April 21,

SOCIAL SERVICES

COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Hutchings): Good evening, everybody. My name is Keith Hutchings,

MHA for Ferryland and Chair of the Social Services Estimates Committee. This

evening, we will be hearing the Estimates of Child, Youth and Family Services.

Before we get started, I will go to my right and ask the Committee members to

introduce themselves.

MR. YOUNG: Wallace Young, MHA, District of St. Barbe.

MR. RIDGLEY: Bob Ridgley, MHA, St. John's North.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, MHA, the cultural District of Port au Port.

MR. KEVIN PARSONS: Kevin Parsons, MHA, District of Cape St. Francis.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, MHA, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

There are two of our staff here with me.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. MORGAN: Ivan Morgan, Researcher.

MR. WOODMAN: Ron Woodman, Legislative Assistant.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Before I turn it over to the minister and her staff, there are just a couple

of reminders: when speaking, if the officials could identify themselves each

time before they speak, for the benefit of Hansard. As well, we will see how it

goes; we can speak in fifteen minute intervals back and forth, if that is okay,

or we will just see how it goes, I guess.

What I will do, Minister, I will turn it over to you. I will ask you to, or

you can, or your officials can introduce themselves. Then you are free to make

an opening statement on the Estimates, or we can go right to questions.

MS BURKE: Okay.

Joan Burke, Minister of Child, Youth and Family Services.

I will just ask my officials to introduce themselves.

MR. GRANDY: Paul Grandy, Director of Finance.

MS MACDONALD: Sheree MacDonald, Deputy Minister of Child, Youth and

Family Services.

MS HILLIER: Susanne Hillier, Director of Communications.

MS JEANS: Jennifer Jeans, Assistant Deputy Minister.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MS BURKE: Okay, I have no opening comments.

CHAIR: Okay.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

To that, we will go to our Committee, okay?

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I did not expect to be the first one to speak, but here I go. Thank you very

much, minister, and your staff, for being here to be with the Committee this

evening.

I have to tell you, I have an anomaly in my office I do not know if anybody

else has it but I have a staff person who gets completely excited by

Estimates. Ivan has not been I mean, trying to tie him down almost, because he

gets so excited over Estimates. I wanted you all to know that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: Yes, embarrassing him.

Minister, I am not going to do every single line. There are some that I do

want to ask some questions on, then I have some questions arising from the

Budget. They may be more they are not policy, but questions of getting more

information arising from the Budget.

Before going into the lines, I was wondering, knowing that the department, as

a ministry, is new in terms of having a minister separate for Child, Youth and

Family Services, and therefore knowing that there was not, in last year's

Budget, a

section that was called Child, Youth and Family Services, I am

wondering, with regard to the budgeted items for 2009-2010 and the revised items

for the same fiscal year, you obviously must have done some extrapolation of

expenditures and revenues as they happened inside of Health and Community

Services. Is there a place now where you actually have a document that shows

where the two columns under the Budget and the Revised Budget for 2009-2010

exist? Is there a place where you actually have that in a document that could be

given to us?

MS BURKE: You mean other than what we have here in front of us?

MS MICHAEL: Well, my point is that I cannot go to last year's budget and

find those line items because it was part of the whole Health and Community

Services.

MS BURKE: It was, yes. This was the amount of money under Health's budget

that would have been allocated for Child, Youth and Family Services, so it is

reflected in this document. The information came out of Health, and that would

be their numbers there.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, but that is documentation that is other than what is in

the budget documentation for Health. I do not think that they actually have a

section under it that said Child, Youth and Family Services. That is why I am

wondering how the figures were arrived at.

MR. GRANDY: Health developed the budgeted column was what was

previously with the Department of Health, plus there was a $2 million transition

fund that was established in last year's budget for the department. So those two

amounts combined make up what the 2009-2010 Budget column would represent. The

revised estimates as well came from Health, and based on expenditures up to the

point in time that we were required to submit the revised numbers.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

I would imagine, and I do not know, and I do not know if you know, minister:

Would Health have done that every year that you actually would have been able to

find documentation?

MS BURKE: (Inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: No, you would not have. So, I guess that is what I am asking.

When Health did this, did they come up with a document that they gave to you in

the new ministry in order to come up with these two columns?

MR. GRANDY: This would be the document. We do not have a line by line

detail of those budget numbers, no.

MS MICHAEL: So Health just gave you asked for figures and they gave you

these figures.

MR. GRANDY: They were produced in this Estimates document, that is right.

MS MICHAEL: I see. Okay, thank you very much.

I just wanted to ask that up front to sort of get a sense of where the

figures came from. If we wanted to find out if there is more detail, we would

have to go to Health and ask them if they had a document. Okay, thank you so

much.

Then I will just start with the line items. Obviously, there is not a lot I

can question because of the fact of the new ministry, but when we come over to

section 2.1.01 - and this is where it is curious for me - under 2.1.01, line

01., Salaries, the budgeted line item says $1,110,700. We have a difference

between the budget and the revision. Not a huge one, but there is a difference

between the Budget and the revision, $358,400. Then we have the new estimate,

which is basically the same. Why the difference between the budgeted and the

revision? Do you have that information? It is 2.1.01.

MS BURKE: So you are asking why Salaries were at $1.1 million and down to

$752,000; is that the question?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, there is a $358,400 difference between the Budget and

the Revised.

MS BURKE: There were a number of positions in the work chart as it

existed at that time that would have been vacant, which would have meant the

reduction.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. You obviously see them coming in this year. Are they

filled yet, or will they be filled?

MS BURKE: There is going to be a new organizational chart, because this

chart - the positions that would have been there would have been in the setup of

having the department plus the regional health authorities. There will be a new

organizational chart for the line department that will be coming in this year.

