PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. February 18, 1977

_ February 18, 1977. 'Tape 388, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if this is the appropriate time but I would like to bring to the attention of th~ hon. House the appointment of a very distinguished citizen of St. John's, a very personal friend of mine, a former member of the House, a former councillor,to a very important post as Judge of the Citizenship Court. I think it is the first time that one has been appointed in Newfoundland.

I do not know what the procedure is, Sir, Whether I should move -congratulations. I feel that the appointment of Jeff Carnell should be recognized by the members of this House because of his service as a community-minded citizen of the City of St. John's,and a great Newfoundlander. I would like to place on the record of the Rouse our congratulations on his appointment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, those of us on this side of the Rouse, whether in the Chamber at present or not, would certainly wish to be associated with the sentiments expressed by the Minister of Consumer Affairs, the gentleman from St. John's Centre. Mr. Carnell, I am not sure whether he is Judge Carnell in the sense: but Mr. Carnell the Judge of the Citizenship Court, is a distinguished citizen of this city and a long time friend and, I may add, neighbour of mine. We lived next door to each other for a number of years on a street here in St. John's. AN RON. MEMBER: Allan Square? MR.

ROBERTS: Well, no, both of us had come a little 1058

February 18, 1977, Tape 388, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: distance from Allan Square,! say to the hon. gentleman. It was a street called Pringle Place, named after, I believe, the Colonel in the Royal Engineers who participated in the last duel held in Newfoundland. The gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) could probably enlighten us on that point. But .. Mr. Carnell, Mr. Speaker, is a distinguished citizen of this city. He has served the public in a number of capacities; as a member of this House for four years, representing the old district of St.

John's North, as a member of the City Council, I believe for four consecutive terms totalling sixteen years, and carrying on a tradition which had been established by his father,the late Mayor ~drew G. Carnell, and Mr. Carnell in p~ivate life. and community life has distinguished himself in a number of ways. I think it is an admirable appointment and I think he will add distinction to a new office; it is the first time we have had a citizenship Judge in this Province.

I gather it is a reflection of the new procedures which are set forth in the new Citizenship Act which comes into effect - or it came into effectti should say,a few days ago, I believe on the anniversary of the proclamation of the present Canadiam Flag, the fifteenth day of February. It is a little sad in a way, I guess, the new Act is in because, Sir, we are no longer British Subjects as Canadian citizens; we are now citizens of the Commonwealth.and not automatically British subjects and that is another of the effects of the Act. But, Sir, we certainly join in the congratulations to Mr. Carnell.

We wish him well in his new duties. We know he will discharge them efficiently and with distinction. Mr. Speaker, while I am here perhaps I may say a word, I know I speak for all members of the Rouse, a word of congratulations to the Premier who is ~oday

February 18, 1977, Tape 388, Page 3 -- apb _/ MR. ROBERTS: celebrati.ng h;f.s own birthday., hiS/oWn anniversary, his birthday anniversary. We wish hiln manY more years of health and happiness, Sir, in whatever capacity he is called to be in in private or public: life. We wish him Happy Birthday, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. ·SPEAKER: The h~n. the Minister of Finance. 1060

·. ---~'' .· ........... .__ . __ .... February 18,1977 Tape 389 AH-1 MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring the hon. House up to date on the situation as it now exists at the Waterford Hospital. We are all aware, Sir, that late last night the union informed the hospital administration that starting at the 12 o'clock shift the union would be taking advantage of their legal right to strike due to the breakdown in negotiations between NAPE and the Waterford Hospital board and the Treasury Board.

It had been anticipated for some time, because the union had given legal notice that the possibility of a strike existed at the hospital today,and therefore there had been an emergency and continency plan into effect which will allow the hospital management to carry on in a strike situation. I should point out, Sir, that there are 500 employees in the NAPE bargaining •unit out of a total of 680 employees at ~he hospital. The nurses , the ~ and X-ray personne..l. are not tncluded in this bar2aining unit .and of course neither is the management.

All of these other oersonnel not in, the NAPE unit are expected t~ report to work as normal,and though appears not to be so in the case of the nurses, the hospital administration is taking the necessary action to insure that they can return to work. The hospital has stopped admitting new patients,and those patients than can be discharged are being discharged,either to their homes or to other institutions. Prior to the strike threat there were approximately 400 patients . . - - . ' in the hospital,and of this number about thirty now have been discharged bringing the patients numbers down to about 370.

The management at the hospital have been briefed and they are prepared to carry on essential services at the hospital, contingencj-plans h~ve also been prepared to maintain security on all the maximum security ~~ards. It is because of the existance of these wards that government has taken the action of requesting the presence of the Newfoundland Constabulary at the hospital to maintain public safety. The Constabulary,in discharging their responsibility of being the protector of public safety,have of course agreed to enter the institution,and to insure that those people who are working in 1061

February 18,1977 Tape 389 AH-2 MR. DOODY: the institution and also the patients in the institution are protected from any potential dangers which could arise under the circumstances. It is appalling to ~· Sir, personally,and I know to all the members of this hon~ House.that the general manager of NAPE, Mr. Locking)has publically branded the members of the Newfoundland Constabulary as strike breakers in this situation.

He has accused them of doing the work of the regular employees of the hospital and of breaking union solidarity by crossing the pickets lines to do so, This. charge cannot be allowed to be made without an absolute and direct contradiction from government, and without government expressing its complete support and faith in the Newfoundland Constabulary for carrying out what is their duty in a very, very, difficult situation. SOME RON. MIDfBERS : Hear, hear! · MR. DOODY: Mr.

Locking,or any other person in this province, can expect to be branded as a sensationalist and as a distorter of the true facts . if he suggests that the setting up of a picketline means that anybody who then crosses it will not be subject to police protection in a critical situation. I recognize that this is a very difficult strike,and I recognize that the situation existing at the hospital is far from ideal.

I also recognize, Sir, ' that it takes a great deal of personal fortitude on behalf of the Constabulary members to recognize their overall responsibility . ' to the general public, to the management, to the employees and above all to the patients of the Waterford Hospital and to cross the picket to uphold public safety. To allow them , Sir, to be criticized for this action, to allow them to be branded as strikebreakers would be a cowardly _ a_ct by any government. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1062

Februaay 18;1977 TApe 389 AH-3 MR. DOODY: It is my hope that the situation at Waterford will not be clouded by these atrocious accusations by Mr. Locking or any other member of NAPE. It is the responsability of this government to keep law and order and if as in the case of the Wat~r:ford Hospital the strick and · a picket line presents some threat to law and order then it is ?ur responsability through our police force to uphold it. Surely , Sir, no citizen of this province would deny that this is so. I call upon Mr.

Locking to withdraw his totally irresponsible remarks about the Newfoundland Constabulary and I call upon this hon. Hduse to give the Constabulary the vote of confidence that they deserve because of their action in this strike. SOME HON. MEmERS Hear, hear!

February 18, 1977 Tape 390 PK - 1 MR. DOODY: I also call, Mr. Speaker, upon NAPE to return to the bargaining table in an attempt to work out our ·differences over pensions at the Waterford Hospital,rather than placing the patients of the hospital in a situation of concern,of discomfort, of uncertainty, and indeed,Sir, of danger.

Government and the hospital board are willing to sit down at any time with the union with the objective of working out our differences, but we are ala.o, Sir, prepared to accept our responsibilities in negotiating contracts, and to protect the rights of the patients, in this case, where they are placed in a critical situation by the strike of the union, and are in no position, Sir, to protect themselves. We have a responsibility to the people of this Province, . -Mr.

Speaker, and we must stand firm to see that pe€ce, order and good government prevail, and that the health and the safety of the citizens of this Province take precedence over all other considerations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, let me say first of all that we on this side of the House a:gree, of cour~e, with the need to protect- I do not have the exact words of the Minister· of Finance- but to protect the interest of the patients at the Waterford Hospital, and we agree that must be the first interest in this instance. Mr. Speaker, the strike at the Waterford Hospital gives rise to an extraordinarily difficult situation. The .Minister - . of Finance has said that it is a lawful strike, lawful under laws of this Province.

The members of the bargaining unit,who happen to belong to NAPE in this case, are exercising rights conferred upon them in fact by

an Act of this Legislature. They are carrying out a lawful strike, and I may add, it is a foreseeable situation. I am not saying this particular strike was foreseen, but, of course, Sir, when we enacted this legislation, indeed I think if one were to check the Hansards one

February 18, 1977 Tape 390 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: would find references to this situation, you know, it is quite foreseeable that we could at some point face what we must now face, a lawful strike at a hospital which by its nature is different even from the other hospitals. That is one side of it, Sir. The other side, of course, is that the hospital has in its care several hundred patients, I believe the figure is a little under 400, the minister gave us, there are several hundred patients who are, in most cases, unable to care for themselves.

That. of course, is the reason why they are receiving the particular and specialized types of treatment which are afforded the patients at the Waterford Hospital. Sir, it is a very difficult situation, and I think we must above all in this situation be very, very careful, that we do not let our hearts rule our heads, that we do not let emotionalism reign supreme. I had not heard Mr. Locking's statement accusing the members of the Constabulary of being strikebrea~ers I think it is certainly an unfortunate and regrettable statement. It adds nothing at all to the efforts to resolve this dispute.

Equally, Sir, I do not think the minister's statements add very much to the efforts to resolve and to settle this dispute. The minister may very well feel he has been-provoked by the prior statements; he may very 'well feel that he has to come to.the defence of the Constabulary who have no spokesman in this House, other than their employers. I do not doubt he may have both these feelings, and I could certainly understand if he had these feelings. Mr. Speaker, I am not so sure that the minister should have given in to them.

I am not so sure that getting in a slanging match,no matter how reasonable it is or how laudible it may be in a sense, I am not so sure, Sir, that will help in any way to lower the . temperatures to bring about a climate which could lead to negotiations, and thus in turn to a settlement. Sir, a strike,which is after all a normal part of the 1065

February 18, 1977 Tape 390 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: collective bargaining process that we have in this Province, it may not be the desirable part, but it is a perfectly normal part, Sir, of the collective bargaining process, a strike must be settled and it will be settled. And the only question, Sir, in this strike, as_ in any strike,is whether it is settled relatively amicably or whether it is settled only after a prolonged and difficult period. And statements, Sir, no matter how justified they may be in the eyes of the maker, statements such as Mr.

Locking -~is repor..ted to have made and as the minister made, in my view do not help at all. Mr. Speaker, I cannot get into a debate, and so I shall not, although. l think the afternoon would be well used if the government would permit Standing Order 23,or would move one themselves~ to allow the subject to be discussed in this House this afternoon.

I must say, I do not think I will bother moving one, Sir, because Your Honour, I think, would have to rule it out of order, unless the government choose to call it as a matter of government business, in which case perhaps we could very usefully spent the afternoon on the situation at the Waterford Hospital. But, Sir, I understand the problem, in part, 1066

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 391 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: is that the union have asked that the attendants at the hospital,who1are in daily contact with the so-called dangerous patients,be given a pension plan status comparable to that afforded to the employees of the penitentiary, the members of the Constabulary and the members of the St. John's Fire Department. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that is so.

