May 14, 2001 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 25

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings, the Chair would like to welcome to

the House of Assembly today, forty-six Grade 5 students from Larkhall Academy in

the District of St. John's North. They are accompanied by teachers: Ralph Cann

and Jackie Pottle, and parent chaperones: Nellie Bentum, Keith Ireland, Janis

King and Bridget Miller.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to recognize a Corner Brook teacher who was recently honoured in

Ottawa for the contribution that he is making to the education of Corner Brook's

youth.

Mr. Speaker, while all teachers play a pivotal role in the lives of our young

people, some excel. Mr. Fred Carberry, a physical education teacher at Herdman

Collegiate, is one such teacher.

This past Thursday at a special ceremony on Parliament Hill, Mr. Carberry was

awarded a Prime Ministerial Certificate of Achievement in recognition of his

efforts in providing his students with the tools to become good citizens, to

develop and grow as individuals, and to contribute to Canada's growth,

prosperity and well-being.

Mr. Carberry was one of seven educators from across Newfoundland and Labrador

who were so recognized this year. In my dealings with parents, there is

absolutely no doubt that Mr. Carberry's innovative teaching methods and

philosophies are having a tremendous impact on the students of Herdman

Collegiate.

Mr. Speaker, I, and the Member for the Bay of Islands, personally thank Mr.

Carberry for the job that he is doing for our youth and we ask this hon. House

to join with us in congratulating him on being recognized by his peers for this

outstanding award.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate Mr. Charles Taylor and the members

of the Kiwanis Club of Kelligrews for raising in excess of $15,000 to go towards

the purchase of a St. John Ambulance for the Conception Bay South area.

The members of the Kiwanis Club have been very busy raising these funds

through various fundraising efforts, such as giving up their weekends and Friday

nights to sell tickets at places like Sobeys and Dominion stores, and they are

still proceeding with flipper dinners and this type of thing.

I would like to offer them and, of course, Mr. Dan Lewis, the president of

the Kiwanis Club of Kelligrews, my sincere congratulations on raising this money

to help, as I said, buy a new St. John Ambulance for our community.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise in this hon. House today to congratulate the Carbonear Salvation Army

Corps on their 115 th Anniversary serving the Carbonear region.

Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to be part of the Corps anniversary supper over

the weekend, along with special guests Major and Mrs. Hicks, who served in

Carbonear in the early 1970's.

I want to thank the Carbonear Corps Officers, Captains Clarence and Karen

Ingram for their hospitality to me over the weekend, and congratulate the

Carbonear Salvation Army Corps for their service to the area over the past 115

years. I look forward to the local Salvation Army serving many more years in the

community and urge all citizens to support the Salvation Army's Red Shield

Appeal this year.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to congratulate Jamie Lawrence, a Grade 5 student from my

district, who was one of two overall winners at the Avalon Regional Heritage

Fair which was held at Amalgamated Academy, Bay Roberts, on Friday and Saturday,

May 11 and May 12. He was one of 160 students in Grade 4 to Grade 9 from

twenty-eight schools in the Avalon East and West school districts presenting

something like ninety-three heritage projects. Three communication awards were

presented to commemorate the 100 th Anniversary of Marconi reception

of the wireless message from England at Cabot Tower in 1901. Eight honorable

mentions were awarded and twelve projects were selected for public display

during the summer months at the Newfoundland Museum.

Two projects were selected to participate in the National Heritage Fair in

Kamloops, British Columbia, from July 9-16. At this fair, some 165 students from

ten provinces and three territories of Canada will present a National Heritage

Showcase and students will participate in a week of heritage-related field trips

and workshops.

Fifteen students will represent Newfoundland and Labrador at the National

Fair, having been selected from eight regional fairs which took place this past

weekend around the Province. Two students will be representing the Avalon

Region: one is Jamie Lawrence, a Grade 5 student at All Hallows Elementary in

North River, whose project founded on The Ocean Ranger; the other is Katie Gale,

a Grade 6 student from Cowan Heights Elementary, St. John's, whose project -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

- Katie Gale, a Grade 6 student from Cowan Heights Elementary, St. John's,

whose project founded on the history of the Salvation Army in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

Congratulations are expressed on their efforts, and certainly on the efforts

of all the students, to conduct research on a heritage topic and to share that

information with others. Congratulations are also extended to all the

volunteers, the teachers and parents, whose efforts made this fair the great

success that it was.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker I rise in the House today to advise members of the projects that

have been approved under the Municipal Capital Works Program and provide a

status report on projects that have been proposed for funding under the

Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program pending sanction under the Canadian

Environmental Assessment Act.

On May 7, 2001, $51.5 million was announced to be spent this year on 172

infrastructure projects. This includes 100 projects to be funded through the

Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Agreement at a total cost of $34 million and

about seventy-two projects under the Municipal Capital Works Program at an

additional cost of $17 million.

Mr. Speaker, this year, the Province is providing $27 million of the $51.5

million total for municipal infrastructure, $16 million under the

Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Agreement and a further $11 million under

Municipal Capital Works. This is an increase of $7 million over last year and

clearly demonstrates our commitment to strengthening rural communities. The

municipal share of project costs in some rural communities will be less than 10

per cent. As a result, municipalities which could not undertake projects at

traditional 50/50 cost-sharing ratios, can now afford to complete important

water and sewer system improvements.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LANGDON: I spoke last week of the $2.1 million which will be spent

this year to install or upgrade municipal water disinfection systems.

Municipalities are being provided 100 per cent funding, up to a maximum of

$100,000 to help those currently on boil water advisories. This is part of

government's $11 million multi-year commitment to water disinfection. I also

spoke about the additional $15.6 million we will spend on other water quality

issues, including seven water treatment systems. We fully expect to improve the

supply and quality of water for ninety-eight communities with a population of

147,000.

This year's $17.7 million commitment to water quality is part of a total

investment toward water and sewer projects of $32 million. This represents over

62 per cent of the $51.5 million expenditure on municipal infrastructure.

Mr. Speaker, the federal, provincial and municipal governments are all

placing a high priority on water quality and sewage treatment. In recognition of

the fact that in previous years, smaller communities often could not afford to

participate in infrastructure programs, we have introduced new variable

cost-sharing guidelines which will see the Province pay a larger share of the

costs for water and sewer projects. These new guidelines take into consideration

such factors as community size, tax base and ability to raise revenue, thus

making it more affordable for rural municipalities.

Other significant infrastructure investments include $6.5 million for road

reconstruction and paving, and $5.5 million for municipal buildings, fire trucks

and recreation.

The Infrastructure Agreement also provides $3.5 million for waste management.

This funding will be used to promote regional waste management and a reduction

in the number of waste disposal sites in the Province.

Over the next day or so, I will be releasing details on most of the

seventy-two projects to be funded this year under the Municipal Capital Works

Program at a total cost of approximately $17 million. This program should be

fully rolled out by month's end. Details of the 100 projects to be funded

under the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program will be announced in

accordance with the agreement over the next 2-3 weeks.

Mr. Speaker, I am very encouraged by the cooperative direction that the three

levels of government have taken toward achieving our infrastructure goals this

year. With governments increased commitment of $7 million over last year's

expenditures, we are progressive in developing the infrastructure needs of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of his statement in

advance. I will say minister, we are always glad to see money which is going

into infrastructure in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador because

goodness only knows exactly how bad this is needed. I can only trust, minister,

that these allocations, when they are finally announced, will be allocations

based on need, and I mean need.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: When I spoke in the House the other day, I trust it is not

need of Liberal members but the need of all Members of this hon. House of

Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

When the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs talks about money being

spent on boil water orders and problems, he reminds me of a former leader of his

party who used to tell you what he was going to say, then he would say it, and

then he would tell you what he said.

Aside from that, Mr. Speaker, the expenditures for municipal capital works

around Newfoundland and Labrador are very important and positive. I think the

flexibility and funding for those municipalities, who cannot afford even the 50

per cent, is very important to ensuring that we do have an equality of services

in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I, too, hope that when we see the actual

list of expenditures that we ensure that it is done on a proper basis of

priority and need, and not for political expediency.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to

inform my hon. colleagues that the forest fire season is once again upon us. The

2001 forest fire season has been officially declared for the Island portion of

the Province. Having taken effect as of midnight May 11, the season will

continue until midnight September 16. The forest fire season for Labrador will

commence midnight May 18 and end on midnight October 7.

I would like to remind the public that in accordance with forest fire

regulations, burning permits are required for lighting outdoor fires for the

purpose of clearing land or burning brush within 300 metres of a forest land.

Permits are available at forestry offices throughout the Province.

Mr. Speaker, despite the fact that we were confronted with the most snowfall

witnessed in recent memory this past winter, it is important to remember that

snow cover in some wooded areas of the Province can change quickly with warm dry

weather, and this was demonstrated last week with eleven forest fires starting

off our season - ten of which were in the Avalon/Eastern region and one in

Central Newfoundland. These fires have been extinguished and no others were

recorded over the weekend.

Our forest fire suppression staff are ready to serve the public in protecting

our forest when and were required Mr. Speaker. Staff in my department were busy

throughout the winter servicing and performing tests on fire suppression

equipment, such as pumps, hoses and back tanks. In addition, test runs of the

Province's fleet of six water bombers have taken place to ensure that they are

ready for the forest fire season. Four of these aircraft will be stationed on

the Island, while two will be stationed in Labrador. My department sent one

water bomber to New Brunswick on May 9 to assist that province with their forest

fire suppression operations. We have also acquired the services of one extra

support aircraft for operation for the 2001 season providing the Island and

Labrador with one each. Four long ranger helicopters are on full-time standby

and will be strategically stationed at St. John's, Gander, Pasadena and Goose

Bay.

Mr. Speaker, improving the knowledge and capability of staff also remains a

priority of my department. During the winter, twenty-nine staff members received

specialized training in Intermediate Forest Fire Behaviour. Increasing knowledge

of forest fires improves our forest fire suppression efforts, which leads to the

better protection of our forest resource and personal property.

