Manitoba Hansard — 12 June 1995 (Sitting 15A, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-15a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No. 15A -1:30 p.m., Monday, June 12,1995

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituency fmi ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NE WMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darr en, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

1291 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 12, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply from Rosenort Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Grant Plett. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Morris (Mr. Pitura). We have a delegation from the Waterhen First Nation located in the constituency of the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of *

(1335) Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to ORAL QUESTION PERIOD report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the financial statements of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. as of March 31, '93 and '94 together with the Auditors' Report ..

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today Dr. Bogdan Trach and Mrs. Lidia Antoniuk, both of Ukraine. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Also in the public gallery, we have twenty-three Grade 6 students from St. Malo School under the direction of Mrs. France Sicotte. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), and thirty-five Grade 9 students Winnipeg Jets Agreement Tabling Request Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Madam Speaker, in 1991, we received a copy of a

summary agreement between the Province of Manitoba, the City of Winnipeg and the Winnipeg Jets hockey team indicating an operating loss agreement. We were told publicly at that time that the operating loss agreement would run about $10 million over the six years of that agreement that the Premier had signed, and it took us about three years later to find out that the government had in its possession projections to show a $43-million loss over that same period oftime.

In light of the fact that we received on Friday a number of summ aries of agreements and proposals that have been made by the province to the present owners of the Winnipeg hockey team, and in light of the fact that we are a shareholder, the public of Manitoba through this Premier's signature is a shareholder to the hockey team, would the Premier today table the full text of the proposed purchase agreement so that all Manitobans can see it and review it as they should? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as part of the

preamble, the member referenced the fact that we said the losses would be about $10 million. They turned out to be $9 million over the life of the

1292 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 agreement, not the 43 that he went around the province saying, very falsely, of course. So it is that kind of misinformation that does not help any debate on issues of this nature. There is, at this point, no agreement that has been agreed to, and so there is nothing to table because ·nothing has been agreed to. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I will get some xeroxed copies of the auditor's report so the Premier can refresh his memory on the $43.5-million loss.

Is the Premier saying today that in light of the fact that we are 18 percent owners of this team at present, we have invested or committed ourselves to $111 million in public investment to a new facility, $37 million of which has been committed by the Premier, that Jules Benson is on the interim board, is the Premier saying that he is just like Barry Shenkarow and has not agreed to this proposal?

Is that what he is saying or could he tell us whether it is yes or no to the proposed purchase agreement, as outlined by Izzy Asper and articulated as a full and embellished agreement of the deal that they had previously with the owners of the team? Mr. Fllmon: Madam Speaker, getting back to the postamble or

preamble to this question, the fact of the matter is that the estimate was $1 0 million, the actual tax expenditure was $9 million, and the member continues to refer to a worst-case scenario which we said was not the basis on which decisions are made. In return for the $9 million that we spent, we received $17 million in direct taxes to the provincial government. That is exactly the scenario, and of course, New Democrats would have had the team out wearing a Minnesota uniform years ago. That is exactly where they have always stood on this issue. That is fine. They can get away with all of the criticism.

They can get away with all of the negativism that they want, but that is why they are on that side of the House. Madam Speaker, the proposal that he is referring to is a proposal between the group called Spirit of Manitoba which is the successor to MEC and Jets 8 Hockey Ventures, which is the majority-ownership group under Mr. Shenkarow. Those are the proposals that are out there which have not been agreed to, and, therefore, at this point, there is nothing to be tabled. Winnipeg Jets/Arena Donations-Tax Deductibility Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): This is why the public is quite concerned.

There are secret negotiations going on between the business community. There are secret taxes that the government has been involved in preparing, and the Premier will not table that in this Legislature and will not even tell us whether it is yes or no in terms of the proposal. No wonder the public does not trust this government in terms of dealing openly and honestly about their money and their investments in their community. I would like to ask the Premier a final question, and I hope he answers the first question about whether it is yes or no.

The Premier has indicated in this House before that he is opposed to a tax-free status for people like Hartley Richardson and others to be considered a charity under the tax act. Has the government now reversed its position with this proposal to purchase the hockey team, which says it is subject to a tax agreement from Revenue Canada on the charitable-status proposal? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, again, we have always indicated that the decision on that particular issue rests with Revenue Canada, and I have not changed my position on the matter. *

(1340) Winnipeg Jets Operating Losses Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I would like to table a document in regard to my question. Madam Speaker, the government has frequently stated that the people of Manitoba will not be subject to any further losses under any circumstances or conditions, and yet

article 4 of the agreement of which - -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1293 I have just tabled the

summary states that: If and when the team is ever sold, the payments for the various partners in the project will include, before any monies are paid out to the province or the city, the repayment of the endowment fund. It will include any liabilities for the Spirit Limited partnership; that is, their losses. It will include any monies contributed to the fund. Will the minister confirm today that the impact of

article 4 is to put the Jets' losses back on the public side of the ledger? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Absolutely not, Madam Speaker, and one other element of any potential agreements that are reached is there will be a separate lease agreement between the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba through whatever entity owns a new entertainment facility if it is built.

That lease arrangement, Madam Speaker, will have a sharing of proceeds based on any disposition, a sharing of proceeds of 50-50 on any disposition for a fixed period of time, which basically puts governments' dollar-for-dollar, coming out equally with the new money that is going in to keep the Jets here in Winnipeg, being the first dollars out, but the government is getting a very direct return before any other distribution to any other equity holders. Mr.

Sale: First of all, is the minister then saying to the House that there are some requirements in this deal which have not been referred to in the deal at all, specifically in regard to some period of time before which the team can be sold? Is there a fixed period of time before which the team can be sold in any paper that you have submitted so far as part of this deal? Mr.

Stefanson: The agreement the member is referring to is one that was tabled late Thursday between the Spirit of Manitoba which is the group of Manitobans, private-sector investors, who want to keep the Jets here in Manitoba, an offer being made to the current owners of the Winnipeg Jets Hockey Club. There will be many other types of agreements. One of the most significant will be a lease agreement between the City of Winnipeg, Province of Manitoba and the new venture that owns the hockey club. That will have a fixed term on a lease. It will have a sharing of disposition on any sale of any hockey team.

It will have a disposition of 50-50 if the venture makes any profits. That will be an agreement that will deal with those kinds of issues. Guaranteed Stay Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): The contempt for the public continues- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Sale: Will the minister tell the House today, what is the government's proposed length of the guaranteed stay of the hockey team should this offer be accepted? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): The proposed term of lease on the new facility is a minimum of 2 0 years, potentially longer.

Having said that, if under a worst-case scenario, if the money that the private sector has raised is all utilized, if the endowment fund is depleted, if for whatever reason expenses cannot be controlled and the operations continue to lose money, there might well be a period earlier than that that it is in the best interests of everybody to dispose of the team. If that happens, as I have already outlined very clearly for this House, any proceeds of disposition would then be split 50-50 with the two levels of government They would get a return of 50 percent of the proceeds.

The other 50 percent of the proceeds would be going to the private sector. Today, we are talking about values for these franchises of $80 million or $90 million or $100 million. So that gives you a sense of the magnitude that would come back to the two levels of government basically as an endowment fund and towards the $111 million that governments would put forward to build a facility. * (1345 )

1294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 First Nations Child Mortality Rate Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, today we are seeing information released from the annual report of the pediatric death review committee of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba Indicating that Status Indian children were two and a half times more likely to die before they turned 14 than the non-native children. Data from Medical Services branch since 1976 indicates that the infant mortality rate amongst the registered Indian population has not changed in almost 20 years. These are real people.

These are human beings we are talking about. Given these statistics, I would like to ask the Minister of Health, if as the Minister of Health of this province, does he feel any sense of responsibility over this situation, and what is he prepared to do in responding to that tragic incidence of death amongst First Nations children? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): The statistic referred to by the honourable member in the report of the Manitoba College of Physicians and Surgeons dealing with infant or child deaths in the province of Manitoba is, indeed, indicative of a larger issue, and is not a new one.

In fact, it is a very old issue in this country of ours and one that I think we have made some beginnings here in Manitoba at addressing by bringing together various departments through our Child and Youth Secretariat and by accepting the bulk of the report on the health of Manitoba's children. There is a lot of work to be done, and this is only one statistic. In every statistic relating to the status or well being of people in Canada, those statistics relating to aboriginal peoples in our country are consistently worse than statistics relating to the rest of the population. I am very, very mindful of that.

The honourable member and I have both been mindful of that for a very long time, and I think with the child health strategy, we may be able to be successful, it is my hope, in bringing various jurisdictions, various orders of government together to attempt to address the problems associated and which lay behind these statistics. Department of Health Aboriginal Health Specialist Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas) : Given that the aboriginal health specialist's position within the Department of Health was just filled in 1993, I would like to ask the minister if he feels that this one single $29,000 resource within a $1 .8-million health budget is sufficient to deal with those conditions within the Manitoba aboriginal population, such as the prevalence of Type II diabetes to be up to 8.7 percent of the Indian population compared to 3 percent for the rest of Manit obans, suicide rates being five times higher, 47 percent of on-reserve housing lacking central heating, higher hospitalization case rates, just to name a few, Madam Speaker.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do not think any one initiative, taken all by itself, will address the enormity of the problem that our nation faces in this regard. My best hope is to attempt to achieve partnership. It is not something I would like to claim the kind of success that I would like to claim, but it is something I and my colleagues are quite prepared to continue to work toward. Aboriginal Health Care Tripartite Agreement Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Is this minister and his government committed to working with other levels of government, specifically the federal, and aboriginal governments like Swampy Cree Tribal Council, to co ordinate a tripartite approach to both address and remedy those horrible conditions? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): We always have been, Madam Speaker, and always will be. The thing that needs to happen is that all levels of government need to come to the table prepared to give and to take, and it cannot be all my way. It cannot be - -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1295 all somebody else's way. We are going to make progress when we decide that women and children in our province come first. *

(1350) Waterhen First Nation Meeting Request Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): My question is for the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. Earlier today, on behalf of a delegation of residents from the Waterhen First Nation, I asked the minister to meet with them following Question Period. Is the minister prepared to review with an open mind the buffalo compound situation at Waterhen? Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): As the member has indicated, he wrote to me earlier in the day and asked ifl would meet with representatives of the delegation that are here today at 2:30.