I am told :f_t is so,and I certainly do not know the mer;t;_s of it, although I believe most of those attendants already get a degree of special protection in the sense they get the so-called danger pay-contact pay it is now called. It was danger pay in an earlier, less sophisticated era, Sir- ·and that may be an argument in favour of recognition of their particular point.

It is also significant, Sir, that when the attendants left on a lawful strike that the Police, with whom they sought to be equated on a pensionable status,had to be called in to take up their work and to protect the interests of the patients and of the public. Mr. Speaker, I do want .to say simply that it is an extraordinarily difficult situation, the first time we have ever faced this particular situation in this Province. We have had hospital strikes,but never one at the Waterford Hospital. I would hope, and my appeal would be this, that both sides, Mr.

Locking and NAPE on the one hand, and the minister and his officials on the other, Sir, would moderate their statements and would do what they could to bring about the climate of public opinion and the climate of opinion between the two parties in which negotiations can be carried out. Because, -Sir, this strike must be ended. It must be ended as quickly as it can be ended, but it will only be ended, Sir, if both sides come to the bargaining table to negotiate,and they can only 1067

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 391 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: negotiate, Sir, if t~ere is a satis-factory climate, a climate in which negotiations can be carried forward to success. So I sympathize with the minister, Sir. I think I understand what leads him to make these statements,but I regret be made them because I do not think they add anything at all. All he is doing, Sir, is playing the same game that apparently the other side is playing,and I do not think, Sir, that would help the public interest or the interest of the patients at Waterford Hospital. Having said that, Mr.

Speaker,· let me say simply that I would ask the Government House Leader whether he would be prepared to allow a Standing Order (23) at a quarter to four, whenever we hit the regular Orders of the Day, instead of the Throne Speech. I think it might be a very useful afternoon's debate here in the House, Sir. Perhaps we might broaden it to discuss the situation in Western Labrador, the ~ituation with respect to the municipal workers here in St. John's. The situations are not the same, each is unique,but I think, Sir, there is rising public conern about the situation and perhaps this House should reflect it.

I cannot move it. Sir, because I do not think it is in order as a Standing Order (23) procedure, in view of the fact the Address-in-Reply debate will presumably come on. I do think, Sir, it -would be an appropriate way for the government to act. They have control over the business,of - course. This is a non Private Members Day. If the government would agree to that I think it would be a very useful., a very useful thing indeed, Sir, if the House would puts its afternoon to that work, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! 1068

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 391 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a netition c..; __ on behalf of the voters of Island Harbour in _c!e~p Bay on Fogo Island. The petition is signed by 207 petitioners and the prayer of the petition is, "We the undersigned, voters =L of Island Harbour in Deep Bay, in the district of Fogo, hereby petition the Department of Transportation and Communications to have our roads sprayed with calcium this coming season." NM- 3 Now, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this petition I understand it is the intention of the De?artment of Highways to upgrade all of the gravel roads on Fogo Island. Hopefully this will be accomplished this year or early next year, after which then the paving equipment will move in and pave all the roads on Fogo Island. Sir, Fogo Island now is becoming a very important part of our economy. Fo~o Island is now becoming a productive area and yet, Sir, the modern facilities are very lacking on Fogo Island. It is not much that 10R9

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 392 Page 1 - mw Capt. Winsor. the people are asking for.In the interim while they are waiting _f5)r_pave~e~~-' they are requesting the Minister of Transportation, through him the government, to carry out the spraying of calcium to dampen the dust during the dusty period. And I think, Sir, in all fairness to the minister and his department,they are worthy of some praise for introducing this programme. I think it was started perhaps a year or two ago on the gravel roads, and I may add, Hr.

Speaker, next to pavement, I do not think there- is -anything else can take the place of keeping the dust down like calcium. It has proven very worth-while, and it has provided a lot of pleasure to a lot of people driving over those gravel roads, both on the mainland part of Fogo district, and on Fogo Islan~ itself. So I would ask the minister to be a little sympathetic from a very patient group of people. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions?

ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance, Sir. Could the ~inister confirm ot deny - a statement that was attributed to him in The Evening Telegram last night that the teachers' pension plan is not a negotiable item? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: You know, to be facetious, I guess, I could say, yes, I can either confirm it or deny it, but that is not my intent, Sir. I did not say that the teachers' pension plan was not a negotiable item.

It . has been on the table for some time, and they have been negotiating about it for some time. Everybody knows that. It is a matter of common knowledge. If that statement is attributed to me, and correctly, then I apologize for having said it. I do not remember having said it, because it obviously is not correct. The teachers' pension plan has been a 1070

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 392 Page 2 - mw Mr. Doody. subject of negotiations and discussions and deliberations, debate and concern for quite a number of days. MR. ReWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say, if I could, that these questions are not meant to be political or partisan in anyway whatsoever, because we are facing a serious situation if the 8,000 teachers decide to go on strike.

But would the }linister of Finance or the Minister of Education give this House some assurance that they would be willing to meet with the NTA to renegotiate this ~vhole business of the pension plan, because there is no immediate liability against that particular plan at the present time, MR. DOODY: MR. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: Get to your question- . Well, it is just a little

preamble, Mr. Speaker. The rule does clearly state that the han. gentleman may put in such information as is necessary to make the question intelligible. MR. ROWE: What I am asking the minister, Mr. Speaker, is whether - we are on the verge of a teachers' strike - whether to avert that he is ~villing to sit down with the teachers and set a time frame, set aside a time frame in which they could negotiate this whole business related to the pension plan_, because there is no immediacy with respect to a liability against the plan at the present time? There may be ten or fifteen years down the road. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR~ DOODY: I was speaking with the President of the NTA at no later, I guess, than 12:30 this afternoon when he informed me that the result of the teachers' vote had come in, and they had voted overwhelmingly to reject government's position, the government school board position on this instance, and I said to Mr. tVheeler then it appears that we are going to have to sit down at it again as quickly as we can and try to find a solution to the impasse in which we now find ourselves.

And he agreed that this was a very sensible- - and reasonable thing to do, and so, as far as I understand, the NTA and 1071

February 18, 1977 Tape no . 392 Page 3 - mw ~~. Doody. the school boards and Treasury Board will be sitting down and having another go at the whole situation. As for a time frame, I do not think you can conduct negotiations within a time frame. That would not be fair to the people on either side. It has got to be done in an open area . The import of 1071

February 18, 1977, Tape 393, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: __ IllY answer is, yes, Treasury Board has been talking to the NTA, they recognize the problem that is there and they are prepared and w~lling and anxious to sit down and get at it and try to find a solution. MR. SPEAKER:­ MR. ROWE: A supplementary. Could the minister indicate when Treasury Board and himself will be sitting down with the NTA, and have the NTA agreed to hold off on a strike until after such talks are held? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

That is a difficult one to answer because you are asking me to answer something on behalf of the NTA,which is really not within my power. I hav~, as I said, indicated to the President of the NTA that we were anxious and willing and all the rest of it, to sit down and discuss with them the problems at issue and to try to find a resolution.

He agreed that this was an admirable idea and from that I gather then that there will be no - just as soon as it can be arranged,! suggested to him,that he contact the people at Treasury Board,or we will have Treasury Board contact him within the next day or two days or whenever he felt it convenient, and we would arrange a date to sit down and get at it again. You know, it is as soon· as it can possibly be done. Mr. Wheeler did not indicate to me on the telephone that there is going to be a strike tomorrow or yesterday or last week or next week or so on. He does have a mandate, I understand. MR.

SPEAKER: One ~upplementary. MR. ROWE: He does have a mandate, obviously, but the NTA did not give any assurance that they would hold off on a strike until such talks are held? They did not give that indication? 1071

February 18, 1977, Tape 393, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I did not feel I should insult the intelligence of the gentleman with whom I was talking. When he agreed that it was time to sit down and discuss it further,! assumed then that there would be no strike until such time as they felt that the talks were fruitless or were fruitful. It would have been, I thought, improper and imprudent of me to say to him, "Sir, now having agreed to sit down~can you tell me that you are not going to strike before we sit down?" I know Mr.

Wheeler very well, I know that he is an intelligent gentleman and I would not insult his intelligence by presuming that such a thing could happen. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, the minister a moment ago in referring to the pension issue said, I believe, the term, 'the government-school board position;and again I am interpreting that he was referring to the pension, the dispute involving the pension issue. Could he indicate to the House whether the government's position insofar as the pension is concerned is also,in fact,the position of the school boards on that point?

The publtc impression is quite different,and I wonder if he would indicate whether the school boards and the government are together on this particular point at issrle? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, I could not in all fairness to the school boards undertake to speak on their behalf. They are a very, very reliable and a very articulate group of people. They are quite capable of making their own comments in their own area and in their own way. They have done so in the past and I assume they will do so in the future.

They certainly are not expecting me to make comments on their behalf,or to demonstrate what their position is in any particular issue. 1074

February 18, 1977, Tape 393, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary. MR. DOODY: It would be presumptious of me to try. MR. SI~ONS: First of all,I am glad for the clarification because the minister did say 1government-school board position~ The question now then is, is he really rephrasing what he said earlier in that in effect it is not a joint position, this matter of pension, it is not a joint pos~tion insofar as he is aware? I am aware he cannot speak for the boards but neither can he misrepresent the boards on this point, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DOODY~ Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member interpreted my comments as misrepresenting the school boards position on this thing,then I will have to withdraw or apologize or whatever it is that he wants me to do on behalf of the school boards. I am not going to get involved in a niggledy-piggledy,nitty-gritty on this thing as,you know,we could. We have been into it at great length, The thing is now going to be,hopefully,gone into again at the bargaining table. I think that that is the place where it should be done.

I do not want to get into a confrontation, or get myself involved in a wrangle between the school boards, • the spokesman for the NTA or the NTA itself or Treasury Board. I just want to try to find an atmosphere in which a peaceful and reasonable reconciliation of the differences can be found. I do not want to get into any wrangle here in this hon. House on the points. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this question is to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Would the minister inform the House as to any details of an agreement presently being negotiated between Price (Nfld.) and Mr. Ed. Ralph, an 1075

February 18, 1977, Tape 393, Page 4 - apb MR. FLIGHT: agreeme11t that would give Mr. Ralph or his cot11pany cutting rights; sol~ cutting rights, t .o all birch and hardWoods on Price (Nfld'

s) limits? 107fi

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 394 Page 1 - mw MR.. SPEAKER: I The han. Minister of Yorestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any agreement being negotiated between two private companies or individuals. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Is the Ministry of Forestry a party to these negotiations? Would the minister advise the House as to whether they are a party? MR. COLLINS: He said that he did not know anything about it. MR. SIMMONS: That is not unusual. MR. FLIGHT: That is not unusual. I am talking about his officials. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MAYNA.lli> : Mr. Speaker, that has to be the most stupid question that has ever been asked in this House. I just said I was not aware of any negotiations. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The han. gentleman to my right as well, because I think I had intervened, at least, simultaneously,to give myself the benefit of the doubt,of perhaps a split second before the hon. gentleman. Certainly during Question Period a kind of debate ' is not permitted.

