Manitoba Hansard — 11 May 2018 (Sitting 45C, 41st Legislature, 3rd Session)

41-3-45c

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXI No. 45C - 10 a.m., Friday, May 11, 2018 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Ind. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon.

Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC Vacant St. Boniface

2193 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 11, 2018 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS (Continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) (Continued) INDIGENOUS AND NORTHERN RELATIONS Madam Chairperson (Sarah Guillemard): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Indigenous and Northern Relations. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mr. Andrew Swa n (Minto): Yes. I will actually make some comments this morning in my role as MLA, but also in my role as Health critic for the official opposition.

So I will ask a lot of general questions of the minister this morning but also some particular questions on health issues because we know that health of indigenous people is a big challenge when we look at a number of factors, including Manitoba's geography, but also, un- fortunately, a lot of the negative outcomes in indigenous health. And I hope we'll have a good discussion this morning about these things. We know that the responsibility for indigenous relations is truly a cross -government approach.

I know the minister is heading up the department, but I think everybody appreciates that it is a very wide number of issues that must be dealt with, and I'm looking forward to having a –good discussions with the minister about some of the things that she's undertaken. So, with that, we're ready to move into questions and answers. Madam Chairperson: We thank the member. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item to be considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 19.1.(a), contained in resolution 19.1.

At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Hon. Eileen Clarke (Minister of Indigenous and Northern Relations): Good morning, everyone, and I'd like to acknowledge my colleagues who are here this morning to take

part in this proceeding, as well as I'd like to acknowledge my honourable member for Minto. Before we begin this morning, though, I would like to acknowledge that we are on Treaty 1 territory and that Manitoba' s the ancestral land of the Anishinabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene people and the homeland of the Metis nation. And, with that, I would like to introduce the staff that will be working with me here today. To my left, I have James Wilson, who is our a cting deputy minister. We have Dave Hicks, who is the manager of Consultation and R econciliation.

We have Scott DeJaegher; he's the director of Policy and S trategic Initiatives. And we have Shelly Ferens, director of Financial and Administrative Services. Madam Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Swan: I'd suggest, in keeping with our usual practice, we have a global discussion. Madam Chairperson: Is this agreed to by the committee? [Agreed] Thank you.

It is agreed, then, that the questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner, with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Swan: In my opening statements, and, I believe, the minister's opening statements as well, we talked about how many of the issues involving indigenous people in Manitoba fall across a number of departmental lines. Is the minister still the chair of th e Aboriginal issues committee of Cabinet?

2194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 Ms. Clarke: In regards to that particular committee, that committee no longer exists. Within this particular government, we have a different approach in dealing with a lot of our issues, and, as you said, Indigenous and Northern Relations is a very broad department within our government.

And we have the opportunity, and we feel it has been most successful because we work directly with all departments in this government, because all of those departments are in –they are more responsible, in some ways, when it comes to funding or the decision-making process for issues. And you specifically refer to Health. Well, our Health Minister and his department, they are foremost the decision-makers in those particular decisions.

So we have the opportunity to meet with and to work with all of the different departments in our government, and we just find, along with our staff and–who keep on top of all of the issues with all of our communities –chiefs and councils, Northern Affairs communities as well as the Metis Federation– we have a more direct approach, and it has been very successful. Mr. Swan: Well, one of the benefits we found of the Aboriginal issues committee of Cabinet is that it brought together ministers, plus deputy m inisters, as well as staff, within that committee to make sure there was a cross-governmental approach.

So did the Aboriginal issues committee of Cabinet ever sit, or has it never sat since the new government was elected just over two years ago? Ms. Cla rke: I think what is different in this government is our relationship that is direct with First Nations chiefs and councils. This –in their opinion, they did not have the opportunity in previous government to talk directly with either the minister, deputy ministers, the staff. They did not have that direct relationship, and now we feel that matters are dealt with in a much more 'expediated' way. They are brought forward very, very quickly.

Our staff has a great working relationship with all other departmen ts, and we can address those issues, and they have, obviously, a larger input. The pact to reconciliation act, issues from there go directly to Cabinet, and we deal with them and they're dealt with in a timely manner in –from all respects. I think it's be come very clear that our communities and their leadership are taking

part in decisions that are going forward that directly affect them, and that, to them, is really significant. Mr. Swan: Just so it's clear: I'm not in any way suggesting your deputy mini ster isn't an excellent individual who has good relationships. I'm not worried about this deputy minister, but I am concerned that not all deputy ministers, who have a host of issues to deal with, are necessarily going to put indigenous issues first and foremost. And I'm concerned to hear that this government has decided not to, it sounds like, ever strike the committee, and certainly not to follow through with the committee.

As the minister probably knows, I asked the Education Minister about the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet. Is the minister still a member of that committee of Cabinet? * (10:10) Ms. Clarke: Yes, in fact, I am a member of the – sitting member of the Healthy Child Committee, and, in regards to that , the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Wishart) is our chair.

And , although there's been a lot of discussion of –certainly in question period in regards to H ealthy Child, I think it's very clear that this gov ernment, in every department and across, you know, all our members, we really focus on children and we know that they are our future. And I have to say that the discussions that we have around doing the best job that we can do and ensuring that all challenges are met for the children of the future is of significant importance, and we will continue down this path without a doubt.

We have – my colleague ministers work very hard within their departments towards goals that we hope to achieve. Some we have achieved, some we're going to–be achieved in the near future and some in the longer distance. But Healthy Child is very clear. The title itself speaks to the goals that we have, because with –we know if we have healthy children that they're going to have a healthy future, and that's really significant going forward. Mr.

Swan: I would agree, which is why I was concerned when I learned from the Minister of Education in Estimates that the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet has not met in almost a year, not since May of 2017. Does that concern the minister, and has the minister made any efforts to get this committee–

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2195 again, comprised not just of ministers, but of deputy ministers, as well as individuals from the committee and also Health Child Manitoba –has the minister made any efforts to get this committee together to discuss the very issues that I think the minister and I agree are very important for children, particularly indigenous children in Manitoba? Ms. Clarke: I've attended all the meetings and the fact that there hasn't been a meeting held recently doesn't mean there's nothing happening.

And you know, these are kind of the discussions that were held at the meetings that we did have since this government was formed and, you know, the direction at–when we formed government, there was no real direction within the Healthy Child Committee so we had several ver y in -depth discussions as to where as a government we needed to go. We viewed it through the lens of each individual department, what our responsibility was and certainly within the indigenous–and at that time, I was the municipal minister, as well.

And we had the opportunity to examine it through each of our departments, and what we needed to do as a department. And I have to say, you know, now that we are Indigenous and Northern Relations, that we've had every opportunity to look at the children and to look at the youth and see what our significant roles are going forward. And as you indicated, the health of the children most significantly is important, but also the education, you know, in order for a child to be healthy in their later years.

We are focu sing on the fact that education, a good home–a good diet, more specifically–and we've certainly addressed that within our department because we do have the northern healthy foods strategy. And the meetings and the opportunities that I've had to ensure that children as well as their parents are having healthy diets so that they can live a healthy life and live beyond the years that so many of their family members never had the opportunity. And most recently I had a meeting with directors with the northern healthy food and the work that they're doing.

They also shared with us the financial input from companies and businesses that have added to the amount of dollars that come from our provincial government to ensure that these northern 'communies' more specif ically are fed and have a healthy diet when they get to school or beyond that. And it was really encouraging to meet with the communities that I've gone to, too, because they are so excited about their healthy food initiatives within their northern communities.

They are doing things they have never done before, and I think kind of the leader in this initiative was –we got to go to OCN where they started their gardening in greenhouses , and they're producing food , and they were to the point where they're act ually producing food for resale, which was really exciting for them. Island Lake is another great example of food initiatives for children and–not only just so that they have food but where they grow it themselves. They are healthier overall because they are working with gardening. It gives them an incentive to do well. They are understanding the food they eat.

They are going to be great parents down the road, because they've–have an opportunity from a very young age to do this. But the most exciting wa s, we had a group in and Carl McCorrister from Peguis was part of the group, and he's leading the initiative in Peguis. And they started out and their main crop is potatoes, and they are loving their potato crops. And the interesting part of this is they'r e being so successful that they're actually looking at going into business and doing seed potatoes. So great initiatives there.

And Pukatawagan which is one of our most northern lake communities –so excited that they are now raising chickens, turkeys and pigs. And who'd have thought? I mean, back in the day? But, to have companies within Manitoba and corporate businesses financially supporting these initiatives, that speaks to what our government and our department has accomplished, you know, in two years working with these communities. And I really have to acknowledge one of my staff; Paul Doolan has led this initiative. And we look fo rward to great things. This is Healthy Child. Mr.

Swan: Well, I ask the question because one of the things that the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet is tasked to do is to provide guidance to Healthy Child Manitoba. Now, I appreciate that Healthy Child Manitoba is not within this minister's estimates. But would this minister agree that the work that Healthy Child Manitoba does, the research that they gather, the projects and the programs they run, are certainly important to positive outcomes for indigenous children in Manitoba? Ms.

Clarke: I would like to acknowledge that committee, because we had the opportunity when we–when our government was first formed and, of course, when I was appointed to that committee, to

2196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 review. They brought forward some of the work that they had done in the past, and some of it was successful, some of it had not ever gone any further than being, you know, reviewed and to follow different initiatives that had been put forward. But they sat there dormant with the previous government. Our particular department, we took information from that and we went with it within our department, and I know some of my colleagues did too within their respective departments.

I know the Minister of Education, for instance, he has gone to great lengths to ensure, through his department and the responsibilities within his department, to focus on children. And, I mean, ultimately, it takes a lot more than one initiative to ensure that we have healthy children all across our province. There is so many different scenarios as to what overall makes a healthy child, and, as I've indicated within my department, we acknowledge that for–in order for children to be healthy and to live a good life that food and nutrition is something that we were able to focus on.

