VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00p.m. - 6:00 p.~. MONDAY, JUNE 5, 1978 ~ro. 78

June 5, 1978 Tape 3909 !2-1 The ~ouse met at 2:00 P.}!, :tr. Speaker in the Chair. c!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: Tbe han. Premier. PR:C!HER HOORES: !!r. Speaker, on Tuesday, ~arch 21, 1978 it vas announced in the House of Assembly that ' ~r. Dennis J. Groom had submitted his resignation as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of ~ewfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Since that date government has quietly and successfully sought a successor to Xr. Groom. I am pleased to announce that Cabinet and the tioard of Directors of Newfoundland aydro have approved the appointment of :,!r.

Victor Young as the successor to ~tr. Groan. SO:iE HOK. :rz~-!T.lERS: Hear, hear! JREHIER ~!OORES: Mr. Young is currently secretary of Tresury Board for the Province of ~ewfoundland. His appointment will be effective ~onday, July 24, 1978. r.hope to be able to announce a successor as Secretary of Treasury Board in the near future. Mr, Young joined the provincial government in 1968 in the newly created Tresury Board Secretariate. In that position he was advisor to :.tr. Groom, ironically, "-'ho ;tt t:w.t tine was then Deputy ~linister of Finance and Secretary of Treasury Board. In l969,Mr.

Young was appointed acting Secretary of Treasury Board and in 1971 was appointed Deputy Secretary of Treasury Board. ttith the reorgani~ation of the entire government structure in 1972,I asked him to take on the responsibilities of Secretary of Treasury Board and Executive Council. In that capacity he has been the Chief Financial Advisor to government on our annual budgetary objectives related to the Province's $1.5 billion budget. He is also in charge of all public service

June 5, 1978 Tape 3909 IB-2 PREN!ER !WORSS: collective bargaining, classification and pay syste~ involving 18,000 e~ployees, pension policy for public servants, organization of management systems within government and the government insurance, For the past two years in addition to his duties as Secretary of Treasury Board, ~Ir. Young has served as special advisor to myself on a number of critical policy issues including energy development in the Province. One of his current responsibilities is that of Chairman of the Divestiture Committee dealing with potential purchasers of Labrador tinerboard.

His membership on Government Boards and Advisory Committees are too numerous to nention in detail but two of his Directorships include ~ewfoundland and Labrador Hydro and the Churchill Falls (Labrador) Corporation. Mr. Young has been involved in our hydro and energy policy field for many years. In 1974 he was a member of the group which devised and implemented the Province's acquisition of a majority share­ holding in CFtCo and its re-acquiring of the Labrador water rights.

In that same year he vas a member of an Advisory Group established by government to recommend the organizational reporting structure for t~e newly created Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Sorporation. He subsequently was appointed to the Joard of Directors of Dydro in that year. In 1977 lte was a menber of the Nceotiatinc Committee which held joint talks with the Province of Quebec on Labrador power develo?aent and the Upper Churchill contract.

Even more recently, he was instrumental in the agreement finalized at the First lfinisters' Conference to set up and initially fund the Lower Churchill Development Corporation.

r:.>-J PRE:UER :-!OORES: ~r. Speaker, I am sure I speak for everyone ~hen I am delighted to say that a ~ewfoundlander has been chosen for this particular post. He is a person who I have worked with very closely, particularly in the last tuo years. He is a young ~an who has tremendous potential for the future, a dedication to this Province, a dedication to where we want to go as a Province. And I am sure all t:l.ecbers of this Hon. House •..tish ~fr. Young success in his new duties as they are tremendously important to the future of our Province. SOHE liON. !'!EHBERS: Hear, hear! J!R. SPEAKE It: i>lR. :·7.

ROHE: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. ~r. Speaker, I would like to say a few brief words on the subject of ~r. Young's appointt:l.ent to this highly responsible position, perhaps the single most responsible position in the civil service or a Crown corporation connected with the public service in the Province today. Those of us on this side who served in the former administration before 1972 knew Victor Young very well, ~r. Speaker. It was we who put him in at that time in 1968 or shortly thereafter, as Deputy Secretary, I guess, to the Treasury Board at that ti~e.

The Deputy ~inister of Finance was, I think, autoQatically or certainly by tradition the Secretary of the Treasury Board as well, although Vic Young did the work with regard to the Secret3riate of the Treasury Board. He was the de facto Secretary of the Treasury Board all during my two and a half or so y~ars as a minister in the for~er administration. We all of course got to know him very well and got to admire him very much for the yeoman service he did for the Province in a very difficult position. The Treasury Board is not the

June 5, 1973 Tape 39:J9 IJ-4 HR. • .. :. iWHE: most popular of institutions,particularly aoong ministers who are trying to get things done in their departnents. But Vic Young did his jo~ with diplooacy, tact and also with a strong will. with a considerable amount a£ ability and we adoire him greatly for it. He has now been appointed - the appointoent has been made presumably, is in effect now - ~,\e has now tleen appointed as the head of the !lewfoundland and Labrador Uydro Corporation. We certainly welcome that. You will remeober, Sir,

June 5, l9i8, Tape 3910, Page 1 -- apb HR. W.N.ROWE: when Mr. Groom's resignation was announced we on this side called then for the appointment of a Newfoundlander to that position. I do not think anyone demurred on that on the other side. So we are glad to see him appointed to this position. He is a young man but, I bel~eve, a responsible man, I believe a mature man. Certainly, some of us who are seeking equally responsible positions are no older and I think that he can serve that position very well. There are one or two things I would like to ask the Premier about this appointment.

One, was the position advertised in any way throughout the Province? I cannot r.err:er.ber seeing ar.y advertisement, but that does not mean there was not one. If I did not see it, I assume that there was not one because I do look at the newspapers. Was the position advertised, number one, and if not,why not? And if so, what procedure and what process was gone through in order to come up with Mr. Young, in the first place, and then to secure his appointment? What recommendation procedures, for example, might have been gone through?

Was there any attempt to find a suitable candidate for this responsible position from within Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro itself? To name anybody is certainly invidious, but one cannot help but wonder about a certain gentla~an who has, again, served this Province in a very capable and yeoman way over the last number of years in the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Commission, as it was, and corporation as it is now, a vice-president at the present time, I believe. Was he interested in the job? Were there any other people within the corporation itself who may have expressed an interest? In other words, what were

June 5, 1978, Tape 3910, ?age 2 -- apb HR. W.N.ROWE: the procedures used in order to come with Mr. Young as ~~e successful candidate? .;.lso, ~1r. Speaker, if the Premier would not mind answering one or two questions with regard to the financial arrangements now of this job. We remember that Mr. Groom was enticed into the position by a fairly liberal, if not to say exceedingly generous salary arrangement, financial arrangement, salary, pension, car, as I understand it. MR. NOLAN: money. MR. W.N.ROWE: Five per cent mortgage Mortgage money at a very cheap rate, those kinds of arrangements.

Are similar financial arrangements being entered into with Mr. Young? And if not, what kind of financial arrangements are being used with regard to Mr. Young? What is his salary, for example? Also, could the Premier indicate whether this is at pleasure, the pleasure of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council,oF whether a contract has been signed between the government and Mr. Young? P..nd if so, would the Premier undertake to table the contract? Now this has been asked a number of times, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier table a contract, for example, with regard to Hr.

Cole and the Action Group, and the Premier has not yet done it. I am wondering if the Premier will undertake to table any contract that may be in existence between the government and Mr. Young, and if he could tell us when he is going to table it because we are interested in these contracts. We do not ask for them for something to say; we ask for these contracts because we want to see them and see how the public funds are being spent and looked after by this administration with regard to the hiring of top civil servants and top public servants. I cannot think of anything

June 5, 1978, Tape 3910, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: else, Sir, at the moment to ask or to comment on regarding this position, but perhaps as the day goes on and we get into the Budget Speech and the Throne Speech we might have some chat about Hydro generally and Mr. Young's position in it. But if the Premier would not mind answering these few preliminary questions? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, regarding the questions that the Leader of the Oppositon asked, the job was not advertised in the Province.

We did do a review with the Board of Directors and with the President of Hydro as to if there was a logical successor, ~~at included a review of the personnel at Hydro.

And as with deputy ministers and senior executives, if you are advertising, obviously, for a job like that internationally,which would normally be the case, as we had almost by definition insisted that it must be a Newfoundlander, if we could find the right person, as in the appointment of deputy ministers, after proper consultation I felt that it was within my prerogative to appoint a person to that senior position after proper consultation with those who are most affected. The final contract with ~tr. Young has not been finalized.

I want to check with the Board before doing that regarding both the salary and the length of time. These are two items that they certainly would have to have discussed with them before the contract is in its final form and I will lay it upon the table of the House when it is signed. On ll'.atter of ?rivilege, 'tr. Sneaker. On privilege, the hon. ~ember.

L'.JE' ::o. 311!2 nctice th,;t at such time as ! an able to obtain tbe appropriate r>ansard I shall he raising a ::;atter of privilege. It is i:: reference to sc:me stater.1ents r,.ade -.,y the ;r:e:r:1':Jer Ear St. Johnt s Last ("r, "arslw.ll) en ?riday. ! r::nCe an cf!'or:::, I :::l;::::t infer.: tLe ~-!ouse. to ~et the infornaticn t!-:is :~cr:ting and the lin;;snrd editor intention hopefully tcnor-:.-ov to r.:lise the :r:.atter of privilege. OP!oL Qt£5T!·J~;s Hen. LenCer of the ·~pposition. I direct<< question ::c t::e !'rcrr:ier, 1 'r.

Sreal-er. '?ill the Prer:::ier inform the House vf:ether nov as a result of his recc.nt visit to Labrador Fest he has now revised his opinion,or if he is no,,· persuaded that the idea of linking up Labrador h'est with Central Labrador and the coast of Labrador, in other uords. a Trans-Labrador Highvay, is not a non-issue, a very important issue, an issue nhich affects the psychology of Labrador l·'est and is considered to :;e very i!'lportant '~y the peorle livi.n?; ln ~'ai-;ush and Labrador City and that it :':ligt:t 'be in the best ir:terests of the r,overnr..ent to co-:nrnence construction of such n Labrador I!ighHay itn:nediately.

Top priority. :'?.. SPL~YT!': The !:on. the Prc:--ier. P!:.E'-'IE!:. "00P.ES: Yr. Speaker, regarding t:.e trip to Labrador l'est ~~hie!;, by the uay, contrary co any reports,! did enjoy the fact is that the road fron - ''P S. YE,-\P":": ST:Ulll tUr:10Ut, '-T. S. Yf,'l.::"l: You had a swall turnout at the banquet, a very ::ell,every table 1-.:as full. !s that so?

0ne hundred people. t·!as the ?re!:lier in :1 telephone booth? PFEYIE!! ~'DOPES: The hon. member from LaPoile (:~r. ;:eary), ''r, Speaker, seet:l.S to be worried about the S!i".nll turnout at the :;anquet. I do not 1{now if it was a snall turnout, or not. That is the Legion ~;ho had the banquet and - YR. S • ::EAPY : less than a hundred. Tt :-.ras not less than a hundred people, Sir, 1--.ut fcrgPtt::!nr_: that, the hon. member for LaFo!le seer::s very sensitive about the fact that he •.-ras net there to pass out the fleur-de-lys, I suppose.

I do not know (;hy he is upset today; but ! •.,:as not, I enjoyed the trin up there, I rret a lot of people, and as for the ~eeting, Sir. nt tl'e executive r:eet:.!.nz of tr_e PC Party the next mornin<:; tb.ere vere scrne thirty-tl-10 people there 1,;hich "A"as a saoC t;.,:rncut as vell for an executive meeting. But, Sir, the road from Labrador City to Eastern Lahrndor is obviously not one that can be started tomorrow morning. Fe have .:opproached the Federal Government to try to incorporate it i.nto tf,e Trans-Canarla system.

It is gains to cost over S300,00G,OOO and if the hon. member from :3urgeo-i3ay d'Fspoir U'r. Simtonsl feels tb<1t S31'J0,000,0r.r should be spent at the cost of sor::ething: else, I ;;r;-, sure l'e ~·ill stand in his ?lace and say so. Cut the fact is, Sir. that it is a verv co;n:lv ro;tri. It is a very costly ro.:1d and it is one tl;nt is p:oin>'" :::o have to have federal co-operation in order for !.t to be built.

It is one that vc all agree sr:ould be !-luilt. fine of the things tl::at I found iron::!.c i:l the trip •_,oas t;,e fact tl:at the fiuebec road to the Labrador herder, as ! ur..dcrstnnC lt nov .:tnd upon checking t:1is ocrning, is going to ::ake anyt-11:-:ere from five to six years minimur:J. !;Jefore lt is a ccnr;.ect::!.cn. That ':leans that obviously it is going to take a long :ddle before t~at is conpleted. And I •dsh it ~;ere ccr:~pleted, Sir, because the tin-es I ;-.,,ve ~een b LaCra.dor in the pnst, 1,1.hrador t-:'est, Hitl;cut nny qucst!on

the great majority of the people tl":crc .,,o.nted a read .JCcess to tf:e ~-:est, ,1m! t'b.at ·:~s the :;tajor concern for a lcn;j period of time and still is, I sur:gest, ::ir, t-!ith a great :rajority of the people. ! did enjoy it the other day. The frustrations of a place that has hnd this unfortunate stri;;e for t!1ree montl-:s, I r.;uess it is neW", after a long :.:inter A.nC the isob.tion and •,•hnt that causD:s I can •··ell understand, Sir, their frustrnticns rcp:ardinr roaC.s Supple~entary, Sir. Supplementary. Original questioner.