Questions are meant to ask for information and answers to ·give -it. - And these matters- there is opportunity for debate on the matters arising at other opportunities but not during the Question Period. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Sir, I would point out to the House that I had no intention of that being a stupid question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. I have to have a chance to have a small

preamble to indicate that this is serious business, you know, for Central Newfoundland, 1077

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 394 Page 2 - mw Hr. Flight. and, Mr. Speaker, that there is an agreement being negotiated. Ed Ralph is ge'tting the cutting rights to all hardwoods on Price (Nfld.) Limited, and I am concerned about the rights of the small operators. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. gentleman correctly stated at the beginning, when he was recognized, tha~ he needed to put in some - he used the word -

preamble, presumably to make the question intelligible. However, he may not debate the previous answer. The material might be necessary in order to make the question understandable, but that is the only kind of information that should be included. The hon. member. MR. FLIGHT: Now then,my supplementary to the minister. If indeed there is an agreement being negotiated,would the minister assure this House that the rights of the small operators, who make a living and who employs people cutting birch on Price (Nfld.) limits, will be protected?

Will the minister use his office and his department's position to ensure that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. 11AYNARD: Mr. Speaker, if there are some negotiations going on, first of all,I am not aware of it. And if a private onerator _wants to negotiate with a private company that i~ operating in this Province, then I have no reason to interfere in it. They have not reason to come to goyernment.

They have statutory rights to their timber logs , and as long as that . -- . - legislation is in force, ~r the agreement is in force, that Price has the right- to those timber ·lots, and they ·have the rigbt to negotiate with anyone. And I am not necessarily goin~ to get involved in · any private negotiations between two private individuals or companies. MR.. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. 107~

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 394 Page 3 - mw MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Baie . Verte -White Bav. 1-!R. RIDEOUT : A supplementarv to the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker. I wonder in view of the government's announced forest management policy, if the minister would not have to get his department involved in this so that the proper forest management policy would be protected in case this trade-off is occurring between those two companies? Ma • SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNARD: The forest management policy states quite simply, Hr.

Speaker, that the forest resource, whether it is owned by the companies or whether it is Crown resource,has to be utilized to the maximum possible benefit keeping in mind the annual allowable yield from the forested lands of this Province. Now if some company wanted to get the rights to cut hardwood, or wanted to cut hardwood on Price's limits, and they were not utilizing the hardwood, and they refused to give some company the rights, then we would certainly intervene.

But if the hardwood is being utilized, I do not see why we should intervene and try to stop it ·since the forest management policy specifically states that we are supposed to have maximum utilization. And if hon. members want to get their wires uncrossed and read the forest management policy, and the forest policy of the Province, then they should do it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 1079

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 395 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I would ask - nO"t ask, require the hon. gentleman to left and to right, not only during Question Periods but at all times, when the Chair intervenes to immediately stop talking and to take their seats. And I would specifically remind the hon. minister of my remarks a few minutes ago with respect to debate. · As it is wrong to d~bate in asking questions or commenting on answers, it is equally impermissable to debate in giving an answer. HR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. I am sure the minister will recall that a year ago in this House, or almost a year ago, regulations o~ legislation was passed reducing the term for squatters right from sixty to twenty years and there are still no regulations or applications drawn up for this. I wonder what is taking so long, in view of the fact that people are trying_to get mortgages and they cannot do that because they have no grant or legal title to their land? So I wonder if the minister could tell me what is taking so long. It has almost been a year. MR.

SPEAKER: ·The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: There have been a number of requests in for - a title 'to ~and people have been occupying for twenty years or more. The leeislation comes into effect on the last of January and if people can prove by affidavit that they have occupied a land for twenty years or more and they submit a survey then the title can be issued. It is as simple as that. There are no other regulations required other than the legislation. - MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 1080

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 39.5 NM- 2 MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could give us . an assurance that he will inform his officials of this,because every time I call them on behalf of a constituent they usually tell ~e the applications are not ready and they are not ready to proceed. So they are in just as much confusion with respect to this as I am. I would like to have that assurance that his officials will be notified. MR. ~AYNARD: No problem. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burg eo - Bay d 'Espoir, followed by the hon. member for Fogo. MR.

SIMMONS: I have a question for the Minister of Forestry ·. and Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. The Crown Lands applications as they apply to agriculture,and specifically as they apply to persons who are applying for agriculture leases, not for commercial reasons but for~, if you like, family farm reasons. I understand that there are about seventy applications of that nature, people applying for agricu~ture land for their own family farm reasons. About seventy applications have been sitting in the department anywhere from six months to a year. AN HON. MEMBER: They are better off - . MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, if someone has a point of order they can raise it,but if not I shall continue my

preamble to the question. MR. LUNDRIGAN:

Preamble, that is a speech. MR. SIMMONS: For the Minister from Grand -Falls that is a speech, Mr. Speaker. MR.. S-PEAKER: Order • please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: On a point of order. Hon. members ~cross the way have been chastised a half a dozen times this afternoon for

preambles that take the form of a speech, and I think they should be catching on by now. MR. WHITE: Sit down,boy, sit down. MR. SIMMONS: What a point of order: 1 081_

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 3.95 NM- 3 SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh: Oh! - ----- .. MR. ROBERTS: On that point of order. Mr. SnP-~k~r, the bon. member for Grand Falls, set out) I do not know if it was deliberately, but if it was not deliberate. it was negligent,and either is an offence in the eyes of the House,to attempt to harrass and to provoke the hon. gentleman from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) who is asking a question in the perfectly proper and normal fashion. The gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan), Sir, should know better,! submit,and I would ask Your Honour, Sir, please to direct the hon. gentleman's attention to the fact that the member who has been recognized by Your Honour and who is speaking to the House, has the right, Sir, to speak without interruption from hon. gentlemen opposite unless they I wish to raise a point of order in which case of course they have the right to - MR. LUNDRIGAN: He is suUPQsed to stand up on his own feet. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order~ MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I am talking of, Sir.

I am not provoked by the hon. gentleman from Grand Falls because I have his measure, Sir, and I find it insignificant. But, Mr. Speaker, the fact remains, that the hon. - MR. LUNDRIGAN: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is doing it again. I am speaking to a point of order, Sir, and ~hat I am saying I think is very much to the point. MR. RIDEOUT: Is the- new-Rouse Leader cont~olling the boys? MR. ROBERTS: The han. member for Grand Falls, Sir, is fast becoming not just an irritant under the saddle of progress, but, Sir, an obstacle to any progress in this House. -MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order. Cut o.ut this personal garbage. 1082

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 395 NM- 4 MR. SIMMONS: Are you the Speaker too? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, every time the hon. gentleman interrupts me,he merely re-en;orces the p~int which I am trying to make, Sir, that the gentleman from Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir was asking a perfectly proper question until the gentleman from Grand Falls inte.rrupted him, not with a point of ~rder but with low and scandalous attacks designed either to harrass the gentleman from Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) 1083

February 18, 1977 Tape 396 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: in the exercise of his lawful rights or to provoke him, and if he succeeded in provoking him, Sir, that is no credit to the gentleman from . Grand Falls . (Mr. Lundrigan). Mr. Speaker, I submit the gentleman from Burgeo-Bay (I_ 'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) was asking a perfectly proper question, and he should be allowed to continue to ask it, and then the minister to whom it is addressed may answer it according to the rules. MR.

SPEAKER: The point of order before the Chair is whether the bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir was out of order in asking his questionr Up to the point that he had asked it, I would not be prepared to rule that he is out of order. I would ask him to continue with his question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: What was the ~ling? MR. 'WHITE: Go ahead. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Spe'aker. The question, y~u will recall, was for the Minister of Foresty.

It relates to seventy applications,including some from my own district, but from all parts of the Province, seventy applications for Crown Land fo~ agricultur?l purposes, not for commerical agriculture, but for family farm purposes. About seventy people have been waiting anywhere from six I months to eighteen months.

They have had no acknowledgement whatsoev~r from the department,either ~ha~ · the standard one that;·Y~r application has been received:' These applications to date have not been registered, I understand therreason is that the department is considering a policy on the matter of farming for private reasons rather than for commerical reasons. I wonder then, Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate when we can expect to have that policy determined · and announced1 And when, in part~cular, the seventy applicants directly involved can be notified as to the status of their applications? 1084

February 18, 1977 Tape 396 Pk - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the number of applications, I know there are quite a few, I will take into account the number is seventy. I am not exactly sure when we are going to be able to deal with those applications, hopefully pretty soon,and when we are able to deal with applications of that kind I will be making a statement to the House of Assembly. But I"cannot put an exact time on it right at this point. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary . , MR.

SIMMONS: Well,I thank the minister for undertaking to pursue this matter. I just want to impress upon the House,first of all, that a number of people have waited as much as eighteen months, and my supplementary to the minister in that regard is; would he undertake, say, within the next few days to dettermine when these persons, in particulaz: -and the figure seventy is not mine, but the figure of one of his officials given to me in recent days over the phone-would he undertake to determine when these applicants, in particular- might be notified as to the status of their applications? J MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: .I think what we, will probably do, Mr. Speaker, is notify the applicants as to what we see is the possible time for dealing with their applications. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Can the minister tell the House if it is the intention now to reopen many of the marine service centres around the Provinces, and provide that centre with a watchman? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, following representation made to the department by the fishermen of WesleyVille-a watchman was placed in that . particular service centre, which noW'-makes -it accessible 'to fishermen pretty well on a round the clock basis. We will be looking at other service centres, and where it is found necessary to take that 108~

February 18, 1977 Tape 396 PK - 3 Mr. W. Carter: kind of action, Mr. Speaker, to accommodate and to facilitate fishermen we will be doing it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, Sir. Could the minister ' tell us, Sir, whether any negotiations are underway under the aegis of his department between the St. John's City Council and their employees? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there are ~ and a meeting should be held in about ~hirteen minutes time. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if the meeting is yet to be held, obviously we-·cannot asked what happened. Will the minister undertake to make a statement to the House as soon as he gets a report on this meeting? And would he further arrange to get a report? 1086

February 18,1977 Tape 397 AH-1 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Ministe~ of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, Mr. Speaker, certainly,but it is quite possible that if the meeting starts at 4 o'clock they may be going beyond 6 but as soon as something is appropriate to be said I am sure that either side or myself, whichever ane'we agree on, will make a statement. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Ferryland. MR. O':SRIEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the ~linister of Fisheries a question. It is to do with the community stage that I think he proposed to build in Renews.

Have you announced, Sir~ as yet when you expect to start the construction of that stage? MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the community stage in Renews is part of a project programme we announced here, I think, on Monday or Tuesday, and construction will be commencing as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.' Just one other question, Sir. I was wondering where in Renews you are expecting to build this stage. Is it going to be where there is an existing wharf,,- or are you planning to build a wharf- as well,and what type of construction is it going to be? MR..

SPEAKER: Ron. Minister~ MR. CARTER: I am not sure where it is going to be built, but certainly we will be consulting with the fishermens groups in the area, fishermen's committee,maybe the council 1and I would suspect that the-indeep I am sure, that it will be a wooden frame construction • ~ut as,again, to where it is built, that will be decided by the fishermen themselves, I presume, working in consolidation with our department. MR. 0 'BRIEN: That will be with concrete floors, and so on. MR. CARTER: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, this is a ·questicim for the Hinister of Social Services, and the question arises out of a statement that he 1087

February 18,1977 Tape _ 397 __ AH-2 MR. LUSH: made in the House recently with respect to the Auditor General's Report and dealing with the fact that there was $2 million outstanding with respect to his department. And the minister,x think,was saying that with respect to recoverable overpayments that the system used by his department was one of the best in Canada • . I am wondering if the minister probably could briefly inform the House, what is it about this recoverable overpatment system that makes it the best in Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. BRETT: It is the best, Mr.

