Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 7 (36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No.7 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, Apri114, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARREIT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

261 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, Apri114, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I have the ple asure of tabling the Annual Report for 1997-98 for the Child ren and Youth Se cretariat, and the Annual Report for 1997-98 for the Depart ment of Family Servic es. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill16-The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment and Parental Responsibility Amendment Act Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, sec onded by the Minister of Natural Resourc es (Mr. Cummings), that leave be given to introdu ce Bill 16, The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Prac ti ces Amendment and Parental Responsibility Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur le rec ouvrement des petites cr eances a Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine et Ia

Loi sur Ia responsabilite parentale ), and that the same be now rec eived and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I am pleased firstly to introduce to the House Megan Pauls, Hanover School Division, who has also been selec ted to serve as a page at this session. Wel come, Megan. In the public gallery this afternoon, we have twenty-four Grade 6 students from Meadows West School under the direc tion of Mr. Ed Yaworski . This school is lo cated in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

And, five Grade 9 students from Chapman School with the Crossroads Program under the direc tion of Mr. Rick House. This school is lo cated in the constituency of the honourable Fir st Minister (Mr. Fil mon). And, 50 journalism students from Red River Col lege under the direc tion of Mr. Duncan McMonagle. This school is loc ated in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett ). *

(1335) And, eleven Grades 6 to 8 students from Rock Lake School under the direc tion of Mr. Charles Friesen. This school is lo cated in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed). On behalf of all honourable members, wel come you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Frozen/Cafeteria Food Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, to the former minister responsible for the Treasury Board and the Deputy Premier and Minister of Health, who undoubtedly was involved in the dec ision to proc eed with this new frozen food in many of our health care facilities. I was puzzled by his answers yesterday in the House based on the experi ence that I had witnessed in my own community and other communities.

For example, at Concordia Hospital it appears to me that the cafeteria of the hospital is still open and the staff of the hospital have the option of eating the food at the cafeteria, and the patients are given frozen food from another site. In other words, there are two sites, not the one central site that the minister talked about. Can the

262 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l4, 1999 minister confirm that that is m fact what has happened? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): First of all, Madam Speaker, the objective throughout all of this change in terms of food services being provided to our hospitals is being done in conju nction with the nine hospitals themselves. As we all know, they own the Urban Shared Services Corporation. Certainly the No. 1 objective is to provide quality, nutritional food for the patients in our health care facilities and as well to do that as efficiently and effectively as possible.

In terms of the main provision of the food services, the majority in the main provision is being done through one centralized food service commissary that I believe the capital cost was approximately $20 million. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the minister did not answer the question. He has not tabled the business plan; he has not tabled the contract. He is following on the similar vein of the former Minister of Health, who did not table the contract, did not table the business plan, and withholding information on the cost per meal.

We know the quality of food is deficient from the previous system from patients, and I would like to ask the minister: are the staff eating food from one set of kitchens in the cafeteria, different food than the food that is being served to the patients? Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, Madam Speaker, the member refers to the contract and the business plan. He asked that question yesterday in this House.

There is more than one contract; there are a number of contracts that are in place, contracts between the health care facilities and Urban Shared Services, contracts between Urban Shared Services and the company that is providing the services. I did undertake to him yesterday to review all of those issues with the Urban Shared Services Corporation with a view to releasing whatever can be released. As he knows, sometimes there are preclusions because of third-party confidentiality and other issues.

He has been in government, although it was a long time ago, but he knows that full well, that sometimes there are, but we did undertake to review the whole issue of the contracts and the business plans. When he talks about the quality of food, I will cite him one example of a survey recently done by Victoria General Hospital during the week of March 28 to April 3, just a couple of weeks ago-found that about 80 percent of the patients related the food as good or excellent. The last survey, which was done before the Urban Shared Services took over the food services, found about a 65 percent approval rate.

So, by continually working at the system, Madam Speaker, the whole objective is to continue to improve the quality of food and to provide quality food to the patients in our health care facilities. *

(1340) Frozen Food-War Veterans Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have to assume that after asking the minister twice the same question, he does not have an answer, and what we hear in northeast Winnipeg and what we hear in other quadrants of the city is correct. The staff eat the food from the conventional kitchens and the conventional cafeteria, and the patients are served the food from the Filmon frozen food experiment. This government is still continuing to cover up all the contracts they have signed instead of making them public.

It is the taxpayers that are responsible to this Chamber, that pay for the hospital budgets through the Department of Health, through this Legislature, through whatever bureaucracy this government has created, whatever authority they have created in the last couple of months over to the hospitals. This minister should start taking responsibility, and this Legislature should get the contracts.

The president of the Royal Canadian Legion has stated that they have condemned the mistreatment of veterans, and they have asked this government to realize this mistake and return to the normal way of feeding our war veterans. What does the minister have to say to the president of the Royal Canadian Legion and the war veterans who want to go back to home- - -

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 cooked meals in the cafeterias rather than the Filmon frozen food that we have from this government? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, again, Madam Speaker, on the whole issue ofthe release of the contracts which the member referred to, I have indicated to him a willingness to look at that issue with a view to releasing what can be released, certainly in terms of looking to apply the same rules to those contracts as apply to contracts entered into by the government of Manitoba, even though they are entered into by the Urban Shared Services Corporation. So I have indicated a willingness to look at that entire issue.

When it comes to the quality of food, I have given him one example of a survey done at Victoria. I know surveys are being done at all of our health care facilities that have the new food services, and I know that the quality of food, the rating by the patients, continues to improve. As well, at Deer Lodge Centre some changes were made in terms of giving some options in terms of the provision of those foods. Again, I am told that that is something that is being well received by the patients.

So certainly the objective of the Urban Shared Services Corporation is to continue to work at providing quality food to the patients, to make sure it is nutritional and to be sure that it is done as efficiently and effectively as possible, that resources that can be saved in that area can be dedicated to other needs in our health care system. Health Care System Frozen Food-Operating Costs Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in spite of his protestations, the minister knows that the frozen food fiasco is far over budget with millions of dollars of renovations needed at the Health Sciences Centre and St.

Boniface Hospital not even yet tendered, let alone underway, with a facility that is hopelessly overcrowded. Will the Minister of Health finally admit that the frozen food project is over budget, that the plant itself is very overcrowded, extremely overcrowded, and is underperforming significantly in terms of meals assembled, and will he now table the actual capital and current operating costs of that facility? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, again, I think I indicated to the same member yesterday, let us look at this issue, and let us look at the objective of the centralized food services change to the Urban Shared Services Corporation, which is the nine hospitals. They are on both sides of the issue. They are providing the service to themselves. So the objectives throughout that are to provide quality food, provide nutritional food, to do it as efficiently and effectively as possible.

To give him one example when it comes to the capital cost-as I have indicated the capital cost of this one centralized facility is approximately $20 million. The capital cost of making improvements to all nine hospitals, I am told, would have been in the range of at least $40 million. So right there alone on the capital cost side of the equation there is a savings in terms of the capital cost, the investment that would be required to upgrade the kitchen facilities and maintain the kitchen facilities at appropriate standards.

As well, by providing services from one central location, there are the opportunities for the economies of scale and improved efficiencies, and that certainly will be and is the long-term objective of Urban Shared Services Corporation. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, spokespersons for the Health Sciences Centre dispute the minister's words: The costs were far less than he has ever put on the table.

Will the minister confirm that the renovations to the nine participating facilities required by this fiasco will cost far more than is budgeted and that in fact the renovations to HSC alone will cost more than was budgeted for the entire nine facilities? Mr. Stefanson: The member is wrong, Madam Speaker, certainly in terms of meeting the future needs of our health care system. We are not just talking today. Again, I know the members

264 LEGISLAT IVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 opposite take a short-term narrow view and cannot look over a medium-term or a longer term period of time in terms of what is required to provide quality food services in the most efficient and effective way. Certainly the facility that has been put in place will meet those needs for many years to come. So, over the next several years, in the absence of a centralized facility, all of our nine hospitals would have had to make significant capital improvements.

The amount that I have been provided with is those capital costs would have been in the range of about $40 million, and that compares to a capital cost today of about $20 million. Those are the numbers. *( 1345) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister finally do some homework and confirm that the facility now has more staff preparing 5,400 meals a day than was budgeted for to provide 8,700 meals a day? They already have 15 more full-time staff providing 5,400 meals than they budgeted for to provide 8, 700 meals. Will he do some homework and report to this House? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I do not need any lessons on homework coming from the only elected person in Manitoba who was reprimanded by the Monnin inquiry, and that is the member for Crescentwood right there. He can certainly read from the transcript if he is so inclined to be interested in terms of what was said about his performance as an elected official. But, again, the objective of Urban Shared Services is to provide quality food, to provide nutritional food and to do it as efficiently as they possibly can.

Certainly they are going through a transitional period, which we have acknowledged over the course of the last several months. We have acknowledged publicly that things are taking a little bit longer in terms of introducing the new system. That is not necessarily bad if it means at the end of the day we are going to end up with the best, most appropriate system in terms of meeting the quality that we all want the patients in our hospitals to have and being sure it is done as effectively as possible, Madam Speaker. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Auto Theft-Deductible Policy Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in the early '70s the Public Insurance Corporation was created by the Schreyer government which has resulted in the second lowest rates in Canada and an investment of money being maintained in Manitoba. [interjection] If you want to talk about the broken promise on privatization of Telephones, we are more than willing to talk about your broken word. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable members this is not a time for debate. This is Question Period.

The honourable Leader of the official opposition, to pose his question. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In 1997 the government changed the policy of the Public Insurance Corporation and required the deductible to be paid for by the victims of car thefts. We had urged the previous minister to look at dealing with the criminals, not the victims, in policy. I would like to ask the Minister of the Public Insurance Corporation whether she has reviewed this horrible policy established by the previous minister, and has she reversed that treatment to the victims of car thefts here in Manitoba. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): A very, very interesting question; the

preamble itself could take an hour to address. I will not burden the House with differences in how good stewardship can make good differences. I will not talk about some of the mismanagement of Autopac and MPI prior to this administration taking its place in Manitoba. I will say that the member likes to make comparisons, but he very seldom will make comparisons to what is happening in Saskatchewan where their deductible is much higher than ours. Theirs is $700 versus our $500. [interjection] On the basic. They have exactly the same system, except they charge their ratepayers more under the NDP in the - -

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 265 province next door, as they do in British Columbia. We have, Madam Speaker, been able to save money, particularly where auto theft is concerned, some $2.4 million this year alone in premium savings for ratepayers because of the things we have done with Autopac this year. Mr. Doer: A stolen car represents a loss of property to a family or an individual.