It's something that we certainly have funding going towards this. And we are just overwhelmed by the successes that we 've had. I was up in Norway House, just this past–oh, just a couple of months ago. We had the opportunity to take a cheque to them for $16,000.

And there was one elder that was there to accept the cheque, and he had not been a part of initiating the stra tegy for their gardens there–it was done through their schools –but he had become involved, and he was now the main co-ordinator, because he was so enthusiastic about the children and them being involved in their gardening and growing the vegetables and wha t they were doing with them once they were harvesting. * (10:20) These are success stories. They're huge success stories for our province, for our government, but they're not the stories you read about in the newspaper.

You know, these types of initiativ es should be acknowledged in a much greater way. Just being able to grow this food and to provide it to their communities. I'd have to acknowledge another one, Sandy Bay First Nation, through a training strategy in their community they started about a year and a half ago and they have a meat -cutting training going on with the community. It was supposed to be four tranches originally. They're already in their fifth.

So what they do is they're training their individuals to be meat cutters and the meat that th ey're using to–for this program in particular, which is pork, that's provided through HyLife in Neepawa. This meat goes to , first off, elders each week, and then it goes to children with families, young children so that they have good solid protein and that they have a meat in their diet. And, again, this is another initiative. It's not an initiative that was started through the Manitoba government.

It's a federal program this particular training, but it's one that we're able to be a part of because of the Healthy Food Initiative that we're initiating. And that's what our government is about. And when I reflect back to the other departments and what it means to work together within one government as a team, it's ensuring that whether it's training, whether it's providing education or ensuring that our children are healthy, we all come together and in the end the results are extremely successful. Mr. Swan: I got some conflicting signals and a very lengthy answer by the minister to a pretty simple question.

Does the minister accept that the expertise housed in Healthy Child Manitoba, the particul ar staff that have been attracted to work in Healthy Child Manitoba, does she accept that that's valuable to try to get better outcomes for indigenous children in Manitoba? Ms. Clarke: I think that we acknowledge that information coming from many directions and the expertise of others is always good. We would like to think that we base our information when we're making decisions as a government on the best available information, and that comes from many avenues. We have, as I've indicated, we've got great staff.

I know Paul Doolan has worked on the northern food strategy and, in fact, I was to Iqaluit with him where he did a presentation to all our colleagues across the country on what Manitoba's doing. And I think our expertise comes from a lot of differe nt directions. And I'm not saying in the past, you know, whoever was involved in the Healthy Child strategy in the past–I certainly would want to acknowledge that they have done a good job. There's –without a doubt. And we will continue to engage with where ver and whomever can give us great advice so that we make really solid decisions.

This government doesn't want to look back and say, well, you know, that was good, but maybe we should've done this or we should've done that. Maybe we should've talked to a different group. But I know for a fact that the chair of our committee

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2197 Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Wishart) has certainly been a great chair and he has made every effort to ensure that, as all departments, that we're doing our job and that we are all contributing in a significant way. Mr. Swan: Well, I think we're going to classify the minister's response as somewhat ambivalent to the work that Healthy Child Manitoba does. So maybe we'll just move on to some more technical questions.

I'm goin g to ask the minister to undertake to provide a staff listing for the department's senior staff, including the department's technical officers. Ms. Clarke: Would you like that list read out? Mr. Swan: If the minister has that handy today, that would be appreciated. Ms. Clarke: Okay, happy to share this with you. And, again, I'd like to acknowledge the great staff that I've worked with over the past two years. They are really dedicated to their jobs. They have a very clear understanding of all the issues that we are facing and, y ou know, most of them have been in this department much longer than I have.

And I would have to say that the relationships within our department are very supportive. We have a great team. And so, first of all, I'll acknowledge James Wilson, who is my act ing deputy minister. And, having worked with James in the past, in municipal affairs, I feel very confident in his ability to work now in the indigenous role for the time being. We also –the interesting part about our department is we have 64 First Nations communities.

We have 52 Northern Affairs communities, which is an interesting part to our department, because they're very small communities throughout the North, and having met them initially two years ago and being at their AGA where they indicated they'd never had a minister come to their meeting was overwhelming. It was an event. But we have a really good relationship with those Northern Affairs communities now. And I'd like to acknowledge Freda Albert, who is the executive director. She works out of our Thompson office.

And Freda has been with the department many years and does just an absolute amazing job for our Northern Affairs communities. So we also have two directors that work underneath–or, you know, with Freda. So, in the northern region, w e have Armand Barbeau. He is a director. And we also have Stewart Sabiston. And they work, respectively, out of Thompson and Dauphin offices. They oversee the staff in those particular areas. We also have a great asset to our team is Dave Hicks. He's the C onsultation and R econciliation director. And, within my department, consultation and reconciliation is very imperative.

We also have Scott DeJaegher . Scott is our Policy and S trategic Initiatives director and also has been with the department for many years. And we have Community Engagement, and I've already alluded to Paul Doolan. He's the director of that department and does a fantastic job. So those are our key persons within our department. Mr. Swan: I'm just wondering why Mr. Wilson is the actin g deputy minister, and you gave the somewhat ominous comment that he's there for the time being. Is there an intention to make him the permanent, ongoing deputy minister, or what's the process? Ms. Clarke: I thank you for that.

Question is quite an easy o ne, actually. There is a request at this time that our government's taking applications for a deputy minister for my department as well as looking at other vacancies that exist within our government. [interjection] Yes, they've been posted, actually, across Canada. * (10:30) Mr. Swan: And is it the intention that Indigenous and Northern Relations will have its own permanent deputy minister all to its own, or is that going to be shared with the municipal government? Ms. Clarke: Our department will have its own deputy minister. Mr.

Swan: I note in the organizational chart on page 5 that the Financial and Administrative Services position is vacant as of March 20, 2018. Is that executive financial officer position still vacant? Ms. Clarke: I thank you for the question. We have some of our northern positions in Thompson that are vacant. They've been advertised for some time and we are really having a difficult time recruiting to the positions in the North. I was up and met with our director there, Freda Albert, and they get some staff that come and they sometimes don't stay that long. They just find –they find Thompson really remote.

Sometimes I find that hard to understand because

2198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 those are great positions and it's a great working environment there. We've met with the staff there on different occasions, but she did indicate that they really struggle to recruit to Thompson. Mr. Swan: Great. The minister may not have this handy this morning, but I'd like her to undertake to provide, then, what i s the vacancy rate for the Department of Indigenous and Northern Relations? Ms. Clarke: As of January this year it's 18.5 per cent, and , as I indicated previously, it is – most of those jobs are specifically in the northern offices. Mr.

Swan: Could the minister undertake to provide an updated vacancy number, then, say, as of May 1st of this year? Ms. Clarke: That information is difficult to give out as of May 1st because, as you will clearly understand, in government things don't always move that quickly. We're usually –get the information within a month, so to ask for it in 11 days isn't –it is down slightly because we know that there is –at least one position has been filled and others probably will be shortly. Mr. Swan: All right. Well, why do n't we then –I don't want to create a bunch of work for the department.

Why don't we say as of April 1st of this year which also coincides with the new fiscal year? That would be very helpful, and can the minister also provide a list of which positions are actually vacant? I understand her comment that there seems to be a greater difficulty filling the Thompson and other northern positions. That would be helpful to know as well. Ms. Clarke: We will provide that information. We just don't have it as per list for right this time. Mr. Swan: That's understood, and I thank the minister for that undertaking. Now, it's not a very big department, as I think we can agree.

I was concerned looking at page 11 of the Estimates book which talks about reductions of three full-time-equivalent positions, and I wonder if the minister could put on the record which positions are being terminated, and has that already occurred or is that going to happen in the upcoming year? Ms. Clarke: In regards to the three positions that you're referring to, one position that was reduced was the finance and administration. Municipal Relations and Indigenous and Northern Relations now share a finance and administration person.

And the other two FTEs were in the N orthern Affairs branch, and that was created through efficiencies. There were no layoffs. Mr. Swan: Just–I'm not sure of the euphemism, created through efficiencies. Those were positions that became vacant that were simply not filled . I s that what the minister means? Ms. Clarke: That is correct.

And I think, you know, going forward, we've had that discussion amongst the staff in Winnipeg as well as in our offices in Thompson and Dauphin that I've actually attended where they talk about their positions, and the really interesting one was the first meetings that I had in Dauphin and in Thompson. And, again, they were thrilled to have the opportunity to actually talk face to face with the minister. And we went around the table and each one of the employees got to talk about their position. They got to talk about what they do within their position.

But they also got to talk about what they could foresee and a vision of where they thought our department should be and what we should be focusing on. And, you know, they actually present ed some of these initiatives themselves where they wanted to pursue opportunities for our government in efficiencies.

And that was really encouraging because, you know, in the difficult position our government was in financially, facing the deficit that we were facing and the cost of dealing with that deficit, and it was the employees that were putting forward information where they saw that within their own offices the inefficiencies that happened. And, you know, that was really appreciated because they understood what we were dealing with, but they also understood what their jobs were and they understood what was needed in northern Manitoba to make their communities more sustainable, and we listened.

And, you know, we're talking about two positions here that were–became vacant for whatever reason, but we're actually getting better quality of work done. They are excited about having a little bit of extra responsibilities in some areas, and it's really encouraging when, as Cabinet ministers or as a government overall, that we see that our employees are working with us because we have the same goals and the same efficiencies. And, you know, to engage them in the reorganization of our department speaks very highly of how they look at their job within our

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2199 government, but also how they look at their job in their delivery of services to the people that they're working on behalf of. * (10:40) So we're really excited about the, you know, filling the positions that still remain vacant in northern Manitoba, and ev en talking with our director there, our manager, Freda Albert, and her praise of the staff and the work that they're doing filling the voids that exist there right now is remarkable because they are doing everything they can to ensure that there –the delive ry of services is not being affected and that they are covering over every possible position that is vacant.