So some positions may be somewhat different, it will depend on how we build the

department, but it will not be status quo that we have these different regional

authorities coming into a line department and staying status quo.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Now, we do have somewhat of a chart here that we received from the Department

of Health and Community Services. Is this a transitional chart, do you know?

MS BURKE: I have never seen that, actually.

MS MICHAEL: You have never seen that?

MS BURKE: No.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. It is an interesting chart, in that it has it is

Health and Community Services Organizational Structure, and the new department

is the green, and that is called the Child, Youth and Family Services. Under

that is the minister's office, the deputy minister's office and everything that

is part of the deputy minister's office. Then there is another section, Children

and Youth Services Branch, and it has the names of staff and phone numbers, et

cetera. You have not seen this?

MS BURKE: I have just been told, that is our phone directory. It would

not be our -

MS MICHAEL: That is all it is, is a phone directory?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, because that is not how it was presented to us. So this

is just a phone directory?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. When do you think, because it will be helpful - when do

you think you will have the organizational chart ready? Do you have any goal set

for that?

MS BURKE: It should roll out over the entire fiscal year, that we will be

ready to take, region by region, because the legislation we passed in the House

last spring allowed us to take it program by program or region by region, or

everyone at the one time. Based, I suppose, on the consultation and the

logistics, we cannot do it program by program but we will be doing it region by

region.

MS MICHAEL: Right. I think what I am going to do is rather - because it

is so boring when you just do line items. I am going to use some contact

questions in this context then.

So I am it is not that I am confused. I am just trying to get a clear

handle on - right now everything is transition, and at the moment Health and

Community Services is delivering these services. Now that will continue, will

it, that Health and Community Services - the RHAs will deliver these services?

MS BURKE: Until they transition to the new department.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. When that happens they will no longer be doing the

delivery of services?

MS BURKE: Right.

MS MICHAEL: No matter what the services, any of the services that are

identified here under Children and Youth Services Branch, all of those will then

be delivered eventually by your department, or by your ministry.

MS BURKE: Anything that comes under the Child, Youth and Family Services

Act, the Child Care Services Act, or the Adoptions Act. If there are other

services there that are under other acts, they would not come with us.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: And Youth Corrections.

MS MICHAEL: Do you have a sense of I understand you are doing it region

by region how long it is going to take for that full transition to take place?

MS BURKE: It will take the full year.

MS MICHAEL: It will take the full year, but hopefully by the end of this

year you will have it fully in place.

MS BURKE: That is the goal.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that is great. That is helpful.

If we come down under 03., Transportation and Communications; again, there

was quite a difference between the budgeted amount and the revised amount,

$133,500. Then the estimate for this year is a fair bit more than what was

estimated last year. Can we get an idea of what is happening under

Transportation and Communications and why the up and down? I do understand you

are in transition and it may be hard to answer some of these questions.

MS BURKE: There was less travel last year than what was anticipated, and

a lot of that was primarily because we were in transition and trying to see our

priorities and what we needed to do. So it was more of a time when we were

trying to build from within at that point. We feel that this year, with the

transition, that we will probably be having more significant travel even just

trying to roll out the new organizational plan and trying to ensure that the

appropriate transition happens. So we assume that we will have people moving and

working and hands-on in the different areas this year, a lot more so than what

we would have had in the last fiscal year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. I mean, that makes sense, obviously.

When we come down to 06, under the same

section yes, Professional Services

first of all, 05. and 06. - under Professional Services there is a major

difference between what was budgeted and what was revised. It looks like there

was a plan to have something provided there under Professional Services that did

not happen, and that is not going to happen because the estimate is only

$50,000. So what is the difference? What is it that did not happen under

Professional Services?

MS BURKE: Under Professional Services in the Budget, it was basically due

- it was lower than anticipated, but when we look at the budget for this year,

and if you look to 1.2.02 under Corporate Services, under Professional Services

we have estimated what we would need for Professional Services for this year,

and have that included there.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so that is 05. under 1.2.02.

MS BURKE: Right. The main bulk of our Professional Services that probably

would have otherwise been reflected in that number has now come over under that

new heading.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. What would those Professional Services be, minister?

MS BURKE: Those Professional Services would be I know $100,000 is to

continue with the Clinical Services Review. There is money there for the Foster

Family Association to do their survey.

There is $100,000, as I said, for the Clinical Services Review; the

caregiver's survey, which is foster families, $36,000; the national outcome

measures, $10,000; and for the federal-provincial-territorial directors it is

$1,200.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

Then back to 2.1.01 again and 06., which is Purchased Services. We have a

similar thing in that the Purchased Services were going to be $208,800 and they

were only $51,500. So a large difference there of $157,300. The estimated for

this year is $110,000, which is still less than what was estimated last year,

the original estimation. What is happening under that? There is a lot of up and

down there.

MS BURKE: Yes. That would include things there, items such as

advertising, printing, repairs and maintenance, furniture and equipment rentals,

office space, meeting rooms and other purchased services.

We spent $51,500 and when we did the budget for this year we felt that the

$208,800 was just too high, just too much money in that line. We did not cut it

right back to the $51,500 but we thought at $110,000 we would still be able to

meet our needs there.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Now I am sort of coming back to my original question.

If you know that, then there must have been some information from Health and

Community Services that gave you a basis for that. Besides just receiving the

column, you must have had some idea of what the $51,500 was spent on, for

example.

MS BURKE: Yes, we do. The printing was $33,810. The resource materials

were $11, 349. Food was $1,270. Room rentals were $675. French translation was

$406. Taxis $94, and the unexpended amount there was $3,895. This is to the end

of February as opposed to the full year, so it would have come to $51,500. So

there was a breakdown as to how that was spent.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. I am assuming that you must have had breakdowns like

that for some of the other items as well.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. So you did receive more than just the columns, you

received breakdowns of expenditures as well.

