Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, DECEMBER 6, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 84

December 6. 1974. The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. "ffi.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1934 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. RH - l MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Barr'd Harbour in the District of St. Batbe North. Actually, Sir, it is a supplementary to a petition that I presented to this honourable House yesterday signed by the majority of the communities in the electoral District of St. Barbe North.

It reads that the undersigned and there are thirty-three residents of Barr'd Harbour who sent this in, it reads: "The unde;rsiimed residents of the Area from Barr'd Harbour to St. Barbe, ,. in this case just Barr'd Harbour, "support the following proposal of the action committee, a nonpolitical r-roup workinp. to improve local conditions. Since our electrical service is poor with mEny outages, many homes and businesses suffer from it. This past weekend the electricity was off from 11:15 A.H. Friday until 11:00 A.M. Saturday.

Many peoples water and sewer systems froze and broke and people cannot live under these particular conditions any more." Now, Sir, I would like to speak 7689

Decemher ~ ]074 Tane 1935 PK - 1 on this netition ;ust hrieflv in suoport of it. The situation in St. Rarhe North is this.there are approximately 1nn miles of so- called road· with fortv-three communities snread along that 100 miles. There is one diesel generating station in Cook's Harbour senring Boat Rarhour, Wild Bight, Cape Norman and Cook's Harbour, There is one generating station in Flower's Cove serving all of the other fortv communities in the whole of the district over apnroximately forty miles. ~low. Sir, the prohlem is basically this, as you go south the electrical lines around the St.

Rarhe Bay Basin frea are subjected to the salting and snrays and severe wind and snow and this sort of a thing and therein lies the oroblem in the St. Barbe Bay Basin. This 1s about halfway down the coast or south from Flower's Cove. ~onsequently what hapnens is this, is that ouite often narticularly in the •~inter, autumn and sprin!!' the electricity goes off in communities south of the St. Barbe Bav Basin, which represents about twenty communities. No~,, Sir.

I have made recommendations to the ¥inister of Mines and fnergv and to the N~•foundland and Labrador Power Commission to establish a permanent diesel generating station in the Plum Point Area to serve St. Barbe Sout~ to Bard Harhour and let the Flower's Cove generating station serve from St. Barhe North to Eddies Cove or Big Brook. Now, Sir, these recOIJIJllendations have been made for two and a-half VP.ars and nothinp; has come out of it at all. l<e h"v" ,,.,.1<..A t-hp,-,.fnr" for mohile generating station~ to be located in the Plum Point Area, Sir, and that has been turned down.

Now the N~:rfoundland and Lahrador Power Cofflfflission have advised me in writing, as well as the rAinister rf Mines and Energy last year that thev would he ungrading the electrical lines in the whole of thP. ntstrict of St, Barbe North before this c0111in~ winter, Sir, to my utter amazement and diaao110:l.ntment and suri,r:l .se,when I visited the district in late summer I found all the materials, all the insulator , all the cro  - arms, all the regulators and all t.he wires for the Uf'grading of the electrical lines sitting hehind the oower olant in Flower's Cove, To my knowld~a, 76:;0 '

necember t> . 1°71. Tane 1935 PK - 2 Sir, I assumed that the upgrading is $!Oing on at the nresent time. If so. t would subillit. Sir, that the -.-or k that t hese linemen can do on upp,radin~ the electrica l lines at St. Barbe North at this time of the year cannot be anvthin~ equivalent t o what could have been done durin g the summer. The oeonle of St. Barbe North arP goin$! to suffer the same outages , t he same fluctuations in volta ges, therefo r e burn ed out eler.trical aonlicances, thP. saine freezing up of furnace s and what have vou that thev had last vear and the yea r before that. Sir.

I think it is time that the i overnment, the minister responsible for the Newfoundland and Labra dor Power Commission, rhP Uini•t~ r nf Mfn~s and Ener ~v to ~et on the hall wit h respect to t hiF and establish a nermanent diesel generatin~ station i n the Plum Point Area. Sir, now t can ~ess whv orobRblv t his is not heing done, thev are hopefull y tryin~ to $!et - MJL "IARSHALL:_ On a ooint of order ~ " r. Speaker. The honourable Member fo r St. Barbe Morth is ent:erinp, into a bit of debate and he is beinp, rather lonp, in nresentinP. his oetition.

I draw Your Honour's attention to Standinp, Or der E92) on petitions which says "That in no case shall such a memt-er occunv more than five minutes in RO dof.nP., •· that iia ;l.n offering llhe petition to the Rouse , ''Unless hy permission of t he House uoon nueiat1.on out. " So the 7631

December 6, 1974. Tape 1936 'RH - 1 honourable member has used up pretty well all of his five minutes and he is also entering really into the realm of debate in presenting his petition. 'Ml!.. ROWE: To that ooint of order, Mr. Speaker. I am purposely trying to explain the situation which exists in the District of St. Barbe North hecause this has been going on for two and a half years without any im­ provement whatsoever. AN Ji()NOURABLE MEMBER: 1naudible. ~ R__O~: As a matter of fact, I will answer the honourable minister's question, Mr. Speaker, if I am allowed to.

I certainly will. :"'R· ~P~AKEll_: Order, please! Order, please! The Standing Order as mentioned by the Minister without Portfolio is quite correct. The member who is pre­ senting the petition is allowed five minutes and he should be very conscious of the relevancy in speaking to the prayer of the petition. I feel the honourable Member for St. Barbe North was straying somewhat from the rule of relevancy to the prayer of his actual petition and was merely enterinr, into what one might call a debate. 'tR. R()WE: Mr.

Speaker, I think I have about a half minute left if I remember correctly and I will end it by answering the honourable Minister of Social Services' question. Has it only been for the last two and a half years? Of course, it has not been only for the last two and a half years, Sir, but I will say one thing, that the use of electrical appliances and the use of electricity has increased dramatically in the last two or three or four or five years and therein lies the reason for the fact that they are having these problems.

For instance, they finally p,ot a T,V. tower in the district there a couple of years ago as a result of the Federal ~ovem­ ment and they bought new T.V.s. So, Sir, I support the petition and I ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petition? The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Mine and Energy who is absent today and in Ottawa, I certainly can aaure the honourable gentlemen opposite that he and the Power Corporation have been payin~ a 1r1at 769l

December 6, 1974. Tape 1936 RH - 2 deal of attention to the situation with respect to energy on the Northern Peninsula. I have no doubt that they are certainly doing what they can to improve facilities. I suggest to the honourable gentleman that he remind him on Monday about his petition so he can make sure that the right steps are beinp. taken. ~- SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speak.er, I thank the honourable Minister of Fisheries for his support of the petition and I hope that the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy will support this petition.

Sir, it is not stated correctly as a petition as such but it has been signed by an individual and has been sent in on behalf of 132 citizens of the Community of Forresters Point in St. Barbe North. The letter, Sir, which is not really in the form of a petition, I will precis it for you, is basically for a community stage to be set up in the community of Forresters Point. Now, what,: would like to point out to the Minister of Finance and I think he has a pretty good understanding of the problems in St.

Barbe North with respect to the fisheries because I have been sending a fair amount of correspondence to hi~ reiating to it, is this: Again you have a number of small communities and because of the nature of these small communities obviously you cannot expect a Rreat major fish plant in the District of St. Barbe North that would satisfy all of the fishermen in all of the communities. Therefore what is required, Sir, are specialized o~ semi-specialized community stages in practically every community in the District of St. Barbe North, in this case Forresters Point.

These- people, Sir, the 132 people here are either fishermen or, if you want to call them fisherwomen for they work in the processing end of the fishing. Sir, the problem is that they have to export the products of the sea to somewhere like Port Au Choix and therefore the people in the community lose the spin-off employments that you would normally get from the fisheries. Now, Sir, this community stage is very badly needed in Forresters Point and I would ask. the Minister of Fisheries to give every consideration 769.3

necemher 6, 1974. Tape LCJ36 R.H - 3 to 11uroortinr, thii; r,etition because now or in recent months or over the past vear.l underst~nd that community sta~ei; do co~e under the jurisdiction of the Provincial Deoartment of Fisheries rather than the Federal Department of Fishe r ies. So, Sir, I ~ive this petition all of my support and I ask chat this petition he placed on the table of the House and referred to the <lcnArtf'lent to which tt relates. 'fR . CROSB1E: ~r . Speaker, l rise to treat the petition with S}'lllpathy. 7694

~ecember 6, 1974 Tape 1937 PK - 1 I think that the honourable gentleman - or a copy of that petition or letter was sent to me and the Department of Fisheries is going to study this situation at Forresters Point and see what we can do as to whether a community stage i~ a oriority in that area and to see what we can do to provide it.

I have some information here that I will give the House later on as to the tremendous, the fantastic amount of work done by the Provincial Denartment of Fisheries in the last twelve months in the supply­ ing of fish handling facilities, community stages, slipways, haulouts, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens, and a lot of them on the Oreat Northern Peninsula · and in other districts. There has been a fantastic amount of work done. The new Assistant Deputv Minister, Mr. Burden ha~ a smoothly functioning group now working in the Department of Fisheries on such items as this.

Now community stages as to whether they are federal or provincial is somewhat mixed as the honourable gentleman knows. Community stages originally were constructed here by the federal government. I think the administration of them was taken over by the provincial government, some have been built by the provincial government but it is not a question of jurisdiction of one or the o~her. Sometimes a province orovides a facility although it is really within federal jurisdiction in order to help the fishermen of the orovince. So this is something that really needs to be straightened out with the federal government.

We have built slipways,for examole, when slipways really are within the jurisdiction of a facility that the Government of Canada should provirle. r.ertA1n]v vh,....,,,.,., hr.,.itln-•aters, dredging and these kinds of works and longliner slipways, Sll'all boat slipways are difinitely facilities that should he provided by the Government of Canada. Rut in connection with this petition we are aware that they want the situation studied. It is not the only place in the nrovince that also is reauest:lng a community stage.

Within the limits of the money made available to the department, we will certainly see what we can do for Forresters Point. 7695

Decemher f, , 19 7l1 l'K - 2 P'l!.ESF.NTING 'l!F.PORTS OF STANDING AND SF.LY.CT COMMITTEES }fR. £PEAK_fR: The Hon. ~inister of FishP.ries. "'R. J. CJ!OSBIE: Mr. Sneaker, I ~ould like to nresent a renort, this 1 s the Annual 'R.ey,ort of the Denartment of Fisheries for the. year end:1.ng '.March 11, 1974. There are conies that will be nrovided to all honourable ~entlemen and to the nress . I am not mire but I think it is the first annual renort t hat the denartment has had or certainly in this form.

There 1s a very fine nicture of the then minister in the report but even \-,etter than that there i!'I a state!Tlent which outlines the fishery i,ol.1.cy of the Government of ~ewfoundland and then it goes on to illustrate how the denartment is now organized, and how the denartment is reorganized. Tt has been vastly expanded, ~r. Sneaker, since the bad old days of 1971 and nrevious years. It shows now how the department is now organized.

Tt has a great deal of information on the ~ind of =rk that is going forth in the denartment, technical upp,rading, inshore fishing gear rlemonstrations, cod tran modifications, Tlutch beam trawling - AN FON. !P.?!BER : Inaudible. :'-IR. CROSBIE: P.onourable gentlemen may not be able to understand it, So tliere 1 s al together, •~r • Sneaker. AN llON. 'DmJ-'Jl : Inaudible. . --- MR._CROSBIE: l",o altogether, Mr. Speaker, why is it they do not want to learn anvthinp;. Twentv-two vears of b:norance, they want to continue.

Sixtv-e1p;ht pap,es of fact filled, exciting information on the fisher:l .es of Newfoundland and this is gning to be hot. They are getting free copies. He =uld ordinarily sell it for about five doll.are a copy, HO'!. YP.HBFP.S: ~ . SPJ'..AKER: ~ SPF.AKER: "111, F. llOW'I': Inaudihle. Order, olea11e! AN~WF:RS TO m ESTIONS FOR WHICH M<>Ttr. F. RAS BEEN GIVEN ORAL OUESTIONS The honourable ~ember for St, Barhe Nortb, ' !r. Sneaker, I wonder if the l'rl!lll:l.er i!I ,i:o:l.ng to 'be in hif! seat this afternoon, I have e (ew que11tione. A •T f!ON.

