Manitoba Hansard — 20 April 2023 (Sitting 45B, 42nd Legislature, 5th Session)

42-5-45b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXVII No. 45B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April 20, 2023 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon. Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon.

Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott, Hon. Assiniboia PC KHAN, Obby, Hon. Fort Whyte PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLEIN, Kevin E., Hon. Kirkfield Park PC LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice, Hon.

Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg, Hon. Riding Mountain PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle, Hon. Turtle Mountain PC REDHEAD, Eric Thompson NDP REYES, Jon, Hon. Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew, Hon. Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James, Hon. Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC Vacant Morden-Winkler

1709 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 20, 2023 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: Good afternoon, Jets fans. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Speaker: Introduction of bills? Com mittee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): I would like to table the revised Estimates sequence, for today only. Madam Speaker: Thank the minister for that. Ministerial statements? MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Springfield-Ritchot Community Grants Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield-Ritchot): Growing com- munities that are dynamic and vibrant are the back - bone of Manitoba.

The cream of the crop of these communities are Springfield, Niverville and Ritchot. In fact, Niverville was declared Manitoba's fastest growing municipality and the fifth fastest in all of Canada. This growth is reflected in the funding and grants that our communities have received, which has totalled over $211 million in the past year alone. First is the $110 million that was announced last fall for the waste-water treatment facility in Niverville. This facility will increase the capabilities of Niverville, Taché, Hanover and Ritchot to deal with and treat waste water in our communities.

While this may not be the most attractive invest - ment to talk about, proper treatment of waste water is an important driving force behind sustainable growth and quality of service in our province. This waste - water facility will also benefit the recent announced movie studio and hotel, truly making Niverville the Hollywood of the North. Springfield is also benefiting from the announced $4.7 million toward the Springfield community recrea- tion centre.

This centre, which has been over 20 years in the making, consists of multiple spaces that are all designed for the community to come together in different ways, including our gymnasium, a full-sized AstroTurf soccer field and spaces to hold community gatherings. This space will benefit families in our community for years to come. Finally, I want to mention the $300,000 our govern- ment has provided to the Ste. Agathe Arena for the replacement of their ice plant. Local rinks such as this one plays a key part of life for Manitobans. For many of us, some of our earliest memories are the local rink.

Being able to contribut e to the continued use of the Ste. Agathe Arena will be a benefit to families for generations to come. The projects that I have mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg. I've had the pleasure of making–taking

part in many more announcements throughout this year. It's great to see the growth that our communities are seeing, and I hope to see it continue for many, many more years to come. Dr. Katherine Kearns and Dr. Christina Raimondi Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): I am honoured to sa y some words of tribute to Dr. Katherine Kearns and Dr. Christina Raimondi, who recently received Medals of Excellence from Doctors Manitoba. As any parent knows, the first few days and weeks at home with a newborn are a really special time. It can also b e a stressful time.

We know that families sometimes struggle with learning about infant feeding in these early days. And that's where Drs. Kearns and Raimondi come in. After hearing many stories from families about the overwhelming challenges in infant feeding and seeing the lack of education that medical professionals receive about it, Drs. Kearns and Raimondi co- founded the Winnipeg Breastfeeding Centre in 2017. Now, the centre has grown since then, and in addition to having five family docs providing evidence- based, diagnostic support to families, they also col - laborate with pediatric surgeons.

They're also in the process of training a NICU nurse to be a lactation consultant and working with midwifery students. Now, their work also extends far beyond Manitoba's borders. They are developing the professional stan - dards for medical edu cation to incorporate their expertise right around the world.

1710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 And not only am I here to sing the praises of these two docs; my wife Lisa and I are also clients. When we welcomed our youngest home, it was Dr. Raimondi who was there to deliver care with expertise, with compassion and with love, if I may say so. So, on behalf of everybody in Manitoba and all of my colleagues in the Legis lative Assembly, please join me in thanking Dr. Kearns and Dr. Raimondi for their incredible work on behalf of families, babies and all Manitobans. Invasive Species Awareness Week Mr.

Alan Lagimodiere (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, invasive species are the No. 1 cause of biodiversity loss in Manitoba and the world. Mitigating the spread of invasive species requires swift action to conserve our ecosystems. Manitoba was the first province in Canada to pass legislation to establish and designate an invasive species awareness week in 2017. Th is year, Invasive Species Awareness Week starts April 23rd. Our government has clearly priorized the awareness and control of invasive species in our province.

Manitobans can help stop the introduction and spread of invasive species by following some si mple guidelines of prevention, early detection and reporting; by learning as much as they can to help identify in - vasive species and do their part to educate others; by ensuring plants and seeds they bring home are not an invasive threat; by cleaning and d rying all items that were in the water thoroughly, since even a few drops of water can transmit an invasive species to another body of water; by cleaning their boots and clothing before hiking in new areas to get rid of possible hitchhiking seeds and pathogens; and by remembering that plants, animals, insects, fruit and vegetables can all act as vectors and fomites.

Manitobans should already know that transporting firewood in Manitoba can transmit Dutch elm disease and Emerald ash borers, and that releas ing aquarium fish, live bait and non -local animals can pose a significant risk of introducing an invasive species into our local ecosystems. Some examples of local invasive species threats include zebra mussels, lily leaf beetle, purple loose- strife, common tansy and the St. John's wort. Finally, I would like to give Manitobans a friendly reminder to spread the word and not the species. Thank you. Ian Graham Mr.

Eric Redhead (Thompson): Today I rise to recognize Ian Graham for his 16 years of service as a reporter and editor for the Thompson Citizen. Over these years, Ian has worked diligently with the Thompson Citizen and Nickel Belt News and is now moving on in the next –to the next phase of his career. Tasked with news dissemination in our cit y, Ian has been helping Thompson citizens keep up with a fast-paced world. His contri butions have laid a solid foundation for future journalists who wish to work at the Thompson Citizen or emerge from Thompson to go on to do greater endeavours.

Thompson residents appreciate Ian for his con - tributions to our community events over the years by covering local events like Nickel Days, the hot water issues at Thompson General Hospital, sports events and many other moments that brought joy to all of his readers or kept us informed on pressing matters in the North. The impact Ian has made to the Thompson Citizen was felt throughout the North, as he helped provide a sense of connection to all communities that are not physically close. Ian's input in our city news has been impactful and will be greatly missed.

Going forward, Ian Graham will be taking on a new role as the City of Thompson's com munication officer, where he will continue to serve the com - munity by keeping us connected and informed on local developments. I ask my colleagues to join me in appreciating Ian for covering the news in the city of Thompson and throughout–and through different governments, times and seasons. We appreciate your meaningful docu- mentation of our ebbs and flows over the years. Thank you for offering northern Manitoba a journalistic flair that has been unique to Thompson. Manitoba Film Industry Mr. Dougald Lamont (St.

Boniface): April 19th is National Canadian Film Day. We have an exciting film industry in Manitoba, and our province has an amazing history of film accomplish- ments, dating back to 1898 and what is believed to be the first-ever film shot by a Canadian filmmaker, a docu- mentary called Ten Years in Manitoba by James Freer.

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1711 Charles "Charlie" Thorson was an illustrator and animator who created the design for Walt Disney's Snow White and Warner Bros.' Bugs Bunny. * (13:40) In 1941, the film the 49th Parallel was shot on location in Manitoba. It was a Second World War suspense film about German officers who run aground in Hudson Bay and have to make their way through enemy Canada and Manitoba to freedom in the US, which was not yes –yet at war. It featured scenes of Inuit and Indigenous Manitobans and Hutterites, among others.

The Free Press wrote: Through it all, the film preaches that Canadians, be they French Canadian, Inuit, Hutterite, Indigenous, rich eccentrics, whatever, are a pretty decent bunch who have one thing in common–they don't like Hitler's Nazis one bit. Guy Maddin's works have received int ernational acclaim, with film critic Roger Ebert selecting his film My Winnipeg as one of the 10 best of the decade, and his work came out of the pioneering experimental film co-operative of the Winnipeg Film Group.

Pablo Hidalgo, a graduate of Red River poly- technic's creative communications program, is now an executive at Lucasfilm, and is in charge of continuity for the entire, sprawling Star Wars universe. Of course, this Manitoba Legislature has been featured in films, including Shall We Dance and the Oscar-winning Capote. I certainly want to mention the film Women Talking, for which Canadian filmmaker and director Sarah Polley won an Academy Award for the best adapted screenplay, based on the book of the same name by the amazing Manitoba Mennonit e writer, Miriam Toews.

Sarah Polley said: Miriam Toews wrote an essen- tial novel about a radical democracy in which people who don't agree on every single issue managed to sit together in a room and carve out a way forward together, free of violence. Polley said, they do so not just by talking, but also by listening. We are seeing exciting changes in the stories that are being told in Manitoba, and I hope that can see more of Manitoba and our stories reflected and cele- brated on the big screen, because as a province and as a people, we have a story worth telling. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

ORAL QUESTIONS Grace Hospital Surgical Capacity Concerns Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Grace Hospital is struggling to deliver a basic standard of care. That's according to orthopedic surgeons who work at the Grace Hospital. Now, they reached out to this minister and to this Premier for assist ance from their diag nostic and surgical task force.

But not only did the Premier reject these surgeons' proposal to add surgeries at the Grace Hospital, but in fact, this Premier turned around and told these same surgeons to cut the number of surgical appointments at the Grace by 20 per cent. Why did the Premier tell these surgeons to cut the number of appointments for surgeries by 20 per cent? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): I said this yester- day, Madam Speaker, that there was a proposal that went forward from the Grace Hospital to perform 200 more surgeries in orthopedics for hips and knees, again, from the Grace Hospital.

That went forward to the diagnostic and surgical task force. And that was agreed to by the task force. So, those 200 procedures will be moving forward. So that is moving forward, Madam Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition is simply wrong. The–there was a proposal that came forward and it has been accepted by the task force, and the Grace Hospital will now be able to move forward with those surgeries. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Diagnostic and Surgical Task Force Health System Privatization Mr.

Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Premier is trying to run from the cuts that she has directed; cuts at the Grace Hospital that we have tabled the docu mentation for in this House just this week. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: New information, however, shows that these cuts and these demands for priva tization from the task force actually start at the political level. They start at the highest level. I will table copies of the Premier's calendar and it lists the actual members for the working group of this diagnostic and surgical task force.

