British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, November 4, 2003

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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, November 4, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 18, Number 2 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Tuesday, November 4, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 7779 Statements (Standing Order 25 B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 7779 Volunteer B.C. V. Anderson Crime Prevention Week E. Brenzinger Youth sport B.

Locke Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 7780 Surgery wait-lists and impact of St. Mary's Hospital closing J. Kwan Hon. C. Hansen Collective bargaining process in education system R. Nijjar Hon. G. Bruce Incident at Vancouver Island Regional Correctional Centre S. Brice Hon. R. Coleman Settlement of power export case between B.C. and California P. Nettleton Hon. R. Neufeld Surgery wait-lists and impact of St. Mary's Hospital closing J. Kwan Hon. C.

Hansen Mountain pine beetle control T. Christensen Hon. J. Murray Reports from Committees ........................................................................................................ ............................................... 7783 Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, second report B. Locke Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 7783 Youth Justice Act (Bill 63) (continued) Hon. G. Hogg J. Kwan T. Christensen K. Stewart B. Penner L. Mayencourt

7779 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members L. Mayencourt: A few months ago, when we were in the midst of the fires in the Okanagan, the fire chief there went on the news and was commenting on all the donations that the fire department had received, but he said that they would really appreciate some beer. Mol- son Brewery quickly stepped up to bat. We have two guests here today from Molson, Jeff Gaulin and Ferg Devins. They not only donated beer to the firefighters up there, but they also donated $100,000 to the fire re- lief fund in the past couple of weeks.

I'd ask the House to give them a hero's welcome, please. [1405] Hon. S. Santori: T h i s a f t e r n o o n i t g i v e s m e g r e a t pleasure to introduce three constituents from the beau- tiful city of Grand Forks. With us today we have His Worship Mayor Jake Raven, Councillor Ann Gordon and the chief administrative officer, John Lambie.

At this time I want to take the opportunity — relat- ing back to the fires this past August and the closeness of devastation in the city of Grand Forks — not only to ask the House to make these people feel welcome but also to congratulate the city of Grand Forks in their cooperation with the B.C. Forest Service, as well as the U.S. Forest Service. They worked together so diligently over some very difficult times this summer and actu- ally kept that fire from getting into the city of Grand Forks and creating devastation.

Please help me wel- come my guests from Grand Forks and congratulate them on a commendable effort. J. Kwan: I rise to share some unfortunate news with the House today. The Leader of the Opposition, while walking to work this morning, slipped on some black ice and hit her head against the sidewalk. She has vis- ited a clinic and has received good medical advice. She is resting. She's had an X-ray done on her skull. Hope- fully, there's no permanent damage and there will be speedy recovery and return for the member for Vancouver-Hastings.

I know the House will join me in wishing her well and wishing that she will be with us as soon as possible. Hon. R. Thorpe: I'm pleased to introduce Glen Ringdal, the president and chief executive officer of the New Car Dealers of British Columbia. Glen has been working with the government and meeting with a number of members of government today. Would the House please make him and his associates welcome in this House. D.

Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 72 grade 5 students visiting from Surrey Christian Middle School in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead, who are here to learn about the B.C. government and about this House. Joining them are their teachers, Ms. Kim Bell and Jackie Hofstede, as well as 18 parents and teacher- volunteers who have taken time away from their busy schedules to accompany these students. Would the House please make them very welcome. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. members.

If it is the wish of the assembly, we will send the Leader of the Opposition a get-well wish and hope she has a speedy recovery. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) VOLUNTEER B.C. V. Anderson: Today I want to commend the mem- bers of Volunteer B.C. They're planning a volunteer forum in the year 2004. Such a summit, long overdue, is to highlight and support the thousands of volunteers in B.C. and to highlight the importance of the volun- teers to the social core of our communities.

In September 2002 Volunteer B.C. initiated the Vol- untary Organizations Consortium of B.C. as an ongo- ing network to enable volunteers to share in the facets of society in health, education, social services, sports, recreation, culture, arts, multiculturalism, aboriginal, disabilities, children and youth services, environment and many, many others. The founders of the network identified a number of strategic priorities, such as en- couraging cooperation on shared projects and recog- nizing and supporting individuals of all ages and backgrounds to share their gifts with the community.

Volunteer B.C. is in cooperation with Volunteer Canada, by which the federal government had recog- nized the "third force." This is the volunteer force, the other two being the public and the private sector. This third force has long been recognized in international NGOs — that's non-government organizations — re- lated to the United Nations and more recently on the national scene. [1410] Volunteer B.C. is now stressing the need to recog- nize, celebrate and support the third force in B.C. by supporting interaction between the government, pri- vate and volunteer sectors.

The volunteer summit is a key initiative to bring together volunteers in B.C. to build excellence and excitement throughout the prov- ince. This summit is the precursor to a major dialogue with the government of B.C., and we wish them well in this undertaking. CRIME PREVENTION WEEK E. Brenzinger: I'm pleased to rise in the House to- day to speak about Crime Prevention Week. Crime Prevention Week provides communities with an op- portunity to come together to recognize the things we can do to make our homes, streets and schools safer. T hi s y e a r's t he m e , " C ri m e af f e c t s u s al l .

B e p art o f the solution," reminds us of the role each of us can play

7780 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 to ensure our children are safe and our neighbour- hoods are protected. Crime prevention can be as easy as becoming a Block Watch parent, joining a Neighbourhood Watch group or taking

part in com- munity events. The need for block parents is becoming more pro- nounced, as we don't often take the time to get to know our neighbours. A block parent provides a safe place to t u r n f o r a c h i l d w h o i s b o t h e r e d b y a s t r a n g e r o r a bully, or who is sick, hurt or lost. A child knows that when they see the "Block parent" sign, a safe adult is there to offer help. Neighbourhood Watch is a crime prevention pro- gram that works to reduce threats to your and your neighbourhood's property.

Essentially, the Neighbour- hood Watch program encourages neighbours to be aware of other neighbours during times when burglar- ies are likely to occur. A police officer patrolling your community might not recognize a stranger in your yard, but your neighbours will. Finally, taking

part in activities in your community is not only an excellent way to meet your neighbours and make meaningful relationships, but it also goes a long way in preventing crime by creating a network of citizens who watch out for each other and each other's property. The British Columbia Crime Prevention As- sociation's website outlines a number of events and activities that we could all take

part in to foster rela- tionships that will act to prevent crime. Crime Preven- tion Week reminds us of the importance of getting in- volved and making a difference in our communities. YOUTH SPORT B. Locke: Today I rise to speak to a positive and extremely popular subject for the many children and families in my community: youth, parents and grand- parents coming together to celebrate the accomplish- ments of talented young athletes and instilling a spirit of friendship, sportsmanship and hospitality in our diverse communities.

Organized sport for young people provides a fo- rum where kids can build relationships in a safe envi- ronment that is both enriching and fun. Throughout B.C. community sport programs, young athletes are motivated to pursue a higher level of fitness and achievement — lessons that I am sure will remain with them forever. Currently, in every constituency in our province there are excited kids trying out for the B.C. Winter Games, be it in hockey, skating, ringette, curling, gym- nastics or judo. These games grant them an important gift.

They deliver self-esteem, team-building strategies, good health and great attitudes. Sports teams teach children how to win, how to lose and how to keep striving for your dreams, no matter what the score. Like my daughter Katie, a ringette player who this year was chosen to compete in the upcoming B.C. Win- ter Games, these young athletes will learn life lessons. I will stand proud with many other parents, cheering them on and watching our kids strive for greatness. Corporate and small business sponsors also play a critical role in the development of youth sport.

Provid- ing financial assistance allows industries to give back to their communities. Most importantly, kids are trying hard and having fun, and the value of having fun is something that should never be underestimated in a child's development. Thank you to the provincial government, the out- standing volunteers, the committed coaches and refe- rees, and all the moms and dads who have supported and contributed to helping B.C.'s children and youth achieve their very best. Oral Questions SURGERY WAIT-LISTS AND IMPACT OF ST. MARY'S HOSPITAL CLOSING J.

Kwan: The latest statistics show there are some 85 patients waiting for orthopedic surgery at Eagle Ridge Hospital. Some of those patients have been wait- ing for as long as four months for surgery. As a result of the B.C. Liberals' decision to close St. Mary's, as many as 306 patients also waiting for orthopedic sur- gery will be transferred to Eagle Ridge — more than tripling the size of the waiting list. Can the Minister of Health explain to patients wait- ing for orthopedic surgery at Eagle Ridge and St. Mary's why the government is forcing them to wait even longer? [1415] Hon. C.

Hansen: There's some good news the mem- ber may not be aware of. Actually, in the last year we increased the number of hip replacements done in this province by 14 percent; we increased the number of knee replacements done in B.C. by 11.3 percent. Also, some- thing the member may not be aware of is that just last week, Fraser health authority opened the fifth operating room at Eagle Ridge in order to build more capacity for that fast-growing part of the lower mainland.