MS BURKE: Well, when I would have went through the numbers I would have

asked: How was this spent?

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under Allowances and Assistance - this is just obviously straightforward. The

Grants and Subsidies would be the grants that would go to the family resource

centres, is that correct? Number 10 I am looking at now under 2.1.01.

MS BURKE: Yes, that would have been that plus others.

MS MICHAEL: What else would be under the Grants and Subsidies?

MS BURKE: There would be money there for child care services for

Daybreak, Choices for Youth, community youth networks, Daybreak, WayPoints, John

Howard Society, health promotion and wellness, family resource centres, group

homes, like the Pine Heights Group Home, family resource centres, infant care

program with the western school district, the Bay St. George youth assessment

centre, the Nain group home, Labrador group home.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Minister, I wonder would it be possible for us to

receive a copy of that breakdown of the grants and subsidies?

MS BURKE: Sure, yes.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

Just above the Grants and Subsidies, 09. Allowances and Assistance, does that

include then everything else that is under 2.1.01 in terms of support services

to children and youth, and residential services, child care services? What is

covered under the Allowances and Assistance?

MS BURKE: That would be child care as opposed to child protection under

that heading.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that is where the child care is found.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you.

Well, I think I have taken fifteen minutes just about, so I will take a

break.

Thank you, Minister.

CHAIR: Okay, the next committee member.

Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Minister, and your

officials for being here this evening.

My name is Yvonne Jones; I am the MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair. With me

is Joy Buckle, who is a researcher for Child, Youth and Family Services and

Health and Community Services in our office.

I have a couple of questions, just to pick up on where the Leader of the NDP

left off. First of all, in terms of the transition piece in the department: Is

it my understanding that the regional health authorities will not play a role in

the delivery of programs and services through your department once the

transition has occurred?

MS BURKE: That is correct.

MS JONES: Okay. So even programs such as the family resource centres, now

child and youth networks, which your department is obviously funding under

section 2.1.01 of the Estimates, they are all right now co-ordinated through the

regional health authorities. So even those particular entities will change as

well?

MS BURKE: Well, the family resource centres will come under the line

department but the community youth networks are actually funded through Youth

Services at HRLE. We may provide some funding but under a line department we

will not be there may be some grants or subsidies depending, I suppose, on our

role and if they meet some of our criteria and get funding, but we will not

actually be funding the community youth networks. I am not saying they will not

get some funding from us, but we will not be their primary source of funding.

Again, that is with HRLE.

MS JONES: Okay, all right. Who is overseeing the transition of this

department? Is there a transition team in place, or how is it being handled?

MS BURKE: Yes, there is a transition team in place. We have a number of

people, obviously the minister and deputy minister, and then we have an

Assistant Deputy Minister, Jennifer Jeans; Communications Director, Susanne

Hillier; Paul Grandy is the Director of Finances. We also have a leadership team

of Barbara Cull and Wanda Lundrigan overseeing the Clinical Services Review; we

have a Director of Human Resources.

We have put together a team to help us look at the finances, the programming,

the HR piece of it, and over the last year in the block of funding that we had

in last year's Budget, that is what we used to build a team and that will

actually be the team to help us do the transition.

MS JONES: Okay. So currently, then, those individuals would still be

carrying on their regular duties within your department as

MS BURKE: No, they would be full-time in the department.

MS JONES: They had to be seconded to do this?

MS BURKE: Well, not necessarily seconded. Some are in contracts. It will

depend on the position, but the transition team of HR and that, right now we

have a transition team set up until we are developed as a department and then

will come under the central agency of how the government department would run.

Some of them are more temporary or contractual. Some, I suppose, could be

seconded, depending on what position they came from.

MS JONES: Yes. Will they also oversee the transition of the staffing

component from Health and Community Services, the regional health authorities

and so on, to the department?

MS BURKE: Our whole, I guess, piece of work that we have worked on up to

this point although I do not want to make this sound as if this is the only

thing we have been doing but what we have worked on up to this point and where

we will go over the next twelve months is to see the transition actually happen.

So that is the main focus of what we are doing right now.

MS JONES: Okay. How is the organizational model for the new department

going to be organized or arranged? Do you have a model now that you are looking

at that you are ready to implement at this stage?

MS BURKE: Yes, we have a model that we will begin implementing. It is one

that we are going to go region by region - although it is developed, it can

still be somewhat fluid because we want to make sure that when we do it, we do

it right.

The model itself is going to be based with an emphasis on the front line. It

is going to be basically ensuring that we have our basics right. When we met

with the social workers over the summer we had the opportunity to meet with all

the staff, but in particular the social workers. We went to fifty - out of the

fifty-two offices we missed two offices, being Conne River and Fogo Island,

because there was no staff there at the time. There was not much sense in going

down and talking to ourselves.

One thing that the staff indicated was they felt that at certain points they

did not have access to a supervisor. Working in the front line, of course, and

having to make the critical decisions in certain time frames that when we

build this new org chart the emphasis will be on the front line, ensuring that

they have manageable workloads, that there will be a team approach and that

there will be access to a supervisor.

MS JONES: Okay. Under the new department, is there going to be any

changes to the case management system? Without getting into a whole lot of

details, I am sure you have heard from social workers out there as well that

they have some issues with the current system and they would like to have some

changes made. I am just wondering if you are there yet in terms of what the new

system will look like or how you are going to create some efficiencies there.

MS BURKE: I guess what you are asking about is the IT system because case

management will always be part of this type of work.

MS JONES: Yes.

MS BURKE: We will always have to do running records, risk assessments,

collateral contacts and documentation. The actual IT system, and part of our

budget announcement was that we will be implementing a new system to replace

what they call CRMS at this time. That will take three to four years to actually

develop and roll out. When we did our consultation this summer, plus the

business review of the program, we certainly have indication that we need a new

program there. Like I said, that has been part of our budget announcement. You

will not see the numbers here because it is actually in the OCIO budget because

it is an IT system.

