Manitoba Hansard — 8 June 2000 (Sitting 42B, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-42b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 42B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 8, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Rob! in Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

2327 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 8, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today from the Souris School 43 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Glen Wallman and Mrs. Theresa O'Brien. The school is iocated in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer). Also in the gallery we have from College St. Jean Baptiste 8 Grades 11 and 12 students under the direction of Madame Michelle Gatin. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. * (13:35) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Radiation Therapists Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): We have seen time and time again the broken election promises by this New Democratic Government. We heard during the election campaign that if the NDP Government was elected they would end hallway medicine in six months. We know, Mr. Speaker, that that has not happened. That is a broken promise.

We heard that they were going to open 138 permanent new beds should they be elected, and we know that promise has been broken. We heard that they were going to hire 100 new nurses immediately if they were elected. We know that that promise has been broken. In fact. the nursing shortage has gone from 700 to 1100 in the short time that the New Democratic Government has been in power. So we have seen, time and time again, the promises that they made during the election campaign have not been lived up to. They have not fulfilled those promises.

Again in November, this Minister of Health promised to bring the wait lists for cancer treatment, radiation treatment, down to four weeks within six to eight months. Well, it is seven months after that announcement was made, and we see the wait lists ten to twelve weeks. So here is another promise that has been broken. I know that members of the Government are very sensitive because they have not lived up to their commitments, and that is why they might be making so much noise from their seats.

We know that Alberta and other provinces are actively recruiting radiation therapists and other health care professionals right here in our

2328 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 province, a clear indication that one of their selling points is that the taxes are lower in those other provinces, the income taxes are lower. Now that radiation therapists in Manitoba know that they are the highest-taxed people across the country, what can this Minister of Health say to those radiation therapists to try to keep them here in our province? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): The Member was so wrong in her statements I do not even know where to begin to try to answer this in response. Mr.

Speaker, using the same figures that the former government utilized for a number of nurse vacancies, the equivalent numbers when we came into office were 700; it was then down to 600 using equivalent to equivalent, because we always use the same figures the former government used. The Member is trying to screw things around for her own political advantage. With respect to hallway medicine, we have a report of a national body that says we have done better on hallway medicine than any other jurisdiction in the country.

With respect to radiation therapists, we have hired five new ones, and we are hiring the five from the class for a total of ten. And finally, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. Cancer Treatment Waiting Lists Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): No matter what the Minister of Health tries to tell Manitobans, Manitobans know that there are still people in hallways. Even the nurses' union indicates that there is a shortage of 1100 nurses today in the province of Manitoba. So maybe the Minister of Health should take note and attempt to address the issue and be honest with Manitobans.

We have seen many, many broken promises by this government in the time that they have been in office. What does the Minister of Health say to those cancer patients, that he promised would have only a four-week wait period by this time in his mandate, that are still waiting 10 to 12 weeks for cancer treatment? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I thank the Member for that question because it allows me-Mr.

Speaker, as I recall from the last numbers I saw, the wait of time for cancer treatment in this province is half of what it was at this time last year when the Member opposite was sitting around the Cabinet table. When we came to office, we put in place a program to send patients down to the States, something members opposite refused to do that decreased the lists in half for the benefit of all Manitobans, and that is why the lists are down to half of what they were. We did something that they did not do, even though they had a recommendation to do that, and they refused to do it.

So that is what we have done. and that is why the lists are half of what they were. Some Honourable Members: Oh. oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:40) Radiation Therapists Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker. I wonder who Manitobans are to believe. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for RusselL on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, we have been asking the Government to be truthful with us.

The Leader, the Premier of the province just shouted across the way that in fact our party could not handle the truth, admitting that they do not tell the truth. I ask you to tell this government to tell the truth to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I believe you will note

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2329 carefully that the Member did not have a point of order. He was not even close to having a point of order. I certainly did say that they could not handle the truth. We give it day after day after day, and they still cannot handle it when we provide it in this Chamber. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order, the Honourable Member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mrs. Mitchelson: No, I have only asked two. Mr. Speaker: Are you going back? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Yes, third question. Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether Manitobans should believe Dr. Schacter who says the wait lists are 10 to 12 weeks today, or they should believe the Minister of Health who is telling us that things are significantly better. In November. when they made the announcement about changes to the cancer treatment program, the Minister of Health said that the wait lists at I 0 weeks were unacceptably high. They were not acceptable to his government. They would be fixed within 6 to 8 months. Dr.

Schacter is telling Manitobans today that the wait lists for radiation for cancer treatment are 1 0 to 12 weeks. So I think most Manitobans would choose to believe the expert in our CancerCare treatment programs than they would the Minister of Health, who tries to spin this issue for his own political purposes. My question for the Minister of Health-and I will table the recruitment letter from Alberta that indicates that radiation therapists will be offered $50,000 to $62,000 per year, lowest provincial income taxes across Canada, and no provincial sales tax, Mr.

Speaker, exactly the salary that falls into the category of $60,000 where Manitoba boasts the highest taxes across the country. What will the Minister of Health do to try to ensure that those radiation technologists will not take greener pastures and take that route and not stay in Manitoba as a result of their tax regime? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon me to correct, again, the statements. Does the Member not realize there is a difference between radiation therapists and radiation technologists? I do not know exactly what the Member is asking. That is the first point.

The second point is that when we came to office, the lists for breast and prostate cancer were beyond the saf e levels for people's lives, which were beyond those levels when those members were in office, which is why we instituted our program. The last stats I saw showed our waiting lists compared to the waiting list this time last year were I think somewhere in the neighbourhood of half on the last stats that I saw. The Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) introduced a balanced budget that had a program for nurses and a program for all of the citizens in Manitoba with respect to recruitment and retention, something that was totally overlooked by members opposite when they were in office, as well as a balance between tax cuts and tax savings, which were not a part of the former government's program. I might add, for relief, Mr. Speaker, for information, I have the former government's information sheet about what they were going to do and what they were going to do to increase staff.

It is very interesting. * (13:45) First Nations Casinos Revenue-Sharing Formula Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, questions still exist and arise in regard to the equity of the revenue-sharing formula proposed as a result of this government's doubling of gambling here in Manitoba. In Saskatchewan, 25 percent of the net profits are allocated to the provincial government's general revenue, contrary to the First Minister's (Mr. Doer)

2330 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 comment in regard to the funding being from Saskatchewan to cover costs and overhead. My question to the Minister responsible for gaming: Did he or his government make any requests that a proportion of the revenue sharing be allocated to this provincial government's revenue? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, thank you to the Member for Southdale for the question.

Certainly, there is a formula in place that, through conversations and discussions with the AMC, the AMC has certainly put forward and the Government has looked at very closely, the 70 percent,-27.5 percent and 2.5 percent to an addictions trust fund. That is something that was worked at very hard and it was looked at to be very equitable for all First Nations people across the province. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, this government here seems to throw up the Saskatchewan model at their convenience.

In regard to the Saskatchewan model for revenue sharing, I should point out that 50 percent goes to the First Nations fund, 25 percent to the First Nations casinos and 25 percent is retained for general revenue for the benefit of all Saskatchewan people. I am asking this Minister: Will he give the same consideration to the sharing of revenue for the benefit of all Manitobans at 25 percent? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, Saskatchewan certainly is a model that we looked at.

We looked at also the Bostrom report as a guide, and certainly we are very unique in a sense that Manitoba's approach to having an independent selection committee look into the proposals and to try to determine when they looked at those proposals to see which ones would be most successful. So our circumstances are different, slightly different, from even looking through a Bostrom report that was asked for by the previous government-cer tainly the selection committee that we put in place. So our circumstances are a little bit different from Saskatchewan's example. Mr. Reimer: Mr.

Speaker, I will then ask the Minister respo nsible for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the minister responsible for gaming, whether, while he was travelling through Saskatchewan with the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) with the Government jet, visiting the casinos, did he not see that the revenue sharing that was implemented in Saskatchewan can be a benefit for all of Manitobans instead of the way it is proposed now with the funding formula that they have agreed to and which they have accepted in entirety?

It would seem that they have given no thought to any type of formulation or the manipulation of the formula other than that that was brought forth by AMC. Did they have any input as to a different formula or an allocation of funding? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Member opposite raised the casino in Yorkton because it certainly gives an example of what a First Nations casino and successful business operation can do. The community of Yorkton, the business surrounding the casino in Yorkton, you have three new hotels there.

Not only the First Nations community are benefiting from it. but the community as a whole has benefited from working in partnership with First Nations people. That is something we are very proud of. First Nations Casinos Revenue-Sharing Formula Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker. First Nations people in many communities have serious concerns about the 30 percent of revenues that will be taken by out-of-province casino management companies, revenue that should remain here in Manitoba with First Nations people.

What is left to those First Nations not part of the successful bidding process is a very small wedge of the revenue pie. Can the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs explain why management companies are going to be receiving a far greater share of the casino revenues than Manitoba's First Nations people? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act: Certainly with regard to revenue sharing, the AMC in partnership with us, with the Government of Manitoba look closely at the revenue-sharing arrangement for First Nations people and how to benefit First Nations people as a whole.

The formula that they came up with

June 8, 2000 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 233 1 seemed reasonable to the AMC and certainly seemed reasonable to us at 70 percent to the host community or proponents and looking at 27.5 percent going to all First Nations people and 2.5 percent into an addictions fund. * (13:50) Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs once again: What does this Minister of Aboriginal Affairs have to say to First Nations people who live in my constituency, including the Waywayseecappo First Nation, who were led to believe, as stated in the RFP, that they would have substantial economic benefits, jobs and economic development opportunities and are now left to receive a mere handout as a result of the policy of this government? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, we are all very proud of the independent committee that was put in place by the AMC and the Government of Manitoba. We realize that there were some First Nations communities that were not happy with the outcome, as I would be if I were chief of a given community. Certainly in my previous discussions with Chief Clearsky of the Waywayseecappo First Nation, I believe that a lot of facilities are open to that community and I think that Chief Clearsky is truly a businessman.