I am certainly prepared to do that. I am not going to comment one way or another on any specifics of issues they might wish to raise at that particular time. We will have our meeting following Question Period. Mr. Struthers: Would the Minister of Native and Northern Affairs then be willing to release publicly his analysis regarding the situation concerning the buffalo compound at the First Nation at Waterhen? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, one should appreciate that the member, this morning, sent a letter to my office asking for me to meet with the delegation.

He is asking now for specifics and analysis on particular issues. I, quite frankly, am not fully conversant with the matters that are going to be raised. My deputy minister had some discussions today while I was tied up in other meetings. The particular issue that he raises was not one that was flagged with my deputy minister, so, quite frankly, he asks today in Question Period for information that I expect to be raised with me following Question Period. I think it is quite unfair to ask for a comment today on an issue that has not really been flagged other than this morning with me.

I will await our discussions following Question Period. Mr. Struthers: How long then is the minister willing to meet this afternoon with the delegation from the Waterhen First Nation, given that this is not an issue that just came up this morning? It has been in the news and in the media for the better part of the year. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, the member for Dauphin wrote to me this morning requesting a meeting which I am prepared to have. The member did not request a meeting a week or so ago in which I would have had an opportunity to prepare information for issues.

He did not flag issues that he wanted to discuss. I must also indicate that my deputy minister in discussions that he had today in setting up this meeting for this afternoon, the issue that he raises was not one that was flagged. The issues that were flagged for discussion are somewhat different. They may be related; I am not sure. I will have to wait for the meeting.

I would suggest to the member for Dauphin that if he wishes to be effective in trying to advance whatever position with government, he should be more specific and give people an opportunity to come to the table prepared to discuss information because they have had suitable notice to be prepared. The member has not provided that and today in Question Period, possibly to play to the gallery, the member asks these questions. I think there are better ways to be more- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I think the comments of the minister are highly out of order.

If the minister does not have an answer, it would be better if he would sit down and leave it at that rather than make accusations against the member for Dauphin who is doing his job as a member of the Legislature in asking this question.

1296 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson indeed does have a point of order. I would remind all honourable members that answers to questions, according to Beauschene 417, should not be lengthy, should not contain argument or debate and/or provoke debate. Seven Oaks Hospital Funding Reduction Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, two weeks ago in this Chamber we raised with the government the issue of the more than $2 million in cuts at Seven Oaks Hospital. We got the usual government denials.

Today I have in front of me a memo that outlines those cuts. It indicates that those cuts are in fact $2.4 million and will result in a loss of approximately 45 positions at Seven Oaks Hospital. My question to the minister is, what is the government's position on these cuts since they have been imposed on the hospital by this government? *

(1355) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, last November the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) made known to the hospitals, personal care homes and community health centres that the budget for those institutions for this fiscal year would be the same as for last fiscal year, that being $1 .2 billion. Within that appropriation it was made clear that there would be more money made available within that appropriation for personal care facilities and for community health centres. That means the money would come from the acute care sector, which is what health reform is about.

It is about bringing closer to the community, services in the community and making sure that the acute system is able to look after its responsibilities as well. Seven Oaks Hospital is in a similar position to other hospitals, in that it has to make its contribution. We are doing that with the aid of labour adjustment strategies, which we hope will keep the possibility of layoff to an absolute minimum. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is, what is the minister's position since this memo says that these cuts are pending the government's decision as to whether they should go ahead with the cuts? What is the government's position regarding the cuts that they have imposed on Seven Oaks and the potential loss of up to 45 workers at the hospital? Mr. McCrae: Each year there is a process followed, Madam Speaker, between the government and the hospital sector whereby proposals are made to come within certain kinds of targets.

Those proposals are reviewed by health consultants in the Department of Health. Health consultants visit hospitals to ensure that changes do not impact negatively on patient care. That is my bottom line. If any reductions taking place in our hospitals have to happen, we would like to ensure that our labour adjustment strategy is applied to the maximum benefit of the people who work in those institutions. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, the minister has not answered the question. I will ask it a third time.

Will the minister advise this House whether or not-and we would rather have more nurses than consultants-they will reject the recommendations to cut more than 45 positions from the staff at Seven Oaks Hospital who can afford no more cuts? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, that is the same language honourable members opposite might have been using seven years ago. Previous to that, it was not the language they were using as they were closing down beds in Manitoba hospitals. Judicial System Affirmative Action Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

We are all aware that courts are amongst the most important institutions shaping our society. For our -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1297 legal process to achieve just results, it is important that membership of the bench reflect the composition of society. In Manitoba, only one of seven appeal court judges is female. With appointments imminent at both the appellate and the Queen's Bench level, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice what lobbying efforts she has undertaken on this issue. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the member is quite right that our courts do need to be representative of the people of Manitoba, and I am well aware of the issue. The action I have taken is to directly write a letter to my federal colleague the federal Minister of Justice, telling the federal Minister of Justice that we in Manitoba are aware of the appointments being made, and we would ask that full consideration be given to all applicants who will be applying. Mr.

Kowalski: Madam Speaker, what response has the minister given to the letter written to her some time ago by the Gender Issues

Section of the Manitoba Bar Association on this issue? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, certainly, to my knowledge, I have replied to all of those letters, indicating to that Gender Issues

Section that a letter has been forwarded to the federal Minister of Justice on behalf of this issue. *

(1400) Photo Radar Legislation Introduction Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): My last question to the Minister of Justice is, does the minister plan to introduce any legislation to facilitate photo radar for the province of Manitoba? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as this issue falls to our colleague the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), I will take that question as notice on his behalf. Milk Industry Pricing Structure Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, changes made by this government over the past few years to the milk industry have had a negative effect both on the whole industry and on consumers. In light of the fact that we have some of the highest child poverty in the country, and milk is an essential commodity for healthy children, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture how he can justify changes that have been made that will remove the maximum pricing of wholesale and retail milk. Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, members will be aware that we have had for some time a commission that annually reviews the pricing structures of this important commodity in the province of Manitoba. They undertake to examine producers' costs as well as processors' costs and come to a determination, I believe it is on an annual basis, that adjusts upwards or downwards the price of milk.

What has happened in this, the last current round of this annual occurrence was that they determined that the producer input costs had increased only very slightly, but there was quite a dramatic increase in the costs that the processors faced in the containers, basically the paper containers for the production of the milk cartons. That should come as no surprise to any of us. There has been a very marked increase in the costs of all paper products. Those were considered by the commission, and the recommendation was made at that time to establish the prices that the commission announced last Friday. Ms.

Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate, although there are regulated prices that have to go up, why has he allowed the maximum pricing to be removed, and whom did he consult with? Did he consult with the antipoverty groups that have real concerns about the price of milk for consumers? Mr. Enns: I have to correct the honourable member. We did not remove the maximum limits. We removed

1298 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 the maximum limits from certain classifications, but the basic one litre/quart of milk maximums continue on the question. What I am pleased to remind the honourable member and indeed remind all members, it was this government that removed the minimum pricing mechanisms that were in place during the NDP reign of government. There was a period of time that your government refused to allow the price of milk to fall because we insisted on minimum levels. Ms.

Wowchuk: What assurances can this government give to people who live in rural and northern Manitoba who do not have the access to milk that is being sold in competition that the price of milk will not go out of hand, and they will still have the ability to purchase milk for children as an essential commodity and they are not going to have to pay an extremely high price for it? Mr.

Enns: I can assure that we have every intention of maintaining the level of control that currently exists which is, as I said, the maintenance of a maximum ceiling on the most popular, the one quart, the one litre container of milk that is purchased in most cases. Where that has been removed is in some of the higher volume supermarket chains where in fact price competition in many instances keeps the price of milk within the levels that are acceptable to most Manitobans.

But, Madam Speaker, the price of milk in the province of Manitoba relative to any and all other jurisdictions is very comparable, and our consumers are receiving value for their dollar. Public Housing Herbicide Spraying Notification Ms. Marianne CeriUi (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I have a number of concerns about the maintenance policies of this government for public housing. Today, specifically, I want to ask how tenants are to be informed prior to herbicide spraying in public housing. What is this government's policy for notifying tenants in public housing prior to spraying for herbicides? Bon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): I would like to thank the honourable member for Radisson for that question because the use of chemicals and the use of herbicides and pesticides in any type of accommodation is of a highly cautionary note because of the fact of the contagious aspects some people might have to chemicals. The process is to inform the people 24 hours in advance and ask their permission to come into their suites for spraying or any type of fumigation. Ms. CeriUi: Madam Speaker, I do not think we are going to be spraying herbicides- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I would remind the honourable member for Radisson that Beauchesne's 414 says, regarding a supplementary question, it should not require any

preamble and must be asked to obtain clarification of the answer or answers provided by the minister. The honourable member for Radisson, with a supplementary question. Ms. CeriUi: Madam Speaker, I appreciate your indulgence. I would like to clarify for the minister. I am speaking of herbicide sprayed on lawns in public housing developments, and I am wanting to clarify the government's policy of informing the tenants prior to the spraying being conducted. This is a chemical that is harmful to children and to pets.

I want to make sure that the government has a policy, and I would ask that the minister table the notice to inform the tenants prior to spraying. Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, I got carried away with roaches there. I am sorry. I will take that question as notice for the member. Ms.

CeriUi: I would ask that the minister would consider ensuring that notification of tenants would occur during and after spraying since often, as I have had complaints, tenants are concerned that the spraying is begun one week and completed the final week, and there is the chance that children and pets could be on the lawn and be contaminated by hazardous chemicals. Will the minister- - -

June 12,1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1299 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, every effort will be made to inform the tenants of the program and the application of any type ofherbicide in their complex. Urban Planning Government Position Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, Plan Winnipeg, the provincial land-use policies under The Planning Act and the guidelines of sustainable development of the Manitoba Round Table on the Environment and Economy all outline a strong mandate for the province to be involved in municipal planning issues, based on the principles of containment and revitalization.

