Manitoba Hansard — 13 March 1969 (Sitting 16, 28th Legislature, 3rd Session)

28-3-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, March 13, 1969 363 MR. CHAffiMAN: I'd like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery tonight. We have 14 students of Grade 11 standing, of the Gordon Bell School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Lorne Miller. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Wolseley. We also have in the gallery tonight 44 students of Grade 11 standing of the Transcona Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. McWilliams, Mr. McEwen and Mrs. Rempel.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Radis son, the Leader of the New Democratic Party. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you all here today. _ MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps this would be a suitable opportunity to deal with a number of the points which the members were good enough to draw to our attention this after noon. May I say that the members have been most kind in their references; in fact, Pm even sorrier than ever that I don•t have that $200 million and I'd be able to meet all of'the requests.

Beginning with the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. He inquired whether all of last year's appropriation had been spent. Yes, almost. Something less than $1 million remains unspent and that was primarily because of the weather. Roads paid out of FRED money.

Generally speaking, the work that you see indicated in the roads which are in the Interlake area, both provincial roads and trunk highways, not all of the trunk highways, but the work that is done-with FRED money is in that general area, and in this year's appropriations $2, 150, 000 is represented by money received from Canada under the FRED agreement. Sharing, in those projects which are shared, is on the basis of 40-60, and it's a substantial sum of money and is of great assistance to us. The honourable member also spoke about a dust-fre program for the province.

As I understand it and as I remember it, the Honourable the First Minister, when he was Minister of Highways, made reference to the hope that all of the provincial trunk highways would be sur faced and/or made dust free, and certainly this is the project on which we are working. I be lieve he, on one particular occasion, referred to the provincial trunk highway south of the main lin.e of the Canadian Pacific Railway or south of the Trans-Canada Highway, but in any event this certainly is our objective, has been and is, and we want to proceed with it.

Referring specifically to No. 6, No. 50 and No. 15, the honourable member will note that there is considerable work in the program for Highway No. 6 and it will be surfaced, and our objective at this moment is to do so as far as Gypsumville and then of course we'll have to deal with the further portions after that, but we have considerable in this year's program.

No. 50, as he will know, we are beginning the surfacing program and No. 15 is in this year's program, and I cite those as not only indications of the general program but as to what is intended with regard to those particular highways and others throughout the province. He spoke of the district offices and inquired whether or not the Northern District Office should be at The Pas or some other northern point.

The district office is located at The Pas with the Resident Engineer at Thompson and I think that, for the present at least, that arrange ment would continue - should continue, because actually at any other point in Northern Manitoba at the present time, the district office would be out of range because The Pas location gives the best location in relation to the northern roads and, of course, having a resident engineer located at Thompson enables us to give the supervision from that end that is required.

As the program develops, indeed there may be need to look at that again, but that seems to be proper at the present time. He spoke of a 10-year program and struck a responsive chord with me because I really think that would be a good idea. It might frighten the living daylights out of some of us and on the other hand might be perhaps disappointing if there were perhaps projects omitted even from a 10-year program, and disappointing to those who had projects in which they were interested.

In any event, what I know he intended, and which I find certainly very worthwhile considering, is the idea of long-term planning of our highway system and it may possibly be that we would move to something of that nature in future years. He spoke of the proper signing at the Perimeter with regard to Portage la Prairie and if · he would agree to list the name of another important community that lies in that general direc tion, I might be right with him. One of the great problems about signing, as members will

364 March 13, 1969 (MR. MeLEAN cont'd) . . . . understand, is that we have a lot of signs as it is and we have to try and strike a balance between proper signing, that is to say, signs that are useful and helpful, and having too many, so many that they become meaningless. In any event, I've noted the par ticular matter and we'll certainly be glad to look at that item.

Indeed it could well be that some general sign at the exits from Metropolitan Winnipeg on the Perimeter Highway, that perhaps we might consider developing some sort of general sign that would be of help with regard to all of the communities that are served by the highway beyond that point. He spoke of a north-south highway, referring to Windygates and Portage la Prairie, and if he will look on the program he will note that we have a reasonable length of work listed for provincial road 240 which runs straight south from Portage la Prairie and eventually links up with No. 31 to Windygates.

I'm not suggesting naming the whole project Highway 31, but in any event we show our good intentions with regard to that particular piece. He asked that we explain how road contracts are called and let.

Well, generally speaking - and I think this applies in certainly every instance that I'm aware of, personally aware of - the contracts are advertised publicly; in fact, there's often two stages where there's a sort of an interim or preliminary notice that contracts will be called on a certain project; there is then the formal calling of tenders and the tenders are opened in public and let to the lowest tender unless there are specific reasons for not awarding it.

In my own personal experience I am not aware of any that have been let to anything but the lowest tender although I think it is quite con ceivable that that might occur if there were special reasons that would apply. We have the obligation of satisfying the Treasury Board, or now the Management Committee, in that regard and, as I say, I have not been personally connected with any occasion when that policy has not been followed. He asked whether or not there was any give and take in those cases where perhaps a con tractor had had bad luck.

I think that I could say that, generally speaking, we try to exercise good judgment and fairness and do not endeavour to penalize a contractor for some problem over which he has no control, that we endeavour to exercise, as I say, fairness, good judgment and compassion where that seems to be a good idea. He spoke about licensing power toboggans and this is a very intriguing subject. We• re watching very closely the experience in Ontario where they are now registering or licensing power toboggans and we hope to benefit from their experience.

I would point out, of course, that unless we were to charge a substantial fee, and we are reluctant to do that because if we did that we might be faced with demands to allow them to run on the highways or the public roads, the expense both in the licensing and in the supervision of it would far exceed anything that we could receive by way of revenue, and so it's a very real problem.

I just ask the hon ourable members to bear in mind, it's one thing to police and supervise the vehicles on high ways which are known and marked out and so on, but imagine trying to supervise and police these machines running all over the country, fields and everywhere, and it would be a very great problem. I agree that there are, on occasions, accidents and perhaps we will, to use his own words, have to do something and I indicated earlier in this session that we had under consideration the idea of licensing or registering, and I say that that matter is under considera tion.

I'm concerned about the possible cost to the Treasury of doing a proper job in that regard but I'm not unaware of the importance of being very much alive to the problems of these vehicles. He asked if there had been any convictions under the breathalyzer legislation. I'm not aware of any, although I wouldn't necessarily know of that. That is actually carried on by the police officers in the regular way. He spoke about the airport road at Thompson.

My information is that Ws really not too bad, although there are, I'm sure, differences of opinion, but just shows the problem because, while the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie speaks of doing a good job on the roads, his Leader thinks that perhaps there are lots of occasions when we ought to relax the standards. So we try to steer a reasonable course in between the two.

There is a real problem, however, with regard to the roads in that part of northern Manitoba because of perma-frost and other things with which he will be familiar, and we• re conscious that we haven't-- at least the department has not had the experience with the surfacing there that is the case elsewhere. We note what the honourable member says and will take it into account. The Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains wanted to know about the increase in the amount for stores and storage yards, and he put his finger right on it. He's quite right. This

March 13, 1969 365 (MR. McLEAN cont•

d) money, the increase, is basically to provide a new garage and storage facility at Dauphin. The present one we have is almost falling down and we• re-- I assure the members, Mr. Chairman, that•s just a sheer coincidence ... This has noth�ng to do with the fact that I happen to be the Minister of the department, that although it's.not an unwel come -- (Interjection) -- yes,. it happens in.public affairs from time to time. I'm glali ·t:Q •.. He speaks of Highway 10 through the park and I agree with him.

I have to say quite frankly to the committee that my present disposition is to feel that we ought not to be urging the government of Canada - I mean as a government; we might do it in our personal capacities - the Government of Manitoba to urge the Federal Government to take any particular action with regard to their roads, because I imagine we probably wouldn't be very happy if they began s�)r ing to us what they thought we ought to do on our roads which are our responsibility.