Mr. Speaker, with the May 24 holiday weekend upon us, I urge everyone to be

extra careful this coming weekend and ask them to please ensure that all fires

are properly extinguished. We should never forget the damage fires can do to our

forest, wildlife and the environment.

I want to assure the public we are ready for the 2001 forest fire season and

remain committed to protecting our valuable forest resources for all of its

users. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I ask everyone to be ` fire smart ' when

in or near the woods during the 2001 summer season.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for forwarding a copy of his statement.

I, too, Mr. Speaker, realize the importance of our forest resources, the

importance of being ready and protecting the resource. Most of my district

depends on and primarily exists because of the forest industry. Mr. Speaker,

without the great forest industry that we have a lot of the jobs in rural

Newfoundland would not be there.

I think it is very important that we educate our youth and educate our public

in the importance of it, and how we can do things to protect personal property

too, Mr. Speaker, because we do lose a lot of things other than trees when it

comes to forest fires.

I would just like to stress to the public, as well, the importance of

protecting our forests, Mr. Speaker, and urge the public to be extra careful

this weekend and all summer. Hopefully we will not have a really bad forest fire

season this year.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join with the minister and the Opposition critic to encourage

the public to be very fire smart, I think, is the phrase, and to be wise in the

use of our forests.

I recognize that fire suppression and forest fire safety is an important part

of the minister's and government's obligation with respect to forestry. I

would say also, Mr. Speaker, that a proper management of our forest land and

recognition of the various values that are there, including the very important

forest industry, as well as recreation and other uses, is also very important,

and an area which requires some leadership, I would say, Mr. Speaker, from the

minister and from government in dealing with the competing interests in the

salvation of and use of our forest resources in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Environment.

Over a year ago, this government started with a policy to ban bulk exports.

They went as far as to introduce legislation in this House which each and every

last one of them voted for. Shortly after the current Premier became Premier

they took an about face and said they were in favour of bulk exports. After the

public outcry, they then said: No, all we are trying to do is open up a public

discussion on it. Yet, today we see clearly that the current Premier on his

trade mission to Atlanta opened up the door again and said they were in favour

of shipping out bulk water from this Province.

My question to the minister is this: You have gone through about four shifts

of policy on this issue in the last three months, can you tell me and anyone

else what your policy truly is today, and will it be the same tomorrow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Actually, what the Premier did say was that he was going to undertake to

explore all the information that was possible, and at the fall sitting of the

House put it before the people of this House for proper discussion. What the

Premier has done is appointed a committee of ministers, chaired by the hon. the

Minister of Justice, to collect this information, and at the appropriate time we

will begin that discussion.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this must be the minister reporting slightly

out of the loop. Here is what the Premier said yesterday, quoted in The Globe

and Mail , he can read it. I am not allowed to quote directly from it, so I

will not. He said that the bulk export of water is something we should probably

do. That is what he said. He did not say he was going to examine it yesterday.

He said: It is something we should probably do.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: I would like to ask the minister again: What is your

policy? Will you stand up and state it for the people of the Province? If you

cannot, can you tell us why this schizophrenic policy on bulk water is going on

by you and your government?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, the Chair does not want to interrupt Question Period but I want to

remind the hon. member that questions ought to be directed through the Chair to

government and ought to be put in third person. So again, I ask members to keep

that in mind.

The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I guess to use the Premier's own words: Words are important. What you have

just read to me: He said that probably we should have shipments of bulk water.

Again, what the Premier has said is that he has appointed a committee of

ministers to look at all of the information, to gather all of the information

that is available, and present that information a few months down the road so

that everybody in the Province can have a clear understanding of what all the

information is about.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that is not what the

Premier said. There are many great Newfoundland sayings; one of them my

grandmother used often. It talked about a birch broom in the fits that had no

direction. That is what this government is like, Mr. Speaker, with respect to

this public policy issue -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: - just like a birch broom in the fits.

I would like to ask him this question. The Premier has indicated that he is

not just talking about Gisborne Lake, that he is talking about shipping water

from every pond, river or stream where you can hook up a pipe and put it to a

tanker. Is that the new policy, Mr. Speaker? I ask the minister: Is that the new

policy the Premier is talking about?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: The same answer, Mr. Speaker. I am only hearing what

the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has read, that the Premier says probably.

We all know what the legislation says in this Province and we all know that the

information will be gathered. I say to the member opposite: Just sit tight, we

will have the information. We have quite a bit of information accumulated

already. We will present it at an appropriate time to the people of the House.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister this question: What is the return to the

Province, and to the people of the Province, for bulk water exports? Bulk

exports do not produce very many jobs, benefits or spin-offs. I would like to

ask the minister this question: Is the minister counting on royalties from this

resource in terms of the Premier's now public commitment to exporting bulk

water? Is he counting on royalties? If so, what kind of royalties does this

government expect to get from the bulk water shipment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance, on a point of order.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I know this is unusual but I think that the

member opposite used a term in a very derogatory way. He used the term

schizophrenic in a way that was not complimentary, associated with mental

health. I think, in all fairness, there are many ways to describe a policy. I

think it is misuse of the word and those in the mental health community would be

as offended as I was in the use of that term. I ask him to change it and

withdraw it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair will review Hansard to see exactly what the hon.

member has said.

Again, I ask hon. members - points of order during Question Period should be

kept to the end of the Question Period.

The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to advise the Leader of the Opposition on the issue of the

bottling industry here in Newfoundland. We have some five bottling plants which

employee some twenty-eight people full-time. We did some checking across the

Province. In the Province of British Columbia they have a total of forty

bottling plants. The total amount of royalties to the Province of British

Columbia is $28,000.

Mr. Speaker, at the appropriate time we will do all the homework that needs

to be done and certainly present it to the House.

Thank you, very much.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question.

I asked him, and I will ask it again: What -

MR. REID: (Inaudible) how much we are going to make on it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Fisheries, if he wants to

(inaudible). The Premier talked about getting enough money to pay for tuition so

he must have done some research on it. Some research must have been done, I say

to the Minister of Fisheries.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: If your Premier can get up and start quoting numbers

(inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question now.

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me address, in the question, the Minister of Fisheries'

concerns. In view of the fact that the Premier speculated about the amount of

royalties and what it could do, I ask the minister this question: What about the

royalties? Have you calculated, potentially, how much royalties you will get? If

so, can you report that to the House today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has heard the Premier

say time and time again that this is not a done deal. This is something that we

are exploring. We will do everything we have to do to make sure we get at the

bottom of this, to get the accurate information, and then we will bring it

before the public. This is not a path we are going down without doing

substantial research, Mr. Speaker. At the end of the day we will have the

answers and we will put them before the public of this Province before we make a

decision on this very important issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, the questions were asked but, for the record, they were not answered.

Let me ask this question: How have discussions been going between the Province

and the federal government, vis--vis the clawback on potential royalties, on

water export? Can you update us on those, if any have occurred? If any have not

occurred, can you tell us when they will occur?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, there are always discussions ongoing with the

federal government, no matter what the issue is, of which this Province is

involved with.

On this particular issue; yes, the Premier is on a trade mission and yes, the

Prime Minister is there. I would expect that our Premier - who is very

competent, very forthright - will take advantage of every opportunity to bring

up the issue of bulk water, clawbacks and whatever else needs to be discussed as

we go forward in trying to determine whether or not this is a policy we will be

following.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this Premier and this government are so

confident that they have to spend hundreds of thousands of public dollars to

convince people of something that they know not to be true.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister this question. So there have been no

discussions with the federal government on equalization. I would like to ask -

whatever minister, the Minister of Environment, who is supposed to be in charge

of the file or whoever wants to answer it: Can they tell me if the federal

government has put a category under the equalization formula dealing with the

bulk export of water?

AN HON. MEMBER: The answer is no.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. members's

preamble, with respect to

what this government is doing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS FOOTE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are doing a good job and we want everyone

to know. Just as the members opposite will get out there and talk about what we

are doing, the public has a right to know and we want them to have confidence

and know exactly the good things this government is doing, and they know it.

Mr. Speaker, let me assure the member opposite that when discussions need to

take place, they will take place. This government will work very closely with

the federal government in all aspects of clawback so, at the end of the day,

ensure that what we can get, in terms of additional benefit to this Province,

will be forthcoming to this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Minister of Environment.

Isn't it a fact that the federal government has no category for bulk water

on the equalization formula? In other words, this government is pursuing down a

path, Mr. Speaker, to ship bulk export of water in an attempt to get royalties

when they know the federal government may, in fact, introduce 100 per cent

clawback on royalties. What assurance can the minister give the people of the

Province that the bulk export of water from our soil will not be in vain, and

will actually produce some kind of benefit at some point in the future?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, the federal government has put in place a

committee to look at this. We have no assurances whatsoever that they will not

introduce something that will require 100 per cent clawback. The member opposite

knows that. This is still an area that is being looked at by all governments,

especially this government, and certainly the federal government as well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are drinking

bottled water more and more everyday. All you have to do is look at -

MR. HARRIS: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, they have to, I say to the Member for Signal

Hill-Quidi Vidi. All you have to do is talk to retailers and they will tell you

how much of an increase - an enormous increase.

I would like to ask the Minister of Environment this question: What policy or

strategic plan does this government have in place, or about to put in place,

that will displace bottled water from other provinces and see more bottled water

from this Province on the shelves of stores in this Province, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I guess members opposite finally realized that the Minister of Education is

Deputy Premier today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, members opposite should know by now that

the Department of Environment has allotted some 185 million litres of water to

be bottled in this Province. Of that 185 million litres that has been approved

for bottling, the bottling industry in Newfoundland bottles 5.25 million litres.

In fact, I think it is somewhere of about 2.89 per cent. Of all the bottled

water that they have approved we have bottled about 2.8 per cent.

