Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 8B (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-8b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 8 March, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable, the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon ourable Member for Minnedosa has 20 minutes. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Apparently I did so well in the first 20 min utes before the supper adjournment that my col leagues have presented me with this lovely lapel gar ment that I have.

Actually I was just wearing it to really announce that Minnedosa, in my constituency, is celebrating its Centennial next year. We're not quite as young as Brandon or Gladstone. It appears as the rail road proceeded west year by year, the Centennials will be coming more and more and more as the years roll by. I congratulate the City of Brandon on their Centen nial. They have started off with triumphant figure skat ing championships held in their city and hosted extremely well and they're well into the Briar competi tion now.

I understand that the facilities there are excellent and I'm very happy to be closely associated with that particular city. -( Interjection)- Selkirk and Morden, that's right. They are celebrating their Cen tennials this year. Also Gladstone, St. Jean - I'll have to get a list of them and run them off. Mr. Speaker, I don't have too many more things to say but I did want to say something about the health care facilities, especially that nice new facility autho rized and commenced under the former administra tion in the Town of Selkirk in the Premier's home riding.

In case he is prone to criticize the government tor a do-nothing attitude and for not looking after his area, we've built roads and some excellent facilities for him there and even brought some industry in there. I commend the Minister for announcing in the Throne Speech the construction of a new 100 bed facility in the City of Brandon, which as I say, is very to my riding and I hope that it is not like the correction facility there that was announced and signs were put for three elec tions in a row, I think, before we finally built it.

But we are very glad of the announcement and while I am on care facilities, Mr. Speaker, I want to mention the facilities in my constituency that I am extremely pleased and happy that are there, constructed by the government that this past four years has been accused of doing nothing, some of it was commenced by the former administration carried on by us and completed and I refer to the care home facility in Rivers, an excellent facility that was opened a year ago and is now functioning at full capacity. I believe they did have some problems acquiring the necessary nursing staff, that is very regrettable.

But the facility in Hamiota, I believe, is not officially opened but it is ready to be opened, a 30-bed care home with a very fine elderly persons housing unit built along with it. I know that plans are well along by the Village of Erickson to have a care home facility attached to their 19 7 local little hospital, and I know the Minister maybe has not had time yet to go over all of the correspondence on all of the facilities that have been requested of his department and I know the constraints he will be fac ing with his Budget but I urge him to take a long look at the Erickson recommendation.

The people are extre mely conscious of the need for a home and the need to keep their hospital active and to maintain the services of their physician, which is so necessary in small rural areas especially that one that caters to a population in the summer months. With Riding Mountain National Park in close proximity, their population explodes with the tourist traffic and it is very necessary to main tain a doctor in close proximity because the medical facilities that were provided at one time by the park facilities are no longer provided.

I do hope the Minis ter will keep those requirements in mind when he meets with the delegations from Erickson that will undoubtedly descend upon him very soon once he has his priorities in place. So, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that while we are accused of doing nothing, we did locate a considera ble number of care beds throughout Manitoba in the personal care homes and the elderly persons housing. Mr. Speaker, I would remiss if, in a wide-ranging speech like the reply to the Throne Speech, I did not mention the wildlife situation that we've had some discussion in the House on.

As you know my consti tuency takes in a great portion of the Riding Mountain National Park where there is an abundance of wild game. elk, moose and white tailed deer that are being decimated, as the herds are throughout a great por tion of our province, and I urge the Minister to take heed of the warnings that he's getting and the infor mation he is getting from his Department. I think some steps have to be taken to try and solve this problem.

It's not going to be an easy to solve and I can assure him that he'll have the co-operation of members on this side of the House in coming up with something that's reasonable to all of the people involved in that problem. Mr. Speaker, I can't help but harken back to the problems of the cattle producers in Manitoba because every time you pick up a paper - and this just hap pened to cross my desk during the supper hour - "Cattlemen frustrated by government inaction.

Sas katchewan subsidy hurts Manitoba markets, Manitoba cattle producers." All of these things I know will be covered at greater length by my friend, the Honour able Member for Arthur, my colleague from Arthur, and he may not always take the high road. I know the Member for Selkirk, the First Minister, the Honourable Premier, I know is just anxious to get up and speak, whether he does it today or tomorrow. So, Mr. Speaker, I will not take any more time.

I would close with a word of caution to some of the new members that have come on with guns blazing and I will refer them back, as will some of the sage old partners on their side of the House, to the odd member that has come in here that way - a long departed colleague of ours, the former Member for Souris Killarney, Earl McKe llar - who used to stand up after every one of those speeches by a new member and

Monday, 8 March, 1982 say, "I have heard fellows talk their way into here and they've talked there way out just as fast" and the members over there will know some of the ones that I refer to. So just a word of caution to the new members. Just keep your powder dry and make sure you take a little aim before you come out with all guns blazing because there's things in this House that can backfire on you very very quickly. Mr.

Speaker, we will be watching with interest over the next few years on how the magicians on that side of the House are going to pull all these funds out of the hat to handle all of these programs they've announced and maintain a budget anywhere close to something that is reasonable and within the possibilities and the bounds of the taxpayers of Manitoba to handle. Mr.

Speaker, I am looking forward with great inter est to the Budget presentation and I hope I will have an opportunity at that time to make a further contribution as we will when we get into Estimates and have a chance to examine the Department of Natural Resources' Estimates and various others. I might add, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that some of the Debate may not be as prolonged in examining the Estimates this year as it may be next year, but we will just have to see how the Estimates are presented and where the funds are going to disappear -( Inter jection)- and as my friend says, we'll play it by ear. Mr.

Speaker, thank you very much for your patience. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON.ALVIN H. MACKLING (St.James): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to address the honourable member elected as the New Democratic member for this Constituency of St. Vital as Mr. Speaker. You wear the cap well, Sir, and, while you are missed in Caucus, we value you as a fair and sincere adjudicator of legis lative debate and know that you will be fair and dili gent to protect the rights of all of the members of this House. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to join our colleagues on both sides of the House who have commended the Mover and Seconder of the motion before us, the Honour able Member for The Pas and the Honourable Member for Burrows, for the compelling sincerity and excel lence of their remarks. I also, Mr. Speaker, wish to join the chorus of praise and non-partisan salute to our female colleagues in this House, seven in number. Not only are we fortu nate to have such able women with us, it marks a turn of political will in the Province of Manitoba that I hope will never be reversed.

Before going further, lest some friendly wag on the opposite side not notice, I am standing. Mr. Speaker, I am reminded of another, I think well loved politician of small physical stature. The story he told -I'm referring to our former National Leader, Tommy Douglas -he told us of a debate which he had with Walter Tucker who was a Liberal, a giant stature, but somewhat less intellectual prowess. He and Tommy were involved in a debate in Weyburn, Sas katchewan.

Walter Tucker who was clearly losing the debate lost his temper and shouted "You're such a little runt I could eat you for breakfast," to which Tommy replied: "Mr. Chairman, while I know my 198 large friend continues to talk nonsense, if he could swallow me he would be a physiological absurdity, because he'd have more brains in his stomach than he had in his head." Mr. Speaker, let me say a few words about my con stituency, St. James.

Bounded on the south by the beautiful Assiniboine River and then Portage Avenue, it runs eastward from Belvidere Street - that's just a little bit beyond the entrance to Assiniboine Park - to Downing Street encompassing the Polo Park Shoppng Centre. Within the heart of my constituency flow two beautiful creeks, Truro Creek and Omands Creek, providing a little bit of green belt relief to our community. Mr. Speaker, I was born on Madison Street, just west of the C.N. tracks.

When I was a lad going to Britannia School our homes on Madison Street were surrounded by prairies on which our beloved crocus bloomed and since dairy cows pastured around us we had other blooms too. St. James is an old historic area. All of my constituency is part of the old settlement west of Fort Garry known as the parish of St. James. It is a consti tuency of vitality, of people young and old in years and in residence in Canada. My mother, of whom I am justly proud, has lived in St. James for over 65 years and at 92 still is a keen follower of political affairs - and she voted for me, Mr. Speaker.