However, I think the point that he makes is correct and it really does take away froni the fact that we have good roads leading up to the park on both side.s. . He inquired about the road from Grand Rapids to Ponton, No. 6, and on� of the other mem bers mentioned the matter as well. At the present time the construction of a bpdge over the. Williams River is under way. Forty miles of road was constructed from Ponton south to the .., it just escapes my memory at this moment.

I'll have it here _.., Hargrave Rive:r -- and we have requested the departmental people to prepare plans for the bridge over the Hargrave River and there remains one other river crossing- there .are three altogether and -- Penago River �- so that that is the general -- and there will be some grading work going on. Pm not able at this moment to say what length of actual road construction.

We haven't ma.de any decision on that except that we have a sum of money in for these northern roads and this matter will be receiving our attention very soon. · He raised the question about having heavy construction equipment of our own and perhaps doing some of the work that is now let by contract. That• s a good philosophical point tO discuss and he and I might have some differences of opinion about that. I am under the impression that our experience is that in construction projects that we get the work done more cheaply by letting it out to contract, to private contractor�.

There's some elements that get involved in work that is done by government forces and government machinery that sometimes tends to increase tl:ie cost. At the moment we have no plan of doing as he has suggested. He inquired about & breathalyzer in the hospital . These machines cost approximately $950, 000 and we have five of them at the present time. None will be located in a ho�:�pital. I think we would have to have quite a number to actually have one in any hospi�l and, even if we did, there might be some problem in deciding what hospital.

The idea is that the breathalyzer remains in a fixed location within a district and persons who are asked to take. the test a.re taken to the machine, because they ought not to be mov�d around, but at the present time none are in any hospital, I don•t anticipate that there will be, at least during the course of the next year. The Honourable Member for Rhineland spoke about No. 30. He will notice that it's going to be rebuilt - and if I can use an expression that the Honourable Member for St.

John• s accuses ) me of frequently - travelling hopefully, perhaps this may mean that it will be surfaced at a ., reasonably early date. . He asked about the policy with regard tO the maintenance of provincial roads, and does the municipality have to complain, and who determines how much is to be done. Well, members will remember that along with the introduction of the provincial road system there was an increase in the number of districts throughout the province, and one of their jobs is to supervise, examine and arrange for the maintenance of the provincial roads.

Now, because most of the provincial roads are gravel, gravel surface at the present time, we naturally understand that there are always those who think they could be maintained to a better stan:dard and we are always glad when we have suggestions about matters of maintenance, but we do have a very complete system of supervising these roads and we do our very best to maintain them in good condition. Municipalities do complain to us and we try to look after the matters as best we can. The Honourable Member for Rhineland also asked concerning the bridges, who pays for bridges over new drains.

Speaking of the provincial highway, trunk highways and provincial roads, if the break is required because of an increase in the size of the drain for example, or for the construction of a drain that hasn• t been there before, we call upon the authority that has created the drain to provide a bridge that would be required. That might be. now the Department of Mines and Resources, if it was a drain of the order for which they were responsible. It could conceivably be a municipal drain, if it is a municipal drain that was being either put in for the

366 March 13, 1969 (MR. McLEAN cont1d) . . . . first time or being enlarged. I would imagine that in most cases the department would actually build the bridge but would charge the cost, as I say, to the author ity responsible for the drain. The Honourable Member for Emerson spoke of the dusty and hazardous conditions - and he was speaking particularly about provincial road 201.

I agree with him and I'm very conscious of the problem that is involved for school buses and other, and private vehicles, and for that reason I am the first to acknowledge that we must persevere, and as quickly as is humanly and financially possible, to get a surface on all the roads in the province because it is an essential of modern day traffic. He will know that there's some work to be done on 201, and it shows that our heart at least is in the right place and that we'll try and back that up with as much money as we can.

The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition urged the completion of Provincial Trunk Highway No. 50, and I hope that we will be able to continue with our work there. He asked also that we look at provincial roads 260, 261 and 276. We will be very happy to do that, to consider what might be done in those cases. There is a reasonable program of work, however, in the area which is represented by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, and I would not think that we would be able to add anything to it during the course of the next year at least.

It was the Leader of the Opposition that raised the point that we might well consider roads of lower standards in certain cases, and that's an idea that's worthy of consideration. I can't embrace it too strongly because then my colleagues in the department might disown me, because they're very anxious, naturally and properly, to construct roads of a good high standard. But he made the point also that surfacing is the request of the travelling public and I think one can say without question that it is a very important aspect of modern roads.

The Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party made reference to Saskatchewan roads, and I'm very fond of Saskatchewan roads myself. I travel sometimes in that province, and while I know they would fit I'm sure the idea of roads not as high a standard as we have in Manitoba, but they're very interesting to travel on and I know his point there. But I want to assure him, and I indeed thank him for speaking up for the member for Springfield, but he made a reference to our caucus that perhaps it was such a tranquil place that the Honourable Member for Springfield could speak up.

He ought to come and sit in on our caucus sometime, and indeed he ought to come and hear the Member for Springfield who has been after me about the same matters that the Leader of the New Democratic Party raised in such an eloquent manner. -- (Interjections) -- Well, now that I know that the Honourable Member for Springfield is joined by the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party, that adds a new dimension and ... it may well be the thing that would do the job. -- (Interjection) -- That•s correct. The perimeter - he put his finger on the part of the perimeter that is not completed and I acknowledge that.

Of course the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party picked out the most expensive part, and that• s a problem -- there are some engineering problems there but certainly we have not lost the vision of the perimeter and we'll do our best to see that that vision � is carried out when we have the funds and when we can overcome the engineering problems. ..

He spoke of the completion of Provincial Trunk Highway 15 from Elma to Rennie and said '"" that it was a short space and· a small item, but I have to inform him that it's a very expensive item and there's a good question in my mind whether it would be entirely justified; but in any event I may report to him that we have some ideas under consideration at the present moment that we think might possibly produce a suitable compromise to all concerned, and to give the good people who use Highway No. 15 a good road more or less direct to Rennie and the· Whiteshell. The Honourable Member for St.

George raised the point about early steps to get projects under way and I'm right with him. That•s my own view of how we ought to approach the matter and we• re going to press on and get things going as quickly as we can. He also asked about Grand Rapids to Ponton, and I think perhaps I've given some indication of that. He wanted to know if all of the projects would be completed in 1969, and I want to be quite frank with him and with the members of the committee, that not all of the projects will be completed in 1969.

We have this little matter of the fiscal year overlapping the construction year, and there are some projects that will be called in the fall of 1969. We can do that once we know we have our money arranged, and it could be that some of course would get done, or partly done in the fall of 1969. But I just want to make it clear that there will be some projects that will not be fully completed in the construction year 1969, but everything that we have in our program will be completed in

March 13, 1969 367 (MR. McLEAN cont•d) . . . . 1970 if it is not completed in 1969. I can give him two illustrations. For example, there's a surfacing matter on No. 50 in the constituency of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition which we've planned because there's some work that has to be done on the road before we c an get to the surfacing aspect, some work that has to be finished on the actual grading, and that I do not think will be called until the fall of 1969. And I think that on a road in the Honourable Member for St.

George•s own constituency, No. 325, it is possible that we will be unable to call for the - that• s a grading and gravelling project- it's conceivable that that contract may not be called until late in the summer, and I give those as illustrations of that point. He asked about Provincial Trunk Highway No. 6 from Warren to Provincial Trunk High way No. 67, and as he will probably guess, our colleague the now Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has a very real interest in that. I wouldn't like to make any promises, but I'm very anxious to see that that particular job gets done.

