Manitoba Hansard — 25 May 1978 (Sitting 49B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-49b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542 - 5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXVI No. 498 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 8:00 p.m. Thursday , May 25, 1978 Printed b y P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for th e Province of Manitoba

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 25, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER The Honourable Member for St. George has 13 minutes. MR. URUSKI Thank you , Mr. Speaker . As I was speaking before the Private Members ' Hour I had indicated that the Minister of Finance in his remarks was really critical of members on this side about the number of committee meetings or the lack of committee meetings that were being called by the previous administration , and the like . The Ministe r of Finance also made comments to the effect that it was members on this side who had spoken in committee on Tuesday indicating that likely the committee would be over in ten or fifteen minutes .

I have received a transcript from the Public Utilities Committee , a copy that was obtained by the Honourable Member for Elmwood, and I would like to quote from tha t Hansa rd, the transcr ipt of that committee , and I would like to quote and it is a statement made by, not members on this side, but by the Minister of Public Works . Mr. Enns says, " Well , Mr. Chairman, it would be my hope that there would still be an opportunity of approving MPIC 's report in the remaining ten minutes. '' .,/ I am sure , Mr.

Speaker , that the Minister of Finance would not want to leave an impression in this Chamber that it was members on this side that had made a statement tha t the committee would be adjourned in short order , when in fact it was his own colleague . -(Interjections)- Mr. Speaker, there are some comments coming from across the way saying , "He didn 't say it was transcribed ." He said he wasn't sure. But there are remarks that are transcribed and they are on the record about the ten minutes, and they were not made by members on this side. They were made by who?

The Minister responsible for the Man itoba Public Insurance Corpora tion , the Minister who reports in this Chamber . That is who made the comments, and it just appears , Mr. Speaker, that the Ministe r of Finance and members on that committee, and especially the Chairman of the committee, I would hope that he would explain away his - and I hope he was not drawn into it to concur with the move that I can only attribute to the Minister of Highways.

Because I can 't see the Chairman of the committee falling prey to a scheme which I can only att ribute to the Minister of Highways, to try and, I would have to say, possibly embarrass members on this side , but it didn 't turn out to be an embarrassment , Mr. Speaker. It became an embarrassment of the tactics that are prevalent coming from that side of the House , Mr. Speaker . That is what was intended and I hope that the Chairman of that committee is not and has not been party to that type of an action. Mr.

Speaker, as well as the Minister of Finance having to try and defend these things because he is a member of that committee, ! believe it is showing a very poor, a very negative or lack of judgment on his part, not allowing the Minister of Highways to get away with a move like that. I am saying that I don't leave that type of a move on anyone else but him . But if the Minister of Finance , being a member of the committee and was there, is party to it, that even shows less of the integrity and the way that the members of the government side handled this situation. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance in this House talked about members on this side falling asleep, or sleeping in. Well , let's look at his logic of sleeping in, what that really means. If you are three minutes late to the committee, you haven 't slept in, but if you are nine minutes late or eight minutes late, you have slept in. That is the logic of the Minister of Finance in this committee. That is how he justifies the actions , the inconsiderate actions of his colleagues and himself, who is a member of this committee . Mr.

Speaker, the Conservative Party has been critical for eight years of this government bringing in Autopac into this province and now not one of their backbench has had a question, not a question after being critical of this Corporation, of the public insurance in this province having been run so inefficiently, by the words of all the members of the opposition , to not now have even one question to the committee . Was the Member for Roblin there questioning insurance now that he is in office?

Surely he still must have questions of the chairman and the general manager of that corporation or the Minister, to come to that committee. You backbenchers, are you puppets, that you would not even have one question of the committee and question them? What are you sitting there for? 2649

Thursday, May 25, 1978 are you not able to speak for yourself and have questions of the chairman and the general manager about the efficiency in the operation , or is it only when you are in opposition that you do not have any questions of the chairman and general manager of the corporation? Do you not have any guts to get up and speak for yourself, or are you going to rubber-stamp everything that your Minister can come into the committee and speak about? You are just a bunch of puppets . -(lnterjections)- MR. SPEAKER Order please . I hope the honourable members will give the opportunity to the Member for St .

George to complete his remarks . The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Minister of Highways today indicated that he had notified the chairman . Mr. Speaker , I have to say that I am sure that there was a slip -up somewhere but 1 am just not sure whether that slip-up was not intentional , because of the government's actions in the last number of months . They have consistently tried and consistently are going to undermine the workings of that corporation .

First of all, it was the Task Force Report indicating and the Task Force saying that wherever the government competes , they should be moving out of that area . So they are in the general insurance business. so what happens? Management Committee and the Minister of Agriculture sit here, pass an edict , freeze the staff . And frankly , they would have frozen the staff until hell freezes over had it not been raised that they were allowing the general insurance portfolio to wither and die by MPIC. The Minister of Agriculture is sitting there frown ing at me, wondering what I am talking about.

The fact of the matter is he sits on the Management Committee . Even his leader said that they made a general policy of a hiring freeze within the province , and that meant the corporation. But they did lift the staff freeze on Autopac when the general manager came forward , and Mr, Chairman , the general insurance freeze would not have been lifted had it not been raised here . Mr.

Chairman , it would not have been lifted, as sure as I stand here , it would have gone on and they would have let the corporation not be able to meet its commitment to its policy holders who wanted to do business with that corporation and today's actions by the government in that committee, and only the Minister of Highways can stand up there - he has already embarrassed the House Leader to no end , the House Leader who stands in this House as a parliamentarian of great accord , Mr.

Speaker. -(Interjection)- Well , he at least wants to make the members of this Chamber believe that and I have to say that I have to give him some credibility on his stature in parliamentary rules . But today he goofed and today he really had to apologize in a way that he didn't want to . He had to back the committee but yet he had to apologize to the rest of the House saying , "Look, although we made the mistake , you 're still wrong; you should have been here .

You still slept in and there was no one on the committee ." But the Minister of Highways should have let him in on the fact that the Leader of the Opposition did attend that committee . So, Mr. Speaker , the government bench today has brought about a move that I believe and I hope that they will reconsider and allow the opposition members and allow the members on this side to question the Chairman and General Manager of the corporation .

If they are not going to allow this move to be made , well knowing that they have railroaded that report to be in, I believe that democracy is going to and has suffered in the Province of Manitoba . MR. SPEAKER On the proposed motion of the Honourable Government House Leader, seconded by the Honourable Member for .. . The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. ENNS From the noise that I am hearing, I feel it 's about $100 ,000 night for Autopac , with hailstones being reported as being that big all around this building . You will excuse me if I express that concern . MR. SPEAKER The Honourable Member for Roblin .

MR. McKENZIE Mr. Speaker , on this waste of a whole day of us using up hard-nosed government tax dollars for a bunch of mumble-jumble that is absolutely meaningless , I am going to be very brief and stand up and defend our Whip on this debate . Mr . Speaker , I surely cry for members opposite though because they don 't have a Whip ; they don 't have a leader; they don 't know who is running what. They are running wild . They are running rampant. Nobody knows what 's doing what. It's unbelievable.

I couldn 't believe , the other day , until I saw the former Attorney-General choke up in the committee and he said, " We are still dealing with Rex versus the Crown ." And he raised it four or five times and the Attorney-General raised the matter that Rex is not on the documents of the Attorney-General's Department. 2650

Thursday, May 25, 1978 mr. Speaker, shall I continue because I don 't think the members oppos ite want to hear what I have to say? But I will carry on and I'm sure the microphone will pick it up. I am prepared tonight to offer members opposite our Whip , the Honourable Member for Gladstone , to go over and sit with you and he will be the Whip for your and our party . Our Whip had our members there this morning in the committee . They were there at 10 o'clock and if you want our Whip to come and whip your party , let us know , because I don 't know who your Whip . .. You didn 't have a Whip yesterday .

You didn 't have one the day before . The same with the leader . When have you had a leader over there last? I haven 't seen a leader there for the last two weeks. This party , this loya l opposition of her Majesty , running wild , running rampant without a leader , without a Whip and they stand up and tell us that we have got to change the rules ; we have got to change the clocks ; we have got to change everything for them . My friends, forget it. We are the government , don 't you remember? We are the government.

We have the authority to carry out the wishes of the government and if you 're going to be on committee , be on time, not 20 after , not a quarter after ... -(Interjection )- The Member for St. George , he comes screaming in here yelling . He wasn 't here last Tuesday . Who is he kidding? A MEMBER He's not on the comm ittee. MR. McKENZIE He wasn 't here last Tuesday ; he doesn 't know what was said. He comes in here , so he left home 20 minutes early and he blames us because he delayed , he was talking with Mr. Dutton . I know he was his former . . .

I guess he had him under his wing because he was the Chairman of the committee in those days , but we changed that around . It's a tragedy . I feel sorry for you over there , I really do . You're without a leader, you 're without a Whip , we'll offer you our Whip , we'll whip your party and ours will have you on time . Do you want us to give you all alarm clocks? Do you want to give us a new set of rules? Do you want to give us the const itution? Do you want us to show you how to run a government? If you want it, we've got it.

We've got a Whip , we've got a leader, we've got a party , we've got a government and we're going to run this province , and don 't come crying the blues to us because we're following the dedication of the people of this prov ince, carrying out our mandate and everything is going to be on time. -(lnterjection) - l' m surprised . I know the Member for Selkirk is running for the leadersh ip of the party , he's striving , he's grabbing straws all over . I don 't know where he'd get even three supporters amongst his own gang though, because nobody trusts him over the re. We sure don 't trust him over here .

I just wonder how much support he's got in that caucus. I know the Member for Inkster would like to go. I hear now the Member for St. George today , he's tooling up, he's ready to go . Now , who's the next .. . Oh, the Member for St. Johns . But he's not here today. No, he's carried the ball for the last two weeks . He was leading the party . But where 's your leader tonight? Where 's your leader and the thrust of this great tirade that you're bringing in? MR. SPEAKER Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member tha t it is very unparliamentary to say someth ing about a membe r who is not in the Chamber.

The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE Mr. Speaker , I withdraw . Just for the record, to show how touchy they are and how tende r they are , when the former Attorney-General in the committee the other night started mixing up Rex with Regina , that made me say tha t they are not prepared to deal with the matt ers that are before the House ; they 're not prepared to deal with the legislat ion which they have befo re them ; they're without a leader ; they 're without a Whip; they 're running ram pant; they 're running wild ; we only see of the eviden ce.

All day today , for what, for noth ing , because they were late . -(Interjection)- They were late , we weren 't late. Our Whip had our members there at 10 o'clock.$ A MEMBER No he didn 't. MR. McKENZIE One minute after 10. - (Interject ion) - So they want us to bleed all over the place and pray and beg to help them get there at 20 after or a quart er after , or 15, what's the difference . Mr. Speaker , don 't let members opposit e confuse the committee or the people of thi s province . The press you know , I like the one they did on the news that I heard at 5:30.

They said the whole thing was over in two minutes . Of cours e, we know the pre ss tod ay. I doubt very much in all my years here I've ever heard the press tal k about Roblin , I don 't think they ever had , and never 2651

Thursday, May 25, 1978 will because they don't know where it is and they don't care about Roblin . I've been here since 1966; I've yet to see the press write anything favourable about me or Roblin and I know they're not going to do it because they don't, for some reason -(Interjection)- they like to go with members opposite. I liked the one the other day on a Speaker's Ruling. Here they showed the Speaker without a tie and the member who was asked to put a tie on, he was shown in the picture with a tie on; and that's the kind of press we're getting in this country.