In addition to that, they're planning to open a sixth operating room at Eagle Ridge to make sure that the increased capacity can be developed to meet the needs of patients. I was faced with information earlier, in the last month and a half, that indicated to me that the St. Mary's board was going to run out of working capital by January of next year. I had an obligation to make sure that the very patients the member is referring to can continue to get access to the care they need into the new year, and the decision was made that those ser- vices would be transferred to other facilities. J.

Kwan: You know, with all due respect to the Minister of Health, that answer just doesn't wash. The fact is Eagle Ridge's wait-list has actually gone up, and since this government took office, orthopedic wait-lists h a v e e x p l o d e d , r i s i n g b y m o r e t h a n 5 3 p e r c e n t . S t . Mary's is an important centre for orthopedic surgery. Now, as a result of its closure, patients will have to wait even longer.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7781 There are 1,433 British Columbians waiting now for cataract surgery at St. Mary's. Most of those patients will be transferred to Burnaby Hospital, where there are already 780 patients waiting for the same proce- dure. Some of those patients have been on the wait-list for six months. Can the minister tell patients how much l o ng e r t he y wi l l hav e t o b e f o rc e d t o wai t f o r c at a rac t surgery as a result of his decision to close St. Mary's? Hon. C.

Hansen: I have every confidence that the Fraser health authority is going to be able to build the capacity that is necessary to make sure patients con- tinue to get access to the care they are counting on, whether that's at any of the facilities in the region. The decision as to what the future of St. Mary's is, is clearly up to the board at St. Mary's. I was provided with information that showed that they were going into a financial crisis as of January.

That very information called into question whether or not the patients who were counting on that ophthal- mology care or the orthopedic care or the other services that would be provided…. Those patients would not necessarily be able to count on getting that care at St. Mary's, given the financial crunch that they were fac- ing. We made the right decision to make sure that pa- tients in the Fraser Valley and throughout the province can continue to get access to the care they need in a timely fashion. Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a further supplementary. J. Kwan: You know what?

This is the same minister who campaigned during the election to British Colum- bians that they'll get health care when they need it and where they need it. Wait-lists for eye surgery have al- ready gone up by 11 percent since this government took power, and now patients have to wait even longer. There are 247 patients now waiting for general surgery at Eagle Ridge, but now 70 more patients will be added to that list because of the decision to close St. Mary's. Again to the minister.

He can spin all he likes and he can blame everybody else and not take responsibil- ity for his own government's action, but the facts are simple. Under this government, wait-lists for general surgery have increased — up by more than 12 percent. Can he tell patients waiting for general surgery at Ea- gle Ridge Hospital and at St. Mary's why they're being made to wait even longer? Hon. C. Hansen: Actually, the greatest increase in wait-lists happened in this province during the 1990s when her party was in office, in government.

Last year we increased the number of major procedures that were done in this province, we increased the number of hip replacements, and we increased the number of knee replacements. Quite frankly, I think she should think carefully about the comments she has just made, because what she is asking is that we continue to make patients vulnerable to receiving their care in a facility that had already indicated to us they were going to run out of working capital come January.

That's not accept- able, from my perspective, and we had to take action to make sure that those very patients continue to get ac- cess to the care they are counting on. [1420] COLLECTIVE BARGAINING PROCESS IN EDUCATION SYSTEM R. Nijjar: My question is to the Minister of Skills Development and Labour. In the past ten years, every collective agreement reached with teachers in the pub- lic education system has involved some form of gov- ernment intervention.

This is a frustrating experience for all parties involved, including parents and students, and reflects that the current bargaining structure is seriously flawed and in need of review. In light of these facts and the expiration of the current agreement in June 2004, can the minister tell us what he is doing to address this issue? Hon. G. Bruce: The member is absolutely correct. We've seen a sad history of poor negotiations — in fact, none to speak of — in regard to getting collective set- tlement with respect to the teachers. I think it was Bill 26 back in the year 2002 that settled the most recent dispute. Under

section 5, the minister was empowered to go ahead with the review process of the bargaining s t r u c t u r e , a n d I g a v e t h a t s o m e t i m e s o t h e p a r t i e s could heal, if you'd like.

At this point I have had Don Wright, a former dep- uty minister to this government and a former Deputy Minister of Education in the past administration, re- viewing and meeting with different groups and or- g a n i z a t i o n s t o b r i n g f o r w a r d t o m e s o m e a d v i c e o n how best to structure a process where we could bring the parties together and see if we could come up with a new process that would allow for collective negotia- tions to take place.

The member would be interested to know that prior to this, I met with the BCTF, the School Trustees Association and the Principals and Vice-principals As- sociation as well as several other union organizations that work within the school districts. All agreed that the structure we are faced with today does not work, and all indicated to me that it was… Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Hon. G. Bruce: …worth our attempt to get a new process in place. INCIDENT AT VANCOUVER ISLAND REGIONAL CORRECTIONAL CENTRE S. Brice: My question is to the Solicitor General.

In the spring I asked the Solicitor General regarding a disturbance that had occurred at the Wilkinson Road jail on January 21 and was assured at the time that at no time was the neighbourhood at risk. I understand

7782 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 there are some recommendations from the B.C. correc- tions branch that are currently under review. Could the Solicitor General please give my constituents an update on those recommendations? Hon. R. Coleman: The disturbance ended peace- fully, without injury, although there was a significant amount of damage to one of the living units at the time in January 2003. After every incident like this one, we actually do a review of our policies, procedures and risks. That report has been completed and has been reviewed by the ministry staff.

There were a number of recommendations around the correctional centre's contingency plans, actions with regard to a tactical unit and with regard to some of our emergency mechanical services. All of these rec- ommendations have been acted upon. People in our corrections facilities actually have a pretty difficult and dangerous job, and I'm pleased we were able to avoid any serious injuries. I am confident that the corrections system will be better for this report, so we will imple- ment some of the recommendations across the system. SETTLEMENT OF POWER EXPORT CASE BETWEEN B.C. AND CALIFORNIA P.

Nettleton: The public has read contradictory statements this week on the announced out-of-court settlement between the state of California and B.C. Hy- dro. Some reports state that B.C. Hydro has forfeited up to $450 million (Canadian) owed them for power exports. The Minister of Energy has stated — contrary to this — that with this settlement, in effect, B.C. has a much better chance to obtain the $282 million that is owed to us by California.

I'm not as concerned with the dollar differences but with the fact that the minister is still of the view that California still feels obligated to pay B.C. for power delivered, in spite of continued opposition by the Cali- fornia Attorney General and others in the United States. Will the minister disclose comprehensively the details of the settlement, including all of the facts re- garding its total cost to the taxpayers of British Colum- bia so that we may know whether we have won some- thing here or not? [1425] Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, British Columbians have won something. B.C.

Hydro asked that there be a spe- cial hearing with FERC about their — Powerex, I should say — actions in sales of electricity to California during their difficult time in the year 2000-01. B.C. Hy- dro and Powerex had been put in the same box as En- ron and all the other ones that were actually taking total advantage of the system. Powerex always said all they did was sell into a system that was set up by someone else. We asked for a special hearing on that. We got that special hearing. Out of that special hearing came a number of good things. One of them is that B.C.

Hydro and Powerex were not involved in any of those scan- dals. That's good news for Powerex, and that's good news for the people of B.C., who own B.C. Hydro. We've not had any collusion of any kind with any other organization in the U.S. to try and make the prices higher than they should be. We have won that. The issue about the $282 million is a totally separate issue that we continue to pursue. They are two sepa- rate things. But there is good news for British Colum- bians. SURGERY WAIT-LISTS AND IMPACT OF ST. MARY'S HOSPITAL CLOSING J.

Kwan: Under this government, wait-lists have increased by more than 20 percent. In 12 of the 14 cate- gories wait-lists have increased. Now the government is closing an important hospital where over 2,400 peo- ple are waiting for surgery. When the Liberals were in opposition, they went ballistic over wait-lists. Now the government is deliberately jacking the wait-lists up. To the Minister of Health Services: after more than two years in power, why are wait-lists getting much longer, when he promised they would be getting shorter? Hon. C.

Hansen: The good news is that the health care system, as we have redesigned it, is actually able to do more procedures than it has in the past. We had an increase last year of 38,000 in terms of the number of major procedures that were billed through the Medical Services Plan.

I mentioned earlier that we had an in- crease in the number of hip replacements that were done last year by 14 percent, an increase in the number of knee replacements by 11.3 percent, an increase in the number of cardiovascular listings by 4.4 percent, an increase in obstetrics by 3 percent, an increase in surgi- cal procedures by 4 percent and an increase in proce- dural cardiology by 8.45 percent. The health care sys- tem is meeting the needs of British Columbians. MOUNTAIN PINE BEETLE CONTROL T. Christensen: My question is to the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection. Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. Let's hear the question. T. Christensen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As all members of this House know, the pine beetle infestation has had a devastating effect on forests all around British Columbia. In fact, I'm told it has at- tacked upwards of four million hectares of forest, which is significantly more than what was destroyed in the Okanagan fires this last summer. Unfortunately, my part of the province, North Okanagan, has not been immune to this outbreak, and these little pine beetles do not respect park boundaries.