And I know that they are also working very hard to fill the positions that need to be filled. Mr. Swan: I'm sorry, did –does the minister expect us to believe that the employees of –in a department were the ones who came up with the idea of cutting two positions within Northern Affairs branch in a department that already has an 18.5 per cent vacancy rate? Is that what the minister's suggesting? Ms. Clarke: Absolutely not. I did not indicate that. I'm just saying that they felt that–they provided so much information to us.

It's hard to understand, I guess, when you're not there and you haven't met with staff that work in northern and remote areas and the challenges that they face going forward that we don't face when we live in urban areas in the southern part of the province, et cetera, and the distances they have to travel to work with the people of their communities that they serve. But they came f orward with great ideas. No, they didn't sit there and say, well, we can do this with less staff, we can do it with this.

But, because they were enthusiastic about their jobs going forward and, you know, just the fact that they were actually asked and somebody listened to them and cared about them in their positions in the North and the challenges that they faced, that –inevitably–I don't know about the previous government, but I–it would be interesting to look back and see what the previous government – that those positions were actually filled at all times, as well. Because my guess would be that they weren't. Mr.

Swan: Well, just so it's clear, I do agree that government employees do great jobs and they are looking to find ways to improve the work that I do. But I asked the question because the minister seemed to be putting on the record that it was the employees' idea to reduce those positions, and I'm glad she's corrected the record to say that it was not. And, again, I hope the department's successful in filling those positions in northern Manitoba. It's fair to say that there are challenges in filling vacancies. A nd–but, of course, we have a Premier (Mr.

Pallister) who said he couldn't imagine why anybody wouldn't want to work for this government. But, like many things the Premier says, it doesn't always work out to be the case. And that's a good segue into the i ssue of night hunting. We know that it's been raised by the Premier on numerous occasions. It is a serious issue and a safety issue, which I think everybody accepts.

But, unfortunately, as the minister knows, the Premier decided to approach it in a way that created a lot of harm and a lot of hurt and a lot of anger, most obviously in his comments that the practice was leading to a, quote, race war, end quote, in the province. Those are not comments the minister made and those are not comments I know the min ister would make. What role does the minister play in developing a policy on night hunting for the province, which, I presume, is going to be included in the legislation that we'll be seeing next week?

Madam Chairperson: I do want to remind members that we are getting very close to discussing a bill on the Order Paper that has not yet been introduced into the House. I want you all to be very careful with your comments at this point. Ms. Clarke: I just want to go back for one minute, if I could, in regar ds to, you know, the employees and the great work that they do for our government. We heard just this past week about the Transformational Capital Fund .

And, you know, this speaks very clearly to the meetings that I had with our staff in northern Manitoba –which is almost two years ago, unbelievably–but–and we were so enthusiastic listening to them in both locations, because they had a lot to say. And, you know, being a new minister in government, I was so impressed with how deeply they were engaged in their jobs and the information they brought forward.

And, you know, this new capital fund that our Premier just introduced, you know, it gives these types of employees within our government to bring forward their ideas where they actually –they can bring them to us. And it goes back to Healthy Child, when we're talking about Healthy Child and committees and so on and so forth. You know, we

2200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 don't have to have always a formalized committee to have really great ideas coming forward. There are a lot of stakeholders in this province that can really be influential and may come up – forward with really good decisions. And as a government, the fact that we acknowledged that, I'm really proud of that. So I'd just like to put that on record. Mr.

Swan: Well, since the min ister put that on the record, it was fascinating when there were some questions of another minister about this $50 -million capital fund, and the minister couldn't actually say how much of that would be hired on yet more private consultants. How much of that $50 million is actually going to be allocated for the minister's department? Ms. Clarke: I just want to put on record that all departments in our government have the opportunity to participate in this strategy. And I think, going forward, we have a lot to learn from the people that we work with and beyond.

And I think the fact that we're a government that actually recognizes that good ideas come from, you know–we're looking for initiatives here that are not – that are going to be value for money, first off, that are going to promote better teamwork. And I would have to say, within our government we have great teamwork, not only at the Cabinet level, but in our caucus and beyond.

And, you know, when I look at my staff in particular–which I have a more closer relationship, of course, than I do with other departments–but when I sit and talk with my staff, whether it's in Winnipeg, Thompson, Dauphin, when I talk to our First Nations–and, you know, our staff has direct contact with them when they're working on different issues– some really great ideas come forward. And I think the fact that we have the opportunity to capitalize on that as a province–I think that speaks very loudly that we value everyone that we work with and we value their ideas.

And they are going to have to be very innovative to, you know, be champions in this endeavour. And I think, overall, we should all be very excited to see what does come forward. I think it's just a great opportunity to listen to people that aren't necessarily just around the Cabinet table. I think this is a good initiative. I really do. Mr. Swan: Okay, so, again, since the minister raised it, I'm just going to try and understand, from the minister's perspective, how this works, then. We're told there's a $50- million capital fund.

An employee in the department has a good idea, as employees in the department, other departments, have had for a long time. Then where does the $50 million come in? What does that get spent on? * (10:50) Ms. Clarke: Well, clearly, that m oney will be spent on that initiative, but, when we're looking at initiative, perhaps $50 million, but that particular initiative may save the government many mor e millions of dollars than the 50 that's initially going to be spent on it. So it's a new initiative. It's –we look forward to seeing the outcomes, and it should be exciting. Mr.

Swan: Why–I'm still not really understanding how this works. So, again– and it's understood and we're not suggesting it should be a bonus system. If you're an employee w ho comes up with a great idea to save a million dollars, you don't get an extra $10,000 bonus. That's not what this is intended for, we both agree on that. I'm just, I'm having trouble understanding then, an idea comes forward, does that mean the government then hires KPMG then to do a value -for-money audit? And the $50 million, like the other millions of dollars, then goes out the door to more accountants?

Or what exactly is this $50 million going to be used for? Because I'm at a loss as the government's explained it so far, and I appreciate the minister talking about it today. Ms. Clarke: Well, I think we need to be very clear. There will be no personal bonuses. This isn't a government that operates that way. We work as a team and we're looking at initiat ives. This is a department.

We're looking at projects and/or other opportunities, and I think one that I could probably – I'm going to use as an example, that something–an initiative that this government has undertaken in the past two years would probably be a good one if it wasn't already a–something that we're already doing so. And that's the basket funding to municipalities, you know, whereby they get their sum of money to now spend in whatever capacity they need and where there's not in -takes on grants and funds just all over the place, all different times of the year.

You know, streamlining a process and, you know, when you think about how things used to be in municipalities–and I have a lot of experience in that area. When I look at municipalities now having a

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2201 single lens to apply, and I think of the CAOs out in our municipalities and the chaos that there used to be meeting deadlines and meeting criteria and all the different communities that could sometimes never apply for a lump -sum of funding because they didn't fit the criteria. And yet they needed something else so desperately, but there was no funding for that. So I think from a government perspective that is probably a really example of something going forward that could've been, could've been a real champion, but we've already done it.

So, you know, it's those t ypes of things whereby there's a lot of efficiencies to be gained and we are looking for those kinds of efficiencies. We are still in a deficit position. We are still paying a lot of money on that debt servicing, but as our Premier (Mr. Pallister) has all uded to already, we're going in the right direction. But our team is much bigger than the people that you see at our Cabinet table, at our caucus table. Our team expands wide beyond that, and I think the recognition that we have for our staff and the work that they're doing and the ideas that they have is significant. Mr.

Swan: All right, so the example we've been given is freezing transit funding, for example is it –is the kind of example that we'll see a s the $50-million capital fund gets rolled out. So t hat's disappointing. I appreciate it's not the minister's fund and the minister didn't set up the rules for it, but that does not give us a lot of comfort. But I did –we got into this, somehow, when I asked a question about night hunting. And I appreciate the caution from the Chairperson that we're not talking about specifics.

But I wonder if the minister could tell me what role she played and has played in developing a policy on night hunting for the province? Ms. Clarke: I'm really pleased to respond to that because I did with –work with our previous minister of Sustainable Development when this issue was brought forward, and we all know that it was brought forward for very significant reasons and it is a concern for people's lives. And safe hunting is something that not only my department, but, of course, our government overall takes very, very seriously.

I was in direct contact l ast summer when a young man in the northern part of our province was accidentally shot. I was in contact with the CAO and the reeve of that municipality almost on an hourly basis from the time that incident happened. So it makes it very real. I've also been involved, in regards to our personal business, whereby a brother ended up shooting his own brother. He died. And seeing t he terrible, tragic events that follow these kinds of incidents, it's too familiar. So I had the opportunity with our previous minister of Sustainable Development to go to Turtle Lodge.

We spent a full day at Turtle Lodge with numerous chiefs and some of the council members. It was specifically to talk to the elders. They also brought in experts from other areas, United States, from their conservation people, to talk about safe hunting practices, specifically in regards to First Nations that they had de alt with there, some of the initiatives that they had taken forward in discussions and as a result of these discussions with their First Nations.

It was a very humbling experience to be there, especially listening to the elders speaking to their hunting practices from the early days, why they hunted, how they hunted and what hunting meant to them. They also talked about night hunting and their culture. It was really informative. It was a very sombre day, I have to say. We also listened to some of the yo unger chiefs and some of their council members on what hunting meant to them, culturally. And their views of hunting wasn't exactly the same, but that was to be respected. But, you know, they had an honest discussion.

There was also some elders there, mo thers, grandmothers, who spoke about hunting, and they spoke about the depletion of stock, especially moose meat that they really depend on for their livelihood. And, you know, they talked about sport hunting–a lot of the hunting that's done in our provinc e is sport hunting now–and their concerns for sport hunting. So, yes, I've had a lot of direct engagement with our First Nations, the Metis Federation, of course, and the northern affairs communities. And, when we're talking hunting, the views on hunting are very diversified.

But the one thing that is in common–it doesn't matter who I've talked to and the discussions that we've had–everyone agrees safe hunting is got to be a priority, and that is something that I think we all respect. And, going forward, that has to be the highest priority.

