think that they own the province, own the country, That is why government should not be in power for more than two terms or so without being turffed out by the electorate, so that they can be taught a lesson so they do not have time to become arrogant in power.

Rut we have this government here which has been in power for one small, short year,cotning out and tryinr, to compare themselves favourably with the latter dying days of an ndminiatrAtion which was 1556

March 7, 1973 Tape 501 in power for twenty-three years, nearly a quarter of a century and then they are surpriaed, pleasantly surprised if by aoMe way they can meaaure up favourably 1557 JM - 6

March 7, 1973 Tap• 502 PK - 2 The people of Newfoundland do not want to hear that kind of comparlaon ftnd tha people in thi~ House do not wRnt to h~ar it, I auhmit, Sir, hy and larRe, It is tim~ for thia govarnm•nt to try and do, nobody expect  perfection from them, but to try and do some of the things which they have gone on record in the public press and media as being elected to do for the people of this province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, having p,otten that particular item off my chest I would like to deal with one or two of the matters which the Premier and miniRter mentioned earlier in their apeechea to this honourable House. The ~remier cited to the Hom1e, Sir, aome fip,ures which we accept. We have no choice in this House but to accept fip,ures given by any member of this House or facts given hy any members of this House. There can be a dispute as to opinion or as to

interpretation or as to inferences drawn from the fact. I have no hesitation in accepting the figures from the honourable the Premier, not only because he is the Premi_er of the Province and a member of this Hom:ie but as 11an. I do not thfok that he would go out of his way to give erroneous facts to this House and I think the facts he gave and the figures he gave were p-robably true within the limits and within the t)erimeters or what not in which he p,ave t-hem.

Hut, Sir, surely such figures and such facts are subject to opinion, subject to value judp,ments, subject to all kinds of interpretntion, Reason-b"P men can differ on reasonable questions. The truth, Sir, has many facets, when you look at it from various an~les. Therefore for that reason thr figures given by the honourable the Premier are suspect, not because he had any intention to mislead anybody, I am sure he did not, I am sure the Premier never has in his life and never will in his life.

But they should be at least scrutinized hy other people to ser. exactly what is r,oinp, out of the public chest in this province to Mr. ~cJ~an and hiR interest and why it is ~oinR out. The fiR11rPR nnrl the st~tcmcnt~ as to the quality 1 r.·r.· g . J iJ

March 7, 1973 Tape 502 PK - 3 of Mr. McLean's work surely should he subjected to other opinions, expert opinions of members of this Rouse.and of other people that a aeler.: committee of this House could call in to look at them. The statements of fact made by the honourable the Premier concerning the competitiveness of the figures and the quality, the cost, the prices of Mr.

McLean's work, surely is suspect if only hecause nobody else in this Fouse to my knowledge haR had an opportunity, certainly nobody on this side has ~ad an opportunity to analyze these fi~ures add these facts for themselves and to draw their own le~itimate inferences and deductions from these figures. That alone, Mr. Speaker, is reason enough to have a select committee of this House established to look at this whole operation between the government and Mr. McLean and NACOM and whatever else there might be. The Premier also mentioned, Sir, that this international firm, this far-flung international firm of Mr.

McLean was doing copious quantities of other work for other provinces I believe for other cotmtries, for other companies in Canada and elsewhere. We have to accept that statement from the Premier as well. But I for one, one member of this House, would like to have additional informati9n, I woqld like to know what proportion of that gentleman's work is done in this province? What proportion of hiR work is done here? He might have contracts with Greece, with big multi• . national companies. they could he small or lar~e.

I would like to know what proportion of his income comes out of the public chest of this province? ·1 would submit, Sir, from my own sourcea,without having any hard facts to go by, but I would submit that not less than one-third to one-half of the work done by Mr. McLean is done for this province one way or another either through solicitation for ads,for magazines and p~riodicals which have this government's blessing or by producing things which go to the television stations and which this government pay the television stations for when they put it out,rather than Mr. McLean. I would submit, Sir, 1559

March 7, 1971 Pl - 1 when compared to that administration. What a stupi~, foolieh comparison and contrast, Mr. Speaker? This government here,not only in respect of the McLean interest hut in other regards as well,have already painted a public imaRe to R!'I ~reat An extent if not greater than the previous administration did after more than twenty year  in office and that in itself is a shameful and scandalous thing.

To hear this government comparing themselves to the last administration is pathetic beyond words because this ~overnment,and I am glad they did do this, this government got elected by the people of this province, Mr. Speaker, because they said they were going to do things differently from the past administration. They were going to call public tenders. They were going to make sure that there was none of this patronage and throwing around of public funds to people, and friends of the party in office getting all the plums and the juicy little tidbits. They got into power, Mr.

Speaker, on that promise to the Newfoundland people. For them now to throw up the fact that after one year in office they are 1not quite yet as bad as the previous administration is shameful beyond words,in my estimation, Mr. Speaker. They should not do it. There should be no reference,besides the fact that it is politically stupid,the people of Newfoundland are not prepared to listen to that kind of thing any longer. they want to see action from this government. Besides that fact, Mr. Speaker, it is foolish and nobody in this province wants to hear it any more.

Thal want to hear what this p,overnment are P,oinr, to do to cure defects in our system, to remedy possibilities for corruption, to brinr, in conflict of interest lep,islation for every mrmher of thr government and every member of this Pomie of ARsemhly. They do not want to hear whfte-wnRhy comparison between this administration and the previomi dead, dyin!l, poured upon the administration of two years a~o of whf ch I was np11rt and for the most part was proud to he a part. Tlut I have a great deitl of shame with rer.11rds to some of the thin~s thnt r,rew up after twenty or twenty-five years. 1560

March 7, 1973 Tape 502 PK - 4 and the television station may pay Mr, McLean directly, there may be sort of a triangle ~,,~1r there. I would submit, Sir, that not less than one­ thi~d of Mr. McLean's work is done for the government of this province. And surely that is a relevant fact to determine and surely again that is reason enough to get a select committee of this House workin~ on these allegations and accusations made by my honourable fr1end the member for Bell Island. The Premier in his attempt to white wash Mr. McLean, dra~ged in Mr, McLean's so-called investment in this province.