He has led the way in economic development for his people, and I am very happy that the Member for Russell has taken that into consideration. I would like to say that we felt the process was fair. There are some winners, there are some losers, but above all, I believe that all First Nations are winners through this agreement that we have with the Government of Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact is that there are few winners but very many First Nations losers in this situation.

Will the Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs explain why Manitoba's First Nations people are not going to realize the full benefits of the expansion of gaming, yet management companies from out of province are going to reap 30 percent of gaming revenues? Mr. Robinson: Again, we have reiterated many times that we have embarked upon a very unique initiative, an agreement with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs which represents 62 First Nations in the province of Manitoba. We do not want to be in a position as a provincial government to tell First Nations governments how to run their business.

First Nations Addictions Foundation Establishment Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Sp eaker, the Manitoba First Nations Casino Project Selection Committee report calls for 2.5 percent of net casino profits to be provided to the First Nations addictions foundation, a new entity that exists only on paper. Can the Minister of Health indicate what increased levels of gambling addiction his department expects in the aboriginal community that has prompted the creation of this new organization? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as members opposite are probably aware, if they have had an opportunity to read the report, it indicated several things: Firstly that there was a provision that was put in advance, which I thought was very prudent, very preventative, in keeping, in line with experiences that in fact a provision of specific revenue should go towards treatment; the second issue I think the members opposite should note was that representatives of AFM, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, were one of the consultants to the report. Mr.

Jim Penner: Why, given that the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba already services all Manitobans, including Aboriginal peoples, has the Minister of Health moved to duplicate services by creating a separate addictions foundation? Mr. Chomiak: I guess the premise in the question is that the Member opposite or perhaps the members opposite suggest that they have the answer with respect to a solution. A provision was set aside for a particular sum of money to be allocated towards addictions, and in addition the head of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba was a consultant to the process.

2332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 Addictions Foundation of Manitoba Government Support Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Obviously, Mr. Speaker, they are admitting to being the people creating a problem, so I am going to ask once more from the Minister of Health if he would advise the House if he has lost faith in the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba. and if not, why does he not simply increase support to AFM? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have faith in the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba.

I have faith in the aboriginal first communities of this province to be able to have opportunity for economic development, something that was deprived them for a long period of time. Thirdly, I have faith in the process that was established, the independent process, a process that was reviewed with respect to the issue. Gambling Addiction Statistics Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, a study commissioned by the Alberta Drug and Alcohol Abuse Commission shows that the rate of problem gambling among aboriginals is I 0 percent, which is nearly twice the average for the Alberta population.

The same report indicates an alarming figure of 28 percent of Aboriginal youth were rated as problem gamblers, more than 2.8 times the aboriginal average. Was the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. McGifford), who is responsible for the doubling of gambling in Manitoba, aware of these numbers before she became a proponent of increased gambling in Manitoba? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): As I understand the question, Mr. Speaker, we do not want to predetermine what First Nations have in mind. Our partnership is to be solidified with the implementation committee.

It could be that the First Nations will want to partner with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, as an example, to build in a cultural component relevant to First Nations' beliefs. *( 13:55) Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, we are asking the Government whether they are aware of the numbers, and the numbers are simple. As reported by the Alberta Drug and Alcohol Abuse Commission, the problem rate of gambling in aboriginals is 10 percent; in youth, it is 28 percent. Pretty alarming figures.

I am simply asking the Minister who is responsible for Lotteries, responsible for doubling gambling in this province, was she aware of those figures before she became a proponent of doubling gambling in this province? Mr. Robinson: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe we are doubling gambling in the province of Manitoba. With the total casinos that are being proposed for First Nations, the total numbers again come up to about the same size as Club Regent or McPhillips Street Station.

One of the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquir y is that Aboriginal people only comprise about 1 0 percent of Manitoba's population, yet we have 60 percent of Aboriginal people in prisons, 90 percent, in some cases, in some of these provincial institutions. We are very well aware of the social problems. What we are trying to do is create some economic activities and initiatives, trying to address the issues that were outlined in the Bostrom report: housing, poverty, unemploy ment. I believe that this is one initiative that will address that issue. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, these ministers and this government need to do their homework because there has also been three recent Canadian studies which concluded that Canadian governments failed to recognize it was- Mr. Speaker: Order, order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2333 Member gets up and goes on with a supplementary question and a

preamble that is extensive. I do not know if he has a question coming, but I refer him to Beauchesne's Citation 410 : "supplementary questions require no

preambles" and further, Beauchesne's Citation 409: "The question must be brief. . . . A supplementary question should need no

preamble." Mr. Speaker, would you please draw the Member's attention to that and ask him to put a simple question as a supplementary. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on the same point of order. Mr. Darren Praznik (Deputy Opposition House Leader): I would ask if the Government House Leader could have the Minister to whom the question was directed actually answer it instead of putting it off on other ministers. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. ** * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that three recent Canadian studies have concluded that governments appear not to recognize a- Mr. Speaker: Order. I would just like to remind the House I just made a ruling, and I have asked the Member to please put his question. Mr. Loewen: I apologize, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister a fairly simple question that, given these devastating numbers, will the Minister- Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Loewen: It is a question. Mr.

Speaker: Order. * (1 4:00) Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rose on a point of order on the first supplementary when it contained a

preamble, and you made a ruling saying that there was no

preamble allowed; a simple question must be posed to the House. The Member then got up and once again inserted a

preamble just as you had told him not to. You admonished him in very clear tenns. He has just got up and exactly repeated almost word for word the earlier question that you admonished him on. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the Member, in his shameful conduct, get up and apologize to the House. We recognize that the Member is new to the House, but it is not that he is without guidance on how to pose his supplementary questions. You provided not only guidance but the clearest guidance possible. This is wilf ul disobedience of the rules of the House.

I ask that you direct him to apologize to the House and put his question at once. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on the same point of order. Mr. Darren Praznik (Deputy Opposition House Leader): First of all, this is a new member who feels very passionately about the expansion of gaming. This is a new member who is very heartfelt in his concern about the damage that gaming may cause. Yes, maybe he made an error in putting a

preamble, but clearly in the last time in which he rose he was asking the Minister a question. Clearly, he wanted to know why the Minister, who was so against these things before, has now changed her position. She has put it of f to other ministers to answer. She is refusing to get up. She is frustrating the Member for Fort Whyte. Yes, he may have made a mistake, but it has been done out of his concern for the people for whom he asked the question. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, I will cite Beauchesne's Citation 402 once

2334 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 more and advise that a supplementary question not require a

preamble. * * * Mr. Speaker: will ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I apologize to you if I have overstepped my bounds. I am simply asking the Minister: Will she examine these figures and will she commit to her government having an economic and social cost impact study prior to proceeding with doubling gambling in Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I sat as a member for 10 years on that side of the House during a time when the former government expanded gambling from $40- million revenue to $240-million revenue, and I thought it was a serious mistake not to have put in place anticipatory and addiction programs prior to their massive expansion with gambling revenue.

I thought it was a very useful process and a very innovative and frankly practical solution on the part of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, on the Government of Manitoba through the process to put in place. in anticipation of perhaps some expanded gambling-set aside revenues to deal with the addiction issue as well as including expertise in the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba in that process. I think it is prudent to learn from the mistakes of the previous government. E. Coli Bacteria High-Risk Wells Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the respected scientist, Dr.

Schindler, predicts that the combined effects of climate change, acid rain, human and livestock wastes and so on and so forth will result in the degradation of Canadian fresh water on a scale hitherto unimaginable. Yet, when it comes to the environment, we have a Premier (Mr. Doer) who fails to step to the plate and chair the Round Table on Sustainable Development. We have a Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) who three times on Monday answered, instead of straightforward basic questions, I will take that under advisement and still has not got back to me in spite of the fact that these are important issues on E. coli contamination of our water. My question to the Minister of Health: Given, last week, the Premier's specific reference to the fact that he was looking at areas of high risk for contamination of E. coli, I ask the Minister of Health: Where are the high-risk areas for E. coli contamination of wells in Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomi ak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as a result of some of the inquiries with respect to livestock, we did inquiries in the Department of Health, and I understand that the particular strain of E. coli that was in the Walkerton incident, the 0 !57 E. coli, is only present in approximately 1 percent of the intestines of livestock. In fact, there are E. coli that are present in the intestines of livestock and in fact those particular kinds are not the kind, the 0157, that caused the contamination. With respect to the question of the Member in regard to high-risk areas, we have been doing examinations.

One of the difficulties was a former policy that saw the number of tests go down considerably with respect to private wells. We are actually compiling data on that. I can also inform the Member- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard : My supplementary to the Minister of Health. With reports that suggest that even with 2 percent of 40 000 tests a year, which is 800 positive tests for E. coli, where are the positive tests and are there high-risk areas that people should be aware of? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated before, a process was put in place in order to map and determine this.

I can indicate to the Member that there will be an announcement with respect to some of these issues that will take place tomorrow by myself and by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) with respect to the well testing. That will include the issue of well testing. The issue, as far as we are able to determine at this point, is that of the 50 000 private wells in the province of Manitoba, I want to point out that we have never had an incident

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2335 of E. coli 0157 in any drinking water in Manitoba. But, having said that, we are putting in place an evaluation process and a long-term process to deal with those issues, and to that end we have done considerable testing around the province and will continue to do so. Mr. Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Minister of Health: Given the number of po�itive tests, is there a relationship between test positivity and livestock operations? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I do not think it is necessarily prudent for the Minister of Health to take a technical question of that kind. I will refer that to Public Health officials, who I think are the appropriate individuals to provide the specific answer either in writing to the Member through some course. I will return back to the House with a response on that specific question. Farm Machinery Board Board Qualifications Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, last night at the committee meeting for Bill 20, The Farm Machinery and Equipment Amendment Act, the Member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner) questioned the advice given to the Minister of Agriculture and Food by the Manitoba Farm Machinery Board. He also questioned the qualif ications of the Board members. Can the Minister of Agricul ture advise the House on the nature of the advice given to her and the qualifications of the Board chairman? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, I certainly thank my colleague for that question because last night at the committee the credibility and the qualifications of the members of the Farm Machinery Board were called into question. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I was at that committee last night, which lasted till eleven o'clock in the evening. The issue of who had given some recommendations to the Minister did come up. In no way- Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

We are not going to get into a debate on a point of order. I would like to advise all members the purpose of points of orders. A point of order is to be used to draw to the Speaker's attention any departure from the rules or practices of the House or to raise concerns about unparliamentary language. That is the reason for points of orders and not to get into debates. So I would ask: Does the Honourable Member have a point of order about breaking of rules? The Member for Fort Whyte, on a point of order. * (14:10 ) Mr.