MEMBER: No the l'rem:l.er 111 out of town on a 111atter ol urRent 11ubU.c hueinef!e. 7690

Tape 1937 PK - 3 tfl> • RO"T": Oh! AN f10N. I-IEttBR.: Gettinr ready for the electior. HR. RO~'f': 1-Pttinr, readv for the election. That is what I figured. AN FnN. 1'11':MBF.R: !naudihlP. MR. R. ~ Mr. S~eaker, I guess the corre c t nerson to address this ouest1on to would he t he ~inister of Realth or oossibly the rrdnister resnon~ihle for the )llewfoundland J,iquor Col!llllission which would be the ~'inister of Finance. In view of the record $24 million orofit made by the Newfoundland Liquor r.ommission this oast year , and in view of the recommendations from the Newfoundla nd Medical Association, is it the intcnt:lon of the government to institute a rehabilitati on 1>rogramme for 7691

necemher n, 1974. Tape 1938 RH - l the victims of alcoholism usinr a part of the profit from the Newfound­ lanrl and Labrador Liauor Commission. ~N HONOURABLE MEMBER: They have one already. '!R. ROWF.: ~r. Speaker, if they already have one would they outline their orogramme olease? "ffi.. SPEAKER: The honourable Yinister of Finance. ~J!_._!l.V:_Y_!lLE: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the honourable member has given me the opportunity to answer this question.

The first part; as far as the Newfoundland ~edical Association stands on this issue, I understand that there has been a co111111ittee studying this for the past six months. They are waiting for their recommendations. />.N HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. "!R. EARLE: No, on the other profit of the Liquor Commission, Newfoundland Liouor Corporation, t 1Jould like to correct perhaps a misconception that it would appear from the statement and I think it has been interpreted particularly by the opposition that there was $24 million made on sales of $31 million.

That is not correct because the $31 million represents sales out of stock but in addition to that there are the total sales of heer which amount to some Sl7 million on which commissions only are paid. It is not a sales profit. It is a commission so that the actual earnin~e of the Board of Liquor Control are approximately $24 million on $46 million which makes a gross profit of approximately fifty per cent. That is entirely different than the conception which I think the press has arrived at. In that instance I would like to take the opportunity also, ~r.

Speaker, to say that the phamphlet which has been publicly cri tici:i:ed, which I contend is the finest illustration of what the Board or (orporation is doinP., these phamphlets cost twenty-four cents each which for such a orint job is extremely cheap. They~ to all the supplier• throughout the many countries in the world that supply the various liquor1, wines, soirits and so on to their corporation. They go to each and every other Province and I think they show a very creditable position of the Province of Newfoundland.

I am somewhat resentful and object stron~ly to the fact that when an exceptionally good job has been done by a very well run corporation on behalf of the people of Newfoundland that it 11 subject to 7698

December 6, 1974. Tape 1948 RH - 2 such unfair criticism because this is one of the better efforts that the Province has undertaken. MR. ROWE: Is the minister suggesting that we are criticizing the Newfound­ land and Labrador Liquor Commission? I cannot remember any exact instances this afternoon particularly of having criticized the Newfoundland Liquor Commission. Although the minister's answer to the question or information that he is getting on with is relatively interesting, he has yet to answer the question that I asked originally.

I would like the minister to cite the criticism of the Newfoundland and Lahrador Liquor Commission by the opposition. Mll.. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable Member for St. Barbe North rose on a point of order which really was not a point of order at all. DR. A. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the Member for St.

Barbe North on the medical aspect of the Medical Association, there has been for some months past a committee of the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation, Department of Health, Department of Education studying and making recommendations regarding the whole process of rehabilitation including the subject of alcoholism. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: This programme or intended programme; will that come out of the profits or be paid for out of the profits of the Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor Commission? DR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, that is not a question that I can answer. MR. ROWE: The Minister of Finance might answer it, Mr. Speaker. MR. EARLE: To answer the question, Mr. Speaker: Of course, the profits of the Liquor Corporation go into general revenue. General revenue supplies every operation of government including education, health, welfare, justice, all of these operations of government, I think, invariably touch upon education and the control of alcoholism. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I assume that the honourable Minister of Justice is responsible for the appointment of an ombudsman for the Province.

I was going to address the question to the Premier but 769~

DecernhP.r ~. 1Q74 'Pl( - 1 ,:., • fl.OW}': woulrl the minister indicate to the Hom,e Irhen an 0111hudsman ------ wi 11 he a1moi.nted for the nrovince? H~. "!CTQ-•A~: Tn rlue courl':e, Hr. Sneaker. Ml!. F. PllFF.: I th:ink the minister for 1-iis ST"ecific answer, "Ir. Sneaker. -~ sunnlernentllry - Is there any truth to the rumour that ~r. }!utbeem. the Premier'!': hrother-in-law. and who will he shortly unemployed, is to be annointed as the omhudsman for the nrovince, ~r. Speaker. Yes. that is right. 1'..H HON. •,!J='.M'JlF.R: ' '? . SPF.AKEll: '!R.

RICl{l,l'AN: "ll' • SPEAKEl! : An excellent choice. 0rder, nlease! He do not 'knmr. Order, nlease! 1'hat ouest:f .on i,; out of order. It is not one that reciuires an immediate answer. The honourable '<ember for Labrador South. I have a ouestl.on 1-rh:!ch I t~ould like to direct towards the Hon. ~inister of Fisheries re~arding the namphlet which was distributed. T note the ahsence of anv nrinters lor-o here, I am wonderinp, if the honourable minister could tell us where it was prinited? ~"'. CROS!lrn: ------ - I do not know where it Wlls nrinted, Mr. Speaker.

I could f:!nrl out hut tenders were called and :!t went to whoever was the lowest as is invariably the case in these matters. I t,'1.11 tr)• to find out, I do not 1':now. '·<P. SPF,ATl'.F": The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. - ------ '-'P. F. ROWF : vr. Speal•er. will the '-finister of F.ducation be in h:I s 11eat this afternoon? '-11> • '-!AR SHALT, : Hell, l~r. Sneaker. I nresume he will be but 11t the same t:!rne nerhar,s ~•e could f1nd out whether the Leader of the Onuoaition and the ~'ember for Bell Island ~-!- F. 'R0_WF., On a !loint of order, 'lr. !!J)eaker.

It is not usual for governmrnt memhers to as~ the onposition questions hut it is uaual for thP o~J)osition to asv honourahle ministers ~ueationa. I think it ii a nerfectlv le~itimatP que~tion for me to asr, ·;- i uO

December 6, 1~74 Tape 1939 PK - 2 M1't. SPEAJl'.ER: Order. nlease! I assume ~hat it is just as much in order for a member of the opposition to wonder whether a minister will be nresent as it is for a minister to wonder if others will be present. Both questions are out of order • ~ .• f'. ~OWF: •.•• the answer to my question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I just said, that both answers are out of order. MR. "F. 110WF: Is there anybody acting on behalf of the Minister of Education at the present time, sittinp; on the other side? MR. CROSPIE: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure the honourable Member for St.

Barbe North seems to have been directing his question towards the Chair and I am sure he is also aware that the Si,eaker is in no noi:;ition to answer questions. MR. F. ~OWE: I have an urgent question to ask in the matter of education. I would like to know whether the minister is going to be here during the question neriod? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Tte honourable Member for Twillingate. MR. H. C. GILLETT: Before we have the 6rders of the Dav, Mr. Speaker, I have a ouestion for the Minister of Fisheries.

I am wondering if he can tell us the response to the appeal for applications for fishermen to register, licencing of boats and fishermen themselves? Are they resnonding to his satisfaction? MR. SPEAKER: The Eon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Well, Mr. Sneaker, that is a programme of the Government of Canada and it is within their jurisdiction, so I really cannot anm,er the question. I did ask them the other day, how it was coming along? I think they said, that it was going satisfactorily but it is not our programme. 'MR.

COLLINS: Tell him to ask the Member for Gander/Twillingate whoever he is. 'HP .• SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fogo. ~- E. WINSOR: Mr. Sneaker, I do not who I really should address this ouestion to, ,:,robably I will address it to the Minister of Finance. Has the Jloard of C:l.vil Service Commission, has that been fully staffed now? Would the minister care to give the names of the Civil Service Commission? 7701

necember ~. 1974 Tane 1939 Pl{ - 3 ,q, • 'P£t,KF.~: The Hon. Minister of Finance. HON. I!. R. V. FA!U.E (!-iJ\TISTER OF "FINANCE) : The Roard has been fully staffed. The names iust escape me at the. moment of those who are there. I will get the answer for the honourable member. The honourahle 'Member for Labrador Nnrth. !-flt. M. HOODWAPn: Mr.

Speaker, T. would like to direct a question to the Touring Minister of Tourism, I met him going through the termiMl at the airnort at the beginning ~f the week heading for one of our second biggest cities. ><11.. nrxmY: Inaudible. ------ >1v_. ~-:,OODWAP.D: Take vour time, Bill: Take your time: AN HON. ~ER: Inaudible. I did not say anvthing derogatory towards the 11:entlemaii, he wai:, 1uRt on his way to "-'ontreal. '1Y • SPFAKFR: !.ffi. mODWARD: Order, please! Mr.

Soeaker, the question thllt I would like to ask the minister, if he would care to inform the House the amount of money involved in the last agreement between his de1>art111ent and the federal ~overnroent on native funding for the province? If he can tell us the amount of money that j_s involved over the three year nroll!ral!IIDe and the amount that will "-e ~:!ven for this narticular fund each year? not Jcnow anything about it, "Ir. Speaker. MR. SPF.AKER: T'!-,e Hon. Minister of Tourism. He does HON. T. HICKEY (MINISTF.P. OF TOURJS'-f): Mr. Speaker, is the honourable member talking ahout an agreement with DREE?

"IR. W('l()DWARD: Nn; I am talking about a federal/provincial ali!remnent where your funds COl'le 770,!.

December 6, 1974. Tape 1940 RH - l for native people, the Indians and Eskimoes in Labrador. MR. T. HICKEY: Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I have just gotten back a few minutes ago. I have not even been into my office yet as such. This subject seems to escape me. I certainly will investigate the matter and see what I can find out for the member. He might even find that he should address it to another minister unless he wants me to go into a dissertation about my getting stormbound and all of that. I will be glad to tell him how bad the service is, all of that stuff. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, maybe I did but I was under the impression that the Minister of Tourism was responsible. Maybe the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation is responsible and I would ask if he would answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. T. DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation is responsible for the Federal Provincial Assistance Programme. At the present time, the amount involved is $1.5 million per year but as was announced jointly by the honourable Mr.

Jamieson and myself about two weeks ago that amount will be increasing to $4.5 million come the first of April, 1975, Those figures were announced jointly about two and a half weeks aj!:O, MR, WOODWARD: S4.5 million for each year thereafter? MR. DOYLE: $4.5 million for the five year period from April 1, 1975 to 1980, unless otherwise negotiated. MR. WOODWARD: That is less than what they are already getting. ~R. DOYLE: No, $4.S million per year. MR. WOODWARD: $4.5 million per year. MR. OOYLE: Right. Just one of the recommendations of our commission report. MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Justice, In order that he can get the question straight I would like to preface it just shortly. We believe in the absolute right, Sir, of the P.C. Party on the various radio stations to carry whatever programme they do have. However, the question, Sir: Will the Minister of 770J

Dece~ber 6, 1974. Tape 1940 RH - 2 Justice, Sir, assure the House - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is gettinp, to the honourable member. ::!:R· ~OWE: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not p,etting to me. Every time they go on T. V. they win more votes for the Liberal Party. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAY.ER: Order, please! Order, please! If the honourable Member for St. Barbe North intends to ask a question then I suggest he get on with it. '1tt. ~OWE: Mr. Speaker, T. suggest respectfully that I do have the right to he heard in silence and I am asking a question as well.

Will the Minister of .Tus:tice, Sir, assure this House that no government money nor government nersonnel nor government equipment were used to produce that hour long propramme on the coverage of the P.C. convention on CJON. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member should know. He was at the convention. MR. ROWE: I did not go to the convention. A~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I think the matter of that particular topic was brought up a day or two ago in this Legislature and at that time I made a ruling that questions pertaining to that particular telecast should be directed towards the T.V. station concerned. MR. ROWE: They were, Mr. Speaker, directed to the stations concerned. I would like to ask another question, Sir, relating to the convention. Did Newfoundland Information Services have anything to do whatsoever with the issuinp of credentials at that P.C. convention or did any of the personnel of Newfoundland Information Services have anything to do at that convention whatsoever.