He may be makinp.; an investment in this province, a lot of people have made investments in this province, a lot of people have made investments in this province when money has been lashed out to them from the public cheat which made them very anxious to stay in this prov1nce, Mr, Speaker. Mr. McLean has established his operations ir this province. creat:I am glad, I am delighted that Mr. McLean is doing that. Surely we need a good, a pretty good puhlic relations firm, a pretty good film-makin1 firM or whatever they are in this province.

But all that indicates to me, Sir, is that he must know or have been promised that times are going to be very good for him in the next few years as a result of his close association with this government and with the Progressive Conservative Party. That is what that indicate~ to me. The man cnmes down and 1nvests in this province, estahlishes an operation in this province, hires on people h1md over fist, makes a tremendous investment, perhnpR not all from public funds, mayhe some of his own money is invested :1.n it as well.

That to me incUc.ntes one thinr., not that he is r,oing to be putt:1.ng out little tourist hrochures from which he w:11.1 get no return to speak of, hut that he :l.s lookinr. forwarcl to soTI1c massive returns from some source :In th:1.s province and the obvious source in the province to look for these returns from is the government of this province with whom he has such a close relationship and for whose party,which this government represents, he ·did HO much work :In the past. 1.~Gl

Harch 7, 1973 Tape 502 PK - 5 Thfln th@ Pr@mt .. r AP.A1n mAk"'• A r11thot t,, 111ttomrt tc-1 tefut" wJ\at tho honourable 111emh1a1r for llell J11land harl to aay ab,,ut Burns Hrothttr and Denton, Burns Rrothers and Denton presumahly the financial ap;ents, the fiscal ap;ents of the p;overnment now. The Premier thought that he had done such a beautiful joh by saying that Burns Brothers and Denton had been working for McT.eans six years before this p;overnment ever p;ot involved with Bruns Brothers and Denton, _and as if that takes the government off the hook with regard to any possible conflict of interest. All that indicates to me again, Mr. Speaker, is that 1562

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 503 NM - 1 ~~~ 'fr. McLean, with his close relationship with the gov,ernment of this province, probably promoted Bums Brother!! and Denton at the expense of Aimee and Company, the former fiscal agents of the province, probably promoted his client Burns Brothers and Denton with this government and the•refore got Burns Brothers and Denton hired on by the province as their fiscal ap,ents at very lucrative returns and I know whereof I speak. I have seen some of the fees which are charged by so­ called underwriters and fiscal agents for provinces. It is a very lucrative occupation, Mr. Speaker.

I only wish some members of this House were involved in it. They would be very well off indeed. We have the Premier cominP, out here and saying, "oh no, no conflict of interest between McLeans working for the ~overnment on the one hand, and for Bums Brothers and Denton on the other hand," Burns Brothers and Denton being the fiscal agents of the province, ''no conflict of interest there." Bums Brothers and Denton had McLean as a client six years before they did any work for this province. How ridiculous, Mr. Speaker~ ~bviousiy w~thout proof to the contrary there was a defin:1 .te conflict of interellt.

It definitely happened as far aa I can see unless the Premier can give us some proof to the contrary, that McLean's pushed Burns Brothers and Denton at the government of this province. It tossed out Aimes and Company, pushed Burns Brothers and Denton down the throat of this province, that is what happened there. The evidence seems to speak for itself. The legal maxim of res ipsa loquitur, the thing speaks for itself, applies to this case obviously and patently, Mr. Speaker.

We had the Minister of Finance. who I am sorry is not in his seat today. come out o couplr of dnye before nurns Brothers and Denton came on as the r,overnment's fiscal ogents and say. •~o. we are completely satisfied with Atmes and Company, thPre is no intention on nnyhocly 's part t.o chnnr.,• tlir.m, Mr. Spenkcr. 11 Then 15G3

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 503 NH - 2 ~- WM. RO~F.: within a couple of days or a week. they nre flung out on thP.1 r enrl'I 11nd in comcA thene huddiee of McLean' e. Burn11 Rrothl!r11 nncl Jlenton. Now if that does not merit some sort of an investigation, Mr. Speaker, by a select committee of this House, then I submit nothing merits investigation by this House or a select committee thereof. Alj. that this House is asking for is something which no memher of the p,overnment side who has epoken yet has even attempted to mt'!et in 11rp,um1mt.

Thie resolution and thiA opposition calls for a 11elect committe~ of the llom::e to look into these allep,ations and accusationA and all these vague and nebulous things that we hear in the public and on the street and hear from members of the press on occasion. What is r,oing on between the government and McLean? If the government,,as I said hefore, haA nothing to hide,they can only gain by setting up a select committee.

If they have something to hide then they can only lose by setting up a select committee and therefore we will see how this government votes, We will see how this side of the House over there, Mr; Speaker,· votes when this resolution is put to it. Nothing to hide - vote for a select committee. Something to hide - do not vote for a select committee. Even the members on the other side are smart and cunning enough to see that and I submit now that it doeR not take a genius to know how they are r,oing to vote either, Mr. Speaker. I wish they would vote for a select committee.

I do not like, anymore than any other member of this llom1e, to see any mnn or. nny p,overnment or any inr.titution or any administration with 11 p,1.ll. or a cloud hanp,ing over their heads. If there is some problem which has arisen because of certain actions and statements and conduct going on, then it is up to the government to free itself. to get out from under that cloud 1564

March 7, 1973 Tape No, 503 NM - 3 MR. WM. ROWE: or pall hanging on its head. No 11141\ likes to be accused of anything in oae of Her Ma~esty's Courts, but if I am accused today of manalnughter or murder or ome heinous offence, it is no good for me to eay to myself, "well l did not do it therefore I will not do anything about it, let them prove their case." Mr, Speaker, if I knew that I was as innocent as a new born babe, I would do everything, dig up every piece of evidence and fight like a dog in the courthou~e to prove my innocence.

