Manitoba Hansard — 30 March 1982 (Sitting 24B, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-24b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. ADJOURNED DEBATES - SECOND READING BILL NO. 14 - THE INTERIM APPROPRIATION ACT, 1982 MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): The question before the House is the debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. Second Reading of Bill No. 14. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, at the dinner adjournment hour I was engaged in the process of reading from the prospec tus dated March 8, 1982, that is the supplementary prospectus and now into the main body of the pros pectus issued by the honourable members opposite from which they borrowed $200 million American; the date of this second prospectus being December 23, 1981. Without rehearsing, Mr.

Speaker, all that was said before we can only presume, except in those instances where divergence from fact has already been demonstrably proved, that this document speaks the truth about Manitoba; the truth about our eco nomic activities; the truth about governmental activi ties and the prospects that this government through its Minister of Finance see for the future of our province. Mr. Speaker, I now invite the House to look to Page 1 O of that prospectus.

I draw the attention of the House to the statement and the paragraph - the first paragraph on Page 1 O - which reads as follows and I quote: "The decline in public capital expenditures after 1977, which is primarily attributable to the decline in the utilities investment reflects the policy of Manitoba Hydro of slowing down the development of hydro-electric generating capacities until such time as additional markets could be assured." Mr.

Speaker, at the risk of repetition, I go back to page eight of the same document and I read to the members of the House what the Minister of Finance reported in his prospectus and this is at the bottom of page eight: "Electric power construction, which represented 15 percent of total construction expendi tures in 1976, declined thereafter reflecting the deci sion made in mid-1977 by the Board of Manitoba Hydro to defer the construction of further hydro electric generating capacity until such time as addi tional markets could be assured." Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is put forward as the truth by the Minister of Finance and his colleagues as they go on the good name, heretofore at least, of the Province of Manitoba to borrow $200 million.

It reflects what my colleagues and I have been saying prior to 1977 that Hydro construction in Manitoba in the 1970's, in particular up to 1977, had been forced fed by the Schreyer administration in order to prop up the econ omy in order that my honourable friends who were then in office could look a little better and try to pre tend that the economy of Manitoba was really func tioning and what they were doing was borrowing hundreds of millions of dollars for Hydro construction that didn't have to be done. It is not my intention tonight, Mr.

Speaker, to detail the whole sordid story of manipulation, political inter ference, crass incompetence, all of which were laid at the door of this First Minister and his colleagues in the Schreyer government. Not only were they told from 1970 onwards by former Premier Doug Campbell, who was then appointed by Mr. Schreyer as a member of the Hydro-Electric Board; not only were they told, Mr.

Speaker, by Kris Kristjanson, who was the Assist ant General Manager of Hydro and who resigned in the face of the incompetence of the then Chairman of Manitoba Hydro and the unwillingness of the then government to respond to the common sense entrea ties that he and Mr. Campbell and others were mak ing, that this lunacy that government was engaged in be stopped in the interests of the people of Manitoba; but no, Mr. Speaker, they went ahead. The first piece of lunacy, and if they want figures they're readily available in the Tritschler Report. Funny, we never hear about the Tritschler Report, isn't it, Mr.

Speaker, from the honourable members opposite and I'm not going to file that report and all of its volumes, but I say to the honourable members opposite, particularly the new members, take some time, go into the library some day and read in the Tritschler Report the chap ter, line and verse as being proven, Mr. Speaker, the proven record of socialist perfidy that was conducted and inflicted upon the people of Manitoba by that group of incompetents, some of whom still sit here, in the years when they had responsibility. 990 Jenpeg, Mr. Speaker, don't we all remember Jen peg with the marvelous Russian generators.

It made their little left-wing hearts feel good to order the gen erators from USSR so they travel to that fountain head of liberty to see how things were going on as these marvelous generators were being tooled up over there so that they wouldn't fit on the mounts when they came over here. I know, I've seen them, I've been through them. In excess of $300 million, Mr. Speaker, wasted on a Hydro plant that need never have been built. But, Mr.

Speaker, that whole tortuous tale of perfidy, that whole tortuous tale of incompe tence on behalf of the last socialist administration is well engraved on the minds of the people of Manitoba, and if my honourable friends think that we'll ever let them forget it they've got another think coming. · So, Mr. Speaker, we see in here that the decline of Manitoba Hydro finally in mid-1977, Manitoba Hydro decided to cut off Hydro construction. Manitoba Hydro, Mr.

Speaker, in the words of the prospectus cut off Hydro construction in mid 1977, not after the Conservatives came into office but before the Con servatives came into office and I say, tonight, to my friend the First Minister I don't want to hear him ever again utter that lie that it was the Conservatives, Mr. Speaker, who cut off Hydro construction. Because his own prospectus puts the truth in perspective finally. Well, Mr. Speaker, I heard the Attorney-General say something about a retirement speech. Maybe we should hear something from the Attorney-General about his travel plans in the United States before

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 we're through this evening. Mr. Speaker, I digress for a moment from the pros pectus wherein some semblance of the truth is told about Manitoba Hydro. and I move to the first address given by the Member for Selkirk in his capacity as First Minister in this House on Tuesday, March 9, 1982, which is recorded in Hansard of that date from Pages 237 on to 243. Mr. Speaker, it would be redund ant to file this as a piece of evidence or as a document. I repeat the Hansard citation, however, for the record. I refer the House, Mr.

Speaker, to Page 240 of Hansard of that date and these comments by the First Minister. Now, keep in mind, Mr. Speaker, what I just read to you from the prospectus, talking about why capital construction in the public sector declined in Mani toba because Manitoba Hydro in mid-1977 decided to cut out further unneeded hydro construction in Mani toba until it could identify further markets and that's what this government was doing with Alcan, the Western Inter-Tie and so on. Alright. Now, Mr.

Speaker, here's the First Minister of this province on Tuesday, the 9th of March, just by coincidence the day after this prospectus was issued. What is he say ing the day after the prospectus is issued about capi tal development in Manitoba? Well, Mr. Speaker, here's what he says at the bottom of page 240: "It is a tragedy, that Manitoba with a well-developed mixed economy fell behind during the past four years. The proportion of public investment in Canada fell behind in the last two years." The proportion of public investment in Canada.

The planning and the com mitment to resume that investment, particularly in the resource sector exists, Mr. Speaker, within this government. Mr. Speaker, the day before, his own Minister of Finance explained why the public capital investment in Manitoba fell behind - because we weren't force feeding Hydro the way they negligently were, and we weren't causing unneeded Hydro instal lations to be put into place. We were busy trying to get the markets for the Hydro potential that exists pres ently and that can be put into place so that there would be a market for the province. Now, by what right, Mr.

Speaker, does the First Minister of this pro vince, in this House, stand up and make that kind of a statement 24 hours after his Minister of Finance told the truth in the prospectus? Mr. Speaker, some years ago I had occasion, and I do it now, in the best of grace, to my friend the Member for Selkirk, to give him personal advice. I give it to him again tonight. He suffers from the disability of going for the quick trick all the time. Mr. Speaker, as I've just demonstrated, and will demonstrate again tonight, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable First Minister must give more attention to the facts. Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the hubbub is to continue MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would members kindly keep the noise level down just a little so that we can all hear what the honourable member has to say? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. L VON: I say, Mr.

Speaker, in the best of goodwill to my friend from Selkirk, the First Minister, I say to him honestly and sincerely, avoid this syndrome of the quick trick, avoid this syndrome of coming up with answers that do not accord with the facts and with the 991 truth, because he is the First Minister of this province and we are entitled to expect the truth from his statements. Mr. Speaker, in fairness I read the next paragraph in the prospectus and I read it before in the House, P age 10, and referred to it.

Quote: "The newly-elected Pro vincial Government is reviewing negotiations relating to five major construction projects, including a West ern Power Grid involving transmission of hydro electric energy to the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta; a 1,300-megawatt hydro-electric generating station on the Nelson River expected to cost approx imately 2 billion; a SOO-million primary aluminum pro cessing plant which would require additional electri cal generating capacity; a $640-million potash mine and refinery and expansion/conversion of the Mani toba Forestry Resources Limited plant at The Pas (See the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board - Construc tion Program and Economic Structure - Minerals - Manufacturing)." Mr.

Speaker, nothing in there, however, Sir, has been mentioned, and I don't intend to worry at this point, because it's been mentioned before, nothing in there at all about allowing the potash agreement to expire, nothing in there about the Alcan agreement being put on the shelf; not a word, or about site selec tion. Not a word, Mr. Speaker, about a hydro rate freeze or any of the other pieces of information that we've been able to claw out of them in the last several days; not a word.