I must resist the temptation to further eulogize my personal family and rather acknowledge with sincere and grateful heart my larger family, my constituents, to whom I pledge my every effort on their behalf. Before turning to things present may I also, Mr. Speaker, record my gratitude to those dedicated democratic socialists who have been our inspiration over the years; who held high the torch of the social gospel when all around them seemed nothing but a dark and selfish gloom. Mr. Speaker, as a boy in St.

James growing up in the Thirties I was a child not only of the depression, I was a pupil of the social gospel of love, compassion and social justice, so profoundly illustrated in the lives of J.S. Woodsworth, Stanley Knowles, Lloyd Stinson and Tommy Douglas, all of whom were or are ordained Ministers. I recall too, the dedication of democratic socialists with whom I have had the privilege of working. People like Donovan Swails, Beatrice Brigden, Charles Bie sick, and from my university days, the late Harry Crowe. Harry ran my first campaign in 1953.

It was a close race and the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, whom I notice isn't with us, will remember my suc cessful opponent, Reg Wightman, a gentleman with whom both Frank and I had -( Interjection)- POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honourable Member for La Verendrye have a point of order? MR. (BOB) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Yes. In the last couple of days heard a number of references by members on the opposite side of the House referring to members being in their seat and not being in their seat and I would ask you to advise what the rules are with regard to that.

Monday, 8 March, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: I think the Honourable Member for La Verendrye and all other members are aware that it is discourteous and not our practice to refer to the pres ence or absence of particular members. The Honourable Minister. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Cont'd.) MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I didn't mean to make reference with any discourtesy because as my notes will later indicate, I have some affection for the Hon ourable Member for Sturgeon Creek but you inter rupted me. I would like to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that the Hon ourable Member for Sturgeon Creek and the late Reg Wightman and, although we were polls apart politi cally, we shared a common joy of community. We all served as Aldermen in the St. James Council. I want to caution my colleagues in caucus that to me at least politics is but a part of life, and politics aside I know that there are old bonds of friendship that cross this Chamber. I'd like to think, Mr. Speaker, that in this Chamber, while we may be polls apart - and you'll pardon the pun - as to how we perceive social justice and how we achieve it, it is nonetheless our common goal.

It will therefore be my intention to facilitate all members of the House whose constituent interest is their concern. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to recognize within this Chamber a growing number of members who are committed to an improved and protected environ ment. It was not always so. How can anyone not be moved to anger by the desolate moonscape appear ance of the lands near Sudbury, or the vile ugly dis charge that poured forth at Dryden as a rape of the beautiful waters of Ontario? I don't know, Mr. Speaker, but it went on and to a much lesser extent continues. Nor should we be smug about Manitoba.

On my first visit to Thompson I stood aghast, not in awe, of a towering smokestack that was spewing tons of pollu tion heavenward. You see with a taller smokestack, Mr. Speaker, you dump your garbage farther from your own doorstep. Mr. Speaker, more and more men and women are demanding an end to wanton reckless pollution car ried out in the name of short-term cost-efficiency; the long-term costs cannot be afforded.

While I have not addressed the subject with my colleagues in Caucus, let me say now that I will be numbered amongst those who will weigh carefully the environmental impact of any industrial development in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Natural Resources, I'd like to say a few words about one of our most plentiful resources, water. Mr. Speaker, this province is not a have-not province, it is blessed with great resourceful people; we do have a great future. Mani toba is the richest of all provinces in Canada, indeed, it is the richest area in the world when we consider our resource of fresh water.

Much talk we hear of oil and gas and potash but little do we evaluate our water. Manitoba, the freshwater basin of western Canada, is blessed with an immense supply of fresh water that not only spins our hydro-electric turbines on its jour ney to the sea, but provides us with unrivalled recrea tional facilities, and an inland fishery that is of ines timable value. 19 9 Today we face a serious threat to our Hudson Bay drainage basin.

The Garrison Project, by diversion of Missouri River waters across a natural divide, could carry biota foreign to our waters into our rivers and lakes with untold irreparable devastation to our fresh water, commercial and sports fisheries. In the days, weeks, months and yes, years ahead, let us all join the fight to keep Missouri water flowing south. It is our intention to enlist the help of all of the people of Manitoba and all of the Members of this House in our battle to protect our heritage.

In the near future I'll be confirming arrangements with the Federal Govern ment to ensure that at that level, too, our fight is co-ordinated to as high a degree as is humanly possi ble. Under those arrangements, we will have people in Washington, paid by Manitobans, acting for us, sup plementing federal and provincial efforts to stop Gar rison. This is not an easy fight. It will be protracted and tough, but together we shall win; for win we must. Mr. Speaker, let me now for a few minutes talk of still another aspect of our water supplies - ground water; water that lies beneath the ground in aquifers.

Recently, Mr. Speaker, I tabled in the House a report commissioned by the Manitoba Water Commission -it's entitled A Review of Ground Water Management in Manitoba. While the print is excessively small the message contained therein is of immense importance. I want to read from Page 4 first, Mr. Speaker, the last paragraph: "The potential demand for the use of ground water in our Province is likely to increase and the full capacity of some major aquifers may be reached.

Proper management policies and tests must be developed to control future trends and insure proper regulations so that this resource is used to its optimum and not lost or polluted for future genera tions. The development of our industrial base will depend upon our ability to ensure that supply and demand are kept in balance." And then the

summary, Mr. Speaker: "The impor tance of ground water as a resource within our Prov ince cannot be overstated. Across North America shortages of water and a loss of water quality are becoming commonplace. Recently a report issued by the Canadian Institute for Economic Policy warned 'the country faces an emerging water crisis.' The depletion of our resources is not an impossibility. A surface spring was reported to have existed at the corner of Portage and Main in the City of Winnipeg not too many years ago. The water table is now down to 40 feet or better below the pavement.

"In view of rapidly changing demands on our water resource it is of greatest urgency that government place top priority on the needs for proper manage ment of this resource. An updating of the pertinent acts, management regulations, with the necessary addition of departmental staff and funding is neces sary to ensure that an adequate supply of unpolluted water will be available for generations to come. "While not being within the terms of our reference, the Commission is greatly concerned about the increasing water pollution. The loss of water quality due to human, animal and chemical waste is alarming.

The monitoring of such effects should be the respon sibility of government to be used as a base for assess ing the encouragement or development of our indus trial base, as well as ensuring a safe future supply of

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 water. Experts are agreed that once a ground water resource has become polluted, the probability of cor recting the situation is extremely low. "The matter of water management is a complex and developing field. To date the resource in Manitoba has not suffered any major setbacks and the Commission is satisfied that provided action is taken now, future management will be set in the right direction to gener ate the full potential of ground water resources." Mr. Speaker, we will be taking action to protect our ground water supply.

As your Minister of Natural Resources it is my inten tion to reflect our common concern to protect our natural environment. I have asked my department to initiate a study of the relationship of ground water reserves and surface water. Some years ago Professor Leonard Sawatzky of the University of Manitoba and I shared our mutual concerns about this subject and the relationship that exists between surface and ground water supplies. Just the previous past weekend, in an

article entitled, "The Browning of North America," Professor Derek Sewell of Victoria, British Columbia, hopefully shocked North Americans with a telling account of what we've been doing with our freshwater heritage. This is an article, Mr. Speaker, that appeared in the Today Mag azine of the Winnipeg Free Press on February 27th, 1982, and I want to read just a short

section of this article. "The evidence of the Browning of America and the fouling of its waters is everywhere. Cleveland's Klea hoga River, blanketed in oil and debris, caught fire a decade ago. The nation's 9th largest river, the Ten nessee, has been so damned that its flow can be turned off as easily as twisting a kitchen tap. Houston, Texas has sunk several feet because so much water has been pumped from underground sources. Thou sands of rural Virginians drink polluted water. In one coal mining town tap water vomits out so thickly that it piles up in the sink.