"'IR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is a complete abuse of the question ~eriod, The government is being asked certain questions to give a little bit of innuendo so that there can be a little bit of this type of news ~oing out, That·is not within the government's knowledge at all and it ia inultin& for a member of the House to even insinuate that that kind of thinp: would go on, So if he wants to use the question period, I suggest he ask question  but not be able to use it for this purpose. 7704

December 6, 1974. Tape 1940 RH - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Orde-c, please! The question asked by the honourable Member fo-c St. Ba-cbe No-cth is out of order . AN HONOUR.ABLE t'EMBER: 1naudible. MR. ROWE: Yes, I agree ,Mr. Speaker. The honou-cable Membe-c for Bell Islan d would do a much better job. I agree one hundred per cent . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . ROWE: Could the Minister of Justice, Sir, indicate 7700

December 6 , 1974. Tape 1941 whether or not any government aircraft were used for the purpose of transporting people to that convention? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: The question is out of order. Motion (2) is the motion re the fisheries to be moved by the honourable Minister of Fisheriesr MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to move the motion that is on the Order Paper, Motion (2), which I hope and expect will be endorsed by all members of the House. Only time will tell about that of course. RH - 1 The resolution itself, forgetting the

preamble resolves that the House support the efforts of the Government of Newfoundland in conjunction with the Government of Canada to devise a scheme of financial assistance for the fish industry of Newfoundland and Labrador that will permit the fishing industry to continue to operate in the manner that permits the efficient and properly managed company to gain a reasonablF. return on its investment and the fisherman and worker in the industry to receive fair and adequate returns for his labour till such time as the recovery of the fishing resources on the inshore and r.ontinental Shelf waters off the East Coast of Canada permits a self sustaining industry to operate once again and that the House of Assembly convened urges and enjoins the Government of Canada to take unilateral action during 1975 to control the fishin, resource on the inshore and Continental Shelf waters off the East Coast of Canada for the benefit of the Canadian fishery and to take steps to ensure proper enforcement and surveillance measures unless a satisfactory international agreement is reached that permits the same results at the Law of the Sea Conference during 1975, That is the resolution, Mr, Speaker.

The purpose of it is to permit this House to debate the present position of the fishing industry of Newfoundland in matters associated with that industry. Now, Mr, Speaker, what I want to do is tell the House what our fishery policy is. The annual report that was tabled here today outlines that. I would suggest that it has been many years, many, many ypars since thi1 Provinca had a fishery policy. It certainly did not have a fishery policy from 1949 to the end of 1971 thllt was very discernible to anyone, It· was mo11tly 7700

December 6, 1974. Tape 1941 RH - 2 a collection :if ad hoc actions that would get resurrected every few years when an election approached and other than that there was no co-ordinated programme of action for the fishery of the Province of Newfoundland at all. That situation has changed since the end of 1971. The lack of a fishery policy for this Province on the Province's behalf shows, Mr. Speaker, how important the fishery was deemed by the Liberal Party of Newfoundland for those twenty-two or twenty-three years.

The attitude of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland towards the fishery of Newfoundland was further illustrated, Mr.

Speaker, when-I was appointed Minister of Fisheries at the beginning of October, 1974,­ when to my amazement and it must have been to the amazement of every single fisherman in the Province of Newfoundland, we heard the Leader of the Opposition come on radio and T.V. and I must say he said some very kind words about me and I appreciated that, he has a very warm feeling for me but in any event he did say some good words about me, but he came on radio and T.V. really to denigrate this cabinet shuffle, to tell the i:,eople of Newfoundland that poor John Crosbie had been demoted, he had been taken from the Department of Finance and put in the Department of Fisheries and demoted to the Department of Fisheries, a minor department.

That shows where the priorities of the honourable Leader of the Ooposition are in this Province, Mr. Speaker. •That a statement for a leader of a political party in Newfoundland to make when someone is appointed Minister of Fisheries. To say it is a demotion, does that not show how that honourable gentleman regards the fishery 7 In fact I have heard him make very few statements about the fishery, very, very few statements about the fishery since he has been Leader of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland.

He was a member 6f the Cabinet of the Newfoundland Government from 1968 when he stepped in over the backs of Wells and Crosbie. lfuen they resigned until the end of 1971 we saw no great attention paid to the fishery during those three years. So we have a position, Mr. Speaker, where the fishery here in Newfoundland is not regarded as of much importance by at least the Leader of the Opposition.Perhaps some other members of his Party might regard it as of more importance but it is not deemed imi:,ortant by the 770'/

December 6, 1974. Tape 1941 RH - 3 Leader of the Opposition, What did I hear today, Mr. Speaker, when I turned on the radio to listen to CJON news at one fifteen? 770~

December 6, 1974 Tape no. 1942 What did I hear? I heard the Leader of the Opposition making fantastic pronouncements on the fiaherv. AN HON. MEMBER: No! MR. CROSBIE: Yes, he had fresh proposals on the fishery Page l - MRW today at 1:15 P.M. on CJON News. Presumably, he knew that this was going to be debated this afternoon. I do not know whether he had a copy of it. He was going to revolutionize the fishery. The honourable gentleman now being out of power and having no responsibility for what government does is completely irresponsible in his statements and utterances.

Be was going, today at 1:15 P.M., to set up a fresh fish marketing board. 0 He was going to whip the fishery into shape in two or three brief moments on CJON. That honourable gentleman who had three years in the government when nothing was done was overnight going to do that. He was going to implement the Harris Report, which he thought was of the first importance and all the rest of it. Well that is certainly inconsisten ,t with his statements of just a few weeks ago that the appointment of a cabinet minister to the Department of Fisheries is a demotion. Now, Mr.

Speaker, one thing which should be very clear to the honourable gentlemen of this House (Some of them are trying to obscure it, particularly those on the other side.) is what the constitutional position is in the fishery. What is the constitutional position? I was dumbfounded here about a week ago, when a few words were being said about the fishery in this House, when I had pointed out that the fishery, that what happens as soon as you put your toe in the water and step off the land as far as the fishery is concerned that that was the constitutional responsibility of the Government of Canada.

We have not a jot ner a tittle of jurisdiction over the fish, not while it is in the water. You might have something to say about it when it is landed and goes into a plant. It is the Government of Canada who has the constitutional responsibility and the power in connection with the fishery. 7709

December 6, 1974 Tape no. 1942 Page 2 Mr. Speake~, I was amazed to hear the Ron. Leader of the Opposition try to scoff at that and intimate that it was not so and that this government had the responsibility. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Yes, that is what the honourable gentleman did and that is what he will continue to do. That is what he will do all during this crisis, Mr. Speaker, no matter what is done by the Government of Canada or the Government of Newfoundland. He will try to say that it is the Government of Newfoundland that has the responsibility.

That will be his policy because his policy is one of complete and ~ross and utter irresponsibility hecause all he wants to do is fasten and fatten on any misfortune that strikes the Province of Newfourtdland to try to ~ain some political advantage from it, That has been his course of action. Perhaps, he will be more statesman like, if he speaks on this resolution this afternoon. One can only hope so. The signs and the portents are not good, they are not ~cod, that the Leader of the Opposition will take a statesman like position on this matter. We can hope for the best, but the signs are not good.

Now here is the B.N.A. Act, Mr. Speaker. We did not pass it;· we did not think it up; we did not invent it. It was passed in 1867. We had nothing to do with it. Not one of us ia 104 yeara old. We were not even around when this was passed by the four provinces that originally confederated, MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible), "IR. CROSBIE: You were not there "Ank"? Now what doea Section (91), subeectio'lll(lO) and (12) say?

Section (91) outlines the powers of the Parliament of Canada and (12) says that they have authority exclueively with t••P•ct to these matters, It says: "Seacoast and inland ft.heriea a'l'e within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Government and Patlia11Mtnt of Canada," 7710

December 6, 1974 Tape no. 1942 Page 3 - MW Section (92) sets out what matters are within the competence of Provincial Legislatures and the word "fish" is not mentioned in any one of them. Quite clearly the fishery, the fish, is within the consititutional and legal jurisdict i on of the Government of Canada. If, Mr.

Speaker, as a result of Canada not having been ahlt~ to take action that would preserve the fishery res ource, if as a result of that , the fishing industry of Newfoundland and Nova Sco t ia and Eastern Canada is in desperate straits today, it is the Government of Canada . that h as the legal, the moral and the constitutional responsibility and power to do and to take the measures that mus.t be taken to save the fishing industry of Eastern Canada. They do not deny tha t. I have not heard them deny it yet.

The only one I heard scoff a"t it is the Leader of the Oppposition who wants to tty to convince the people of Newfoundland that all responsibility for this lies 7711

necemher 6, 1Q74 Tape 1943 Pl< - 1 with us, the little Provincial Government of Newfoundland. Well that is not the case. I would not advise him to try to spread it to the nublic hecause if we had to go up and down the length and breadth of Newfoundland and Labrador and across the nominion of Canada to establish that fact, we will do it. It will be irrefutable and irrefragable and irreconcilable. It is no trouble to you. P.N HON. '-'VIBER, "R.

CROSBIE, Now that is the constitutional position, and we are p.oing to look to the Government of Canada, and if they do not do what we think they should ~o. ~ut we have every confidence thev will, you will hear us on the hilltops and in the valleys and in the outports and in the inports and in the c1ties and on the beaches sayinp, AN HON. MF.MBER: F.ven at Hogan's Pond. '-!R. CROSBIE: Even at Hogan's Pond - To make the welkin ring but I do not think that is going to be necessary because one of the encouraging things, Mr.

Speaker, ahout the present situation is that the Government of Canada seems to be well aware of its responsibilities. We hope and expect that a major prorramme of assistance to the fishery will come out of this ~ecause if it does not I do not think there is any sense trying to fool ourselves that the fishing industry of F.astern Canada will be doomed. Now what is the importance of the fishery to Newfoundland.

Having established the constitutional position, and I hope we ,~ill never hear it suggested again that this is all our responsihility, the province's responsibility 1 constitutionally we do not have it,hut the province, Mr. Speaker, can support the fishing industry, it can make loans to fishermen, it can subs1.dize gear, it can do these other kinds of subsidiary things but we cannot licence fishermen, we cannot control the fishing resource, we have no jurisdiction there. !,le can help the industrv. We can hell' the fishermen. We can do things on land.

We have jurisdiction on property and civil riP,hts, and, of course, the Government of Newfoundland attl!lllpts to do that. Now how important is the fishery in Newfoundland today? I1 it 1ome 11 ,, ooor foolish thing that we should just allow to die sway, burn the boat• (that uas the old !!logan) ''hurn the boats". Is that the position? Should we forRet the fishery as it seems to have been for~otten for many years or should we take some action to help save it? How important is it to the 7712

necember 6, 1074 Tape 1943 PK - 2 province? Well, Mr. Speaker, just a few figures: In 1969, the total labour force in this province was 146,000. The number of fishermen inshore and offshore was 17,770 (that is including part-time fishermen). The total number of fisheries production and related workers was 4,400, so the total in direct employment in the fishing industry was 22,170: and fishing industry employment as a percentage of the labour force was 15.2 per cent. That was in 1969. Now in 1973, our labour force waP 180,000. ~he number of fishermen inshore and off1hore was 15,342.

The number in fisheries oroduction and related works was 5,700, for a total direct employment in the fishing industry of 21,042 or 11.7 per cent of the labour force. So there has been a small decline in total direct employment in the fishing industry but it is still, Mr. Sneaker, the emoloyer of 11.7 per cent of our total labour force in this province. There is no way particularly with the geographic location of fishermen, there is no way that this province could ever tolerate a situation where the fishery had collapsed. Now what is the main oroblem. Here are some figures that illustrate.

It is not a figment of anvone's imagination that the decline in the resource is the real source of trouble at the moment, Mr. Speaker. In 1969, the total amount of sea fish landings in this province, in thousands of pounds, was one billion nine rnillior and four pounds, one billion nine million nounds landed, it had a ·value of $29,455,000. Then it declined in 1970, and 1971 and 1972 until 1973 the amount landed was 675 million 7713

December 6, 1974 Tape 1944 IB-1 pounds having a value of $47 million. The value has been going up and up as the landings decreased. In the first ten months of 1973 - the first ten months now to compare to this year to see what is happening this year - in the first ten months to t~e end of October, 1973, 600,619,000 pounds of fish were caught. For the first ten months of 1974 only 439,141,000 pounds were caught. In other words, Mr. Speaker, in 1974 we are going to catch and land in this province only one-half the total weight of fish that was landetl in 1969.