They expect that this exculpates them from telling the truth from what we've drawn from the Minister of Mines and Energy in the last few days. Mr. Speaker, I'm not going to pass legal or any other judgment upon the necessity to disclose. I merely say to my honourable friends opposite that those disclosures if known to them should have been contained in this report and they weren't. The disclo sures, Mr. Speaker, were known to them. The next paragraph, page 1 O; remember this is in an economy that we'll find out, Mr.

Speaker, that was just going to hell in a hand basket according to the NOP in their election brochures and we're coming to that one; that's got some dandies in it. We're coming to that. Here's what they said in the prospectus where they have to tell the truth or at least they're supposed to tell the truth. Labour force: "Manitoba has maintained high rates of employment relative to most other prov inces in Canada." Imagine that, Mr. Speaker, Mani toba has maintained high rates of employment. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honourable Member for lnkster have a point of order? MR. DON SCOTT (lnkster): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to know whether the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion would entertain a question? MR. L VON: At the end of my remarks I'll be happy to entertain any question. The second sentence in that paragraph, Mr. Speaker, "This has been accomplished in the face of a steadily increasing labour force which averaged 486,000 per sons in 1980. The labour force increased at a com pound annual rate of 2.1 percent from 1976 through 1980 while the comparable increase in employment was 1.9 percent. The average unemployment rate in

I Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 1980 was 5.5 percent for Manitoba compared with 7.5 percent for all of Canada." Now, Mr. Speaker, how does that accord with the statements of doom and gloom about employment in Manitoba that we used to hear day after day, week after week and in the published tirades and left wing propaganda that emanated from across the way dur ing the last four years. Now, on the 8th of March, Mr. Speaker, that's what they're telling the investors in the United States about the state of employment in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, at the bottom of Page 11 -(Inter jection)- well, having the facility to read is probably an aptitude that is not entirely known to all of my honourable friends opposite. Mr. Speaker, at the bot tom of Page 11 -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friends want to play hard ball they better get their gloves on. In 1979 the Minister of Finance announced - listen to this, Mr.

Speaker, - in May, 1979 the Minister of Finance of the province announced fixed power rates for a period of five years ending on March 31, 1984 for all Manitoba consumers other than bulk purchasers and those on separate contracts. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I pause to ask the ques tion: Where in this prospectus does it say that pro gram that benefited low-income people to the advan tage of practically all levels in Manitoba, where does it say in there that policy is being reviewed and that this government is seriously considering abandoning that policy which froze hydro rates for the people of Mani toba for a five-year-period? Where does it say that at all? Does it say it in here? And yet the other day, Mr.

Speaker, we had to extract from the Minister of Mines and Energy some drivel about the technicians at Manitoba Hydro looking at the fixed power rates and how the integrity of Manitoba Hydro was at stake and at how a recommendation was going to be made by the technicians to that eminent chairman that they have just appointed over at Manitoba Hydro, and that he in turn would advise the Committee on Public Utilities when it got before the House. Well, Mr. Speaker, why didn't they tell the investors that they were thinking of abandoning the hydro rate freeze. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat tonight what my col league the Member for Emerson said the other day and I'm quoting from the Carillon News. I realize that's a part of Manitoba that is largely alien to many of my honourable friends opposite, it's quite civilized down there. From the Carillon News, Mr. Speaker, and here was the First Minister of the Province, the Member for Selkirk, being interviewed by the Carillon News and I quote, Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to lay it on the table of the House because they're only the facts as I find them in publications.

"Pawley promises his govern ment will honour the hydro rate freeze for the remain ing two years of the agreement." Imagine that, Mr. Speaker, and he goes on in fairness, "There are" - and this is a direct quote attributed to the First Minis ter - "There are a lot of serious questions now being raised as to the wisdom of what the Conservatives did in that respect because we are facing deficits in respect to Manitoba Hydro but there is a commitment that was made to Manitobans and we will try to honour that commitment period." Well, Mr.

Speaker, not only the First Minister try to honour that commit ment, we'll make very sure on this side of the House that he does honour that commitment. Now, Mr. Speaker, the plot thickens. Later on, Mr. Speaker, I am going to be referring to some com ments made by the First Minister in some of the elec tion propaganda by the members opposite or by their PR people about how natural resource revenues in this province have really not been good, you know, we've been failing to get the proper return for the people of Manitoba.

Then on page 13 of the prospec tus, I invite honourable members opposite to take a look at the tables there under natural resource revenue, and members opposite will see natural resource revenues for the five years ran from 23.1 million up to 67.8 million estimated in 1982. Does that sound like a drop in revenue, Mr. Speaker? Later on I'll be referring honourable members to another

section of the NOP propaganda, wherein they talked about the Conservative Government from 1977-81 starving education in Manitoba and I notice the Minister of Education picks up her ears at that because I know she never said anything like that, she's far too intelligent to have said anything like that. Mr. Speaker, the table in the prospectus shows that education expenditures in the Province of Manitoba for the year ended March 31st, 1978 are $355 million and that they went up to $501.8 million, and then in the same period, Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Tax Credit Plans went from $127 million of direct payments to taxpayers in Manitoba to $161. 7 million at a time when the NOP were trying to say that the taxpayers in Mani toba were being starved by the policies of the Conser vative Government with respect to education. And, Mr. Speaker, we'll all come later on when we come to read this magnificent document A Clear Choice for Manitobans about how Health and Community Services were starved under those terrible Conserva tive years. 992 Well, here are the facts, Mr.

Speaker, March 31, 1978 the province was spending $655.8 million on Health and Community Services, 1982 Budget Esti mate, and I know it will be higher than this, $981. 7 million. Here's an example of the starving that was going on according to my honourable friends when they weren't faced with the facts, when they could try to get away with the political rhetoric, the quick tricks and all of the other nonsense they have used to slide into office temporarily. Mr.

Speaker, on the bottom of page 15 of the pros pectus and I quote: "Pursuant to the Energy Rate Stabilization Act the province has relieved Manitoba Hydro of the foreign exchange risk associated with outstanding foreign currency debt by assuming all currency gains and losses. Expenditure under this program is estimated at $35.8 million for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1982 - see public debt - guaranteed debt of the province." Mr.

Speaker, I see nothing in the rest of the prospec tus saying that is a policy that is under review by the government opposite and is going to be terminated because I can only think, aside from sheer perversity which I wouldn't attribute even to my honourable friends opposite, why anybody would attempt, at this stage, with inflation at the rate that it presently is, particularly harsh as it is upon those on fixed income, senior citizens, those in low-income groups, and so on, why would a government that is truly interested in

30 March, 1982 the poor. in those who need help, why would it aban don of its own volition the one white hope that remains in terms of cost control in the average house hold budget in Manitoba, namely a hydro rate freeze? Why would they abandon that? Perhaps - and, Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to attrib ute motives and I won't - but perhaps, guided by the former Minister of Finance, who is now the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro, who is the one who made the improvident borrowings in different parts of the world which Manitoba Hydro had to pay off when the Cana dian dollar weakened against the Swiss franc, against the German Deutsche mark, against the Japanese yen and on and on it goes. Perhaps that gentleman wants that monument to his incompetence removed and the hydro rate freeze is a monument to that incompetence. It was put into place, Mr.

Speaker, to spare the ratepayers, the Hydro ratepayers of Mani toba, the negative effects, the deleterious effects of that improvident borrowing that was done by that Minister of Finance in particular, and under his gui dance, during the years of the Schreyer administra tion. That's the only perverse reason one can think of for any government that is truly concerned about the poor in Manitoba, wanting to abandon the hydro rate freeze.

I say to the Member for Rupertsland, I say to the Member for Dauphin, I say to the Member for Gimli, you go and try to explain to your constituents why your government is abandoning the hydro rate freeze. Go and try to explain that to them because you didn't campaign on it, in this document, you sure didn't campaign on it there, not at all. Your Premier didn't say anything about that during the election campaign; mum as a turtle about it. In fact, when asked about it after the election, he said, no, they would adhere to the promise.

So let these honourable gentlemen go and explain if they can, when some of these technocrats and bureaucrats and technicians and socialist paladins and whatever, come along and try to tell you that it's in the interests of the people of Manitoba to abandon the hydro rate freeze. You, in caucus, you just say to some of the hotshots that will be giving you this cup of cold soup, cold gruel, "How am I going to explain that to my constituents? How am I going to explain that to the people in Ste.

