Manitoba Hansard — 28 April 1998 (Sitting 38, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES -and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 38- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, April 28, 1998 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2257 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 28, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of L. Barabash, G. La moureux, E. Karlinski and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to provide contracts for private firms.

READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Marti ndale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS the provincial government has embarked upon a proj ect in which it is closing hospital kitchens and having hospital food transported in from Toronto for reheating; and

WHEREAS this proposal will not improv e the quality of food but wi ll cost hundreds of jobs to the prov incial economy; and

WHEREAS on December 8th of 1997, the provincial cabinet staged a photo opportunity for the media in which government MLAs were served chicken breast from a chef flown in from Toronto for the occasion while the actual meal served residents that night was macaroni and peas; and

WHEREAS this proposal will result in more health care dollars bei ng spent on questionable priv atization proj ects; and

WHEREAS in December of 1997, the prov incial government was forced to drop a sim ilar priv atization scheme inv ol ving home care which had been opposed by the clients, families and the public; and

WHEREAS once again the prov incial government wi thout consultation has comm itted itself to a privatization proj ect which wi ll likely cost taxpayers more money for a poorer quality service, thus forgetting the patients who deserve better care. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health to consider immediately cancelling the hospital food proposal and concentrate on delivering quality health care instead of using health dollars to prov ide contracts for private firms.

Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to priv atize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs wi ll be lost over the next year as a result, wi th many more priv atized in the next two or three years; and

2258 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1998 THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses wi ll pro fit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food wi ll be shipp ed in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before bei ng shipp ed to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Ki limnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sec tor) and priv atization.

Invariably, pri vatization is more expensiv e. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, espec ially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatiz ation of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to pri vatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than I, 000 health care jobs wi ll be lost over the next year as a result, with many more priv atized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses wi ll profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnip eg, chi lled, prepared food wi ll be shipp ed in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before bei ng shipp ed to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Ki limnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sec tor) and pri vatization.

Invariably, priv atization is more expensiv e. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, es pecially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and pri vatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. * (1 335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, dir ects me to report progr ess and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29- The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1998 Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2259 Resources (Mr. Cummings), that leave be given to introduce Bi ll 29, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 98 (Loi de 19 98 modifiant diverses dispositions lt�gisla tives en matiere de fiscalite), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 32 - The Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) and seconded by the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), I move that leave be given to introduce Bi11 32, The Municipal Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les munic ipalites et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I am pleased to table the Li eutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 35-- The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 35, The Mental Health and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur Ia sante mentale et modifications correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I am pleased to also table a copy of His Honour's message. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon thirty Grades 11 and 12 students from Minnedosa Coll egiate and also from Baie-Comeau, Quebec, under the direction of Mr. Daniel Kiazyk.

This school is loca ted in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Gil leshammer). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Students-at-Risk Report Government Action Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the government has commissioned a report dealing with students at risk, and the participants were members of the government Department of Education, principals, superintendents, school administrators and others.

Regrettably, the findings are devastating in terms of the status of students at risk and their situation in our education system. The findings have the system overwhelmed; they have the resources as inadequate and state that students are becoming casualties of this system. Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) today: what action is his government taking and going to take to deal with the report on students at risk in Manitoba? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, we have spoken often recently in this Chamber and in government and to the wider public about students at risk and the various ways in which their needs can be addressed. Through the Children and Youth Secretariat, we have come together as departments to co-ordinate activities between and amongst the Departments of Education and Training, Health, Family Services, Justice and Native Affairs. With my col league the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), we are embarking upon initiatives

2260 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 for early intervention that take place prior to the school years beginning, so that students begin school ready to learn as opposed to beginning school disadvantaged, and they will take a wide range of initiatives ranging from nutrition to reading readiness and a whole series of other interventions. As well, once students begin school-members will recall in this year's budget that we have set aside a fair amount of money for early intervention and lit eracy, primarily through the Reading Recovery Program and things of that nature. * (1 340) Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to table a report conducted for the minister from Lindberg Consulting, where they conclude that the current resources in the education area are inadequate, that schools are investing more and more costs and resources to deal with the social needs at their doorstep, and there is a widespread belief that the provincial public policy is not-and the best interests of the students are moving in the opposite direction. Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon): why has his government and the Department of Education introduced policies that are moving in the opposite direction of what is in the best interests for students at risk here in Manitoba? Mrs. Mcintosh: I obviously do not accept the

preamble in the member's question_, beca�se the initiatives we are putting in place are bemg put m place designed to address some of the problem� that � e are able to identify. We have spent a lot of t1me trymg to identify what the risk factors are and how they should be addressed. We just recently have begun some initiatives. The Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson) recently, ju st last week, presented funding for a side-by-side program in one of the schools in Winnipeg whereby we are working with people who are not necessarily educators but housing them in schools to begin to address some of the societal needs that children at risk experience. We have an urban aboriginal strategy which is coming into being. We are working with a wide range of community groups to deal with li teracy probl�ms that begin to show in early years.

A lot of these thmgs are things that need to be done preschool, and we have identified and are beginning to implement initiatives in that arena. Mr. Doer: It is no wonder that the report talks about the lip service given to these issues by the ministry and the Minister of Education, regrettably. The report on page 12 goes on to say that at-risk students currently in the system at junior and senior high schools will continue to be casualties for at least five more years. The field and students cannot be left with this pain on their own. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Fil mon), instead of ju st providing lip service to the students at risk in our schools, some 20 percent of our students in Manitoba schools, what real action will he take to deal with this devastating report that was commissioned by the mini ster's own department? It had people from the minister's own department in it and still condemned the minister for lack of action for students at special risk. Mrs. Mcintosh: Again, I do not accept the

preamble the member insists on putting on the record. In putting forward ideas as to how to deal with students at risk, it is necessary first of all to identify what those risk factors are. We have had many and numerous experts in to the government to talk to the Children and Youth Secretariat and various ministries involved in it to identify the risk factors, identify the target groups to whom we need to address our efforts. We have begun putting forward both programs and funding to identify these as they are identified.

Madam Speaker, it is much more beneficial to take aim at specified targets than to do the wild, random shotgun approach ofthe members opposit� an? ju st aim at everything and anything without knowmg If you are going to achieve good results, so we have a concentrated effort. We have funding in programs currently being put in place to deal with these_ factors that have now been identified for us, confirmmg that which we knew and bringing to our attention things that we sought answers for. Students-at-Risk Report Government Action Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, after 10 years of the revolving door of Tory education policy,

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2261 we seem to have a minister who has not read the report, who has not understood the issues that people across Manitoba, 18 focus groups, are saying to her. I wanted to ask the minister: what is her response going to be to those 18 focus groups of principals, superintendents, teachers, student service advisers who are saying that all these groups, and I quote from the report, all the groups agree that Manitoba Education and Training should repair the breakdown in communication and trust? That is what has happened in Manitoba education.

What is the minister's response to that? Hon. Linda Mcint osh (Minister of Education and Training): Of course, the member quotes selectively again, out of context again. Madam Speaker, as I indicated, we need to identify first what our target is and then take solid aim at it. We are doing that. This year alone we have had a large amount of money being put into schools for students at risk, specifically in the city of Winnipeg alone, some $6 million for students at risk targeted specifically to key areas of concern.

Those kinds of initiatives need to be dealt with in an orderly way and we are doing that, notwithstanding the rhetoric of the members opposite who never did take a look at trying to identify what the risk factors were or make any attempt to try to address them when they were in government. * (1 345) Ms.

Friesen: Could the minister tell us what her response is-and I can assure her I am not quoting out of context-to people across the province who have told her, and I quote, there Is an overwhelming number of students who are currently in the system who are behind grade level expectations who have come into the grade without the prerequisite skills. I can tell you they came in in 19 98 and 19 99 when this government came to office. These students currently in the system are and will continue to be casualties for the next five years. The field and the students cannot be left to deal with this pain on their own.

Will the minister respond to that? Mrs. Mcintosh: The member can take a look then, for example, at recommendation one which says that we need an integrated approach. We need an integrated approach, Madam Speaker, and we have formed an integrated entity, the Children and Youth Secretariat. It has begun to do some of the other things that are mentioned in here. The integrated approach also indicated that they needed a school-l inked service delivery program-[ interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education and Training, to complete her response. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Also in that first recommendation, it indicated a need for a school-linked service deliv ery and, as I indicated in one of my earlier responses, the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) ju st last week was over presenting a cheque for a side-by-side program in a school that would address this type of initiative. The member will recall, as it talks in here about some of the things that are needed to be done in a preschool way, initiatives announced in the Minister of Finance's (Mr.

Stefanson) budget about early intervention and early child care and nutrition programs, teenage pregnancy and a number of those other issues. The member will note in the few weeks ahead other announcements coming in this area. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, with a final supplemen tary question. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Could the minister tell us why the report says that principals were the most vocal regarding the pressure on schools and the widespread impact on students at risk?

They tell us that many schools are actual ly pushing these students at risk out for fear of pulling down school results, and they, the principals, mistrust the political agenda and do not feel supported. Mrs. Mcint osh: I know the member is opposed to standard exams and assessment but, Madam Speaker, I can assure her that the vast majority of the public and educators in the classrooms support the kind of rigorous curricula and testing that is coming in pla ce. It does not push students out.

We have indicated emphasis on students at risk in terms of reading recovery, in terms of lit eracy intervention, in terms of funding that we are putting in place for li teracy groups outside the school system for those who have been a long time out of school and need to equip their li teracy skills. We are taking a serious look at the present time at the

2262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 aboriginal education to ensure a higher graduation rate. We put in place Partners for Careers that assures that those aboriginal students who do graduate can obtain jobs and serve as role models to inspire other students to remain in school and acquire the education that will launch them to success and the like. So most of these recommendations are already having initiatives towards them to be addressed. Students-at -Risk Report First Nations Schools Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions are also for the Minister of Education, and that is: given the fact that First-Nations-operated schools still fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Education with regard to standards even though they are federally funded and are being managed by the First Nations people, I want to ask the minister to give us one good reason why this study which was commissioned by this government did not include any First Nations schools. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): This speaks about students at risk, and we know that in various parts of Manitoba a large number of those students at risk are of aboriginal ancestry. Madam Speaker, they do in fact refer to aboriginal students. It talks about the abil ity to recognize and protest subtle yet powerful attitudes of bias and racism towards our aboriginal people needing to be addressed at all levels of the system. That is precisely what- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (135 0) Mrs. Mcintosh: That is a document tabled by the member opposite.

