Vol. 4 No. 8 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the Period 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Thursday, February 15, 1979

February 15th., 1979 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape Uo. 290 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DW - 1 I am pleased to welcome to the galleries a number of members of the Buchans Action Committee with their chairman, Mr. Don Head. I know hon. members joi!l me in weleoming these ladies and gentlemen. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER.: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, on Thursday, February 8th., 1979,Magistrate Joseph LeClair of the Provincial Court of Newfoundland in giving verbal reasons for his judgement in the case involving a fire which occurred at Elizabeth Towers, St. John's,April 26th., 1978,"stated that confidential police reports prepared during the investigation into the Elizabeth Towers fire were unauthorizedly and improperly released to a person or persons,whieh reports were subsequently carried in the press.

I expressed a view by way of a p~lic statement on September 28th., 1978, that in my opinion the release of such reports and the statements which were contained in the press based on such reports at that time could prejudice the rights of a person or persons who might subsequently be charged as a result of such investigation. I was not aware at that time as to the person or persons who provided the press with such reports or who released same.fhe aagiatrate'a findings dealt with the unauthorized release of the reports but made no findings on the subsequent distribution and publication of same.

It is my opinion police reports arising out of tmy investigation into any suspected crime must never be made public other than throu&h due process of law,namely,the laying of charges and the evidence which may be given in court subsequent thereto. 708

February 15, 1979 Tape 291 SD-1 MR. HICKMAN: To do otherwise would seriousl y affect the rights of every Newfoundlander and would cause irreparable damage to the administration of justice in t.'lis Province, solile thing I am not prepared to see happen. Government has, on my recommendation, decided to appoint a Royal Commission under the provisions of the Public Inquiries Act to thoroughly investigate and obtain evidence under oath concerning these unprecedented acts.

The terms of reference will allow and ask the Commissioner to inquire into and report upon all facts and circumstances relating to or having any bearing upon the distribution and publication of the contents of the two confidential police reports in question, which reports are dated June 7th,,l978 and July 12th., 1978. The Commissioner is being asked to determine and report upon all persons involved in or connected with the release, transmission, duplication, delivery and publication of the contents of such report and to consider and report upon the justification, if any~for same.

The Commissioner will also inquire into and report upon the actions of any such person or persons involved in the release, transmission, duplication, delivery and publication of the reports. Further, the Commissioner will be asked to advise whether, in his opinion, legislation either by statute or by regulation should be inacted,if such statute or regulations are not presently in force, for the purpose of prescribing penalties for failure to maintain confidentia~ty of documents which are classified by the Crown as confidential.

The Commissioner will be also asked to recom~~end what penalties or sanctions should be imposed on police officers or any other persons in the public service wbQ have bre&ched such confidentiality and any persons other than public servants who have participated in same. I hope to be in a position to make public the name of the member of one of our courts who will 709

February 15 , 1979 Tape 291 SD-2 MR. RICKMAN: be the Commissioner at the earliest oppcrtunity in the hope that this inquiry can be conducted thoroughly and without undue:. delay. I _ am sure all Newfoundlanders will agree . it is absolutely essential to the efficient and fair administration of justi~ 4 tW.s Province that all of these matters ·be dealt with by a totally unbiassed and COJI!Petent person. This will be done . 710

February 15, 1979 Tape 292 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, just a few brief remarks in response to the hon. House Leader's statement about the Royal Commission of Enquiry into_a leakage of certain documents. We on this side welcome that, and if there can be any legislative provisions which can stop members of the public service or the police department from leaking things in the future, if that is deemed necessary, we welcome that as well.

But, Sir, I should add that the people of this Province should not allow themselves to be fooled by any attempt by the government or anyone else to drag what might be characterized as a red herring across some other very important matters confronting this Province. Point number one,while welcoming this COJrriri"ssion of Enquiry I would also ask the Minister of Justice if he is going to institute a Commission of Enquiry or a Magisterial Enquiry into the cause of a fire at Elizabeth Towers which could have lost the lives of 150 people - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. N.

ROWE: -back last April, which at the present time the cause of which is completely unknown to the people of this Province and there is a great deal of public unrest,not least of all among the residents of that institution, that building, and among the people at large as to how that fire was started,accidental or otherwise. And I hope that the han. Minister of Justice will appoint a royal commission or a magisterial enquiry to look into the cause of thei.fire. Now, Sir, probably even more important than the cause of the fire at Elizabeth Towers,! would ask the hon.

Minister of Justice whether he intends to appoint a commission of enquiry into the statements made by Magistrate LeClair concerning the state of the fire investigation service of the government in this Province. A couple of years ago the hon. minister stood up proudly and appointed Fire Commissioner Cardoulis as the Fire Commissioner of this Province and his appointment was applauded by both sides of this House - a very respected gentleman, a man who has

February 15, 1979 Tape 292 PK - 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe: the respect of everybody, I believe, who has ever worked with him. And now we find that a magistrate,whose views must also be listened to,has come out and said that he is not competent to investigate fires in this Province, and in fact there is nobody competent to investigate fires in this Province in order to determine the cause. That has caused a great deal of pub11c unrest and anxiety 712

•' February 15,1979 Tape No. 293 AH-1 1-!R.II'.FOWE: in the Province and I would ask the minister if he is going to conduct a public enquiry into that aspect of the justice system of the Province.

Because, Sir, I understand, not to mention the number of people who have already gone to jail on the evidence given in court in arson cases in this Province, not to even mention those at all and the questions that arise about that, I also understand that there is a great deal of concern among those people in the CID and the fire departmentwho may be required to investigate future fires which occur at the rate of eighty or one hundred per year in the city or the environs of the city.

It is going to be great difficulty in obtaining the services of anyone within this Province to investigate fires for fear that their reputation as fire investigators will be ruined, their evidence thrown out, their characters as fire investigators brought down loW,so to speak,and that we are not likely to get the kind of competent fire investigation which we have had in the past because of the problems which have arisen.

And, if the Minister of Justice, Sir, does not appoint a magisterial enquiry into the cause of the fire at Elizabeth Towers,and if he does not appoint a commission of enquiry into the state of fire investigation into this Province,then his statement made a moment ago can only be construed by this House and by the people of this Province as one gigantic red herring dragged across the issue. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hen. gentleman that he may not debate the matters referred to in the Ministerial Statement.

He may make comment or ask for explanation but may not enter into debate at this time. MR.W.ROtYE: I finally conclude, Sir, by just saying that I would hope that the minister takes his responsibility as Minister of Justice and as Deputy Premier seriously enough to enquire into these very, very important matters. A fire which could have killed or injured one hundred and fifty people in this city and 713

February 15,1°79 Tape :>lo. 293 AH-2 l'R . W. RO'.:t: the st.:lte of the fire investigative services of t he police and the fire department in this Province, that is far more impot:tant , Sir, at this time than trying to detetliiine the effect of the leakage of any document , confidential or otherwise. It is far more important,and if the minister does not take action it can conly be constru ed as a pol itical action on h1S part and an attempt to try and cover up the real issues involved. MR. SPE.AKER: MR. CALLAN: PRES~ING PETITIONS Bon. member for Bellevue. M.r. Speaker, ?1.4

F: ' February 15, 1979 Tape 294 MR. CALLAN: I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 210 residents of Markland. The prayer of the petition reads as follows: "We, the undersigned residents of Markland, do hereby petition the hon. House of Assembly now in session to hear the prayer of the petition regarding the deplorable road conditions in our community. EC - 1 "For the past number of years we have been looking for improvements to our roads but these impru~ements have not been made, The road through our community is in bad condition all the year round but is especially bad during the Springtime.

"We are requesting that government make monies available for reconstruction this year." Let me repeat that, Mr. Speaker. "We are requesting that government make monies available for reconstruction this year and,hopefully, pavement in a year or two when the reconstruction is finished." Mr. Speaker, that is the prayer. The residents of Markland, some of whom are here today,. who came in and protested their bad road conditions downstairs and are presently in the galleries, some of the-~e~idents from that community are here now.

They are asking that the road through their community - ·which is . not a dead ~ ~d ~ road, Mr. Speaker, it goes right on through Markland right over to Colinet, over to St. Mary's The Capes - and they are asking, Mr. Speaker, that monies be made available to provide some reconstruction. The people in Markland, Mr. Speaker, were successful in getting a couple of letters from which I have taken notes, a letter from the local doctor at the Markland hospital and a letter from the clergy, and I took a couple of notes from these letters, Mr.

Speaker, which I jotted down: "I, as the United Church minister serving this 715

February 15, 1979 Tape 294 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: community, join with the residents in respectfully requesting the Newfoundland Government to do their utmost to solve this most vexing problem" - concerning the road, of course. And then another quotation ?16

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 295 NM- 1 MR. CALLAN: taken from a letter, '~he majority of the residents are unable to drive their cars over the road 0 Only those with trucks and four wheel drive vehiCles are sufficiently adventurous to attempt passage. 11 Another quote, ''Under such atrocious and Medieval couditions,I shudder to think of the tragedy that might result should an emergency arise and the serlrices of an ambulance or fire eugine be required. 11 Just a c~uple of quotes from a couple of letters, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when I first came to this House of Assembly nearly four years ago now, I had the duty and the pleasure and the privilege of presenting a petition in this han. House of Assembly on behalf of these very ssme residents mel asking for much the same thing, improvements to their road. And the only improvements that will satisfy the people, and the only i111provements that will satisfy the road conditions, Mr. Speaker, is reconstruction.

The maintenance crew located at Whiboume are not capable, they do not have the equipment, and they are not capable of maintaining this road, The road needs to be reconstructed to Codroy and the bog needs to be taken out and a reconstruction job. Mr. Speaker, part of this road was reconstructed in '74-'75 and there was a great deal of bope that in 1975 that at leut half of the road would be paved. It was made ready for paving. It has deteriorated since,of course. You cannot put pavement on what is there now.

But in '75 it was made ready for pavement and many residents of that co-unity have said to me, ''We were supposed to get pavement in 1 75," whi.ch,by the way,was an election year. The election was held in September, What happened to it? And I have asked questions and from what I can find out, Mr. Speaker, the pavements that these residents were supposed to get in '75 went to another district, a district that the PC Party had 71.7

Februat"Y 15 • 1979 Tape No. 295 NM- 2 MR. CALLAN: not written off &!I a lost aeat,whic:h they had. don~ with Bellevue. They knew that the di.stric:t of Bellevue was written off.. They cut off all the PC sections a.ud left Bellevue the big diatrlct in between all the otbe.rs. MR. NEARY: It will not be long now. MR. CALLAH: So they speu.t their money whare they thought they had a c:h81lce of .Ucting a PC member. MR. SPEAEEll: Order. please! ?18

February 15th., 1979 Tape No. 296 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER: I would point out to the hon. gentleman that he confine his remarks to the prayer of the petition rather than debating on possible 110tives. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I went down to meet the delegation downstairs,some of the ladies there said that they had the opportunity to speak to the Premier, the present Premier, and the Premier said he did not hear anything about the road. Mr. Speaker, there is nobody in this Province who has not heard about Marklaad read,I am sure of that. There is nobody in the Province!

Two ladies told me that they had spoke to the Premier in that coWIIIllm.ity t'WI!I years ago. Obviously he must have known about the road. Mr. Speaker, I have a minute left. Mr. Speaker, in the five minutes that I 81ll allowecf..only five minutes I am allowed under the rules of the House-l cannot say very much-I could say an awful lot. But I hope, Mr. Speaker, that when the Minister of Transportation and Communications stands in his place that he will stand II to support this petition and not make flimsy excuses about, _The Budget 1a not brought down for this year 11and so on. The minister, Mr.

