20250506pm Hansard n57

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 43rd Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday, May 6, 2025 Afternoon Sitting Issue No. 57 THE HONOURABLE RAJ CHOUHAN, SPEAKER ISSN 1499-2175

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Wendy Cocchia, CM, OBC First Session, 43rd Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Raj Chouhan EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ................................................................................................... Hon. David Eby, KC Minister of State for Local Governments and Rural Communities .......................................................... Hon.

Brittny Anderson Minister of Agriculture and Food ..............................................................................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Attorney General and Deputy Premier ............................................................................................................... Hon. Niki Sharma, KC Minister of Children and Family Development ......................................................................................................Hon.

Jodie Wickens Minister of Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. George Chow Minister of Education and Child Care ............................................................................................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Minister of Emergency Management and Climate Readiness ................................................................................ Hon.

Kelly Greene Minister of Energy and Climate Solutions .................................................................................................................... Hon. Adrian Dix Minister of Environment and Parks .................................................................................................... Hon. Laanas / Tamara Davidson Minister of Finance ......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Brenda Bailey Minister of Forests .......................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Ravi Parmar Minister of Health ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Josie Osborne Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs ................................................................................................................ Hon.

Ravi Kahlon Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ..........................................................................................Hon. Christine Boyle Minister of Infrastructure .............................................................................................................................................. Hon. Bowinn Ma Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Innovation ....................................................................................Hon.

Diana Gibson Minister of State for Trade ...................................................................................................................................... Hon. Rick Glumac Minister of Labour .............................................................................................................................................. Hon. Jennifer Whiteside Minister of Mining and Critical Minerals .....................................................................................................................Hon.

Jagrup Brar Minister of Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills ........................................................................................... Hon. Anne Kang Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...........................................................................................................Hon. Garry Begg Minister of State for Community Safety and Integrated Services ........................................................................ Hon.

Terry Yung Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction ...............................................................................Hon. Sheila Malcolmson Minister of Tourism, Arts, Culture and Sport ....................................................................................Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert Minister of Transportation and Transit ................................................................................................................ Hon.

Mike Farnworth Minister of Water, Land and Resource Stewardship ............................................................................................... Hon. Randene Neill Minister Without Portfolio ..............................................................................................................................................Hon. Grace Lore LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition ..........................................................................................................................................

John Rustad Leader of the Third Party .................................................................................................................................................Jeremy Valeriote Deputy Speaker ......................................................................................................................................................................

Mable Elmore Assistant Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................Lorne Doerkson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ......................................................................................................................George Anderson Clerk of the Legislative Assembly....................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel ......................................................................................................................Seunghee Suzie Seo Deputy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...............................................................................................................

Artour Sogomonian Clerk of Committees .............................................................................................................................................................. Jennifer Arril Committee Clerk ......................................................................................................................................................................

Karan Riarh Committee Clerk .........................................................................................................................................................................Darryl Hol Senior Legal Counsel .................................................................................................................................................................Hayley Hill Sergeant-at-Arms ..................................................................................................................................................................

Ray Robitaille Director of Hansard Services .......................................................................................................................................D’ Arcy McPherson Legislative Librarian ...............................................................................................................................................................Peter Gourlay

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS BY PARTY BC NDP Anderson, Hon. Brittny ........................................... Kootenay Central Anderson, George ................................................ Nanaimo-Lantzville Arora, Rohini ....................................................................Burnaby East Bailey, Hon. Brenda ................................Vancouver–South Granville Beare, Hon. Lisa .......................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Begg, Hon.

Garry .......................................................Surrey-Guildford Blatherwick, Jennifer ....................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Boyle, Hon. Christine .............................Vancouver–Little Mountain Brar, Hon. Jagrup ......................................................Surrey-Fleetwood Chandra Herbert, Hon. Spencer ..................... Vancouver–West End Chant, Susie ............................................. North Vancouver–Seymour Choi, Paul ..................................................Burnaby South–Metrotown Chouhan, Hon. Raj .................................

Burnaby–New Westminster Chow, Hon. George ..........................................Vancouver-Fraserview Davidson, Hon. Tamara / Laanas ...........North Coast–Haida Gwaii Dhir, Sunita .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Dix, Hon. Adrian .................................................. Vancouver-Renfrew Eby, Hon. David, KC ....................................... Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable ................................................. Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Hon. Mike .................................................Port Coquitlam Gibson, Hon.

Diana ........................................Oak Bay–Gordon Head Glumac, Hon. Rick ...................................... Port Moody–Burquitlam Greene, Hon. Kelly ..............................................Richmond-Steveston Higginson, Stephanie ........................................Ladysmith-Oceanside Kahlon, Hon. Ravi .............................................................. Delta North Kang, Hon. Anne .........................................................

Burnaby Centre Krieger, Nina .........................................................Victoria–Swan Lake Lajeunesse, Dana ..............................................Juan de Fuca–Malahat Lore, Hon. Grace .................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Ma, Hon. Bowinn ................................... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Malcolmson, Hon. Sheila .........................Nanaimo–Gabriola Island Morissette, Steve ...................................................Kootenay Monashee Neill, Hon. Randene ............................ Powell River–Sunshine Coast Osborne, Hon.

Josie .........................................Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Parmar, Hon. Ravi ...............................................Langford-Highlands Phillip, Joan / Amshen .....................................Vancouver-Strathcona Popham, Hon. Lana ........................................................ Saanich South Rotchford, Darlene ...............................................Esquimalt-Colwood Routledge, Janet .............................................................Burnaby North Sandhu, Harwinder ......................................................

Vernon-Lumby Shah, Amna ............................................................. Surrey City Centre Sharma, Hon. Niki, KC ....................................... Vancouver-Hastings Sunner, Jessie ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Toporowski, Debra / Qwulti’stunaat .......................Cowichan Valley Whiteside, Hon. Jennifer ...................New Westminster–Coquitlam Wickens, Hon. Jodie ............................. Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Yung, Hon.

Terry .................................................Vancouver-Yaletown CONSERV ATIVE PARTY OF BC Banman, Bruce .......................................................... Abbotsford South Bhangu, Harman .................................................. Langley-Abbotsford Bird, Rosalyn .............................................

Prince George–Valemount Block, Lynne ..............................................West Vancouver–Capilano Boultbee, Amelia .............................................Penticton-Summerland Chan, Hon ..................................................................Richmond Centre Chapman, Brent .................................................................Surrey South Clare, Sheldon ....................................

Prince George–North Cariboo Davis, Pete ..................................................................Kootenay Rockies Day, Brennan ........................................................... Courtenay-Comox Dew, Gavin ..................................................................Kelowna-Mission Dhaliwal, Mandeep .......................................................... Surrey North Doerkson, Lorne .....................................................

Cariboo-Chilcotin Gasper, Reann .......................................................Abbotsford-Mission Giddens, Kiel ..............................................Prince George–Mackenzie Halford, Trevor ......................................................Surrey–White Rock Hartwell, Sharon ..............................................Bulkley Valley–Stikine Hepner, Linda ................................................Surrey–Serpentine River Kindy, Anna ........................................................................North Island Kooner, Steve ............................................Richmond-Queensborough Loewen, Kristina ..........................................................

Kelowna Centre Luck, Tony ..........................................................................Fraser-Nicola Maahs, Heather ......................................................... Chilliwack North McCall, Macklin .........................................West Kelowna–Peachland McInnis, Scott ......................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke Milobar, Peter ............................................................

Kamloops Centre Mok, Lawrence ...........................................................Maple Ridge East Neufeld, Korky ............................................................Abbotsford West Neufeld, Larry ...........................................................Peace River South Paton, Ian ..............................................................................Delta South Rattée, Claire .................................................................................Skeena Rustad, John ...................................................................Nechako Lakes Stamer, Ward .........................................Kamloops–North Thompson Sturko, Elenore .........................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Tepper, Br yan ............................................................

Surrey-Panorama Toor, Jody ............................................................Langley-Willowbrook Van Popta, Misty..............................................Langley–Walnut Grove Warbus, Á’a:líya ..............................................Chilliwack–Cultus Lake Wat, Teresa .........................................................Richmond-Bridgeport Williams, David ...............................................Salmon Arm–Shuswap Wilson, Donegal ............................................Boundary-Similkameen BC GREEN PARTY Botterell, Rob .......................................Saanich North and the Islands Valeriote, Jeremy .....................................

West Vancouver–Sea to Sky INDEPENDENT Armstrong, Tara .....................Kelowna–Lake Country–Coldstream Brodie, Dallas .................................................... Vancouver-Quilchena Kealy, Jordan ............................................................. Peace River North PARTY STANDINGS Total seats – 93 BC NDP – 47 | Conservative Party of BC – 41 | BC Green Party – 2 | Independent – 3

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF RIDINGS A Abbotsford-Mission ........................................................Reann Gasper Abbotsford South ........................................................... Bruce Banman Abbotsford West .............................................................Korky Neufeld B Boundary-Similkameen .............................................Donegal Wilson Bulkley Valley–Stikine ............................................... Sharon Hartwell Burnaby Centre ...........................................................Hon.

Anne Kang Burnaby East ......................................................................Rohini Arora Burnaby–New Westminster .................................. Hon. Raj Chouhan Burnaby North ..............................................................Janet Routledge Burnaby South–Metrotown .................................................. Paul Choi C Cariboo-Chilcotin .......................................................Lorne Doerkson Chilliwack–Cultus Lake .............................................. Á’a:líya Warbus Chilliwack North ..........................................................

Heather Maahs Columbia River–Revelstoke ...........................................Scott McInnis Coquitlam–Burke Mountain .............................. Hon. Jodie Wickens Coquitlam-Maillardville .................................... Jennifer Blatherwick Courtenay-Comox ............................................................ Brennan Day Cowichan Valley ....................... Debra Toporowski / Qwulti’stunaat D Delta North ................................................................Hon.

Ravi Kahlon Delta South ...............................................................................Ian Paton E Esquimalt-Colwood ................................................Darlene Rotchford F Fraser-Nicola .......................................................................... Tony Luck J Juan de Fuca–Malahat ...............................................Dana Lajeunesse K Kamloops Centre ............................................................. Peter Milobar Kamloops–North Thompson .........................................

Ward Stamer Kelowna Centre ........................................................... Kristina Loewen Kelowna–Lake Country–Coldstream ......................Tara Armstrong Kelowna-Mission ..................................................................Gavin Dew Kootenay Central ............................................ Hon. Brittny Anderson Kootenay Monashee ....................................................Steve Morissette Kootenay Rockies................................................................... Pete Davis L Ladysmith-Oceanside ........................................

Stephanie Higginson Langford-Highlands ................................................ Hon. Ravi Parmar Langley-Abbotsford ....................................................Harman Bhangu Langley–Walnut Grove ..............................................Misty Van Popta Langley-Willowbrook ............................................................ Jody Toor M Maple Ridge East ............................................................Lawrence Mok Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ........................................Hon. Lisa Beare Mid Island–Pacific Rim ........................................ Hon.