It represents much higher costs now with the Public Insurance Corporation, and it also represents a danger to other members of our community because of this car that is stolen in the hands of somebody that cannot be trusted on the roads. We believe, and I think all members of this Chamber believe, that all efforts of the public through their agencies and through this Legislature should be focused in on the criminal not on the victim. I would like to ask the minister: will she reverse this policy of having the deductible paid by the victim?

Let us focus in on the real problem, and that is the alleged criminals who commit the act. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, we have a number of programs that we co-operate in partnership with the community regarding auto theft. We have last year some $600,000 that was shared with the Winnipeg police, resulting in a 9 percent decrease in auto theft, by the way, this year.

In fact, if you take a look at March this year versus March last year, we are down 23 percent in auto theft largely because of measures of partnership and proactive things that have been done through combatting auto theft strategy and other measures put in place by MPl. *

(1350) Auto Theft Reduction Programs Implementation Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Acting Premier. Five promises were made during the last election campaign to Manitobans to deal with what was then and still is an epidemic of auto theft-by the way, a 210 percent increase since 1991. A 9 percent decrease does not touch that kind of problem that Manitobans are having to deal with.

But whatever happened to those five promises: the incentives for antitheft devices, the auto theft surveillance task force, the auto theft prosecutor, resources from the $2-million grant from the City of Winnipeg Police Service, the young offender auto theft work program? What happened to those? My question to the Acting Premier is: why should Manitobans now trust this government when it promises anything? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I was very interested in hearing the comments of the Minister responsible for MPI, where it is clearly indicated that the policies that have been implemented by this government are having a very positive effect on the reduction of auto theft, 9 percent in this last year. If we look March over March, minus 23 percent, it is in fact attributable to many of the programs that we have brought in.

One of the examples was brought forward in the Young Of fenders Act hearings that we recently conducted where a mother had explained that she had gone with her young son to get the licence and yet could not get the licence because he had created some type of crime affecting the ratepayers of Manitoba in terms of their Autopac, and he had to pay that. In fact, I understand from MPI that MPI now gets $9 million on a subrogated basis, on an annual basis, because of these proactive programs that our government has implemented. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Auto Theft-Deductible Policy Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): My question is to the Acting Premier. Would he explain to people like Lois and Brian Campbell, who came down to this Legislature here today to tell this government that on their $650 vehicle they had to pay a $500 deductible when their car was stolen, even though it was locked, parked in a parking lot under a light, would he explain to them why this government has broken five promises on auto theft when we are the auto theft capital of Canada and people are suffering the way they are? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, not only

266 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 have we not broken those promises, we have carried those promises out. The other one relates to the auto theft unit that the Department of Justice was very proud to partner with MPI and the city of Winnipeg police. MPI transfers $600,000 to the Winnipeg city police for an auto theft unit to in fact deal with auto crime, and that, in fact, is a very, very important aspect of reducing crime that we implemented in this last year. Also, the point that needs to be made is that Justice co-operates with MPI by dedicating a Crown attorney.

In fact, a Crown attorney has been seconded to MPI from the Crown's office to assist for the prosecution of special cases, especially organized crime, that deal with chop shops and the like that cause a tremendous burden on our ratepayers. I am very pleased to see that not only Justice has been active in this respect, but MPI has been doing an excellent job. Auto Theft Reduction Programs Implementation Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Well, then, my question to the Minister of Justice: can he possibly explain to Manitobans how this government has been effective in dealing with auto theft when there are 30 vehicles a day roughly getting stolen in this province and when promise after promise after promise after promise made by the government, promises that it said would reduce auto theft, have been trashed? Explain that to Manitobans. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, is it not typical of the member for St.

Johns to stand up and say we have broken promises but does not outline any of these promises. I have attempted very specifically to answer each and every accusation that he has made, and again, the member is wrong in making these assertions. It is just like the other day when he said to the press: I am surprised to hear that the judges had rejected a Domestic Violence Court. He was surprised when, in fact, a year ago I told him the answer in Question Period. I gave him the answer in committee. Suddenly he is surprised. This is a member who simply does not listen. *

(1355) Point of Order Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I believe Beauchesne's indicates that answers should be brief and to the point and should deal with the subject matter. The minister has the option, as he has chosen, not to answer the question and try to obfuscate. We saw that from the Minister of Health when he blamed and went after and attacked individuals. Now the minister is going back to an incident that occurred a year ago. Perhaps he is embarrassed about it, but he can deal with that in another forum.

I ask you to call him to order to deal with the question asked or not to deal with it but to continue to go on, abuse this Question Period, and Beauchesne's makes it very clear that the minister ought to deal with the subject matter as discussed. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr.

Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I think it is very important to explain to you in making your rulings that it is important that perhaps one of the reasons why the member is not understanding my answers is that he simply does not listen, and I think that is relevant to the questions that are being placed. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, I would agree that the honourable member did have a point of order. I would ask the minister to keep his answer as brief as possible and deal with the question raised. Centra Gas Purchase Purpose Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. Again we see an expenditure, as I have indicated, of a half billion dollars-plus authorized through this particular government, yet this government has still not indicated to this Chamber why it made that particular purchase, why it felt that purchase was necessary. So I am going to give a wonderful, easy question to the Minister of -

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 267 Hydro in hopes that he will be able to give a very specific answer. What is the primary purpose for the purchase of Centra Gas? Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, it was a combination of a variety of reasons that caused this particular transaction to get the support of the government, the final terms of it, of course, still to be finalized.

The approach, having been made by the West Coast president to Manitoba Hydro, the Manitoba Hydro management team and advisers scrutinized very carefully all of the opportunities that were inherent in this particular opportunity, and they concluded, on the basis of examining all of the implications, that this would be in the best interests of the owners of Manitoba Hydro, the people of Manitoba. One of the primary benefits from the integration of the two utilities would be efficiencies would result in $12 million a year, estimated, in terms of savings to the operation.

In addition to that, and probably most significantly, it makes the Manitoba combined utility a competitive force in the North American marketplace. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I ask the minister of Hydro. He now indicates to the House that Centra Gas is the one that approached the government in order to be bought out. Can the minister indicate to this House: was Centra Gas experiencing any problems? Why was it that the government felt obligated then to go ahead and purchase it without any sort of a detailed plan for the future of that particular company in the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Newman: Madam Speaker, it would be presumptuous and inappropriate for me to suggest why Michael Phelps, representing West Coast transmission, the owner of Centra, would approach Manitoba Hydro with a view to presumably trying to benefit to the maximum the shareholders ofWestcoast Energy. *

(1400) What we do know is that through a process of negotiation by the experienced business people on both sides and the professional advisers on both sides they both came to a deal which they thought was in the best interests of each of the utilities. It was seen to be a win-win transaction. I think, with the passage of time, the honourable member for Inkster will probably see the light as well and be able to, when all of the information is released-it will be released in due course-come to the same conclusion that Hydro did and the government of the province of Manitoba. Government Intention Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the minister indicate specifically: is there any indication from this government towards rural Manitobans that by purchasing Centra Gas it is the government's intentions to update and modernize the infrastructure in rural Manitoba? Is that the primary reason why they bought Centra Gas? Hon.

David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, that is a legitimate kind of concern expressed by the honourable member for Inkster, and the quality of the decisions that are going to be made by the integrated utility will probably depend on the degree to which government does not intervene in good business decisions for that corporation. At the moment, however, the public is quite aware in rural Manitoba at least that a great deal of subsidization goes into the development of a distribution infrastructure for natural gas, both federal and provincial money.

Now, with an integrated utility, it is going to be possible to look at what is in the public interest in the long term big picture with both natural gas and hydro transmission being options. But one thing is probable. It makes no sense to have a duplicated infrastructure where it would be an overall waste of limited resources in the province. It would have to be made on business cases in each situation. Capital Investment Spending Decline Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of

268 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 Finance. In past budget documents this government has spoken in glowing terms about increases in capital investment spending, and I agree. Capital investment spending is very vital in terms of future economic growth. But now Statistics Canada has forecast a major decline in total capital spending-that is private and public combined-for Manitoba for 1999, that is a decline of 9.3 percent, ranking Manitoba the second lowest in the country, nine out of 10.

I would like to ask the minister if he could explain to this House why Manitoba is expected to have such a drastic decline in total capital spending investment, and is this an indication of a possible slowdown in the Manitoba economy in the year ahead. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I would have thought perhaps the former minister, the member for Brandon East, would like to celebrate the many good things that are happening across the province.

Manitoba has probably the most diversified economy of all the western provinces, and if he takes a look at a number of the economic indicators, Manitoba is poised to do very well into the next year. Private Sector Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I had asked the question about total capital spending, but in terms of private capital spending, has the minister had any direct indication from the private sector about private investment spending intentions for 1999, because Statistics Canada is forecasting a major drop of 11.9 percent in private capital spending in 1999, again ranking Manitoba nine out of 10 provinces. Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, in my first answer I urged the member to take a look at all of the economic indicators, but if he wants to maybe zero in on development, I would suggest even in Brandon, if he has an opportunity to visit out there sometime soon, that he look at the many hundreds of millions of dollars that have gone into building in Brandon. The Simplot expansion, for instance, was over $200 million. The Maple Leaf expansion, the new plant there that I am sure he celebrates along with us, is $1 12 million.

He can see the private sector development in Brandon with a number of businesses and hotels opening. Certainly the economy looks very rosy in Brandon. Mr. Leonard Evans The honourable minister reminds me of the fact that we did, the Schreyer government did expand the Brandon boundary so that all these developments are truly in the city of Brandon, and I am very pleased about that. Madam Speaker: honourable member, supplementary question. Order, please. to pose his Manufacturing Sector The final Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Again, Madam Speaker, I ask the minister: will he acknowledge that in the manufacturing sector, a 22 percent decline is now forecast by Stats Canada for 1999. Is this not a serious portent of what is going to happen? I am not talking about the past. What about Manitoba in 1999 and the year 2000? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I would hope that perhaps the member would take a little leadership within his caucus. I know the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Sale) are often talking doom and gloom and how terrible things are in this province. I would simply point out that manufacturing shipments were up 7.1 percent in 1998 versus 3. 1 percent for Canada; foreign exports were up 6.2 percent, the ninth consecutive annual increase. Certainly the economy in Manitoba is recognized by many of the forecasters as doing very well. I would urge the member for Brandon East to get a better understanding of those issues. Centra Gas Purchase Legal Representation Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Spea ker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

Yesterday the minister claimed that the lawyer representing W estcoast Energy was not also representing -

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 269 Manitoba Hydro. I would like to table a letter sent by James Foran to the PUB on April 12, in which he said he was asked to forward this letter on behalf of Westcoast Energy and Manitoba Hydro. Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister: has the minister read the Jetter, and if so what is his explanation as to why Manitoba Hydro would be using the same lawyer as Centra Gas prior to the conclusion of negotiations over the sale of Centra Gas to Manitoba Hydro? Hon.