Loewen: I believe the Minister said that the Board's credibility was questioned and that was simply not the case. I am just asking the Minister to be honest. Mr. Speaker: It is not a point of order. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over facts. *** Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to bring some information to the House that was requested last night questioning the qualifications of the Board, and I would like to point out that the chair of the Farm Machinery and Equipment Board is Mr.

Balmer who has 33 years of experience in the farm machinery industry in both manufacturing and on the dealership side. Mr. Balmer has served the Manitoba Farm Machinery Board for 22 years. In fact, he and the Board oversaw the agreed drafted Farm Machinery Equipment Act that the previous government brought in last year, and

2336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 they also helped us with the drafting of the legislation that we have tabled. But I have to say that I have no difficulty with members of the Opposition, my critic, calling the Farm Machinery Board for information, and I welcome all inquiries to any of my boards. But I find it completely unacceptable for members of the Opposition to call into question the credibility of the chairman of the Board or the Board members and tell them that they are out of touch. That is unacceptable for members of the Opposition to do that to a board of government.

First Nations Casinos Economic Impact Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): The Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, when asked a very important question about the impact doubling gambling in Manitoba will have on Crown gaming revenue, offered up simply lame excuses. Can the Minister quantify the loss of revenue that Manitoba Lotteries is facing as a direct result of the introduction of five First Nations casinos? Hon.

Diane McGitTord (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): In fact, implicit in the Member's question or at least two questions, the first one with regard to doubling gambling, of course, we are nowhere near doubling gambling as the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) has pointed out. Secondly, as I have pointed out I believe twice this week in the House, the biggest threats to loss of revenues in this province are really leftovers from the Tory administration opposite.

The $70 million, pardon me, the $70-million overrun in expansions to casinos, first; second, the $1 70-million debt that is owed to the bank; thirdly, years of mismanagement. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I will ask the question again. Can the Minister quantify the loss of revenue that Manitoba Lotteries will face as a result of the introduction of five new casinos? Ms. McGifford: Now that we have potential locations, we can perhaps begin to make estimates about the various impacts that these scenarios might have on Manitoba. We presume that there may be some impact.

This party has always believed, we believed at the beginning of this process and we continue to believe, that this is not money lost, this is money shared with First Nations people who are Manitobans. Mr. Gilleshammer: My question to the Minister of Finance: Can the Minister confirm or deny that he is looking at a loss of some $30 million to general revenue as a result of the formation of these new casinos? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): think it is important to re-emphasize the point ju st made by the Minister of Culture that we do not see this as a loss.

We see this as a sharing of revenues with the First Nations members of the Manitoba community. This sharing of revenues will be one that benefits them in terms of economic and community development and will allow the entire Manitoba community to benefit by their prosperity. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On Tuesday, May 23, 2000, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan) regarding words which he had withdrawn on May 19 .

However, subsequently, after reading Hansard, the Member realized that he had not spoken the words that were allegedly attributed to him. The Honourable Government House Leader also spoke to the same point of order and indicated that in the raising of the point of order, the Honourable Member for Carman had used unparliamentary language directed towards the Government House Leader. The Honourable Member for Carman and the Official Opposition House Leader then spoke to the same point of order. I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities.

I thank all honourable members for their contributions to the point of order.

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2337 After having reviewed the information brought forward, it appears that the House has a situation where two members have contradictory accounts of the same episode. The Honourable Member for Carman states he said one thing; the Honourable Government House Leader asserts that he heard another. Beauchesne's Citation 494 advises that it has been formally ruled by Speakers that statements by members respecting themselves and particularly within their own knowledge must be accepted.

On rare occasions this may result in the House having to accept two contradictory accounts of the same incident. This citation is reinforced by rulings from Speaker Rocan on May 9, 1994, and March 20, 1995, and by rulings from Madam Speaker Dacquay on April 29, 19 96; September 18 , 19 96; November 4, 1996; and April 20, 19 99. I am therefore ruling that the Honourable Member for Carman does not have a point of order, as the matter he raised essentially clarified for the record that the comments he said differed from the comments that were heard by the Honourable Government House Leader.

On the issue of the use of unparliamentary language in the raising of the point of order, the Honourable Member for Carman clarified that he had not used unparliamentary language because the words in dispute appeared in a list of parliamentary phrases contained in Beauchesne's Citation 490.

Regarding the use of unpar liamentary language, Marleau and Montpetit advise on page 526 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice that in dealing with unparliamentary language, the Speaker takes into account the tone, manner, and intention of the Member speaking, the person to whom the words were directed, the degree of provocation, and most importantly whether or not the remarks created disorder in the Chamber.

They continue to state that a codification of unparliamentary language has proven impractical, as it is the context in which the words and phrases are used that the Chair must consider when deciding whether or not they should be withdrawn. Although an expression may be found to be acceptable, the Speaker has cautioned that any language which leads to disorder in the House should not be used. This sentiment is also expressed in Beauchesne's Citation 486( 1) .

Although the words "barefaced falsehood" appear on the list of parliamentary phrases contained in the Beauchesne's Citation 490, Manitoba Speakers have ruled the word "falsehood" out of order and have requested the withdrawal of the word. On June 1, 19 93, Mr. Speaker Rocan requested the withdrawal of the word "falsehood" as did Madam Speaker Dacquay on September 21, 19 95. * (1 4:20) I note that on June 5, 2000, the Honourable Member for Carman rose and voluntarily withdrew the use of the word "falsehood" and I thank him for that.

I would just like to reiterate for the House that the rulings on language, the guiding aspects for Manitoba Speakers are previous Speakers' rulings, and the context which the words are used, rather than relying on a list of words. Thank you very much. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Income Taxes Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to briefly respond to the Tory ideological rant that tax cuts single handedly lead to increased provincial wealth and that this wealth is then passed on to individual citizens.

Members opposite want to believe that the sole factor in a healthy economy is low income taxes and that the economy will continue to grow by slashing taxes without adequate consideration of its effects on health care and education. We all know that a stable and predictable economy is based on more than a single variable. This becomes evident when we look at the experiences of other jurisdictions. Ireland, a country faced with a history of economic challenges, has, since 19 93, experienced an economic boom.

Annual economic growth has grown in that country by more than 8 percent, employment grew by 25 percent and unem-

2338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 ployment has fallen from 18 percent in 19 87 to less than 8 percent in 19 98. The roots of Ireland's economic successes lie not in this cutting of taxes but in a program of co-operation, social investment and transfer payments. Active dialogue and planning between government, employers, labourers and farmers enabled Ireland to develop agreements on the main lines of economic policy. It was through the social partnership between the state and economic and social interests that Ireland was able to improve their economic conditions, not through the cutting of taxes.

Our government, similar to Ireland and certainly unlike members opposite, recognized the advantages of a balanced and responsible approach to the economy and understand how this helps ensure a strong future for our citizens, a strong future for our communities and a strong future for our province. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Osvita Foundation Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): It was my pleasure to attend the 19 th Annual Osvita Foundation Testimonial Dinner on June 7 last evening. At this dinner, two extraordinary women in Manitoba's Ukrainian community received well-deserved distinction for their efforts.

This year's recipients were Ms. Victoria Adams and Ms. Nadya Kostyshyn-Bailey. Vicky Adams, the principal of Ralph Brown School, has worked in curriculum and professional development and conducted seminars for teachers and parents in second language instruction. She has taught Ukrainian language classes for adults, brought various dance ensembles from the Ukraine to work with students and facilitated the Telebridge satellite exchange between Winnipeg and Lviv. She serves on numerous other boards within Manitoba and is a founder and director of Sopilka Ukrainian Dance School.

Her countless contributions to Manitoba's Ukrainian com munity have been invaluable. Nadya Kostyshyn-Bailey initiated conver sational Ukrainian classes and in 19 69 began work for the provincial government as creative arts consultant. She developed cultural and leadership trammg programs in arts, crafts, drama, dance and music. Over 10 000 people have participated in these programs. She has been part of the negotiating team for Manitoba's immigration and settlement programs and responsible for conducting citizenship courts annually in Manitoba.

Nadya has been part of the provincial team in the Canada-Ukraine Legislators Project and presently is the manager of Social-Cultural Initiatives and government and community liaison for the province's Manitoba-Ukraine Secretariat. Both of these remarkable women have made significant contributions to this province's Ukrainian community. Through the ef forts of Manitobans like Victoria Adams and Nadya Kostyshyn-Bailey, the Ukrainian culture has remained an important part of Manitoba's collective culture. I congratulate them for this important recognition and wish them both all the best in their future endeavours.

Bakers Narrows Day Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker. on Sunday, June 5, it was my privilege once again to participate in Bakers Narrows Day 2000 at Bakers Narrows Provincial Park. This popular annual outdoor family celebration is sponsored by the Flin Flon and District Chamber of Commerce. Bakers Narrows Day started with a delicious pancake breakfast served by members of the Lions Clubs from Flin Flon and Cranberry Portage. At eleven o'clock there was an outdoor non-denominational church service. At noon, Queen Mermaid Melissa Strom made the official cast which opened the 50th trout festival.

Melissa was ably assisted by first and second princesses Chelsie Miller and Jackie Bloxom. There were many fun events during the day. To name a few, a tae kwon do demonstration, hoop dancing, horseshoe tournament, a recycling scavenger hunt, a comedian's performance, kiddies' games, a golf challenge and a zoo exhibit. Although the weather was not entirely co-operative, it was a great day for family fun. I invite all my colleagues in the Legislature to bring their families and friends to northern

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2339 Manitoba. You will undoubtedly enjoy great scenery and wonderful northern hospitality and, who knows, you might catch that special trout. Come and visit Flin Flon for the home coming 2000 at the end of the month. Enter the fishing derbies. You will not regret it. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank Jonathan Naylor and the countless volunteers who have made events such as Bakers Narrows Day such popular attractions. As well, I want to extend good luck to all Queen Mermaid contestants and offer a big thank you to their sponsors. Thank you.