You will note the composition of those names. There is not a s ingle

1712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 physician, not a single medical expert in that list. They are all politicians. They are all political staff who are directing these cuts and directing this privatization. Why is the Premier ordering cuts and privatization without even talking to the experts? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Well, Madam Speaker, once again, the Leader of the Op position is just simply wrong. When it comes to the diagnos tic and surgical task force, that is chaired by Dr. Peter MacDonald, who is the chair of t hat com mittee. Dr. Ed Buchel also sits on there.

There are other doctors and health-care professionals who sit on there. That is who we get our advice from, Madam Speaker. Those are the experts. We will listen to the experts, not from the Leader of the Opposition. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Madam Speaker, the Premier is trying to distract from her cuts by disputing infor mation that comes from her own calendar. This calendar shows a biweekly meeting, a meeting that happens every two weeks, with the members of the working group that directs the diagnostic and surgical task force.

What she said is incorrect. This document lists that the chair is actually the Minister of Fin ance (Mr. Cullen). It's not the physician who she just named. The documents that we're tabling today directly contradict the message and the talking points of the PCs, and it confirms what Manitobans have known all along: that these cuts and these attemp ts to priva tize have never been recom mended by the experts; it's always been recom mended only by the Premier's inner circle. Why is she making cuts, and why is she priva - tizing medical services without even consulting with physicians? Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs.

Stefanson: This shows how on top of this issue that we are, and that it is a priority for our government, and how often we meet as a group with the surgical and diagnostic task force, Madam Speaker. The surgical and diag nostic task force is, again, chaired by Dr. Peter MacDonald; Dr. Ed Buchel is on there. There are other doctors, other health- care pro- fessionals, Madam Speaker. So I don't know what the Leader of the Opposition is talking about. He loves to table things in the Chamber that have nothing to do and no bearing what- soever on the points that he's trying to make, Madam Speaker.

But what he just did today, it shows all Manitobans that this is a top priority of our government. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Kinew: You know, it's interesting that the Premier says that this is evidence of how on top of it her government is, because when you read down the list of 16 names, more than half of them have quit or been fired by this Premier. You have the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Cullen) who is quitting; you have the former minister of Health, who's already left the building; you have a number of political staff who have recently been fired or have been replaced or shuffled off to special projects and the like. If this is who's directing the surgical and diagnos- tic task force, then it's no wonder that that group is failing to deliver results for Manitobans. Why is the Premier making decisions to cut medical services or to privatize them while only consulting her own inner circle and not the experts? Mrs.

Stefanson: It's hard to know where to begin by answering the litany of false accusations by the Leader of the Opposition. But let's start with, we are making record inve stments in our health- care system in Manitoba, almost $8 billion this year, a 9.2 per cent increase over last year alone, a 23 per cent increase since we took office in 2016. Those are more invest ments in health care in Manitoba, not less, like the Leader of the Op position is trying to suggest. Those are the facts. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Kinew: Here are the facts : Sleep docs from the Misericordia had to resign from the task force advisory committee because they were being ignored; orthopedic surgeons at the Grace Hospital–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –were told to cut surgery appoint ments by 20 per cent, and Manitobans are waiting longer than ever to get the surgeries that they need. And now we know why: because the decisions are being made

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1713 at the Cabinet table, mainly by people who've already quit or signalled at their resignation, but PC insiders. Once again, why is the Premier making decisions to cut and priva tize without listening to doctors, nurses, allied health -care professionals and only her political insiders? * (13:50) Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, a–just a couple of questions ago, the Leader of the Opposi tion said, there are no doctors on the task force. And then now he says, yes, there were doctors but they're resigning.

The Leader of the Opposition has no credibility when it comes to this. But I–what I will say is I want to thank Dr. Peter MacDonald. I want to thank Dr. Ed Buchel. I want to thank our entire surgical and diagnostic task force for the incredible work that they're doing because they're making significant headway at reducing those surgical and diagnos tic backlogs for people in Manitoba, Madam Speaker. Yes, they are contracting some of those out. That's to ensure that more Manitobans get the surgeries that they need, want and deserve, Madam Speaker. We will take no lessons from the members opposite.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Madam Speaker, it's the Premier who has no credibility when it comes to health care because the Premier knows that the task force working group that I'm talking about here, made up exclusively of PC insiders, does not have any physicians in it. The physicians that I spoke of –and Hansard will reveal this–resigned from an advisory committee. The Premier of Manitoba should know the difference.

The only reason that she would pretend not to know the difference would either be incompetence or to try and evade accountability questions being asked on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Given the failures–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –of this PC government to cut wait times and to improve surgeries, why does the Premier insist on listening only to those PC insiders while ignoring the experts in this province? [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs.

Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, I don't know where the Leader of the Opposition is going with that bizarre rant, but we do know that Manitobans are looking for health-care services and we want to ensure that, through our surgical and diag nostic task force, that those Manitobans will be able to get access to the health care that they need when they need it. And I want to thank our surgical and diagnos tic task force for the incredible work that they are doing day in and day out. They are making significant head- way.

A 32 per cent reduction in backlogs, Madam Speaker, across all the surgical and diagnostics in the province. That's significant headway, eliminating many of the backlogs within some of those areas. That's significant headway that is being made by our surgical and diag- nostic task force. We will continue to work with them to ensure that Manitobans get the health care they need when they need it.

Funding for Orthopedic Surgeries Public-Private Services MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): Madam Speaker, this past week, we've confirmed once again that this Health Minister doesn't think she's accountable for the current state of health care in our province. The PCs continue to put their ideology of cuts and privatization ahead of patient out comes and they've ignored proposals from orthopedic surgeons from the Grace to increase the number of procedures done at that hospital. Instead, this PC Health Minister's task force actually directed the Grace to cut their surgeries by 20 per cent.

Madam Speaker, my question for the Health Minister is: Is it possible that your PC gov ernment's continued cuts and inaction over the past seven years is the reason why the public has absolutely zero trust in your government? Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I can understand why the members opposite want distra - ction from the great results that were reported yester- day by the Diag nostic and Surgical Recovery Task Force. They also don't want Manitobans to know that the task force approved an additional 200 orthopedic-joint day procedures at the Grace Hospital, Madam Speaker. But those are the facts.

1714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 And, as the Premier stated, the total surgical back- log has been reduced by 32 per cent, Madam Speaker. Diagnostics has been reduced 31 per cent. Those are the facts. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a supplementary question. MLA Asagwara: Madam Speaker, despite all of the evidence–the devastating evidence to the contrary, this PC Health Minister still thinks that seven years of cuts and chaos was the right thing to do. Now they're shifting to the next stage of their plan, and this PC Premier (Mrs.

Stefanson) is intent on privatizing and contracting out the delivery of health-care services in our province. In the case of orthopedic surgeries at Concordia, they're sending patients out of province at a greater expense even though there's existing capacity that the PCs refuse to invest in. Will this Health Minister tell Manitobans why she decided that it's not possible to direct funding to the front lines of our health-care system–our public health- care system–and fund orthopedic surgeries right here at home? Ms.

Gordon: Madam Speaker, 200 additional orthopedic surgeries have been approved at the Grace Hospital. And I want to just add my voice in thanking the Diagnostic and Surgical Recovery Task Fo rce for helping our government to eliminate the backlogs in cataract surgeries, CT scans, ultrasound tests, cardiac catheterization, lab tests, pacemaker surgeries, pediatric neural-developmental assessment, urology tests, oral surgery and dentistry, echocardiography tests, cardiac surgery, Madam Speaker, and the list goes on. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a final supplementary.

MLA Asagwara: You know, Madam Speaker, Manitobans are absolutely correct in their assessment that this PC gov ernment cannot be trusted when it comes to their health care. The obfuscation and obstructionism from this Health Minister are unreal. She ignores doctors at the Grace, she ignores doctors at Misericordia, she insults the nurses at SANE at HSC and she disrespects the allied health-care professionals across our province by keep- ing them without a contract for over five years.

When will this PC Health Minister stop the excuses, stop the inaction and accept the offers of help and assistance from great –the Grace doctors, the ortho- pedic surgeons and, quite frankly, any and all of the experts who have extended help to her– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Ms. Gordon: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the doctors that are part of the Diag nostic and Surgical Recovery Task Force and their steering committee. I know the Leader of the Opposi tion hasn't looked at the list lately, but I'll start with Dr. Peter MacDonald, who's the chair; Dr.

Ed Buchel, who's the prov incial specia lty lead of surgery; Dr. Chris Christodoulou, prov incial specialty lead of anesthesia; Dr. Marco Essig, prov incial specialty lead, diag nostic imaging; Dr. Amin Kabani, prov - incial specialty lead, diag nostic laboratory services; Dr. David Hochman, general surgery. Madam Speaker, the list is just filled with physicians– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. Manitoba Hydro International Government Decision to Sell Mr. Adrien Sala (St.

James): Manitoba Hydro Inter- national was a success ful sub sidiary that provided consulting on energy projects around the world. I say was, Madam Speaker, because in 2021, the PC gov - ernment ordered them to wind down their operations. This is despite the fact that Manitoba Hydro Inter - national was very profitable. New FIPPA docu ments, which I'll table, show that in 2019-2020, their net income was $6.7 million. That's millions of dollars every year Hydro is missing out on thanks to this PC government's interference. Can the Premier explain why is she throwing away millions of dollars? Hon.

Cliff Cullen (Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro): I certainly appreciate the question coming from the member opposite. * (14:00) Talking a bout throwing away money, Madam Speaker, Manitoba Hydro currently has over a $24 billion of debt. Part of that is because of the $4-billion capital boondoggle overrun at the hands of the NDP. Because of the $24.6 billion of debt Manitoba Hydro currently has, they're paying over $1 billion a year in interest charges, money that Manitoba ratepayers have to fork

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1715 over because of mis management by the NDP. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. The honourable member for St. James, on a sup- plementary question. Mr. Sala: The PC decision to wind down Manitoba Hydro Inter national is baffling. Their own briefing notes, which I'll table, say that, quote: MHI provides Manitoba Hydro and the province with a global repu- tation for innovation and success and contributes to the economic dev elopment of Manitoba companies with the resulting positive financial impacts for the province. End quote.