MR. J. BYRNE: You're doing a poor job.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, what the minister has done now is compliment

the private sector for doing on their own what this government has failed to do

in assisting in a strategic marketing plan for our fresh water resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: So, I will ask him again: Will he stand today and tell us

what plans this government has to ignite an industry, to market an industry, and

to produce bottled water in Newfoundland and Labrador so that we may be in a

position to sell it to the world, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

We have the same policies in place that apply to all private industry in the

Province, whatever business they choose to go into. There are incentives in

government to help them to start up those businesses and to do advertising and

so on and so forth. So, Mr. Speaker, nothing has changed in that regard.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: There is no policy; there is no plan. This government are

flying by the seat of their pants and playing footloose and fancy-free with the

hopes and aspirations of the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the minister this question: Why is it that this

government is so opposed to job creation, to creating secondary industries? Why

are they so determined to ship out all of our resources in bulk to create jobs

elsewhere in Canada and throughout the world? Why, Minister, is this government

so opposed to processing and manufacturing industries in this Province -

Newfoundland and Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, clearly there is no question there because the

member opposite is making a statement of fact on a premise that is not accurate.

We are not opposed. In fact, we work very hard to ensure that there are all

kinds of programs in place to work with the private sector to ensure that we can

maximize on every opportunity in this Province, including bottled water.

Through the Department of Industry, Trade and Rural Development, the minister

responsible and all of his officials, they work very diligently in working with

all the private sector, including those who are involved in the bottled water

business, to make sure that we have programs in place and incentives in place to

grow industries in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last week, the Minister of Environment led us to believe that this Province's

water supply is safe, that the people of this Province have nothing to worry

about, that he was doing an adequate job of testing to ensure that the quality

and safety of the water in this Province was adequate for the people to drink.

We now learn that there are communities in this Province that do not have their

water tested. I will ask the minister this: How many of the nearly 600

communities in this Province do not have regular water testing at source?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Every community in this Province, Mr. Speaker, undergoes microbiological

testing on an average of once a month.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker

The Department of Environment's Web site shows that there are only 304

communities that are tested at source for chemical content. That is disgraceful,

I say, Mr. Speaker. It is unbelievable.

Furthermore, I will ask the minister this: How can you justify saying to the

people of this Province that their water is safe when not all water supplies are

tested for chemical content? Minister, will you confirm that this number is

accurate? And, I ask you, what percentage of the population in this Province do

not have their water tested for chemical -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I just want to remind hon. members that questions ought to be directed

to the Chair - to members and ministers through the Chair - and answers

likewise. Again, I ask members to keep that in mind when they are constructing

questions.

The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I ask if the minister will answer the following question: Will

he confirm that there are only 304 communities tested for chemical content? And,

what percentage of the population do not have regular water testing of their

drinking water supplies?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

As I said, every community in this Province undergoes microbiological testing

on an average of once a month. What the member opposite is talking about,

chemical testing, Mr. Speaker, the microbiological testing is done on the

bacteria and the E.coli, which is the most acute effect that bacteria would

have, I guess, on consumers of water. So, Mr. Speaker, he is talking about two

different tests there. One is the microbiological test; the other is the

chemical test. The chemical test is associated with much longer-term effects on

water that people consume.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's

South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, I will ask the minister this: How can the

minister justify making a broad statement that this Province's water supply is

safe when there are so many communities, so many people throughout the Province,

that do not have chemical testing of their water supplies? I will ask the

minister again to confirm if there are only 304 communities in this Province

that have chemical testing of their water supplies?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I want to say that I am confident in the measures that government is taking

to ensure that the residents of the Province have access to safe drinking water,

Mr. Speaker. I think that is a pretty fair statement. As I said before, every

community in the Province undergoes microbiological testing on an average of

once a month.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are to the Minister of Finance. The Deputy Premier

indicated last week that the cost of relocating major parts of government

departments would cost close to $10 million. Others have put that cost more in

the range of $20 million to $25 million. I want to ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker, if she will table a full analysis of those costs?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am aware that when my colleague made the comments that all of the work is

not totally complete yet, and I understand the end of May is the time when most

of the affected employees will make their final decisions and we will have the

exact numbers and figures, I would commit, on behalf of my colleague, when all

of the accurate numbers and information is available, that it would be tabled.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.

The former Wells' Administration did a study showing that it would cost

about $7 million to move the air services. If the cost of moving the forestry

labs is estimated at $4 million to $5 million, these two items alone are between

$11 million and $12 million.

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister why she is trying to hide the cost,

the true cost, of those figures here on relocation in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, his voice is high and I would ask him to

listen carefully with respect to the answer, because what I said was: I am not

hiding anything, my colleague is not hiding anything; we, as government, are not

hiding anything. When all of the information is available, we will table it,

with pleasure, with bells on, Mr. Speaker. Not a problem. When the information

is complete, we will table it, no difficulty.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On a supplementary, if you take the government's figure, the Deputy Premier's

figure, of $10 million on forty-four people moving, that is a cost of about

$225,000 per person. If you took a more realistic or true cost, we would find it

is more like over $500,000 per person. Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister: How can

this government justify spending over $10 million and even possibly $25 million

- from a quarter to half a million dollars per person - when they have not

created one new job in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First, I would like to acknowledge and appreciate the accurate number is down

around forty-four as opposed to two eighty seven, which is what the original

number was.

Mr. Speaker, this policy is about making a statement to the people of this

Province that you can do business outside of St. John's, Newfoundland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this is an important statement -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - for the people of the Province to hear, to hear the

Leader of the Opposition, or the House Leader - sorry, I get confused.

AN HON. MEMBER: You would, there are so many of them over there.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: This is an important statement because the people of the

Province need to hear that this is about acknowledging that what is good for St.

John's is good for rural Newfoundland, but what is good for rural

Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, is equally as good for the city and the rest of the

Province.

Mr. Speaker, the total amount -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I would say that this will be my third time, and I will

say it again, Mr. Speaker. The government, on behalf of my colleague, will be

happy to table the information when it is complete. The members opposite know

the deadline is around the end of May, and, Mr. Speaker, it will be there for

them to see as well as anybody else.

Mr. Speaker, this is a statement that supports rural Newfoundland, and

everybody knows that there will be jobs created, there will be new industries

available, because we are recognizing the value and the ability of people in

this Province to do work outside major centres.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Finance, and it concerns video lottery

terminals in the Province.

In New Brunswick, Mr. Speaker, the VLT industry has agreed, during a

referendum, to outlaw VLTs, to contribute $2 million to the problem of gambling

addicts.

What effort is this minister making to insist, without the threat of a

referendum, that the VLT industry contribute and support programs for problem

gamblers in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, we have been very clear on our position on

VLTs and our commitment to putting the money that we have back into health care,

all components of health care.

Mr. Speaker, our health care system as it relates to mental health issues, as

it relates to provision of services for addictions, is all encompassed in the

programs we offer through Health and Community Services. There are dedicated

services as well.

Mr. Speaker, I will be very honest, the money that is gotten and received

from VLTs is put back to help us offset the cost of delivering health care

services in this Province. It is a huge amount of money, one that, in some ways,

Mr. Speaker, I wish we were not making, but I also have to acknowledge we need

it, we need it desperately. We continue to say that we need to put the money, as

much as we can - and in fact we have grown our health care budget to $1.4

billion this year. If you can single out individual pieces, like the member

opposite is trying to do, it is not accurate. Because our whole system, Mr.

Speaker, is an integrated one and one where we provide the services at many

different levels, for addictions as well as other services.

Mr. Speaker, it is a significant amount of money that we get, however it is

an amount of money that we put into our health care system to provide all kinds

of services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The amount is $99 million this year on lottery revenues, most of which comes

from video gambling. The minister knows that 5 per cent, at least, of people who

engage in VLT playing are addicted.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, and I would ask him to get to his

question.

MR. HARRIS: Would the minister tell us what she is prepared to do, in

addition to the $150,000 that is allocated towards problem gamblers in this

Province, to solve the problem that this government sponsors and creates through

the VLT program?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, as I have pointed out - and I think it is

not just for me to say; it was in the report that the health critic spoke to

last week - we spend the highest per capita amount on health care in this

Province than any other province in this country.

Mr. Speaker, in addition to the services that we provide through addiction

services, we have a very integrated, comprehensive, psychiatric and

physiological program that is available to people in this Province, through our

EAP programs that we offer as a government, through the health care corporations

and other forums; we offer counseling services on that basis. So, you cannot

isolate a single amount. We are providing comprehensive services. Would we like

to provide more? Yes. Would we like to put more money in health care? Yes, even

though we have $1.4 billion there this year. Are we growing our health care

budget faster than almost any other province? Yes, and we will continue to do

that.

Mr. Speaker, we would like to provide more services and we will continue to

grow our health care budget -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the hon. minister now to conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - so that we are able to provide those kinds of

comprehensive services to the people of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report of the

Select Committee respecting Bill 9,

An Act To Provide For The Recovery Of

Tobacco Related Health Care Costs.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a couple of comments. I commend the

Committee for having made a commitment of such a dedicated period of time where,

in a ten day period, we heard some twenty oral presentations and we reviewed

some nine written presentations.

We are tabling this report today and recommending to the House that we would,

in this sitting of the House, move unanimously this bill, moving forward and

recommending its tabling to the House.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to take a moment to respond to the point of order raised by the

Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board during Question Period.

First of all, points of order normally, under the rules of our House, should be

raised after Question Period. Having said that, I want to say to the Minister of

Finance that the commentary made by myself in debate in this House in no way was

meant to offend anybody. Schizophrenia is a very, very critical disease in this

Province, affecting many families, including my own, I say to the minister. If

you took offence, or if anyone else did, there was none meant.

I want to be very clear. My record in this House on matters of personality

and those sorts of things speaks very clearly for itself. I want to clear up the

matter raised by the President of Treasury Board, the Minister of Finance, right

here, on the record, in the House, Mr. Speaker.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased today to stand and present a petition to the House on behalf of

over 700 people in the St. Mary's Bay area of my District of Placentia &

St. Mary's. The prayer of the petition is as follows:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland, in Parliament

assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador ask for the House of Assembly to accept the following

prayer.