The Honourable Member for Brokenhead raised the question of development regarding the Selkirk Bridge on Provincial Road 204. I would undertake to check that. I'm not too certain just what we might be able to do about that; I'm not familiar with that . He then asked whether a bridge had been moved by the ice two years ago. My information is that it was not moved. The many sharp curves on 204, which is the Henderson Highway, we're certainly going to do the best -- I should say to him that my wife and I enjoy driving on that road now and we think it's very picturesque.

Of course I don't have to go to work over it but we don't want to deprive it entirely of its rather pleasant aspects, but I'm sure that many of the curves will be straight ened out on that road. We• re going to try and do a good job on that road which is of great importance to a very large number of people. He asked about lights and we•lllook into that. We have many requests for lights and we• re trying to do them in some reasonable order of priority. He spoke about the radar on No. 12.

I thought all the radar machines were between here and Dauphin, but I'm interested to know that there's some over in your area and we•lllook at that speed limit on No. 12. I'm not too certain ... MR. USKIW: 212. MR. McLEAN: Pardon? MR. USKIW: It's Highway 212. MR. McLEAN: Oh, I'm sorry- 212, very good. Well we•lllook into that and see what can be done with regards to the speed limit on that road. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, might I ask the Minister one question or-- was the honourable member up first? Go ahead.

I just wanted to-- oh, if you• re going to speak you can speak because I want to ask him a question, and it might take -- (Interjection) -- I would like to ask the Minister by what method does the department number the highways in the prov ince, because as one follows the map they are like Joe Brown's cows; they come home one at a time, they go away one at a time.

It seems to me the road map looks as though topsy might have concocted the whole thing because we have 201 on the far eastern part of Manitoba, 202 might be in the west, 301 in the south and 400 may even be down in North Dakota, I don't know, but I wonder if the Minister could tell us how the department arrives at the numbering of the roads. There seems to me to be no cohesion, no plan. Of course they are an unplanned gov ernment, I admit that, but I would like to know from my honourable friend what method, if any, they use. MR. McLEAN: If I knew the answer to that question, Mr.

Chairman, I'd be glad to tell the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party. I think you'll find that the numbering of the trunk highways is quite orderly and one can -- of course there are not as many miles. But I have the impression, if I might suggest this, that when the provincial road system was intro duced that perhaps there wasn't that much time to work out any particular scheme of number ing, and I would be the first to acknowledge it's a little difficult. I don•t really know that there's any particular system that has been applied. MR. PAULLEY: ... the energies of my honourable friend, Mr.

Chairman, may I sug gest to him that he bring a little order out of chaos and produce for us as quickly as possible a road map that somebody can read. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I wish to join the other members that have spoken before me in wishing the Honourable Minister my best wishes in his new department as Minister of Transport. In fact I'm quite happy that he is the Minister of Transportation because I believe he is quite flexible and for this Pm very appreciative, because last.year when we were

368 March 13, 1969 (MR. PATRICK cont•d) . . . . discussing breathalyzers I believe there was some reluctancy on the Minister in respect to breathalyzer legislation, but I'm very happy that he probably has changed his mind or listened to some of the people on this side of the House and we have breath alyzer legislation in the province. I do appreciate, also, that breathalyzers will not curtail all the accidents and stop slaughter on the highways, but I feel it is going to be one of our best deterrents that we're going to have in reducing the fatalities that have been occurring in this province. Mr.

Chairman, I also wish to mention something about my constituency, and the reason I'm happy the Minister is the Minister of Transportation is because of his flexibility. I've been listening to most of the members asking for a mile or two for their constituencies and I feel that I should do the same and ask for a few miles in my constituency, and in this case I'm referring to the east-west thoroughfares in Assiniboia, and particularly from the inner perim eter to Headingley. As you realize, in the first few months of this year St.

James-Assiniboia again is leading the whole metropolitan area in the number of homes constructed, in the con struction permits of apartment blocks, and Portage Avenue has become a very congested and busy street. And I feel if we can not necessarily have a paved highway or a freeway, but if we would just have a decent sort of a grade built along Saskatchewan Avenue from the perimeter to Headingley, and in the Town of Headingley it would turn back through Headingley and could go across to Charleswood or back to the Trans-Canada No. 1.

I think this is most urgent in this area of the city, in the west end, because as you realize our east-west thoroughfares in our part of the city are in great need of improving. I know it's not the responsibility of the .., government - Ness Avenue, Silver - it's the responsibility of Metro, so I will not take any time of the House to dwell on that part, but I do wish to suggest to the Minister if he would seriously look on the road going east parallel to Portage Avenue from Perimeter to Headingley.

The other point that I would like to take up with the Minister at this time is the inner perimeter and, as you realize, there has been a considerable amount of properties expropriated in St.

James for inner perimeter and I have no argument for planning for the future, say it be ten years or twel!ty years from now, for inner perimeter, but I would like to join with some of the other members that have mentioned that this may be good planning for the future but maybe we should improve our other roads before we proceed with the inner perimeter which has been suggested or mentioned that the cost may run anywhere $200 million or $400 million, and to me these figures are very astronomical figures, Mr. Chairman. I feel that what• s really needed in St.

James at the present time is probably a couple of bridges or two crossings from St. James to Charleswood instead of a freeway. Once again, I have no argument with a freeway for the future. The other point that I was very happy to hear is that driver testing now is covered through out the whole province and I would like to know and am interested how our mobile units are serving the isolated parts of the country points, and how this is working out.

I know that I am quite pleased with the Motor Vehicle Branch in the way that, according to the information that I had during last year, that the suspensions are coming much sooner now than they used to.

There are more appeals rejected, and to me this indicates that we are going in the right direc tion because, if you recall a few years ago when we were doing the Highway Traffic Act, and I believe I had a transcript of one person's driver's licence and in a matter of three years this person had 22 convictions and he was still on the highway, still had his driver's licence, and this sort of concerns a lot of people.

But I think this has been corrected to a great extent and from what information has been received in the mail and the paper I think that we certainly have made progress in this respect, and I feel that we are certainly going the right way. The other point, Mr. Chairman, that I wish to make, is I believe a year ago, the last two days of February when everybody has to get his new plates on their cars, there seemed to be almost no one at the Motor Vehicle Branch getting their plates. Why?

Was it the news media or the Minister or the department had done such a good job advertising and releasing news media that people were able, or made it their job to get their plates on early enough? But apparently this year I understand that the last two days there were great congestions not only in the building but all the way down Portage Avenue, every street around, for the last two or three days.

This perhaps is not very serious but I feel that maybe news released two weeks before or so probably would have reduced this congestion to some extent, because it seems to me that one year everything worked so smoothly and the next year we did get this congestion at our Motor Vehicle Branch.

March 13, 1969 369 (MR. PATRICK cont•

d) The other point that I wish to make at this time, Mr. Chairman, l' d like to say something about the Winnipeg Transit System .and I feel that something must be done. I understand the government is intending to bring some legislation but at the present time the Metro Transit System is paying anywhere, or somewhere approximately 20 percent sales tax per gallon of fuel.

I feel that the public utility, from the information that I have received, has paid some approximately $4 million for fuel taxes since 1953, and it has been estimated that this year the tax alone will amount to somewhere of $500, 000 or half a million dollars. It is my information that the government has made grants to the Transit System in the last few years approximately 50 percent to what the amount that the government collects in fuel tax.

Well, I feel that this is not right because, in addition to the Transit fuel tax, the Transit System also has to pay the 5 percent sales tax on the purchase of new buses, and I think it's high time that we have done something about it because in some of the other provinces, for instance our western provinces, the transit systems in urban areas do not have to pay sales tax on fuel and do not have to pay sales tax on purchasing of equipment. Today, transit plays a very important

part in the moving of population of people in cities, in large centres, and I think this problem cannot be regarded as a city problem any longer. I feel that the Provincial Government must play a major role to help financially to operate these essential services. I realize that some two days or three days before the election the govern ment made a grant, increasing their grant to half a million dollars to the Metro Transit System just before the by-election. But I feel, Mr. Chairman, that this is not enough.