Fort Garry Legion Poppy Trust Committee Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, it was my great pleasure to attend the presentation of five very significant donations to local health facilities and initiatives from the Fort Garry Legion Poppy Trust Committee through their Poppy Fund on June 6. The Fort Garry Legion Poppy Trust Committee presented each of the recipients with a $3,000 donation. The recipients of these donations were the Victoria Hospital Chronic Care Support unit, the Riverview H. C.

Chronic Care Support unit, the Eye Care component of the Misericordia Chronic Care unit, the Manitoba Nursing Research Institute at the University of Manitoba. specifically for research in care enhancement for cancer patients and quality of life in long-term care, and the Joint Hospital Sick Visiting program. I would like to point out to all members that the Joint Hospital Sick Visiting program involves Legionnaires visiting patients in Winnipeg hospitals. This program is very actively supported by the Fort Garry Legion and is most appreciated by the patients who are visited in the hospitals.

I would like to congratulate all of these programs for their invaluable effort to enhance the care the citizens of Manitoba receive in our health care facilities. I would encourage all members to join me in extending our gratitude to the men and women of the Fort Garry Legion Poppy Trust Committee for their significant contribution to health services in their community through both their fundraising and volunteer ef forts. Mr. Brian Cutts, the chairman of the Poppy Trust Fund, and all the Fort Garry Legionnaires should be commended for their great work on behalf of all Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Valleyview School Mr. Scott Smith (Brandon West): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to stand today to recognize Valleyview school in Brandon who has won the first $1 ,000 School of the Year Award for its participation in the province-wide Learn Not To Burn fire-safety program. I was pleased to recognize Principal Lee, students, teachers and its parent council members for their outstanding ef forts to promote fire-safety awareness in children. * (14: 30) Through this excellent program, Manitoba children are being taught strategies that could save lives of not only themselves but others.

We are very supportive in their efforts to reach this goal for the children in this important message. Learn Not To Burn is an internationally recognized fire-safety program developed by teachers and experts for students from kindergarten to Grade 3. The School ofthe Year Award is a five-year promotional component implemented to increase the use of the Learn Not To Burn program in Manitoba through our Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) and Minister responsible for Fire Commissioners.

Schools eligible for the award were judged based on the number of K to 3 students participating, creative use of the program resources and their use of the community resources in delivering the fire-prevention curriculum. Mr. Speaker, Valleyview school's students and parents did it best. I congratulate them on their commitment and their fine work for the community. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader: I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Mr. Speaker do now

2340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) JUSTICE Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Justice. When the Committee last sat, it had agreed to have a global discussion on the Estimates of the Department of Justice, with line items to be passed once the questioning and discussion is completed. Is that still the will of the Committee? [Agreed] Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chair, I would ask the Minister if he has the staff here today to discuss the issue with respect to Corrections officers and a potential strike.

I think he had agreed to have staff here today for that discussion. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I understand that the Assistant Deputy Minister of Corrections is expected here in a couple of minutes. He is on his way now. Mr. Praznik: Perhaps we will just wait a few minutes for him. Mr. Chair, perhaps while we are waiting, if the Minister has the factum on the information that I had requested yesterday in the matter regarding the convictions arising out of the Waterhen situation and their appeals to the Supreme Court of Canada. Mr.

Mackinto sh: I have been provided by the Prosecutions branch the factum of the appellants and the factum of the respondent in the case of Her Majesty the Queen and Gabriel et al. Mr. Praznik: I think we are just waiting. Is your staff here? An Honourable Member: We are ready to go. Mr. Praznik: Okay. My questions have to do with the dispute between the Manitoba Government Employees Union and the Province in the current negotiations. Today we saw a demonstration here at this building. Several hundred, perhaps a thousand, correctional officers and their supporters gathered here.

I had asked yesterday if the Minister would have for us-and I appreciate that the Civil Service Commission, the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) lead in these negotiations, but I asked, for the benefit of factual information, if I could be provided with a list of the rates of pay for correctional officers in Manitoba in various classes as well as a comparison to their counterparts in other parts of the nation. Mr.

Mackinto sh: The Corrections Division has provided to me some compilation of salary scales for correctional officers in Manitoba as well as other jurisdictions, and I am pleased to provide that to the Member. However, I think it is very important that, first of all, these numbers be viewed in the context of the negotiations that are taking place for all components in government but, second of all, that the information given is only with respect to wages and exclude other con siderations that may be of importance to employees of the Government or correctional officers in this case.

For example, with regard to vacation benefits or retirement benefits, that I trust the Member will recall has been an issue in Manitoba, there have been some specific treatment of those issues for the Corrections component in Manitoba in particular. So there is a context that I think is very important to remember when looking at these numbers. * (1 4:50) Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the comments of the Minister of Justice. I have been

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2341 around long enough to know that the wage rates are only one part of it, that the benefit side is certainly the other. Would he perhaps like to just add some comment for the benefit of the record with a little explanation? Maybe if our rates are lower in pay, they might be better on vacation and other things, what have you. If he would like to maybe just add something for the purposes of those who may read this record at some point. Mr.

Mackinto sh: I thought pretty carefully about what I should say in the last statement for the reason that-I know that we talked about this yesterday-! do not want to be bargaining at this table or have the appearance of bargaining at this table. I have a long and deep respect for that process that is established, and I would have regrets if it appeared that there were negotiations, unwitting or otherwise, or there was a positioning on the part of the Government being made at this table. But I do not know if that will satisfy the Member or if he would like to go further on this issue. Mr. Praznik: No, Mr.

Chair, having been on that side of the table in these issues, I appreciate the difficulty with which the Minister is in, in answering my questions, and I certainly do not want to be negotiating on behalf of anyone. I appreciate again that there are issues around other components to this. It was fairly clear in the demonstration today that the demands are about money. That was made very, very clear, and not working conditions, so I appreciate there are also other components.

The only comment that I make is that this information, I am wanting it on the public record, by and large, for purposes of accuracy so that my colleagues and I have an accurate set of numbers when we are queried by the public on whatever side of the issue. I always believe one should attempt to deal with the facts, and that is the purpose that I wanted that for. Mr. Chair, my next area of questioning on this line I think is not about bargaining, but the part of the table that the Minister, of course, does not control is bargaining. That is dealt with centrally in Treasury Board on other issues.

The money is flowed through his department. I recognize that his influence may be only that as a member of Cabinet, et cetera, on a larger picture, but what is within his purview, of course, is should there be a walkout, legal or otherwise, the public's concern, of course, is for the maintenance of our security of our jail system, correctional system. I understand that some plans are in place, as they were when we went through this when we were in government, for the use of the RCMP. I was wondering if he could perhaps give us some sense today on those plans.

We hope, of course, this does not happen, but if they do, if he could give us some sense of the plans that are in place to deal with a complete walkout, a complete strike of this component, and whether or not that will have an effect on policing in other parts of the province where members of the RCMP may be drawn from to fill the gaps created in our correctional system. Mr. Mackinto sh: First of all, it should be noted that the negotiations are resuming Monday starting at noon and are scheduled to continue next week. Second, the union is not in a legal strike position. Currently, there has been no strike vote.

Third, in the eventuality, and, of course, the Department has to prepare itself for that of any strike action, the RCMP have been contacted and arrangements have been worked on with them to assure all that safety will be maintained and security is continued. The arrangements that the RCMP make to fulfill this exigency is a matter for the management of the RCMP. They have assured the province that they can fulfill this need should it arise as well as continue to fulfill their obligations as Manitoba's provincial police force.

We understand in the past there can be some reorganizations ·o n a temporary basis of deployment throughout the province. Sometimes it is with regard to highway patrol or maybe other abilities available to them. As well, it may be available to them to draw on resources from outside the province, but that is a matter that has been left to the RCMP, which we understand has had a successful past. Mr. Praznik: Two questions, Mr. Chair.

The first one is: Are there plans in place should there be an illegal walkout or work-to-rule campaign or other such job action which may reduce the efficiency of the current correctional service?

2342 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 Mr. Mackinto sh: Yes. Those arrangements were put in place in the event of any significant job action. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chairman, my question to the Minister is: Within those plans, does he expect a significant reduction in RCMP service in communities if we do have a job action and Mounties are drawn out of the regular de tachments across the province? Mr.

Mackinto sh: I understand that if the RCMP determine that resources were reduced in certain capacities that could affect the ability of the RCMP to properly protect the public, they would go to obtain resources outside of Manitoba. There is a history of resource sharing or temporary deployment of resources from other places in Canada. *( 15: 00) Mr. Praznik: We hope that we do not see that happen and, as in all labour disputes, that it comes to an amicable settlement that is felt to be fair by both parties. I wish the Minister and his colleagues well in that endeavour.

I think I have secured the answers to the questions I have wanted there. My colleague from Portage Ia Prairie is quite interested in this particular case for which he has provided us now with a factum. He is in another part of the Comm ittee and will be joining us shortly. I will just come back to that at one particular point. I want to thank the staff, the Minister for providing me with this factum. I have been just perusing it. It fills in a lot of gaps in the information that I was provided as a critic. So we may wait there for a few minutes till the Member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) joins us.

If I may now ask the Minister some questions with respect to the issue of the applications for casinos for First Nations. I understand that staff from his departments were part of the review committee, with the so-called independent review committee of Mr. Nadeau and Mr. Freedman. I just want to ask him if in fact staff of his department were assigned to that particular committee, and what was their role, if they were? Mr. Mackinto sh: It is my understanding that it was not the Department of Justice employees.

Well, let us put it this way: it was my understanding that Civil Legal Services, a special operating agency, which provides legal advice and assistance to government, was called on to assist. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, since this is my first time as a critic in opposition, perhaps the Minister or the Chair could just indicate to me that the Minister does answer for the special operating agency. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, the Civil Legal Services as an SOA comes under the responsibility of the Attorney General, Minister of Justice.