That is precisely what our new curricula is doing. We are threading through new curricula at all levels and in all subject areas, the aboriginal awareness perspectives precisely addressing this very point in very clear terms. We are doing it in partnership with other provinces in the western part of Canada, and we are seeing this as something that will address not just aboriginal students but all students, that all students should be aware of aboriginal perspectives, and cross-cultural awareness will lead to greater understanding and success for all.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, with his supplem entary question. Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, I feel like I should ask the minister that question over again because she never answered the question. I recognize that there are aboriginal students in towns and city schools, and they are under the jurisdiction of the provincial government. My question to the minister is: why did this study, which was commissioned by her government, not include those schools that are situated on First Nations territory? Mrs.

Mcintosh: I say to the member that students at risk, be they aboriginal or nonaboriginal, will have certain key things that need to be addressed, those being early intervention, those being identification of the factors that may inhibit their learning once they reach school. It does need to be a join t effort between the community, the home, the school and government. Madam Speaker, that is what we are trying to address. Federally run schools -and many of the schools the member is referring to are federally run, not provincially run- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Education and Training, to comple te her response. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. In Estimates over the last day and probably again today, we have been delving very deeply into this particular issue of the specific needs of Manitoba's aboriginal students and the ways in which the province is addressing those needs. I would invite the member he may wish to attend the Chamber this afternoon and sit in on Estimates of Expenditures and get detailed answers to those specific questions to enlighten him on our initiatives.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, with a final supplem entary question.

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2263 Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, my tina! question to the Minister of Education is: given that this government has a Native Education branch, which incidentally has been slashed from 12 to three, how can this branch be expected to bring forward releva nt aboriginal curriculum which this government has failed to do but is being recommended by this study? Mrs. Mcintosh: Again, the member would be well advised to attend the Chamber and sit in on Estimates because he could then-we have already answered that question for him.

He speaks about a branch that has gone from 12 to three. I tell you that we now have a department-wide initiative that involves many, many more than 12 people. We have a new directorate, reporting directly to both ministers of Education, of three people who are co-ordinating throughout government all aspects of the Department of Education, aboriginal initiatives and perspectives. So far from having gone from 12 to three, it has gone from 12 to every person involved in the curriculum writing, in all of the aspects of programming for schools.

That directorate is now reporting directly to the deputies and the minister as opposed to simply being a branch of the School Programs Division. So it has been definitely expanded in terms of its scope and its nature, and the number of people involved is much greater than before. Workers Compensation Board Budget Surplus Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, the 19 97 Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board indicates that the Workers Compensation Board now has a $54-million surplus.

I want to quote from the Workers Compensation Board's annual report of 1991 that says that the Workers Compensation Board's financial position and prospects have improved significantly as a result of the proclamation of Bill 59. The immediate financial effect of this bill was to reduce the expectation as to further costs attributed to past and future claims.

I want to ask the minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board to explain why his government gave 15 percent premium reductions to the employers of this province as a result of the 19 96 surplus, and there were no benefits accrued to the in jured workers of this province because you have penalized them, as is stated in your annual report in this province. Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Workers Compensation Act): Those of us on this side of the House, and I am sure most Manitobans, are very proud of the fact that we have eradicated a $234-million deficit, an accumulated debt that was put in place in about six short years, from 19 81 to 19 87. Prior to that, there was no debt. As a result, rates went up dramatically in the 19 80s and early 19 90s. We are very proud of the fact that the board has made decisions that have allowed them to be rid of this debt.

They no longer have to pay off that debt; they no longer have to pay off that interest and, in fact, have been able to reduce the rates to all of the employers across this province, and we are very proud of that. * (1 355) Mr. Reid: You cut the widows' and child ren's benefits as a result of your Bill 59. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the· honourable member for Transcona please pose his question now. Mr.

Reid: I want to ask the minister to explain the statement from another of his annual reports that says: the liability for short-term disability was significantly reduced in 19 92 as a result of changing from a payment system of 75 percent gross to 90 percent net after income tax for claims incurred subsequent to December 3 1 , 19 91, by virtue of legisla tion enacted by this government. I want to ask the minister: how many people have been affected as a result of your changes?

How many widows have been shortchanged as a result of your cutbacks, and how many dependent child ren have been shortchanged as a result of your legi slative changes in this House? Point of Order Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I know the honourable member for Transcona feels strongly and passionately for the matter that he brings forward, but

2264 LEGISLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1998 there are rules in this House that his House leader often reminds us all that we have to obey. There is a rule that we ought to address our comments through the Chair. Any comments made in the second person directly to a member on either side are out of order and unparlia mentary, and I would ask the honourable member to remember to speak through the Chair when he puts his questions in Question Period.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, indeed the honourable government House leader does have a point of order, and I would remind the honourable member for Transcona to direct his questions through the Chair. * * * Mr. Gillesh ammer: Madam Speaker, in addition to reducing that long-term debt and reducing the rates that employers have to pay annual ly, we have also brought in many service enhancements so that individuals who need to access the services of the Workers Compensation Board can get their cases heard and adjudicated in a timely fashion.

The remuneration that recipients receive is indeed equal to if not higher than it was previously. I would remind my honourable friend that we do have a board who makes these decisions. The board consists of public interest individuals, individuals from labour nominated by labour and also those that are nominated by employers. I know last year, when we had an opportunity to discuss this in commit tee, my honourable friend said: I have trust and confidence in members of the board and in Mr. Fox-Decent. These are the same people that he appears to be criticizing today.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, with a final supplemen tary question. Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board, since the number of reported accidents have increased by over 2,200 in this past reporting year up to over 43,0 00 reported workplace injuries in this province of Manitoba, how he can sit there, how his government can sit there and say that they can give rebates back to employers in this province.

He knows full well that the legi slative act that he brought into this House prohibits the Workers Compensation Board from sharing those surplus benefits with the inju red workers of this province. Why will he not do the right thing and share those surplus benefits with the inju red workers of this province as well? Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, the member seems to be troubled by the fact that the Workers Compensation Board that he praised last year in committee has been able to rid themselves of the debt, have paid off the accumula ted debt and are now offering premiums at a lower level.

There are rebates and lower levels of payments required by employers. At the same time, the board has seen fit to introduce last year and again this year a million dolla rs which is dedicated towards research and education grants. I know that the labour community has been particularly pleased by the fact they have had a tremendous amount of input into how this money is going to be spent. I certainly look forward to getting into that committee with my honourable friend so that we can get into these issues in more detail. Video Lottery Terminals Community Referendums Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Lotteries. The Gaming Commission is one of the groups that suggested that there is a need for referendums. Yesterday, we understand it was raised in Question Period that the Conservative candidate in Charleswood also sees the benefit and actually is saying communities should be allowed to decide if they want to ban VLTs.

My question to the government: when you have a by election going on and you have a candidate that is talking about allowing communities to decide whether or not VL Ts should be banned, is there not an obli gation on the government to come clean with the ele ctors in Charleswood in terms of what is this government's position? Are they in favour of allowing communities to decide whether or not they can have VLTs? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I think it is very

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2265 important in any election campaign that candidates who put their names forward to represent people express their views, their belie fs, issues that they will fight on behalf of the citizens that they represent. Our candidate has certainly done an excellent job of doing that in the constituency of Charleswood, and I am sure as a result of that will deserve the kind of support that should follow. In terms of the issue, the very specific question, Madam Speaker, we responded to it yesterday.

The independent Gaming Control Commission, which was one of the recommendations from the Desja rdins committee, has been implemented here in Manitoba. It has several issues to address, and one of the very important issues that it is currently addressing is the entire issue of referendums here in the province of Manitoba. We await their process and the final report that we will receive from them. * (14 00) Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Lotteries come clean and indicate to this Chamber that it is not the Gaming Commission's responsibility to determine the referendums, it is this government's responsibility? It is the people of Manitoba who hold this government accountable. The question to the Minister of Finance or the Minister responsible for Lotteries: does he or does he not support referendums for VL Ts? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I think somebody should check the mike for the member for Inkster to make sure that it is on and working.

We had no difficul ty hearing him; he does not have to shout. We have already indicated very clea rly that there is a process. The independent Gaming Control Commission is going through a review; it is doing some research on the issue. It will potentially hold some public meetings on the issue. It is obviously looking at other jurisdictions.

We have always said in terms of the gaming issues, the policy issues, they will be decided by government, but we certainly have in place with the independent Gaming Control Commission a body that will do an independent assessment, will do the kind of research and will have consultations with Manitobans. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, a jel lyfish comes to mind. My question- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Inkster that this is not a time for debate. He was recognized to pose his third and final question. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister responsible for Lotteries at least admit to this House that if in fact there is going to be any chance of a referendum, that decision has to be made well in advance so that at least we could have it done this year when we have municipal elections coming up this fall? If it is going to be past the fall, the referendums are not necessarily going to work for the next few years. Will he acknowledge that fact? Mr. Stefanson: No, I will not, Madam Speaker, because different ju risdictions have had different approaches with referendums.