Rather than support MHI, which generated $6.7 million in profits in 2019- 2020, the PCs shut them down. That's the wrong approach. Can the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) explain why she's standing in the way of millions in dollars – millions of dollars–worth of profits for Manitobans? Mr. Cullen: Madam Speaker, let's talk about the millions of dollars that the NDP have sucked out of Manitoba Hydro over the years. Madam Speaker, we know the NDP never saw a tax they didn't like or a fee they didn't like. So what happened under the NDP reign to Manitoba Hydro in terms of the debt -guarantee fee and the water -rental fee?

The NDP chose to double those fees. Our government has taken a different approach. We've reduced those fees in half, Madam Speaker; that's saving Manitoba ratepayers $180 million this year alone. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, on a final supplementary. Mr. Sala: Since Manitoba Hydro Inter national was incorporated in 1999, it's generated $80 million in profits. I'll table the document now. The Province's own briefing notes admit that MHI has positive financial impacts for Manitoba. Yet, what did the PCs do? They ordered MHI to wind down their operations. That makes absolutely no sense.

Will the Premier do the right thing and explain why she's throwing away millions of dollars every year? Mr. Cullen: Well, Madam Speaker, you don't have to take my word for the numbers I've put on the record. We can go to Manitoba Hydro and their current general rate application. Clearly, in here, they talk about the debt has grown to $24.6 billion at the hands of the NDP. That represents $18,000 of debt for each and every Manitoban. Debt- servicing cost: $1 billion a year; historically, up 'til this year, 40 per cent of Manitoba Hydro's revenue used to pay interest costs, Madam Speaker.

Because of the action this gov ernment just took, that fee has been reduced to 30 per cent of revenue, saving Manitoba ratepayers money today and into the future. Apprehension of Indigenous Baby Child and Family Services Birth Alert MLA Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): On April 14th, a healthy baby weighing almost eight pounds was born to a young Indigenous woman. The family was very excited for the birth of their newest family member. The family has a kinship clan that would see Baby come home with Mom to live with Mom's older sister or Baby's auntie.

While waiting for discharge papers and a taxi to go home with Baby, Winnipeg Child and Family Services unexpectedly showed up with hospital security to appre- hend the baby. Family were threatened with police if the family did not give up Baby to CFS. Under duress, the family had no choice but to do so. Why was Baby, only hours old, apprehended by CFS when the Province claims to have ended birth alerts? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Families): Of course, the member knows that I'm not willing or able, nor should we be discussing case specifics on the floor of the Manitoba Legislature.

What I will say is that the general author ity has been instructed to provide extreme oversight and to ensure that they are at the table with family planning immediately. And my under standing is that has occurred. On the issue of birth alerts, it's our government, in 2020, who issued the policy change to end birth alerts, and we have seen a 70 per cent reduction in newborn apprehensions since the birth alert policy was changed. Unlike when m embers opposite were in power and that–they apprehended nearly a baby a day. That is their record. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St.

Johns, on a supplementary question.

1716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 MLA Fontaine: Baby's family has a kinship plan in place, ensuring that Baby would come home to family alongside mom. The family went to such lengths to meet CFS standards and criteria by moving into a bigger resi - dence on April 2nd. Baby's mom has her own room. Baby spent months–mom–Baby's mom spent months ensuring that her baby has everything that she needs– a crib, a stroller, clothes, diapers, every thing. Mom was so happy and proud.

Baby's family was never given any indication that there were some ongoing concerns or issues up until minutes before they were supposed to leave. Why has the minister allowed a young Indigenous new mom to be separated by her –from her newborn when birth alerts were supposedly ended? Ms. Squires: So, the member knows that I will not be discussing specifics about this case on the floor of the legislative Chamber, and that we do uphold the principles of privacy and respect for families that are dealing with the CFS system.

What I can say is that I've instructed the general authority to provide extreme oversight and family planning with this family and my understanding is, is that is occurring as we speak. When that member –when the member for St. Johns was the special advisor to the minister of Families in 2014, they apprehended 289 babies – newborn babies–babies between the ages of zero days and three days, they had apprehended during that time when she was the special advisor to the minister of Families. We've seen a 70 per cent reduction since those dark days. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St.

Johns, on a final supplementary. MLA Fontaine: When CFS unexpectedly showed up at the hospital a couple of days ago, no explanation was given to Baby's family as to why Baby was being apprehended. The family wasn't offered any supports or allowed any advocates to be present. Mom and the family haven't been given any updates or explanation other than for the new mom to drop off some breast milk for Baby. Mom and family have been working with the First Nations family child advocate's office, who, in their expertise, hasn't seen any concerns or issues in respect of Baby's safety.

The family has the full support of the First Nations Family Advocate Office, and mom has extensive family and community support. So, why has the minister and this Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) failed at keeping this new mom and her newborn together? Ms. Squires: When the NDP formed gov ernment in 1999, there were 5,000 children in care. When they left office –when voters showed them the door –in 2016, there was 11,500 kids in care. That is their record. When the member for St. Johns was the special advisor to the minister of Families, in their last year in office, they apprehended 286 newborn babies.

That's newborn babies that were either a day old, one day old, two days old or three days old. That is her track record. Our government has reduced the number of children in care, and we have also reduced 70 per cent of the newborn apprehensions since we issued a policy change to end the discriminatory practice of birth alerts. International Student Health Care Request to Reinstate Coverage Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): Madam Speaker, in Manitoba, we should be able to quality public health care to everyone in our province, including inter national students that call Manitoba home.

They contribute to our economy, they contribute to our society and they want to build a future here. * (14:10) But this government is making life more expen - sive for them by forcing them to buy private health care. Now, this minister–this Health Minister says that she's the minister of the possible. So I ask the minister: Will she make it possible for inter national students to have access to public health care today? Hon.

Sarah Guillemard (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): I've had the privilege of meeting with a number of student groups: the UMSU group, we've met with MAPSS, we've met with CFS Manitoba chapters. We've had some very robust discussions, in - cluding members who sit on these various committees who are international students, and what they are ask- ing for is more comprehensive coverage. We have an ongoing discussion–and they also understand that it's fair that there is a cost to that, that health care is not

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1717 free for anyone. So they are willing to actually come to the table and have proper discussions. I'm not sure that the member opposite has met with any of them and had these in- depth discussions. But I'd be–I would advise the member opposite to set up those meetings. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Vital, on a final–pardon me, on a supplem entary question. Mr. Moses: Now, the reality is that life is getting more expensive for international students and students across Manitoba. This PC gov ernment is making it worse.

They've hiked up tuition, they're raising hydro rates, they're raising 'rench' wait–rates. Students are struggling, Madam Speaker. And international students have to face even more costs because they have to pay for private health care because of this government's decisions. Now, the minister has an opportunity today to do the thing, to do the right thing by inter national students and reinstate them on the public health- care plan; will she do so today? Mrs. Guillemard: Again, I have had multiple meetings with a number of student groups and individual stu- dents as I've been attending events.

And, you know, the No. 1 thing that every inter national student has conveyed to me as to why they chose Manitoba is because of our low tuition fees and that the cost of the health-care aspect is not a deterrent. So, these are ongoi ng discussions, which I'm happy to sit at the table and have these discussions, and they are appreciative of all the discussions we've been having. The member opposite doesn't know what he's talking about, and I don't know if he has a hidden agenda to increase student fees. Maybe he should come to the table and admit what his hidden agenda is. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order.

Order. The honourable member for St. Vital, on a final supplementary. Mr. Moses: Madam Speaker, the minister and all Manitobans remember that Brian Pallister made a lot of cuts to health care; the cuts that the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) and the minister and the entire PC team supported and that they continue to this very day. This includes to international student health care. Will the minister simply admit that Brian Pallister's cuts to international student health care was wrong, and will she actually make a change to reinstate public health care for international students today? Mrs.

Guillemard: We are the lowest tuition in western Canada. We have a high standard of education here at our post -secondary institutes. Those are the factors that attract inter national students right here to our home province. They are happy to learn and be educated here, and I would encourage the member–I would encourage the member–to support the students and invite more to come to Manitoba and enjoy the benefits of a great education and low tuition fees. CFS Apprehension of Indigenous Baby Continued Practice in Manitoba Mr. Dougald Lam ont (St.

Boniface): Leaders like Cindy Blackstock and Murray Sinclair have called CFS the new resi dential schools. There have been times in Manitoba the last few years when there were more Indigenous children in CFS just in Manitoba than there were at t he height of all the residential schools in Canada combined. During the 2000s scoop, the number of children doubled from 5,500 to over 11,000, and we have the highest child apprehension rate in the world, including taking a newborn baby a day, every day, for years on end, and it has not stopped. A newborn baby was seized from a first-time Indigenous mother again.

Why are we still seeing newborn babies being seized at all, especially from Indigenous mothers who've never had a chance to parent? Hon. Roche lle Squires (Minister of Families): Reducing the number of kids in care, family reunifica- tion and prevention are high priorities for our govern- ment and for the Department of Families. And so, our gov ernment has made sig nificant investments–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Ms. Squires: –like investments in Granny's House respite, which, I would remind the member for The Pas-Kameesak (Ms.

Lathlin), who happens to be heckling at me from her seat right now, that she voted against respite dollars for Granny's House to prevent CFS involvement to ensure continuity and reunifica - tion and pre vention supports for families who are struggling.

1718 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 That is something that our government is invest- ing in. That is why we will continue to invest in these measures to keep families together. That is why we've also reduced the number of kids in care by 2,000. Madam Speaker: The honour able member for St. Boniface, on a supplementary question. The Link Youth and Family Supports Centre Timeline for Third-Party Report Mr. Dougald Lamont (St. Boniface): Realistically, Manitoba has a history of treating Indigenous people worse than any other province in Canada.

We talk about the harms of the past, but we're turning a blind eye to the harms of the prese nt because governments have never stopped taking–tearing apart Indigenous families. It's not just intergenerational trauma; it's trauma that's being created right now, affecting thousands of families. More than half the people who are homeless in Winnipeg were in CFS and we're not doing enough to support children in the CFS system or when they age out of care.

That's why when we heard from employees and Indigenous youth in care at The Link, formerly Macdonald Youth Services, that it was in crisis, we asked for an investigation. When can we expect the full report that was promised in March? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Families): So, I've already answered that question that the member for St. Boniface has asked previously about our work at the Link, and that I've assured the member that there is a third-party evaluation that is being done right now.

What I can also say to the member is that, in addi- tion to reducing the number of kids in care, our gov - ernment was very pleased to announce, just two weeks ago, a formalization of the program for youth aging out of care to ensure that young people are provided with better supports and ongoing supports, even after they've reached the age of majority, so that those ad- ditional dollars have been put in place –almost $5 million–to ensure that kids don't age out of care until they're well prepared to.