In fact, the Estimates there are set out, not the Estimates, but the balance sheets are set out, starting at page 10 2, and as well earlier on at

part 4, on page 97, page 98, Civil Legal Services is described in terms of its respo nsibility, its mission, and how it operates. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, a number of areas of questioning that I have. My recollection from special operating agencies and Civil Legal Services, my understanding that the expenditure for work done for other departments and agencies is billed back to those departments or agencies. Is that correct? Mr. Mackinto sh: Yes. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Chair, in the area of the work being done in support of the Aboriginal casino project, First Nations casino project, could the Minister tell me who was responsible for the bill for the services provided by the Special Operating Agency? Mr. Mackinto sh: We will have to determine what the client department was, whether it was well, I will leave it at that. We can determine that and Jet the Member know. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, then I take it the Minister will undertake to provide me within the next few days, even if we are finished our Estimates, that information in writing. Mr. Mackintos h: Yes.

June 8, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2343 Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, my questions in this area, what was the mandate or the role of staff in the work done on the First Nations gaming project? What type of advice was sought, and what role did they play? I am trying to understand what work was done in this particular area. You will see shortly from my questioning what I am interested in. Mr. Mackinto sh: I wonder if the Member could clarify.

Recognizing this solicitor-client pri vilege in the treatment of legal opinions, is he asking for the nature or the substance of assistance provided by Civil Legal Services on this issue? Mr. Praznik: I am looking for not the substance but the purpose or the intent. Was it to provide just general legal advice in terms of the current status of statutes and laws that had to be met as opposed to investigatory work that might be done with respect to matters? I will be very blunt, right to the point.

There are five operators. private-sector operators, or four private-sector operators that made it into the recommendations of the report. One of them, at least is from out of province. We would think, given some of the experiences in U.S. casinos where private-sector operators were used to manage them, and we have reason to believe that these companies may be receiving as much as 30 percent of the profit. We are wanting to determine whether or not these companies have been investigated to see in fact if they are credible, legitimate operators.

Have they been involved in any suspicious or criminal activity in the past? Have charges been laid against any of their principals or operators? These would be, I would suspect, the regular part of due diligence on behalf of a government in ensuring that, in granting, as Mr. Nadeau and Mr. Freedman called it, the privilege of operating a casino, those who would be managing would be subject to a scrutiny by law enf orcement officials to ensure that the public and First Nations communities were not, in fact, contracting with anything less than reputable operators.

I would like to know if the Minister's department, through this service, provided any of that type of check on these particular operators to the committee when they were making their assessment and recommendation on five operators. Mr. Mackintosh: We certainly can advise publicly whether advice was provided to a client department, but not the nature of the advice, of course. Now, the Department itself as the client may be able and will ing to advise of the nature of the advice. That is why it would be important, I understand, to advise what department it was that was the client.

This may not be as direct an answer as the Opposition may want, but aside from going to the client department, we could make a list of questions that the Member has and determine the extent to which we can answer those questions, but I expect that the matter of privilege and opinion will prevent disclosure from this end. But, certainly, at the Department end, as the client, there may be much more freedom to provide that information. Mr. Praznik: I appreciate the Minister's comment knowing that the special operating agency is acting like a law firm. There is solicitor-client privilege involved.

I take it then the Minister is suggesting that the questions that I have in this vein should be directed at the client department in terms of their having the proprietary right over the information. I gather that he would be in breach of that situation if he were to provide it, and I appreciate that. I just would like that clarification, that my question should be directed in another series of Estimates to the appropriate department that purchased the services that were provided by the special operating agency. Mr.

Mackin tosh: Civil Legal Services has to be seen no differently than as if the client department contracted with a law firm, in this case in the City of Winnipeg perhaps, so the Member is correct. In the meantime, we will make inquiries to determine who the client department was. Mr. Praznik: Then I will heed his advice, and we will be into those specific questions, and I am sure he will provide me with that information shortly with respect to who the client department was and other undertakings that he has given.

2344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 If I may for a moment in the same vein but in a more general way, I would ask the Minister if his department in their work in the activities of organized crime, given that we are looking at in Manitoba in essence having private casino operators, if his department has done any work generally with the RCMP or any other law enf orcement agencies on the operation of organized crime in the gaming industry certainly in the United States and other places, and what concerns and fears as the chief law administrator of the province he would have in ensuring that we do not see any avenues for that type of activity come into the province. * (15:10) So I am looking for really two things, a sense of the kind of activity that his department is aware of that has been seen in other jurisdictions with private gaming operators and what kinds of concerns that he would have in ensuring that that did not come into our jurisdiction with the introduction of, in essence, private gaming facilities, gaming facilities outside the purview and the day-to-day management of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation?

Mr. Mackinto sh: The first line of responsibility for identifying crime, of course, is the police and the law enforcement agencies in Manitoba. We know that at the City of Winnipeg level, the Winnipeg Police Service has now reorganized their structure and, in particular, their vice unit and have restructured how they are dealing with organized crime. We are advised that the changes will result in more efficient and effective deployment of law enforcement services as a result.

With the RCMP, that agency has identified organized crime as a very high priority, and, indeed, on a national level Manitoba is par ticipating in the development of more effective modem strategies to deal with this challenge. The RCMP, as part of that strategy, have actually gone so far as to name a deputy commissioner that is directed solely at the challenge of organized crime.

At the second level of Prosecutions, we have announced and, of course, I extensively des- cribed the Criminal Organization and High Risk Offender Unit, the 21-person unit in the Department of Justice to deal with the issue of criminal organizations, for one. So those are some of the recent de velopments. It is a very quickly changing area of both law enforcement and prosecution as well as victim and witness assistance as well as corrections.

Now, I do not want to assume nor imply in that answer that organized crime is alive and well or a dominant force in the current casinos in Manitoba, but I just answered that aspect of the question with regard to organized crime. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I recall from my days at the Cabinet table from some long ago briefings about the operation of gaming generally and the concern that Lotteries officials had had about organized crime, money laundering, et cetera, making its way into many of the private casino operations south of the border.

I know when the Crystal Casino was first established, and again, I am recalling briefings that Cabinet received and the security around that facility to ensure that it was being properly monitored, that any suspicious acts, the use of casinos from money laundering by clients, gamblers, et cetera was certainly a concern. But my thrust here is, of course, in the area of the private casino operators where, in the United States, not far away, we have heard of many allegations.

Some of them proven, some of them not, of these private casino companies and managers who have managed casinos for First Nations communities, having ties to being involved with organized crime, using these facilities for money laundering eff orts, et cetera. The concern, of course, is that if the same companies or same scenarios are established in Manitoba, what kind of steps or concerns will he as Minister of Justice and his department have to ;ns ure that this does not happen? If I may just jump ahead of myself a little bit, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) has indicated that agreements will have to be negotiated that we are now likely going to see an implementation process, and one of the concerns or questions that the public will have is what kinds of

June 8, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2345 safeguards, checks, balances are going to be in place to ensure the same private casino operators are not replicating the issues we have seen south of the border? And. as a minister of Justice, surely I would hope, knowing this minister of Justice, I would fully expect that he will want to be at the table to ensure that these agreements and the Premier has intimated there may in fact be legislation coming to govern the operation of these casinos.

What kind of thought today is his department giving to its input into this process in the weeks and months ahead, and I would say to the Minister of Justice, given that his government has not indicated in any way that these facilities would be audited by the Provincial Auditor, nor would there be value for-money audits in this process.

What other kinds of safeguards is he contemplating today in his department that they will be going to the table with in the negotiations that the Premier has said will be getting underway in the implementation process to ensure that we do not have this problem in Manitoba, and that the citizens of our province, that First Nations peoples who are supposedly the beneficiary of these facilities are not going to find that they are seeing many dollars disappearing into purposes for which they were never intended?

So I am asking today, I know we have not started that process, but what is the Minister and his department contemplating they will be bringing to the table for those upcoming negotiations and implementations? Mr. Mackinto sh: It is at a very, very early stage of the development of this process, and we certainly as a department are open to working in consultation with AMC or the lead departments on this matter, and if any concerns are raised, I am sure the Department will be as responsive as it was in the development of casinos that are currently in place in Manitoba. Mr. Praznik: Well, Mr.

Chair, I would just point out that there is a very significant difference. The casinos that currently exist in Manitoba are managed by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, which is a Crown corporation. As the Minister well knows, it is not a private entity. In the proposals that the Government accepted with less than 24 hours of study, each of those proposals brings with it an operator who are private organizations. Two of them, I believe, are to be managed by the Saskatchewan Government Indian Gaming Commission.

Three of the others, it is proposed, are going to be managed by private operators, and it does not identify even where they are from, other than one being from North Dakota. So we do not know who they are; the public does not know who they are. We do know that there is a reputation coming out of what has happened south of the border in First Nations gaming with private operators having, in some cases, ties to organized crime, using those facilities for illegal purposes. Sometimes these are not proven, sometimes there is suspicion, sometimes they have been proven.

We know that when large amounts of unaccounted-for money are available, I do not care who one is, it attracts a criminal element. It attracts temptation. We do know that his administration has indicated that they would not be providing for a full provincial audit of the operations that are taking place. We have asked for that as part of the safety check. We would strongly recommend the use of the Provincial Auditor. We would strongly recommend the management to the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. We would strongly recommend value-for-money audits of the end use.

These have been, it appears to be, rejected by his Premier to date, so we are asking then, what other types of safeguards is his department contemplating going in to those negotiations, to ensure that we are not having with these private casino operators that his government is accepting the kind of things happen that we have seen happen to some degree south of the border?

I think this is a very legitimate area, and because the public now knows from his Premier's remarks that we will be getting into these negotiations, I think the public would like to know what kind of safety checks are available to be negotiated into this. I, of course, would argue the use of the Provincial Auditor one. That appears to be rejected. So I would like to get a handle, and I am sure thousands of Manitobans, particularly First Nations people, on whose behalf this is being pursued, would also like to know. So I am not asking for in stone today, but I would like to know what kinds of tools are

2346 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 available to the Minister to ensure that we do not have these things happen. I am only asking because I think the public would like to know, Mr. Chair. * (15:20) Mr. Mackintos h: Issues about the mechanisms to be put in place with regard to Aboriginal casinos should rightly be put to the Minister responsible who will be working in partnership with AMC and representatives. It is, I think, important though that there not be just an assumption that Aboriginal casinos in Manitoba will be run by or be controlled or may be related to organized crime.