I think that there must be some formula that the government's going to make grants to not one city but to all urban centres, and at the same time I wish to recommend to the government at this time that sales tax should not be charged on purchases of equipment and there should be no sales tax on purchases of fuel for the Transit System. I think that for the last few years, Mr. Chairman, the government has been making the small grants to the Metro Transit System. Well, this has already established the principle that the Provincial Government must play a

part in the Metro Transit System, not only in Winnipeg but in some of the other centres, Brandon and probably Flin Flon and some of the larger cities, and once again I would like to reiterate what I have mentioned, not only that the government has to play a bigger part financially by way of grants, but at the same time I don•t think that these transit systems should be paying sales tax on fuel and purchases of equipment.

One more point that l' d like to mention at this time, I feel that in addition we know that transit fares have gone up to 25, or will be going up to 25 cents with one transfer, I believe, and I feel that some concession must be given, or some assistance to the Old Age Security pensioners who, I feel, in the last couple of years due to increases in property tax, increases in the cost of living, and with increase now in the Transit System,it will certainly put a great burden on these people.

I know that most of them, or almost all of them, do not have cars for transportation like most of us and they have to use the Transit System every day, and I feel that either the Minister of Health and Welfare will probably make some legislation, be putting some legislation through, or the Minister of Transportation will do something about this. These are a few of the points that I wanted to make, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I want to participate in this debate, or these discussions.

Firstly, I want to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to the portfolio and to the change in the name to the Department of Transportation, because it is an indication, a recognition, that we have to look at the transportation question, the entire matter of moving people and moving goods, as an over-all problem. I had the privilege a few weeks ago of attending the first Urban Transportation Conference in Toronto, and I was extremely sorry that the Minister wasn't there.

There were 1, lOO delegates, about 600 municipal people, representatives of the Federal Government, elected people of the federal cabinet, cabinet ministers from eight out of the ten province:J of Canada, and I am sorry to say that Manitoba was one of the absentee provinces insofar as the elected representatives were concerned. There were some people from the department, from the administration, and I am sure that, in speaking to them I know they found the conference extremely enlightening and very interesting.

It was the first effort of its kind in Canada to pin point, or to bring to the surface, the problem of transportation, the problem of moving people and moving goods, and one of the things that came out crystal clear was that the problem that's facing us is really in the cities.

370 March 13, 1969 (MR. MILLER cont'd) .... Now, all through this afternoon• s debate we heard talk about highways going here and high ways going there and I don't doubt that this is extremely important, but when you try to relate the usage of a mile of highway in the country, in the rural areas, and the mount of traffic within an urban area, then there's no comparison.

Within the urban area is where most of the popula tion lives, where most of the business takes place, where most of the goods are produced and have to be moved and have to be delivered, and I think it's high time that we recognized that unless we tackle this as a total problem and not deal with it piecemeal, we• re not going to come to grips with it. The cities are in danger, really, of strangling through lack of mobility, through lack of easy mobility. Of course this is not a new problem; the problem has existed for many years.

The differ ence really is that the rate of growth in the cities is so rapid that we haven't been able to adapt to the change quickly enough, and the worst or perhaps the most aggravating thing is the fantastic growth of the car since the war. Like it or not, we•re obviously going to have the automobile with us. The rate of use of the automobile is, as I say, growing at a fantastic rate.

The num ber of cars per family is growing rapidly, and we have a choice, really, of whether we let the cars take over in our cities or whether we try to live with this new motor transportation that we have developed, and the consensus of people in the field is that, like it or not, we•re going to have to live with it, but if we don't watch out it's going to run our lives.

To counteract this problem, to meet the problem, the message came out quite clear in Toronto that a public transit system is the only possible answer, and I was very pleased that for the first time in the many conferences I have attended, for the first time, I noticed an acceptance on the part of people from every level of government, a recognition that public transit was another municipal service; it was in the same category as police protection, fire protection, health services. It was now accepted as a public service.

I know it was not too long ago-- it was five years ago -- if one mentioned transit there was always somebody who got up and said, well, transit should be run by a private company and they would run it efficiently and they would make money. Well, the truth is, of course, that throughout North America this is not the case, and in the odd areas where private transit is still operating, the end of the service is in sight.

On the east coast in Canada, where there is a private transit system, they've now given notice to the city that they• re going to close down; if the city wishes they can buy them out, but they• re out of business. In other words, transit is no longer a money-making proposition. It can't be; the automobile has pre- empted the field. But I am sure the Minister does recognize that without a transit system, a rapid transit system, a city like Winnipeg, or any urban area, would simply strangle.

People have to get to work; people must have their goods moved; people have to be able to have mobility within the cities; and there has to be reasonable standards of mobility to keep pace with the growth and the changes required. In Metropolitan Winnipeg, for example, a large segment of the population has no other transportation than transit. Fifty percent of all employees working in the down town area come to work by transit. This is the only way they can get there.

And to them this is just as vital, as I said, as sewer or water or police department or any other service, because if they can't get to work it's going to affect our economy; it's going to affect their standard of living; it will, as I say, stifle the development of the city. In 1967, 28 percent of the work trips per person were by transit.

This amounted - and this was two years ago - to 20, 500 people a day being transported to and from work by the Transit System, and this, if you stop and think of the figure 20,500, this is larger than many of our towns and communities throughout Manitoba, and to transport them daily to work and from work, I'm sure the Minister recognizes that this is an important function and is a difficult function, and that the choice is this. If the public transit system were eliminated, if Metro, for example, said, "Well, the answer is not to raise fares; we•ll simply cut down on our bus lines," they could do that.

They can cut costs by cutting down the number of bus lines, and if public transit were eliminated or were cut down, or if somehow all people -- take the other-- Just supposing all people who are dependent on transit today, this 20, 450 people a day that I mentioned, if they somehow were shifted to using private cars, if somehow they all acquired cars, were able to buy them tomorrow, you know the tragedy is that the situation wouldn't improve.

As a matter of fact it would be worse, because can you imagine the fantastic growth requirements for parking in the down town area of Winnipeg or around the industrial developed areas of Winnipeg? Because you have to store these cars once they come from home to down town.

March 13, 1969 371 (MR. MILLER cont'

d) Yet even today, with the Transit System operating, one-third of the down town area is used for parking. This is pretty well established. You all know about the facts, the criticism that Winnipeg, down town core Winnipeg, is just one big parking area, and yet if Transit was eliminated this would have to mushroom.

A study made by Metro Transit showed that if there were no transit routes operating on the east side of the river in the metropolitan area, just on the east side, it would require ten four-lane arterial highways -- this is new arterial highways- ten more four arterial lane highways, to move these people from the east side of the river to the west side of the river daily. If the additional roads were not built then it's obvious what would happen. Everything would just come to a sudden standstill.

Now one of the things perhaps that•s difficult for us to accept, because we adjust very slowly to change, is the idea that transit cannot be kept solvent and cannot operate simply by the fares it takes in. That's been discredited or that's been proven to be unsuccessful every where, because you get into sort of a rat race. If you raise the fares, certain people who•ve been using the transit find it is too costly or they find other alternatives; they find at that point it may be more economical to use the car.

And so you have a competition constantly between the cost of using the car or the cost of using the transit, and if the transit fees are raised con stantly the number of riders will drop. As the number of riders drops, the cost and the deficit of the transit system rises accordingly. And so it's a constant tug-of-war that is going on and, as I said, perhaps drastic surgery could be applied by cutting down the number of routes but it's a sort of surgery which might kill the patient unfortunately. You could drive the transit passengers away from transit and simply compound the problem.