Rose, to the people in Rupertsland, to the people in Thompson or in any part of Manitoba?" There is no logical explana tion for it, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in the interests of conserving time, I'm not going to make reference to all of the matters that could be mentioned tonight or that perhaps should be mentioned, because tabling of the document is suffi cient for those with the intelligence to read it and to understand what is said in it, to explain and to gain therefrom some explanation of what has been hap pening economically; what has been happening in terms of public sector capital investment in this pro vince; why Manitoba Hydro, under the previous Schreyer administration, cut off development on the Nelson River; why the public investment in Manitoba has decreased as a result of that; why, because of the incompetence of that Schreyer administration, as documented in the Tritschler Report, we should not be getting our necks into the same noose again.

That's all part and parcel of the quotations that are contained, Mr. Speaker, in this prospectus tonight. 993 Let me move for a couple of moments to that address that was made, to which I made reference earlier, by the First Minister, his first major address on the 9th of March, 1982, contained in Hansard of that date. Mr. Speaker, remember if you will, Sir, some of the quotes that I've just read you, where we heard an unvarnished statement of what was happening eco nomically in Manitoba in the prospectus. Now listen to these words.

Here's the First Minister of the Pro vince, on page 238: "I said, and perhaps I can even quote myself," -t hat's always a dangerous thing for a politician to do, but he did it - "we are going to have difficulty because there has been such a great deal of damage that has been done in the last three and a half years to the economy of this province." Mr. Speaker, was the damage manifested in this prospectus? Mr.

Speaker, listen to this, a few sentences on down: "The recession and the disruption caused by the narrow minded, restrictive, right-wing administration in the United States, indeed, is making matters much worse, not only in Canada, but particularly as well in Manitoba." Mr. Speaker, may I digress just for a moment and point out that ritualistic piece of nonsense that is part of the philosophy of my honourable friends opposite, that they've got to be anti-American at any cost.

You know, that's part of the price, I suppose, that you pay, part of the price you pay for belonging to that rather odd collection of people who hold to their philosophy, that even if you can't find any other devil in the sky, blame the United States, that's a good thing to do. Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House, I have found, and my colleagues have found over the years and my colleagues in Ottawa have found over the years, heaven knows, we don't agree with everything the United States does economically, militarily, in terms of foreign relations or whatever. But we do acknowl edge, Mr.

Speaker, that they are our closest and our best friends on the whole face of the earth. Mr. Speaker, we don't go around as my honourable friend, the First Minister apparently feels he must, ritualistically kicking them in sort of a left-wing high that they get on every once in a while just for the sake of kicking them. And then, Mr. Speaker, trot down to New York with their tin cup rattling, and say, "We don't like your right-wing, narrow, doctrinaire poli cies but we sure as the devil want your $200 million." Now, Mr.

Speaker, I just ask the First Minister to consider in the context of his remarks, not in any way to gag himself at all. Good heavens, you can't gag a socialist. But, Mr. Speaker, just to remember that, if you're going to go into that market, you don't have to make ritualistic kicks at the United States just for the sake of making them in pursuance of some personal left- wing whim. Foreign relations in this country, Mr. Speaker, are properly left to the Federal Government.

I would suggest to my honourable friends during the brief period of time that they will be across the way, that they leave foreign relations to the Federal Government, they keep, Mr. Speaker, their rather funny resolutions on foreign affairs, Nicaragua and El Salvador, and dear old Chile and so on, keep all of the left-wing claptrap to themselves, because it's really of no interest to anybody in Manitoba. So, Mr. Speaker, on Page 238, after my honourable friend had unburdened himself of his ritualistic kick at

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 the United States before he rattled his tin cup down there to raise the money, Mr. Speaker, he goes on to talk about his mandate to provide good government. But every member on this side of the House realizes that, fundamental to the principle of good govern ment, is honesty with the public. "I do not pretend to know," says the First Minister, "the exact details for implementation of every NOP commitment." Mr.

Speaker, I wish he knew the details for all of the things they hadn't said, like taking off the hydro rate freeze and putting into limbo the negotiations on Alcan and potash, and so on. I wish he'd had the forthrightness to tell us about that. But to carry on quoting the First Minister. "However, this Throne Speech said loudly and clearly that our government intends to keep faith with Manitobans. The standard we set is, indeed, a promise made is a promise kept." Well, Mr. Speaker, the First Minister made a promise in the Carillon News that he wouldn't abandon the hydro rate freeze in Manitoba.

A promise made is a promise kept and we expect that he will keep it and if he doesn't keep it, we're going to make sure that he and his government do keep it, Mr. Speaker, because we're going to hold him to his own words. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker, he carries on, the First Minister carries on in this great speech and says, "I say to them that our election program was a carefully prepared series of measures to start the work of eco nomic reconstruction in our province and to maintain the quality of life and the public services that Manito bans expect." Beautiful ideals, beautiful aims and, Mr.

Speaker, I would only have to say to the First Minister tonight that if his election program was "a carefully prepared series of measures to start the work of eco nomic reconstruction in our province," why has his government virtually put into limbo, the Alcan devel opment? Why has it got us back to square one on the potash development? Why is it unable to proceed with the Western Power Inter-Tie? If that's the way of start ing this brave new socialist world in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, we're in deep trouble in this province, not withstanding the words of the First Minister. Mr. Speaker, I'll try to be brief.

I'm merely quoting from the words, however, of the First Minister. I would expect that his colleagues would like to hear his words again because they breathe the truth about Manitoba. I don't think anyone across the way would not want to hear the words of the First Minister. Page 239 of the same speech, Mr. Speaker, listen to this, "The unprecedented loss of population is being con firmed by the 1981 census." "Unprecedented loss of population," Mr. Speaker?

Well, before the House adjourned I quoted the figures that were given in his own prospectus showing the population being, in Manitoba, at 1,031,000 and a few hundred and that the population in 1977 was roughly 1,030,000, some where around there. I heard tonight that Slats Canada coming out of the census of last year has come up with a revised figure which is 1,026,000 and then they'll probably revise that figure again, Mr. Speaker, and all other figures because there is an error factor in all of those figures. But, Mr.

Speaker, the point is this very simply, where did the First Minister get the information that led him to say, in this House on the 9th of March, 1982, one day after his own government had issued this prospectus on the 8 March, 1982, wherein it said that the population of Manitoba was virtually the same in 1982 as it was in 1977 and then he says to this House and to his believing followers behind him, the "unprecedented loss of population is being confirmed by the 1981 census." Mr.

Speaker, that statement simply isn't true and I say to my honourable friend tonight that he's not going to get away with those quick tricks anymore because we're putting a stop to it. We're not going to let him badger around with misrepresenting facts of Manitoba. He's not going to be allowed to do it. He has a job to fulfil! that is bigger than him and we're going to make sure that he fills it with some dignity, not in the way he's been doing it heretofore. 994 Mr. Speaker, here's another quote from the First Minister on the 9th of March. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, I'm quoting the First Minister, "we have changed the provincial policy on interest rates. No longer does this government echo the thoughts of Messrs. Trudeau and MacEachen on fiscal and mone tary policy. We will leave those arguments to the Member for Turtle Mountain." Now, Mr. Speaker, it's an old story, but the truism and the axiomatic truth of what I'm about to say is so evident that I shouldn't have to explain it to anyone. Mr.

Speaker, on the one hand here, the First Minister and his colleagues across the way, not the ones who were noisy in debate, the more thoughtful ones who can talk, we hear them from time to time saying, this government was at war with the Trudeau government, the former Conservative government. In fact, wasn't it, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance, that paragon of intelligence, who said, listen to this, from the Minister of Finance on the same day, page 244, quoting Mr. Schroeder, "there is little doubt," said Mr.

Schroeder, "that the actions of some provincial governments, including the former government in this province, played a part where probably a significant factor in setting the stage for cuts that we face, in calling inces santly for large-scale reductions in the federal deficit and reduced federal intrusions so-called in various provincial program fields, the members opposite helped provide a rationale for the cut-back legislation which appears soon to be introduced in parliament." Now, there, Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister of Finance later on that night -t he First Minister earlier on in the day, "No longer will his government," says he, "echo the thoughts of Messrs. Trudeau and MacEachen on fiscal monetary policy. " Mr. Speaker, you can't have it both ways. Either we were at their throats, according to the Minister of Finance, or we were at their feet, the way the First Minister is at the present time. Now, which way is he going to have it? Because this government, when we were in office, we certainly never echoed the fiscal policies of the Trudeau government.