One option is to have a referendum at the same time as municipal elections, which are currently held every three years in Manitoba. There are other options. Some jurisdictions have looked at having referendums based on a certain number of citizens coming forward calling for a referendum on a particular issue, so there are various ways to trigger a referendum without them necessarily only being at the time of municipal elections. Having said that, that certainly is one option, and that is one option that will be reviewed as part of this entire process. Hepatitis C Compensation Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, yesterday we introduced a motion into committee recommending that the Legisla ture and the House of Commons hold their free vote on extending compensation to all victims who have contracted hepatitis C from contaminated blood. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today if he will support this motion. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the motion moved by the member for

2266 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr il 28, 19 98 Osborne, which is certainly a very appropri ate motion, is resulting in a very good debate and discussion of this issue in the Committee of Supply, and I look forward to continuing that debate this afternoon. Maple Leaf Foods Plant Construction Contracts-Bid ding Process Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): The first constr uction contract awarded for the Maple Leaf hog plant in Brandon involves excavation and earth moving which is one type of work that any of the five Brandon based companies can handle.

This may not be the case in subsequent portions of the construction. Unfortunately, it provided no job opportunities for local workers. and also the contract was awarded on a closed or secretive basis. I would ask the Minister of Industry: given the fact that millio ns of public dollars are involved. would the minister take steps to have the bids for this particular tender award made public so that the taxpayers can be assured of the fairness of the process and of the decision? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker. let me say at the outset that I am extr emely pleased and proud that Manitobans were able to attract a plant of that magnitude to add to the overall economic base and 2,200 jobs to the province of Manitoba in the long term. Our parti cipation as a province was to support the infr astructure and training but not to get involved in the priva te development of this initiative which in fact is carried out by contractors fr om the pri vate investor. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Would the minister use his good offices to persuade the construction company and others involved to use an open-bidding system in the future so that contract boards will be made publ ic and everyone, including the taxpayers who do have a vested interest in this, not only fr om the city of Brandon but fr om the province of Manitoba-that everyone is fully inform ed? Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, again, I could reiter ate my first answer, but I think it is certainly the company that is doing the development to purchase the services, to purchase the goods in a manner which gives them the best product for probably the lowest price. I would leave it to them to answer to the member for Brandon East if he feels that he would like to ask them that question. We are extre mely pleased that the plant is being developed in the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, is the minister telling the House that he is not prepared to go to bat for the taxpayers in Manitoba to assure that there is an open- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Brandon East. to pose his question. Mr. Leonard Evans: The minister knows that we are fully supportive of the government's move in this respect. We are fully supportive of the plant. including everyone in the community. That is not the issue. Simply put.

Madam Speaker. will the minister use his good offices to ensure that all awards of tender in the future. and including this one. are made public so that the taxpayers of this province who do have a vested interest in this project and who welcome the project by and large. I bel ieve. are fully infor med? That is a straightforward request of a noncontrove rsial nature of this minister. Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker. I certainly am interested in the interests of the taxpayers.

That is why I have supported this government and worked very hard for I 0 years to bring forward balanced budgets and pay off the excruc iating debt that was imposed upon them by the NDP in the prov ince when they had their chance to be in government. Madam Speaker. this is a pri vate sector business initiative that is building a hog plant in Brandon. We are supporting the training and the infrastructure.

They are fr ee to carry out their activities in a way which will accomplish a world-class plant creating 2,200 jobs for the long term for this prov ince. [interjection] Madam Speaker. the member says I am not interested. Yes. I am interested in the development of

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2267 this pla nt and maximizing the employment of the people ofManitoba. * (1410 ) Amanda Cook Murder Investigation Departmental Review Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice: Manitobans today are hearing of a travesty of ju stice in the case regarding the slaying of 14 -year-old Amanda Cook, where the Crown has sought and the court has ordered a stay of proceedings, a stay of the charges on the basis that the evidence gathered by the RCMP had serious shortcomings. Indeed, a tape recording apparently had been tampered with.

The judge had serious questions about the credibili ty of the investigation and, as well, the procedures and the interviews that took pla ce of the accused. My question to the minister is: in addition to the internal RCMP investigation, what does this minister propose to do to reduce the risk of this kind of thing happening again? What is he going to do differently now? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, the first thing that I will not do is interfere with what is now an ongoing investigation.

I did have the opportunity to meet with both Chief Cl earsky and with Councillor Tim Cloud in respect to this issue. During the course of that meeting, both the chief and the councillor were very compli mentary of the Crown attorney in that particula r case who is a very experienced Crown attorney.

I am not about to second-guess what the Crown attorney is doing in this case, but I know that he has the interests of the people of Manitoba at heart, and he is doing the right thing, I believe, in staying the charges at this time so that the investigation can proceed and that ultimately the culpable party will be brought to justice. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister address the question, which was not about the Crown attorney, but why does he not feel it necessary to review the police procedures here, and will he not ensure that there is a review by his department?

After all, it is his department and this minister that is responsible for the contracting with the RCMP at a cost of about $50 million or more every year for the people of Manitoba. It is procedures. Will he review them? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I do not want to say anything that will prejudice any ongoing investigation, but I can assure the member that I have raised this particula r case with the appropriate individuals. It is not for this department to tell that federal police agency, although they are under contract to us, how it is to conduct its affairs.

At this time I am advised by senior prosecutors that this is an ongoing matter and that the investigation is continuing. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister possibly explain then, why, in his talk about what his department is responsible for, he goes on to talk about monitoring the services provided by the RCMP, making recommen dations about their policies and procedures while on the other hand saying that he will not do anything? When is the last time he reviewed the policies and procedures oflaw enforcement agencies in Manitoba?

When is the last time his department had seminars about the proper legal procedures to be followed in investigations and what instructions has his department given to law enforcement agencies? I am talking about general procedures. Mr. Toews: I can indicate, on another matter which we will be announcing very shortly, that our department has had very extensive discussions with the Winnipeg city police, with the RCMP and with other municipal forces in respect of the way in which certain legal issues are approached.

We realize that, even though I do not have direct control over the RCMP, it is in fact very important that both the Attorney General's department and the Department of Justice and the municipal police forces, including the provincial police, act in a co-ordinated fashion in the best interests of the people of Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker 's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. Order, please.

2268 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 On April 7, 19 98, the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Le onard Evans) rose on a point of order respecting the reading of members' statements. The government House leader made some input on the point of order as well, and I took the matter under advisement. The honourable member for Brandon East suggested that reading verbatim of speeches was not in order, although the use of notes was acceptable. He noted that many members were reading statements as opposed to giving speeches from notes.

The government House leader, in essence, concurred that the practice has tended toward more reading of speeches. He suggested that reading of questions and of statements was a reality of parliaments in the '90s. * (14 20) In considering the matter, I note that our Rule 33 prohibits with certain exceptions the reading of speeches during a debate. A member's statement, however, is not a debate, so it does not fall within the ambit of Rule 33. I would make the observation that minis terial statements are made from a prepared text.

I would also make the observation that members' statements are restricted to a very short period of time-two minutes. I have had a survey done of practices in other Canadian ju risdictions. Of the 11 Houses which responded, 10 allow members to read from a prepared text during members' statements. The 1 1th House does not have members' statements. When members' statements were considered by the Rules committee the issue of whether they could be read was not discussed by the committee. I would note that it seems to have become the practice in the House for members to read their statements.

Because there is no specific rule for the Chair to interpret, and because there was no position expressed by the Rules committee in its consideration of members' statements, it is difficult for the Chair to make a ruling. I would note that in the past, on issues like whether members had to stand to ask questions in Committee of Supply meeting in the Chamber, that matter was decided by putting the issue to the House. I am, therefore, suggesting that a similar approach be taken with respect to the matter raised by the honourable member for Brandon East.

If the House is willing to deal with the matter immediately, I would be prepared to put a question to the House. If there is a desire to have some time to consider the matter further, I would be prepared to put the question to the House at a later time, and I also suggest if there are concerns that perhaps the House leaders could arrange a meeting and discuss this if there is no will today to make an immediate decision. What is the will of the House? Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, this matter appears to me to be an excellen t candidate for some discussion at some future time. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yes, although we would concur with the fine assessment of the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) in terms of having the ability to debate without somebody writing your speech, we would certainly be willing to discuss the sentiments of the member for Brandon East at the Rules committee or at another appropriate committee. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable members for their advice. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Workplace Accidents Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): Each year in Canada, April 28 is designated as a national day of mourning for those who have been inju red or who have died in workplace accidents in Canada. Life is precious and all inju ries are preventable. Any workplace inju ry or fatality is a serious matter and of great concern. All of us are touched by workplace accidents, whether the person injured is old or young, male or female, someone who may have been working as a farmer, a logger- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Pembina was recognized for a member's

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2269 statement and I would request the co-operation of all members in the House in ensuring that that member is audibly heard over the roar of the private conversations going on. Mr. Dyck: Thank you, Madam Speaker. All of us are touched by workplace accidents whether a person injured is old or young, male or female, someone who may have been working as a farmer, a logger, a construction worker, miner, as a worker on an assembly line or in some other area of work.

From each incident that occurs, whether it results in a serious injury or not, we must learn the cause so that we can prevent simila r occurrences and ensure that such tragedies do not happen in the future. In the last decade, there have been significant reductions and improvements in accident rates and traumatic fatality rates. Employers and workers have been working as partners to ensure that workplaces become safer. This partnership must continue. As long as any worker is in jured or killed in a workplace accident, there is room for improvement.

We must remain dilig ent in continuing to make Manitoba's workplaces even safer and healthier. Inju ry and death in the workplace brings pain and suffering to co workers, families and friends. The day of mourning on April 28 gives all of us a chance to consider the serious nature of work and to set aside a few moments to think about those persons inju red or killed and to consider how we can all work towards the goal of elim inating all workplace accidents. Thank you. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, today, April 28, is the day of mourning for those who have lost their lives or been inju red in workplace accidents. On average, three Canadians lose their lives each working day as a result of workplace injuries. Each year more than 820,000 Canadians lose their lives in workplace accidents. One worker is killed or injured for every nine seconds of work time. In Manitoba last year, 43,83 1 workplace injury claims were filed, an increase of 2,296 over the previous year. In 19 97, 60 fatalities were reported in Manitoba. The previous year there were 49.