Now I know that the government has accepted the principle that transit is a service that has to be recognized, and they•ve made some small measure of a gesture in that direction. A few years ago they introduced the formula of 3 percent of gross revenue or $250, 000, whichever was the least; this year, just before the day of the by-elections, they announced an increase of another $250, 000. But, Mr. Chairman, it's really not even a band-aid.

Metro is still facing a deficit of about $5 million on their operation and they' re going to the local taxpayer to pick up that deficit, and the situation is not going to ease by the paying of this $250, 000. And I'm sug gesting to the government that they have to accept that a bus carrying 50 - 60 people is, in a sense, or is actually saving them money on road construction, because if the buses were not there, the transit did not operate, as I mentioned, the number of lanes, paved lanes to carry traffic, would almost double.

And so, when you're thinking in terms of support for the construc tion of roads in Metropolitan Winnipeg, it seems to me you also have to accept the idea that a transit bus carrying passengers and saving on the number of miles of paved roads that would otherwise be required, that saving has to be recognized and I believe the province has to get into the support of the capital purchases of Metro Transit buses. And I don't just mean in Metropolitan Winnipeg. Brandon is in the same position; and other growing communities, if they aren't in that position, soon will be in that position.

I think it's a matter, really, of recognition of the realities and a break from our traditional thinking to deal with this problem, and it's really an acceptance on the part of the government of the unique problem of urbanization that we're facing. In planning, I know one of the key areas has to be the setting aside today of transportation corridors. Now this is a costly matter. The development plans of Metropolitan Winnipeg just recently announced - and I'm sure the Minister has seen them or probably has a copy of the development plans - shows where the transportation corridors might be going.

But the time to acquire those corridors is now, because even though the cost today is high, I'm sure the Minister realizes that the price paid today will be far less than the price paid ten and fifteen years from now. Had the transportation corridors been set aside in 1950 or 1955, I'm sure he knows how much relatively less would have been paid than the prices that have to be today for the same corridors that have to be purchased, or for the widening of streets.

And corridors are absolutely essential for a planning of the community, because it is on the basis of the corridors that are set up that the planning can develop, that the direction of the growth of the urban area can be guided. Another aspect of it, although not directly related to transportation, is that the speculation that goes on through people hanging on to land and simply waiting for the windfall can be elimi nated by setting aside of corridors today, acquiring them, as I say, at a price which, although it may seem high today, will actually be a saving when we look back ten or fifteen years hence.

372 March 13, 1969 (MR. MILLER cont'd) .... So I thought I'd like to bring these matters to the attention of the Minister. There was one item mentioned by, I believe, the Member from St. George, the question of the use of the breathalyz.er and the thought that perhaps the hospitals, setting up the breathalyzers in hospitals, should be considered by the government, and I'd like to certainly support that position. As you are probably aware, the Mayors and Reeves Association of Winnipeg has been very concerned with the present proposals put forward with regard to the breathalyzer.

The municipalities are informed that breathalyzers can be ordered at $1, 000 each and that, if they desire, police men or their constables can be sent to Regina for training. The cost per constable is $300. 00. Now obviously, if there are four shifts on any police force, there must be at least three or four constables on every shift that are trained in the use of this equipment, and to send people off to Regl.na for this course seems to me completely the wrong approach. I don't know why it has to be the mountain going to Mohammed.

It seems to me that if the province estab lished the breathalyzer as an instrument to be used in the control of highway traffic accidents and the control of impaired driving, then surely the province has an onus, not simply to pass a breathalyzer Act, give it to us and then turn around to the municipalities and say, "It's your baby. You buy them. You train your men. You do what you want with it." It seems to me that the province should be providing the training facilities, that the province should be anxious that as many police constables throughout Manitoba be trained in the proper use of this facility.

And when the Federal Government acts to amend the Criminal Code and they establish under the Criminal Code the alcoholic content of . 08 which has been stated is the figure that will be considered the level of intoxication under the Act, at that point there not only will be the neces sity of using the breathalyzer, the instrument itself, but also the question of the urinalysis, the question of the blood content, and it seems to me very logical that the breathalyzer and the test ing should be in a hospital where trained personnel are on duty 24 hours a day, where they can take a blood test 24 hours a day, where the people can be, as I say, partially trained and they can certainly be trained in the other aspects of using the breathalyzer, I think much easier really than training some of the police constables who are. dealing with a piece of equipment that is really quite different from anything they•ve had before.

And since we• re starting from scratch, we•re starting from the beginning, it makes sense to me to use the hospital facilities. Firstly, they are spread around, in Greater Winnipeg certainly, throughout the area.

They• re still one hospital short in the northern end of Metropolitan Winnipeg but we hope to correct that within the not too distant future, and within Metropolitan Winnipeg certainly a breathalyzer in the hospitals throughout the area would be not only more convenient, but I think would do the job far better than having one breathalyzer-at the Public Safety Building in Winnipeg and one perhaps at the police station at St. James, because, as I say, the people who are traiJl;ed are there and they can easily be taught the use of the breathalyzer.

But I think the breathalyzer is something that should have been given to the municipalities or to the authorities, and certainly the training shouldn't be dependent upon Manitoba having to send its people to Saskatchewan or, in the case of the City of Winnipeg, I gather they found a cheaper way of doing it. They• re going to send some men off to some state somewhere across the line; they will be taught; they will come back and then they in turn will try to teach others, and the other municipalities can send their men into training into Winnipeg.

Sure, it may work, but really it's the hard way of doing it, it's the inefficient way of doing it, and I think the most sensible way to have done it was for this Provincial Government to have done what other provin cial governments have done, having the responsibility for this, for introducing it, and since we• re dealing with the Highway Traffic Act and eventually with the Criminal Code of Canada, that the onus is on the government to make the equipment available and to actually set up a . school to train the men the way they want them trained and not simply leave it to some perhaps haphazard training and a standard of enforcement which may not be the same throughout Greater Winnipeg.

That's all I have to say at this stage, Mr. Chairman. I may have some questions later on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister was replying to some of the matters that had been raised earlier, did I understand him to say that the FRED share of the roads being built in the Interlake was 60-40, and if so, is it 60 FRED and 40 provincial or what is the percentage? The Minister touched on two items he said-- a program which he didn't think would be

March 13, 1969 373 (MR. GUTTORMSON cont'

d) completed this year. I'd like to ask him about one particu lar program that is shown in the schedule. I want to make it abundantly clear I'm not objecting either, but the program shown on Page 1 where he says on No. 6 Highway the P, T. H. 67 to St. Laurent, grade and gravel, and also P. T. H. 67 to P. R. 248, base and bituminous mat. Will they grade and gravel and pave in the same year? I hope that's the case but I just wondered if this was the policy of the government to do both in one year.

And with respect to the asphalt surface treatment which is being planned for this year on No. 6 and I presume other roads, is this work done by the Department itself? I understand the base is let out for contract and the treatment itself is done by the Department. Is it all done by the Department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. EDWARD I, DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Chairman, I would like to express my words of congratulation to the Minister in his new appointment and also, along with that, express my appreciation to the employees of the area office of the Department of Highways that I've had the pleasure of working with. These people are a credit to Manitoba and are doing a wonderful job, and I would express to the Minister, through him, the appreciation I have for these gentlemen. It seems that, at this time, Mr.

Chairman, that we sometimes become parochial in our descriptions of our own constituencies, and as I said on previous occasions, the Turtle Mountain constituency has I think more miles of hardtop road on five different trunk highways, maybe more than any other constituency in Manitoba, and I am very pleased and thankful that these roads have been kept up and are not only a great service to the people within the constitu ency but to the travelling public as well, realizing the fact that No. 10 Highway entering Manitoba is the second highway of entrance into Manitoba and attracting the tourists, as we see them coming through to spend their money on recreation in Manitoba.