MS JONES: Okay. In the Estimates, under

section 1.2.03, you talk about

Program Development and Planning. The budget that you have there now, that is

for the entire transition process, is it? That is all about getting the new

department started, putting new programs in place, putting the right people in

place, or are there other initiatives included under that $2.1 million that you

are budgeting this year?

MS BURKE: That is not necessarily the transiency. It is hard to separate

the regular work from the transition work because as much as we are doing the

transition, the regular work of the department also has to continue. So, under

there, those salaries would include our directors, our management, our program

consultants, our program staff, people who are now working in headquarters.

There was a number of people who worked in the regional health authorities but

there was also a number of staff at the headquarters of Health and Community

Services who now will be headquarter staff of Child, Youth and Family Services.

So, they will continue. There may be managers of adoption or child care and

program consultants. That would be reflected in that number.

MS JONES: In terms of physically placing people, I guess you will have

your own offices or suites of offices in your own physical department, will you?

Will you remain affiliated to the health authorities and hospitals, or how are

you doing that?

MS BURKE: Right now, it will not be our mission to go out and separate

everyone and ensure that there is a physical separation. For the most part,

staff will stay where they are. We will sort out the leases or the rental or

however we do that, or there may be times or places where that is not possible,

or there is an opportunity to move.

I will give an example. Grand Falls-Windsor is in the process now where their

Health is moving out of the provincial building. That will allow us to - not

move with Health, because there is no need for us to move into a new building if

there is adequate space in the government building as it is. So, there may be

some isolated examples where there will be a physical separation fairly soon.

Over the years, who knows? Maybe we will separate in different areas, but right

now, when we met with the staff, most of the feedback that we had across the

Province was people were quite satisfied where they were and felt that a move

was unnecessary.

MS JONES: Okay.

I have some questions with regard to the youth mental health piece. We have

seen a lot of issues with youth mental health in the last two years in the

Province. I would just like to ask how some of the services might have changed

or been enhanced for children and youth under mental health services.

MS BURKE: We will not take mental health services for youth. That will

still be a health issue as physical health and mental health issues will remain

with Health.

MS JONES: Okay.

MS BURKE: As far as say access to psychiatrists or in-patient services or

anything like that, that will remain as a health issue because I guess the

bottom line is lots of children may have mental health issues but may not

necessarily fall under Child, Youth and Family Services clientele.

MS JONES: So even the piece around the new youth mental health facility

and all that will be still handled through the Department of Health and

Community Services?

MS BURKE: Right, because it would be considered a general health issue.

The families who come under this department will be dealing with issues of

mistreatment or abuse within the families. The mental health issues are not

limited to those families. So it would be considered a general health issue and

will remain with Health.

MS JONES: What about the Whitbourne correctional facility then? Will that

now come under your department or will that remain with Justice?

MS BURKE: That will remain with Justice, but we will take on youth

corrections, community supervision end of it. As it is in Health right now, it

will be the same configuration, although we will come under the line department,

but the secure custody will stay with Justice.

MS JONES: Okay. You will just assume the role and responsibility that the

Department of Health had?

MS BURKE: In corrections.

MS JONES: Yes, in corrections.

I have some questions around the Alternative Living Arrangements. Can you

tell me how many children in the Province are now in ALAs or ILAs?

MS BURKE: I have the stats for 2009 as opposed to, say, the stat for

today.

MS JONES: Yes. No, that will be fine.

MS BURKE: The average in an ALA for 2009, a number, was eighty-six.

MS JONES: Yes, and that would include ILAs too -

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: Okay.

MS BURKE: Okay. ILAs, sixteen - this is not the average; this is the

number who went through last year who was in these facilities. Some may be

double counted because it depends if they moved from one to another. Sixteen ILA

placements, sixteen out-of-province placements, and eighty-six in ALAs.

MS JONES: You said that you were looking at the ALAs in terms of some

kind of standardized process or licensing requirements, I do not know -

regulatory process anyway. Has that been completed? Are you still working at it?

MS BURKE: Yes. We are going to be doing, as part of the work this year to

provide services for children and youth - we need to develop a residential

strategy for children. We need a continuum of services that when children are

taken from their home or have to be removed from the home, that we have a

continuum of services where we can meet their needs.

The bottom line is the best form of care or residential treatment that we can

provide for a child would be a foster home. However, not all children or youth

are suitable at different times for foster homes, probably because of presenting

behaviours or needs or whatever. We also have to develop what is known as a

therapeutic foster home, which is like a step above a regular foster home for

the needs that they can meet.

We also have to look at the possibility of group homes for some young people,

and depending on their needs, we will still probably have to look at

out-of-province placements for certain treatment programs. Then, as we build in,

in the Province, our own mental health facility for young people or an

addictions centre, we can certainly look at them into our continuum as well.

What we want to do is to be able to develop a continuum that will meet the

needs of children, that are accessible because it is no good to talk about a

continuum if we do not have the services set up. It is like talking about

therapeutic foster homes. We do not have a definition and there are none in the

Province, so they are not available. We have to work on that.

What we would do is move away from the ALAs because as far as an appropriate

placement that we feel would best meet the needs of a child, these ALAs should

be removed from our continuum. Now, if we have to use one on an emergency basis,

I guess we will have to, but it is not something that we want to further develop

and regulate and move into that direction as in this is a suitable placement for

young people, we want to move away from it.

MS JONES: I guess the thing is to get rid of them you need to fill the

gaps. If you have eighty-six to 100 children going through ALAs and ILAs in a

current year, what is the alternative if foster homes are not available? My

concern has been that there have been no standards or regulations around those

particular facilities.