Speaker, has set a precedent.he has done that with the infaaeua Moukatown story.ae. has done. After that story was aired on CBC television,the infamous story - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I 11111st call to the hon. gentleUJl 1S attentioa the same point I did make. to the previous speaker. Mattera ~~ast be relevant to the petition and he IIIUSt atic:k tG the prayer of the petitioa, MR. CALLAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, when the minister stands in his place,I hope that the minister will have something concrete, something good to1say to the people who are listening in the galleries. Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition I ask that the petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 719

February 15th., 1979 Tape No. 296 ow - 2 MR. W .N. ROWE: Thank you, S!;r. I see my hon. ,colleagues are eager to support this petition as well,and Well they should be eafte ·•· Mr. Speaker • The road in Marklad refened to by the bon. melllher for hllevue {Mr. Cal.l.

m) ia, as bas beesi r~portecl to - - I have. not been over it ill receat weeks - but as reported to me ia in a vezy, very- deplorable condition. And, Sir, if 720

February 15, 1979 Tape 297 PK - 1 Mr. W. N. Rowe: it is ~vmotomatic of the ?rav~l road conditions ~nd even the paved road conditions throughout this Province, it is in very bad condition indeed. Before dealing with that, Sir, let me first of all congratulate the han. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) district. No other member in this House, Sir, has done more to try to bring forward in this House, in this public forum, the conditions of his district, especially as they relate to the road conditions.

Scarcely a day has gone by in the couple of years that I have rejoined the House since becoming Leader of the Opposition that that han. member has not been on his feet in a very vehement way expressing the needs for improved road conditioning, upgrading of its roads,and paving of the roads in his district, in common with many other members, but no member has done more than him to try to bring the needs of nis district to the attention of this hon. House and the Minister of Transportat i on in particular. do not know what is happening to the roads, Mr.

Speaker, around the Province but it will not be long before the gravel roads, the dirt roads particularly,are going to be absolutely unpassable, no longer passable for vehicles or any other kind of_traffic. Every time you turn on the news you hear about mothers out picketing roads, Mr. Speaker, in order to keep the traffic from going over them, in order to keep school buses from going over the dirt roads,because not only are they in uncomfortably bad condition but in many cases are actually unsafe for school buses carrying school children to go over.

And we have all heard the outcry in the last number of weeks concerning some of the conditions which attach to the transportation of school children. Well,here is one thing the government can do; the government can ma~e sure that the roads over which they have to go for their education are in some kind of a decent condition, a decent passable condition so that at least that safety aspect will be removed. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition wholeheartedly . I think the Minister of Transportation should rise to his feet now and assure the han. member and the residents of his district who are in the 72~

,I February 15, 1979 Tape 297 PK - 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe: galleries today and have been downstairs demonstrating, he should assure them that as soon as weather conditions permit this road will be upgraded to a suitable standard, and certainly maintained now at a standard which makes it a decent road, a passable road, a road which is safe and comfortable for all traffic,especially school children, especially people who have to use the road out of economic necessity to commute back and forth to their places of work.

I congratulate the member, Sir, for the work he has been doing, publicly and privately, on behalf of ~is district, trying to•_,get decent road conditions. And I do hope the Minister of Transportation will get up now and assure the people concerned that something will ~e done now and as soon as the construction season starts. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon.

Minister of Transportation, Sir, wishes to support this petition and tell the people who are sitting in the gallery from Markland what he is going to do with this road in the way of reconstructing and paving this road,I will gladly yield to the hon. gentleman. Well obviously, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman dees not intend to make a statement today. Sir, first of all, I want to join with my colleague_ in congratulating the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) for bringing the needs, and the real wants and needs of his constituents before this House. also, Sir, want to congratulate the people from Markland and surrounding area who came in today in the middle of Winter,who were driven to desperation, came in and had a peaceful demonstration in Confederation Building. MR . CALLAN: Seventy-five dollars to hire a bus. MR.

NEARY: It is seventy-five dollars,! am told,to hire a bus to come in, Sir, came in at their own expense, and unfortunately we were meeting downstairs .~ an~ l did not have an opportunity to gel d·own and meet the people personally, but I want to congratulate them, Sir, on the orderly fashion and the democratic way in which they carried out this very peaceful demonstration to try to impress upon the administration the need to do something with their road. It is not the first time, Mr. Speaker, 722

February 15. 1979 Tape 297 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: as Your Honour wfl1 remember, I believe Your Honour when he was Leader of the Oppositi'Qi'l, and sin~e Your HQnour becalile Speaker that we have heard the case of the Markland road pleaded in this han. House. I have heard it on at least ten occasi.ons, ten· different occasions myself, and the only conclusion that I can 723

february 15, 1979 Tape 298 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: come to, Mr. Speaker, is that the people of Markland and vicinity must be wonderful people, they must be a very patient people, they must be a very tolerant people to put up with the condition of that road and to put up with conditions that they have been forced to tolerate over the years. Mr. Speaker, if that road to Markland led to a fishing river, a salmon river, or if that road led to a ~ood place for shooting partridge, or hunting, it would have been upgraded and paved long ago.

Or, Sir, if some big shot had a summer cottage at the end of that road it would have been paved long ago. MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: where their pavement went. MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: That is where the pavement went. That is right, Sir, that is Right. And here you ha~e a situation, Sir, where we saw this administration especially pave roads to people's summer homes and summer cottages and they cannot even get an ambulance over the road. If you go down there now you need an all-terrain vehicle to get over that road. MR. ·sPEAKER: Order, please!

I would point out to the han. gentleman the same rule which was applicable to his colleague is ~ctually applicable to him as well, the necessity of avoiding debate. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is almost impossible to restrain yourself, to stop yourself from getting carried away, because we have heard of the Markland road so often in this bon. House. Where now are all the leadership hopefuls? Let them get up and tell the people of Markland what they are going to do if they get the opportunity to serve the people of this Province.

What will they do about this road? .~~-~--Speaker, let us not just hear comment from this side of the House; then it looks 724

February 15, 1979 Tape 298 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: like partisan politics, it looks like we are getting a little political mileage, getting some political Brownie points when in actual fact, Sir, we are not.

And I can tell my colleagues right now that if we form the government,whenever the election is called~that I guarantee you this - and Markland is not in my district, and I know a lot of people down that way, Sir, and t sympathize with them - and I guarantee you that road will be reconstructed, upgraded and paved, and I make that as a commitment of the Liberal Party, Sir, if and when we get~e opportunity to form the next government of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for St. John's West.followed by the hon. the member for Conception Bay South. DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, time after time in this Legislature we have heard the very important case of the Markland road. The case has been presented here,and it has been presented well, why Markland needs this road upgraded. Every morning people leave Markland to go to work in the ERCO plant, take their cars, trucks and drive over this road. In the Spring it is a terrible road to drive over, in the Fall it is a terrible road to drive over, in the Winter it is a terrible road to drive over. The only time it is a good road to drive over, reasonably good, is in the middle of the Summer and then it is dusty.

This is an important farming area of Newfoundland, one of the original farming areas that were established; vegetables are grown, People should be going to Markland to pick up their vegetables and to go back to buy and to sell, and that requires a good road, hopefully one with paving. The school buses go over that road. Children go over it every day, or try to get over it. 725

February 15, 1979 Tape 298 EC - 3 DR. KITCHEN: There have been times when the bus has not been able to get over the road. Ambulances have been mentioned. It is a through road to Colinet. This is an important road for this Province. It is an important road in the area. It is vital that this road be passable. And it is not that this need has not been recognized in this Rouse, because we have had commitments from the government to have this road paved.

The hon. the Minister of Tourism,who was the penultimate or the antepenultimate, he was the Minister of Transportation a long time ago, but when the present Minister of Tourism was in Transportation I wrote him a letter on the Markland road and he responded saying that it would be upgraded and paved shortly. Now of course he was whipped out of that portfolio and they got another guy in and now they have another one in. Part of the problem is this musical chair game that is being played where one min~ster does not know the commitments of the other. I might mention this.

I was looking through some old papers the other day and I came across the Bellevue election material, and I came across the election material published by the Progressive Conservative candidate, Mr. Speaker, who was Dr. Graham Bennett, the dentist~ 726

February 15,1979 Tape No. 299 AH-1 DR. KITCHEN: a fine man, in ~lhitbourne. In his campaign material he promised, the Progressive Conservative Party said, "We will upgrade and pave the road to l~rkland': That was there, it was no ifs, ands and buts; it was not"if you elect me"or anything like that. It was a commitment by the party, a commitment by the party,which means the present guy who is going out as Premier, that was a commitment. That was five years ago now-it was just about four years ago that that commitment was made, a promise to pave, and it should be done. Now we talk about broken promises.

What we need, Mr. Speaker, is a royal commission into broken promises, that is what we need, not a royal commission into hypocrisy and injustice but into broken promises. ~!F.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that the rule applicable to his colleagues further in the southerly direction is also operative in the northerly direction. DR. KITCHEN: The people of ~!arkland . deserve a road, they deserve a road. It is very important for people to have a road that is upgraded and paved, a road that is used every day.

I believe that it is time now not to make a promise - It is no good for the Minister of Transportation to get up in his place and promise to pave it. We have had enough promises. What we need now is for tomorrow morning for some highway equipment to go out there and start the job. Go out there tomorrow morning - not next week but tomorrow morning! Get out there and fulfill the promises that were made in 1975 and made again the year before last by the then Minister of Transportation. MR. SPEAKER: ¥.R. NOLAN: Ron. member for Conception Bay South. Mr.

Speaker, I rise briefly to support the prayer of the petition as presented by my hon. friend in such a capable and able fashion representing the plea of the people of Markland in eonnection with the road) as he stated, that extends from Markland, Colinet and to St. Y.ary's the Capes. The question that arises as a result of

-~ February 15,1979 Tape No. 299 AH-2 MR. NOLAN: this petition surely must be why the need for it in the first place. Why is it necessary for these people at some considerable financial and personal expense to be present here in the House of Assembly at all today? One would think with our system that they elect a member of the House of Assembly and that they would make their needs known to him. Are we to think then that they have failed in this regard? Obviously from the remarks made and the pleas made by the hon. member in the past this is not so.

So we come to another point: have they then taken the trouble to call various officials in the Department of Highways or Transportation and Communications as it is known now? Have they done that? I understand, yes,tbey have. So they have covered that ground as well. Have they attempted to contact the minister's office? I understand, yes, that that was so. The next point is were they recently or ever made a commitment by anyone in a responsible position or running for election that the work in fact would be done? Again we are informed, yes, that this is so.

So how degrading is it when we are all preaching about , democracy to have these people here today practically on their knees, going around with placards, attempting to get what is rightfully theirs, no more or no less than anyone else in this Province. They are not asking for any luxury items, they are asking for a simple road. Now why do they not have it? We have asked in the last session of the House of Assembly,and the year before and the year before that,for thR current ~inister of Transportation to place before the members of the House, all members, the work

schedule for the year, what roads will be reconstructed, what roads paved in all districts in this Province. Do you think we ever got it? No~ No ,because in that way you cannot play games with the people of the Province, you hold them up for ransom and this is what is being done otherwise,obviously,or the people would not be here today. But I would like to mention one other thing in connection with this road and it is this. I have noticed in the past that the administration have been good enough to provide

February 15,1979 Tape No. 299 AH-3 various funds for certain groups to go to certain places,whether it be 6ttawa or to come into St. John's and so on,o~ public business. Is it so revolutionary then if I were to suggest now that the people of ~·arkland be given two things today by the minister? One,the assurance 729

February 15, 1979 Tape No, 300 NM- 1 MR. NOLAN: that he will pay for the bus that brought them in, provide the funds to them and cover their expenses while they are in here today pleading for their rights on the road, And secondly, a very definite commitment: What 1s the position of the administration on that road, clearly enunciated so there will be no ifs, ands or buts about it, so there will be no need for another election, so that they will have 1110re promises one way or the other?