That is, I think, a jump that is likely not fair nor I do not think should be just taken as a given. In terms of the Justice Department, we certainly are available to provide advice on matters relating to any charges or investigations perhaps that could lead to charges being laid. We certainly are available to law enforcement agencies for that and if there are any specific requests to provide that assistance which would be through the Prosecutions branch, we certainly would be will ing to do that. Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr.

Chair, I would agree with the Minister that one should not just be making an assumption if one has factual information and I would think that anybody who is going to be granted, as Mr.

Freedman described it the other day in the press conference, the privilege of operating a casino, not the right but the privilege of operating a casino, the opportunity to take from Manitobans and visitors to our province, I would expect some visitors, literally millions of dollars with very little cost around that, to have that privilege, I think there is an obligation that security checks, all of those things be in place so that the public does not have that suspicion.

What I am asking today and I appreciate and I will be there to put these questions very clearly to the Minister responsible for the Gaming Commission in this province, for the Lotteries Corporation as well in their Estimates, I will want to have those same questions for them, but I am asking the Minister of Justice, who has in his department a wealth of experience and contacts to national policing organizations across North America, given that his government has not committed to the Provincial Auditor, not committed to value-for-money audits, has not been forthcoming with a lot of the questions that the public, First Nations people have in this area, I am asking today not for specifics, but I am asking today for a sense of the kinds of tools, whether it be First Nations casinos, private operators, whenever the gambling is being managed out of the purview of a public corporation, then I am asking him what are the kinds of tools his department would recommend be included in any agreements or any legislation that are going to give them as law enf orcement people, as prosecutors, they would have confidence, that the public would have confidence that everything is on the up and up, that is it being done as it is said it is being done.

So I appreciate his difficulty with other ministers, but I am curious to know what kinds of tools his department, with their great wealth of experience, would recommend? What should the public be looking for in those negotiations, in those agreements, in proposed legislation, to give the public, First Nations people the confidence that things that we have seen and heard happen in the United States are not going to happen here?

I am not asking for things to be written in stone, but as a critic I would like to know what tools are out there that are available to us that we should be looking for to see in those agreements. That is the kind of advice I am looking for from the Minister of Justice and his staff today. Mr. Mackin tosh: I think the questions really surround the ambit of management issues that will be part of the consideration of the implementation committee process and the partnership work between the Province of Manitoba and the AMC.

I trust that those management issues will be considered in light of experiences elsewhere, whether in Saskatchewan or south of the border, and presumably there will be some expertise in terms of how to best manage these kinds of facilities as a result of the experiences elsewhere that can be shared in Manitoba. In terms of the role of Prosecutions, it is, of course, to prosecute charges laid by the police and to assist the police in formulating those charges. But, in terms of how the structure of the casino operations will function, I would

June 8, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2347 urge the Member to solicit that with the Minister responsible. Mr. Praznik: I appreciate that other ministers have responsibility here, and we will be asking them these questions when we are in their Estimates to ensure that we get answers for the public. But I would ask the Minister- An Honour able Member: There are no Estimates for Lotteries, Darren. You have to go to the standing committee. Mr. Praznik: Well, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lemi eux), though, does have Estimates, and he is responsible for the Gaming Commission.

Although that minister chooses not to answer questions in the House, we hope he will answer them. I would hope the Minister responsible for the Lotteries Corporation (Ms. McGifford}-you know, she sort of smugly dismisses this, but it is a concern to the public. My advice to the Government is that, if they want to find that they have success with this project-and I say this to the Minister responsible for Lotteries-that it is imp ortant to be up front with this. The public would like to know. First Nations people would like to know. What are the safeguards? What are the protections?

She, of all people, should know, having been in Manitoba politics for some time, that there have been a number of First Nations communities where members of those communities have levelled charges against chiefs and administrators for misuse of funds, where we have seen money that was intended for the use of families, women, children in those communities, spent for unauthorized purposes. So those questions are there. I would have thought she, of all people, would have wanted to ensure that proper saf eguards are in place.

Perhaps, with the lure of Cabinet office, one abandons one's principles, but that is regrettable. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice and I appreciate his situation here-in his opinion, the opinion of his department, if not one of the key methods of ensuring that a private casino operator is, in fact, doing his job, living up to his agreements, is a full public audit by the Provincial Auditor. Is that not, would he agree with me, a good tool that engenders public confidence in the administration of an agreement with a private casino operator? * (15:30) Mr.

Mackintos h: Now that is an area that should best be put to the Minister responsible. In terms of what the implementation committee process will be, and how it will prove in its outcome, that has yet to be seen. The particular opinion of a particular minister is really, I do not think, perhaps that interesting to the Member, as much as the opinion of the government and, initially at least, the direction of the responsible minister that can be elicited through questioning of that minister. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, the Attorney General of the province is a Cabinet minister like none other.

He has a responsibility that goes well above that of other colleagues in terms of being the chief administrator of justice and the law in the province. What I am trying to ask from him a very simple question-th is will be the first time that we have had private casinos in Manitoba, and a very simple question: Would not the auditing of the books of those casinos, and their operations, by a public official, the Provincial Auditor, who is responsible to the Legislative Assembly-would that not be an effective tool in ensuring the proper conduct and operations of those facilities?

It would be a proper tool in ensuring that dollars were spent where they were agreed to be spent. I am asking his opinion as the chief law enforcement officer whether or not this would be a good tool. Mr. Mackinto sh: Whether that particular option is the best tool, I am not in a position currently to determine. I would like to see what the range of options might be. I would like to hear what the views of other partners in this process are and, as well, have a discussion in the context of my colleagues in Cabinet and caucus, and come to a determination that way. That is the best way to answer that question.

There is a process, of course, in government for considering options. I am attracted, of course, to providing an answer

2348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 in that context. So it really depends, I think, on the range of options. I look forward to that consideration in the near future. Mr. Praznik: I appreciate that there are options. I am asking if the Minister can tell me what those options are, and why this one would or would not be an effective tool. What is concerning me, Mr.

Chair, from the comments of the Minister about this being a discussion with the other parties, a discussion within the political process of a caucus, within the political process of a government, about deals that we can cut with partners, about how we are going to monitor this-this is a question about public trust, about ensuring that people live up to the commitments that they make. As Minister of Justice, as he wells knows, he has taken a step in accepting his responsibility in accepting his oath of office. He has taken a step away from that political deal-cutting process that his colleagues may be involved in.

He has taken a position of being responsible for the adminis tration of the law, and the law in Canada and in Manitoba puts certain restrictions and requirements around gaming. It has certain expectations. It certainly would not want to be part of supporting any criminal element having an opportunity to get in through the appointment of a private casino manager.

So I am asking him, I asked him initially, could he give us a sense from his department what the range of tools might be to give to the process of ensuring that we do not have any problems, that we do not have organized crime entering our province through these private casinos, that the beneficiaries of these casinos are, in fact, getting what they believe they should be getting? So I asked him initially: What are the range, what are the kinds of tools that are being contemplated by his department to be advising the other min isters as part of those negotiations?

If he would do that, I have raised one that would appear to the public to be a very solid tool, the use of the Provincial Auditor to audit those books. It is done in the province of Saskatchewan. Their Auditor, in fact, has been somewhat critical of the Saskatchewan Indian Gaming Authority on some of their practices. That is in their recent Auditor's report, and the result is they have things they have to improve. But the beauty of that is, of course, it is public.

The people know, the Fi rst Nations people know that it is not some hidden deal being made with just some people benefiting to the detriment of others, with characters who may be involved in organized crime participating in this process. So Saskatchewan has used the Provincial Auditor as a tool. In fact, the Auditor has even gone to the step now of recommending that they have the authority to have value-for-money audits on how dollars are spent. So this is very real.

These are tools that are being used in the neighbouring jurisdiction, and I am asking the Attorney General of the Province of Manitoba, the chief law enforcement officer, the person who will be responsible to ensure that what is supposed to happen happens. I am not asking the Member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) as a politician. I am not asking the Member of the Executive Council as a deal cutter. I am asking the Attorney General of the Province of Manitoba as the chief law enforcement officer of this province.

What are the tools that the public should be looking for to be worked into this agreement to ensure that there is public accountability, that these agreements are operating within the Criminal Code and that all of us can sleep at night, that Fi rst Nations people who are supposedly to be the beneficiaries of these dollars, are, in fact, having happen what is supposed to happen? If we do not know what those tools are, if we do not know our Attorney General has given some thought, his department has given some thought as to what those tools should be, how can we have any confidence?

How can First Nations people have any confidence that these casinos will, in fact, be operated as legitimate, honest operations doing what they, in fact, were intended to do and are publicly accountable in a transparent fashion? So I ask him, I beseech him today to give us a sense of those tools and what his thinking is on those tools.

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA . 2349 Mr. Mackinto sh: Well, beyond the issues in the Freedman and Nadeau report which starts off by requiring successful proponents to agree to certain auditing, the requirement for operating agreements with the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation on the issues of accountability for casinos is a matter that is within the competence of the Minister respons ible for Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lem ieux), and, as well, the Mini ster of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) has been involved.

So whether and by what means management tools will be put in place to ensure accountability is best put to those min isters, because, essentially, I understand the thrust of the question is what management and accountabili ty tools will be developed. But, again, I conclude by saying it would appear to be a matter that is developing, and whether advice is required from Civil Legal Services or the Prosecutions branch or any other divisions in the department, we certainly will be available.

It would be my understanding that Civi l Legal Services will continue to provide advice which may deal with the matters raised by the Member. * (15: 40) Mr. Praznik: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice as the Minister of Justice for the province: Will he be involved in advising his colleagues the Minis ter responsible for Lotteries (Ms. McGifford), the Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lemieux), the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson), will he be taking a role in advising his colleagues on the types of checks and balances and tools that must be in place in this agreement in order to ensure public accountability for the dollars that are flowing through these private casinos, or is the Minister telling this committee today that he is abrogating his responsibil ity, will not participate in this process and just provide legal services as the master of a law firm? Mr.