It is all very good to say that guilt has to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, but that does not mean a man does not conduct a defence, Mr. Speaker, That is all this government is required to do, merely submit their case to a select committee of this House and see where the chips lie after that, see whether they can dis- entangle themselves, extricate themselves from this cloud hanging over them concerning McLean. I hope they do, Mr. Speaker.

I hope they do extricate themselves, Then at least we can go on and do something important in this House, But as long as thi~ cloud is hanging over them, they are duty bound not to meet these accusations by some mealy mouth platitudes voiced in this House, wisecracks from the honourable member for St. John's East, half with tongue in cheek. It is a serious matter and if they are accused and if there are allegations made, let them meet them, let them submit to a select committee of this House and let us hear what evidence is brought forward from people under oath.

Let us see what has turned up there, If there is any foundation to the aller,ations, then I would submit the ROVernment shall know what to do. If there is no foundntion to these,thcn I for one shall be glad that the government of this province has r,otten out of thi cloud which is presently hanginr, over their head. 15'55

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 503 NM - 4 MR. WM. ROWE: This government, Mr. Speaker, did not hesitate when there were allegations of wrong doinr,, no more than allegations, allegations of wrong doing with regard to the previous Premier of this Province, joey Smallwood, did not hesitate to lash out a c0111111ission to a royal commissioner to investigate. They did not hesitate, Mr. Speaker, when there were allegations against the honourable member for Bell Island, my friend. They did not hesitate to get a judge of the Supreme Court to enquire into these allegations.

Surely, in their own best intr.rests, it i  up to them now to allow a select committee of this llouRe, which iR really I aubmit the only type of an enquiry which can be conducted with regnrd to a sitting government. You could not have a royal commission sittinR on it, it would be irregulnr altogether. A select committee of this House to enquire into any alle~a.tions of wronp, doing by this government. They are quick enough themselves off the mark whenever there is any allegation.

Although I hear the Premier and some bf his colleagues, I hear by the grapevine, are sorry they ever got into that kind of a thinP,, Mr. Speaker, because that leads nobody anywhere, with regard to the former Premier o·f thi's Province, a hir,hly respected man, one of the most popular men that ever lived in this province.

They know now it is politically stupid to have gotten into that sort of a thing but they did not hesitate, nor did they hesitate with regard to my friend the member for Bell Island, but they hesitate long, they are very reluctant when it comes to accusations made by us or anybody else against them. Then they hesitate to set up any kind of a commission of enquiry or select committee to look into their own closets and turn over a few rocks under which there m:lp,ht be some thinr,s buried by the present ~ovcrnment of this province.

Some questions which in1medfate]y sprinr, to mind without nny ntucly, without any thought whotaocver, whnt nmounts rr.ally hnvc been pnfcl to G!."orr,c McJ.e,m hy thiri r,ov<,rnmc•nt., .1ncl for cxn<"tly what work'Z 15GG

... March 7, 1973 Tape No. 503 NM - 5 MR. WM. ROl-11•:: What happens ,for exampl~ when Mr. McLean does something for this government, for thr Deportment of llir;hw.1ye say, an nrm of the government ,and then the government tflkee thnt and p:ivcs it to C.J.O.N. or C.B.r.. to show on television, well C.J.O.N. becnuDe they would be a commercial operation. Do they pay C.J.O.N. and C.J.O.N. then pny a certain amount of money to McLean's, or does the government pay McLean's directly? What happens in that particular case? That is the reason I am askine how much of the public treasury is going to Mr.

McLean, how many tax dollars are r,oinp, to him? Because I do not know and I would submit, Sir, that very few people in this House do know if these fir,urc>n presented by the Prem!.er rr.ally ahow the exact picture, not becaus<' the Premier wanted to mielcad, I am not saying thnt, hut merely hecnus,~ there are other ways of payments being made, Perhaps not from the government at all,directly from Mr. HcLPan. Agency fees, my honourable friend says, where do these cowe from? A~ H()N. MEMBF.R: Production costs. -- ------- ?·tR, W. ROHE: Where do thesr. things come from, 'Mr. Speaker?

Hho sets the fees as far as McLean's are concerned? Who sets them? Do they write their own ticket? The Premier r,ave us some fip,ures on competitiveness which I havt- already suhrtittcrl our.,ht to be scrutinized a little further. Do they wr1tc their own ticket? no they come up with a lrnrebraim!d scheme and say. '\.1e think we should do this for you and this la whn t we will clrnrr,e for it,'' and the governMent okays it. !low arc the fees arrived at, ~!r. Speaker?

Surely a sensible question to be submitted to a responsible select committee of this House, representing both sides of the House,with a majority from the government side, Surely a sensible question. There was some allci:ation made earlier that Mr. McLean's operati .ons are paid in advance by the government. I do not know if the Premier dealt with that point or not. 15 6 7

March 7, 1973 Tape No. 503 NM - 6 ~'!_.)•Ir.ARV: no, tha minhtr.r without portfolio conflrmed that 1a t,rue, MR. WM. ROWE: The minister without portfolio confirms it, well I did not hear him myself, I was out of the House a:t the time. Paid in advance for what, Mr. Speaker? For what? For work that is not done, for ,some 15G8

March 7, 1973, Tape 504, Page 1 -- apb harebrained scheme ' 'that some four or five year-old could dream up which is supposed to be to the benefit of this province7 What next, Mr. Speaker? That is a question which should be put by the select committee to the government and to Mr. McLean and any other witnesses that are called in. Does the ~overnment actively support Mr. McLean's solicitinr. private commericnl operations for advertis:lnp money? This is the firat time thnt J have seen this letter, for example. My honourable friend the memher for Bell Island hns given :It to me. Where is that one Jl:One'?