Let us lay it on the line to them now while thay are here in this House and let us not continue to demean the people of Markland and other areas of this Province, wbo must feel ashamed of the whole system that they have, that they find it necessary to come here in the galleries of this House and also to placard and to demonstrate in the Confederation Building in an orderly fashion which they did today, Let us show them the respect that they deserve as members of the Province, as citizens, as citizens of Markland, as taxpayers, and as people who are-asking for no luxury, me~elY. the reconstruction of a road, and obviously it is a prayer that is represented by all the people in that area and I do not think for one IIDment, Mr.

Speaker, that they should go home empty-handed, So I strongly support the prayer of this petition and I ~ sorry that it bad to happen in this fashion, MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. gentlet~an already spoke on this petition. MR.. NEARY: MR.. SPEAKER: MR.. NEARY: MR., SPEAKER: No. Another petition? Yes. The hon, member for LaPoile 0 If he yields, the hon, member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, ?30 1./

February 15, 1979 Tape No, 300 NM- 2 MR. F. ROWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it was not my intention to support the petition, not that I did not think it was worthy of support,but I had hoped that the Minister of Transportation and Communications would have seen fit to stand in his place and let the people, the d~nstrators, the responsible d~nstrators who spent $75 of their own money to hire a bus and come in here today and present their facts, And they have done this in a very responsible fashion and I 1111 sincerely sony that the minister baa not seen fit to reply to the prayer of this petition.

Sir, I wholeheartedly support my colleague, tbe melllber for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) , and I congratulate him and the people who are in the gallery today for bringing this matter before the Bouse of Assembly.

I would like to try to get the minister on his feet to ask him one fundamental, basic question; In a tillle of restraint, Sir, wben Heavens knows we cannot throw away dollars, or even cents, why it appears to be the policy of this administration to allow roads that have been upgraded for paving to deteriorate over three or four years to the point where musive upgrading is required again just to get the road back to normal? It has happened in my district, the district that I presently represent, it happened in my old district of St.

Barbe North,and it has happened in other districts throughout the Province where,before an election~a road, in this case the Markland Road, was,I understand,that half of the road was totally upgraded, made perfectly ready for pavement and four years later that road is nothing more than a glorified bog. Where we have smbulances, school buses, fire trucks and other vehicular traffic travelling over that road, Sir, I cannot tm.derstand it.

It is money down the drain when a department of government upgrades roads ready for pavement and then allows that same road, or these same roads to deteriorate to the point where they have to be completely rebuilt again. 731. --

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 300 NM- 3 MR.. F. ROWE: I would sublllit, Mr. Speaker, that money would be well saved if the government did nothing during election campai~ns, or prior to election campaigns, did absolutely nothing, It would be money saved, rather than the despicable situation that we have here of half of the road through Markland being totally upgraded, ready for pavement, and then deteriorated, washed away, muddy rocks and everythin~ else. Well, Sir, 1n that respect I would like for the minister to get up and support the prayer of this petition.

I wholeheartedly support it and I would like to certainly hear a word of explanation from the minister for the sake of the people who have taken the trouble to come into town here today. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR.. F. ROWE: Look, you cannot get a squeak out of him, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition, Sir, ou behalf of fifty-one voters, citizens iD the beautiful Southwest Coast c:ollllllll1lity of Grand Bruit. I do not know if hon. members have had the opportunity to visit Grand Bruit. 732

February 15. 1979 Tape 301 SD-1 ~. ~EARY : If they have, Sir, I think they "170uld have to agree with me that it is a beautiful community and, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the residents of Grand Bruit can not come to the people's House like the good citizens of ¥4rkland because Grand Bruit, as hon. members know, is an isolated community on the Southwest Coast. It is one of three isolated communities in my district, in the district of LaPoile.

There are very, very frjendly and hospitable people in the community of Grand Bruit, Sir, and for the longest time now they have been under the impression, rlghtJ .y or wrongly, that this administration are trying to force the people to leave Grand Bruit , to leave it, to leave Grand Bruit and LaPoile.

We heard so much bellyaching about resettlement and centralization from this hon. crowd before they became the Government that I never though, in my wildest imagination, that I would find a community right in my own district that is in deadly fear that this administration are trying to force the people to leave Grand Bruit. Well, Sir, I can tell hon . gentlemen that the people of Grand Bruit have no intention of leaving and they want their services improved. And this petition, ~~r. Speaker, has to do with the electrical supply, with the power plant in the community of Grand Bruit.

When this petition was sent to me, Sir, for two weeks past, so the petition says, the generators were not working, diesel generators were not working properly and the people had to cut down on the use of appliances in that community. And as my hon. friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) would say, "Electricity is not considered today to be a luxury item; very necessary".

And just to show the !louse, Sir, how Grand Bruit has gone ahe<~.d in leaps and bounds and that the people have no intention of leaving it and that the Government may as well face the facts and replace these three diesel generators that they have there at the present time with one generator, one 733

\ February 15, 1979 Tape 301 SD-2 MR. NEARY: deisel generator with a standby that can generate enough electricity to keep all the electrical appliances in the community going, the following, ~! r. Speaker, is a list of the appliances that are in Grand Bruit at the present timei there are ~«enty-four hot-water tanks, thirty T.V.s, sixty­ two refrigerators and freezers, sixteen dryers, sixteen electric stoves, three automatic washers, twenty-seven portable washers, one electric welder, one electric pump, plus other small type appliances. And with the above list, Mr.

Speaker, it says here in mine, we think it shows how great the need is in Grand Bruit, how great the need is for a bigger diesel generator for that community. When the three generators were put in eight years ago, there were not that many electrical appliances in the community, Sir. The number of appliances has drastically increased and the people now are asking for a generator that can keep these appliances going twenty-four hours on a year-round basis. It is a reasonable request, Nr. Speaker, and I have no hesitation at all in s~pporting the prayer of the petition.

There has been some correspondence back and forth between myself and the newly a~pointed Chairman of the Newfoundland Hydro, who lead me to believe that •rhen they were preparing one of the generators another generator gave out, recently, and that was the cause for the drop off in the voltage in the community. I do not lmow if that is true or not, Sir, but it does not make any difference whether it is or whether it is not. The fact remains that there is room for improvement in that community as far as the generation of electricity is concerned. And I have great pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, today to lay this petition on the ~able of the House and refer it to the Department , and to the Minister to which it relates, in the bope,Sir,that the ~Iinister will ''send his officials down to §rand Bruit to take a good,hard look at what is n~ded in the way of improve~nts t!lat ~rill ensure the people - --- --- --

.... __ february 15, 1979 Tape 301 SD-3 :·!R. NEARY: in that community that they will have electricity round the clock, twenty-four hours , year -round to operate all the electrical appliances in that community. ~!II. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition . ~!R . W .1'1. RO'NE: ~! r. Speaker, I have great pleasure to rise and support this petition iltesented by the hon. member for LaPoU e (Hr. Neary ),. a petition sublaitted to him for tbe bon. Bouse 735

February 15th., 1979 Tape No.302 DW - 1 MR. W.N ROWE: by fifty-one adult resideBts, which must be about the total population, MR. S. NEARY: That is 100 per cent. MR. W.N. ROWE: I have been there a couple · ·of times myself, Sir, on the coastal boat - well,once really because another time we could not get off the boat the weather was so bad at the time so I could not go into that beautiful community.

The name of the community, Sir, Grand Bruit as it is pronounced in Nevfoundland,me.austof course, translated in French'great noise'or'big noise.' And I think, Sir, that it is time that that name was put into literal operation in this House when in this day and age a community of fifty-one adults and probaily three or four timu ~ aa ~y childrea do not hava an adequate supply of light and power and it is time there was a loud noise made about that, Mr. Speaker. And the member for L&Ppoile district (Mr.

S.Neary) is prebably the beat qualified of all the melllbers in the House to put that name into action,well known as a fighter,a man for making noise when noise has to be made about injusticetand this is certainly an injustice. When we are talking about developiftg Lower Churchill power and other power sources in this Province - MR. S. NEARY: Superports. MR. W.N. ROWE: Superports for this place and, you know, blastillg holes in the ground on either sides of the Straits of Belle Isle leading up to elections at the cost of $100 million of the people 1 a IIK!11ey, when we are talking about that sort of thing, Mr.

Speaker , then it whould not be too difficult to get an adequate plant ill Grand Bruit to supply those pe•ple there who want to live there, who n.joy livillS there md want to s&ay there, to supply them with adequate light and power and,Sir, I hope at reasonable cost as well. We hear very ominous noises eomillg from Hydro, Newfou:adland and Labrador Hydro recently concerning the fact that Hydro electrical rates are going to go up and up and up and up. MR. S. NEARY: Up she goes! MR. W.N.

ROWE: And, Sir, I hope that not only can the government take this very reasonable request into consideration on behalf of the people of this community but also the .larger requests of the ?36

February 15th., 1979 Tape No. 302 DW- 2 MR. W.N. ROWE: people of this Province generally to not only have a supply of power electricity, electrical energy but to have it a cost that every individual can afford to pay. Sir, I have great pleasure in supporting this petition and I hope that the government can move on it immediately. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. WINSOR: The han. member for Fortune - Hermitage. Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague, the member for LaPoile.

And I certainly can sympathize with the good people in Grand Bruit.! live in much the same enviromaent as they do,on an island. We originally had to use diesel generated power but we are fortunate enough to have it come from Bay d' Espotr underwater, which some people think is a new concept. It is not quite that new.

It is an excellent concept but not for Grand Bruit, I would think that the Power C0111111issiDn could possibly get a better system in there than diesel, And as I remember only too well,diesel power gives a fair amount of trouble, You have to have so many standby generators and people who are sold the idea'develop more electric facilities in your homes 1 and so on.and'it is surprising how ~~~&ny of these people are depenclent onl electrcity for heating and the other things mentioned by my colleagpe. I do not think we can stress this too much;these people are hard working people.

I would not doubt but today they are out on the fishing grounds, fishing,and it is their time to fish in the Winter and ~if you come hollll! and the power is off it is not so good. If you wake up in the morning­ and they do uot wake up in the morning ;they are up going eut on their grounds • around 11:30 or 12:30 in the night-if the power goes off when they are gone they come back and find everybody half frozen. They are not too happy about it.

And the backbone of our fishing economy is the Southwest Coastji do not think anybody can deny that,going twenty-four hours a day ,365 days in a year .And anything that the .!'ower Commission can do for Grand Bruit they should be doing,and we should not have to be standing up here in the House of Assembly asking, pleading for a service that should be provided. I heartily support the petition so ably presented by my colleagee. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for St, John's West. 737

February 15th., 1979 Tape No. 302 DW - 3 .Mr. Speaker, I would lfk~ to lend my sup'PQrt to t~is petition because it is part of the birthright of eve'ey Newfoua(ll.at:tcler to have sufficient heat and sufficient heat f'rom. eleetrid:ty. This is the DIPBt wealthy p~vinee of all Canada, one of tb·e rl.c;lu~st areas in the world as fa'r as elec:trl.c:ity ia eonceTned,aDd the idea that any p&l:t of this Provillee cBDJJot have sufficient ele.ctrlcity is repungnent to anyone w:ith any .seuse. Ani:l wbat wa ha~ to guarantee every siugle NeWfoundlander is e1eetricity. 738

February 15, 1979 Tape 303 EC - 1 DR. KITCHEN: electricity that comes out, all we nee~, all we want, and anything else will never be tolerated. And there are many things that can be done in this Province to guarantee electricity to us at reasonable rates, many, many things, and it is time that we got fast to that. Now this problem here that has been brought to the attention of the Rouse is a serious one.