Throughout Florida, drought and paving have combined to eliminate the great natural sponge of swamps, marshes and floodland that trap the filtered fresh water and replenish natural reser voirs below. Without the water to hold them up under ground limestone caverns in central Florida have started to collapse in a series of sinkholes, including one that swallowed six cars, a house and half a build ing, and yet the Americans remain spendthrifts with their water, using 20 times the amount the British do, double the USSR's use. Between 1955 and 1975, freshwater use increased 160 percent.

Well, you might say, what has that to do with Manitoba? Mr. Speaker, while we in Manitoba are blessed with a seeming abundance of freshwater, there is ample evidence that we are squandering our heritage. We are water wasteful. It is time that here in Manitoba we bagan water-use conservation by requir ing more recycling or more effective recycling of major water use. The demand for ever-increasing amounts of freshwater can be reversed if we begin programs here that are now successfully employed in such high-demand use countries as Japan.

Let me point out that I just recently also tabled the annual reports of our seven conservation boards of Manitoba where municipalities have joined in water shed areas to cope with conservation of their water, 200 soil and forest. You will note throughout the reports the focus that exists in these reports on drainage and soil erosion and the relationships that exist.

For example, on page 16 of that report, Pothole Drainage Study: "A study was under way to establish criteria for draining selected small potholes into larger sloughs on individual parcels of land." We've had a focus for 100 years to drain, drain, drain the surface of the land, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I may be being naive, but I believe that it is self-evident that the draining of marginal wetlands, the clear cutting of forest and the ever larger drainage of surface water to the sea is a growing environmental disaster.

When we clear-cut forested lands we increase erosion, reduce the retention of moisture and burden our countryside with flash flooding. When we com bine these practices with a tax on our wetlands, we exacerbate the problem of building larger and ever larger drains to hurry our fresh surface water off the land. And what is the effects on our ground water supply? Well, we're not certain of that, Mr. Speaker, but it's high time we had a look at that. We must, Mr. Speaker, hasten our efforts to protect our wetlands and increase surface water storage.

We must reverse the attack on surface water and forest cover or pay an environmental penalty of enormous proportions. We must give inducements to farmers to maintain and, in fact, return marginal lands to wet land and forest cover by eliminating assessment on such lands. I hasten to add - these are my personal views, Mr. Speaker - but I hope that they will find favour with my colleagues in government and all who, like me, yearn to leave our natural renewable resources in Manitoba as good or better than when we found them. Mr. Speaker, we are more than resource tenants.

We are resource trustees and owe a duty to mankind to leave behind, not a legacy of waste, mismanagement and polution, but a legacy of conservation, preserva tion and environmental integrity. When this place we leave, for leave we must, Leave us behind this sacred trust, A land so dear, so fine For those unborn who come behind. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak on the Throne Speech Debate and I want to thank the member opposite for the lovely flower which reminds me somewhat of a sunflower and, of course, the sunflower, I'll try and touch on it briefly in my comments about Manitoba and some of the develop ment that has taken place. However, I would like to start off in the usual tradi tion, Mr. Speaker, by again congratulating you in your position as Speaker of the House.

I am sure that we, when we were on the other side of the House, had an individual who was supported by our side and by who is now the government and then the opposition, a very impartial and excellent individual in the Chair as well. I, Mr. Speaker, as well want to congratulate and compliment those individuals who were successful in achieving the position of becoming MLA 's, members to represent their constituencies. There is a fairly heavy responsibility that goes with that. I'm sure that

Monday, 8 March, 1982 members in the Chamber wi ll not take their jobs lightly. It is a heavy commitment as far as giving up somewhat of your family life which, I know has been spoken to by many individua ls here how important their family life and their home life is to them. That, of course, is a sacrifice, that not in all cases but particu larly those members from The Pas and from Dauphin, it is a contribution that is a little bit tougher to live up to and a job that is a little more strenuous than what they may realize at this particular time.

To my colle agues whom I served on Treasury Branch with and the members who are not back on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, may I say I was indeed pl eased to have served a term in office, a term in Manitoba, which I thought was somewhat of a chal lenge but also somewhat of a gold en opportunity for the people of Manitoba. However, Mr. Speaker, I think we have to also be very straightforward when we talk about reall y what the difference is between the Party who are now in government and some of the beliefs and the thoughts in which we had as a government.

As we ll I should at this part of my speech also say that we too in the Arthur Constituency, are having some 100 cele brations this year - the Town of Oak Lake and Griswold.

Of course, Oak Lake was fairly well headlined several years ago with the hostage taking incident and the tragic events that took place there with the RCMP; and we have Griswold, Hartney, the Arm of Cameron and I should compliment the Town of Souris which is now in my constituency - it had a tremendous 1 OOth birthday cele bration last year as we ll as the home of the Mel Logan Rink who we want to again wish we ll in the pla ydowns that are taking place in Brandon. Mr.

Speaker, when we look at what the difference in the Party opposite who are now in government and some of the be liefs that I think in which a democracy works, I be lieve, Mr. Speaker, that under the New Democratic or the NDP or, I think, what they' ll be more commonly known as in the coming years in office, as the No Develo pment Party. I think there are some pretty basic signs starting to set in and I think that that wi ll be more of the kind of meaning that it wi ll leave with the people of Manitoba than what they now call themselves as a New Democratic Party. I be lieve, Mr.

Speaker, and I think I'm correct when I say this, that the philosophy of the New Democratic or the No Develo pment Party, which I will refer to them from now on, the No Devel opment Party believes that it is a government that should control the peop le. There has been evidence of it in their recent announce ments, the Throne Speech, it certainly fleshes out and points out directly that that is their be lief; the govern ment know more than the peop le and that they should direct the people;

whereas, Mr. Speaker, my belief in a democratic system, that the peop le control the government. The government is control led by the people who ele ct those people and that is the kind of a democracy in which I think the Province of Manitoba has deve loped, the country of Canada has developed and unfortunately we have seen an individual in Ottawa by the name of Pierre El liott Trudeau who has had too much the same kind of belief as the members oppo site, pretty much a hands-on-the-people-type direc- 201 tive, Mr. Speaker, somewhat a be liever in contro ll ing the people. Mr.

Speaker, tonight I would like to touch on two basic areas and they are pretty much interrelated and that, of course, being the economy which we are all , I am sure, very much concerned of the problems of the peop le who are in small business; the fact that the interest rates have gone to some exorbitant rates which puts everyone in an extremely difficult position; the fact that we have an energy crisis, or we have had an energy crisis in this country, which of course, has given a fueled inf lation and given us a very difficu lt time in trying to cope with powering our machines or producing the kind of economic development that this country deserves.

Mr. Speaker, in talking about the economy, first of all , let me just go back and look at some of things and the develo pments that are taking pla ce and I, at this particular time, don't feel that it is important to get into some of the more mega project deve lopments that were being talked about by our government, but let us talk about some of the real things that happened and what we were doing to encourage the private sector.

Because, again, I think we have to be prepared to rely on the private sector to really have the initiative and the incentive to go ahead and do those things that are going to pay for the social programs that the No Develo pment Party are pla nning on putting in place and, I hope, Mr. Speaker, to get into and ela borate a little bit more on their ManOil proposal. When I am speaking about the economy, Mr. Speaker, and some of the real things that were taking pla ce under our administration - and I am very proud of them because, I think, they rel ated very much to people.

Let's talk about what happened in my col league's constituency in Minnedosa where we saw Canada's first Gasohol pla nt started. When did that particular facility cl ose down? That cl osed down under the years of the Schreyer administration, they lost their job opportunities in Minnedosa when the disti ll ery was operating prior to us getting into office.