That's the kind of press that's causing all the problems that we have around the world today. They're not printing the truth, not printing the facts, the members opposite over there are bleeating and the television cameras are flowing but the country is getting more difficult, more difficult to manage . I'll just tell you again - we'll buy you alarm clocks, you can use our Whip, we'll even give you our leader, and help you to get through this session. Thank you , Mr. Speaker .

QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Roblin in the Chair for the Department of Health and Social Development and the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chair for the Department of Executive Council. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MR. CHAIRMAN We are on Page 6 of the Estimate Book, Item 5 or Resolution 7, Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation-pass - the Minister responsible for Manitoba Housing and Renewal. MR. JOHNSTON Thank you , Mr . Chairman.

Before we begin the review of the Housing and Renewal Corporation for the current year, I would like to make a few introductory remarks. When the former Minister responsible for MHRC presented his Estimates in this House one year ago, he boasted that in the recent years Manitoba had developed the highest number of public housing units per capita of any province . During the past eight years the former administration turned the business of providing Manitobans with decent housing into nothing more than a numbers game .

The chief concern was how many units they could squeeze out of the taxpayer's dollar in every fiscal year . The result is the situation the present government has been confronted with in the last six months:/ Housing constructed for sale, which remains unsold because it was build without regard for market needs; lists of public housing projects promised to communities where there appears to be little , if any, legit imate demand; kyrocketing subsidy costs in existing public housing which will place an increasing strain on the public purse in the years to come , even if no additional public housing were built.

In order to come up with numbers demanded by the previous government , MHRC was forced to extend its budget and its staff without the benefit of any long-term planning , framework, or any rational objectives . Anyone who has ever run a business or an organization knows when you have this kind of rapid expansion you eventually have to pay the price. You can do it voluntarily and rationally at a time of your own choosing ' or you can wait until you are forced into it when the whole thing crashes down around your ears . The price , Mr.

Chairman , is taking some time out to assess, to evaluate , and above all to do some long-term planning . The time has come to end the hazardous housing initiatives of the previous years and to develop workable objectives for the future. In spite of all the public housing units constructed by previous government many Manitobans still have severe housing problems , whether they are in low or moderate income groups . Publicly owned housing cannot solve all these problems . There are alternatives, none of which received more than token consideration from the former administration.

In the coming year MHRC 's emphasis will be on examining alternatives , on re-evaluating criteria used in the past in developing housing programs. By the end of this year we will be in a strong position to respond to the housing needs of Manitobans in an effective way . I would like to point out , Mr . Chairman , that the Manitoba Government is not alone in reviewing its involvement in the housing field at th is time . The Federal Government is currently evaluating all aspects of the National Housing Act and major changes in all Federal programs will result.

In many cases those changes may result in greater financial burden on the province . In the area of low income housing, the fund ing under

Section 43, used to finance Manitoba 's 2652

Thursday, May 25, 1978 12,000 units of public housing may no longer be available . Instead, Federal officials are developing a program which will increase the effectiveness of low-income housing programs, facilitate the entry of private capital into the low-income housing , and reduce the visibility of low-income housing projects through blending of incomes. Changes proposed for AHOP programs would effectively reduce the household income required to carry monthly payments and extend AHOP benefits to existing housing stock.

MHRC is currently working out details for several new provincial housing assistance programs. One of these is a major program to meet the needs of a group of people virtually ignored to date. Mobile homes are a housing alternative that is being chosen by more and more people, yet they face a severe shortage of mobile home financing . We will be introducing a program to make this a viable alternative . Another program that will be looked at will be a program to help low-income families acquire their own homes which would involve the financing of second mortgages in the way of grants over a long-term period.

The third program will provide rental assistance to persons currently on public housing waiting lists , to enable them to live in private sector houses . A fourth will be to provide assistance to co-operatives in the form of operating grants , so that the benefits of co-operative housing can be extended to families in the $9,000, $14,000 income range. These programs have approval in princ iple of MHRC 's Board of Directors and the staff are now developing and wo rking on guidelines. I will be announcing these details in the House as soon as they are available.

My staff have now had several meetings with the Federal housing officials , and out of these discussions, we will develop a housing program to meet the real need of Man itobans and to meet them in a meaningful way. In closing , Mr . Chairman , I can assure this House that any housing program introduced by this government will be based on criteria that meets the standards set out in the Act under which MHRC was set up. It will be based on rationa l principles that are responsive to the great variety of Manitoba's housing needs . Mr.

Chairman , I would also like , at this time , to say that the co-ope ration that I have had from the staff of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation has been one that has been excellent. They have worked long hours and very hard over the past eight months that I have been their Minister , and I would like to say that they are very co-operative and wonderful people to work with.

I would also like to say, as I said last year in these Estimates of the Housing Corporation when I was the critic for the Opposition, " Stop, look around , see where you 're going , the planning of the corporation is not there ." I repeatedly said that on the Minister of Industry and Commerce 's Salary when I wound up, and I can assure you that that is something that we are doing at the present time, looking to where we're going. I also said last year that the staff of MHRC were a good staff , and I found out , even more so, that they are .

I say it's the policy of the government which has put the MHRC into some of the problems that I say are there , and not the staff . Thank you , Mr. Chairman . ,1 MR. CHAIRMAN To the members of the committee, I have two persons that have indicated they would like to speak - the Member for Transcona firstly and then the Member for Burrows. The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I am glad the Minister acknowledged that the technical staff of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporat ion were competen t but that co11tradicts his statements about

definitions of need which were developed by the technica l staff . The technica l staff have done analyses in various parts of Manitoba and they were the ones who were defining what the needs were in terms of public housing and senior citizens ' housing . They always can 't be perfect in divining that need exactly but they have done a very good job over the last eight year s. I am sure that if given a free opportunit y to def ine the needs of Mani tobans with respect to housing, they will be able to cont inue to def ine that need accurately , if they are indeed given the opportunity .

Prior to the New Democratic Party government being elected, we had had a Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation that basicall y had no staff . It had no program . It was, in fact, a shell or a dummy corporation. I would hate to have it turned into a dummy corporation now. Prior to 1969, very few housing units were built under the auspices of the Provincial Government. The Provincial Government , at that time, relied on the private sector to meet the needs of low income families and of senior cit izens.

This turned out to be a completely wrong policy and it was hurting us financially and hurting us in physical terms . Money that CHMC was allocating to the Province 2653

Thursday, May 25, 1978 of Manitoba for the construction of needed senior citizens' housing and public housing was going to other provinces, especially Conservative Ontario and utilizing money that we gave up. Utilizing money that we, in Manitoba, gave up, the Province of Ontario was able to build up, over a period of years, a fairly good social housing stock. In 1969 we didn't have a social housing stock and , as a result, the government of the day had to embark on a program which over an eight- -year period built over 12,000 public housing units and over 7,000 senior citizens' units.

That was done through public initiative. The question is, since those units are indeed filled right now, weren 't they needed? Those units were built in relation to an analysis of need done by the technical staff of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and built as efficiently as possible, through a tender ing process utilizing builders in the province , and through that process we built over 12,000 units . They are filled; people are living in them. Where would they be living if, in tact , we didn 't have those units?

And somebody from across the way - I think the Member for Pembina - says, " All of them." There may be 10 or 20 units that aren't filled . Now , if in tact the Member tor Pembina thinks that that is a sufficient reason for stopping the program, then I think his knowledge of the margins that one applies with respect to vacancy rates is pretty shallow . What we have right now, because of that type of attitude and I think it is an attitude on the part of the new government to find any excuse whatsoever to get out of any type of social housing program .

So what they have done last fall is announced that they are cutting back a program that was planned for , a $58 million program, and they cut it back to a $22 million program . They cut back a number of senior citizen complexes. The Minister at that time said, well, this was because the New Democratic Government really hadn 't pushed hard enough with CMHC in terms of getting the commitments in place. He didn't check to find out that this was in tact rather normal procedure in terms of working with CMHC over the calendar year to try to get the commitments in place.

But he promised that the social housing program was not cancelled . We had said that it was cancelled at that time. No, he said, this was not cancelled, this was just being cut back. We are now into the 1978 calendar year and I have heard not one announcement of a new senior citizens project. I have heard not one announcement of a new project tor low income families, and this in spite the fact that we still have continuing inflation .

Yet, if you look at every senior citizens complex in Winnipeg, where I was able to do some personal checking, you will find that there is a waiting list; there is a waiting list tor every complex that exists and people like the Member for Pembina would like to go out and tell those people -(Interjection)- I have asked the Manitoba Regional Housing Authority and I trust the Manitoba Regional Housing Authority much more than I would trust the Member tor Wolseley. The Member tor Wolseley has rarely ever been accurate .

I would trust the integrity of the Manitoba Housing Authority which sent me a written document indicating that there are waiting lists tor every one of the senior citizen complexes . So we have a housing crisis in Manitoba. We have a housing crisis and we have been waiting tor a long time for a somewhat mute Minister to come forward with what would constitute the program of his government. He has had seven months . So here we have the Minister coming forward after seven months and saying that he is going to solve the housing crisis of Manitoba with mobile homes . Incredible .

We are now going to call him the Minister responsible for Mobile Homes, or the Mobile Home Minister , or the Mobile Minister . What he doesn 't realize is that mobile homes aren't the answer to our housing crisis . I wonder how many people are going to be that anxious to go into mobile homes . I wonder how anxious people are to go into a home which depreciates in value over time as opposed to appreciating in value over time . I wonder if you are going to get the same space. I wonder if you are going to get the same longevity out of that unit as you would if you were in a conventional housing unit.

But the Minister has said , " We'll solve that problem; we will put people into mobile homes ." Conceivably we could put them into boxcars as well , but I don 't think that is the answer . I don 't think that is the major answer and that is the first program put forward by the Minister. MR. EVANS Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , I am trying to listen to the Member for Transcona and we are continually being interrupted by very unparliamentary remarks from the Member for Pembina. If he wishes to make those , he should get out of this room. Let's carry on the business of government. MR.

CHAIRMAN Just before we carry on, ladies and gentlemen , we have a full attendance at this committee and today has been a difficult day for all members of the House, so perhaps we can ask all members if they would try to co-operate. The Member for Transcona has been recognized as the speaker . Would you please at least listen to him , if you don 't want to listen to him, you 2654

Thursday, May 25, 1978 are welcome to leave the room. The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK Thank you, Mr. Chairman . The other alternative put forward by the Minister and it is not a specific alternative and it is not definite, is to put people who might be eligible for public assistance into private apartments . He is saying that he doesn 't want the public to be the largest landlord in Manitoba , so what he would prefer to do is use public money to provide rent subsidies to whom , to the individuals or to the private apartment block owners? And this is a critical question, Mr.

Chairman, because the rents that are required to amortize public housing are those that are required to amortize the construction costs and those construction costs are amortized over a twenty , thirty or forty-year period. But if in fact you start paying rents in the private sector , you are paying rents which are determined by what the market will bear . You are not basing the rents on the construction costs because if you look at the rent that one has to pay in some of the older blocks , say some of the older blocks on Kennedy , you will find that the construction costs of those blocks are quite low.

If you look a .. the amortization costs, they are quite low. But you are not paying the amortization costs in the rent , you are paying the present market value which is quite inflated . So that means over a period of time , if we utilize public money to subsidize people in private units , we will not be able to put as many people into decent accommodation as we could if we in fact built the units ourselves and used them over a period of time . Surely there is nothing wrong with the public owning housing units; they are an asset ; they appreciate over a period of time.