"P • r; • ~"(\' '1:; Sir, of course, nobody Genies that !.t vould ':Je .7rod to l-;n.ve i1 road froM Li!Lrndor "est into 0uebcc. I de :"lOt tl:in'-: nnyr.ody :!n La;;ruclor Fest ·~·hile ! vas there, or '"l:ile the Prenier ' . .;as there, •--·as disputing that need. That is n good thing. But vould not the Premier ar:ree that there is no need to spend ~250,000,000 or ~300,000,000 no,,·- t..·e have had a SSO,OfJO,OOO esc<'!lation '·-·it!1in the last ~~eek, "r.

Speaker, as the Pre!:lier said it t.."US $250,000,000 wher: i":e mentioned the road across Labrador last w·eek - Cut t..·ould not the Premier agree that nobody at this point in time is asking for a super four-hne hip:ht-rav :1c.ross Labrador, and that t!-:e fL;ure of S250,000,COO or SJ00,00C',I')nQ is a preposterous fi,sure. Thn.t mizht '::le renc\u::d ten, or fifteen, or tt.:enty yenrs dot.--n the rene, ::r. Sreaker, but nt tLe present tir-e n cnn.necticn c,1n be effected ;,etveen Labrndor 1:est and

June 5, 1978 Tnpe :lo. 3912 J;>r - 1 }ffi, l.J .N. ROWE: Central Labrador alone for the expenditure of several :nillions of dollars in fact and that the Government of :-tewfoundland and Labrador should commence that linkup immediately? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: ! am sure, Mr. Speaker, with the Federal representation in Labrador and the Federal Government in power in Ottawa that I a~ sure, Sir, that the application we have for exactly that road will be met with every good wish and commit~~nt. ~. W.S. ROW"'E: ~m. SPEA.'<ER: MR. STRACHAN: ~ell, why do you not just give it all over to Ottawa?

A supplementary, the han. member for Eagle River. The Premier indicates the cost is $250 million or $300 million for the road. l:e are not arguing the road to the Uest to Quebec, \Jhat we are arguing is the road East~of c:ourse,to Goose Bay. and it is a fact that trucks, buses and four-wheel drive vehicles now use the Esker to Goose Bay road, ~enerally when it is upgraded later on in another few weeks they will be using that as a line of traffic. W~~n people buy buses in Montreal or Seven Islands, they railroad them to Esker and drive do~~.

So in essence a physical link by a four-wheel drive vehicle is only sixty miles away.

What we are asking here is surely the Premier,could he tell us ~nether-we are interested in trying to get 2,000 peo~le who are out of work at the moment for various reasons would it not be possible to either use them or for the sum of a few million dollars make the physical link betveen Labrador City and \Jabush and Esker so that the commercial traffic, if not other traffic, commercial traffic, four-wheel drive vehicles,could manage to drive all the way from Wabush, Labrador City to Goose Bay at a cost of what, $3 million, $4 ~1lion or $5 million? XR. SPEAKER: The han, Premier. PR..;;;r!ER MOORES: ar.

Speaker, it vould be a great deal :r.ore t10ney than that~! would suggest,even for the roughest kind of a road, even a forest access road in the Province costs $100,000 per mile and a much betcer terrain than we are talking that sixty :dl2s here. I would suggest, Sir, it would be much more than that. Of course,we say that

June 5, 1978 Tape No, 3912 J:1 - 2 PRm1IER HOORES: as soon as ooney allows ~e ~auld like to see that road done, Ihe:re is no '1Ue.stion about that, Sir. ~. NE.A.RY: Mr. Speaker, ~. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: Xr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier, Sir.

I suppose in one sense I should be directing it to the Xinister of Fisheries,~ut it is such an urgent and important matter nncl in view of the fact that I ~11 have representation from ~y own district over the weekend in connection t..rith the fish war that is going on at the present time and alternative market conditions and so forth, would the Premier indicate if the government have made any emphasis on exploring the possibility of new markets either in Europe or in Canada, cultivating the Canadian mar!tet for fish in the event that the United States slaps tariffs on as a retaliatory measure against Canada for kicking the United States fishermen outside the 200 mile limit, Sir?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. P!tt}l!ER MOORES: !1r. Speaker, if people had listened when that Nordsee business vas being suggested, they would have realized that there is a company that markets over forty per cent of the fish in Western Europe, ~n the Austria-German part of i.J'estern Europe. That is exactly the sort of contact that this Province has to have. I am suggesting, Sir, that the ~arketing of fish in Europe is absolutely critical for any increased landings in this Province.

It is absolutely critical because forgetting any tariffs the Americans may put on,which I think at this point in t!me ~auld be a threat but I ~auld be very surprised to see it happen, but forgetting that entirely the American mar~et is a very fic~~e fish market in that any oversupply and yuu have a drastic price reflection of just a very small oversupply situation. If the future catches of the Eastern Canadian fishery is going to oarketed, obviously the area for that is !.Jestern Europe where fish is eaten much more so than in North America. As a matter of fact, I think last year it ;..ras

June 5, 1978 ?REP.IER HOORES: in North ~~erica. Tape ~<a. 3912 J~I - 3 six million tons as apposed to 3.6 million tons eaten So the fact is1 yes, the European market has to be developed. The Department of Fisheries and others are in touch with people who are in the marketing business in Europe. I know the trade, Who are the primary ones to look after this have been in touch with people in Europe for the establishment of markets as well.

I would suggest, Sir, that one of the things that we have tried to stress in the House and which is very difficult sometimes t:O realize is that when we talk about Federal responsibility and the differences becween them and ourselves in fisheries involvement one of the responsibility that the Federal Government has which I do not think has been stressed enough or been reacted to enough is the business of tariff~.

Now we have talked all along about tariff negotiations and I am not talking about the Americans putting an extra tariffs but getting European tariffs reduced like Iceland and NorYay did when they were in exactly the same position as we are. The tariff is Europe today is· fifteen per cent. Iceland and Norway when they had any bargaining leverage left had that lower bilaterally down to three per eent. ! vould suggest, Sir, that the Federal Government

June 5, 1978 Tape 3913 PK - 1 Premier 1·1oores: if we vere not in just tl:l.e t:1ass of r;X"T negotiations but if we could deal set~arately vith the EEC count::ies, if the feC.eral snverr.rr:ent ~ut enough emphasis on it- and I have said this to many of our colleagues in Ottawa, and I have also said it in this House as !las t!ie "inister of Fisheries) certainly the business of tariff negotiations is going to be as much as a major impact in our future fisheries development as any other one single issue. HR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Soeaker. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman in answering my question Sir, has mentioned the Nordsee thing, \iell I guess that is a matter of opinion on which route we take to get into the European market~or to cultivate the Canadian market which is practically untapped~as the han. gentleman is probably aware. So it depends, r~r. Speaker, on which route you want to take .

And I ~tmuld like to ask the Premier this; has the gov~rnment considered either settinq up a provincial marketing agency-because we have the raw material, and why should 11e have a middleman? - set up our own provincial marketing agency or ask the Government of Canada to expand the terms of reference to the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation to include all produce of the sea,so that we can market our own product and we do not have to pay huge coll1Tlissions or be at the mercy of Nordsee and the European companies?

Does the Premier consider this a1ternative in order to reach the European markets and the ather markets that are open to us? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, r strongly suggest that in the eventuality that a marketing agency was set up, the Nordsees of this v10rld will still have to buy it from them. mean,r am sure that the han. member is not suggesting that a marketing agency set up here in Newfoundland go into a store by store delivery in Germany. :Jot sc:

June 5, 1978 Tape 3913 PK - 2 PRHIIER MOORES: Of course, you have got to deal through the major companies over there. Also, Sir, I do not think marketing agencies by governments are the most effective way. think we should provide the opportunity and the incentive to get this done. think that is government 1 s role. I think for commodity, bulk commodity exports, marketing agencies could probably be worthwhile. But, Sir, I feel very stronaly that private enterprise is much better co-ordinating this than are governments. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, then the han. the member for \o/i ndsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, again it is a matter of ~"'f'linion which route we take, \t least I personally favour taking expandhg the terms of reference of the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation or a ne~ot marketing agency. But the Premier mentioned that he believes in private enterprise, but private enterprise has failed so far to tap the other markets that are available in the YJorld.

But there a year or so ago, a year and a half ago1 the government were contemplating putting the marketing in the hands of two or three big fish plant operators. Is the han. gentleman thinking along these lines? believe Fishery Products was one of the companies that the han. gentlemen were think about. and this would be done, of course, at the peril of the small fish plant operators which should put them at the mercy of the multinationals and so fo'rth.

Is this the sort of thing that the Premier is thinking about,putting it in the hands of two or three big natinn~l or multinational corporations to market the fish throughout the world!or is it better to take the other route that I suggested and that is the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation to market all the produce of the sea or set up a new Crown corporation to market the fish? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the marketing of two or three large companies in this Province was absolutely and totally a federal dictum at that particular time. MR. NEARY: No, it was not.

June 5, 1978 Tape 3913 PK - 3 PREMIER MOORES: Oh, yes it was. I beg your pardon. It most certainly was. MR. NEARY: r beg your pardon. PREMIER MOORES: The federal government were going to licence so many people for exporting - MR. NEARY: That is not what Ottawa told m~. PREMIER MOORES: - products from the country-1nd that included all parts of Canada,not just here. The business of large distributors being able to do their awn marketing is one thing. I would suggest, Sir, that when we talk about the small fish processor in the Province, he is at the mercy of a broker or someone of that sort now.

Hhat I would not mind seeing, and what I would encourage,which is not opposed to what the han. member is saying,is a private marketing agency where they had representation on a central group to market a11 their products, maybe eight or ten of them,so that they had same input into their own marketing agency where they could go direct and skip some of the brokers which they have to use now. That is certainly something that we would encourage, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Windsor~Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, my question in the absence of the Minister of Forestry will be directed to the Premier, and if Your Honour would I would just like a very shurt

preamble~ With regards to the spray programme,and to the Premier,we have long known, and it has been an accepted fact that the one sure way to control the spruce budworm in Newfoundland 1'1ould he the ideal weather conditions at that the right time of the evolvement of the larvae, the budwonn itself~ that given the right conditions at the ri~ht time, the weather conditions the =urlttOel ~vould either he ;Jrnstically reduce!1 or ~ossibly Hiperl out altogether, Now, Sir, we are having the kind of weather that is de tri menta 1

June 5,19i:J Tnpe ~-;o. 3914 ,:,H-1 aR. FLIGHT: to the evolution of the budwor.:l and 1 have been told by people that already the ;.:eather we are having has :;ad an adverse effect on the evolution of the budworm at this stage and if this weather continues it may drastically reduce the level of budworm. Ny question, Sir, is- and again let me emphasize that already there are indications that the present conditions with the wet cold weather that we have had has had a great adverse effect on the evolution of the budworm at this stage.

Now assuming, Sir 1 that this weather continues-- I will be presu.11ptuous if the Premier would-but if this t.;eather continues and we do get the ideal weather conditions over the next couple of weeks that would have the effect of drastically reducing the budworm infestation or viping it out altogether,what is the position of the govertu:~ent "With regards to ::taking a decision to call off the proposed spray programme? :Je are talking about only having a 'Week or t'WO to make up our minds.

What are the implications for the government pulling out of the present proposed spray programme,given :hat situation that I have outlined? HR, SPEAKE!.: The hon, Premier. PRE!JIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the technical detail of it obviously t do not know. If this ~eather hangs on,though,I ~auld suggest that no one vill be spraying anything because it is pretty unflyable 'Weatller.

But the fact is 1 Sir, that I understand that it is being :nonitored by the scientists and the people who are aware of this in the rorestry ':epartt:~ent and other branches as well,and if they come in with 11 report obviously vhatever that report is will be something that w!ll be acted on by the department • .But as I say,the detaU of how that will be done and the detail of what will be done is entirely up to the minister in this department. I have heard nothing along the lines th.2.t the hJ n. member has mentioned; I have heard nothing to change tb.c present seriousness as we see it now. HR. FLIGliT: :1R.

S?:c.AKER: :!R. FLIGirr: A suppl€.!:lentary, !-lr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, assuming again - we imve to assuoej

June 5,1978 Tape No. 3914 AH-2 i·IR. Fl!Gh'T: it: is a very important: issue and all of ;;Ie..,.foundland, including the Premier and the cinister,I hope~would be looking for an alternative to spraying and if ..,.e are lucky enough to get the right ueatiter that is our alternative.;.Je :oave been told that by everybody who have opposed or supported the spray progr~e.

I want to ask this question in- "\.•icY of the fact that ·we have t:Jo weeks left; do we have the capability ln this Province,the monitoring capability,to determine weather or not sertain weather conditions have indeed reduced the level of bud"Worm infestation or has the kind of effect on the egg count that would give us the ability to call off a spray programme? Oo we have that capability or is there a danger that we will spray not knowing that the weather has wiped out the budworm fat us? MR. SPEAKER: Han. Premier. PR.El<f!ER ~100H.ES: ar.