We went to work, not only ourselves but the people in he private sector went to work, but before they could go to work we had to create an economic environment in this province that encouraged them to invest their money to get back into the production of alcohol at that pla nt. -(In terjection)- And the Member for Thompson laughs. When did the development take place at the Port of Churchi ll -( Interjection)- That's right we 'll get into that too, but when did the expan sion of the Thompson mine take pl ace? During the years of the Schreyer government? No, Mr.

Speaker, during the years of a Conservative Government, and I would, at this particular time, like to pay a compliment to the Member for Thompson who made a tremend ous contribution to this province and to this House in any debate - and I would hope the member opposite can carry out the kind of a mandate which he was given from the peop le of Thompson.

Our coll eague for Thompson went to the people at a very severe time when there was a strike, and I am sure that the member sitting over there now has to really look back on how he got here and, I think, it is pretty much a time in the history that when it comes around again, if there isn't a strike, that that individual wi ll be right back in there and he wi ll be back in this House.

Monday, 8 March, 1982 Mr. Speaker, when we are talking about some of the developments, that took place during our administra tion, to do directly with the economic development; let us look at what is happening at Harrowby, Manitoba, where we are seeing Manitoba Pool Elevators and Saskatchewan Wheat Pool investing some $40 million to build an oilseed crushing plant. Why are they build ing it in western Manitoba? Because they had confi dence in the farming community, they had confidence to invest.

They are private individuals, they aren't state-owned or company-owned, and for the member the other evening when he spoke about it was a Con servative Government; it was a Conservative Govern ment that had the first grain company in Company, it was a government-owned organization. Yes, and that government organization lost money and they turned it over to the farmers of this Province to operate, pri vate sector, and that is what farmers are, they are private businessmen, and don't try and replace them with state-operated farms because I will indicate to you the success of the Polish farm operations in Poland.

Why are the people in Poland hungry? Because they have a state-controlled system. The efficiency of that country is defeated, the people are defeated because, again, as I said, your belief in a democratic system is the government controlling the people,

whereas I believe the people should control the government. Mr. Speaker, the example that has to be again used, and I want to use it at this particular time, because there are the nay-sayers in society who would believe that because we are using food, or because the people in Minnedosa are using food or food products, to produce alcohol to produce automotive or engine power to grow grain in the fields, immediately they stand up and say why would you use food? I am sure the Minister of Consumer Affairs would say, well why would you use food that is valuable for the people to eat?

Well, you know, just a little bit of history, back in the 1920's in this country 20 percent of the acreage in North America was used to produce oats to produce horsepower to feed the people of this country and the world. That was real horsepower, so nothing has changed we are just using a different method and the objective has to be to create another source of energy which is so important to the people, not only in the farm community but the people who drive up to the gas pumps. Have you heard what the increase in sales of the Mohawk Gasohol they are selling? Increased by 400 percent.

Has that not meant more jobs for the people that are pouring the product at the pumps; has it not meant more jobs for those people who are sup plying services to those people in Minnedosa. That is what economic development is all about. It didn't need the government to take the people's money through tax dollars, as we are seeing of PetroCan, and put it into a resource that is being developed without the government doing that. Let us talk about ManOil for a minute, and you know that it is directly related to my area.

I think the Member for Minnedosa is somewhat correct when he said that ManOil is just to grease the left wings of the people opposite. I will challenge the members opposite but I bet you that they don't get enough! oil out of it to grease the left wing of the First Minister of this Pro- 202 vince. The oil development, let's just take a look at oil development in Canada, how many more layers of taxation do we have to place on the people of Mani toba, at the pumps or anywhere else, to pay for such state-owned organizations. The people of Manitoba are paying for PetroCan, for Petrofina, they have no choice.

And now you will be expecting them to pay, and ManOil is the next move to encourage the munic ipal governments of this province to get into the oil business. You know, we talk about sharing the wealth of the southwest corner. We know that Omega Oil have gone in and done quite a nice job of developing the oil fields of Waskada and there is a good development taking place there. If you as citizens of Manitoba want to participate in that, you can buy Omega shares, you can buy new scope, you can buy all the oil shares you want and participate in that way.

They aren't taking the people's oil and they aren't abusing the system. You have the right as a government to tax in any way, to tax in any way those people who are in business. If you think you need more money as a government tax them but don't overburden the people at the gas pumps; those people who are pensioners living in homes that are heated with gas. Don't charge those people undue taxes which they can't afford to pay. They're already doing it through Petrocan and Petrofina. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that there is some hangup about the members opposite about private individuals being allowed to accomplish something on their own. You know, there's a jealousy that they're doing some thing that I as an individual can't do. That's the free dom that brought us to this country. That's the free dom that we're fighting for and you're turning the whole world upside down. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. If the honourable member would direct his remarks in the direction of the microphone on his desk, all members would more clearly hear what he is saying. MR. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly want to make sure that everyone hears it and I will definitely speak directly to the microphone. Mr. Speaker, there's another area when we're talk ing about energy but I think it's very important that the people of Manitoba think back and are prepared to compare about what has happened, what we did and what the future holds for of course one of our major resources that this province has and I'm pleased that the Minister of Resources has talked about water because it really is a most important resource that this country has.

Of course, the development of our Hydro is something that I as a Manitoban and the rest of the people of this province I'm sure, want to see handled properly. Well, Mr. Speaker, we didn't hear too many people talk about the Hydro rate freeze during the campaign. We didn't hear any suggestion, as we've heard since that, that that might have to be adjusted. Mr. Speaker. I think we are about to see from the members opposite some kind of change take place. They're not going to live up to any commitments that they made during the campaign.

In fact, there are a lot of surprises to come that I think the people of Manitoba better be prepared

Monday, 8 March, 1982 to come to grips with. I know a lot of people because they had a five-year rate freeze in Hydro, installed electric furnaces in their homes; installed them because they had the confidence in the government to live up to programs that were put in place. I challenge the First Minister who likes to go out and make prom ises, I challenge him if he's going to speak, to tell the people today that he's going to live up to the Hydro rate freeze that is in place. I challenge him to do that, Mr.

Speaker, and extend it not only live up to it but extend it because people are putting in place heat ing fixtures or furnaces that are tying them into high investments and they believe that Hydro is a resource that they can depend on and should have available to them at a reasonable cost. I won't even get into the pre-Conservative years but I do believe it's something that they do owe the people of Manitoba, to tell them where they stand.

Of course, I think it's important that the - and I'll just go back to ManOil for a minute because it does have somewhat of a very interesting time for them to introduce it at a particular time when we're seeing world oil prices start to go down, start to decrease, we're seeing this government here today with some kind of a hangup about wanting to get into the oil business. Mr. Speaker, I think that they should take a pretty hard long look at it before they take the taxpayers' money and that's what they'll be doing. I think that they, Mr.

Speaker, should take a long hard look at the cost benefit because from what I have heard they are immediately going to start taking the profits and putting them into some kind of programs that they've introduced. Maybe they're going to increase the welfare by another 16.5 percent, you know the real productive group in society. I think maybe they should take a real hard look at it before they enter into the ManOil business because it is being developed very nicely and I think the people of southwest Manitoba would thank the First Minister to keep his ideas just where he found them. Mr.

Speaker, we hear so much about the nice government approach to Ottawa, you know as if we had that poisonous atmosphere, we couldn't accomp lish anything. Mr. Speaker, I can go down quite a long list of accomplishments that took place in the last four years and I hope they are carried forward. Some things we weren't heard on, Mr. Speaker, but some things we were. Mr. Speaker, I'll again refer to a meeting that was held by the Federal and Provincial Ministers of Agri culture in Brandon some two years ago. At that par ticular time, Mr.

Speaker, agriculture was not on a top priority list for the use of energy to produce food. Mr. Speaker, that was a concern of mine; it was a concern of the Ministers of Agriculture from all over Canada and we hosted a meeting, Mr. Speaker, and we were heard by the Federal Government and we now have agriculture on a top priority list for the production of food. Mr. Speaker, for the First Minister to say that it was a poisonous attitude and nothing happened, is totally wrong. But let me tell him something else.