2202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 Mr. Swan: Well, I thank the minister for talking about what must have been a very full day at Turtle Lodge discussing very serious issues. What other consultation, then, has the minister conducted, or led, regarding this issue since the issue really rose in January of 2017? Ms. Clarke: It–I have had these discussions in meeting with individual chiefs and councils in regards to their communities, just hunting in general and, again, their hunting practices. They are –they're very concerned, because there has been loss of life within their communities as well.

So, again, safe hunting was the discussion. That's the discussion I've had with most, and also the discussion on hunting to provide the food for their communities. * (11:00) And it's kind of interesting, because even in the– I have a First Nation within my constituency, and following–you know, just having discussions with some of the elders there. And they have very specific–in fact, when we w ere in –last in Norway House and–with my staff for a very significant event there, and it was the particular season when they have–it was their spring feast.

And they celebrate a spring feast and the main staple food there is rabbit, and they had rabbit soup and they had rabbit. And it was amazing to see the excitement within that community. It was such an enlightening event to be there and to see how excited they were about this particular hunting of rabbits and how the younger generation goes out. They brought back all this rabbit. And that community of–there was literally hundreds of people in there. But it's a big deal. This spring feast is such a big deal. It made me understand more so hunting to them is not just a sport. It's not a sport. It's their livelihood.

It's what they do. But the elders, the fact that the younger generation brings them food, and that is part of their culture. It's overwhelming. And, you know, it wasn't–and again, they want their hunters to go out and they want them to come back at the end of the day. So to think that they don't want safe hunting is – that's a priority for them, too, and that's why they teach their younger generation from very young up hunting–safe hunting practices. But they make them understand, too, that it is not just to hunt to hunt. They hunt for cultural purposes. They hunt to feed their people.

From my department, that is the perspective we look at hunting. That –we work with Sustainable Development, of course, because we have had engagement with our indigenous people as well as northern communities and we will continue to work with all of our stakeholders to ensure that there's a clear understanding and the utmost respect going forward in regards to safe hunting practices. Mr. Swan: I thank the minister for that answer, and in the discussions that the minister has reported there were obviously concerns about night hunting. But the minister also mentioned concerns about sport hunting.

Are there communities that, then, have called on the minister to advocate for reductions in certain areas of sport hunting to make sure that there's adequate food, then, available for indigenous communities? Ms. Clarke: This was an issue discussed at turtle island–Turtle Lodge in regards –some of the grandmothers from the farther northern part of the 'provice' are concerned about moose, the depletion of moose. And I know from our department and 'sustunable' development there is a count being done.

So they are taking this very seriously and–to ensure that there is adequate food for the northern communities that absolutely can't afford to buy any other types of meat. They just–it's just not affordable for them. And, after all, this is their food of preference. This is what they have –that's been their livelihood is living on the wild meat and they have the utmost respect for that. Mr. Swan: I thank the minister for that. So can we expect there'll be any measures to deal with that issue as well? Ms.

Clarke: As I indicated, there's already a study going on with Sustainable Development counting the moose in the northern part of our province. Mr. Swan: I thank the minister. Now, does the minister agree that there is

section 35 of the Charter and other constitutional issues raised by the practice of night hunting by indigenous people? Ms. Clarke: Well, a s I've indicated, we have been working with Sustainable Development right from day one in regards to safe hunting practices. We've had Crown consultations directly at the community level, which I've also already indicated, and we will

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2203 continue to have input towards potential policy and legislation. And, again, we do that following discussions that we've already had and will continue to have with our First Nations or anyone throughout the province where we have the opportunity to meet and to discuss these issues. Mr. Swan: That's fine, but just–I'm asking a specific question. Does the minister agree that there are constitutional issues that are raised by dealing with the issue of night hunting? Ms. Clarke: Yes, as I've indicated, we'll continue to work with Sustainable Development.

We know that, as indicated, this is a bill that's going to be coming forward, and we look forward to respectful dialogue within our department and any other stakeholders that we're going to be meeting with. Mr. Swan: That wasn't the question. The question is whether this minister accepts that moves to impact night hunting raise

section 35 and other consti - tutional issues. Does the minister agree with that or not? Ms. Clarke: No. Mr. Swan: So the minister is clearly stating today that, in her view, the regulation, or the banning of night hunting, is not a constitutional issue and does not require any constitutional consultations with First Nations? Ms. Clarke: Okay, just a clarification when you're asking a yes /no question. Like, potentially, there could be an impact on treaty and Aboriginal rights but not necessarily. As I've indicated–and I think we all know this is a really sensitive issue.

And, you know, as a government and specifically within my department, I know how sensitive this is. And I know how–and I think we all know how one word can be taken totally out of context and can really cause a lot of problems. And, I think, in all respect for the people that I represent as First Nations, N orthern Affairs communities, I want to respect their rights all the way, as does our government. But we do have to find successful solutions going forward. Lives are being lost, people are being injured, people are scared, and, as a government, we are going to ma ke good decisions.

But the only way that we can do this is going to be ongoing consultations. * (11:10) There has to be dialogue. And that –you know, our department is one hundred per cent committed to having that dialogue with our First N ations people, with their input, a nd that's how we address every single issue within our department. This one definitely, you know, this is not like healthy food, this one is not like a flood, this one – there's lives lost. And, you know, we know how sensitive it is. We d on't want that to happen to anyone. But we also want to respect our First Nations and we will respect our First Nations.

We'll not only respect their treaty rights but we will respect their hunting for cultural purposes. We certainly respect that. I respect it even more now because I truly understand it. I've been there. I've seen it. I've talked to them. I've talked to those elders, especially the grandmothers, who, you know, they are so proud of their young hunters. This is their tradition. I get that. But do they want their children, their grandsons, granddaughters–you know, the granddaughters are hunting too, and they're proud of that. This is a very sensitive issue, but we, as a government, we have to make decisions.

And we will always respect the treaty rights of our indigenous people. Mr. Swan: Well, I think I agree with the minister that words do matter, and it's why the Premier's (Mr. Pallister) words were so damaging and inflamed an already difficult issue. The words in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which preserve treaty rights, are also important and have taken on a great importance in terms of dealing with issues.

Does the mi nister take the position that any of the meetings that she's had–her day in Turtle Lodge or other meetings with First Nations or with elders or with organizations –does she believe that that has been a constitutional consultation, or does she believe that that's not necessary? Ms. Clarke: You keep referring to words that have been said in the past by others, not by myself. And I think, as a previous minister in government, you know very clearly how words spoken can be taken out of context.

I think you understand that as good as anybody, because when you are a political figure in the public, and especially in the media, they are looking for every crack that they can find to discredit you. And I think that is, clearly, has been the cased in the past and it wil l continue be to –to be the case. And it's even more so critical when it's an issue that affects everyone, really. This particular issue affects everyone.

2204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 And, clearly, as I've indicated, the consultations that I have with the First Nations –all indigenous people all across Manitoba, whether it's young hunters or elders, whatever –we will continue those consultations. I have given them a commitment that my door is open, and if they have concerns or they have issues, that my door is always open to them, regardless. And I don't expect –because they are northern and it's very costly for them to travel, and that's why I make the effort to go to their communities.

I can make one trip to the northern part of our province, which I plan on doing this summer, taking a week and just going and visiting all the northern communities, ones that I specifically have already indicated I'm going to go to. And when I go, we have discussions on so many issues. And it's kind of interesting. But, you know, very seldom is the iss ue of hunting brought up other than the fact that in their celebrations and their ceremonies, the type of food that they have, the significance of that, the pride they have in that.

I know you have a lot of questions in regards to this particular issue a nd you've already acknowledged that this does not come under the Department of Indigenous and Northern Relations. We certainly are proud to be able to have this dialogue with our First Nations. We feel in the past two years that we have gained a lot of t rust and respect from our First Nations and indigenous people throughout the North and the province and that we –they now feel that we can have an open dialogue and that opportunity for them is always there.

So this issue has been on the table for a while , and we certainly acknowledge that it will continue to be an issue that's discussed . A nd we will definitely be listening to our First Nations and indigenous people. Mr. Swan: Well, first just to make it abundantly clear: I'm not suggesting that the words the Premier (Mr. Pallister) chose to put on the record in any way reflected the words or the views of this minister. But, unfortunately, we know that, as the minister, sometimes you have to deal with the fallout of things that happen elsewhere in government.

But the minister has put on the record that she believes there may be an impact, may but not necessarily, be an impact on treaty rights. I appreciate that the minister is not the only one dealing with this issue, but the question I have is very cle ar: Does the minister believe that the consultation she's had have reached the level of constitutional consultations, under

section 35, or not? Ms. Clarke: I'd just like to acknowledge and put on record, as of today, there is still a formalized consultation process that's ongoing at the staff level, and I think that's very significant. And I will say, once again, that the discussions within my department and along with my staff, myself and our indigenous people, those consultations and those opportunities for dialogue will always be there. Mr. Swan: All right. I thank the minister for that. And her department has not provided any support or other assistance to any First Nation community or nation or organization, under

section 35, keeping in mind there ma y be other areas of government that may have taken on that responsibility. I'm just talking about the minister's own department. Ms. Clarke: Well, as I indicated right from the onset, we have been working with Sustainable Development. They are the lead in this initiative, and we will continue to work, you know, along with any other department, whether it's Sustainable Development, whatever issues, we continue to support our other departments. But our main goal, definitely, is making sure that we are consulting with our indigenous leadership and their communities. Mr.

Swan: And, again, just getting to the minister's comment that there may or may not be an impact on treaty rights, has the department received a legal opinion on that issue? Ms. Clarke: I think you could probably clearly understand that legal would come under Sustainable Development, and I'm sure that they've been working–I would certainly believe that they'd be working with legal advice on this issue. Mr. Swan: I thank the minister. And just really one question before we move on. Does the minister believe that geographic considerations ought to play a role in what a framework to ban night hunting would look like?

Madam Chairperson: I am going to remind members, once again, that this le gislation has not

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2205 been introduced into the House at this point. The discussions now have become too close to discussing the bills and the potential content of bills coming forward, and we do not want to have a situation where we have more members who are not present to discuss bills to have an opportunity to raise a matter of privilege in the House. Ms. Clarke: And, for that reason, I will not comment on that question. Mr.