Speaker, as I understand it the t:i!::.ing of when the spray is to be done is based entirely upon the evolution,as the hon. member says,of the budworm in its reaching maturity. Now as they are monitoring the budworc to see what stage it has reached in maturity,! assume that if there is no budworm to monitor that there will be no spraying programme 1 but that is highly unlikely, Sir, I would suggest.

I would like to think that that was possible,and maybe we would all like to have four days frost and then we wculd know for sure that it: would not be necessary. l ~ean that if it: is ever proven to us that it is unnecessary because of our forestry officers coming back and saying there are no budworms left or there are very few left and it is not serious 1 naturally we would be in a position to listen. And,yes,there are a lot of peopl doing just that. MR.W.ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplement:ary,the han. Leader of the Opposition.

HR.W.ROWE: Directed to the Minister of Health on this same question,of course, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Health tell us that in the light of the statement made by the Newfoundland Medical Association late last week to the effect that they are completely against, almost

June 5,1978 Tape :io. 3914 AH-3 ;m.W.RO\IE: unanimously, as I understand the statement. a~ost unanimously against spraying Xatacil into headwaters of rivers or near sources of water supply or near communities, in the light of that considered opinion passed by resolution by the highest professional body in the land, in the Province as far as medical matters are concerned~ would the minister tell the House whether he has reconsidering the extent of the spray programme or whether his colleagues are reconsidering the extent of the spray programme,if not abandoning the programme altogether,c.he e:,:tcnt of the programme,particularly near his own riding, :tis 01<."0. district Gander Lake,and t.he spray that is a;o.i.4g on near soce of t.he coastal communities in the Province?

Has it been reconsidered? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, I might say chat. the Hedical Association did not make any reference to head waters, ~e }~dical Association's resolution made reference co near community water supplies and populated area~. I should inform the bon.

House that after speaking with the Medical Association at their luncheon on Saturday at Hotel Newfoundland, r had a shor~ meeting with the executive and the executive of the association are meeting with us tomorrow afternoon,l;nen I say 1meet.ing with us~meeting with my officials, myself and my officials in the Uepartment. of Health, and also the minister and some officials from the Department of Forestry and Agriculture so chat

June 5, 1973 Tape 3915 IB-1 ~!R. H. COLL!:'lS: we can show the~ what we have in mind, what we envisage in teras of a spraying progracme, what our plans are in terms of avoiding water intakes in populated areas. And hopefully, ~r. Speaker, after we have done that then we will be able to determine just what is ~eant by this resolution. Because when they say near communitY water supplies and populated areas we will want a little more definition of that. He are lookin; forward to having a good discussion with the !JMA tomorrow afternoon. J!R. FLIGHT: ~IR. SPEAKER, One final supplementary. A final supplementary.

The han. mecber for Windsor-Buchans. :1R. FLIGHT: To the ~!inister of Uealth: Would the minister indicate to the House- as he knows over this past couple of weeks medical experts in the field of medicine have questioned the characteristics of Mataci1. They have questioned the adverse effects and they have laid on the line pretty strongly that they have become aware of characteristics of Matacil that they are not prepared to condone, that they think may be detrimental to the health of people or to the total environment~or what have you.

Has the minister had his advisors, his medical advisors, confirm or deny the alleged cl1aracteristics or the alleged adverse effects that :tatacil might have on either the long term welfare and health of our people or on the total environment? I am not aware of the minister or his officials aaving denied or having put the lie, so to speak, to the charges that are being made by medical experts in this Province and their concerns about the various characteristics and the various effects of ~atacil. HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health.

June 5, 1973 Tape 3915 ID -2 ~-!R. ;I. COLLinS: ~r. Speaker, as I have said on earlier occasions,! received o.y advice from the ::nedical officers in the department and mainly, I suppose, from the Chief Provincial :ledical Health Officer 1 who in turn obtains a great amount of advice and infor!!lation from the Health Protection Brancl1 of the Federal Depart~ent of Health and Welfare and also from the Food and Drug Directorate of that same department, the federal Department of Uealth and Welfare. I ac not sure as to what medical advice c:.e think I might know. hon. member is alluding to.

He is probably alluding to I some statements which have been made by a certa!n physician in Central ~ewfoundland.

All of the information which that gentle~an -if I am provoked I am in agreement ·with the gentler:tan co what:! he refers - but all of the medical advice which has been given as opposed to the spray programme~having concerns about the effects of ~lataci1 and so on and so forth, all of that information, all of these references have been researched through the appropriate federal aut:horities and at the meeting tomorrow with the Newfoundland !ledica1 Association we will look at the allegations which have been made by some physicians in :lewfoundland, some practicing physicians, and we will also look at the information which we have been provided with from Health Protection Branch, Food and Drug Directorate, Ottawa.

And please goodness when that is done then the Medical Association and ourselves will be able to come to the right conclusion. XR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Say South followed by the han. gentle::".en Trinity-Bay de Verde and Fogo. for St. John 1 s West,

June 5, 19iB T::tpe 3915 ::~-3 )!R. !iOLAN: !!r. Speaker, a question for the ;,!inister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing. I wonder would the minister be good enough to inform the House whether the Chairmanship of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housi~g Corporation which is presently held by ~r. Vivian, is t!r. Vivian's contract about to run out? Does he intend to resign? And if so is the minister going to advertise to fill this position~ Here importantly, has he already held discussions with residents or citizens to fill that position, namely a civil servant in this building? HP.. SPF.AKE.R: :m.

DINN: The hen. !Iinister of Municipal Affairs. The answer to the first question is yes. The second question is yes. The third question !s yes. ~lR. NOLAN: ~-!R. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, ~!r. Speaker. A suppleoentary. Would the minister then be good enough to inform the House vhen Hr. Vivian is going to retire and vho the person is vho is to be appointed? It has been advertised then? former question. :mtA!l: vp_. DIT1: discussions. the !'ouse: That was a part of ~y ..o. \;ell, I IJill rereat it. You aske':l crhet::Oer there '.Jere l!e nisled the House.! He nislerl N·.av.

If I may rephrase it agn.in t!:c:-t. rnrt cf e:1e first question ! asb:d was, ;;a.s t;1e po<;ition urtvertised. T1le position nas not <Hlvertised. I also askeC if discussions

June 5. 107?- Tnpe Yo. 3'?1E 'T J. 'i0LA'i: •,;ere held vith any residents of the Province to fill this position acd I •:as even ~ore specific !.Jy sayin~, ·•:.·as it discussed ''lith a civil ser<rant to replace "r. Vivian?" t\ow I t;ould 1~1-:e to ask if l::e is ;:;otng to a'"'vertise for the position and if he has already ~ade a deci:ii.on •,lith his Cabinet colleagues nho it is, and ~-then. ••ro SP:::AY.EP; The ar.swer of the first ?art is, 1 ?'-:o'; I indicated that ! vill recognize t:Ce bon. nerr.ber for St. John's :.Jest next. Does the hen. gentleman have a supplenentnry? Yes, Sir.

Final suprle~entary. ''1< J. Y0LA:.;: T arn ve~1 interested i~ the infornaticn for the public,obv:iously. So, again, r will ask the !~inister. l-!ill he be good enoup:h to tell us did he say he ~<·as not going to advertise? !;oes the Premier have to coach him? Is he going to advertise this rnsitjon? Yes or ~o. No. ~:a. Ee is not coing to advertize the positicm. f\id he ttcen discuss 1-!ith more t!lnn one person? I r..eo.n, ,,:hat is the method of selection? tlould l:e !::Je good enoush to tell us t!•ut? '1m decides? YP SPFMZt!': Hen. ~'inister of Funicipal ,\ffairs. ~rr.

Speaker, '-''hen the decision is finally r3de the Eousp of :l<ssP~hly '.'ill 1Je so infor.:J.ed. Finally. 0h, oh! J. ?-10LAN: Supplenenta.ry, Yr. Speaker. _"" __ SPF;'YEP.: I :-tad indicated that that vould be the last sun?le;nentary. Having so said, I think in fairness I tJill recognize t::e !Jon. member for St. John's :-•est. S0''E !Y"-~'. vr:':'lf'FS: --- ~ f·h, oh.

nrcer. please: ~·r. Speaker • my ouest: ion is directed to'mrds tbe Yinistcr of 'fun:!.cipal Affairs. In vie¥: of the rather confused statement in the morninr; paper •dth respect to the cost of the ne•·: ur!:::m hill, can the \'inister :;ive a rough indication to this !-:ouse as to l;o~., T"tlCl'. taxes can he expected to increase, first of all in the rity of St. Job1's, secondly in other municip"llit:Les in the :·etrcpolitan l"""'i ("1"!, '1:-tr' t..,1.rr11v un~_ncorpnra::ed ccr.:rnuni tics t::terein, if rezion:;.l c~rrie~ cut the ~andate?

Eon. ~~inister of Yunicipnl .\ffnirs. ''r, <:;peaker, the first ';Uesticr. ·:as Lon rucL t cio ~ot t :i:<~ they si:cujd increase at all. Tl;<' [net o: tl".c r:nttc.r :s, tl·e rezio;"t3l conr:ci1 1'il1 sell \..'nter to the City ns it ·ill St':l ,,'I"lter to every r:".u;:;.ic.ipalit:' a:1d people in the unir;corporated areas, ·-1hen they are. serviced, n.t the sal':te rate. They 1-:111 all get it for an enunl anount, so muc~ per thousa:J.C gallons, :::a 1 do not i·.now if the ta:.:es sl·-ould increase.

Certair.ly I cia CJot think they vill. do not see C\ny reason tJhy they should. 1'he ansver to the second ouc.st:!.on of 1dll the tn-xcs increi'l.se in the unincorporated areas, there t·ill 2e no taxes "i th respect to rt>sidcnts :ln t~.e unlncorrcrated nrens until ::hey "~".

J. ~:OL\!-I: Or business t~~. -----"-- recor..:::endat::!.on. rot countin3 business tax, !Jusiness taxes arply n.ow within t:be :·etro nren.. :,:ith respect to residencs,t~ere •orill be no taxes until the resiCents receive service such as ,,·ater and se-;.·er, street lighting, ;ar!Jage collection and tLnt :dnd of thing. l>11cn they get those services, obviously they >:ill pay for those services. So there uill be no taxes othe!' than t-;hat they

have no"'• and r:o people in the unincorporated <1reas Hill l'e taxed until they get service. '-1'. J. ;:ntAK: ~~: :!P. J. Y0L\!;: Supplementary, ~!r. Speaker. Final supple~entary. ! tmnder is the Yinister in a position to give us any iCea of ,_.L1t thev are going to sell Hater for. I :-:ean, "1e knows nctJ approximately the kind of money that has been put in there from the federal and Provincial sources, cuite a substantial su.':l, to develop 3nv 2ulls Jig !:'onC, •·c ;.::n0'-' --~hut the Cit:! of St. :ohn's. for example, has l;;een ntte:npting to clair,) per :;allen fro::~ ?'aunt ?earl.

T <1m just <;,tonderint; if the ~'inister has :my kind of a ballpark figure no•·1 of '-'b1t •.ve are lookinl_:.' at in terns of r;allonnge costs, or is he :!_n rt :"os:::icn at rrll :tt thL> :noment to give such nn an.s~,•er? ''F. SPE-X!<E.R: Han. !'i!:':fster of \-unic!.;Hll ;l.ffairs. ''!', J. nn~:: ~r. Spe.:tker, t:e are tryir:.g to determine that. \·:e have about sb: months of data.

The important months are the summer months •-·hen 1·:e vill get a fair reading on how much "'ater is consumed, so we •·rill knoc<J in the next couple of nont:hs, but it vat"ies from month to r.:onth and it varies frot:l tiJCnty-five cents to forty-one cents per thousand gallons at this point in tine. llon. membet" for Trinity-Day de Verde. ::r. Speaker, the Premier about a month ago in ansver to a question put to him indicated that he •,;auld table the contract of the Chairean of t!1e ,'lction r:oru:~itte~S, the ,\ction Grou?, S-recinl f1ction Group, Bob Cole.

Sir, the Premier has not tabled tr.at vithin the last mont:1. I Fonder nmr if the ?rerlier is in a position to indicate to t\-',e: House, Sir, the length of :::hat contract. Is it ten years as has been indicated by sone people?

June 5, 1978 Tape No, 3917 J!-l - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PRE!!IER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the minister is not here today and I ~11 undertake to get the contract and get it tabled, ORDERS OF THE DAY: !11\. SPEAKER: Motion 11: Motion, the hon, the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill,tt~\n Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act, 1973, u carried, (Bill No. 54). On motion, Bill So, 54 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. !11\. SPEAKER: Order 3, the adjourned debate on the Budget, the han. member for St. George's. !-1RS. MCISAAC: !1r~ Speaker, - Sm!E HON. }ffi)ffiERS: Hear! Hear!

MRS. ~1CISAAC: Thank you! I think I have about twenty minutes to go,I am not sure, and that is certainly not enough time to go through my district but I ~11 just pick a couple of items that I am concerned about and another one, the one that ! vas supposed to start on Friday~ was the fishery. I am verJ much concerned about the fishery in the Bay St.