I think it's pretty important to know that you think the people of Mani toba should trust Pierre Elliott Trudeau, a Prime Min ister who shoved metric down our throats? Does he 203 support a Prime Minister that does that? I would like the First Minister to go on the record and say what he thinks about metric. I just wonder where he really stands on the metric issue. Mr. Speaker, what did I say for the past four years? The Department of Agriculture put out a report that came across these desks in all of metric. You check last year's; it went back to the metric and the imperial both.

I was very much opposed to singling out metric and living under a metric system because we are in a time in our economy, Mr. Speaker, where the people cannot afford - the Minister of Consumer Affairs should know this - the people who are buying the food, the farmers who are producing it cannot afford the additional cost of putting in metric scales. If they don't put them in, Mr. Speaker, they'll go to jail or they'll have to pay $1 ,000 fine. Who voted for that in the House of Commons, Mr. Speaker? Nobody did and let me tell you how that got through.

That got through the same way as they're trying to put the bill through that the Conservatives are holding up parlia ment for right now; it was never debated. What all is tied to the Energy Bill at this particular time and where are the New Democrats standing defending the peo ple of this country? They haven't said one word in Ottawa. Where do they stand on this? That same very New Democratic Party, Mr. Speaker - No Develop ment Party, Mr. Speaker-that brought in the motion. They brought in the motion to upset the Joe Clark Government but they brought in another motion. I'll be interested, Mr.

Speaker, to see how the Member for Brandon West votes on something like this. By the way, speaking of the Member for Brandon West, he doesn't speak for the people of Southwest Manitoba like he led us to believe in this House, Mr. Speaker. I don't believe he speaks for the Member for Turtle Mountain. I don't believe he speaks for the Member for Minnedosa. Mr. Speaker, let us go back to one other thing that the No Development Party voted out, you know, and here we have the No Development Party trying to protect the rights of farmers against the change in the Crow Rate.

You know, they're the great defenders, the great protectors of the farm community. That same No Development Party, and the Member for Dauphin and anyone that are there from the rural community, and anybody that has a house, they defeated the amendment for the people of Canada to own property in our Constitution. It was the No Develop ment Party that wouldn't support the Conservatives in the introduction of the right to own property in our Constitution. Let them stand up and put their piece on the record. Does the Member for Dauphin, does he support the right to own property so the farmers can own their land? Mr.

Speaker, he's a member of a party; he's a member of a party that voted against that. The Member for Springfield; it will be interesting to see how he comes forward on this thing because he, in fact, represents a part of a rural community. And it isn't only the farmers; it's the homeowners. Certainly he takes that greedy attitude that a lot of politicians do. -( Interjection)- The member, said, "He's got his home." What about the people that haven't and want it? -( Interjection)- Oh, they'll get it, he says. We should touch on one other area. I wonder how much time I have left, Mr. Speaker? Could you

Monday, 8 March, 1982 indicate to me? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member has 15 minutes. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to get into a cou ple of other areas and I think it is important that we do that and I think it's certainly time to do that when we talk about the No Development Party and some of the things that they stand for or what they don't stand for. You know, it is interesting that the First Minister couldn't even speak to the Amendment that we intro duced, so I guess we would take from it that he sup ports it.

It is quite an interesting situation that has developed that he is, again, trying to be all things to all people. But I would like to, Mr. Speaker, again go back to the issue of ownership because I do believe that the people of rural Manitoba, particularly those people who want to own their homes, should have that. We talk we're in the days of rights, everybody thinks they have to have their rights written down.

Well that was one right that I think was pretty much important to the people of Manitoba and I think the members opposite, after four years of the No Development Party, will be challenged time and time again as to what their beliefs are in this particular area. Mr. Speaker, we've seen very little action come from the Department of Agriculture, and I do want to spend a few minutes on it. I'll go back to a person who, I think, is well respected by many Manitobans, and cer tainly by me.

After becoming Minister of Agriculture he dropped into my office and he said, "Jim, I think you're doing not a bad job," and I said, "How do you tell?" It was D.L. Campbell, who I think we all have some respect for, and he said, "Well, as long as the No Development Party and the agriculture critic are against what you're doing," he said, "I think you're doing a pretty good job." I took that as some pretty sound advice and I do think that he was a good man and he did have some good advice. I think we should get into a little bit of the area, Mr.

Speaker, of some of the lack of policy, or statements on policy, that we hear corning from the Minister of Agriculture. You know, I could get into the whole area of transportation and the debate on that but I under stand that the members opposite are introducing a Resolution which will be interesting to see just how they come out on it when we seethe Minister of Munic ipal Affairs travelling throughout Manitoba espousing their policy, but yet we haven't seen it in the House.

We've heard of these reports of him going to all these meetings but we still haven't been told, either by the First Minister or the Minister of Municipal Affairs, really what their policy is. We're told there's a Resolu tion but yet we haven't seen anything so we're all in a guessing game. I think there is a time, Mr. Speaker, when they will have to take the bull by the horns and look him straight in the eye. Mr.

Speaker, we haven't heard, in fact my comments on the Throne Speech will be, as far as agriculture is concerned, is that it's obvious by its absence of any thing they're doing, any new or any positive direction. I'll go again back to some of the statements that were made by the Minister of Agriculture, and that was some time ago when the Canadian Wheat Board had made a policy change on the selling of Canadian feed 204 grain to eastern Canada.

We had been requesting that for several months, to have that changed so that the farmers of Western Canada didn't have to sell their grain for less money to the consumers in Eastern Canada than what they could achieve at an interna tional market, in fact, removing what was called a corn-competitive price. And I want to commend the Canadian Wheat Board for taking that stand. But what did we have the Minister of Agriculture doing? Chal lenging and chastising the Canadian Wheat Board for backing off on their policy, for not moving ahead. Mr.

Speaker, I think it's time to compliment the Wheat Board for making that initial step. And the reason that he chastised them, I believe, is that he didn't under stand the whole issue; that it was a matter of working out an agreeable solution to those purchasers. But we just heard a chastising of the Canadian Wheat Board for backing off, no alternative or any solution that might be acceptable. Mr. Speaker, that to me is an unacceptable approach.

Another area that I think should be followed up, and I would hope he would, and I again refer to energy because energy is a pretty major part of the farm production cost today, in fertilizer, in fuel. And one of the things, Mr. Speaker, that we were requesting of the Federal Government was not to put more energy tax on the farm community, but to remove the PetroCan and the Petrofina tax from the farm community because farmers are energy producers. Mr.

Speaker, the response to the members in the House was, cer tainly we didn't have a "No" from the Federal Govern ment, but they were certainly listening to us and I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial Minister of Agriculture would again re quest, seeing as the First Minister has such a nice smooth pipeline to Ottawa, I would hope that they would follow up on that and eliminate, or request the elimination, of PetroCan and Petrofina taxes on the farm community because farmers are energy producers and adding to the over all supplies that we have. Mr.

Speaker, I want to again talk on another industry in the agriculture community that I think had some positive things happen in the past four years. I really want to say that I think that the Minister of Agriculture, at this particular time in the Province of Manitoba, should come forward to the dairy industry at this par ticular time and give it some sense of direction, seeing that he likes to do that, he's a hands-on-Minister, they're a hands-on-government, and get involved. You know, what did we hear from the Minister of Industry and Commerce or Economic Development when we saw four cheese plants close?

What did we hear from the Minister of Agriculture when it was going to cost the dairy producers more money to transport their milk and their jobs into Saskatchewan? Again, Mr. Speaker, they were obvious by their absence in even caring about the dairy industry in this province. Mr. Speaker, I think it's incumbent upon this Minis ter of Agriculture and the Minister of Economic Development to get involved and to straighten out any problems that have been created because of his lack of care it's going into disarray; the whole dairy indus try is about to break down. Where does he stand, Mr.