Not at all and again my honourable friend can't have it both ways. He can't be heard, on the one hand, to complain about acute protracted restraint, which was his theme song for a while, prac tised by this government and then, on the other hand, say that we supported the Trudeau fiscal policies which were the most profligate spending policies next only to those of the Schreyer government in Manitoba. So, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend again, the First Minister, is going to have to make up his mind

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 which toad he's going to travel down or whether he's just going to squat in the middle of the road which seems to be rather an appropriate posture for him. I think it is sufficient, Mr. Speaker, to indicate - because I will come to this a little bit later as well. The First Minister, speaking in Brandon said that they had changed the interest rate policy in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, he didn't change any interest rate policy in Manitoba at all.

This government, when we were in office, was not supportive of the Trudeau government and I will deal a little bit later with his cockeyed idea of reducing the value of the Canadian dollar and the effect that would have, the deleterious effect. My honourable friend should really stick to Municipal Affairs. When he gets into Finance, he's going to get this province into trouble and I look forward to deal ing in a few minutes with what his great plan for reducing the value of the Canadian dollar would do to the indebtedness of this province. Mr.

Speaker, in the interests of time, I will spare you any further quotes that can be destroyed by truth from the speech of the First Minister. Mr. Speaker, I particu larly liked the comment of the First Minister on page 241 when he said, "We on this side do not pretend to be magicians. We claim, unlike some in the previous administration, no particular ability to" - if he'd stopped there, he would have been right "no par ticular ability to produce a boom in Manitoba." Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friends don't have to claim to be magicians, if they would just stick to the facts and try not pulling ersatz rabbits out of nonexistent hats and giving us information about the breakdown in negotiations of potash, on Alcan, on the slowdown in negotiations on the Western Power Grid, we would be quite happy indeed. I like this quote as well, Mr. Speaker, in the light of the declamations being made the other day by the Minister of Agriculture and by some of the other hor rid interjections that we have heard from some members opposite.

Here is what the First Minister said on page 241: "The government of any province is acting like a dinosaur if it thinks its laws and its pro grams do not need ongoing review and reform." I merely pause to ask, Mr. Speaker, is a government that says that its going to look into a sixty-year old transportation rate acting like a dinosaur if it doesn't do so, and is the Blakeney government not the one that's acting like a dinosaur when it says no, you can't even look, you can't even look at that transportation policy?

I ask my honourable friend the First Minister to reflect upon some of the statements he has been mak ing in this House to see the wisdom and the unwisdom of some of the things that he has been saying. Mr. Speaker, he goes on, on page 242, he said and I quote at the bottom of 241: "I refer to the weak posi tion by the previous administration with respect to its position in respect to interest rates; indeed its support of Trudeau's federal monetary policy." Again, Mr.

Speaker, he can repeat that nonsense if he wishes, but I ask him merely to refrain from speaking untruths, because we did not on this side of the House ever ape or support the fiscal and monetary policies of the Trudeau government. We asked for consultation as did all -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, the Honourable Member for Selkirk, is becom- 995 ing agitated. Isn't that a shame? Mr.

Speaker, I quote again from page 242: "And by our desire" - here are the words of the First Minister - "By our desire to keep faith with Manitobans, we intend to provide good government and to so encour age excellence and initiative within the Civil Service, so that indeed this will come to be recognized throughout Canada as indeed the best government within Canada." Well, Mr.

Speaker, I said before that all politicians, this one included, have to be forgiven occasional flourishes of political reverie, but for my honourable friend opposite in the light of some, not all, but some of the harsh crude political appoint ments that they have made to senior levels of the Civil Service in Manitoba, some of their traveling palatines, for him to talk about excellence and initiative within the Civil Service is a laugh indeed. We had to restore the shambles of the Civil Service after he and his colleagues in the Schreyer Government left it in a shambles, and we'll make sure - Mr.

Speaker, we intend to make sure that the Civil Service's integrity is protected in the years in which this government remains in office. Well, Mr. Speaker, I could go on and talk about his references to openness in government and so on, but rather I would now like to refer honourable members to the address that was made by the First Minister to the annual meeting of the Brandon Chamber of Commerce; that was nine days after the prospectus was issued and there are few gems in here that per haps some of the members - Mr.

Speaker, it's becom ing apparent why certain members of the government side are on the back bench and will remain there for a long time. Mr. Speaker, for a long time during this term only. Mr. Speaker, here are the words of the First Minister speaking in Brandon a few days after this prospectus was issued. First and foremost, he said: "The new government feels a profound and fundamental obli gation to fulfill its election commitments in an age of cynicism about government and the political process, we think it is especially important to keep faith with Manitobans." Mr.

Speaker, he feels it's especially important to keep faith with Manitobans; maybe he would care to tell us before this Session is over how he's keeping faith with the Manitobans who are count ing on the Alcan development, on the potash devel opment, on the Western Inter-Tie; how he's keeping faith with the people of Manitoba on the hydro rate freeze; how he's keeping faith with the people of Mani toba on the Beef Income Program that he promised and we haven't seen yet; how he's keeping faith with the people of Manitoba on Garrison; how he's keeping faith with the people of Manitoba indeed on any of the hodgepodge of promises that are contained in this nefarious document that is already tabled in the House.

Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid that the people of Manitoba are going to become more aesthetic after watching the performance of this government for a few more months. Now what did he say? He goes on in the Brandon speech and he says: "The revenue situation we faced upon election to office is grim as I'm sure you'll know. The outgoing government delivered a forecast that the provincial deficit would be $250 million," and I

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 think there's a typographical error here; I read it that way, "- high er than the record level indicated in their final Budget Yet Manitoba" - this is where he made this famous statement that was immediately contra dicted within 48 hours by his own Minister of Finance - "Yet Manitoba is still going to suffer at least $100 million in federal cutbacks. Provincially generated revenue has been increasing slowly because of the poor economic performance since 1977." And then a few more quotes, "Recent deficits have already resulted .. . ", recent deficits, Mr.

Speaker, said he, "in a 30 percent plus growth rate growth in interest payments on public debt in the province," and so on and so on. Well, Mr.

Speaker, his solution for all of this comes at the end of his speech and these are the points that I really wish to leave and I ask the members of the House, particularly his backbenchers, and I ask the people of Manitoba to judge the First Minister's com ments on this, on what he said in Brandon on the 8th of March against the record that we are hearing, that we are extracting from the Minister of Mines and Energy with respect to the major projects and other revelations that have been made in this House. Here's what he said, Mr.

Speaker, in talking about the great partnership between the NDP and business in Mani toba. This is Page 8 of that speech: "As I said to the Legislature last week, when it comes to developing the economy of Manitoba the only realistic alternative is the one that we have welcomed to regard the busi ness community as a partner. That sense of partner ship is an attitude which I hope all Ministers are reflecting. That attitude lies behind our stress on joint ventures, on Main Street Manitoba, and on Manitoba businesses in general." Here he goes to repeat again, Mr.

Speaker, he says, "We have changed the provincial policy on interest rates." The Manitoba government does not echo the thoughts of Messrs. Trudeau and MacEachen on fis cal and economic policy. Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Government never did, but I know that kind of revelation is unsettling to the Honourable Member for Selkirk. Listen to this one, Mr. Speaker, "The price of some possible exchange rate losses would be well worth paying for the relief that lower interest rates would provide to all Manito bans and particularly our business community." Let me pause there, Mr. Speaker, to make this observation.

I don't know any sound-minded person in Canada, be he a member of whatever political party in this country even including aberrant parties like my honourable friends opposite belong. I don't know of any person in Canada who doesn't want to see lower interest rates but, Mr. Speaker, I've not heard any economist of note who says anything but this, namely that interest rates are unfortunately a reflection of the inflation rate that we have in this country. Interest rates are something that are an abhorrent throw-off from the inflationary spectre that has also been afflict ing our people.

We don't like them on this side of the House any more than honourable members do opposite. And, Mr.

Speaker, in the communique that I tabled this afternoon from the Victoria Conference, I called to the attention of the First Minister what the 10 pre miers of Canada including his mentor from Saskatch- 996 ewan said as recently as August 14 of 1981, and I quote from Page 7 of the document that is tabled, quote: "The Premiers emphasize that these policy directives are wholly consistent with the economic objectives agreed to by all 11 First Ministers at their two productive conferences on the economy in Feb ruary and November, 1978.

The Premiers reaffirmed the comprehensive positions that they had adopted at those conferences and stressed their value as a base for co-operative economic policy development. In particular, the Premiers underscored the importance of reaffirming the vital role that the private sector must play in the recovery process." Mr. Speaker, that was the premiers of the 10 provin ces speaking in unison as recently as August of last year at the Premiers' Conference saying what we agreed upon as financial roles and monetary roles for the country back in 1978 is still a good basis upon which to work. In this document, Mr.