Now, with codfish, just to look at codfish for those years; 239 746,000 pounds landed in 1969 and 177,560,000 in 1973. For the first ten months of 1973, 171,636,000 landed and for the first ten months of this year only 139,748,000 pounds of codfish landed in this province. Well, Mr. Speaker, surely those figures there very simply show what the problem is.

If only half the amount of fish is being caught and the number of processing plants have increased and their capacity has increased and the number of fishermen has stayed almost the same even though the value of the product caught is up, there is no way that the men involved in the fishery and the people proce&Bing the fish can make a decent living or a decent return on their money. That is the difficulty, that is the problem with which we are faced, Mr. Speaker.

Now, I have the quantity and value of all fish landings and species but it is not necessary to give all of those figures, In 1973 we had 13,195 inshore fishermen, that is fishermen on boats twenty­ five gross tons and under; 2,147 offshore fishermen on boats twenty-five gross tons and over for a total of 15,342. Fifty-seven hundred people work1ng in fish plants - that is the importance of the industry to this province, Mr. Speaker. Its importance cannot be over emphasized.

Before getting into the present crisis and the present situation, I would like to look for a few minutes at what has thi• government done in connection with the fishery, what has its policy been, how baa it behaved as compared to the last government or to anything that has 7714

December 6, 1974 Tape 1944 IB-2 happened in the last few years - a look at it generally, How important do we regard the fishery? How important did we regard it before this present crisis? Just let us look at that for a moment. I hope the Leader of the Opposition can hear me he is so very concerned about the fishery. HR. WOODWARD: He has his PH's - MR. CROSBIE: Good. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in 1970-1971 the expenditures of the govermnent of Newfoundland on the fishery - that was the Liberal Govermnent - it was the last year of that glorious administration, the Smallwood Administration which, for a few brief moments, a few weeks ago, we thought might come flashing back again but it turned out to be a flash in the pan. MR. MURPHY: The contract was out. MR. CROSBIE: The total amount spent by the govermnent of Newfoundland on the fishery in 1970-1971 was $3,033,000. I am leaving off the cents. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How much? MR.

CROSBIE: $3,033,000 of a budget of, I guess it was in that year, $450 million or $500 million. $3 million was spent gross. That is the total gross expenditure by Her Majesty's Outport Government of those days, on the fishery, $3,033,000. HR. COLLINS: Who was the minister that year? !IR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman who was the minister, I think)sits opposite biting his lips with frustration at the trouble he had to get any money for his department from the Smallwood Administration. They would not give anything to the fishery.

They would give it to anything else, any crackpot who came in with any foolish kind of a scheme to get money to develop any kind of nonsensical industry such as the light bulb industry, the glow worm industry and all the rest of it. They got unlimited amounts of money but the poor honourable Earl when he was Mintster of Fisheries could only get $3,033,000. MR. WINSOR: What year is the honourable minister referring to? MR. CROSBIE: 1970-1971. MR. WINSOR: 1970-1971. Now, to get the record straight, the minister need not get all excited and carried away.

I am stating this in order that he should get his facts straight. I was appointed minister in July 7715

December 6, 1974 Tape no. 1945 Page 1 - MW in 1971 and the election was in October, 1971. That is the length of time I had as mj_nister of this province. _A_N_ H_O_N_._ME_.MB_~~.R~: _ _ You did not anticipate the election. l·fT'. CROSBIE: I was .1ust going to say, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable gentleman brought about an improvement. I was coming to that. Mll • WINSOR: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: ------ The honoorable gentleman over there brought about a dramatic improvement.

I have to admit it, because in the financial year, 1971-1972 that ende~}!arch 31, 1972, the amount spent by the administration of that day was $6,460,000. It had practically doubled. From January to March, the new administration was in and although I have not examined this , I would say that a great deal of that _$6 million odd was spent in those three months. It was an improvement. It went from $3 million. You see in 1970-1971, there was goinp to be an election • Why bother spending anything on the fishery if there was going to be no election; That would be a silly waste of money.

You have to give a few handouts in an election year. In the election year 1971-1Q72, it doubled up to $6,460,000, Mr. Speaker, what is being spent this year on the fishery? What is being spent this year? Is it $7 million? Is it $8 million? Is it $10 million? Is it a dramtic doubling · to $12 million? No, it is $16,501,000 that we will spend this year gross on the fishery Mr. Speaker. It is $16, 501,500. If the Treasury Board does not get me under control, it might go to $32 million , SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. CROSBIE: They are going to have their work cut out for them.

Them shy~ters in the Treasury Board are going to get it. We are not paying any attention to their strictures, not when it comes to the fisheries, , We are going to lash it out They will have to get up early in the morning to get ahead of us, Oh, there is the President of the Treasury Board. AN HON. ~EMBF,~: (Inaudible). 771ti

December 6, 1974 Tape no, 1945 Page 2 MR. CROSBIE: That is $16 million. That is two and one-half times as much as 1971-1972 and it is five times as much as was spent in 1970- 1971. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think that alone shows that we attach a great deal more interest - AN RON. MEMBER: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot take this. He cannot stand this abase of the Treasury Board, Now, I do not want to spend a lot of time on the present policies and so on. A lot of it is in that annual report that I handed out today. Whst is the fishery policy of the government?

To put it briefly, the fishery policy of the present government is oriented towards maximizing the economic benefits which accrue to fishermen , plant workers, processors and the province by rational exploitation of the fishery resource. That is the main policy . objective. What has happened to the Department of Fisheries since we took over insofar as staff and organization is concerned? In January, 1972, Mr. Speaker, they had forty-six employees only.

This miniscule, tiny, ignored, undernourished, famished, gutted, Department of Fisheries that was left when the last administration went out after twenty-two years of benign neglect of the fisheries had forty-six employees. Some of them were rusticated. What have they got today, November , 1974? They have ninety-one vigorous, clever, hard-working, energetic employees. It has doubled in the number of employees alone. There are presently twelve positions authorized but unfilled. (Inaudible). AN HON • MEMBER: _MR. CROSBIE: When the Ron.

Member for Gander was Minister of the Department of Fisheries he was a savage man to combat in Treasury Board when we wanted more positions. There are twelve there now that we are looking for people to fill. The departaent is now organized in a more efficient and more beneficial manner as is shown in this booklet. 7711

necember , 1974 Tape no. 1945 Page 3 We have nothing to hide. We are not afraid to show how the department is organized. You cou1d not find out before. You would have to be there a year or two t .o find out how it is organized. Mr. SpeRker, now it is organized so that there is a minister, a chairman of the fisheries loim board and his organizatiQn and the department is divided into two main functions with two assistant deputy ministers; one, f:l.shery development which covers the fishery develoP1Mnt divisioo and fishery t-echnology, market research. AN HON. ME BER: (Inaudible). MR.

CROSBIE.: Yes, I heard the Leader of the Opposition 111ention the markets today. Well we have a market re11earch and project development division in the Depart:Jllent of Fisheries,. It 111.aa unheard of before. On the other side of the department, t .here is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Fishexy. Services: Incentives and Assistance Division: Engineering and Facilities Division,. organized to provide services and facilities t~ the fishermen of Newfoundland, smoothly and efficiently. The two sections are headed:

(1) Mr. GQrdon Slade, Assis .tant neputY Minister of Fishery Development;

(2) Mr. · Joseph Burden, Assistant 771'd

December 6, 1974. Tape 1946 RH - l Deputy Minister of Fishery Services, two brilliant young Newfoundlanders who are doing a fine job as any member in this House who has to deal with them knows. 1ow, I just want to briefly touch on some of the programmes just to show how this government has regarded the fishery and the programmes that were in effect before the present crisis even hit us. There is a special assistance pro11:ramrne , gePr replacement, that was brouitht into effect this year as a result of the ice damage, with the assfst.'lnr .P nf thP Government of Canada but we had to do it anyway.

Luckily for us because we need all of the help we can get , the Government of Canada is sharing the special programme, Gear Replacement Programme from, I think it goes from St. Shott,: on the East Coast here, up the Northeast Coast and around the Northwest Peninsula to Cape St.Gregory and then up the Labrador Coast. One hundred per cent of the cost of replacement of fishing gear is being naid bv the Federal-Provincial Government. ThAt is going to cost us, we think, the two governments around $4 million this year.

We replaced to date 9,000 ground-fish gill nets, 9,000 gill nets replaced under this programme and 2,000 salmon nets to date. We are now ahout to issue orders for the material to construct and repair approximately 400 cod traps, 400. Compensation for the loss of lobster pots will be paid directly to the fishermen and the covering cheaues are going to he mailed within the next seve ·ral weeks. They are going to get cheques,I think it is, for half the cost of replacing the lobster pots. When they show they have replaced it, next spring they will get the other half.

We are cost-sharing that with the Federal Government. Now, if it does cost $4 million, under the formula where we pay the first $540,000 arid then the Federal Government starts to share and shares more heavily as the amount increases, under that formula the cost to the Province will probably be about $1,480,000 and the rest of it will be a cost to the Government of Canada. That is if it amounts to $4 million. We have spent to date $1,100,000. Claims outstanding are $1,700,000. The estimated cost of the cod trap lost is $1,300,000. We estimate the 771':J

necemher F, 1974 . Tape 1946 RTT - 2 tot~l cost as bein~ s4,1nn,noo. Then, Mr. Speaker, there i~ the Fishing Gear Subsidization Programme which became effective May 18, 1Q74, introduced by my predecessor who by the way was responsible for all of this work of reorganization in the Department of Fisheries and responsible for the initiation of this Gear Renlacement Progranune, in fact responsible for all the programmes and proiects that Tam going to mention. I have only been there since October. This was all un<lerway. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: No, he forgot his district an~ spent his time on the fisheries. So what I am now telling the House, Mr. Speaker, reflects great credit on the honourable member from Gander who is now in Forestry and Agriculture doing a similiar,wonderful job. There is a new Fishing Gear Subsidization Programme. It came into effect on the eighteenth of May and I will not go into all of the details except to say that it is vastly expanded and that when a fisherman who now goes to buy gear, there is considerable assistance for him. I will not p,o into all of the detail.

The Fisheries Loan Board, just to brinp. the House up to date on what is happening this year, where the government provides fishermen loans at a subsidized interest rate of three and a-half per cent. Now, Mr . Speaker, this money costs us when we borrow it ten and a half or eleven per cent bltt we lend it to the fishermen at three and a half per cent. Reverse usery, we are useriag ourselves. They get it at three and a half and it costs us, say when we borrow, ten or ten and a half or eleven per cent.

This year the Fisheries Loan Board has made so far 175 81Tlall loans to fishermen, either to construct fishing vessels or purchase used vessels or nurchase new en~ines or purchase electronic equipment or other equipment; 175 small loans totalling $150,000: 164 loans to purchase used fishinp, vessels, ~l,400,000: sixty-one loans for new lon~liners, $1,400,000, There are presently forty-ei~ht lonp,liners under construction. The total amount of loans to date this year - MR. WOODT,ARD: How many longliners - 7720

December 6, 1974. Tape 1946 RR - 3 MR. CROSBIE: There are maybe five or six. I do not know the exact number. The total ;,.mount loaned to date then or expected to be loaned by the end of this ~onth is $3,033,000. That is not the full financial year. That is a considerable amount of assistance to the fishermen. Do not let - 7721

December 6 • 1974 Tape 1947 Pk - l ~he Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, got up in this House and said, "We have done nothing to help the fishermen." I have just given three programmes . This is a tremendous Progressive Conservative concept, Then there were bounties to the fishermen, AN HON. MEMBER: The Liberal concept "Burn your boats," MR.

CROSBIE: I will not go into the bounties but there are a number of different kinds of bounties, This year to the end of October we have paid out $86,000 in the small boat footage bounty, $114,000 in the tonnage bounty for longliners, $24,000 in the rebuilding and the repair bounty, What else have the government done, Mr, Speaker, If I really wanted to go into detail on this I could keep the House this afternoon and tonight and tomorrow and Sunday and I would still be outlining programmes of assistance for the fishermen, most of which have been instituted, inaugurated, consolidated and carried out by the present administration, AN HON.