George area, In the spring of the year ~e have the draggers coming in there or seiners,whatever you want to call them,as I am not very familiar with the nar.e of them,but I have seen plenty of them and they come in and the fishermen are telling me that they are ruining the fis~ery in the Bay St. George area. Now ! am not a fisherman but my father and my grandfather were fishermen and we have quite a few people in the Bay St. George area who are fishermen and will be fishermen for years to come providing the fish is still there.

But in the meantime what is happening is the spawning grounds,I am told,are being completely destroyed by those seiners or draggers,whatever,and we are getting to a point now where five years down the road we may not have a fishery in Bay St. George. It is fine to talk about the offshore fishery. Sure it is good, TI1ere are a lot of people making a living from it .But if in th~ process of establishing our 200 mile limit and looking after the offshore

June 5, 1978 Tape :1o. 3917 JH - 2 :rn.s. :-!CISAAC: fishery Ye destroy the livelihood of the inshore fishermen, then I do not see much benefit from that. Because we have a group of fishermen right now in my district who are ready to go on social assistance, They have been completely ~ped out, these lobster fishermen now.

I presented the :.unister of Fisheries with twenty-one letters or twenty-one estimates of damage a fe,., days ago and those t<..renty-one people were wiped out to the point where I would say about sixty per cent of them will not be able to get back into the fisherJ this year;and this happens every year at the beginning of the season. He have a storm and lobster pots and everything are destroyed and the fishermen just do not have the financial means. I spoke to the Minister of Fisheries the other day and he said now what the fishermen should do is they should have some backup gear. !low that is easy to say.

That is very easy for the !ti~ister of Fisheries to say,that the fishercen should have some backup gear. But the fishermen L, the Bay St. George area cannot afford to cake a double amount of gear. For instance,if they are going to set 200 pots they cannot afford to go out and make 400. They are very fortunate if they can afford to make 200 as most of them out there are on social assistance up until fishing time or unemployment,because ~e had no employment ~hatever or practically no employment.

Thanks to Flinkote and a couple Of the other smaller industries we have a fey people employed,but the fishery could be one of the mainstays in the Bay St. George area if there was a Yay that the fishermen could survive. !{ow the Minister of Fisheries is not in his seat right now and I cannot ask him the couple of questions that I would like to ask him. A couple of years ago - I see he is getting ready to go on the elevator so I guess I Yill not get the ans-Jers to my questions anyway but I will go ahead and hope that he may get around to answering thee next week.

I understand that, okay fine, I know we had gear replacement programmes at one time and now we do not have them, And this is unfortunate,that the innocent have to suffer for the guilty. But in the

June 5, l9iG Tape 3918 IJ-1 ;iRS. ~!C!SAAC: meantime last year -:he same thing happened; the fishermen got wiped out at the be~inning of the season, right at the beg~"ning of the season wl1en they had not yet earned any ooney and did not have any money set aside to replace the gear that they lost. So the gear that they spent all Winter trying to put together vent with one storm. They had no money to go back and repl3ce that gear. I know that the fisherman has a resoonsibility as well as everybody else to look after himself and protect hi~self and I am not saying that it is all government's responsibility.

I think that the fishermen should be looking for some kind of an insurance scheme that, you know, will protect them but I think that we have to get the provincial and federal governments involved. ~ow I may have ~isunderstood, but I believe that the ~inister of Fisheries indicated to me on Friday when ! asked him a question, not in the House but pr!vately,that the feds would not go along with it. Well, did I understand the minister that the feds would not go along with it, with the setting up o: joint assistance prcgramme,financial assistance programme? You are right. ~1R, W. CARtER; ~iRS.

HCISA.AC: Well,see here is the thing: ;.;-hat happens to those fishermen in the ilay St. George area, not only there but all along the coast1 !hey have been wiped out completely. They had no insurance. There is no insurance scheme for them. There is no assistance programme for them. Fine. So they lose their gear. Okay. _l[!_, ~L CARTER: :taybe I should just point out here on a point of order, an explanation,for the statement just made by the han. :ttember, that there was an assistance programme in the Province in 1977 which have paid out in excess of $2 nillion subsidy on groundfish and pelagics

June 5, 197S '::ape 3918 !3-2 to go towards the cost of replacing worn out gear, lost gear, getting new gear. an even greater amount. In 1978 we are budgeting for So we are subsidizing gear. We are assisting fishermen to buy new gear, to replace ~ost gear and to replace worn out gear. ~[RS. MCISAAC: ~r. Speaker, on a point of order. I think the Minister of Fisheries is taking from my time and he is not relating to the subject that I am relatin3 to at all. This is a completely, entirely different subject.

I am speaking solely of the lobster fishery and I do not think that he is referring to the lobster fishery. ~IR. ~. CARTER; They do net need that. They do not need it. ~f?.S. ~!C!SAAC: l!R. W. CARTER: pound. ~!RS. ~ICISAAC! need it. ~!R. H. CARTER: ~IRS. ~!CISAAC: They do not need it. ~ot at the price of lobster, $1.75 a At the price of lobster, they do not Of course not. What would the minister say that it would cost to prepare for the lobster fishery1 Fo~ instance,will you give oe a price, you estimate, to build a lobster pot? !!R. H. CARTER: Yes. Less than ten dollars.

The price of three lobsters. ~1RS. ~!CISAAC: Honderful if you know the source! If the Minister of Fisheries can com• up with that source the fisheroen froo the West Coast and the fishermen from all over Newfoundland will buy their lobster pots from whoever can produce them for ten dollars next year because I know that in my district it is costing fifteen and sixteen dollars to produce a lobster pot. And there is no way in the world - and along Hi:h that, further:::~ore now the

June 5, 1978 Tnpe 3918 13-3 :!RS. !1CI SAAC: minister indicated and I just had it confirmed, he said the feds would not go along with it. No'(,f I checked this out because this is something that concerns me. The fishery in my area has been neglected for years and years, not only under this administration but as far back as I can remember and under the previous administration as well. Not only the fishery, the whole area was neylected. But the fishery '(.las. 90'(.1 we have got one of the ~est harbours in the vorld, one of the qix most natural, I think it is, in the world. We have got faciliti~s there.

We have got a beautiful harbour where boats come in and they come in to shelter. ~e ltave got it right there bu: it has got to be developed. No'(.f the l!inister of Fisheries told me that the fcds would not go along with this assistance programme to help replace the gear lost by the lobster fishermen last week. ~lR. W". C.\R!ER: I did not say that. URS. Z-!CISAAC: You did say that the feds would not go along with an assistance programme. I said they would not join us in an insurance programme. HRS. aCISAAC: They will not join you in an insurance programme. HR. w.

CARTER: Uot to replace the gear lost last week. l!RS. ~!CISAAC: Hell anyway ,I unders toad from talking to the minister that - I ~as tal~ing about gear loss when I presented the minister a couple of days ago with twenty­ one estimates from my area and I asked what could be done about it, is there was going to be an assistance programme, a financial asssitance programtle between the federal and provincial governtlents and the minister said the feds

June 5, 1978 Tape 3910 HRS. :-ICISAAC: will not go along with it. :.za. W. CARTER: !IRS. HC!SAAC: Right. That is right, is it? IJ-4 \Vell from what I can understand from the federal Depart~ent of Fisheries the minister has not made a request for a joint provincial-federal

June 5, 1978, Tape 3919, Page 1 -- apb HRS. MCISAAC: prograrr~e to assist those people, that he has asked for an extension to the season but he has not asked for any financial assistance programme or joint assistance programme. An extension to the season is not going to help the fisherman because where is the fisherman going to get the money? Where is he going to get the money to get back in business? It is easy to say the fishermen are getting $1.80 or $2.00 or whatever a pound. They are not getting $1.80 right now, that dropped. They did get it for a short time.

I believe they may be getting $1.50 or something like that but the thing about it is they are wiped out right at the beginning of the season. And the Bay St. George area has been on the broad of its back since Linerboard closed. In fact, it was practically there before Linerboard closed. There is just no way that those fishermen can come up with the money to replace the gear that they lost. So here we are with a bunch of fishermen who want to earn a living, who want to be independent and there is no way that they can get any assistance. Now, maybe there is some loan they can get or something like this.

Maybe the minister can tell me of some way that they can go about getting a Fisheries Board loan or something. A lot of them did not only lose their lobster pots 1 some of tha~ lost their boats. I mean, they are wiped out. The only place for them to go is to the Minister of Social Services and this is where they will be heading no doubt, so we have more people on welfare.

I am not saying it is the full responsibility of the provincial government, but I certainly think that something should be looked into, some programme should be set up between the federal and provincial governments and, of course, with the fisherrr.an

June 5, 1978 1 Tape 3919, Page 2 apb !-1RS. ?-1CISAAC: and let the fisherman contribute too. I am not looking to get the fisherman completely off the hook. He should put something into it as well as expect to get something out of it and I believe that he is willing to do that. But until there is some kind of a policy set up, until there is something done to assist him, he is going to be in the same boat next year as he is this year. Now, he goes on social services, okay, fine! There are no jobs. What happens to him next year? He may not even get back in the water.

There are fishermen out there now who cannot get licences. All right, this may be federal too, but there are fishermen quitting every year and there are no new fishermen or not enough fishermen licenced to take the place of the ones who are leaving. This again is helping to wipe out the fishery and leave people on welfare. They want to work but they just cannot do it because they cannot get licences. And if they get licences, then this sort of thing happens to them and they are gone, they are wiped out, back on social assistance.

There are people in my area, in the Codroy Valley area, in the Robinson 1 s area who have been fishermen all their lives, who have been independent all their lives and would like to stay that way, but they are ending up right in the same boat as a lot of other people out there. There are ways and means to keep th~~ out of it and I am asking the minister if he will look into it, see if there is some policy that can be set up between the federal and provincial goverlli~ents to assist the fisherman and include the fisherman. Sure, let him pay his share!

I have to pay my insurance and whatever, so I am sure that the fisherman

June 5, 1978, Tape 3919, Page 3 -- apb !>ffiS • HCISAAC: thing. is willing to do the same We have salmon- now,this is on the commercial basis but here we are now with the sports fishery opening pretty soon and I do not know what is going to happen. Of course, this is not the minister's concern or worry, I know, but it certainly is the worry of the administration, and there are salmon rivers in Newfoundland. I am sure that the Hinister of Tourism will take a look at this and see what can be done. In the past I have found him to be very co-operative and I have to say this. MR. CALLAN: Is that right? MRS.

MCISAAC: Yes, I have. When he was Minister of Transportation I tell you we got a lot of new equipment in our area, equipment that was badly needed and we got it through that minister. And now that he is Minister of Tourism - You know, you throw a bouquet where it belongs. ~m. CALLAN: sure! And lots of rocks as well. MRS. MCISAAC: He did quite a lot with the transportation problems in our area, with the equipment problems and I hope that he is going to take a look at what is going on with the sports fishery.

Because every other year we have had rivers open to the poachers, we have had no wardens - well, not no wardens, we have had a few wardens. That is not what they call them. They do not call them wardens,they call them guardians. There are a few wardens and a few guardians but not nearly enough to cover the rivers. The rivers we have - I do not know how many rivers, I can name them - but we have probably one guardian trying to cover two rivers and there is no possible way that he can do it. Everything is open to the poachers and this is part of our tourist industry, something -..:;:&1: could be developed

June 5, 1978, Tape 3919, Page 4 -- apb HRS. t1C!SAAC: to the fullest, something that every other province in Canada would just love to have, the salmon rivers that we have in our Province. The tourist potential that we have in our Province 1 if they had this in other Provinces they would have ~t ~eveloped to the fullest extent possible and we would not have to worry about being bankrupt, or close to it or whatever shape we may be in financially. I would say that

June .5, l9ia :uts ~·!c!SAAC: it. A~~ HO~ .l rE·!BER: HRS !iciSAAC: Ta.pe 392.0 Pi:-1 if ue are nor. bankrupt. v:e are pretty close to that is right. But I certainly think that the tourist industry could be developed and could contribute to this Province probably more than any other department over there is contributing. Right. :IilS :-JciSAAC: Because tJe have got, for instance - t..~ell now, ve do not have very many swimming pools and Btuff, but we certainly have beautiful beaches on the :·:est Coast of t~te Province.

So 'We h.:lve our beaci1es, but in the last. couple of years they have not been fit for use as recreation areas for s"Wimming, picnicing a.."ld whatnot - because there were so many ;.;hales around , you kno~o~, that that ~o~as wiped out completely. TI1ere was no hope for recreation or s"Wimming in the last couple of years. But we have another area, Black B.J.nk, that stretches for miles. I know that any other province in Canada would just love to have it, because it is really something.

There is a sandy beach that stretches for miles and miles and r bet you there is not one person who travelled West who has not stopped at Ba.rachoix Zrook. !l'ow Barachoix Park, .Clack Bank we call it is half way between Stephenville Crossing and St. George's on the main road. And this is somet!1ir.g that che t:li.."lister, I hope, will also take a look at. He has assured me that he will be coming out to the area shortly after the House closes to go through the district .;m,d look at the tourist potential. :1R. C.ALL\.l."l: Is that right?