Swan: In the course of her day of consultation and her other meetings, has she hear d from individuals or groups that believe that there should be geographic considerations taken into account on that issue? * (11:20) Ms. Clarke: The only geographic –and I indicated to you already, the only discussion we had geographically was our elder grandmothers who expressed depletion of moose in the northern part of the province. That was the main concern that's been issued, you know, in a general way. Mr.

James Allum (Fort Garry-Riverview): I have a number of issues I want to address with the minister, but I wonder if I can just get some clarification on some answers that she's given so far. I understand that the deputy minister for Education and Training is also serving as deputy minister – acting deputy minister for Indigenous Affairs. So when w ill a deputy minister be hired to serve as a full-time deputy minister? Ms. Clarke: I don't think I indicated that the acting deputy minister would be hired. I said there was a competition out to hire a deputy minister from our department. I have no date on that.

I do not do the human resources within my department. Mr. Allum: Okay, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. I guess I'm at a loss to understand how in a department as ginormous as Education and Training there would be time to do indigenous affairs at the same time, and so I'm assuming that's a temporary situation, and so t he question was, when will a deputy minister be hired? Ms. Clarke: Well, again, Mr. Wilson's title, clearly, is acting deputy minister, and I think that in itself would indicate that that is a temporary situation.

I've also indicated that there's a compet ition open to hire and this is a very –has been advertised very broadly to hire a deputy minister for, specifically, Indigenous and Northern Relations. But I would have to also add, Mr. Wilson has brought a great deal of knowledge of our department while st ill doing his work in Education and Training. We also have some very talented staff here, as I've already indicated, that have been in this department a very long time and are doing a great job.

And we aren't just doing status quo, getting through the days, you know, with the staff that we've got and an acting deputy minister. When I think back to a year ago when I was the minister of two, what I consider, very distinct departments within our government: municipal and indigenous relations. We had one mi nister and we had two deputies. Now in that capacity we have two ministers and a deputy as well as an acting deputy, and you know what? We managed just fine. We're doing good. We're doing well. All the issues are addressed. We have no backlog in our workload at all.

In fact, we have–we've actually done a significant–what a I consider a significant amount of work and I can't praise my staff enough for the work that they do, and that includes the staff in the N orth, as I've indicated. You know, it's difficult for them to work without direct–you know, directly meeting with us every week. But we have phone conference calls with the staff and our department is in no way suffering at the this point. However, having said that, we look forward to a full-time deputy minister in this department. We still have a lot of on- going work. We've accomplished amazing things.

We've got –Operation Return Home, and those families are finally home after seven years, great things happening there. Shoal Lake road is under construction. I could just go on and on and on about the good things that are happening, and you know, we've had shifts in departments. We've had shifts in staff, and I'm sure, coming from a previous government, you totally understand that because nothing is s tatus quo forever.

But , when you work with qualified, professional staff that know their job, they can actually go from department to 'gartment' because they have knowledge of what's going on and they have knowledge of what our goals are as government, and I think that's significant. Mr. Allum: Yes, I thank the minister for that. I just asked when. That's not the question; I just wanted to reiterate, I just asked when the full -time–one would think that a minister would want a full- time, permanent deputy mi nister, not a part -time acting deputy, but maybe I have a different perspective on that.

2206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 You also –the minister also indicated that she had–the department has an 18.5 per cent vacancy rate. That's a remarkably consistent number that we've heard throughout Estimates. Is that a government target? Ms. Clarke: Okay. I'll just –in regards to the deputy minister, I expect it will be very soon. Stay tuned. [interjection] Yes. We're–it's a process, as you know. They've got–I'm not sure exact closing date for the applications, but I have heard from our Premier (Mr. Pallister) that they are really excited about the number of applications.

I think that's something to be really excited about. And indications were that they're looking for someone that really, really fi ts this department. I think that's encouraging. So I'm excited, but I'm not concerned because I know we've got great HR people that are going to put somebody really great into our department to replace somebody great that we've already go there. So no concerns or worries from my perspective, going forward. I look forward to it. In regards to vacancies, as I've indicated, our vacancies are most specifically in the northern part of the province.

And I, certainly, understand first-hand from being there. We literally walked from office to office in Thompson and–about why that vacancy was there. And, you know, Freda had absolutely the best information. She not only told me when that vacancy occurred, why it occurred, but who was covering off on that job, and i t was really reassuring. She literally had every position covered, whether it was from herself or whoever. And I just have a great deal of confidence in her management skills there. We all experience this.

I've been in business myself where, you know, I' ve had staff shortages, and sometimes I just couldn't even find the right person that I needed for my specific course –or–of action in my business. And, I mean, that happens within government too. You're very well aware of that. And is there a target with in our government at this rate? Absolutely not. We are doing–we're doing things differently than the previous government, and I'm actually very proud of that. Things needed to change, without a doubt. But are we targeting to work with minimal staff? No.

We 're targeting to work with really qualified staff, staff that's engaged. We also realize that staff have to be happy in their positions, and I have to say, for the most part – clearly, I can only speak to my staff, but they come in with a really positive meeting–attitude. And, actually, really proud of the goals that we've accomplished. And that's really encouraging, because it sure gives us a lot of enthusiasm to keep going. And, by doing so, we're also meeting needs of the people that we're serving within our department.

And, when we're talking about engagement with our leadership in our communities, I think that's where it's most significant, because I have seen a real change in their attitude, going forward. They are coming to trust us and to work with us, and we are accomplishing really significant goals. I met with the chief and council just a week ago, and they had such an extensive list. And we kind of got a handle on where they were coming from. And, you know, it went back 10 and 15 years, and they were simple issues, but they were never addressed.

And so I've made commitment to this one particular community that I'm going to specifically work with them–myself and my staff –and we're going to start checking off those issues, so that they've got peace of mind. They were prepared to barricade a significant highway because they didn't think anybody would listen. That's the first opportunity. And, when I heard that this was going to happen, I invited them in. They were so happy to be there. In one hour, w e established a timeline; we established a meeting, a second meeting to go forward.

You can't do that without good staff, and I think that speaks really highly on our department. * (11:30) Mr. Allum: The Premier, in discussing, once upon a time, the night hunting issue, said that it was a practice that could lead to a race war. In relation to the MMF agreement, he said that money was hush money or persuasion money. Do you agree with that characterization? Does the minister agree with that characterization? Ms. Clarke: I'm not going to speak to words that our Premier has said. He has the opportunity speak as he wishes.

As I've indicated, what's important to myself, my department, is the dialogue and the consultations we have with the people that we are representing in this government. And they have been most respectful and they will continue to be just that. Mr. Allum: Well, presumably, when a premier uses such language or when a premier speaks in general, he's speaking for the entire government. So unles s I

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2207 hear it from you now –from the minister now –I would assume that she shares those sentiments and that characterization of those issues, unless she's willing to put on the record right now that she doesn't share those views. Ms. Clarke: Well, clearly, yo u can have whatever assumptions you wish to have. That's your opportunity to do that. I can only speak to the relationships that I share with the people that I'm representing and specifically, as I've indicated, we've got 64 First Nations, 52 Northern Aff airs communities, as well as the Metis Federation.

And the Metis Federation, as well –President Chartrand and I have an –actually, an excellent working relationship, and I would like to acknowledge that he's been reclaimed as president for the Manitoba Metis Federation going forward for another term. These relationships don't just happen. When I came into power –or when I was appointed as the Minister of Indigenous Relations two years ago, one of the first events I went to–I think it was even in the first week that I attended–and it was with our federal minister Carolyn Bennett and it was with the Metis Federation.

And when I walked through the door, President Chartrand was there to greet me and he literally threw his arms around me and, I'll say, tried to lift me off the ground. That's not an easy feat. But anyway, he was so excited because he had not had dialogue with a government official in 10 years, and that was–that's his exact words. And since that time I've met several times with President Chartrand and, you know, there, too, a very respectful relationship.

And the fact that we always have the understanding that we will not always agree on everything, they have a perspective on issues sometimes that is what they feel best represents their people. And we have a job to do as a government. And as there –you're right. You indicate the Premier (Mr. Pallister) is the head of our team, and I have great respect for him, absolutely. And–but when I meet with the people of this province, our indigenous people, I have grown to have such a respect for the way they present themselves and – regardless of the issue that we're talking about.

And, I mean, they have many issues that really concern them and they're not going to go away. We have an understanding that this is a long-term process. You don't catch up in one year, two years or four years, whatever. So we have made priorities of certain issues that have to be addressed right away and a lot of those issues are issues that are carried over. We're working, really, wi th great success on a positive relationship so that they feel that they do have a voice in government. And I think that's the difference you've brought forward.

You know, some very significant issues this morning, and I indicated they're sensitive issues. But, you know, I think there's great pride in the fact that we can sit with them and talk about these sensitive issues and have an understanding, and I think they always leave the meeting feeling that they have been listened to and I think that's importa nt.

And I try to my best ability when I'm discussing their issues, whether it's with my staff, with our Cabinet, with our caucus or with the Premier, for that matter, that I ensure that their issues are brought forward in a really respectful manner and that they know that one conversation doesn't end it, that there can be many more whether it's in form of a formal consultation like we've had a Turtle Lodge , or a meeting in my office, or a meeting in their community. There's always going to be differences opinion, but that just leads to good government.

I've learnt a lot, and I'll continue to learn, but these dialogues and consultations will continue. Mr. Allum: Well, it's not –it's sad commentary, I guess I have to say, that when the Premier, and he's quoted as saying so on the public record, that night head–night hunting is a practice that could potentially promote a race war; when he describes an agreement between Manitoba Hydro and MMF as hush money and persuasion money; that a minister of the Crown, a m inister of the Crown who is responsible for indigenous affairs is not prepared to take issue with that kind of language.