As a result, a number of my constituents have raised concerns about the im-

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7783 pact of pine beetles on the trees within Silver Star Pro- vincial Park and the potential fire hazard that is creat- ing in the park for the adjacent resort area. Can the minister tell my constituents what strategy the ministry is adopting to attack the mountain pine beetle within Silver Star Provincial Park? Hon. J. Murray: I know the issue of the pine beetle is one that's of concern to the member's constituents — and park staff, as well, actually. That's why I accepted the member's invitation last month to go visit the site and see for myself.

Looking at the number of marked trees, it was clear that there's an extensive infestation which over time will lead to more and more standing dead timber and fuel hazards for fire. [1430] Normally, prescribed fire might be used as a fuel management tool. In this case, it's clear that would cre- ate safety concerns and property damage in the Silver Star area, which would be a completely unacceptable risk. That's exactly why my ministry has a tree removal policy to allow us to remove such hazards. In this case, tree removal using environmentally sensitive methods and full restoration is the prescription.

We're in the planning stages for removing approximately 25,000 to 30,000 cubic metres of standing dead trees and beetle- infested wood to deal with this issue. [End of question period.] Reports from Committees B. Locke: I have the honour to present the second report of the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services for the fourth session of the thirty-seventh parliament respecting a special funding request by the information and privacy commissioner. I move that the report be taken as read and re- ceived. Motion approved. B.

Locke: I ask leave of the House to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report. Leave granted. B. Locke: In moving the adoption of the report, I would like to make some brief comments. The commit- tee held three meetings to consider the subject of spe- cial funding for the information and privacy commis- sioner as he begins his statutory and oversight duties under the new Personal Information Protection Act.

After careful consideration, the committee recom- mends that the information and privacy commissioner be granted a sum of $292,000 to defray expenses in relation to duties regarding the act for the present fiscal year. I move that the report be adopted. Motion approved. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: Mr. Speaker, before I call the or- ders for this afternoon, I'm advised that Sean Leslie, a CKNW reporter here in the Legislature, lost his father rather suddenly over the weekend. I ask that you, on our behalf, send our condolences to him and his family. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. Hon. G.

Collins: I call Committee of the Whole House for consideration of Bill 63. Committee of the Whole House YOUTH JUSTICE ACT (continued) The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 63; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:34 p.m. On

section 1 (continued). Hon. G. Hogg: I w a n t e d t o a d d a c o u p l e o f c o m - ments in response to the member's questions this morning. She made reference to those children in care over the age of 16 and suggested there had been…. I think the word was "decimated" in terms of the num- bers. [1435] I just wanted to point out that there are almost 1,500 children in that age group in the care of the min- istry, which is an 8 percent reduction over the past three years. There are 190 children in that age group who are on youth agreements, which is an increase.

The numbers are, hopefully, reflective of need as it exists within the community. J. Kwan: I just want to be clear. When the comment about the services being decimated…. It's not the op- position who raised that issue. It's the people on the ground in the community who are providing services to youth that are saying that. I quote from the newspa- per of November 1, Amy O'Brian. This is a quote from a person on the ground: Michelle Fortin, the executive director of Watari, a youth and family community ser- vices executive director.

She said: "The reality is that services to the kids between the ages of 16 and 19 have been decimated." The further issue that had been raised by people on the ground is this: "There's an unwritten expectation out there on social workers to not take any young per- son over the age of 16 into care, and it doesn't matter how motivated the young person is." That's a quote, once again, from Michelle Fortin, in the newspaper. It's not being made up, in terms of the reality of what people are being faced with out in the commu- nity. The government has reduced some $500,000 from its programming.

The minister is suggesting that the

7784 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 reduction in the programming, and the reduction in the caseload, is a result of the children-in-care caseload dropping. If the feeling from the community is that those caseloads are dropping, not as a result of need but rather as a result of some unwritten expectation on social workers to not take a young person over the age of 16 into care, then we have a problem. I would actually suggest that the numbers perhaps show that.

If the minister says there are some 1,500 young people — the number who are now in care, which is a reduction of about 8 percent — yet the youth agreement category has an increase, then it actually jibes with what the community is saying — that there is an issue here. There is an issue in terms of what service is available and what is not. I would assert that one of the important things this minister needs to be doing is ensure that the programs are available.

I understand the need to try and reduce caseload numbers in the ministry, and I would be happy if the numbers were reducing because the de- mand was not there — not through some force outside of the real need but rather through the force of the min- ister trying to drive budget numbers to meet his tar- gets. That's a concern. When you have community workers saying that services for children — youth be- tween the ages of 16 and 19 — are decimated, then I would say we have a problem. I would suggest that the minister ought to be turning his attention and energies into addressing that issue.

The question I asked the minister earlier is about other expanded programs for the community in terms of the intensive support programs, which is a key in- tervention youth program, as one option to address this question we're debating and in dealing with the flexibility provisions that have been made available under the federal Youth Criminal Justice Act. The ques- tion to the minister is: did the government and did this minister consider any of these other measures to ad- dress the flexibility provisions that have been made available under the federal Youth Criminal Justice Act? [1440] Hon. G.

Hogg: In response to the member's question and commentary, just with respect to the $500,000 reduc- tion which was referenced, it is in the community youth justice area. A budget of $34 million is the amount for youth justice. This represents a 1.5 percent reduction in that budget at a time when there's been a caseload re- duction of some 30 percent. So it seems quite equitable to say that that is referencing and is consistent with the expectations. When we reduce the caseloads by 30 per- cent, a 1.5 percent reduction is a reasonable response to that.

As well, we're trying to diversify and ensure that our programs are adequate and appropriate across the full spectrum of services needed. The member also referenced the issue of intensive supervision and support, and I think we dealt with that earlier this morning as well. We do have, by far, the best intensive support programs in Canada. There have been no reductions to that, and it is generally accepted and recognized as the most adequate in terms of the range of supports available in youth justice services in Canada. We did look at that; we are happy with that.

We are quite satisfied that we continue to have the best sup- port programs available for community support in the youth justice area. J. Kwan: I understand the member from Vernon has some questions for the minister, and I have further questions for the minister under this

section as well. I have, however, to step out of the House for a few mo- ments. So I'm going to yield the floor to the member from Vernon, and I'll return to ask further questions of the minister on this section. T. Christensen: I just have a few brief questions in respect of some of the

definitions in

section

Section 1 deals specifically with

definitions that then apply through the rest of the act. Some of my questions are intended to get clarification as to exactly what the in- tent is. Certainly, this first question is. I find that in the definition of "contraband" — under subsection (

f) there — it refers to "the person in charge of a youth custody centre." That term "the person in charge" is referred to on a few occasions through the act. The question that comes to mind is: is there a single person in charge of each youth custody centre, or is it the person in charge at any particular time when somebody might find themselves? Obviously, the rele- vance in terms of contraband is that one of the aspects of what would constitute contraband under this act is any substance that, in the opinion of the person in charge of a youth custody centre, may threaten the management, etc., of the facility.

So my hope is that the person in charge is actually the person in charge at the time I or somebody else actually arrives there; it's not just a single person. Hon. G. Hogg: The member is correct; it is the lat- ter. It is the person who is in charge of the institution. Obviously, the director of the institution is not there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so it is the officer or the staff member who is in charge at any given point in time at the facility who would make those determina- tions. T. Christensen: Thank you to the minister for that clarification.

The second question is with respect to the defini- tion of what is an offence, which is "the contravention of an enactment." I know there's often some confusion when we speak about justice issues generally, because of the shared jurisdiction between the federal govern- ment and the provincial government. Perhaps the min- ister could just expand briefly on what constitutes an enactment for the purposes of this legislation. [1445] Hon. G. Hogg: The enactment is limited only to provincial statutes. It doesn't apply to any of the fed- eral legislation around that.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7785 T. Christensen: With respect to the definition of parent, would that include a foster parent? Hon. G. Hogg: It would not apply to a foster par- ent. However, if it was a child who was in the care of the state, there would be a social worker who would act as the guardian, and in fact the state may be the parent. Therefore, in that instance there would be dele- gated authority to act in that manner in that case. T. Christensen: What's a consequence of being a parent for the purposes of the act? I know certainly there's a provision further on — I think it's

section 5 — that deals with the requirement to provide notice to a parent where a youth has been arrested or is otherwise in trouble. But can the minister explain sort of the broader implications of being found to be a parent un- der this act? Hon. G. Hogg: Well, the consequence of being a parent for the purposes of this act includes ensuring…. The intent of the state is that young people have their parents, and their parents are informed, interested, involved and have every opportunity to attend the proceedings, to participate in the proceedings and to be a part of the decision-making process.