Josie Osborne N Nanaimo–Gabriola Island ..........................Hon. Sheila Malcolmson Nanaimo-Lantzville ................................................. George Anderson Nechako Lakes ....................................................................John Rustad New Westminster–Coquitlam .................... Hon. Jennifer Whiteside North Coast–Haida Gwaii ............Hon. Laanas / Tamara Davidson North Island ........................................................................Anna Kindy North Vancouver–Lonsdale .....................................Hon.

Bowinn Ma North Vancouver–Seymour ...............................................Susie Chant O Oak Bay–Gordon Head ......................................... Hon. Diana Gibson P Peace River North ..............................................................Jordan Kealy Peace River South ............................................................Larry Neufeld Penticton-Summerland .............................................. Amelia Boultbee Port Coquitlam ................................................. Hon. Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Burquitlam ........................................Hon.

Rick Glumac Powell River–Sunshine Coast ............................. Hon. Randene Neill Prince George–Mackenzie ...............................................Kiel Giddens Prince George–North Cariboo ......................................Sheldon Clare Prince George–Valemount ...............................................Rosalyn Bird R Richmond-Bridgeport .......................................................... Teresa Wat Richmond Centre .................................................................. Hon Chan Richmond-Queensborough ............................................

Steve Kooner Richmond-Steveston ...............................................Hon. Kelly Greene S Saanich North and the Islands ....................................... Rob Botterell Saanich South ......................................................... Hon.

Lana Popham Salmon Arm–Shuswap ................................................David Williams Skeena ..................................................................................Claire Rattée Surrey City Centre ...............................................................Amna Shah Surrey-Cloverdale .......................................................... Elenore Sturko Surrey-Fleetwood ....................................................... Hon. Jagrup Brar Surrey-Guildford ....................................................... Hon.

Garry Begg Surrey-Newton .................................................................. Jessie Sunner Surrey North ............................................................Mandeep Dhaliwal Surrey-Panorama ..............................................................Br yan Tepper Surrey–Serpentine River ................................................

Linda Hepner Surrey South ..................................................................Brent Chapman Surrey–White Rock .......................................................Trevor Halford V Vancouver-Fraserview ...........................................Hon. George Chow Vancouver-Hastings ........................................ Hon. Niki Sharma, KC Vancouver-Kensington ...................................................Mable Elmore Vancouver-Langara .............................................................Sunita Dhir Vancouver–Little Mountain ............................. Hon.

Christine Boyle Vancouver–Point Grey .........................................Hon. David Eby, KC Vancouver-Quilchena ......................................................Dallas Brodie Vancouver-Renfrew ................................................... Hon. Adrian Dix Vancouver–South Granville ................................ Hon. Brenda Bailey Vancouver-Strathcona ..................................... Amshen / Joan Phillip Vancouver–West End .......................Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert Vancouver-Yaletown ..................................................Hon.

Terry Yung Vernon-Lumby ....................................................... Harwinder Sandhu Victoria–Beacon Hill ................................................. Hon. Grace Lore Victoria–Swan Lake ..........................................................Nina Krieger W West Kelowna–Peachland ..........................................Macklin McCall West Vancouver–Capilano ................................................Lynne Block West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...................................... Jeremy Valeriote

CONTENTS Tuesday, May 6, 2025 Afternoon Sitting Page Orders of the Day Committee of Supply ...................................................................................................................................................... 2197 Estimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General (continued) Elenore Sturko Hon.

Garry Begg Bryan Tepper Rob Botterell Brent Chapman Second Reading of Bills .................................................................................................................................................. 2218 Bill 5 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2025 (continued) On the amendment (continued) Sharon Hartwell Brent Chapman On the main motion Hon. Brenda Bailey Bill 11 — Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2025 Hon.

Jennifer Whiteside Kiel Giddens Jeremy Valeriote Darlene Rotchford Brennan Day Standing Order 81.1 ........................................................................................................................................................ 2233 Adoption of Government Business

Schedule Hon. Mike Farnworth Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ...................................................................................................................................................... 2235 Estimates: Ministry of Social Development and Poverty Reduction (continued) Tara Armstrong Hon. Sheila Malcolmson Kristina Loewen Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Economic Development and Innovation Hon. Diana Gibson Gavin Dew Teresa Wat Estimates: Ministry of Transportation and Transit Hon.

Mike Farnworth Harman Bhangu Sheldon Clare Lynne Block Ward Stamer Proceedings in the Birch Room Committee of the Whole ................................................................................................................................................ 2263 Bill 7 — Economic Stabilization (Tariff Response) Act (continued) Kiel Giddens Hon. Niki Sharma Tony Luck Steve Kooner Rob Botterell Gavin Dew

2197 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 2025 The House met at 1:32 p.m. [Mable Elmore in the chair.] Orders of the Day Hon. Mike Farnworth: In this chamber, I call con - tinued Committee of Supply for the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. In the Douglas Fir Room, I call continued supply de - bates on the estimates of the Ministry of Social Develop - ment and Poverty Reduction, to be followed by the Min - istry of Jobs, Economic Development and Innovation, and if that is completed, the Ministry of Transportation and Transit. In the Birch Room, I call continued committee on Bill 7, Economic Stabilization. The House in Committee,

Section B. The committee met at 1:34 p.m. [Lorne Doerkson in the chair.] Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOLICITOR GENERAL (continued) The C hair: Good afternoon, Members. We’ll call this House back to order. On Vote 42: ministry operations, $1,121,960,000 (continued). [1:35 p.m.] The Chair: As you’ve heard, we’re going to be consid - ering the budget estimates of Public Safety and Solicitor General this afternoon.

Elenore Sturko: In a bid to protect its workers and to reduce what Loblaws calls violent incidents, the number of stores in British Columbia that have employees wearing body-worn cameras is increasing. Loblaws, which owns properties like Superstore and Shoppers Drug Mart, con - firmed to media on March 25 of this year that the number of stores now participating in this program is going up to 11, where only two stores were previously taking part. First, can the minister share some thoughts on retail employees having to wear body cameras to work in a shop?

What provincial programs and funding are being allocated to reduce the risk that retail employees in British Columbia are increasingly facing because of this government’s inabil- ity to manage public safety? [1:40 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: Importantly, I think it is for us to consider, first of all, that we are committed with busi - nesses, with business groups, to doing what can be done to ensure that those on the front line and facing customers each day, whether they be stocking shelves or working in the aisles, are safe and have the tools that are available for them to do their job.

It’s important that they feel safe, that they surround themselves with other workers and devices that allow that to happen. We’ve met with business groups. They’ve voiced their concern directly to us. On an ongoing basis, we have cooperated with our policing partners, with the federal government, so that businesses directly, on SITE, can take advantage of the opportunities that are allowed to them to protect themselves when they’re doing their job. We, of course, fund police throughout the province.

We have SITE-funded operations which have directly im - pacted the outcomes of their group by targeting a high volume of repeat offenders and holding them accountable, reducing public exposure to violent crime and disrupting cycles of violence. For example, since May 2023, the program SITE has supported 113 operations across 33 communities with approved funding of over $10 million and facilitated in - vestigations of over 2,900 individuals, with 1,900 recom - mended charges for 965 individuals with substantial seiz - ures of illegal weapons, drugs and criminal assets.

Elenore Sturko: In August of 2024, the Wildlife Thrift Store on Granville said it spent $300,000 over the last three years in costs related to crime in the neighbourhood. They reported the money had gone to repairs and security. Does the minister believe that retailers should pay, in some cases, as I mentioned, $100,000 a year for extra se - curity and repairs because of the government’s failure to manage public safety? What is the ministry doing to ad - dress the rising cost to businesses as a result of the govern - ment’s failure to manage public safety? [1:45 p.m.] Hon.

Garry Begg: We, the government of British Col - umbia, have been actively supporting businesses when they encounter problems. It’s important that they look to us, and they do, as partners in their fight, fighting retail crime. We funded them to the tune of $10½ million for money that they use to protect their business. CSTEP, for example, has been a valued program. It’s very supportive. It’s been a success from a criminal point of view. We’re continuing, as we move forward, to ensure that businesses know that they should come to us to seek support as they continue to fight retail crime.

Elenore Sturko: Again at the Wildlife Thrift Store in

2198 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 Vancouver, the security guard there, Japinder Pal Singh, told Global News last summer that he’s been spat on at least 20 times in the eight months that he’s worked at the store and has frequently had things thrown at him. He said, “To be honest, all the time I’m afraid doing my job here,” adding that he frequently finds weapons on people. “Knives are normal. Bear spray, pepper spray, batons, all sorts of weapons.” He ends up, he said, having to handcuff someone at least twice a day.

Yesterday the minister agreed that security officers who are licensed by the province are not trained to inter - vene with weapons. If that is the case and there is active violence inside retail settings, what does he believe secur - ity officers are supposed to do? [1:50 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: It’s important that we not confuse the work of a paid security guard hired by a corporation with that of a police officer. There is no expectation that they act like a police officer. We always caution, and they are trained, that they cannot act beyond the scope of their duties.

They are an important part of deterrence, and in many cases, that’s the sole job that they have to do. There are cases where there are incidents, regrettable incidents that force a security guard to involve himself, perhaps. But I think it’s important that in the context of all of this violence, we are continuing to underfund CSTEP, for example, which is an important program, and the bar - rage program in Vancouver, which had fully and highly trained policemen on the street doing their job every day.

My key points I’d say are that security guards, acting within the scope of their duty, have a limited range of operations, and they must think first about their own per - sonal safety. They liaise on a daily basis with the police in their neighbourhood, and there is an ability to continue to curb that kind of violence by the presence of police. Hon. Christine Boyle: I’d like to seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon. Christine Boyle: I just want to welcome the stu - dents from St. Mary’s School who are visiting us here and are up in the gallery.

It’s so nice to have you here. I understand that they had a tour with Minister Dix or got to meet with Minister Dix earlier. I’m glad to have you here for estimates, which is an im- portant part of our budget process, where we have these sorts of questions and answers and discussions. Will the House join me in welcoming students from St. Mary’s School and their teacher, Mirna Lewis. The Chair: Thank you very much. Kids, that minister is generally referred to as the Minis - ter of Energy and Climate Solutions, in this room.

Debate Continued Elenore Sturko: In his response, the minister said that security guards need to act within the scope of their train - ing and their duties. We’re talking about people who are licensed, for example, by this ministry to be advanced security guards, which allows them to put handcuffs on people. As the minister will remember from his more-than- three-decades-long policing career and I remember from my much shorter policing career, if you put handcuffs on people, you go hands-on. When you go hands-on with people, the chance of encountering a weapon or even strikes from a person goes up.