I don't know how in the world that would promote reconciliation. I don't know how in the world that would promote dialogue. I don't know how in the world that would promote understanding, and, I think, judging by what's on the public record with President Chartrand, he's not feeling any peace, love and understanding from the government these days. When was the last time the minister s poke to President Chartrand, and has she spoken to him since Cabinet ditched the agreement between Hydro and MMF? Ms.

Clarke: I am really happy to answer that question because I was probably the first member of our government, and more specifically our Cabinet, to meet President Chartrand after this

2208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 significant event, and I was, I think, to say slightly overwhelmed is even putting it mildly, at his response to me. And I think that really speaks to relationships. I was not apprehensive. I had to go speak at an event, a Manitoba Metis Federation national event within days. I was, as I indicated, I believe the first minister or caucus member to have that opportunity. I was not intimidated to go. I was not apprehens ive to go, because I know President Chartrand quite well.

I've met with him on many occasions, and we’ve had some really engaging and interesting conversations, to say the least. He's a very dynamic man, and he's a tough guy. He represents the Manitoba M etis Federation in a very strong and effective way, but, when I walked into that event, he was the first one of –to greet me, a big smile on his face, and welcome me. I probably had more photo requests at that particular event from his ministers and the Metis people than I've ever had, and I have a great relationship with all of them, all across our province.

You know, that just clearly shows a high level of professionalism. He has an issue with our government; however, he deals with it in the appropriate manner. Going forward, he's meeting with our minister of Crowns, and they are working on the issue. I have high respect for both of these individuals, going forward. But it in no way infringed on me being at that particular event. It was a CFS event. I was welcomed in a way that I am always welcomed, and we spoke very briefly about this particular issue.

It is not in my portfolio and we didn't elaborate on i t, but we both agreed he was dealing with it, and he would continue to deal with it in his own way. But we would never allow it to interfere with the good work that we're actually doing together. And I couldn't have been happier being at that particular event.

And I actually shared this with my colleagues, as many of them I saw and told them what a great experience it had been, and how proud I was of his professional and very distinguished way of dealing with it in the proper parameters. * (11:40) And, you know, I'm just finding, with the questioning coming forward today, where you’re trying to spread one issue in–and pit different government de partments aside from each other or individuals that are outside of government.

Y ou know, when you can have some one like President Chartrand boldly say: Y ou know what, t his issue belongs here; you and I are dealing with this; w e are going to go forward; w e're going forward in a positive manner for all the people that we're representing here today–that speaks volumes for me. Mr. Allum: Well, the line of questioning isn't pitting government against the MMF. Government has pitted itself against the MMF by describing the agreement as hush money and persuasion money. In fact, the Premier (Mr. Pallister) described it as that.

Premier also described the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Metis people, as a special interest group in our province who may not –and that the MMF itself may not actually represent the Metis people of Manitoba, all of which is not us dividing, but your Premier and your government doing that very divisive thing. So let the record show who's actually stating things and who's simply asking questions about it. Did your department have any role in reviewing the MMF agreement? Ms. Clarke: Well, as you can clearly understand, I'm a Cabinet minister, and you have been a Cabinet minister.

You know that there's discussions that are carried in confidence, and there are some that are public. But again, I want to 'reinterate', you know, the Premier chooses his ow n words, and I have my own experiences. And, specifically, you want to go with the Manitoba Metis Federation. I can't speak highly enough about the work that is happening with the Manitoba Metis Federation. The meetings that I've had with President Chartr and, you know, they can become very intense because that's the kind of leader he is. He's a strong–he provides strong leadership for his people. And he has a great following.

I've been to their AGAs, and they have, like, 3,000 people there. Manitoba Metis Federation in Manitoba is –they're a huge, a huge group of people. But they're very positive, and I think that, again, speaks highly of strong leadership. They're proud of who they are and they work together also as a strong team. They have their different cabinet ministers and their own structure within their own group. But I've also been to their communities that are high population of Metis people, and one of them is

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2209 St. Laurent. And I went for their Canada Day celebrations–not last year, the year bef ore–and I got to spend some time with their mayor and understand the Metis people a lot better. And it was a great day. I got to meet some of their elders and I got to meet many of the ministers that were there. And it was such a welcoming event and such a great experience. I think we all recognize, whether we're in government, whether we're in business, whether we're the Metis Federation, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, we all have a job to do.

And the job to do is to represent the people in the best way possible. And I think we all know, going into–when we're elected into a position and chosen by the people to lead in whatever way that we do –and, for myself, elected as an MLA but then appointed as a minister in this elite government that we're in –and t o work with colleagues that are all focused on doing the right thing for people of Manitoba, we have to take a high road and we have to expect and respect that there's going to be different decisions, there's going to be controversial issues, there's going to be sensitive issues.

And we will never, as long as we're here, we will never accomplish all our goals. We understand that. We may accomplish some, but not always to the level. But I think that the progress that we have made with all indigenous leader ship and communities has become extremely respectful. And I couldn't be more proud of that. And the Premier (Mr. Pallister) and I have had that discussion, and he has been very supportive of the work that my team does within this government.

I've also had the opportunity and had these same discussions with all our grand chiefs, and we all focus–you know, our grand chiefs also have many, many issues to deal with. And, at the end of the day, we always agree that were not always going to be on the same page. We're not always going to deal with everything in the same way. But, if we can leave a meeting with the same mutual respect, that's huge, and that's what we'll continue to do. Mr.

Allum: It doesn't sound like the minister's actually had a meeting; it sounds like you've met for a nice little chit -chat at an event you're at or some other thing you're doing. I asked you when–if you've met –had a meeting with President Chartrand since Cabine t ditched the agreement between the MMF and Hydro. I also heard the minister just say that her department did not participate in the review of the Hydro agreement, and yet the Crown minister –and I was sitting right here the other day –said that all departme nts participated in a review of the Hydro agreement.

So I want to give her last –a chance to –give the minister a chance to clarify. Did her department participate in that review? And, if so, who undertook that review in the department? And then finally wh at were the conclusions of the department's review of that agreement? Ms. Clarke: Well, I think the member opposite understands that Cabinet is all departments and that we do have discussions in Cabinet. You've been there; you understand that.

Going for ward, and, in regards to my meetings with President Chartrand, I don't know if you're aware, but most recently he's been in a campaign for his position that was called –within this past few weeks' time frame. He was just acclaimed this week. So he has bee n actually campaigning. I am available to President Chartrand at any time. He clearly has indicated if he needs to meet with me, I will be getting a phone call from him. He has not called phoning asking for a meeting, and I've had no specific reason to call him and ask for a meeting.

As indicated, he is dealing with our Crown's corporation right now, and, from all intents and purposes, I think that's the way he wants it. Clearly, if it wasn't, I know President Chartrand well enough that if he felt that he needed to meet with me, he would be calling. And I would make absolutely ever effort to meet with him at the earliest possible convenience. And, to indicate that I don't have meetings with him, just have chit -chats, you could not be more wrong. Our mee tings with President Chartrand are always lengthy.

And we met with him prior to the issue that you're referring to, and we had a very in-depth meeting on various issues that –within his mandate representing the Metis people of Manitoba. And we'll continue to have those meetings; there's no doubt about it. Absolutely a great relationship there. And the same thing within our government and our Cabinet and departments. I'm always at the Cabinet table, and, going forward, if there's any requests that come to our department, we're always there and ready to participate in any level possible.

2210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 Mr. Allum: So, then, there's quite an inconsistency between the Minister of Indigenous Affairs and the minister of Crowns. The minister of Crowns plainly said, at this spec ific table just a few days ago, that it was a whole of government undertaking to review the agreement with MMF and Hydro. Presumably, that means that the minister's department played a role in that review, not just her at the Cabinet table talking about the issue but her department. That's what the minister for Crown lands clearly stated.

So the question is: Who undertook that review in her department? * (11:50) Ms. Clarke: Well, I was not at that committee, that you were with the Crown minister, of course. And how you're interpreting his words, you know, that is your version of what he's said and that's how you've interpreted it. I wasn't there to hear it. So I won't comment on his words. That's –you were at the committee meeting. You had every opportunity to ask him to expand on that, if you chose to, and perhaps you'll have that opportunity again. I'm not sure.

But I wasn't part of that conversation, so I don't know exactly the words that were spoken by the Crown's minister and, therefore, I can't allude to what he may have been thinking, or saying, or how you've interpreted it. Mr. Allum: So that agreement had been around for six months, eight months, prior to it being ditched by Cabinet. So there must've been opportunity for members of the department to review it, just as the Crown minister's said was taken for the whole of government. At what point in those eight months, did the department of indigenous affairs review the MMF-Hydro agreement? Ms.

Clarke: Well, again, you're referring to comments that the m inister for Crowns has made. I was not part of that conversation. I did not sit at that particular committee. So I'm not going to comment on what he said, what you inte rpreted him to say. You know, you could reflect back to him and, you know, get him to expand on what –but I, clearly, was not part of that conversation. Mr. Allum: I'm surprised the minister doesn't have Hansard beside her bed each night reviewing it in full.

But, in fact, and I'm quoting here, quoting what the minister for Crowns said, quote: "It was a whole- of-government review because a lot of departments would have an interest in this particular and very unique proposal," as it was brought forward to government. So the question again: Who in the department reviewed the agreement and when did that happen? Ms. Clarke: I think that clearly indicates –I think your words were most of government? So, clearly, you're not giving full, you know, there's not a f ull disclosure of what those comments meant, or how it was said.

So, you know, for me to comment on another minister's words without having actually been there to hear it, it would be senseless for me to comment on it. Mr. Allum: Well, it would be a little startling to think that an agreement of this significance would not have been reviewed by the department of indigenous affairs. So I just put that on the record. The minister went on to say, quote, "Pretty well every department in government could be impacted by this particular proposal because it is such a comprehensive proposal", end quote.

He went on to say, quote, "Obviously, senior staff from various departments as high up as deputies would be involved in this particular review", end quote. So the question, again, to the minister: Did her department actually participate in this whole -of- government review? Who in the department participated, and when did they review it? Ms. Clarke: Well, once again, you're picking out particular phrases, particular words that could be totally different context if you're hearing the whole conversation. I'm not going to go down that road.