How does the Minister of Urban Affairs reconcile this leadership mandate for the provincial government with his comments this weekend, and I quote, that growth is determined by demand, the provincial role is to act as a facilitator to provide a forum, and that he is not prepared to undertake any jurisdiction? Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, in the contents of what the member for Wellington has outlined, I disagree in the sense that the direction and the planning will be done on a consultation basis with the City of Winnipeg and surrounding areas, and as a department, the consensus that comes forth is what will be taken. The position of direction and of enforcement and of being heavy-handed in it is not within this department's mandate. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister why he, and by extension his government, has abrogated the leadership, not heavy-handedness, but the leadership responsibility in addressing the difficult and vital planning issues facing not only the City of Winnipeg but also the capital region. Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, what we are looking at with the questioning here is a philosophical difference in direction. This government will do it in consultation with the municipalities around it and will seek consensus not only with the City of Winnipeg but the surrounding municipalities.

On the other hand, members on the other side are looking for direct government intervention, direct control by the government and a direction set up that is on the control end of it. Madam Speaker, we will be in a consultation process with the City of Winnipeg. We will access and facilitate with the surrounding municipalities so there is a direction and an agreement as to plans and the future development in the area *

(1410) Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, in light of his earlier answer that it was consultation, not leadership, how he will respond to the direct requests for leadership brought by the City of Winnipeg and the Town of Selkirk in their responses to the workbook on the Capital Region Strategy, if his words this weekend are an accurate reflection of his government's policy in regard to municipal planning. Mr.

Reimer: I would like to point out to the member for Wellington that the committee meets on the basis of about three times per year in trying to set up a formula of consensus with it. Each member has the ability to bring forth their concerns at that time. There is a discussion. There is a formula and a development that is put into place so that the whole strategy of working together within the city and within the municipalities is approached in a more constructive manner. Taking Charge! Program Implementation Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Family Services likes to talk about programs for single parents on social assistance. Regrettably, there is lots of talk and no action particularly when it comes to the Taking Charge! program which was announced by her and the Honourable Mr. Axworthy in September 1994. They have appointed the board of directors, but none of the 4,000 single parents who are supposed to be taking

1300 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 advantage of this program have been accepted in the program because it is not open yet. Can the minister tell us when she plans to finally get around to opening up Taking Charge! so that single parents can take advantage of this so-called program? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does again give me the opportunity to indicate our government's commitment to single parents and trying to reverse the dependency that has been in place for many, many years for those that are on social allowance. The Taking Charge! board is working very pro actively in the recruitment of an executive director and in location of storefront space so that office can be opened just as soon as possible. Mr.

Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister how single parents can become independent when the program does not exist yet. I would like to know, why is it taking so long? It has been since September '94. Is it going to take a year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honourable friend for that question because this is something new.

It is something that is not happening across the country, and we have ensured that [interjection] I want to assure this House and all Manitobans, Madam Speaker, that, in fact, we have taken our time to put in place a board that has membership from the community, from the business sector and from those who understand the issues surrounding single parents. That is not an easy undertaking, but we have, in fact, a board in place which is very proactive and committed to single parents.

I have every confidence that the program that will be up and running in the very near future will be the best across the country to address the issues for single parents and removing the dependency on our social allowances system. Evaluation Process Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister why in the Order-in Council which was made public, the last page, the page for evaluation, was absolutely blank. Could it be related to the fact that there are no job creation goals in this program? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honourable friend for that question. In fact, there will be an evaluation program. Unlike programs that have been in place for many, many years right across this country, there will have to be measured outcomes, and those measured outcomes will be the determination of how many single parents become independent of our social allowances system, and no longer, Madam Speaker, will there be programs in place in perpetuity where, in fact, a dependency is created.

This will be a program that will develop individual needs assessments for individual women and help them through that path of dependency to independence. Unemployment Insurance Changes Government Action Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) referenced the situation facing many First Nations people earlier today.

Many of the underlying causes are economic, Madam Speaker, and I would like to ask if the government could indicate what its position is to the latest indications from the federal government there will be major cuts to unemployment insurance, cuts that will have a dramatic negative impact on many First Nations communities in northern Manitoba What action will this government be doing in response to those major cuts? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the last time that there were changes to the federal UI, they -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 01 resulted in an offloading of about $4 million or $5 million a year to the provincial government. We have indicated that we are concerned about the impacts of the proposed changes, because in general it means they will have longer periods of time on provincial welfare and therefore greater expense to the provincial government. Regrettably, the federal government has indicated they are not prepared to engage in any discussion or negotiation with us. They will simply inform us after they have decided on what changes to make.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Chiropractic Run and Walk Mr. David Newman (Riel): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement about a charitable event in St. Vital Park yesterday? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Riel have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Newman: Yesterday morning, in St. Vital Park, the Manitoba Chiropractors Association presented its lOth Annual Chiropractic Run and Walk in support of Winnipeg Harvest.

The event is an opportunity for Manitoba chiropractors, supported by their families, patients and friends, to get involved and provide tangible assistance to the less privileged in Winnipeg. Over 1,200 individuals, including seniors, babies in strollers, toddlers in arms and amateur running enthusiasts, including myself: of all ages participated in this event.

The objective of the organizers is to get everyone involved either as volunteers, over 200 yesterday, or as participants, over 350 registered runners and 650 walkers, and to enjoy an event that stresses the importance of health and the opportunity to help those less fortunate than us. Yesterday's biggest winners were Winnipeg Harvest and the families that are supported by Winnipeg Harvest. A preliminary count of the proceeds raised through the pledge walk estimates the donations totalled at least $10,000 with the receipts of the coin collection boxes from each chiropractic office still to be added.

In addition, hundreds of kilograms of baby food were also collected through an innovative food-for-food picnic, which encouraged participants to bring an

article of baby food in exchange for a picnic voucher. Chiropractors throughout the world are celebrating in 1995 the centennial of the founding of their profession by Dr. Daniel David Palmer, a Canadian from Port Perry, Ontario. Sunday's event marked the end of Spinal Health Week in Manitoba. Thank you. *** Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Rossmere have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Toews: I have had the pleasure of declaring June 11 to 17 as Public Service Week in Manitoba. Just to give you a few details, Public Service Week became a reality in 1992 when Bill C-328 was passed in the House of Commons to recognize the value of services provided . by public servants from all jurisdictions. The act designated the third week of June as National Public Service Week- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable ministers that I feel this type of a statement is indeed a ministerial statement and should not be made as a nonpolitical statement. There is precedent for that.

I wonder if I might ask for the co-operation of the honourable Minister of Labour to reintroduce that as a ministerial statement or request leave to do it now.

1302 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Public Service Week Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Labour have leave to make a ministerial statement at this point in the day? [agreed] *

(1420) Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I thank the House. Just continuing on, in Manitoba, there is a steering committee whose members represent all three levels of government, which has organized a number of events which will be held in conjunction with Public Service Week. These events include a blood-donor clinic, seminars and noon-hour information sessions. There will also be public service relay teams and a hospitality booth at the Manitoba Marathon to be held June 18.

I am certain members of this House will join with me in recognizing the value of services provided to Manitobans by public servants of all three levels of government in this province. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the official opposition, I would like to, as well, respond to the ministerial statement dealing with Public Service Week in Canada and certainly join with the Minister of Labour in recognizing the value of the services provided by the public servants throughout this country, not only at the federal level but also provincial public servants and municipal public servants. I think it is important that we stress the two words that reflect the duties that these people perform.

They perform public services, and I think far too often, we, in our communities, forget the essential nature of the public services that these people provide to all citizens in the country. Our public service is what enables us to all be equal in our public hospital system, in our public Legislatures and our public garbage collection. All of the services that the public servants in the country provide for us enables us to be equal as the recipients of those services. We do not have to be able to pay in order to get the services of these public servants.

I would just like to again state that, on this side of the House, we retain our strong commitment and support of the work that these public servants do on behalf of all citizens in this country in increasingly difficult circumstances. I think it is a wonderful thing that the federal government instituted Public Service Week in the country, and I just hope that the rest of the actions of all levels of government carry on with the understanding of the vital role these people serve for all of us. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you please call Bill 3, The Maintenance Enforcement (Various Acts Amendment) Act, for second reading. SECOND READINGS Bill 3-The Maintenance Enforcement (Various Acts Amendment) Act Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 3, The Maintenance Enforcement (Various Acts Amendment) Act;

Loi sur I' execution des ordonnances alirnentaires - modification de diverses lois, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, it is my privilege to present the second reading for this government's maintenance enforcement legislative initiative, which is designed to enhance Manitoba's ability to collect maintenance payments. These measures are quite extensive. In addition to substantial amendments to The Family Maintenance -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1303 Act, we are also introducing corresponding changes to The Personal Investigations Act, The Highway Traffic Act, The Pension Benefits Act, The Garnishment Act and The Parents' Maintenance Act. This government's approach acknowledges that the end of a relationship does not release an individual from their obligation to support their family. In our society today it is unfortuna tely true that families can face a variety of pressures and influences which may result in their breakup.

It has been shown that the disintegration of the family very often has a significant and negative economic impact on children. It is commendable that our system of family law attempts to bring some degree of stability into these situations through the Maintenance Enforcement Program. Many of the payers enrolled in the program do live up to their obligations for child or spousal support and do so co-operatively. However, there remain many other individuals who deliberately seek to avoid or ignore their financial obligations as determined by the courts.

At the present time in Manitoba, 95 percent of the 11,700 orders administered by our Maintenance Enforcement Program involve child support for over 20,000 children. These children rely on the program to protect them and, under present legislation, we are unable to protect all of them adequately. Our responsibility to protect the rights of Manitobans of all ages has resulted in the amendments placed before this House. This government is asking the honourable members of this House to help us reach those individuals who seek to abandon their financial obligations and undermine our court system.

We do not believe it is acceptable to have families and children live in poverty because court-ordered maintenance payments are ignored. These measures should send the strong message that paying maintenance is a payer's first obligation. The best interests of the family demand that these payments be made. These changes will substantially strengthen enforcement efforts, provide invaluable information on the location and assets of delinquent payers and help us get more money into the hands of children and families.