The minister also said, in his previous answer, that sometimes there are situations where people may be forced to intervene. Could the minister please explain what he means by forced to intervene? Hon. Garry Begg: When I say that the security guard may be forced to intervene, I don’t mean that there was physical force attached to him. Under the circumstances, he or she decided that the most appropriate course of ac - tion would be to intervene. [1:55 p.m.] Elenore Sturko: Thank you to the minister.

I’ll give you a couple of examples here of some rising concern that, as critic for Public Safety, I have with the scope of what’s happening and the reliance upon, increas - ingly, security services to be brought into retail, to be brought into…. Almost every place you go now, they’re hiring security guards. I think it’s heartwarming to see how many people want to step up to be deterrence, as the minister says, to try in their own way to protect their fellow community mem - bers. We’re talking about a scope of work that is increas - ingly high risk in situations. We’ve already heard from Mr.

Pal Singh that they get assaulted and they’re being ex - posed multiple times a day to things like weapons. On April 10, outside of Granville Square, and this is in 2025, near Granville and West Cordova Street, a 62-year- old security guard had his fingertip bitten off. The victim was on shift when he encountered a suspect in an outdoor plaza, police said. Going back in time in March of 2022, Harmandeep Kaur, 24, died after she was attacked during her shift as a security guard at the Kelowna campus of UBC Okanagan. Lots of security guards are newcomers. Many of them are elderly.

Many are adapting to speaking English in their new country, in their new work environments. As more

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2199 businesses are relying on security guards, we have the po - tential for more injuries and even deaths. Does the minister believe that security guards that his ministry is licensing are qualified to deal with the level of danger that they are being exposed to? Hon. Garry Begg: I think we’re veering into hypothet - ical situations. The situation itself is not hypothetical, but we’re being hyperbolic about occurrences that do happen.

I know through my own personal training, I know through the Justice Institute of B.C. that there are a var - iety of options that security guards face. Of course, one of the options is that they can withdraw from a situation they judge could be dangerous. It’s excessively hyperbolic to use examples of the rare occasions when something does happen that could per - haps have involved another method by the security guard so that they withdraw from that dangerous situation, which is not to say that there cannot be unexpected results of contact with a person.

But to concentrate on that alone, I think, presents the perception that there is always danger there. I believe that the Justice Institute provides a level of training that if the member works within the scope of their duties, they should be in a better situation. And it’s always an option to withdraw from a situation. Elenore Sturko: I find it really disturbing to hear the minister categorize talking about…. These are just three, within the last half an hour, of multiple incidents happen - ing across the province where we have….

Even from my own community, the minister’s own community in Sur - rey, we see multiple incidents where it doesn’t have to ne - cessarily be having your thumb bitten off like this poor 62-year-old, but getting spit on, shoved. I mean, this isn’t hyperbole. This isn’t me exaggerating. These are real risks. In fact, we had the Minister of Health standing in here. We discussed this. We canvassed it yes - terday in response to rising stabbings, uttering threats with weapons, things like machetes, crossbows, these types of risks being in places like hospitals. [2:00 p.m.] Now we have people….

And from my own experience dealing with people in the security services while I was taking files as a police officer, many are newcomers — many. Many have language challenges. We’re expecting a lot, and people are getting hurt. To stand up in this place and say that it’s an exaggera - tion, that it’s hyperbolic, that I’m making a mountain out of a molehill…. We had a security guard, a young woman who was actually working that job to save money for tu - ition to go to UBC Okanagan She was killed trying to pro - tect people on her campus.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable that we engage in a discussion, perhaps, on the circum - stances that we currently have going on in the province. With an increase in people with brain injuries, severe substance use disorders, untreated mental illness to the extent where we’re putting designated beds into pretrial and other places so that we can try and get a handle on the rampant violence that we have, random repeat attacks that we would be expecting that…. Businesses and people are fearing for their safety. They’re bringing these individuals into their space. There is an expectation there.

When the public sees a security guard, there is an unspoken expectation that comes with wearing a uniform, even if that uniform only has a flashlight on it. I think that some thought needs to go into looking at what expectation is being placed on se - curity guards in this province, as a result of an epidemic of retail crime that’s absolutely gotten out of control. Some headway has been made with things like ReVOII, but it hasn’t solved the problem. We see increasingly even retail employees wearing things like stab vests and cam - eras.

We need to understand and collect data on what type of risk that poses, then, on people who are now wearing security equipment. What is the expectation being placed on them? What type of risk may they then place them - selves in inadvertently? Retailers are also closing. A vintage consignment store in Vancouver’s downtown core packed up and moved, af - ter nearly a decade in the area, because of rising crime rates in the neighbourhood. “The downtown neighbour - hood has unfortunately declined over time.

Factors like injection sites across the street from the store and an over - arching unsafe feel has become the norm. Numerous shop owners have experienced an increased rate of crime and break-ins in the area as well.” It’s not only retailers who are feeling less safe. At a public forum in Victoria, area residents discussed a new housing project that included drug consumption services. “When SOLID started at North Park, we saw a notable up - take in the amount of drug paraphernalia that children were bringing into the school at recess.

What are you go - ing to do for the children in this community to keep them safe?” A teacher at George Jay Elementary, located less than one kilometre away from the proposed housing project, voiced worries for her students’ safety. “When I look at the other places in town, it doesn’t matter where they are, whether it’s North Park or Ellice or the 900 block of Pan - dora, they are disaster zones. I believe that we’re on a road that is going to get worse and worse and worse.” The reality is that people can see it with their own eyes.

They can see what’s happened in areas where there is a concentration of services that enable drug use. The disor - der is obvious. Can the minister please provide information on how the ministry is managing public safety risks and crime associated to drug use, mental health street disorder that

2200 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 often accompany these services? What risk assessments are being done to protect and keep the communities safe? [2:05 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: None of these places act in isolation. It is part of a community that has been built up over a number of years. Sometimes the best recorders of that in - formation are the policing community themselves, police - men who are on the street, who identify for us areas of particular concern to them.

When you talk of incidents where someone has been spat upon or threatened with a knife or seen some other type of force applied upon them, that is not unique to that community in the sense that the policing that goes on there every day becomes aware of it. In the provincial government, what we’ve done is concentrated our scarce policing resources on a particu - lar area, so that the issues that are there present can be changed.

The barrage program I referred to earlier, from October 1 to January 31, saw a successive drop in the rate of crime in that area, which was, no doubt, because of the police presence and their concentration on crime in that area. Violent crime was down in that area 27 percent; break and enters, down 33 percent; assault with weapons, down 45 percent; and shoplifting itself, down 36 percent. [2:10 p.m.] So while you, perhaps, choose to look at other areas, I choose to look at the stats that have been established by the police, the arrests that have been made.

It’s also im - portant to understand that violent crime now is down in that area as well. Are the police impacting the rate and the incidence of crime? I would say absolutely. Now we’re going to add CSTEP to that program as well. So we will see, I predict, a decline in overall crime as we continue to impact it by a program like CSTEP. The Chair: Just a reminder to have all responses through the Chair. Elenore Sturko: I’m happy to hear that the minister be- lieves public safety resources are scarce; I agree. It’s inter - esting that the minister chooses to concentrate on VPD’s success.

The question wasn’t about whether or not VPD was successful or whether intensive policing projects can be successful — because they can. This question, really, was speaking about both the case of a retailer that shut down because of factors like a safe injection site, an overarching unsafe feeling that resulted from that and break-ins in the area of the injection site in Vancouver.

Then here in Victoria, SOLID was opening housing that included drug use, and teachers and other commun - ity members were coming forward to say that the kids at recess were bringing in needles and drug paraphernalia from open drug use in the school grounds and in the area where the kids play. The question wasn’t about whether VPD is being suc - cessful with project barrage, which they are. It was what risk assessments are done by the ministry, or what will be done, to protect the community.

This is a government that continues to place resources for people with addiction in areas located close to schools, housing, neighbourhoods and retail, and the results are not good. We still have six people a day dying of drug use, and in addition, we have businesses closing, community members feeling unsafe and, apparently, kids playing with drug paraphernalia. The question was…. Maybe I’ll word it differently. What budget measures are allocated to mitigate the risks to public safety because of increased public drug use? [2:15 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: This is becoming a circular discus - sion.

We, as a funding agency, have created programs that I’ve outlined, like SITE and STEP, which have been amaz - ingly successful. The police continue to work that area. They collaborate. They cooperate. They receive informa - tion. They receive intelligence. They identify risks. They shift their resources to meet the risk that is there. It’s dangerous to connect criminal behaviour with drug behaviour sometimes. There is sometimes a connection, but there is not always a connection. To assume that some- one who is abusing drugs is a different kind of criminal is dangerous.

We have invested, the police have invested money to counteract criminal activity at a much higher level. For example, the CFSEU goes after much higher risk. We’re not now talking about street crimes. We’re talking about crimes at a higher level. The discussion becomes circular when you say that we did or did not do this or that we should or should not do this. You don’t get the complete picture until you look at all of it. There is as much regard for prevention, reforma - tion and redirection of criminal activity through policing as we move forward.

My expectation is that the police will continue to con - centrate on the highest or higher risks. It’s much more ef - fective to combat criminal activity, particularly drug ac - tivity, the higher up the chain you go. The police are look - ing after the street-level crimes and also the large crimes that may involve international and extraprovincial crim - inal activity. Elenore Sturko: I’ll just remind the minister that even during decriminalization it remained illegal to possess drugs in a schoolyard. So if kids are finding used para - phernalia in a schoolyard, that’s evidence of a crime.

It’s criminal activity. While I understand the minister might be after the cartels, as he should be, it’s also import -

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2201 ant to remember that there are people who live in these neighbourhoods. Even something as simple to the minister, perhaps, as possession of drugs in a schoolyard, maybe that doesn’t seem like a big crime. But if you’re the parent of a kid who comes home with a hypodermic needle in their backpack or that little kid that picked up some fentanyl at a Na - naimo playground, I mean, it’s your whole world. During VPD’s project barrage, Vancouver police dealt with a room takeover.

A room takeover is a situation where a resident is forced out from their single occupancy suite by individuals who use them as bases for criminal activity. Room takeovers have been reported in the past, of course.

In 2022, the Tyee did a news story on it when a sup - port worker reported that multiple tenants of the London Hotel SRO were threatened with violence by the people who had taken over their rooms, and if they would return, they would be threatened with violence, and some became homeless again. [2:20 p.m.] Based on conversations that this gentleman had with clients, he said that tenants who had been bullied out of the London continued to pay rent for their rooms, that money was deducted from their income or disability as - sistance cheque and that that was transferred to Atira Property Management, which is a common arrangement for people on government assistance.