I'm not going to try to interpret words that I did not hear the minister's full dialogue on. And, again, you know, I think it's clear to say, that the m inister of Crowns is dealing with this directly with President Chartrand. And, from all indications, this is what President Chartrand has agreed to. This is what he wants. I've also indicated and p ut on record already that the relationship between President Chartrand and the Department of Indigenous and Northern Relations is a good one. It's been solid since day one.

And he reaffirmed that to me, face-to-face, that our relationship, in no way, is affected by any disagreements or any issues that he's working with our Crowns' department, or any other department in government, as a matter of fact. You know, we will continue working with him on issues that he brings forward to us. And that's one thing that we can be very sure of. If President Chartrand has an issue that he feels needs to be

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2211 directed to our department, he doesn't come from a different department through to us, he comes directly to us. And that's one thing I appreciate about him; he's very straightforward, he doesn't beat around the bush. We get right to business and we discuss whatever is of most urgent concern within our department. We'll continue to do that. President Chartrand, he's a very straightforward person, and, you know, the fact that he has chosen to deal with –directly with our Crowns minister, I think, is a very good indication that they're going to work things out.

They–there is a –I think, a desire from our Crowns minister to do the same in a very respectful manner, and I think that's been indicated. Their dialogue is continuing, and I have the greatest expectations that they will resolve it. This is the way, you know –it wasn't all or nothing. They opened up the dialogue, and I have great respect for both of them and, again, the greatest confidence that they will find a solution going forward. And I think that speaks highly of these individuals. Mr. Allum: Still having trouble getting a straight answer from the minister, here. The Minister of Crown Services (Mr.

Cullen) went on to say, quote, obviously we're dealing with, you know, First Nations, 'indishenous' –indigenous issues. We're dealing with municipal issues. We're dealing with agricultural issues. We're dealing with, clearly, environmental issues. There's finance is sues here, as well; clearly, justice issues as well. So, clearly, it's a whole -of-government approach to reviewing this particular proposal, would mean– because it could, quite frankly, impact all of those respective departments and an impact on a lot of Manitobans going forward.

So it's–I'm, frankly, quite astounded that the minister is now telling us that her department had no participation in reviewing the agreement between MMF and Hydro. So let me ask her this. As a minister of the Crown for indigeno us issues, did the minister advocate on behalf of MMF in regard to this particular issue? Did she stand with MMF on this particular issue? Did she defend the agreement between MMF and Hydro? Ms. Clarke: Well, I understand the aggressive approach the membe r opposite is taking on this, because it is a significant issue.

But, again, I have the greatest confidence in our Crowns minister, as well as President Chartrand. They're both very capable of working through the issue, and this is what we do; you know yourself from being a former Cabinet minister. The road isn't always easy. We know that. And it's what you do with what you've got to deal with. And within my department, we certainly never step aside from any issues that are brought forward to us. We have great expertise within our group, and, you know, the relationships that we've built are strong and–in regards to that–those relationships. There is–there was an event.

You know, I think I really want to put this on record, because it's really significant a nd it speaks to work that not only has happened within the Department of Indigenous and Northern Relations this past two years, but it speaks also of our Manitoba Metis Federation working together with our First Nations and our government and municipalities. And I think it's really significant and I think it would be negligent of me not to put on record and talk just a bit about the First Nations and municipalities business partnerships and additions to reserve forum that was held this week.

And it was organized by the Southern Chiefs' Organization, specifically, Grand Chief Jerry Daniels. He's been doing extensive work across our province, working not only with the First Nations that he approved–you know, that he was was elected by, but he is also working with our municipalities. And this speaks to the strength of our province, and it speaks to overcoming issues, and I think that's what–it's a goal that we hope, as a province, to reach.

But, to have that solid alignment between our First Nations, Manitoba M etis Federation, our municipalities and our government, it speaks of a direction that this province is choosing to go down and to be aligned with our Grand Chiefs and show our communities, our leadership, that there's better ways to build relationships and partnerships. * (12:00) Now, this event was a two -day event that was held, in our city of Winnipeg, this past week. They brought in, from BC, Saskatchewan, leadership people that have built businesses.

They were First Nations communities that were suffering financially over the past years and now have become very, very successful. And, again, I'm putting this on record, because it speaks to relationships and the value of relationships between different organizations, different groups of people, although we're 'culturey' different, and how we get to be successful as a community and as a province in–to listen to a chief

2212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 and council as well as a city, City of Kelowna, and the group from the First Nations there, and listen to the successes that they've had in coming together with the W estbank First Nation, City of Kelowna, because they worked together and they worked out their issues and now are being so successful and working together to become even more successful because they overcame small issues and great issues. But it's about par tnerships, and that's where our government is going in the future and right now. Mr.

Allum: Well, I appreciate that the minister's been to a lot of events; that's made perfectly clear by this. I'm not sure what else the minister's accomplishing, but, clea rly, she's at a lot of events. So let the record show that the opposition has no disagreement. The minister has been to a lot of events–no argument. As she –the minister indicates that they're all about relationships and partnerships, and yet with one of their most significant–government's most significant partners, Manitoba Metis Federation, the government intervened and interfered on an agreement be done between Hydro and MMF.

When they ditched–when the government, when the Premier (Mr. Pallister), dit ched, and the Cabinet ditched, that agreement, it was described as hush money, as persuasion money that the MMF and a member for Southdale has now put on record that he regards it as hush money and persuasion money, which is very disappointing for us to he ar. The MMF, itself, was described as a special interest group, not withstanding the deep historical roots that that, a nation, has in our province and in this region of Canada.

So I'm hard pressed to say, other than going to events, what relationships or what partnerships the minister is creating when, in fact, the reality of the government's approach, of the Premier's approach, has been to offer less than positive commentary about the relationships and the parties involved. The minister of Crowns tells us that he's participating in discussions regarding the turning of the page agreement between the Province and the MMF and Hydro. What role does the minister's department, the department of indigenous affairs, have with respect to provisions of that agreement? Ms.

Clarke: Well, I think, clearly, you know, your line of questioning remains consistent. And I think I've clearly indicated that there's a process in place, a very respectful process in place. And it's ongoing, without a doubt.

And as I've indi cated, I have the utmost faith in not only our minister, but our government, as well as President Chartrand and his – their election process is not over, so they are still in election process 'til, I believe, May 30th or May 31st, so, you know, for them to c ontinue, as we know as a government when we're in an election campaigning process, the day-to-day business is a little bit difficult to carry on. So I'm sure that is their first and foremost item of the day, shall we say. But, you know, President Chartrand also spoke at this event. And you seem to minimalize my presence at events.

These are not social visits. Let's be very clear. I met with several chiefs and I had individual meetings with many, many chiefs, many different municipalities that were there, a bout their partnerships and where they're going with their partnerships. And to minimalize this, that I'm just at social events, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The fact that I was given leave to be away a full day at this particular event was very significant, not just to myself personally as the minister, but through our department, as well as our government.

This was a significant meeting, and this was a significant learning and educational process. Our Province, our indigenous leadership are moving in a different direction. They're looking to be self-sustaining. And to minimalize it as a social event is really –I find that really disgraceful because they put a lot of effort into bringing these groups together. It is a first time –it was a histor ic event, and a lot of effort went into being at it, for me to be there, a lot of effort on behalf of Grand Chief Jerry Daniels, Southern Chiefs' Organization.

And one of the keynote addresses was President David Chartrand, and he spoke on his vision for the Metis and the First Nation partnership. This is no small initiative. We've got individuals here. President Chartrand is working on many issues, just as our Premier is, just as our Cabinet ministers are in this government with the support of all our col leagues. We are engaged with these people looking for better outcomes, not just better financial outcomes, but a better life for our First Nations, for our Metis people. We're all working towards the same goals.

And the fact that, you know what, we are aligning and working towards significant vision for the future is no small feat. And to kind of minimalize, you know, this type of event is –we have

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2213 come a long ways, and we're not stopping. We're moving straight ahead. And I think this clearly indicates, to o, President Chartrand isn't sitting, dwelling on one issue every day of the week. He's out speaking at these events, and he is showing his vision for the Metis Federation, where they want to align, where they want to join, whether it's the municipalities or the First Nations or whatever. But they –we are working towards common goals, and there is shared services.

And the sharing of information and how we can make this province a better province overall speaks very clearly to what we have accomplished to get us this far in two years. * (12:10) Mr. Allum: Well, I want to turn over the questioning to my friend from Kewatinook, and let her ask about her people. But, in the absence of the minister actually providing any substantive information, tabling any doc umentation that indicates all of the achievements and accomplishments that she so vividly describes this morning, we're at a loss to think that these are mere words and not actually substantive actions.

The minister–member for Minto (Mr. Swan) and I, mys elf, both had the privilege of serving in Cabinet, and, yes, we went to many important events, but that is one small component of a much larger responsibility. And, in fact, this minister has responsibility and fiduciary obligations to First Nation, Metis and Inuit people in this province. And it is her obligation, as the minister with those responsibilities, to advocate on behalf of those peoples when issues germane to those peoples arise at the Cabinet table.

For the minister simply now to say that sh e played no role in the MMF -Hydro deal, that her department did not intervene in the MMF -Hydro agreement discussion, and that she, herself, as a minister, did not advocate on behalf of the MMF and the people of –the Metis people in Manitoba, is, I would suggest, an abdication of her responsibility, her political responsibility and her fiduciary responsibility.

Being a minister is more than showing up at an event; it's actually working on the behalf of the very people–and the minister rolls her eyes at me a nd makes a face about it, and I appreciate maybe this is hard to hear –but one would expect, on this really, really fundamental, foundational issues, that a minister of the Crown takes their responsibility much more seriously than what we've got from the minister this morning. With that, I'll turn it off –over to my friend for Kewatinook. Ms.