We believe that will go a long way, and I just hope that members opposite will support those investments that our department is making. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights, on a final supplementary. Diabetes Prevention Request for Action Plan Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, diabetes was declared an epidemic by Manitoba's gov- ernment in 1996. Since then, consecutive PC and NDP governments have been ineffective in preventing the epidemic's spread. Diabetes prevalence has risen to now include 185,000 Manitobans.

November 2nd last year, the government committed to release a diabetes action plan later t hat month, as I tabled. Today, five months later, there is no action plan. Why has the gov ernment been such a laggard in priorizing actions to effectively prevent diabetes in Manitoba? And why is it that on the A -to-Z list of diseases and public health issues on the Manitoba Health website that diabetes is not even listed– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Hon.

Janice Morley-Lecomte (Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness): We have looked in and invested monies into assisting individuals with multiple illnesses. Diabetes action plan is currently being reviewed. We're looking at the best possible solution going forward to ensure that individuals needing help will get the help they need. Retail Sale of Cannabis Public or Private Model Mr.

Shannon Martin (McPhillips): We've always known that the NDP have been out of touch with Manitobans, and that has been confirmed this week when they blocked efforts to modernize liquor sales, allowing consumers convenience and choice. Now the NDP are threatening private cannabis retailers simply because they are not government entities. These businesses have invested heavily in their businesses and in our com munities, establishing jobs and economic investments. Can the Minister responsible for Manitoba Liquor and Lotteries elaborate on the economic consequences of the NDP's dangerous anti-business rhetoric? Hon.

Andrew Smith (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor and Lotteries Corporation): I ap- preciate the member from McPhillips for his great question. * (14:20) I am very disappointed to hear the comments by the NDP early this week about private retailers in

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1719 cannabis industry, Madam Speaker. The NDP have provided a solution that–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Smith: –nobody wants to a problem that doesn't even exist. I've spoken to retailers this week about it and, unfortunately, they are very concerned. It's funda - mentally wrong, Madam Speaker, for a government to try–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Smith: –to undercut and undermine private entre- preneurs in this space, and those folks are very concerned.

We know that the NDP are ideologically opposed to success, but that should not get in the way of letting our entrepreneurs be successful in this province. They say–they–the NDP– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Employment Leave for Miscarriage or Stillbirth Request to Call Bill 210 to Standing Committee Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas -Kameesak): The estimates are that one in five pregnancies end in miscarriage. This House has already recog nized that grieving families need extra time when they lose a loved one, including from a miscarriage.

And three times, including in this session, our party has put forward amendments that would provide guaranteed paid leave while families are grieving their losses. Now that the PC gov ernment has started to call bills to committee for public input, will they call Bill 210 to committee now? Ekosi. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, we know that miscarriages have been traumatic for many families. I've heard the personal stories from many in this House, from con - stituents, in my own family, as I've spoken about before.

I think it speaks well for this House that there have been two bills coming forward–one by the member for The Pas, one by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Micklefield)–that recognize how significant that is for families. I can assure the House that there will be a bill that will be called to commit tee, and that individuals can speak–[interjection] Well, it's not really funny. This is a difficult, difficult issue, and I commend the House for being able to address this. And we will have a bill at com mittee so th at Manitobans can speak to it. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired.

PETITIONS Brandon University Funding Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) Since taking office, the provincial government has cut operating funding to post -secondary in sti- tutions such as Brandon Uni versity, while simultaneously increasing tuition and student fees.

(2) Brandon Uni versity is the only uni versity in rural Manitoba and serves as an im portant hub for Westman.

(3) Brandon Uni versity is the largest univer sity outside of Winnipeg with over 2,200 full -time stu - dents and just under 1,000 part-time students.

(4) Despite the important role Brandon University plays in Manitoba, the prov incial gov ernment is continuing to cut the uni versity's funding in Budget '23-24, as funding yet again fails to keep pace with inflation.

(5) Inadequate funding hurts students and the quality of education they receive as it may force Brandon University to weigh –raise tuition, cut pro - grams and services or even both.

(6) Funding cuts also negatively impact Brandon University's faculty who are at risk of having their courses cut or being let go altogether.

(7) The prov incial gov ernment has refused to explain why Brandon Uni versity's '23 -24 operating funding increase falls below inflation, and why it is lower than other universities in Manitoba. We therefore petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to adequately fund Brandon Uni versity so that the in stitution can

1720 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 avoid making cuts and continue to serve students, faculty, Westman and the province of Manitoba as a whole. This petition, Madam Speaker, is signed by many Manitobans. Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are read, they are deemed to be received by the House. Provincial Road 224 Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas-Kameesak): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Prov incial Road 224 serves Peguis First Nation, Fisher River Cree Nation and surrounding communities. The road is in need of substan tial repairs.

(2) The road has been in poor condition for years and has numer ous potholes, uneven driving surfaces and extremely narrow shoulders.

(3) Due to recent popula tion growth in the area, there has been increased vehicle and pedestrian use of Provincial Road 224.

(4) Without repair, Prov incial Road 224 will continue to pose a hazard to the many Manitobans who use it on a regular basis.

(5) Concerned Manitobans are requesting that Provincial Road 224 be assessed and repaired urgently to improve safety for its users. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure to complete an assessment of Provincial Road 224 and implement the appropriate repairs using public funds as quickly as possible. Madam Speaker, this petition has been signed by many, many fine Manitobans. Ekosi. Security System Incentive Program Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) Cities across Canada and the United States, including Chicago; Washington, DC; Salinas, California; and Orillia, Ontario, are offering home security rebate programs that enhance publi c safety and allow for more efficient use of their policing resources.

(2) Home security surveillance systems protect homes and businesses by potentially deterring burglaries, reducing homeowners' and business insurance costs.

(3) Whole neighbourhoods benefit when more homes and businesses have these security systems.

(4) A 2022 Angus Reid Insti tute poll found that 70 per cent of Winnipeggers surveyed believed that crime had increased over the last five years, the highest percentage found among cities in Canada.

(5) The same survey reported half of Winnipeggers polled do not feel safe walking alone at night, and almost 20 per cent of them said they were a victim of police-reported crime in the last two years.

(6) Though the public understands what the criminologists and com munity advocates point to as the main drivers of crime, namely the larger issues of lack of food, addictions and poverty, they support rebate programs like these as they help the most vul - nerable in our com munity by removing financial barriers for personal protection.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial government to work with municipalities to establish a province-wide tax rebate or other incentive program to encourage residents and businesses to purchase approved home and busi ness security systems–of security protection systems. And this petition is signed by many, many Manitobans. Foot-Care Services Mr. Eric Redhead (Thompson): I wish to present the following pet ition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55-plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people of those people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are living on low incomes.

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1721

(4) Excuse me. The northern regional health authority, N -R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot-care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those posi - tions retired.

(2) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thomps on and the surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and the region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1st, 2022. This petition has been signed by many Manitobans. * (14:30) Thank you. Afghan Refugees in Manitoba Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legis - lative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: Since the takeover of Afghanistan by the Taliban in August of 2021, Afghan citizens and their families have been subjected to persecution and human rights atrocities because of their faith, gender and former associations with organizations thought to be friendly with the previous gov ernment and its allies. This abuse has taken the form of public assaults, kid- nappings and killings.

Many Afghans have left or are attempting to leave Afghanistan to find safe refuge in neighbouring coun- tries. This undertaking is difficult due to the Taliban's activities and their presence in countries like Pakistan. Many Afghans who are looking to leave Afghanistan and come to Canada are educated and ex perienced and, as such, would prove to be valuable assets to Manitoba, considering its current labour shortages and challenges to its economy. Educated Afghans have usually studied for four to six years in a specific field of study and spent a sig- nificant amount of time and money for that education.

However, these people still face barriers to obtaining employment in their field of expertise, as Canada has very strict rules regarding the use of that edu cation and experience. Many Afghans are refugees in other countries and are currently jobless, which is an added barrier for them under the current criteria of the Prov incial Nominee Program. Some Afghan newcomers who face literacy issues because they came from a non-developed country would benefit from an in-depth informational course to assist them with acclimation into Canadian lifestyles.

The Interim Federal Health Program provides limited, temporary coverage of health-care benefits to refugees who aren't eligible for prov incial or territorial health insurance. However, the refugee must apply for discretionary coverage and provide a list of com - pelling personal circumstances in order to qualify, but for urgent medical circumstances, such as root canals, unanticipated life-threatening and emergency medical conditions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial government to work with the federal gov ernment to priorize the evacuation of the immediate and extended family of Afghans who now call Canada home, and to facilitate their coming to Manitoba, including helping Afghan refugees in other countries such as Pakistan. To urge the provincial government to expand the Manitoba Provincial Nominee Program and re-evaluate the accreditation of edu cation and jobs to ensure all immigrants and refugees can utilize their skills more easily and readily in Manitoba for work.

To urge the provincial government to have fewer rigid criteria for Afghans under the Provincial Nominee Program, and having a connection to Manitoba family members or friends should be a key criteria. To urge the prov incial gov ernment to enhance adequate acclimation services for newcomers through community-based support programs and increase their health-care coverage to meet their urgent health -care necessities.

1722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 Signed by Waheed Safdary, Naveed Safdary, Omed Safdary and many, many other Manitobans. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Could you please resolve into Committee of Supply. Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the House will consider Estimates this afternoon. This House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ROOM 254 HEALTH * (14:40) The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Will the Committee o f Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the De partment of Health. Questioning for this de partment will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open. MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): At this time, I would like to end the committee for Health and we can close things out. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you. Hearing no further questions, we will now proceed to consideration of the resolutions. At this point, we will allow virtual members to unmute their mics so they can respond to the questions. I will now call resolution 21.2:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $18,302,000 for Health, health policy – 18 billion–no, 18,302,000–[interjection] Okay, we'll start again. Sorry.

Be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $18,302,000 for Health, Health Policy and Planning, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.3:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $15,189,000 for Health, Insurance, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 2 1.4:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $28,572,000 for Health, Public Health, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.5:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,274,000 for Health, Performance and Oversight, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.6:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,338,825,000–[interjection]–okay; I apologize. We'll start again. Resolution 21.6:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,330,825,000 for Health, Funding to Health Author- ities, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.7:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $233,511,000 for Health, Provincial Health Services, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.8:

be it RESOLVED there be–that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,483,442,000 for Health, Medical, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.9:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum n ot exceeding $442,899,000 for Health, Pharma care, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. * (14:50) Resolution 21.11:

be it RESOLVED that there be–[interjection]–point one-one? Did I miss one?