The worker said: “Even though they’re still paying for the room, they’re told they’ll get beaten up or really hurt, hurt badly if they tell anyone or if they go back.” There have been multiple reports of supportive housing in hotels and other locations becoming hubs for drug trafficking and prostitution. Can the minister please explain and provide details on any interministry work with the Ministry of Housing or Health or Poverty Reduction or funding of initiatives that go towards reducing crime at B.C. Housing projects or any policies or initiatives related to supportive housing? Hon.

Garry Begg: It’s important here that we recog - nize from the outset that there is tremendous cooperation across various ministries in this province. We collabor - ate and cooperate with each other. Most ministries do not work in isolation, one from the other. We have situation tables across the province, 33 to be specific. Those are one-stop shops, as it were.

You may be familiar with situation tables where people from the Ministry of Housing, people from the Ministry of Health, people with drug addictions, parole, probation, police all get together and map out a plan that allows for the reloca - tion or dislocation of these people from their criminal activity. [2:25 p.m.] That is something that has been going on in this prov - ince for quite some time, and my expectation is that it will continue and expand. These problems and problem people do not work in isolation of each other. They have built a community around them, to their detriment.

A situation table with the resources that are available all across the various ministries makes it much easier for those people to make a decision to change their lifestyle. The direct answer to your question is that there is, on an ongoing basis every day of the week, a situation table somewhere in this province that is dealing with the prob - lems that are peculiar to their community. That’s by de - sign. It is working. Information, of course, is shared back with the police. Targeting is done as a result of information that is ob - tained during the situation tables.

That’s how we get to helping people in community, whether it’s in Campbell River or Surrey or wherever, to solve their problems. Elenore Sturko: The decriminalization experiment in British Columbia, which began on January 31, 2023, al - lowed adults to possess up to 2.5 grams of certain illicit drugs — heroin, fentanyl, cocaine, methamphetamine and MDMA — for personal use without criminal penalties.

The three-year pilot, intended to reduce stigma, de - crease criminal justice interactions and address the prov - ince’s drug crisis, was scaled back in 2024 due to public outcry related to rampant public drug use and the inabil - ity of police to respond to that problematic drug use. From February to June 2023, B.C. saw a 76 percent drop in possession offences, as police had stopped arrest - ing people for possession and were, during the pilot, dis - couraged from interactions with people using drugs.

The 15 months of the pilot also coincided with the deadliest year for overdose deaths in the history of our province. Has the ministry evaluated the impact of the decrimin - alization experiment on overall drug investigations? [2:30 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: The question is perhaps better an - swered by the Ministry of Health. They are doing an on - going evaluation, and they have included in their evalu - ation, on an ongoing basis, the policing agencies as well. But they’re better equipped to, perhaps, speak more about the program than I am. Elenore Sturko: It’s unfortunate.

I’m still going to ask a series of questions related to public safety. I think that it would be actually surprising, given that this was an ex - periment undertaken, yes, for health reasons but that had significant impacts on the public safety landscape, espe - cially at the street level. It had an impact on how police could conduct investigations, often that start at the street level by talking to people. I think it’s unfortunate, if this is what the minister is confirming, that they are not doing their own Public Safety Ministry evaluation separate from Health, which

2202 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 would have a bias. I’m going to say it. When the evalua - tions were going on, while decriminalization was still in full swing, even in terms of monitoring, there was no monitoring of negative unintended consequences. There was no monitoring of the impacts of not enfor - cing the law but only trying to bolster arguments to keep going — even in the face of significant harms that were happening at the street level, in hospitals, in places like transit and in restaurants, where people were using drugs — and police were powerless to take action.

Is there information, though, about how decriminal - ization impacted street level enforcement and investiga - tions? How, in the 2025 budget, are they working through some of these impacts? [2:35 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: This, as I’ve mentioned, is an on - going evaluation. The information obtained through the Health Ministry is gained by the benefit of having police input there as well. In spring 2024, we requested a change to the

section 56 CDSA exemptions from Health Canada in response to public concern about public drug use. The new exemp - tion bans open drug use in nearly all public places. People can now only possess drugs in private residences or desig - nated health care sites such as overdose prevention, drug- checking or addiction treatment service locations. An ex - ception has also been made for unhoused people in legal overnight sheltering options. The evaluation is ongoing with the cooperation and with advice from the police on an ongoing basis.

Elenore Sturko: I understand that, and I understand why, from a health care perspective, a review would be done of the decriminalization experiment. Also, there would be a need for a Ministry of Public Safety review, be - cause from a health lens, there will be different things that they’re looking for. For example, when they had their dashboard, the things that they were looking for about police….

They were only looking at whether or not the number of arrests for people for possession went down, which, of course, they did be - cause they weren’t arresting people, because that part of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act was gone. But what about the increase to drug use in hospitals? What about the number of incidents that they were called to where there was drug use on beaches?

Fiona Wilson went to the parliamentary committee, HESA, in Ottawa and talked about a scenario where if someone was smok - ing crystal meth next to your family at the beach, the po - lice couldn’t respond because it wasn’t illegal. What about a full evaluation of how this experiment impacted safety, through a safety lens, through the min - ister’s lens of looking…? Yes, we wanted to do an experi - ment to try and see if we could deal with this issue solely looking through the health lens, and it was disastrous. What impact did that actually have? Did we have an increase in gangs and cartels?

Survey says yes, we did. We saw a doubling, actually, almost. We talked about that yesterday. The number of cartels and gangs identified operating in the province of British Col - umbia happened to coincide around the time that we had 15 months of not enforcing possession laws in British Columbia.

I don’t know if that’s a direct result or if it happens to be a really wild coincidence, but a review of the decrimin - alization experiment from the lens of public safety would be appropriate to make sure that if someone gets the wild idea that we should stop enforcing B.C. and Canada’s laws ever again, we know what the impact is going to be, be - cause it is a matter of safety. In May ’24, the minister is correct that the government recriminalized drug use in public. It allowed the police to arrest, seize drugs, compel individuals to leave.

When the Premier went on television and did a news conference about rolling back the decrim experiment, he still stipu - lated that police would be encouraged to simply move people on and that, in fact, the previous Sol. Gen had said that that’s basically the last option. [2:40 p.m.] They didn’t want to still arrest people. They wanted to not charge people, unless it was an extenuating circum - stance. I’m wondering if the minister can please explain: has the number of charges for possession of drugs in - creased since the rollback of the pilot? Hon.

Garry Begg: There has been an increase in the number of charges subsequent to the change in the act. I would say, as well, that it’s important that police are given a wide use of discretion in these types of charges. Elenore Sturko: Thank you to the minister for the response. During project Barrage, in just over a month, VPD executed 153 warrants. Those were arrest warrants. They made 204 Criminal Code arrests. As well, 200 weapons were seized in four weeks. That’s a 258 percent increase, which, as the minister earlier stated, did result in a 30 per - cent reduction in assaults with a weapon.

During decriminalization — police were not able to conduct the same type of street-level enforcement due to the removal of possession charges from the CDSA. How did that impact safety, and what kind of data related to warrants and weapons seizures during the decriminaliza - tion experiment exists? Will there be a thorough review to see what impact decriminalization had on the execution of warrants and seizure of weapons at the street level during that time? [2:45 p.m.]

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2203 Hon. G arry Begg: I’ll take the question under notice and get back to you with that information. Elenore Sturko: I think this is important. I think that understanding the full scope of how we were impacted during that time…. If we make a decision to make some other kind of change to help stop the six people a day from dying, we need to not only look at the reduction of harm for people with substance use issues but what those over - arching impacts to public safety as a province it will have.

I can remember, and I’m guessing the minister remem- bers, too, street-level enforcement, where there was, for ex- ample, the possession of drugs, often leading to the seiz - ure of a weapon — not necessarily resulting in a charge even, but incidental to arrest or detention for investiga - tion — and seizing things like machetes, chains, all kinds of things that do have an impact on our ability to manage the types of violence at the street level. One of the stats that the VPD had talked about is that it’s not just that the amount of assaults overall had gone down but the assaults with weapons went down.

While there may still in the Downtown Eastside during project barrage be assaults that take place, the severity of the in - juries to the victims could be substantially less because they’ve had an opportunity to remove weapons, which is, of course, really a positive thing.

My last question here on the decriminalization pilot is: will the ministry commit to compiling data on decrimin - alization, not only to see if there were fewer arrests and then subsequently more arrests but looking at all the other aspects that these changes had on street-level enforcement, on the ability of police to conduct investigations and on the drug-trafficking landscape as it evolved over that per - iod of time in British Columbia? Hon. Garry Begg: Interesting proposition. We will do, as part of an integrated process with other partners, a re - view, as you suggested. Elenore Sturko: Thank you.

That’s good news, and I’d be happy to help in any capacity that the opposition can lend a hand. I only have a few minutes left before I’m going to turn this over to the member for Surrey-Panorama. I just want to follow up quickly on a couple of things from yesterday, related to illicit vapes, tobacco and cannabis. We are in a financial situation in the province where we actually need to collect as much revenue as we can from all those sources. We know that the revenues from cannabis and tobacco products and nicotine products go back into our system to fund the very projects that we badly need.

Unfortunately, we know that at least for cigarettes alone, it’s a 34 percent illegal market share that is estimated by industry research. This would translate into 534 million cigarettes, which costs about $174 million annually. Over time, that’s quite a bit of money that could be injected into other programs, including law enforcement. A 1 per - cent, 5 percent or 10 percent reduction in illegal tobacco is worth $5 million, $25 million or even up to $50 million, respectively. [2:50 p.m.] For the sake of time, I’m going to ask a few of the ques - tions so I don’t fall behind.

When it comes to vapes, vapes in particular don’t just have these financial implications. They have health and safety implications as well. The industry, along with other authorities, conducts reviews of retailers in the Lower Mainland and across the province. They did a retail sweep in the Lower Mainland in June of 2024, and they inspected 60 vape product re - tailers. Of those, 56 out of 60 stores — that’s 93 percent — were selling non-compliant products. That’s a lot.

Those products are fraudulently packaged dispos - able devices that had more than the allowable amount of fluid, more than the concentration that they were allowed to have of the product inside. Because it has more vapes inside, it actually is stealing provincial sales tax and, of course, the excise tax. There were also illegal nicotine patches in approxi - mately 50 percent of the retailers, including Zyn. They’re not allowed here, but they’re still available, apparently, in 50 percent of the retailers that were inspected.

Let me read a few of these, for the sake of my own time here, and I would love to hear just generally what the thought here would be. There are actually some changes to regulations that are being suggested by industry to help to take away the market share from the illicit sources. Really, looking for a commitment from the minister in terms of vaping prod - ucts, they’re looking for removing the volume restrictions so that the legal retailers are able to compete and remove that market share from the illicit sources; also, removing the regulation that says that refill containers can’t have more than 30 millilitres.