Yes, here it is, r•r. Speaker, an undated letter with lots of space left for the name of a company to go in "X Y "and company. Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, Department of Economic Development, Office of the Minister, St. John's. No date, no name; "This will advise that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has consented to the publication of the magazine "Newfoundland and J,ahrador 1972" by McLean Public Relations ,for which your advertising support is being solicited." Now, Mr.

Speaker, signed by "John C.Cros1':le," I know you should not mention names in the House, sir,ned by "John C.Crosbie Minister of Economic Development." AN HON. l-'!m'BER: Shame ! }!Jl. W.N.ROWE: There is a copy of his sir,nature there which I assume is correct. If the honourable minister can disprove that it is - or prove that it is not correct,! would be glad to accept his word. I will be happy to table this. Do you want it for anything? We will get us some copies made off and we will table that letter. Does the government support Mr.

McLean and his nabobs in going after commercial people in this province and (well black­ mailing is a criminal offence so I will not use the word) twisting their arms, encouraging them to throw money into the oot, }fr. McLean's pot for work done by }Ir. McLean? Do they, Mr. Speaker? It is no answer for the honourahle 1'1n:lster without Portfolio to say, "nh the previous administration did this kind of thinr. with the Liberal flall:' Maybe they did, I had nothing to do ever with the Liberal Ball myself, 1569

March 7. 1973, Tape 504. Page 2 -- apb but I saw that there was often a very hefty programme with lots of names attached, many of them from "a friend" probably contributing to both sides. That is no excuse, ~r. Speaker, two ri~hts do not make a wrong or two wrongs do not make a right, rather. ~r. Speaker, this is a kind of Question which should be put to the select cmmnittee to ask witnesses, to ask members of the ministry, to ask Hr. McLean and other people, to ask advertisers what kind of pressure was put on them by the government orally, verbally or in writing? What kind of big stick did Mr.

McLean wave when he went or sent one of his men to get advertisinp. from commercial operations throu~hout this province? naybe it was all sweetness and lir,ht. mayhe it was marshmallow, maybe there was nothinr, stronr,-arm, but this letter which I have 1ust read and which the honourable member is now r,rttinp: copies of for this House, for the table of this llou,;r. Thisletter certa:fn]y :lndicntc-s that thPre :fs some funny bu,;iness, Home monkey business p,o:lnr, on behind the scene,;, Mr. Speaker. Surely that is a proper CJUestion for a select cotmnittee of this House to enquire into and to answer.

Another question that arises and it involves how much pul•lic money is p,C'inP, to ~-fcl.can and how is it p:oi np., indirectly, directly nnd for what? How many departments are involved? How many bo:1rcls wh:lch r.dr,ht have autonomous operations, boards which are so-cnlled :lnclep€'nclr11t hoard& hut which arr under the control of MJ n:1 s t<!rR of the· Crown nnd under which we mny nrvrr sec any i tern for adv£>rtffclnp: or puhlfc: rrnltions? llo~ mnny crown c-orpornt:lons may be 1nvo1vrcl fn this Rort of tl1inp? Thr Powrr C:omsnirrnion, the N('wfouncllnnd llouRfnp, Corpornt1on which, ~fr.

Spc•nker, we m11y nC'v€'r hr Rcrutinizinr. whc>n the cstim11.tes come hcforr thfR llomir hc•cnusr th€'y nre sort of outsfclr the ambit of the dctailecl clause-by-clause 11tucly that we F:ive the estimates when they come into this llourie. That, t-lr. Speaker, certainly must hr Rupport for the selection by this llou~e, the appointment by this Honse of a royal cofflllliss:lon to look into the relationship hetwrc>n the rovrrnmrnt in nJJ its n,;pects nnd all its 1570

~arch 7, 1973, Tape 504, Par.e 3 -- apb arms, the relationship between the p:overnment and this fellow McLean. What is the exact relationship between McLean on the one hand and Shaheen or some of the Shaheen associated subsidiary companies on the other hand? How did they work, ~r. Speaker, how did Mr. 1'1cLean fit in with any recent negotiations which went on which we will have an opportunity to debate in this House later on? What happened there exactly? Surely, Mr. Speaker, the eub1cct for detailed enquiry by a select committee of this House, On any of the work that Mr.

McLean did, did any other public relations firms or film making firms have any opportunity to bid or to make proposals to the government? Were any invitations sent out by this r,overnment to any other firm of which there are a number in St. John's and of coure a greater number ~cross Canada? Did they do it, Mr. Speaker? I have not heard that they have not, the question has been p,1.ossed over so far by the members who hav(' spoken, but surely this is a question which a select committer. can look into.

Then the honourable the Premier and thi e wee sickenin~•., the honourable the Premier wnves before this House a few words uttered in a debate by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition and I am sure he will deal with this when he has an opportunity to speak in this debate, but I will make a point on it while I have the opportunity, waves before this House a few words spoken by the Leader of the Opposition conc-.erninp: the callinr- of tenders for this type of work and tries to pretend that this is wholesale vindication of the government's case, the rovernment's position in dealin~ at non-arm's lE'n~th with Mr.

McLean and hii; nssocfate>s, something which was probal,ly 11uot,·d out or C'ontrxt, hut rv<'n Jf it wrrr not 011e>tt'd 0111 of n111l1•)!1, It Wl"I It 11lnto,me,n1 ,,,u,I,, 1,y lhr l.t·A,lt·r ,,r Liu, Opp1111J1 ((111 whicl1 Wllfl shvJously sul, _1ecl Lo any kind of an 1'Xplanat1on wl,!c:lr thte Leader of the Opposition could easily have pfven if asked earlier, before it was waved before this House. 1571

March 71 1973, Tape 504, Page 4 -- apb The Leader of the Opposition is presumed to h3v• aaid that you do not call tenders on this type of work. That may be so. You do not call tenders on this type of work, but •urely what you do do, f-'r.