Later on I will be trying to get estimates from the staff as to what the present value of the housing units that are presently held by Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation are. What is the present ./ market value? And the present market value will be much greater than the construction costs and yet the rents that are being paid are on the construction cost amortization requirements. So this is a dangerous new path that the Minister seems to be embarking on.

I think that this is a path that has been imposed upon the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and I am looking forward to the Minister providing detailed explanations as to why he is forcing the Corporation to follow that path. He also turns somewhat idyllic and talks about utilizing co-operatives and I find that rather ironic in that consistently his party has been against seed money going into co-o peratives.

I can recall last year when the start-up grant to the Boni Co-op was being discussed in the Legislature , it was his party that attacked that seed money, that attacked that grant to the Boni Co-op to get that particular co-operative off the ground. Well, the same kind of seed money is going to be required for housing co-operatives. Another requirement of housing co-operatives is land. Where will in fact the hous ing co-operatives get the land? I think co-operatives are a viable option but they are going to require a lot more than the Minister is prepared to put in.

They are going to require start-up money ; they will require land ; and they will require a cont inuing firm commitment on the part of the Minister and on the part of the government. And yet we have a Task Force which is saying that the Department of Co-operatives should be abolished . While we are discussing the possibil ity of co-operative housing today in some vague form , we have the Task Force recommending that the Department of Co-operatives should be abolished. So we are left , Mr.

Chairman , with no statement , no real operable statement from the Minister as to how the variety of housing supply will be provided by both public and private and , I guess , the third sector, the non-profit sector , how this will be provided to ensure that the housing needs of all Manitobans are met. A very simple case, we have got the City of Winnipeg NonProfit Housing Corporation . The commitment had been made last year, a commitment of $1 million in start-up money to a non -profit housing corporation to get housing in place in the City of Winnipeg , critically needed.

What 's been the Minister's answer to date with respect to that commitment? " No." A cont inued " no." We've had no statement on land servicing, which I think is a very important factor in the price of houses. There have been studies which have indicated that probably the most important factor in affordab le housing is to get the land cost down . Because if, in fact, you have very expensive lots as the only available option, that means that when you are buying a lot for $20 ,000 , it 's very difficult putt ing on a $20 ,000 house so that you can qualify for the Federal Assisted Home Ownership Program .

You end up going over the limit, and that's why it's very crit ical to start getting that land price down , somewhere in the order of $10,000 or $12 ,000 .00. Then it will be possible to build on that lot , a house which would quali fy for Federal assistance under AHOP , which I think is a useful program in that it does provide ownership of the home . We have no particular program coming forward from the Minister in that respect , so after all 2655

Thursday, May 25, 1978 this long wait , the Minister 's introductory statement leaves us very little to go on, and has, as its major plank , the furt her development of mobile homes. I hope , as we discuss the specifics of this appropriation , that we can , in fact , get much more definitive statements from the Minister , and much more specific recommendations to problems . Just as a final point , I'm wondering if the Ministe r would endeav our to provide the operating statements for 1977 and 1978, to the membe rs of the committee .

I think if you look at the last annual report , you 'll find that on Page 16 there is a Statement of Operations for the year ended March 31 , 1977. That has it listed for 1976 and 1977. The fiscal year we've just finished is March 31 , 1978, and the fiscal year for which these Estimates are coming forward is for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 1 979 . Now , if the Minister is coming forward with the Estimates , he should be able to indicate what the components of the $19 ,986,000 are . So I'm wondering if the Minister will undertake to provide those breakdowns as requested . MR.

CHAIRMAN The Member for Burrows . Can you get up to a microphone , please . Would somebody be kind enough to let him in? MR. HANUSCHAK I merely have a question to ask of the Chairman . When the committee last sat , what item did the committee approve ? MR. CHAIRMAN The committee approved the other evening , Item l.(

b) only. MR. HANUSCHAK Item l.(b). That's Ministers without Portfolio compensation . MR. CHAIRMAN For all three Ministers . The total sum of $46,800 was approved. MR. HANUSCHAK Well , Mr . Chairman, really I think that the committee would want some guidance because I was of the distinct impression that at that time , the committee was dealing only with the salary of one Minister without Portfolio , and not with the salar ies of all three . MR. CHAIRMAN To the member ask ing the question , the Member for Burrows , I don 't think that I have the right to spl it that figure up.

If we were going to pass the Minister 's Salary , it happens to appear in the Estimates in a lump sum fo rm, but I can tell the Member for Burrows and others that I was of the opinion that the Minister without Portfolio , the House Leader , if we wanted to discuss his actions and so on , we could get to him under the Premier 's Salar y. and we can discuss the current Minister 's abilities and so on under Items 5.(

a) and (b). ' MR. HANUSCHAK Under items . . MR. CHAIRMAN ... 5.(

a) and (

b) because he does have a department. MR. HANUSCHAK Items 5.(

a) and (b). My problem is, Mr . Chairman , in the event that a member of a committee should wish to move that the Minister 's Salar y be reduced to one dollar , then we will have a problem . MR. CHAIRMAN Then I'm afraid as far as I'm concerned , to the Member for Burrows . it 's too late , but we did pass an item and it was in a lump sum form. The only thing I said at the outset of the Estimates on the Minister without Portfol io responsible for the Task Force is that we would deal with the matters separately , the three Ministers without Portfoli o separ atel y.

I didn 't say that we would split the salaries up , because I don 't have the power to divide $46 ,800 up. MR. HANUSCHAK I'm not fault ing you, Mr.

Chairman , for this, but this was a matter that I had warned the House Leader and membe rs of the House on one or two previous occasions , and members of this comm ittee during the consideration of the Salar y of the previous Min ister without Portfolio , and I do regret that we find ourselves in this predicament , because it now makes this a shadow boxing exercise if we are not in a position to demonstrate our confidence or lack of confidence in th is Minister by wanting to move a motion to reduce his salary to one dollar . 1 have a question to the Min ister without Portfolio whose salar y had been appro ved without our knowledge when the comm ittee last met .

I did ask him -(lnterject ion)- MR. CHAIRMAN The Membe r for Burrows has the flo or, please . MR. HANUSCHAK I did ask h im a couple of months ago w hethe r he would correct the first page of the report of MHRC for the fiscal year end ing March 31, 1977. I pointed out some inaccuraci es 2656

Thursday, May 25, 1978 contained therein and I believe that at that time he had indicated to me that he would take the matter under advisement , and to this date I have yet to receive any publication showing a correction of that page. I am referring in particular to the Chairman and the list of board members as shown therein . The Minister at that time indicated that this is a report submitted to him on February 24, 1978. I quite appreciate that. But the letter from the Chairman of the Board indicates that it is for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 1977.

I think that the records should be correct , because with all due respect to the present chairman and the present members of tl1e board , the fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, that as of March 31 , 1977, Mr. Fil Fileccia was not the Chairman of MHRC, nor were many of the members shown herein members of the board of MHRC .$ Really, Mr. Chairman, I would urge the Minister that for the sake of the record, for the sake of accuracy of the record , that he should make an appropriate correction to the MHRC annual report. MR. CHAIRMAN The Minister responsible. MR.

JOHNSTON To answer that question, if he wants to change the reports while the previous government was in power completely all the way through, he can. Mr. Pawley was the Chairman for the better part of 1972-73 , and Mr. Curry signed this report, dated April 23, 1973. Mr. Curry was made the Chairman by Order-in-Council 160-73, February 7, 1973. The 1974 report, Order-inCouncil 160-73, February 7, 1973, the same situation . It has happened every year that there has been a change of chairman for the last eight years . The report in front of you that you were .I issued is a report, the first page is signed by Mr.

Fileccia, the Chairman , and it has Chairman 's Report , that is Page 1. The rest of the report is an accurate description of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and it has been done for years the same way . - -- ~~- MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK Except for the fact , Mr. Chairman, I think that the record should show that as of March 31, 1977, Mr. Fil Fillecia was not the Chairman of MHRC , as this report would lead a reader to believe; that Mr.

Thomas Denton, Business Consultant, was not a member of the board; that George Hansen, Winnipeg Businessman , was not a member of the board; that W. G. Harrison , Thompson, Businessman , was not a member of the board; that H. E. Hyndman , Mayor of Rapid City and Local Businessman, was not a member of the board ; nor was Gerhard Jenzen, Winnipeg, Businessman; nor was Robert E. Lane , Insurance Executive , members of the board , but that there were other members of the board not shown in this report . MR. JOHNSTON Well , Mr.

Chairman , the members of the board on this Page 1 when this report was issued are the members of the board that he read off. I can 't tell you whether there were many changes in the boards in the previous reports I have just told you , but I am sure there probably were and they have all been issued the same way over the past years . In fact , I think the honourable member is splitting stupid straws and I wish he would get on with the business. MR. HANUSCHAK I see, okay . . Like having your salary before you came in the committee room? MR. JOHNSTON Mr.

Chairman, the member is obviously a little bit narked because last year it was recommended that his salary be reduced and he is trying to find somebody to pick on and he has been wandering around committees trying to do it for the last little while and he obviously can't do it here . Maybe he had better go and look for another committee if that is all he is interested in. MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order . MR. USKIW Mr. Chairman, we have the anomaly here of not being able to discuss a ministerial salary . When it was discussed, Mr.

Chairman, my understanding is that this Minister was not present and was not answerable to the committee. And then we have the arrogance of this Minister trying to browbeat legitimate questions from the opposition. MR. JOHNSTON Mr.Chairman , on the point of order, the salary question, everybody was here. It was last Thursday night. There was a vote taken on 1.(b), which my salary happens to be part of. The question on that salary on that particular line should have been to the First Minister, saying, " What is it for? " and he would have explained it. If anybody wants to really discuss my salary again, 2657

Thursday, May 25, 1978 they are perfectly free to although I must admit it can't be voted against the same as the Honourable Member for Morris who is in that figure . He is quite free to do so under the First Minister 's Salary because I come under the Executive Council. MR. CHAIRMAN The member on the same point? The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW I think it should be noted that this is the first time - well , at least in my recollection - that we have had such undemocratic procedures in Committee of Supply. MR.

CHAIRMAN To the members of the committee , I have a long list of persons who have indicated they wish to speak . I will indicate who they are: The Member for Fort Rouge; then Pembina; then The Pas; and then Rupertsland . The Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY Mr . Chairman , I won 't get into the matter of the Minister 's Salary because I think it is first important to see how he may be earning it and as a result , I think I would like to ask him questions about his opening statement which I was a little surpr ised at frankly .

We have been waiting for some time for the revelation to come about the housing program and I frankly was looking with some expectation because obviously the need for some change was there . I think that I accept in part the Minister's consideration that the previous housing program had really become stultified in many ways and it needed to be freshened up substantially . But what concerns me and I won't even be critical at this point of the Minister's claim for long-range planning and his attempt to, as he says, get his house in order.

But what I am concerned about is that we are losing basically a full building season where nothing at all will be done on the part of the Government of Manitoba, nor utilizing any of the supports or assistance coming from the Federal Government. -(Thunderclap) - Obviously the position has been endorsed by those on high as well. -(Interjection)- That's right, when you mention them on high, I tell you, they speak . We speak with a very mighty voice these days. Well , it just shows who you are tangling with , that's all. The point I would make , Mr.

Chairman , to the Minister , is that while he is going through this period of re-examination, we are losing really a full year in the development , even in the interim development , of a supply of housing , particularly in low and moderate areas and a whole number of very pregnant questions are being left unanswered which I think will substantially disrupt the operation of the private market system in Manitoba as well as really shrink the flow of housing for those who are not able to compete fully in the market.