They note that some of the reasons why we had these restrictions here in British Columbia were because of safety for kids, but a new federal regulation had come in and increased the amount of safety on those devices, mak - ing these redundant pieces of legislation. They feel that in removing those restrictions, it allows them to basically compete with the illicit sources and, hopefully, remove the market share from those other guys. Likewise, the cannabis industry is struggling.

Costs and fees are placing burdens on our B.C. cannabis grow - ers with pressure, and licensed growers have come here and said that they’re leaving the industry because of ris - ing costs. Again, once we lose our legal market, they can be easily displaced by illicit sources, which still make up

2204 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 a fairly big chunk of the market here. Illicit sources con - tinue to take a large market share here in British Columbia. Again, they’re asking for regulatory changes to allow, for example, cannabis tourism, kind of like winery tour - ism. They’re looking for regulatory change permitting re - sponsible consumption within production retail settings. Like visiting a winery and having a glass of wine, they want you to be able to go to their cannabis production and be able to sample products.

That would generate jobs, also revenue in terms of the taxation for the government, and help reduce that market share for illicit sources, fighting organized crime. It’s a win-win. Get your money here to pay the bills and fight organized crime. Looking for a commitment from the minister to please review, both in the cannabis act and then for the tobacco and vapes, regulations that will help reduce the market share for illicit sources and help boost tax revenues back to the province. [2:55 p.m.] Hon. Christine Boyle: I’d like to seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon.

Christine Boyle: I would like to welcome stu - dents, staff and parents from St. Mary’s School in Vancou- ver who are here visiting and having a tour of the Legisla - ture today. We’re so glad to have you here. We’re in the midst of estimates, which is when the opposition asks questions of the government on the budget. So glad that you could join us and that I get to welcome you on behalf of the Minister of Energy and Climate Solu - tions, who is the MLA in your school area, though I know you’re from across Vancouver, and I know some of you are also constituents of mine.

I’m glad to see familiar faces and friends. Will the House please join me in making them feel welcome. Debate Continued Elenore Sturko: Can I just add one thing? In terms of the vapes, one of the issues with non-compliance is that they were looking to see if there would be a greater appe - tite for enforcement. Their inspections in those are find - ing a high percentage of non-compliance — looking to see if there would be a further commitment for the enforce- ment of those regulations. Hon.

Garry Begg: I would say at the outset that, par - ticularly, the legal cannabis industry has been and con - tinues to be very forward-thinking in adapting and changing regulations so that it better meets the needs of the market. In B.C., they enacted a legal and regulatory framework to govern retail sales and distribution as well as dedicated enforcement to support the transition from illicit to legal and regulated. My ministry leads the ongoing implementation of the provincial regulatory framework as well as policy co - ordination across ministries and in alignment with the federal government.

We’re working across ministries, with cannabis industries, Indigenous partners and local governments to identify where adjustments to the prov - incial framework can be made to support the legal sector, including increasing access to industry support programs and gradually enabling cannabis hospitality and tourism experiences. Since legalization, we’ve made several adjustments to the provincial framework to support the legal sector.

Ex - amples include authorizing licensed retailers to offer on - line sales and delivery, developing programs for farm-gate sales and direct delivery distribution and adjusting rules around promotion of places to consume cannabis. The ministry is now looking towards enabling cannabis sales at events like craft fairs and this kind of thing. [3:00 p.m.] It’s also important…. As far as the vape goes, in this province, it is regulated not provincially but municipally. The enforcement mechanism there is usually on a bylaw basis.

I’m aware that there are problems with the indus - try and the sale of product that is not suitable for human consumption, but the enforcement of the regulations is a municipal responsibility. Elenore Sturko: Sorry, just one follow-up before I turn it over. In terms of the regulation provincially that stipu - lates how much strength or how many vapes…. I don’t know. I’m not a vape person. How many servings that are inside the vape that are allowed to have…. This is where the discrepancy is.

Even though Health Canada has also tested these sam - ples, they’re finding that your provincial sales tax, our tax, is being stolen. I don’t know the real number, but some of them are supposed to have 50 servings, and they end up having like 250. That’s 150 stolen servings that we could have received revenue for, and we’re allowing that, according to these industry groups. Many of these people or organizations who are selling these counterfeit and illegal vapes in Brit - ish Columbia with such a huge market share are actually tied to criminal organizations.

I think that regardless of whether it is a bylaw enforce- ment issue municipally or whether there are ways that we can take back the market share and support enforcement,

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2205 at least if the minister could commit to meeting with this industry to look at those solutions…. They also point to other provinces where they don’t have the same regula - tions that we do, and they actually have a lesser problem than we do with the illicit market share. Hon. Garry Begg: I have met with members of the vaping industry. This, essentially, is a child, as it were, of the Ministry of Finance — the application of the fees at - tached to it. It’s something, certainly, that I can discuss with the Minister of Finance.

Bryan Tepper: I would like to get into a little bit of BCLC and online gaming and iGaming. Interestingly enough, I got an email with a letter actually from the Brit - ish Columbia Gaming Industry Association just while we were sitting here. They have their concerns about how their business has been going since the pandemic and how they can keep revenue moving as they are losing to the on - line gaming that we have in this province. I will bring up the PlayNow website, which the govern - ment does operate through BCLC. It hasn’t really been an ideal site.

I’ve used it myself, and my wife sometimes, while we watch the Canucks and place a $5 or $10 bet on it. It is not as good as other websites that I’ve seen — not that I’ve used other websites. They have been out there. I’m not much of a gambler. That $5 or $10 usually lasts me for a while. Anyway, the casino, community gaming and bingo operations generated revenues of $1.87 billion to BCLC in ’23-24. I’m to understand that they’re losing share in that now. I’m not sure how much we’ve gone down or anything else, but that’s not into the question.

That’s just an idea of how much the gaming industry means to our province. With the online gaming that we have, I believe and the BCGIA also believes that we’re losing money, basic - ally, to foreign markets with these websites that we’re not controlling. [3:05 p.m.] I would like to know if there’s an appetite to work, as a province, to maintain regulation over iGaming and allow operation to go over to an industry group like that. They have some ideas as well. Mine would be slightly different: operated as one group, one website, to control what is al - lowed in this province.

Has there been any thought into us just taking over regulation? Hon. Garry Begg: The PlayNow site is the only gam - ing site in British Columbia that is legal. There are quer - ies being made about the liability, feasibility, acceptability through the gaming branch for other kinds of gaming as well. Bryan T epper:

Section 63 of the Gaming Control Act states that the Lottery Corp. must take reasonable steps to prevent an individual from continuing to participate in an online gaming scheme if the Lottery Corp. has reason to believe that the individual is either unlawfully partici - pating in the online gaming scheme, participating in the online gaming scheme for the purposes of carrying out an unlawful activity or engaging in unlawful conduct or an unlawful activity while participating online gaming scheme. However, as I was saying, we have that multitude of sites: Bet365, Stake, Betway. There’s a multitude of them.

I believe in Ontario they’re up to 70 that they allow, and most of those are actually not operated from Canada. That’s my understanding. How is the minister going to ensure that gaming is regulated across B.C.? Hon. Garry Begg: To the member: the gambling to which you refer is illegal. It’s treated as illegal. When the Gaming Commission becomes aware of it, that it’s prevalent and active here, they conduct an investi- gation, part of which may be that they send a letter to the persons involved, the company involved and ask that they cease and desist from operations in this province.

The ap - plication of the law in regard to that is a federal matter. Bryan Tepper: I will just quickly ask: is enforcement provincial? [3:10 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: The application of the law is prov - incial. There is a federal component if the site is housed outside of the province, but there is cooperation between the provincial authority here and the federal authorities, generally. Bryan T epper: I will follow up on that one more time with the regulation then. Can the minister tell us if the regulation of….

What occurs within the geographical boundaries of British Columbia on the iGaming, are we regulating that at all right now provincially? Hon. Garry Begg: The answer is that yes, we do enforce that inside the province. The provincial gaming commis - sion does that. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. The service plan for ’25-26 estimates spending on gam- ing policy and enforcement around $22.2 million. How much of that is going to go directly to online gaming enforcement? Hon. Garry Begg: Only $3.4 million of that $22.2 mil - lion is spent on enforcement.

2206 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. I don’t know if we have the answer, but if we do, how much money is iGaming bringing into BCLC right now? If I could add, and estimate how much is total, including the illegal sites, if we have an estimate on that as well, just to total it all up in one go. Hon. Garry Begg: That question is better directed to the Ministry of Finance. Bryan T epper: Has the gaming policy and enforcement branch been updated since 2010 to include online gaming?

Do they currently conduct and oversee the enforcement of unlicensed gaming platforms in B.C.? Hon. Garry Begg: Yes, we will investigate if the sites you’re talking about operate within British Columbia. [3:15 p.m.] Bryan Tepper: Just to get the answer on the…. Has the gaming policy and enforcement branch been updated since 2010 to include all of that? Hon. Garry Begg: A new act was brought into force in 2022 and will be actually brought into force later this year. Br yan Tepper: Okay, so I will confirm, then, that the Gaming Control Act does update that then.

Given the growth in online gaming, what protections, if any, does the ministry have in place to protect Brit - ish Columbians who use online gaming platforms, par - ticularly in relation to data privacy, fraud and addiction safeguards? Hon. Garry Begg: Again, your question is better an - swered by the Ministry of Finance. Bryan Tepper: Sorry. I’m just trying to figure out how that does relate to Ministry of Finance — data privacy, fraud and addiction safeguards. If we have the fraud in there and data privacy, would that…? Maybe I’ll just con - firm one more time. That will be Finance and not…? Hon.

Garry Begg: There is a separation between the business side of BCLC and the regulator. Bryan Tepper: If there was fraud being committed through the iGaming platform, would it not fall under So - licitor General and Public Safety? Say we throw in under - age gambling that goes in on that as well. Would that fall into something that the ministry would take care of? Hon. Garry Begg: That is something that would be in - vestigated by the ministry — the underage, the fraud, that kind of thing. Br yan Te pper: Okay.

If I rephrase the question a little bit, what protections does the ministry have in place or plan to put in place for fraud, underage gambling? [3:20 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: When the new regulations come into effect later this year, there are provisions for the pre- vention of some of the things that can be prevalent, in - cluding underage illegal activities, etc. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Do we have any independent oversight that exists for BCLC’s online gaming platform, PlayNow.com?

What steps does the minister take to ensure there’s no conflict of interest, given that the Crown acts as a regulator and rev - enue generator? Hon. Garry Begg: This might get confusing for you, but BCLC reports to the Ministry of Finance, and the gaming enforcement branch reports to the Ministry of So - licitor General, so there is a deliberate separation of the two sides. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Actually, it wasn’t that confusing. That was a good one. What I will finish up on this is….