So it's an intent, an expectation, that the role of parents becomes part of the court proceedings and process to ensure that they're engaged, involved in and can carry out the roles and expectations which are normally expected of par- ents with respect to young persons. T. Christensen: Is there any legal obligation im- posed on a parent to participate in the proceedings or to actually be involved in their child's justice problem? [1450] Hon. G. Hogg: There's a requirement for notifica- tion, but the judge has discretionary ability to make a determination with respect to whether or not a parent must attend.

Some of the criteria that would be used or the tests applied with respect to that would have to do with the maturity of the young person. Obviously, if it was a 12-year-old person, the judge would be more likely to compel the parents to be in attendance, rather than somebody who might have been independent and out on their own for some considerable length of time. Ultimately, the judge has the discretion with respect to making that determination. K.

Stewart: I have a question with regard to the definition of "sentence." Further along, it talks about if a person has been sentenced and they get an absolute discharge. When they get an absolute discharge, the court considers it to be in the best interests of the young person and not contrary to the public interest. Is it at that point considered a sentence, under the defini- tion of "sentence," if they get an absolute discharge? Hon. G. Hogg: Yes, an absolute discharge is deemed to be a sentence under the purposes of the act. J. Kwan: The flexibility programs that the minister talked about earlier….

The specific question I had was in relation to intensive support. Perhaps the minister can enlighten me and tell me what's happening in that area, particularly with intensive support programs for youth. Hon. G. Hogg: Just expanding on the notion of intensive supervision or support for youth, it is indeed a long-established program with the Vancouver metro intensive support and supervision program, the DARE program in Vancouver, the Fraser region intensive su- pervision program. These primarily provide one-to-one workers who have caseloads of from six to ten.

They provide for the support and supervision of conditions, support and recreation, mentoring, assistance in all kinds of fashions. This government, this ministry, has expanded that program. There was $400,000 that has gone out to the north and interior to provide intensive supervision in some of the smaller communities rather than just the metro areas, so they have access to that. On top of that $400,000, in terms of contracting for intensive supervi- sion, there have been a further 18 full-time persons who have been allocated to work in it.

So it is seen as a broad-based program — a program that provides an alternative to custody, a program that helps provide the comprehensive range of services which are in the best interests of being able to provide supports to youths who are in conflict with the law. [1455] J. Kwan: Would there be new moneys to this minis- try to enhance the intensive programs that the minister talked about, new moneys that were being considered for this upcoming budget and new moneys that the minister will be injecting in addition to the bill we're debating today in dealing with youth justice issues? Hon. G.

Hogg: As I've stated, there have been a further 18 staff members and $400,000 which have gone into these programs in the interior and the north. We will not be expanding it beyond that. We have the broadest range of intensive supervision programs in Canada with that expansion, and we have a declining caseload. We are meeting the need adequately at this time — in fact, more than adequately. J. Kwan: With all due respect, I would suggest that we would need more funding and more support in these areas.

The minister may think it's adequate, but the reality is that the people on the ground, in the community, are saying it is not — particularly for a youth between the ages of 16 and 19 — to the point where people are saying they feel resources and access to programs for this age group have been decimated. The crisis is in fact increasing as opposed to decreasing, as the minister would like to suggest. I'd like to ask the minister this question. The federal legislation differentiates violent versus non-violent crimes and aims to reserve custody — or jail time, as

7786 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 the Solicitor General likes to call it in the media — for violent crime. Was the new provincial youth act guided by this same philosophy? Hon. G. Hogg: I think there may be some confusion in some of the questions or references the member has made with respect to the articles in the paper, which I think are referring to issues that may have to do with child welfare as opposed to the youth justice issues we're focusing on today. I don't think there was, to my recollection, any reference to youth justice within the context of those articles.

While we're looking at comprehensive service de- livery models, it is clear that today we're talking about those matters as they apply to youth justice rather than to the issues of child welfare. While there is certainly some overlap, there is clarity with respect to the expan- sion that has taken place in youth justice and the reduc- tion of some 30 percent in the caseloads or the de- mands there. With respect to the specific question as to whether or not the same principles were being followed, the answer is yes.

In this provincial legislation, custody has been maintained only for those most serious of the provincial statutes and is in fact not available for less serious crimes. There is a distinction and a line drawn between those to reflect the role of custody as a conse- quence. J. Kwan: No, there isn't any confusion in my mind. The issue here is this.

We're debating this youth justice bill, which the Solicitor General and the Attorney Gen- eral are on the record in the media saying they want to see in place because it is meant to be a deterrent for youth crime and particularly for serious crimes, as the Solicitor General has put it.

The message that I think the Solicitor General is trying to put forward is, of course, the notion that we need to be tough on crime, particularly in dealing with youth — even though the statistics show that youth crime is actually on the de- cline and has been for at least ten years. [1500] The issue that I raise with the Minister of Children and Family Development deals with children at risk. We know that children at risk particularly are the sec- tors or groups of people that may well come into con- flict with the law down the road.

If the programs for dealing with children at risk, for youth at risk, are not adequate, then we run the risk of seeing more prob- lems amongst the youth population. The best solution, by far — in dealing with children at risk, youth at risk, in preventing crime — is to do some preventative measures, which is why I raise these questions, Mr. Chair, in relation to this bill that we're debating today.

If we want to talk about decreasing youth crime, if we want to talk about some measure of deterrence, if you will, then if you ask the experts what are the best things that one could do, what are the best things that governments could do, government is saying, "Increase your preventative programs or your preventative measures, " and that's how these items link. That's why I ask about the intensive programming that has proven to be effective, which the community folks on the ground are saying is what we should be doing.

This is why I ask, say and suggest that we should be increas- ing the funding in those areas instead of actually bring- ing forward a bill to deal with more jail time for youth — more custody time, if you will. Jail time for youth, by the way, is the term the So- licitor General has used in the media. I'm suggesting perhaps the minister should be putting his attention to the area where you can actually prevent the crime from taking place in the first place, and that is preventative measures. They fall directly in the mandate of this min- ister, and that's how these two things link.

You can't separate one from the other. The notion of where, in my view, in the philosophy of deterring youth crime by putting in tough measures would work in the context where youth crimes have actually gone down is a mys- tery to me. This is why I asked the minister the ques- tion: where did this philosophy come from? How was it guided, which brought this piece of legislation before us? Hon. G. Hogg: I think the answer to the member's question is that, in fact, we do need both. We have in- creased our funding for early childhood development, for intensive supervision and for family development.

That is an important part of the focus, but we also need deterrence. There are two kinds of deterrence: individ- ual and general deterrence. Individual deterrence is based on the premise that the imposition of a conse- quence or a punishment will cause the individual of- fender to refrain from breaking the law again. Individ- ual deterrence therefore occurs after the law is broken, and it prevents further or future offending. General deterrence, on the other hand, is based on the premise that persons who might otherwise commit offences will refrain from doing so because of the fear of the consequences.

Those fears include custody. Therefore, general deterrence prevents crime in the first place. While I will allow that as a general rule ado- lescents do not typically think about the consequences of their actions nor think they may be caught, there is no question that a young person who does experience a custody sentence for a very serious offence will think again before repeating that offence when he is returned to the community — again, individual deterrence.

However, while not all youth may think or learn from the example of what individual youth do, it is likely that at least those in his immediate circle will know what consequences were imposed on the indi- vidual, and they, too, will think twice about commit- ting similar offences — which is, again, general deter- rence.

For example, a youth who breaks a principal's order to leave the school grounds because of gang- related activities will be individually deterred in a seri- ous consequence if a serious consequence were im- posed, while his gang colleagues will be generally de- terred after learning about his sentence — therefore, the difference between individual and general deter- rence.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7787 [1505] As the member will note,

section 8 provides for the option of a custody sentence for a specified list of the most serious of provincial statute offences. The com- mon theme in the selection of the listed offences is the need to maintain the integrity of the administration of justice, and of safety and order in key public services.

These offences are all concerned with breaches of court orders or with serious intrusions into key public insti- tutions, specifically failure to comply with a youth sen- tence; driving while prohibited; bringing contraband into or trespass of a youth custody centre or adult cor- rectional centre, which are also part of the administra- tion of justice; a breach of a protective intervention order under the Child, Family and Community Service Act; contravention of a school principal's order to re- frain from being on school premises; assisting or coun- selling a patient to leave a mental health facility. Mr.

Chair, it is vital that firm consequences at least be available to the court to address the most egregious circumstances in these kinds of serious offences. If not, then there is a danger that the administration of justice and the maintenance of the integrity and order of these important public institutions could be undermined. As a specific example for the member,

section 28 and

section 98 of the Child, Family and Community Service Act allow for the court to make a protective intervention order or a restraining order in circum- stances where a child or a youth is being sexually ex- ploited. Usually these orders are made against adults and, quite thankfully, rarely against youth. Nonetheless, there are some youths who are in- volved in the pimping of young girls. If a protective intervention is made against a youth and that youth breaches that court order by contacting the sexually exploited girl again, the present law does not permit the court to impose a custody sentence.