MEMBER: That is a continuation of the Liberal policy, MR, CROSBIE: AN HON . MEMBER: MR. CROSBIE: The Liberals had - Burn your boats policy. Three million dollars the Liberals spent in 1970-1971 on this whole programme, $3 million was all that they could squeeze out of their genes for that. This year it is $16 million, What else is being done?

Well, Mr, Speaker, when this government took over the administration of the province in January 1972 we discovered a case of chaos in the fishing industry particularly with reference to Burgeo where the union and the management of the company were invloved in a death struggle.

The management did not seem to want to recognize the righta of labour and so in this day and age, an irreconcilable situation, to reaalve· which the government purchased the fish plant at Burgeo for aeveral million  of dollars and it has cost the Government of Newfoundland conaidarabla ainca, Purchased it, not for any economic reason and not for any political raaaan but for social reasons because the situation had to be resolved in B~raaa when the plant was purchased, AN HON . MEMBER: Inaudible, 772t.

December 6, 1974 Tape 1947 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman should go down there and get his hair attended to. It is a little lengthy in the flanks. He should have. his hair Marcelled or whatever they call it. AN HON. MEMBER: The beauty parlour burned down, go down and get it singed. MR. CROSBIE: Anyway that was the Burgeo - had to take over the Burgeo fish plant, Mr.

Speaker, for social reasons, for reasons of social justice and we are today struggling with the problem of establishing a new and modern plant there with the cost of the Liberal inflation that struck Canada in the last two or three years. The effects of the Liberal inflation is causing trem~ndous cost increases down there. Yes, there is inflation elsewhere in the world but the Government of Canada are only responsible for what happens in Canada. Anyway I am not going to criticize the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker. I have a warm relationship with Don.

He and I are heart to heart and brain to brain and cheek to jowl, money bag to money bag, most of it coming this way I hope. So that was the Burgeo's fish industries plant. We have made several guarantees of loans for processors of fish, most Of them smaller people, Mr. Janes at Hant's Harbour who has since paid it off and so on. That programme is continuing where it is necessary. I will not go into the details of all of that. We have assisted Fishery Products Limited to acquire three more draggers by agreeing to guarantee fifty per cent of the lease payments. I will not go into the details on that.

You know it is staggering, I mean it boggles the imagination what is being aone in this department this year. A positive, and extraordinarv coun was the entering into with the Government of Canada of a DREE agreement, subsidary agreement to provide twelve marine service centres in the province, twelve, not eleven, Mr. Speaker, I never said, eleven. I did not say ten. I did not say nine. I did not say one. I said, twelve. AN HON. MEMBER: Who started it? MR. CROSBIE: We started it. The first one was in Port Saunders, it was a fifty/fifty agreement.

I remember well when I used to listen to the honourable gentleman who used to sit there, and he used to say, not 10,000, not 5,000, twelve marine service centres. :Now the honourable gentleman is mixed up, the Marine Service Centre you were involved in, that went down to Logy Bay but it 772J

December 6, 1974 Tape 1947 PK - 3 has not done much for the fishermen yet. This is marine service centres, a new concept of - the first of them opened up in the honourable gentleman for Twillingate's District. What a government, Mr. Speaker! No political discrimination, everything even-handed. 7724

December 6, 1974, Tape 1948, Page 1 -- apb The resolution, if I may read it, states: "Now therefore

be it resolved that this House of Assembly convened support the efforts of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in conjunction with the Government of Canada to devise a system of financial assistance for the fish industry of Newfoundland and Labrador that would permit the fishing industry of Newfoundland and Labrador to continue to operate in a manner that permits the efficient and properly managed company to gain a reasonable return on its invesbnent and the fishermen and worke-r in the industry to receive fair and adequate returns for his labour until such time as the recovery of the fishing resource on the inshore and Continental Shelf waters off the East Coast of Canada permits a self-sustaining industry to operate once again and this Honourable House of Assembly convened urges and enjoins the Government of Canada to take unilateral action during 1975 to control the fishing resource on the inshore and Continental Shelf waters off the East Coast and so forth." Now, Sir, the point of the point of order is this: The minister has gone at long-length to trace the history of the accomplishments of his department, of his own department since taking over and since the administration took over.

He has taken the opportunity to criticize unjustly so, the actions of the previous Liberal Administration and Sir, this has nothing to do with the resolution that I just read to this honourable House. So, Sir, I suggest that the minister return to the resolution and that he should be ruled out of order on the grounds of being irrelevant. MR ~ SPE~ I am sure the honourable member has heard this Chair say many times that the rule of relevancy is a difficult one to rule on. It appears as if the honourable minister may have been carried ~~a-y, his debate may have been a little irrelevant to the resolution. MR.

CROSBIE: That I am doing now, Mr. Speaker, is showing what we have done to trv to establish a healthy and viable fishing industry that provides a decent living for the fishermen of this province and I shall be strictly relevant, never fear! 772'J

December 6, 1974, Tape 1948, Page 2 -- apb We have had to sit here for three of four days and listen to vapourings, pukings and mulings about electoral redistribution. When we get a chance to speak and expound Ut>On some of the things the government have done honourable gentlemen wincing and flinch and skinch and interrupt with specious points of order. Ridiculous! Now this is a picture of the marine service centre up in Durrell with the boats actually hauled out of the water. Our service centres work.

AN _IIO_N2EMBER: A Liberal District. ~~ fROSBIE: The Liberal District of Twillingate, It does not matter it is 1ustified from the fishery point of view. The honourahle gentleman there will see that this is a oicture of the centre, the first one comoleted. ~ __ 1!_0_~:YPffiER: That should be your Christmas card. MR~ CROS_BIE: That should be my Christmas card, yes, All right! AN J!.O..N.!..l_lEMBER: The picture, you mean? MR. CROSBIE: We shall get one for the honourable gentleman. I am going to try to clue up this part of my remarks quickly, Mr. Speaker, because we want to get on with the problem.

Twelve marine service centres that the federal government agreed now, under a DREE Agreement, to finance ninety per cent of the cost of and the whole programme is going to total (I just have to look at it quickly here again) almost $12 million. Wesley:ville, Harbour Grace, Durrell, Old Perlican, Bonavista, Port Saunders on which construction has started and six which are in the planning stages; Isle aux 'Morta·, Port Union, LaScie, Fogo Island, thr- Placentia Bay - St, Marys' Area and Englee. Another aii;reement under which water supplies are 11:oing to fish plants.

Eleven fish plants are going to be assisted in financing the provision of waterlines to those fish plants at Port aux Basques, Bumt Islands, Little Bay Islands, Newstead, Comfort Cove (the Honourable Si,eker's District) We have not forgotten the Speaker. Hermitage, Southern Harbour, St. Bride's, Admiral's Beach, Valieyfield, 7726

necemher 6, 1974, Tape 1948, Pap,e 3 -- aph Bay Bulls and New H,uhour. Ml ... HO~ ._MEMBER: Northing for Harbour Main-Bell Island? AN _HO_N . __ MEMBER: What about Labrador? ~ -~ q_SBIE: If the honourable member taunts I shall go on for a half-hour. In addition, Mr. Speaker, another $1.S million for various water sunolies to fish handling facilities. This is a P,iP,antic programme. Labrador is going to get first-class attention do not worry about that. Now, I am just dealing with this year, Mr, Speaker.

We are spending approximately $4 million on marine service centres. $1.6 on fish handling facilities:(small little facilities around the island where the fishermen need them) $460,000 on slipways and haulouts, $593,000 on labour intensive nrojects and $492,000 on access roads, water sunply, refrigeration and the like. $7,194,000 on those kinds of facilities. It is remarkable! It is a remarkable programme initiated bv mv predecessor and carried out by his department. If any honourable gentleman is interested I have all the places where this is goinp, on.

I shall not read it all because it will take too long. ~J!_()_N_., _MEMBER: Aw! Go on and read it. MR. CROSBIE: No, I shall not do it unless I am taunted into it. Thirty-eight projects: Fish handling facilities - Baine Harbour, Fox Harbour, Admiral's Reach, Hermitage, Belleoram, Sibleys Cove, Port au Choix, Piccadilly, Trout River, Winterton, Peter's River, Anchor Point! Anchor point! Anchor Point, Fair Haven, SeAl Cove, Seldom, Port Saunders, Brig Bay, Rocky Harbour, LaScie- 772'/ I I I · .I ·; ; • . \ j ., -1 I I i • . ' i l • l :1 I ··I ·.1

December 6, 1974 Tape 1949 IB-1 ~IR. NEARY: What about Harbour Main? -~ - CROSBIE : Rocky Hartour, La Scie - I discriminate against Harbour Main, it is one of our districts - Newmans Cove, Harbour Grace, Herring Neck, Upper Jenkins Cove - that is a new one on me - Garden Cove, Blue Cove, Conche, Leading Tickles, Merasheen, Oderin, Bay L'Argent, Fox Island River, Lawn, C811lpbellton, Salvage, Musgrave Harbour, Blue Beach, Bauline South , various communities , fifteen, for electrical services - Port de Grave . That is just fish handling facilities. fhen I could go on with slipways and haulouts.

Heart's Content, Charlottetown, Labrador, Cape Broyle, Job's Cove, on and on and on. I will not read all the names. _!,N HONOURABLE MnmER: Ten years old. MR. CROSBIE: Not ten years old. This is all projects going on this year. Honourable gentlemen hate to hear what we are doing for the fishermen because they wanted to get up in the House and say we are doing nothing or we are doing next to nothing when we are doing all that money and people can do . Now, I could go on , Mr. Speaker. I should give everybody a copy of this red file because it is fascinating what we are doing, just fascinating.

Grants to industry - we have not got time this afternoon to go into it, what we are trying to do in fish harvesting technology and diversification. There is the Bonavista Cold Storage Company where they are trying new methods there; John Penny and Sons - most of these are shared cost with the federal government , fifty-fifty. Beothuck Fish - well, I may have to go into detail on some of this, The Newfoundland Hawk is being converted with our assistance and the federal government's)to triple parallel fishing. The Newfoundland Hawk is a vessel owned by Bonavista Cold Storage.

In co-operation with the federal government we are spending $160,000 with Penny'  at Rallea to convert the side trawler, "Penny Luck The Second'' to a bottom and mid water trawler . I 8Jll only skimming the surface of what is going on. We are providing a grant of $150,000 - I do not know if this ha• baen inade public before to Beothuck Fish Processors Limited of Valleyfield to 7728

December 6, 1974 Tape 1949 IB-2 assist them in the vessel performance study of the "Beothuck Venture" which is an eighty foot, multi-purpose trawler designed and built in Norway. That is the district of the honourable gentleman from Bonavista North. It matters not to us whose district it is or what party. AN HONnURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: That is Beothuck Fish. There is another $50,000 being spent to convert the "Mac Mariner II", a fifty-eight foot conventional long liner o~med by T.J. Hardy, to convert her to inshore and middle distance, mechanized long lining,introducing the Mustab Auto-Line system.

I have not had a chance yet to find out what all these systems are but I say they sound quite wonderfui. There is another - the Harmon I and the Harmon II, these two vessels that were brought over to Harmon for the herring fishery in Harmon and were surplus, they were of no account, they went by the boards when the herring operation closed up. They have now been converted, Mr.

Speaker, for mechanized long lining and gill netting>equiped with the Mustab Auto-line System and a full shelter deck equiped to fish 18,000 to 20,000 hooks and they can change from long lining to gill netting with a minimum of lost fishing time. They have now been converted to refrigerated bait aud fish holds. Those two vessels are going to be operated now by the department. One is already being operated to see how this works, to see if they are successful. If they are successful, they will be sold or leased or some arrangement will be entered into after the experimental period.

Now, $500,000 is being spent on each vessel to convert them for that programme. There is a. Norwegian captain and engineer assisting in the training of the crew as to how to operate the new system. We have got the three, sixty-five foot steel, multi-purpose vessels under construction in Marystown shipyard. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes and it is very nice. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Okay. - underway at the Marystown shipyard. The object 7729

December 6, 197.4 Tape 1949 IB-3 of that is to shpw the viability of su.ch vessels artd they have got the latest. This is. -putting it 111ildly, These vessels are of radical design, with all kinds of new equipment. They are going to have a capability to fishJground fish trlJWla, mid-water t-ra.wls lllld stern seines on a single voyage. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: When they find them. MR. CROSBIE: When they find whllt? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fish. !·!R. CROSBIE: Oh, that is right. The houourable gentleman is quite right, if they find the fish.