Given that there’s a lot to be gained, a lot to be lost with the criminal aspect of this, the illegal sites, can we get a commitment to move forward with the independent bodies that might be able to put this forward to be regulated by the province and operated by somebody else as an oversight group, however they want…? Sorry, the regulation would be the oversight. They would be the operating group. If we can move towards that direction to make sure we have no conflicts, and we are assisting, bringing money in for things like the community gaming grants that…. I know I’ve applied for many of them.

They’re very valu - able and have been drying up, apparently, in the last little while. There have been no increases in those, so this is in - credibly important to all our community groups. I’ll let you go. Hon. Garry Begg: There is an ongoing commitment to look at some of the issues that you have raised. Br yan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Thanks for that section. I’d like to move into the future of contract policing. [3:25 p.m.] Currently contract policing is overseen by the prov - incial police service agreement from, I believe, 2012. It should be extended through March 31, 2032.

At this point, we do have…. Either side can terminate the agreement with 24 months’ notice. Those are the important parts that I want to cover on that right now.

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2207 How much of the $577 million the ministry estimates spending on policing and security ’25-26 is spent on con - tract policing? The C hair: Members, it’s been requested to have a quick recess, so we will sit in recess for the next seven minutes, precisely seven minutes. Thank you, Members. The committee recessed from 3:26 p.m. to 3:39 p.m. [Mable Elmore in the chair.] The Chair: I’ll call the committee back to order. We are considering estimates for the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. Hon.

Garry Begg: The final ’24-25 delegation to the RCMP was $623 million for the B.C. RCMP as the provin - cial police service. That represents the 70-30 percent cost- sharing with Canada under the provincial police service agreement. [3:40 p.m.] Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Maybe I should ask if I have the number wrong. The $577 million for spending on that — is that number wrong? It’s $623 million as the amount? I will just continue with the question then.

According to the provincial police service agreement, the RCMP aids the province in the administration of jus - tice by implementing the provincial policing objectives, priorities and goals as determined by the minister. To the minister: what policing objectives and policy goals have been developed by the ministry, and can you please table them? Hon. Garry Begg: I’ll read directly from the note to the RCMP commissioner. In accordance with

article 6.1 of the PPSA, the provincial minister sets the objectives, pri - orities and goals of the provincial police service. The poli - cing priorities for B.C. are sent to the commanding officer of E division, all chiefs of municipal police departments and self-administered policing services in the province. In the latest year, which is 2023, the commanding of - ficer of E division was issued the following policing prior - ities for B.C. Staff existing vacancies within the provincial police service. Address systemic racism throughout various initiatives. Implement the B.C.

First Nations justice strategy, the city of Surrey’s police model transition. Address repeat and violent offending. Increase use of restorative justice. Collaborate with community partners on safety issues, including mental health and addictions. Target proceeds of crime for high-level organized crim - inals in line with the Cullen commission recommenda - tions. Combat gangs and criminal organizations that fuel the toxic drug supply. Lastly, support service delivery recommendations identified in the Special Committee on Reforming the Po - lice Act.

Bryan Tepper: Given that British Columbia has the largest number of contract RCMP officers in Canada, and with the uncertainty that’s been created in the past couple of years by the federal government in moving that, has there been a look at what a transition would be, given that level of uncertainty? [3:45 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: In May 2024, the former federal Minister of Public Safety wrote to provincial and terri - torial ministers regarding the need for a stronger RCMP federal program, including a separate, distinct mandate for contract policing.

This correspondence also provided a commitment that Canada and the RCMP will continue its contract policing program beyond 2032. The province is engaged with partners from other provinces, territories, local governments in B.C. and the federal government through various committees at the staff and DM levels on work considering the future of con- tract policing. Br yan Tepper: I guess that sort of answers it, but I’ll get a comment on this.

Is the ministry and the govern - ment considering the creation of a provincial-wide police force at all, which was recommended by the all-party B.C. legislative committee in 2022? [3:50 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: The work that was done by the spe - cial committee on policing in British Columbia will con - tinue. We, as a government, are committed to looking at all of the options that are available. Bryan Tepper: I’m going to jumble my question around because of that. Going from the estimates notes from ’24- 25….

They have a quote: “Exploring this option would re - quire extensive research, including legal, operational, fi - nancial, communications and consultation.” Does this minister support the creation of a provincial police service that moves away from the RCMP? Hon. G arry Begg: The dynamics of policing in Canada are changing dramatically. It is something that we have to be cognizant of. As the minister responsible for Public Safety, it is an opportunity for me to look at all the options. I would say that it is a response of ours that we will examine closely all the possibilities, in consultation with

2208 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 the general public, to see what meets best the needs of British Columbians. Bryan Tepper: My question to the minister is then: how much do we project that exploring these other options would cost? Hon. G arry Begg: We will use the existing resources within the ministry, as we move forward, so that no addi - tional funding will be required at this point. Bryan Tepper: So perhaps I could ask then: what is the progress thus far looking into the special committee’s recommendations? Really, what are they that we’re look - ing into?

If we could table them. [3:55 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: I’ll read directly so that, perhaps, makes logical sense to you. Work continues on the policing and public safety mod - ernization initiative, which was established to respond to the recommendations of the Special Committee on Re - forming the Police Act. This initiative is taking a phased approach. Phase 1 introduced legislative amendments in April 2024 that address topics related to municipal police gov - ernance, police oversight and tiered law enforcement within the current Police Act.

These amendments directly respond to recommendations of the special committee and changes requested by the Office of the Police Com - plaint Commissioner. Government is now building on these initial amend - ments, based on a significant consultation process that has been ongoing since 2023, to determine our next priorities for modernizing policing and updating the Police Act. For all this, to do this right, we need to consider fu - ture changes carefully and in close partnership with all impacted groups.

We are also continuing to work on de - veloping regulations that will bring all the changes made to the Police Act in 2024 into force. Bryan Tepper: Given the critical role the RCMP does play in rural and small communities, with the cost-shar - ing with the federal government and the under 15,000 population with the 70-30 split, how will the minister en - sure that the new model does not abandon the rural small towns for large, urban policing in communities? Hon.

Garry Begg: The RCMP has been the provincial police agency here in British Columbia for a great number of years and has provided tremendous service day in and day out all across the province, in big cities and in small cities. The challenge facing us today is to replicate a model that does the same thing. [4:00 p.m.] You’re right in the sense that small communities de - serve the same quality and level of policing as do large cit - ies.

That’s one of the recommendations noted in the po - lice reform act — that there has to be, across the province, whether it be in the largest city or in the smallest com - munity, a quality and level of policing that best suits the needs of British Columbia. That was the intent of the special committee. That’s my intent, to ensure that the quality and level of policing in British Columbia is the highest attainable in the country. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Given that we know the crime rate in a lot of our north- ern communities….

I policed Williams Lake, and I think we were top three in the country for several of those years. I don’t think it was my fault, but it probably dropped be - cause I did such a good job afterwards. Have we had any of those communities that have raised concerns, any of the municipalities brought it to the min - istry about the future of the RCMP contract policing in their communities? Hon. Garry Begg: We meet, of course, with the Union of B.C. Municipalities regularly, the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs and solicit advice and opinion from all across the province.

You will not be surprised to know that everyone has a different perception of their problem which is peculiar to where they live. What we have received runs the gamut of geographic locations. Smaller communities have perhaps more in - tense needs than some larger communities. But the divid - ing line or the commitment about policing, our commit - ment to that is that it will be the same wherever you are in the province. There are, of course, logistical problems. There are staffing problems with the RCMP and other policing agencies, and difficulties, in some cases, in fulfilling their obligations.

That’s not unique to the RCMP but is unique to policing in the most recent years. But our commitment, again, is to ensure that the quality and level of policing in British Columbia is the best possible. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. I will just ask, maybe a yes or a no: have any municipal - ities actually just raised concerns purely about the RCMP leaving and being replaced with something else? Hon. Garry Begg: In our most recent report on our municipal round table, the indication is that the majority of members of that municipal round table are supportive of the RCMP.

Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Perhaps I’m going to end up switching gears here. For

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2209 this one, I might as well just ask right now: how many provincial police officers, contract police officers, not muni c ipality but the ones that the province is paying for, do we have in the province right now? [4:05 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: It’s 2,431 members, including the members at Surrey detachment. Bryan Tepper: I would assume the ones at Surrey de - tachment will not be continuing on. What would we have if they aren’t a part…? Maybe you could just confirm. Are they part of the reg - ular provincial force, and if they’re not, how many without them? Hon.

Garry Begg: The number of positions, without Surrey, is 1,991. [4:10 p.m.] Bryan Tepper: If we’re continuing forward with 1,991 in moving to a different model, do we have a cost differ - ence, without the 30 percent from the federal government, from what we would end up with if we continued with the same number of provincial police? Hon. Garry Begg: We do not have that information. Bryan Tepper: If it’s possible to get that in the future, that would be terrific. I will move on. I’m trying to fit in as much as I can in my time, so I might jump around a little bit.

How would the minister be advocating for stronger bail laws? During question period, the Attorney General said the minister is making sure there are the resources on the ground to make sure the system is ready to respond. If the minister could explain the system and what resources that the Attorney General would be referring to? Hon. Garry Begg: I will defer entirely to the Attorney General, who is our lead when it comes to the bail reform program.

But I do know that the program that she was re - ferring to is the repeat violent offending intervention in - itiative — we call it ReVOII — which brings together police, dedicated prosecutors and probation officers to address re- peat violent offending through enhanced investigation, en- forcement and monitoring of individuals in communities throughout B.C. It’s important to understand that the position that B.C. has taken has become a subject of great discussion in Ot - tawa. The Premier and the Attorney General are actually amongst those who are leading these changes.

Br yan Tepper: Yes, I do appreciate that program. I think it has been fairly successful. I’ll move on. In the fall 2024 budget — I’m going to get into some numbers here, I apologize — table 1.8 lists ac - tual spending for ’23-24 as $1.089 billion. The forecast to finish the year was $1.084 billion. I’m actually skipping a little bit there, because…. At one point the minister has said that we have had the lar - gest increase in spending on policing.

I don’t know if it was ever or something along those lines. [4:15 p.m.] The final forecast was there, but this year’s budget, we’re up to $1.137 billion and then going up, forecasted for next year at $1.139 billion. At this point, it doesn’t seem like a large increase. Perhaps you could comment on that and where the increase is. Hon. Garry Begg: The overall budget for the ministry is $1,137,182,000, which represents a $54.054 million in - crease, or 5 percent, from ’24-25. Reconciliation of the budget changes is detailed elsewhere.

The overall increase since ’24-25 includes the follow - ing: $27.9 million for RCMP wage increase; $6.596 million for wage-related increases; $5.01 million for crime assist - ance program modernization; $5 million for body-worn cameras; $1.798 million for First Nations and Inuit poli - cing; $1.69 million for electronic supervision to support the increased costs to monitor offenders; and $1.484 mil - lion for coroners’ operational pressures.