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1723 Resolution 21.10:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $207,890,000 for Health, Costs Related to Capital Assets of Other Reporting Entities, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.11:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $950,000 for Health, Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 21.12:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $288,913,000 for Health, Other Reporting Entities Capital Investment, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Hearing no further questions–[interjection]–the last item to be considered for these Estimates is item 1(a), the minister's salary, contained in resolution 21.1. The floor is now open for questions. MLA Asagwara: I move that line item 21.1(

a) be amended so that the Minister of Health's salary be reduced to $33,600. Motion presented. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): The motion is in order. Are there any questions or comments on the motion? Is the committee ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Yes. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Shall the motion pass? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): I hear a no. Voice Vote The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): All those in favour of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea.

The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): All those opposed to the motion, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): In my opinion, the Nays have it. The motion is accordingly defeated. * * * The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): This com- pletes–[interjection] Resolution 21.1:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,886,000 for Health, Finance, for fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates for the Department of Health. Thank you. Question to the com mittee of the House: I'm suggesting we take a 10-minute recess before we start the next Committee of Supply. All in favour? [Agreed] The committee recessed at 2:56 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 3:08 p.m. SENIORS AND LONG-TERM CARE The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the De partment of Seniors and Long-Term Care. Questioning for this de- partment will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): At our last meeting, I think it was on the 14th, the minister promised to give answers to some of my questions as –in little as one day. And I think I'm yet to hear from him on any of them. Does he have all those answers ready right now? Hon.

Scott Johnston (Minister of Seniors and Long-Term Care): This is–I was kind of under the impression that Seniors and Long- Term Care would be continuing consistently in Estimates; therefore, I was prepared to offer further information to the member, but we didn't sit, as you called Health back. So I do have further infor mation to you; I don't have all of the information that you had asked for. As I indicated, we would supply the information that we would be able to.

1724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 So I can indicate to you–so the question that I have right now to be able to refer further information to–or, indicate further information to–was question 2 was in regards to department vacancy. We have one vacancy and we are moving to fill it. The vacancy–[interjection] bless you–the vacancy is a term position, junior policy analyst. So that was the question in regards to department vacancies. * (15:10) Question No. 3 and 4 was in regards to home-care vacancies.

The home- care vacancies for staffing are as follows: There are 141 nursing EFT vacancies, a 22 per cent EFT vacancy rate. That's in home care. There are 369 health-care aide EFT vacancies, which is a 21 per cent EFT vacancy rate; there are 31 health-care support work EFT vacancies, a 16 per cent EFT vacancy rate. This includes term and permanent vacancies. This data was reported in February and early March 2023 and was summarized on March the 16th, 2023. That's the information that we are able to relay back to the member at this time.

And question No. 5 was–okay, I do have a ques - tion No. 5, which I am able to indicate as per the question from the member from River Heights, but I can hold that answer until the member of River Heights is ready to speak or I can answer it right now, at your wish. An Honourable Member: Sure, right now. Mr. Johnston: Okay. Question No. 5 was: When you are looking at the efforts for seniors and we combine long-term care and home care, it's my under standing that the allocation is about two thirds for long -term care and one third for care home.

The–can the minister confirm that this–and tell me whether or not that's the kind of balance that he's anticipating in the future? That was the question. The response that we would give the member or I would give the member: While it is correct that when combining long-term care and home- care funding to health authorities as identified in the 2023 -24 Health supplement of Estimates and expenditures, the alloca- tion is approximately two thirds for long- term care and one third for home care.

This allocation is a function of the math only and is not representative of a policy or allocation that the government is adapting in future at this time. So that is the further question. Any other informa- tion that was requested will be coming forward as per the protocols of 45 days at Estimates. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Any further questions from the floor? Mr. Maloway: I'd like to ask the minister if he could provide us with a copy of his mandate letter. Mr.

Johnston: In answer to the member's question, there never was formalized mandate letters to the ministers under the Premier's (Mrs. Stefanson) direc- tion. It was quite clear that the mandate of the Ministry of Seniors and Long-Term Care was to certainly fulfill the needs of seniors in the province of Manitoba. The Premier determined that there needed to be a further focus of seniors, therefore created the depart ment, a new de partment, which was allotted a budget of $54 million in its initial existence.

And I am pleased to say that the increase in the budget to the Department of Seniors has gone up quite substantially: 72 per cent that our gov ernment has allotted to this de partment to address the needs of seniors, and that represents close to a $40- million increase. Incidentally, that is the largest increase of any de partment–percentage increase of any depart - ment under–in the Manitoba government.

So we're quite pleased with the fact that our gov- ernment has dedi cated such a historic initiative to address the needs of seniors, and based on the initia - tives that I have been mandated to address, which is, I think, two major, major initia tives: the Stevenson review, which had addressed a number of recommen- dations that our gov ernment has adopted, 17 recom - mendations. And we have fulfilled the larger per - centage of them and we are continuing to work to fulfill all of them, as has been indicated several times publicly.

And we're very pleased to be able to offer that to fulfill the needs of seniors in Manitoba. The second initiative, a major initiative that the Premier mandated our department was the implemen- tation of the seniors strategy. And the seniors strategy has been–went–was developed through a great deal of consultation with stakeholders and seniors themselves as well as many com munities in the province of Manitoba to deter mine what their feelings are and what needs they feel needed to be fulfilled.

And the seniors strategy, I'm very pleased to indicate, has already initiated a number of things, including hearing–the hearing aid program which was very well received by the people of Manitoba and seniors. And certainly we're looking forward to appro- priations being passed through the Legislature and I'm sure that the members of the opposi tion will ensure

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1725 that we're able to proceed with all these great initiatives for seniors, as per the seniors strategy. As I mentioned, $34 million so far has been initiated by this department to assist seniors in aging at home, as well as, certainly, other initiatives–as well as stake- holders–as well as stakeholders, Madam Chairman. This government had initiated a $3- million expendi- ture in support for support services and many of the great stakeholders that we have in this province were benefiting by that.

So, you know, those are the key mandates that this department has been addressing and will continue to address because our seniors strategy is a living docu- ment. And not only we–are we initiating a number of issues that already –or, a number of initiatives that already have been indicated, we are–just recently we initiated the home-modification program, which was extremely well received. And there's more to come.

I can indicate to the members of the opposition that there is more to come and I'm looking forward for their support in support - ing seniors in this province because that's what the seniors strategy does. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): The minister's time has expired. Mr. Maloway: I'd like to ask the minister, with regard to the 17 recom mendations of the Stevenson review, I'd like to know which ones, which of the 17 are com- pleted and when will the last one be complete. * (15:20) Mr.

Johnston: We're very pleased with the progress that we've made in regards to imple menting the recommendations of the Stevenson report, and we have allotted $15 million on our initial an nouncement in regards to fulfilling our obligation as far as being able to fund so that we can proceed with trying to fulfill the obligations of the seniors report. If you don't allot the expenditure to be able to fulfill those goals, then you can't fulfill those goals. And that's what we did: We brought forward an an- nouncement of $15 million, and I can go through the initiatives that that–qualifies that.

And as a matter of fact, also, too, Madam speak– or Madam Chairman, we had also, too–further to that, I believe that $15 million we had brought forward in an announcement in April of the year. And, subject – further to that, we also announced another $16 million to, again, fulfill the obligations, which was, you know, a $31- million invest ment for the Stevenson recom - mendations. And I would remind the member that when we brought these initiatives forward, they were budgeted, and your–the opposition voted against it.

The opposi- tion voted against all these initiatives that were brought forward to enhance seniors in the province of Manitoba, as per the Stevenson recommendations. So that was a little disappointing, to say the least. That was disappointing that when we hear a number of initiatives that the op position wishes our gov ern- ment to take and fulfill, and when we are moving ahead with them, the opposition plays politics with it and votes against it.

And then, on the other hand, they turn around and start complaining about why initiatives haven't been– it doesn't make a lot of sense, but the government itself certainly isn't going to play politics with these impor- tant initiatives. We're building the foundation and putting our money where our mouth is. So, $15 million to support and implement the 17 recommendations initially.

This includes en - hancing infection pre vention and control within the long-term-care sector, which includes provincial pro- gram manager, regional leads and 50 infection control staff; more than 200 full -time-equivalent house - keeping staff, as well as the first phase of allied health staffing–which, 44 full-time equivalents. And I remember vividly in the House, recently, the members of the opposition–Health critic–indicating their support for allied health and their indication of support for allied health.

And yet, we, under the Stevenson report, were bringing forward the opportunity to phase in further allied health support; and yet, the opposi - tion, again, voted against it. So, again, playing politics versus us trying to accom plish goals on behalf of seniors is certainly some thing that I'm sure that the public may not ignore. Improvements to information, communication tech- nologies, to better support operations and patient care; over $260,000 in addi tional funding, which also strengthens the capacity for quality and standard officers, as well as Protec tion for Persons in Care Office capacity.

This funding will also support better integra- tion and–of personal -care homes within the broader health system, and permanently esta blish a personal- care-home liaison. So that was the first $15 million; that was the first $15 million that the op position didn't support. And I can–I'll get into–I notice my time is getting short, so

1726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 I've got a whole–I've got another $16 million here that I can indicate to the record of the other initiatives that we were bringing forward on behalf of Stevenson that the opposition didn't support, and yet indicates in the House that they want to support these initiatives. So, something doesn't work somewhere. Mr. Maloway: For the third time, I'm asking the minister: Minister, when will all 17 recommendations be completed?

You've spent the whole time skirting around the issue here, telling me everything but what I ask you, which was when are the 17 recom men- dations going to be fully implemented? What date? Mr. Johnston: The member brings up the Stevenson report and the recom mendations coming out of the senior supports, so I think it's a very valid opportunity to continue to delve into exactly what the Stevenson report was all about and the recom mendations that came–were coming out of the seniors report. And, certainly, all the initiatives the gov ernment has taken, and the gov ernment will continue to take.

Fortunately, we have a majority and we will continue to pursue these initiatives, even though the opposition voted against them.