So, these are just some of the things that are goipg on, In addition to tha .t, there is a lot of work being done in product development, I wish I had the time to really go into what has been accomplished. I was amazed and dUlllbfounded, Mr. Speaker, and I have a wide experience in goverma.ent, inside and out, outside tl:ying to get in, ~•id• trying to get in, 7730

December~. 1974 Tape no. 1950 Pa11:e in government departments to see the amount of work that is being done for the Department of Fisheries of Newfoundland in the last MW year or two years. I will not go into inshore drum-ring nets,seining and all the rest of the things that are going on. That is just to ~ive a picture. Now, of course, Mr . Speaker, we have the Fishing Inrlustry Advisory Board underway with Mr. Rupert Prince. We could not find a chairman. We were criticized for a year. The government looked everywhere for a chairman. There was nobody who would take the iob. It was too hot to handle.

They did not want to get in the middle. There is no one who wanted to be Chairman of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board because they felt it would be a position too hot to handle between the union and the companies. We had to search over twelve months until finally not being able to find any outsider, who would accept or who was capable, we had to persuade Mr. Rupert Prince, who was the Deputy Minister of Fisheries, to become Chairman of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board. The poor man needs to increase his insurance.

I hope he has doubled or tripled it before the insurance companies find out how hazardous that post may he. He was appointed several months ago. Mr. Speaker, I think I mentioned to the House last week what is going on there now. He and his group are now working on developing the system, getting the information they need to make that really effective and functioning in advising the department, the government , the union and the companies as to what is happening to the prices, what is happening in the fishing industry. There will be legislation introduced in the House next winter in connection with that hoard.

They will have the power to subpoena information if the information is not forthcoming freely to them. Mr. F.A. J. iaws is now being appointed secretary to the board. They are getting legal advice. They 7731

ne,cember 6, 1974 Tape 1950 PK - 2 have a small group of people who are developing all the necessary and to prepare the legislation that will be introduced during the winter. It is going to cost by the way, ~r. Speaker, this will show you that money is of no oh.1ect when it comes to the fishing industry, at least in small doses, it is going to cost S88,000 for the next four months, the work being done by the fishing industry advisory board. Now that is just a brief covering, Mr. Speaker, of some of the things that the government - AN H011l. ~!EMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: No, because I want to give other gentleman a chance to speak, because I want to hear what kind of statesmanlike statements are: going to be made. Well just one other illustration, There is a fiaherie~ de,,elopment liaison committee now, Mr. Speaker, set up by the provincial department where representatives of the fish companies and the fiaherinen frc•m around the province and federal officials and our officials meet quarterly to review the various experiments that are going on in the fi1hery, There was s meeting just on December 4, I was there for a few momenta, I havP. here what their agenda was.

The kinds of things they are discussing in getting the fisher,nen and the trade and the two govemmenta together, Labrador shell fish and seed weed survey, drum-ring net, seining project in Trinity Bay, automatic longlining, scallop farming proj1ct1, the Labrador barge facility.

The one item I forgot to mention wa1 the new experiment of puttinp, a barge up on the J,abrador Coa1t to a11i1t in the fiahery, the ' Harmon veaaele and ao on and ao forth, th v1riou1 items that they discussed at that meeting and varioua report , Th1t ii a very important step forward to have thia fi1hing devalopmant li1i10n committee, Welt 111] kind• of thinp:s like th1t are p:oinp: ahad, Now, Mr, Rpeaker, the1i to come to th innna~iat1 cri1i1 and to 11peak about th11t for a few minute , A• 111 honour1bla 11ntlamen 7731.

December 6 , 1974 Tape 1950 PK - 3 know the fishing i ndustry is not i n very ~ood strait s this year, aparr altoR ether from the ice problem. AN l!ON. MEt-fBER: MR. CRO!;BlE: AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Pardon? Inaudible.. HR. CROSBIE: Yes. Well despite all we are doin R, Hr. Speake r, of course , we can only assist on the periphery of this problem I explaine d at the s tart we do not control the resource. Now despi te all of the things that the government is attempting to do in assisting the 773.3

December 6, 1974, Tane 1951, Page l -- anb industrv. There is one indu.qtry where we cannot do very much and that is to protect since it is not our resTJonsil ·ilitv. As all members of the Hou.qe know, I guess it was in Aup.;ust, there was a trawler strike in thP. trawler fleet. The strike was illegal. Collective agreements had not expired and it was verv widespread and certainlv indicated that there was something fundamentallv wrong in the industrv. There wa.q certainlv a lot of di.ssatisfaction.

The Premier and the then ~inister of Manpower and Ind111Strial RelRtions, after four or five weeks, were able to p.et the narties together and v.et the tr=lermen to return to work on the ap.;reement that a conciliation board would be aTJpointed with certain broad terms of reference, that there would be a commission of enquiry into the whole fisherv and the matter was nublicized at that time. Now the conciliation board renort we have all seen. It was chaired bv Dr. Leslie Harris, Memorial Universitv and Mr. Paul Russell and Mr. Johnson representing the union were on the board.

The renort of the board illustrates, Mr. Soeaker, what the oroblem of the ind11strv is. I just want to touch on a few sections of the reoort here to illustrate some ooints. Dr. Harris points out that the vastly increased cstchinp, effort and the vastlv increased investment in ships and technologv, that despite this catches are continuing to decline and he establishes that beyond doubt. He Sl'l'CS the rate of depl{,tion is largely attributable to European fleets operating on the Continental-Shelf or waters ad.1acent to our coast, He 11;oes into the picture with respect to cod and he deals with that.

He says that we must create the conditions on page (15)1n which our own trawlers can justify their existence :l.n the economic sense and in which fish populations will suff:l.ciently recover to yield a viable and continuinp, return to both inshore and trawler fishermen. He noints out that we must convince Ottawa to make a unilateral declaration next year, if the Law of the Sea Conference is not successful and that is exactlv thP- po~ition that we have mentioned in this resolution. 7734

December 6, 1974, Taoe 1951, Page 2 -- anb He shows that declini~g volumes of production inevitably mean per unit costs and he outlines the various costs associated with the trawlers, that the unit costs increase as volume ~eclines. He had access to the records of all the comnanies that appeared before him and there were five of them, Mr. Speaker. Dr. Harris had access to all their financial records. Then he presents figures that show the average costs to the comnany of oroducing, prosessing and marketing a pound of fish on July 30, 1974.

Re illustrates h·ow cost and return are related to oroduct mix and exolains that. That your return deoends on the kind of fish you catch. Perch for example and yellowtail flounder are far less valuahle than other species. He finds that the composite figure (paP,e 20) comes to seventy-eight cents a pound. The cost of fish, labour, fixed costs and so on. He points out, of course, that the '!)rices vary by species and by pack and by product mix. So it is hard to give an average because it depends on the kind of fish they are getting.

Hesays that none of the five companies are able to produce the appropriate product mix. The reasons are not far to seek. The species and packs stretching the higher prices are precisely those in short supply. •·Perch: Everv sale of each pound of perch represented a loss in the order of twenty-nine cents. There is a preponderance of the least desirable of the flatfish the yellowtail and perch in the landings of all of the companies and that reduced their average selling price to a level well below that of production costs.

The board found that if these prices and costs obtained on July 30. continued they all would be sustaininp, heavy losses." "The market is sta~ant at a level that makes the Newfoundland trawler based industry less than viable. On page (27) he gave his conclusions about the state of the industry. '' "Fish landings were declining: The decline in landings meant lower earning levels for crewmen which resulted in loss of morale, problems in recruitment and the rest of it. The combination of the cost 773.j

Oecemher 6, 1974. Taoe 1951. Pa~e 3 - aoh of shios, the cost of monev. the cos t of fuel and su.oolies, the cost of lahnur all have increased itreatlv. Narke t onces were low . •· Then he concludes: ''The combination of the forel!;oillS! has nroduced a situation in which each of the five companies accounts were examined, has for several month~ oast and is at ores ent ·sustaininp, heavv losses . .. The he p,oes on to look as he was requested to at the soc ial requirements of trawler fish ermen. He heard evidence pointinp, to declinin2 comnetence amonR crewmen, difficulties 7730

December 6, 1974 Tape 1952 IB-1 of recruitment, high turn over of crews and so on so that he conclude that trawler fishing is not now a highly desired occupation. He goes on to examine that. He finds that deep sea fishing is becoming less and less attractive to Newfoundlanders. Then he looks at the income of trawler fishermen as compared to miners and the like and shows that the differential between the groups since 1970 has gone against the trawlermen over the last four years and that they have good reason to be dissatisfied with their lot. Now, it is important to ·notice something he says on page 33, Nr.

Speaker, because on page 33 he talks about the creation of a corp of professional trawler fishermen skilled in their trade. This is who he is suggesting should get paid the kinds of amounts that he mentioned. the professional trawler fishermen. Then he deals with professionalism which has nothing to do with punch clock mentality but implies a high degree of competence and pride in performance and hard work with a full appreciation of the essential fact, the profits are related to productivity and a greater individual effort is likely to lead to greater personal rewards. should not be forgotten, Mr. Speaker.

That Dr. Harris does not recommend what he recommends for the angishores and the few that are lazy and the ones who do not want to go out in twenty-four ships a year and so on. He is talking about professional trawlermen, skilled, who do a hard days work for a days pay. It is important to notice this: "If however " , Dr. Harris says, '' the fisherman can demand in equity an appropriate return on his investment of labour' ' , he says, "the capitalists can legitimately expect a returr. on his investment that makes the labour both possible and profitable." That should not be forgotten, Mr.

Speaker , because nearly every politician in the countr y , all of them , are willing to say that the trawler fishermen should have a higher income and reasonable return and a reasonable amount for his labour but very few of them will say a word about the fact that the trawler company or the entrepreneur or the businessman who has a fish co~pany must get some re~urn on his investment or he is not going to invest 7731 I I I I I I l !

De cember 6, 1974 Tape 1952 IB-2 in the fishery. That should not be forgotten. This is not just a crisis that affects the trawler fishermen nor the inshore fishermen. This is a crisis that affects the ,,,hole fishing industry of Newfoundland. If a man cannot invest money in the fishery and get a return on it, a decent return, he will not invest anything in the fishery. If I have $10.000 to invest and I l~ok at the fishery now, I certainly would not invest it. I would not see any chance of getting the return. I can invest it down with one of the trust companies and get ten or eleven per cent on my money.

I do not have to risk it. I do not have to do anything. I give them my $10,000. I do not have to do a tap and they will pay me ten, eleven or twelve per cent. So, I would be a fool to put that into the fishery unless I can make a return in the fishery. I think that cannot be overstressed because there is so much "Cheap Jack" politicizing about the situation. We will not have a fishing industry if we do not have entrepreneurs and risk takers who want to invest their money in it. That is why - MR.

MARTIN: Nationali?.e them. - - ----- l:!!:c· CRO~BIE: Nationalize them the honourable gentleman from Labrador South says. Yes, we should nationalize everything in this province so we can all share the poverty that would result. I am not against nationalizing the fishing industry if that was the only solution but I would do it with a great deal of reluctance. Where will we find the entrepreneurs to operate if the whole thing is owned by government? Where will we find the risk takers?

Where will we get the Paul Russells and the Harold Lakes and the Spencer Lakes and the Alec Moores and the people who are now in the industry and Mr. Ed Janes and all of these people who are in the industry now if we nationalized it? That is too simple a solution. Now, if there was no other answer, of course, sure. I do not care, nationalize anything if that is the most pragmatic thing to do and the only way it can be a success. ~1R. MARTIN : Subsidized would be the word. .!:!!l~ CROSBIE_:_ But I do not see any necessity for thnt. I say this, Mr.