There’s $1.096 million for the Fire Safety Act; $606,000 for police modernization; $175,000 for minister’s office adjustments, which include the creation of the Ministry of State for Community Safety; $2.669 million primarily for the Nanaimo Correctional Centre, public safety programs, corrections food services, contracts from Budget 2024 and minor incremental budgets in the 2023 decisions. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. So we have the number of provincial police officers. Do we have the total number of active police officers in B.C.?

Would we have a breakdown, even provincially, for five years ago until now? [4:20 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: We’re attempting to get the answer that you require and, perhaps, are able to get it in the next short while. In the interim, you should feel free to ask an - other question, if you wish. Bryan Tepper: I don’t know if it’s a program or an or - ganizational group, but it was called “future directions,” involved in this. First Nations submitted suggestions on how to improve policing. Do we have a report on what came of those? [4:25 p.m.] Hon. G arry Begg: I’ll give you now two answers, be -

2210 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 cause there’s one that we’ve held in abeyance until we could get what we needed to know. The Police Resources in B.C., 2023 , published by the ministry…. The authorized strength of police agencies in B.C. was 10,843. That’s a report published in 2023, which is the latest report. To answer about First Nations policing, ministry staff have directly connected with 87 First Nations and modern treaty Nations and several Indigenous leadership organ - izations to guide their work.

Compiling and receiving the feedback, including recent submissions, is ongoing now from additional First Nations leaders. Bryan Tepper: Thank you for the answer. Perhaps I could just put this for a later answer, if we can get how many police officers there were. I’m going to say in 2018 as well — just the difference between the two, if that was the latest report. I’ll move on. I think I have enough time for one more question and answer before it is the Third Party’s time. I will say I happened to be listening to a radio inter - view, because the minister is very engaging.

He did say some things I had questions about during the interview, one being talking about the RCMP and saying he wanted to make changes. I would ask what changes he would like to make. The minister did go on to say the RCMP could not make those changes. I’m curious why they wouldn’t be. I will throw in the last here, if you can separate that into this one. The minister also said the Premier made overtures with the federal government, making success on bail reform. Can we get an update on what kind of suc - cess he did have? Thank you, Minister. [4:30 p.m.] Hon.

Garry Begg: We’ve come up with the math that you suggested. The total authorized strength, in all of the police agencies in B.C. in 2018, was 10,312. You’ll know that that’s not a significant difference. For your question about the Bail Reform Act, I ob - viously can’t speak for the Premier or the Attorney Gen - eral, but they advised that they did make progress. One of the important things they were able to stress is that people living in British Columbia are concerned about repeat and violent offending in our communities and the threat to public safety that these offenders pose.

The current situation in British Columbia requires that we take urgent action to address elements of the bail sys - tem that make it difficult to hold people who commit re- peat violent offences in custody and to ensure the bail sys - tem is functioning as intended. That, I think, adequately states the position of both the Premier and the Attorney General in their dealings with Ottawa. Rob Botterell: I have a series of questions that I’ll raise over the next hour. Before I begin, I just wanted to express my appreciation to the minister and the minister’s staff for your efforts and work.

This is a very important ministry, and I really ap - preciate your taking the time to answer these questions and continue the important work of this ministry. I just want to thank you for all of that. I’d like to start with a question related to the B.C. con - servation officer service. I recognize that in some cases, these questions may have been canvassed. If that’s the case, I’m hoping you could summarize your answers to others for the benefit of those constituents and others watching today.

Multiple organizations in this province have raised concerns about a lack of oversight for the B.C. conserva - tion officer service, from their police-like arming to the increasingly high number of black bears unnecessarily killed by officers to wolf culls. How is your ministry ensuring that the conservation officer service has proper oversight mechanisms or in - dependent bodies to improve transparency, accountability and public trust? [4:35 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: First of all, I was on the Committee on Reforming the Police Act.

This is one of the questions that came up there and caused us significant concern, so much so that we recommended it in the special committee. Bringing the conservation officer service under the jurisdiction of a policing oversight agency is a significant policy change. However, the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General has worked with the Ministry of Environment to develop a proposal to apply independent oversight of the conservation officer service. Direction on this proposal to be implemented is pend - ing.

In the interim, in the absence of a new policy, com - plaints can be made about the conduct of conservation of - ficers. If a conservation officer commits some sort of mis - conduct as part of their general employment duties, this proceeds to the conservation officer service professional standards unit and to the Public Service Agency. Complaints that relate to the improper exercise or per - formance of a constabulary duty or the neglect to exercise their constabulary duties can be made under the Special Provincial Constable Complaints and Discipline Regula - tion under the Police Act.

Rob Botterell: Could the minister give us a timeline for the independent oversight proposal being implemented? Hon. Garry Begg: This is a very active file by the min - istry, but I cannot give you a specific date upon which it will come into effect.

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2211 Rob Botterell: Thank you, Minister. The lack of oversight and regulation concerning the conservation officer service has not only resulted in poor ecological management but has also raised ethical and fi - nancial concerns. The wolf cull is one example of this. Since 2015, 2,192 wolves have been killed, often inhumanely, costing B.C. taxpayers over $10 million. Will this government commit to ending the wolf cull and improving transparency and oversight in its upcom - ing proposal to prevent similar issues in the future? [4:40 p.m.] Hon.

Garry Begg: Oversight regarding policy decisions with respect to wildlife management issues is under the Ministry of Environment. Rob Botterell: I’d like to shift gears to police account - ability and trust. While this budget saw a notable increase in funding towards policing, public confidence in the po - lice remains low. The service plan forecasts for 2024 find that only 45 percent of British Columbians have a lot of confidence in the RCMP. What is this government’s plan to promote public trust in the RCMP and local municipal police, and what fund - ing exists in this year’s budget to do so? Hon.

Garry Begg: We’re doing a number of things to bolster the reputation of the policing community here in British Columbia. One of the things that comes to mind, for example, is police boards. The police boards have conduct over the performance of police in their jurisdiction, and it’s im - portant that they receive the training so that they can be a reflection of what the community wants in their police department. [4:45 p.m.] We always talk about the visible presence of the police in the community.

In order for police work to be done, it must be seen to be done, which means, in policing, that the police must be out there and be seen to be doing their job. The best ambassadors for the police are the police. Their conduct, their deportment, the way they treat the community is a reflection of their values. That’s some - thing that has been instilled in policing since it began, historically. We recognize, for example, in this province, a large number of Indigenous people who have come into con - tact with police and are unhappy with the result.

We have undergone and are continuing to encourage the policing community to ensure that the Indigenous community, the BIPOC community, those who are disenfranchised or less enfranchised because of their position in society are treated equally. That’s something that we’re committed to, and we will continue to do. Rob Botterell: Thank you, Minister. The ministry’s service plan includes a target this year of 46 percent of British Columbians who have complete confidence or a lot of confidence in the RCMP. This is only one percentage point higher than the forecasts from last year.

The minister has outlined the importance of training of police boards, the importance of a visible presence and the approach to that in the community, the importance of tailoring, if you will, the approach to policing to better re - flect the needs and interests of Indigenous people. I guess there are really two questions. Can the minis - ter identify any other barriers to improving public trust in police and describe the ministry’s approach to addressing those barriers, or are those the main three? Secondly, why are the targets for public trust so low? This is only one percentage point higher than last year.

What it conveys is that there is really one in two British Columbians who doesn’t have confidence in our approach to policing. Certainly the ministry is very committed to the work it does and increasing the degree of confidence, but why are we only shooting for a 1 percent increase this year? [4:50 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: The numbers that you picked are numbers from the Angus Reid Institute. That was con - ducted nationally.

It is an indicator, certainly, of the con - fidence that some Canadians have in policing, but I think it’s important, as well, that we consider what has actually been done to help boost public confidence here in British Columbia in policing. The police in British Columbia have chosen to in - volve the community in their policing. They’ve done that by setting up situation tables which involve community members, leaders in the community, leaders in business, leaders in commerce, leaders in thought in the commun - ity. They’ve set up CSTEP as a program to better integrate people.

We’ve spent, in this province, more than $233 mil - lion in new policing. What we’re trying to do to improve the image of police is to improve the quality of involvement of the community with the police. We find that if the community is involved with policing, they become more dedicated to policing; the policing members become more familiar with their groups. So enhancing the image of policing, from our point of view, is best done by the police themselves in the community doing the work that has to be done. Now, we recognize that much of the work may not be police work, the per se police work.

It may be more so - cial work in the sense that it is responding to the needs of community members, but I think that is what is required. Policemen must be reminded that they are servants of the public. They are not free to do what they will. They are free to respond to the needs of the community.

2212 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 We’re encouraging them, through police boards and internal training, to ensure that the work they do is fo - cused on making the changes in the community that are required by the community. [4:55 p.m.] Rob Botterell: Each community will face its own chal - lenges in terms of policing. Certainly, what we see are some communities where the challenge of policing is very high, very intense, is very difficult for the police. And it involves a much higher degree of workplace stress and im - pact than other communities.

A comparison that I can draw, just to illustrate the point, is…. I grew up in Oak Bay here in Victoria. Not to take anything away from the hard-working Oak Bay po - lice, I will say that it was a pretty quiet community. It was rare there was much in the way of an exciting or danger - ous event to deal with. Compare that to Victoria. Victoria police face significant work stress and challenges on an almost daily basis.

Has consideration been given by the ministry to amal - gamation of police forces in the capital region to create a working environment that includes some of the quieter areas within the region and some of the more intense, in order to enable the police force to manage that degree of stress for its individual officers, on an ongoing basis, to a lower level? Hon. Garry Begg: Harkening back to my own days as a policeman, it was fairly evident to me as a young police - man in Burnaby that not all the criminals were in Bur - naby. They were elsewhere. They didn’t restrict to the boundaries that I was confined to.

There is an anomaly in police work that delegates police authority to a particular area that only applies to them. It doesn’t apply to the crim- inal element. In areas like Victoria, this is something that we con - sidered on the Special Committee on Reforming the Po - lice Act. There was a consistent feeling that this was a perfect place to amalgamate the police agencies. You will know that by and large, many of the police depart - ments here in Victoria have joint squads that operate interjurisdictionally. Recently there has been an effort here in Victoria to make that happen. It makes sense.

It makes sense geo - graphically. Even from a fiscal point of view, the econ - omies of scale that can be applied are at work here. So my direct answer to your question is that it’s certainly some - thing that is being considered. [5:00 p.m.] It’s not something that will be led by the province. It will be led by the municipalities here in Victoria — per - haps in Kelowna and that area, too, which has a large expanded population and duplication of many police agencies. Rob Botterell: Thank you, Minister.

Earlier we discussed and you touched on, Minister, the Indigenous policing and the nature of police services pro - vided to Indigenous communities. The service plan in - cludes a commitment to include DRIPA in the promotion of public safety. My question to the minister is: how does your govern - ment intend to implement DRIPA with respect to its ef - forts to promote police accountability and public trust? Hon. Garry Begg: This government is committed to the principles of DRIPA.