I'm very happy, Mr. Minister, to express, on behalf of the International Peace Garden, your consideration for reconstruction of roads within the International Peace Garden. This in itself is not only an expression of confidence to the directors of the Peace Garden, but I am sure it shows through you your appreciation of the services that that garden is giving to Manitoba and the attraction that it has to tourists in Manitoba and exciting them to come into Manitoba to make Manitoba a better place to live in. And I'm sure in these short words, Mr.

Minister, that I would like to express on behalf of the directors their very hearty appreciation of the fact that you have seen fit to include this in your estimates for this year, and I'm sure that it will meet the wholehearted support of most Manitobans for this consideration. I have one or two other items, Mr. Chairman, that I'd like to express to the Minister.

On Highway No. 10, two miles north of Boissevain, there is a badly constructed curve and this has been, as I understand from coroner's inquests, the fault of one or two or three fatalities, and this is a simple remedy that can be changed and I would like the Minister to take it into consideration and consult with his engineers. It's the curve of the road and there's an offshoot road - it isn•t even a government road- going off of this, and coming from the south to the north, an individual coming from the east has no indication at all whether that fellow's going to go straight through.

I would like him to enquire of the engineers - it's a simple matter to straighten this out, I think that all it requires is to have the municipal people to change the route of this road, a very small area, and bring it in to a right angle instead of having it coming off this curve. I think, if my memory serves me right, in the last year and a half there have been three people killed on that particular corner and I think this would be serving the public quite well. Mr. Chairman, I don't like to feel that I'm bragging, but we have some wonderful things down in that southern part of Manitoba.

We have another international lake on the boundary and maybe one of the few lakes in Canada that serves both the United States and, in this particu lar case, Manitoba. It's Lake Metigoshe- I don't think too well known - but there are as many cottagers and campers on Lake Metigoshe as there are at the Riding Mountain National Park. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, that's right, even from Gladstone. And the only entrance we have, Mr. Minister, is from the government road 450 .

It's a good road; it's a gravelled road but it's a dusty road, and I am told that on occasions that as many as 1, 000 cars travel that road on a Sunday or a Saturday, and if it's a dry day it's a terrifically hazardous road. And I would appeal to you, Sir, that you would give some thought and consideration that some type of a dust-laying chemical was laid on this road to reduce the hazard. I'm not asking that we have a

374 March 13, 1969 (MR. DOW cont•d) . . . . hardtop road or an asphalt mat. On occasions the branch has established in front of farms certain areas of calcium chloride that have reduced the dust, but this doesn't reduce the dust on the total road and it's a matter of 13 or 14 miles that becomes quite hazardous if the wind is north and south. And so, Mr. Chairman, I have entered this debate primarily to express the appreciation to the Directors of the International Peace Garden and to plead with him that he would take a look at these two hazardous areas in my constituency and give some consideration to it. .. ....... Continued on next page ..

March 13, 1969 375 MR. CHAmMAN: The Honourable Member for Et helbert Plains. MR . KAWCHUK: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to ask a question of the Minister befo re he rises to make remarks on the previous questions . I was just looking over the Annual Report of the Highways Department for the fis cal year 1967-1968, and on Page 37 I note that there has been an expenditure incurred to the tune of $30, 048. 71 for the purchase of a right-of-way in the R. M. of Dauphin, the Dauphin by-pass , and I note there's no contemplation made in con struction, at least acco rding to this highway project schedule.

Would the Minister make com ment on that ? I think the route has now been surveyed and flags are sitting in the field, and I was just wondering whether or not the department anticipates going ahead with the construction of this by-pass in the very near fu ture. MR . CHAmMAN : The Honourable Member for Carillon. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon) : Mr. Chairman, I wish to join with the others in congratulating the Minister and his loyal staff. Certainly the people located in southeastern Manitoba, especially fellows like Mr.

Struthers and others, I think they're going a good job, not just for southeastern, Manitoba but also for the government. I believe they are also run ning short of money. As the Minister just mentioned a little while ago, he could possibly use another 200 million or so. I do think though that possibly if a little bit more of the 17 cents of gasoline tax was used, at least till our country is developed, I think this possibly would help. I'm not sure just what percentage is used, but my idea has always been that that money should certainly be going for roads. I might mention, Mr.

Chairman, that I am one of those that appreciate the concern given to the driver-training centres or departments through the schools, especially in the rural areas. I don't think it'll take too long that we'll see the improvement in some of our young drivers and possibly some of the - especi ally in the young drivers.

I was just wondering when the Honourable Minister spoke of high standards of roads, or possibly low standards of roads in Saskatchewan, I don't know, but when I think of our Highway No. 23 , I wouldn't want to call it discrim ination as far as the solid concrete on the other side of Morris and the kind of a real shabby road on this side of Morris from Morris to La Rochelle especially, I've sometimes been led to believe that poss ibly this road isn't complete and I hope it really isn't because it certainly is not anything that any government would wish to call a high standard road; in fact the little piece on No. 59 from Warren's Corner to the stockyards there, I sometimes wonder who really did the planning on that part of the road.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to also mention the fact that approximately four or five years ago I was led to believe in this Legislature that the entranc e road from No. 59 to Otterburne would be completed.

Now I understand that the next year they had to build a bridge and ap parently there wasn't enough money, and last year of course we had a wet year and I guess that wasn't suitable, and there was one year in between or possibly forgot about, I don't know, but I do wish the Minister would take note of this entranc e because even the former defeated candidate lived right on that road and I am sure that he would appreci ate this and I would like to see that he does get it, not just for his sake but for the other people too.

I'm also wondering - perhaps I should put it a little differen tly - I am thankful for the one mile of entrance road that's intend ed to be built at St. Elizabeth. I am sure that the present member of Morris and his friends in that area will certainly not mind that road, and I am thankfu l, I'm extremely happy to see the 2. 7 miles of grade on 216.

I must report though that the pegs that have been in there in the last ten or twelve years are all rotten and they'll cer tainly have to get new ones if you want to measure it up right now, and I do hope while it is only 2. 7 miles - it seems that it's maybe a little further to Kleefeld - I hope they' ve measured right because it would certainly be a catastrophe if that's the only 2. 7 miles in Carillon if it didn 't at least reach Kleefe ld.

However, as the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain mentioned a little while ago, we have some roads in our area which we appreciate, but coming back to some of the low standards of roads, and take No. 12 - and I must admit if the Honourable Minister understood No. 12 bef ore as far as radar is concerned, we have a little bit of that on No. 12 - also pos sibly on 212. However, there's another road that I am sure that the government is not satis fied with the type of standard that road is on.

I know the Minister's busy now, but I would like to invite him over next summer sometime - at least the frost bumps will be out a little more - but I'm sure he'll see what I mean. MR . CHAmMAN: The Honourable Member for Burrows.

376 March 13, 1969 MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, one of the first points that I noticed from the high way map which was distributed this afternoon and looking at the roads shown in my own con stituency is that there's a slight misprint. Arlington Street does not run into McPhlllips. The print is just a bit to the west of where it should be and I'd hate to see any tourist become an noyed and irritated due to a misp rint in the map while t ravelling through my constituency. There are three or four points I wish to mention, Mr. Chairman.

Fi rst, I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister whether checks are made from time to time on the timing of the rail way crossing flashing lights. In other words, do they go on in ample time for a motorist travel ling at the normal speed on an open highway, let's say at 60 miles an hour, to give him ample time to stop in safety. The other point that I wish to mention, rd like to emphasize and stress the point made by many others that have spoken before me re the markings on the perimeter route. I person ally do not feel that they are adequate.