Madam Speaker, the $16 million, the second ex- penditure that we announced, was new funding which will support recruitment hiring of over 350 health-care aides to increase the amount of daily direct care provided for residents; an additional 72 new positions of registered nurses and licensed practical nurses – come on; esta blishment of medical leads to provide leadership and guidance to personal-care-home medical services and infection prevention and control enhance- ments; investment of $1.5 million in tuition supports and direct -care staff recruitment incentives to help build and strengthen the workforce.

So, again, Madam Chairman, $31 million allotted for–to enhance our seniors' lives is something that our government is very, very proud of. So, as I mentioned, we have completed 10 of the 17 recommendations, and we continue to pursue and will fulfill our goals in meeting the other seven recom- mendations, which the department, along with Health, continues to work on. We are certainly challenged, as are all governments of this country, to come to terms with ensuring that we're able to fulfill staff obliga - tions. And we are working very diligently to try to meet that obligation.

But in order to–it's like a house, eh? You build the foundation first and then you work off the foundation to build the rest of the building–and that's what we've done. But, again, the opposi tion didn't support that. They voted against it. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Maloway: Madam Chair, it took the minister probably 10 minutes, anyway, to answer my question, which was how many recom mendations have been completed as of this point, and the answer, evidently, is 10. It doesn't ta ke 10 minutes to say that, and the question is he doesn't know when the next seven will be done.

But, you know, the fact of the matter is that if the government had done taking the actions that it should have done, given what was going on with the pan- demic at the time, we wouldn't be having a Stevenson report at the moment because what happened was that when the pandemic started, it was very apparent from what was happening in New York, in Italy, on the cruise ships. We had lots of warning about who wa s getting sick with the COVID virus, and they were people in the long-term-care homes. And I remember being here and I remember doing–looking at the count every day of how many cases.

There were no cases in New Brunswick for the longest time. There were very limited cases in Manitoba during the first wave. And it wasn't until many, many people died in Italy, in New York, all through the nursing homes, PCH homes right across the country, right across North America. * (15:30) We had very good evidence about who was dying, and the question was, what was the government doing? What should have they been doing at that time? When they could see they had some lead up to this. And the fact of the matter is that it doesn't sound like they were doing much at all.

And Maples is a good example of that, where all the people died in Maples and other homes. And, in fact, we still have COVID cases in some of these homes right now. So, can the minister tell me how many cases we have currently in homes in Manitoba –of ca ses of COVID? And whether they're staff and whether they are residents of the homes. Mr. Johnston: I don't disagree with the member when it comes to his commentary in regards to hopefully being in a position to be able to plan ahead.

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1727 I mean, the seniors strategy was adopted in view of a lot of the demographic infor mation that has existed over the last 20 years. And the previous gov ernment– this is nothing new that the seniors population is aging and needs to be addressed.

But, you know, Madam Chairman, I–when I took on this role, I looked very diligently to find out infor- mation that may have existed by the previous govern- ment to see whether or not I could utilize that and try to incorporate that information that was done through, hopefully, due diligence and incorporate that into some of us. But I–you know what, Madam Chairman? I couldn't find any. I couldn't–I could not find–I couldn't find a seniors plan. I couldn't find anything that addressed the demographic change that was very obvious and coming forward. Their government didn't even look at it, to be quite honest.

However, our government's taken the bull by the horns, and we've initiated the seniors strategy and we continue to address the needs of seniors based on a very challenging si tuation. I mean, COVID and the pandemic was extremely challenging. When our Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) recognized that there needed to be a full study done based on the tragedy –and it was a tragedy at Maples–that action needed to be taken. And she did take action to ensure that the seniors –the Stevenson recommendations, or the Stevenson review took place. And that was initiated by our Premier to take action.

And right now, we are in year 2 of a six -year target plan to address all of the issues of Stevenson, and we will continue to follow through. You know, there are a number of different areas that we are addressing, and I'm happy to share those. If the member parti cularly asks about any particular component, I will be happy to try to answer his questions. In regards to the other question he regard– he asked, the information that he's asking for is really the Health Department's data.

And there is a fair amount of data that would be considered to be some what exclusive to the De partment of Health, a nd I would refer that particular question to the Health Department or we could take that question under advise ment and supply the information further with–as per discussion with the Health Department. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Maloway: Well, the fact of the matter is that two wings of Bethania are in lockdown right now because of COVID. I simply asked the minister to tell me how many other cases of COVID in the homes is active right now.

Like, how many other wings of homes are being locked down? I would think–he's the Seniors Minister; he would know this on a daily basis as to what the COVID situa- tion is, given that all this money that he's talking about spending right now is all about trying to help with the situation with COVID, right? And he doesn't seem to know what is going on in these buildings. You know, I would ask the minister, I know we're talking about–well, I'll just let him give me an answer on that one first as to how many cases of COVID are in the buildings right now. Mr.

Johnston: The member references that our de- partment is charged with a number of initiatives, and the member is correct. I'd indicated a number of responsibilities, a number of initiatives, that this de - partment is taking forward based on its budget, which was a 72 per cent increase to–our government recog- nizes–to help the seniors of Manitoba. And we will continue to do that. But our government is a government of the whole. We work with a number of different de partments to ensure that the needs of Manitobans are met. The Seniors Department certainly is working with Families and Housing.

It's working with Finance. It's working with the Health Department. So, we work with a number of those different de- partments, but as far as getting into the actual detail of those government's responsibilities, we don't always have that infor mation. We can get that infor mation, but the information that we receive is more of a–on a general basis.

What I can indicate to the member is that, cur - rently, there are 25 personal-care homes that do have outbreaks as of April the 5th, and in–to get the actual numbers, I would have to again refer to the Department of Health, who is charged with the –with receiving that data. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. The question from the member from Elmwood. Mr. Maloway: Now, seven years ago, the gov ern- ment of the day, or the party of the day, promised to build 1,200 PCH beds and, of course, seven years have gone by and they actually have less than–they've lost some.

They don't have–not only did they not build the 1,200, but they're minus.

1728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 * (15:40) So, the question I have is, is the gov ernment still planning at some point to build these 1,200 PCH beds? The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you. Excuse me. Mr. Johnston: I–the question in regards to is there going to be expansion of personal-care-home beds in the province of Manitoba, the answer to that is an emphatic yes. We, as a gov ernment, continue to review the needs of seniors in Manitoba, and we have identified and done our due diligence to deter mine what those needs are.

And I can indicate to the member, as I've indicated to the House on a number of occasions, that this government is in planning and design of personal- care-home requirements, and we will be certainly pro- ceeding to fulfill the obligations of increased personal- care-home requirements and needs of Manitobans. So, I'm indicating to the member, yes, we are going to be procee ding with expansion to personal - care-home beds in Manitoba. As a matter of fact, when we do our due diligence, we don't only look at yesterday like I think the opposi- tion does; we look at today and we look at the future.

And we take a great deal of advice, certainly, from the government professionals who identify where needs are within the province of Manitoba. And we deli - berate on those, and we proceed accordingly with the appropriate budgets and funding that we need to do. And we, as a gov ernment, will continue proceeding with that. But as you look at the different scenarios and the different asks of Manitoba and of seniors in Manitoba and you assess what their needs are and what they would like to do, aging in place and home is a very, very significant priority for the people of Manitoba.

So, what we look at is, we not only look at esta - blishing further supports of personal-care homes. We also look at, well, what other innovations are out there? What other opportunities are out there? What are dif- ferent models that are being imple mented in other places? And so we do our due diligence when we look to satisfy the needs of Manitobans. And the member indicates–are we going to proceed with expansion? The answer to that is yes. Are we looking at inno vation further to that expansion? The answer to that is yes.

So, I can tell you, I've heard the Leader of the Opposition, on occasion, indicate that–his support for further expansion of personal -care-home beds. And I'm sure that the Lead er of the Op position will be thrilled, he'll be absolutely thrilled with the innovation that we're also bringing forward with regards to further fulfilling the needs of our seniors that are looking for care. So, rather than have the opposition play politics with this initiative which will be coming forward – I can assure you of that –it's my ex pectation that the opposition will support it. Not play politics with it, but support it.

The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. A question from the member from Elmwood. Mr. Maloway: I'd like to ask the minister, then, how many–he talks about his planning and design phase that he's in right now. How many beds –PCH beds–is he envisioning in this planning and design initiative at the moment? Mr. Johnston: As I've indicated, we are taking advice from the medical professionals who assess the needs of the people of Manitoba and the com munities of Manitoba, and we are acting accordingly.

I had indicated to the member that we will be pro- ceeding with an an nouncement coming forward very soon. And as I mentioned, I'm sure that the member will be very enthusiastically happy with how we're proceeding. And I'm looking forward to announcing the increase in personal -care homes and the beds in Manitoba as well as further innovation. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Maloway: Well, so, I'd like to ask the minister, then, with all this planning and designing that he's doing, is it going to be more or less than 1,200 PCH beds? Mr.

Johnston: You know, the member's asked this question several times and I thought I'd answered it in regards to taking advice from our health professionals and doing our due diligence ensuring that we're fulfilling the needs of Manitobans based on the advice that we have received. We will be bringing forward initiatives that, again, fulfill the needs of Manitobans based on those recommendations that we have received from health professionals. And also, too, we've worked with com- munities to a ssess the op portunities that we will be bringing forward.

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1729 So, we will be making an announcement very soon and I'm sure that the member will be happy to support us. An Honourable Member: Enthusiastic. Mr. Johnston: Enthusiastically, as my colleague indicates. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Any further questions? Mr. Maloway: The point is I understand the minister is in his planning and design phase.

And given that they promised–his government promised 1,200 PCH beds seven years ago, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to tell me whether these projects that he's going to be announcing are 1,200 beds or more than that or less than that. You don't have to tell me what they are, you can just say either you're doing more than 1,200 or you're going to be doing less than 1,200. Mr. Johnston: Certainly, there's been a great deal of due diligence in determining what is required for the people of Manitoba, the seniors of Manitoba.

And we have looked very aggressively in regards to fulfilling those needs and we will be doing it. And, as I mentioned, I can't stress enough that this is not one -dimensional; this is more than one parti - cular answer to the question. In yesteryears, where the members may be, we're looking to pr oceed at other models over and above just PCH initiatives.