NRS HciSMC: The Hinister of Tourism, yes, he has, And I think that ..,.hen he looks at it he will realize that what I am saying is correct, and maybe we can do something with our tourist potential on the West Coast of the Province, We are right there,

I I June 5, 1978 Tape 3920 PK - 2 Mrs. Mcisaac: very near the ferry from Nor->:~ Sydney, and there is the Codroy Valley,one of the most beautiful area:: not only in the Province but in Canada. And I know the minister will look at that and, I think, that he may find something that can be done as far as tourism is concerned. And so I will let that go. I do not have too much time left . . 4N HON. MEMBER: MRS. MCISAAC: You know, how much time do I have left? Four minutes. Four minutes.

Okay, four minutes.! may get a chance at some other date to touch on the other items that are bothering me. but one is the Minister of Education is not in his seat. but am qoinq to rto on vlith the question any~,otay - I would 1 ike to have a couple of auesti ons ansl-'!ered 1-!i th respect to the Public Tendering Act, and this one concerns the school in He. Kays and the contract v1as awarded not to the lowest bidder. First the contract was awarded to -well ,:he next bidder to the lowest bidder was $9,200 over. So the contract was not awarded to the lowest bidder.

Now I know what the answer, you know, is I mean know what answer the minister has given, but I am not satisfied with it. When you are talking about $9,200 to me that sounds like a lot of money. That is ? lot of money, especially in this day of cutbacks and restraints, and when we have to lay off teachers. 59,200 is a lot of money.

Nov1 the only reason that was given. this gentleman, or this company which did not get the c.ontrac.t., which had bid $9,200 below the next bidder,was that they had not indicated that they could complete the contract \'lithin the time. ihere was no time specified on the tender form~ one company tendered that they could complete it in eight months; the company which had the lowest bid indicated ten months, There was no indication in the tender document that time was of the essence, and in order to save $9,200 of the taxpayers money, all it took was a simple phone call to that low bidder and ask him, Can you complete the contract in eight months rather than in ten months?

And the answer would have been, yes, the contractor could have done it, and he told me that he could have done it; but he contacted the school board and they just

June 5, 1978 Tape 3920 PK - 3 Mrs. Hcisaac: passed the contract on to the next lowest bidder, $9,200 above the low bid. And the gentleman who bid the $9,200 indicated to them,on telephone, that he could complete it in the time limit required. But the thing was that there was no indication in the tender document that time was of the essence They were not asked for a completion date. When he was infonned as to why he did not get the contract, he said,''! can complete it in eight months and save you $9,200: 1 But that was not good enough. They passed it on to the next lowest bidder. Now I am not satisfied with this, and I would like to know

Tape >O. 3921 :"T-1 "RS. E. •rctSAAC: just ;-?iHlt is - I ;;.n not familiar with the Public Ienderi':li; Act ~ut I certainly thinL vhen it cones to saving S9,200 of the taxpayers l"'Oney and the contrnctor is •.rilling to, or informs the coopany, 'I can do it in that length of til':le! and there vas no indication given that tine '•'as of the essence, I t¥ould l.!.~:e to have that one explained. :-:ow there is a lot ::~ore and my tir:1e has expired, nnd maybe I Hill set back to some of my other problems. ~?:.,_p;:·. ;'E:'3EPS: ·:rs. H. :- CI.S,\AC: "~.

SP~A!ZEf' (YOl~lG): By leave, by leave: 7hanl: you Undly. 2on. ner.1ber for 3onavista ~·1orth. !'ear, hear! •·r. Speo.ker, may in startint; co:~~:ratulate: the ;,ember fer St. Georre' s (''rs. "cisuuc) on 'l very rood speech indeed. So!:'.e of the t!-lings that she hi'l.d to say ! '.-:holehenrteCly agree c:ith :l.s it affects !:he fisherY,since there are lobster fishermen in r:;y Cistrict as tJell as in :-ters. :•ay I say at the outset that I have listened •<~ith intense interest to the de:-Btes that have tal~en place in this hnn. House stnce the House first met in ?· 1arch of t'1i'3 year.

Certainly T have sat and listened as much as any ;r.er.1ber in tl:e House sincf2 t!:e :Jud:;et debate ~-·as calleC a little over a w·eek, or just i.lbout t~Jo 1:eeks ngo. I •Aould lil:e to sa;: :::~at T 3.;3:'2P '-:itb scr:te of the re!71arLs t:-:nt have :-,een !!'aCe by previous spea!r_ers. ! an in total :;greert~ent ;:ith the ~'inister of Fisheries wheE he sn:!.d in his renad:s that r,;e should ~JUild up our fishing fleets to the poirt where Canad!<!ns are able tc harvest all of the totnl allct~nble catch uithin the 200-:nile Hrdt.

I t;ould also agree ..,.ith hir;1 t-Jhen he says that until '!e can catch all the total alloHable catch then t.;e must allov fotei:;;ners to taP.e tl-.e a':",Ount tf'.at ·,.;e cannot :Carvest because there is

3une 5, 1-::07£ ~'P G. CP:ClSS: a hur:gry lJOrld to be fed and ·-·e :::ust shoK that ,,1e are .l respcnsible people. During the past weekend I had the opportunity to tall: uith some of the people in ::~y district and, certair:.ly, they n.re concerned as to •e•hcth!!r or not there is a surplus of fish.

T~e concern of the fishe~en of the district that I represent where the inshore fishery - especially the northern end of the district "here the inshore fishery is vr:ry important - the concern of the :':isherr,en is t\1nt the ~.;rounds that tb.ey ply and fish frcr-:, that tbe lcngliners use, ilre fished over the tt.:elve-month period alr:'ost en an hourly basis.

The long liners commence fishing in Yay end up until th end of September they catch fish on the fishing grounds off ttce>: r..l:"rtb,east coast. especially the 7unL Islanc! bank, tut after the lon?:Hner fiohernen [1ave fbished for the year then it is that the draggers move in and fish then from the tine that the lcr.r;liners have discondnued up until the time that they begin agnin. They feel that the draggers rake the bottom and then there is less left for the fishermen, the near and ins!:ore fishernen.

And this can he tlroueht out in the fact that ;,;hen the longliner fishery begins in ~'ay n.nd June, the catches are not as great as they are in July and August. Tte fishermen say ttat it takes n couple of months for the fish to recuperate and for fish to svirn bact: onto the fishing grcu::ds. ~8rtainl:r, this i.!al:es for a short inshore fishery when the fish is nlent:iful.

June 5, 1978 Tape ~o, 392:!. J}! - 1 ~!R. G. CROSS: The member for Lewisporte expressed concern over the herring fishery in his district and I Yould have to agree with him when he expresses his concern for the taking of too many herring during the spawning season that could deplete our herring fishery. Certainly some of the herring that is caught in ~otre Dame Bay as well as in Bonavista Bay is processed in a herring plant in my district namely at Valleyfield because herring are trucked in from all over to be processed both in spring and fall.

The Hinister of Mines and Energy in his remarks placed stress on the importance of developing our resources. stress on the creating of new dollars. We certainly know that services are essential but we can never develop a sound economy on the providing of services alone, The jobs created in the service sector are certainly short lived, and when the services are completed unemplo:~ent is the result. Certainly providing services cost money with ver:y little return.

Developing our resources cost money as well but certainly in a t=ue sense it is the developing of the resources that creates the ne~ dollars which enables government to provide people with services and also it is the employment that allows people to pay for the ser~ices that a~e rendered. Mr. Speaker, for the next few minutes I would like to compare the spendings of 1972 with the spendings of 1978 in some of the major departments of government. Looking to the ~ro departr:~ents where the needs are greatest,! should say possibly and certainly the dollars to be spent should be many.

But if ~e look at what has happened from 1972 to'78, take for example the Department of Education. In 1972 the total spending in education vas $135,176,600. In 1978 the gross spending is $305,332,500, !n 1972 teachers salaries accounted for $52 million. In 1978 teachers' salaries account for the spending of $150,900,000. Certainly we can attribute that increase in teachers salaries to t"#O things; first , the increase in salaries to teachers since 1972 and also the increase in the number of teachers.

Because we find that the total money for salaries to teachers has increased by 300 per cent, and certainly teachers salaries have not

June 5, 1978 Tape ~lo. 3922 • ),"}! - 2 ~!R. G. CROSS: increased by 300 per cent. Therefore there ~ust have been, and there has been, we know, an increase in the number of teachers since 1972. If we move on to the Department of Health, we find that in 1972, to the nearest million, the budget allocated $104 million, In 1978 it is $239 million.

In social services in '72, again to the nearest million, rounded off to the nearest million, $60 million was spent on social service~. !he increase from 1972 to 1978 has been $6 million because this present year in excess, just over $66 cillion is being spent in social services, So there the increase has not been phenominal. Certainly we know there has been an increase to the amount

June 5,1976 Tape Uo, 3 923 MR. CilDSS: that has Oeen paid to Social Service recipients since that time and I think taking that into consideration we can see that the increase in the nucber on Social Services has not increased appreciably over the last six years. In Hunicipal Affairs and Housing 1 the spending has gone from over $14 million to over $60 million this present year.

So here we see that there has been a tremencious spending and a tremendous increase in spending in the services s~ctor over the siA year period. but then when we go an to look at the resource development ,we find that in 1972 the increase, $7,833,200 was spent in fisheries,but this present budget this year has increased to in excess of $25 million­ $25,195,700.

Forestry and Asriculture-or Hines~Agriculture and Resources as it was called in 1972-attributed to t:•e spending of $16,535,000, In 1978,Forestry and Agriculture,putting Mines and Energy in Yith that department l~s it was in 1972,shows that ~here will be a spending of $62,904,000,again,percentage-wise,approximately 400 per cent of an increase, In Transportation and Communications in 1972 che gross spending was $41 million; in 1978 the gross spending will be $122 million or in excess of $122 million.

So if we total up the total amount spent in resources, in fisheries,forestry, agriculture, resources and transportation and communication,which is coupled with or to the resources because improved transportation certainly is an asset in development, we find that in 1972 in these four departments a total of $66 1 639,000 was spent but if we total the spending for 1978 in Fisheries, Hines and Energy, Forestry and Aariculture and Transportation and Communications we find that the increase, that the dollars spent is $220,650,300,again an increase of upwards of 350 per cent.

So I think and I feel from running through these figures and ~~mining them and surveying them and studying them that the emphasis at this point in time and for the past six years is being placed where it belongs, in the development of our resources and certainly in the creation

June 5,1978 Tape No. 3923 Ah-2 of new dollars. And now, ~~. Speaker, I want to speak for a few minutes, just a few brief minutes,on what is happening in the district of Bonavista North,

r:::oss: distr:l.ct. I uant to just outline "1. fc~' of t:.e ::1inzs t:M.t has hn.ppe~ed in t:te district: over t:te last: cout:lle of years <:.nd to say thut t:hc profires<:;,in r:.y opinion and in the opinion of ;:ulnJ of the people in the district th~t : ~~prcse~~,has been phenomenal T:v~::-e ::~ay be ;;eoplc l/10 differ f-oil' chat opinion, 1Jut cer-::ain.ly great pro;ress hrrs :::a!·.·zn rlace over the pn:.;t couple of years.

If •.:e lao:: to t!~e resource sector for ::1. ;;:orent <1gnir ,loo!·int; to a snokehouse has ~een built or renovated, I should say; a ~uilding ;;as 'oeen -renovated 6at served the purpose of a ~ait Cepot years ago but thet bait depot has been renovated inv6lved,but last :rco.r t'"tat smh.;house diC r.:nl:e a profit.

T:lis year,in fact right now,preparations are !'leing r.:ade to construct an icehouse certainly on t~e island" so that the fish t:ut the fishe!""tlen catch t!:ere can be p!"operly iced , and althougf.t in sotr.e cases the fish that are caught will be processed sowewhere. else,that somewhere else is in Valley- field in the district that I represent. Certainly the addition of an icehouse tilere t-rill icprove the quality of the fish that is caught.

""fhis prese:tt !Ti:-lter the fis~. plant in 1,'alleyfielrl again ~Jas expanried anc! tuo new cuttinz lines '*'ere installed. '!hat has created an additional forty jobs and certainly this is on?,oing ?regress that have token place additiona!. !}rogress over this year.'!:hat hn.ve Oeen ongoing O'J"!:r the last five or si:~ years. The f:!.sh plant in -2.1leyfield in the beginning when it HaS tal:en over by Beot:..uck ::'ish Procesr>ors ·.;as a salt fish O?eration 1but since 19~7 salt fish,nlthough it is salted and dried there,the plant has become a fresh fish operation as 1-1ell.

A fish r:-.ea.!. plant has been constructed, a crab plant corstruct:ed. a herring plant opened and now,lii-:e

Jur.e 5, 1~73 'l"" CP.OSS: I saiC,in t!-!.e past t·!inter t~e extension of the plant adding c~o more lines,creating additional jobs~and not only the additional jobs but t~is expansion certainly leads to nore jobs but it also prolongs,if you lil:e~t!te season and therefore nore jobs as well as a longer period of •'lark for the people who work there. So again this is proRress in the resource sector. Last ?rirlny evening t;hen ! .-!rrwe out to r:;y district,! drove over 09 per cent rrtvr:!:d road. T!1ere is :,ut one :ctile left of unpaved road surface :d the Bonavista ~:orth Loop Road in my district.