We would have a situation where a youth is being sexually exploited, and the court order that attempts to continue can only deal with that continued exploitation by placing yet another court order or probation. I think that is simply wrong in this circumstance. We cannot have youth breaching court orders with impunity in serious circumstances and putting other children at risk. Such measures tend to undermine the integrity of the administration of our justice and, I be- lieve, erode confidence in the justice system. This type of legislation will help to restore some confidence in such instances.

I think the specific exam- ple of a young male who is involved in sexual exploita- tion of a child, wherever that may be…. With a court order under the Child, Family and Community Service Act, this will give the courts the opportunity to impose at least a custody sentence — albeit short — in an effort to protect the young girl, as provided in this instance. I believe that is the right way to go. We need to have deterrence.

We need to have the ability to protect youth in those circumstances and to maintain the in- tegrity of the court system rather than having the only access to the judges in those matters being that of plac- ing it under further probation order. It is clear in that circumstance that there is need for heightened sanc- tions in order to protect the public and maintain the integrity of the system, and this does precisely that. J. Kwan: Thank you, hon. Chair, with the exception that there are some gaping holes in the minister's ar- gument.

Aside from the issue that the resources are inadequate in terms of preventative measures for youth, there are also issues raised by others with re- spect to the enforcement side of things. Let me actually just put on the record a letter to the editor of the Vancouver Sun o n N o v e m b e r 3 b y B . C . Crown Counsel Association president David Jardine. He writes: "The recently published Vancouver Board of Trade study on property crime in Vancouver initiated much debate last week in the Legislature about crime.

The introduction of the Youth Justice Act, Bill 63, and reports of increased organized crime have also contributed to the discussion. The Premier, Attorney General and Solicitor General have all assured the public of their commitment to safe streets. "But none of this debate has touched upon the impact that budget cuts introduced by this government are having upon the ability of provincial Crown counsel to prosecute crimes.

Without a concurrent commitment to increase the resources given to prosecute crimes, there is little public benefit in hiring new police officers or introducing new legislation. [1510] "The budget for prosecuting services was reduced this year by $5.5 million, with more to come next year. Victim services offices have been eliminated. The work that used to be done by 35 victim services workers is now done by Crown counsel, who are already stretched far too thin. "Senior Crown counsel are leaving and taking their years of experience and judgment with them.

The remaining Crown counsel have been told there is not enough money in the budget to fund job reclassification to replace the lawyers who have left, even though they are prosecuting the most serious and high-profile cases in the province. "The Crown counsel office is in trouble, and with due respect to the Premier, Attorney General and Solicitor General, it will take more than verbal assurances that the government is committed to safe streets and safe communities to fix it." "David Jardine, President B.C.

Crown Counsel Association" With all due respect to this minister, he can sort of stand up and say, "Hey, everything is fine. The pro- grams are being funded. Do not worry. Things are fine, and we're putting these measures in place," but in real- ity there are gaping holes in dealing with the issue, and the minister knows this. It appears to me that there isn't any differentiation between violent and non-violent crimes in the drafting of this piece of legislation.

I think the philosophy that actually prompted this government to act is from the Solicitor General's notion that somehow the penalties, if you will, for youth are too soft. He wants to send a message, just a message, for political reasons that we need to be tough on crime for youth instead of actually

7788 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 trying to deal with the problems — wanting to prevent the crimes from taking place to begin with. The Solicitor General also made some noise last week about introducing legislation next spring to make strip searches of prisoners Charter-proof. Is there any- thing in Bill 63 that anticipates this legislation as far as youth custody centres are concerned? Hon. G. Hogg: Just with respect to the comments on Crown and prosecution, the youth court cases in '91-92 were 13,224.

The latest numbers we have are for 2000-01, in which there were 9,727, which represents a 25 percent reduction in the workload of Crown in the youth justice area — as the member made reference to Mr. Jardine. [1515] It should also be pointed out, as we did this morn- ing, that this act does not change the sentencing. It just changes the consequences. There will be no change in terms of the increase of work that Crown would be involved in. The demands or the sanctions that could be provided are the only difference. It should have no impact on the workload of Crown. I'm sure Mr.

Jar- dine, when he has a chance to look at it, would under- stand that. The other question is with respect to strip searches that were made reference to. The Solicitor General, I think, made reference to that within the context of the Vancouver Jail, and that's contained under the Correc- tion Act. He has suggested he will be reviewing the issue and addressing it in the future. If, in fact, there are amendments made or changes to the Correction Act that required there to be consequential amend- ments to this act, then that would be looked at and undertaken at that point in time. J.

Kwan: Yes, youth crime has been on the decline, as I had mentioned during this debate, but the reality, of course, is that other crimes — property crimes par- ticularly — h a v e b e e n o n t h e i n c r e a s e u n d e r t h i s L i b - eral watch. The Crown counsel's office has had to deal with those kinds of increases as well. The $5.5 million impacting the Crown counsel's office is not limited to just the youth services component but is for this entire operation. The reality is that the Crown counsel prose- cutors are actually having a tough time as a result of the budget cuts from this government.

If this government is really serious about doing something about preventing crime and preventing re- peat offenders from committing crimes, as the Minister of Children and Family Development was just claim- ing, then why is the Solicitor General cutting his public safety and policing budget by almost $20 million this year? Why is he increasing the number of cases that each probation officer must now be responsible for? This will mean, for example, less supervision for peo- ple out on the streets or under house arrest, which is a population at considerable risk for re-offending.

Why not put the money back into enforcing existing laws instead of just creating new ones for public window dressing? Hon. G. Hogg: There has been an enormous reduc- tion in the number of youth property crimes. In 1991 there were 13,504 and in 2002 some 4,700, so there's a dramatic shift with respect to that. With respect, it ob- viously has an impact on the workload that grows out of that. With respect to youth probation officers and the caseloads they carry, the caseloads in British Co- lumbia average 23, which is the lowest in Canada for youth probation officers.

In about 1997, I believe it was, the caseloads averaged closer to 53. [1520] There has been a dramatic improvement in terms of that and in the ability of the youth probation officer to provide more personalized, individualized attention to each individual on their caseload to ensure that they're able to provide for the range of services we have been talking about as we move forward. With the issue of probation and youth probation officers, we are amongst the very best or are certainly the best in Can- ada in terms of the caseload numbers. J.

Kwan: It doesn't change the reality that the Solici- tor General's office has actually cut some $20 million in public safety and policing services. The minister, I think, knows this very well. When I say that property crime had been on the increase, I'm not talking about property crime conducted by youth. I'm talking about property crime in the general population. I'm talking about crime generally speaking. All except for youth crime has actually been on the increase. When we talk about the prosecution services and the budget being reduced by some $5.5 million….

Their office has to deal with the entire spectrum of crimes that are being committed in British Columbia and prosecute them accordingly, not just the youth segment itself. So it's misleading, to say the least, to try and skew the numbers in the way in which I think the min- ister is trying to suggest. Aside from the items that I have raised, there's an- other issue here. That is that we understand that Bill 63 anticipates further regionalization of youth justice ser- vices.

Can the minister, first of all, indicate what sec- tions of the bill are relevant in that regard, and will this regionalization occur after, before or concurrently with the fulfilment of the government's new-era promise to return 75 percent of the traffic fines collected to mu- nicipal governments? Hon. G. Hogg: Continuing on the previous discus- sion with respect to the number of offences, there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of offences for b o t h a d u l t s a n d y o u t h . T h e m e m b e r i s f o c u s i n g o n youth and acknowledging the adults as part of it.

But still, if we look at the number of property offences in 1991, there were 303,838, and in 2002 there were 268,866 property offences. So, again, there has been a dramatic reduction in those numbers, which is re- flected in the workload. The member asked questions with respect to re- gionalization being contemplated, anticipated and fa- cilitated with respect to Bill 63. That is in fact the case.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7789 With respect to the timing, that's contingent upon meeting the readiness criteria, and that will include ensuring that there is adequate service transformation and that our budget targets are under control and be- ing met before the governance model is put into place. [1525] There is an active involvement of the community in that area, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal commu- nity. There are planning committees existing in each region of the province. There have been over 14,000 consultations that have taken place with respect to those.

It is our expectation that they will meet those as well as the KPMG readiness criteria sometime within the next two years. That is the expectation. That is the focus they're working on. I think the outside date that the aboriginal community was seeking was 2006, with a recognition that they needed more time to develop capacity and an ability to respond to these matters.

With respect to the question regarding the 75 per- cent return of traffic fines to communities, the Premier responded to that in the recent past and said that it was a commitment that was made and would be completed prior to the end of the term of this government or prior to the next election. Consistent with that, the time frames that we're dealing with for regionalization are consistent with the numbers that we've laid out in our service plans and continue to work with. J.