There are many other serious ones with respect to electricity in this Province as well, and we should be addressing ourselves as a Rouse to this question of electricity rather than to come in here for a few hours and go home again about our silly business. We should be here and stay here and we should straighten out this electricity problem in the Province. We have electricity for Quebec, we have electricity for Britain through ERCO, we have electricity for Bowaters, we have electricity for Price, but we have no electricity for the prople of Grand Bruit. Why not?

It is very, very serious why we have electricity for everyone except Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. And we must have it for us. It is our electricity, it is our resources and we have to use these things to make life pleasant, more pleasant, more possible for Newfoundlanders who need to be kept warm. There are many people, I do not know of so many in Grand Bruit but I know there are people in this Province now who are cold right this minute because they cannot afford to pay the electric heat bills as required to keep their house going, to keep it warm. And that is s9.

I can bring you to many places in this Province,and I am sure my hen. colleague can do so in his area as well, where people are cold - MR. NEARY: That is right. DR. KITCHEN: - because this government has not come to grips with this particular problem. Everyone in Newfoundland and Labrador should be guaranteed as a

February 15, 1979 l'ape 303 EC - 2 DR. KITCHEN: birthright, because we have so much power, such huge amounts of hydro-electric power in this Province - we do not know what to do with it, we have so much of it. So we give it away to everybody but we do not have enough for ourselves. And I believe when the history is written this will be the big thing that people will remember about the past seven years of famine. MR. SPEAKER: Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. the member for Mr.

Speaker, I am not totally familiar with the details of this particular petition since I am presenting it on behalf of one of my colleagues who has been called out of the House of Assembly on urgent business, and in view of the fact that the news is out this will be the only day for a sitting, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons), a petition, Sir, signed by twenty-seven salmon fishermen in the community of Burgeo.

Sir, it seems that a number of years ago these twenty-seven fishermen were lost approximately five days of salmon fishing because of certain conservation measures which were instituted by the federal Department of Fisheries in that particular area of the Province, and as a result of that they lost, they calculate, approximately $1,000 each in these five days of salmon fishing.

And what they would like, Sir - I realize that this really comes under federal jurisdiction - but through the offices of the provincial government I hope that the people in the provincial Department of Fisheries can consult with and negotiate with the civil servants in the federal Department of Fisheries with a view to repaying these twenty-seven fishermen who lost approximately $1,000 each, very unfortunately, because of certain conservation measures that had to be taken, Sir. 740

February 15, 1979 Tape 303 EC - 3 MR. F. ROWE: Like I said, Sir, I am doing this on behalf of my colleague and friend representing the district of Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). I wish that I had a little more detail to present to the House; however, it is obviously a simple thing, but very important to the twenty-seven fishermen involved, Sir, and I would like to give this petition all the support that I can muster, Sir. And I ask that the petition be placed on t he table of the House and referTed to the particular department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The bon. the member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, I have a few choice words to say, Sir , in support of this petition, because,if bon. members will recall, last year I presented similar 741.

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 304 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: petitions in this House on behalf of my constituents in the district of LaPoile, because this regulation that was brought in by the Federal Minister of Fisheries, by the Federal Fisheries Department, Sir, a year ago, affected all the salmon fishermen of the Southwest Coast, especially in my own district of L&Poile, where the salmon fishermen lost anywhere from $1,000 up to probably $5,000 aa a result of cutting five clays off the salmon fishery at the begiDDing of the season, the most important part of the season for these fishermen.

They were not allowed to put their nets in the water until five days later than in previous years and as a result of this there was a drastic:. cut in the income, Sir, of the fishermen in that ar~. And the salmon fishery on t_he Southwest Coast, especially in my district, is big, Fishermen depend in the main on the cod and salmcn. A lot of the fishermen, the small boat fishermen, a~ my hon, friend from Gaultois probablv is .ware, depend on the salmon for a large part of their income. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the kicking up of a fuss about this loss of five days, the representatives of the fishermen in my own district and along the Southwest Coast came into St. John's, held a number of meetings-Mike Best from Diamond Cove was one of the chief spokesmen for the fishermen, a man who haa no hesitation in putting forth hi.s ideas and hi.s views on this matter, a hard working fisherman - later went over to New Brunswick and did not get to first base, Mr. Speaker.

What the fishermen were looking for- they understood that conservation measures had to be taken not on!.y in the salmon fishery, the lobsters and the cod and the grey sole and the redfisb _amd everything else; that they understand, the consenatton measures- but what they do not understand is why,right out of the clear blue sky,these regulations 742

February 15, 1979 Tape No . 304 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: should be thrown at them and no compensation given the fishermen for loss of income. And they were told 1 in order to appease them,to pacify the fish~rmen, the Federal Department of Fisheries said, '~ell, okay,wait until the season is over. If there is any loss of income we wi.ll take a good hard look at it." Well, they never did take a good hard look at it and if anybody benefited, Mr.

Speaker, by cutting off five days of the salmon fishery in Newfoundland in the Gulf and along the Southwest Coast it was the fishermen over in New B:r:unawick that benefited by it, because that is where the pressure came from. What they were saying to Newfoundlanders, ''Let the salmon go by for five days so they can get over in New Brunswick ed be caught." MR. W. CARTER: Where the minister comes from. MR. NEARY: I do not care where the minister is from.

There are lots of things that the Government of Canada and the Federal Miniater of Fisheries and all the other ministers, lots of things they do that I do not agree with and this happens to be one of them. I agree with taking conservation meaaures, but if you are going to discriminate against Newfoundlanders compensate them for it-and it is not too late to do it ye.t.

Thia government, Sir, did not raise a finger to my knowledge,even though I brought the matter up in the House several times since last session, the government did not raise a finger to come to the aid and the support of the salmon fishermen who are going to suffer a· drastic loss of inco-. So, Sir, I support that petition presented on behalf of the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) and I do not know if it is too late to do anything about it; I do not think it is.

But certainly, Sir, this matter should be brought forcibly home to the Federal Minister of Fisheries and try and get something done about it if it is not too late. If not 9certainly there should be something done this year because I have no doubt, Sir, this year, 743

FEbruary 15, 1979 Tape No. 304 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: and the season is almost with us, that there will be a repeat performance and that the salmon fishermen over in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia will reap the benefits of the loss of five days income, which is at the beginning of the season, which is the most important part of the salmon fishery as anybody who is familiar with the fishery on the Southwest Coast realizes, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! PUSENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITIEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. mel!!ber for Mount Scio. DR. WINSOR: Mr.

S~eaker, I wish to table the report of the Standing COIIIIIIittee on Public Accounts for the period ended March 31st., 1977. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~niater of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table special warrants and regulations under ''The Financial Administratio~ (Salaries of the Comptroller of Finance and Auditor General) Regulations, 1974, Amendment" and "The Civil Service (Bi-Weekly Remuneration) Regulations, 1978. ?44

February 15, 1979 Tape 305 PK - 1 NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of interim supply to Her Majesty. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the Premier has gone.I would have directed this question to him, 0h~here he comes, Sir. MR. F. ROWE: The Jatest (inaudible). MR. W. N. ROWE: Pardon? MR.

NEARY: A puff of smoke coming out of him. thought you had to give up smoking because you have a spot on your lung? AN HON. MEMBER: He cannot do it. MR. NEARY: Cannot do it? Cannot give it up? Conquered the other thing,though. PREMIER MOORES: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: is have the will power. MR. W. N. ROWE: Yes,that is right. I never thought he would be .able to do it, My son,it is no trouble. ~_All you have to do __ _ Mr.

Speaker, if I can break into this unseemly -_e_arnaraderie going across the House here. and ask the PrPIIIier if he intends as Leader of the Government to do as has been announced publicly by the House Leader,that is to close the House of Assembly by a motion to adjourn~obviously,or the motion will be deemed to be made this afternoon, whether the government intends to close the House of Assembly after this afternoon's session is finished or whether they 745

February 15, 1979 Tape 305 - PK - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE : intend to carry on with the House and deal with some public business? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, we are planning to adjourn the House as the House Leader has advised,! understand, the Opposition House Leader not for any reason because as the Leader of the Opposition knows I just love the place and would dearly love to be here. But it is a smail matter of votes, Sir, and_ I am not just _ s~~~ I have -got the same control over some of the group over here as I had before. MR. W. N. ROWE: A sup~lementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. W. N.

ROWE: Sir, does not the Premier agree that, just to take three examples alone,not to mention the other problems facing the Province that -~h~ ·unemp)~ymen! pr~~lem_, 40,000 of our fellow Newfoundlanders presently unemployed, the highest unemployment rate in our history now; the announced increase to Light and Power by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro,lO per cent this year, 10 per cent in the year to come, perhaps another 10 per cent thereafter; fli"e complete lack of confidence of the people of the Province in our ! justice system as a result of the remarks made by the magistrate recently concerning the fire in Elizabeth Towers, and the failure of the Minister of Justice to take any action whatsoever to clear up the public unrest and lack of confidence: These matters alone, Mr.

Speaker, I would submit to the Premier,would merit and war.rant the keeping of this House open1 any·~~-of these matters,certainly all three together and the other matters,would ask that this House be open, of does he think that the internal leadership problems of the 1.ory Party, the P.C. Party,! should say, come first and foremost before the interest of the people of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all the fact is that the business of the government will be going on in the next month.

The fact is also that obviously the new Premier and the new leader of the government is 746

.... February 15, 1979 Tape 305 Premier Moores: to have his own ideas as to what policy should be adopted and what issues should be brought before this House to be dealt with by the House. And for that reason, Sir, I think it is totally reasonable and totally rational when you have a new PK - 3 government and a new leader of that government that they bring in their policies ~o the House at the appropriate time. MR. W. N. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. W. N. ROWE: The hon. the Premier is obviously taking his advice these days from a well known open line host.

Sir, a further supplementary along the lines - MR. NEARY: up in Ottawa? MR. W. N. ROWE: Is that the fellow who is embarrassing his brother Oh.,wen! One branch of what I asked the Premier about I will now direct to the Minister of Mines and Energy since he is eager to get his public leadership shot away, Sir. Did I understand him correctly to say that,after we had called for the same, that the government will be giving consideration to putting a freeze on further increases in hydro electrical power increases in the Province?

And if I did not hear him correctly,or if there is a need for some understanding,will the minister give the House the commitment,and the people the commitment,that the government,as long as he is Minister of Energy~! will not go so far as to say he is going to rise to any higher post, but as long as he is Minister of Energy~ will he endeavour to have the government,as long as he is minister,keep a freeze on the hydro rate increases which have been announced by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro? MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, my position on that is simply 747

February 15,1979 Tape No. 306 AR-1 l-'R. PECKFORD: that the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation when it requests an increase will have to appear before the Public Utilities Board and be scrutinized and investigated and after they have been scrutinized and investigated,the Public Utilities Board will decide whether any of the increase requested is justified. And if they so decide that some part of the increase is justified 1 then they recommend that to government.

At that point in time I think government has a very strong responsibility to review the present circumstances in the Province economically and then to make a decision,not in the light of the economics of the corporation, not in the light of the financial autonomy of the corporation or of the Public Utilities Board; and that is the reason why in the Electrical Power Control Act we deliberately put in a phrase or a clause which allowed for the final arbiter of power increases to remain in the hands of government,where it must memain in my view.