With input from various sources across the province, we have formulated a set of initiatives which focus on insuring the well-being of children and families being served by our maintenance enforcement program. Madam Speaker, the major areas of reform to expand our enforcement power being placed before this House are on reporting delinquent payers to the Credit Bureau. Under this action we are proposing amendments to The Personal Investigations Act and The Family Maintenance Act.

These changes will give the maintenance enforcement program the ability to report persons who fail to pay support payments to the Credit Bureau. Maintenance defaulters will find their credit ratings within the community downgraded or seriously impaired as a result of their actions. Unlike other reporting to the Credit Bureau, the program will not be obligated to disclose the address of the maintenance recipient.

Suspending and refusing driver's licences and vehicle registrations-to further expand the maintenance enforcement program's authority, we are introducing changes to The Highway Traffic Act and The Family Maintenance Act. As an enforcement measure, the program will have the authority to request a delinquent payer's driver's licence and vehicle registration privileges be suspended. We believe this will operate as a serious incentive to pay for many defaulters. Prior to this measure being taken in a case, the program will serve notice on the defaulting payer.

It will indicate that within 30 days of the notice they are required to either meet with the program staff to arrange suitable repayment plans or request a court hearing to set up a repayment schedule. If the defaulter does not address the arrears in an appropriate manner within the 30-day limit, the suspension of his or her driver's licence and the vehicle registration privileges in the province of Manitoba can occur. I would remind the House that in Manitoba, the penalties for driving while suspended are severe and are heavily enforced.

1304 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Under the proposal, the payer can have these privileges suspended if they do not attend a court hearing to set payments or if they default on a repayment plan. After suspension, the payer may still make arran gements with the program to comply with a repayment plan or order, in which case the privileges will be reinstated. If the program is unable to serve the payer with notice then it may request the Department of Highways to refuse to renew the person's driver's licence or vehicle registration. *

(1430) A defaulting payer may not appeal this action to the Licence Suspension Appeal Board. Their recourse is to deal with the arrears through the program or through the courts. The payer can apply for a court order reducing payments, reducing or cancelling arrears, or suspending enforcement if justified in his or her circumstances. Attaching pension benefit credits: Our initiative proposes amendments to The Pension Benefits Act and The Garnishment Act.

These amendments will eliminate some problems relating to garnishment of pension and other payments, where employees can request receipt of these payments on termination of their employment, but they have simply chosen not to make the request. Designated officers will also be given the ability to garnish a payer's pension benefit credits. This action will make Manitoba the only jurisdiction in Canada allowing these credits to be garnished. This is a significant departure from the rule that a person's pension benefit credits are protected from seizure to pay one's debts.

This proposal clearly reflects our view that defaulters should not be able to avoid their obligation to support their families while building up a fund for their own retirement. Other creditors, and even the payer, will have no access to these credits. We recognize that under Manitoba's marital property law, other people, such as a new spouse, can acquire interest in a payer's pension. The amendments will preserve the fixed right of such a person to a division of the payer's credits.

Whereas ofthe date of service ofthe garnishing order a person does not have a fixed right to a division of the payer's credits, the garnishing order will take priority. In that case, the other person will only be entitled to his or her share out of the remaining credits, if any. If a pension plan administrator is served with a garnishing order for pension benefit credits, and they know or suspect that another person has an entitlement to a division, a process is set forth for the court to determine the issue with notice to the spouse and other interested parties.

Attaching jointly held monies: This amendment affects The Garnishment act and will enable the program to garnish monies a payer holds jointly with other persons. This measure will ensure that payers cannot avoid their obligations by placing money in joint bank accounts and therefore out of reach of the program. Under this change, the money will be presumed to be the sole property of the payer. However, the right of bona fide joint holders will be protected.

The payer or other joint holders may ask for a court order determining the payer's actual interest and requiring any excess monies be paid out to the actual owners. The person applying for the court order will be required to prove the payer does not own all of the monies involved. Also, under The Garnishment Act, we are amending sections concerning debts for maintenance payments. Currently, only those garnishing orders against wages remain in force indefinitely, so long as the support order or ·employment continues.

We have proposed that garnishing orders issued for monies other than wages will now remain enforced indefinitely for maintenance debts. This is very important when payers are not paid as employees, or other monies become payable to them after the date the garnishing order is served. The amendments will also make garnishing orders against wages effective the day after service rather than the Monday following service. This applies only to garnishing orders against wages for maintenance debts. Increased penalties. Madam Speaker, our changes also clarify procedures at show cause hearings. We -

June 12 , 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 05 have increased maximum penalties to 90 days in jail from 30 and from $500 up to a $1 ,000-fine for persons found to be in wilful default. The burden will be on the payer to show that he or she is not wilfully in default. Madam Speaker, other a.nlendments included in this Maintenance Enforcement initiative concern The Family Maintenance Act and The Parents' Maintenance Act. These various other amendments conftrm that court orders of support cannot be overridden by support agreements.

The program can require payments be made in specific ways, clarify the duties of a designated offtcer permitting them to ascertain default as well as enforce payments. It will greatly increase the powers for the program to seek information about the payer's financial situation, employment and address as well as the recipient's address. This also means time frames for compliance are set forth. Court orders for compliance may be obtained, and the program cannot be charged a fee for obtaining this information.

It will clarify the deputy registrar's duties to advise the program of information obtained at the hearing attended by the payer. It will state that there is not any limitation period for collecting lump sum support orders. There is presently such a provision in place for periodic payments, and it conftrms that information obtained by the program will be confidential except for enforcement purposes.

Under these and other amendments, although the recipient's views will be considered, orders to repay arrears made by deputy registrars will no longer be reviewed automatically by a judge or a master at the recipient's request. Orders will be reviewed by the program, which will determine if it is necessary to refer it to a judge or a master for redetermination. Hearings which have commenced will be continued before the same judge or master, if an adjournment takes place, to ensure consistency in dealing with defaulters. We have also added justification for adjournm ents.

Appeals from masters' orders will no longer be pursued by holding a completely new hearing, which can be time consuming and costly. Appeals will be based on the transcript and other evidence considered by the master in the same manner appeals from judges' orders are handled. We have made provisions for program immunity for any enforcement action taken in good faith. For any orders under The Parents Maintenance Act, enforcement will be undertaken in the same manner as other support orders. This eliminates the possibility of different or contradictory enforcement schemes.

Madam Speaker, this government is making changes to force those individuals who are defaulting on maintenance and support payments to live up to their obligations. With these amendments we are strengthening the Maintenance Enforcement Program and creating the most effective deterrents for those seeking to evade its reach. These changes will have a direct and very influential impact on defaulting payers. They will experience speciftc consequences for their actions, consequences they will not enjoy in any way.

Madam Speaker, this government is serious about its intention to enhance the program's ability to reach defaulting payers. The seriousness of this intent is reflected in the wide-ranging amendments before this House. We are closing loopholes, adding new avenues of access and increasing our ability to protect Manitobans of all ages relying on the program for support. I wish to assure the honourable members of this House that I will continue to pursue support from my federal counterpart to further maximize our efforts.

Madam Speaker, we are doing everything possible to force individuals who are defaulting on maintenance and support payments to live up to their obligations. Flagrant maintenance default will not be tolerated in Manitoba. We are serious and we are serving notice to payers flaunting the system. With or without their co operation we will hold them to their maintenance obligations. The initiatives before us now will make it even more difficult for identified payers to evade these obligations or place their assets beyond the reach of the maintenance enforcement program.

Our changes will substantially strengthen enforcement efforts, provide invaluable information on the location and the assets of delinquent payers and help us to get more money into the hands of children and families.

1306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Thank you. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. *

(1440) Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing (Mr. Reimer), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism; the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.

McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) INDUSTRY, TRADE and TOURISM Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2.(a)(

l) on page 98 of the Estimates book and on page 25 of the yellow supplement book. Item 2.(a)(

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,490,200. * (1 450) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I would like to start, Mr. Chairperson, by talking about the MUSH sector briefly, a sector we talked about on Friday, and it refers to the question of the agreement on internal trade. The minister and his staff reassured us that their view was that, should the MUSH sector be brought into the provisions of the AIT, that this would not automatically open up national treatment, it would not trigger national treatment under the NAFT A agreement.

I consulted a couple . of trade experts over the weekend, and I will say for the record that they said the same thing, that they agreed with the minister and his staff, but they then went on to qualify what they said very carefully. [inteijection] No, in fact, neither of them were lawyers. The minister said, were they lawyers? No.

The qualification that was shared with me went this way, that you could still use the defense of regional procurement under the NAFTA agreement to keep tendering and procurement in the MUSH sector out of the hands of companies from across North America, but in order to do that you would have to have a very clear and clearly articulated policy that was public and that could be defended in trade tribunals in terms of its purpose as a regional development priority.

So, if, for example, the minister wanted to defend our small health industry sector and treat that as an incubation sector that was being strengthened in order to become globally competitive, as was the Western Flyer bus company in the example I gave last week, the minister would have to have a very clear written policy that could be defended against a challenge from another company, either Canadian or American, that would challenge the need for such a regional development policy or its appropriateness. Does the minister have any comments in response to the input that I gained from a couple of tradespeople? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): It is appreciated, Mr. Chairman, although we do have a considerable amount of time from the time in which these Estimates are being debated because the MUSH sector does not come into effect until July I of next year, 1996. This does not come into effect as when the provinces' agreement -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1307 comes into effect, so we do have some time to further clarify, and if a written policy is needed to protect them, and if, in fact, the government were to do that, there would be ample time in which to do that. Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that answer. I think the particular question that we have is, is it the minister and the government's intention to articulate a regional development procurement strategy for any or all of the four subsectors that are under the MUSH heading? Mr. Downey: At this time, Mr.

Chairman, it was our intention as we entered the free trade agreement, the internal trade agreement, with the other provinces as it related to procurement and provincial gove_rnments, was to have it apply to the MUSH sector basically the same as it applies to the provincial governments. I know there is a need to further discuss with some of the municipalities their concerns as to a cap of the amount of money for contracts which have to be put out to public tender, the efficiency with which they can actually do the contracting.