Speaker, I am not one of those who is just going to go around critici2ing 1i' 38

December 6, i974 Tape 1952 IB-3 the Newfoundland Fishing Industry . There are a lot of good men in it that have done a good job,who have invested their money in this province and they should be recognized and get some appreciation for that. l include the Lakes and the Russell s and the Monroes and a whole host of others. I mentioned Alec Moores and Ed Janes and there are dozens more that I can mention, T.J. Hardy and all of the rest of them. Now, what their labour policy may be. I mean, 77 3';J

December 6, 1974 Tape 1953 PK - 1 they may b£, this one may he very reactionary in his labour policy and he may impose and fight the union to the death and so on and so forth. I am not discussing that. I think that is crazy and that is changed in any event but these men are hard workers and they put their money where their mouths are, AH HON • MEMBER : Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, they have taxpayers money too. They have had assitance from the government also. There is no reason why they should not as long as they follow general lines of government policy.

So I do issue any blanket condemnation of the industry of Newfoundland, that has aone certain things wrong but if we are going to have an industry you will not have it, if as Dr. Harris says "You have to have an appropriate return on the investment of labour and an appropriate return on the investment that makes the labour both possible and profitable." Now we nationalized everything in this province, Where is the money going to come from I wonder, to pay for governn,ent services and the rest of it.

What we want is the fishing industry where the men are well and deC'.ently paid, where they are making a profit and where they pay taxes to the Newfoundland Government so we can use it to expand or increase government services. So easy solutions can talk about nationalization, This is just not sensihle, National Sea - I have mentioned the Newfoundland owned companies - NRtional Sea, Atlantic Fish, R.C. Peckers, these companies may or may not stay in the industry.

They will not stay in the industry if they cannot see in the future, a year or two, or four or five years that they have some hope of making a return on their money, they will not stay. That is why the government have to come up now with a proper scheme, Rut to go on now and just to follow in Dr, Harria Report, he makes an i.mportant point there.

"It is not just the trawler fishermen and the fish plant worker that we have to think ahout," He says on page 35: "That a killed trawler fisherman who through productivity demonstrates his skill 1hould at the present time be ahle to claim earnings ranginr 6etween $13,000 to $20,000 per annum, for a work year averaging 240 days." He does not aay that 7740

December 6, 1974 Tape 1953 PK - 2 every trawler fisherman, he does not say that. It would not be practical. He says "A skilled trawl"r fisherman who through productivity demonstrates his skills." That has to be rememberad, Mr. Speaker. We should not forget that. Then in a lot of the next part of the report he deals with various points in the collective agreement, which I will not touch on now.

I only want to touch on the general principles, and to get to his conclusion or his conclusion in connection with the trawler fishermen. 'le suggests that the system should be changed by which remuneration is decided so that the significant ~igure would be the price of fish expressed in terms of cents per pound. It proposes a change there, and suggests that there should be a minimum income level for trawler fishermen. It goes into that. Then he makes certain findings about the cost per pound of landed fish and says. that it is four cents now frr the labour content.

What he proposes is that it will probably rise · to 5. 4 percent, that is if the minimUII' earnings for full-time fishermen during the next contract neriod should be $13,000 approximately.for twenty-four trips, averaging at least 150,000 pounds per trip. Now we have done our ovn calculations on that and think ft his cost figures are too low. "If that were done, he says, it would cost another one point four cents per pound." We think that it would be at least another cent per pound over that, and so on but these are details but important details. They will have to be dealt with in collective bargaining. Then Or.

Harris goes on to suggest how different changes in the way in which fishermen are paid and an income averaging formerly and so on. We do not need to go into it all here. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudihle. MR. CROSBIE: Well I am going to mention something about that now in just a couple of minutes. He concludes on ,page 77, Mr. Speaker. He says "It is our view that for several years to come and perhaps until more sensible fish management policies will have time to be implemented and to produce an effect, until the markets improve appreciably> the viability of the "7'"7 ~ 1 I I 'f,

December 6, 1974 Tape 1953 PK - 3 industry wilJ remain in doubt : 1 Ile recommends to government that immediate action be taken to establish a mechanism through which the companies can to operate while assuring the fishermen a fair return for their labours. Then the question is "What level of subsidy is required and how is it to be applied?" The answer to the first 7742

December 6, 1974 Tape 1954 IB-1 question will only be found after thorou~h analysis of each comp11ny's operation and continuously updated data and so on. Then he goes on to his conclusions, that if the trawler fishing industry is to be viable, returns to the fishermen must be substantially increased and so on and so forth. The government intervention must take the form of subsidy. There has to be a carefully controlled monitoring system. And the companies now are losing from twelve to thirty cents per pound of marketed fish and the rest of it. So, Dr. Harris's report then, Mr.

Speaker, illustrates what the great problem of the industry is today. He makes certain findings that the companies are losing money heavily. He finds really that there will not be a fishing industry if this continues for another period of six months or a year because they will have to give up operating. They cannot continue operating with such heavy losses. He finds that the main reason for the losses is the decline in the resource although the market has worsened. He has recommended that if you are going to have a trawler fishing industrv. the trawler fishermen must get more. They must get an increase.

Now, we agree with all of these major findings of Dr. Harris but this is a Conciliation Board Report, Mr, Speaker, and the parties have to meet and negotiate on the basis of it. We do not want government becoming so involved that there is no longer going to be collective bargaining in the fishing industry. So, we have to remember that. I am not saying whether Dr. Harris is correct in arriving at Sl3,000 as a minimum for a trawlerman that he should make if he goes on twenty-four trips. That is for the parties to bargain about.

The union was only asking for something that amounted to around $10,500 in the collective bargaining negotiations. It may be that they will settle at something less than that. Collective bargaining still has to take place and there are a lot of other points in the report that they still have to deal with. Before they can do anything, Mr. Speaker, they have to know what governments will do for them. Well, before the report was received 7743

December 6, 1974 Tape 1954 IB-2 I had seen the ~Unister of Fisheries in Ottawa and he was aware, from our conversation~ and from a trip he had to tlova Scotia about the serious problem in the fishing industry. First it was thought that this might just be another temporary situation such as happened three or four years ago but the minister is convinced by what he had heard, that this was indeed a very serious crisis and that there will be no fishing industry in Eastern Canada unless it is dealt with. He has appointed a study group headed by Mr.

Doucette of the Fresh Fish Marketing Board of Manitoba I t hink it is, to head their team of people. We have our task group here in the province who have met with them. We are constantly in touch with the industry itself and with the union.

Within the next two weeks anyway, by next week, they will be reporting to their minister or merely to the federal minister and presumably within a week or two after that or certainly during the month of December, it will be announced what assistance the government of Canada and this govermnent are going to give the trawler fishing industry to enable it to continue operating over the next few months, probably for an interim period, a period from September to March, so that there will be more time to develop a long term policy of assistance because t~e assistance is going to be needed, not just this year and not just the first half of next year, but it would appear likely that it is going to be needed for the next two, three, four or five years until the resource available to the Canadian fishermen is again sufficient.

If that kind of assistance does not come from government - and it must come primarily from the federal government, they have the money and they have a constitutional responsibility - if it does not, they will be making a conscious decision that it is not in the national interest to have an East Coast Fishing Industry. Now , the reason , Mr .

Speaker, presU111ably, that more vehement steps were not taken by the government of Canada to establish a 200 mile fishing zone or economic zone or 200 mile limit before, was because it was not felt to be in the national interest that they should anger and endanger their trading relations with other countries in the world, that the sale of wheat and the sale of manufactured products and so on and "/744

nececher 6,1974 Tape 1954 Ill-3 so forth was more important nationally than the fishing industry. They therefore, have not chosen to oct like Iceland or like some other country mi ght act that was dependant on the fishery. That havinf. been a choice of the government of Canada over the last five to ten years, that they would not stir and muddy up t he international waters and t heir trad e patterns and the rest of it by taking sterner stepa to protect the fishin g resource off F..ast Coast Canada .

That having heen thei r decision, we havin g been sacr1fice<l or the fishermen of t he F.ast Coast and the fish processors having been sacrificed to other soals considered to be in the national interest, then the government of Canada can surely fairly be asked now t o provide the money necessar y for the ne.'Ct four or five years to keep the industry operating and healthy and the fishermen employed , get ting additional level of remuneration 7745

December 6, 1974. Tape 1955 RH - l remuneration until the resource is sufficient for them to operate without ~ore government assistance. That is basically what the Government of Canada has been asked. 1t is very simple. That is what they have to come ·1n with because it is their duty to come up with it. I am not saying that they should have adopted a different position in the past or that their view of the national interest may not have been right over all,or that they had to do what they had to do. 1 do not want to critize them unjustly.

Rut that having been the position, then surely they must now take the steps necessary to keep this industry going so that the people who invested their money in it can see some light at the end of the tunnel. I mean these companies do not want government assistance. They prefer to be independent. ~'hen they get assistance from us and the Federal Government now they will no lonP,er be independent. They are not going to be allowed to operate just any way they like. They are going to be given guide lines as to how they are going to operate.

Their operations will be monitored Their financial statements will be monitored and will be checked so that the amounts of assistance can be decided and whether they need more or less or whether the assistance should ro up or down and what they are doinp:, There will not be assistance without control and the framework of control. They know that. They do not want it but they have no choice today because if they do not get it they will not survive. They are therefore all willinp. now to give their financial statements and open UP their books and the rest of it because if they do not they are going to go belly up.

They will not last another twelve Months anyway. So they do not want this help from the goverrunent. If they can see their way in a year or two or three that they can then operate a11:ain ~,ithout government assistance, they will certainly be delil!;hted to get out of that position. There are a whole lot of things that have to be decided at this ti~e. Mr. ~neaker. It is fantastically complicated. ~'hat kind of assistance; How to cfo it without rewarclini;? the inefficient?

They are not all manaRed with the same def!ree of efficiency, Phat are we p.oing to do with the coasts, with the plants on the Northeast Coast that are not economically viable, that should not by any sensible economic standard operate? What 7740

December 6, 1974. Tape 1955 RH - 2 do we do with them? If they are to continue to be operated because of the social consequences, because of where they are located and there is no alternative kinds of employment, if that is the decision then they should be financed on a different basis than the rest of the fishinr, industry. They should be dealt with on a social hasis and operated by government or assisted to be operated and subsidized on a different basis because some of these plants will never and can never be economic but it may not be possible to shut them. The industry is now, and there is no question, Mr.

Speaker, in the next few months goinp: to have many changes in rationalization. Now, thi,, Leader of the Ooposition mentioned the day he said it would be desirable to have one marketing, I forr.et the word he used, one marketing desk for all of the fresh frozen fish, I do not know if he meant of Newfoundland or of Eastern Canada. The Province of Newfoundland cannot do that as he well knows. That is a matter of federal jurisdiction, international trade and commerce and marketing boards. That may or may not have something to be said for.

I certainly heard it argued in the past, that this is a step that is lop,ical and reasonable. Well this is certainly the time for this to be looked at. I would not say right now whether it is the right move to make or not. I do not know nothing about it to know but if the industry is going to be assisted well obviously the time has come to really have a look at that concept and see is it practical and.can it be done. You certainly could not do it for Newfounaland alone, it would have to he for Eastern Canada. Those kinds of things can be looked at. I would not say that this is a step that must be tak~n.

So this kind of work is going on now, Mr. Speaker, night and day with the people involved, looking at all of these issues. They are not 7741

December 6, 1974. Tape 1956 RH - 1 all going to be solved in the month of December, hopefully some interim solution then and then the longer term by M.arch. Mr. Speaker, at the same time, once this review of the trawler fishery is concluded, as soon as they can _get over the hump of this immediate, then they are going to look at the inshore fishery. There was some mixed up reporting from here yesterday as to what I said about that.

These task force groups will be looking at the inshore fishery as soon as they finish this immediate nroblem of the trawler fishery which is caused by the conciliation board report and by the fact that the boats will all be cominp; in in December and may or may not sail at the end of December. As soon as they finish that they will be looking at the problems of the inshore fishery because the inshore plants are in just as dire straits as the plants that have trawlers, mostly for the same reason, that they cannot get sufficient foot through.

The inshore fishenuen have the same problem, arising costs and so on and so forth, no matter how much government assistance there is, as other fishermen. That problem has to dealt with too and cannot wait very long. It is our understanrlinp, Mr.

Speaker, that the Government of Canada and the Prime Ninister is concerned about the position of the primary nroducer. l1e are therefore expectinr a very favourable reception at Ottawa for any programmes of assistance that are developed in the inshore fishery and for the fishermen also. i•e are awaiting anxiously the income sunport programme for fishermen which the Government of Canada is working on and which is now beinp; revised from the one suggested last year. This is of great importance.