Speaker, on the two-price issue of milk in this province, an issue which we were dealing with, Mr. Speaker, as a government? But we

Monday, 8 March, 1982 haven't heard anything. Mr. Speaker, I think that the Minister of Agriculture's honeymoon should be over pretty soon. I would think thatthe Premier should start to pressure his Minister of Agriculture to come for ward with a little bit of positive development for the farm community, because let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the farm community has never undergone such pressure as it has undergone in the last two to three months and is facing, Mr. Speaker -(lnterjection) thank you very much, we had some positive develop ments taking place in the last four years.

But the eco nomic conditions of the farm community today are very difficult and the program, Mr. Speaker, that we're seeing introduced as an interest-relief program is a Mickey Mouse program. Any farmer, Mr. Speaker, who has not got a gross income of more than $70,000 has been in a lot of difficulty anyway, but it is those people that need help. It's our larger farmers. Our smaller farmers certainly need some assistance and support, but the majority of farmers that are having a financial difficulty are those larger producers who produce the larger percentage of our products in this province. Mr.

Speaker, I can't understand why they are so reluctant to make a positive move. You know, I'll go back to a press release that I see the First Minister put out prior to the election, it is quite interesting. I shouldn't really quote him but I'll give roughly the thing he said. He had met some of the farmers in his constituency and Mr. Pawley gave the farmers his assurance that an NOP Government would come to their aid quickly note the word "quickly" with an income assurance program, with an income assur ance program similar to Saskatchewan's. He's going to move quickly.

Here's the real caption I don't mean by that, dragging it into months and into years," he said. So, Mr. Speaker, here again he's on the record of having made a commitment. But time is slipping by, time is slipping by, Mr. Speaker. I think it's incumbent upon the First Minister of this province to come out of the woods. Maybe he's brushcutting there. I think it is incumbent upon him. Mr. Speaker, I would like to again go back to another joint federal provincial program that - not a program but efforts put forward by our government -and that of course is a meeting we held in Dauphin.

I'm sure the member there would like to speak to this at sometime. We saw, following that meeting, an increase in the use of the Port of Churchill by about double what the Canadian Wheat Board had projected. Yes, Mr. Speaker, because we showed the people of Can ada, we showed the people of Manitoba that it was an important point. I challenge the First Minister and his Member for Churchill, I challenge them today, to increase it by as many times as that Port will handle the bushels. It should handle some 50 million bushels a year.

I think that's a good challenge for the Member for Churchill and the First Minister to put forward -( Interjection)- How many tonnes is that? Well I'm really not a metric person and I think probably to convert would take me far too long. I would like to just conclude, Mr. Speaker, by again going back and making a comparison between what we see happening in the private sector and what we see happening in the state-owned farms in Poland. I 205 think it pretty much is told to the people of Manitoba and to Canada today when we look at our T.V.s.

Poland is a good example as I indicated and I will refer to my notes just briefly. I've tried not to read my speech. I had it all well prepared here but I'll just deviate to my notes. One might consider in Poland as an example of the productivity of the private versus the state-owned enterprises. Official figures support the farmers' claim that they are more efficient than the state co-operatives despite the special attention that's paid to the state-owned farms.

Official figures show state farms use three times more fertilizer than private farms, three times more fertilizer than private farms to produce the same yield. Polish state farms have one worker for every 22 acres and costs in the state sector average about $260 U.S. higher per acre than the private farms. At ploughing time - and this is an interesting figure - last year, 16 percent of the state-owned tractors were out of service due to lack of parts. The tractor plant in Warsaw was supposed to produce some 55,000 tractors last year, but by mid-No vember it turned out 14,000, Mr. Speaker.

Private farmers in Poland may wait as long as 10 years for a tractor and may eventually buy a used one from a state agency for twice the cost of a new one. The result is that many of the private farmers use horses and still outproduce the state-equipped farms. The point has to be made, Mr. Speaker, that individ ual freedom, incentive and reward are what make the economy flourish; it'll make this province flourish.

And the No Development Party, I think, during the next four years - because you've already started to move yourselves out of office because you've intro duced all those things that are going to control the people that generate the wealth. I would like to touch on rent control for one minute because I believe it's important.

The minute you bring in a rent control to stop people from building houses, the minute you bring that kind of legislation forward, you immediately restrict the people that are working in the sawmills, the people that are trucking the wood, the people that are generating the wealth and the resources to build those houses. It's a full circle and remember there isn't any big hungry hand that's tak ing out money that shouldn't be in. If it is taking it out, the governments have the ability to tax them. When can you people understand that that's what you are in government for!

Don't get into the business and kill the very goose that lays the golden egg. Don't do it because, as I have indicated, I would watch it very carefully. You have made your first moves to move yourselves out of office and I will predict the members and I will challenge the members who are sitting in the backbench who want to do things in their consti tuency and they're told by the Treasury Bench, I'm sorry, we haven't got any money. Eight years ago, when you got into office, there was some money around, but today before you do any of your ideas or introduce any of your programs you have to tax the people.

You have to tax the people and you have to go back to your constituents, I know I have been here for four years, you have to go back and justify the decisions that are made by your Treasury Bench and I am somewhat interested, I am going to be interested in the approach the members opposite

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 have in four years. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA KER: The Hono urable Member for Wolseley. MS. MYRNA A. PHILLIPS (Wolseley): I would like to begin by adding my congratulations to you, Mr. Speaker, on your appointment. Much has been said about your qualifications for that high position and I wish to add my hearty endorsement to your selection. I also wish to add my support to the Member from Flin Flon on his appointment as your Deputy.

I wish to take this opportunity to humbly thank my constit uents, the voters of Wolseley, for bestowing on me the hono ur of representing them in this House, and I also wish to publicly express my appreciation to my Leader who spent so much time with us during the recent campaign. To my constitu ents, I pledge to uphold the faith and trust they have placed in me through our deliberations here over the next four years.

I would also like to thank the Leader of the Opposi tion, when he chose to do what he thought was best for his party rather than what was best for the people of Wolseley by now calling a by-election but instead appointing or annointing the former Member for St. Matthews to take care of us, he virtually assured that I would be the first NOP member ever elected from the constituency of Wolseley. On this the 74th anniversary of International Women's Day, I would like to extend warm wishes to my six sisters present. We have always been told that a woman's place is in the House, so here we are.

I will take the liberty of accepting, on behalf of my sisters, the accolades given to us over the past week on achieving a place in this Chamber. None of us are token women, however we also want to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that we are not content that there are only seven of us here. Considering women make up 52 percent of the pop ulation of our province we will not rest until we make up 52 percent of the represe ntation in this Chamber. "For chivalry," and our greeting has been most chi valrous, "is however a poor substitute for justice," to quote Nellie McClung.

As I am sure my colleag ue the Member for Rupertsland will conc ur, there is no such thing as being half-equal, or just-about-equal or sort of-equal - so the challenge for all of us and the burden on our shoulders is to work hand-in-hand until economic, social and political equality is a fact of life, a fail accompli, for all the women in our consti tuen cies and in the Province of Manitoba.

When women have achieved the equal right to choose employment and family as our brothers have and take for granted not one or the other, when women are not bur dened with the entire responsibility for reproduction in our society and care for children, when women achieve equal renumeration for the val ue of their work in the labour force rather than 58 percent of what their male counterparts earn, when women have equal access to the halls of power in labour, business and politics; then, arid only then, Mr. Speaker, will we rest.

Therefore, I was most delighted to hear our Lieutenant-Governor read a Throne Speech which 206 enunciated policy, which outlined significant advance ment towards that goal. Many of my colleag ues have referred to the eco nomic thrust our government will pursue. I won't elaborate on that but wish the thrust for social pro grams the Throne Speech outlined and how this direc tion will benefit my constitu ents as well others throughout the province. Wolseley is a constituency of extremes; extreme wealth and extreme poverty.