I was certainly hoping that the Minister would have provided at least some basic sense of where the government intends to go in these areas. Let me just mention a couple of them because I think that they are questions that have to be answered really at this committee hearing before we leave , otherwise there is going to be one unholy mess in the housing market in the province . I think the most obvious one is the substantial distortion in the rental market.

We have the problem where the government has announced a decontrol program for rental housing dependent upon , or contingent upon an adequa te supply of rental housing to create some kind of market force . And yet we have not received any indication whatsoever of how this government intends to ensure that there will be a proper supply of housing in those sectors of the rental market where the demand is greatest , which is in really the moderate income area , rent levels, say, ranging from $120.00 to the $200 .000 level. As I can determine , nothing is being supplied .

Even the rental units coming on the market this spring and summer through the assisted rental program are excessively above that level of income and yet the Minister has not indicated what he intends to do . So we have a serious paradox where we are relieving or de controlling the rent control system , based upon some notion that the market will then take over and act as the controller of prices. And yet the supply is inadequate in those areas where it has to happen and I think that the Minister is one who always says let's not beat around the bush.

I think he should come clean on the basis of having that wherever there is an excessive supply , it is in the upper-income range, that there is not in any way an adequate supply of moderate cost rental housing. So we have an enormous distortion in that particular area and as a result , you are going to have very serious consequences for those people who are in the rental market, simply because there is no supply program presently being administe red. I would suggest that in a couple of key areas , it is particularly damaging.

One is, and I assume from reading the Conservative platform or housing program, that they announced in the last election , that they were going to make some major initiatives in the field of rehabilitation and the recovery and recycling of older buildings,

part icularly apartment rental units, and even from 2658

Thursday, May 25, 1978 the Minister's announcement, nothing was said about the way any kind of assistance will be offered to apartment owners, to third sector housing, or to the municipality to in any way rescue or recover the loss of a substantial number of rental units that are being taken out of the market every single year . Furthermore, in that respect, Mr. Chairman , the Minister didn 't even indicate how he intends to deal with the new federal proposals that have been announced , I guess the announcements have been out for some three or four weeks.

The outline of those proposals are available and if anything is going to be done with them, there is going to have to be some major adjustments in provincial housing programs to compensate.

There is obviously major changes in what is now called , I guess , the Social Housing Program, which will really require the government to provide substantial support in the non-profit co-op sector and in this case I would think that they would be more than anxious to avail themselves of those non-profit co-op organizations already in existence, but obviously supply them with the necessities of land and support that are required. I didn 't hear, I believe, the Minister saying anything in that respect. So what it would come down to, I think, Mr.

Chairman, is that the Minister is really going to have to say something fairly specific and constructive about what and how this government intends to aid and support the rental market in this province, because I would suggest to them that as the ARP Program is wound down and as the potential for changes in that area occurs, there will be no rental housing at all produced in the province , and I would simply remind him that something ./ like 95 percent of all rental units built last year were built through some form of federal support.

So if that is being pulled away there is not going to be any rental units at all being built. I think there was something like less than 200 units out of a combined construction of 2,400 that were not built without some form of federal assistance. Now that is being changed and it would seem to me that we had better kind of catch up to that pretty quickly, and in this season otherwise there is going to be a major shortfall.

I don't know if the Minister was the housing critic at that time, but I would remind him of the severe consequences the province suffered in 1973-74 when the Provincial Government withdrew from the Public Housing Program, just stopped building public housing, the City of Winnipeg in effect. We are still kind of catching up from that particular omission at that point in time . Now we are going through another full braking with nothing being offered and I think we can 't afford to lose that kind of impetus . So that would be one of my major concerns, Mr. Chairman .

I think the second one, and this is something that I raised with the Minister of Urban Affairs and I would like again some very specfic indications from the Minister of Housing because he was , I think , passed the buck by his colleague , the Minister for Urban Affairs, and that is on the new Community Assistance Program, which is folding in the previous Neighbourhood Improvement Programs and what not. Many of these programs are ongoing and many of them require some form of direction.

What concerns me is that it is now up to the provinces to set the priorities, and I think we should have a very clear signal at this point in time as to whether the province will allocate , I think it's $10 .5 million in the 1978 budget that will be coming as a block grant from the Federal Government , whether it will require as condition of receipt a commitment to provide for major improvement programs in low income or core areas of the cities as opposed to allowing the money to be used for sort of, you know, golf courses in St. James , I suppose, if I may use that example .

The danger of that particular Block Grant Program is that it does allow municipalities to make choices that may not have any real direct commitment to inner city difficulties , and I think it would be very helpful if the Minister was at this evening 's committee hearing and make the commitment that one of the prime criteria that the province will employ in the allocation of that Block Plan Program will be in maintenance and improvement of Inner City Renewal Rehabilitation Prog rams. I think that that again is something, a signal, that has to come through very clearly before too much longer . Thirdly , Mr .

Chairman , and while there is a lot of other questions I think we can all ask, agai n I would refer him to the neat buck passing that his colleague maintained in terms of the disposition of land. There is a major question mark in the minds of many people , particularly in the private market, as to what the government intends to do with the large land bank that was assembled over the past three or four years inside the Perimeter Route of Winnipeg . How does the government intend to deal with it? Is it going to sell it off at market rates? Is it going to allocate it for the non-profit co-op sector?

Is it going to retain it for its own use? What about the very large blocks of land even that are presently contained in the south St. Boniface area? What about the large Leaf Rapids holding in Selkirk , Manitoba? These are very very important unanswered questions 2659

Thursday, May 25, 1978 they really do, as he well knows, compose s.omething like 25 percent of the land holdings inside the Perimeter Route of Winnipeg and in . many other municipalities besides, and there has been a lot of people waiting to get some indication of what the government intends to do in the disposition of those and the guidelines that it intends to use. Now , Mr . Chairman, those are the three questions I have . I would hope to have an opportunity to ask others.

But I would simply indicate that I am prepared to wait for his grand design maybe at a later date, but I think in the very immediate critical sense there are essential questions that have to be answered right now. MR. CHAIRMAN Did the Member for Fort Rouge finish? I am sorry I couldn 't hear. MR. AXWORTHY Mr. Chairman, I have just begun but I will leave it at that point. MR. CHAIRMAN The Minister responsible for Housing. MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a comment regarding the statement from the Member for Transcona regarding the research staff of MHRC .

I did compliment them highly and I did say that it was the policy of the government that was the thing that put the strain on that staff. Mr. Chairman, I can only say to you, to the Committee here, that we arrived in office on October 24 and on Friday, October 28, 1977, at 2:30 in the afternoon I had given to me a submission to Management Committee of Cabinet dated September 22 1977, which outlined a program that was to be submitted to the Management Committee for approval of the MHRC Program. It called for a total of $58 million.

Upon checking with tbe staff I found that the allotment to the Province of Manitoba from CMHC for 1977-78 was $32 million. Mr. Chairman, the report that was submitted was not signed but it had the Honourable L.S. Evans' name on it, Minister responsible for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation . A little later on, after discussing this document with the staff, I received from Mr. Hans Schneider this letter . It is from Mr . Gordon , but it was from Mr. Schneider to Mr. Gordon.

It says, " I am returning the draft submissions of the Management Committee dated September 22, 1977, setting out the MHRC 1977 Public Housing Program . The submission was not signed by the Honourable Mr. L.S. Evans, formerly Minister responsible for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, and has not been considered by Management Committee of Cabinet. No doubt you will wish to discuss this proposed project with the Honourable Mr . J.F. Johnston before the program is considered by Management Committee. " Now the date on that was November 1.

I received the same document, which I had a copy of a little later on, about a week later. Mr. Chairman , at that point in time we had submitted to CMHC for approval. . . on October 11, 1977, submitted for approval was $7,047 ,000.00. At CMHC awaiting funding approval there was this ... in category B which were $1.5 million, tendered but not submitted, was a total of $11 million , and I might say that some of those tenders in that particular group where there was five of them that closed on the 25th of October, category D to be submitted prior to the 1977 year-end was a total of $23,972,000.00 .

The CMHC cutoff, as the members who have any knowledge of housing are concerned, is November 30th of every year . We have to have everything submitted by that time that we want to have approved or that we want to work on in the following year . Because it hadn 't been to Management Committee, which was , I am informed , the procedure at that time, it was presented to the board. There were many of the ones that had been tendered, and ones that hadn 't been tendered were put out for tender and there were submissions made to CMHC for many projects .

In fact , I believe they exceeded the $32 million , but we do have the opportunity of taking a look at them again when they come back from CMHC. We worked very hard to get those projects in; we worked very hard and the new board was appointed about three weeks later after the government coming to office. The new board examined all of the projects that were involved in this submission and the ones that were tendered and examined them very closely for the need that would be required in the different areas . I made the statement at the time that we were very concerned about the units that were being proposed.

We, at MHRC , keep records as many of you know and we started to examine in the Town of Roblin . And I might say, it's been the practice of MHRC for many years that when they have people eligible , they built to half of the eligibility . In the Town of Roblin there were 48 people eligib le. which should have called for 24 units , there was 42. In the Town of Birtle , and I might say. Mr . Chairman , in the Town of Birtle the project 2660

Thursday, May 25, 1978 did not go ahead . It called for 18 units. The eligibility was 15. The board had to take a look at that, and I quote from a letter from the Mayor of Birtle dated March 28, 1978. "Our housing authority did receive a number of applications in response to an ad in the local paper. No canvass or interviews were conducted." And the interview sheet and the statistics sheet for Birtle for the housing that was planned there was never completed. In Russell, we had a program of 28 people elig ible, 24 units of elderly persons' housing was built. Or was it 40? I think it's in the project.

Forty , when there was 28 eligible . Portage Ia Prairie was originally, Mr. Chairman, when I take a look at the projected figures of the housing program, and this is dated October 10, 1976, the submission of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation for the program in 1977, when I take a look at that program , and then the Minister replied to it, with the whole list, adding some to it, I might add, and we take a check in there and we find that Portage Ia Prairie was originally for 50 and would justify approximately 50 but it was 94. Flin Flon has 50 eligible elderly persons, 40 units being built.

Rossburn has 15 applications and 12 units being built, and in this particular one we felt that if we went to the Rural and Northern program it would be much better for Rossburn . Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons for the examination of the program that was presented to us when we came into office, was exactly that. There seemed to have been a disregard, a complete disregard for the statistics, or the previous procedures that were used by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, so it was studied by the board.

The board examined all of the projects that were on tap, and the ones that came back from CMHC, had made decisions as to whether ./ they would go ahead. I might say that there were 4 projects that were under construction we could do nothing about which had never been to the Management Committee of Cabinet. Those were the reasons why we undertook to re-evaluate the whole program at that time and were able to approve and come up with $22 million of the program . Mr.

Chairman, regarding the mobile homes, I think the memb er is exa ggerating when he says that my statement did, at any time , insinuate that mobile home s were the thing that was going to solve the housing problems in the province of Manitoba . I would say that my statement is wrong, because we don 't believe that. I believe my statement said it was one of the thi ngs that we were looking at that has been neglected . There are many many areas of housing programs, or types of housing programs available in this province, but have never been really considered.