David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, it does not sound like a very good idea to me that they would use the same lawyer to represent them in this important commercial transaction. Whether or not in this particular instance there was a meeting of the minds between some lawyer for Manitoba Hydro and the lawyer for Aikins, MacAulay about sending a letter to the Public Utilities Board, I do not know.

But in light of the persistence of the member opposite on this unimportant issue, I believe I will seek from Manitoba Hydro an explanation as to why Aikins, MacAulay and Thorvaldson, through James Foran, said in the first sentence: "I have been asked to forward this letter on behalf of Westcoast Energy Inc. and Manitoba Hydro." I will find out who made the request and why the request was made, if a request was made. Private Hearings-Manitoba Hydro Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, it is very surprising that the minister finds it an unimportant question.

I would like to ask the minister: can the minister explain why he, as the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, did not know whether Manitoba Hydro was asking for private hearings at the PUB, because it is in the letter? *

(1410) Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, I can simply say that I do not support Manitoba Hydro asking for private hearings. To the extent they are asking specific things of the Public Utilities Board, that was their business decision to make. To the extent that I disagree with that, that is what I am entitled to do as a minister of the Crown. I say for the record, I do not believe that Manitoba Hydro should be asking for private hearings if indeed they did. Mr.

Maloway: Madam Speaker, then to the same minister: will this minister now order Manitoba Hydro to reverse its position and request public hearings? Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, you can rest assured-all members of the Legislature-that this particular position of mine has been communicated to Manitoba Hydro, and they are well aware of it. I would expect that they will make a decision which is going to be respectful of whatever the Public Utilities Board decides in this matter.

My expectations there are irrelevant to this matter, but my hope is that they will respect the fact that the people of Manitoba are the owners of Manitoba Hydro and I, as their representative through the government of the province of Manitoba, would hope that the maximum amount of information without jeopardizing the deal can be made timely available to the people of Manitoba. Farm Aid Program Application Process Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, as farmers get ready to get back on the land and begin spring seeding, they are facing very serious decisions and many may not be able to continue.

There has been an announcement of a Farm Aid Package for some time but the applications just got to Ag offices last week, and now we are told that it is six to eight weeks before the applications can be processed after having filed the claim. This is putting tremendous pressure on farmers. Given that the province has contributed 40 percent of the program, I would like to ask the minister to tell this House why he has allowed this process to drag along so long, why he has allowed the applications to be so complicated,

270 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 why they are tied to NISA and why it is going to take so long to get money to the farmers. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The minister requested, I believe off the record, that the honourable member for Swan River repeat her question, and that is entirely the- An Honourable Member: Can you read newspapers in this House? Madam Speaker: Pardon me? An Honourable Member: He is reading a newspaper. Madam Speaker: -decision of the honourable member for Swan River, and she indica ted she wanted to comply. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, given that this is a very serious matter, I will repeat the question. I am asking the Minister of Agriculture why the process is taking so long. Given that the province contributed 40 percent to a program, can the minister tell this House why he has allowed the process to drag on so long that applications have just been received at agricultural offices? It is going to take eight to I 0 weeks to have them process it, and farmers will not get their money in time to put their crops in the ground this year. Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to respond to that question, and I do apologize to the member for having been momentarily distracted. It is just today that I was getting several letters, including official letters from the Keystone Agricultural Producers organization on that very same subje ct, and I am reading comments to the same effect in the farm press that was preoccupying me. I remind the honourable member that this program was designed and is administrated entirely by Ottawa.

I remind honourable members that I personally and my government were criticized for being one of the last ones to enter the program. There was a reason. We understood that the program had design flaws. It had very complicated administrative fees. I have a letter here that one of our prominent accounting firms-that certainly the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) would be familiar with-Meyers Norris, are estimating that it will cost a farmer between $400 and $925 in accounting fees just to make the application, and the farmer is not guaranteed that he will receive any support.

So, yes, I am distressed with the program. I agree fully with the program that it is unacceptable. Government Input Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, is the Minister of Agriculture telling us that his staff had no

part in designing this program, that the provincial government had no input to the program when they have put 40 percent of the money forward? That is unacceptable. They should be having some input into this program. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Agriculture was not recognized and his comments are not on record, because I could not get the attention of the members of the House so that indeed he could put his comments on the record. Hon.

Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I am indebted to you for reminding me to proceed appropriately in the Chamber. Much to my chagrin and to that of certainly my senior staff members in the Department of Agriculture, and I might say understandably to the Minister of Finance, our own Treasury Board, we were being asked to commit a very substantial amount of money in a Farm Aid Program that we had no hand in designing and in its administration.

It was for that reason that I did get the authority and support from my caucus, from my government to, as an interim measure, introduce a recovery program that has been very well accepted by the farm community. Over $22 million has already flowed in that program. Cash is out in time for seeding. We anticipated the problems in the federal program, and I am pleased to note that this government, with the support of this government, provided that emergency support. -

Apri l 14, 1999 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 271 Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Interlake Regional Health Authority Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, earlier this month it was announced that the Interlake Regional Health Authori ty recei ved accred itation from the Canadian Council on Health Services Accredi tation. This makes the Interlake Regional Health Authority the first regional health authori ty in Manitoba to recei ve recognition from the federal health regulator that national standards are be ing met.

The members of the Interla ke Regional Health Authori ty are a group with innovative ideas who are dedi cated to finding ways to ensure that all components of the health care system best serve the people of the Interlake. As part of thei r ded ication, the regional health authority chose to apply for accr edi tation earlier than most of the other RHAs, while the transition process is to be sure that they were meeti ng national standards from the very beginning.

When the regional health authority system was put in place in 1997, the goal was to achieve better co-ordination of servi ces to improve access and to allow us to make the best use of our health care resources. With this announcement that the regional health authority has rece ived accr edi tation, Manitobans can be assured that the RHA system is working. I am sure that it will not be long before all regional health authorities in Manitoba receive the same recogniti on.

So I would commend all the members of the IRHA and the health care staff in the Interlake region on earning this distinction and for their continued dedi cation to provid ing quality health care through the Interl ake area. Thank you. * (1420) 300th Birthday of the Khalsa Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, today is Apri l 14, the 300th bi rthday of Khalsa and the celebr ation of Sikhs the world over and Si khs here in Manitoba.

I had the honour of attending the flag-raising ceremony today at City Hall, and all of us, of course, have worked with the Sikh community here in Manitoba and have partici pated in the celebr ation of Khalsa and more importantly the principles of Khalsa deali ng with humanity, forg iveness, hope, love, equi ty and racial tolerance. The history of Sikhs in Canada is one that deals with challenges: the saf e passage laws that were in place and where our party federally fought against those laws at the tum of the century and through this century.

Madam Speaker, even up till the early '50s Si khs di d not have the vote in Canada. In fact, our party fought very hard in the late '40s for the vote in Bri tish Columbi a, the former CCF Party, to recognize that people, as members of the Commonwealth, should have the vote in our country. We still have a lot of work as a community to deal with the strengths of our community, the di versi ty of our community, and racism in our community. This, on the celebr ation of the 300th anniversary of Khalsa, we should reded icate ourselves to the principles of tol erance and the pri nciples of understanding.

Thank you very much. Grand Rapids-Fishing Industry Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, many Manitobans are wondering why it is that this government has such an inabil ity or unwilli ngness to negotiate with aboriginal people. This government is willi ng to spend over $500 milli on buying Centra Gas and untold hundreds of milli ons in buying Winnipeg Hydro, but places li ttle priori ty on settl ing issues li ke the fisheri es di spute at Grand Rapids. No one disputes the fact that Grand Rapids Dam seriously damaged the fishi ng industry.

The government admits that the compensation to the town and fishers is due. The majori ty of fishers in this province are based in northern Manitoba, and the Northern Flood treaties recognize the power proje cts in the North which gave this province the cheapest electri city in the western world and damaged traditional fisher y and hunting areas in northern Manitoba. We are told that in the 1992 settlement with the band, it only covered damages to river fish stocks not the depleti on of fish stocks in the lake itself where the vast majori ty of fishi ng occurs.

272 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 Last year, when the House of Commons fishery committee met at Grand Rapids, the seriousness of the situation was laid out. The minister responsible had been asked to meet with the parties involved and ref used. This made the situation at Grand Rapids worse for the residents and is hurting the reputation of Manitoba Hydro across this province. Ignoring the concerns of fishers is not in the interest of anyone. If the minister is not willing to meet with the people of Grand Rapids, then the Premier should step forward and set up a meeting himself .

Frontier College Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, I would just like to extend my congratulations to Frontier Col lege on their 1 OOth anniversary that they held the other night. It was held at the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre where I was very proud to attend. Frontier Col lege has helped many, many people overcome their inabilities to read and write, and I experienced that first-hand when I was the employment counsellor supervisor for the Lime stone Dam.

There was a volunteer from the Frontier Col lege who used to volunteer their time in the evenings, and many of the workers that were working on that dam 12 hours a day were faithful iy going in the evenings to take the upgrad ing to help enable them read and write. I personally value that because my mother, who is 81 years old, cannot read or write, and I remember as a young child accompanying her to the grocery stores where she had labels off soup cans to make sure that she got the right soup that she wanted.

When they had the anniversary for Frontier College, it was also to assist the funding for Be at the Street. Be at the Street is a valuable program that does not look at colour, and its doors are open to anyone who wants to upgrade their reading and writing skills. If you walk into their offices and classrooms, you will see people from all walks of life that are finally getting a chance. It is people and organizations like that that we as citizens of Canada owe gratitude, and hopefully we will always support those kinds of program s to make one's own life and their families lives much be tter anyway we can.