Speaker, and I won't quote in detail; it's there for anyone to see, the Premiers talked about the strengthening of the Cana dian dollar being needed as one of the pieces of weaponry to reduce interest rates in Canada, not the lowering of the Canadian dollar. So Mr.

Speaker, I say to my honourable friend that he has got himself into a bit of a dilemma, because I can tell him tonight that on the basis of a computation that has been made for me that if the 75-cent Cana dian dollar which the First Minister of this province apparently supports in aid of this elusive reduction of interest rates which we all want, but if the country were to get a 75-cent dollar, it would increase the face value of the debt obligations of the people of Mani toba immediately, in the flick of a hand, the bat of an eyelash, by $200 million. Mr.

Speaker, I'm sorry to intrude upon the somno lence of the First Minister, but I merely say to him that a government that can only scrape up $23 million for interest rate relief for homeowners, for farmers and businesses over a two-year period should hardly be in the position of saying to the same people of Manitoba, "But we're prepared to increase the face value of your debt by $200 million because we think - we don't know, we think - that might reduce interest rates in Canada." Mr. Speaker, that isn't good thinking.

I know my honourable friend across the way may come back and say, well the Premier of Alberta, the Premier of New Brunswick and so on agree. I don't care; I don't think that's a good policy for Canada to approach it that way. I want the interest rates reduced, but I want them reduced in a sane and prudent way, not by increasing the debt of the people of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, by $200 million without taking into account the extra interest payments on that debt. Mr.

Speaker, the dilemma in which the First Minister finds himself is not one of our creation; the dilemma of the First Minister is of his own -(I nterjection)- If the First Minister can restrain himself from his agitated condition long enough -( Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. If members wish to conduct private conversations across the floor of the House, perhaps they would be more advised to do so outside the House, then we could all hear the honourable member

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has created a dilemma for himself not for the people of Manitoba unless he is able to convince 10 other governments to follow through on his policies. But I suggest to him that is not the way to reduce interest rates in Canada, not at all, because increasing the debt of Manitoba by $200 million is very little help to the same people who will have to pay that off when you're only offering $23 million over a two-year period. Mr. Speaker, the First Minister wants to speak about the Premier of Alberta.

I find that interesting; I find that very interesting indeed. Let me relate a little story that I heard the other day that I think members in the backbench will find very interesting. In the course of the last four years when we were in office in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, we had occasion from time to time to borrow at exceptionally good rates from the Heritage Fund of the Province of Alberta sums of money on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

I won't say that on every occasion, but on many occasion when those loans were made you could hear the raucous, rude catcalls coming from across the way talking about how we were, figuratively or literally, sitting in the lap of the Premier of Alberta and how he was calling the shots, etc., etc. Now, Mr. Speaker, I find it passing strange to hear from this same First Minister who was so loud in his ignorance in those days talking about things he knew naught about, the same First Minister now saying, have I spoken to Peter Lougheed about the policy of a 75-cent Canadian dollar? The answer is, Mr.

Speaker, I used to speak to him pretty firmly about it, and that's why some of the Premiers didn't get off on the same craziness that he got them off on at the last First Ministers' Conference. That's one reason. The second thing, Mr. Speaker, that he should keep in mind just to show what a difference a few months makes. What's the old song? "What a Difference a Day Makes." What a difference a few months makes.

My honourable friends who used to catcall and complain about loans from the Alberta Heritage Fund which were given to this province and to other provinces at a triple A rate; some of the best interest rates that this province has in its portfolio obtained from the Herit age Fund. Mr. Speaker, these were regarded always as inimical to the future of the province and somehow or other Manitoba when they took those loans under a Conservative government was being vassalaged. Shortly after this group got into office, one of the first places they went with their tin cup was to where? Can you imagine, where was it, Mr.

Speaker? It was to the Alberta Heritage Fund, can you imagine that? They rattled their tin cup there, just as they rattled it down in New York, and they got $75 million, I believe the figure was, from the Province of Alberta. I had occasion to remind the Minister of Finance in the House one night about the fact that they were drinking from the very well of Finance that they claimed was such a poisoned well when we were in office. Then the other day, Mr.

Speaker, just to add the final flourish, to add the strawberry on top of the socialist sundae so to speak I can't imagine any thing as delightfully edible as a sundae being called socialist, but in any case it's a mixed analogy. Mr. 997 Speaker, can you imagine the other day when I heard on CBC the dulcet tones of the Minister of Finance after it had been announced in Alberta that the policy of the Government of Alberta was no longer to loan monies from the Heritage Fund to provinces in Can ada.

The dulcet tones of the present socialist Minister of Finance came over saying, "I regard this as unfor tunate," said he, "for the people of Manitoba, but on the other hand I can understand," said he, "why the Alberta Government is doing it." I merely say, Mr. Speaker, what a difference a few weeks and a few months make in the perspectives of some people. What a shame it is that the people of Manitoba have to pay for this learning process that's going on across the way. The next sentence in the Brandon Odyssey, Mr. Speaker, catch this one because it reflects again what I said earlier.

"Surely it is past time for Canada to show by its actions that the economic madness practised in Washington has few friends here." Well, Mr. Speaker, the same man, whose Minister of Finance was down rattling the tin cup in New York two weeks before, is now referring to the policy of the American Govern ment as economic madness. Well, I know, Mr. Speaker, I am sure, I make no brief for the economic policies one way or the other of President Reagan. Mr.

Speaker, I just have enough brains not to stick my nose into things about which I know so very little, a lesson that I would commend to my honourable friend, the First Minister. Again, Mr. Speaker, not wanting to ascribe motives, I can only attribute this to that kind of - how would one describe it? - this ritualistic kind of American bashing that our socialist friends seem to have to engage in every once in a while just to prove to some of the fellow travelers, I guess, that they really are good left-wingers.

What's the old saying, it comes out in French much more sensibly than it does in English, "but the left are never wrong." I'm afraid that my honourable friend, the First Minister, betrays that unfortunate weakness in his thinking when he makes this kind of gratuitous insult ing comment about a foreign government whose nationals he is borrowing $200 million from at the very moment that he's making the count. Mr. Speaker, one final reference. One final refer ence before I move on; one final reference to the Brandon speech.

I quote, "It has been said often that this is an age of lowered expectations," and true enough, the economic difficulties are very much on my mind, "all the same, my colleagues and I have aimed high." I'd say, Mr. Speaker, they've aimed so high they're well off the target. Mr. Speaker, the final words, "Because we share the desire of all Manito bans for this province to regain its sense of self-confidence." Now, I pause, Mr.

Speaker, on those words "self confidence" and I want to ask the people of Manitoba through you, Sir, how the people of Manitoba are going to gain self-confidence as they watch the actions of this government as they mishandle, drop the ball, and ineptly handle negotiations leading to some of the biggest industrial enterprises that this province can face? What is that doing for the self confidence of the people of Manitoba? What about the self-confidence of the people of Southwestern Manitoba when they heard that this government is

I Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 now treating IMC as though it's just another suppli cant to come to their door, to beg for the right to develop a potash mine in Manitoba on which they've already spend millions of dollars to determine that there is a viable mine there? Is that going to restore self-confidence in Manitoba? Is that the kind of part nership with business that the First Minister was blathering about in his speech in Brandon? I hardly think so, Mr. Speaker.

When you talk about self confidence, I wish my honourable friend, the First Minister, would talk to some of the members of his party about these great aims and ideals that he has for Manitoba. I made reference in the Throne Speech, Sir, to some of the resolutions that are customarily debated at NOP conventions.

I ask my honourable friends just to consider tonight how this kind or these kinds of reso lutions are going to add to the self-confidence of businesses inside Manitoba, in the rest of Canada, or world wide, as they consider that this a party that harbours within its bosom people who manufacture resolutions of the rather kooky variety that I'm going to read tonight. Whether they're passed or whether they're defeated at the convention is of very little con cern to somebody sitting in New York City, somebody sitting in Texas, somebody sitting in London or in Zurich.

They say what nature of government is this that is seriously debating resolutions? Let me, Mr.

Speaker, for the sake of the record, and these are all filed now as part of the record of the House in Mani toba, let me just read a few of these resolutions that I'm sure the First Minister opposite would have to agree will add nothing to the self-confidence of Man itobans as we're trying to build this brave new tom morrow that he's talking about as he digs a hole and sinks slowly out of sight in a marsh of his creation and of the creation of the Minister of Mines and of the Provincial Treasury or the Minister of Finance. Well, Mr.