The boundaries of pavement is e~tcnded now into the Lunsden .uea and the final contract for t:le pavinz of thri :'1onavista ~:orth Loop !'.onJ has ;,een let. nver the post four years approxir.~tely

June 5, 1978, Tape 3925, Page 1 -- apb ~~. CROSS: 110 miles of road has been paved in that area. This is going to make, certainly, a great difference in the number of visitors and tourists that come to the area that I represent in this hon.House. There is no shortage of things for tourists to do in the area. I would like to say also that the branch to Valleyfield in the district is presently under upgrading and also the branch that leads to Newtown in the North district.

This year the short road to the fish plant and the government wharf in Valleyfield will be upgraded and paved and also the road to the marine centre 1 'Vhich is located in the town of Wesleyville. In the last couple of years there has been resource projects going ahead, namely, within the blueberry industry. We have in the last two years had four blueberry projects, I call them, within the district involving the clearing and burning of blueberry lands so that we can increase the blueberry yield and also create some new dollars.

I would say that two of these projects were funded by the provincial government and two were canada Works projects. Last year for ~,e first time blueberries were cleaned in the district, certainly creating much needed employment even though they were just jobs of a short-term nature but nevertheless improvement. Coming into the services within the district 1 certain phases of water and sewer are ongoing in the towns of Middle Brook, Dover and Trinity. Three new schools are presently under construction in the district that I represent.

There is a new elementary school that will serve the people in the communities of Middle Brook, Dark Cove and

June 5, 1978, Tape 3925, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSS: Gamba that will be opening this Fall. Also, a new elementary to serve the people of Dover, the children of Dover 1 will be opening sometime this coming Fall and an all-grade school is presently being constructed in Greenspond and that, I understand, will be ready for occupancy early in 1979. Since 1976 a new forestry building has been opened in the settlement of Dark Cove and a dental clinic has been opened in Gamba to serve the people of that area. Mr.

Speaker, I feel that much has been accomplished over the past two years and that much remains to be accomplished in the future. I can only say in closing my few remarks that much has taken place, there has been much progress and there has been much that has taken place in the district that I represent. Because when we look back only as late as last December, there were people ready to say that nothing was being done in the district that I represent. With these few remarks I will take my seat, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

June 5, 1978 Tape 3926 EC - 1 :-m.. H. ROWE: !:r. Speaker, this is the Sudget Speech. It was a long time coming. The menbers of the House had a long wait, ~aitinB to have an opportunity to say something concerning their districts and concerning the economy generally. It is the Sudget Speech, Sir, but it is a little like the Throne Speeches which we have had over the ?ast number of years as well. We know what the Throne Speeches for the last six or seven years in this Province have been.

Somebody characterized the Throne Speeches in Newfoundland over the past five or six years as the transference of bones from one graveyard to another, :rr. Speaker. After the first year, 1972, there ~ere some brave words uttered.

The people of the Province thousht that there was going to be some life, some muscle, some flesh in this government, some action, but it turned out, Sir, that the words uttered in the Throne Speech of 1972 were, in fact, dry and sterile bones and these bones, Sir, these dry bones have been dunped fran one Throne Speech into the next Throne Speech year after year after year for six or seven full years. No action, Sir~ Programmes, Sir, with the same liveliness as you would expect from dry and sterile bones. And now, Sir, we have the Budget Speech presented by the Minister of Finance.

And there ~as a new technique tried this time, ~r. Speaker. Rather than just du~ping these dry bones from one Throne Speech to another or from one Budget Speech to another, we have a new technique tried by the !linister of Finance and the Attorney General. What he decided to do this time, Sir, was to take these same dry, old bones and join them together much like a medical doctor would do with a skeleton~ join then together with string, Sir, and hold

June 5, 1973 Tape 39 26 EC - 2 HR. H. ROHE: these bones before the T.V. cameras which were in the House, ~r. Speaker, utter some ~umbo jumbo, utter some ~ore words, slick and very glib sounding words, rattle the skeleton, Sir, before the television cameras, rattle the same dry old bones again and try to convince the people of the Province about how lively, how energetic, how full of action this government is and this government's prograomes are. But, Sir, everybody in this Province knew long before the Budget Speech was brought down,and certainly knows now after this Budget Speech,that it was a skeleton.

Everybody knows that this govern:r.~ent, !!r. Speaker, is dead. The P.C. caucus is now being referred to, my bon. friend reminds me by his remark, as the P.C. carcass. The government, Sir, is dead and the party which the government represents in this House is dead -the P.C. carcass ~eets again.

However, the government, Sir, which has been through tlaick and thin now for the last number of months, reminds me of a sailor who is made cute and cunning by many shipwrecks; a sailor who hns a certain amount of liveliness, a certain amount of cuteness, a certain amount of cunningness, a certain amount of slyness brought about by the fact that he has survived many shipwr2cks.

And this government puts me in mind of that kind of an analogy or that kind of an image, because the ~inister of Finance did try to give the impression by cuteness and cunning, I suppose, tried to give the impression that the government ~as, in fact, lively and that the government did have some ideas to e~press. But, Sir, I had to tell the government - the Minister of Finance and the Premier - that unfortunately for them, the essence, the very essence of ~eing a successful con can, nr. Speaker, the essence of being a successful

June 5, 1973 Tape 3926 EC - 3 Ma. W. ROWE: confidence trickster, the essence of that is that the people you are dealins with do not knov that you are a con man, that the people you are dealing with have no ·idea that tricks and con artistry is being practiced on them. Once the people know, ~r. Speaker, once the would-be victims of a con man know that he is practicinG con artistry or trickery on then 1 then it ~akes no difference ho~ glib or how persuasive, apparently, superficially,

Ju~e 5, 1973 Tape :1o. 3927 MR. W. ROllE: or how good you may look on television, or how plausible your argument sounds, Sir, that makes no difference because once the people know that a person is a con artist then the jig is up and no matter how skillful or charming or persuasive the con man may be, there is no way he can any longer pull the wool over the people's eyes or peddle his wares to the people. And this is the same position, Hr. Speaker, that this present administration finds itself in now. It finds itself in that kind of a situation.

Every now and then it tries to be persuasive, tries to be skillful and charming in the way it presents itself to the public~ but the people are wise to their tricks and are wise to their attempts to pull the wool over their eyes. Let m~ give you one or two examples, Sir, from the Budget Speech here, of attempts which were made,I would say,to try to give the people an impression that all is not in fact ill, that all is not desperately bad. On page one, for example, the minister says, "It .can be said with absolute certainty that budgets brought before this han.

House particularly during the past three years, have demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt the determination of this government to manage responsibly the financial affairs entrusted to us." Now, Mr. Speaker, I will be saying something more broadly and generally and in sooe detail about the governnent's management of the economy a little later on. But just on the surface, Sir, first of all what an insult it is to the minister's former colleague, John Crosbie, now up in Ottawa, who was ~inister of Finance for several years in this House, and who brought in budgets - MR. DOODY: mt. W. ROWE: MR.

DOODY: Three years ago. And before. Who was the minister before that? Val Earle.

Ju~e 5, 1978 Tape :ro, 3927 "\l 'J ·'·' - - ~. W. RotVE: Val Earle, John Crosbie, Sir, that is the kind of a government it is, Sir. Wbat an insult, the grossest kind of an insult to John Crosbie, 1 think I will send him a copy too of Hansard, Sir, as the member for Grand Falls (Xr. Lundrig~~) always threatens to do, to indicate to him the grossest kinds of insults thrown at him by this government, "Particularly in the last three years the government has demonstrated its determination to manage responsibly the affairs of the Province" Do not insult your cousin. 'fit. W.

ROWE: -giving the clear impression, Sir, that when Mr. Crosbie was :1inister of Finance, or Val Earle was Hinister of Finance, that there was no demonstration of the determination to manage responsibly the financial affairs, and I ;.:auld agree vith that, ~r. Speaker. I ~auld agree that there was desperate irresponsibility three years ago and prior to that in the managa~ent of our economy.

What I would dispute, Sir, is that over the past three years there h~s been any change, that there has somehow been a responsible attitude by this government, and as I say, duri&g the course of my few brief remarks I ~ill be making some statements in that regard and providing some evidence. Certainly that stater.ent flies in the face of the speech by the han. me:nber for St. John's East (Nr. t.'m.

Harshall), w"ho is clear, Sir, clear in his feeling about w-hat has happened over the past six or seven years when he admits candidly, as a supporter of this government, that the Province is on the rocks and it is bankrupt and we have a staggering public debt which is a millstone around the neck of this Province and threatens to drag it down irretrievably; that is •jhat he thinks, Sir• Well, we will get to whom he blames it on, we will get to that, Hr. Speaker, a little later on.

June 5, 1978 !ape ~to. 3927 )JR. •,.;. P.OWE: A little further on, Sir, a little furthe~ on, just listen to this, the }finister of Fin::mc.e, Sir, in his usual way, "It has been a sign of encouragement to me, as the recently appointed !linister of Finance, that we have received the support of the taxpayers of ~ewfoundland and Labrador for the fiscal measures we have taken," Now, Hr.

Spe.aker, I hope that if the han. member, who is a good layYer, ever represents me in court, that he seeks more solid evidence to support my ~ase than any evidence that he may have seen or has in his possession that the measures taken by this government are supported by the taxpayers of Ne\.l'foundland and Labrador. He \:ill not get in, Mr.

Speake!', to matters which we have already talked about during the Interim Supply Bill,for example, but a government, Sir, which goes out of its ~ay to hit the people who are least able to pay in this Province, should not claim the support, Sir, of the bulk of the taxpayers of this Pl:'ovince.

The CBC poll, Sir, an independent poll of the CBC indicates that the only segment of society in Newfoundland and Labrador today which still has a lingering admiration for that hon. crowd over thel:'e, Sir, are the people who are making the top one pel:' cent of the money in this Province, the well off people, people making $30,000, $40,000, or $50,000 or $60,000 or $100,000 from their

June 5, 1978, Tape 3928, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.RON'E: businesses, or from their professions or in other ways, Sir, they continue to have some kind of a lingering admiration for this crowd, Mr. Speaker, this han. crowd across the House here. Every other segment of society, Sir, is at least two to one in their cond~~ation Of this government's fiscal measures and in many cases, three and four to one against the measures taken by this administration. Mr. Speaker, just take this little example I have chosen at random as I looked through the budget again this morning before corning up to the House this afternoon.

Listen to this on page (3): "Many proposed current and capital progranunes which were assessed as necessary by the Government of the Province just a few short years ago may no longer be necessary in light of more realistic expectations." Mr. Speaker, have you, as a learned gentleman and as a very educated man, has Your Honour ever heard in Your Honour's life up to this point a sentence which is so full of double-talk and gobbledygook as that sentence?

Programmes, Sir, which were looked at by the government two or three years ago and were said to be necessary - hospitals, for example, and other various essential services - are no longer considered to be necessary, Mr. Speaker. I remember Nixon's press secretary, r-<-:.atever his name was - Ziegler, was it? Ron Ziegle~-?who was caught in an outright lie one time before the press corps of the ~'ihite House, caught in an outright lie, an untruth and in order to get out of it, ~rr. Speaker, he comes out and has to face to say that his statement of such and such a date is no longer operative.

Tell a lie one day and come back the next day and say, 'Well, that is all right, that statement

June 5, 1978, Tape 3928, Page 2 -- apb HR. W.N.Rm'lE: is no longer operative, here is the statement today.' Mr. Speaker, that kind of a statement there, "Many proposed programmes which were assessed as necessary by the government a few short years ago may no longer be necessary," the minister, Sir, should have stood up and said, ~The goVernment's statements about necessary programmes are no longer operative.

The statement we made two or three years ago in order to win elections, or in order to deceive the people of the Province are now no longer operative:'A Ziegler, Sir, a Ron Ziegler press statement of the worst order, and we have seen, Sir, on many occasions how this is a breach of faith and a breach of commitment by this government. MR. NOLAN: Shame! Shame~ MR.

W.N.ROWE: Another example, Sir, of double-think and double-speak coming out of the mouths of the government on page (6) of this famous budget document: "If we are to hasten our march" says the minister, "if we are to hasten our march forward we must as a people keep before us at all times the challenge of maintaining the work ethic for which all Newfoundlanders are so justly famous." The work ethic, Mr. Speaker!

Last Summer I remember driving around the Province in the month of July, other members will re.'Tlember as well, the Premier in one of those visionary statements he utters, under the influence of what I do not know, these inspirational statements, came out and said that the people who are on welfare, the people who are on unemployment insurance in this Province are there, Sir, because they do not want to work, they want to be on unemployment insurance, they want to be on welfare.

June 5, 1978, Tape 3928, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: would say, Sir, that the Premier's statement of last Summer is much closer to this government's philosophy of government that this gobbledygook, this double-talk that we saw in the Minister of Finance's Budget Speech a few weeks ago. Because, Sir, this government is a government which completely lacks any compassion whatsoever when it comes to the disadvantaged people in our society. Thirty of forty thousand unemployed, officially 1

June 5. 1978 Tape 3929 EC - 1 MR. \1. ROWE: upwards of 20 per cent unemployed officially, and in spite of these brave words uttered by the Minister of Finance, the Premier of the Province comes out and states that able-bodied people on welfare or on unemployment insurance are there because they want to be there, because they do not want to work. !hat is the philosophy, Sir, of this government. MR. F. ROWE: Over 50 per cent of those under 25 in the work force are unemployed. MR. W. ROWE: Right.