Travelling through other cities, and I'm sure the Hon ourable Minister has found the same thing, markings do give the names of the intersecting streets and not only Metro route numbers, and it's more common just to give the Metro route numbers at the intersections of the perimeter routes rather than street names. There are one or two streets named -Wilkes Avenue is one that I can recall -but I note that as you approach Roblin Boulevard the Metro route number is given rather than the name of the street.

The same is true of McPhillips; the Metro route number is given and not the name of the road, and I do believe that for the benefit of tourists, for the benefit of strangers travelling in the pro vince, the name of the street would be more beneficial than just the route number. And also, the names of the cities to which the - or areas of the city to which the perimeter route leads, and I'm thinking of No. 59 Highway.

As you travel north approaching the perimeter route there's a sign that points to the perimeter route and all it says is "Selkirk", that is the direc tion to go to Selkirk, but there's no indication there that that also leads to North Winnipeg, that that is the route that one could follow to reach North Winnipeg, and I believe that informa tion of that type would assist a tourist. Looking at the highway map of the province, Mr.

Chairman -and I must confess that I haven't had an opportunity to study carefully the list of the proposed highway building projects that the Minister has given us this afternoon- but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be advisable to hardtop a highway from Dauphin through the Narrows and then it'll run into No. 6 Highway, I believe, and then from Stonewall across to Selkirk, and thus to provide a shorter route for the people from northwestern Manitoba to our beaches on the southeast shore of Lake Winnipeg - Grand Beach, Victoria Beach and that general area.

I'm sure that there are many people from that part of Manitoba that do visit that tourist area of our province and this would certainly cut down their travel distance by 50 to 60 miles I am sure. In the debate on the Throne Speech, Mr. Chairman, I had made reference to the govern ment giving consideration to the relocation of the CPR yards, and I do hope, Mr. Chairman, that our Minister of Transportation would take this matter under his wing and do give it some consideration.

As was indicated by the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks, he is the Mini ster of Transportation and not merely the Minister of Highways, and that being so he ought to be interested in the best possible transportation facilities for the Province of Manitoba in line with our urban development. Two other points, or requests that I would like to make of the Honourable Minister, Mr. Chairman.

I'm sure the Minister has noted in - I can't know whether other provinces of Canada provide this information but I have noticed that many of the States in the United States do -they provide a Highway Information Service to travellers. There's a telephone number prominently listed in the telephone directory which travellers could phone to enquire re high way and weather conditions. Now I know that there is such an office in Winnipeg, but what does one do to obtain similar information when one is beyond the local telephoning reach of the of fice in Winnipeg.

I suppose one could phone a police office, they might have that, an RCMP detachment, they might have that information, I don't know. Now perhaps the RCMP detach ments across the Province of Manitoba could be used for that purpose, to provide information of that type, and if they are now, if they do, I do hope, Mr. Chairman, that this be made known to the general public by means of giving that information in the telephone directory where one would most likely search for information of this type. The last point I wanted to deal with, Mr.

Chairman, I recall that a couple of years ago, or perhaps more, there was some experimental work being done in road construction on the

March 13, 1969 377 (MR. HANUSCHAK Cont'd. ) ••• Trans Canada Highway east of the City of Winnipeg. I believe that the road engineers experimented with the laying of a layer of some foam plastic, I believe it was, beneath the hard surface - I'm not sure just how far beneath it - but somewhere in there there was a layer of foam plastic and the purpose of it was, I believe, to act as a sort of an insulator and hence reduce the frost heaving, the frost boils. In general, the destruction to the roads that frost in our part of the country causes. I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, whether the Minister could report on the results of this test, whether this test has been completed, and if it has been completed, is this a method of road construction that could be utilized more widely.

If it isn't, is his department investigating into other ways and methods of building roads which would stand up better in our climatic conditions, because I am sure that road re pairs and road maintenance is probably just as large an expense item as the road construction itself, and if there is some way of building roads which would stand up better, then certainly not only would this reduce the costs in terms of maintenance but it also would make travel on our roads more pleasurable and a greater benefit to the users also. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR.

NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): My honourable friend the Minister has suggest ed that if he could find $20 million some place •••• MR. McLEAN: 200 million. MR. SHOEMAKER: 200 million was it? Well, what's a million, is the old story - that maybe he could give every member exactly what he wanted.

The Minister of Finance a year ago told us that he had, by implementing his policy of restraint, that he had saved 70 million last year, and by following the same practice this year he would save 51 million, so there's 121 million that we've found, so maybe we could find a little more some place and build some roads with this savings. Now, Mr. Chairman, a quick assessment of the revenues and expenditures seems to me to reveal, as my honourable friend the member for Carillon said a little while ago, that we are not spending the amount of money that we're receiving from the motoring public on roads.

Now it is true, Mr. Chairman, that we have not yet received the estimates of revenue for the current year, but I have before me the estimate of revenue for the last fiscal year, and on Page 32 it is recorded that the gasoline tax alone produced just about $35 million in 1968 - or in 1967 rather - so my guess is that it produced nearly 40 million last year. On the same page we find that the motive fuel tax produced about six and a half million, and then over on Page 31 we find that the automobile and drivers' licences produced just about 10 million - and I'm not taking into account, Mr.

Chairman, the amount of revenue received from motor car rier licences and fees of another 2. 6 million - but when you consider just the three or four items, namely, the revenue from gasoline tax, the revenue from the motive fuel tax and the revenue from automobile and drivers' licences, you have roughly-55 million of revenue, and I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that all of these revenues or taxes were put on the statute books for the express purpose of building and maintaining roads. And the taxes have been creeping up as you well know. I think that the gasoline tax for instance was - what?

Eleven cents a gallon in 1958, was it not - or was it 9 cents - and it's now 17, so the gasoline tax al one has nearly doubled in ten years. So what my question is: Are we in fact not spending the revenue from these various sources on the roads, and if not, why not? Some seven or eight or nine years ago the Minister of Highways at that time - I believe, Mr.

Chairman, it was in 1961 - we had laid before us a booklet entitled "An Engineering Study", and it was a plan for Highways for Tomorrow, a plan that was intended to guide the department for twenty years, and the Minister of that day and the Deputy Minister and the en tire senior men of the department urged the government to implement the recommendations contained in this engineering study.

The propoganda sheet that went out upon the introduction of this engineering study dated March 30th, 1961, says, "543 million -- 20 year plan urged for Manitoba's roads", and it says that in speaking to the government you can implement this program if you like in ten years, in fifteen years or in twenty years, and they tell you exactly what the estimated cost would be if you proceeded with a ten year program, a fifteen year pro gram and a twenty year program.

Well I don't know yet which one of those programs the government adopted, but I'm as suming that they adopted the twenty year program, and if they did, according to the propaganda sheet that was issued at that time, it was forecast that they would have to spend $543 million and that this would result in a new highway program spending of - well, I'm going to quote

378 March 13, 1969 (MR. SHOE MAKER Cont'd. ) •••• from the propaganda sheet. "To spread this program over twenty years the cost would be in the neighbourhood of $27, 196, 000 per year. " That's new highway programs to get caught up. Well we're not doing that according to the estimates that are before us, and I suggest that we could do it if all the revenues from the various sources were used as it should be, I suggest, on our roads. So I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if somewhere along the line this dynamic jet-aged engineering study has got into the wastepaper basket somewhere, or are we in fact still following the recommendations laid down by the engineers of that day. Now I would like to endorse what my Honourable Leader had to say before the supper hOu.r in respect to giving consideration to building morehardsu rfaced roads of less qual ity than the provincial trunk highways. And I refer at the moment, Mr.

Chairman, to two of the first bla cktop roads that this province - not this government - that were built in this province at a very low cost - and my honourable fried the Minister I think will know of them as well - that is the one that extends what we call the Pl umas Road from P. T.H . No. 4 up to Pl umas, a distance of some twelve miles, and it's an excellent road and it was a terrible road prior to putting down the blacktop because it was washboardy all the time.