From what I understand, tomorrow I can go out and become an ALA operator. I

can buy a house. I can do a deal with a regional health authority. I can take

kids in when they do not have any other placements for them. From what I

understand, there is no real licensing process that would permit me from doing

that.

MS BURKE: There is no continuum; there is no policy on residential

programs. One thing, when the whole services went to the regional health

authorities, everything got broken down into regions. There is no provincial

analysis on foster homes and how many and where we need them. Some communities

have lots and some communities have none.

It was interesting to talk to the social workers of why there are none in

their community. Some told me, point blank, there are none here and that there

never will be; we are not looking for any. They have children who are in other

regions. For us to depend on individual social workers to think that that is our

strategy and that is how we are going to attract homes we need to develop that

continuum and we need to do it on a provincial level. We need the appropriate

analysis done, the identification of where these homes need to be.

The other thing is, in all fairness to the regional health authorities, there

are certain programs and licensing aspects they have to do and the PRIDE

program, and it is not offered. It is no good to put a policy in place and then

say you have to do this program and you do not offer it.

The whole residential area has not been addressed effectively and therefore

we ended up with eighty-six children going through ALAs, but there is no plan

for foster homes. We just took this over last year, it was based on the regional

health authorities, and they have not produced any plans or showed us their

analysis or anything for the communities.

That is a piece of work that is not done that we have to do. To spend our

time and focus on the ALAs and build them and let the others go is not effective

because what we need are foster homes. We need a plan of how to recruit; we need

a plan of how to train and how to support foster families. That is not there

right now.

MS JONES: You said that the research or your observation, I do not know

how you referred to it, but you said that foster homes were the best option. Do

you have anything to support that?

MS BURKE: There would be considerable research in the area of child

protection and child welfare that would certainly indicate that. We have been

down this road in Newfoundland and Labrador. Let's not go back to the group

homes. We got away from Mount Cashel and those places. That is where we were

putting people for child protection and child welfare and taking people out of

homes. There were other homes here in the Province that we got ourselves out of.

We can talk about residential care and why that is gone and a thing of the

past and something we are not going to be resurrecting here in the Province, but

you will see that when a person is into a foster home, they are into a family

situation, they are into a home where there are parents and there is routine. It

is not stigmatizing that you are living in the neighbourhood as opposed to out

into an institution. You go to school from a certain home and you have guardians

who will go in and meet with the teachers. It really brings more of a family

life and stability into a child's life. Now, there is lots of research out there

that will show you that a family setting is far more nurturing and meeting a

child's needs as opposed to residential care.

MS JONES: Under foster care, you did announce in the Budget I think you

indicated just now in the Estimates that there was some funding put aside for

the foster care report. When is this report going to be done or when do you

expect it to be done? Is it started or are there any terms of reference for it?

What is the status of it?

MS BURKE: What I spoke about was the survey being done by the Foster

Families Association. They are going to do a survey of their families, but we

are going to do an extensive piece of work above and beyond the survey. That

survey will not be the basis for our continuum the policy that we are going to

be developing for residential services. It will help feed it, but it is not

going to be the document that is going to develop that policy.

MS JONES: What kind of survey is it? What are you asking people or what

are you looking for or what is the purpose of it?

MS BURKE: Do you want to speak to that, Jennifer?

MS JEANS: Yes.

The survey that we are doing of the foster families is to develop a profile

of the families, where they are, what their needs are and so on, and to get a

sense of, I guess, what type of supports they need in terms of training and so

on. As the minister referenced, we will be doing that in collaboration with the

Foster Families Association.

A couple of years ago we did the in care report; Ken Fowler did that for us.

What we want to do now is look at the service providers. From that, we will

develop some training and other supports and part of the strategy for enticing

other foster families.

MS JONES: Okay. So it is a survey with the current families that you

have, right?

MS JEANS: Yes.

MS JONES: I am just wondering because last year you made some changes in

the rates, I think, for foster families. You were hoping to fill a gap that was

there.

Were you able to recruit any new foster families in the Province or entice

some families to come back who may have been in the program and got out? What

have been the results of that?

MS BURKE: The increase in rates was more to assist with the retention of

families just the escalating costs generally. The whole recruitment would not

be based on finances. A lot of people get into becoming foster parents for

reasons other than financial reasons. So, the finances alone and the increase

were to reflect increased costs as opposed to try to use that as a way to entice

new homes.

MS JONES: Okay. Were you able to recruit any new homes, new foster

families in the Province?

MS BURKE: Well, the regional health authorities would have been doing the

foster home recruitment over the last year as opposed to the department.

MS JONES: So you do not know if they recruited any -

MS BURKE: They may have brought some homes on, but none of them have a

plan, or have an analysis or anything on what they are doing.

MS JONES: Okay. Was there supposed to be some kind of report on foster

care or foster families or something as well? I thought I remember you talking

about that about a year ago, that you were going to do something on that. Is

that the survey you are talking about now?

MS BURKE: I would not have mentioned the survey before.

MS JONES: When the issue came up about the gaps in the system, you guys

made reference to doing some work around foster families. You were going to do

some kind of a study or report. You were going to recruit more families. You

were going to launch some initiatives to do that. I had the understanding that

it was a government actioned item and that it was not just given to the health

authorities and no result coming back.

MS BURKE: The only thing I would have spoken of was the fact that we were

going to develop the continuum of services, and that would include the analysis

of foster families and would look at a recruitment strategy.

MS JONES: Okay. Right now when children reach the age of sixteen they

come out of the foster care system, right? Do they have the option then to

receive services, supportive services, under your department or other

departments?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: It would be under your department, would it?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: Okay. How many youth do we have in foster care throughout the

Province right now? How many people are in foster care right now?

MS BURKE: Six hundred and sixty-six.

MS JONES: How many of those will come out of the system, say in the next

couple of years, will reach the age of sixteen?

MS BURKE: I would not have that breakdown with me this evening.