Now we are not going to belabour and berate the Minister of Fisheries of Canada or the r.overnment of Canada that they have not produced that now. We are very anxiously awaitinp; it but we know it is tremendously complicated and he wants to be satisfied that it is a good improvement on the present unemployment insurance scheme for fishermen and so on. But that is of first rank importance for the Government of Canada to come forward with the income support pro~ramme for fishermen, particularly for the inshore fishermen and badly needed. Now, Mr. Speaker, what llhout the union? One of the bip; problems

December 6, 1974. Tape 1956 RII - 2 in the ~ewfoundland fishery for many years has been ·the lack of a strong union that was acting for fishermen or fish plant workers. We all know how Mr. Coaker's union, what happened with that, how well it did and what its career was but from 1949 certainly until four or five years ago there was no strong union that existed in the fishing industry and that represented fishermen or fish plant workers or trawler fishermen.

That was a bad situation because too much power on one side of any situation is not good socially and leads to injustice and leads to inequities and the rest of it. There is today a union, the Newfoundland Fishermen Food and Allied Workers Union, that has become successfully organized in the last four or five years that now represents the fish plant -workers and trawler fishermen and fishermen in various areas and is now a strong countervailing force in the fishing fodustry in this Province. It was badly needed and now it is there and it had a struggle getting there.

It would not be much good as a union if it had not had a struggle getting to where it is today. This union, Mr. Speaker, and its leaders had to accept responsibility with the power that they now have . As to what happens in the next month or two in the fishing industry in Newfoundland, a great deal will depend upon Mr. Richard Cashin and the Fishermen Food and Allied Workers Union and how they react, what their reaction is.

The fishing industry and the i>rovince - one of the worst things that could happen at the present time with all of these situations underway and all these balls in the air and all these negotiations going on and the development of pro11;rammes of assistance and the rest of :ft, one of the worst things that could happen would be another interruption in the trawler fishery or either the companies or the men refusing to sail back after December.

So we have to ask the union when the companies can inform them what they can do after they know what the government programmes of assistance are going to be, to be reasonable and as long as there is reasonable improveMents and increases to go back to the fishery)and some of this may be on a part time basis until the whole thing can be worked out at the encl ot !1arc-h , a lot will depend on the union. The union has to be responsible, Mr. Speaker. 774CJ

December 6, 1974. Tape 1956 RH - 3 There are four main elements in this particular situation. One is the r.overnment of Canada, to have them reco_r.nize their -

December 6, 1974 Tape 1957 IB-1 responsibility and to,put up the needed money, the senRihlP ulan. Secondly, the province who is going to contribute what we can. We may find we have to supplement it or they may ask us to share such and such a percentage. Then, there is the union which represents the men involved and then there are the various fish processors who have, I think, Mr. Speaker, carried on very responsibly since July. They carried on. They did not attempt to decrease their prices. They carried on paying the prices and so on although they were absorbing very, very heavy losses certainly since the spring.

None of them have yet panicked and we have not had any dramatic announcements that any of them are going to get out of the industry. They h~ve not attempted to pressure either government in that manner. They are acting very responsibly. They have gotten Mr. Peter Gardner who has developed a brief for them on what their position is and how they see the programme operating and what the facts and figures are. They have been in constant touch with both governments, co-operated to the full. We will have to have the co-operation of the union before all of this is over. I feel sure that we will get it.

So, what is the position then, Mr. Speaker? The resolution that I presented to the House to enable the fishery situation generally to be debated is not a controversial one. The debate really is a little early. We will certainly have to have a major fisheries debate when the House opens again at the end of January or early February when it is kno~m exactly what kinds of assistance the two governments have come up with and how they are being administered because that will be the real time to debate this.

We did not want to be accused - we were unjustly accused by the opposition, the Leader of the Opposition, of not wanting to debate the fishery, the silly little play acting that goes on and political tactics. You know, when the House opened, the first day it opened, the opposition brings in a - .JIN HONOURABLE Mlla3ER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Right. That is a good point. The first day we opened they bring in an emergency resolution to debate the fishery, you know, for nothing 7751

December 6, 1974 Tape 19.::i7 IB-2 but publicity purposes knowing the Speaker would not accept it and having been told that the Harris report would be tabled the next day, the Leader of the Opposition brought in a resolution that there be an emergency debate on the fishery the day before. That was the silliest motion ever brought into this House for partisan, political reasons, the one brought in on opening day by the Leader of the Opposition when we assembled here again, after I told him the Harris report would be tabled Friday. We could not table it until Friday because of our agreement with the union.

He then moved that we have an emergency debate on the fisheries and nobody even had the Harris report. What kind of - not chicanery - but what kind of play acting is that? What kind of a serious approach to the problems of the fishery is that, attempting to use the crisis in the fishery for partisan, political advantage when the House opened after having been adjourned for two or three months, to try to make some supposed great point, that instead of debating redistribution, the House should be debating the fishery? AN HONOURABLE UE'IIBER: Debating it today with three of them over there. :1R.

CROSBIE : Yes, and today when we are debating it, in the Liberals ranks of the House there are three men present, three of them present, three only. So, the opportunity is now here, Mr. Speaker, to debate the fishery but the debate that will come at the end of January or in February will be far more valuable because we will then know what both governments exactly have done, what they are proposing, how it is being administered and we will be able to see whether or not members agree with what is then being done.

So, the resolution itself is quite a neutral one, that the House support the efforts of this government in conjunction with the ~overrunent of Canada to devise a scheme of financial assistance that will permit certain things to happen in the fishing industry of Newfoundland and that the members of the House urge the Government of Canada to make a unilateral declarat1on with respect to the Continental Shelf Water• next year, if there is not a satisfactory conclusion to the Law of the Sea Conference. There is nothing controversial in that. I am hoping and expecting that all members can support that.

At the same time we 7752

December 6, 1974 Tape 1957 IB-J are quite willing to listen to any suggestions that may be seriously 9ut fon..ard as to what should be done. Now. there are a whole lot .of other issues that can be discussed in the fishery, Mr. Speaker. We cannot discuss them all here today and there will be other opportunities. At the time of the ap9ointment of the Conciliation Bo·ard, the Premier stated tha t there would be a Commission of Enquiry appointed to look into the fishing industry generally. Now, the position has not changed. There will be a Commission of Enquiry appointed to look into all phases and aspects of the fishing industry 7753

Dec~mber 6, 1974, Taoe 1958, Page l -- apb in this province. It is not yet appointed for a verv simple reason, Mr. Speaker, that neither the federal government nor our government nor the industry nor the union at this time have the time to out the effort into making submissions to a roval commission, oreoaring briefs and putting a position forward. Thev simply have not got the time, they are all working day and night to try to deal with this immediate situation, which hopefully will be resolved in December and certainly on the long-term basis, by March. It is just not practical to appoint this commission vet.

When we get over this immediate situation and have it, hooefully, under control there will be then in the next month or two months the appointment of a commission to have a look at the whole fishinP, industry and the whole fishing situation here in Newfoundland. That will include the inshore fishery, the offshore fishery, the oelagic fishery and the ground fishery. The whole scene will be looked at. The situation with respect to the government trawler programme, Mr. Speaker, is simply this: that a study has been done by R.P.C.Resource Planning Associates and we have the results of that studv.

I have been dealing with them on it but in the meantime, the present situation is upon us and until there is a resolution in what we have been talkinP, about this afternoon, just how the goveniment's trawler orop,ramme will go forward and its size and extent, whether there will be an notion system or a oartial ootion system and the like will not be decided until after this is done, in view of the changing circumstances in the fishing industry today. Licencing orogramme for fishermen: There are a whole lot of other points that could be gone into that are not exactly p;ermane to this resolution.

The point of the resolution, Mr. Speaker, is thia: "That the House supoort the efforts of this government with the Government of Canada to now come uo with a scheme of financial assistance that ia necessary if the industry is to survive. Not jUBt the next three months or four months but the next three, four or five years and that the Government of Canada take steos to deal with offshore resources next year unilaterally if it is not concluded at Geneva or concluded in 1975."

llecemher f.. \<l74. T.1nt> J'l'>l'I. Pav,P 2 -- ar,h That is the sense of the resolution. If the opposition or anyone else in the House has any sug11;e!'ltions to make that would be of help in this situation we shall certa:1 .nlv note them. Or if they have anv sug~estions to make outaide the House or if thev want to write a letter at any time making su~gestions thev will certainlv be looked into. This v,overnment has made a major effort to assist the fishinR industry of this province where it can and with what .resources it has. It is orepared now, Mr. S,,eaker, to RO even further.

Our resources are not unli111ited. We are expectine: the Government of Canada to bear the ,;reatest oart of the brunt but we will do our share hanl thou!!;h it i• to ~•t the money for everythine: that is needed in this province. Th,r• are n,ing to be a lot of chan~es in the fishin,: industry in this pro.vinc.e and in Eastern Canada in the next twelve months. A tremande119 number uf changes in this industry and I think that most of tllem wi.11 be fw the best.

One 01.' the brighter features of the present sit~ion is that I think that now the Government of Canada is well apprised of the facts of the situation and ready to help. Certainly the Prenncial Gowmment is and will. There are several other thin~s that w• are g9ing to do in 1975 that I shall not touch on now, Mr. Speaker, except to assure the honourable gentleman from Labrador South that the position with resoect to the herring fishery in Labrador Seuth is ,:oing to be vastlv chan,;ed next year as well as along the northwest cout.

We an, dealin,: now with the Canadian Salt Fish Cor,oration and thev are bein~ asked to move in there and do the necessary with our help to see that with regard to the herring fishery the o•t.ential there is pronerly developed. That should have started this year but for some reason it e,ot slip~ed uo. Anyway, it certainly will start next sprin,: and -etings have been held with the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. An announcement will be made when we get all the details worked 011t With them.

I should also like to tell the Memb~r for Labrador South or Members for Labrador that we intend to put mora emphasis on the Labrador fishery next year, including assassin~ their inshore resources,

December 6, 1974, Tape 1958, Page 3 -- anb introducing new fish harvesting technolo~ and continuing 7750

December~. 1974. Tape 1959 RH - l the mobile support facility, the barge, "Labrador The First". That starte<l up there late this year and will be continuing to operate next year. All of those thin?,s were recommen<led by the Royal Commission on Labrador. We will continue to p,ive what assistance we can up there. So I think, Mr. Speaker, t~at T have really covered all that I need to cover at this point today. ~ - M. MARTIN: Refore the minister closes his part of the debate anc1 since he did brinr; up this particular

section of the report, there is a matter for clarification, Mr. Speaker, on pages forty and forty-one, fish handling facilities. The names of several communities in Labrador occur two or three times. I am wondering if it is a misprint, a typographical error or whether or not we are going to have many more facilities then is indicated in the honourable minister's programme? MR. CROSRIE: I will have to check that as to whether there are several projects or just a name repeated several times. It will have to be checked. I would think it would be several projects. MR.

MARTIN: Naminp. off several communities, there is also one named Labrador South. So I think probably somebody in the department does not really know what is happening down there. MR. CROSBU:: I would say that there is some tremendous enthusiast for Labrador South in the Department of Fisheries just making sure that it gets on the list for such facilities. So, ~r. Speaker, that is the present situation. Certainly within the next two weeks there will have to be some announcement as to what is going to be done in this interim period. I hope to see Mr. LeBlanc in Ottawa on Tuesday to discuss the situation.

His officials will have reported to him by then. He has to go to Treasury noard. He has to go to Cabinet. If he has something concrete presented to them that he can accept, we will have to do the same here in the Province of Newfoundland. We have to keep in touch with the fishing industry itself to see then if this is sufficient, to see it has been sufficient to carry on. They have to negotiate with the union to complete their collective agreement and to settle how much exactly 7751

December n, 1974. Tape 1959 RH - 2 their remuneration will be and the exact terms of that and how it is r,oing to be done and the exact amount. All of this has to go on in the nPxt few weeks so that hopefully the trawler fishery will resume after Christmas. while we can deal with the longer term and look at the inshore fishery also. We are not forp;etting the inshore plants. I saw Mr. Alec ~oores today and Mr. Fred Earle and people like that. They are not being forgotten and they saw ~r. Doucette on Tuesday and made their position very clear to him. They have a request into Ottawa for special assistance bec