There are programs used in other provinces extensively, that have never been considered by the province of Manitoba. Their attitude was to build and own and build as many as they could. Mr. Chairman, when the member says that there are no empty units, I would just like to quote from a note here from Mr. Fallis to myself, on May 15th. It's a memo from Mr. Charle s to Bill Nickaraz re Moray and Strauss and Pembina and Silverstone. The original memo is from Mr. Charles to Mr. Nickaraz dated May 11, 1978.

"Bill, I am passing on the most recent update I have with regard to the filling of units under management of Oldfield , Kirby and Gardener.

(1) Moray and Strauss, to date 36 bachelor suites and all 8 one-bedroom suites in senior citizen's building have been filled. This leaves 61 vacant bachelor suites, a total of 22 bachelor applications have been forwarded to them, however, as of this date we have no additional applications on hand to forward . T his problem may carry on for some time . All the family units at Moray and Strauss have been filled . " Pemb ina and Silverstone - Oldfield, Kirby and Gardener have not yet received an official completion date on this program . It has 30 two-bedroom and 30 thre a-b edroom suites.

We have forwarded them 34 two -bedroom applications and 14 three-bedroom applications. No additional three-bedroom applications are available at this time . However, the staff is hopeful that by the time the development is open there will be sufficient applications on hand , and I certainly hope so. "In regard to the bachelor situation at Moray and Strauss, you may wish to advise as to further action to advise Ron on the status of the situation." Mr. Chairman, on August 25th, a letter to one of our research people from Mr. Fallis , " In a recent rep ort from Winnipeg region and so on, vacancies in St.

Vital and Fort Garry-Richmond area, the comment is made by Winnipeg regional that it appears that we are pn)Viding more units in public housing in these areas than the people in these areas would appear to require. People in the core area are reluctant to relocate to the suburbs . I would therefore suggest , in future, if we were looking at these areas, we discuss the situation with the Winnipeg regional very carefully before going ahead." And it seems that there was no discussion with the housing authorities before these projects were proceeded with or planned .

"Sixty-one units are still vacant in the Fort Garry area and in St. Vital 26 units are still vacant." These figures are as of July 31st. The original letter to Mr. Fallis is signed by a Mr. Sanderson 2661

Thursday, May 25, 1978 from our area, and when he gives his report on vacancies, his comments , " subs idized units are in fill-up process. We are experiencing problems in St. Vital and Fort Garry public houses, as tenants will wait for downtown housing and refuse or delay acceptance into these apartments . It would appear we are providing more units of public housing in these areas than the people in these areas would appear to require . People in the core area are very reluctant to move ." Mr.

Chairman, we have had that problem since we have taken office, in that the decision of the previous government to build anywhere , at any time, for the sake of using up money without planning, has been prevalent. Those are the proofs . We do have problems . We have very serious problems, and as I said last year when I was in this off this committee, I said, "st op , analyze, look where you 're going and find out what housing programs are the best for the province of Manitoba ." Mr.

Chairman, when he speaks about rent subsidies to individuals and he speaks of renting or subsidizing people in apartments owned by private individuals, he seems to think that it's a very great difference. What is the difference if we subsidize in a an apartment owned by somebody else rather than one we own ourselves. As a matter of fact, we would be saving money in the long run because we wouldn't own it, we wouldn 't have the costs involved as far as the maintenance, etc ., and the management of those units , and one thing, Mr.

Chairman , we would accomplish , is that people would be able to live where they want to live, not where we tell them to live. It is costing us at the present time $230 per month per unit , on an average , of subsidy . It costs us $350 a unit to operate a unit of public housing in the province of Manitoba, average. We receive an income of approximately $120 per unit, average , which is $230 subsidy. -(Interjection)- I beg your pardon? Monthly, $230 about. Mr. Chairman, the subsidy we are spending is $350 a month , and there are lots of apartments available at that price in this city . MR.

PARASIUK Could you give us the breakdown for those figures? Multiply them times the number of units we have, 13,000 times $350 gives you what? MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman, I can only turn to my staff , and I'll have the figures for you tomorrow , that the average costs . . . MR. PARASIUK Give us 13,000 times $350 times 12. MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman, we have provincial share only at 50 percent, total monthly per unit subsidy of elderly persons is $120 .00. I had quoted you $230.00 on the public housing . Can you gave me the figure on the public housing , that is the average .

Family public housing -(lnterjection) No, Mr. Chairman , I said .. . MR. CHAIRMAN Just a minute, members of the committee . The Minister is attempting to answer . MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman, I said that $230 .00 was family public housing . The $120 .00 figure I quoted is elderly persons housing ; that is our average subsidy per month. On the family public housing, it is $208 .00. I was out by $22.00 . MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY I just wanted the Minister to clarify.

Is that the provincial share, the $208.00, or is that the combined share of the federal and the provincial , which is a 50-50 split? MR. JOHNSTON That's the combined. MR. AXWORTHY It is combined, so that the provincial share is $104.00, then? Would that be right? MR. JOHNSTON The total cost, I said , of subsidy is .. . MR. AXWORTHY That's not what you said , Mr. Chairman. You said , " your cost. " I think we should clarify the terms of that. MR. JOHNSTON Well, I'm sorry if I mixed you up. I thought I said the total subsidy is $350 .00 a month .

We have an average income of about $120 .00 and the difference is split between the federal and provincial governments , to make that clear . MR. AXWORTHY Fine. 2662

Thursday, May 25, 1978 MR. JOHNSTON Our subsidies at the present time, when this particular building program is over, for the ones that we had mentioned that were going forward in 1977-78, will be in the neighborhood of $16 .5 million and I think I have that figure accurately in the book here somewhere. Mr. Chairmnan, my staff will find that for you, and I will carry on. So the statement, when he starts mentioning that we're are paying the money to private people instead of owning it ourselves , you know , doesn 't really seem to make that much difference . Now, if he talks about the assets, Mr.

Chairman, it is all very well to talk about the replacement value. It is quite true , to replace the housing stock we have at the present time , which is in the neighborhood of $200 million , it would cost probably close to double that. But that's very fine to talk about replacement costs. When you talk about assets, an asset is what you can get for it and 1 would like to inform the honourbable member that I would like to know who would purchase the units at the replacement cost today with the size the units are, and try to rent them without being subsidized. Nobody.

The stock that we have at the present time is of no use to anybody unless it is subsidized or else we would have to lower the price considerably in order to make it practical for him to buy them. So it is all very well to talk about replacement value . The replacement value really has got no bearing on what the actual market value of the units are or the value to somebody else . Mr. Chairman, when I spoke in my opening remarks , I spoke that the Housing and Renewal Corporation was building houses that are not saleable.

At the present time , it is projected that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation will lose $708,594 .00 on the Bell Avenue Subdivision in The Pas.

The vacant lots that were developed in there for the same type of subdivision beside the one that we are not selling at the present time, and it is all laid out , the streets are in and everything, we have to make a change after working with the council of The Pas because they would have to go to a more single family type dwelling which is saleable in The pas, and in order to make those lots saleable so that people will want them , we will take an estimated loss - if we sell them at what we believe is the market in The Pas - we will take an estimated loss of $102,463.00. Mr .

Chairman, we also have Nassau Square where we buil t houses. In Nassau Square, there are still 15 houses left to be sold in that particular subdivision that was built for sale and the projected loss, and if you will look in your Estimates Book that you have here , there was $900,000 set up for Bell Avenue and Nassau , and Nassau is going to be $343 ,708.00. We are looking at a projected loss at the present time of close to $1 million on those units . If the honourable members will look at Exhibit B . .. MR. PARASIUK Is this the Estimates Book or is this the Annual Report? MR. JOHNSTON The Annual Report. MR.

PARASIUK You had mentioned the Estimates Book . MR. JOHNSTON The Annual Report , Page 16, provision for estimated loss on finalization of housing units for sale, $900,000.00. ~ MR. PARASIUK Do you have the breakdowns for 1978 and 1979 of that page? MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman, the breakdown of the loss at the present time is $343,708 on Nassau and as I quoted, we have a projected loss of $708,594 on Bell Avenue , and another $102 ,463 on the developed land that we have also in The Pas. MR. PARASIUK Can you give us a breakdown on those pages for 1978 and 1979 years . MR. JOHNSTON 1978 and 1979? MR.

PARASIUK That was the question I had asked . MR. JOHNSTON My staff informs me that we will be setting up - we have in 1977 - we will be setting up another $278 ,000 in the financial statement for 1977-78 or the statement that will be presented to you. Mr. Chairman, this book is a market survey and analysis of Bell Avenue Subdivision. We would be quite glad, if anybody wanted to read it, they are quite pleased to do so. It was asked for by the board; the research was done by qualified people, as far as the survey 2663

Thursday, May 25, 1978 was concerned , and we were presented with this . -(Interjection)- Mr. G. S. Carswell , ACCIC / IFRI, and Mr. H. L. Daudet , AACI, Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation . MR. AXWORTHY Mr . Chairman , is the Minister tabling that report ? MR. JOHNSTON Certainly , it's available. MR. AXWORTHY Will it be tabled then? I was just wondering , will the report be tabled? MR. JOHNSTON I'll table this one or get you another one , whichever you want. MR. CHAIRMAN The Minister has five minutes left in his answering period . MR. JOHNSTON Mr.

Chairman , those are some of the reasons why we have stopped and taken a look at the programs because we believe that our subsidies are getting to the point where we have to stop and take a look at it. I would also like to refer the gentlemen of the previous government to something that they did and I don 't criticize them for it. We don't have the figures in this book for 1969, 1970 and 1971; in 1972 the MHRC original allotment was $45 million, committed $26 million. In 1973, Mr. Chairman, the original allotment was $35 million , only $7 million was used .

It would seem to me that the previous government decided after four years to stop and take a look where they were going . The original allotment of 1974 was $13 million, committe d $14 .6. The original allotment in 1975 was $11 million, but committed was $27 million. I believe there was a request made for more . The original allotment in 1976 was $31 .2, committed was $48.7 . In 1977, $32 .3 was committed and there was $19.8 million plus , well, the CMHC commitment is $23.4 million which includes funding for projects which have been deferred or for cancellation. Mr.

Chairman, it doesn 't seem to be an unusual thing for a housing authority or for MHRC to tak e a look at where they are going when their subsidies are starting to get to the point where they are very very costly to the government and other things should be looked at. I would like , for the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge , to answer his questions but in the two minutes I have left at the present time , I would like to say to him that in my period of time sitting in this particular committee , one of his greatest criticisms of the previous government was that they only went on basically one program ,

Section 43. Well, we believe that there are many more sections of the CMHC Act that can be used for housing in the province of Manitoba . We think there are more programs that can be used which will allow people to live more where they want than in the public housing. We have seen a study done in Alberta where they sent out a questionnai re saying , " Do you need support or want support for housing? " The answers came back most of the time , yes. " Do you want to live in public housing? " No. All the provinces are having the same experience . We are presently making a similar type of survey ourselves .

We are examining all of the applications that are on file in our housing authorities . In the Winnipeg housing authority at the present time , out of 1,400 applications , 400 people were just not available or able to be found. We sent out 600 letters . We have got many answers and phone calls back saying they are interested . We have people phoning in saying , "I want to live in your senior citizens housing and public housing and I qualify , but only in this district. " Mr .

Chairman , I would say to the Member for Fort Rouge, his main concerns , and I know that they are concerns of his and they are w , is concerns of ours the core area of ipeg. It's a problem and it has to be solved . MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Pembina . MR. DON ORCHARD Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Some time back whilst the Member for Transcona was making his initial remarks , the Member for Brandon East made a point of order that I had made some unparliamentary remarks and I would like the Member fo r Brandon East to withdraw that point of order . MR.