We, the undersigned citizens of St. Mary's Bay Center area, hereby draw

your attention to the unsatisfactory and unsafe conditions as they now exist on

Route 90 of St. Mary's Bay.

WHEREAS it is the duty of government, through the enactment and enforcement

of the Highways Safety Act, to protect its citizens not only from commuters but

also from unsafe highways; and

WHEREAS the safety of the traveling public must be the number one priority of

any government;

THEREFORE your petitioners ask that government provide the necessary funding

to carry out the much needed repairs to Route 90;

As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, over 700 people signed this petition because they are very

concerned about the highway on Route 90, which leads down into St. Mary's Bay.

Over the past winter the highway, in a lot of cases, has heaved and caused

some major holes, and not just your ordinary hole in the pavement. Some of them

have caused some major problems for commuters back and forth through that area,

with a lot of damage being done to vehicles.

I talked recently to people who drive the ambulance in the St. Mary's Bay

area. They are very, very concerned about the transporting of patients, people

who are sick, over the highway. It is just incredible how rough it is. The

petitioners feel that the government needs to address this situation in St. Mary's

Bay. It is an issue that has been ongoing for quite some time and the people

felt it necessary to present this petition to me to have brought forward to the

House. Hopefully the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is

listening.

Last week we had an announcement of some funds that were going to be spent

out of the budget for Works, Services and Transportation, going to be spent in

Placentia & St. Mary's, to the tune of $575,000, but it did not address

the concerns that were raised. It does not address the concerns that are raised

in this petition. I say to the minister today that hopefully he will find, in

his wisdom, that these people need some repairs and maintenance done to the

roads in that area, and that the prayer of the petition would be answered, Mr.

Speaker.

I put forward as one of my priorities to the department earlier the year,

this Route 90 that leads down through St. Mary's Bay, because of the fact that

each time I travel over that road myself, I know the condition of the road and

know the concern the people have there. Certainly this is a concern that the

people want addressed, if at all possible.

Therefore, I am very pleased today to present this petition. Hopefully, the

700 residents here will receive some type of answer from the minister in regard

to funding to address this concern. We have many people who travel this road on

a daily basis, Mr. Speaker, and from a safety point of view, if nothing else,

these issues need to be of concern.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MANNING: By leave, Mr. Speaker, just to finish up?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. MANNING: I understand the concerns that the government has in

addressing all the issues that are out there in relation to road safety, Mr.

Speaker, but this is a concern that the people of this area would like to have

addressed. I am pleased to present the petition on their behalf today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition today on behalf of the people of Savage

Cove in The Straits area. I will just read the prayer of the petition:

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador in legislative

session convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Savage Cove and

supporters;

WHEREAS the road in Savage Cove is in deplorable condition;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

to pave the Savage Cove road;

And as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Transportation knows, earlier this spring I

sent him a letter on the condition of roads in The Straits & White Bay North

area. In this area we have roughly 100 kilometres of gravel road. Certainly, as

he has heard me say from time to time earlier this year in the House, we have

seasonal pavement in quite a number of areas. While the snow is on the ground,

certainly the road is in great shape; but, as everybody knows, this time of the

year the snow is gone, the pavement has melted, and we have a terrible mess on

many of the roads in our district. Certainly, the Savage Cove road is no

exception, and, as a matter of fact, is one of the worst roads in the whole of

the area.

We have a fish plant out on the end of this road. The area is basically so

bad now that the Department of Transportation can do nothing with it when it

comes to grading. They grade it one day and the next day it is just as bad or

worse than it was before. There is very little left to the road, and in this

area here in the Strait of Belle Isle there has been nothing done, I say to the

minister and to the House, with the roads in this area since the late 1970s,

early 1980s when Route 430 was upgraded and paved; and the side roads in this

area have never had anything more done with them than a grader shoved over them

from time to time.

As I said, there is 100 kilometres of road in this area without pavement and

in desperate need of upgrading. We saw last week, the minister put out a release

and announced some $300,000 approximately in funding for road work in the area.

Primarily that is to do culvert work, as I see it, on Route 430. No doubt some

of that is needed, I guess, but really, if you look at the letter that was sent

to him and you look at the really pressing concerns in the district, the real

problem that we have is the 100 kilometres of gravel road and people having to

beat over it daily; buses being torn up; transport trucks that are really

running into exorbitant costs in trying to maintain them. Without some action on

this, I am sure it is going to be very difficult to carry on industry in the

area. It is hard to promote this area in tourism when, as we all know, motor

homes certainly hide away from gravel roads, and this is one of the growing

industries in our area.

I would urge the minister to look seriously at this area, the Savage Cove

road and the other roads in The Straits & White Bay North District when he

gets around to allocating the rest of his funds, and in future years -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TAYLOR: - to look seriously at all roads in this area, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Motion 3, Mr. Speaker. I move first reading of a bill entitled,

An Act To Amend The Provincial Court Act, 1991 No. 2. (Bill 20)

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General to introduce a

bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Court Act, 1991 No 2," carried.

(Bill 20)

On motion, Bill 20 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 19, Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill,

An Act To

Amend The Shops' Closing Act. Bill 19.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Shops' Closing

Act." (Bill 19)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe the minister might want to say a few words to this piece of

legislation. I would certainly sit down - I have a couple of comments - as long

as I can get back up.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave, yes.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to stand today to introduce Bill 19,

An Act To Amend The Shops'

Closing Act. I would like to give you a slight bit of background on this

particular bill. In January, 1998, when the Shops' Closing Act was passed, and

it was amended to permit Sunday shopping, we were not looking ahead at the fact

that July 1, which is Canada Day, every seven years, falls on a Sunday. This is

an amendment to correct that issue. July 1, this year, is Canada Day, which is

on a Sunday, and we want to be able to permit shops to close on that particular

day rather than closing on the next day, which would be the second. This is

really an amendment, a housekeeping issue.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to say a few words on this piece of legislation, Bill 19,

An Act

To Amend The Shops' Closing Act. The minister makes her statement with respect

to the background to this piece of legislation, and the background with respect

to this piece of legislation is so similar to the background on lots of other

legislation that comes before this House of Assembly, in that the government

tries to push legislation through the House so very often. We make points on

this side of the House and we made this very point here, from my memory. Now we

are here, some three years later, correcting this piece of legislation, making

an amendment to it, that could have easily been handled at that time.

I believe at the time we said: every seven years, July 1 is going to fall on

a Sunday. We needed to make an amendment at that time to account for that, to

allow for that.

MR. SULLIVAN: While they are amending that, every single session they are

back (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, they will be back... There have been other occasions,

too, according to the Member for Ferryland, saying that we have amended this,

this past few years, on many occasions, and most of the times on points that we

made previously.

Again, as I said earlier, we brought this up before and, of course, it is

referred to as housekeeping legislation now. It is always the word that was used

or would be used by the government when they want to change legislation that

they should have had the foresight to see the problems arising in the future,

and they did not on this piece of legislation.

On July 1, naturally, people want to be off. That is going to fall on Sunday

this year and, rightfully so, they should be off. It is a very important day in

Canada. Oftentimes we, as politicians, go to various communities within our

districts, to flag-raising ceremonies, on July 1, to honor the war dead,

actually; I suppose you would refer to it as that.

Again, there is not much more we can say on that. Hopefully the minister and

other ministers on that side of the House will take more heed in what we say on

this side of the House of Assembly.

Last week, we had the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs presenting

a piece of legislation in this House, amendments to the Municipalities Act and

the Municipal Elections Act, that probably should have been included in the

changes back a couple of years ago to the Municipalities Act, when there were

wholesale changes throughout the whole Municipalities Act, to which we again saw

amendments before the House.

As I said last week when I was on my feet speaking to the piece of

legislation that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs was putting

forth, it looked like this time he was doing it right with respect to that

particular bill, in that he had consultation with the people who were involved,

who would be impacted. We, as the Opposition, had a presentation by the people

from Municipal Affairs, and a good presentation it was, Mr. Speaker, and

hopefully there will be no major changes to that piece of legislation.

In the meantime, this Bill 19,

An Act to Amend The Shops' Closing Act, I

would have to agree with the minister: it is something that we need to do, to

get it though in this sitting of the House, no doubt about that. I think we will

have no problem on this side supporting it.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, would like to say a few words on this bill. I agree with the bill and

I also agree with my hon. colleague from Cape St. Francis. July1 is an important

day in Canada and, as well, in Newfoundland, when we honour our war dead. I

would like to take this opportunity to speak to the fact that there are other

important days during the year, especially during the summer - they are: Mother's

Day, Father's Day, the May 24 th weekend, Labour Day, et cetera -

that always fall on Sunday. I think that, rather than in a couple of years or

next year to be making more amendments, we should also take a long, hard look at

the quality of life that we have eroded in our Newfoundlanders by preventing

many of them from their traditional going to the country for the weekend or

going camping for the weekend because either the mom or the dad is working on

Sunday; such as Mother's Day, Father's Day, Labour Day and other long

weekends during the summer.

I do agree with this bill, but I would also like to ask the government if

they would have a look at closing the stores on those days as well because we

have eroded a way of life that was so dear to many of our Newfoundlanders.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour, if she speaks now she will

close the debate.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank my hon. colleagues opposite for their contribution to

this debate.

Mr. Speaker, I now move second reading of Bill 19.

Thank you.

On motion, a bill, "An Act to Amend The Shops' Closing Act" read

a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow.

(Bill 19)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 17, Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill,

An Act to

Amend The Schools Act,1997. (Bill 8)

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act,

1997." (Bill 8)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of amendments that are being

put forward for this particular bill.

AN HON. MEMBER: Already? (Inaudible).

MS FOOTE: No, these are the amendments to the act as listed on the bill.