Kwan: The minister knows very well that crime actually had been on the increase, save and except for youth crime, and particularly property crime. I have just sent a note to my office for them to send me the stats so I can put that on record. For the minister to suggest otherwise is simply untrue. It's simply untrue, and I'll put the stats on the record when I receive that, Mr. Chair. [H. Long in the chair.] It's interesting, as well, in terms of this minister trying to deny the fact that the government is not actu- ally funding preventative measures in a way that I think is demanded for the community.

The community have actually come forward and said that the programs for ages 16 to 19, for youth, have been decimated. In spite of what the people on the ground are saying, this minister is saying: "Don't worry. Everything is fine, and things will proceed accordingly." It is interesting to note, as well, that a report con- ducted by this government came forward with summa- ries and conclusions calling on the government to put more resources into preventative measures as a way to deal with youth crimes.

Just to take a quick quote from this document, the report paid for by the government, entitled Profiling the Repeat Offender: Implications for Early Intervention by Nicholson and Artz, 2003: "Our child welfare, education and mental health systems must also have prominent roles in responding to the needs of these youth. We see that focusing on early prevention and intervention may provide the best chance for reducing recidivism by preventing children's involvement in the youth justice system in the first place.

The evidence points to the need for very early intervention for at-risk children, zero-to-five years, and their families… "We need to offer parenting supports for families, develop and fund school-based identification and intervention programs and ensure that effective links are developed between prevention and intervention initiatives. Improved integration of funding and operation of all child-serving organizations is imperative.

"If we take seriously the proven relationship between poverty and youth delinquency, we would do more to e n s u r e t h a t p a r e n t s o f y o u n g c h i l d r e n h a v e a c c e s s t o employment opportunities. We would consider implementing graduation incentive programs to motivate youth to finish their high-school education." You know, instead of going in this direction, Mr. Chair, the government is actually going in the opposite d i re c t i o n. W e k no w t h at i n t h e M i ni s t r y o f E d u c at i o n, there is tremendous pressure in terms of underfunding for programs in the education system.

We know that anti-bullying programs have been taken out. We know that counselling programs have been taken out. Pro- grams that encourage students to stay in the school system — some of those have been eliminated because of the funding pressures put on by this government. To suggest that the government is doing everything it can and in fact is doing a great job is simply false. I would submit that the minister should know better than that — the minister ought to know better than that — and just touting the government line is quite frankly not good enough.

The question to the minister, though, relating to Bill 63 around what sections would be relevant with regard to regionalization of the youth justice services…. I don't believe the minister actually gave me an answer on that. [1530] Hon. G. Hogg: I ' m s u r e w e ' l l b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h that when we get to

section 24, which is the relevant

section dealing with the appointments for regionaliza- tion. J. Kwan: So

section 24, then, deals with regionaliza- tion. On the question around the 75 percent of the traffic fines collected to municipal governments, it is interest- ing because the minister refers to the Premier's comment that in 2005 moneys will be transferred to local govern- ments. The question is actually raised now: why is it that during the campaign, in the New Era document, no- where does it say that 2005 is the year to which the commitment will be made?

Why is that idea a good idea in 2005 — that is to say, 75 percent of the traffic fines will be transferred to municipal governments for policing — and why is it not a good idea now? Hon. G. Hogg: I'm sure the member knows that the new-era commitments were not designated with spe- cific time frames. Certainly, as the government gets its budget in order — given the challenges we have inher- ited — we have to deal with those new-era commit-

7790 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 ments across the course of our mandate, and we will do that. J. Kwan: The economic woes that this government is dealing with are a creation of this government. Make no mistake about that. Unemployment is at a nine-year high under this Liberal government. Unemployment is now over 200,000 in terms of people needing jobs, the highest in nine years — 9.1 percent under the Liberal watch. The government would like to blame everything on the NDP, but the reality is that the responsibility is theirs.

The economic performance under this government is worse than it has ever been in the last decade. The fact is this: the government chose to give tax breaks to the corporations and the highest income earners; and lo and behold, the tax breaks did not pay for themselves. Therefore, they have to cut programs, including the Ministry of Children and Family Devel- opment — $500,000 of which are programs being cut from this ministry, impacting services across the board for many British Columbians and, I would venture to say, impacting children and youth services as well.

The minister knows very well what those impacts are and how the community is hurting as a result of that. There are many program cuts yet to come in the next budget year. So for the minister to try and blame it on the previous government…. Guess what. It's the new era; it's now two and a half years into the Liberal watch. The responsibility is this government's. The Chair: Order for a moment, please, member. I remind the member that we're now on

section 1. We're not in second reading debate, and therefore the House would prefer that you stick to the issues in

section 1 of the bill. J. Kwan: I was just responding to the minister, who tried to blame the previous NDP government for his problems. I'm simply responding to that, Mr. Chair. The final piece that I would raise with the minister is this. When I receive that information, I will actually table it for the minister's information, and that is, of course, the crime statistics and how under the Liberal watch, the crime statistics — all except for youth crime — have actually been on the increase. Property crime particularly has actually been on the increase, contrary to what the minister had suggested.

Section 1 approved. [1535] On

section 2. K. Stewart: With regard to the persons under the age of 12, we all know that crime doesn't really hold off at any age. There's definitely a gravitation towards one's negative peer subculture, and crime is not an area that alleviates this. What do we do about the children under the age of 12 who are committing crimes and who aren't covered by this act? Can the minister com- ment on that? Hon. G. Hogg: We are very consistent with the age 12 and the under age 12 with every province in Can- ada. With under age 12, we don't want to get into the p r o s e c u t i o n .

I t i s m u c h m o r e a p p r o p r i a t e t o r e s p o n d with the parents. We expect parents to take care of their children, to be able to manage them under age 12, and by and large, they do that. In those exceptional instances when that does not occur, there is interven- tion that the state can provide through child welfare, through mental health — a number of support services that can be provided. The end game with respect to that is the apprehension of a child should the parents be unable to control or manage them.

Then they would come into the care of the state, and services would be provided consistent with the practices under the Child, Family and Community Service Act. K. Stewart: We talked about the demographic change of youth and the difference in the numbers of cases handled by the youth probation officers. I believe the comment was that in 1977 there were 53, and in 2001 there were 23. How does that reflect the demo- graphic change of 13-to-16-year-olds, in the compari- son between…?

That seems like almost a 50 percent reduction in the amount of youth being under the di- rection of youth probation officers, as compared to the number of youth out there in those two periods of time. Hon. G. Hogg: I think the member is asking, with respect to the demographics: what are the actual num- bers that are reflected in that? We've seen the projec- tions from StatsCan and B.C. Stats that suggest there will be a reduction, I believe, of some 40,000 children over the course of about a six-year period. We're par- tially into that, so we've seen a reduction of….

I don't know what the exact numbers are, but certainly in the demographics of children under the age of 18, there has been a dramatic reduction. We've seen reductions across the schools of this province and seen a number of schools closing as a result of there not being any higher numbers. We don't have a specific number that we can corre- late the actual numbers to the impact that it's having on caseloads, but we are satisfied that using the caseload management tools, we're able to look at and ensure that the caseloads being carried out by our staff are consistent with their ability to respond to it.

We have more intensive supervision, and we have a better quality of supervision than was in existence when caseloads were at 52 and 53. The youth probation officers are able to take on more responsibilities as a result of that and keep better track of the youths under their charge and, as a result, should be able to provide u s w i t h a s a f e r , m o r e c o n s i s t e n t f o r m o f p r o t e c t i o n within communities. [1540] T. Christensen: On

section 2, Mr. Chair, the minis- ter a few moments ago talked about the situation of how the state can respond to the child under 12 who

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7791 commits what would otherwise be an offence if they were over 12. I certainly recognize that we're talking about a real delicate balance and that we're dealing with pretty young kids here, but at the end of the day the public has a right, I believe, to feel that they are being protected and that protection of the public plays a significant role regardless of the age of an offender. I'd like the minister to expand on what his minis- try's ability is to deal with children who can't be prose- cuted but who may pose a danger to the public.

How does the ministry ensure protection of the public from those children? Recognizing that this is a very, very rare circumstance, it is something that — when it does occur — certainly raises a lot of concern in communi- ties it occurs in, and people do need that assurance. Hon. G. Hogg: There was some media coverage in the not too distant past of a young person under the age of 12 who was involved in car thefts and who ap- peared to be continuing with those car thefts. I assume that's the type of example the member is making refer- ence to.

In those instances where there does not seem to be any way to manage the child within the range of services, then it is one-to-one programming that is put in place, which means there would be one staff mem- ber assigned — in those very rare and exceptional cir- cumstances — to work with and to be with that indi- vidual 24 hours a day. They would work a shift, and then another one-to-one person would come with them.

They manage to work and to control and to pro- tect the public safety by having a correctional officer, it may well be, or certainly a child care worker working one to one with that person and remaining with them 24 hours a day to ensure that the public is kept safe and to ensure that the protection of that child is also guarded and maintained. T. Christensen: Just to follow up on those com- ments, I take it that in that — again, it's a rare circum- stance — one-to-one attention, that child is then getting some pretty intensive attention to any underlying diffi- culties.