MS JONES: Okay. I guess it can go back to Lorraine.

CHAIR: Yes, sure.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you.

I would like to pick up again from where the Leader of the Opposition was

with regard to children in care, children being taken out of their homes and

explore a bit more with you the continuum of care that you are talking about. In

the program development and planning that you are doing, are you looking at the

potential for some children - I understand that there are some situations in the

home that are risky, that children are really in danger. Are you looking at the

potential for trying to maintain more children in their homes with services for

the children, services for the parents, counselling and diverting some of that

money, the $10 million that has gone into ALA also into those kind of services,

not just assuming that every child has to be taken out of their home, but that

there could be a package for the family, education, support, counselling, the

works?

MS BURKE: Yes.

Only 11 per cent of the families who we deal with actually have children that

are placed in an arrangement other than their own family home. So, 89 per cent

of the families we deal with, we deal with and work right in their homes.

MS MICHAEL: Have you been able to or are you planning on doing an

assessment of the services for the 89 per cent to see how that is going? Does it

need to be beefed up? Do you need more in that area than exists?

MS BURKE: One thing we need to do, I suppose, coming out of our Clinical

Services Review and as we build the department is we need, obviously, to - and

we will be doing this when we introduce Bill 1 - look at our legislation and

build the policies and procedures that will come out of that legislation. Then,

on the other side as we develop our organizational chart, is get at issues of

workload - all of this in the Susan Abell report - setting up an effective IT

system so that we are not spending extra time doing computer work when we should

be doing our social work. Then, one thing that we will also be bringing on-line

is a more stringent audit function, quality control of how we do our work.

So, there should be a fair amount of time that we should be able to develop

procedures and policies that encourage more work with the families, but we

should also have an auditing function there because we need to see what policies

are working for us and what ones are not. I think that is one thing right now,

when I look at the current IT system, is that whole gap in analysis. How do we

create statistics on this and how do we get a good trend across the Province to

see where things are lacking or there are gaps in services? That is something

that is really, I suppose, disappointing in the present set-up. It is all done

on a regional basis and the system is not giving you the appropriate statistics.

It is difficult to get the stats that you need just on a high level to look at

it.

One thing, as we build this new system, is we need to be able to look those

trends and those measures more effectively. When we do that, that should then

lead us to better policies to do our work. If we are seeing families who are not

making it, or cannot make it, or there are reasons why, we should be able to

have a better analysis on a provincial level to see where we need to develop

services.

MS MICHAEL: Minister, you may have said this already and I may have

missed it, how long do you think it is going to take to get that whole IT piece

in place?

MS BURKE: It is going to take three to four years.

MS MICHAEL: Three to four?

MS BURKE: Three or four years, and it is going to cost $15 million.

MS MICHAEL: OCIO will be doing that?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, you have already said that.

Just looking at resources and workloads and all of that, you know as well as

we do that it has been in the news that Eastern Health is not hiring any new

social workers this year coming out of the class from the university. Were you

part of that decision making? Are you satisfied that there are enough resources

in Eastern Health? Is it just Eastern Health who is not hiring anybody new? What

about the other authorities?

MS BURKE: Yes, I had a look, I guess, from a provincial perspective when

I heard the news story to see what was happening with that. There are actually

eighteen social work positions available in the Province right now just not with

Eastern Health, but I think it comes down to probably ten in Child, Youth and

Family Services and eight in other positions. I think nine are in Labrador

maybe, out of the eighteen. We had no involvement other than if there is a

vacant position, they should fill it.

So, the other thing, I suppose, looking at well why would there have been

such a rush in other years and now all of a sudden there is none. There was $24

million invested since 2006 and there are 224 new positions. I would think what

has probably happened is the positions have finally been filled because I would

think that for years as all of that number of new positions were coming on, it

was creating a number of vacancies and moving, so there must have been a lot of

transition happening. I would think they are at a point right now where the

positions have been filled. Now, as vacancies come up they will be filled. So,

there is nothing to say do not fill a vacancy. When we checked there are

actually twenty-six social work vacancies in the - twenty-six or eighteen?

Anyway, eighteen, I think, ten and eight. No, eighteen and eight. There are

actually twenty-six social work positions in the Province.

MS MICHAEL: Twenty-six.

Is it fair to say based on the transition period that you are in - it sounds

like it from what you just said - that in actual fact there is decision making

being made by the RHAs that you are not part of at this point because they are

still delivering the service?

MS BURKE: Exactly. Right now, they are still day-to-day, responsible - if

there are new foster homes or scheduling or whatever, they continue to do all

that. We are overseeing the policy but we are not doing the day-to-day

operations. That will happen as they transition into the new department.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Can you tell us what region you are starting with for

the transition?

MS BURKE: Western.

MS MICHAEL: Western. How far does that extend?

MS BURKE: It does not take in Grenfell, so it would take some of the

Northern Peninsula. It would then come down to Deer Lake and go to Port aux

Basques, take in Burgeo, Ramea, that area. It would not go east to Baie Verte.

Baie Verte comes under Central. So it is the Western

MS MICHAEL: It is the Western RHA?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, right, of course. Next year it will be more interesting,

won't it?

You are being quite honest; I am finding it very interesting what you have

been saying. It is not nice, but you are being honest about it. In actual fact,

we do not have a lot of analysis and policy in place, which is what we have been

seeing and fearing.

MS BURKE: There has always been a provincial headquarters for policy, but

there are also policy people at a regional level as well. So, it has become a

very disjointed service, unfortunately.

In all fairness, bringing this under a line department is quite an exciting

time in this field and being with government and having the opportunity to be at

this point to bring these services together. They were originally under Social

Services and delivered under very different circumstances at that time, because

they were into the same offices, Income Support and whatever. There has been a

whole shift in thinking and separation of that.