Not one minister of that government, Sir, I would venture to say, believes for one minute the statement by the Minister of Finance about 11 keeping before us at all times the challenge of maintaining the work ethic"- not one of them, Mr. Speaker.

I would say each one of them - and certainly their actions and their programmes indicate this abundantly clearly - each one of them believes rather, I would submit, Sir, the philosophy expressed last summer by the Premier of this Province, and who would be expressing it today if it were not for the fact that there was such an outrage against the callousness of that kind of a statement in a province where a government has allowed unemployment to run rampant. AN HON. MEMBER: the Premier does not need to - (inaudible) MR. W. ROWE: !he Premier is setting a good example, is he not, of the challenge of the work ethic.

AN RON. MEMBER: Yes, Sir, one day a week~ MR. W. ROWE: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I just quoted one or two; there are many others as you go through the document, but the document is replete, it is filled

June 5, 1978 Tape 3929 EC - 2 MR. W. ROWE: with indications and instances of double-talk, double-think, mumbo jumbo, meaningless words, Mr.

Speaker, all of which do not represent any philosophy of government whatsoever, but merely represent an attempt to once more con the people, fool the people. nut as I said, Sir, you can use all the skillful language you want to, you can use all the mumbo jumbo you want to, but once the people, once your intended victims are wise to your con man efforts, then no amount of persuasiveness, no amount of charm, no amount of words, convincing and persuasive as they may be, Sir, can do the trick anymore, because the game is over. The people now know that these nice sounding words, these sweet smelling words, Hr.

Speaker, are not true. Nobody, Mr. Speaker, in this Province~ no person in this Province is duped by this nursery tale called Budget, 1978, no one! It is time, Sir - and t agree with the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) in this regard - it is time, Sir, for brutal frankness as far as the financial condition of this Province is concerned~ brutal. Truth and honesty and frankness about where ~e are and vhere we are going economically and financially in Newfoundland and Labrador - it is the duty of everyone here, Sir, to tell it like it is -the hue and cry of the early 1970s, tell it like it is.

Call a spade a spade. And, Sir, the duty that I have, and members of this House of Assembly who are speaking their own minds have in calling a spade a spade, have to admit in exercising this duty that the present Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, Sir, have put this Province on the rocks financially. Why cover it up with sweet sounding words? This Province, financially speaking, Sir, is on the rocks. Essential services cannot

June 5, 1978 Tape 3929 EC - 3 MR. W. ROWE: even be coped with or dealt with in any adequate fashion. This Province, Sir, is financially on the rocks, and it is that administration that put this Province on the rocks. And that is the monumental task facing any government which takes over from this particular administration, Sir, to try to get this Province off the rocks. Because, Sir, we are on the rocks. We are on the rocks, Sir, as sure and certain as - what was his name?

Captain William Martin, I believe, of the Florizel - we are on the rocks as sure as Captain Martin put the Florizel on the rocks off Cappahayden there many years ago, Sir. This Province is high and dry, as my colleague from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) is muttering behind me here, high and dry

June 5, 1978 !3. W.;;. FOU!:: on the rod:s. And it ,.,-ould be n token of true and honest dealing with the people if the )1inister of Finance~ Sir, and the Premier of this Province had come out and fairly and squarely indicated to the people ~here ve are :inancially, on the roc!:s,and how they proposE:d to try to get the ship of state, the Province)off the roc.Ys nnd once ~ore in some kind of a econonic: deep 'later.

You onlv ~ave to look at !:Ome of t:-:e figures ?resented by t:-te 3udget itself, Sir • The government is convicted out of its own mouth when the gove~ment puts forward some of the facts and figures,which they do not explain, which the:t do not say or inrticate to the ;'leople ~.·hnt they ::~ean,:J"" uhich tbe·r a.re obliz,aterl I suppose by finnncial necessity in ordi<!r :::o borrow ~~ney to put in their Budget document. If you look at them and analyze them, Sir. you find that the evidence points clearly to t:-te fact that thP.

Province is not on the brink of bankruptcy, as t.tas the hue and cry back in 1971 ,but down in the very gulf of :,ankruptcy. And I do not want to hear the !1inister of ::'inance stand up, Sir, 'during <;!1is riebete o-: else~,:here or at any other tine and say 'Oh, what a violation of patriotism l)i! - 1 and duty the Leader of .. t:1e Opposition is now bvclv.;;d in ,calling our Province bankrupt, t'r. Speaker'.

Wnat a thing to say! ~~. ll.~. !tOW'E: This Province, Sir, is in desperate financial straits and it is no good trying to bury our l1eads .!.n the sand or paper over the grent.big~gaping cracks as the :"~i:tister of Finance and the Premier have tried to do. Look at ex.~ibit one, Sir, on page 25 of !the 3udget, "Gross Provincial Product, percentage change from 1974 to 1975 was 12.6 per cent, from 1975 to 1976 was 11.4 r>er cent, from 1976 to 1?77, ~:r. Speaker, dropped to about 6.8 per cent,about half of the previous year,and I would venture to say, "r. Speaker, t!1at this year it t-::!.11 Crop even further again.

Ju:1e 5, 1973 :ape 33 3'l A constant decline in our Gross Provincial Product. The saree thing,1otal Personal Inco~e.in the sace exhibit, ~lr. Speaker; 18 per cent change upwards from 1974 to 1975, 1!1 per cent from 1975 to 1976, 7.9 per cent from 1976 to 1977. ,\gain an unmistakable trend, ~~r. Speaker, dow-nwards, not upwards, but downwards. Per r.apita Personal Incon'.e, the same thing again ·1 16.6 per cent in 1974, 1:'- per cent in 1975 and in between 1976 and 19771 7 per cent change in Per Capita Personal Income.

Again t~e unmistakable drift is there, Sir, down. ~~ployment~3.~ per cent cha:1Qe l:let'::een 1975 o.nd 1976, a 1.? per cent chanr;c in employment, Sir, less thor 2 per cent from 1?75 to 1977.Again an unmistab.ble Cecline downwards in emplo}..:tent. The only thin~>, that is up, :·rr. Speaker, is the rner.rploynent -ate itself which ~1as shoHn a change from 1"74 nf lJ per cent U!' to just :.1bout 16 per cent in 1977 and onwardi up•,.,rard..:ar.ain in 1?78, \.'ages and Salaries, Vr.

Speaker;ngain a constant decline from 1974 from 17 per cent down to 14 per cent to 6.8 p~r cent in 1977. o\nd, ~ir, the c:.ea!'eSt inCica::!on as to the drift of this government and the drlft of our Province financially and econowically is given in this Exhibit one, private and Public Investment in millions of dollars; :rom 1974 to 1975 there was an incrense of just over J per cent; in 1975 tlo 1176, Sir, an increase of about 10 rer cent, a :r:oderate increase uhat one expect. from a starent cconor.:y, a very moCerace increase.

And then, Sir, in 1976 and 1977,frivate and Public !~vestment actually dec~eased fro~ the year before by over 3 per cent, showing, Sir, clearly and categorically shoving the lack of faith and lack of truSt by private investors in this Province at the present time and by the lnd: of faith an;! lacl: of trust of the government

June 5,197J Tape No. 3931 A.H-1 HR.W.ROWE: itself as far as invescment in capital works and so on is concerned, an actual decrease, Sir, from one year to another. There was Sl,07l,OOO,OOO in 1976 and $1,035,000,000 in 1977 and t would venture to say, Sir, that this year in 1978 we will see either stagnation or an actual decrease again. The clearest indication of a government which is not on the brink of bankruptcy, Sir, but is in the very valley, down in t~e very trough ,of bankruptcy_ as a government trying to lead this Province. Exhibit (J. Hr.

Speaker, of the same budged document indicates again ~nere we are headed. Exhibit LI is the Estimated Provincial and Federal Revenues for 1978-1979 1 the present financial year that we are now in. !£ you compare, Mr. Speaker, the increase in revenue to the Province from Ottawa, it increased to about $437-438 million in 1978 which is about a $68 million increase over last year, money coming into the coffers of this Province from Uttava sources, if you compare that, Sir, to the increase in the provincial tax sources and other provincial sources which was only $45 million, Mr.

Speaker, again you can see the unmistakable tendency and the unmistakable drift of this provincial government.14hile the economy of Canada as bad as it is has increased by $68 milion~the revenue from federal sources received by the provincial government, the provincial economy and the tax sources, the provincial tax sources and other provincial sources~yield only $45 millionj Mr. Speaker, even though on any kind of a comparable normal increase they should be about equal, roughly equal,or the provincial increase should be even greater because we are dealing with a slightly larger sum of money.

But no, Sir, the increase in revenue from the Government oi Canada is greater, much greater, be~ween one and one-half and t~o times as great as the increase from purely provincial sources last year of say about $45 million. This indicates clearly, Sir, now our economy in the Province is lagging and again, Sir, it points out where this Province is

June 5,1970 Tape ii'o, 3931 Ah-2 H.4..W •. d.DSE: he3ded. And no number of ~rave words, no .at:~ount of political mumbo jumbo or slick verbiage, I suppose concocted by HcConnell Advertising Agencies for the government, no aoount of all of that stuff, Sir, can cover up taat fact. And another very serious fact, l·!r, Speaker, as to the political philosophy and the financial philosophy of this government is show~ that all provincial taxes without exception are bringing in more revenue this year to the provincial coffers with the exception, Xr.

Speaker, "W"ith the exception of the corporation income tax, -which has in fact decreased from last year to this year, $24.5 million last year and $23,5 million this year. :<lr, Speaker, I do not know what that indicates to Your Honour but it indicates one of two things to me; one is that this government's fiscal and economic policies are such that tney are brea~ng corporations in :his Province and industries ·.;rilich are operating as corporations or, Sir, and I believe this is found to be the case from the budget,the only t~x relief afforded to anybody in this Province this year Yas not to the man making $7,000 or $8,000 a year, or the large families looking for dental care or looking for a break on the school books, Sir, the only tax break given by this government in a year of tremendous austerity and financial adversity, Sir, is given to the corporations, corporations, Sir, who did not need the help because it is given to them on a braak on their profits, they are given more profits.

Those who are less profitable ~auld not get any break from these tax breaks ~hich the government has given corporations, but it is significant, Sir, as a matter of philosophy to know,and the people of this Province should know, that the only decrease in the amount of taxes from last year to this year in all the tax sources, retail sales tax, personal income t~~. gasoline tax,

June 5, 1978 Taoe 3932 PK - 1 Mr. H. Rowe: mining taxes and ray a lti es, insurance company taxes, all of these taxes. Sir, most of which effect the so-called little man in our society, all these indicate a higher yield this year over last year, except for the corporate income tax ~<Jhich this government, this Tory government, Sir, has given a break to as far as the corporate entities in this Province are concerned. One ather example of a source of revenue is the petrolum exploration source, Sir, which is shown to be down from $200,000 last year to $26,000 this year.

And I attribute that, Sir I hope it does go up now that a number of companies have indicated they are going to be drilling and so on. I do not know, would like to hear the minister on this - but I attribute that drop, Mr.

Speaker, to the fact that the Minister of Mines and Energy while consistently hewing to this hard line against the ail companies, I believe, by his arrogant attitude, and from what I can understand from talking to other government ministers and so on throughout Canada who have been at the same bargaining table as this han. minister, most of the fact that companies decided not to come into this Province to drill for offshore oil this year, Sir, was that they were put off by what they perceived to be a government, not a government which was bargaining in a hard-Rased way on behalf of the people of the Province, but a government, Sir, which was arrogant in its dealings 1>1ith these oil comoanies , and sort of a grab-all type of government, a government which gave them an indication that they were not prepared to be reasonable or sensitive to various needs of the oil companies themselves.

But, Sir, ! \Vi11 not go into that any further; we will have a lot of opportunity to do that. I just want to draw this philosophical point to everybody 1 s attention that the only tax which has gone down this year is not the retail sales tax, which comes off the backs of the peop1e.,or the income tax~\ihich broadly is paid by the large middle class in our society, Sir, but the corporate income tax is gone down because this government saw fit to give a break to what I would say are, in many cases. their corporate friends. the corporate friends of this government.

June 5, 1978 Tape 3932 PK - 2 r4r. W. Rowe: r~r. Speaker, the next exhibit which gives a horrifying picture of what is going on in this Province is Exhibit Y , which is entitled the Public Sector Debt, what we know as the public debt in this Province. The total public debt is shown in Exhibit V to be $2,400,000,000, direct and indirect debt for 1978 by this small Province of less than 600,000. That same Exhibit V, Mr.

Speaker, and I notice that the Minister of Finance was not bragging about this in his speech, that same Exhibit Y on page 29 of the Budget Speech shows that the public debt of this Province has gone up by well over $1 billion, a thousand million dollars, in the four years since 1974; $1 billion, Mr. Speaker, in four years, over $1 billion, more, Mr.