Madam Speaker. Thank you, ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, it gives me great plea sure to make a few comments on the throne speech, but I also am very pleased to be back here in the Legisla ture and have the oppor tunity to debate and bring forward many of the issues that are impor tant to my constituency.

I can recall last fall when farm ers were facing really great difficulties and we had raised the issue and we talked about returning to the Legisla ture. Members opposite, I believe it was the government House leader at that time, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), said there was no reason to return to the Legisla ture because there were not any impor tant issues to discuss. *

(1430) There cert ainly were impor tant issues and there still are impor tant issues, and in particula r I talked today in Question Period about the farm prices, but certainly all the other issues that we faced over the winter and that we still are seeing now with the long waiting li sts that patients are facing and the beds in hallways that we saw this winter. It was a shame that the government did not think that it was important that we return to this Legisla ture to talk about these impor tant issues.

But we are finally back here, and we were anticipating that the government would bring forward a throne speech that would offer some vision about where they were going, and it was quite disappointing when we lis tened to the throne speech and saw that it was very vague -

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 273 and had very li ttle content and only a few new initiatives about how they were planning to deal with the problems and the challenges that we are facing here in this province. Particularly, when I read through this throne speech, I have to say that I was tremendously di sappointed, as were rural Manitobans across the province and northerners, that this government chose not to even mention the word "agriculture" in their budget.

They have talked about a forum where they are going to go out and consult with people, which they did in 1993, and now they have finally realized that there is a problem out there. Now, in 1999, they are going to go back and lis ten to the people again. But to think that a government would not recognize that there is a serious situation and give at least some lip service to the people of rural Manitoba and the farming community that they are recognizing that this is a problem is a di sappointment that it is not mentioned in the throne speech.

I have to say, Madam Speaker, that I am very concerned about the farming community. I am very concerned about the package that has been put forward for farm aid, and I am di sappointed to hear the minister say that his department had no role in developing this package. I cannot believe that provinces would completely tum over things to the federal government to design a package. I just find that quite unacceptable and hard to believe that when you are contributing 40 percent of the cost of the program , you would have no

part in develop ing it. But, Madam Speaker, there are serious problems with the program . The application form is very long, and as the minister indicated in his answer to me, it is quite compli cated. Most people are going to have to have an accountant to fill out the forms, and it is going to be somewhere between $400 and as high as $900 to have this application completed.

I am sure that there could have been an easier way to get these applications together to ensure that the money went to the people who most needed it, and that is the farming community, not into the accountants' hands, as is going to happen now.

But, Madam Speaker, there are other problems with the program , and had I been able to ask my other questions and had not had to repeat my questions, I would have been able to raise with the minister the serious concern that negative margins are not covered in this disa ster program when it comes to payout but that these negative margins are used to calcula te the following year's averages.

By doing this, if you are going to be rolling it into the following year's average, then what we are going to be doing is accelerat ing the reduction of the producers' gross margins and further reduce the payments from the program .

Madam Speaker, the other issue that has been brought to my attention, and one we hear the federal Minister of Agriculture talking about is that this program was developed to be in compl iance with the international trade rules, but even though it was designed this way it did not force the minister to link the agricultural assistance di saster program to NISA, nor did the international trade rules require that the program exclude negative margi ns. So what we have under the current trade rules is that farmers can be supported up to 70 percent of their return and have no problem with international trade rules.

But under this program Canadian farmers will receive far less than this level because of the flaws in the program . What I see happening and what we have heard is that many, many farmers will not qualify , and the whole purpose of the program, which was to get money into the farmers' hands, we will in fact see very few-the numbers I have heard are somewhere in the range of one in eight farmers will qualify. In fact, although we had big announcements by the federal minister of this program, in reality, the people who need the help most are not going to be benefiting.

As I see it, Madam Speaker, and fr om what I have looked at, it looks as though the hog producers are the ones who are going to benefit from the program the most. I think that when we looked at the number of people we have in the hog industry in Manitoba at this time, the difficulties they are facing, I think the minister has to also think about what role his government played in promoting the expansion of the hog industry and what impact the changes that we have had to single-desk selling and the move away from price transparency and what impact all of these have had on the hog industry in this province.

I think we will be looking very

274 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri l 14, 1999 closely when this program starts to pay out where the majori ty of the money is going to go. As I see it right now, I think the majority of this money is going to end up go ing to the people who are in the hog industry. As we look at the throne speech, one of the reasons for the delay of our coming back to the Legi slature was because we had the whole scenario of the Monnin inquiry and the investigation into vote rigging. When we finally got that report, the government was able to come back and deli ver their throne speech.

But I want to take a few minutes and just talk briefly about the Monnin inquiry and the whole vote-rigging scheme. Yesterday the member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) offered me his apologi es for what the Conservative Party did within my constituency, and I thank him for that apology. But I want to also say that I was not the victim in this whole scheme. We have to look really closely at who the victim was. The victims were the aboriginal people, who were taken advantage of and manipulated in this whole scheme. I think we have to think very caref ully about that. Those are the people who have to be apologized to.

The Premi er (Mr. Fi lmon) finally di d apologize to them. After some pressure, he agreed to do that. That is good. I am glad that he apologi zed to those people. What we have to look at-and we have to learn a lesson from this whole scenario that took place-is that we cannot take advantage of the most vulnerable people. What we have to do is involve them in the process, make them feel welcome and invite them in, share their ideas and work at ways that we can help the most needy in this province. Our goal as legi slators and government members should be to try to li ft up the poorest of the poor.

Our goal should not be to try to make the rich get richer. We should be trying to help the poorest of the poor get the tools that they need to play a role in society, help them get an education, ensure that they have proper health care, ensure that they have the tools to raise their children so that the ir chi ldren do not have to be taken away from them and they spend years looking for them and trying to bring them back into their home. *

(1440) There are many, many things that we can do, Madam Speaker, and we should not, as I say, take advantage of them. We hear many negative things about some of our poor people and some of our aboriginal people, but rather than bei ng critical let us work with them. I have taken that step, and I represent many aboriginal people. I visi t thei r communities on a regular basis.

After the boundaries are changed, I will be running in a constituency that has even a larger aboriginal population, and I am very concerned about how these people will make a li ving and how they will be able to contribute to the economy of Manitoba. I think we have to recognize that they were the first people here. They have been through dif ficulties, and we have to work with them. Last night, I attended a dinner with the ambassador from Ukraine to Canada. We had a bit of history about how the Ukrainians came to Canada and the part that they have played.

As I am of Ukrainian descent, I am very proud of the role that Ukrainians have played in this province and what they have done. We have many other members of the Legisla ture here who are also of Ukrainian descent. We can be proud of what our people di d, but we also have to be willi ng to help other people get back what they need and help them to play a role in society. Even if some of these people, the aboriginal people, do not want to take leading roles, our job is to ensure that they have proper housing, they have the opportunity to get an education and that children are properly fed.

Those are the kinds of things that we can do. If we do those kinds of things, we will reduce the poverty in this province, Madam Speaker, and every day we can addre ss that, it will make Manitoba a better place to li ve. Madam Speaker, when I think about it, talked about the aboriginal chi ldren, but it is all of our chi ldren. All the ch ildren in this province are very important. Most parents are trying their best, but many must now overcome the odds with their children. Can you imagine, Manitoba has the highest child poverty rate, the highest teenage pregnancy rate , the highest high school dropout rate . -

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 275 Madam Speaker, we also have the highest rate of children in care, and, not surprisingly, we also have the highest increase in viole nt youth crime since 1990, and we have to question, is this the best we can do for our children, and what does it mean for the future well-being of the province? If we cannot offer better for our child ren, then we know that we are going to be in trouble down the road.

So those are the things we have to think about, but when you look at this government's record on what they have done when it comes to our young chi ldren, it is not very good. Our child care system has been desta biliz ed, and the government has cut public school funding by $500 per pupil. Chil dren's welf are all owance has been cut. Child ren who have been raped or moles ted are on waiting lis ts in our courts for up to two years at a time. I think it is time that we put our children first, that we invest in our chi ldren.

We cannot continue with the path we are on under the Fil mon government, because if we continue on this path of neglecting our child ren, we are going to pay for it dearly down the road. So, Madam Speaker, I would suggest that it is very import ant that we take this opportunity to invest in our chi ldren and ensure that they have the tools and are prepared to carry on and build a healthy economy in this province when their tum comes along. But, of course, we all know that there are poor people. I think that we have to lis ten to some of these poor people and some of the challenges they face.

As I said, I represent many, many poor people. When others have asked young people what it means to be poor, they talk about being teased for the way they are dressed, young child ren who pretend they have forgotten their lunch when they have no food, young child ren who feel ashamed because their parents have no work. Most of all, in a rural area, many times it is young child ren who cannot go on field trips because their families cannot afford it.

So, Madam Speaker, one of the things that has been very neglected in this throne speech, there is no vision of what this province plans to do other than saying that child poverty will be addressed by a round table of Healthy Communities to be Jed by the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) himself . Well, can you imagine, this government has been in place for 11 years now, and now they are going to implement a round table to start talking about child poverty-long overdue, long overdue and something that should have been addressed much before this.

Madam Speaker, the issue of education and what is happening in our schools and the cutbacks that we have seen in education are very, very serious. Alt hough the government likes to sing a good line, saying that they have increased the funding for education, when you look at the real dollars that are going into education, there has been a serious decline. That is why we are seeing child ren using books that are outdated, we are seeing teachers having no prepara tion time, and we are seeing a reduction in the number of courses that are offered for children.

In the rural area, that is quite serious because in the smaller schools every time you cut a teacher you reduce further the opportunities for those chi ldren to get the tools that they need to prepare themselves and take up the challenges that await them. Of course, Madam Speaker, when we talk about schools, one of the topics that always comes up is school taxes. Of course, nobody likes to pay taxes and nobody likes to see their school taxes go up, but school divisions have not had very much choice because school divisions and truste es are committed to educa tion.

When the government reduces their funding, they only have one avenue to get extra money, and that is from the property tax. So the government says, oh, we have not cut funding, but the school boards have to pass the costs on somewhere, so it ends up on taxes. The school boards become the bad guys in the middle of it, but they are the ones who are trying to keep the systems going in spite of the fact that the government continues to cut back on the funding for education. One of the ma jor issues that I have a concern with is certainly this government's commitment and record on health care.