I recognize that perhaps the ministry doesn't have a whole pile of these types of cases it can refer to, but is the minister able to comment on whether we've seen any success in handling things that way? Hon. G. Hogg: As you say, the cases are indeed very exceptional and rare. In the matter we have been referring to, there was a comprehensive mental health assessment done for the individual. There was eventu- ally a placement in a family-based care home with con- tinuing support from child care workers and from psy- chiatric experts in the field.

We are cautiously optimistic in this case that the interventions that have taken place are having some successes in helping this child cope more appropriately and adequately with the challenges he sees before him. So there are some examples of our being able to de- velop a case-specific program that meets the psychiat- ric, psychological and social needs of the individual and being able to continue to provide those services in the hopes that the child will have a more normalized life in the future. [1545] J. Kwan: I now have the information with respect to the crime statistics I mentioned earlier.

For the min- ister's information, in the second quarter of 2003 there were 130,268 Criminal Code offences reported in B.C. — 8 percent, or almost 100,000 offences, more than the second quarter of 2002. This number represents a 9 percent increase from the second quarter of 2001 and a 12 percent increase from the second quarter of 2002. Between 2000 and 2003 the number of Criminal Code offences reported has increased an average of 2 per- cent, or approximately 10,000 offences each year.

If you look at the chart that's provided in the 2nd Quarter 2003, Quarterly Crime Report , highlights from 1993 to 2002, the Criminal Code offences and crime rate in B.C. have actually been on a steady decline from 1993 until 2000. Then it started to have a reverse trend, where the numbers started to go up again. Starting in 1993 the number is 516,537; in 1994 it's 516,122; and in 1995 it's 523,317. Then in 1996 it's 535,859; in 1997 it's 504,442; in 1998 it's 487,384; in 1999 it's 467,384; in 2000 it's 459,609; in 2001 it's 470,126; and in 2002 it's 478,635.

In fact, the numbers have actually been taking a reverse trend, if you will. Property offences, including motor vehicle theft, break and enter, fraud, theft and possession of stolen property. In 2002 the police reported 268,866 property offences, an increase of slightly less than 2 percent compared with 264,587 offences reported in 2001. The property crime rate rose 1 percent from the 2001 rate, increasing from 64.5 offences per 1,000 persons to 64.9 per 1,000 persons. The Chair: Would the member please give me the relevance to

section 2. J. Kwan: The relevance is that I'm trying to tie into the minister's earlier answer with respect to crime rate and how it has actually gone up under this government's watch, as opposed to under the previous government. The Chair: Member, I think if you check

section 2, it's to do with children under 12. J. Kwan: Yes. Thank you. But in the context of overall crime trends in B.C., I think it is important to put it into perspective. It was established earlier that youth crime is actually on the decline as opposed to on the increase. All the other crime categories have actu- ally been on the increase since 2003. I'm simply trying to establish that point with the minister. Sections 2 to 5 inclusive approved. On

section 6. J. Kwan: On

section 6, is the change from the "pre- disposition report" in the Young Offenders Act to the

7792 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 "pretrial examination and report" just one of language? The role of the p robation offi cer, in that he o r s he can recommend not going to trial — is that the same as before? Hon. G. Hogg: There is simply a change in the wording, but it also facilitates contracting out, as an example, for aboriginal agencies to be able to carry out some of those responsibilities.

The expectation is that it remains the same, although providing for the provision of contracted aboriginal agencies and perhaps other agencies to carry out those responsibilities as well. [1550] J. Kwan: When the minister talks about contracting out agencies or services in the aboriginal sector and other sectors…. Could he expand on that, please? Hon. G. Hogg: This simply reflects current practice.

In fact, there are some services which have been brought in-house so that we're able to maintain the number of youth probation officers that we have — as an example, community service orders — so that we can continue to function within that. It reflects current practice. J. Kwan: It always makes me worry when any min- ister in this House says it reflects current practice. Usu- ally it means something else. Usually it means it's something brand-new. I don't know if that's the case in this instance, so I'm just going to probe a little bit deeper here with the minister around that issue.

The notion of contracting out their services — in the case of aboriginal community services, could the minis- ter please outline the process in which the government embarks on with respect to that? Hon. G. Hogg: The process would vary in some smaller communities where there would be one service provider. It may be a direct award in some instances where there are a number of agencies which could pro- vide the services. It may well go to tender, and the types of services they would provide would be such things as community service orders, case aides, alternate meas- ures program, intensive supervision programs.

The types of programs we've been talking about would be the types of programs that would fall within that ambit. J. Kwan: When the minister says they would be contracted out, is it non-profit sector community groups who will provide the services on the ground in the community, or would some other private agencies actually bid on these contracts? Hon. G. Hogg: As far as I know or we know within the context of the aboriginal community, there are no for-profit agencies. They are all non-profit within the aboriginal communities. J.

Kwan: Does the ministry embark on consultation processes when the ministry decides to contract out a particular service related to this? Hon. G. Hogg: Yes, we do engage in consultation. J. Kwan: Could the minister please advise with whom? Hon. G. Hogg: If the member is still referring to the continuity of the discussion around the aboriginal is- s u e s , t h e n w e h a v e a m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g which has been signed with the four elected aboriginal leaders in this province: the First Nations Summit, the Union of B.C.

Indian Chiefs, the Métis Provincial Council of B.C. and the United Native Nations. I meet regularly with them, and we continue to consult with them. We also have within each of the five regions aboriginal committees, which are working on the development and planning of programs and pro- gram and service delivery within their regions. I also meet with them on a regular basis, and they meet across the committees.

In fact, the committee for the north was meeting in Prince Rupert, I believe, last week, and they had some 60 people from across the north who were involved in this consultation and who were providing information in support to the ministry. [1555] J. Kwan: What about for the non-aboriginal sector? Hon. G. Hogg: We have a somewhat similar process with the non-aboriginal community. There are five planning committees in existence in five regions of the province. I meet with the chairs of those committees on a fairly regular basis, as well as with the aboriginal chairs, and they provide the input and information.

I think, as we've stated many times, there have been those committee chairs, and the committees in each of the regions of the province have been very active in their participation and involvement in gathering input from the communities. They are the groups who actu- ally involved some 14,000 people across this province in the consultation process. J. Kwan: Could the minister provide the opposition with a list of the contracts and their amounts to organi- zations to which services have been contracted out related to this in the non-aboriginal as well as the abo- riginal sectors? Hon. G.

Hogg: We can provide a comprehensive list of the community youth justice, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal programs, and I will ask the assistant deputy minister to compile that list. I assume that the member's not interested in the contracts, because they would probably require a truck to deliver those. How- ever, we could list the contracts, what area they are in and the amounts of each contract. J. Kwan: Yes, that would be much appreciated. The final question under this

section that I have for the minister — and I'm not sure if I heard the answer ear- lier — is the role for the probation officer, in that the role used to be that the probation officer can recom-

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7793 mend whether or not to go to trial with a particular case. Is this still the same now, under this

section of the act, as before? Hon. G. Hogg: Yes, it remains the same and is cap- tured under subsection (5). T. Christensen: I d i d h a v e a q u e s t i o n o n s u b s e c - tion (5). It certainly reflects that a prosecutor can re- quest that the youth probation officer prepare a re- port, recommending whether or not to proceed with a prosecution, and then the prosecutor presumably makes that ultimate decision. Can the minister com- ment on the accountability in that scenario where…? Obviously, the prosecutor can choose whether or not to accept the recommendation of the youth probation officer.

But is there any opportunity for review of that process for folks that are concerned about it, or is it simply within the prosecutor's discretion, and that's where it's left? Hon. G. Hogg: No, it is the prosecutor's decision with respect to that. They have the final say in that, and there are examples where there might be alternate measures which would be proposed. The victim may be concerned about that and may go to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor would want to include it rather than going to alternate measures. The responsibility and accountability is vested with and remains with the prosecutor ultimately.

T. Christensen: That accountability rests ultimately with the prosecutor, regardless of whether it's a youth probation officer or perhaps an outside agency that is requested to prepare that report? Hon. G. Hogg: That is correct.

Section 6 approved. On

section 7. [1600] K. Stewart: On

section 7(2), it says "Despite subsec- tion (1) (b)…." I'm assuming that in subsection (2), the person is still found guilty, and it says they may "dis- pense with a pre-sentence report if the court is satisfied that the report is not necessary." Let me first clarify with the minister that this is subject to a person first being found guilty and, second, that they may dispense with the pre-sentence report. What would be the ra- tionale behind that, and what are some examples where a pre-sentence report, after a person is found guilty, may not be necessary? Hon. G.

Hogg: Yes, you are correct, if a finding of guilt has already been determined. Two instances or examples where they may not require a pre-sentence report would be if one had been completed in the very recent past or if a youth was already in custody and there was a great deal of information known about them, and they had been convicted of something or a proceeding occurred whilst they were in custody. There would be a great deal of information in place and therefore no further information required with respect to assistance in disposition. K.