Speaker, because it is probably the only effective one. When I attended the last Ministers, Conference in Ottawa,six or seven months ago, I presented a paper on this problem of overpayment, ~at prompted me to do it was the Ombudsman, the one that we see on television on Sunday night. He .. was after me for quite some months to go on that programme. He picked up a couple of cases here in the province~and he was using it on the programme.

And I realized we did have a problem here, and I presented this paper at the Ministers Meeting,and surprisingly enough none of the other nine provinces-well,maybe B.C. has a little bit of concern~but certainly the other eight have ~ none whatsoever. · I got practically no support for my paper. And while they make feeble and faint attempts to collect glaring overpayments, that is about all,but there is no real effe~tive system. As I said B.C. is somewhat concerned but they do not have an effective system like we do.

We receive assignments from the Unemployment Insurance Commission which is followed up and overpayments are set up,and we I do the same thing with the Canada Pension Plan, Workmans Compensation, and any other payments from any other department in government~or --- any other government~that weuld create an overpayment, and an account is set up in every single case. And I think that because we have been so efficient the end result is that we have $2 million on the books now. He were collecting 10 per cent of the entitlement from 1088

February 18,1977 Tape 397 AH-3 NR. BRETT: people who are receiving welfare for SoCial Assistance, and then people who had overpayments and were not on Social Assistance then we made efforts to collect as much as we could. Like in the case of Canada Pension, in some cases we would BSk them to surrender the first cheque,if the overpayment was large. But we have cut down on that now, we are reducing it from ten to five because 10 9

February 18, 1976 Tape no. 398 Page 1 - mw Mr. Brett. _ i~ is resulting in a hardship in some cases, particularly in the Winter months when the fuel bill is high. But our system is effective, and it is the best. And ironically enough the Auditor General still comes out and says, '~e are not making enough effort." MR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. LUSH: - - - - Do I understand from the minister that what the department is now doing is that they are collecting ten per cent of the entitlement? MR. BRETT: Right. MR.

LUSH: And I think he said that the department was thinking about changing that to five per cent. Now then what is it about it that makes it the best in Canada? Is it the rate or is it the method? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. BRETT: It is the method, Mr. Speaker. 4s far as I know we are the only Province who has a complete system. We go into every case. The other provinces, if there is a glaring example of an overpayment, they would pick it up, but they do not go looking for them, but we do. We have three or four on staff . who do nothing else but record overpayments. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. • SPEAKER: I think there are a couple of hen. members with supplementaries, but I will recognize the original questioner, and time will only permit this question and answer. MR. LUSH: I am certainly pleased to hear that the rate has b~en reduced from ten per cent to five per cent, because I think, like the han. minister, I have gotten several complaints that the rate is too high, particularly in the cases, of people who receive overpayment innocently, and I expect this happens in some cases, and sometimes they are not caught up until six, seven, eight, nine _months.

I wonder, in view of this, if the minister is able to indicate 1090

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 398 Page 2 - mw Mr. Lush. to the House l'l.ow soon this will be brought into effect, the five per cent, instead of the ten per cent? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. BRETT: The beginning of the fiscal year. 0 0 0 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's North. }1R., J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance; namely, that in view of the present emergency situation in St.

John's this House debate the advisability of enforcing a thirty day cooling off period be~ween the striking municipal workers and the city council thus ensuring a ~s~eedy return to normalcy. MR. SPEAKER: I am awaiting now so that I can get an exact copy of what the matter is the hon. gentleman proposes.

As hon. members are aware,the rcesponsibili~ 6f the Speaker pursuant to the asking for leave under this Standing Order is set out quite concisely in our precedent, and indeed in Beauchesne, and they coincide in this case,whereby it says in Beauchesne, page ninety: "The Speaker's duty with regard to a motion to adj ou~ ___ the House- for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance is confined to determining as to where in the first instance a motion so proposed is in order." And depending on the Speaker's decision there, it is the House which determines whether they wish to debate it or not.

My responsibility is limited to determining whether it is in order, and in determining that one of the most important matters to which I have to turn my mind in Beauchesne, and in a more recent, almost a verbatim extract one can find in the House of Commons' Hansard, I1arch 11, 1970 - 1091

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 398 Page 3 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, with respect to this, we are trying to hear what you are saying, but there seems to be an inordinately large number of inordinately loud conversations in the House, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. members please remain quiet. As was said in the House of Commons' Chair March 11, 1970, the matter to which the Chair has to direct its attention is the probability ~f the matter being brought before the House within a reasonable length of time by another means. The debate on the Address in Reply is before the House.

As far as I know it is the intentiopof the government to call it today or certainly within the quite near future, and that would permit debate on any matters of public concern and public interest to the Province. Therefore, pursuant to the authority I have on this matter, I cannot rule it in order. 1092

February 18, 1977 Tape 399 PK- 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order (1). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do not have a Standing Order 23, but I earlier asked whether the government would be willing to consider, in effect, permitting a debate this afternoon on the labour situation generally. And I wonder if the House Leader - whether any considerations have been given and, if so, whether they are prepared to do this? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. B • PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, two points on that. The matter has been discussed, and I have discussed it.

Number one point is that negotiations are ongoing on a number of the disputes. Number two is, as Your Honour has ruled on a previous motion ·a few minutes ago, the Address in Reply debate is to be called, and hon. members, in the opinion of this side of the House,will have ample opportunity to discuss the various matters which are presently ongoing in Province relating to the subject matter that the Leader of the Opposition just raised. MR. SPEAKER: Order (1) the debate on the sub-amendment. The hon. member for St. John's North. ' MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to your ruling that since the Address in Reply was next on the Order Paper, and that therefore there would be ample opportunity to raise this matter that I attempted to raise under Standing Order 23, I am rising for a brief comment to address the sub-amendment. Certainly since the hon. member from · LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is not in the House he has waived his right to speak for an unlimited period of time. Your Honour quite rightly rule~ y~~~erday that no one can speak for an unlimited period of time, but I do feel the member from LaPoile was attempting to set such a record.

However because of this opportunity afforded me to bring up these important matters, I would like to confine my slot on the Address in Reply entirely to the matter that I wished to raise under Standing Order 23. 1093

February 18, 1977 Tape 399 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Put a sub-amendment (In~udible). MR. J. CARTER: I will, I will, I will. This will only take a moment. MR. ROBERTS : I mean,! do not know, we got a right too. AN HON. MEMBER: We got a right too, yes, of course. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, almost one-third of Newfoundlanders live in or do business with or have occasion to come into St. John's nearly every day ao that this strike that is now in- front, tying up the city of St. John's,is affecting nearly one-third of all Newfoundlanders.

You merely have to look out the windows behind Your Honour to see traffic stalled to a standstill. Business is practically dead. No one is doing any shopping. _Now whether or not they will make up for this lost time is another matter, but it is certain'that businesses are seriously affected. But far more important than that, Mr. Speaker, is the danger to school children, and it is not a question of if some school child is injured, but a question of when.

And I think that unless this House takes it upon itself,or this government takes it upon itself to ensure a speedy return to normalcy that lives could very well be enda~gered if not lost. ' Strikes are a poor way to handle things in the best of circumstances. And in the United States the Taft-Hartley Law ~hich required, I think, a ninety day cooling off period for disputes,did serve to do just that.- and cool off a great many disputes, and brought the two parties to the bargaining table again, and it seemed to work very well. And I suggest that the government consider just this w~y of handling these strikes.

I realize very well that you do not take away a person's right to strike even if they are working in an essential part of government services. But certainly we could try a thirty day cooling off period and see what happens. Perhaps as a longer term s~lution labour courts might be wo~th c~nsiderting. At the present time if Your Honour owes me a debt I do not sit on your doorstep to collect the debt. I am prepared to take Your Honour to 1 09·~

February 18, 1977 Tape 399 PK- 3 Mr. J. Carter: court and let another agency handle this. In the meantime, Your Honour goes about his business and I go about mine. There is no interruption 1095

February 18, 1977, Tape 400, Page 1 -- apb MR. J. CARTER: in our mutual affairs. However, this business of confrontation every time a dispute arises has got to stop. That is about all there is to say to it , Mr. Speaker. This House, this government, this city has a very heavy responsibility. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? Those in favour "aye", contrary "Nay", I declare the sub-amendment defeated. MR.. MARSHALL: The hon. the member for St. John's East. Mr.

Speaker, I understand now I am speaking on the amendment of the Leader of the Opposition, and as such I will, bec~use it has grown customary in this Hous~ to instead of speaking in the Throne Speech, to speak on matters pertaining to the Throne Speech in amendments. With respect to the Throne Speech itself, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say that having listened to it,it was a little bit different than other Throne Speeches but it still comes couched in resplendent phrases and platitudes, as all Throne Speeches do, which are put together for. the purpose of appeasing and pleasing the people, and they do not really ever - they are never intended, and God help the government that does not . do this because the public has gotten accustomed to all sorts of goodies. It is like a post-Christmas visit from Santa Claus.

But now, I think, more than ever before, it is essential to communicate to the people in this Province - it has been said before by many and needs .to be said again- the stark realities of the state of the Province and their effect upon and their meaning upon John Q. Citizen. To me, really, I think the public would have been better served if the Throne Speech in these times had simply noted that we are in the grip of very severe 109fl

February 18, 1977, Tape 400, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: financial difficulties which threaten - to engulf us, the effect upon the residents of our worsening financial position, and most importantly the steps which government intend to take to meet these difficulties before we arrive at an insurmountable crisis. Now Wayfarer,whom everybody knows is a very distinguished newspaper man amongst his many other qu~lities, recently noted in one of his columns that perhaps we should not talk about our financial position as a crisis.

There is a danger, I know, in overstating the present situation and perhaps we should not get to the stage where we state it where there appears to be a necessity of panic. There is no doubt in my mind that it is necessary again and again for members to draw this to the attention of the public because I think, really, the people of Newfoundland, as I say, would be better served if we had a debate on the nature of our financial condition; its effect and what the government is prepared to do with respect to this particular position.

I think if this debate cebtered around this rather than on the items that come up on the sub-amendment particularly, I think that this House would regain an awful of its relevancy and regain much of its lost esteem in the eyes of the people of this Province, because, Mr. Speaker, these are extremely vital and serious issues that effect each and every one of us. It is not my intention, Your Honour, to speak -in this debate for a very long time about the severity of our present situation.

My views on this by no means claim to be original at all, are known and I will have adequate opportunity to voice them again, I know, when the Budget Speech is introduced. All that need be said on this aspect of it at the present time, about the severity of the condition,is the fact that we now have an enormous per capita debt, disproportionate to our ability to produce and t097

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 401 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: that this per capita debt,which is reflected in the debt service fund,I think can be compared to a thermometer, and as this thermometer goes up, as the debt service fund of this Province goes up,we see ourselves our financial condition and the economy becoming rapidly overheated like a caldron from which it is increasingly difficult to extract eve~ our pasic needs in this Province.