Many of these fatalities are as a result of an occupational disease, although not solely limited to that parti cula r area, because trauma claims a large number of workers as well. Madam Speaker, 17 ,306 Manitoba workplace injuries resulted in temporary or permanent disabil ity; 506 widow/widower pensions are issued, in addition to 348 children who lost a parent in a workplace accident. April 28 has been recognized by the Parlia ment of Canada as the Day of Mourning. This day was brought about by former NDP Churchill MP Rod Murphy.

I ask each and every member of this Legisla tive Assembly, in fact, all Manitobans, to rededicate ourselves to preventing workplace injuries and deaths. We mourn for the dead; we fight for the living. Manitoba Schools Science Symposium Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, this past weekend I had the opportunity to attend the 19 98 Manitoba Schools Science Symposium at the University of Winnipeg. The students in attendance were from all across this great province of ours, and they had worked extremely hard to gain that opportunity in their own school and in their own division.

There were 574 students in attendance, manning 503 projects. I might just mention to the honourable Minister of Education that this year there were more female students in attendance than that of male, which is indeed an interesting fact on the basis that science was once known as predominantly male driven. My daughter competed in the agricultural sector of this competition. I am extremely proud as a father of her accompli shments with a sil ver medal in environmental studies science component.

Not only did the students work extremely hard, which I am very much and acutely aware of the efforts that went into their involvement in this activity; however, I also want to draw the attention of honourable members to the extreme amount of work by the co-ordinators and all those involved in the putting on of this symposium. I would like to also recognize two participants from Portage Ia Prairie at the senior level. Loryssa Rossnagel and Vla d Gidzak both received gold medals and major awards from the Young Scientists of Canada.

Vlad will be this province's representative to the international science symposium in London, England, in the engineering and technol ogy category. I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone involved, including the departments of this government that

2270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 supported this symposium. Without that support, I am sure that this symposium would not have been the success that it was. *

(1430) Manitoba Heritage Federation Awards Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, it was my pleasure on Saturday evening to attend the Manitoba Heritage Federation awards banquet held in Neepawa and hosted quite admirably by the Margaret Laurence Home. Our heritage in Manitoba is something that we should really spend a lot of time teaching to the younger folks, younger Manitobans. It has always been my opinion that our heritage is something that is very important.

Indeed, it was George Santayana, the historian, who once said that if we do not learn our history we are bound to make the mistakes of our history. On Saturday night the Manitoba Heritage Federation took the time to recognize a lot of people from around the province who have made some very good contributions to preserving the heritage. I want to mention a few from the Parklands area who received awards that night, beginning with John and Kay Slabodzian of Dauphin for their work at the Trembowla Cross of Freedom-in fact, the Trembowla Cross of Freedom, as well, received an award that night-Mr.

Gerald Morran for his work at the Grandview Museum; Mary Prokopowich from Dauphin; and Ken Romaniuk and Val Sirski for their work in convincing the federal government to proclaim the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Resurrection in Dauphin a national historical site. I want to finish up by congratulating the organizational committee in Neepawa for doing an excellen t job in hosting a wonderful night and also the Margaret Laurence Home for hosting this year's annual awards banquet of the Manitoba Heritage Federation. Thank you. Law Enforcement Officers Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Spe� er, I was not planning to make a statement, but some_thmg that happened at Question Period causes me to_ r_Is�. I take strong obje ction when police officers are cntiCized and they have no avenue to respond to it. In a murder investigation-and being a former robbery homicide detective, I know how difficult it is-emotions are running high in the community, and there is strong pressure for the police to solve the crime, and a suspect does not want to tell you that he committed a murder.

So it is an abnormal situation where you are sitting down with a suspect who does not want to tell you something and you want him to put in writing what he did. So when RCMP officers are criticized for attempting to get a statement fal ling within the rules, and if there was not sufficient evidence to charge him without that statement, that statement became very important. After many, many hours of interviewing a suspect, what would they have to lose? They would keep going further and further. It is an art. It is not a science in a murder investigation, nor when the Crown prosecutor takes the case.

It is subjective. So when I hear a member of this Chamber criticizing RCMP officers, criticizing Crown attorneys, it is easy to second-guess, but it is a difficult job they do. It is easy to second-guess them, and it is very subjective. Overal l, we have good Crown attorneys, we have goo_d RCMP officers, good Winnipeg police officers. It IS easy to second-guess them for political purposes, but they do not deserve that, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Vodrey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2271 of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, unanimous consent had been granted to skip to line 23 .3. Industry Support Programs (

a) Mineral Exploration Assistance Program. The honourable Minister of Energy and Mines had 25 minutes remaining in this debate of the motion moved by the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). We ask the honourable minister to plea se proceed. Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Continuing my discussion on the use of the Mining Community Reserve Funds for the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program, I wanted to put on the record that

Section 44(3 )(

a) of The Mining Tax Act states as follows: in addition to all or any monies authorized to be expended under any other act of the Legisla ture, the Lieutenant Governor in Council, in his absolute discretion, may direct the expenditure from the Mining Community Reserve of such sums as he may specify for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension or the closing down of mining operations attributable to the depletion of ore deposits.

It is the position of my government that one of the best ways to sustain a mining community is to discover new ore deposits which will sustain the employment of persons residing in a mining community. How are new ore deposits discovered? Through explora tion. My government believes in taking a proactive approach to support this needed exploration, discovery and continued emplo yment rather than wait until a mine closes before initiating any action. This government's vision of the Mining Community Reserve is to provide for the development and maintenance of economically healthy mmmg communities.

This is achieved in two ways. The first is through maintaining the Mining Community Reserve to provide for communities in times of need; the second way is to take a proactive approach during times of development to help avert times of need. For this reason we have the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program which has as its objective: to increase exploration and stimulate activities that can lead to the development of new mines by providing financial assistance to companies/individuals conducting exploration in Manitoba.

We are also supporting through the Mining Community Reserve other community focused projects such as the recent funding support approved for an economic development officer for the LGD of Lynn Lake. In addition, my staff are presently examining a proposal for infrastructure support for the community of Bissett. The honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) is opposed to the transfer of funds from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue to help offset the incremental expenditure costs associated with MEAP.

If we had taken her approach, the annual alloca tion for MEAP would have remained at $1 million per year instead of the $3 million per year that we have presently alloca ted to the program. The result would have been fewer companies actively exploring in Manitoba and considerably less being spent by explora tionists in the province in an effort to discover new ore bodies.

I would lik e to take a moment to demonstrate how the Mining Community Reserve has been used specifically through MEAP to directly impact the four traditional mining districts of Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Lynn Lake Leaf Rapids, Thompson nickel belt and southeastern Manitoba. In 19 96-97 fiscal year, we transferred $1. 3 million from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue. In that same fiscal year, the total MEAP assistance dolla rs in support of the four traditional mining districts was approximately $2. 1 million.

For the '97-98 fiscal year, we are projecting to transf er an additional $1. 3 million from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue. In that same fiscal year, the total MEAP assistance dolla rs in support of the four traditional mining districts was approximately $1. 8 million. For 19 98-99, we expect this trend to continue in those areas. This demonstrates that the four traditional mining districts receive funding in excess of the total transfer from the Mining Community Reserve in support of MEAP. Yesterday the question was raised about the success of MEAP.

An evaluation of MEAP indicates that the program has been successful in increasing exploration activity in Manitoba and the number of new companies

2272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 to the province. As well, the majority of funds paid out through MEAP have been directed back into more explor ation by the companies, further enhancing chances of discovering new economical ore bodies. The program may not be the sole reason why companies select Manitoba to conduct exploration, but it is an important component in that decision-making process. In considering the economic impact of MEAP, the government funds invested as seed money have generated an incredible return from the industry.

This industry investment has in tum lever aged significant spin-off business further contributing to the economy of Manitoba. Furthermore, the exploration industry itself has indicated support for incentive programs reflecting government's commitment to the industry.

This commitment also demonstrates government's will ingness to take some of the risk in the continued development of Manitoba's second-largest resource industry. *( 14 50) Specifically, here is what industry had to say through a MEAP industry survey: 95 percent of MEAP participants are satisfied with the program and would like to see it continued; 73 percent reinvest assistance funds back into expl oration projects in Manitoba; 58 percent said MEAP was an important factor in attracting their company to Manitoba; 24 percent said they would not have conducted work without MEAP assistance; and 12 percent were unsure of their abil ity to conduct work without MEAP.

An economic impact assessment was conducted for all projects compl eted in 19 95-96, and 19 96-97. The following are some of the highlights of this assessment: $2.9 million of assistance attracted $1 3.9 million in exploration expenditures or, for every one dolla r of assistance, $4.76 was spent by industry. Of the total industry expenditures, $1 1 million was spent directly in Manitoba. The $II million of direct expenditures leveraged another $I O. I million in spin-off of business expenditures for a gross expenditure in Manitoba of $2 I.I million.

Every dollar in assistance represents $7 .I9 in gross expenditures. Total incremental tax revenue colle cted in Manitoba is estimated at $2.5 milli on, including federal, provincial, and local taxes. A total of 16 0 person years of direct and indirect emplo yment was created. Our own departmental statistics have also shed some lig ht on the successes of MEAP. Since inception of MEAP in I995, the number of companies operating in Manitoba has been on the rise.

In I995, 45 companies are operating; I996, 58 companies are operating, of which 23 were new; I997, 6I companies are operating, ofwhich I8 were new; I998 to date, 7I companies are operating, of which I3 are new. Since I9 95, 54 new companies have committed to exploration in the province. At previous sessions, the question of accountabili ty of that program was raised.