When you look at the government's promises, they certainly have not been kept. In 1995, the government promised to spend $600 million on badly needed personal care homes to ease pressures on hospitals, and this promise was

276 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 trashed just a few months later and the facilities were not built. In my constituency, this government had a promise to do renovations to the Swan River Hospital in 1992, and it was supposed to be ma jor renovations. I remember the then Minister of Health, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), being in Swan River when we opened the personal care home and talking about the renovations to the new facility. Well, very shortly after that, the picture came off the wall, and the renovations did not happen.

Now we have very serious problems in Swan River, where the hospital has been closed due a mould problem, and it is going to be a real inconvenience to the people of the valley for the next few years as the situation is resolved. I want to give credit to the local administration at the hospital and the staff and the board for the tremendous job that they have done over the last little while finding alternate facilities and ensuring that we can continue to provide health care service in the Swan River Valley.

I was very pleased yesterday when the minister gave me his assurance that parents and families would not have to bear the additional transportation costs that are going to be involved in this. They would not be out of pocket additional money, but I must say I was absolutely appalled to hear the minister say that they would not consider waiving the 20 percent to build a new facility when the new facil ity is not coming at the request of the community.

This new facili ty in all likelihood is having to be built because of neglect in repairs in the facili ty, and now to say that the community is going to have to bear the cost of that, raise the money for that 20 percent, is just quite amazing and quite disappointing in this government to say that. *

(1450) I am also very concerned, Madam Speaker, that the government is going to use this as an excuse to downgrade the services. We the people of the Swan River Valley will be watching very closely and will be looking for a commitment from this government that they will not be reducing services, that they, in fact, will be looking at this as an opportunity to enhance services in the Swan River area because we serve a very large area and we should be treated as a regional hospital. So, Madam Speaker, there are some serious questions with regard to the health care facility.

The other health care facili ty in the Swan River constituency is the hospital in Winnipegosi s. Here we have a different problem, and that is a shor tage of doctors. The committee at Winnipegosis has long been trying to get another doctor to Winnipegosis and were quite frustrated when the government came up with the policy that they have to pay $3 ,000 before the government will help them find a doctor. In the meantime, they have told the people at Winnipegosis that they can renovate their facility so that other services can be provided there, but they cannot renovate the facility until they have found a doctor.

So the government is taking money from them to find a doctor but will not allow them money to allow the renovations to go ahead . It is quite foolish and, I think, one that the government could resolve quite easily if they choose to. The long waiting li sts are having an impact on people in my constituency as well. I had a phone call from someone just yesterday who has indicated that he is waiting for a hip replacement, can hardly walk but will probably have to wait for about another year because the waiting lists for hip replacements are so long.

When we look at this throne speech, I was quite amazed at the end of it where the government goes through this whole series of "My government knows it must, and it will," do various things. For example: My government knows that it must, and it will, take action in making our neighbourhoods safer. My government knows it must, and it will, continue to make our health care system accessible and responsive. Well, I ask you, Madam Speaker, where has this government been? They have been the government for 11 years and all of a sudden they recognize that they know and they must and they will do all of these things.

What have they been doing till now? They have not been addr essing the concerns of Manitobans very well.

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 277 I want to just raise another issue. We have been having this discussion on Centra Gas and I could hear the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) talking about bringing Centra Gas to the Swan River Valley. Well, I want to remind him not to bother making that a promise in this election, because they made it in the last election and could not deliver on it. They could not deliver on that promise and the people in the Swan River Valley have a very aggressive committee.

They are now working with the province of Saskatchewan to try to get natural gas. [interje ction] The member from Arthur-Virden says I cannot deliver. He has to remember that it was his government that made the promise and his government that has broken the promise, because they are not delivering and natural gas has not been expanded into the Swan River Valley as they had promised it would. I want to also raise a couple of other issues that were not mentioned in the throne speech but I think that should be mentioned. The government made no mention of our natural resources and how they are managed.

The government surely got egg on their face on how they have handled the whole issue of elk capture , and, thank goodness, they have now lis tened to the pressur e of the community and have agreed not to do further capturing. I hope that the minister will agre e. I hope the minister will lis ten. He said that there will be no more capturing in the Swan River Valley.

I hope that he will live up to that word and, in fact, we will not see any more capturing of elk anywhere and that he will look at some of the recommenda tions that have been put forward by the people of the Swan River Valley for many, many years on how the elk problem can be addressed. There certainly are other ways to handle this issue. There are many things that we have to do and things that can be done much better than the Conservatives have done over the past 11 years. I have talked about the things that have happened within the health care system.

I have talked about the things that have happened in the education system and certainly in what we have seen with our children. We have to work at building new partnerships with aboriginals that make good on the promises of the last decade, including promises: we have to make sure that the AJI report is impleme nted; we have to be sure that issues of health care are addressed. I think that there are ways to work in partnership. We do not have to close the doors. I look at the community of Pine Creek where they presently have just built a nursing station on the reserve.

I think by working together with them, there are surrounding communities that perhaps with a little bit of negotiation that services could be provided at that nursing station to other people who are in Duck Bay and in Camper ville, very close to the nursing station. With that kind of co-operation, things can certainly happen. I want to just mention briefly a couple of other issues. One of them I want to say that has happened, one of the real challenges that we are facing is transportation and railwa y services and the abandonment of rail lines.

I hope that the government would recognize this as a serious problem and help communities in their efforts to save lines. For example, the Cowan subline, a deal has been signed with CN, and that line will be operating, hopef ully. There are other lines that will be required to maintain an infrastructure, but changes have to be made to the Canada Transportation Act. It will take leadership on the part of the government.

I have certainly not heard much from the Minister of Transportation on the government side of the House moving towards improving and calling for changes to the Canada Transportation Act to ensure the short lines can operate. There is much more work to be done in that area, and governments have a role to play in talking to grain companies to see what their plans are. We have to look at ways to ensure that grain companies continue to purchase grain in the rural areas and that all the elevators are not closed down and have us move towards a main line system where most elevators will be closed in the rural areas .

Those are the kinds of challenges we are facing that this government has not addressed. I look forward to having the opportunity to discuss these further when we get to the budget speech, and I look forward to seeing what kind of comm itments the

278 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 government is prepared to make to ensure that we can continue to have a healthy lifestyle in the rural communities. We are going to be dealing with legislation with boundaries, and lots of people talk about parts of their constituency that is going to be leaving, they will no longer be representing. The Swan River constituency does change, but it changes with additions. There is no part of it being taken away. The change in the Swan River constituency will not be the same that other constituencies are facing.

Madam Speaker, before I conclude I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the pages to the Legisla ture. I hope that they find this to be a wonderful experience and a learning experience and hope that we will treat you with respect and you can learn to appreciate the atmosphere here in the House. I want to also welcome the new Sergeant-at-Arms and hope he enjoys his role here in the House. I want to also recognize the past member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) and offer my condolences to his family and say indeed that we will miss him here in the Legis lature.

He brought a certain quality that will be hard to replace, and I want to extend my condolences. Of course, Madam Speaker, one of the changes that we will be seeing in the next Legisla ture is one that we have been calling for for a long time. That of course is an elected Speaker, one that should have been brought in some time ago, but one that we look forward to. So that was one of the announcements that we thought was favourable in the throne speech, one that we feel should have been brought in a long time ago, and look forward to that process when we come back to this Legisla ture.

Not everybody will be coming back to the Legis lature. Some have chosen to retire and some will not come back for other reasons. So I would like to take this opportunity to say to those people who have chosen to leave after the next ele ction that I have enjoyed working with them very much and enjoyed the acquaintances that I have made, and certainly enjoyed the debate that has gone back and forth across the House.

In closing, I must say that this throne speech is certainly a very weak document, one that appears to be a government that is tired of being government, a government that has lost their vision, a government that has just very few initiatives to put on the agenda, and one that shows that they recognize the error of their ways, because they look at all the things that they recognize that they should have done better, and now they are trying to make a commitment that they will be doing it better, but in fact it is time for this government to say that they are out of ideas and give an opportunity for another party to take over at the reigns of this province.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1500) Mr. James Downey (Arthur-Virden): I rise to put some comments on the record, Madam Speaker, and this may or it may not be my last opportunity to speak in this great place. I rise as an extremely proud Canadian and a proud Manitoban. I want to say as well that every time I enter this place, whether it is this Chamber, whether it is walking up the grand staircase, or whether it is driving in of f of Broadway, it gives me a tremendous sense of pride, not only because it is a great place and a magnificent building, but it is the very heart and soul of what our democratic system is all about.

I say to each and every member of this Assembly, regard less of whatever group is trying to bombard or trying to force entry, they do a disservice to this beautif ul place and to the meaning of what this democ ratic debating place is all about. So I challe nge each member, regar dless of their political stripe, to maintain the sanctity of this place, to maintain this place as a place where peacef ul debate, laws and rules can be debated, and the overall policies for the interests of Manitobans and Canada can be truly done so without fear or without favour. I mean that very seriously.

Each and every one of us have the respons ibility to defend this place. If you take that responsibility seriously you will not be playing politics with the kind of activities that we have seen at times here.

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 279 I also want to say, Madam Speaker, that I have had the privilege and I want to thank the many constituents over the years from Arthur and then Arthur-Virden. I have had the privilege with the boundary realignment to serve many communities. I want to genuinely thank those people because they truly have been good to me. They have been good to my wif e, Linda, and to my son, Ryan, and to all our family. I say very genuinely: thank you for being there for us, and we have tried to do our best.

I also want to acknowledge leaders that I have had the opportunity to serve under. Premier Sterling Lyon, who was a tremendous leader of this province and, yes, although one term. put this province back on a path of responsibility, of accountabili ty, and a direction that was to take us into the right way. Of course, the people of Manitoba decided in 1981 that that would not be the case, that they wanted to put their lot with Premier Howard Pawley.

I will make a few comments as it relates to that period of time, but I think the record books clearly show how much this province suffered under the socialist doctrine of-and by the way, one of the current members who is still here is the current Leader of the NDP party, which took this province to its knees, Madam Speaker, took it to its knees. Madam Speaker, I am extr emely proud to be serving with Premier Gary Film on and all of my collea gues over the past many years who have turned this province around.

You know, I have given this speech many times and many times over, and I will say it again, that Premier Fil mon said when he was el ected in 1988, if there is one thing he could change in Manitoba, one thing he could change in Manitoba, he would be pleased, and that was the attitude of the people of Manitoba. You know what, Madam Speaker, he and the caucus coll eagues I have sat with have done that.