And so it will be,and so the therm~meter goes up, I ~ay, year after year, and so the heat gets hotter as it goes on,but so unfortunately it does not seem to have any effect upon the people of this Province and upon this Legislature with respect to the real realization of it. Neither do I intend at this stage, Mr. Speaker, to dwell too much upon the effect of this looming situation which is before us. While I think everybody's ego tends to delight from time to time in pretended gifts of clairvoyance I am going to spare the House this at the particular time.

Because the fact of the matter is that the effect will only be perceived when it is experienced, Mr. Speaker. We experienced some of this last year, for instancetin cuts in the health budget which resulted in elective surgery becoming less accessible and hospital facilities diluted. But I know, as everybody else knows in this Province, that just as the first symptoms of pain are ignored by persons, it looks like we will have to wait until the distress becomes more acute before anything is really done about it that ought to be done. I only hope and pray, Mr.

Speaker, that the distress will not become terminal before the condition is dealt with. MR. SMALLWOOD: In the meanwhile we live in blissful ignorance of the danger. - MR.. ~..ARSHALL : That is right. We live in - I do not think we can. I do not think that we can afford to live in the blissful --ignorance,but unfortunately it is the state in which we now find 109S

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 401 NM- 2 MR.. MARSHALL: ourselves. But I feel in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, that what we should concern ourselves with are constructive suggestions as to what can possibly be done about the situtation. Before, and I am not going to talk here about cuts and savings and expenditures;as I say, I will get to that·when the Budget Debate comes a!ong. That is the proper place for it.

But what I am talking about_~s _what must be done,is what changes should take place in this economy and for us to be able in the shortest period of time possible to remedy the situation in which we find ourselves. Now before addressing ourselves to this questio~ . .. _! I think we do have to go into history. ; because we ' have to ask ourselves if we are talking · about remedies as to what the cause of the present situation is. And this does not admit to an easy answer. Obviously. there are many causes.

But I can visualize in generalistic terms that economists in their usual bland phrases in years to come when they go back over our history,will just very tritely say the economic unit that is Newfoundland, was unable to produce sufficient goods and services to meet the demands j of its people. Now that is a generalized statement and really what could be more apt and really what could be more true. Because we are all familiar with the fact that demand is outstripping production in this Province and as a result we have fallen into debt. We cannot provide that which has been demanded.

I will not get into the matter of demand at the present time. I presume to deal mainly with that element of production because I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact I am certain, that our inability to produce as a factor contributing to our financial difficulties is really fully appreciated in this Province. And I feel that l09q

February 18. 1977 Tape No. 401 NM- 3 MR. ~JffiSHALL: one of the main causes, and one of the principle causes of our present situation, and our unfavourable financial condition and economy is the dismal and abysmal failure of all of our economic development policies since 1949. What could be more evident of this, Mr. Speaker, that the present situation where we now find for the first time somebody taking the tiller as it were in our fisheries. the federal government after being urged by the provincial goverriment - - ' .taking the initiative and declaring the 200 mile limit.

ICNAF setting a quota on the fisheries, and we get a fisheries quota set and what do we find? After 400 years of our history this Province ~:mly ~as the ability to catch only a paltry percentage of the allowable catch. 1100

February 18, 1977 Tape No • . _A02 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: Surely that has to· tell us something. After 400 years - PREMIER MOORES: Who said, "Burn your boats"? MR. MARSHALL: After 400 years when the fishery .has been prosecuted in this Province,and at the pres~nt time at the price of fish in the European countries and in the States we still have a fishing industry in this Province that cannot exist unless it is very heavily subsidized. Now I do not presume to have, Mr.

Speaker, all of the answers,or perhaps any of them,but this I do know; it is quite obvious ~hat this House has to come to grips and it has to come to grips very, very seriously with this particular situation. We have not been able to prodbce,and we have to turn this around. We have to ask ourselves all sorts ' of questions. We have to ask ourselves as to the people who have been entrusted with the production of this resource, that is the fishing merchants over this period of time, they obviously have not been that successful. We have to enquire into the causes, perhaps it is not their fault and what have you.

We have to look at the effect of all this upon the resettlement programme that was instituted and followed and went to a certain stage . . and then it was stopped., and we have to ask ourselves questions . - . . . now as to whether instead of arresting it maybe the time has come for properly thought-out policies of instead of stoppin~ it, reversing it so that people can have ready access to fishing grounds which I understand they find very difficult to get to at the present time. We have to ask ourselves all sorts of other questions on the effect of - MR..

SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman spelled it out a little, but reversing, what does he mean by reversing it? Would he spell it out a little? MR.. MARSHALL: What I mean by reversing it, I say we have to have - look,it seems to me that we turned and we did this type 1101

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 402 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: or it was done, w~ did not agree with it,but it was don~ I will say at the time i~ good fait~ by other _ people. And what happened was it was done at a time when communications had increased~ the possibility of communication in educational means increased and what have you. But the fact -of the matter is that the inshore fishery of this Province,I am given to understand,is suffering to a certain extent because people who lived in these 21.reas, who were put in other centralized areas,now have great difficulty in getting to their fishing grounds.

And if we are to increase our potential for catch of fish as well as production of fish and the marketing of fish and what have you, that perhaps we have to look at the possibility of reversing it and allowing these people .: _as a Diatter of fact not jus.t allowing them because they are allowed now, I understand -but encouraging these people where it is necessary to go back from the places from whence they came and from whence they had a reasonable livelihood. Now I know there were hardships and what have you. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the member allow me again? MR. MARSHALL: Yes. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Does the hon. member mean that to carry on the inshore fishery it is necessary for people so as to be near the fishing grounds to go back and liv~or merely to use those places as the point of operation of the fishery in the fishing season but continue to live where they live now. MR. MARSHALL: No,I do not mean that. I do not mean that is absolutely necessary for that,but what I mean is that these resettlment programmes have not worked, Mr.

Speaker, in my view, and while the government has arrested it and has stopped it, except where it is voluntary, I think we have to look at the possibility of people who wish to get back for the purpose of earning a reasonable living, not necessarily in the same places but dispersing our population rather than consolidating it which 1.102

____ -:.,. ... Feburary 18, 1977 Tape No. _4.92·· . MR. MARSHALL: was the position before, to make the fishing fields more amenable. NM- 3 Now I say we have to look and we have to consider these things because of the failure. We have also to look at the effect of our social welfare schemes, Mr. Speaker, around this Province, something that a politician is not really supposed to speak about. But the fact of the matt .er is that in 1949 with the bountiful blessings of Confederation we had injected into this Province,like . a shot,programmes which had evolved over a period of time on the Mainland of Canada. And it is 1103

February 18, 1977 Tape 403 IB-1 MR. MARSHALL: obvious,that these programmes had very heavy effect, beneficial effects in many cases certainly,but they also had effect on our productivity. But most of all, Mr. Speaker, ~vhen we are looking at this I think we have to look at our shipwrecks on the land.

It is absolutely incredible to me that we have been in this House for two weeks and what has been said about our industrial development of the oil refinery and the Labrador Linerboard, what has been said with respect to those two economic activities which are taking quite a bit of resource,of the economic resource from the people of this Province - and I ~7ill get to that in a moment, the exact measure of it - that there has been virtually no debate about it at all. We have heard all about rabbits and ·grand!

We went on for a long period of time about rabbits, and I am not derogating about the fact that their points were very important and certainly they should have been brought up. We even got into the sex life of the rabbit, Mr. Speaker. We got into la"toryers again, from the hon. member for LaPoile (:Hr. Neary), ~.rhich is certainly a very interesting subject - ~ _ but_ when you hear it over and over again?-when we keep talking about in this area, you get almost the feeling that this Assembly is fiddling l~ile Rome burns.

Because the fact of the matter is there is no more pressing ~ause of debate in this-~~~vi~ee today than the oil refinery, the three great industrial developments that are presently \mder~~ay- - ~r -I>reseri.tly with us~ presently having an effect .- I wish they were under way .- ~ : the -oif~- - . refinery, the Lab~ador Linerboard Mill,and the Upper Churchill. I shall not nee~ talk about the host of the predecessors that had occurred before them. But we cannot overlook, we certainly cannot overlook these particular types of.ende~your, and their immediate effect.

The oil refinery,through~e skill of this present government the liability was reduced,but it still is, ~r. Speaker, at the present time $40 ' million, originally $30 million on the second mortgage. The interest is capitalized at $40 million. It is probably near between $40 million and $45 million. I do not know whether it has been paid or not, anything 1104

February 18, 1977 Tape 403 IB-2 MR. MARSHALL: has been paid on it. But certainly you can take it at $40 million. There is a $40 million non-productive debt on which, ¥r. Speaker, we have approximately $4 million being paid out. We have that situation down there, ¥r. Speaker, and I think we have to look very, very carefully at the future of the oil refinery.

We have to look at it from ~~~ - ·viewpoints, not only just the cost to this Province,but we havet o .look at the very searching question as to whether or not at any price this Province can really afford the continuation of the operatioris--~~ - ~he oil r~ finery ~ particularly after you consider the disasters which occurred in the A~lantic recently where oil tankers did turn over. And if they turned over off the Coast of the United States the same thing could happen here, and you have t~ balance the future of the Qil refinery off against this fishery with the many jobs that it affords.

That is not what I am talking about here at the present time. Let us look at the cost of that $5 million. Something that was supposed to be started in good faith as a productive venture, was supposed to have brought us a petrochemical complex and much employment. At the time it was brought in it was said that there was no justification for this refinery unless there was a petrochemical complex. ·There never was one, and maybe there is no justification for it now. But the cost is heavy. Labrador Linerboard, now there is another one that we have to come to grips with in this House.

I have said before,and I say it again,that the fullest type of information about that particular endeavour since it was taken over, what has happened to it and how much money has gone into it, has to be presented in the very minutest detail to the people of this Province. The fact of the matter is that here you have an industry - these industries,by the way,all have the same characteristic; they are heavy, industrialized industries where the source of the raw material is not readily available. In the Labrador Linerboard as we know, the mill is in Stephenville and the source of the materials was in Labrador.

But the cost to us, the immediate cost, let us look at it. It was taken over at a cost of '$-160 million, ani' that. 1 1 n r;

February 18, 1977, Tape 404, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: $160 million is right here, an obligation of the people of this Province right now, today. Since then the Stephenville Linerboard Act was brought in which 4llowed an expenditure a~ci .this Hou~ e -·authorized an ~penditure, I am not sure, it was certainly $75 million and it might be $100 million. And if any members can enlighten me on that, whether it was $75 million or $100 million, it was certainly - ·- - - -- - - ~....---- - - - ~ $75 mtllion. _I( we -~take $75_ -~].l~~n __ t~~~ Y()U . ~ave $250 million of our money in the linerboard mill.

All of these"! say, .were started in good faith but they were started by government, by the government of the day,in good faith with the thought of providing jobs. And these are the jobs that are needed in this Province and every government is very sore put to provide them and has to attempt to provide jobs. But I say that in our efforts to provide the short-term jobs for political or what-have-you gains, construction jobs, we have a long-term . -~l~~tr~ s~ - around our neck, and we have a debt around our neck which threatens to strangle us.