Speaker, let's read a few of these resolu tions that are going to add so much to the self confidence of Manitobans as my honourable friend, the First Minister, marches bravely forward into this arm-in-arm partnership with business. Listen to this: "Resolution of the New Democratic Party, 82-1200-1.

WHEREAS the New Democratic Party at the last two provincial conventions and the national conven tion passed motions to nationalize where and when necessary this convention must act in unison to this motion. "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Manitoba New Democratic Party, now the Government of Mani toba, nationalized" - listen to this list, Mr. Speaker "lmperial Oil, Canada Ltd., Gulf Oil, Shell Oil and Texaco Limited." I note for the record, Mr. Speaker, that there are a number across the way who are applauding apparently the sense of that resolution or the nonsense of it. · Mr. Speaker, I would like some day the First Minis ter to enlighten us as to how that kind of resolution helps to build self-confidence among business peo ple in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, how about Resolution 82-1200-2 of the New Democratic Party at its meeting? By the way this meeting was in February of 1982, just a matter of two months ago. Listen to this one, this is another dandy, this comes from what we politely refer to, I 998 hope, as the looney fringe. Or is it the looney fringe? Is this what they really believe? Listen, Mr. Speaker to this resolution. "WHEREAS natural resources located in the Prov ince of Manitoba are the property of all Manitobans and should be developed for the benefit of all Manitobans; "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that a study be undertaken to determine the feasibility of bring all resource extraction industries under public owner ship and control." Does that represent the thinking of the honourable government opposite? Does it? Well, Mr. Speaker, is that what's going to build self-confidence among bus iness in Manitoba and cause more jobs to be created. Mr. Speaker, what about Resolution 82-1200-3, and I won't bother reading all of the

preamble to these hocus pocus resolutions. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker. You can imagine the kind of self-confidence that this kind of resolution breeds among the people of Manitoba. "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Provin cial Government establish a committee to study the feasibility of bringing the distribution of Natural Gas in Manitoba under the authority of a Crown corporation." Well, Mr. Speaker I imagine that is going to do a lot for the investors and the gas companies. That's the kind of partnership that my honourable friends want to build.

Well, maybe they'd like to hear Resolution 82-1200- 4 of the New Democratic Party at their February 1982 meeting, which they debated I'm sure with all seriousness and with that kind of sobersided, no non sense attitude that they bring to their serious, philo sophical, doctrinal discussions. Listen to this dandy, Mr. Speaker. "WHEREAS the purpose and reason for socialism is a fair share for all citizens of a country and province's resources, and nationalization bf all foreign owned and controlled mines in Manitoba is now long overdue." I hesitate, Mr.

Speaker, to ask the Minister of Mines, is that what he said to HBM&S when they said they were going to lay off 2,000 people; "Oh well, we're going to nationalize you anyway? I continue, Mr. Speaker.

"WHEREAS Sherritt Gor don Mines Ltd., headquartered in Toronto and Can ada and now controlled by New Mining in New York has proven by its actions in Lynn Lake and Leaf Rap ids to be an undesirable corporate citizen and should be nationalized; and, "WHEREAS Sherrill Gordon Mines Ltd. and its vul turous owners and directors" isn't that the nice way to build friendship and partnership and self-confi dence with business. Mr. Speaker, "it's vulturous owners and directors and shareholders have taken millions of dollars out of Manitoba over the past 41 years; "WHEREAS it owes millions in unpaid taxes and royalties.

"THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that no compen sation shall be paid for all assets, structures, machin ery, development above and below ground, plus all funds in any form be forfeited to the Government of Manitoba immediately; and,

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that all other mines. similarly controlled sh all be assessed and nationalized." Mr.

Speaker. is that the kind of self-confidence that the First Minister was speaking of instilling in the people of Manitoba when he spoke in Brandon or do these resolutions represent the true face of that gov ernment opposite. and do they represent the kind of ideological pillow talk that I mentioned earlier that goes on amongst their ranks before we are able to inextricate from them and extract from them facts about how they are failing in their negotiations on Alcan and potash and the Power Grid and so on. Mr.

Speaker. there are more that I'm sure my hon ourable friend. the First Minister. wants me to read aloud for the edification of all of the people of Mani toba as he embarks on this great program of marching arm-in-arm with industry in joint ventures and build ing the self-confidence of all people in Manitoba. What prattle coming from a Leader of a party that puts forward resolutions and debates them seriously that call for nationalization and all of the tired nostrums of tired left wingism that we find so rapidly among, par ticularly. the front bench of this government. Listen to this. Mr.

Speaker. here's a resolution from lnkster. I merely read. Mr. Speaker, the operative part of it; "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Limes tone Generating Station be postponed and that con servation, alternative energy sources. excluding nuclear. be vigorously pursued and promoted by the Province of Manitoba." Mr. Speaker. that resolution from lnkster, that comes from the party that when it was campaigning for election - I refer you now to he infamous document, A Clear Cho ice for Manitobans. under the heading Energy - here's what they said then. "Orderly development of Hydro power, orderly development of northern generating stations would commence immediately." lnkster says.

Limestone station be postponed and other forms of energy, of course. ritualistically, excluding nuclear. all other forms except nuclear be investigated. Mr. Speaker, do we believe the kook who wrote the propaganda or do we believe the kook who wrote the resolution? Because the both thoughts are kooky because they couldn't do either. They couldn't do either because they depend. Mr. Speaker, on markets for power before they can develop Limestone or any thing else and the Minister of Mines and Energy is flubbing the job with respect to that. Mr. Speaker. there are more. there are more. Listen to this one, Mr.

Speaker. Here's Resolution 82-1200- 34. which appears on page 36 of this marvelous doc ument of NOP Resolutions. "WHEREAS the former goverment" - listen to this one. there might even be a modicum of instruction in this resolution; "WHEREAS the former government introduced a five year freeze on the rates of Manitoba Hydro; and. "WHEREAS the cost of living pressure on private and corporate citizens is very great; "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the present government not abandon the previous government's commitment to the five-year freeze on hydro rates. but seek relief for Hydro costs from other sources of revenue." Now. Mr. Speaker. there's a resolution that 999 made sense. I wonder if that one passed as easily as the nationalization ones. I wonder. or does it make any difference. Mr. Speaker, does it make any differ ence. because that's what they really believe. Here's one. Mr. Speaker. here's one that caught my eye and that I'm sure passed the NOP convention and I can tell the people of Manitoba that it's being acted upon.

The operative part of this resolution and it's Resolution No. 82 1300-3 on Page 38: "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED THAT the current Provincial Gov ernment take affirmative action," - isn't that a polite name? - "and replace known Progressive Conserva tive Party supporters and presently . ." I hear a rau cous response from the back bench concurred in by a rather raucous laugh by the First Minister so we know what's coming, "and replace known Progressive Con servative Party supporters who presently serve on government boards, commissions. or other positions of importance with supporters of the New Democratic Party," submitted by the Winnipeg Labour Council. Well. Mr.

Speaker, at our convention. if we had the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce submitting resolu tions at our convention, or if we had the Canadian Manufacturers· Association. or the League for Free dom. Mr. Speaker. the people opposite would say, "Oh well, how could they let these corporate people in to pass resolutions." I merely say en passant, that it's strange that they have the Winnipeg Labour Council, the Manitoba Federation of Labour there as voting delegates.

It's that odd aberration that has been car ried over across the Atlantic, a bad aberration. from the Labour Party in Britain from whom they gained a lot of their bad habits. whereby they have these kind of corporate or collective resolutions and yet they claim to be a party of the people. Some people, Mr. Speaker. Well. I want to tell the people of Manitoba tonig ht and my honourable friends, whether they pass the resolution or not. have certainly been carrying it out.

They've been replacing Conservative appointees. not all of whom are members of the party, on different boards and commissions. some with capable people. I admit, others with people whose main claim to fame is that they are holders of a pink NOP card, and by and large, I haven't seen too much, Mr. Speaker, that aug ers too well for the public interest in Manitoba in this wholesale changeover and this kind of sheer and blatant and open and complete kind of partisan appointments.

We heard the Attorney-General try to explain one day why he had taken off one of the boards, a perfectly good citizen of the Province of Manitoba and replaced this woman with another woman whom he regarded as being. I think his words were. "more in touch with the elements or with the radical group" or whatever. -( lnterj ection ) Disadvantaged. Well. Mr. Speaker, people on boards and commis sions in Manitoba are meant to serve all people in Manitoba. not any one sector, not any one group or whatever.