We have turned the attitude of the people of Manitoba to one of being very, very positive. and I am proud to have served with every one of my collea gues who have served, those who are no longer with us and those who are here.

Equally, I have been extremely proud to have served on a national level in certain activities, whether it was in internal trade which I co- chaired with a national minister for many years, or whether it was dealing with the lea dership in my time of Agricult ure ministers or in any other, because there is a revolving time when ministers from provinces take the leadership role and chair those events. You have a respo nsibili ty to do things for other parts of Canada which I have been deeply honoured to be part of, this great nation.

I also want to say that I have had a tremendous opportunity, not only at national events but to be part of activities with the prime ministers of Canada and most recently Team Canada, when we toured Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile. To have the Canadian flag and the Canadian national anthem played as you come of f the airplane with your ministers and the business people, I can tell you that is when you brim with pride.

I am absolutely proud to be a part of that activity and to have seen the greatness and the achievements of prime ministers, whether it was John Dief enbaker, who gave the native people the right to vote, Madam Speaker, Progressive Conserva tive, to be part of and to have served with people-yes, I had respect for the manner in which he carried out the government, and I will put it on the record. I did not particularly like his policies and the direction he took Canada, but Pie rre Elliott Trudeau was an extremely strong person.

He took this country where I did not want it to go, but a tremendously powerf ul individual. As was Br ian Mulroney, and, you know, there is a man who today is not held in very high regard, but our trade policies that we have today, we have to say that Brian Mulroney and his government of which many ministers came from western Canada, I acknowledge that there was some good activities done. Yes, my friend Joe Clark, who is still with us and may well, and I say, may well become prime minister again, that I was extremely proud of him. In fact, he was to take this country in the right direction.

Yes, I will say about the current government in Ottawa and the current Prime Minister, they have carried out a Conservative agenda. They truly have done what this country has needed. Yes, they have been hard on us, and I do not accept the fact that they cut our health care and education.

280 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 That has been hard. They could have taken money el sewhere, but they actually have delivered a Conservative agenda to some degree. I have also been pleased to have been at the World Trade Organization meetings where I have seen such leaders, such notable leaders and great world people such as Nelson Mandela, to have heard the Presi dent of the United States and be part of a meeting with Bil l Cl inton. Yes, Fidel Castro was there, and, yes, Tony Blair was there, the current Prime Minister of England.

So, Madam Speaker, I have been privileged, and I have been honoured, to come from southwestern Manitoba, through the democratic system, to have been able to have served my community not only as a representative there in Manitoba but also as part of this great country. So I say thank you to those people.

On the international scene, I have been pleased to have been promoting Manitoba and to sign agreements with other jurisdictions, whether it is Jalisco, Mexico, whether it is Rio Grande do Sui in Brazil, whether it is in Hunan, China, or most recently the agreement that Manitoba signed with Egypt to, for the first time ever, introduce canola products and canola crop to Egypt where there are 62 million people. I am extremely proud to have represented this province and this country to introduce such an impor tant product to them. Madam Speaker, we truly are world class.

The World Junior Hockey tournament that was just held this last year truly put Manitoba-the junior world hockey that was held in Manitoba truly showed that we are world class. The Pan American Games, where there will be a hundred thousand people from the Americas come to play and to mix and to do business, that is world class. I want to also say to the many employees that I have had through my dif ferent times in different departments-in fact, when somebody read out my portfolio list one time, my goodness sakes, they said that it just shows that he cannot hold a job.

Well, that may have been the way it was, but every one of those jobs I felt tremendous dedication to.

But to those people who have had an event in my honour, who worked for government, to those many people who have sent me letters, and Linda, letters of thanks and congratulations and some regrets that I am leaving, others happy that I am leaving, I say thank you because it truly is a great feeling to have the many positive comments. * (1510 ) Now, for the New Democrats, I have a few words for them because I think it is import ant that I leave this place with them feeling just as bad about me, or not liking me as much today as when I came in here, and I will try and make sure that I accomplish that goal with this speech.

Madam Speaker, a particular acknowledge ment to my coll eagues because we have a government, we have elected members that not one in the time that I have been in this House have had to step aside from cabinet because of any question of their integrity or their involvement or what they have done that is untoward, and I am proud as proud can be because of that. Not one. And when the New Democr atic Party can stand up and say that, I think they can be holier than thou, but they cannot. This recent issue, and I regret, I regret terribly that it happened.

I regret it for everyone involved, whether they were victims, whether they were perpetrators or whatever they were; I regret it for everybody's sake, but there was not one dol lar of taxpayers' money put in question, not one dollar of taxpayers' money put in question. I want everyone to pay attention to that, not one dollar. But I can tell you, if you read the history books about the New Democr atic Party, I wi ll tell you a little bit about the New Democr atic Party. I will tell you that the member for Br andon East (Mr. L. Evans) knows all about it.

There were three people that worked for his Crown corpora tion known as McKenzie Seeds, and you know what happened? They got their money mixed up with McKenzie Seeds, and when they took it out, they did not take just their money. They took some of McKenzie Seeds money, which was taxpayers' money. What happened to those people? They went to jail. Did the member for Brandon East, did he say to them : Did you take money from McKenzie Seeds? Did he ask them that question, as they

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 281 are running at the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) saying, did you ask the question? No, he did not ask the question. Do you know what Howard Pawley's answer to it was so that Mr. Evans did not have to answer to the Legisla ture or the public? His answer was not have a commission of inquiry; he shuffled his cabinet so Len Evans did not have to answer to the public. That is the kind of hi story that the NDP leave in this province. Let me show you when Mr. Bucklaschuk was the minister of government autopac, and Mr.

Doer sat in the cabinet, when somebody told somebody that they were going to get rid of Mr. Laufer, was the truth told? Mr. Laufer was the former chairman who recently sued Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and got $2 million. Was there an inquiry as to who told the truth to whom? No, there was not. Should there have been? There may still should be. Madam Speaker, that is the New Democrats. Let me take you to another area where in fact it was proven that a representative of the New Democrats did lie.

We had the Tritschler report where Cass-Beggs was taken before a commission of inquiry and it was proved that he lied to the committee of the Manitoba Legisla ture, and it cost the taxpayers mil lions of dol lars to build Jenpeg in the wrong place at the expense of the taxpayers of Manitoba. Those are the people that lied to the people of Manitoba, and it cost us and it cost us dearly for the purposes of their staying in office, not to get to the truth, but it was for them fixing their own way in life, not in the interests of the people of Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, you know, there was an interesting arti cle in the Free Press recently where a couple of people signed it. I will just make a quick quote of it: "If the Free Press editors want to go after election rigging, they should look to their mentors, the NDP and the unions. Everyone knows (except, obviously, the Free Press) that in every civic election the New Democratic Party help to finance 'independent' left-wing candidate s." Those are not my words, that is signed by two people and it is in a public document. So you know they are very fast to throw stones when they live in glass houses.

Let he or she without sin throw the first stone. Well, they have thrown a lot of stones, and you know what, Madam Speaker, it may just come back on them, it may just start coming back on them. So I apologize to the individuals if I have hurt their feelings, but I honestly believe for the new members and all those members here they should hear the kinds of people who are so holy telling us how great they are and they have never made a mistake. I also think it is important to note that this place is a place where greatness emanates from.

Let me tell you a little bit about the great ness of some of the people, and one cannot pass by a former Premier, Duff Roblin, who it has been demonstrated time and time again how impor tant his vision was for this province, to build the floodway, to build the Asessippi Dam to put a reserve of water for Brandon and Portage and all of those communities as they grow and develop, to save the city of Winnipeg when we have had the devastation of floods, to have the vision to build the hydro power system, which is generating the tremendous wealth for this country in having the lowest power rate s, to introduce, yes, a Crown corporation known as Crop Insurance, of which the NDP believe that they are the only ones who believe in Crown corpora tions, and the credit corpora tion which is also a Crown corpora tion, implem ented by Conservative governments.

They do not have a monopoly on socialism, but when it is the right thing to do, our governments have done it. Madam Speaker, Premier Sterling Lyon, tremendous leader, but unfortunately there were some unfortunate stories told that we were going to sell Hydro, that we were going to do all kinds of things. We were going to develop a potash mine; we were going to have 800 jobs in an aluminum smelter; and we would have had a national power grid by now looking after the needs of the people of this country, but Howard Pawley and the NDP got in and were going to do it better.

They blew the best opportunities that this country has ever seen. Now, let us come to our current Premier (Mr. Fil mon), who I have a tremendous amount of respect and high regard for, who has the stamina, who has the vision, and who has taken

282 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 this province even a better di stance down the road of getting to prosperity. Let us deal with some of the native issues, whether it is the settling of land claims, whether it is the Northern Flood Agreement, whether it is the North Central Hydro, whether it is the $20 million that went into the Grand Rapids forebay, of which, by the way, the NDP said: legally, we do not have to do it.

But our Premier came along with a compassionate government and said: we will make some settlements with those people. [interje ction] Yes, Madam Speaker, we are extremely proud; a Premier who led and saved how many thousands of people when we had the worst forest fires that this province has seen. We evacuated thousands of people. A flood that this province has not seen in over a hundred years, again, evacuated and saved every lif e because of the direction and the team of people who put forward their ef forts.

Went through the worst recession and still maintained and increased the budget for our health care system. I am proud. I am extremely proud, and that is what this place is all about-philosophical debate. I have not heard a strong phil osophical debate come from the opposition members in a long time. I have not heard them stand up and give a strong philo sophical approach .

One of the best things that has happened to this province is that we have put in law the balancing of the budget, and to put this govern ment, to put this province on a sound footing where the people know that we are not going to run into terrible deficits, that we will not have a tax increase without the support of the people and that our debt will be paid off so that some day, Madam Speaker, your chi ldren and your grandchildren will not have to pay a sales tax, that there will not be the kind of tax burden that the NDP would have you and me and our children bear. That is the kind of future that I see.

That is the kind of vision that this Premier and this government and my col leagues running in the election will have, that some day we will cast off the burden of taxation as we have known it in the past. *

(1520) To have sold Manitoba Telephone System is absolutely the right thing to do. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) kept berating me, that I had not been lis tening to my constituents, that they did not want to sell Manitoba Telephone System. I dare say, I did not have but one or two calls. He would traipse through my riding and come out with a handful of people saying that I am in trouble, I am in trouble, because I was selling MTS. Our Conservative government developed the Manitoba Telephone System.