So therefore what I am saying is at that point in time,if these other tvro processes are followed, 'at that point in time government must, not only from an economic point of view but from a social point of view, access whether in fact the Newfoundland people can bear an additional increase in electrical charges in 1979. 1-fR.W.ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. }ql, W. ROl<E: A supplementary, Sir. A supplementary. The Leader of the The Public Utilities refer~ed to, that is the one where the bon. Minister of Justice just appointed his best friend as the vice chairman,I understand. Mi.. HICRMA.J."': Do not be so nasty.

MR.W.ROHE: "Do not be nastyJI'Mr. Speaker, I will nasty the bon. ~inister of Justice before this is all through. :'IR. SPEA..'I{ER: Order, please! Ron. members are required during the Question Period to stick to asking questions and giving answers. 748

February 15,1979 Tape No. 306 AH-2 ~. W.P011E: \{auld not the han. ?-!inister of !·fines and Energy agree - he has become very reasonable, Sir, since he threw his hat in the ring- •~auld he not agree that he could save the Province a great deal of money~since it is a social question and a political question in t~e broadest sense of the word, a political question as to vhether the people of this Province should bear the further burden of increases. It is uot ~ financial problem, it is not a problem of economics with regard to the Hydro Corporation,but a social problem which the government must deal with?

Does he not believe that the government could save a great deal of money,because those hearings cost hundreds of thousands of dollars which have to be borne by the Hydro Corporation and any interveners~ Would he not agree that the time is now right for the government to seize this thing, grapple with it,and come out with some kind of statement to the effect that no further increases will be allowed,at least this year and perhaps for a couple of years,until we know where we are going with the Lower Churchill and so on?

This would be a social and political decision which would be welcomed by everybody in this Province. ¥.?.. SPEAKER : ~!R. PECKFOBD: Hon. !~nister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that that ••auld be in the best interest of the Province because I believe that through the investigation process if a referral ·±s made to the Public Utilities Board by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro we get the opportunity and the consumer groups in the Province get the opportunity to scrutinize again.

But because there have been changes to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro as a result of the last investigation last year, it does not mean that there are still more changes that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro needs to make to make· itself more efficient, to make it more accountable and so on. For example, Mr. Speaker, last year as a result of the hearing by the Public Utilities Board major changes were instituted by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro which have saved the consumer money and which have saved the government money. So therefore another referral to the Public Utilities Board might even 749

February 15,1979 Tape No. 306 AH-3 MR. PECKFORD: save additional money and at the same time government,with its social responsibility,can still decide upon deferring any increase for 1979 , so you have th~ best of both worlds. One is the possibility that government will_decide in its wisdom that there will be no increase and,secondly,you can still scrutinize and investigate Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and make further cost reductions which will enhance and improve not only Hydro but will save the consumer money.

So you can have the best of both and that is why the process which is started should continue.and at the same time govenmenL had the last say in the matter from a social point of view. MR.NOLAN: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. }'R. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the bon. member for Conception Bay South. l~R. NOLAN: To the Mini~ter of Mines and Energy.

In view of the comments that he made that it was a social problem and so on,would he not agree that it is absolutely necessary for consumer groups, or one group,if you like,to be equally armed,if you like,as well as the power·companies,whether it is Newfoundland Hydro, Newfoundland Telephone or Newfoundland Light and Power?

I have often had the feeling,as I have stated in this House before and as one who has gone to various board meetings and so on when increases were coming up,that it is necessary - Newfoundland Hydro and Newfoundland Light Power and the telephone company have the wherewithal, the cost of which,by the way,is passed on to the consumer anyway,obviously,to bring before such a board expertise that is not available to consumer groups in this Province. I am not trying to be difficult on this~! am trying to ask 750

February 15, 1979 Tape 307 EC - 1 MR. NOLAN: a good solid question which I believe is relevant in this regard. Unless there is one body representing the consumer that can go before the board with the necessary data and expertise,whether it is financial or technical, I say that it is a shame to try to delude people, that, you know, you can appear before the board. Because they are not on an equal footing. It is like going to court, I suppose, without a lawyer, if you like. So I would ask the minister if he would to address himself to this problem which I believe to be a very, very urgent one. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy . MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that the hon. the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) has asked that question, because it gives me the opportunity to indicate to the House,and through the House to the people of Newfoundland,that we, the government,provided a grant, an outright grant of $34,000 to the Federation of Municipalities, which was the total coat of their last intervention, t_o_ ·allow them to wipe off that debt for their intervention last year and to commit ourselves to providing whatever funds are necessary to the Federation or whatever vehicle the consumers of the Province want to ensure that the expertise from outside, inside or wherever is brought to bear.

One of the reasons why the Public Utilities Board decided as they did last year was because of the expert intervention by the Federation. And that is why it cost so much. That is a fair figure, $34,000. Now, Mr. Speaker, to truly answer the question: After the hearing was over last year and the Federation had expended $34,000 or $35,000, the Public Utilities Board ordered Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro 751 .

February 15, 1979 Tape 307 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: to pay 90 per cent of the cost of the Federation's intervention. Newfoundland Hydro went back and said, "From a legal point of view we do not think we are obligated to pay," at which time the Federation said to the Minister of Mines and Energy, PLook, the Hydro Corporation is going to take this to court. We are still out our $34,000 or $35,000. What are you going to do about it?" And government decided at that time that we would pay it.

If Hydro wins its case so that it does not have to pay any awards when the Public Utilities Board so orders, we will change legislation to ensure they do have to pay in future, if that is the appropriate course to take. If it is not we will establish a policy of paying by grant - not loan - a grant to the Federation or any other reputable consumer organization so designated and accepted by everybody to be the one to ensure that expert intervention is made on all requests to the Public Utilities Board in the field of telephone, Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

I think the Public Utilities Board process is useless, totally useless, unless you have a group like the Federation,and like the gentleman who did most of the interventions last year, Mr. Clarke, the lawyer from Corner Brook, whom everybody recognizes as being very good in this field, unless you have that other balance to it.

And I think we ha;e _said in writing to the Federation that whatever happens to the court case now between Newfoundland Hydro and the Public Utilities Board in the way of whether they are legally bound to pay any award that the board gives them, no matter what that legal case says, government will undertake to provide a grant to the Federation of Municipalities,which seems to be the organization to be the consumer focus ~~ - Newfoundland, so that they can bring in people from wheresoever to ensure that a proper intervention is held so that the Public Utilities Board 752

February 15, 1979 Tape 307 EC - 3 MR. PECKFORD: will be in an equitable position to award or not to award increases on all these utility requests. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will hear a final supplementary from the hon. the member for Conception Bay South. I will then recognize the bon. gentleman from LaPoile and the hon. gentleman from Windsor - Buchans. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the bon. minister is probably aware that recently, in the last week or so, a former head of the Hydro, Commander Demarais, I believe is his name - MR.

DOODY: Commander Desbarat. MR. NOLAN: - Desbarat, who lives in Mount Pearl, appeared on C.B.C. on Here and Now and indicated that the Newfoundland Hydro is overstaffed, overpaid and is becoming very much of a bureaucratic vehicle that is too expensive, overmanned, overpaid and so on, and is somewhat out of hand. Now this is coming from what you would normally consider, I suppose, a creditable witness. I am wondering how the minister feel~ himself about the bureaucratic setup that you have really within Newfoundland Hydro. MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr.

Speaker, I did not see the interview that the hon. member refers to, so that therefore I am not in possession of all the statements made by the gentleman 753

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 308 NM- 1 MR.

PECKFORD: who was having the interview, Suffice it to say now that we are aware that in all Crown corporations there is the tendency, because of the way you trJ to set them up on an autonomous basis and so on, to be overly staffed and as a result of our own internal review of the situation in the last twleve montha the staffing requirements of Hydro have been reduced by same what over 100 fi our attempts to streamline and make the whole corporation more efficient, and we are rather proud of our record in the last twelve months in that we have reduced and made those coat deficiencies so that the savings can be passed on to the consumer.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon, member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. gentleman, Sir and I was hoping that the hon. gentleaan would come into the House thia afternoon and make a statement on energy because there is an awful lot of uncertainty, there is an awful lot of concern at the moment - whether or not we are going to have, apart from increases in electricity rates, whether or not there is going to be ratio::U.ng of gasoline and oil as a result of &11 the unrest that is taking place in the world( What is the aituation regarding Newfoundland?

Has the minister had any discussion with Imperial Oil,or the parent company of Imperial Oil that are talkin~ about rationing or Qutting down on the supply of crude oil and gasoline in Atlantic Canadat Could the minister make a statement, allay any fears that people may have in their minds that we are all going to be froze to death before the Winter is over? MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The hon, Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr.

Speaker, it is a bit too early to make a definitive statement on that because there are negotiations underway in the last couple of days by IIUillY of the maj()r oil companies with some suppliers of crude and gas from around the world. We are in touch with Imperial Oil. I was on the phone last night to seven 754

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 308 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: different oil companies in Canada for about forty-five minutes in which this whole matter is being discussed right now. So we are in touch with them almost hourly. We are on to Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa because of the national government and they must look at the national and global picture of the situation, so we are on top of the situation, It is too early to say.

The only thing I can. repeat is what I said last night on a TV interview and that is that some oil companies are indicating that the heavy users of crude oil or of gas might be put into u. allocation kind of situation. If they ara using nov 30,000 barrels of oil in their operations,then that is where it will be kept. They will have 30,000

whereas perhaps that industry or that e0111111ercial venture might like to have a little cushion and usually order 35,000 barrels instead of 30,000, only using 30,000 and keeping the other in reserve~they would not be allowed to do that. It is still even too early to be definite on that. We hope within a few days to be able to lUke a more clear statement as to shortages or no shortages, new agreements made between Imperial or Shell or Texaco or some of the other majors as it relates to new supplies of oil in Mexico, swaps that are happening in Europe as well as in Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: A SU~~plementary, MR.

NEARY: I would assume then from the han, gentleman's 1Dl8Wer, Sir, that there is a serious crisis developing and I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that the bon. gentleman will not spend his time out trying to straighten out the leadership prOblems of'the party but will pay attention to this very serious crisis that seem11 to be developing on the horizan. Now, Sir, in c:onnection with energy, and that seema to be the topic: of the day, could the bon. gentleman tell us if the goverument has taken any ac:tion on a suggestion made by • I 755

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 308 NM -3 MR. NEARY: believe it was a civil servant in the Department of Foraatry recently, that the government undertake a programme of going out and cutting all the wood that was damaged by the spruce budworm in thls Province in the last four or five years that is going to be lost to Newfoundland forever? A lot of it cannot now be used to make paper or linerboard or anything else. The government have let it go too long, have left the timber at1111ding too long, 1111d this wood, Mr.

Speaker, could be used to fire the wood furnaces that are being put in homes in this Province at the present time, The wood furnaces and wood stoves are going in houses now in galores. People are getting scared. They cannot cope with the high coat of electricity and oil and they are. afraid of the oil shortage and they are go~ back to using wood. And what I want to ask the minister, Sir, is if last year the Government of Canada made a proposition to this Province, or this Province did not take advantage of a Federal/ Provincial cost sharing policy 756

7 February 15. 1979 Tape 309 SD-1 r.!R. NEARY: to cut the wood as Nova Scotia did, New Brunswick did, some $30 million. as I understand it. to cut the wood thzt was damaged by the spruce budworm. This Province did not take _advantage of that program and I want to know why, because that wood now is badly needed and could be used in this Province to generate heat and for people to do their cooki.'lg on their wood stoves and use it in their wood furnaces. M!t. SPEAKEP.: The hen. ~~nister. HR. PECKFORD : Mr.