I just think right now it is time that we need to put the emphasis back on

this service and give it a provincial focus. When you look at it, we are not

that big as a Province, and we are certainly not that big to have the different

regional health authorities delivering in a different manner.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Unfortunately, I think children have suffered in the

process in the past, so let's hope that we are going to be able to reduce that

and families too, not just the children.

You did mention already the review of the CYFS Act. Can you give us some idea

of where things are with regard to the review?

MS BURKE: Where are we legislatively with it -

MS MICHAEL: Yes, you have had consultations I know.

MS BURKE: Yes, and we have introduced it as Bill 1. So it will be, I

think I am biased, no doubt, but I think it is the cornerstone legislation

that we will pass this session. I do not know when we are going to bring it in,

but we will do the Budget first.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I know that.

MS BURKE: Yes, and the consultations are complete at this point.

MS MICHAEL: Right. The legislation is basically completed, not totally

final but almost if you are hoping to bring it in before June.

MS BURKE: That is right. I suppose it is to a point where we are going to

get it at this point, and then we will get it into the House and have our

debate.

MS MICHAEL: Right. I will ask this question, but I think I know the

answer, I think I know why. In last year's Budget, there was $24 million within

Health and Community Services for a child care program. It took one of the

researchers in my office months to get the breakdown of the figure. I am

presuming that is because good records were not being kept et cetera. Can we

look to the future to be able to get those kinds of information in a much more

timely fashion? I will not say this coming year because you are still in

transition.

MS BURKE: Yes. I would think that once we have become a line department

it should be easier to pull out the numbers because when they go out to regional

health authorities, then it goes into their system of accounting and trying to

get their numbers back. So, I would assume all our numbers, after this, will be

like any line department.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Again with child care, the Auditor General's report

had concerns that RHAs are not adequately monitoring child care centres. Is that

something that you have started looking at yet in the policies that you are

looking at?

MS BURKE: Yes. One thing, certainly, we have so many issues that we have

to tackle but we take the Auditor General's report very seriously. As far as I

am concerned if people have a job to do, they have to do that job. If it is

monitoring that has to be done, they need to have the appropriate forms and

tools, whatever they need to go out and do what they need to do.

The Auditor General highlighted some gaps and some weaknesses there. As

minister, my instruction is know that report, know what he is talking about and

fix it.

MS MICHAEL: Minister, do you know at this point whether or not there have

been adequate resources in place for the front-line staff who would be the ones

doing monitoring to go out? Is it sometimes that they have been overloaded with

work and that may be part of the poor monitoring? Do you have an analysis of

that yet?

MS BURKE: We will be developing our organizational chart. Again, I guess

it is developed but yet somewhat fluid. We think that as we roll out the

organizational chart that we will have there are no cuts in staff here, there

is actually going to be more staff coming on, I cannot say in child care but

generally in this department. We think that we will be adequately resourced.

We will monitor that and make sure that we are as we go through the year.

Based on our numbers and based on the workload that we are seeing and the

numbers of workers who we anticipate we will have in the different areas, we

think that we will be able to do it through the work that we are mandated to do.

MS MICHAEL: I think that is all, Mr. Chair, for the moment.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you.

MS MICHAEL: I might have more after.

CHAIR: Okay.

Ms Jones.

MS JONES: More questions. Actually, would you be able to give us the

numbers for children in care, a breakdown by the regional health authority in

the Province, both for the ALAs, ILAs and foster care?

MS BURKE: I do not have it with me, but we would have that. I will

comment by saying that outside Eastern Health, you do not see ALAs. You may see

one in Labrador and you may see one in Central, but you will not see any in

Western. It is a phenomenon that we are seeing here in St. John's.

MS JONES: The houses that they use in Goose Bay then, what would they be

called?

MS BURKE: There is an ALA in Goose Bay -

MS JONES: There are five or six there.

MS BURKE: It could be an ILA - Independent Living Arrangement.

MS JONES: Yes.

MS BURKE: (Inaudible) you will see the numbers. You might see one in the

different regions, but when you see the numbers for the ALAs you are not see a

spread across the Province.

MS JONES: Okay.

Just to pick up on the staffing piece, I am just wondering, in the past year,

how many temporary employees or temporary contracts were let in your department

that would be thirteen weeks or less?

MS BURKE: In the department, since last year, we have not had anyone

thirteen weeks or less. Since we started hiring, we have not had anybody who

would have been offered thirteen weeks or less.

MS JONES: Your temporary employees, you have a budget there for temporary

employees in the Minister's Office, Executive Support, Corporate Services,

Program Development and Planning, and Regional Health Authorities.

MS BURKE: What line is that?

MS JONES: Temporary & Other Employees, $2.9 million budgeted. It is in

the salary estimates, a different book from the regular Estimates.

MS BURKE: What is the line?

I know some of the staff that we hired to, I suppose, come in to do the work

we need to do here are temporary. We hired people on contract because as we

develop the new department there are going to be some services that we will not

offer. We have kind of built, I suppose, a structure to lead us into the

transition, but they would not have necessarily been permanent jobs in the

public service.

MS JONES: No, well it says they are Temporary & Other Employees and it is

nearly $3 million. I would to know how many positions and how many of them were

thirteen week contracts.

MS BURKE: Do you want to take that Sheree?

MS MACDONALD: Give me the line again, please. I have the salary estimates

here (inaudible).

MS BURKE: What line was it?

MS JONES: It is in the salary estimates book for your department.

MS MACDONALD: Page (inaudible).

MS JONES: Page 129, I think it is.

We do not have the list for what is currently there because it was not broken

out for last year. We only have a list of what you are forecasting for this

year.

MS BURKE: In the Minister's Office, I would consider that Other

Employees. The one there, the Permanent, would be the minister, but the others

would be the CA, the EA and the departmental secretary. That is that number

reflected there.