I know there has been a concern brought forward on the operational side of it There has not been a concern brought forward as to any intrusion of U.S. companies bidding where, in fact, it would impede regional economic development. Again, it is an area where regional economic development can be used for many purposes. One that I would hope would not be used is to circumvent the trade agreement which was entered into with the principles of having the movement of goods, services, people and bidding capabilities for small companies to bid in adjoining jurisdictions.

One of the concerns that also came forward, and it was a question, but I think it helped satisfy some of the minds that were out there as it related to what extent-would the free trade, in fact, as it relates to MUSH, if a municipality opened up, would the agreement allow them to have some form of mix of private and public investment in some of the capital projects that are being carried on their communities, and it is my understanding that the agreement will allow that.

Under a system where municipalities continually only allowed bidding to take place within their own jurisdiction, whether it be engineering or construction firms, then how would it ever open up so they could see other alternative ways of doing it, and making sure maximum efficiencies and opportunities were being applied to their jurisdictions. I think the internal trade agreement, quite frankly, will help. As I said, the objective certainly is to save the taxpayers money, lower costs and I think create greater opportunities for some of the smaller Canadian companies.

Again, specifically as it relates to regional development, I think there is enough consideration, or there has been enough consideration so that it in fact, is workable, to some degree. But again, it is a fine balancing act as to whether or not it is used truly for regional economic development or is it used to circumvent an agreement, which is to allow open and free bidding nationally on major projects. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that thoughtful response. In the main, I do not think I could take exception to it.

Our concern is that large companies, and they do not necessarily have to be American, but they often are, have the pockets to engage in predatory pricing in order to win contracts. Should they then become, in effect, a natural monopoly, which is the sort of thing that happens with laundries, for example-once you build the capital facility and put together the infrastructure to collect and distribute hospital laundry-it is very hard for another company to come in and bid against that existing supplier.

So what I would like to ask the minister is, is · the minister able to tell us what mechanisms are in the department to monitor whether predatory pricing is likely to become or is becoming a problem in any of the sectors where there is not much in the way of a real market for the services?

13 08 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Mr. Downey: Under the internal trade agreement, if that is what you are still referring to, and there is, I understand indication that it is, I would expect that the secretariat as it relates to the operations of the Internal Trade Agreement well could be, if not charged, could be asked if that could be carried out, in a monitoring system within the structure that is established for the provinces and the federal government.

They will be stationed here in Winnipeg, as I indicated the other day, and we are pleased that the internal secretariat will be here in Manitoba Again, that could be a responsibility that they are charged with. Again, that direction would come from a ministerial direction and one which I would take under consideration. Mr. Sale: I wanted to put those concerns on the record because it does appear, at least in the health sector, which is the once I am most familiar with, that there is a substantial drift towards the use of non-Canadian companies to provide some of the bigger services.

They may indeed provide quite efficiently but once they become the monopoly provider then it would be very hard to restrain them in terms of price gouging. I would like to ask some questions about AECL. I gave some notice to the minister of this on Friday. I know some of the issues of AECL may well go to a different department, but I would like to just put on the record that in 1992, August 31, 1992, the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics under its director, Will Falk, undertook an economic impact assessment of the AECL laboratories, and in this, Mr.

Falk noted, among other things, is that AECL has a $54-million wage and salaries budget, that this has a multiplier effect in Manitoba bringing it up to $74 million in wages and salaries, that for every dollar spent by AECL, the direct return to the Manitoba economy is 95.3 cents, that the employment directly at AECL is 1,021 with a further 731 full-time jobs dependent on AECL operations, again a significant multiplier effect.

I am sure the minister probably is looking at the same document that I am now, but the tax impacts on the province are substantial and positive, and the contribution overall to our gross domestic product is substantial and positive. I want to ask first, is the minister and the department in an active relationship with AECL in regard to its future development direction? *

(1500) Mr. Downey: The answer is yes. Mr. Sale: Could the minister describe the nature of that relationship and where he sees it going? Mr. Downey: I was afraid that question was going to come. I did not expect him to accept the yes. Mr. Chairman, let me at the outset for the record state that this government feels very strongly that AECL and all the people who work there in research and part of that community are extremely important to our province and to our overall provincial economy, and they do make a major contribution to our province.

The member is aware, as we are aware, that with less taxpayers' money available to support them, they have had to make some, and are, in fact, making some decisions which will cause change. We have played a role as it relates to Whiteshell Park in a couple of ways. One is that we have funded a technology park feasibility study or have been part of a study.

We have contributed $25,000 to that, and we have had staff, some of the staff sitting here, who have been either part of discussions or been in departments in ongoing dialogue as it relates to the future of the park, and also we have put forward some technology assessment and a targeted market study of some $37,400 as part of the work that they are doing in that regard. So it is really a matter of trying to find future opportunities for AECL as it relates to many areas of activity.

Again, what the main objective is, is to try and find private-sector work, to try and find international work that can be carried out at AECL, and quite frankly, I do not know where else we could find the assembly of some 800-plus highly trained, professional, scientific-type people. I think that is just tremendous. So I think we need to further work aggressively with them to find options and opportunities for them because we do not want to lose -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 09 that base of technology and that cluster of people who, I think, have done some tremendous work. Again, some of the sales of power units that have recently taken place-1 believe they have signed one. The last one that was signed was with South Korea when the Honourable Jake Epp was the minister, and it had some supporting activities for AECL in Manitoba. I also believe it had more of a greater support for Chalk River in Ontario.

One of the other things that we have to appreciate i� that I think Ontario Hydro put forward a considerable amount of support for the work that is being done by AECL, and all I can say is that we-and I cannot tell you about Manitoba Hydro. The minister during his Estimates may be able to talk to you more about Manitoba Hydro's involvement with AECL, but we have had an active part, and I say as a government, we are strongly supportive of making sure that the operation stays viable here in Manitoba. Mr. Sale: I am glad that in a general way, the minister is positive about this.

I think AECL languished under more or less all provincial governments until the federal government began to threaten it with its life and the province began to wake up to the potential of that centre out there as a very concentrated research and development resource, and I do not think most Manitobans, and I certainly would include myself among them, had any understanding of the scope and scale of work that was being done there, and that most of it, in fact, had little to do with atomic energy, per se, and a great deal of it had to do with applications of atomic physics but not the generation of power, although the Slowpoke reactor was developed there.

Does the minister have an understanding of the cuts that have been coming to AECL from the federal level, and has there been any discussion with AECL about how they might survive these cuts? Mr. Downey: I could ask the department maybe for specific information on time frames, but I know they are working towards trying to get themselves more self sufficient and more dependent upon outside sources other than the federal government. I know they are moving and working as aggressively as possible.

I do not honestly know if there has been a time limit or a further indication as it relates to what federal funding will do to them. I think the one thing that they have been informed about, and one that I have a feeling about, is that there is not going to be any additional federal funding that will go to them, that they have to, in fact, get out and aggressively market themselves as a research base and service. I guess that is the-the member has not commented on it. One of the things that I see and that is the most recent development that I can report on a positive note was the sale of the.

Slowpoke reactor to South Korea which added some stability, I think, to some of the jobs that were there, and maybe added a few. Other initiatives that are being carried out, other than reduction of support by the federal government, I cannot report on. I will make a commitment to the member, if there is any intelligence internally within the Department ofi,T and T as what the future plans of the federal government has as it relates to the Whiteshell AECL operation, then I will report that to the member. Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that.

Just for the record, I do not believe that it is a Slowpoke reactor that was sold to Korea. I think it was the standard heavy water design that was sold. I think they have had difficulty placing Slowpokes anywhere. It was on the market and now I think it is off the market again. Mr. Downey: It was the Candu reactor which they sold. Mr. Sale: I want to then move into the area which I know largely impacts on the Minister of Environment, but from an industry, trade and development of jobs perspective it certainly is also of interest to this department.

I suspect there must be some interdepartmental group that either has been or will soon be struck to deal with this. AECL filed, I believe it was in the early part of the winter but it might have been late last fall, documentation for an environmental impact study

13IO LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I2, I9 95 coming from more than I 0 years of exhaustive study of the question of the safe storage of nuclear wastes. I am aware of this work because I canoe through the experimental lakes area frequently with my wife. Those lakes are dotted with monitoring devices to monitor the release of gases and the rate at which those gases are released through the Canadian Shield country. The environmental impact documentation is about three feet high, and I think only insomniacs would try to read through it. Nevertheless, the hearings will be held this fall.

I would like to have a sense from the minister as to the government's general direction in responding, in participating in or appearing at these hearings, and, secondly, how broad public policy might be framed in terms of the siting in Manitoba of a large, hopefully safe, storage of nuclear waste, if indeed that is not an oxymoron. Mr.

Downey: The specifics as it relates to the environmental hearings and any activity that would be carried out there, I think would be more appropriately asked to the Department of Environment because they are the agency and the department which will be the ones that are more directly involved. * (15IO ) Mr. Sale: I understand from an environmental perspective that is true, but I think there is the potential for in excess of I 000 full-time high-skilled construction jobs over quite a long period of time.

It is not like a hydro dam that would be built over a short number of yea rs, but an extensive amount of excavation over a long period of time, then the question of encasing, entombing, backfilling, monitoring and guarding. This is not a short-term project. My understanding is that their time line goes to 2030. I do not imagine my time line goes to 2030, but that is the kind of thing we are looking at. So could the minister comment on the whole question of government response to the storage, safe or otherwise? What is the government's position going to be on this? Mr.

Downey: I guess I could answer the question with a question. Is the member advocating that we go out and aggressively promote and try to make sure that we have that capability here in the province of Manitoba? Is that the intent of which I am to take the question? Mr. Sale: No. I will be very frank with the member.

My own view is that nuclear waste and nuclear power, while they have been, in Canada's case, more or less safe, there are abundant indications from around the world, from Windscale in England, from Chernobyl, from Three Mile Island, from the Fermi plant, and, in fact, if the minister has ever toured Chalk River, he will know there is an entombed plant there, too, which most Canadians do not know about. It is a small reactor from the early I9 50s, but there was a major spill and they did what Chernobyl did; they tombed it up with concrete.