Mr. Speaker, what we are doing here in subsection 65(3) of the act, we are

asking to have that repealed and the following substituted. There is actually

only one part of this to be added, Mr. Speaker.

It says, "A board shall not, in a fiscal year, incur, contract for or

become liable for an expenditure or debt....." Mr. Speaker, the (

b) part of

that already exists, and what we are being advised to add is "unless the

annual fiscal budget for that fiscal year has first been approved, in writing,

by the minister". That is the amendment to subsection 65(3).

Mr. Speaker, subsection 79(2) of the act is being amended by adding

immediately after the word "for" the words "not more than".

Mr. Speaker, what this means in terms of contracts of employment for

directors of education is, it simply means that the boards would have the

flexibility to hire for anywhere up to five years instead of the standard five

years. We have had a request from a board to, in fact, go down this path, with

the agreement, of course, with the director of education to be hired, and the

board. So, this is just giving the board that flexibility, nothing more. Of

course, they can continue to hire for five years. It just says for the words

"not more than".

Section (2), "Section 79 of the Act is amended by adding immediately

after subsection (3) the following:

(4) Notwithstanding that a board may employ

a director or an assistant director under this section, a contract of employment

between a board and a director or an assistant director shall not be entered

into without the prior written approval of that contract by the minister and a

contract of employment entered into without that approval shall be void."

Mr. Speaker, I think most of us will recall the Ministerial Panel Report on

Education Delivery in the Classroom, which was written by two very eminent

education people in the Province, Dr. Len Williams and Dr. Ron Sparkes.

Recommendation 65, in fact, suggested or recommended that the directors of

education report to the minister. Mr. Speaker, I think in talking with the

stakeholders in education, particularly with the school boards and with the

education directors, there was a difficulty with that, and one that I

appreciated, and hope to find a compromise that would, in fact, ensure that

would never be the case, where the directors of education would in fact be hired

by the minister and reporting to the minister. That certainly is not the case

and it was never intended to be the case, certainly not by this government.

The compromise, Mr. Speaker, that is being proposed would essentially see the

contract of employment that is entered into between the board and the employee

being signed off by the minister. That is in keeping with the idea of ensuring

that the compensation and the benefit package is in keeping with the pay plan as

presently exists.

Mr. Speaker, those are the amendments that are being sought to the education

act. The idea here is nothing more than to respond - as the members opposite

will understand - to criticisms from the Auditor General, who, every report for

the last four years, has talked about the lack of accountability; and also on

the advice of our solicitor. This is the basis on which we are moving forward

with these. Clearly, it is not meant and it certainly will not put any kind of

control on the board. Mr. Speaker, it is not meant to be controlling. It is

meant to be working together to again show the public at large that we are all

accountable. Certainly, government is accountable to the people we serve. We put

about half of a billion dollars into the K-12 education system, so we need to

speak to the accountability for those dollars just as the boards, of course, are

accountable to the people they serve, and just as the schools are accountable to

the school boards.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, rise to speak on Bill 8,

An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1997. I am

surprised by what I hear across this House as I stand here now. I cannot believe

that this minister would get up and simply slough this off as a little bit of

housekeeping; because, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, this is a lot more than

housekeeping.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: What I say to the minister is: She is trying to do

something through the back door that she could not do through the front door.

That is the housekeeping that she is doing.

Mr. Speaker, this particular amendment to a bill is not housekeeping. In

order for us to understand why it is not housekeeping, I, too, will go back to

the reports of Mr. Williams, but I go back to the original report of 1992. In

this original report of 1992, there was a recommendation or recommendations that

clearly indicated that boards were moving in a direction of autonomy, where they

would be trusted, whether it is with one dollar or the millions of dollars that

the minister just referred to; that they were supposed to be moving along in a

direction whereby they would be taking responsibility for the delivery of

education in the Province. I reference, when I talk about it, and I go back to

the original report in 1992, Recommendation 203, I say to the minister. It is

under Financing Education. It says, "that government increase its

commitment to education and reallocate within the education system any savings

realized through restructuring." Any savings, I say to them, Mr. Speaker,

any savings. That commitment was made, and I ask about that commitment. Any

savings, it says.

It goes on to say, minister, in Recommendation 204 from that report,

"that the Department of Education replace the present system of allocating

resources with a block funding formula." Now block funding, I say to you,

Mr. Speaker, gives the boards the autonomy. Now, here we had a recommendation

for the department to give the boards the responsibility to, I guess, take care

of their finances. That was in 1992, and this recommendation stood, I say,

Minister, until the latest report of last year.

So, when we look at amendments coming in, we see these amendments to the bill

moving further away from the original design of this particular report. What is

happening here?

MR. E. BYRNE: It was the intent of the legislation (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Exactly. This is not anyone else's responsibility or

legislation, Minister, this is this government's promise prior to the

referendum. This was the promise that this government made to make sure that we

were following a path that was true reform.

MR. SULLIVAN: It was circulated to every household in the Province.

MR. HEDDERSON: It was a guide that went out. It started in 1992 and it

went on up until 1996, and of course in 1997 came the restructuring, I say, Mr.

Speaker.

That is only one part of these amendments, and that deals with finance. I

will get back to the present, but I still, Mr. Speaker, have to go back into the

past. I reference again the 1992 report with regard to personnel. Again, if you

follow along with me you will see that the direction in the early 1990s was to

give the responsibilities of running the school system not entirely - we expect

accountability, but we expect that the boards were going to get closer and

closer to the elected, democratic, autonomous boards which they should be.

I reference again with regard to personnel - and this goes back to 1992, I

say, Mr. Speaker, and it is recommendation 29. This is important because less

than ten years later we have a whole different direction. Recommendation 29,

says, "that school boards be resourced in a manner which allows both

flexibility and discretion in employing and deploying personnel at the school

board level." Now, Mr. Speaker, to me that says, once again, that it is the

elected trustees of the school boards - they are elected, they are

democratically elected - and these people were going to be given responsibility

for the financing and they were going to be given responsibility for the

personnel. Yet we find the minister bringing forth today an amendment to that

act that takes that away altogether.

A second recommendation on the organization and administration of schools is

recommendation 49, Mr. Speaker. It says, "that, in order to achieve a high

level of autonomy and flexibility, school boards determine who should be

employed, for what purposes, where, and for what periods of time for all

personnel at the school board level." Mr. Speaker, I can't put it any

clearer than that. That was the promise that was made in Dr. Williams' report

of 1992 that was in place right up until last year.

Mr. Speaker, where then are these amendments coming from? I ask you, Mr.

Speaker, where are these recommendations coming from? Because, again there must

have been a great deal of consultation, there had to be, to bring about changes

of this nature which means - and the changes would be, that the budgets of a

school board - and I say because I have been party to listening to, looking at,

been part of the process of putting together a budget with regard to a school

board. First up, I say, Mr. Speaker, they are looking at - and by law they

cannot operate on a deficit, so it is priorities. They have to go with

priorities. These trustees -

MR. ANDERSEN: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I can't hear what the Member for Torngat Mountains is

saying but I don't think I need to hear it.

Mr. Speaker, just to get back to the work that goes into a school board

putting together a budget. It is not an easy thing because in some cases they

have maybe ten, twenty, thirty, forty schools or more that they have to look at

the priorities of. They have to determine and have to turn around and say to

some principals, say to some teachers, say to parents: We cannot afford to do

this. We are stretching our budget as much as we possibly can. They plod on and

put their budgets in place, but they put them in place because they go to a lot

of consultation. They have good, solid personnel at the board office. There is,

in all boards, an assistant director of finance. The job of that particular

assistant director is to make sure that all the budgetary restraints, or

whatever, are looked at and that it is presented to the elected trustees. They

grapple back and forth, and they do hours and hours of preparation. Can you

imagine the insult - when they have gone through this process - for the minister

then to ask them to submit that budget, which they have gone through - for

sometimes weeks, sometimes months - for her approval? I say to you, Mr. Speaker

- and this is out of the blue.

I had looked in both reports of recommendations and I have not found a single

reference that asks that the submission of budget, or anything to do with

budget, with regard to submitting it to the minister for approval, I say to you,

Mr. Speaker. So here is the budget. Let's say it is done, because one of the

things about pre-budget that the school boards have to go through is that they

have to submit a list of priorities and anything associated with the budget to

the minister prior to it, and it goes into the Department of Education. That

might go in in April. It might go in February, or whenever it goes in, and then

the minister's officials will look at it and then send it back to the board;

but that is pre-budget stuff. After looking at that, can you imagine then

putting the budget together for the board, these elected trustees, to be asked

to submit the budget back into the minister so it can be slashed and cut.

Again, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, it is very, very important that this bill

be withdrawn because the nature of this bill is not what it appears to be. It is

not what the minister has indicated. This bill will bring our educational reform

back more steps than it will advance us, I can guarantee you that.

The question again arises with regard to the minister, the Department of

Education putting serious restrictions, as is indicated, on these amendments, on

the trustees, and on the school boards. What is going on, I ask? Mr. Speaker, I

ask: What is the intent of these amendments? What is the intent of them?

MR. HARRIS:: Tell us.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am getting to it.

I am telling you, I say to the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi, that

originally when these amendments were put forth they looked like housekeeping,

but it is not housekeeping, let me tell you.

The point of it - and just to digress a little bit, you wonder when the

Schools Act has been changed. Mr. Speaker, I say to you, how important - and the

minister often reminds me how the consultation process is the most important

part of, I guess, any change that might come about; that it is so important to

get to the stakeholders. The stakeholders are the ones who are going to feel the

benefits or the ill-effects of any change that comes about. So I say, Mr.