Stewart: Just to clarify, the minister is indicating that the information would already be there — so not to duplicate the process. It's not that they would do it in the absence of that information. Hon. G. Hogg: Yes, that's correct. J. Kwan: Under the Young Offenders (British Co- lumbia) Act, there were predisposition reports and dispositions, and in this new Youth Justice Act there are pretrial examinations and reports as well as a pre- s e n t e n c e r e p o r t i n t h i s s e c t i o n .

D o e s t h i s s i g n a l a change in terms of the process, in terms of how one goes about dealing with these issues, or is it just a lan- guage change? Hon. G. Hogg: There is simply a change in termi- nology; no change in proces s. This is to e nsure we re- main consistent with the changes in terminology that have been as a result of the changes in terminology in the federal act. J. Kwan: Is it the same probation officer who would provide the pre-sentence report? Are they the same individuals who would actually do that work — the probation officer who would write the pre-sentence report? Hon. G. Hogg: Yes. J.

Kwan: Am I correct in reading

section 7(2) that if the court gets the consent of the prosecutor and the young person, without necessarily involving the young person's counsel, they can dispense with this report? Why is it the case that the young person's counsel is not necessarily included? One would expect that legal counsel for the young person is pretty important and should be included. Why is it excluded, and how does this compare to the rules under the Young Offenders (British Columbia) Act? Hon. G. Hogg: The wording is the same under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and so it's again to be in concert with that.

There may be some rare instances where a youth would not be represented by counsel, but that would be extremely rare, where that instance may occur. J. Kwan: The language of 7(2): "Despite subsection (1) (b), the court may, with the consent of the prosecu- tor and the young person or his or her counsel, dis- pense with a pre-sentence report if the court is satisfied that the report is not necessary." So the minister is say- ing that one can proceed without counsel, although it's a rare instance. Am I right in understanding that?

7794 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 [1605] Hon. G. Hogg: You are correct that they require the consent of the prosecutor and the young person or the prosecutor and the young person's counsel. Obviously, the young person informs and gives direction to the counsel in these matters, and so the member is correct in that instance.

Section 7 approved. On

section 8. Hon. G. Hogg: I'd like to move an amendment to

section 8 that is on the order paper in the name of the Attorney General. [SECTION 8, in the proposed subsection (2) (e) (

a) by adding "or" at the end of subparagraph (iii), and (

b) by deleting subparagraph (iv).] On the amendment. J. Kwan: I've just found the amendment being re- ferred to by the minister. I wonder, before we pass it so very quickly, if the minister could just advise if there's anything substantive with respect to this amendment. Hon. G. Hogg: No, there's nothing substantive. There is an inconsistency between two paragraphs, and it just corrects that inconsistency. J. Kwan: I'm just reading through the amendment, which says that under

section 8(2)(e), by adding the word "or" at the end of the subparagraph (iii)…. Oh, I see. It just gives an option of sub (iii). I see. Okay, it is not substantive. Amendment approved. On

section 8 as amended. T. Christensen: In respect of the court's ability to impose a fine, which is in subsection (2)(b), does that include any…? My recollection is that the court typi- cally has an ability to impose, essentially, an additional levy that can assist victims, or in some cases a court can impose a restitution order — in property matters, for example. Are those embodied by this act as a whole, or can you find them somewhere else? Are they in any way precluded by this $1,000 limit that's in subsection (b)? Hon. G.

Hogg: This does not deal with victim fines or surcharges, because these are victimless crimes. These are crimes against neither property nor person. The restitution is contained in separate sections. Sec- tion 10 makes reference to restitution provisions. We will soon be getting to that portion. [1610] J. Kwan:

Section 8 establishes tougher penalties, including custody, that the government has trumpeted in presenting Bill 63 to the media and to the public. Can the minister tell this House how many youths were charged over the last three years with specific offences that the government is increasing the penalties for? Hon. G. Hogg: We don't have for the past three years, but I can go to 2001-02 and the Motor Vehicle Act. Driving while prohibited or suspended, there were 146 charges. While driving prohibited, there were six. The School Act, failure to leave school premises after directed by an authorized person, 69.

The Young Offenders (British Columbia) Act, refusing to comply with a disposition order, four — for a total of 225. We have year-to-date in 2002-03, and the year-to- date total is 136. One of those is to contravene protec- tive intervention order, 81 are driving while prohibited or suspended, two are driving while prohibited, one is committing an offence while licence under suspension, and 51 are instances of failure to leave school premises after being directed to do so by an authorized person. That's year-to-date 2002-03, and that goes to October 29 of this fiscal year. J.

Kwan: Does the minister have the stats on how many youths charged with crimes — o r h a v e b e e n charged per the stats the minister provided — are in the care of the ministry? Hon. G. Hogg: If the member's question is with respect to the intervention that was provided and the admissions to custody and probation, then in 2002-03 there were two admissions under the trespass of cor- rectional centre who were placed on probation — one for four months and one for six months. Driving while prohibited, licence, there were 20 admissions.

Eight of those were placed on probation, and 12 received cus- tody — seven days each for the 12 in custody. The pro- bation orders were in lengths from three to 12 months. The year-to-date for breaching a Child, Family and Community Service Act restraining order, there was one person who received a one-year sentence of proba- tion. Trespassing on a school ground, there was one custody for one day. Driving while prohibited, licence suspended, there were two placed on probation — one for three months and one for six months.

There were 13 custody sentences for driving while prohibited or li- cence suspended, each for seven days. J. Kwan: I appreciate the information that the min- ister has provided. What I really meant, though, was in terms of youth charged or have been charged with crimes who are in the care of the Minister of Children and Family Development. That is to say, they're youth under the care of the ministry in that sense but not in a custodial, probation or sentencing sense. Hon. G. Hogg: We do not have that data.

That would have to be searched on an individual name basis to be able to break down these instances of charges to see how many of those were, in fact, children in care.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 7795 J. Kwan: Would the minister have a rough idea, Mr. Chair? [1615] Hon. G. Hogg: The most educated guess, which I have just received, suggests that they would be very minimal and that these are primarily driving offences — driving while prohibited or licence suspended. Be- cause of the propensity of that to occupy these num- bers, the expectation is that there would be very few children in care who would fall into that category. J. Kwan: And that would include the School Act component in terms of suspension as well. Hon. G. Hogg: That is unknown, but it's very likely that it's a very, very small proportion. J. Kwan: Following

section 8, the court must im- pose one or more of a list of sentences, including a fine of $1,000, community service of 240 hours, probation of six months, sentence the youth to 30 days in jail, sen- tence the youth to 90 days in jail, prohibit the youth from driving for two years for a failure-to-stop offence under

section 100 of the Motor Vehicle Act. How many of these sentences can be combined? Hon. G. Hogg: In theory, all could be combined. In practice, that does not happen. In practice, they try to cater a response that appropriately meets the needs of the individual and the offence. If it was a driving pro- hibition, it might typically be some custody with some probation appended to that, rather than trying to look at combinations with respect to the custody orders. J. Kwan: What rationale did the government use in choosing the offences it would apply these tougher penalties to?

What research was done to form the basis for this policy decision? Hon. G. Hogg: The consultation involved an inter- nal review of all provincial statute offences, looking at and consulting with staff at the Solicitor General minis- try, the Attorney General ministry, the Ministry of Education in looking at issues with respect to school trespass and of course, the motor vehicles branch with respect to those instances. The common theme within t h a t w a s a b r e a c h o f a s e n t e n c e o r f a i l u r e t o c o m p l y with some order that was made or some condition that was placed on behaviour.

The sanctions provided and the list developed are being driven by that principle, by a direction being given and a failure to comply with that type of direction. J. Kwan: What rationale did the government use, then, in choosing the offences that would require cus- tody? Hon. G. Hogg: The principles were protection of the public and integrity of the justice system. The of- fences which were most serious under those criteria were the ones that received the strongest sanctions. [1620] J.

Kwan: If you look at the cases the minister cited earlier in terms of those in violation of the Motor Vehi- cle Act and those in violation of the School Act particu- larly, those tend to be the higher numbers even though, relatively speaking, the numbers generally for youth crime are low. None of those cases actually deal with gang activities, it appears to me. If I'm wrong in under- standing that, the minister should correct me, if he will, please.

It appears that none of those offences actually deal with sexual exploitation, which is really the thrust behind this bill that I know the Solicitor General, the Premier and the Attorney General had touted in terms of the tougher penalties that would apply. It's mystify- ing in terms of that. Well, let me just put that question to the minister first, so that I understand correctly in terms of the deci- sion on the penalty and deciding to apply the tougher penalties and choosing the requirement of custody, relative to the actuality of how many of the stats the minister provided hav

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1104pm-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1104pm 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ac16aa58d7c2dc97ff4949bfac94d9ab71231fd8

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