And I merely say to my honourable friends opposite that they are entitled to make these changes. as long as they make them in accordance with law and decent practice. But. Mr. Speaker. they sh ouldn't expect to get away from having the label of sheer gutter partisanship being attached to them because that's what they're engaged in at the present time.

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 Now, Mr. Speaker, in case my honourable friend, the First Minister, thinks that I have forgotten him and his wonderful speech about self-confidence and partnership with the business interests in Manitoba, what about the resolution that appears on Page 51 about Sherritt Gordon Mines? And I give just the operative

section of it; this came in from Osborne constituency, the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Economic Development. Catch this one. Im agine how this instills confidence in outside inves tors in Manitoba. "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED THAT the New Democratic Party call upon the Gov ernment of Manitoba to expropriate the Sherrill Gor don Mines of Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake so that the workers there might keep their jobs and so that bene fits accruing to the mining operation will benefit Man itobans." Mr. Speaker, have you ever heard such clap trap in all you life? -(l nterjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker, somebody complains about what they've heard in the last three hours and all I've been doing in main is reading speeches of the First Minister. Mr.

Speaker, perhaps we should take a final look in the last few minutes at the document, "A Clear Choice for Manitobans." We started out referring to that doc ument; we've referred to it a few times in the course of the evening. I'm not going to go into the 1978 conclu sions of the First Minister's Conference. I commend it to the reading of Treasury Bench members opposite because the First Minister's colleagues, as recently as August, still agreed with what was contained in there, signed by the Prime Minister, signed by Premier Allan Blakeney.

So that ought to make it signable even by the First Minister in Manitoba, two of his better friends having already inscribed they signatures to it. Now, Mr. Speaker, what about a clear choice for Manitobans? Remember what I said at the beginning? Governments are supposed to tell the truth when they issue a prospectus. We expect that there is going to be rhetoric in speeches. In election campaign material we always expect we're going to find some rhetoric, but we expect there should be a certain fidelity to the truth, even in campaign promises. Mr.

Speaker, let me read from the opening page of this marvellous docu ment a message from Howard Pawley, "Great People, Great Future." My honourable friends obviously think that by uttering a slogan you solve all problems; well, you don't. "We can turn around," says Mr. Pawley, "the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years. We can tap our sources of energy wisely." Remember how wisely they tapped them in the '70s? "With ManOil and Manitoba Hydro we can develop programs to guarantee," -( Int erjection)- if the beached whale from St.

Boniface would stop his utterances, we might get on with the business of the House. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker, "We can develop programs to guarantee that no Manitobans lose their homes or farms due to high interest rates. We can provide interest rate relief and an economic climate to ensure that small business stays in business. We can ensure that all Manitoba's farms remain in the hands of Manitoba farmers through the development of an effective Farmland Protection Act. These were the solemn promises, Mr.

Speaker, of the First Minister -(I nterjection)- we'll have lots of opportunity when the legislation comes in. I would like the Minister of Agriculture to gather the figures and tell us, before he brings in his legislation, how much land in Manitoba since 1976 has been bought by absentee offshore owners? How much has been bought by corporations, absentee corporations? How much has been bought by Hutterite colonies in Manitoba?

How much has been bought by other cor porate entities inside or outside of Manitoba before he runs off making a promise that he's going to save all the small farms because in the last figures that we saw when all the honourable members were bringing in their legislation indicated that 92 percent of the farms in Manitoba were farmed and operated by their own owners who lived on the farms. Mr. Speaker, it's not my intention to bore this side of the House during the last few minutes that I wish to take tonight with reading further comments from the NOP election documents.

Suffice it to say, that if there's very little relationship to the truth as the NOP have been forced to tell it in certain respects in the prospectus and I want the honourable members opposite to take both these documents in their spare time, read them and just see what your government, what your front bench leaders are saying to the peo ple from whom they borrow the money, the Ameri cans that they kick in the shins every once in a while when the rattle their tin cup down there and then see what they're saying in their election document which was put before the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I conclude tonight by suggesting to the First Minister and to his colleagues in the govern ment that we expect that they will in the future show to us and to the people of Manitoba more frankness; that there will be less dissembling with respect to known facts, facts that are within their competence and knowledge and that they will get on with the job of living up to the promises that they solemnly made to the people of Manitoba. I said in the Throne Speech Debate, Mr.

Speaker, that governments come and governments go, and it's one of the fundamental obligations of government, as expressed by the First Minister in his brand new speech, is to try to keep faith with the people that they have been given the temporary responsibility of con ducting public affairs for. Mr. Speaker, I must say that this government has not measured up to that task, has not measured up to that test in the first four-and-a-half months of its administration. I've taken an extra amount of time to speak on this debate because, Mr.

Speaker, some of these facts had to be laid before the House and they have to be laid before the people of Manitoba early in the administration of the First Minister and his gov ernment so that his back benchers, as expressed by the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Throne Speech, can keep that kind of control on what's going on. I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for Bur rows is finding information from the questions that we ask that he has never heard in caucus.

So I speak as much tonight for the benefit of the backbenchers who aren't told everything; for the benefit of the people of Manitoba in hopes that this government will change its ways and not continue to squander its mandate, not continue to squander the faith that it earned so temporarily apparently on the 17th of November of this year. I say, Mr. Speaker, if they do that, this speech will 1000

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 then have been worthwhile in serving in some small way the public interests of the people of Manitoba. We're all here to serve the public interests of the peo ple of Manitoba and, Mr. Speaker, hope we can carry out that obligation successfully. I apologize for taking the amount of time that I have but, Mr.

Speaker, I understand that arrangements have been made by the House Leaders that if a half an-hour was given that they could clean up the arran gement whereby we have given an undertaking to see the Interim Supply passed tonight in accordance with our undertaking to the other side, and we are certainly prepared to do that. We are not, Mr. Speaker, going to vote for Interim Supply; we are not going to hold up the time of the House on a voice vote. I thank you, Sir, for your care and attention during these remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question?

Before putting the vote, I would just remind all members that the reading of newspapers in the Chamber is contrary to our rules. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines that Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to con sider the report of the following bills for third reading; Bill No. 8, if I may dispense with the reading of the full title, and Bill No. 14. MOTION presented and carried.

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE Bill NO. 8 - THE LOAN ACT, 1982 MR. CHAIRM AN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The committee will come to order. Bill No. 8, is it the will of the committee to proceed page by page or clause by clause? Page by page. --(Interjection)- Page 1, Bill No. 8 The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembin11): Mr. Chairman, I assume the First Minister will be answering ques tions on this bill and I'd just like to ask the First Minister MR. CHAI RMAN: On a point of order? MR.

PENNER: To satisfy the Honourable Member for Pembina, the questions will be answered in the first instance by the Acting Minister of Finance, the Hon ourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: I thank the Government House Leader for that information. Could the Minister indi cate why the 30-percent figure was chosen in Clause 2 of the bill? Are we on Bill No. 8? Sorry. 1001 MR. CHAI RMAN: I believe the question was on the wrong bill. The Member for Pembina on Bill 8. MR. ORCHARD: I have no questions until Page 3 of Bill 8. MR.

CHAI RMAN: Are there any further questions on Page 1? Page 1-pass; Page 2-pass; Page 3 - the Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate when the regulations referred to in 9.(1) have been gazetted? MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister of Con sumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. EUGE NE KO STYRA (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, the regulation that's being referred to in

Section 9 will be announced in due course. MR. ORCHARD: Then I assume from that answer, Mr. Chairman, that the regulations under which assis tance to homeowners, to farmers, to small business owners in the province have not yet been drafted. Would this mean that even with passing of this Bill No. 8 that monies could not be dispensed to provide inter est rate relief since the regulations are not in place? MR. KO STYRA: Mr. Chairman, I'm of the opinion that in two of the three sections of the Interest Rate Relief Program there's no need for any regulations. MR.

ORCHARD: So then I take it from the Minister's answer that without the formulation and passing of those regulations by Cabinet and their customary gazetting, that tomorrow, assuming passage of this bill tonight, that interest rate relief could be provided to those applicants who are successful to qualify in the programs? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, the benefits under the program will be paid out as quickly as possible as indicated, I think, this afternoon. The application forms are now out and are being accepted and pro cessed and the payments will be made as quickly as possible. MR.