To ensure accountabili ty in the program, the following steps are undertaken: I 00 percent review of all applica tions by qualified geologis ts from Mines and Geological Service's branches; inspections of proje cts in progress, based on 30 percent of approved assistance funds by qualified field geologists; I 00 percent review of all companies' applica tions for payment, including all invoices and receipts, are reviewed by MEAP co-ordinator; I 00 percent review of all work conducted through companies' final project report by assessment geologists; company office audits of 20 percent of the paid assistance dol lars by internal government auditors.

These steps designed to ensure accountabil ity and integrity of the program were developed in concert with and approved by our internal auditors. MEAP has proved to be a successful program. Funding of the mining community reserve is being maintained at a level that will address the Manitoba mining community needs in both the short and the long term. Consequently, Mr. Chair, I would ask that the honourable member for St. James (Ms.

Mihychuk) consider withdrawing the motion or voting against her own motion, which now that she is aware of the facts and aware of the benefits of MEAP and the relevance and direct benefit to communities in Manitoba and mining in general and all taxpayers of the province, will now either, as I say, withdraw the motion or vote against her own motion. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2273 Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Well, I thank the minister for his comments and will be supporting my motion, and my motion was directed at the use of the Mining Reserve Fund for funding MEAP.

The minister knows that we have discussed accountabili ty issues and the effectiveness of MEAP, but I have in general been quite supportive ofMEAP, and I have said on several occasions that I belie ve it should come out of general revenue, but I do not support the accounting procedure of moving it out of the Mining Reserve Fund, then into general reven ue, and then into MEAP. I believe the money is really needed in the Mining Reserve Fund, and I am prepared to move on off of this line after the vote. Mr. Chairperson : Is the committee ready for the question?

The question is as follows: that this committee condemn this minister and the provincial government for transferring $6 million out of the Mining Reserve Fund to general revenues instead of directing the funds to the needs of the miners, their families and the businesses in their mining communities. Voice Vote Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Chairperson� Ali ihose opposed to the motion, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have it. decla re the motion def eated. * * * Ms.

Mihychuk: I move for consensus to move back into line 23 .2.(

c) Mines. There are several more questions I would like to comple te in that area before we move on to Geological Services. Mr. Chairperson : For the benefit of the committee, we do not need consensus or unanimous consent to move back from the previous line. We just need unanimous consent to move- An Honourable Member: To get out of it. Mr. Chairperson: To get out of it. So if the honourable member would like to revert to

section 23 .2. Energy and Mineral Resources (

c) Mines

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,370,900. Ms. Mihychuk: There are several areas that I would like to ask some questions on, and they include some questions on the inspection process that we have in effect, and I might as well start in that area, I guess. Can the minister tell us how many claims inspectors we have now in the department? Mr. Newman: One. Ms. Mihychuk: Is that a tra ditional or a historic average? Let us say, 10 years ago how many claims inspectors did the department have? Mr. Newman: Two. Ms.

Mihychuk: Does the minister believe that this one individual is sufficient to do the necessary claims inspections for the whole province? Mr. Newman: It is working adequately at this time. * (1 500) Ms. Mihychuk: Is the claims inspector that the department has based in Flin Flon or The Pas? Sorry, I think it is The Pas. Mr. New man: Based in The Pas. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many claims we have in Manitoba, and how many visits the claims insp ector has made to the various regions in Manitoba?

I know that we have some claims in southeast Manitoba, for example, and it is quite a long distance to go all the way from The Pas down to the Lake of the Woods area. Mr. Newman: My staff does not have those numbers with them. We can undertake to give you those

2274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 numbers if you wish, but we do not have them handy today. Ms. Mihychuk: Has the support budget for the claims inspector been increased now that that one individual is required to cover the whole province? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister provide that information as to what his supports were previously when there were two inspectors versus now when he has total responsibility? Mr. Newman: We will provide you with that information. They do not have that readily available. Ms.

Mihychuk: Did the minister indicate that we did not have the information as to the number of claims that are active in Manitoba at this time? Mr. Newman: That was my answer. The figures I gave you yesterday were the registered claims, the newly recorded claims for the year. You provided some figures which I assumed were figures that represented the total active claims in Manitoba, but I have not had those valida ted. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate if it is the goal of the inspection program to do a visit on each new claim and then what percentage of old claims, or is there a standard policy for this type of inspection? Mr. Newman: All claims are not inspected. Those with anticipated or known problems are investigated, and there is a random investigation as well. Ms. Mihychuk: I thank the minister, and I hope the report will indicate the number of visits of new claims and past or traditional or continuing claims, and that should satisfy my inquiries.

In terms of inspections for pits and quarries, it is my understanding that there are four inspectors and that these inspectors do basically two jobs, the supervision or the maintenance of the rehabil itation program as well as inspections. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: That is correct. Ms. Mihychuk: Traditionally or historically, the department, I believe, empl oyed three geologists or three inspectors who worked full time doing pit and quarry inspections. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: That is correct. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate-! guess what I am trying to get at is that the rehabil itation program is a new project that started two or three years ago, I think, and involves the rehabilit ation of pits and quarries, somewhat labour intensive perhaps. I am wondering if we have had to sacrifice on the number of inspections we are making because there are additional responsibilities now for the rehabilit ation program. Mr. Newman: The pits and quarries rehabilit ation initiative began in 19 93.

Initially, there were three pits and quarry inspectors of the rehabili tation, and then over more recent years there have been four. Once again the opinion of my director is that the way the work is organized their numbers are adequate to do a satisfactory job. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of pits and quarries that are active? By this, I mean there are those that are actively being mined and have some sort of disposition or a quarry lease or a permit, and then there are hundreds of pits and quarries in our rural areas that are available for further mining.

So have we got an indication of the number of active pits and those that are available for additional extraction? Mr. Newman: The eval uation that has been done by the department is that there are approximately 6,000 pits in the province of which approximately 1 ,000 operate at any given time, and that includes private and Crown. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us the aggregate reserves in a 60-mile radius of Winnipeg and the len gth oftime that we have supply for the city of Winnipeg? Mr. Newman: Are you sure you do not want it within 30 mil es of Winnipeg or 61 miles? You want it 60 miles, within 60 miles.

Ms. Mihychuk: I am flexible. It could be 10 0 kilo metres.

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2275 Mr. Newman: I am a little facetious in that I guess I have difficulty understanding whether or not having that sort of finite evaluation of reserves within that area would be readily available, but is there some magic to the sixty-mile- Ms. Mihychuk: No. Mr. Newman: No. Okay, within range of Winnipeg sort of thing. Ms. Mihychuk: Sure. * (1510 ) Mr.

Newman: We are both being given the comfort by my staff that, based on their best ju dgment, there is adequate known supply for the needs of the Winnipeg area, and we are talking about-! have used the expression within one hour, sort of, driving distance of Winnipeg for the next approximately 20 years. Ms. Mihychuk: It is a concern to many rural municipalities, and I mentioned this in my own opening statements, as well as to the people of Winnipeg that a reasonable source be fairly close, managed properly and available for the future.

The reeve or the mayor of a southern municipality, I believe around Winkler, Morden, indicated to me at the Morris Stampede that they were facing a real crisis in terms of supply to maintain the road system which is now their responsibility and, in fact, had sent a letter to the government saying that they could not under their present financial circumstances maintain the roads because in their case, there is no aggregate down there that is of sufficient quality.

It is very high in shale and the resources are just not available in southern Manitoba, that they actually import it from the States and that it was extremely expensive, and they wanted to turn over the whole maintenance of the road system to somebody else because it was going to bankrupt their municipality. Is the minister aware of this type of crisis out there in rural Manitoba, particularly, I would say, from Winnipeg south, probably south of Portage Ia Prairie, where quality reserves have been depleted? Mr.

Newman: I would invite you to have that individual, or through you, share all the details of that with myself and my staff, and we will take a look at that. We do not have knowledge of that specific situation and would be very pleased to take a look at it and respond. Ms.

Mihychuk: The other area that is of particula r interest is the huge supply of material that we have in Birds Hill, and there was recent alarm when the parks, Natural Resources, went around and they were looking at protected areas, and some concern was raised, well, the government will go into Birds Hill and mine it, and there was a clause at that time indicating that, no, that was not the intention of the government to open large gravel pits in Birds Hill.

Obviously, it is very close to Seddons Corner or I mean to the area of gravel extraction south of Birds Hill, and Birds Hill itself is actually a gravel deposit. Has there been an estimate made of the value of Birds Hill in terms of an aggregate supply? Mr. Newman: No. Ms. Mihychuk: There is, I think, right now the concern about having to look at that as a potential has been put on hold, but I am concerned about the reserves in terms of feeding Winnipeg's needs and what looks like Manitoba's crisis in terms of road infrastructure.

We have seen lately several stories in the paper talking about the need to invest in our roadway system. There has been rail line abandonment which means that there is more and more use of our municipal and provincial highways which means, of course, municipalities have to grade more and provide more material to maintain those roads.

So from what was a federal jurisdiction, we have now moved it onto the province and ultimately on local municipalities, and the need to have significant good quality aggregate is going to become, in my opinion, even more critical to those municipalities as they look to maintaining roads which are going to be used to even a greater degree than they have in the past. We have seen some municip alities looking at closin g some roads because they cannot maintain their full network.

So this is an issue I think that we should anticipate as a government, as a province, that we need to establish fairly good monitoring of the reserves available and ensure that they are there for the future and that if we

2276 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 are going to look at doubling our expenditures in Highways, that is going to have a significant impact, for instance, on reserves available and the cost of those reserves. So I look to the minister to look for some planning in terms of our aggregate resources in the Capital Region and ensure that those municipalities that are in a desperate situation will have the abil ity to have quality material at a reasonable price.

This is something, I think, that will become more and more critical as we move on towards the new transportation reality for our farmers and our rural area. Mr. Newman: Given your background having worked in the department and particularly in this area, I can appreciate the quality of the questions you are asking here, and maybe for the benefit of whoever will read this record, I can expand on some of the kind of detail and at the same time respond to your question. In the aggregate inventory program, there are, of course, priorities that are established by the department.