I do not view nuclear power in the same benign way that the promotion suggests in Ontario, but I am conscious that we have benefited from their nuclear power and that their economy has contributed to our economy, and we have got a problem in this country with the safe storage of high-level wastes. I do not have an answer to that but-I am speaking personally, not for my party-I am not de facto opposed to it. I would rather, in fact, have it stored safely in a secure setting than stored where it is now. We have got the bloody stuff; we have got to do something with it.

I think that is quite a separate issue from the question whether we promote further use of nuclear power. I think it is going to be a very tough public debate. I am wondering how the minister and his government are planning to handle that debate and whether they have any overall strategy to deal with it, because it is a lot of jobs, it is a lot of money, it is a lot of time and there is risk involved. We have not generally had a good record in dealing with that kind of complex issue at a government level. It has generally deteriorated into a lot of name calling and factionalism.

We are going to have to face this sometime. Mr. Downey: I did not intend to get into a philosophical debate on the storage of nuclear waste, but I guess I could enter into a little bit of a dialogue on it. I first of all believe that we in Manitoba, with our hydroelectric power, as low cost as it is and as -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 11 available as it is, we, as far as using it for the production of electricity, I do not believe will be faced with the problem of production of it, of nuclear waste through that system for many, many years, if ever. My preference is to continue to develop the Manitoba hydroelectric system with the use of water power and that is the first position.

As far as the safe storage of it is concerned, again, I would look to people who are professionals in the field as it relates to that, I would look to people like the professionals at AECL and would not try to second guess them, because I certainly have a limited knowledge. I do not know of any direct-and again the member is being, I think, very open and fai_r, saying that it does create and could create tremendous numbers of jobs and economic activity.

Again, one has to bring into balance at what cost, and I think at this particular point the people of Manitoba would be somewhat apprehensive as it relates to entering into a proposal that would in fact have it stored in Manitoba. We are not the producers of any large quantities of it, if any, that I am aware of, and so to invite it into your backyard, it would take some long term public debate and a clear understanding of whether or not we could see an advantage as it relates to the jobs. My suspicion at this point would be they would not be comfortable in having it brought in.

However, there would be a process, and I say there are people at AECL, there are professionals in this field, and there is a process through the environmental department and environmental hearing stages that could be carried out. At this particular point I can see nothing more at this particular debate or time to say that, if brought forward by AECL and all the security was put in place to further open the public dialogue and debate on it, that is what would happen.

As far as being out actively promoting it, we are not, and, again, appreciating the position that the member comes forward, when I am sitting here as a cabinet minister I cannot say that I am sitting here as a private individual speaking for this private individual. I am here as a cabinet minister, and I have to speak for the department.

Having said that, at this particular point, I think further clarification as to the handling of any move in that direction would certainly come under the purview of the Department of Environment, and you could further dialogue during those Estimates as it relates to their position. Mr. Sale: As the minister knows, I may well be in trouble with my own party for stating a personal view on the issue, be that as it may. Mr. Downey: If you are asking for def ence, I cannot promise it. Mr. Sale: No, I will defend myself, I think.

What l-and I will not push this past this statement what I am suggesting to the minister is that this is not an environmental impact process or hearing like many others. This is one that has very large risks and benefits associated with it on both sides, and I would hope that the government would think about some perhaps more constructive ways of handling the process than simply doing the linear by-the-book environmental impact process.

I would think, for example, that all of us on both sides of the House might be well served by having extensive, adequate briefings on the issues at stake, that we would all benefit from some leadership from the government to try and avoid the issue becoming hysterically polarized before it starts. So I am raising a concern that I think this is not like a lot of the ones we do. This is not small potatoes, and it touches people at a nerve end. People are afraid of the potential.

I do not have an answer for it, but I think from a public policy point of view the management of it calls out for something more than just the ordinary process. Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, the first thing the member would have to consider is repealing his former Premier's legislation making Manitoba a nuclear-free province then. That would be the first thing he would have to go against, would be his former Premier's legislation. Mr. Sale: I think when that legislation was passed AECL was even more involved in nuclear power than

1312 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 it is now. So, we did not have much problem with that, and that, as the member knows, was not the point of the legislation. We can move on to a couple of other questions in this area. On page 24 of the additional information book the proposal to develop-if I can find the quote here-it is in the third line of Trade and Global Markets. An additional $500,000 budgetary authority is allowing Manitoba Trade to establish a single, highly visible export identity for Manitoba.

I think we talked earlier about that being the rationale for the Manitoba Trading Corporation being activated to a higher extent and being funded to a significantly higher extent than it has in previous years. Could the minister indicate what the current plans are for doing this? In structural and departmental terms, what are you going to do to achieve this goal? * (1 520) Mr.

Downey: First of all, one should determine the need for doing it, and I think as we see a more global market opening up to Manitoba has been demonstrated the need for an additional support mechanism that would help carry out trade activities as it relates to particularly some of the smaller companies that do not have the resources and/or the current technical capabilities of reaching into some of the market opportunities that are out there.

Whether they are under NAFT A or whether they are into the Asian markets or wherever, the government felt there was need for the imple mentation of a trading corporation that would be of some assistance. So that is the thought behind it in that regard, as well as the adding to it of some additional people whom we believe would have, under a restructured way, knowledge that would further enhance and support individuals in that whole arena. So that is the thinking behind it. It is basically part of a commitment to Manitobans as it relates to trade out of Manitoba.

I think there are not many days go by that we either are not contacted by or in discussion with either people from outside of Canada looking to strike up some form of trade relationship or smaller companies, particularly within Canada and within Manitoba, looking for some form of structured support to give them as it relates to market activities outside of the province. Again, as we have said many times, Manitoba depends very heavily on trade.

Eighty percent of our trade, I believe, our product is basically traded outside of the province in other provinces and the trade percentage that goes into other jurisdicti ons. I do not have the numbers on it, but it is, it is our survival, if we do not have effective trading activity. So that is the thinking behind it and that is what we are proceeding to do. Mr. Sale: Could the minister indicate, my understanding is that MTC is a corporation, established as a Crown corporation. Is that correct? Mr. Downey: That is correct. Mr.

Sale: Who are the other board members of MTC at the present time other than, I think it is your-is it the assistant deputy or the deputy? It is Mr. Kupfer, assistant deputy. Mr. Downey: Currently, the membership is made up of Stephen Kupf er, Rod Sprange and Mike Bessey and with Mike Bessey leaving the employ of government, there will be another individual put in place of Mr. Bessey. Mr. Sale: I hope Mr. Bessey finds Harvard a good place to be. So it is a corporation then, and it does have a board of three people. Could the minister explain what the functional relationship will be between Mr.

Kupfer and his corporation, in effect, as the officer of a Crown corporation, and the various managing partners that are in the various divisions currently in the department? It looks to me like we are putting MTC in that line now and that the intention is to manage the trade operations through this corporation's activities rather like a Crown corp within the department. Can you comment on that? Mr. Downey: We are sti ll, Mr. Chairman-as the member knows, the amendments to the act are before the legislature. I believe it will be used as a supportive -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1313 tool for any managing partner that sees need to use the instrument to enhance activities as it relates to trade. That is basically it. It is another tool within the department to enhance the objectives of trade activities which, of course, at the end of the day return economic benefits to the province and job opportunities for those people who are in the export business. Mr. Sale: Could the minister just explain the footnote on page 25 of the supplementary information?

The appropriation of $8 12,000 represents a $500,000 increase for a new trade and investment promotion initiative less a $200,000 nonrecurring amount for MTC. Mr. Downey: The nonrecurring amount was basically in there for the Arctic Bridge work that was done. Mr. Sale: I am sorry to admit my ignorance, but I do not know what the Arctic Bridge is. Mr. Downey: The Arctic Bridge was an agreement that was struck, and work was done to enhance trade activity between the Port of Churchill and Murmansk.

There was a study carried out and some work done, and, basically, it was to enhance trade between those two jurisdictions. These were the resources that were made available for that purpose. Mr. Sale: Just so that I can understand this MTC role more clearly-and I am not being critical of it. I am just wanting to understand it. What it sounds like the minister is saying is that there will be a corporate identity called Manitoba Trading Corporation, which any of the partners, the directors of the various groups, could use in terms of flowing agreements, reaching agreements with potential clients, new companies.

It would be the vehicle that from a corporate and legal point of view, a new industry might interface with in working with the department. Am I understanding that correctly? Mr. Downey: That is a fairly accurate assessment. Mr. Sale: As I have said, I do not have any problem with this. It does seem to me that you are moving, perhaps in a deliberate and appropriate way, to a special operating authority or a special operating entity. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but are you going to make plans and lay them out, or is it just going to kind of become an SOE de facto? Mr.

Downey: In the initial stages of it, it was seen to be able to satisfy a need as it related to trade, enhancing trade and trade opportunities for Manitoba companies. It will be, I would say at this stage, relatively flexible in how it participates to ineet that objective, because there are any number of situations which we are faced with as it relates to companies trying to embark upon international or trade outside of this province. We needed this capability to work and work with them and support them.

The member indicates that it could flow to an automatic special operating agency, if that is what he is referring to. If that were seen to be advantageous as the entity unfolds, then, as he has indicated, he does not have any problem with it, and I would not see where I would have any problem with it if it moved in that direction. The point is, we do not have an effective mechanism today. We are trying to put one in place. Mr. Sale: I think that is good. I did not say that I had no problems. I said that I did not have any problems in principle with it, and I do not.

My concern would be that this is a vital area of government and SOEs tend to move beyond the scrutiny of Estimates, and to a certain extent they become line entries instead of detailed entries, and I would not want this area to move beyond the kind of scrutiny that I think it should get. I do not have an in principle problem with SOEs. I think it is a question of how they are used. The regional representatives of Manitoba list Hong Kong, U.K., Japan and other locations. Could we have a list of the regional representatives with their locations, salaries and expenses for those? Mr. Downey: Yes.

1314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Mr. Sale: Could the minister just expand a bit in terms of their sense of the current cost benefit of these regional reps? Some have been open, some have been closed from time to time as the perception of the utility has gone. I think one was closed in The Netherlands, if I am not mistaken. * (1 530) Mr. Downey: Basically, I can give him the names. We have Richard Walker in Hong Kong who is under contract to carry out services for the province but is not prohibited from carrying out some additional work on his own activity.