ORCHARD: Well then, to follow up, to make sure that we're talking about the same thing. As soon as one's application passed the criterion set up, and that individual qualified, could the government provide that assistance immediately upon passage of his application, and acceptance of his application with out the regulations being in place? MR. KOSTYR A: Mr. Chairman, payments will be made as quickly as possible under the programs, and where regulations are needed on the . .

section of the program will be passed as quickly as possible, and payments will be made once those regulations are passed and the applications are processed and approved. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain.

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 MR. A. BRIAN RANSON (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman, earlier I believe the Minister answered that regulations were not necessary, and I was about to ask the Minister then why we had this

section in the bill. But I now gather from his last answer that, indeed, regulations do have to be passed under this

section of the Act. Is that last understanding correct? MR. KOSTYRA: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think if you read the

section it's permissive that they may be established, and in those areas that they have to be established they will be established. MR. RANSOM: Just very briefly, Mr. Chairman, are regulations necessary under this

section to imple ment the Interest Relief Program? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, we are of the opinion that we may need regulations under a couple of sec tions of the program, and if that's the case then we will be passing regulations in order to set out the criteria to pay the funds. MR. RANSOM: So, Mr. Chairman, then my under standing is that we're putting this

section into law because the government may need this section, and they don't immediately know that they will need it? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. CHAIRM AN: Will it pass? He has a question on 9. (4). MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have a question on

Section 9. (4)(b). The

section then would read that, "The money necessary for carrying out a program established under Subsection 1 may be expended by the government from money authorized to be so paid and applied under any other Act of the Legislature." Mr. Chairman, I'm afraid I'm not clear what that sub

section means from "under any other Act of the Legislature." MR. KOSTYRA: All of

section 9. (1), 9.(2), 9.(3), 9. (4) provide comprehensive authority for the establish ment and the delivery of the Emergency Interest Rate Relief Program. MR. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I was able to dis cern that much myself, that those four subsections dealt with that. My concern is with 9.(4)(

b) from "money authorized to be so paid and applied under any other Act of the Legislature." Does that mean then, that money passed for some other purposes passed under another Act of the Legislature can be used for this purpose? Can you go beyond the $1 O million that's been passed and use it here? If not, and the Government House Leader is shaking his head that my

interpretation is not correct, then perhaps a simple explanation of what this then means and why it's necessary to be in the Act would be sufficient. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, as far as the total amounts, that's specified in the Act. This

section does not allow us to expend monies other than authorized by The Loan Act, but provides the authority for that or any under any other Act in the Legislature like The Appropriations Act as a mechanism to disperse those funds, but the total terms are fixed in The Loan Act. MR. CHAIRM AN:

Preamble-pass; Title-pass; Bill be Reported-pass. BILL NO. 14 - THE INTERIM APPROPRIATION ACT, 1982 MR. CHAI RMAN: Bill 14, page-by-page. Page 1 -the Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, could he indicate why the figure of 30 per cent in Clause 2 was chosen? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, the amount of 30 per cent was the same as the Act last year so we got that figure from the members opposite. MR. ORCHARD: I'm satisfied with that answer, Mr. Chairman.

Could the Minister indicate approximately how long that 30 percent of the total spending author ity would sustain running the government operation until it is expired? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, this amount should last us till early July. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister, what would be the circumstance by early July should the total Estimate package before this House not have received total approval? What position would that put the department in? Would they be coming back for an additional 10 percent in Interim Supply at that time? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, I would hope by that period that we would have Supply passed, but in case that doesn't come to pass then we would have to go for further Interim. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess my question now would be to the First Minister.

How would he hope to be able to adjourn the House over summer - I believe in the press report he indicated in possibly late April or early May - without the passage of the Estimates at that time, how would he accomp lish running the government until I would assume he would recall the House some time in October or November, with only a 30-percent Interim Supply voted, which as the Minister has said would run the government to approximately the 1st of July? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. 1002 HON. HOWARD R.

PAWLEY (Selkirk): The review of Estimates prior to any adjournment of the House, indeed, if it was otherwise and the honourable members saw fit to delay the Estimates, then we would have to deal with it in another matter at that time, but it is our intention to complete the review of Estimates. MR. ORCHARD: Would the First Minister care to indicate what other methods you might employ should

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 that scenar io develop? -(Interject ion)- What other methods? Sim ple question with no si mple answer. MR. CHAIRM AN: Page 1-pass? The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: No, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minis ter indic ate how the $45 millio n was arrived at in

Section 3? MR. KOSTYR A: The figure of $45 million was increased from $36 million to correspond to 30 per cent of the commi tment authority expected to be requested in The Appropriatio ns Act of 1982. MR. ORCHARD: I note, Mr. Chair man that $45 mil lion will also be used to fulfil! contracts initia ted prior to this Estimate year coming up very shortly. Is the $45 millio n sufficient to complete all carried over con struction projects such as in the Hig hways Depar ment, Water Resources Department, etc.? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, my understanding is that it will cover those situations outlined by the Member for Pembina. MR. CHAIRM AN: Page 1-pass; Page 2-pass; Page 3 - the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, there's a new

section in the Act this year which was not in the Inter im Supply Bill last year,

Section 6(2). I wonder if the Minis ter could explain what is the necessity of includ ing this subsect ion in the bill. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chair man, in the adjustments in the main Estimates. this

section is new for this year and it's required to ensure that expenditures and rec overies related to various cost-shared agreements are properly recorded for claiming purposes. The Member for Turtle Mountain will recall that sections were included in last year's Appropriation Act for this pur pose; addi tional difficulties arising out of the com plexity of some of these agreements and there will have to be additio nal adjustment provisi ons included in this year's Appropriati ons Act. MR. RANSOM: So, this

section allows for the subse quent movement of money to various appropriations that are more appropriate in the Estima tes. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRM AN: Page 3-pass - the Honourable Member for Turtle Mounta in. MR. RANSOM: On

Section 9, Mr. Chairman; this of course is a new one too. in dealing with the Emer gency Interest Rate Relief Programs. About two thirds of the way down the section, it says that "The amount may be expended under such subappropria tions as may be established therefore under other service headings in the Main Estimates." I wonder if the Min ister could just explain that. perhaps the whole section. I expect he has notes there from the depart ment that were provided for him. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, this

section is required to permit expenditures under these programs to be made from the implementing departments from sub appropriations to be established in those depart ments. The amounts expended will be recovered from Expropriatio n Number 1, The Emergency Interest Rate Relief Program, under service heading, Emer gency Rate Relief Program of the Main Esti mates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Page 3-pass; 4-pass;

Preamble pass; Title-pass; and Bill be reported-pass. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. STORIE: I now move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Ell ice, that the report of the commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. THIRD READING Bill No. 8 and Bill No. 14 were each read a third time and passed. ROYAL ASSENT DEPUTY SERGEANT-AT-ARMS (Mr. Myron Mason): 1003 Her Honour. the Lieutenant-Governor.

Her Honour, Pearl McGonigal, Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne: Mr. Speaker addressed Her Honour in the following words: MR. SPEAKER: We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and fait hful servants, the Legislative Assembly of Mani toba in Session assembled, approach Your Honour with senti ments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and Government, and beg for Your Honour the acceptance of these Bil ls: (No. 8) -

An Act to Authorize the Expendi ture of Money for Capital Purposes and Authorize the Bor rowing of the same. (The Loan Act. 1982). (No. 14) -

An Act for Granting to Her Majesty Cer tain Sums of Money for the Publ ic Service of the Province for the Fis cal Year Ending the 31st day of March, 1983 and to Authorize Commi tments to Expend Additio nal Money in Subsequent Years. (The Interim Appropriation Act, 1982). To these Bil ls the Royal Assent was announced by the Clerk in the following words: MR. CL ERK, Ja ck Reeves: Her Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to these bills in Her Majesty's name." Her Honour was then pleased to retire.

Tuesday, 30 March, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Gover nment House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I do move, seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mines that the House do now adjourn. MR. SPEAKER: Is it my understanding that the House will not sit tomorrow? MR. PENNER: Yes, thank you very much, and my understanding, Sir, of the arrangement is, if I'm not mistake n, that the bus will leave at 11 :00 a.m., or the buses sho uld there be sufficient numbers, I suppose there's one bus. Does anybody know if that blizzard is still blowing?

In any event, assuming that the weather will permit, the bus will leave for the Brandon Royal Winter Fair at 11 :00 a.m., I believe, from the front of the House and I think all members have the timetable and the arrangements. MOTION presented and carried and the House adjourned and stands adjourned until Thursday after noon at 2:00 p.m. 1004

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-24b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 24b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	acf66ef86198dcb2c69b13b6fb4f8a35df03131b

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).