One of the near-term priorities under this heading for the next three, that is '99 and 2000 through 2001, 2002, the near-term priorities include a completing and updating of the aggregate resources maps for the Capital Region area including the R.M.s of Tache and St. Clements, updating of aggregate resource assessments for major urban areas including supply demand forecasting and a digital compila tion of the aggregate database.

Your question, which I believe was in relation to Morris, in a broader context and to put that in a context, many parts of southern Manitoba are aggregate poor which does require municipalities and highways to bear the burden of high transportation costs in many areas, and no amount of additional mapping will change the fact of the natural resources in particular areas of the province. Examples are that Portage Ia Prairie imports gravel from the Interlake and Brandon areas because there are no local sources of high quality aggregate. I say that for the benefit of the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr.

Faurschou) who is here. Grunthal is a major supplier, on the other hand, of aggregate to aggregate-poor R.M.s on the cla y plane south of Winnipeg. In several places in western and southwestern Manitoba, we export aggregate to communities in Saskatchewan. So we have to put each individual situation in its appropriate context and also in that broader province-wide kind of context.

We do foresee the need and desirability of conducting a broad regional assessment of aggregate supply and demand across southern Manitoba, so that those areas rich in these resources can effectively pla n not only for their needs but for the needs of their neighbours. That is the kind of process which may be of some benefit to Morris and certainly would be for Morden and Miami as well.

When you pose the specifics of your situation. the response will serve not only that immediate community but any other munic ipalities, and we will make that known to the appropriate municipal association in its perhaps newly emerged form. *

(1520) Ms. Mihychuk: There seems to have been in the last couple of Estimates the perception that perhaps Manitoba's aggregate resources had been fully defined. I would, I guess, challenge that concept. Our aggregate reserves are formed in a geological process. Some of them are buried under Lake Agassiz clays. I remember specifically an example in Ontario where they have an intense need for aggregate in the Toronto-southern Ontario area, where a geologist was able to discover a fairly significant deposit under a fairly shallow clay cover.

This was very recent, in the last probably I 0 years, worth maybe a considerable sum, millions. So that potential is also there in Manitoba. It is one of those Voiseys. If you could find something under the Lake Agassiz clays that was available for those southern municipalities, you are talking significant deposit in Manitoba. So I guess to ensure that the minister understands, that although it may not be as glamorous as diamonds and gold, it is very valuable, and the same geological processes follow through.

Just as we have geologists who are exploring for base metals, there are geologists exploring for aggregates, and the department used to have a fairly significant group of individuals-! do not remember the peak, maybe five or seven-who were out there doing that type of exploration. I would urge the

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2277 minis ter to perhaps give that some reflection, as we have now moved away from that sector I would say almost completely. So there is still potential to find new deposits. The challenge is greater because they are not sitting at surface, or they are not going to be right there beside the highway, but that does not mean that that type of effort should not be put forth, in my opinion, that we do need to diversify our inventories in terms of metals, base metals and precious metals.

That is very important, but it is also important to have people working on industrial minerals and in aggregate sectors and in the peat industry, that we have seen dramatic success in those various sectors. So I ju st urge the minister to remember that the door on new deposits in terms of pits and quarries should not be closed. Manitoba has the potential. I think there is a certain onus on behalf of government given that you do actively explore in other sectors in the minerals field to do some of that work in aggregate as wel l. Mr. Newman: I congratulate you for these constructive suggestions.

I treat what you have said as being unequivocally supportive of the industrial minerals initiative that I have asked my department to put into place, and this is definitely a part of it. Again, the approach that the official opposition might take in theory to this kind of issue, which is to hire more civil servants, is not necessarily the approach that our government sees to the solution. To the extent that we can induce the private sector to do that job, with our encouragement, we expect to get positive results, but your comments are certainly appreciated and are very relevant. Ms.

Mihychuk: Just a couple of more questions on the rehabil itation fund. This was establish ed-and I thank the minister for the clarifica tion-in 19 93. Can the minister indicate what the balance is of that fund now? Mr. Newman: The March 31 , 19 98, balance is $5,356 ,812. Ms. Mihychuk: What do we expect to expend of that fund on rehabil itation in the upcoming year? Mr. New man: I will give you the historic expenditures. The amount collected in the beginning of this initiative for '92-93 was $987, 14 8. That has accumula ted at over $1 million a year, so the total amount coll ected was $8,2 12 ,338.

Of that, $2,855,525 was expended in annual amounts of '93-94, $490,000 and change; 19 94-95, $696,000; 19 95-96, $53 7,000; 19 96-97, $501 ,000; 19 97-98, $629,000. So what will be spent in '98-99? I spoke to the heavy construction industry and to my staff, and I really challenged them to get to work and see if a more aggressive approach can be taken to it. It is challenging the industry as much as anybody else and making sure that we do not impede them through our scrutiny of applications in moving ahead.

The result of that is that the hope and, indeed, a goal of our department-and bear in mind it is not within our control. Our hope and goal is to have $750,000, $800,000 expended out of the fund for that purpose. *

(1530) Ms. Mihychuk: Well, on an annual basis, I get letters of concern from the industry, and I would suspect that it is probably the same company, but the issues that the company raises, I think, deserve some merit and some question. So I am going to ask on behalf of this gravel contractor some of his-or there could be a woman, you never know. I think there is one female operator in the business, so that needs to improve as well, but anyway, I divert.

The questions raised are rela ted to the rehabil itation account and the cleanup, and they expressed concern that it is not being expended at the same rate as it is being collected. But I think of even more significant concern is, and I want to quote: As a contractor in this industry, I personally know there were a lot of accidents in gravel pits and quarries this year as compared to previous years.

It is my understanding that the mines inspectors for the department have as a priority the pit rehabil itation and not the safety inspections, and, further, some pits are safety inspected by the Department of Labour, and some are inspected by Energy and Mines. This is confusing for the pit owner who moves around the province to work. As an employer and a worker, I do not object to safety inspections if it may prevent inju ries at the worksite, but the priority should be to conduct safety

2278 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 inspections and not clean up gravel pits. The safety inspection should be done by one department only. So I look to the minister to respond to the concern that this gravel contractor has expressed in his letter dated January 27, 19 98. Mr. Newman: I do not recall ever receiving that letter. I have asked my department responsible or the staff responsible in that area, and they do not have any knowledge of that letter. I take it the letter is an anonymous letter- Ms. Mihychuk: I can share it with you. Mr.

Newman: Yes, and I would appreciate that is their return address on it there? Ms. Mihychuk: Ifl did I would have contacted them. Mr. Newman: Okay, so we have an anonymous letter that has no return address. But whether that is so or not, if the points are rel evant and hel pful, and I belie ve they are-I mean, if what is said there is true, it seems to me to be a reason to consider an integrated approach for inspections between departments.

We have done that in many other situations, so the very fact that this has been raised-my deputy is here and assistant deputy Minister of Mines and I am sure their ears perked up ju st li ke mine did-I do not have to tell them that I am interested in having what is suggested there reviewed. I will want some advice as to what could be done to address that, what appears to be a potential inefficiency and a potential duplica tion and a potential confusion to the customers in the gravel business. Whatever the source, it is something that is worthy of consideration and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Ms.

Mihychuk: For the minister and the department's information, I have given the letter to the clerk who will be making copies for your perusal, but, unfortunately, the person did not identifY themselves. I appreciate the minister's comments that they will review the situation and ensure that those concerns are addressed. I would lik e to ask a couple of questions on the Prospectors Program, and I understand that grants are given to prospectors and that this is a fairly new program. Can the minister outline what the program involves? Mr.

Newman: In 19 92, Energy and Mines introduced the Manitoba Prospectors Assistance Program which is an incentive program directed towards self-employed prospectors and designed to boost mineral exploration in Manitoba. The program was considered necessary in lig ht of the alarm ing decrease in explor ation across Canada and Manitoba, particularly since 19 90 when the federally funded flow-through share financing program for junior explor ation companies was discontinued.

It is a funding program and to qualifY for the funding, an applicant must hold a Manitoba prospecting licence, be experienced and self-employed, have a prospecting project within Manitoba on mining claims held by the applica nt, or on open Crown mineral land, and have a prospecting target. Qualified applica nts may receive up to 50 percent of expenditures incurred to a maximum assistance level of $7,500 per year. The 19 98-99 funds made availa ble is $1 25,000 in total. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what is required to receive a Manitoba licence as a prospector? Mr. Newman: Apply and pay $10 . Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, the criteria is not too tough, I do not think. Has consideration been given to requiring some sort of training in terms of prospecting? Mr. Newman: The other criteria are experienced, self employed. If you are wondering whether or not for general purposes there should be some training prerequisite to obtaining a licence to prospect, no thought has been given to that, no research, no effort, no requests for that.

If you are making a request, please stipulate that and then a request has been made, and we will have to consider it, but you will have been the first to have ever done that, that we know. Ms. Mihychuk: Have any of the prospectors that receive this grant work for companies that are also receiving MEAPs? Mr. Newman: My department staff are not aware of any such situation. Maybe you could el aborate more and give us a hypothetical situation, and then we could focus our attention on it. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I know that many companies, mining companies, exploration companies will hire

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2279 local individuals who have some experience in prospecting. They can recognize boulders that have some mineraliz ation. I remember that in New foundland, if you found a boulder of a certain size, you got paid X number of dol lars, so you would get a direct payment. So people were scrambling around, and they would throw these boulders in the back of pickup trucks because, of course, you would never want to leave it there where it was.