Mackinto sh: If there is any advice or information sought from the Department, whether through legal services, whether it is through the Prosecutions branch or Constitutional Law branch, we are willing and able to provide that advice as the Member knows there are some provisions in the Criminal Code that may bear on the implem entation process, and we certainly would provide that service as a department. If, at the political level, there are issues that would require or would benefit from opinions or expertise in the Department, I will certainly ensure that that is obtained. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Chair, the Freedman report says that "As required by the Criminal Code of Canada and The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act it is a requirement that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation conduct and manage gaming as defined in the Criminal Code of Canada at the proposed casinos." Now, I would like to ask him and his staff how they interpret that: conduct and manage gaming to fit in with the hiring of private managers who could be drawing 30 percent of the proceeds. I mean, where do each of these roles fit in?

I want to ask him, how does his Prosecutions branch, what tests would they be looking for to ensure that the MLC pursuant to the law is managing and conducting gaming in these casinos when each of these casinos has a management contract or proposal that has come forward? I am trying to understand the system that would work. So I ask him as the chief law administrator of the province who is responsible for the Prosecutions branch, how would the Prosecutions branch view management relationships to fit within the existing Criminal Code of Canada and Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act? Mr.

Mackinto sh: If an opinion is sought from legal counsel to this process from Civil Legal Services, I am confident that the advice would be provided, and it would be good advice. In terms of the Prosecutions branch, the police are the ones, of course, that would pursue any investigation, and we refer evidence and charges to the Prosecutions branch. At that time the Prosecutions branch would certainly consider any of the information that was brought to the Department's attention in that way.

At the same time, if the police became aware of a situation which could be criminal in nature, the Prosecutions branch could provide advice and opinion to the Law Enforcement Agency to

2350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 ensure that the charges are in accord with the evidence in the Criminal Code. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, we are about to see his colleagues enter into negotiations with the Assembly of Manitoba Chief s and five consortiums of operators, each of whom has a private manager that they are going to work with to establish and manage five new casinos in the province of Manitoba. The law says that they must be, according to the report that the government put out, conducted and managed by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation.

So what I am looking for is someone who is a member of this Legislature who is going to be watching this happen over the next number of weeks or months or what have you. I am looking to the Minis ter of Justice today to give me a sense of the parameters by which five private casino operators, managers are going to be able to operate within the scope of the law. I am not looking for every exact point, but I would like to get some framework here to know what is going to govern the operations. Or is the Minister responsible for Lotteries just going to bumble into this?

The Minister responsible for gaming bumble into this and come up with something and then find out after that they are being prosecuted because they broke the law? Surely to goodness, they have to operate within some param eters. I am just trying to get a sense today because you have your excellent staff here who have had to deal with this issue in past days around other gaming activity and other communities that have brought in machines and set up casino operations. I remember those days.

I am just trying to get a sense of what are the parameters within which his colleagues can negotiate without fear of being in breach of the Criminal Code. Mr. Mackin tosh: The Department certainly, if it is asked by either client departments of Civil Legal or other departments of government ask for advice on criminal matters, we will be more than pleased to do the necessary research, look to determine what experience has developed in Manitoba and perhaps elsewhere and provide that information back to the person or the department that has requested that information.

In terms of those management issues and the role of the Auditor and any options with regard to the opera ting agreement with the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation and auditing, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs would have the responsibilit y and the answers for the Member. Mr.

Praznik: I would hate to think that if I came here today and asked if I saw the Minis ter's briefcase, and I picked up the briefcase and I walked out, knowing it was not mine, and I take it with me, that he would not be prepared to give me advice that I would be committing theft, that I could not get that advice from him as the Attorney General of the Province of Manitoba. Is it just simply because this matter is so politically sensitive? Is it simply because his colleagues are trying to hide behind an independent report? Is it simply because there has been some secret deal cut that they are trying to implement?

I do not know, but I must say I am a little disappointed that the Mini ster cannot today at least give us, in the general sense, the parameters under which a private casino operator could be brought in to operate a casino and sti ll be within the laws that now stand. I think this is going to have to be out there. The public wants to know. It is a contradiction, so it has to be talked about. Mr. Chair, I have two colle agues who have joined me in Estimates, the Member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) and the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). The Member for Portage (Mr.

Faurschou) has some questions arising around the factum and the case that was in fact provided. I believe the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) has some questions, and if the committee would indulge them, I am going to allow them some time because we are trying to juggle between committees. I will be back to pursue the same line when they have completed. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe the Member for Portage La Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) would like to address the Commit tee. * (15: 50) Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Chair, I believe the Minister of Justice is

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 235 1 familia r with the case that resulted from dispute between members of the Waterhen First Nation's band. Currently the persons that were dislodged from that First Nation's reserve are continuing their legal battle in front of the Supreme Court of Canada next week. I am wondering if the Minister could tell me how well versed he is in the current situation as this emanates from the provincial judicial system that found a number of persons guilty of Criminal Code offences. Mr.

Mackintos h: This is a matter that of course is very much an issue before the courts and indeed the highest court in the land. The role of the Attorney General, as I am sure the Member appreciates, is not to interfere or appear to interfere in a particular case.

The role of the Attorney General does include general direction in terms of policy directives, prosecution policy, as well as funding, of course, of prosecutions and working with our counterparts in other jurisdictions in Canada to make amendment to the Criminal Code or make improvements otherwise, and as well, to look at how criminal procedure can be improved. Therefore, I have to be extremely careful.

I am in a different position than the other members, I am the only one in this position, not to be in any way seen to give direction to Prosecutions branch or prosecutors or be seen to be attempting to influence, judge or indeed even counsel on the other side. So having said that, all I can do is provide just information that is public to the Member, I think the Member will understand that, and the information that I have from the factums that have been distributed. So that is done without any argument or any interjection about the strengths or relative weaknesses of those arguments.

We provide the factum of the appellants and the respondent to the Member. The Prosecutions branch and ADM and the Deputy have just pointed out to page 5 in the factum of the appellants that sets out the points at issue. The first one is that the Court of Appeal for Manitoba erred in ruling that there was no bias or reasonable apprehension of bias on the part of the trial judge, such as to render his hearing of the trial incompatible with the principles of matter of a fundamental justice.

The second being that the Court of Appeal for Manitoba erred in denying the appellants an adjournment for the purposes of formally bringing in a motion to admit new evidence to the said court to further establish a reasonable apprehension of bias on part of the trial judge. Those points at issue, of course, then provide the framework within which the parties will argue their case before the Supreme Court of Canada. If there are any other questions that are not apparent on the face of the factums, I will endeavour to obtain that information from staff here. Mr.

Faurschou: I appreciate the sensitivity of this particular case. I was just interested, though, as to the progress of it through the Crown counsel. To the Minister's knowledge, the resources are being dispatched to Ottawa to in fact argue the position that was previously held. There was to just a recent date, no argument provided by Crown counsel, and I am wondering if this has now changed. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the hearing, I under stand, is indeed next week in the Supreme Court of Canada.

In addition to the factum provided by Prosecutions branch and filed with the court, Gregg Lawlor, who is a senior prosecutor with the Prosecutions branch, will be travellin g to Ottawa and will be presenting argument. The argument will be that which is set out in the factum of the respondent. Mr. Faurschou: Forgive me for showing that I do not have, and I am not in the possession of, the factum that has been provided by Crown. I only have the appellant's factum, so forgive me for asking questions that perhaps were answered in that document.

So understanding then that they will in fact, on June 15, of next week, have the opportunity for that hearing and that both positions will be argued, I think I perhaps will leave that specific point. However, I want to revert back to when in fact this whole case took place. We, and I am saying as elected officials, are certainly not involved in any of the actual court proceedings, but I am wondering if the Attorney General could, because it is his department that provides resources to Legal Aid. How in fact individuals that are completely without resources, ones that

2352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 have been dislodged from their residence with not more than their clothes on their back, can be considered nonqualifying for legal aid? It was clearly documented that they entered into this particular legal battle with no supports, and as far as other government agencies, one is very clearly spelled out that had no resources, and were completely dependent upon the state to provide for their daily requirements. Mr.

Mackintosh: The legal aid system in Manitoba is governed first by statute and as well by a board that is appointed by the Government, and the board has a certain amount of discretion. When it comes to the ability of an individual to apply and receive assistance through Legal Aid, there is a process in place whereby an application and a fee is paid. Where there is dissatisfaction with the outcome, for example, if the application is denied, there are avenues of appeal ultimately to the actual Legal Aid Society or the board itself, I understand. Mr.

Faurschou: Well, it is indeed a complicated situation because I know that Legal Aid had started out in support and then there were different counsels appointed that ultimately withdrew for varied reasons and particular arguments of conflict of interest. It is extremely hard for even a person of legal background to comprehend, let alone someone that does not have that training. But it is to me unconscionable to consider individ uals having to represent themselves on such serious matters without the avenue of legal counsel.

Whether these appeals were exhausted or whether they were even known to the individ uals is something that I am wondering whether the Attorney General is very clear in the premise in support of Legal Aid that the appeal mechanism is clearly spelled out to individuals that perhaps are denied at the outset. *( 16 :00) Mr. Mackinto sh: I believe that every time a decision is made by Legal Aid, there is advice to the applicant as to how a further appeal can be advanced. Now, if there is a particular situation where Legal Aid did not agree to fund legal assistance, that can be brought to the attention of the board.

I do not know if there is a live issue here, someone that is currently in need of legal assistance and is under charge. It would be important to know whether the individual was actually under charge and what the circum stances were. Of course, as Minister, it is not as responsible for the Prosecutions branch. There is a division of responsibil ity there. That is why the Board of Legal Aid has the decision-making power in the case. If the Member has specif ic information about an indivi dual applicant, that should go to the Board. I know, as an MLA, that we have referred people from time to time to the Board.