CHAIRMAN Well , to the Member for Pembina , I think that the Member for Brandon East, this is my understanding of it, wanted to listen to the Member for Transcona , what he was saying and he asked me as Chairman if I could quieten down other members of the Committee . I personally didn 't hear him describe you or any comments that you were making . MR. ORCHARD Yes, Mr . Chairman , quite correct but the Member for Brandon East referred to the fact that I'd made some unparliamentary remar ks which I would like him to withdraw from the record .

If I had been making noise and distracting him , then fine and dandy , but unparliamentary remarks I did not make and I would like the Member for Brandon East to withdraw that remark 2664

I Thursday, May 25, 1978 from the record immediately. MR. CHAIRMAN Well , does the Member for Brandon East wish to inform me as to what remarks he was referring to. MR. EVANS I'm not withdrawing any and nor would I repeat them in the presence of a lady . MR. ORCHARD Mr. Chairman , the lady is sitting right beside me and I'm quite sure that there were no unparliamentary remarks made in the presence of the lady.

It's a figment of the Member for Brandon East's imagination and I would like him to do one of two things , withdraw the comment on parliamentary remarks or put them on the record so that they show as to the nature of those unparliamentary remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN Well, all I can say to the members of the Committee is that I did not hear them and as I said earlier in the evening, we have a large committee in attendance tonight and it's a very difficult day.

I was under the impression as Chairman of this committee that the Member for Brandon East was hoping that I would get other members of the committee to quie ten down so that he could hear the then recognized spokesman who was the Member for Transcona who was speaking at that particular time . I'm not aware of any unparliamentary remarks. So, my ruling is that I'm not aware of any, so therefore, as Chairman of the committee I'm not asking the Member for Brandon East to withdraw anything. MR. ORCHARD Mr.

Chairman, on a point of order then, if the Member for Brandon East indicated permanently for the record that I made unparliamentary remarks when he meant in fact that I was distracting his attention through comments to the Member for Selkirk, then I would appreciate him changing it to the accusation that I was making conversation which overrode the Member for Transcon a so that he could not hear the Member for Transcona's remarks. Unparliamentary comments or remarks I did not make and I would like the Member for Brandon East to withdraw that remark .

He cannot prove it and he has no basis for that accusation whatsoever and if he does not withdraw ... MR. CHAIRMAN As Chairman of the Committee I will ask the Member for Brandon East - can I have the attention of the Committee the Member for Brandon East if he was referring to the noise that was going on in the Committee at the time that he asked me to try and quieten down the Committee . Is that what you were referring to? And if that is so would you state it? MR.

EVANS I was referring to the noise , but included in that noise were certain swear words that I wouldn't use and I heard them and I'm not going to repeat them. MR. ORCHARD Mr . Chairman, the Member for Brandon East is living in an illusion . If he cares to repeat my unparliamentary remarks, repeat them or withdraw the comment unparliamentary remarks and replace it with noise, put it on the record if that is what I said. I am willing to stand by what I said, I know what I repeated to the Member for Selkirk and I don't have to stand for a comment of unparliamentary remarks from a man trying to make political hay.

MR. CHAIRMAN As Chairman of the Committee it 's my opinion, in ruling, that those remarks, if they were made, we're not recorded on the taping devices, therefore, they 're not on the record officially. They are not on the off icial record and therefore , as Chairman, I cannot ask the Member for Brandon East to withdraw anything because as I said I did not personally hear anything and I don't believe anything was recorded in the way of unparliamentary remarks. MR. ORCHARD Mr.

Chairman, the insinuation is left by the Member for Brandon East under cover of Hansard and parliamentary protection that I made unparliamentary remarks which goes down on the record and I would like him to withdraw that remark . MR. CHAIRMAN I'm afraid that I as Chairman do not feel that there are any unparliamentary remarks on the record . If the Member for Pembina wants to challenge me as the Chairman he may go ahead but I am, as Chairman of this Committee , ruling that there are as far as I'm concerned no unparliamentary remarks on the record.

The Member for Rock Lake on a point of privilege or a point of order pertaining to this matter . MR. EINARSON Mr. Chairman , on a point of order. No way do I want to challenge your ruling on this , Mr. Chairman, but I for one who have sat here on this Committee , I did distinctly hear 2665

Thursday, May 25, 1978 the Member for Brandon East make the comments that the Member for Pembina had made some unparliamentary comments and if the Member for Brandon East is not prepared to verbally state those comments, then I think that it is unfair . I'm not going to challenge your ruling , Mr. Chairman, if you did not hear them then I suppose it's ... But I did distinctly hear the Member for Brandon East make comments that the Member for Pembina is referring to . MR.

CHAIRMAN I can also point out to the members of the comm ittee that at the time the Member for Brandon East asked if we could get some quietness in the committee that I didn 't officially recognize him, I never recognized him . All I did was stop the proceed ings and ask the membership around the table if they would quieten down and listen to the Member for Transcona , so I virtually , as Chairman of this committee , ignored the Member for Brandon East and as I say, there is, as far as I'm concerned, nothing recorded on Hansard that is considered an unparliamentary remark . MR. EINARSON Mr.

Chairman , if you as Chairman of this committee can assure the Member for Pembina that the comments that the Member for Pembina is asking the Member for Brandon East to withdraw are not on the record , then I think there's no problem . MR. CHAIRMAN All right , as Chairman I'll undertake to have the Clerk hear the tape from Hansard at the earliest opportunity . If there are such words recorded , they will be erased. The Member fo r Pembina , you were waiting a long long time to be recognized as a spokesman was that your contribution? MR.

ORCHARD I want to assure that the Member for Brandon East 's comment of unparliamentary remarks does not go on the record because he cannot substantiate them because they were not there. MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS Mr. Chairman I heard the Member for Pembina swear and I'm not going to repeat those swear words and I heard them and I'm not going to repeat them and I therefore will not withdraw any remarks because those are definitely unparliamentar y. MR. CHAIRMAN All right , let's try and get back to the business of the Manitoba Public Housing . MR. ORCHARD Mr.

Chairman , the Meer for Brandon East has now put on the record that I uttered swear words which I did not utter and I would prefer that remark to be struck from the records as well. Put up or shut up. MR. CHAIRMAN All right , we'll get back to the business at hand. I have a list of speakers, persons that wish to question the Minister and on my list are the Members from The Pas, Rupertsland, Transcona and Lac du Bonnet. Is the Member for The Pas present? He is not present, so the Member for Rupertsland . -(Interjection) - Then the next one on the list is the Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK Thank you , Mr.

Chairman , I am wonderin g if the Min ister will , in fact, undertake , as I asked him to supply the Statement of Operations for the year ending March 31 , 1978 and can he also give us the Estimated Statement of Operations for the year ending March 31 , 1979 so that we can get some idea of what the subsidy might be for the year ending March 31 , 1978. - (lnterjection )- MR. CHAIRMAN What is your point of order . MR. EVANS Mr . Chairman , on a point of order . The Member for Pembina is threatening me, he said he was going to crucify me.

The Member for Pembina said , " Len you better be careful , you 're going to get crucified ." Now I want the member to apolog ize. Did the Minist er of Labour hear that threat , did you hear that threat Ma'am? - (Interjection) - Well , Mr. Chairman , I've been threatened by the Member for Pembina and he said he was going to crucif y me, now I want him to withdraw that remark . MR. CHAIRMAN Can we get some order t o the c omm ittee first . The Memb er for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order . MR. USKIW I suggest to you th at this co mm it tee is no longer pr oduct ive and tha t we should call at 10 o'clock .

I move that comm ittee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Lac du Bo n n~'>t has moved that committee rise. - (Interjection) 2666

Thursday, May 25, 1978 - Well, it's a non-debatable motion. All those in favor of committee rising. MR. PARASIUK I had the floor, on a point of order, I had the floor . MR. CHAIRMAN I recognized the Member for Lac du Bonnet, he had a point of order and then he suggested that maybe the committee should call it quits. I in turn said are you prepared to put a motion. I recognized him and then he put a motion that committee rise, now the motion is on the table , all those in favour of having committee rise please indicate . It's a non-debatable motion . The Member for Inkster. MR.

GREEN I'm not speaking to a debate, I'm speaking to a point , Mr . Chairman, of order. Unless the committee unanimously wishes to rise, then in order to take a vote you will have to take a vote in committee the same as was done earlier this evening and I just wonder whether . . . If people agree with the Member for Lac du Bonnet then there 's no problem. If they disagree then we have to go back in and vote because committee sits, the Committee of the Whole is not called here , part of it is here and part of it is in the other room. MR. CHAIRMAN Okay, we have motion before us.

Is the wish of the membership attending this committee that committee rise? The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW Mr. Chairman, we haven 't been making any progress with respect to the committee for the last half hour . It is now 10 o'clock, the usual time of adjournment and I think it's an appropriate motion. MR. CHAIRMAN Do you want to take it out? All right, let's carry on with the affairs of the comm ittee . The Member for Lac du Bonnet has indicated that he does not wish to take it into the House for a vote. The Member for Transcona was in the process of asking the Minister questions.

Did the Minister hear the questions over all the confusion? The Minister of Housing . MR. JOHNSTON The member asked for the statement , the 1977178 report or statement and it will be available hopefully much earlier than it has been available. I would say that that statement will be available in mid-summer . I can give him any answers he wants regarding operating or salaries . . . MR. CHAIRMAN To the members of the committee , the Minister is trying to give an answer to a question posed by the Member for Transcona.

If there are persons present who aren 't interested in the answer, would they kindly be polite and leave the damn room before I get out of here. The Minister of Housing, please carry on. MR. JOHNSTON Well, I'm prepared to give the specific item the member is interested in and I'm quite prepared, I think I have it front of me here . MR. PARASIUK Well, Mr. Chairman , if you look on Page 6 of the Estimates book on Item 5 on the left-hand column , it says a total of $17 ,300 ,800 .00.

Now , in order to arrive at that figure, surely it's composed of other numbers and I would think that that would be the same number as exists on Page 16 when you came up with a total of $14 ,830 ,015.00. I'm just trying to understand what that $17 million consists of and I'm trying to ascertain what the $19 ,987,200 which is requested for this coming fiscal year consists of. How much of that is going to be revenue? Is that a grant from the Province of Manitoba? Is there interest involved? Then on the expenditure side: How much of the expenditure is going to be interest?

How much is going to be the Corporation share of housing projects , operating subsidies? How much of that will be used for grants, for assisted home ownership program? How much will be used as grants for The Elderly and Infirm Persons Housing Act? How much will be used as grants for the Critical Home Repair Program? You know , all of that that is indicated on Page 16 for the year ending December 31 , 1977 surely must exist if in this Estimates Book you publish a figure of $17 million . That says what you spent last year, or what was estimated . MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , this report was tabled in the House . . .

MR. PARASIUK It's a year old. MR. JOHNSTON It's a year old. We would hope that we can have the 1977-78 figures , a report 2667

Thursday, May 25, 1978 such as this , available to you before a year goes by. Now , if you are speaking of salaries for 1977-78 , which were $2,522 ,900 , the salaries in 1978-79 are $1,892.900 .00. That's a specific. What other ones would he like? MR. PARASIUK Could I get more specific, Mr. Chairman? I would like to get the subsidies, the housing project operating subsidies, for 1978, that is for the year ending March 31, 1978, and what is projected as the subsidy for March 31 , 1979. Secondly, I would like to get a breakdown of thut $19,987,000 amount.