There is no office provided in that situation. We have Mr. Watson Laing who is in the U.K. [interjection] Yes, actually living in Windsor Castle, a touch of royalty there. Goes right to the top. [interjection] No, he did not live in the part that burned. That is under contract. And we have a lesser contract but a very important one with a person by the name of Anne McDonald in Tokyo carrying out some activities as it relates to the province. She is an expatriate Manitoban and a very highly qualified person as are the other individuals representing and working on behalf of the Province of Manitoba.

We, unlike other provinces, have not gone out to the expense that some other provinces have in foreign service. Rightly or wrongly, we have not. Other governments previous to us have not. We believe there is an important role to play. However, we also know that the federal government have representation in those areas and we depend heavily on the federal government representatives, and, in a lot of cases, have worked very closely with the department to make sure that we have adequate and proper representation in those foreign markets.

I am not able to, at this particular time, disclose in detail some of the benefits that we are seeing, but I know we have seen some very positive activities flow from those contracts, and one that, without disclosing something that is not able to be disclosed, there will be one announcement that will be coming shortly that will have fairly significant impact on future trade activities for Manitoba I will be announcing that when it is appropriate. There are other processes that have to be gone through. (Mr. Frank Pitura, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) I think we are getting value for our money.

It is an important role for people to be in, and I could elaborate, as I say, on some of the individuals but I do not think that is necessary. We are, I think, carrying out the most efficient of any province in the country as it relates to having representation in other jurisdictions. Mr. Sale: I wonder if the minster has a sense of the trade with each of these regions that is influenced by these three people iin terms of some kind of time series. How are we doing over time with these regions?

I picked some dates, but I do not have any particular reason for them, 1991 to '94 or '95, or some convenient period of time. Do we have a sense of trade with the regions and whether we are getting better or are we getting worse? Mr. Downey: I ant prepared to provide the trade numbers over certain periods of time. We have that with those jurisdictions. One area that probably I could just further elaborate on, that we are seeing some growth in, of course, is the tourism industry.

One ofthe objectives of employing an individual in Tokyo, there are major moves between the Government of Canada to encourage a greater amount of Japanese-Canadian trade activity, tourism activity. This individual is very active as it relates to the proper connections in Tokyo. We look for some greater results there as it ties in with the Japanese tourism industry. Again, the U.K. is the same thing. We have a major aerospace sector, which has very close linkages with the U.K.

Bristol, of course, being owned by a U.K. company and a lot of work activity, we want to make sure we have proper and appropriate contacts with those jurisdictions. So those are basically some additional comments. -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1315 Mr. Sale: I have one more question in this area, Mr. Chairperson, and we can pass this subappropriati on. I apologize for my voice today. I woke up in the middle of the night with very little of it. It sounds strange to me; I do not know how it sounds to you. Dow Corning had a pilot project in Selkirk which, I believe, has been terminated. There is another company looking at Selkirk whose name, I think, is Saskatchewan Heavy Industries. I am not absolutely sure that that is the legal name of the company in Manitoba.

Could the minister provide us with some information about both of those initiatives, why they are either going forward or did not go forward and whether substantial provincial funds were committed, in any case? Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I will comment on the Saskatchewan Heavy Industries proposal that was being proposed for Selkirk. There was a proposal that came forward by a group of individuals that had requested provincial government support. We stated, I think it was, 16 points which we would expect them to accomplish.

One of them was to raise some $28 million of an equity investor or investment capital and 15 other conditions which had to be met. To this date, I am not aware of the fact that they have come back and have met those conditions, and so we are still in that pattern, unless the department has something further to add. I understand there have been some changes, Mr. Chairman. They have changed their legal name to Tayco- Mr. Sale: Could you spell that? Mr. Downey: T-A-Y-C-0. Maybe I am wrong on the numbers of conditions. I know it was originally 16 conditions.

It may even be more than that, but apparently they have met the condition of which No. I is. They had to raise some $200,000 to do a feasibility study to go out and raise equity capital, raise the 20- some mill ions of dollars that needed to be raised to carry on with the project. That they have accomplished to this date, that they have raised the $200,000, and they are out now in fact soliciting the additional capital needed for the project. Mr. Sale: Could the minister just indicate whether he has any sense, or his officials have any sense, of the time line on this proposal that has been made?

Presumably, it is manufacturing mining industry machinery, and our mining industry is undergoing somewhat of a boom. What is the timing on this? Mr. Downey: Again, Mr. Chairman, it is not for me to put time frames on when it is out in somebody else's area of doing the work that has to be done. There is a possibility within months that there could be some showing of some �sitive results, but again it is not for me to say. I am not the one that is carrying out the work activity.

We would hope that it gets carried out positively, but again there are certain conditions and one of them is to raise a substantial amount of capital . * (1 540) Mr. Sale: Could the minister comment on the Dow Corning proposal?-and this may again be that I have just not found the references. Did it fail because of a technology question, a marketing question? What was the reason for their winding up? Mr. Downey: I think I would not say that it failed. I would say we have seen a substantial investment by Dow Corning.

We have seen a considerable amount of money both put forward by the provincial government and by WDO to support a new technology as it related to the processing of silicon metals and the development of that product. So I do not consider it a failure. There have been quite a few jobs in the interim period during the testing process that were created. It is my understanding that it did not meet some of the technical and economic benchmarks that were put forward that would warrant commercial ization of the technology at this parti cular time .

So rather than advance and go to a greater plant, which would have been the desirab le decision for us, that was not able to be done, and it was the people who were carrying out the project activ ities, that being Dow Corning, that made that decision.

1316 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 They-as Dow Corning have a considerable amount of resources in it, as do we, as do the federal WDO office have considerable resources in it-are looking for an alternative use for the enclosed arc furnace process that is in East Selkirk. Again, we believe that there could be some additional or some new opportunities found for that furnace, and, hopefully, that happens sooner rather than later.

But, at this point, we do not consider it a major loss because it has created a considerable amount of employment, and there is major capital invested in that facility that is potentially usable. Mr. Sale: I did not mean to use the term pejoratively -failure in the sense that it failed to go ahead, not in the sense that anybody is to blame for it I know very little about this area, but what I have read suggested that it was sort of leading-edge technology and pushing the technology to new applications.

Is there any residual benefit to the province, having been a major partner in the proving of this technology, or does Dow Corning own it entirely and has, in effect -w ell, one might say, they have used public sector research grants to forward their own technical capacity, but we have no further stake in that. Mr. Downey: The benefits to Manitoba, as I have indicated, is we have a considerable investment from Dow Corning in a plant in Manitoba that has created considerable numbers of jobs. The ongoing use ofthe plant, we would hope we could find some company that would be, in fact, encouraged to use it.

I believe that Dow have something in the neighbourhood of $30 million invested in the plant. Manitoba's contribution, I believe, is $6.6 million, and Western Diversification is in basically for the same amount. The point I want to make is that there is a considerable amount of capital investment. It has created some employment. We would hope that on a sale of this particular plant to any other individuals-we know that we would participate in a percentage of the sale proceeds. Mr. Sale: I think the minister partly answered my next question, and that was the question of equity in the plant.

Do we have equity in the plant roughly in proportion to our investment? Is that the deal? Mr. Downey: I do not believe it is considered as equity. We would get a percentage of any revenues that were generated from the plant in operation of it in a commercialized way, or if it were to be sold, we would recapture some of our money, if not all of it, through the proceeds of the plant to the number of, 20 percent of the sale proceeds would come to the province. Mr.

Sale: Again, this is because I am new in the portfolio, so I do not know, Dow Corning still owns the plant then and is looking for an opportunity to use it but not within their own company. They are looking for someone to come in and either lease it or buy it. Mr. Downey: That is correct. Mr. Sale: I think we can pass this particular section, 10.2, 2.(a)(1). The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): 2.(

a) Industry Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,490,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 ,473,800 -p ass. 2.(a)

(3) Grants $1 52,800. Mr. Sale: Whoa, whoa I am having difficulty finding the numbers you are quoting, Mr. Chairperson. The first one was $1 ,490,200. The next ones? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): $1 ,473,800. An Honourable Member: Where am I finding that? I am sorry, Mr. Chairperson. I just did not want to pass too little money for the department to operate on. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): 2.(a)

(3) Grants $15 2,800-pass. 2.(

b) Financial Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Sale: I just have a few questions in here. One is on the Manitoba Industrial Recruitment Initiative, -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 131 7 MIRI. I tried to make sense of the difference between MIRls and MIOPs. For the life of me I cannot make a distinction between the two and perhaps it is obvious and I am missing it. Could the minister comment? Mr. Downey: Basically, the difference is the MIRI program is one which allows the government, through negotiation, to provide a loan which would be written off totally, the loan and interest. MIOP is basically a repayable loan with the ability to forgive some of the interest in return for job creation.

The reason for the difference is that, initially, with some of the new activities that are taking place with new technologies, under MIRI there would not be necessarily any plant or product to take security on, so it gave the ability for the write-off of loan and, basically, the province would not be in as secure a position as they would be through a MIOP program. Mr. Sale: Thank you for the explanation. Just an observation, and nothing more than that. From the point of view of transparency to users, it is not always helpful to have that kind of fine detail broken down.

It would be better for the department to know what it is rather than the public to have to try to make the distinction. I am sure that is what happens. I find all of those things confusing. Inside people understand them and it is not confusing to them, but to the public, they have a hard time making the distinction, just an observation. * (1 550) Can I ask about the preferred provider program? There are a number of sectors, I particularly know of the health sector, where companies can become preferred providers by doing some things. Sometimes it is by donating some equipment.

Sometimes it is by agreeing to put materials up for test. Does this program have anything to do at all with this department? Mr. Downey: Not that I am aware of. Mr. Sale: Again, I guess I would ask, why not, because it sounds very similar to some of the things that you would be doing. I think it is a Health department program. It just seems strange to have little pieces of programs that have to do with procurement and supporting companies to supply Manitoba in different departments, especially in a sector as huge as Health. I will just make that observation, I guess.