A recent study of inner city schools noted that in our schools approximately 50 percent of the children were from single-parent homes. The average income of families was almost the lowest in the city. For the past two years I have canvassed door-to-door, their poverty is real to me and directs all the work I do. The recent newspaper articles highlighted such Wolseley apartments as the Waldorf. The critical issues for my people are jobs and ho using. Mr.

Speaker, differing from the members opposite, who can callously follow policies advocating welfare is cheaper, I intend to fight and argue and press ure with all my energy to ensure that each person's right to adequate housing and a real opportunity for train ing and employment is achieved. To ensure this I am honoured that our Premier appointed me Legislative Assistant to our Minister of Urban Affairs to assist with the employment and training programs of the core area initiative project.

I am also pleased to be the Legislative Assistant to the Minister of Community Services to develop our community child daycare centres. For to make employment opportunities real, to make the possibility to go beyond a lifetime of social assistance, the availability of childcare is imperative. The reality is that 60 percent of married Manitoba women are in the labour force. There are only 6,000 licensed childcare spaces in Manitoba, while there are estimated to be 15 ,000 preschool children in unli censed care. Where are these children?

Our duty is to do everything in our power to ensure the family is supported, but what is the definition of a family. Is there only those stereotyped nuclear fami lies with a father who leaves in the morning for work in his station wagon, leaving mother at home with their two-and-a-half children. This idealized version, Mr. Speaker, is no longer the norm. But that does not meant that groups with or without two parents living together are not operating as families and do not deserve our support. They also deserve support servi ces to ensure their survival as healthy units to raise and nurture children. So, Mr.

Speaker, the availability of childcare of a quality necessary for the healthy emotional and social development of our children has to be a priority as a support for the families of the '80s, '90s and into the 21s t Century. I also welcome the announcements concerning amendments to our family law legislation. With 80 percent of elderly women in our province, and I met many of them in my constituency, living in poverty, I welcome, Mr. Speaker, the re-inclusion of pensions as family assets and sharing of the same upon divorce.

Again, I would like to thank the Leader of the Oppo sition and his former government, when they emascu lated, and there was no other term that I could find,

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 alth ough that might be cal led a sexist term. what was acknowledged across Canada as the best family law legislation in the country. They coal esced as never before the voting patterns of women in this province. so I want to thank them. The announcement of rent regulation and the exten sion of Pharmacare are also most we lcomed by myself and my constituents. Mr. Speaker. I would like to speak briefly about my background. and it's interesting fol lowing the former Minister of Agriculture's statements.

I was raised on a small farm in south central Manitoba . in fact, only twelve or so miles from where the Member for Pem bina resides. We in our community were brought up in an atmosphere of co-operation. Farmers shared equip ment. helped out neighbours who were in trouble. worked together col lective ly to ensure everyone got their crops sowed and reaped, and I'm not quite sure why he turned out right and I turned out left. Farms were small; a quarter. a half or one

section and al though few were wealthy most provided a happy adequate living standard. In the last 1 o. 15 years or so. I have watched small farms squeezed out by large corporte landowners. both foreign and local. This control of farmlands in the hands of the few affect every consumer of food in my constituency. I then lived for 12 years in Brandon where all my children were bo rn. I feel the survival of our smal ler cities and towns is most important to the life of our province. I therefore we lcomed the Main Street Mani toba Program that the Throne Speech announced.

I also spent several years in the north of our prov ince. I know the fears. frustrations and poverty of our one-industry towns and Native communities. I know from working in ten northern centres the necessity of encouraging and al lowing northern residents to achieve their aspirations of self-d etermination and economic sel f-sufficiency. If we in the south insist on either a policy of neglect or one of contro l. we have to bear that cost. The cost ends up on our education system. our health care system. and on the immigra tion to the core of the city.

I am proud to be a member of a government that insists on taking a pla nned approach to the Manitoba economy . to weave together a policy of develo ping the resources of our province to provide social necessities for each citizen. Thank you very much and happy International Women's Day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Swan River. MR. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker. I'm very happy to have the oppor tunity to speak on the amendment to the main motion. However. before I get down to any formal com ments.

I would like to take this opportunity, as many others have done in this Chamber. to recognize the new Speaker and to congratulate him. I've had the opportunity to serve with the Member for St. Vital since 1977 and I know that he is already fulfil ling his job as Speaker very well and I'm sure that we all wish him well in the role ahead; he wi ll have a very difficult time from time to time. I'm sure. I would also take this opportunity to congratulate the Deputy Speaker, the MLA for Flin Flon. on his role 207 as Deputy Speaker.

I take this opportunity as we ll to recognize and congratulate the Mover and the Seconder of the Throne Speech Debate. the MLA for The Pas. who I might add origi nall y is a constituent of the Swan River Constituency and certainly welcome the member for The Pas to the Legislative Assembly. Also. the Seconder of the Throne Speech. the Member for Bur rows. I thought the Mover and Seconder did a very adequate job in moving and seconding the Throne Speech. Of course .

I would be remiss if I didn't congratulate all of the MLA 's that have either been re-e lected or the new MLA's that are here for the first time. including the seven ladies that are all new to the Legislature and I'm sure that we all greatly appreciate - they enhance our surroundings very much. I would say that I was quite interested in the Throne Speech. I thought that it covered a wide range of topics. I'm sure that most of the areas covered wi ll initia ll y appeal to many of the people in the Province of Manitoba.

Just without really making an effort you can come up with about some 20 or 24 areas that wi ll be costing quite a bit of money; the Interest Relief Program, I think which has been indicated wi ll initia ll y cost $23 million over a two-year period; dental aids; eyeg lasses; the freeze on tuition fees. Also the last speaker made reference to the Main Street Manitoba Program and I would just like to take a moment to speak about Main Street Manitoba Program. I am particularly interested in this program. having served as the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

There is a lot of interest throughout Manitoba in this program and members that were here last year wi ll reca ll that we passed the necessary le gislat ion enabling govern ments to proceed on this type of program. When the el ection campaign was under way we heard the prom ise there would be some $1.5 mil lion allo cated to Main Street Manitoba. and you know you don't have to be a chartered accountant to figure out that $1 .5 mil lion is not going to go very far.

If I can just take a moment to te ll you about the Community Services Contribution Program which was initiated by the Federal Government some three years ago. There was some $17 mil lion put into the CSCP by the Federal Government and this was admin istered in the province by the Department of Munici pal Affairs. and this was an interim program to serve the needs of Manitoba as far as it would go for a two-year period until a longer range program could be put into place to be funded by the Federal Govern ment.

After the two years was up the Federal Govern ment abruptl y said. we ll. we're going to scrap that program. In the meantime. I had met - I know a number of my colle agues that were in Cabinet- with I would say six or seven of the cities and larger vil lages in Manitoba. You take the City of Brandon. the City of Thompson - not so much Thompson Flin Flon. Portage la Prairie.

Dauphin; for instance, the City of Fl in Flon last year came up with a shopping list that they wi ll require some $1 5 mill ion in the next three or four. five years to renovate their water and sewer pro gram. to develop new subdivisions for a shortage of housing in Flfn Fl on. The City of Brandon. the downtown core area. again I met with the Mayor and some of the Brandon

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 officials. where a major renovation program will have to take place with the sewer and water in the down town core area of Brandon. This is not Main Street Manitoba I am talking about, this is major undertak ings by these cities that will require mil li ons and mil lio ns of dollars, and I only cite the example of Flin Flon and Brandon, I know Portage la Prairie has some major expenditures that they have already undertaken, but they still have a long way to go, it is going to cost several millio ns of dollars there to complete the job and the list goes on and on.

Now, the Federal Government says they are not going to continue any longer with the CSCP Program. We have been pressing the Honourable Minister, Paul Cosgrove, to re-examine this program to see if more money could not be made available and as far as I know discussions were left open, although it is not very likely that the Feds are prepared to kick through with the numbers and the amounts of money that is required to get on with the water and sewer and the subdivision developments that are required, not only in Manitoba but across Canada as a whole.