Speaker, is to indicate to the public, the people who are in this business, surely what you do is this, indicate to them what you have in mind that you want to do, give to them the financial lirnitation which you have on this work nnd then invite from a number of different public relations firms, film makinp, firms and what have you, proposals and some idea as to what they will do on a given subject for a given amount of money. ThJs is what is done in respect of many architectural drsir,m1. This in wlmt 1R done whc-n some firm or country wants to put up A lar.p;e expcmdve mod<'rn l,u1ldin11: in many cases.

They invite the leadinr, arch1tecturnl firms to submit proposals as to how this should be done within a given financial limitation. That is how it is done, ~r. Speaker, and that is what I am sure the honourable Leader of the Opposition would have said, although I have not talked to him about it, if he had been questioned by the Premier on that part:l .cular point.

But no, the Premier comes in and says; "Look, pap;e 559 of llansard, the Leader of the Opposition s:tys no tenderR on this type of work." Of course, no tc>nders on this type of work, how can you tender for this type of work when all you can do is invite proposals on a presentation, proposals with a certain finnncial ).imitation on a crrtain subject? That is done everywhere in the world it is not even beyond the wit of this r,overnment to do that kind of thinr,, 1-'r.

Speaker, but I have not heard that they have done it. f-'aybe they have, I would not m:l.nd hc>arinr. if some l'lemher of the p.overnment can tell me they have invited proposnlR and Jnv:ltat1onn from other firms on worlr prC'vfounl y don<' hy l'r. I-le Lenn or work thn t is he1nr, done by l"r. f-ld.rnn or wor\, tc, hr don<' 1 n th(' futur<>. I would hr 1. 5 .. , 2

_; :;J I 11 1,- i •,' - :--:: .. - ,., March 7, 1973 -~apla no. 505 Page 1 - HRW • I completely satisfied on that point, provided some half decent proof ::L i=,·, Ill . . could be supplied to me on it. Bu·e:;'·t am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that this Ill! is not being done.

This agaiQ; •i & certainly a legitimate, sensible and reasonable question for any se}~ct conunittee of this House to ask the government 111 •• to examine the gov~_!llll'l~nt, to cross-examine the government, if necessary and Mr, McLean and -ce~;ioyees and other firms to see if they ,,, , have in fact receiied invitations to make presentations or proposals ,;. by this present administration. - · . AN HON .MEMBER: (Inaudible)• • ) • i MR, W. N, ROWE: Why not? It 1 s ,_1a _.11imple question. Surely there is a simple answer.

I would not ~n~ having the answer because it will r . • ..,.·• - _. t give us a better , idea an<J the pubU:1:~ of this province a better idea as -. -.~ to what this govern111ent is lik 1 i, 11~..:-.they are lily white, let them be ., lily white. ~, I am delighted that we have a lily-white government. If r - there are any tendencies in the .-other_ direction, after a measly one year in office, then I think Let the public make up their :~ the 15Ublic should know that as well, Mr. Speaker. 1.- m~nd: zj:; they want to put up with that sort of thing, that is~up to the publi~. ·:.

I;\ ' ;i'he electorate, when it speaks, is ,, final, There is no appeal. TI1ey in¥-e up their minds • ~" They flung us out. They threw us out in the. i a ~'t e1.ection and partially threw us out, ' :.. • e_;, i dismembered us, in the electio ;1 1 bef(#'e that. I am delighted. I go along with ~ H - that decision. The same -opportu,pity · will arise in another couple of years. Maybe they will keep this gove ~ ~e~t in or they will fling this government -, . out.

At least the people of this province should know what is going on and what kind of seedy relationsliips are beinp, entered into by this particular ·:·~:. government. Another point, Mr. ~peiker, which demands, which cries out for _; some kind of an explanation ~ ~d so~e1::;enquiry - there is wholesale disenchantment . ~ and disillusionment on the par·t . of employees and ex-employess of McLean's I operations. With<>i:t giving .-iny n~pics (althour,h in a select committee I am sure that a number of these r,enJ;le_!!I~~ would come forward and give evidence), . ' ' :,o 1573 .· '/,' ' -

March 7, 1973 Tape no. 505 Page 2 there are a numher of ex-employees, one probably within my earshot here todn.y. within my voice raillf'cl toclny, Mr. 8pC!Akl!r, who in !lo fed up with wh11L :lit 1v>Jnr, on ln Mr. Mcl.ean 1 11 ortie111 and whnt ho 1• doing to this province and the money he is filching from this government and the public chest that he gave up in disgust and he has told me (this is something that will come out if a select committee were set up) Hr. Speaker, that there are other employees who are in exactly the same position with Mr.

McLean but who are not r,oing to starve to death in order to prove their point. They have to make an income for their families. They have to keep bread on the table. They are not about to jeopardize their livelihood. It is all very r,ood to talk about principle if you got a million in the bank. When you are living on five or six thousand a year or lees, principles have a tendency to evapornte. A higher principle reigns, lookiny, nfter your own well-bein~ and your family, Mr. Speaker.

I nm sure thnt in a closed sesRfon, under oath, that we can get some very interestinr, informntion from ex-employees and maybe (although I am less certain on this point) present employees of this gentleman Mr. McLean and hlR associated companies. Everywhere I turn I run.into somebody whose son or brother or father or some thing is taken on by Mr. McLean to make films in this province. I am delighted. Maybe we are the Poland of Canada. Maybe we lire r,oing to have A flourishinr. film-mak inP, industry in this province, Mr, Spenker.