I am sure you will be pleased to know that we have worked hand in hand consistently with our First Nations to ensure that we work in lockstep with them so that the principles of DRIPA are upheld. There is constant consul - tation between the groups involved so that happens. Rob Botterell: Thank you, Minister. Minister, you’ve indicated that all changes to policing have been in consultation with First Nations communities. Yet our understanding is that board members of the B.C. First Nations Justice Council say they were not consulted on any of the changes brought in Bill 17 last year.

How is this ministry, your ministry, ensuring that any reforms to policing the Police Act are done in consultation and with the participation of organizations like the B.C. First Nations Justice Council? [5:05 p.m.] Hon. G arry Begg: Phase 1 amendments were intro - duced in April 2024 and covered 21 topics over 170 clauses: amendments to 84 sections of the Police Act; 41 sections added to the Police Act; consequential amendments to 74 sections of 22 other acts; and the focus on municipal po - lice governance and oversight, the law enforcement con - tinuum and miscellaneous topics.

Coordination and consultation have occurred and con - tinue with the B.C. First Nations Justice Council, First Nations Leadership Council, Métis Nations B.C., the Al - liance of B.C. Modern Treaty Nations, B.C. First Nations and modern treaty Nations — all invited; and the Local Government Policing Modernization Roundtable; and the Union of B.C. Municipalities. [5:10 p.m.] We continue to meet with the Indigenous groups I am advised weekly, as this process is continuing. Rob Botterell: It’s helpful to have that information on the record and certainly draw that to the attention of the board members of the B.C.

First Nations Justice Council. Much has been said over the course of estimates and, certainly, in other forums about the Special Committee on Reforming the Police Act and the implementation of transformative change. It’s been three years, and it would

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2213 be helpful to have a fairly detailed picture of the minister’s timeline and approach to full implementation of the Police Act reforms. Where are we at? Which ones are left? How will the funding be set to complete this work? And what is the timeline for completion, 100 percent implementation? Hon. Garry Begg: As I noted earlier, phase 1 of the policing and public safety modernization initiative intro - duced the Police Amendment Act, 2024, which received royal assent on April 25, 2024, as an initial legislative re - form step.

To date, we’ve implemented three recommen - dations from the special committee’s report. For example, municipal councils now have the author - ity to determine who their representative will be on the police board and will allow members of the police board to elect their chair and vice-chair. Before the mayor was automatically the representative on the board. As well, we’ve implemented seven recommendations from the 2019 Special Committee to Review the Police Complaint Process. For example, the Police Complaint Commissioner can now call a public hearing earlier in mis- conduct investigations.

That’s now in its second phase, including regulation development from phase 1, focusing on additional poli - cing and public safety reforms through broad consultation and cooperation with stakeholders and partners. We’re also focused on co-development of policies and legislation with Indigenous partners and local govern - ments, as recommended by the special committee.

This work takes time to ensure meaningful in-depth consulta - tion and engagement on proposed policies is completed, and we look forward to providing an update as appropriate. [5:15 p.m.] Rob Botterell: As a follow-up to the question, are there any recommendations that the government does not in - tend to implement? Hon. Garry Begg: We’re committed to reviewing all of the recommendations.

Rob Botterell: The minister recently said that this gov - ernment would be open to implementing a fourth option for 911, specifically for mental-health-related emergen - cies, as this is another example that’s consistent with the recommendations from the Special Committee on Re - forming the Police Act. Can the minister describe what this plan would look like and how soon we can expect this vital change? Mental health issues are a top priority. Hon. Garry Begg: As I committed earlier, we are re - viewing the fourth line as an option.

Currently, if someone is in distress, our 911 call-tak - ers and dispatchers will assign mental health and police teams in communities where they are available and on duty. Rob Botterell: This government has committed itself to implementing the calls for justice developed from the national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Can the minister speak in some detail to this govern - ment’s progress on the calls for justice and the funding in this year’s budget that exists for this important work? [5:20 p.m.] Hon.

Garry Begg: My ministry supports a number of initiatives to help prevent and address the violence faced by Indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people, includ - ing $10 million for 70 new sexual assault services pro - grams, which commenced in 2023, which are Indigenous- focused programs; and continued operation of FILU, the family information liaison unit, which provides front-line support to families of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Also, the establishment of path forward community fund in 2022, developed and administered by the B.C.

As - sociation of Aboriginal Friendship Centres, to meet the needs for Indigenous-led capacity building and safety planning and help Indigenous communities and organ - izations create and implement their own culturally safe solutions. Over 750 projects funded since 2014-2015 through the civil forfeiture office grants program that focuses entirely on Indigenous women and girls.

Rob Botterell: Does the minister plan to create an in - dependent unit or task force with oversight from Indigen - ous communities to ensure there is a proper and culturally sensitive review of unresolved files of missing and mur - dered Indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people? Hon. Garry Begg: There has not been an independent unit formed because of our ability within the RCMP prov - incial police service, with specialized squads, to tackle issues like this.

They’re at work, they’re existent in the RCMP as we speak, and there is no special group formed to do that work. [5:25 p.m.] It is work that is inclusive already in our budget, in the $233 million that we’ve expended on this project, and it is inclusive and included in that. Rob Botterell: Thank you, Minister. We’ve canvassed this in this session. I’d like to can - vass it again. Many have raised concerns about the pat - tern of misconduct and violence committed by the critical response units, or CRU, including from the Civilian Re - view and Complaints Commission, municipal officials,

2214 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2025 human rights organizations like Amnesty International, independent police watchdogs and First Nations groups. So this is not an isolated complaint. These are not iso - lated concerns. There are a range of individuals, entities, oversight organizations that have raised these concerns.

During question period earlier this session, the min - ister said the CRU will “do things as they’ve always done things, with fairness to all involved.” Can the minister explain what he means by this and, given the range of concerns raised, whether, in his opinion, the CRU has always acted fairly, especially considering the range of concerns that have been raised? [5:30 p.m.] [Lorne Doerkson in the chair.] Hon. Garry Begg: I want to reaffirm that I expect in all cases that the critical response unit will act fairly at all times.

We have taken steps to set targets to support them in their training and their outreach. This promotes within them the ability to provide direction to crew and to achieve its goals. A principle that I work on, that we work on, is fairness. Again, the expectation is that with the training provided to them, with their targets set out, they will, in all things, act fairly. Rob Botterell: Thank you, Minister. I just want to express my appreciation to the minister and the staff once again for the helpful answers to the questions. That’ll be the conclusion of my questioning.

Brent Chapman: We haven’t got a lot of time, so I’ll keep it pretty simple and straightforward with about three subjects. ICBC’s no-fault insurance. Overview of ICBC’s no- fault insurance model. In May 2021, ICBC transitioned to a no-fault insurance system known as enhanced care. This model was intro - duced to reduce insurance premiums and streamline the claims process by eliminating the need to establish fault in most motor vehicle accidents under the system.

Individ - uals involved in accidents receive predetermined benefits for medical care and income replacement, but their ability to sue for damages is significantly limited. This is from the Victoria Times Colonist: “‘The beneficiaries of the old litigation-based ICBC system were lawyers, not victims,’ says B.C.’s Pre - mier.

No-fault insurance, or the enhanced care model, introduced in May 2021 to provide set amounts of compensation by injury type to victims regardless of fault, without a referral, eliminated most victims’ right to sue. “The goal of the no-fault system was to ensure bil - lions of dollars that were going to legal fees and pain and suffering and injury claims instead went to im - prove benefits, immediate treatment and compensa - tion, as well as generating low basic rates and rebates for policyholders.” We’ve seen a bit of that. “This month the Premier announced” — this was when this

article came out — “a fourth rebate, to be delivered May through July to about 3.6 million policyholders, at a cost of $400 million, due to the corporation’s projected revenue of about $1.3 billion.” But it’s a different story in practice. “Last July Victoria lawyer Tim Schober, who was left a quadriplegic after he was hit by a vehicle while cyc - ling August ’21” — that’s 2021 — “launched a civil claim in B.C.’s Supreme Court against the province, with the Trial Lawyers Association of B.C. as the second plaintiff, arguing that no-fault insurance legis - lation discriminated against individuals based on the cause of their disability. “Schober has argued that ICBC’s revenue gains come at the expense of catastrophic injury victims like himself, who are compensated their full working wage and can’t sue for higher compensation for pain and suffering. “The Premier said one of the commitments that the government made when they brought in the new system was a review at the five-year mark of the implementation.” A lot of innocent people can fall through the cracks over five years.

There are more stories in the news. In late 2024, Maria Espedido, a caregiver and a hit-and- run accident victim, cannot receive fair compensation for her severe injuries. Last Christmas she had a GoFundMe page. That’s what she had to do to try to make ends meet at Christmas. In fact, I donated and challenged the mem - bers opposite to chip in, but I didn’t witness anyone taking up the challenge. Then there’s retired firefighter John Wakefield. In May 2023, the Vernon man was hit while riding his bike. He had multiple broken ribs, broken scapula, broken collar - bone, concussion and began to struggle mentally.

In De - cember 2023, ICBC cut him off and said his PTSD was from another incident when he was an RCMP officer. The ICBC assessor had never actually met with Mr. Wakefield. [5:35 p.m.] As we ponder these stories, it’s important to know that ICBC currently sits on a $19.5 billion investment fund. Prior to implementing no-fault, ICBC used premiums paid by ratepayers to cover future contingent losses. With the implementation of no-fault, there are no future tort losses. Thus, the following question arises. One, here’s my question to the minister.

When is ICBC going to reimburse ICBC ratepayers the premiums paid in advance for future contingent losses that will never occur because of no-fault?

Tuesday, May 6, 2025 British Columbia Debates 2215 Hon. Garry Begg: Enhanced care, the current system that we’re under, pays for needed care when it’s needed. It does not need to pay for future costs. When the need arises for the victim of the accident, it is paid then. So that need for future losses is not required. Under the old system, of course, there would be litiga - tion involved, and the lawyer would take 30 percent of the payments. Under our system now, 96 percent of all pay - ments go to the policyholder.

Brent Chapman: The NDP government took $1 bil - lion from the ICBC coffers and put it into general revenue. There was legislation for this. However, it is really an un - fair additional tax on vehicle owners. Question 2: when are they going to pay that money back? [5:40 p.m.] Hon. Garry Begg: This is the government that passed legislation to make it impossible for the government to take capital from ICBC. In fact, it was the prior govern - ment that did that. We’ve never done that. [The bells were rung.] The C hair: Member, just take a quick pause while the bells ring. Brent

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20250506pm Hansard n57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20250506pm Hansard n57
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	acd7c9717129ec3def9ae9c042b7ce2c3452d446

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