Speaker, where is the consultation here? Where is the consultation? Because from

my understanding, and I stand to be corrected - it is my understanding that

there was consultation from the boards. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, because what I am

hearing is that there was no consultation. When we look at the text of what the

amendments are, I would suggest to you, that there were school trustees, there

were school chairs, and there were directors in this Province who had never seen

it; had never, ever seen what this bill is all about. Now, if you call that

consultation certainly I will sit down.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, I know there is no need to sit down because I know

what happened with this particular amendment to The Schools Act and how

important it is that this bill be taken off the Order Paper. When the minister

got up today and talked about the amendments, I kind of said: Huh, thank

heavens, at least she can see that what was originally intended was not the way

to go; but, the minister reminded me that the amendments she was talking about

are the ones that are in that particular bill, Bill 8.

To get back to it, Mr. Speaker, it is important that we look at all facets,

all aspects of the presentation of this bill. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that

the consultation was lacking. There was not, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, proper

consultation here. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say there was an

attempt to slip this bill through. Because when you look at what goes on in this

House and the access that people have to what goes on in this House, things can

happen in here that people might never notice until it is too late. That is the

responsibility, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, of the Opposition, to make the

government accountable for their actions.

This particular bill, this amendment to the Schools Act must stop here, and

the minister must go back to the people who are most affected by these and by

that I say the school boards of this Province, the directors of this Province.

She has to go back and account for why she tried to push this bill through

without their knowledge.

The question still remains - and it is an overall question, I say to you, Mr.

Speaker: What is going on here? Because I know, I was part of the system in the

early 1990s to the mid-1990s. There was a great deal of optimism for proper

reform to take place. A great deal of optimism. So much optimism that when the

referendum took place in, I believe 1996-997, that really and honestly there was

a movement throughout all of this Province to get it through, to get on with

reform. Part of the reform was to give voices to the people who were most

involved in education, namely; school trustees, the teachers and teaching staff,

board staff, and also the parents of this Province. These were the people who

were sold on the idea that the Department of Education was opening up its doors,

opening up its windows and allowing true reform to take place.

When we get beyond that middle time and we find that a lot of the savings are

gone - God knows where - now that all the schools that are going to be closed,

for the most part are closed, they are gone. Now that - and I hate to say it -

the dirty work is done. I stood in this House the other day and responded to the

minister's statement that there was an election coming up in September for

school board trustees. Now, I got up and said: Well, minister, thank you for the

information; but I say to you, minister, I hope that there will be enough

trustees to put their names forward because this government hid behind school

boards for too many years, put too much pressure on trustees, and I hope that

they would have, I guess -

MR. E. BYRNE: A full slate.

MR. HEDDERSON: - a full slate of candidates, because we need a full slate

of candidates. We need trustees who have just come through, what I consider, a

war. These trustees put their names forward in 1997 and let me tell you, if you

talk to them today, many of them did not know what they were getting into, but

they are still there today. They are still plodding on, but they need the

support of the department, they need the support of a government.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, I am not exactly sure that you are going to get a

full slate. I hope you do. In the midst of that I was told that I was

slandering. As a matter of fact, the term that was used by one of the ministers

on the other side was that I was scurrilous in what I was saying, because he

misinterpreted what I was saying. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I have a great

deal of respect for the school trustees of this Province. They have done a

monumental task in the last couple of years.

To get back to my original, what is happening now that the dirty work is done

is that the government is starting to reel in any type of autonomy that these

democratically elected school board trustees have. So, Mr. Speaker, there is

something going on here that we need to have fully exposed, that will not be by

the passing of these amendments to the Schools Act. They cannot go forward until

the department and this government steps back and fully consults with the people

who are going to be most affected by these amendments. The amendments that I

refer to are the ones dealing with the budget, having to go through for approval

of the minister, and also with regard to the contracts of the directors and

assistant directors, that the conditions and everything have to be applied.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: First, I say to my colleague, I am up on education today

and I cannot remember bringing in hospital boards or anything.

MR. E. BYRNE: Tell him they appoint hospital boards; they don't elect

them.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is what I was just getting at, I say to the Leader of

the Opposition. When it comes to school boards, these are elected trustees, and

they are trustees. If you just look at the word, trustee. Let me just look at

trustee for a minute. As I say, Mr. Speaker, trustee means somebody that you

trust; someone you would put the education of our children in their hands. I

will tell you, Mr. Speaker, I am comfortable in putting that trust in their

hands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: I am very comfortable, but I don't think the Minister of

Education, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, is comfortable in putting the trust in the

trustees.

MR. SULLIVAN: They are not happy with those trustees over there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Absolutely, and these are elected trustees. It again begs

the question: What is going on here? What is going on here is -

AN HON. MEMBER: Control.

MR. HEDDERSON: Absolutely; control.

AN HON. MEMBER: The dirty work is done now.

MR. HEDDERSON: The dirty work is done. Now let's get on to the glory. I

do not know why but the glory times are supposed to be coming now. We can see

that the boards are not at all amused by these amendments coming forward. What

they see by these amendments is again, the Department of Education, this

government, trying to manage or micro-manage the doings of the Province from the

West Block. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that is not fair. With the sacrifices

that have gone on over the last number of years - the tears, the emotions - I

will tell you, you have to go down to a school board meeting and see trustees

lined up in a gymnasium facing probably 500, 400, 300 parents and students, and

they have to -

MR. E. BYRNE: Seven hundred.

MR. HEDDERSON: Seven hundred (inaudible).

- and they have to make really hard decisions. They know that whatever

decision they make - if you close school A and leave B open, you know what is

going to happen, or vice versa, Mr. Speaker. They have had pretty difficult

times, and this is how the Minister of Education will treat them. She will try

to slip through a bill, an amendment to the Schools Act, to take away the little

bit of autonomy that they have. It is most unfortunate.

The minister bases her amendments on, I believe, Recommendation 65 from the

current Williams-Sparkes report. Recommendation 65 clearly states, just for the

record: "that the Schools Act (1997) be amended to accommodate a change to

the legislative procedures for the appointment, termination and accountability

of school district directors to parallel that of the model in place under the

Colleges Act (1996)." I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that this virtually

snatches a valued leader, a valued partner, that the school board would have

searched for; would have gone through the interview process and would have put

someone in place - I say the directors and assistant directors. For them to go

through that process, Mr. Speaker, of searching out and finding that very valued

facilitator, director, leader, whatever name you want to put on him or her, and

the assistant director, to take care of the business of the school board, only

to find that once they have hired this particular person, it has to go into the

minister to approve and make the conditions.

Again, Recommendation 65 should be taken out and done away with because that

is the feeling - and we know it is the feeling, minister, as you know it is the

feeling. These amendments that the minister is putting forth are not in keeping

with the general consensus of the schools boards, the trustees, or the

directors. She knows that. The minister knows that. So, the right thing to do in

this circumstance is to pull back; to pull back in such a way that you open up

communications with these groups, and you talk it through; but pushing it

through is not the way to go.

Mr. Speaker, it has to be taken off the Order Paper. I would trust the

minister to do that because if it is not done, where are the school boards

going? Where are they going? We have an election coming up in a scant few

months. We are hoping that we will get a good slate, a full slate of trustees to

run for the post to, once again, bring the education system of Newfoundland and

Labrador further along. We see that it is not going to happen if these trustees

are looking at being seriously curtailed in their autonomy. We have to remember

that the trustees are elected. By the very fact that they are elected makes them

responsible. They are in responsible positions. They do not take lightly the

responsibilities of being a trustee. It is so important that we move the reform

of the education of Newfoundland and Labrador down the right path, but if it

continues on -

MR. BARRETT: You are singing from a different hymn book today.

MR. E. BYRNE: In what way, Percy?

MR. HEDDERSON: If my colleague wants to get up on a point - do you want

to get up on a point of order? If he wants to get up on a point of order, I will

sit down. I certainly will.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what hymn book he is referring to.

The hymn book that I am looking at involves the children of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: I will sing a song - and I don't care about singing

songs. I will sing a song, Mr. Speaker, for the children.

MR. E. BYRNE: Inside here or outside there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, inside or outside.

I don't take a position on things like bulk water one day and then the next

day change it. I don't stand in this House, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, and

support a bill only to turn around later on and withdraw that support. We have

to, but I got away from what -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. I have to get back. This is so

important. These amendments are so important. I apologize for allowing myself to

respond to the hon. member over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, and I am glad. I will go on the record here now

because I know that this same member, the Member for Bellevue, stood in this

House and said: What's the big deal? One school board in the whole Province.

It precipitated me asking the minister questions as to whether the direction of

the government was going towards one school board. That is the member who just

told me that I am singing from another hymn book.

MR. BARRETT: You are up all the time saying the school board should not

close this school. In my district you were up (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I say to you, Mr. Speaker, again it is good that the

Member for Bellevue goes back to school closings because that was the hardest

thing for anyone. This is what I am saying about the trustees. Can you imagine

trustees having to close as many schools as they did? I am telling you it is

awful because they did -

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible) interfering with the school boards, representing

your party (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: What does that have to do with (inaudible)?

MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I will continue if I could because I think -

don't even think, I know - this is an important bill in the sense that it has

to be stopped. I am sure that in the debate that is going on now we will be able

to, on both sides of the House, see that these amendments are unraveling any

progress that we have made in education in the last ten years when we talk about

reform. Unravel is what I am saying, because you can't get back something. We

need to move along.

Now that the restructuring is gone, for the most part, there may be some

schools that will have to close out. I am not sure of the number, but now, for

once in a long time, the trustees can get within the schools. They are not

having all their time taken up with closing schools, negative things, if you

want to look at it in that context. Now they were excited about getting into the

classrooms and negotiating, partnering, cooperating with the department, with

this government, to move forward and get into the classrooms, get into the

curriculum, get into fixing the roofs so that there is no leaking, get into

cleaning up the schools, getting into these positive things that would only

serve to move education forward in Newfoundland. But what do we have, Mr.

Speaker? We have a minister now who will bring forward amendments without proper

consultation. She will put them on the table of this House and say that they are

housekeeping. Housekeeping! I said to her at the beginning that the only

housekeeping she is doing is bringing something in through the backdoor that she

would not bring in through the front door. These amendments have to be taken off

the Order Paper.