Mnyhe wr. will be an enstern Hollywood AA my honourable friend Rays - the llollywoocl of the emit coast. l douht it. Id know thnt there nre people hefnr, hired on, how many I really do not know except that the impression that I r,et ls that there are qultc n number beinr, hired on, Mr. Speaker. Surely we should enquire into that. What plans does McLean have for the future? What planH do the r,ovcrnment have for the future with regard to this gentleman? That is a legitimate question for a select committee of this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is well-known, this is fact, ndmitted to by all sides, that Mr.

McLenn acted - oh, 1 r,ot n little afraid there for 1574

March 7, 1973 Tape no. 505 Page 3 a minute, Mr. Speaker. I thought the honourable member was coming over to do something drastic. He is the man I fear second worst in the world - McLean number one and him number two, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. W. N. ROWE: Okay, Mr. Speaker, we have the confirmation of the minister that the letter which we tabled (I do not know if it has been tabled yet) is okay. Is it tabled yet? We have the confirmation of the miuister (I do not know whether he said it jocularly or seriously) that it is tabled. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. W. N.

ROWE: Oh, we are going to hear it now. If the honourable minister had some place to go - he has been over here and now he is over there. I suppose he would probably be hanging from the chandelier if we had a chandelier in here, Mr. Speaker. I expect to see his seat out in the middle of the floor some time. The honourable minister is fed up with what happened in the previous administration and surely the Minister of Finance is now fed up, sickened by what is going on in this present administra_tion.

I l}ave no doubt, Sir, that the honourable minister would get out of this government if he had somewhere to go in politics. Maybe with some openings now coming up in other fields, perhaps federally or something else, the honourable minister might see his time to get involved in that and get out of this because I am sure he is most discontent, Hr. Speaker, where he is now. I am sure he does not enjoy it. I am sure as bad as the other crowd were, this crowd is worse. That is what is going through his mind, Mr. Speaker, AN HON. MEMBER: You got a sour puss, he said. MR. W. N.

ROWE: I am sure that the honourable minister is chafing at the bit to bring in this conflict of interest legislation. I am sure of that, because I think he is honourable anrl honest Jn hia intentions to mnkl' sure 157!>

March 7, 1973 Tape no, 505 Page 4 that no member of the government or no member of this House can take advantage of his puhlic position to put money in his own pocket. I know he is honourable in that regard and honest but I am not so sure that he is making much headway in trying to get this through, to· get an order-in-council, allowing this to come to the House, Mr. Speaker. We might hear from the honourable minister on that. I find it sad in a way that this honourable gentleman who is one of the greatest political talents that this province has produced in the past five or six years, a man who took on MR.

CROSBIE: You are on the right track now. MR, W. N. ROWE: Mr, Speaker, I must say that when the honourable minister strode in, with fire in his eyes, fist~ flung up, talking about confirming me, well then I decided that I better soft-pedal it and give him a few pats on the back. Hopefully wh,m he gets up he will be a little easier on me, because I am shivering in my boots here, Mr, Speaker. He has a new suit as well, Mr. Speaker. It is savar,e to go ahead with it today.

But just to continue this eulogy on the honourable minister - eulogy is probably the right word, I suppose~ eulog~ is .usually given at death,political death in this case. This eulogy on the honourable minister, Mr. Speaker: A r,reat talent, a rnnn of stronp. principles, a man who more than any other force in this province, defeated the last r,overnment. MH . MORC.AN: ~1at hnppencd to George Mcl~an? MR. W. N. HOWE: I brfnr,:lnr. :It nround now, Mr. Speaker.

I re11lizc thal the hon. rncnihrr for llonaviRtR South may ffncl ft hnrd to follow but if he iR pntic-111 11ncl listl'TIH for a 11 ttle wh I le, he wl 11 henr. Maybe we will he11r him :In tld~ !!pf'cch, in th:la dcb11Lc 1111 a m11tt<!T of fact, Mr. Speaker. All we can do is s1t back there - well he in not as bad as some of his collear,ues, he docs have somcthinr, to sny. I do not want to be unkind to him. He does 1576

March 7 1 1973 Tape no. 505 Page 5 have something to say. Hi other colleagues sit back there like a bunch of crackies and nip and bark and never get up and say a sensible word in this House. Mr. Speaker, this honourable gentleman that I am talking about, the Minister of Finance must be sickened by what is going on in the present administration. He is a man who has high principles, a man who more than any other force, political force in this province, defeated Joey Smallwood and the previous administration by dint of hard work, perseverance and getting his ideas across.

Whether the ideas were right or wrong or whether they were ill-advised or not is another question, a question of opinion, but he worked at it and he had strong principles. H~ felt his principles and his principles must now be sorely tried and bent by remaining a member of this present administration. I doubt if ne will be there very much longer, if he can see a way to squeeze out. I would say that if the Premier can find a way to flick him out, he would not hesitate for two seconds, Mr. Speaker, to do it, if he could do it·with some credibility. Mr. McLean acted ·tor the·Tory Party.

Certainly this is a legitimate question for a select committee of this House: Does he still work for the Tory Party? Was he ever paid by the Tory Party of this Province for work which he did leading up to the October election the year before last and the March election of last year? That is a legitimate question because if he were not paid, Mr. Speaker. then some very interesting speculations arise from that revelation if it is ever made.

Surely a select collDllittee of this House, both sides, a majority from the government side, can look into that question and decide whether, in fact, anything as heinous as that 1577

March 7, 1973 Tapo 506 IB-1 here with regard to the conflict between the Tory Party and the government of this House did in fact exist and does in fact exist now. I hope that it does not. J hope a Select Committee of this House will prove that it does not, that he was paid by the Tory Party for work in full, that he was paid shortly after the work was performed, that no part of his actions, his relationship with the present administration are as a result of his not having received any money from the Tory Party for public relations work which he did fnr them leading up the two elections.