And the other one that's been down I guess now for 25 years, and still in use, is the one from Neepawa seven or eight miles suuth on the Carberry road. They're good roads and they're dust-free, and I suggest that my honourable friend should investigate the cost of this type of road. I think they call it road mix or cold road mix or something of that kind. I think it's worth considering. 4 My honourabl e friend the Leader of our group also mentioned a particular road from ·' Plumas to Walders ee, and on this particular

section of the road there have been at least three fatal accidents, and in addition to that several accidents that resulted in injuries to persons and certainly substantial damage to property, simply because for two miles north of Plumas you have a blacktop road and you drop off the blacktop on to a light sand t>r gravel road and the dust hazard is just terribl e on that

section of the road. I recommend to my honourable friend that something be done about that. In speaking to one of our municipal sec retary-treasurers yesterday, we were discuss ing the additional five percent, $5. 00 per capita grant, unconditional grant, which both of us were pleased to have announced, but he said, "you know, one of the ways that we will be using this additional grant is to do something with our school bus roads".

That is, my honourable friend knows full well that many of the school bus roads are a 100 percent municipal responsibili ty, that is the school buses do not travel entirely on provincial trunk roads and provincial trunk highways. And this particular secretary-treasurer said, "These municipal roads are taking a terrific beating with the additional traffic of the school buses. " And so this brings up the point, Mr. Chairman, is it the intention of the government to extend the number of miles of provincial trunk roads in the province?

In consider ation of the increased number of school buses that are in use and will be in use, is it the intention of the government to increase the number of miles of provincial trunk roads in the province, or is it in order for the municipal men to make appl ication to the government to have a particular

section of the municipality de clared a provincial trunk road. How do the municipal men go about encouraging the govern ment to impl ement more miles of provincial trunk roads ? Now, Mr. Chairman, when I was speaking on the Throne Speech debate, I asked anyone that was listening at that particul ar time - and I don't suppose there woul d be too many - but I did ask what was the government's program in respect to the Yellowhead route. Now I don't think that I have to make a long speech to my honourable friend the Minister of Transportation to describe or define the Yellowhead route.

If he is in receipt of the Financial Post dated March 1 last, on Page 16 there's a whole story there headed: "Yellowhead Road Will Avoid Conges tion on Trans-Canada. Three provinces improved network of roads that could become western Canadian portion of second Trans-Canada Highway. " And do you know the province that it doesn't mention ? Manitoba. Quite a story on what British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan have done to date to bring th.e Yellowhead route into a reality ; no mention at all of what Manitoba has done or intends to do in this regard.

So I would like to have my honour abl e friend tell the House what he intends to do to co-operate with all the other provinces to bring this second Trans Canada Highway into a reality. And not only that, Mr. Chairman, but I would li ke to know what route it will take in Manitoba. Surely my honourable friend, living as he does north of the Gladstone constituency, would make every effort to see that the Yellowhead route goes through Gladstone, Neepawa,

March 13 , 1969 379 (MR. SHOEMAKER Cont'd. ) •••• Dauphin, Gilbert Plains, Roblin, so I look forward to hear ing what my honourable friend has in store for the people in that very valuable part of the province. Wait until the election and well the road - what's the old adage - the road to the hot place is paved with good intentions. Well we want some roads that are paved with some good asphalt rather than good intentions. It makes it easier to travel on when we're alive.

Like the Irishman said, "It's all right for you, when you die you've just got to die, but when I die I got to go to hell yet." Well, we've got a lot of places to go before we die and we'd like to have some good roads to travel on. My honourable friend says it's better to travel hopefully than to arrive. It's nice to know when you start out that you're going to arrive alive, and on this theme, Mr.

Chairman, I want to endorse what one or two members have already said in respect to the value of our driver education program, and rm referring to the ones that several of the high schools in our pro vince have seen fit to introduce and have already graduated several students. As a matter of fact, just a week ago last Monday I had the honour of presenting Driver Certificates to 22 students at Neepawa.

You know, the insurance industry has already recognized the value of the driver education classes to the extent that they give you a 10 percent reduction in your insurance premiums upon presentation of one of these driver certificates, so that in one fell swoop they get back more than their $20. 00 tuition fee - is it not $20. 00, Mr. Minister, that they charge the student for - (Interjection) - $30. 00 -- (Interjection) - $20. 00. Well, whatever it is it's well worth the money, and I certainly recommend that it be extended to the fullest degree.

In the United States, where apparently they implemented this program, this driver education program, some years ago, they have established statistics to show that stu dents or drivers that have received certificates have a 50 percent better record than the run of the mill, that is they're twice as good a driver than the run of the mill. Now someone has suggested, Mr. Chairman, that - in fact several people have already said how happy they were to see the government implement the breathalyzer legislation and in fact put it in force.

Now of course I believe the legislation just became effective on March 1, and so therefore there has been no convictions to date, I guess, according to my honourable friend the Minister. However, I want to remind you, Mr. Chairman, that it was this Party that for a couple of years introduced the resolution that resulted in this legislation being on t:he books today and it was my honourable friend who had some grave doubts about - and prob ably still does, I don't know - about the impact of this breathalyzer legislation.

But I want to compliment him on at least paying some heed to the resolution that has been on the Order Paper for a couple of years, and we in our group like to think that we are entitled to some credit for having suggested it. Now, Mr. Chairman, it's just about time to call it a day and a half I guess, eh ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Five minutes. MR. SHOEMAKE R: Five minutes. Well, do you think I should go till 12:00 o'c lock? - (Interjection) -N o? MR. CHAffiMAN: Just till 10 :00. MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, well - (Interjection) - Mr.

Chairman, probably my honour able friend would like to make some comments before 10:00 o'c lock, but I do notice on the highway projects

schedule that was laid on our desk upon the introduction of the estimates that there isn't too much planned for the Galdstone constituency, but in consideration of the fact that the Premier when he goes to Minnedosa pretty nearly has to go through Gladstone - I guess he doesn't have to, but he generally does. And then my honourable friend the Minister of Transportation when he pays almost weekly trips to Gilbert Plains and Grandview and Dauphin, now I hope that he will observe any weaknesses in the roads in the Gladstone con stituency on his travels back and forth to his constituency.

But I do urge that at times, either coming or going, that you take the Plumas road and go up to Waldersee and cut across to McCreary, and then the next weekend go straight west from Plumas to Eden and observe some of the provincial trunk roads in the Gladstone constituency and make certain that they're all in very good order, and if my honourable friend will undertake to do that, I will be very grate ful to him and everyone in the Gladstone constituency will feel likewise. So now, Mr.

Chairman, I know that my honourable friend would like us to pass the first item to make certain that his salary will be forthcoming this year, and so I will allow him two or three minutes for a rebuttal. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the

380 March 13, 1969 (:MR. CHAIRMAN Cont' d.) •••• Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and asks leave to sit again. IN SE SSION MR. M. E. McKELLAR (Souris-La nsdowne): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of the committee be received . MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. CARROLL : Mr.

Speaker, before adjournment I would like to have leave to table two reports - the Annual Report of the Department of Tourism and Recreation for the fis cal year 1967 -1968, and the Annual Report of the Water Control and Conse rvation Branch dated March 31. 1968. Incidentally, copies of these reports will be made available to members of the House, I believe tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR.

JOHNSON: I would beg pe rmission, if I may, to table the Annual Report of the Department of Health and Social Services covering the statutory requirement s of the Depart ment of Health and Welfare, and explain to the House that this report is at the pr inter's. As soon as it is received I will distribute copies to all members. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Transportation, that the House do now adjourn. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 10:00 o'clock Friday morning.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-3-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 3rd hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ae2b0af977ee0de3bcb42e15fd06ef487bb8e75f

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