So we will be coming forward with an announce- ment that addresses not only fulfilling the goals that we plan to address with the traditional methods, but also, too, we are going to be proceeding to indicate that we are taking some very innovative steps to ensure that we continue to fulfill numbers. And I'm sure that the member will be very happy to support those numbers when we bring them forward. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. * (15:50) Mr. Maloway: Prior to 2016, when the Conservatives were in opposition in this province, they consistently promised a new PCH home in Lac du Bonnet.

And they promised that over several years. Once they got elected in the gov ernment, the PCH -home project disappeared. Can the minister explain to me, like, just where that project is out–is at right now? Is that going to be one of the new ones that's going to be announced shortly, or is it, like, just off the list at the moment? Mr. Johnston: You know, the com munity of Lac du Bonnet is very, very fortunate. They have an excellent, excellent MLA who represents them there– Minister Ewasko–and certainly he has been very, very close to his com munity.

And certainly he's always expressed the needs of his community to our govern- ment. And when this government was deliberating and I had the oppor tunity to address this with my caucus and our Cabinet –many, many MLAs that brought forward a number of needs that they felt that their communities had–we were very forward and open to have discussions about those needs.

As a matter of fact, the member can take a great deal of peace in the fact that we only–not only looked at some of the areas that are certainly represented by our caucus; w e also looked at a number of different areas that were represented by the opposition. I mean, this is not a gov ernment initiative; this is a needs initiative. And as we deliberated on the issue of need for personal-care homes, we have listened to the pro- fessionals who have been advising us in regards to those needs.

And we went through a number of consul tations too, and when I did our seniors strategy, and there were a number of areas that –and oppor tunities for people to express their points of view, which we heard and we listened to. So, we are –we took into consid - eration a number of different issues and a number of different concerns and asks from–number of different communities, and we took–as we took those into consideration, we developed how we were going to proceed with an expansion of personal-care homes. Mr.

Maloway: Can the minister tell me what the current cost would be for construction on a per -bed basis for developing the new PCH homes and beds? Mr. Johnston: I indicated to the member that there is a process. And the process that we are in currently is in regards to planning and design of esta blishing initiatives that we, as a gov ernment, wish to bring forward as per what we will be announcing. But the question that the m ember asks is really still a part of the planning and design process that we continue to work through. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister.

1730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 Mr. Maloway: Well, can the minister confirm that the government is committed to using a P3 funding model to build these new PCHs? The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): The Minister of Seniors and Long-Term Care (Mr. Johnston). Mr. Johnston: I would like some–little more time to answer that question. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): I apologize, a little too eager. Thank you, Minister. Mr. Johnston: At this particular juncture, I think that the same answer in regards to where we are in the process is relevant.

We are in planning and design of the initiatives that we plan to bring forward and announce to the people of Manitoba. I don't think, at this parti cular stage, I would commit to saying that we are and I wouldn't commit to saying that we aren't. I would say that that's part of the process in planning and design, and, ultimately, we will come to terms with how we are going to proceed. So I can't answer the question that the member poses at this particular time because we're not at that stage. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr.

Maloway: So, how many projects is the minister planning to announce when this big announcement occurs? Mr. Johnston: I am extremely enthusiastic about the diligence that our department has done working with the other levels of government, coming to terms with how are we proceeding. And to indicate, at this parti cular time, the com - munities that are being confirmed is not –is really inappropriate. I don't think I'd bring forward the infor- mation before we have further discussions with those communities that will be supporting these initiatives. So, again, it's premature for me to identify them.

The an nouncement, as I indicated, will be coming forward in the near future. And I'm sure that the member will be very sup portive of all of these new initiatives that are coming forward by the government. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Maloway: Well, I'm going to make an assump- tion that the minister will be announcing a number of projects, even though he pretends he doesn't know how many, but that they will be –some of them will look like the new model, or the model in Holland, the low-profile projects. I'm making assumptions like that.

I'm assuming that they're going to be looking at P3 models, here, but I can't be sure of that. And there's a pretty big cost to building these beds, as the minister knows; I've been told as high as $400,000. * (16:00) So I don't know how many the gov ernment will actually make on its own and how many of them will be built under the P3 model, but –and I understand why the minister's holding this off because the reality is they–I guess they haven't decided when the election is going to be and they want to give the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) enough of a chance to go out and announce them one by one, I would guess.

I, you know, I know how it works. But I would expect the minister would be a little more forthright about, you know, the rough, you know, number of beds that he –that they're looking at building. But we're just going to have to wait and see when the Premier gets around to making the announcement. So I would like to ask the member a couple more questions. He met with Mr. Eric De Schepper on Tuesday morning, and I just wondered that –how every thing went with that meeting.

Eric De Schepper is a constit- uent of mine, and he's approached me and has talked to–you know, has met with the minister, and I'm just hoping that every thing is working out fine and that he's been able to help out to solve the issue, right? So I'd just like to know how things went on Tuesday. Mr. Johnston: Just before I address the meeting I had with Mr.

De Schepper s [phonetic], I would like to further address the commentary that the member had made before he asked his final question there, it's a – our senior strategy does address these –he talks about models and differ ent, you know, different scenarios that are out there in different markets, if you will, or different environments. And we have studied those, and within our seniors strategy, we indicate that it's our view that long term, the oppor tunity of creating s eniors villages, campuses is very enviable. And we will continue to work toward that goal and try to ensure that we fulfill

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1731 that. I personally like the model. I think it's a great op- portunity, and it creates a pathway for those seniors who are entering their next cycle of life. I'm happily–I'm one of those folks because I'm over 65 at this parti cular time and I won't speculate on the member's age, but I'm sure that he's very sympathetic to the fact that there is a path of life for seniors. So we –to the member's comment is that we are looking at not only fulfilling the needs of the traditional method, but we are also too looking at innovation in regard to this whole initiative.

The member indicates a commit ment financially and yes, this–it's going to be–there's no question about it, there is definitely an expense to this initiative, but we're prepared to do that and as a gov ernment, we have assessed a need and we are going to fulfill that need. And I come back again to the opposi tion sup- porting these types of initiatives. They're very positive initiatives for seniors and, you know, it's time to put the money where the mouth is. These opportunities are there.

These–what have been discussed, and I look forward to the opposi tion endorsing these types of initiatives because we've talked about them a great deal. In regard to Mr. De Schepper s [phonetic], I'm very–I was very pleased with the discussion I had with Mr. De Scheppers [phonetic]. He is a gentleman, and I indicate that very genuinely. He's a nice guy and he had some very tragic circumstances that he had to deal with, and, certainly, our government does not condone what Mr. De Scheppers [phonetic] had to deal with. And in my discussions with Mr.

De Schepper s [phonetic] I indicated that between our review of the circumstances as well as, I guess more prominently, the review of the situation with the De partment of Health, there has been a great deal of deliberation and discussion to try to ensure that these types of situations don't exist. I was very pleased with Mr. De Schepper's forth- right approach and I was also, too, very, very im - pressed with his will to work together to ensure that these types of situations can be addressed and resolved so that they don't occur again. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr.

Maloway: I–as the MLA for the area, the imme- diate area around Holy Family, I do get a number of inquiries as a lot of my members or my voters, you know, end up moving to that facility after a certain age. And we –my office hears a lot from –especially from the families of people in that particular building and other buildings in our area. And part of the process, I think, for –you know, we are in favour of a seniors advocate. I think that would be a good thing for the minister to consider and I know he's–claims he's got his own advocate some - where in the process.

But I would ask him also to consider the idea of having a council, a family council within each of the PCHs and each of the homes, where you would have perhaps quarterly meetings, right, of this com mittee. You would have a staff member on there, you would have a representative of the personal-care-home resi- dents, right, the –perhaps even one member from the residents themselves, but certainly the families of the residents. You could ha ve repre sentatives from the operators of the homes themselves. But, in addition, I'm thinking that might be a good idea to have somebody from the de partment.

Like, because if you have these com mittees meeting in the homes, that's all well and good, you know, have meetings perhaps four times a year. But if you had a staff member from your department that was assigned to show up, that would pipe you in as to what's going on in the buildings, give you a better advanced notice, particularly when COVID came around, right.

You would know right away each home –for example, Maples, you would know that they're –how many outbreaks are in there and you would get right to the bottom of the problem, I think, a lot easier, as opposed to listening to the owners of Revera, in that case, but the management of a home and the conflicting views that you will–probably would have got from them during that time. Because there was hysteria everywhere during the–during that COVID outbreak. So that might be something you would consider, in addition to doing whatever you're doing in terms of the advocate.

The advocate has some advantages and the fact is –but they're in a separate building, far, far away, right. You need troops on the ground. And if you've got some sort of structure within there involving the management, involving the repre- sentatives of the families and one of your own people to show up there to the–at least once in a while to the odd meeting, you would know right away what was going on in there. * (16:10)

1732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 So I would hope he would consider that idea and it could be worked on. I'm–I don't know whether you need legislation, because that could be arranged too, but whether you need legis lation or not, or whether you could just simply do it through the ministry. But it would cut down, I think, in some of the calls that my office gets, you know, and my assist ant is here, so he could tell you how many calls he gets. And, I mean, obviously, since COVID came about, we're getting more calls than we were before, you know.

So for many, many years, we would hear from the families about what was going on in the Holy Family Home and, you know, most of it was good; there was the odd, you know, the odd bad comment. But we weren't, like, being forced into inter - vening, as has been the case since COVID came about. You know, the people are very upset in there because, you know, we–there's a downside to putting people into isolation. And right today, we have evidently two–yes, two shutdowns or two lockdowns in one of the homes in northeast Winnipeg at the moment, right? So– The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Member's time has expired.

Mr. Johnston: I'll take the member's sug gestion under advise ment. You know, as I recognize –as I think the member does–that as we went through the pandemic challenge, there were a number of areas that–support areas that can be reviewed and enhanced. It would be my understanding that currently, right now, that there is regulation in place that does indicate that there has to be councils that are established within personal-care homes. Those councils –the makeup of those councils aren't exclusive to families. [interjection] Yes, it's residents of the facility that are usually on the councils or make that up.

But there's no structure requirement. The require- ment is that there are councils that represent the residents. So –but in –but to your point, I will, you know, I'll take that into consideration. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Maloway: I would l ike to give the chair to –or give the time, 15 minutes' time to the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). And he's ready. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question is, in the funding allocation which the minister has received this year, is there money for addi tional staffing for personal-care homes?