I am not making any accusations. All I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that interesting speculations arise from what you see in this province today and it is up to the govemment to either allow these accusations to fly about and further speculations or rumors to develop as a result of them or to defend themselves in the proper form before a Select Co11111ittee of this House. Let us have a look at some evidence. Let us have a look at some testimony by witnesses under oath in closed session so their identities can be protected if necessary. That is all we ask, Mr. Speaker.

The honourable member for St •• John's South is taken by the scruff of the neck and ignominiously flung out of the cabinet. When he is out of the cabinet - North rather, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for St. John's North. MR. MURPHY: Will you make up your mind. MR. W. ROWE: Oh, listen to that, Mr. Speaker. The minister, the expert on ~alawi affairs comes into thifl llouse. Imagine he is over there hove-off in his seat. Look at him. My! Mr. Speaker, The memher for St.

John'R North waR tossed out of the cahinet and arter he iR toHed out ignominiously, tho la~t man to hear about it was he, when he found hie sent occupied by someihody el ~11 after he walked into the cabinet room one day. Mr. Speaker, wh@n he 1s flung out of the cabinet he comes up with charges, nnt to the local press although after­ wards I think, he did confirm · them but to some Mainland press members. He makes charges of pntronage in this r,ovemment, money flung around to McLean and other people, presumably for. work that was not done 1578

March 7, 1973 Tape 506 IB-2 or work which was not up to standard, work which was not quality work. He was sickened by it. Although one has a tendency to say, "we11, sour grape ," all I can say is that a man's oath of offtce is less strong when he has heen done dirty him8elf and 111 likely to come out with some truthful statements and his tongue ia likely to loosen somewhat, •1e comes out and makes these blanket accusations against gross patronage by this present administration in respect of McLean and respect of other people.

Made -what was it he said - made Joey Smallwood look like a Sunday school teacher or something to that effect. That was some job. If he made Joey Smallwood look like a Sunday school teacher, Mr. Speaker, then I shudder to think what is going on, I must say, over there. My former leader will know what I am talking about. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Smallwood knows what I am talking about. Mr. Smallwood was anything but a Sunday school teacher. Mr.

Smallwood was a ruthless, cunning, brilliant some would say approaching genius in the art of politics and no Sunday school teacher ever reached that pre-eminence in the art of politics. If these people are as good in that field ai:; be wa~,,w.ell then they are in for twenty-three years. If they are not, they will be thrown out the next time. When it comes to charges of patronage, it was then that the honourable member for St. John's North said that they are worse than the previous administration ever was, Well then, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what to Ray about that particular stntement.

I would assume that the honournhle member for St. John's North does not have sort of tender morals. I would say that he knows whereof he speaks and that certain tM.np,s that are going on are certainly rubbing him and have rubbed him the wrong way. I would like to hear what he has to say on oath before a Select Committee.in secret session if necessary.to get At the truth 1n thh thfnp,, Mr, SpcRker, Mr. S~cnker, on~ final comm~nt. J hnve never aeen ony of thefte 1579

March 7. 1973 Tape 506 IB-3 films which Mr. McLean has done there around Christmas time. I ~ot an invitation to ~o to some kind of a booae party down in the Sir Robert Bond Auditorium which I turned down - not that I do not have R droo now and then - but I wa~ not to anxious to gn to that particular one and I find out later that what it was was really a public showing of some films. I did not see them ,unfortunately. I hope that Mr. McLean or the government can arrange to show these films publically once more. I would like to make some judgements and come to my own opinion on what they are in fact like.

"Come And Paint And Photograph Us•" Mr. Speaker• what a name. What a name for a film to be going out through Canada. Is that the name, Come And Paint And Photograph Us or With Us or uhat? AN HONOURABLE MF.MRER: Come And Paint And Photograph Us. MR, W. ROWE: "Cr--me And Paint And Photograph 1111." Come, Mr. Speaker, "Come Pilfer And Fleece Us"• "Come Filch And lliddle Us•" that is what they should be chanRed to. Mr, Speaker. What a cond~acenrltng title.

I hope the film itself is not aimfliar to the title "Come And Paint And Photograph Us." That is your Mainland mentlllity right there,aummed up in four or five words, M~. _Speaker: Here we are down here a bunch of quaint, rustics ,half starved to death probably, stund surely. So, come down, come down, take a few shots at us. Go bring hack your shots and your photographs and your paint and your paintings, bring them back and have a ~rest laugh up in Etobtcoke or wherever you 11:0 up in Torf'nto, up in lipper Canada. M~.

NEARY: ro to Southern Labrador and the Grr.at Northern Peninsula. r.et n few pictures of thP. c11uipment broken rlown. MR_._..!!,~~-E..!-!•..:. A point of order, ~r. Speakr.r, would you mind uyinit thRt a11:atn? MR. W, FOWE: Mr. Speaker, docs anyone mind if I carry on. MR. FARRELL: I am sorry but I mean, I cannot listen to this hnnourahle - MR. W. ROWE: Mr. ~peaker, is there a point of order? ~. NEARY: Leave the House, 1580

March 7, 1973 Ta'Pe 506 MR. FARRELL: I am not leaving, you leave. MR. NEARY: Leave the House. IB-4 MR. FARRELL: I will not leave. I am not liat•ning to anything like you over there without accepting - we do not have to listen to this very long.do we? MR. NEARY: If you do not like it, leave, leave. MR, FARRELL: Oh, I will stay around just as long as you. MR, W. POWE: Any chance of carrying on, Mr. Speaker?

That is all I had to say, Sir, that this is a typical, typical, typical, condescending, patronizing idea of ~ainland Canada concerninr, most of Newfoundlanders and most of Newfoundland and here it ia befng perpetrated, carried on, fmbeded fnto the folk memories of the Mainlanders in Canada concem:fn~ this province and its people. "Come And Paint And Photograph Us",condescending. No Newfoundlander, Mr. Speaker, who had been doing a film would have permitted or would have dreamed up such a title as that.