So I do not think - it has been said before and it can be said again and again - the people of this Province can no longer tolerate the type of industrial dev~lopment, even though it is done with good faith, for the purpose of providing construction jobs. Now another development which has some- what stmilar characteristics to this is the Lower Churchill development. Here again, while there was. a desire to provide cheap electricity, I do not think any one can deny that there was a desire here to provide jobs. After all, this is the responsibility with which a government is saddled.

The Teshmont feasibility study- the Teshmont, Zinder Associates - it is all right to get feasibility studies, Mr. Speaker, but one has to read them as well. ---~d this _Teshmont- t"easibility s·tudy to a large extent puts a great reliance on the fact that this particular project is going to trigger certain industries. And if you look somewhere in the first twenty pages of that report you will find mention of a 1106

February 18, 1977, Tape 404, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: petro-chemical complex it was supposed to bring, an aluminium plant, a cement plant and what have you. The same type of dream. Now I think it is necessary for us to realize, in this Province, and this is the point I am trying to make, that we can no longer dream the impossible dreams that we have been dreaming about the heavy type of industrialization that they have and enjoy in places like Chicago, Detroit and Hamilton, if you want to put it that way.

We can np_longer aim for that type of industrial activity and we have to get back tothe basic type of activity, because the cost of these projects is enormous. I add to that, of course, the Lower Churchill as well. Ron. members will recall the particular stand I took on the Lower Churchill at the time and we now have $77 million tied up in that which is non-productive. All in good faith. All done in good faith.

There is one thing about this government I will say, that when mistakes are made they turn out to be investments because of the $160 million that was put in the Upper Churchill, we are getting some dividends back,we know that. But the fact of the matter is, if you take these three . -projects, Mr. Speaker, take these three projects and you have in the vicinity of $500 million at the present ~fme tied up. Not ' only is this $500 million tied up but it is non-productive, really; it is a cost to the treasury.

Instead of contributing to us it is a cost to the treasury. $50 million a year, or you take off the dividends you receive from CFLCo and you have a net cost to this Province of about $40 million from these three industrial development projects. $40 million on the debt service fund. Here we could cut down our expenditure - we could, we cannot just rub them out now, but if they had not been gone into right now that would have been $40 million off our debt service fund. I submit that is - AN HON. MEMBER: That is not $40 million annually is it? i11l'7 ..LA..lli

February 18, 1977, Tape 404, Page 3 -- apb I MR.. MARSHALL: $40 million annually:~~ yes, and ·tnore annually because that $40 million is added on and we,in effect, are paying interest on that as well. So I do not think one needs any more demonstrable proof that that of the 'fact that· we cannot go into this type of industry. 1108

February 18, 1977 Tape 405 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: ~~~~government,! feel,the time has come now, and the task is enormous because the whole basis of our economic development has to be turned around.

The manpower in this Province is out of balance, the manpower o~ this Province is really out of balance because it has been funnelled into the construction industry, and all that we have been able to provide, and the construction industry is certainly important, nobody is derogating it, but all we have been able to provide is we have seen from the ~nemployment and construction industry in that field,are really in effect short term jobs at very heavy long term costs.

They are all heavy industrialization where the source of the raw material is not there, and they are all costing us dearly now, and I say it is not too bad after twenty-five minutes speaking we have $500 million where we see that this Province, of the public debt,of approximately one-quarter of the public debt,that with proper types of approaches, with the different types of approaches,would not be a debt around our neck right now. There is another way when we are talking about the things that can be done, another long range policy, Mr.

Speaker, which will save money, and this is what I believe is the scrupulous and ~ben~~n~ _ and unfailing and unflinching adherence to the public tender system in this Province, and particularly to the Public Tendering - I Act. Now I did not know just how much it cost the people of this P.rovince until in the last Assetib·lY: when the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) rose to his feet, the Leader of the previous administration; he indicated at the time, and as far as I can see, that we would have saved this Province between $250 million and $400 million.

Now I refer to the bon. memb~r's speech on June 3, 1976, an'd after I get through referring to the hon. member's speech, Mr. Speaker, on that date - I will have a few words to say - first of all I just draw to the attention of bon. members the words that were used. Aiid- to think of how incredible it is that these words were used, and in ~y other province of Canada,! would suggest to you,that these words would have 1109

February 18, 1977 Tape 405 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: been used,_!n~_Eher~ would have been screaming headlines from one end of the particular province to the other. The bon. member at the time in his speech was talking about reform, and on June 3, Tape No.3204, Page 9984 he said, "There is -~ati_~her reform that this Province needs today and that is the_ sternest possible system, the sternest possible system of awarding government business on tender.

Now I will pay the administration the tribute of saying that as far as I can notice they do advertise extensively and heavily in the newspapers when they have contracts to award or orders to place. And I will say from superficial appearance that is all I know about it, they are doing their business on tender." Then he goes on to say,or goes . a step further abput the volume of the business, he refes to the volume of the business that this government does,and compares it to the CNR, and more than the CNR and various other large -- corporations altogether.

And on the following pages he says "It is simply staggering hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars a year~ he says - now this is the LeadeT. of the previous administration, and he was Premier so he knows how much business is done - "I dread the thought, he said, of the present government being like the government they succeeded, being in debt to rich men, private companies, corporations, organizations for the funds they need to conduct the general elections. I dread the thought of it." Then there was a little bit banter, as it goes back and forth across the House from time to time.

The hon. m~ber was being sincere at the time when he got up and he made these statements and some hon. members over here made reference to what went on in .·'' his administration. So he said, · All right, all right, the person can change etc., as a person who can change. Then on page 9986 he said what I conside -r - to--bethe most startling, the most startling revelation that possibly has ever been made by a leader of any administration. 1110

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 406 Page , 1 - mw Mr. Marshall. "To reform the existing system," the hon. member- for Twillingate said -·-- - - -- - --- --- (Mr. Smallwood), "of doing this vast amount of business 1 , these hundreds of millions of dollars each year,could save $10 million to $15 million a year to the public chest. By that I mean that · the donors are receiving $10 million to $15 million out of the public chest in return for their private donations which did not amount to that much, of course.

They donated during or leading up to a general election, but they received a payment, thev get their money each year after the elections are over until the next one comes up." Now I would like to read that passage again, Mr. Speaker, because it was - I heard it. And when I heard the hon. member say it - I am not condemning the hon. member now-himself. I am talking about the system as the system was - but when I heard it it was in the wee hours of the morning, the very last day of this session that he said it, when the hon. member was speaking, and I could not believe my ears.

I really could not believe my words that this type of statement could be made by the leader of a former administration.

And as I say,I am not doing this now to put the hon. member up to ask any questions or anything else, but I am making that as a statement; that the hon. member has made this particular statement in this House, and I expected to pick up the paper the next day, pick up the paper and read it in the headlines. ' I expected to turn on the radio or hear it on the radio,or I expected to hear it on the television station, because I am quite sure that in any other forum o·ther than in Newfoundland you probably would, and alas and alack, Mr. Speaker, we did not hear a single solitary word about it.

Let me just read it again so that members can realize the enormity of it, and I have copies that I will give to the members of the press so that they can perhaps engroas· it a bit now on second looking. The hon. gentleman said, "To reform the existing system of doing this vast amount of business, these millions of dollars each year could save $10 million to $15 million a year to the public chest. By that I mean that the donors are receiving $10 million 1111

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 406 Page 2 - mw Mr. Marshall. to $15 million a year out of the public chest in return for their private donations which did not amount to that much, of course. They donated · during or leading up to a general election. But they · received the payment, they get their money each year after the elections are over until the next one comes up." Now what could be mor~ startling than that particular relevation? I am not saying that it is necessarily peculiar to, you know, just one_~a~ticular government. This type of thing occurred, Mr.

Speaker, if anyone knows anything about Newfoundland history)prior to 1933 - and was one of the basic reasons why this Province lost~ts self government amongst others. So it was not peculiar to that - MR.. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. member allow me to confirm the accuracy of - I am hoarse, because I just came from speaki~g for an hour and a half at another place earlier today- I confirm now every word that he has quoted as an accurate quoting of what I said. I confirm now again what I said.

I did not emphasize it nearly enough, because it is one of the moral crimes in this Province, and it could be said of almost any other province in Canada. And as the hon. gentleman says, it did not begin in 1949 • MR. MARSHALL: I agree. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Because there was so much more money in Newfoundland beginning with 1949, it would be on a bigger scale; but previous to 1949, on a somewhat smaller scale, it was piicti"Ced along exactly the same lines. MR.

MARSHALL: Yes, I will agree with what the hon. gentleman says. '---- · but I do say this, you know, because I do not like to give the impression that when one is up speaking that I am up trying to make points against the hon. member's previous administration, because when I was on the other side, I used to love to do that, but now that administration is gone.,_!ut t do say it from - I want to put it from this point of view, that I do not deny that there other governments who have done it. And without attempting to be hypocritical, I do not 1112

F~bruary 18, 1977 Tape no. 406 Page 3 - mw Mr. Marshall. think that there is any excuse under Heaven for it, and I think that this is what this government - now this government is elected~ an~ __ al!_~ov~rnments are elected to change. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! Ma. ~SHALL: Because what we. are saying is the amazing thing, if you want to look at it, M~. Speaker, is this, that between $230 million and $400 million, if you want to project, it over the twenty-three years, of the 111:1

February 18, 1977 Tape No ._~_01 __ NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: public debt was paid out in what amounts to be, and there is no other way of ~ t_~~king about it,was popularly known as graft. In other words, the _ peop_le who are not in hospital beds today and do not get their elective surgery,and the people in the future who are going to find the pinch in years to come,and they are going to find it pretty hard, can thank this particular policy.

Now how this situation occurred and whether it was going to continue:- I knew it was bad, I never krieW -it- was so bad- was one of the things and one of the major reasons, if one may dwell upon one's self for a moment, that I feel that I wanted to do something when I got in the political life. And it was for that reason that I myself-publically, personally,drafted and introduced The Public Tenders Act in this Province and I think quite frankly, Mr.

Speaker, it is one of the best and greatest achievements that this government has done,and it might seem a little bit egotistical to say that when you are the introducer of it, and the mover of it, but I do think it is,and I think if I do not say it nobody else will. Because I noticed in the past election campaign - SOME BON. MF.MBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. MARSHALL: - that other things s~emed to have much more of a predominance with this government rather than the 1 Public Tenders Act,and I think this government has great cause to brag:. a great deal and display its wares in the Public Tenders Act.

But by the same token I also say, Mr. Speaker, that there is no way that I will remain silent in any way, or that I will condone in any way any deviation whatsoever from the provisions of that act, be they deviations from that act in reality against the exact letter of the act,or against -- - the spirit of the act,and I suggest to other hon. members ~ and I know 1114

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 407 ~---- NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: hon. members will agre~~Jth me, I am not alone in _!J·_·..:.;.;Jh _!. - Ws-- but=- if they adopt that particular attitude we would -----···- ---~-- come a giant step forward to really realizing responsible government in this Province. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, before the hon. gentleman proceeds, would he let me draw his attention to the fact that. there have been in the Province since Confederation what, seven, eight, nine general elections right? AN RON. MEMBER: That is right. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I think it is nine, and to fight general election number one~ that is twenty-eight years ago about, it cost a political party $100.000. SlSO,OOO. That by the time election number eight or nine had arrived it is up around $1 million. 'Now where does that $1 million come from? 1 MR. MARSHALL: I know where the $1 million came from. The money in effect, Mr. Speaker, has,translated,come really from the pockets of the people of this Province because right now we have between $250 million and $400 million added to the public debt of this Province.