A question about Carte International-last year Mr. Storie asked a number of questions about Carte. I believe the Hansar d discussion showed that Mr. Storie's view was that most of the jobs that were to be created were in fact transferred from Winnipeg so that there was not much net new job creation but in fact simply a relocation. That was at least the gist of the questioning in Hansard. Could the minister comment on the status of Carte and the targets? Mr. Downey: Yes, the proper pronunciation is Cartay. Mr. Sale: Carte. C-A-R-T-E? Mr.

Downey: Yes, it is a transformer business where they build hydroelectric transformers. In some cases, not in all cases, there is not necessarily a stipulation of a ma jor job increase, although I believe there was in the initial stages. It maybe has adjusted downward. But in some cases it is also looked upon as the main tenance of jobs are also important, and I guess it was the company's decision that a move to a different location and the decisions that were made gave it the kind of stability it needed to maintain the jobs, and that is really probably the basis for which it was made.

I really cannot indicate any further than that. Mr. Sale: Well, I apologize to the company for not knowing it was Carte. We will put an accent on it, and we will make it Carte. I think Mr.

Storie's concern, and it would be mine, too, was that the loan ·was premised on public perception that this was a job increase rather than a job protection situation, that the government used the loan that it made to the company in promoting its job creation activities and did not make it clear that that was not the case with Carte, but that in fact you may well have been doing a useful thing, but you were not creating new jobs. You were relocating a plant. Mr. Downey: No comment.

1318 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Mr. Sale: Could the minister give us a status report of the loans that are currently out under these various programs that would be to places like Medix, MacLeod Stedman, Carte and any others that are current in terms of the loans that were given, terms and the jobs that were to be either saved or created? Mr. Downey: Was that not in that list of material that I gave the member? Mr. Sale: This is MIOP. Oh, I am sorry, MIRI is down at the bottom. Thank you. I withdraw. Thank you. I did not see MIRI.

Okay, on page 14 of the annual report of the department of 1993-94, I presume it is, there is a ref erence to a directory of some I ,800 firms representing Manitoba's industrial capacity. Could the minister describe how that directory is maintained, how it is made available, etcetera? Mr. Downey: Yes, the question I believe was, how is the database maintained or how is it developed and maintained. Is that-do I understand the question correctly? Mr. Sale: Yes, Mr. Minister. Mr. Downey: Basically it is within the Research department of our department.

There is a process that the individuals who work fo r the department carry out in making sure that they through direct contact and/or other inf ormational systems that are available, they make sure it is fe d into the Research department. I am not sure whether there is additional inf ormation that I can provide as to how it is done specifically, but if there is I will provide that to the member. Mr. Sale: My concern is that this is obviously a very useful tool. Has consideration been given to making it available on interactive video, on diskette, on the Internet, on any of the business bulletin boards?

Can you key-word search it? What is the capacity of this tool to be user-friendly in effect? Mr. Downey: It is available on diskette at this particular time. Again, I think the department are pretty aware of the valuableness of it and will make it available in as broad a way as possible so that it can be used as a resource base fo r business. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, can it be key-word searched? Is the diskette free? Can we have a little more inf ormation about the nature of this, and if it is in that kind of frame may we have a copy of the diskette? Mr. Downey: Yes, there is a charge of $25 fo r each diskette.

So we will see that you get the proper application fo rm fo r it. No, the member makes a good point. I am assured by the department that it is available through a broad range of mechanisms, and if it is not to the satisf action of the member I am sure that he can let me know. I will give him a more specific answer as to all the systems and the process that is available. Mr. Sale: I recall when I was watching-! very rarely watch TV-but I was watching TV one night, when the Canadian consul general in Seattle happened to hit the news. Maybe the staff might recall that particular story.

He had put up a bulletin board page on the Internet with inf ormation about the characteristics of companies and individuals that Canada was looking fo r within the area that was his particular concern, which I think was B.C. It might have been B.C. and Alberta. He was getting very fas cinating responses because precisely the kind of people that he was looking fo r are the kind of people who will look on bulletin boards on Internet because they are proactive people and they understand how this technology works. So I am not being critical.

I am simply asking whether the department has thought of ways of aggressively marketing this, not waiting fo r requests but pushing out there and making sure that it is as user-friendly as possible. I ask then a further question on this. Has the minister considered placing this resource in Manitoba's public libraries or other commercial libraries such as Chambers of Commerce or other locations? Has that been considered? Mr. Downey: Again, I would have to check with the department as to whatall areas have now, and what

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1319 technology is used to make sure it is properly distributed and what are some of the potential ways to make it further available to the public. * (1 600) Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, a procedural point, would the committee consider a five-minute break? An Honourable Member: Sure, no problem. An Honourable Member: Take an hour if you like. Mr. Sale: No, I am learning too much; I cannot aff ord to take an hour. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): Order. Is it the will of the committee to take a five-minute recess? An Honourable Member: And leave the clock running.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): And leave the clock running. [agreed] The committee recessed at 4:02p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 4:07p .m. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Pitura): I call this Committee of Supply back to order. We are on item 2.(b)(l). Mr. Sale: Going to this list that the minister supplied ofMIOP and MIRI statistics, the last column is headed Jobs Created and To Be Created, but there is no distinction between targets and actual. Does the minister have the data that separates target from actual here? Mr. Downey: Yes, there is an audit done each year.

I have not got it right here, specifically, although it might be on the bottom. In most cases, I say this in most, not absolutely all of them, but in most cases, particularly under the MIOP program they have, fo r all programs, basically exceeded the target which they have to create and in some cases substantially passed the targets. I will try to identify fo r the member which ones may not have reached the target, but they are very fe w. I will attempt to try and get that inf ormation. Mr. Sale: I thank the minister fo r that.

In the case of Boeing Canada, my understanding is that, unless there is another loan that I am not aware of, this was not new jobs but this was a saving, a retaining or a protecting strategy. Is that i11correct? Mr. Downey: I am told by the department that it was fo r the creation of new jobs, and they actually created substantially more than what the target was. Mr. Sale: Then I think, Mr. Chairperson, I must be recalling a diff erent program from Boeing that was made at a different time that was intended to protect some jobs which subsequently were lost when the industry turned downwards.

The heading Unannounced MIOPs at the bottom of this list, could the minister tell us what an unannounced MIOP is? * (1610 ) Mr. Downey: Basically, it is an unann ounced MIOP. I am not trying to be smart. That is exactly what it is. It is a MIOP program that has been approved by government but has not been officially announced publicly. It is in concert with the company as to when, in fa ct, that announcement is made. These will be made as it relates to the ones that are approved and will proceed as soon as possible. I certainly do not want to hold up good news, Mr. Chairman.

I will be advancing them as quickly as I can. Mr. Sale: I guess the government House leader is going to convey this inf ormation to the minister. I was just going to say at ten o'clock, we will finish- maybe.

13 20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 12, 1995 Well, this will depend on, of course, the member fo r St. Bonif ace's (Mr. Gaudry) long list of questions. Under the Vision Capital Fund, could the minister describe the current operational status and level of the fund within the overall Venture Capital program? Mr. Downey: I would just ask him to be more specific in asking what, particularly, the level of the funds-would he repeat the question so we can get the inf ormation? Mr. Sale: I am asking first, Mr.

Chairperson, fo r an overview of the current status of the Vision Capital Fund, the number of loans, a broad overview. I am not looking fo r particular inf ormation. I am wanting to have an overall sense of where the fund is at present. Mr. Downey: Basically, at this particular time, the Vision Capital has made a total of 15 investments at a cost of just under $1 1 million. Mr. Sale: Is the list of projects available, Mr. Chairperson, or is that confidential information? Mr. Downey: I will check, Mr. Chairman.

The only reason is that we are dealing with private companies, and I am not sure whether I have the capability of doing that. I have no reason to not, but if there is a confidentiality clause which we have to live up to, then I have to respect that. That would be the only,reason, to protect the company or the interests of the company as it relates to providing that inf ormation. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Sale: I thank the minister fo r the inf ormation.

If you have to leave some inf ormation out fo r that reason that would be understandable, obviously, but it would be helpful to have a sense of the investments. Could the minister also indicate whether there have been loans that have been written off in that list of 15 investments of $11 million in any kind of venture, fund or generally companies which do not pan out? You aim to have 25 percent of them pan out really well. Could the minister indicate? Mr. Downey: There have been a minimal number that have had to be written off, but I would have to get the exact amount. Mr.

Sale: During the election campaign, the Canadian Liver Foundation telemarketing program fai led. Could the minister indicate why this project fa iled and whether there are any learnings from that in terms of other similar projects? Mr. Downey: The province had not flowed any money into that program, so we are not as a province at any loss as it relates to the actual cash that we may have invested. I would only be speculating. I guess it is a matter of some of the initial plans that they had thought would work out but did not.

The intention was, I believe-and it is unf ortunate because there were a considerable number of people who would have been employed, had been on the social assistance program. So I think the intent was certainly there, but fo r some reasons-whether it was management usually has some responsibility. Again I do not have the specifics, and again we did not lose any cash output from the province. Mr. Sale: Perhaps the minister could clarify then, the list shows an amount in each case. I had assumed until his answer that that meant that that amount had been used.

Is there some diff erence between the indicated amount and what was actually advanced? Mr. Downey: Yes, that is the agreed on amount if conditions are met. Conditions were not met with that particular project so there were no funds advanced. Mr. Sale: I am then, I guess, under the first one, Linnet. There is a blank in terms of total capital and jobs to be created in an amount of $200,000. What is the status of that particular program? Mr. Downey: Basically, that was a cost-shared study that was part of setting up the whole Linnet program which currently does have substantial employees today employed. -

June 12, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1321 Mr. Sale: An area in which Manitobans and Canadians have been concerned is the whole business oflmmigrant Investor Funds, and we had some serious problems in the province with one of those funds. An investigation, which was commented on extensively in last year's Estimates process-I understand that the Business Immigration Program is under review . I think it was December 1992, the province placed a moratorium on accepting new offerings; '93, withdrew from the program altogether; '94, the federal government placed a moratorium on the program.

What then is the status of this program, and is it still figuring here in our Estimates? Mr. Downey: As the member may or may not be aware, it is a federal g

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-15a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 15a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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