A Conservative government did the right thing to do that to provide service throughout this country, and it did the right thing to sell it because 70 percent of the business was going to be in competition with the private sector. We did not need to be in the private sector competing with our telephone system, as it is so right that our Hydro Board and our Hydro management decided to buy Centra Gas. Now I think it is time the New Democr atic Leader (Mr. Doer) stood up and said he is either for it or he is against it. The member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) will be in a lot of trouble in the next election because she has never once put in writing a request for gas for Swan River, but they will get gas, I believe, with the hydro system being part of it, far more than they ever would have with Centra Gas. I believe that commitment can be made for this next election without question, and they will get what they need. Madam Speaker, who is telling the truth in the New Democr atic Party? They talk about truth and who is not telling the truth.

Is the New Democratic Party Lea der telling the truth when he says that he is not going to sell Manitoba Telephone System or is the member for Thompson who berated and belittled and churned at the last session of the Legisla ture when we sold it? He delayed this House . He frothed at the mouth, and he said: no question, we will buy back the Manitoba Telephone System. Whose policy do the people of Manitoba lis ten to? Are they going to come clean in an election campaign and stand up and say we are going to sell it or we are going to keep it? You know, Mr.

Doer-! am sorry-the member for Concordia better come cl ean as well, as it relates to the buying of the gas company. He says from his seat today, oh, we are in agre ement with the sale, but you paid too much for it. He also said

April l4 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 283 calf to me means you made a pretty good deal and you have a hydro system that is worth more. That is not making a bad deal. That is making a dam good deal . I ask the Libe ral Party, what is left of them, Madam Speaker, if they will come clean as to why they do not want us to purchase Centra. [interje ction] Absolutely. It will lower the cost for the consumers of gas. It will provide opportunities for gasification of communities that have been denied it for years and years and years. It is absolutely the right thing to do.

I want to talk a little bit about the future, because that is what it is all about. Our throne speech clearly spelled out where this province was, where it is at, and where it is going. And you know what? I heard that from the Progressive Conservative Party. I have not heard anything from the New Democr atic Party. They are banking on one and one issue alone, and that is that we are for some reason going to be held or put down because of the Monnin inquiry. I am sorry, you never gain support in a society by tearing down your opponent.

The last time I checked, you get support by building up your own strengths. [i nterje ction] The member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) for some reason has something to say, being a former teacher. It is interesting to note that under his administration Flin Flon had a four year lif e span any time that I can remember. Today, Flin Flon mine and smelter, after some $200 million-and-some by the private sector and the province-and I have never heard him say thank you-will now show a 12-year lif e span for the young people of Flin Flon. Madam Speaker, what about the future?

Let us first of all go to the Boundaries Commission that reported that for the first time, I believe, in three reviews of our boundaries we do not lose a rural or northern boundary. The policies of this government on diversifi cation and decentralization have worked. We have stabil ized our communities. We have got the wealth creation di stributed evenly throughout the province, and I am proud to be part of a government to see that happen.

Yes, we have a greater rural population, and, yes, to introduce a lower tax commission to better find ways that we can help those taxpayers is a tremendous move to look at how we can better be competitive on a global basis because that is where our competition is; it is global. I think it is also important to note in the future that the groundwork has been laid. The groundwork has been laid. We will have a more efficie nt government. We will have a government that continues to put the taxpayers first. Health care : I want to talk for a minute about health care because we continue to hear about health care.

Fi rst, the quality of food, and I take my hat off to anybody who works in a hospital, anybody who goes to a hospital or has anything to do with it because the only reason you go is because you need their services. Madam Speaker, I was in the Health Sciences Centre and I was looked after, but I cannot tell you that I can rave about the food that they currently had. In fact, a lot of people who are complaining about the new food system, they are still on the old food system. This food issue is a bogus argument. It is a labour issue.

It is nothing to do with food; it is a labour issue, and let us call a spade a spade. Madam Speaker, I ask the member for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans), I ask the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) to check in their hospitals because you know what they have now? They have dialysis machines put there not by an NDP government, by a Conservative government to provide services to those people, and I just happened to note that there is a little problem in health care in Saskatchewan recently. That is an NDP government, those of the saviour.

I am not sure whether the New Democrats are going to go and campaign for the government or for the workers. They will have a dilemma. But here is a headline: More hospital doors may close in rural Saskatchewan. That is February of this year. I checked, the last time it was a New Democr atic government. Madam Speaker, let us talk about education because I think we should put education in perspective. The member for W olseley (Ms. Friesen), she is a great expert on education. I think that we should put it in this context. Get on a 747 airplane.

I think the member should do that and when she is sitting on the airpla ne ready

284 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 14, 1999 to take off, the captain of the plane comes on and says: Hi, welcome to my airplane. By the way, I am a product of the New Democratic Party education system in Manitoba and I got through my Grade 12. Yes, I got through my Grade 12; I actually could only do Grade 10 math. Nobody tested me, though. Nobody tested me but I got through and I am proud of it. I actually got through my airplane pilot's training because I was a good person, and because they did not want to hold anybody back and make anybody feel bad, I got my pilot's licence.

By the way, we are taking off through clouds, and I may have to do some mathematical calculations. By the way, have a nice trip. You see, that is what testing means. It means at the end of day, when people come out, they are qualified to do things. How would you like to go in for an operation and the doctor said, I went through the NDP system; I have got Grade 12, but I can only cut your tonsils out with a Grade 10 education? How would you like that? That is the NDP way, ladies and gentlemen. Those are the policies that they stand for.

We stand for people who have got qualities to present in the world in a global market, Madam Speaker. We do not want to water down the people that we produce. Madam Speaker, the lowest unemployment in all of Canada, the lowest youth unemploy ment in all of Canada because the policies that Premier Fil mon and this government put in place got Manitobans working. I have to talk a little bit about marketing because I have been known to do that. In one of my first speeches here I got into a lot of doo-doo because of a comment I made, but it was a true comment then and it is a true comment today. *

(1530) We have just seen, ladies and gentlemen, my col leagues, the biggest announcement recently of over one hundred and some million dol lars being invested in Brandon for a hog plant that will create some 2,200 jobs. Do you know, Madam Speaker, that if the New Democratic Party were in office that would not be built? Fi rst of all, we had to make a change in the marketing of hogs policy where the producers could sell to whom they wanted to, they did not have to go through a single desk. [interje ction] Yes, and the NDP voted against it.

Today, we have got a group of producers who want to produce from durum wheat durum flour in southwestern Manitoba. Do you know what? They cannot do it. The Canadian Wheat Board disallows them to do it because you have to pay the same price as you would pay for the wheat if it got to Toronto. How does that create jobs on the Pr airies? It ships jobs down the rail lines. Madam Speaker, the New Democratic Party continue to argue and argue that we should not have open marketing, dual marketing for Wheat Board grains. I say save the Wheat Board. Pay a nickel a bushel for the operating costs.

Pay another nickel a bushel to promote wheat internationally, but let the farmers do what they want with their grain. Go to a flour mill, go to the world market, but let them do their thing because if they do not, the Canadian Wheat Board will destroy itse lf. Canola is outside of the Wheat Board. We now produce more wealth in canola and more canola crushing plants than we ever have of wheat. Canola has saved the farm and it is not marketed by a marketing agency. Madam Speaker, I ask the members opposite to take off their blinders.

I tell the members opposite to come to the real world because that is where we are at. I have a vision as well for this province. believe strongly that the water systems, the excessive water that drains through this province in the spring of the year has to be captured, has to be put behind structure s, has to be saved for the agronomic purposes of this country, for the domestic purposes and for the industrial purposes, and, yes, for more hydro purposes. Because I also belie ve it is time that we looked at starting up the Conawapa dam. The world will need to have the electrical energy.

Madam Speaker, I could talk about being the Canadian, the North American centre for bus manufacturing, for the garment industry, for the food industry, for the furniture industry, for the

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 285 call centre industry, for the high-tech industry. We have it all right here. We have capital developmen t taking place, giving people the tools to invest, to create jobs so those jobs can pay for the education and the health care needs of those people of our prov ince. I can tell you without any question that our manufacturing sector will continue to grow and expand and explode and provide opportunities. We are adding value to almost everything except those things that come under government control, again, like the Canadian Wheat Board and that product.

Madam Speaker, it is time that we truly started thinking global ly all across the map. Dams for agriculture and domestic purposes, for storage of water, yes, for use in elec tricity. We are entering the new mil lennium. We are entering the new mille nnium which is a very impor tant time. It is a very impor tant time for our young people. I say to the young people of our province, by the way, who have never had the opportunity to experience what a New Democr atic Party can do to your province, it has not been that long ago that we have seen the devastation that took place in Ontario.

Madam Speaker, we are curre ntly seeing the devastation that is taking place in Br itish Columbia. In fact, for the member for Br andon East (Mr. L. Evans), I am extremely proud to report to him today, and this has been his big problem, that we now have virtually reversed the out-migration of the people from Manitoba. Ten years ago we saw 10,000 people moving. Today it has virtually gone to 2,000, if not less. Yes, we had a blip in 1996, which his friends in Statistics Canada cannot explain, but we have actually reversed it. Hon. Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): People from British Columbia are coming back.

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, my col league the Minister of Agricultu re, whom I have had the privilege of sitting with for many years and he will be here when I come back, I am sure, I want to say that we believe strongly that it is time to go and encourage those young people who have left to come back because there are jobs here. My last while in the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Tourism, the bi ggest chall enge that I had and the current minister will have the same, is the finding of people to fill the jobs that we have.

Have we ever heard the New Democr atic Party stand up and say, we have done a good job on creating jobs? Have they ever given credit for anything? Do they honestly believe that what they are trying to push on the people of Manitoba actually will sel l? Well, I hope they continue. I hope they continue to push hard because the harder they push, the more [interje ction] Well, I will not go there, where the Liberals are going to go.

Madam Speaker, I will conclude my remarks by putting on the record, again, a thank you to my wif e, Li nda, and son, Ryan, who have hung with me and who have been part of the team, to my constituents who have been very good to me and to our family who have been there, to my parents and to my wif e's parents and all our families. It has been an exciting time. It has been sometimes a little trying but not very often, but particularly to my col leagues who are continuing in politics and in doing what is extre mely honourable.