It is a one-line amount for almost $20 million and surely it is not unreasonable to ask for a breakdown of that. If you look at other departmental Estimates, when you get into any other department , you will have an item like that usually broken down into so much for administration , so much for operating expenditures , so much conceivably for capital expenditures.

I am wondering if we can get that type of detailed breakdown , not necessarily tonight , but for tomorrow so that when we are reviewing this, or I don 't know if we will even get back at this tomorrow , but certainly for Monday so that we can have some type of breakdown rather than talking in general terms about a $20 million figure . MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman, I just refer to the statement, and I think I can go back over the years , I'm looking at 1978 at the present time , when it was under Industry and Commerce, and it is exactly the same type of a breakdown that we have in the Estimates this year. MR.

PARASIUK Right , but I think that if you ask for a breakdown, other Ministers in other departments have been providing breakdowns, the number of staff man years , and a breakdown of whether in fact this $20 million is going to be used entirely for staff, or whether some of it will be used for the CHRP program, some of it is going to be used for some other program . Surely if you are asking for $20 million , it is not unreasonable to ask for a breakdown of that Estimate. MR. JOHNSTON Well , Mr .

Chairman , I don 't think the member is being unreasonable, but he must realize that the 1977-78 breakdown that he is asking for , to begin with , is the amount that was voted last year. It will not be the actual until this report comes out. MR. PARASIUK I agree. MR. JOHNSTON The 1978-79 is a request for funds to be voted to us for this coming year. Now, if the net operating voted in 1977-78 was $3,354 , 100; requested this year is $2,454,500.00 . AHOP voted last year was 125 . . . MR. PARASIUK Mr .

Chairman , on this, you know, if we get a whole string of numbers like that, it is going to be somewhat difficult to get them all down tonight , and secondly we have to wait for the transcript and we might not get it for Monday morning . I was wondering if the Minister would just provide a written breakdown to the members of the committee, of that? MR. JOHNSTON I think that is possible. MR. CHAIRMAN The Minister has indicated that he can undertake to do that. MR.

PARASIUK Secondly , in this respect , I would like to ask if in this $19 ,987,000 , there is any Capital, because this is a combined budget, it is combined Current and Capital. MR. JOHNSTON No Capital. MR. JOHNSTON There is no Capital in this budget then . That means there is no Capital carry-over from previous years , is that correct? MR. JOHNSTON No, I would like to check with my staff on that regarding the painting in the CHRP. No, the re is no carry-over and the Capital that we use in the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation is

Schedule A and we have no carr y-overs of Capital. We have authority left , but we have no Capital. MR. PARASIUK How much Capital Authority are you . . ? MR. JOHNSTON Approximately $38 million . MR. PARASIUK So the re is $38 mil lion which aren 't shown in these Estimates ? MR. JOHNSTON No. that is not correct . 2668

./ Thursday, May 25, 1978 MR. PARASIUK Well, where would they be shown? MR. JOHNSTON That is Capital,

Schedule A, Capital Authority that has not been .. . It's not the same as the Capital Authority that the members were trying to dig at in the previous committees. It is

Schedule A Authority . It is not Capital . MR. PARASIUK So that will come foraward in the Capital Supply Bill, is that correct? MR. JOHNSTON Yes. MR. PARASIUK So you are saying that there is $38 million in the Capital Supply Bill? Is that for this coming year or was it voted from past years and is being carried over to this year? MR. JOHNSTON It is a carry-over. We have authority for $38 million in Capital in

Schedule A. MR. PARASIUK Thirty-eight million dollars and you have authority under

Schedule A for $38 million? MR. JOHNSTON That is correct. MR. PARASIUK Do you intend to spend or to utilize or commit , either to pay out on a cash basis , or to commit any of that $38 million in this fiscal year? MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , on that particular question , I think I am going to try to answer at the same time one that we had from the Member for Fort Rouge.

Until Friday, May 19, we had no indication whatsoever from the Federal Government what our allotments would be in the Province of Manitoba and at that point it was discussion with officials from Ottawa and we have nothing official from Ottawa as to what our allotments as far as Capital is concerned , or moneys are concerned, as far as Manitoba is concerned . I have wired the Minister , the Honourable Andre Ouellet and there have been several wires since his statements about what is happening in the House or about what his program is. It says, "You have been requested by my colleagues , Mr. Tardiff and Mr.

Bennett, to meet with provincial Ministers in Toronto on June 14 to discuss and clarify concerns in respect to the new housing program and community services program. May I endorse their request and indicate to you our concern with the lack of progress in finalizing the details of the new programs so that implementation can occur . Public and munic ipal expectations have been generated which cannot be answered or met.

Although your officials have been most co-operative when discussing matters , several important matters remain unresolved and I am certain that the proposed ministerial meeting will assist in the resolving of outstanding matters and will lead to an early execution of the required operation and agreements, thus enabling the early implementation of the new programs. '' Mr . Chairman, we have been work ing very hard with the Federal Government trying to get this solved. I believe the Federal Government, as I mentioned in my opening statement, is taking a very serious look at their housing program.

They have the concerns of the provinces and at the present time we are not in the position to say how much Cap ital Authority we would be using this year. MR. PARASIUK Mr. Chairman , there is this very great confusion that I think exists within the public generally and within the housing industry as to what type of programs will be operable . We are right in a construction season right now and people aren 't sure whether in fact there will be subsidies to apartments built by private builders so that they can proceed this year and get the housing in place .

Or, with some of these larger projects , it might entail their starting the planning process now in order to get some of these projects in place not necessarily this year but next year. I have talked to some builders and they are very confused as to what is happening . Right now , the old prog rams have really in a sense been phased out . We have committed certain amounts , as the Minister indicated , up to $22 million , but then I wonder whether in fact we are proceeding with any others . We have a senior citizens complex , a 360-unit senior citizens complex, at Garry and York which was supposedly halted .

It wasn 't put through in time supposedly for CMHC or CMHC raised some questions. The Minister wasn 't really clear whether in fact that project was cancelled or just delayed . In that case , are we going to be proceeding with the 360-unit senior cit izens complex at Garry and 2669

Thursday, May 25, 1978 York? That is a very hard , specific question and if in fact we are proceeding with it, surely it will entail some draw on that Capital? I think that towards the end of May, it's not again an unreasonable question to ask if that project is going to be proceeded with in this particular fiscal year that we are talk ing about. MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , I would be very doubtful if Garry and York would be proceeding this year . We have on file from Mrs .

Enid Thompson , who is with the continuing care department of Health and Social Development , very extens ive comments that the Garry and York project would not be a wise one to go ahead with in that you would have probably 1,000 senior citizens in one block . We have had discussions with other social people within the area and we would be very concerned that a project of that size in one block would be, to use the word that I don't like , ghettoizing senior citizens . Projects of that size are good but I don 't know that we want to go and double the amount of senior citizens in that area .

We do have other properties available to us, if we decide to use them , in the downtown area for senior citizens , but it would be very doubtful if Garry and York went ahead this year . But I might say it is still being looked at. There are plans , there are drawings , there are architectural fees that have been paid , the whole bit. But we don't intend to move ahead , making a m istake . The program entails not only MHRC ; the program entails the Department of Health ; the program will have involved in it nursing care .

You could conceivably find yourself with a complex that would be very hard to operate and rum , your nursing staff , etc. Let me read from a letter on September 15, 1977: "To Mr. Honourable Len Evans, Elderly Persons Housing , 185 Smith Street. It has come to my attention that MHRC is planning an expansion of elderly persons housing complex at 185 Smith Street in Winnipeg that could result in a total resident occupancy of 800 elderly people .

My staff has noted that such a proposal raises a number of important questions and its implementation could produce , over a time , many serious health , psychological and social consequences . For your information , I arn attaching a memorandum from Ms. Block of the Office of Continuing Care, which outlines just a few of the observations . Because the consequences of such a large project could have a bearing on the services of the Department of Health and Social Development , I would very much appreciate the opportunity to ensure our input in the early stages .

If you agree , I would be pleased to ask a member of my staff to consult with your officials on this project. Signed : Larry Desjardins ." Mr. Chairman , there are numerous problems to putting that many senior citizens in one area , and we are not prepared to move ahead unless we are sure . MR. PARASIUK So what the Minister is then saying is that they are not proceeding this year with the Garry and York projec t. MR. JOHNSTON That 's correct . MR. PARASIUK Do you have a waiting list of senior citizens in the inner part of the city , who are awaiting senior citizens' housing . MR. JOHNSTON Mr.

Chairman , I just read the honourable member a letter saying that we have senior citizens ' housing available in many parts of the city . Strauss Drive is only one. MR. PARASIUK It's not available , if I'm correct . You said that at this stage, you have a number of people who are applying , but when the suites are completed, they expect to be filled; or they would hope that the situation would change . I think I'm going off memory , but I think that's what you said when you spoke to us.

Secondly , if you're going to read from letters , will you be tabling those letters so that we can see the entire letter rathe r than just gettting a snippet out of context ? MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , I read the whole letter into the record . Mr . Chairman , the senior citizens ' housing problem at the present time , there is no question that the senior citizens prefer , it seems , to live in the downtown area.

But there are senior citizens who say to us, " We're making applicat ion to live in senior citizenshousing , I would like to live on Countr y Club Road ." We have something like, I th ink eleven applications at the present time for Country Club Road, where they stat e " that we want no other ." They won't move into Strauss Drive where we have space available . These are problems that have to be over come, and I might say problems that were not looked at before. MR. PARASIUK Is the Minister then te lling us. because l"m gett ing somewhat confused . . . MR. JOHNSTON I'm not. 2670

Thursday, May 25, 1978 MR. PARASIUK Well, you see, I have a number of people who are coming forward from various parts of the city, phoning me up, asking me if they can get into senior citizens' housing. I contact the Winnipeg regional housing authority, and they say there are these huge waiting lists, they can't get into senior citizens ' housing right now, because there is insufficient senior citizens' housing. Now , when I raise this point, the Minister pulls out some letters saying , oh, no, ' we've got some empty senior citizenshousing .

If that's the case, fine, I think we can supply him with people, and will he guarantee that he can get them into senior citizens' housing immediately , because that's what he's implying that there are these units available to take people in, right now. MR. JOHNSTON At the present time, a total of 22 bachelor applications have been forwarded . We have to date 36 bachelor suites and all eight one-bedroom suites in the senior citizens ' building on Strauss Drive have been filled. This leaves 61 vacant bachelor suites.

If it's couples, we may have some problem, but we have 61 senior citizens' bachelor suites available at the present time on Strauss Drive. MR. PARASIUK And the building is built, completed, and the 61 units are available if senior citizens want to move in. MR. JOHNSTON That is correct. MR. PARAS IUK Okay, fine, because you see, whenever we contact the Winnipeg regional housing authority with requests from constituents who, in fact, want to get into senior citizens' housing , we are told that no senior citizens, no vacancies are in place, and people are put on two or three-year waiting lists .

If you're in your 80s and you are told that you have to wait for two or three years to get into a senior citizens ' complex , it's pretty frustrating. The statement from these people is, " I'll probably not be around at that stage ," and that's why I think it's very important for the Minister to be very clear as to whether in fact , these facilities are available or not. MR. JOHNSTON I just said those were . Mr.

Chairman , I also informed the member earlier that on a survey of the senior citizens ' applications of 1400 that were on file, 400 were not available for comment as to whether they were still eligible or wanted to go . MR. PARASIUK What about the other thousand? MR. JOHNSTON The housing authority just had them pile up. We are now checking them thoroughly. MR. PARASIUK What about the other 1,000 applicants? MR. JOHNSTON Mr.