I know that MLAs sometimes assist people in helping to draft their application and their appeals. If the Member has more information in that regard, I know there are people there that would want to help, at least in terms of the process issues. Mr. Faurschou: I thank the Minister for his response. I am not clear as to whether the individ uals which are named in this particular factum, whether they were referred to the Board for an appeal for representation or not. So I will leave that particular subject. My honourable colleague from Charleswood has some questions that she would like to follow up on as well.

However, I would like to have the opportunity to return to this once I have had an opportunity to review the Crown's factum at a later time. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charl eswood): I un derstand we are approaching this from a global basis so that I am allowed to ask questions in different areas. I guess the first one, a very short one, would be to ask the Minister what his views are toward community policing. Mr. Mackintosh: One of the first expressions of Justice policy by myself when I was elected as Justice critic was to indicate support for the concept of commun ity-based policing.

We had looked at the models that have been developed elsewhere. In Canada, of course, one of the predominant models was in the city of Edmonton. I had discussions with Chris Braden, who was one of the progenitors of commun ity based policing in that city, and had some readings on that and had discussions with a number of indivi duals, including community people. It was thought at that time that this was

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2353 the right way to go. I know subsequently in the United States President Clinton brought in a major initiative which became known as Clinton cops to spur the growth of community-based policing. In Winnipeg, we have had, I think, some very positive growth of community-based policing. I know when we look at that model, there are sometimes arguments that develop as to what community-based policing really means. In my mind, it means that an officer is assigned to a particular neighbourhood.

Sometimes that officer is then referred to as the ownership officer in the sense that that individual will have responsibil ity for matters that arise in that particular community, with some obvious exceptions. There is still a need for what I call 91 1 justice, or responding to crimes after they are comm itted. The other element of the concept is for proactive policin g, where the police officer is actually involved in working with the community, knowing the hot spots. Often the calls for police assistance come from very few residences in a community.

Where an officer can be attuned to that, know where people, for example, on probation may live, know people who are at greater risk of criminal behaviour, they can then take a role in trying to stop crime before it happens. As well, I know that partnerships can develop between elements in the community, whether they are schools or community centres, whether it is a justice comm ittee. Edmonton has developed a model that also has the community service centres, which is an element in Winnipeg's policing model, but that has expanded to other jurisdictions in Canada.

I think it has become quite popular, although the models vary somewhat. I think the challenge for government is to work with law enforcement agencies to encourage that model of policing, recognizing that there has to be acceptance of that by those who would be commun ity-based police officers as well as the general population. I know outside of the city of Winnipeg, the RCMP has developed as a philosophy the commun ity-based model and is making some positive steps in this direction.

The answer to the question is that we support community-based policing and we hope to build on experiences and help to encourage the greater reliance on that model. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, Charleswood has been very fortunate to have what we call a Community Police office. I belie ve there mi ght be two of these offices, this type of office, in the city. I am assuming we mi ght have inherited one because our district is such a large district, encompassing a lot of Fort Garry and River Heights and Charleswood.

We have recently found out, and there is quite a lot of concern in our community, that the Community Police office is closing down for the summer, we have been told, due to a manpower shortage. I wonder if the Minister has any knowledge of this. Mr. Mackintos h: That would be an issue, of course, within the ambit of the City of Winni peg and the City of Winnipeg Police Service. That would be, I presume, a matter of vacation scheduling or resourcing issues internal to that level of government. Mrs. Driedger: I do understand that this might be a common procedure that could be happening.

We have been Jed to believe that at this point in time the Community Police office may not reopen in the fall. I guess with the commitment that our previous government made to community policing and funding more officers for community police with designated funding for that, if this closure of a Commu nity Police office fits at all into the previous funding that we had comm itted to and, I understand, that this government has comm itted to. Mr.

Mackintos h: The change in administration at the provincial level has not made any difference to the commit ment to the City of Winnipeg Police Service in terms of funding community officers. So, this would appear to be a matter of management of the Winnipeg Police Service, a matter of their priorities. I do not know anything beyond that. As well, of course, the political accountability of the City of Winnipeg Police Service is through a comm ittee of City Council and ultimately to the Mayor and Council of the City of Winnipeg.

In terms of my only advice-and I trust the Member will appreciate this; she does have a concern about

2354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 2000 that, because I would have that concern as well in my communit y-she should raise that with the Chief of Police initially and perhaps through her area councillor. The chair of the protection commit tee may be another focus of the Member's concerns, and I would urge that. Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister could tell me if he has any ongoing discussions with the City in terms of their commitment to community policing.

Does that ever come up as a specific item in meetings that are held, and if the Minis ter would be prepared to, at his level, follow up on-1 guess what I am wondering about is the City's comm itment to these Community Police offices on a long-standing commitment. * (16:10 ) Mr. Mackinto sh: I would be prepared to raise this matter with the chair of the committee who is my counterpart in the City of Winnipeg and the Chief of Police.

In terms of the Charleswood offices, I suspect that there is a meeting coming up soon on that, or soon on a number of issues; as well, I would be interested in determining whether there is any pattern there, but, just as a point of information, recognizing that these are two different political systems and orders of government. If there is any information there that could be of value to the Member in accounting to her constituents, I will pass that on. In terms of the general question, we have had ongoing discussions about policing in general, and models of policing. Perhaps that answers the question. Mrs.

Driedger: I thank the Minister very much for his will ingness to do that, and I certainly look forward to hearing what the City might respond to that. I am also trying to find out from the City specifically what is happening, too. There is certainly a bit of sensitivity in Charleswood right now. We are not used to gunshots being fired in that part of town. With the recent situation that has happened there on an afternoon, we certainly have some concerns.

We certainly have our issues of crime, and crime in the suburbs is certainly an issue that is one that I think we all need to take heed of because not only do we see crime in the core area, crime is certainly an issue that happens throughout all of the city. I certainly do appreciate the Minis ter's will ingness to address that. I would like now to move on to a different topic, if I might.

I was interested and pleased to see that Manitoba is going to lead a campaign urging the federal government to introduce Criminal Code amendments to combat Internet pedophiles, a topic, a subject matter, I guess, that I have been particularly interested in. Coming from my background at Child Find, the whole issue of exploitation of children is one that has kept me very busy for about 12 years. I would like to ask the Minister where Manitoba is in addressing this issue, how long we have been involved, or how long his government has been invnlved in looking at this and what it encompasses. Mr.

Mackinto sh: First of all, I just want to say that I sure appreciate the attention by one local media outlet on this issue. I think that is very important to develop community support for initiatives that we are pursuing. I raised this issue actually with the RCMP the other day in terms of emphasizing how this is such a critical area and so new and so challenging, because of course the Internet knows no provincial boundaries, let alone national boundaries.

As well, when people are using this system of communi cation or information and need not be identified, it poses challenges unthinkable only a decade or two ago. Now, a key focus of the media attention has been the need for criminal law to prohibit the activity of sex of fenders luring children via the Internet. Now, luring is one form of sexual exploitation, but there are other forms as well that can be used on the Internet. But in terms of luring specifically, and that is where I think the Member is concentrating, the issue of Internet technology, the law of course encompasses a wide range of issues.

If it is the inability of the law to deal with it, well, then we have to get working on it, because when it comes to child ren we have to prioritize our attention. Governments and justice agencies have to consider this need for legislative intervention, I believe. As well, I think there must be training for justice and law enforcement officials on

June 8, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2355 technology and its potential use in criminal offences. We recognize that there is also value in enhancing the knowledge of parents for effective parental supervision or supervision by other agencies, whether it is schools, libraries. But in terms of the specific mandate of the Justice Department under criminal law, there is a co ordinating committee of senior officials that is examining offensive content on the Internet, which includes a subcommittee specifically on luring. Glen Lewis of the Justice Department represents Manitoba on this committee.

A meeting of federal, provincial and territorial officials is being planned for late June to develop strategies to address the issue. An options paper is going to be brought forward in the fall to determine whether legislative amendments should be recommended to deputies. We support legislative intervention. I think that has been made clear publicly. We also support the need for an in-depth action plan that is comprehensive to counter Internet-based offences. Manitoba, though, will also be preparing a resolution on luring to be presented earlier.

That is at the Uniform Law Conference that will be held this summer. The need for federal action on this issue is critical, as children and families remain vulnerable to manipulation and potential victimization by sex offenders using the Internet to access child victims. It is absolutely sickening.

I cannot imagine how this kind of evil can exist in the community, let alone any offences against children, but to be sending offensive material exploiting children who are using this new technology, they are excited about it, they are using chat rooms and these other developments, and then along comes this kind of heinous activity, is just unbelievable. Manitoba will be pressing the federal government to adopt legislative provisions which would be in the Criminal Code, I presume, to address this.

We are also urging the federal government to engage in consultations with the private sector to address the responsibility of Internet service providers and others who have a role to prevent this kind of criminal activity. So it is important that we play I think a very active and vocal role in the Canadian Federation to move the federal government on this one, recognizing that the larger the jurisdiction the better. Since there is the federal government that we have access to, it is a good place to start. Hopefully, we can lead to international agree ments and so on.

As well, Public Prosecutions in Manitoba has designated two prosecutors to deal with Internet-based offences targeting children, which is not just a matter of a staffing issue, but this will develop expertise within the Prosecutions branch in this new area. This is a very, I think, innovative and responsible development. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair * (16:20) We are also participating on an ov.eraH governmental cross-departmental committee on the protection of children on-line.

This ad hoc committee brings together officials from key departments to begin to address the specific issues of preventing exploitation of children via the Internet. We will also be examining the ability for legislative and nonlegislative action at the provincial level, because it is not enough simply to ask the federal government to move on this one in a criminal way and not enough simply to look across departments at policy change, but also I have had discussions with the Law Reform Commission suggesting that they consider this as an area for study.

I recognize their independence, but we suggested that they could have a role here in a leading edge area. As well, we have had discussions with the Community Notification Advisory Committee, which deals with the public disclosure of sex offenders who pose a risk to the public. I might add that Rob Finlayson, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Prosecutions, has been involved in working with other community organization

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-42b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 42b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ad4b146c93910188ef65adba7d95b59664726c0c

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