MS JONES: Okay. So, there is no temporary employees being budgeted for

your office this year?

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: Okay.

What about for the other offices? Are there any temporary employees being

budgeted for any of these offices?

MS BURKE: (Inaudible) temporary employees.

Yes, the other one we would not be able to comment on would be the health

authorities, right?

MS MACDONALD: Yes.

MS BURKE: Do you want to speak to the others?

MS MACDONALD: I can comment on that.

Yes, you are looking at the Corporate Services there, the Temporary & Other

Employees, $1.6 million. That is the line you are looking at? If that is the

line that you are looking at, normally what we have this year is most of our

corporate staff are approved on a temporary basis because we do not know what

our corporate structure is going to look like once we become a line department.

So, our director of finance, our director of HR, our director of IT, all of

those positions have come on, on a temporary nature, to manage the transition

process over the next two years. So, they are temporary dollars in that sense

and we have hired them on contract. Our permanent structure for Corporate

Services we will bring forward for government's approval at a later date and

whatever is approved then will become permanent salary dollars, but during the

transition they are considered staff to support the transition process. So, that

is where that money is coming from.

MS JONES: Can I get a list of what positions are forecasted to be

temporary positions within the department and what the costs of those positions

are? I would like to know

MS BURKE: Do you mean during the transition or permanently?

MS JONES: What you are budgeting for this year.

MS BURKE: Okay.

MS JONES: For the 2010-2011 year.

MS BURKE: For the transition (inaudible) -

MS JONES: It does not matter to me if it is transition or not. I just

want to know what is temporary and what is not, and I want to know how many of

those temporary individuals are hired or will be hired under thirteen week

contracts.

MS BURKE: None will be thirteen weeks or less; it will be two years.

MS JONES: Okay. You are telling me that right now there are no employees

in your office or your department under thirteen week contracts.

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: There is none? Okay.

My other questions - that is all on the salary piece. I have a couple of

questions on the Amanda Duggan case. Back in November you committed to doing a

review of her file. I am wondering what the status of it is and if her file is

still open, if it has been closed, if all of the issues have been resolved. I do

not know I have not heard a public statement on it since.

MS BURKE: Mr. Chair, I do not know where we go with this, but I am not

prepared to get into individual case files here at the Estimates Committee

tonight.

MS JONES: The question is very generic. You made a public statement that

you would do a review of her file. I am asking if the review was done, or if it

is still ongoing, or if it has been closed.

MS BURKE: I am here tonight to talk about the Estimates of the Budget.

That is an individual's case and I am not going to be discussing it here.

MS JONES: Well, I think it is being paid for out of your department, I

would think. So it is a departmental issue.

MS BURKE: I will not be discussing the individual files of any clients of

Child, Youth and Family Services here this evening.

MS JONES: Okay.

The other file I want to ask about is the investigation that was committed to

be done by the Child and Youth Advocate regarding a house fire in Goose Bay. Was

the investigation completed? Is it near completion?

MS BURKE: I will not be speaking for the advocate here tonight either.

MS JONES: Okay. Well, that will be all my questions.

CHAIR: Okay.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Just a couple of short ones, Mr. Chair, and Minister. This

could be very short.

I was looking for some information with regard to updates on child care.

Should I be asking that from Health and Community Services at that Estimate, or

do you have this information now?

MS BURKE: If we do not have it with us, we will provide it, but it should

be asked here.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. I would be interested in an update on the number of

child care spaces, the location, and how many are centre and how many are family

daycare spaces. I have the figures as of June 2009. I would like an update of

the figures for all of that.

Is there a plan? Do you know if there are any new centres or spaces being

created this year, and if so, where and how many?

MS BURKE: We do have all of that information. The total spaces we have in

the Province and when did you say you had your numbers as of?

MS MICHAEL: June 2009.

MS BURKE: This is January 2010.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: It is six months, so it may not be a big difference in what you

have.

The total, provincial, is 6,059 spaces. Out of that, the child care centres

would be 5,665; spaces and individually licensed homes would be seventy; and

spaces and agency approved homes is 324.

Under our capacity initiative, since the fall of 2006, seven new child care

centres have opened and five existing child care centres expanded their service.

That has created an additional 163 positions. That is since 2006, so that is

probably the number you have there.

Right now, there are presently nineteen projects that are in development.

That should give us another 316 spaces.

MS MICHAEL: Can you give me an idea of where those nineteen projects are

in the Province?

MS BURKE: I do not have this here with me, but we can.

MS MICHAEL: That would be great, please.

I am assuming that any request, whether it is made by me or another member,

that everybody will get the responses to those requests for information.

MS BURKE: I know we submit it. Now, where it goes, I do not know.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. If I have asked for something, I am assuming it might

interest Ms Jones, and if she has asked for something, I do not repeat what she

asked for, but I would like to have it as well.

There is one more then piece of information that I do not expect tonight -

you probably have some of the answers but I am happy to get it in writing. Under

2.1.02., Support to Community Agencies, could we just have a list of this year's

agencies that are getting grants and subsidies?

MS BURKE: Yes, I know what you are saying. Yes, the one that you are

looking at there right now is the $309,000; that is for the Foster Families

Association.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS BURKE: In addition to that, there is a list of other agencies that we

can get.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great.

MS BURKE: It would not be under that particular line.

MS MICHAEL: So this one is all for the Foster Families Association, the

one that is there?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

That is it, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Do we have any further questions for the Committee?

Okay, Mr. Clerk, call the headings.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK: Subheads 1.2.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.01 to 2.1.02 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Child, Youth and

Family Services carried without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services

carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister, I would like to thank you and your staff for being here this

evening, as well as the Committee members.

I will now ask for a motion to adjourn.

AN HON. MEMBER: So moved.

CHAIR: Okay, so moved. We are adjourned.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.