Speaker, more of an increase in the public debt of this Province in four years~ from 1974 to 1978, than the total public debt run up by that profligate spendthrift government, referred to bY the members on the other side~ in t\'lenty-three years from 1949 to 1971 or 1972.

June 5 , 1978 T<:tpe :ro. 3933 MR. W. ROW'£: There vas $900 million of a debt at that time, if my figures are correct. Something under $1 billion. XR. F. ROWE: bankruptcy then. XR.. J. CARTER: ~. II. ROWE: Crosbie said we were on the verge of On projects committed, Projects committed, Sir. The hon. ~ember can speak now when he gets his opportunity. r am sure ~e will hear. We can expect objectivity and rational and :easonable comments from that hon. member. Savoury patch. XR. w.

ROWE: But, Sir, the brutal fact remains that in a four year period, from. 1974 to 1978, the public debt of thi3 Province went up by well over $1 billion; in four years, oore of a public debt than \:as incurred by the administration which preceeded this government in the twenty­ three years from C~nfederation to 1972. That is a fact, Xr. Speaker. Not a fact that has ~een braeged about or boasted about by the Minister of Finance, but certainly, Sir, one which the people of this Province need to know. What, Mr. Speaker, in the name of all that is decent and honest, what, :·tr.

Speaker, has this government spent $1.5 billion on since they took over in 1972? What, Xr. Speaker? SOME "HON. ~!E1IDERS: Oh 1 oh ~ }IR. \<". ROW"E: But, Sir, I choose to speak in silence and not be interrupted by any han. member or any elongated baboon or anyone else, Hr. Speaker. ~R. SPEAK:ER: interruption. NR. W. ROWE: The han. member has the right to speak without !he han. member will have an opportunity to speak about Liberal mistakes, or Liberal commitments, or Liberal promises or Liberal anything else. The simple fact, ~r.

Speaker, and this is what the people of the Province are demanding, what happened to Sl billion and $1.5 billion, Sl,5DO,OOO,OOO, Sir, spent or squandered or thrown away or squirreled away or

June 5, 1978 Tape No. 3933 >S. 'J. ROW"E: Hhatever it :::1.ight have been, Sir, in the six years that this government has been in office. What happened to the ooney? To hear that hon. member for St. John's East (Xr. W. Marshall) stand up the other day, Friday, Sir, and try to blame the civil servants of this Province, :o get up and say, "The reason ;.;e are in such financial difficulty now, we are in such serious economic straits now is because the civil servants zave the government bad advice, ~r. Speaker. That is •.Jhy •11 ~·!r.

Speaker, •,;hat a scurillous way to try to support a government which is bankrupt financially and intellectually, try to blame it on the civil ser~ants. t..'ho are they going to blame next, ~r. Speaker? \Then the government got in power first in 1972 they had a great time with their witch hunting. As a matter of fact, the member for St. John's East (Mr. W. Marshall) got himself a nickname during that period of time. !<?., NOLAN: !<?.. W. ROWE: He had his own broom. 'Witch Hunt Willie' they called him, not a name that I would call him, Sir. I have respect for the man. That is what they called him.

So they spent the first two or three years of their term of office in bl~~ing the former administration, Then when that wore a little tiny bit thin and the people of the Province t.J'ere no longer disposed to accept that nonsense, :1r. Speaker, then they lashed out at the Government of Canada. "It is not our fault that nothing is being done or that the Province is bankrupt, or we have no money, or industries are going down the drain left, right and centre; it is the Government of Canada that is causing all this, ~r. Speaker.• That was the Opposition.

June 5 1978 Tape :ro. 3933 :1:-! - 3 :.m. w. Ror..rr:: And now, lashing out in their desperation, the::r put out this bellwhether here,as they did in the scandalous :-toore - Dobbin agreement, they put out this bellwhether to see how that would fly. 11 See if we can get away with blaming the civil servants for another two or three years, }mybe that ~~11 wash with the rl'et-tfoWldland people. The fact that $1.5 billion, $1,500,000,000 is apparently down the drain in this Province over the past six years, we try to blame that on bad advice from civil servants:' Uhat next, >!r. Speaker? }1r. Speaker, just to refer to one other exhibit in this tremendous document here, Exhibit VII which is a

summary of Current Account Sxpenditure by function, it is called, '""Jhere the money goes, 11 in baby talk so people can understand it. The servicing, Sir, of this

June 5, 1978, Tape 3934, Page 1 -- apb M.!L W .N. ROI'/E: public debt I spoke about 1 $2.5 billion, the servicing of this public debt is costing this Province this year $164 million, $163.7 million rounded off to Sl64 million this year, in 1978 - 79, and will, of course, continue to be as high and continue to go,up over the next number of years. Mr. Speaker, the servicing of our public debt in this Province in this year is the third highest expense of government, third only to Education and llealth, $164 nillion through out t~1e window before everything else, the third highest expenditure.

After 1!ealth and fducat:ion, or 2ducation and !1ealt:1 to put it in their proper order, then comes the servicing of the public debt. In 1971, Sir, 1972, when this government took over the debt charges at that time were $44 million, $44 million, Mr. Speaker. And at that time, in 1971-72, the servic~ng of the public debt was the sixth highest expense in government by function. And since there are only eight or nine functions which are outlined in this exhibit, Fxhiblt V!I, just about every other function of government had more money spent on it than the servicing of the public debt.

Now, Sir, we have arrived, under the tender mercies of this administration over the past six years, we have arrived at the point where the servicing of our debt alone, a $2.5 billion debt, the $2,500,000,000 debt,is the third highest expenditure and it is taking 15.5 per cent, or represents 15.5 per cent of all expenditures, Sir, nearly 16 per cent of all expenditures. Now, Mr. Speaker, I remember being in the government seven or eight years ago when we were supposed to be bankrupt and being told by very concerned public servants and so on that once you started

June 5, 19i8, Tape 3934, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: to reach the level of fifteen or sixteen or seventeen or eighteen or twenty per cent, that range, ~tt. Speaker, then anything could happen as far as the government's credit on the bond markets of the world was concerned.

And now, Sir, we have reached the point where 16 per cent,nearly, of our expenditure is being thrown out the door on servicing our public debt where it is the third largest expenditure, 16 per cent, Sir, which is undoubtedly causing eyebrows to rise everywhere in the financial markets of the world, as they wonder whether this Province can, in fact, stagger on on a year to year basis. HR. NOLAN: • Alex' does not believe that. He would not be able to live with that. HR. W.N.ROWE: A government, Mr.

Speaker, which in the eyes of most credit giving agencies as far as bond market credit is concerned and so on, a government, Sir, a Province which is somewhere between a stagger and a sprawl, a government and a Province which has lost its equilibrium. And that is what the tender mercies, as I say, of this government have brought our Province over the past six years or so. The 1978-79 debt charges, Mr. Speaker, of which I am speaking are 1 about twice as much as all expenditure on natural resources, agriculture, trade, industry and tourism put together.

In other words, Sir, the money which is going out on the dead to pay for past extravagances.

June 5, 1978 Tape 3935 EC - 1 HR. W. ROWE: We do not knov where the moneyhas gone. Has it gone in people's pockets? Where nas the money gon~. the 1~ billion~ We knov where some of ithas gone and ve will get around to that afterwards. We can account for several hundred millions in three or four lunatic programmes of this government which I will speak of in a moment or tva, but, Sir, vherehas the rest gone?

Yet the fact is that this money, $1~ billion borrowed since 1972, Sir, and the servicing of vbich is on the dead, this amount of money is twice as much as all expenditure on our resource and our industries, all the areas of the economy, of economic development, vhich produces nev dollars for our economy. And ve talk develop our about this great thrust, tremendous thrust, natural resources, get an industrial base going, get tourism going, get fisheries going - do all that, Mr. Speaker, and what are the simple facts of the matter?

After six or seven years of misadministration by this government the servicing of the public debt costs twice as much on a yearly basis as all the monies expended on our natural resources and on our industrial development and our tourism - $164 million. AN HON, HEMBER: MR. W. ROWE: And hov much was it in 1971? Forty-four million, Sir. The Minister of Finance is a man. Sir. for whom I had infinite respect. I chose him and he chose me, I suppose, in a vay when I first got into the articling of law back in 1966.

I learned a lot under him then and I learned a lot vben he vas in the Cabinet before he decided to take a walk, before he decided to purchase himself a skateboard, Sir, and whip back and forth across the House for a while. And so I know, from knowing that

June 5, 1978 Tape 3935 EC - 2 gentleman,that it must pain him, it must hurt him, it must tear his conscience to shreds to know, Sir, that he has joined up with a crew, with a government, an han. crew, I should say, who have so misspent and misused the wealth of this Province, the taxes of this Province and the other sources of revenue of this Province over the past six or seven years. It must kill him, Sir, to have to get up and put a bold face on it, to get up there with brass-fronted impudence and say, 'We are really doing a great job, Hr.

Speaker, running this Province,' and to know in his heart of hearts that his colleagues have run the Province into,the ground - they have run the government into the ground. gone, Sir, she is on the rocks. She is I remember, and I do not think I am divulging any confidences, I remember a couple of conversations a number of us used to have back in 1968 or 1969, and then he showed his concern about the financial viability of the government, as did we all, when our public debt was $900 million, when our servicing was $44 million a year on that public debt.

We used to wring our hands and say, 'Gosh, ! hope that we can pull the government out of this nose-dive. 1 And now, Sir, he has had to preside cheek by jowl with the Premier of the Province, Sir, who will go down in history as having presided over the greatest extravaganza in the history of any province of Canada. He has to sit there, Sir, and then in the television lights get up and~as I say, put on the brass-fronted impudence and say boldly and brazenly that the Province is in great shape. I hope my words do not hurt his feelings, Sir, but the truth does have to come out.

And from just looking at the minister across the House ! know he knows the government is finished. He knows that he is finished in

June 5, 1978 MR. II. ROllE: AN HON. llEMBER: HR. W. ROWE: Tape 3935 EC - 3 politics, and the rest of them. Just hanging on. And what they are doing, Sir, now? ! suppose they get some sense of heroics out of the fact that this last ditch effort of theirs - they are hanging on, they know they are finished. They know they are going to be driven into the water,so to speak, so let us burn our bridges behind us anyway, let us be like the Spartans, Sir, in Thermopylae. AN HON. MEMBER: HoratiO at the bridge. MR. W. ROWE: Yes, or Horatio at the bridge, Sir.

Let us put on a last ditch effort and we will all go down on the sword. AN HON. MEMBER: My party, right or wrong. MR. w. ROWE: But, Mr. Speaker, in the meantime it is the Province that is suffering.

A government, Sir, which gives every indication to me and everyone ! have spoken to of being a gigantic machine, Sir, operated by pygmies~ a gigantic machine, Sir, that not one minister over there knows the overall operation of, each of them buried in his own little bailiwick, his own little dukedom or his own little department, Sir, a gigantic machine, Sir, operated by pygmies, short sighted pygmies at that, each one only able to see what is before his very eyes. !n the meantime the machine is going to wrack and ruin, falling apart, rusting out, and each little pygmy, Sir, operating his own little aspect, turning this little screw and everything going to wrack and ruin.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at some of the more brilliant ventures. one or two of the more Let us look at

Ju:1e 5 1 "~7S ""'{ - 1 brillinnt adventures or ventures of this ;overni'lent whic!i. ~as caused such an increase in the public debt over the last nW!l_ber of years. l.Je can account for some of the ~oney, several hundred million Collars~ but several hundred million dollars, ~ir.

Speal-:er, I defy anybody :!.=;. t1liS Province to say t:here it is gone. ·~r! only knows wh:;re some of the rr:.one·: t:wt has Ocen l:iorrove.d by this :;overntlent has gone, Hhere it has finally reached. t.'e are finding some of it,Sir. \noth~r indication tl;,ere ~ot!av hy ':'r'J ~on, friend,uho ~Jill be disclosing this in good tir.:e ,of another ~alf r.1illion doJ.1.ar rip-off by this govenrr:ent and t:oeir fric.nrls, Sir. ':hen he sets <l.ll the facts and fiAures tor,ether, he '4'ill put it on :;::e ta!1le of the tTouse.Another \;::tlf ~:!.lJ.ion c'o!lo.rs, "r.

Sren!-:er, ' .:1 hn.lf :::illion dollars of t!1e ?ui:: lie 1 s l"lOnev ripper! off by :"riends of this ;;overnn:ent crit~ t:-:e active connivance of this government. A:1.d Hhen he gets an opoortu..··lity - Conspiracy arainst t~e public treasury, A cons?ir:1cy against tlte public treasury, a :~reach of trust, a flagrant a":lttse of confir!ev_ce ,naMe it uhat you "'ill, call it qhat you t-rill, Sir, it has beer practiced by t~is governr.ent. :1"_, r. ?GHE: It is so comrr.on 1:1lace now it .is Yot! cannot even raise a p;i;; anynore.

There ·.,;as a t:it'.e, ?-'r, Speaker, ·,.,hen a ':'talf rdllion dollar rip-off would ~ave caused the hon. nember for St. John's East ('rr. W. •rnrshnll) to walk across t:1e !•ouse or leave :tis ca:Jinet or put rrivate rr:ec::.er's r.:oticns r10t'n loo~:inf, for inveGti~e.tions, It doc