Chairman , the waiting list analysis progress report is as follows: Elderly persons housing - the list has been worked on, and this is a current standing : "Sent letter to 1 ,573, response , 677 , 12 needed nursing homes , deceased , 9, moved, address unknown, 88, accommodated , 201 in new buildings. Applicant cancelled , 28; WHRA cancelled, 79, cancelled due to social problems. Status unknown , 28; wnclear whether they are on or not. Re-sent , 463 , mailed May 12th. We should have an update on the 463 within two weeks , I hope . If everyone is returned , the maximum list is 1,128.

WRHA at the end of April was showing , bachelor 892 , one bedroom , 271 for 1,163." As I said , there are 400 right off the bat, and we are just completing the survey on that. We are just now completing the survey on our applications for public housing , which has not been done, and it is being done now . Mr . Chairman . I might add , we are not going to move ahead without having these surveys completed and knowing where we are going . MR. PARASIUK Well , Mr. Chairman , this is where the confusion arises.

I have , in my possession , a document sent to me by the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority regarding senior citizen accommodation as of March 15, 1978, and it lists all the locations. It says: All Occupied . Waiting List . For all of them. For all of them , and here is the document if you want to see it. I just contacted them because I have received so many requests .

I then asked them to send me material indicating which ones have waiting lists , and I'll try and direct these people to complexes that might be outside of Transcona or Elmwood , but I would tell these people , look if you need senior citizens ' accommodation , you may not be able to get it in Transcona , or you may not be able to get in in East Kildonan , but possibly there are other parts of Winnipeg that you could go to if you need 2671

Thursday, May 25, 1978 senior citizens' accommodation that much. I get a letter from the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority telling me that all of these complexes are occupied. All the units are occupied . 1 have this document. I sit there , I look at it, I come here, and the Minister tells us that that isn't the case . The applications aren 't being submitted to you .

They 're being submitted through this body, and we, as MLAs, are getting requests , and then we try and deal with it at the field level with the agency that does handle applications for senior citizen units; we receive formal , official word that they 're all occupied . Now, what are we supposed to do with that? What are we supposed to tell the people who are told that they are on two or three-year waiting lists?

I'm going to tell them that they should go directly, visit the Ministe r, because he knows of some units that the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority doesn 't know of, and he knows of some units that the individual homes, when contacted, don't know of themselves . And that's the difficulty that we find ourselves in as MLAs. And I think that's the difficulty that senior citizens , applying for senior citizens ' accommodation find themselves in. They would like to know , whether in fact there is an insufficient supply of senior citizens' housing.

And every time we try and place someone , or every time I try and place someone, I'm told that there's an insufficient supply , and the Minister tells us that there isn ·t an insufficient supply, that Oldfield , Kirby and Gardener have told them that there are a couple of units , or a couple of areas, which have some excess supply . I wish the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority would tell me that , or is Oldfield , Kirby and Gardener operating in isolation from the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority.

And if that's the case , that would strike me as being highly inefficient - is there any mechanism for co-ordinating the work of Oldfield , Kirby and Gardener with that of the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority? And how did Oldfield , Kirby and Gardener get involved in the whole area of management of social housing units in the first place? Was that done through a tender process, or was it just done by a group that possibly doesn 't have very much experience in this area? MR. JOHNSTON Mr .

Chairman , I will be tolerant to a point , but if the member is going to try and put words in mouths and have people put on the record things that are not properly true , then I might not be quite as tolerant. MR. PARASIUK What are they? MR. JOHSTON JOHNSTON But it's the same thing . When you talked about Leaf Rapids in the House , you were completely off base , but you said it anyway . But this letter that I'm quoting from is signed by Garry Charles . MR. PARASIUK Well , I've got a letter here from him , don 't start talking about being off base . MR. CHAIRMAN We can only have one person speaking at a time.

The Ministe r has the floor . MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , my letter was given to me on the basis , and it's backed up on the basis that we have not been building senior citizens ' housing in the proper manner . We have been putting senior citizens ' housing in areas where senior citizens don 't want to go. And many -- of our applicants at the present time , say to us, we will only move - or when we call them , they = say, we'll move if we can go to such and such. A MEMBER 185 Smith Street. MR. JOHNSTON 185 Smith is the most popular . MR. PARASIUK How big is the waiting list on 185 Smith Street?

Is it long? -(Interjection)- You 're not the Minister . How long is the waiting list for 185 Sm ith Street? MR. JOHNSTON 33 bachelor , 14 one bedroom . MR. PARASIUK That 's the waiting list for 185 Smith Street? MR. JOHNSTON That's correct . MR. PARASIUK That's the only extent of the waiti ng list . MR. JOHNSTON That's right . MR. PARASIUK You mean to say that those people who could n't get in to any of these other spots 2672

Thursday, May 25, 1978 in Winnipeg , if they were told that they have an option of getting into 185 Smith Street , the y would say, no. MR. JOHNSTON I don 't know what they 'd say, Mr. Chairman . I'm saying that when we apply to these people, they say, we want Smith Street , we would prefer to be downtown ; or we don 't want to move to the suburbs; we're getting those type of answers . And those are the type of things that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation was not allowed to study under the previous government. MR.

PARASIUK Wait a second , I'm asking , you are saying that the staff were not allowed to study those particular questions? Is that what you are saying? Could you then tell me who disallowed it and give me the substantiation for that? MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , the staff , let me put it this way , had no real say whe re senior citizens ' housing would go. It was usually decided by the Minister .

It was usual ly dec ided by the government ; it was decided on the basis , if we've got a piece of property, we'll build it here ; and it doesn't give a damn whether we need it here or we don 't need it here , we'll build it there. MR. PARASIUK Can the Minister provide any documentation to bac k up that charge? MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , I said it last year in this committee , I said it when I was the critic and I'm saying it now . MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS Mr.

Chairman, on a point of privilege, ... all the housing projects and the location of them were decided by the Minister and that is not true . It's blatantly untrue and it 's misleading . I'd like him to withdraw that. MR. JOHNSTON Mr. Chairman , the policy dictated by the Minister was to build anywhere at any time - whether it was the policy of the Minister , or the policy of the government , the Minister responsible for MHRC , whoever it may have been, the policy was to build as much as you can , anywhere , at any time, and at any cost. MR. EVANS Mr. Chairman , the Honourable Minister can have any

interpretation he wants , I guess , because I'm sure I'm not going to dissuade him otherwise . I seem to think that he's bringing in every excuse not to proceed with building housing . I can advise him, particularly in the area of Winnipeg , there are so many projects involved , that it would almost be impossible for one person " to try to delineate the location and the sightings of such projects . That's just patently ridiculous , and I would advise the Minister to be more cautious and more careful with his remarks . Let's have a little rationality . MR. JOHNSTON Mr.

Chairman , let me go back to the proposal call system that was used by the previous government, in that there were many times , many times that this government built units , that because of the property costs , CMHC , would not supply 90 percent of the money and the Provincial Government ended up paying probably 20 percent and the Federal Government 80 percent and they went ahead anyway . Those are documented . The decision on proposal calls would disregard for cost of land at any time, was there . I said that last year when I was critic and it is there . There is a complete disregard .

I might also say that when I took offic e on the 24th of October , I was presented with a list of expropriated properties that was prepared to be built on and we don 't know to this day , because we are still in court , what we will be paying for the property . We don 't know whether CMHC will be involved in it at the price we have to pay. And the previous government would have gone ahead and built on those properties . We will not , until we know . MR. CHAIRMAN The Member for Transcona . MR.

PARASIUK With respect to the last point , can the Minister confirm that the advisor used by MHRC with respect to those expropriations was a lawyer by the name of Ross Nugent , who I think is probably well known in the legal community when it comes to expropriations? MR. JOHNSTON Yes. MR. PARASIUK Now , he was the person , I presume , who was providing advice to the MHRC on 2673

Thursday, May 25, 1978 this matter , and this is a technical matter. Is he then saying that somehow Ross Nugent didn 't provide correct technical advice to M H RC with respect to those expropriations? MR. JOHNSTON No, there was a committee called LARC set up with Mr . Nugent , the co-op company for .. . MR. PARASIUK Who was on that committee? MR. JOHNSTON Allan Post , Ross Nugent , somebody from National Co-op , and an appraiser from Co-op Trust . MR. PARASIUK Well, the first two names have no connection whatsoever with the New Democratic Party or the New Democratic Government.

I think they are people who are in the real estate field, the legal aspect of the real estate field or the financial aspect , and they , I gather , were set up as a special committee to provide advice , technical advice , to the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation . MR. JOHNSTON That's right . MR. PARASIUK It seems to be a normal thing to do and somehow that advice was followed by the MHRC board and those expropriations were proceeded with .

Now , in terms of what a fair price is, that is something that I gather in the expropriation procedure is determined by a judge and the interesting thing is that those expropriations were utilized to acquire land in the inner core of the city which the Minister says he would like to see some action happeni ng in. MR. JOHNSTON After we know what we are . . . MR. PARASIUK Okay , so that is what we are talking about. We are talking about some action happening in the inner city of Winnipeg . We are also talking about the greatest need for senior citizens, housing , being in the inner city of Winnipeg .

We are also talking about the longest waiting list for senior citizens accommodation being for 185 Smith Street . And then we have the Minister , having told us all these things, saying that he is not proceeding with the expropriations which would expedite the building of in-field units in the City of Winnipeg , in the down town area of Winnipeg . He is not proceeding with the building of the 360-unit senior citizens complex at the corner of Garry and York , which is needed . He is not even co nside ring a scaled-down version of that 360-unit complex .

He is not considering that what was being talked about at first was something called enriched senior citizens housing which provided a type of gap filler between plain senior citizens housing and personal care homes.

Surely , I think , he would recognize as would members of his : government , that there is the need to fill that gap between senior citizens housing and personal care homes , that people could go into enriched care homes where they get some type of assistance but not full-time care, that enriched senior citizens housing like that would enable couples to go into senior citizens housing when one of them is possibly a bit more infirm and requires some type of help , that those things are best located in the downtown core of the area, that they are best locate d downtown because they are equally accessible from all parts of the city.

So the Minister provides those general types of arguments but when we get down to hard specifics , he says he is not proceeding with any of those projects . That is why we have confusion as to what the Minister is really putting forward. Secondly , when I was raising the point about the need for senior citizens housing, I provided documentation not from some group that hasn 't had very much experience , I would guess, in the whole area of senior citizens or public housing management , but I was presenting evidence or documentation that I received as a public citizen from the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority .

That evidence , that says that there is a waiting list for all the units . Now , I think the Minister can 't have it both ways. He can 't make a general statement saying , " Well, sure, we have got these empty spaces, " and then I contact the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority and I am told that there are no empty spaces . And he still hasn 't answered that contradiction ; he still hasn 't answered why he won 't proceed with senior citizens housing downtown when he has acknowledged that the greatest need is downtown and the greatest demand for senior citizens housing is downtown .

Can the Minister please deal with the contradiction between what Oldfield , Kirby and Gardner tells them and what the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority tells me in a public document as of March 15. 1978? MR. JOHNSTON Mr . Chairman . I will correct the member once more, to have it on the record straight , my information is not from Oldfield, Kirby and Gardner , it is from Mr. Gary Charles

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-49b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 49b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ae0901bbe8d4efbd5fb9581dceab79944a388e8d

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