I think really what the hon. member is saying _ is this is the system and we have to have, and he will agree, we have to change the system. Now one of the things that I have heard mooted about is the provision of the public financing of election expenses. But I think that the first thing that has to be done,and I would say if we were in the Province o.f Alberta, a wealthy Province, or we were in British Columbia~a wealthy Province, all right we could afford that. But I am myself, Mr.

Speaker, apprehensivP-, to say the least,about our abilities to provide the bare necessities in the years to come for the people of this Province,and I wonder whether we can afford it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Can we afford not to? MR.. MARSHALL: No. No,I think that there is a first step that we have to take to tackle it is to regulate and regulate very, very 111~

February 18, 1977 Tape No. !+07 __ NM- 3 MR. MARSHALL: heavily the amount of money that may be spent. Because why should a government - that is a different thing than saying the publ+c has got the pay the election expense~ :~a~d maybe some of them like television time or what have you, but elections should not depend upon how much money a particular party should be able to spend. MR. SMALLWOOD: Right. MR.. ROBERTS : Or the government • MR. MARSHALL: And what I feel that should happen is that there has been so much money spent on election campaigns in this Province it has been disgraceful. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR.

MARSHALL: And the first thing that we have to do is bring in regulations prohibiting MR. SMALLWOOD: Right. MR. MARSHALL: - and to put teeth 111fi

February 18, 1977 Tape 408 IB-1 !-1R. MARSHALL : in the regulations. And instead of providing for penalties, fines that the wealthy people might b~ able to pass out with a laugh and· regain it from pap and gr~f~ afterwards, I suggest what we do is we have mandatory jail sentences as the sanction behind these rules. I think this is the first thing that we have to attempt. MR. S~ ..ALL WOOD : Could that be done outside the ambit of the Criminal Code of Canada? }'F_ • . MARSHALL : Well 1 that is another issue. But ~_say, an~ay, we make the most stringent ones we can.

But the salient matter that I want to talk about here in this speech, ¥r. Speaker, is to express a great deal of sadness at the fact that an admission of that nature was made- not that it was made, it was truthfully mao.e- but that it occurred and that it had occurre~ and it occurs in governments, I know - and as the hon. member says long since past.

I do say though - and I know the press is very sensitive to criticism and it will probably result in, you know, different types of things occurring - but I do say that the press of this Province in this particular occasion, not on all occasions, had to be very soundly asleep that night to have this statement made by a former Premier and not even to have it noticed in the public press. Now I come back again - MR. S¥ALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman will curse on me men~al~y, but - . he has been very gracious and very generous in allowing me to question him.

Does he remember a speech I made here in the past year drawing attention to the peri~ous financial - state of the Province, followed the following day by a speech by .the hon. gentleman saying almost exactly the same thing,and the day after that a speech by the hon. member for St. John's North (Mi. J. Carter) saying exactly the same thing, the day after that a speech by ~r. John Crosbie saying exactly the same thing,and the day after that a speech by the Premier himself and not one word of it appeared in print on on the radio, not a word of the five speeches, not a word!-- }1R. MARSHALL : ~r.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman said that and, you know, he can draw it. I understand the hon. gentleman although he will ....... -illJ

February 18, 1977 Tape 408 IB-2 MR.. MARSHALL: probably be here for many more years, his political aspirations are not so long, mine are, I hope quite a bit longer. So I do not necessarily I want to go full scale into the press. But I do agree on the - AN HON. ~ER: Why not? MR. MAFBRALL: Because it gets hidden,you see~after a little while, you say something and then afterwards - but anyway I do not really seriously, I could not care less about that. But what I want to draw to the attention of this Assembly, I think the most_~nQrmous thing is that it was not noticed.

The other enormous thing is that it had - and very sadly - that it had to be said at all. In my speech I have talked about t"ro separate issues in this Province, one of which,the dream of heavy industrialization for the construction jobs,which has cost this Province,! am demonst.rated, I $ 500 mill ion. The other the matter of - well for want of another word - election expenses, election financing - there is another word that could describe it that I will not use - which has cost this Province between at least $250 million and $400 million. Taken at the most that is $900 million.

We go on a little bit farther, we will probably get down_if we get enough sense and see this Province is viable really after all,and this Province can support itself if it has the proper, as is say, direction and leadership in this Province. And the onus on the government at this time is heavier tpan it has ever be~n before because there are things to be done and there are very serious matters that have to be dealt with. ?-fy time is limited. I wish I could go on but I cannot.

But I want to just point out again that I would like to see - and I think it is a matter of urgency in this Assembly - instead of talking about the sex life of the rabbit and about la~~ers and what have you, as important as both the · sex life of the rabbit and lawyers are, not necessarily in that order, Mr. Speaker, that this Assembly should get down to the brass tacks of this Province, ""hat threatens to sink the ship of state,and that is these three major industries and what is to be done about it. I would like to have some words about it and I knolv other members would.

But before we do that we have to have a complete revelation as to the situation. I also think, 111~

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 409 Page 1 - mw Mr. Marshall. Mr. Speaker, that my main reason for speaking is to urge that there be a dramatic change in our attitude towards industrial and economic development in this Province. And when I say since 1949, I mean from 1949 to today. We can no longer bring _ ~n industry, which is costing this Province so dearly,purely and simply !or ~e purpose of bringing short-term construction jobs with tE~?normous long-term debt that it casts o~ the people of this Province.

But most important - I get back to my pet subject- and I say that this government has to continue, and it has to stop up any leaks that it may have in the public tendering system in this Province. And each and every member has to insist::::: 1nd if you do not ~1ow the reason why ·look at the proof you have of the speech given I by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) in the last session if you want a reason for it - every member has to insist that this government continue to carry on, follow that Public Tender Act right - in its spirit and its meaning ~~_!~ght_ down from the Section (1) right down to the end without there being any deviation whatsoever. And any deviation from it, I might say, will not receive my approval or what have you. As a matter of fact,it might receive certain other things. I, Mr.

Speaker, in closing would like to, because there have been references to the Public ~ender Act - I just put this in as an aside - in the Auditor General's Report, and it-has been much mooted. Another matter of great satisfaction to me is the fact that - - - ~ ___ .. before that public tender went in -__~ec~use _"!!~. ll.~ve sa~ h_ere _- we : will not talk about the previous administration - but before that public tender went in, there were no such observations. Why? Because there was no such thing as a Public Tender Act.

And it was this administration that created the machinery for the Auditor General to make the observations which he did. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALLL : Now having said that, at the same time, I look forward with great expectation to the promised explanation of the 111q

February 18, 1977 Tape no. 409 Page 2 - mw Mr. Marshall. hon. Minister of Public Works and Service~ to the alleged circumvention of the provisions of the Public Tender Act itself. I, too, want to know the name of company A, B and c. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: I, too, want to know, Mr.

Speaker, whether there were procedures implemented anyway at all to avoid the spirit of and int.ent ·of that act, and if there we!e, I will expect the hon. minister, as I know he is just as concerned about it,by the way as I am- he is just as concerned as I am - I will expect the hon. minister to take such steps as are necessary to see that there is no repetition, and if necessary, to make heads roll so that this will not occur. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~ MR. MARSHALL: We cannot afford, Mr.

Speaker, an administration, which after twenty-three years of its trusteeship of this Province, give to the people of this Province a legacy of, yea •. yet another $400 million of debt which is going to keep people out of hospital beds and children out of school. SOME HON. }!EMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have been waiting now for about a week and a half to speak.In view of those who have gone before me I ·neither have the desire nor the right to speak for longer than forty-five minutes, and I do not intend to speak for that length of time.

But I do have some concerns, Mr. Speaker, as a member of this House, not having been a member very long. I want to try and articulate those concerns as best I can during the period that I have. In one way I am happy that the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) went before me, because he did, in some ways, talk about some of the things that are of concern to me. As an elected member of the House, having -been elected just a year and-a-few months ago, it is probably one of the most difficult periods in Newfoundland's history,or in recent history anyway, for a person to be involved in public life.

There is no doubt that the demands being made on members of the Legislature, and on ministers 1120

February 18, 1977 Mr. White. Tape no. 409 Page 3 - mw of the govermnent,are greater now than they have been in a long, long time. I, like the member for St. Johnts East (Mr. ~~rshall) and others, am concerned about the financial position of the Province. I have to confes ,s I am not that much aware of exactly the kinds, or where the Province is in terms of its finances. I was rather __ .. _. -·---------- .. --- 1121 -.

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 410 NM- 1 MR. WHITE: suprised when the Premier spoke on opeping day and referred to the possibility,or inferred of the possibility,of the next three years the Bank of Canada becoming involved or three provinces or several provinces would essentially just fade out of the picture.

So then,as the Minister of Mines and Energy said when he was replying for the government to the non-confidence motion moved by th~ Leader of the Opposition,that we have to be,as members, concerned about the situation the Province is in and hopefully go back to our constituencies and tell our constituents exactly what kind of position the Province is in, why they cannot get water and sewer projects, why they cannot get road projects,and why we should not be putting great demands on government for various things. But I maintain, Mr.

Speaker, if the government expects us to do this · as elected representatives, all of us in this ._..,- . I Chamber, Government and Opposition, then tney have to be fair to all members and to all districts and to all people in Newfoundland • . Fair~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. WHITE: I am going to demonstrate, Mr. Speaker, in the next little while,one of the most unfair examples of partisan, political decision making that has gone on in Newfoundland in a long, long time and it is too bad that we have to do this. It is too bad that we have to do this, Mr. Speaker, because as the member for St.

John's East (Mr. Marshall) said, it might be better for all concerned if we could stand in this House and discuss the problems in Newfoundland without having to criticize and be strong in our words of criticism in respect of the government. Now I represent a district of about twenty-two communities, twenty-one or twenty-two communities, some of them -. are joined together, we have separate names and so on, so it is 1122

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 410 NM- 2 MR. WHITE: about twenty-one or twenty-two communities. Shortly after I got elected in September,l97S,a lot of the town councils within weeks were coming to me saying they had commitments for this and they had commitments for that and they had commitments for something else. Just about every community had a commitment of something or other. In some cases they had telegrams of commitments saying the tenders would be called and so on.

In the case of one community!tenders were actually called and the lowest bidder had been notified,and in another case-the tender was due to appear in the paper. So that is fine. Then the Prime Minister went on television in October, Thanksgiving Day,and announced the wage and price controls and so on. And then the Premier,who was in Ottawa at the time came back and announced it and so on. So that was fine,and I went back and told my people, "Look we are in hard times, do not expect to get your water and sewer projects this Summer1 and do not expect to ,get it for a while.