That is part of business and those companies want to know where that information, where that boulder was found, but they do not want anyone else to know about it. So there are all types of exploration that goes on and prospecting is one of those areas where regular, local people can be involved. Many of them are out there doing their bit and trying to find something significant, and they can be and often are hired by mining companies to do a little bit of exploration for them. So I think that it would be quite possible to have a company out there working and having local prospectors doing some work for them. *

(1540) Mr. Newman: I have no doubt about that, but in terms of the project which is funded through the appli cant for prospectors' assistance, the dolla rs are being paid in relation to the prospecting project which is described in the application, so if in addition to that proje ct, funded up to 50 percent of expenditures to a maximum of $7,500 per year, you are simply examining or speculating about the possibil ity of that individual entrepreneur supplementing that relatively modest income by some other contractual arrangement with a mining company like HBM&S or Inco.

Cer tainly that is possible in relation to another project. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many prospectors, licensed prospectors, are of aboriginal descent? Mr. David Faurschou, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Newman: We do not keep those statistics. There is nothing in the applica tion form that shows what your ethnic, national, religious background, ancestry is, so we do not have those statistics.

We certainly do know ju st by observation and knowledge of individual human beings who are prospectors that there are definitely aboriginals who are prospectors who have licences in Manitoba, but we do not have a record of that for any group classified in those sorts of ways. Ms. Mihychuk: This seems to me to be an area where we could do some proactive work with First Nations in terms of informing them of the program, providing some, perhaps, colla boration, if there was that will, with First Nations peoples in terms of training.

Some training in prospecting may be useful, especially for people who are not familia r with geology at all. Since the requirements are quite minim al, this may be an opportunity for First Nations to explore and to be informed. Can the minister indicate what has happened in terms of informing First Nations communities of this program and how to become involved and eligible, et cetera, in the past year, or are there pla ns in the future? Mr. Newman: Once again, I think you have made a very constructive suggestion that is a very affordable kind of participation, the first step getting your licence.

There have been prospector training programs in the past even in First Nations communities, Split Lake, Nelson House, and it has been done on a response-to request basis for the most part.

The ninth point of our mining strategy which we discussed previously dealing with aboriginal involvement and better understanding in mining and expl oration, my staff, having workshops coming up imminently, will be making sure that this particula r aspect of involvement of aboriginal people will be discussed, and we will use any forum where there is interaction with aboriginal people through our Energy and Mines department to expose them to the opportunities and encourage their involvemen t in careers and entrepreneurial opportunities in mining and encourage them to get the best training and experience available.

Ms. Mihychuk: The availability or the training of people into prospecting is I think a wort hwhile endeavour, and I am glad that the minister will look into that. The First Nations are a sector that I think should be informed, as well as perhaps in our mining

2280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 communities where we are facing difficulties, as we have talked about before. If people can go out and do some of this exploration on their own, then perhaps that will assist not only themselves but those mining communities in finding those reserves which are so important to keeping the mining communities alive and well. So I am pleased that the minister is responsive and going to investigate.

In the area of the Mines Branch, one of the other things that I noticed in terms of the Activity Identification, which is in our Estimates, is the compiling of inventory of aggregate resources in the province. It was my understanding that this jurisdiction has actually been moved to Geological Services. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: Yes. * (1 550) Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps next year that could be removed from this Estimates.

I think it was probably just an oversight, but that has been moved over, and are there intentions to have the individual who deals with land use management which deals with conflicts of resource utili zation and who worked very closely with the aggregate geologist to be moved as well, or is the intention to have that individual remain with the Mines Branch? Mr. Newman: That individual will remain with the Mines Branch. Ms. Mihychuk: Under the area of Expected Results, the Mines Branch indicates the successful completion of projects and the publishing of maps and reports.

Can we have an indication of what types of maps and reports have been published from the Mines Branch? Mr. Newman: The digitization of claims maps is to be completed in November of 19 98, and the digitization of assessment reports, which will eventually go onto the Internet. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of employees or workers in the mining sector? Those statistics, are they maintained by the Mines Branch? Mr. Newman: The figure that we have used as the rough figure for employees directly involved in the mining industry in Manitoba is 3,000.

More specific data that I had readily available was the reported employ ment levels of the companies with operating mines in the province, and that figure is ju st over 2,000. Then, in addition to those 2,000 directly in those mining companies, there are the companies without active mines; there are the self-employed prospector types. It does not include the mining supply companies. So the figure that we use that came from the Mining Association of Manitoba to describe those directly employed in mining is approximately 3,000. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister provide us with a historical perspective?

Has there been a decrease in the number of workers? I know very recently we have seen layoffs at loco. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) was indicating that there was that type of job reductions in Thompson, and we know that there were jo b losses because of the cl osure in Bissett. But I am wondering in terms of a historical record for the past five years, have we seen significant changes in the emplo yment numbers for individuals working directly in the mining sector, and are those numbers available? Mr.

Newman: The numbers have declined for a variety of reasons, which include everything from mine closin gs to technological devel opments to whatever rational izations companies have, from a figure of what was, again, an approximate figure lik e the 3,000 that was used in general discussions, to 4,30 0 over the last five years or so. * (1 600) Ms. Mihychuk: It is a little shocking, actual ly, the actual number of workers in the mining field. I have a report from the Mining Association. I have not had an opportunity to check what their numbers are, but I guess I am a I ittle bit surprised.

This is March 21- 1 have ju st loca ted it-March 21, 19 96, and the Mining Association indicates that mining employs 4,600 people directly and another 13 ,800 indirectly. So perhaps we need to be cautious about using their numbers, because this was as of 19 96, and I believe that I have seen in press releases from the department, from the minister, numbers indicating approximately

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 228 1 4,300 employed in the mining sector. So perhaps we need to ascertain where the actual numbers are coming from. I mean, it is very important to understand how many people are working in the mining sector if we have gone down from 4,600, 4,300 since 19 95 to 2,000. Are those comparable numbers? Has there really been the loss of almost 50 percent of jobs in the mining sector in the last three or four years, or is it a difference in the source of the numbers that is perhaps causing such a dramatic difference?

So I look to the minister to perhaps provide some insight as to the disparity in the numbers that have been recently reported and now what we learn is actually closer to 2,000 people working in the mining industry in Manitoba, which is, ifl am not mistaken, perhaps the lowest level of empl oyment in the mining industry in Manitoba ever. Perhaps the minister has some insight as to this discrepancy in the numbers, and what is the situation for mining in Manitoba? How many workers are employed in the mining sector? Mr.

Newman: We have, of course, placed reliance on the figures that come out of the association representing the mining industry. We do not have a right to ask these private companies to give us regular reports on what their employment levels are or indeed what they are going to be or even what they have been. So it is an indicator of the contribution mining does make to the province. So we find it of some value to have that kind of information.

It also indicates, to a certain extent, the state of health of the industry, but other than seeking the co-operation of the Mining Association and the co operation of individual companies to provide us with that information as they see fit, I am not sure that we can or should do much more than we do in terms of getting the information. But your questioning certainly has caused me to ask my department to at least get an historic record of what the Mining Association numbers are by going through their annual reports.

I think it has, as I say, given the lack of perfection of the information, it still is useful to review it as an indicator. That will be done, and we will share that information with you when it is done. Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister use the information available through StatsCan as well, so that we can provide a comparison as to the numbers provided by the Mining Association and those reported by StatsCan? There may be a dichotomy there or there may be a difference because of the reporting structure.

I would be very interested to understand the numbers because they do have a significant impact on how we view mining and mining health in Manitoba. Mr. Newman: I will share that information with you when I get it, and I am hereby requesting that information be provided to me for the same period. We seek that information from the Mining Association of Manitoba. * (1610 ) Ms. Mihychuk: One last area of interest that I am going to explore in this year's Estimates is the Aboriginal Mining Accord. I look to that with some optimism.

This is the first specific initiative that I have seen that deals with the aboriginal community. I hope that this will be a significant move, progress in terms of reaching out to First Nations. I would ask the minister to provide some detail as to what the Aboriginal Mining Accord will be doing. I see a line item of $40,000 put towards that project. Perhaps there can be an indication of the number of staff that are going to be working in this sector, what initiatives we are going to undertake and what results we hope to accomplish. Mr.

Newman: Let me deal with the general, departmentally described approach, background, present status and suggested strategy, and then I will get into a li ttle more detail. The need for a strategy dealing with the relationship between mining companies operating in Canada and the aboriginal people has been evident. As Canada and the aboriginal community resolve the issues of land claims and move towards self-government for the aboriginal people, the need for an economic base for the aboriginal communities becomes paramount. There is little doubt that mining is the most likely industry to provide such a base.

In the past, the aboriginal community has received little benefit from mining, other than some employment opportunities, and mining was not permitted on reserve lands.

2282 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 With the advent of self-government, however, this will change. Mining will be possible on land owned by the aboriginal people, should they wish to allow it. Aboriginal groups will be able to invest directly in exploration, and mining will also be able to benefit from a variety of spin-off business opportunities. At the present time, there is a need to work on developing a better relationship between the aboriginal community and the mining industry.

If a common understanding of each party's needs can be achieved, there is every reason to belie ve that a relati onship can be establ ished that is of benefit to all. There is also a need to have an enhanced understanding of the values and traditions and cultural sensitivities of both, each for the other. The suggested strategy is: it is proposed that Manitoba's aboriginal mining strategy be initiated by means of a ministerial letter to the appropriate aboriginal groups and the Mining Association of Manitoba.

The letter would outline briefly the back ground and the government's desire to facil itate a dialogue between the two parties resulting in a form of accord or quoted best practice. This accord would outline the type of activities that a mining company would be expected to undertake when contempla ting the establis hment of a mine near an aboriginal community, and also when engaging in explorationist activities. The le tter that I did sign pursuant to that strategy went to the AMC, MKO, NACC, and the MMF, the Mining Association of Manitoba, and the Prospectors and Developers Association.

The letter has not gone yet. I have approved the letter, but it has not gone yet. It will constitute an invitation to an initial workshop at the end of this month, at the end of the month of May, to begin the process of developing greater under standing of needs and aspirations, and to begin work on the development of the accord. Ms. Mihychuk: Is it possible to get a copy of the letter? As Mines critic, I would be very interested in this project and would appreciate if I could get a copy of that. Mr.