Speaker, on the first subject that the hen. member raised as related to whether, in fact, are we too busy on leadership matters to be aware of what is going on in the energy field, I will just bypass that, Hr. Speaker. I think it is enough for me to say that I have been on to all the companies and on to the Federal Government in the last twenty-four hours in an attempt to get a clear picture of the oil and gas supply situation and we will continue to do that in the next tvTenty-four/forty-eight hours until we can get some definite direction as to <There the country is going on that very important matter.

On the second matter of wood generation for both heat and electricity, the hon. member, although most of us here in the House, Mr. Speaker, most han. members recognize that the hen. member for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary) usually listens to the radio and the television and gains most of his very valuable knowledge from those madia sources, lie missed on at least six occasions, obviously, listening to the radio and television at a time when I had announced, as Minister of Nines and Energy, and other people in the Department had announced that there is a $10 to $12 million program which ~7e are about to sign with Ottawa as it relates to alternate energy sources; that this ~vas started about six months ago, long before anybody was talking about wood generation or any seminars were being held. As a matter of fact, Hr.

Speaker, we are the first Province in Canada to sign 757

February 15, 1979 Tape 309 SD-2 HR. PECKFORD: such an agreement that has been available noiv for about six months under " ne~T statement issue by Ur. Gillespie, so l\"e lvill be do.ing •rood demonstration projects around the Province to try to demonstrate, not only to use it for heat but to also have demonstration projects in areas where there are forest stands, to prove that you can generate electricity near a community at a cost lvhich would be competitive with the conventional Rind of generation now that is occurring. We are not only going to do it on wood, l!r.

Speaker, we are going to do it on biomass, we are going to do it on solar, we are going to do it on wind and they are going to be set up all around the Province and in Labradcr. As a matter of fact, Hr. Speaker, I was in Rodc!ickton last week where I was pleased to be able to indicate to the people there that there are a number of little rivers in the Roddickton area that are now being looked at,and one in particular between Roddickton and Conche which, quite possibly, will be a small hydro development. MR. NOLA.'!: Canada Bay. !-.!R.

PECKFORD: It is on the wrong side of No. · The other one is Cloud r~ver,which is further down the line,but the first demonstration project is the little river between Roddickton and Conche. There is also one on the South Coast and one in Labrador to start, small low-head hydro projects which 1ve can start in 1979. So we are doing all we can, Hr. Speaker, to ensure that every conceiva!lle means is found to keep electricity at a reasonable,sane level. ~EAKER: I have indicated I will recognize the hon. gentleman from Windsor-Buchans,follawed by the hen. member for White Bay and his two colleagues, time permitting.

Perhaps I will,before the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans commences, draw the attention of han. members in general to Beauchesne, the new edition, page 132~ A question•must be a question, ?58

February 15, 1979 Tape 309 SD-3 ~!R. SPEAKI:R: not an e.'tpression of an opinion, representation, argumentation,nor debate. Tr.e question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully dra1m sentence. A long

preamble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes the same sort of reply. A supplementary question should need no

preamble." I put that to hen. members for not their o~m knowledge,they ~~ow it already,but for their own realization. The hoa: member for Windsor-Buchans. ~~. FLIGHT: ~fr. Speaker, I want to direct my qUestion to the ~!inister of For.;.stry and Agriculture (r-!r. ~'aynard). It comes as a result of his recent ezpedition. The minister is not in his seat so I will direct it to the Premier in this case. The Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, on his recent trip to Europe, indicated that he was looking for markets to export Newfoundland's timber supplieE, wood, to European markets or else• where.

Now the question is, 1~ it the Department of Forestry's policy as of nmv to seek markets in Europe or elsewhere to export wood in its unprocessed form, raw saw logs or pulpwood, not processed, is that the policy of the administration as of n~? l'ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER NOORES: As I understand it, Mr. Speaker, the talks that were held over there ••ere in the main for sawn timber,for two by fours and that sort of thing. Regarding the policy of shipping just raw timber, there has been no definitive policy on that to my knowledge ~but certainly to ship .sawn till!ber the anSloler would be yes. 759

February 15, 1979 MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. FLIGHT: Tape No. 310 (Night) A supplementary. A supplementary. DW - 1 Mr. Speaker, the minister has indicated that he has issu~d permits for 30,000 cords of wood to be exported, raw pulpwood to be exported over the next few days or the next few weeks. And he has indicated that he was happy that this wood was coming off Crown land limits because it was wood that by and large may have been affected by the budworm and would be lost to the economy of this Province.

I want to aak the minister have the paper companies - we know 1110st of the budworm infeated wood in Newfoundland today, wood that will be lost to the economy, is on the pulp and paper compa:niea' limits - is he working out with the paper companies and have the paper companies iuciic:ated a willingness to allow that wood to be cut by private operators and put into the export market as opposed to being lost to the economy of the Province because the paper companies themselves, as he knows, have not got the ability to cut that wood and utilize it? Now is he attempting to get an agreement from the paper companies?

Are we going to cut the budwom infested wood, the 1110ribund wood right now that will be lost over the next four or five years, and .allow private operators to cut it and put it in the export merket the wood on the paper companies' limits? MR. SPEAKER: and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: The hon. Minister of Forestry Right now, Mr. Speaker, there is really no. need of exporting the timber from the paper companies' limits. If there is an export market developed for wood off the two major limit holders in the Province, I a sure that we can work out an arrangement.

In the meantime, ve have an agreement with the two paper companies to harvest budwom infested timber around the Province, some 260,000 cords per year for the two mills - SOME RON , MEMBERS : MR. DOODY: MR. MAYNARD : .Oh, oh! Watch yourself now. Have some control. Does the hon. gentleman want the question answered or want his colleagues to babble on over there for a few minutesl We have an agreement with the paper companies, Mr. Speaker, to harvest the budworm infested wood on their limits to the greatest extent possible.

There is only a certain amount of budworm infested wood they can put into their system and·. have the same quality of paper output. They can only take a certain 760

February 15th., 1979 Tape No. 310 ow - 2 MR. MAYNARD: percentage and they are taking that percentage and putting it into their system at the fastest possible rate and they will continue to do that over a five year period,which is the length of the agreement we presently haae with them. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, the minister and the Province well knows that the only budworm infested wood that the paper compaaies will cut on their , limits · is wood that they themselves will utilize in their own operations.

And my question is simply thi!! : wUl the paper companies be prepared to allow the Province to export the wood that they will not be able to utilize and if not exported or used by sawmillers be l08t to the econamy of this Province simply because it is on the paper companies limits 1 It so happens the paper companies owns most of the merchantable wood in this Prov6nce. MR. SPEAKER: Ron, minister. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is talking about ~!%pOrt of budwo1'111 killed ~er, First of all, I think he should understand or he should already know that it is impossible to erport anything other than prime timber to the European market. The oil.ly places where budwom killed timber can be used is in the North American mills- or has been used in the past.

The export permits that we have issued, with one exception,for wood going into Eastern Canada, other parts of Eastern Canada are all for prime timber and there is no way of getting into the European market unless one has prime timber to offer to that market and that does not include budworm killed timber. We have to find other uses for budworm killed timber . to the gre.ateat poasibl.e as the Minister of Mines and Energy was indicating a little while ago u.d as I have already indicated the two paper mills are already putting it into their system to the greatest extent possible.

MR, SPEAKa:: Thehhon. member for Terra Nova. 76.1

February 15th., 1979 Tape No. 310 ow - 3 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a que~tion to the M:lDister of Labour md Manpower. I tbink the substance of thia Cl.uestion comes under his jurisdiction. It is a question, Mr.

Speaker, related to the McCarthy judicial inquiry, For the benefit of hon. lllelllber.s tM.s was a royal cOaimission set lip in February of 1977 to investigate the causes relating to three deaths of employees working with the Iron Ore Company of Canada in Labrador City, and secondly, the cOIIIIIIiSatoa waa to look into the entire matter Of hea,lth and safett:'With the IOC operations in Labrador City. And, Mr. ~aker, the matter of health and safety in the mine operations in 762

February 15, 1979 Tape 311 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: Labrador City and indeed in Wabush have been the cause of several labour disputes in recent months which have been resolved each time on a temporary basis pending the completion and recommendations of the McCarthy enquiry. So I am wondering if the minister could indicate to the House whether yet the enquiry has been completed or whether he has received a copy of the enquiry to this date? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The han. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

I am aware of the Commission report -and aware that there is action on it, but I have not received a copy of the report, I have not studied it. The only thing I might mention also at this present time that the occupational health and safety as it pertains to the mines comes under the Department of Energy, and that will not be under the Department of Labour and Manpower until after the lst. of April,! believe. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: minutes is up. MR. SPEAKER: DR. KITCHEN: I am afraid that the time has expired, the ··~ni-rty ORDERS OF THE DAY The hon. member for St. John's West. Mr.

Speaker, I hereby ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance 9 namely~the imminent astronomical rises in the cost of electricity and home heat resulting from the emergency situation caused by oil shortages and from the announced intention of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to seek a 20 per cent increase in electricity rates, 10 per cent this year and 10 per c·ent next. Mr. Speaker, it is entirely in the power of this hon.

House not only to prevent such increases but to bring about a dramatic decr~ase · in the price of electricity by declaring null and void the power contract with Hydro Quebec and by instructing Churchill Falls(Labrador)Corporation to charge Hydro Quebec a higher price for electricity. I believe this matter to be of urgent importance to every family in this Province. 763

February 15, 1979 Tape 311 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Under Standing Order 23 I must now decide whether the han. member is asking for leave to debate this matter under Standing Order 23 · is in order, not whether to debate the matter under some other heading is in order, but under Standing Order 23. As han. members are aware this is a quite restrictive Standing Order and the precedents quite restrictive. There can be no doubt of the urgency of the matter. If it were the urgency of the matter,then the ruling of the Chair would obviously follow.

But as hen. members are aware,one of the operative factors is the urgency of debate, and also that continuing conditions or states which have existed for so~-time and ~re· continuillg.; o~r_ ~veri b-:.~omj n~ aggrava~e~_, _that· t.~is is precluded under Standing Order 23, this and the stricture not on the urgency of the matter, but the urgency of debate. Under Standing Order 23 I cannot rule it in order. The han. Minister of Justice.

MR. lUCKMAN: Before moving on to the Orders of the Day,or before calling the ·order Of l:lusine_ss,so I will not forget it later on this afternoon,! would ask that when Your Honour puts the motion to adjourn later this afternoon that the House adjourn until Tuesday, March 27, 1979 at 3:00P.M. subject to the provisions for recall. MR. W. N. ROWE: MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: When? March wh!!n'?­ March 27. Is that a debatable motion, Mr. Speaker? The han. gentleman is not moving the adjournment, Sir, and I would like to speak on - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The question has come up whether it is a debatable motion.

First,I must put the motion,- -nnas--been moved that when the House adjourn,it adjourn until the 27th. of March--· at 3:00 P.M.,subject to the usual conditions of recall. In my opinion,it· is a debatable motion. I am not aware of any authority to. the contrary, and-: in my opinion it is a debatable motion. 764

7 February 15, 1979 Tape 311 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, of course, we are going to vote against that motion, Mr. Speaker. We think it is ludricrous, it is an insult to the intelligence of the people of this Province, it is beneath contempt, it is disgusting, it is absolutely disgusting - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - that the government. Mr. Speaker, would put the internal affairs of their party, would put partisan politics above the affairs of state, above the running of the affai'rs of this Province. Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is suggesting, 765

February 15, 1979 Tape 312 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Sir, and what the hon. members have been suggesting for the last few weeks is that the Province be put on automatic pilot for the next almost two months, that nothing be done, that everything come to a halt, and,Mr. Speaker, this could not happen at a worse time in the history of this Province.