They would have dreamt up something else, not something which gives the wrong impression about this province, perpetrates the bad myth about this province not the good myths. Our good myths and our good . . attributes are nothing to be afraid of. Our bad attributes are nothing to be afraid of but misrer,resentation such as th:fs, "Come Pa:fnt And Photograph Us - we will hold still for you and pay us a quarter, Mr, Speaker, pay us a quarter and you can take my snap. What next, Mr. Speaker, what next? It is that kind of a thing that puts the devil right in me and in my colleaguee on this side of the House.

I am sure the people of Newfoundland are fed up with that kind of an attitude, patronizin~, condescending attitude. I think that it probably would be better, as I said earlier in res'l)onse to the Minister ~-rithout Portfolio, if they did change it to "Come and Pilfer Artd Fleece Us", "Come And Filch And Diddle Us". That should be the title of that, Mr. Speaker and it would give a correct impression to Mainland Canada, Mr. Speaker, then, not an erroneous imprcRRion 1581

March 7, 1973 Tipe 506 concerning bow stund Newfotmdlanden aTe. They will hold 11tUl for you. Cive them a quarter. You can paint their l)icture or take a snai,, )fr. Speaker. IB-5 If the honourable 1'!in1ster would agne not to talk for Lent, then I will give u~ eating for Lent, Mr. Speaker. I am sqre that: h.e could never •Rree to that 1582

March 7, 1973 Tape 507, PK - 1 MR. ROWE, W.N. anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say. This, Mr. Speaker, this relationship between the government and McLean, this conduct on the part of the government and Mr. McLean speaks for itself res ipsa loquitur there is no question about it at all. If there is any defence which the government have to put up to it, let them not rise in thiel House and come out with mealy mouth platitudes, smart alex comments white washing Mr. McLean, St. George and the Dragon, we do not want to hear any of that. Mr.

Speaker, all we want to know as responsible members of this House representing our own constitutencies and the people at large in Newfoundland is whether we are being filched and pilfered by these people or whether there is a legitimate relationship going on. That is all we ask and I support wholeheartedly, Mr. Speaker, t.he request of this resolution to set up a select committee to enquire into these matters. MR. SPF.AKER· Before I recor,nize the honourable rnernher for Bonavista South; earlier today J accepted under advisement a resolution from the hon. member for Bonavista North.

I would like to rule on that now. I find that the resolutfon is a request for expenditure of public monies and as such 1 cannot accept it. I refer to Beauehesne, page 214,

section 249, para. 1, which says: "No cases can he found of any private member in the Canadian Conunons receiving the authority of the Crown, through a minister, to propose a motion involving the expenditure of public monies. No principle is better understood than the constitutional obligations that rest upon the executive p,overnment of alone initiating measures imposinP, charP,es upon the public exchequer.

On one occasion in the Enr,lish Common~ the consent of the Crown was given to certain formal resolution proposed by a private member, with referencP. to chnrree 1n courts of lnw, to he defrayed out of the consnlidated fund. lt wa11 tl,oup,ht, howc,vrr, that any rr.oolutfon placfn~ 11 ch11rr,c on the conriol idatr-d fund should t,tt 111ovcd by a n1init'lter of the Cruwn and the more reP,ular procedure was thereupon carried out. It was distinctly 1583

March 7, 11173 Tape 507 PIC - 2 affirmRd howPV~r that th• member who propoaed th@ motion involving the cti.r,.• wn~ w1thfn hf• riRht when had the ftnction of th• r.rown. nut it ' was generally admitted at the same time that it wa1 better a a matter of policy that the proposition should emanate from a responsible adviser of the Sovereign. And to 1\enuchesne, pai::e 167,

Section 199, part of section (4)"any irrep,ularUy of any portion of a motion shall render the whole motion irrer,ular." The honourable the member for nonavista South, MR. J,_MORGAN: · Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak again the resolution presently before the House of Assembly bought in by the member for Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, there is only one reason why this resolution is before the House of Assembly, one reason only, and that is the vindictiveness of the opposition and the Liberal Party against a man and a company and a firm that played a very influential factor in the last two provincial elections.

It is just the main reason of plain simple vindictiveness. We see a resolution before the House of Assembly casting innuendoes and cast again the character_o, a man,. like Mr, McLean and his companies, simply because that company was influential in defeating the Liberal Party in the province. With all due respect to the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I think it is time that all resolutions of this nature not be allowed to come before the House of Assembly. It is downgradinr, this House of Assembly. It is brinr,ing shame to the House of Assembly. And I say, shame to the opposition in this case.

Maybe forr,iveneas can he p,iven to the honour11hle member for Bell 1Al11nd. Rut after the Premil'r in this Jloust' of Assembly a number of days ap,o clnrificd thr aituation by anawcring in detail all the questions put forwnrd in the resolution, answered in detnil, Mr, Speaker, maybe forp,iveness iA piven to the l1onournblr. member for Bell Ieland but not for the honourable member for White Day South. Today in this 11ouse of Aeeembly he continues to 1584

March 7, 1973 Tape 507 castigate the character of Mr. McLean. MR. ROWE, W,N. No, no, the government. PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: Simply for the one reason, because Mr. McLean played such a major

part in bringing this government into power. One reason only, We see a resolution which comes in and says:"whereas without any public tenders havinp: been called," Who says so? So one member of the House of Assemhly brings in a resolution saying. no tenders were called because he thinks so, and the media in the province covered this, It ~oes to every nook and corner of the province and the. people are believin~ it because one member brings in a resolution that savA ft, And he goes on to say; "whereas it appears that substantial sumR of money have been paid to Mr, McLean," It appears to whom? To one member of the House of Assembly. These are the kind of thinr,s in this resoluti