The minister is trying to put the department, to put this government, in a

position where they are managing - and I say managing - the affairs of elected

representatives in this Province, our trustees. They are named aptly, because

these are just regular ordinary people who have an inkling that their

participation can help maybe one child, two children, or a lot of children, Mr.

Speaker. That is what they are there for, but they are not going to be there

just to be rubber stamps for anyone; because these trustees have an awesome

responsibility, and you only have to talk to any of them to know that they take

it seriously.

We want to make sure that the reform promises that were made in the early

1990s - and not only were they made, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, but they are

written down. I read some of them already today; I do not need to go any deeper

than that. The government knows they are there, the public knows they are there,

and they have waited with bated breath to see great changes come about in

education, and they have been disappointed, Mr. Speaker. This is yet another

disappointment, in this case, because the average person out there does not even

know this debate is going on. But, I tell you, the trustees, they thought enough

about it because they are in

this building today, I say to you, Mr. Speaker.

I was surprised when I looked up today to see, I will not call him my former

boss because I am on leave -

AN HON. MEMBER: They were on that side of the House; now they have

switched over here (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I did not realize, they are still with us. I cannot make

reference to them but, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I happen to be on leave

from -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) go back there. You will be here forever.

MR. HEDDERSON: The minister, not too long ago, Mr. Speaker, called me a

former teacher. I say to the minister that my boss is up in the gallery today.

If and when I decide to return to the classroom -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

AN HON. MEMBER: Some days you have two bosses.

MR. HEDDERSON: Some days, yes. I have been reminded that even today I

have two bosses up in the gallery. Again, a bit of levity, I guess, is okay.

To get back to the seriousness of it, Mr. Speaker, it is so important that

the trustees of this Province be permitted to do what they were elected to do,

and that is to run the affairs of the school boards of the schools that are in

their jurisdiction. They have done a tremendous, tremendous, tremendous - I

cannot say it enough - job to this point in time.

There have been speed bumps along the way but, I tell you, to get a full

appreciation of those speed bumps, attend a public meeting involving trustees

and the parents. Get into these school board meetings. See the school board

trustees going from school to school, looking at the needs of the students,

responding to the needs of the students. Look at the directors, because the

directors, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, are very, very important - the selection

of the directors and the working relationship that the directors have with the

elected trustees of the board. I cannot stress enough, Mr. Speaker, that

important, important relationship; because both of those working together: the

elected trustees, not only the directors, too. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, not

only the directors. The director is, I guess you would call, the chair or the

chief officer. The assistant directors, the board personnel, the staffs in the

school, all of these people have to be working in a partnership. They have to be

given the resources to be able to move forward in education in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

If they are not given the resources, what is going to happen? You are going

to get trustees who are going to get frustrated. You are going to get trustees

who are saying, what are we here for? That gets down to these two amendments - I

should not say two amendments, there are three - these amendments to the Schools

Act, because if indeed the minister, the department, or the government are going

to be responsible for hiring, for setting out the contracts, if they are going

to be responsible for approving the budget, the question is: Why would the

school boards be in operation at all? Is the minister, by moving forward with

these amendments, going down the road that the Member for Bellevue brought up

last year? Is this a move to not only limit the powers of the school board, but

is this a move to change the structure as we know it now? Maybe in their minds,

and in the mind of this government, again, if the dirty work is done, let's go

for the glory now. Let's move along so that the repairs to the building, the

new buildings - I tell you, Mr. Speaker, I can almost tell you, I can rattle it

off now, the press releases that the Minister of Education put out, because it

goes back.

I do not know if the minister wants to go back. Do you want to revisit? Let

me revisit this one for you. I am glad, Minister, that you brought it up. I beg

the indulgence of the Speaker. This is indicative of this government, and I call

it flip-flop. I was taken to task here on a point of privilege from the Minister

of Education, who stood in this House and looked across at me and said: You, as

a former teacher, should know better. I have not changed my position. I have not

done anything. I have not.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: You talk about flip- flops. I say to you, Mr. Speaker,

that is what is happening now. They are good at it, because this was the latest

one on language arts. It was May 5. This is the position that the minister said

that she had taken from the beginning, that she understood fully, right from the

beginning, that integration of the language arts was the thing to do, and she

was not taking any time from music or anything else. That is the position. Now I

have to find the position; I hope it is here. Oh, here it is. Now, this is May

AN HON. MEMBER: May 5.

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh, I am sorry, May 5. My apologies.

Let me go back to the day after Valentine's, on February 15. Now, the

position of the minister, she got up on a point of privilege and said: I have

not changed my position, integration across the language arts. This was sent to

all of Newfoundland and Labrador. This was not like the bill, just tried to pass

in here unbeknownst to anyone. I will get right to the chase. It says,

"What, exactly, is being changed?" Remember, the minister said

integration. It says, "Right now, most students in Grades 1 to 3 spend 60 %

(generally 3 hours per day) of class time in language arts (reading, writing and

drama)...."

Now, remember, that is 25 per cent for language arts, 25 per cent for math,

technology and science, and 10 per cent optional. That is the 10 per cent

optional that is there. So, that is 60 per cent - and mathematics. "The

plan is to increase this time to 70 % (3 hours per day)."

MR. SULLIVAN: What did she say about that?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, it is 10 per cent she is taking from somewhere. In

this one, she says: No, no.

Let me go on a bit further. Again, the crux of the point of privilege was

that she was not taking anything away. She had never intended it to be, but it

is signed down here in the bottom.

MR. SULLIVAN: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts..

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I digress here.

She is not taking anything away from anything else; never changed that

position. She says, "As you saw above, the reduction in the other 6

subjects..." - not integration, not inclusion; but, as a former teacher, I

do not know the difference. Maybe you should have put me on detention, I say to

the Speaker, right?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Better still, maybe I could have done with some peer

counseling from the minister.

MR. SULLIVAN: Not on math, I hope.

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh, no, not math; because, as it stands,110 per cent.

Let me just finish up. Again, I say, Mr. Speaker, that it is clearly a change

in position of the minister where it says, "...the reduction in the other 6

areas (art, music, physical education, social studies, health and religious

education) totals about hour per day - literally only minutes per

subject."

Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, we know what it is like for you to change

positions. I do know what it is like. The minister does not always admit when,

indeed, she is changing position, and certainly gets up on points of privilege

to make her point. In this particular case, we have a debate going on in the

House. It is obvious that again a change in position is happening here. It is

happening here because the minister wants, as I said at the beginning, to do

something through the back door that she could not do through the front door;

because she knows that she will not get approval for these amendments outside of

this House. Mr. Speaker, she will not get approval - not from the trustees. I

certainly say to the minister that she is not getting it from this side of the

House.

We need the minister to step forward now, Mr. Speaker, and own up to her lack

of consultation, own up to putting forth amendments that are not in keeping with

the promises of reform through the nineties, and to put in place, if anything,

amendments that will support the autonomy of the school boards in this Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador. I say to you that it is absolutely imperative that

the minister realize how foolhardy it is to try and micromanage school boards

from the confines of her office in the West Block.

MR. SULLIVAN: She might withdraw it.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would suspect that she will withdraw it, because it

needs to be

withdrawn. It absolutely needs to be.

More serious thought has to be given now to the relationship between the

Department of Education, between this government and the school boards. When I

say school boards, let me qualify that, Mr. Speaker. When I say school boards, I

have to take into account the trustees who are elected to that post and

entrusted with putting forth the best delivery of education. I have to talk

about the personnel in that school board, not only in the school board offices

but in the schools throughout this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I have

to talk about the parents in these schools - not necessarily in the schools, but

whose children are in the schools, and their guardians. I have to talk about the

communities. I have to talk just about every facet of society in our particular

Province. I know, when the budget came down, I have to admit, I was optimistic,

because all I could see was youth and that this was an education budget, that

this was going to move us along. In due regard to the government, there was

certainly an attempt to move forward in construction, and roofs, and so on and

so forth; but, on top on that, to slap the trustees in the face with amendments

such as these.

I ask you, Mr. Speaker: How can the department, how can the minister, expect

partnerships, collaboration? How can the minister expect to get things done that

need to be done? It does not always, as I say to you, Mr. Speaker, involve

money. We have a tendency to talk about money, but this is not a money issue

except that the budget has to be put in to the minister. This is an issue of

power, I suppose. As I said at the beginning when I first got up, Mr. Speaker,

it is so, so important that the boards remain as autonomous as possible. I know

they have to have a partnership back and forth with the department. You cannot

run the education system, but there are certain sacred things when it comes to

elected representatives. We have to be absolutely sure, I say, that we carry on.

How much time have I got left.

AN HON. MEMBER: You have twelve minutes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Twelve minutes. Do I want to go on?

MR. SULLIVAN: It is up to yourself.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is your judgement? Have I said enough? I am after

going through two Speakers. I am after wearing out two Speakers.

AN HON. MEMBER: This is the third Speaker now, isn't it?

MR. SULLIVAN: Don't wear out the third one.

MR. HEDDERSON: Madam Speaker, my colleague has indicated that I am going

through Speakers today like nothing else.

Again, Madam Speaker, just to go back over where we are in this very, very

important bill to amend the schools act, certainly, I say, should be taken off

the Table and put in a place never to see the light of day.

Now, there is a clause in it regarding the transitional

section that it is no

longer required in the act, and I would assume - well, we should not assume

anything - that particular part of the act may have outlived its usefulness. The

transitional

section from 1997 is gone by.

When it comes to other parts of it - and again I say to you, Madam Speaker,

that Clause 2 of the bill is intended to repeal and replace subsection 65(3) to

add a requirement for ministerial approval for the annual budget of the board.