We have, Sir, at the moment, record unemployment, we have people faced with huge electricity bills and proposed __ _ increases in electricity rates, we have young Newfoundlanders, young men and women, desperately looking for jobs, and that situation is going to be aggravated in a short while when the students start to graduate from the vocational schools, the College of Trades and Technology and from the university in June - it will be further aggravated. We have record unemployment in the construction field among construction workers.

We have teachers being laid off, we have very sensitive negotiations being carried on with the police and the nurses and the teachers and various other groups in the public service. Mr. Speaker, it could not happen at a worse time in our history. Mr. Speaker, I would like for the government to reconsider this matter, Sir, to close the House down. Open her up for one afternoon, bring members in from all over the Province at tremendous personal expense, come in to St. John's for a sitting of the Rouse that will only last three hours! Mr. Speaker, this is a debatable motion, Sir, and I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that when the clock rolls around to 5:30 this afternoon, when, under the Standing Rules on the day that we have the Late Show, Your Honour has to assume that a motion to adjourn the House is acceptable, is in order, that Your Honour will realize that if we accept our responsibility in this hon. House, that if we take our responsibility seriously enough and we keep debating this matter until 5:30 this afternoon when

February 15, 1979 Tape 312 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Your Honour has to rise the House, that Your Honour has no choice but to leave the Chair at 6:00P.M., and there being no motion passed at that time, that the House will then have to meet on tomorrow. Does Your Honour realize that? MR. W. N. ROWE: Eight o'clock tonight actually, too. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: But anyway, Sir, my colleague says eight o'clock tonight as well - well, maybe - btit if necessary, Sir, I am prepared to stay here - MR. W. N. ROWE: All night. MR. NEARY: - all night tonight - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: - tomorrow night, back again next week at it. Let us have an emergency debate on the proposed increases in the electricity rates, high unemployment, the high cost of living, high taxes and all the other problems, all the other things that are nagging at the heartstrings of Newfoundlanders today, tearing the hearts out of our Newfoundland people~ T~~ uncertainty that e~ists in this Province at the present time, Mr. Speaker, is absolutely unbelievable and it is obscene, Sir, in my opinion, obscene to open up the Rouse and close it down after two or three hours. And, Mr.

Speaker, I am not interested in filibustering. That is not the purpose of the exercise, Sir. What we want is the government to come in and lay out tne-ir p~~n~~ ~~d what they intend to do about, for instance, increased vandalism and crime in this Province, when we are having armed robberies now at the rate of two and three and four a night . They not only go out now and hold up one service station, they are holding up two and three a night now. MR. W. N. ROWE: And the minister is worried about a leak. 767

~· February 15,1979 Tape No. 313 AH-1 l!R, ~mAFY: And the minister is worried about a leak, about plugging up leaks in the police department! Vandalism and crime, Sir, are on the increase. He have, Mr. Speaker, in this Province one of the greatest curses in our society today, the effects of booze on our people. What is the administration going to do about that the misuse and the abuse of alcohol? Mr.

Speaker, this hen. crowd can claim fame for one thing~ If they go down in the history books for one thing, Sir, it is for the number of brewers retail licenses that they issue in this Province and the number of night clubs and taverns and discos and joints and cabarets that they opened up since 1972. I believe the number has tripled since 1972. And yet, Mr. Speaker, they have done nothing to offset the effects of opening up the vats of the breweries and the distilleries causing a very serious drinking problem, especially among the teenagers in this Province.

We would like to find out what the government are going to do about that problem. It is a very serious problem, Sir, and we want to bear what plans the government have to deal with it.

If we are going to carry on, expand, throw open the vats of the local breweries and make millionaires out of the owners of these breweries and billionaires out of the distillers of whiskey, we would like to know, Sir - and the government is going to make~I believe,the highest amount of revenue they get is from the sale of booze-and we would like to know how much they are going to put back in an education programme, Sir, to try to do something about this serious problem. \ole want to find out what plans the government have.

So I am prepared to stay here forever,if I can.We will move one amendment after another to this motion made by the Government Rouse Leader. We will keep talking,if we have to,forever. This House is not closing today, Sir, if we have anything to do with it. It is a shame, it is shameful, it is disgusting and contemptible. We want to find out, Sir, what plans the government have for the fishery. Mr. Speaker, t~e are on the threshold of entering into a new fishing season in this Province and we have 768

February 15,1979 Tape No. 313 AH-2 YR. NEAFY: not yet seen the government's plan. He have heard a lot about conferences and meetings around the Province, He have heard a lot about superports and grandiose schemes for the fishery that will wipe the inshore fishery off the face of the map if this government are allowed to continue, because all they have done so far, Sir, is set themselves up as spokesmen for the multinationals. This government, Sir, and the ~~nister of Fisheries who is now aspiring to become leader of the Tory party,have spent the last six or seven years, Mr.

Speaker, championing the cause of the multinationals. of the big fish companies. And, Mr. Speaker, what is happening in this Province today, and anybody who has his ear to the ground knows it, is that Nickerson and National Sea are moving in and taking over all the fishery in this Province, swallowing up the independent processors. The next thing, Sir, they will have an monopoly, they will have a cartel.

The fishery in this Province will be run by Nickerson and National Sea • Even Fishery Products, ~~hich is owned by the taxpayers of this Province,will likely be swallowed up by these big giants from the ~ainland that are just swooping right across this Province and taking everything ahead of them. They are mowing everything down as they go across the Province. And the Minister of Fisheries is condoning that, aiding and abetting thnt sort of policy and following that suicide policy that is going to kill the inshore fishery in this Province • . The inshore fishery, Mr.

Speaker, is the - I am not sure if it was Your Honour who wrote the

article recently in the Evening Telegram and I must say that I did not read it in any great detail,but I did browse through it and there were some sood points in there~the inshore fishery, Sir, provides more employment 769

February 15, 1979 Tape 314 SD-1 MR. NEARY: for Newfoundlanders and for plant workers than the off-shore fishery. Twenty thousand or more, between 20 and 25 thousand Newfoundlanders earn a living or a part-time living in the inshore fishery. That, Mr. Speaker, will go down the drain if this GovermMnt follows on its present suicide policy for the fishery of superportsand grandioa schemes, new words they picked up travelling around Europe and so forth. MRs. F. ROWE: No chance for debate! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as my hon. friend says, "No chance for debate", just ram it down the throats of the N-foundiand people.

Mr. Speaker, what we need in this Province, in the way of fishery development, is a multitude of small fish plants around this Province. That is what my hon. friend should be advocating if he wants to become Leader of the Tory Party and Premier of this Province. not act as a spokesman, as a front 1 as a mouthpiece, as a chaw-mouth for the multinationals and the big fish companies.

Build a 11111ltitude of fish pl<Ults aroUDd Newfoundland so that the inshore fishery can thrive and expand <Uld develop and craate joba in the s.aller communities and in various ;egions of this Province instead of putting all your eggs in one basket. That is the kind of policy 1 Sir 1 we would like to hear about. No evidence of that being brought forward 1 Mr. Speaker. Instead of that 1 "Shut her down, close the House down 1 close her up!" And not tell the people 1 especially the fishermen, what this Government intends to do in the way of short-term and long-term fishery policy apart, Mr.

Speaker, frlllll critizing Ottawa! That is about all they know how · to do 1 critize Ottawa. They nave no fishery policy of their own. And we heard today 1 Sir 1 about the energy policy that this bon, crowd have. Non-existent! The energy policy now1 the Minister of Mines <Uld Energy (Mr. Peckford) is carrying it around in his new suit that he has got-"""· in the vest pocket of his new suit - for the leadership. That is the energy policy 1 in his vest pocket. Mr. Speaker, just a few questions today during the Oral Question Period - we only had a half an hour at ?70

February 15, 1979 Tap e 314 SD- 2 MR. NEARY: it and we discovered that the minister does not have a tight hold on the situation, does not have a grasp on the seriousness of the situatioa in At~tic Canada and in Newfoundland at the present time as far as the energy is concemed, that the minister, Sir, prefers,instead of coming in and making a statement and laying out Govel:llment policy in black and white and saying, "Here it is," and reassuring the people of this Province that they will not go hungry or they will not be cold or they will not be wet and damp •.

As a result of what is happening in the field of energy, ehe minister puts his leadership asperation above all that. What the minister should do right now is drop out of that race, drop out and try to do a, job for Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I put a question to the minister about a federal/provincial policy that is being carried on now the the last couple of years in connection with the cutting of damaged timber, timber that is damaged, in the various Provinces of Canada by the spruce budwonn.

Last year, Sir, I am told that New Brunswick and Nova Scotia took full advantage of this cost shared program to not only salvage the timber there, · to salvage the wood but also as a job creatil>n program to try to do so!".ething to solve the high unemployment problem in these Provinces. 771.

February 15, 1979 Tape 315 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: Nova Scotia and New Brunswick took advantage of this cost shared programme, federal/provincial cost shared programme whereby the Government of Canada put up : pretty _ we 11 an _ of the cost of cutting the damaged wood. But, Mr. Speaker, my information leads me to believe and my research leads me to believe that this Province sat back on their fannies and did not take advantage of that programme like our sister provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.

And as a result, Sir, as a result of their dereliction of duty, their negligence and their laziness, as a result of that, Mr. Speaker, we have timber that is now dead and lost to Newfoundland forever. Some of that timber, Sir, ~!'a_ ~_j_~ma!Je~ : __ fiv~ ,xears ago,&nd hon. gentlemen should know by now after all of the debates that have taken place in this hon. House that once timber is attacke 9[ by the spruce budworm, five years after it is attached it is useless, it cannot be used in paper mills; it has to be cut within five years or it is lost to the Province forever. Mr.

Speaker, this Province had a golden opportunity not only to cut some of that damaged timber--and immaterial to what the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture says about how the mills only have a certain input, the mills can only handle so much. What garbage and hogwash! Is it any wonder we cut the minister's salary last year, reduced it down to a dollart Is it any wonder, Sir, when you get that kind of negative thinking, that kind of an attitude from another leadership hopeful,who will not get enough votes to haul up a punt, not even in his own district, Mr. Speaker!

The mills can only use a certain amount,250,000 cords. How many million cords are damaged by the spruce budworm.~~~ hon. friend for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) should remember.- How many million? How many millions of cords of wood? MR. RIDEOUT: Does the minister know,! wonder? MR. NEARY: I do not know. think it is up around a."fl!5ut" ---· - ... 10 million or 12 million or something cords of wood. And the minister tells us this year they are going to cut 250,000 cords. because that is all the mills can handle. Well, Sir, what about all of the other mills throughout the world?

What about stockpiling the wood for future 772

February 15, 1979 Tape 315 PK - ~ Mr. Neary: use in mills, and export? What about cutting the wood for generating heat, generating electricity? What about cutting the damaged - how many ~illion cords? MR. FLIGHT: Five to seven million. MR. NEARY: Five to seven million cords,the expert here tells me, Sir, on the spruce budworm, damaged timber, five to seven million cords. The minister says, t~~tare going to cut-250,000 cords.

That means we are going to have approximately seven million cords of damaged wood that is going to be lost to Newfoundland forever as a result of negligence, as a result of laziness, as a result of stupidity on the part of this administration. A lot of that timber, Mr. Speaker, a lot of that timber could have been cut and should have been cut, and it is only now they are going to embark on a programme. MR. FLIGHT: Even that is on Crown limits, That 1s not even on Price and Bowaters. limit s , which got all of ttle-wood. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR.