And in the vacancy rate that was provided, if there was additional staffing, is that vacancy rate before or after allowing for the ad- ditional staffing? Mr. Johnston: Answer to the member's questi on is that the money that had been allotted does include the vacancy rate. The extra money that is being indicated would be over and above. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, the vacancies, I presume, are in staff in personal-care homes.

And that being the case, where there is a vacancy, can the operator of the personal -care home use that money that's sitting there and is meant for a staff person? Can the operator use that money for other purposes? * (16:20) Mr. Johnston: I'm interpreting the member's question is that the allotment of money through Stevenson, as indicated by the staffing announcement or the funding announcement, does get allocated to staffing. That also, too, may, in fact, include agency staffing. They would have the discretion to be able to fulfill their needs based on that.

But I think where the member was going was that is that money that's being allotted going to staff versus some other initiative. And the answer is through Stevenson, i t's going to staffing in the different components there, the different criteria that has been presented. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, the minister mentioned that there's 25 personal-care homes with outbreaks as of April the 5th. I'm curious as to the current policy.

Is the –somebody who's been in contact with a case of a person who's had COVID, is there any quarantine steps, and does this result in a shortage of staff, in some instances, because people have to quarantine because they've exposed to a person with COVID? Mr. Johnston: In answer, there are protocols that are in place in regards to how personal -care homes deal with outbreaks, deal with their residents that do–have wound up with COVID or, for that matter, influenza.

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1733 That would be quite signi ficant and quite serious, as I'm sure the member realizes. So I would answer that based–his question based on that –assuming he's talking about personal -care homes and are there protocols in place to deal wit h outbreaks that occur within those. Yes, there are protocols that do exist. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Mr.

Gerrard: The reason I had asked that is that, when we were in the heat of the COVID pandemic, that if somebody had been exposed, a staff person had been exposed to a patient with COVID, then there was a requirement that the staff person go quarantined for a while, and that resulted in shortages of staff. And I was just wondering whether that's changed. I want to just switch slightly and focus on the Stevenson report, and I'd like spe cifically to ask you about the recommendations which are not complete as of today.

And if you could list those recommendations and tell us what the plans are to complete those in each case. Mr. Johnston: I'll address the quarantine issue that the member brings forward first. There are protocols in place in regard to how the Department of Health directs quarantine for staff. It's my understanding that there isn't any quarantine issues right now with staff. Does that com promise the overall operations?

I would say that it's fair to say that there are some challenges that are brought forward based on staff not being able to do their jobs because they have been infected by viruses, but I can't indicate what the actual numbers are, although, I'm of the under standing that there isn't any sig nificant situations that exist right now in personal-care homes where staff quarantine is a significant issue. In regard to the Stevenson recommendations, as I think I indicated to the member of Elmwood, we are proceeding to address the recom mendations that are not fulfilled right now.

I would indicate to the member that the primary challenge that we have in regard to implementing the recommendations is based on staffing ratios, and that's due to, again, the challenge to be able to bring a staffing implement–a full staffing implement forward. We are currently continuing to address those needs, and we are climbing. And I think, as t he member has asked me in the House a couple of times, are–in regard to the hours resident ratios, and–I can indicate to the member that we initially started out on a 3.6 basis and now, consistently, we are at a 3.7.

There are some venues that are up to the 3.8, but that's not–I wouldn't indicate with accuracy that that is across the board right now because it's not. But there are some personal-care homes that do have a 3.8 ratio. * (16:30) So it's our goal–it was our department's goal to try to come t o terms with the 3.8- resident-hour ratio by the end of this year, and we are on track pursuing that goal. But I can't confirm that our forecasts indicate that we're going to get there by the end of the year, but that's our goal.

I would indicate to the member that further to–I'm sure his question will be, is the department interested or is the de partment trying to fulfill a standard of ultimately a four or a 4.1 ratio. And we're in the second year of a four –of a six -year program or a six -year initiative to satisfy the needs of the Stevenson report. And it's our plan to get to a 4.1 within six years. There's a lot of variables that may be–may affect that. And, again, if we can get there earlier, then, ultimately, our goal would be to get there earlier. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you. Mr.

Maloway: I was noting in my notes here, but not only the notes, but I know the minister did announce a version of the old Critical Home Repair Program. And I remember, back in 1976–so it probably started around '73, something like that–but up until at least '77, when Sterling Lyon gov ernment won, the government of the day had a–we called it critical home repair, and it was, I think, up to $3,000 per senior. And a lot of the homes were in the North E nd, you know, and they–it was for steps and things like that, to keep people in their homes longer.

And I always thought that was a wonderful pro- gram, but it–then it disappeared under Sterling Lyon. And then, of course, it came back under Neighbourhoods Alive! And then it disappeared again, I guess when Brian Pallister came around. And then, surprise, surprise, miracles do happen; here it comes back. And the minister's calling it some- thing else, but it's essentially the same program. So it's kind of int eresting how, you know –there's really not too many new ideas out there, you know? We just simply borrow them, change them a little bit, call them something else and reintroduce them as our own.

1734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 So if the minister has some comments on that, go right ahead. And, otherwise, I think we're ready for the final resolutions. Mr. Johnston: The member's right. A good idea is a good idea. And home modifications to help seniors age at home longer is certainly something that our government is extremely supportive of. We recognize–again, I'd indicated earlier that we recognize, based on all the consul tations that we've done with seniors and stakeholders, that people want to age at home as long as they can. That's very apparent.

And, therefore, there's a number of initiatives that our government is proceeding with to try to accom - plish that, and the home modification program that we've announced works towards that goal. As well as partnering and working with Habitat for Humanity, we announced a support of $450,000 in working with Habitat for Humanity for–that program was more for lower income Manitobans. The home modifica - tion program that the member references is for not only low -income Manitobans but middle -income Manitobans.

So we –I agree with the me mber; I think we're both agreeing that it's a good program and other gov- ernments have done it of all colours, and we're hoping that the people of–seniors of Manitoba utilize it to the degree that they can. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Thank you, Minister. Minister–or the member from Elmwood. Mr. Maloway: I move that –[interjection]–oh, sure. Okay. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Okay. Hearing no further questions, we will now proceed to considera- tion of the reso lutions.

At this point, w e will allow virtual members to unmute their mics so they can respond to the question. I will now call resolution 34.2:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $92,577,000 for Seniors and Long- Term Care, Seniors and Long-Term Care, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for these Estimates is item 1(a)–excuse me–the minister's salary, contained in resolution 34.1. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Maloway: I move that line item 34.1(

a) be amended so that the Minister of Seniors and Long-Term Care's salary be reduced to $21,000. Motion presented. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): The motion is in order. Are there any questions or comments on the motion? Is the committee ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Shall the motion pass? Some Honourable Members: No. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): I hear a nay. All those opposed–or, I hear a yea, only. [interjection] Okay. All of those opposed, please–[interjection] Oh.

Voice Vote The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): All of those in favour, please say aye. Some Honourable Members: Aye. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Okay, all of those opposed to the motion, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): In my opinion, the Nays have it. The motion is accordingly defeated. Thank you. * * * The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): This completes– [interjection]–not quite? Okay. [interjection] Okay. Resolution 34.1:

be it RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $694,000 for Seniors and Long- Term Care, Executive, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the De partment of Seniors and Long-Term Care. The hour being 4:39, what is the will of the com- mittee? Some Honourable Members: Committee rise. The Acting Chairperson (Cathy Cox): Committee rise.

April 20, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1735 ROOM 255 TAX CREDITS * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Brad Michaleski): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of Tax Credits. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Finance): No. Mr. Chairperson: No? That's okay. We thank the minister for that. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Okay, no. Seeing nothing, we thank the member for that. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, if he'd like.

Okay, according to our rule 78(16), during the consideration of the de partmental Estimates, ques - tioning for each department shall proceed in a global manner, with ques tions put separately on all reso lu- tions once the official opposi tion critic indicates that questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Seeing no questions, we will move on to resolu - tions. And there's one resolution. Resolution 33.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $105,885,000 for Tax Credits, Tax Credits and Fees, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to.

This concludes the Estimates of Tax Credits. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is for Emergency Expenditures. EMERGENCY EXPENDITURES Mr. Chairperson (Brad Michaleski): As previously stated, this

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of Emergency Expenditures. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Finance): No. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for that. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? We thank the member for that. At this time, if the minister would like, staff can join us at the table.

According to our rule 78(16), during the consid - eration of de partmental Estimates, questioning for each depart ment shall proceed in a global manner, with questions put separately on all resolu tions once the official opposition critic indicates that questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. There is no questions, and we will move on to resolutions. Moving on to resolution 27.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $100,000,000 for Emergency Expenditures, Emergency Expenditures, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to.

This completes the Estimates of Eme rgency Expenditures. ENABLING APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson (Brad Michaleski): As previously stated, this

section of the Com mittee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of enabling expenditures. Does the–I'm sorry. I'll start that again. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of Enabling Appropriations. Does the honour able minister have an opening statement? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Finance): No. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for that. Does the critic from the official op position have an opening statement? Mr. Adrien Sala (St. James): No. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the official op position critic for that. At this time, again, we will ask the minister's staff to join the table, if needed. According to our rule 78(16), during the consid - eration of de partmental Estimates, questioning for each depart ment shall proceed in a global manner,

1736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2023 with questions put separately on all resolu tions once the official opposition critic indicates that questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. There is no questions. We will now move on to resolutions. Resolution 26.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $948,911,000 f or Enabling Appro priations, Internal Service Adjustments, Contingencies and Limited-Term Funding, for the fiscal year ended March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 26.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $40,000,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Green and Carbon Reduction Fund, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 26.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $215,238,000 for Enabling Appro priations, Capit al Assets – Internal Service Adjustments, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 26.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to His Majesty a sum not exceeding $107,395,000 for Enabling Appro priations, Other Reporting Entities Capital Investment – Contingencies, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2024. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of Enabling Appropriations. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Com mittee of Su pply is for the Department of Families. Shall we briefly recess to allow the opportunity to prepare for the next commencement? [Agreed] We will recess. The committee recessed at 2:48 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 3:08 p.m. FAMILIES Mr. Chairperson (Brad Michaleski): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Families. Does the honour able minister have an opening statement? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Families): I do. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Families. Ms. Squires: So, I'm pleased to introduce the '23 -24 Department of Families budget. Before I begin I want to acknowl

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-5-45b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 5th hansardpdf 45b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ae741d1469820dc62e01ef15ca35c3f48244b22c

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