Again, I find this insulting, insulting in the sense that there is a great deal

of work that the schools boards of this Province put into balancing their

particular budgets. And I mean work! The thing about it, Madam Speaker, is that,

you know, you can budget all you like, but just think about this past winter,

and again you cannot help but feel for trustees putting together a budget and

then being hit with a tremendous snow-clearing bill, being hit with, I guess,

roofs that are leaking because of the weather conditions and trying to keep up

that. So, budgets in the best of times, Madam Speaker, are very, very difficult

to put together but - and it is a but - the boards do the job that they are

required to do. They are guided by the schools act which clearly states to them

that they have to run a budget that is not a deficit budget, and, if for any

reason whatsoever, a deficit is looming and they know they cannot do without a

deficit, they have to go back to the Minister of Education, under the current

legislation, and get approval. Again, that is understandable, because you do not

know what is going to hit at any particular time. These are school buildings,

they are aging. You have curriculum concerns sometimes, replacement of books,

and you can go on right down through the whole thing.

Again I find it insulting, Madam Speaker, for the assistant director and the

director. You start off with the director, the assistant director of finance,

all the support staff around, and everyone in the school board office have to

put in their budgets. They spend hours and hours trying to stretch the resources

of the board, and they do everything. Everyone has their hand out, as you can

well imagine, but again, the directors and the trustees have to say no. They

have to make some heart-wrenching decisions about: Will you repair the roof down

here, or will you leave that one for another year and go somewhere else? Can we

put an extra bus on here? Can we do this? Can we pave this lot? There are so

many concerns that they have to juggle. It is a juggling act. As I said, it is

not done overnight.

When, I guess, one school year ends, or one budget year ends, they have

already put a great deal of work into the budget. I cannot imagine these trusted

individuals putting together, in Committee, putting it to the full board,

explaining everything, only to then have to turn around and send it in to the

Department of Education, Madam Speaker. Now, it is not bad sending it in, if it

would come back in the same form.

AN HON. MEMBER: Ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. The

Auditor General requested they do that. You should read the report. They

requested that because (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: How many people on the PAC? Seven. Four from government -

MR. HEDDERSON: We can't deflect on anything else, I say to the member.

Madam Speaker, we can't deflect on other things. It is an attempt here,

perhaps, to get me off the school board issue. That is something, I say to the

member, that he should take up with the Chair. I think if he took it up with the

Chair that his answers would be adequately taken care of.

To get back, Madam Speaker, to what I was talking about, I am just trying to

sum up everything that I have been saying, and just going down through it. I

still have some time, I see. When you are looking at, as I have pointed out, the

process that goes on in the board offices of this Province for weeks and months

at a time, trying to work within the limits that are placed upon them by the

government, I tell you they do a good job, they do an excellent job. They should

be complimented and encouraged, because they are the front line people, they are

the ones who, if there is a leak in the roof, get the phone call first. When

there is not something right they are the ones who have to take the heat, if you

want to put it that way. They are the ones who have to try and juggle things to

get the priorities done, to get the needs done.

As I said, Madam Speaker, it is insulting for me to have to stand here and

try to have the Minister of Education take, from the table, these amendments.

The boards of this Province do an excellent job with the resources that they

have. They are trained professionals. They are elected trustees who, through a

democratic process, come up with the best possible budget. Before I was

interrupted on the other side, Madam Speaker, to be asked then to take a budget

they have worked on for months and send it in to the Department of Education,

not necessarily the minister, but to let it go through all the different

departments and have it slashed, cut, changed and come back. Even if it wasn't

touched, just the very fact that they have to do that. They are elected

trustees, they have a responsibility that is covered by the law of this land.

They are elected by the people.

AN HON. MEMBER: The same as us.

MR. HEDDERSON: No different from us as members of this House of Assembly.

They should be accorded the same respect. This is a matter of, not dollars and

cents, this is a matter, Madam Speaker, of respect. It is the respect that I see

that is not there that is coming from these amendments to the schools act.

The second thing that I would like to look at, because there are two things -

one is to have the trustees put in to the department, to the minister, a budget

which they have already heart-wrenchingly put together. If that is not insulting

enough, the second part of these amendments will take from the elected trustees

- and these elected trustees, I say to you, Madam Speaker, have a feeling for

their particular school board. I suppose, what I am trying to say is that all

the school boards are not alike. They represent different parts of this

Province, and there are cultural concerns. You know what I mean? There are so

many differences within their schools and so on that they try as best they can

to bring out in a positive way. So, here you have a group that are then asked to

go forward and find a director who is going to oversee the professional

operation of that board. The school board on the West Coast and the school board

on the East Coast have different philosophies as to the type of person that they

might want at that particular time.

Is this amendment saying that that is not to happen anymore, that when they

go out and search across this nation, across the world, and they advertise for a

director of education for a particular board - and they do this because they

want the very best person to lead the professional part of that board. They do

the search, and not only do they do the search but they do the hiring, they do

the interviewing. I know what the interviewing is about. You don't get one or

two candidates applying for these positions, you might get hundreds. You have to

screen through it, you have to set up to get them in from perhaps other parts of

Canada, you have to set up a search committee and you have to set up an

interview committee. It is not the easiest thing in the world, I say to you,

Madam Speaker. Again, you don't put it in the paper one day and hire someone

the next. You have got to be sure that the person you are going to hire is the

person who is going to do the best job at that particular time.

Can you imagine elected trustees, professional staff, doing that process and

then pushing it forward, saying, we have our man or woman, this is the person

that we want? Can you imagine how insulting it is to have to turn around then

and send in to the Department of Education for them to analyze what you have

done, for them to decide on what the contract would be, the conditions would be,

not only for the director, Madam Speaker, but also for the assistant directors?

I say to you, Madam Speaker, once again interfering with the operations of a

duly elected board.

MR. SULLIVAN: It is the same as them doing it in the first place

themselves.

MR. HEDDERSON: Exactly.

MR. SULLIVAN: The same thing.

MR. HEDDERSON: Exactly.

I say to you, Madam Speaker, that these two points are insulting, not only to

me but to all of the general public of Newfoundland and Labrador, insulting in

the sense that the promise of reform was to push our education system along, to

give autonomy to those who are closest and know best what should be happening in

the schools of our Province. I contend, Madam Speaker, that these amendments are

seriously unraveling any movement forward with regard to governance, and we are

stepping backwards if these amendments go forward.

So, I respectfully ask, Madam Speaker, that the Minister of Education do the

right thing, and the right thing in this circumstance is to withdraw from the

Table of this House those amendments which talk about the budget and the

employment of the directors and the assistant directors in the school boards of

this Province.

I ask, then, that she do everything possible to repair any damage that these

amendments would have had in the relationship between the department and the

boards, and to move forward in a spirit of co-operation.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that his time is up.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just one last statement. Basically, Madam Speaker, I hope

that the minister will rise and do the right thing.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER (M. Hodder): The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I sat and listened quietly as the hon. member was speaking to this particular

bill. I say to the hon. member, yes it is strange in the context of - but I

wanted to hear what he had to say because it is amazing to me how much an

audience influences the description that the hon. member portrays of school

trustees.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MATTHEWS: Madam Speaker, I listened to the hon. member in complete

silence when he spoke and I think it is only appropriate that I ask that he

listen to me in complete silence.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MATTHEWS: It was only -

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MATTHEWS: It was only, Madam Speaker, four days ago that I was caused

to rise in this House on a point of personal privilege because of the level and

extent of the insulting comments that were made by the hon. member with respect

to the capacity of school trustees in this Province to do their work in the

context of their responsibilities.

I refer to questions that were raised in Question Period, or a response to a

statement by the minister who was commending school trustees for their

contribution to the educational system in this Province. The hon. member rose in

his place - and I have the comments here. I can give him a copy of it. He said

this precisely about trustees in the Province: Mr. Speaker, they are used. The

government is using school boards for their own particular purposes. Now the

comment that he made was to assert in this House that school trustees in this

Province are no more - in terms of their capacity and ability - than potted

plants at school board tables taking muted direction from government so as to do

government's bidding without being able to apply their own mind and

intelligence to the execution of their responsibilities.

I say to the hon. member, Madam Speaker, that when I rose in this House as a

former trustee, I was insulted. I was offended. I was taken aback, quite

frankly, by the comments that the hon. member made that cast very serious

aspersions on the type of people that run to be trustees and on the level of

competence that those people have, and on their willingness not to act

independently.

Madam Speaker, if there is anything which confirms that he insulted trustees

is the fact that he cannot keep his mouth shut now while I am talking, as I did

when he was talking.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MATTHEWS: Madam Speaker, because the Chair has not yet ruled on the

commentary of the hon. member, derogatory in my judgement, to the role of school

trustees. I ask if he would not take the opportunity now to rise in this House

and withdraw the slurrilous' scurrilous comments that he made with respect

to school trustees in this Province.

MR. E. BYRNE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a point of

order.

MR. E. BYRNE: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order to correct the

information put forward by the minister.

In a shameless show for the gallery he is trying to impugn and put words of

the education critic onto the floor that did not happen. In his own words, on

that day, he said: "Essentially, Mr. Speaker, my

interpretation of what he

is saying..." Now that is what the minister is referring to now. His own

interpretation. The

interpretation is very clear. What the member said is that

he complimented school trustees. He said it here. He complimented the work that

school trustees had done in very challenging and very difficult times, based on

his own conversations with those who had served in that elected role.

The member went on to say that because of these challenging and difficult

times he felt, based upon conversations he had, that many would not offer

themselves. He basically said, Madam Speaker, that he hoped many would offer

themselves again but he remained unconvinced because in the years during the

most contentious time under school reform - and the acts that were put in place

in this Legislature, acts that this government put in place, commitments made by

this government that are yet unfilled, that are yet to be fulfilled, Madam

Speaker. That is what this member said. Any other

interpretation by this

minister or any other minister is completely false, it is completely wrong. I

say to him, if you want your words to reflect accurately in this House for each

and every person, not only in this House but outside this House to see, then,

Sir, it is you who should stand up and apologize to this member for what you

have just said in this Legislature.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

I ask the hon. minister to continue.

MR. MATTHEWS: Madam Speaker, it is clear that the commentary from the

hon. critic last week and my response to it in the