Newman: You will definitely be given a copy of the letter, concurrently with its going out to the organizations that I have named. Ms. Mihychuk: Where is the workshop going to take place? Mr. New man: Winnipeg. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why the workshop will be in Winnipeg when most First Nations involved in mining, in the mining sector are in the North? Mr. Newman: The desire is to attract, at the initial stages at least, the lea ders of the organizations in question, and all their offices-AMC, MMF, NACC-are in Winnipeg, and so are the two mining organizations. Ms.

Mihychuk: This workshop is going to be here in Winnipeg, I understand, and leaders have been invited. Do we have an estimate of the number of individuals we are inviting to this workshop? Mr. Newman: In addition to resource staff and a facil itator, 14 people will be invited. Two of them representing each of those organizations, with the exception of the Prospectors and Developers Association; because there are two associations, there will be four representing those two associations-for a total of 14 .

So two from AMC, two from MKO, two from NACC, two from MMF, two from the Mining Associa tion of Manitoba, and four from the two Prospectors and Developers Association groups. Ms. Mihychuk: Is it anticipated that there are going to be more workshops? I look for a broader strategy. You have $40,000 all ocated. You are only having one meeting with maybe, what, 30 people. I would seriously hope this is not what we are calling the Aboriginal Mining Accord, that there has to be greater vision than that. I look for cla rification from the minister. Mr. Newman: We are talking about the initial meeting.

Growing out of that will be a series of workshops at locations and in circumstances, and involving those people that the initial meeting will determine as an appropriate inclusive process that will be effective. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate who the facil itator will be?

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2283 Mr. Newman: A candidate has been approached and has not yet committed to terms. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister intending to be there at this workshop? Mr. Newman: In this kind of event, in no way do I ever want to interfere with the process or impose myself on the process, but I always make myself available, when I do not have prioritized competing obl igations, to contribute to a process li ke this when asked by the people that are paid to successfull y facil itate these kinds of processes.

But I am very sensitive to only participating as a contributor to the process, no other way. * (1 620) In the past, when we have had these kinds of workshops in Northern Affairs, I have opened the process indicating my expectations, and provide my encouragement. I make very clea r to them that they are empowered to come up with what they think best, make very clea r that those decisions are theirs. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair When I have been invited during processes like this to come back to sort of get a report as to how things are going, I have done that.

Maybe most importantly of all in these kinds of processes, I have come in at the end for a debriefing, and my experience in this and the things I have done throughout my career in facil itating things myself , I found sometimes the debriefing is the most valuable of all, because from that you can learn most. Knowing that and having that in feeling ways, you can then also use that as a very clea rly understood foundation for the next step in the process, and there is always a next step. Ms. Mihychuk: Have there been prelim inary discussions between First Nations and the minister in terms of generating this idea?

Was this a colla borative approach? Is this a government initiative? Where did this come from? I guess I am still not clea r as to the purpose. The min ister talked about greater awareness and cultural sensitivity, but I would think that this is-we are inviting the leadership of aboriginal organizations and the leadership of the mining sector, so I do not believe this would be a cult ural awa reness workshop.

This apparently will be, perhaps, a time to look at the co operation from all three sectors or to look to visioning as to how this could be done, which I think would be a positive step, but I am very interested in learning where the idea came from, and where this is going to lead to, I guess. Mr. Newman: The idea came from me.

The testing of whether the idea had any merit whatsoever came from countless discussions with aboriginal people and the mining industry, and the theme of the Mines and Minerals meeting, conference in Winnipeg in November of 19 97 was-one of the themes-one ofthe major themes running through the whole conference was aboriginal involvement in mining and aboriginal views and aboriginal perspectives. A paper was presented by MKO Grand Chief Francis Fle tt, a paper was presented by Chief Ron Evans of the Norway House band. We had cultural features throughout the event.

The wonderfully well-r eceived entertainment at the closin g banquet was all aboriginally driven. The gifts to speakers were talking sticks. The whole theme, that theme was designed to expose people who do mining in Manitoba to the culture, and even in the cultural component at the banquet there was an educational component. There was an elder who was explaining the process. There was an opening prayer. So we have been working at this in those kinds of ways. That was the largest audience, but we have ongoing discussions and meetings with people from Cross Lake who are very interested in mining.

When we were in St. John's, Newfoundland, we had two representatives from the Cross Lake area who participated in that Mines ministers' conference in St. John's. We involved them in a dinner meeting with the Mining Association, and we learn from them every time we interact. I have had discussions with both grand chiefs. The director of our Sustainable Developm ent Co ordination Unit has been meeting with Merrell-Ann Phare, who is the director of the First Nations environmental group loca ted at The Forks that reports to the Assembly of First Nations. She is an

2284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 19 98 appointment of national Chief Phil Fontaine, and they are working very hard on environmental issues, and we have had the two of them interact. Bryan Gray, the director of the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit, the acting director, will be one of the resources at our meetings, because they have been focusing on this issue, discussing it and how they might go about it. * (1 630) So a lot of thought has gone into this and a lot of discussion has gone into it.

This is not going to be, even at the initial meeting, I would hope-unless they want to come, and that is entirely up to them-will not be a meeting of CEOs and grand chiefs. They can come in whatever capacity they want, and they can be a representative, but we are talking about two representatives. The hope would be that the choice would be of-it might be nonpolitical people who are going to be the leaders or the infonned, involved people in the influence they might have over communities, with communities. The choice is theirs.

The choice will be theirs who they send to the initial meeting, but it may very well be that they would see fit to send elders who have the respect of the First Nations. It may be that the MKO will send two people that they think are appropriate representing the North and the AMC will send two people that will represent the southern interests in mining. But the emphasis here is on understanding and appreciation-each for the other, and out of that, mutual respect. Understanding and mutual respect and sensitivity would be the kinds of things that hopefully will grow out of the process. Ms.

Mihychuk: Has an agenda been set for this workshop, and if so, can that be shared? Mr. Newman: The agenda will have to be done in conjunction with the facil itator, and the deal has not yet been consummated to engage that facil itator, but I have-again, my experience in dealing with the aboriginal people in these kinds of processes is it is best to go in with a blank page and either have an agenda for discussion purposes-even that sometimes causes suspicion, so it is almost better if agendas are created by the process itself.

The goal is known, the letter does set out the purpose of all of this, but how you go about it has to be tailored for the participants and being very sensitive right at the beginning that no one should be dictating what the agenda is going to be. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, the aboriginal mining accord is found under the responsibility of the Mines Branch, and as we ju st discussed earlier, there are clea rly some sensitivities about where mining companies or exploration companies do their business and how they respect First Nations lands in tenns of resource areas, and so I think you are right, the minister is correct, there needs to be a great deal of sensitivity, and I am wondering about the Mines Branch being that facilit ator.

I have all the confidence in the world that they are famil iar with and culturally sensitive to the mining industry and to the Mining Association. I am wondering if they also have that sensitivity towards First Nations and the aboriginal community, if the management of the Mines Branch has had aboriginal cultural-awareness sessions and are familia r with First Nations issues and concerns so that they would be perceived to be neutral and lead this workshop or this initial stage. So I guess my question is why is it centred on the Mines Branch?

Perhaps there might have been perhaps at more senior level to direct this, and what specific cultural and other learning processes have the branch members experienced so that they would be more sensitive and prepared to go into this with some type of background that is going to be useful for this workshop? Mr. Newman: 1 think all of your comments here show a certain amount of understanding of the sensitivities which we are well aware of, I am certainly well aware of, and that is why it is useful to see the role of the Mines Branch as being a funding role.

This is where the resources are coming from to do it, but this is not going to be driven by, dictated by the Mines Branch or its personnel. The facil itator, who we will engage, will definitely be an aboriginal person. The candidate happens to be an aboriginal woman.

April 28, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2285 The department, and I want to give the assistant deputy minister of Energy and Mines a very considerable amount of credit because as acting deputy minister for a period of time of both Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, he has had a very intensive exposure which has been very helpful for his current position, extensive exposure to northern and native issues, as well as his long history in the Mines Branch.

It is no accident that the deputy minister who has been appointed, Oliver Boulette, is not only a well respected, well -known Manitoba aboriginal but, as the long-time assistant deputy minister in the Northern Affairs portfolio, has extensive, intensive, intimate involvement in aboriginal issues and also has been leading, intensively so, the healthy Sustainable Communities initiative in the Department ofNorthern Aff airs in these kinds of facil itated workshopping ways. So I think the top leadership in the mining area in our department is very well qualified to be involved.

I have been assured that they are going to be involved by actually participating in the process. As I indicated earlier, we have taken some steps. We have had our human resources leader participate in a Three Fire Society intensive learning experience. This is another one of those kinds of experiences, and whatever it will take through that process to have that kind of shared experience in this process, whatever emerges out of it may become less important than having shared a process, a learning experience together in this way. * (1 640) Ms.

Mihychuk: It is positive that the director of human resources had that experience, but I would like to suggest that the senior management of the department, and I am not talking necessarily of the assistant deputy minister or the deputy minister, but those that are hands-on need to be aware of it, of cult ural awareness, the role of mining, the role of the department in the North.

I know of many circumstances where the department itself went out into communities fairly close to First Nations, never went to address themselves to the council or introduce themselves to the First Nations community, did no shopping in the community, did not provide the information to the community. So there needs to be sensitivity amongst the geologists, amongst the branch management. I would say that the geologists, because they go up north, are probably more aware of what is going on than those that have desk jobs in Winnipeg.

I urge again that those individuals such as the marketing director, the Mines Branch director, Financial branch director roll up their pants and take, yes, roll up their shirt sleeves and go up there and visit the North and visit First Nations communities so that they can understand exactly what the situation is.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	adfaa52223ce5c7f30bc0e57657ef0dbc92b66ae

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