It is difficult times, a three year programme." And I was quite prepared to do that and this was my excuse every time, '~ell why do you not get on the air,and go after them, and fight 1and get in the House and ballyrag them and criticize them because they will not approve our water and sewer projects or our road projects?" And I said, "Well we cannot do that. We have to be a little bit sensible about this. We have to be somewhat responsible about this because the Province is in hard times and we are going to cut back on all those projects." Well that was fine.

But then we find out that in cutting back on those projects,the government does a very bad thing in my estimation and Mr. Speaker, I quite frankly do not want to be associated with politics in this Province. ·- MR. SMALLWOOD: Could I interrupt? Could we have a few more members come in? 112~

February 18, 1977 Tape No. 410 MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, what I was going to say i~ that then we were told that the government was going to go about to decide what projects would go ahead during the fiscal year 1976-77 and what would be cancelled. So first I have a list here, Mr. Speaker, of the ~ater and sewer projects and other grants to municipal councils in Newfoundland that were turned down last year.

Now this is the list that was tabled by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and I took the time to go through this list, to count .the number of projects that were refused and turned down and NM- 3 to find out in what districts they were. And I find out that we have a total of about fifty projects, Mr. Speaker, and of that forty projects are in Liberal districts, or-districts represented on this side of the House,and ten in districts on the other side of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: What? 1124 - .

February 18, 1977 Tape 411 PK- 1 Mr. White: · Now that is the water and/or sewer projects not approved in 1976, forty in Liberal districts and ten in P.C. districts. Now right here, Mr. Speaker, I have a list of projects that were approved, sixty-two projects altogether , that were approved, and the ones that were approved in districts represented by government members, I think it is about six_no about fifty-four or fifty-five, and the ones that were turned down - or the ones that were approved in Liberal districts was about seven or eight. Here we have a case, Mr.

Speaker, of blatant partisan politics being used directly-- no doubt about it,there is proof there of it.::. in terms of giving out grants to municipalities in Newfoundland. Now when I got into politics I thought that, you know, we would all be treated equally. I went and started to work with the municipal councils in my area. In many.cases I had to encourage them on occasion ·- '( to increase their municipal service fee. I have often talked w1th them about how they can get more revenue in. I have sat down with them and planned out different projects. In one community, Mr.

Speaker, we actually raised enough money to put in an artesian well by having walkatons and so on, a town council actually did that. So I come into elected office, come into politics, come in here, hear the Premier announce that no money to do anything this year, few projects will go ahead, ' but not very many, a halt to all capital spendang in Newfoundland, and then find out that the projects that were approved, the sixty-two projects that approved, ninety-odd per cent of them were in Tory districts, and of the fifty or so that were refused, ninety-six or ninety-seven per cent were in Liberal districts. AN RON.

MEMBER: They were ongo~ng. MR. WHITE: Just a moment. They were the same as the others. They were exactly the same as the others. AN BON. MEMBER: They were ·ongoing. MR. WHITE: No,they were not. They were exactly the same as the others, Mr. Speaker,and I know this. If they were ongoing, Mr. Speaker, how come they were ongoing only in districts represented by other members in this Chamber? 1125 -.

February 18, 1977 Tape 411 PK - 2 SOME BON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: And I tell you, Mr. Speaker, - MR. SIMMONS.:.. Skulduggery! Well you know it, skulduggery, boy! MR. WHITE: It is pure skulduggery, Mr. Speaker! MR. SIMMONS: Political promises. MR. WHITE: Pure partisan, political decision-making. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. LUNDRIGAN: With a cup of coffee, which is out of order, using phrases that he just used, I think he should withdraw out of respect for, if not the House, certainly the people in the gallery. MR.

MURPHY: Skulduggery, you cannot MR. SIMMONS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, if it is that. My colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) is making some excellent points, and I can understand the member from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) wants ~o try and get him off stride. Well first of .all, he is not going to. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Secondly, on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, there t is no rule against bringing tea into this House, it is not the worse thing that has been in here. There is no rule against it at all. And number two, Mr.

Speaker, if it is unparliamentary I will withdraw the term I used, the terms in describing this scandalous state of affairs my colleague as just described. I called it po1itical -prostitution._!; iit is out of order I will withdraw it, but I will continue to believe it. MR. WELLS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Kilbride. MR.

WELLS: I think the· whole question of the point of order is not that the member from Lewisporte has not the right to say what - ·he is speaking, he is· on his feet, it is he who should speak, and we are listening to him,those of us who are here, and listening with interest. But the whole thing of this point of order is to let him speak; and not to have other people standing around various parts of 1126

February 18, 1977 Tape 411 PK- 3 Mr. Wells: the Chamber interjecting. That is what is unfortunate. That is what is causing much of the problem in this House. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if I may respond to the member from Kilbride. It is obvious why he is no longer the government House leader. The member for Grand Falls rose and said that I had said something which was unparliamentary. I spoke to that point of order. If there is another one about interruptions I will be prepared to speak to that. As I understand the member for Grand Falls,he alleges that something that I have said is unparliamentary.

I submit tt is not, but I have given, Mr. Speaker, my undertaking that if it is I will gladly withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: Well I think the point made by the hon. member from Kilbride certainly bears repetition from the Chair, and that -is 1~hen an hon. member is speaking and _ ot_her hon. members on other sides engage in what starts of as light repartee soon ends in a general atmosphere of disorder which is neither to the benefit of an hon. member speaking or any hon. members who are endeavouring to hear him, and certainly something which all hon. members should refrain from doing. - .. 1127

February 18, 1977, Tape 412, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: -- with respect to the specific words to ·. which objection was taken, ._ ~ - ~~tu~lly __ I had originally thought it was something the hon. the member for Lewisporte (Mr.White) had said, but apparently that is not the case, It is some- thing the bon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) had said which I did not hear and which he had no right to say, not matter what they were, because he was not in his seat-and he was not recognized.

I would suggest we leave it at that,unless any bon. member insists on a rulin~~n~ I shall bave to find out precisely what was said. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may. I was going to arise, but the word I objected to was political '~skulduggery" on the part of the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White). I do not think "skuiduggery" is a word that is acceptable in parliament. That was my point of order. MR. SPEAKER: As I say, that was what I thought objection was taken to, but I understand that is not the case, that it was a different term. MR. LUNDRI GAN: Mr.

Speaker, I was referring to the bon. gentleman and his unparliamentary behaviour of standing in -· . the doorway, using phraseology he has_ now repeated from his ~eat~ which I think was somewhat unparliamentary. It is not some- thing that has not been heard about before.

The second thing that I did object to, and I still object to, Your Honour, again I will be guided by the Chair in any ruling, but I have understood that the bringing in of tea and beverages and things like that is not acceptable in the Chamber, !.lOt because there is anything wrong with a cup of tea or anything like that, but this adds to the lack of decorum and does not show the proper respect for parliament. This is parliament and I would like to hope that even if it is parliamentary to bring in your cup of tea and have a swig, that the bon. members would - MR. SIMMJNS : A swig of tea? 1128

February 18, 1977, Tape 412, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: -~ _· swig of anything. - that the bon. members would, Your Honour, considered it to be not the proper kind of thing for us to be doing in the Chamber and would refrain from doing it in the future. MR. SPEAKER: Well, the point certainly is clarified because I had originally thought that the point of order arose, as far as words were concerned, as far as what was said was concerned, arose with r~spect to what the hon. the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) was saying.

That is not the case and obviously the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir's -whatever he said -words were out of order because he was not in his place or recognized by the Chair. With respect to bringing beverages into the House, I am not going to make a specific ruling on that. If necessary I will, but it certainly has been my understanding that people have not, to my knowledge, consumed other than water in the House. MR. SIMMONS: To your knowledge? MR. SPEAKER: To my knowledge. So I would assume that has been a kind of agreement in the House. The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR.

WHITE: Thank you very much', Mr. Speaker. I hope this little interruption is taken into consideration in case I do get down to forty-five minutes. As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, we have been called upon as members of this House to try and appreciate the position we find ourselves in as a Province and to try and articulate and _explain that position to our constituents. The latest hon. member to mention that was the Minister of Mines and Energy, the me~ber for Green Bay (Mr.

Peckford),when he said, _ _!nstead of ·crying out for water and sewer projects all the time -go back and explain to the people that we are in this kind of situation. Well I did that until I saw what was going on. I was pointing out at the time, Mr. Speaker, that of all the 1129 -.

February 12, 1977, Tape 412, Page 3 -- apb MR." WHITE: projects going on in Newfoundland last year,the two lists that I have, the capital projects 1976 - 1977~ guaranteed loans, sixty-two projects and seven or eight,or eight or nine out of all those projects totalling $21 million were in Liberal districts and the remainder of those sixty-two projects were in P.C.districts in Newfoundland.

And of the water and/or sewer projects and other government projects going ahead,not approved in 1976, out of the fifty projects, forty that were cancelled were in Liberal districts and ten that were given the go-ahead were in P.C. districts. Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe this is the way politics work. If you are in office for a term of four or five years that during that term, if you are a minister, you try to get as much for the districts that support your government, and so on, as you can get.

We have very little precedent for this,because for twenty-three years in this Province, there were hardly any rural seats represented on the Opposition side,and consequently one could not take the examples that I have given today because in those days the Opposition members came from St. John's and -most of them - and there were very few cases of government actually getting involved to the extent that they would in rural Newfoundland. What I am saying is that maybe this syst~ is the system in this Province. Maybe it is - -- .-. - --- 1130 - ..

February 18, 1977 Tape 413 IB-1 .MR. MURPHY: Are you suggesting that St. John's does not count? MR. WHITE: Oh,St. John's counts, of course it counts! St. John's counts. But all I am saying, ¥r. Speaker - and if the member would listen - what I am saying is that for twenty-three years we did not have the kinds of examples we have today where we all represent rural seats. There are more on this side. than there are on that side. :MR. PECKFORD: Would the hon. member permit a question? ~. WHITE: No, ~r. Speaker, not at the moment. He did not - I should not say he, Mr.

Speaker, that is not prope~_- _ but I recall when the minister was speaking, the member for Stephenville (Mr. McNeil) wanted to put a question and he would not permit it so neither will I. SO¥E HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: So, Mr. Speaker, there we have an example of partisan political decision making, not decision making based on the populace of this Province, the needs of the populace of thfs Province,but based on sheer politics and where the votes are going to come from and so on. Now, Mr. Speaker, even that I could accept. Ok4y! Even that I could accept.

Fine, no problem there if that is the way the system works. Most of my constituents have come to see that that is the way the system works. They say, "Freeman, boy, you are in. Opposition, you know, and you are not going to get much for the district at least out of the provincial government. You will ge~ lots out of Ottawa, 11 as ' I will demonstrate later on. "But you are not going to get much • But, you know, there will he another election sometime and then we will have another go at it!' I do not believe it is very good politics to be doing this, Mr.

Speaker, because how are the people in rural N~~foundland represented by us over here .going to react, Mr. Speaker, in three years time when another election comes. They are going to say, "Hold!". There will be no such thing then as government candidates because there will be no government candidates at that stage. Both of us will have equal opportunity to get in government. So then I accepted that. Okay. Fine. No problem. The boys are going to - 1131

February 18~ 1977 Tape 413 IB-2 MR. PECKFORD: Of all the things down in Municipal Affairs that did not come out was the political patronage on the si