FLIGHT: That is only on Crown limits, They are afraid to go in on Bowaters and Price. MR. NEARY: Yes,that is only on Crown limits. Five to seven million cords on Crown limits. MR. FLIGHT: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Total. Total. But anyway, Sir, Ottawa - Would the hon. member take his seat for a moment so I would be able to inform other hon. members of the three matters to be debated at 5:30 when the motion to adjourn is deemed to be before the House. There are three matters and the order in which received them is the order in which they will be debated. The first notice,given by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition,developing from a question asked the hen. the Premier with respect to the closing of the House of Assembly. The second matter, notice given by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans arising from a question asked the hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture with respect to forest policy. 773

February 15 1979 Tape 315 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker: The third matter,notice given by the hon. member for Terra Nova rising from a question asked the hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations with respect to the McCarthy Royal Conmission. They are the three matters which will be debated at 5:30. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY; Mr. Speaker, the point that I am making here, Sir, is one that I made outside of this House a week or two ago, and it is this, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister of Finance should be ashamed of himself,and all the ministers who have be.en involved in leaving. money in Ottawa, money that is badly needed in this Province to create jobs 774

February 15, 1979 Tape 316 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: and to develop the Province. Literally, Sir, millions piled up on millions of dollars have been left on the Ottawa table in the last five or six years, some of it covered under agreements.

The same minister I will talk about in a few moments left over $10 million on the Ottawa plate that was covered under an ARDA III agreement, but, Sir, in the last two years at least, millions of dollars have been left in Ottawa that should have been taken advantage of in this Province to cut the wood that was damaged by the spruce budworm and to create badly needed employment in this Province, and I have confirmation that the offer was there. The same thing applies, Sir, to the c~tting of the timber on the site of the Lower Churchill, a pro?osal fro• Ottawa. You know, Mr.

Speaker, this crowd cannot even spend money when Ottawa gives it to them. Ottawa came along and said, 'Look, we are prepared to pay you so much per man to cut the wood on the site of the Lower Churchill. 1 And thiR government said, 'Ottawa, you can go jump in the lake, we do not want your proposal. We do not need the jobs and we do not need your money to cut the timber on the site of the Lower Churchill.' And they used the feeble excuse that Ottawa is only going to pay us so much a job and we would have to put the rest up ourselves. Well,! would say, Sir, that is tough. Why could we not put the rest up?

Get rid of some of the political appointments, get rid of the Norma and Gladys , get rid of the helicopter contract, get rid of the office rental sweetheart deals that they have made and put the money into job creation, if they want to know where the money would come from. "We cannot afford it," they said, "because Ottawa is only going to give us so much a job and we cannot afford it.'' If they would only eliminate some of the extravagance and waste they would be able to afford it instead of bailing out people who create white 775

February 15, 1979 Tape 316 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: elephants and bailing out failures in business and put them down in the Newfoundland Senate, Newfoundland Hydro, cut out the luxurious helicopter service that we have in this Province, the best in North America, probably the best in the world, the most expensive in the world just to help out your political buddy. No, they cannot afford to take advantage of Ottawa's offer to cut the timber on the site of the Lower Churchill· 'We cannot afford it. We do not have the money. Ottawa will not give us enough.

They will only give us 90 per cent and we cannot - · put up the 10 per cent because we do not have the money. I Mr. Speaker, who are they trying to cod? What a joke! What a joke, they do not have the money! They have the money for everything else! They cannot afford to build a piece on the Grand Falls hospital, they do not have the money; cannot affford to build a hospital out in Channel- Port aux Basques, do not have the money. Well, there will be lots of money now in a few months time; there will be lots of money,sometime between now and September there will be no shortage.

Well, I want to say to the people in Grand Falls and the people in Channel-Port aux Basques and the people on the Burin Peninsula and the people in Clarenville and the people in Bonavista and all the people who cannot get beds in hospitals and all the si.'cit ·p_e~~ple on long waiting lists in this Province who cannot get badly needed surgery done, who cannot get treated for their ailments,. who are ill and the Minister of Health has the nerve and the gall to tell us nobody is suffering as a result of this, ~his is all elective surgery,'he says, 'nobody is suffering; I am assured by my officials that nobody is suffering.' I wonder can the minister look me straight in the eye and say that?

Mr. Speaker, the hon. ,gentleman should come down in my office once in a while and hear the requests that I get 776

February 15, 1979 Tape 316 EC - 3 MR . NEARY: from people who cannot g~t beds in hospitals, referred, Sir, and waiting for a year or two, lying on floors with their discs sticking out through their backs. MR. H. COLLINS: Oh, come on! Ha. NEARY: "Oh, come on!" h_e s4ys. I could give the minister e:;~~:amples that would make his hair stand on end. But no concern, Sir, no beds available for these people - a _lot of them have died while they were on the waiting list. Does the 111inister realize tha -t1 Row could the minister be so hard and eold

February 15, 1979 Tape No. 317 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: and callous and say nobody is suffering because of this waiting list of 2,500 _sick people in this Province trying to get in hospital. And at the same time, Mr. Speaker, and Your Honour may not agree with this, but .. ~n my opinion the level and standard of medical services in this Province is going down and down and dawn and we are losing doctors and our accreditation is soon going to be affected - MR. H, COLLINS: MR.

NEA:t\.Y: You do not know what you are talking about. - I do know what I am talking about - as a result of the internal politicing that goes on and doctors being driven into exile and vanished and discriminated against for political purposes, internal politics. Mr, Speaker, the level of medical services in this Province is deteriorating and the only way, Sir, you can get admitted to a hospital today is to go in and fling yourself down on the floor in the emergency or out-patients and say, "I am dying." That is the only way you can get admitted.

And the minister knows that and that is not good enough with the amount of money we are spending on medical care in this Province, $210 million in this fiscal year and the service getting worse, a weak minister who does not care, who is satisfied to accept the word of his officials that nobody is suffering as a result of a shortage of hospit•l beds~ Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to anybody in this Province to go down and try to get admitted to the new Health Sciences Complex that cost the taxpayers of Canada and of Newfoundland $65 million and still climbing, try · and get admitted, Doctors are aasigned so many beds. They are frustrated, depressed, demoralized, they have half a dozen beds each, half a dozen beds or so and a long waiting list of people waiting for these beds, as Your Honour knows full well, and when somebody is sick, Sir, they are sick, whether it is elective surgery or not. If you are sick you are sick. And I know a case 778

February 16, 1979 Tape No. 317 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: recently where a man's wife was suffering with disc trouble and Your Honour may say, '~ell,you could have that and you could live to be 100 with that." You could, Sir. But you could also suffer in the meantime as this woman did, had to practically go down and fling herself in on the floor of the emergency department of one of the hospitals to get admitted. The doctor threw up his arms and said there wail nothing he could do, frustrated with the way the beds are allocated, the internal politicing that goes on, the favourtism, the discrimination.

It would make you wonder sometimes, Mr. Speaker, if you get sick if it would not be better to go out and dig a hole in the back yard and bury you, You have just as much a chance, Sir, to survive as you have with the present system. Here we have $210 million being spent this fiscal year, the third highest spender in govermDent, and the Minister of Health sits back on his haunches and lets her just drift on, drift on. He does not intercede, step in, try to straighten the matter out.

In the meantime 2,500 or 3,000 of our fellow Newfoundlanders are sick, ill, suffering because of this callous attitude because nothing is being done about it. We are losing our doctors, Our young doctors are so frustrated, are the victims of the high-handedness of some of the hierarchy that are in with the cocktail set and in with the administration,that they say, '~ere is no future for me here.

As soon as I get my certificate, as soon as I get my training I am gone, There is no future for me in this Province." We have lost many good doctors and many good men and we are going to lose more unless the attitude changes, unless we open up and show our young people that there is a future in this Province in the field of medicine we are going to lose more than we have already lost. They feel that. they have a better future 01;1 the Mail;lland or down in the United States.

February 15, 1979 Tape 318 SD-1 NR. t~EA.RY : What is the Government doing about this? v1e would like to find out. No, Sir, they do not want to tell us.They want to close the House down. Now I drifted into the field of medicine there. I l7as on my hon. friend the llinister of Forestry and Agriculture (Mr.

Haynard), the dollar a year man, when I got side-tracked and I was talking about the ARDA III agreement I mentioned earlier, Sir, ARDA III, an agreement signed back in 1973 by the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture on behalf of the Province of Newfoundland and what put it in my mind was the statement made the other day by the President of the Board of Trade who ~~as critizing Ottawa for their agriculture policy in this Province.

The President of the Board of Trade was saying that Ottawa should do the same for Newfoundland as they are doing for Western Canada. 1\Tell, to that I would say: "Hear, hear." And I wrote the President of the Board of Trade, Hr. Anthony, and I pointed out to him that Ottawa had offered this Province, under a cost shared agreement, $16 million under a five year contract, ARDA III, and this Government only spent about three or four million of it.

Out of~6 million, Sir, they left over $10 million on the table in Ottawa, on the plate in Ottawa, $10~$11 million that should have been spent for greenhouses, developing farms,for all sorts of things in connection with agriculture, for going out and determining where we had suitable agricultural land, clearing land, development of agriculture in this Province. Is it any wonder, Hr. Speaker, that Ottawa looks at us rather askance down here and scratch their head and say, '""l'lhat is wrong with that crowd.

We give them money and they can not even spend it.' And every chance they get they are II critizin:g us.That is not the only cost shared program, Sir, agreement where there was r;JOney left on the Ottawa !::able , millions of doll<:rs .• ~~e had the same thins happen under the DREE agreement. We had the same thing happening under the two big refrigerated units that the 780

- --- __ :.,. __ _ _ February 15 0 1979 Tape 318 SD-2 HL NEARY: Einister of Fishcrie:o: (~Ir. W. Carter) has been telling us about that he announced before he went to 0ttawa - MR. F. BDWE: ~1R. NEA...~Y: Before he had the studies done. - before the studies were done and ~efore he asked Ottawa to help 0 anaounced these programs. these two big refrigerated units 0 and then went up and asked Ottawa to participate and that is all th,ey ·ever heard of it since. Sitting back on his haunches now, waiting for the leadership of the Tory Party to drop into his lap.

In the meantime Otta'lla is up there waiting for the l·!inister of Fisheries to come up and show thea his program. The same way with this alleged superport they are talking about. And the same thing, Sir, with the marine service centers. lfuat has happened to that program; MJ::. Speaker~ What has happened to the marine service center program? lUll it be discontinued? Is it going to be dropped? Ottawa is frustrated, they do not know.

It ~s a 90/10 cost shared program, 90 per cent paid by the Government of Canada, a progran that has proved to be of imme:nae benefits to the fishermen in this Province, the longliner operator and the small boat fishermen, immense value, and again, Sir, again this han. crowd is sitting back and doing nothing about extending this program and building ne~·T ~:~arine service centers in other parts of Newfatlildland. And I could go on and on, Hr. Speaker, and tal~ about various federal cost shared progracs. I could talk about programs where agreements have been signed.

I could talk about programs that this Government has not taken advantage of. And, Mr. Speaker, it involves literally tens piled upon tens of millions of dollars left in Ottawa, left on the Ottawa table. The same time, Sir, they are walking away from Ottawa leaving this money there, the same time every chance they get they have the flick at Ottawa because they think that is the thing to do. They thinl~ tf'-af.that is the thing that is going to get them elected. ''We c:lo not need your money~' they are saying to Ottawa. "~-Te do not have any 781.

Februar. ' 15, 1979 Tape 318 SD-3 HR. NEARY: uneL!ploymer.t do•m here. We do not need to develop our Province. ;.re do not need your !lloney, Keep it!" Anc Ottawa shoving it at them and they are 782

February 15, 1979 Tape 319 Mr. Neary: walking away from it, Sir, As a result they have cost Newfoundland literally tens piled upon tens of millions of dollars,and the Minister of Finance should get a kick in the rear PK - 1 for his negligence. I know the minister could not care less, this is his last appearance in the House; the han. ge