So when we speak of Main Street Manitoba with $1. 5 millio n, agreed it is a fine program, but it's too lit tle and cer tainly I think that a lot of the towns and villages and municipalities are going to be really disappointed when their expectations were raised during the elec tion campaign. I would have to congratulate a lot of the speakers during the Throne Speech; I was able to listen to a lot of them and I really enjoyed and thought particularly a lot of the new members really put a big effort into their presentations and they had a lot of good information.

I was particularly del ighted to li sten to the Member for Rupertsland because I think we are witnessing a his torical event whereby the Member for Rupertsland is the first Treaty Indian ever to be el ected in this Legis lature, but I am really concerned for the member because of the pressures that the members opposite have placed on the shoulders of this member.

They have made a lot of promises for the vast northern area of Manitoba. they have made a lot of promises to his people that just can't be fulfilled overni ght, and I am sure that the Member for Rupertsland is going to have a heavy burden on his shoulders when he cannot produce MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order please. In accordance with our Rule 35(3) I am interrupting the proceedings to put the vote on the Amendment to the mem bers.

The question before the House is the question on the Amendment moved by the Honoura ble Leader of the Oppos ition as follows: THAT the Motion be amended by adding to it the following words: But that this House regrets that the Government, by its lack of leader ship, imagination and an overall eco nomic strategy, its fail ure to move ahead with major project negot iations to generate jobs for our people, its disturbing tendencies to centralize authority and its preoccupation with dou btful expend itures of tax payers' dollars to secure public ownership, has ther eby lost the confidence of the citizens of Manito ba.

QUESTION put on the amendment, MOTION defeated. 208 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition. MR. LYON: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. The quest ion before the House is the proposed Amendment by the First Min ister as pre viously read. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Messrs. Banman, Blake, Brown, Downey, Drie dger, Enns, Fil mon, Gourlay, Graham, Mrs. Hammond, Messrs. Hyde, Johnston, Kovnats, Lyon, Manness, McKenzie, Mercier, Nordman, Oleson, Orchard, Ran som, Sherman, Steen. NAYS Messrs.

Adam, Anstett, Ashton, Bucklaschuk, Car roll, Corrin, Cowan, Desjardins, Mrs. Dodick , Ms. Dolin, Messrs. Evans, Eyler, Fox, Harapiuk, Harper, Mrs. Hemphill, Messrs. Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackl ing, Mal inowsk i, Parasiuk, Pawley, Penner, Mrs. Phillips, Messrs. Plohman, Schroeder, Scott, Mrs. Smith, Messrs. Storie, Uruski, Uskiw. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. CLERK, Mr. Jack Reeves: Yeas, 23, Nays, 31. MR. SPEAKER: The Nays have it and the amendment is accordingly lost The motion before the House is the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker , I'm not a veteran of the Manitoba Legislature but it seems to me to be very unusual that we've just - I'm now speaking on the main motion but it's very unusual that the Premier wouldn't take the opportunity to speak on the amendment to defend his government's Throne Speech, the bluepr ints that he's indicated as the plan for the next several months. So, I take it as very strange and it is probably not unprece dented, however, it's certainly a very rare situation when this happens.

Although I'm speaking on the main motion, I would like to continue if I may where I left off a few minutes ago. I was making reference to the Member for Rupertsland and the very onerous task that his own colleagues have placed upon him by the many prom ises and commitments that they have made to people of Northern Manitoba. I think that we all agree that there's a very big job that has to be done. There's a lot of unemployment situations in various communities in the north, including the various Indian reservations in Northern Manitoba, but to change this overnight is almost impossible.

You can't provide government make-work jobs that will give mean ingful employment to these people. It's something that has to be planned

Monday, 8 March, 19 82 over a long period of time and I think that during the four years that we were in power, although there was not a lot of physical evidence of employment improve ment, but we had done a lot as far as the mining exploration, the development of the forestry and other activities in Northern Manitoba, including the career resources to make available training programs and to work with the industry of the North to make sure that preference would be given to hiring of northern people.

Now this doesn't come overnight and it takes a lot of planning and it takes a lot of effort on the part of government, but it doesn't take a lot of - what I should say, government make-work programs doesn't go very far to providing meaningful jobs for very long. Furthermore, make-work government jobs; we just can't afford it in ths province. I know that the Minister of Northern Affairs when he was speaking on the Throne Speech De bate, he made reference to the fact that the negotiations for the new Northlands Agreement is coming along quite nicely.

I am very pleased to hear that and I'm sure that we're all pleased to hear that the new Northlands Agreement will be signed very soon hopefully. He did go on to say there had been quite an extensive consultation pro gram with many organizations and groups from Northern Manitoba, and I would point out that we will be very interested in seeing the new kinds of activities that have been identified by the extensive consulta tion process that has been repeated by the present government. We undertook to have consultation with many of the organizations in Northern Manitoba.

There was a widespread advertisement in newspapers, on the radio, appealing to northerners to bring forward the program activities that they would like to see included in the Northlands Agreement. So, I, as well as my colleagues, will be very inter ested in seeing the types of new activities that were not included in the previous agreement that had been provided to the federal people which they had refused to participate in while we were government up until last fall.

Now, also the Minister of Northern Affairs has indi cated that his government would like to see the 50- odd northern communities get into running their own affairs as completely and as soon as possible. Cer tainly that is commendable area of concern and it's one that I, as Minister of Northern Affairs, was inter ested in seeing the various communities handle their own affairs.

However, I think that when the taxpayers of this province are providing some 90 or 95 percent of the tax revenue to those communities, there has to be some responsibility on the provincial government to make sure that those funds are expended in a proper way. I don't say that degradingly of the communities that try to look after their own affairs. I just noticed recently where there's been an Order in-Council rescinding, which removes the administra tor from the Northern Affairs, one of the co-ordinators who are looking after the affairs of one of our Northern Affairs communities.

I only say that I hope everything works out well in that community. Just to reiterate what had happened, the mayor and councillors had ignored the regulations that were before them to fol low and they undertook to establish their own pay 209

schedule in excess of communities that incorporated and certainly violating the regulations that they were to follow, so as Minister of Northern Affairs I had no alternative but to put these communities into trust until the council could see for themselves and to cor rect the situation that they had seen fit to put them selves into. A num ber of northern communities are self-administering and the next step, of course, would be to come into incorporation and certainly a lot of the northern communities do not really have any tax base in order to justify complete incorporation at this time.

The question of the transit freeze and the conditions that the province has placed on the City of Winnipeg, whereby some $13 million out of the $40-odd million that will be paid to the city; there are strings attached that this $13 million will have to go to the reduction of the transit deficit, and also that there will be no transit fare increases in the coming year. I think it's fair to point out that this is all well and good, but I'm also wondering what the Minister of Municipal Affairs is going to be prepared to do for the rest of Manitoba, where they have other kinds of services.

When you talk of some 600,000 people that live in the City of Winnipeg, there's some 400,000 people that live in the rest of Manitoba that need to have some consideration as well. There has been the question of rent control legisla tion which will be a saviour to a lot of people who are apartment dwellers, and I can't see for the life of me where rent controls are going to alleviate this prob lem.

Certainly the owners of apartment building have legitimate expenses that have to be met; certainly they don't escape the high interest costs that everyone else has to face and so even with the legitimate costs with out even looking at a cent of profit or revenue to the entrepreneur that wants to get into the apartment dwelling, certainly he isn't going to be encouraged to get into any new construction if he can't even pay his commitments that are before him; let alone trying to make any profit. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time of adjourn ment having arrived, when we next reach this item the honourable member will have 31 minutes remaining. The House is now adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2: 00 p.m. tomorrow afternoon (Tuesday) .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-8b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 8b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ae67c4f7525f76c2508dae62b5481d311f33b7e2

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).