I say that from the bottom of my heart to people who have dedi cated their lives and will continue to dedicate their lives. You are here because the people of Manitoba need you. You are here because the people of Canada need you. Take this province into the next mille nnium, because the people of Manitoba, I believe, want to vote for you. I will do everything I can to help make that happen.

I will do whatever I can in the future to make sure that this province and particularly the young people have the opportunities that I have had without fear or favour of anyone putting them down, because of either a philos ophical or some instrument that does not allow them to match or to meet their full potential. It is a great province. It is a great country. I have had an extremely impor tant privil ege to serve, and I thank you and all my coll eagues. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): It is with rapt attention I li sten to the member for Arthur Virden (Mr.

Downey) describing a Manitoba that I did not recognize. Nonetheless, Madam Speaker, I am aware he gave a very impassio ned

286 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 speech, and I do give him credit for his long years of service. I guess I wanted to simply say the phrase that kept running in my mind is, a good man fallen among ultra-conservatives. I am pleased, Madam Speaker, to have the opportunity to put a few words on record in response to the government's Speech from the Throne. I welcome back all honourable members, and I am especially saddened by the fact that one of our honourable members is not here. One of our honourable members has passed on, Mr. Neil Gaudry . This leaves a void in this Chamber. Mr.

Gaudry sat to my immedia te left over the last few years. I got to know him quite well on a very informal level, I am sure, but on a daily basis. We shared many jokes and comments as the speeches got boring at times, and I got to know Neil on a human level. We did not always agree, and he got terri bly mad at me when I said something rash about the Li beral lea der once. I regret having said that because sometimes I do say things I am sometimes sorry for. I wish Mrs. Gaudry, Leona, well. I extend my sympathy and condolences of that of my family to her and her family. We know in Mr.

Gaudry we have lost a strong Francophone voice and a strong representa tive for St. Boniface. As well, I am plea sed to see a new Li eutenant Governor, Mr. Peter Lib a, read the Speech from the Throne. I wish him well. As well, I wish to welcome the new Sergeant-at Arms, and I also welcome the new pages. I notice today we have a new one. I am glad that they are here, and I hope it is a learning experience for them. I do not particularly care if the group is gender-balanced or not. Perhaps I should care, but they seem to be a very good group. *

(1540) Finally, my best wishes go to those in this Chamber who are not seeking re-election, including the member for Ar thur-Virden (Mr. Downey) who I know is a strongly committed person to his ideals and his ideolo gy, as we are committed to our beli ef s as well. Sometimes I get li ttle hot-headed when I hear him say those kinds of things about us, but I try to say let us keep the tempers down. This also includes the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey) who apparently is not going to run again, and the member for Springfield (Mr. Findlay), and the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger).

The member for Springfield (Mr. Fi ndlay) especially, the former Minister of Hi ghways and Transportation, I am really going to miss because I di d come to, I guess the word is, enjoy-I suppose it is kind of a sadistic enjoyment-Estimates, but I certainly did look forward to dealing in Estimates with the former Minister of Highways. He will no longer be there, and I guess that familia rity will be gone. I am going to miss it and I am going to miss him. I wish him well in his new career. He has done an outstanding job for the people of Manitoba. I know he is a man whom I deeply respect.

Also, Madam Speaker, I was struck the other day by the farewe ll speech from the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger). I thought it was a particularly strong speech from the heart, rising above basically the ideologies of this Chamber, and I think I learned an awful lot of things from that particular speech. He put things in an historical context. I was fascinated by that context. I had never real ized over the last two decades how much things have changed in this Chamber. I mean I did not know that at one point somebody tried to table a dead pigeon.

I did not know that at one point in this Chamber people used to call in the pages to bring in ashtrays after the session and smoke. I did not know that at the end of the session they would roll up their Hansards, tape them shut and throw them at each other, nor did I know that in 1977 the wage for an MLA was $8,200, so things have changed. I found the speech from the member for Stei nbach most forthright. I thought to myself , why is it that you have to retire before you really speak from the heart? Could we not do this a li ttle earlier?

In fact, I could not help but notice that when the member for Steinbach spoke from the heart, honestly and fairly, trea ting us all as honourable members, that it was in sharp contrast to what I felt was the content of the throne speech. I am sad to say that but that is how I felt. In the 17 pages of that document which took the Li eutenant Governor approximately half an

April 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 287 hour to read, I only found one ref erence to northern Manitoba. Those are the people whom I represent in one particular riding and the people whom I feel responsible for or resp onsible to, and I was disappointed by that. I will read that one ref erence. On page 12, paragraph 3: My government also remai ns committed to working with Br andon and Manitoba's rural and northern communities to find ways to make our rural economy flourish. There is nothing wrong with that as a statement, but that is the only time northern communities are even mentioned.

They were mentioned sort of in passing, and they were mentioned in conjunction with Brandon as if Brandon were an afterthought, as if rural communities were an after-afterthought and northern communities were an after-after afterthought. I think that kind of bothers us because in the North we have become used to the benign neglect of the Tory party. I am not sure if that is due to voting behaviour or something else, but we have become used to it. So it does not surprise us that we have been shortchanged or given short shrift in this particular throne speech. As the member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) pointed out about the throne speech as well, it seemed to be based on Tory polling results. So I guess we could refer to it as the Angus Reid throne speech. Now they do indeed mention Winnipeg and they mention the Capital Region in quite a few number of pages, but they do not mention specifica lly northern Manitoba. Madam Speaker, we know, as I said before, the member for Transcona has pointed out that the Angus Reid poll that the Tories obvious ly commissioned was used to craft this throne speech.

I guess their spin doctors then came up with a document called a throne speech, which is supposed to create no annoyance to anybody because I think we pointed out-well, at least four years ago roughly-that we knew what the agenda would be: squeeze the people of Manitoba, get the slush fund out there, use it just before the election. This is indeed unfoldi ng exactly as it is. As well, Madam Speaker, reading the throne speech, I notice a lot of rheto rical devices. I will just quote one of them that was repeated over and over again: "My government knows it must, and it will," et cetera.

That was used over and over again. That, of course, conveniently puts things into the future: "and it will,"-it has not happened yet-conveniently after the election. So it is highly likely that this Angus Reid poll does reflect what the government knows, that northern Manitobans do not have to be given much attention to because they are angry with this government. They are cynical about this government. They are not going to vote in large numbers for this government. [interje ction] The honourable member says we are not going to be so sure of that. Well, we will have to see in the election , Madam Speaker.

I am only guessing. All I know is that northern Manitoba got short shrift in this docum ent, and we are tired of being treated as second-class citizens. Every Manitoban, I believe, knows that the Golden Boy points north, and we know the reason why it points north, because we know that the economic potential of this province can best be realized, or can largely be realized, in the future in northern Manitoba. This is not to denigrate the capital are a of southern Manitoba, but we do know that the North is underde veloped. That is where economic development should be focused.

For sure, that is where not only mining but tourism should be focused, and that is not happening. Traditionally, that is where the fish and the fur came from. It headed south. That is where the minerals are coming from, and they are heading south. That is where the hydro power is coming from, and it is heading south. That is where the VL T revenues also come from, and they are heading south, and the taxes and so on. It is the North that needs to be developed.

That is where the tourism should focus, especially ecotourism, and it should be done in conjunction with aboriginal people because the fact is that these are the poorest of the poor. The fact is that there is high unemployment on reserves. The fact is that there are some serious health problems on reserves, and these people need a break. In order to unlock the wealth in northern Manitoba, we need to work together in conjunction with aboriginal people much more

288 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 1999 than we are doing right now. In fact, right now we are not even including their unemployed people in our statistics. It is a di sgrace. It is true, Madam Speaker, that in the North some of the wealth has been unlocked, but northerners, by and large, do not share in that wealth. The minerals, as I have said before , go south; the wood goes south; the pulp, the paper, the taxes, the VL T revenue s. And what do northerners get back? We feel that we are providing the banquet and we are getting back a few crumbs.

I know honourable members di sagree with that, but talk to the majority of northerners, that is their point of view, and I share that. Madam Speaker, this throne speech lacks vision, and when there is no vision, the people perish. We know that. Entire regions of northern Manitoba are at risk right now, particularly that Leaf Rapids-Lynn Lake region. I am talking about basic things, basic infrastructure, roads, railroads, airports, towns that are in the process of dying, and I am not sure whether this government cares or is going to do anything about it. It has not done very much so far.

I would also point out, Madam Speaker, that it was the Schreyer government and to some degree the Pawley government that built the northern roads and the northern airports and did focus on the North, the direction the Golden Boy points. I am serious when I talk about an entire region being at risk. Our mining sector is facing great difficulties, and as yet we have not taken any real steps to remedy that situation, unlike Saskatchewan which is taking some drastic measures to try and revive the mining sector. We take a look at Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake, and what do we see?

We see a railr oad that was going to be abandoned by CN a few years ago because the federal Liberals on July 1, 19 96, decided by the Transportation Act that CN could walk away from such a line. So Lynn Lake was being hamstrung in that sector. The feds were dumping the airport on the small town, a town that has lost three-quarters of its population over the last 20 years. The province will not fix 39 1. So what are we supposed to do? The roads are not fixed; the rail road was for sale; the airport is being downloaded. I mean, that is not supporting northern communities.

I do not care, Madam Speaker, if this ideological or not, the simple fact is we were ignoring that region. One thing leads to another; there is a domino ef fect. So the infrastructure in the North needs to be upgraded. It is not being upgraded right now. Madam Speaker, it took us a long time and it took a coalition of northerners to make sure that the railroad was not sold, that the Sherridon line is still functioning, but that was a tough battle. But Lynn Lake is not out of the woods by any means, and I will give you an example of something that happened not too terri bly long ago.

I was in Lynn Lake last spring with Lome Nystrom, a federal M.P ., and also Bev Desjarlais, the federal M.P . for the Chur chill area of which Flin Flon is part. We talked to the people about the fact that they did not have proper banking because the one bank in town had moved out after being there for 50 years. The people were angry. They were saying how can we sustain any kind of economic developmen t when we do not even have a bank to go to. We could not even get that particular bank to put in an automated teller machine.

Eventually they did, but it took quite a battle. * (155 0) Can you imagine a community that has no bank? What do the tourists do, because the nearest other town is a hundred kilometres away over some very, very rough roads. What do the businesses do, the citizens who have mortgages? In fact, in the case of Lynn Lake, we have NA

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aca0e0ccfa9516e4cfe08df874652297914c9be7

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).