Clarke: Well, I would just like to put on record that I take my role as a minister very seriously, and I think if you were to have a conversation with some of our chiefs and councils or President Chartrand, I'm not about social visits and I'm not about social events, but it is part of what we do and it is part of the learning process and–to be there in that capacity. But–and I'd also like to clarify, when you 'indiclate' I play no role in representing our indigenous communities, you couldn't be more wrong. And that is your assumption, and, in no way, does that speak to my role in this government. Ms.

Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): So I've gone to the Premier (Mr. Pallister) during Executive Council, and he stated on record, for anything that I asked regarding indigenous people, that I was to go to the individual ministries. And still–so I did that, and I still don't get any answers from the ministers themselves. So I just wanted to put that on record. Every time I ask, in Question Period, for help for my people, the PC government deflects me to go to the feds. Now, I have a great working relationship with my federal cousins, as you guys tell –call them, so I know what they have put on the table for my people.

And it's actually quite disturbing as to what this government hasn't picked up in trying to support and help advance my people. And it's quite disturbing the amount of money that's on the table that you guys are leaving on that table. You know, we need help. We need–we actually need to be able to live. I, myself, I know that because of all the policies previous in past, I don't have a long lifespan. There is just physically no way –I was brought up on a First Nation. There were water quality issues that I'm dealing with today because of those neglectful policies from the past. And that's just me.

There's so many First Nations people that are having the effects from when –in childhood, drinking this–these waters. They're now seeing –there's Sagkeeng First Nation, for example, which is not in my riding –people are dying left and right from cancer because of the chemicals that were dropped into the rivers in those–in that First Nation.

2214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 And, right now, I've actually gone to you three times now, Minister, for the problem in Little Grand Rapids. Water–sewage water is pouring, and I have the videos, pouring into their lake. And those people are drinking it. And my husband works for PennCo Construction. They're building a water treatment plant. And he went and looked at that pump that was put in there. It's a $2,000 pump that was put in there several years ago, and it burnt out. And so nothing's been done.

There was a guy recently that came out –I don't know which company it was; he doesn't know either–that replaced that pump. And I stayed at a hotel there in the c ommunity, and he was joking: That ought to fix things for another couple of years. And he was joking. And then the lodge owner was quite disturbed, because he was laughing at the fact that it's just a band-aid solution and that he's going to be coming back. And the lodge owner was trying to say, well, they should– you should put a nice big pump in there and, like, make it work better for the people. And this guy was just laughing: What do you care?

It's just Indians. And that kind of thing is what I deal with all the time. And, you know, my husband assessed it, if they put a nice $10,000 pump, we could prevent all these people from getting cancer, costing our Province or even taxpayers more money in the future, and simple solutions like this. You know, $10,000, it may seem like a lot money, but, if we pay that now, we won't be dealing with the exacerbated effects in the long term. And so I would like to know –you told me that you had tried to address it in opposition.

And so I'm wondering, when I try and work with my federal cousins, they haven't heard anything regarding this from this province as of yet. And so do you have a – can you cc me those letters you've sent, or is there a way I can get copies to verify that you –this department has been working on the Little Grand Rapids issue, specifically? Ms.

Clarke: I want to acknowledge the member from Kewatinook for being here today and for us being able to have a dialogue, which, you know, we could've probably talked about this one just –face to face at any time, just be aware of that; that, you know, if you have specific issues that you feel that our department should know, I want you to always feel welcome to come and discuss them with myself or my deputy or whoever, because I know, from the sincerity of all th e issues that you always bring forward, that you do have great concern for your people, and, rightfully so, because you know first - hand what the issues are, and you also know the short-term and the long-term effects.

And I want to acknowledge that, because you clearly are a very caring person, and you're always right there. I know that the people that you represent know that they have someone there that not only appreciates being their representative but deals with the issues, large or small, because sometimes it is those smaller ones that become large ones –exactly what you say. If they're not acknowledged and they're not dealt with, pretty soon they do come–they do become bigger ones, and, when they come bigger ones, they're obviously more expensive. And I totally understand what you're talking about at Little Grand Rapids.

I've been there. I've seen their system. I was horrified. This –and this is a number of years ago. So, previously –the previous government did nothing about it either. * (12:20) The one thing that I can share with you, and I'll try and get you more information in regards to the specific community, but our government is, for First Nations, is working more clos ely with Water Services Board, and they are going to be overseeing projects in the northern part of our province and with the First Nations.

And , for me , that is –that's great news, because having been the Minister of Municipal Relations before, that's where Water Services Board comes from. And we –there was –Northern Affairs communities were funded through there, you know, when it came through the infrastructure money in the past, because I actually got to sit on one of those selection committees way back in the day. And there was good representation there for the northern part. So now to know that First Nations are also a part of that, that's a huge step forward, and I think the good part, too.

And again, I'm –I don't have the specific information on this particular community, but we intend on having a closer working relationship with Indigenous Services Canada, our former INAC group. I had the opportunity to sit with them all day this week, and we just generally talked about a few things, but we also talked about the need for a much more closer communication dialogue and working relationship. And, actually, this is something that our First Nation chiefs have brought forward in our meetings this –specifically, in the past six to eight

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2215 months where, you know, they're opening up a lot more and we're discussing a lot more and we're getting more in depth in regards to the specific in– issues that exist on First Nations all across the province, but more specifically in the North, as we know that things are a lot more challenging there and much more difficult for their leadership and for the community's people. And you're right, it affects their health one way or another; even if it's stress or worry, it affects their health, and that concerns us.

So we're going to be meeting very, very soon with Indigenous Services Canada from the group here in Winnipeg. Minister Bennett was supposed to have been here this week, and I had –supposed to have had a meeting with her. But very often when she's coming here, she doesn't make it here. She ended up in The Pas instead, so I don't know what prompted that. But, you know, we are going to find a way so that we communicate because these issues are overlapping, without a doubt. And so we want to have a closer relationship between our First Nations, the provincial government, the federal government.

And, of course, you have a very important role in this beca use you're there first -hand. So very significant, and I thank you for the work that you do there. Ms. Klassen: I appreciate trying to get that relationship, you know, the fact that you're trying to work on that relationship. That's really fantastic. You know, there's a lot of people that say there's a struggle on this side of the –you know, we're in politics, right?

We're going to hear that, oh, it's them that doesn't want to meet, and then you're going to hear that it's these guys that don't want to meet, and so–and then we're just left out in between, still waiting in limbo forever. A lot of the –to speak to what my colleague here was talking about, none of my First Nations get anything in writing as to all these great works that this ministry is supposedly doing. And I have a business background, and so I keep telling–get something in writing.

And they say nobody wants to sign anything when we do have meetings with them, or, you know –I–write it on a napk in if that's all you have, but get something in writing saying that this ministry will work with that First Nation on a specific issue. But the–and that's just advice. But my next question is St. Theresa Point, the Island Lake communities, people are pla gued with boils. And I've never personally seen one. Maybe I got out of the reserve in time because none of my kids have that. But within these last 10 years it's rampant. I don't know–I don't even know what a boil is.

But even with these walkers, these stop meth walkers, a lot of them had to stop walking because of boils. And I don't know whether that's specifically due to–we're all MSRA, we all have that super bug within us, and so we're now resistant. So I don't know where that's coming from, and a lot of people are saying it's from the water that we drink in the communities, because I've gone there for the last couple of years–thanks to my position, I'm now able to afford to go home and visit my family. But people are plagued with boils. And that's something that needs to be addressed immediately.

It's affecting quality of life. And even during the fire evacuations, I literally had to call ambulances for a boil. And the ambulance paramedics were saying, well, that's something you don't need an ambulance for, right? And I'm like, no, seriously, this person's passed out. We can't move her. She screams in pain. We don't know, and there's blood everywhere. And, you know, it looks like a gunshot wound, this person that was lying there in the bathroom stall passed out.

And so , if that's something you guys can look into and work with the Ministry of Health, because I know if I try and bring that up, such a personal issue publicly, I don't want that, you know. I don't want – because I know the first thing that' s going to come out in media is, you know, well, they're dirty Indians, they should shower more, you know, not understanding that we don't have running water in a lot of our homes in the North. And so I'm telling you guys this, I don't want this to be a public thing in question period.

So I would really appreciate this ministry starting to address that and working with the Ministry of Health. I was wondering, have you ever heard of a First Nation bringing that issue forward? Ms. Clarke: Well, I have to acknowledge, this is the first I've heard of it, and I actually met with the chief from Pinaymootang was here yesterday and I agreed, you know, he invited me up this summer and I confirmed one hundred per cent that I was planning to going up to the Island Lake First Nations there this summer anyway. So a meeting is being arranged.

In regards to boils, I don't know how to answer that because, you know, if you're indicating that this

2216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 2018 is kind of an outbreak, I can tell you, I've had one, so it's not unknown. It's not a life -threatening. I don't know that they're contagious; medically, I can't answer that at all. That –and I'm not sure that our Health Minister could either. That's very definitely a medical issue and it needs to go to medical doctors. But, you know, it–and it could be something that is just right now I don't even know how to answer that. I mean, I've been suffering with a chronic cough since last October.

Many of my colleagues, many of my family and almost everybody I know has had this cough, and it's going on for months and we don't know why. Like, it needs to stop. And I don't want to minimalize this issue one bit, but if there is a lot of it, it needs to be looked at and you need to know why and you need to know what's causing it, and most specifically, how do you stop it, because what's more concerning than the unknown if you don't know what's causing it and so on and so forth. And, you know, if there's –we need to ensure from a medical side, you know, what the cause is and how to fix it. So great point. Ms.

Klassen: It's nice to hear that you're going to the Island Lake communities. There is a lot of TB out there, and so just so you're aware. My own daughter is a carrier, but she's on high–she was put on a drug regime for about nine years as a child when she was– she was first diagnosed as a carrier when she was nine, but thanks to government shifts and everything, nothing was done about it 'til she was 13. And then she was put on really strong drugs for about a year that she actually had to fly into Winnipeg to be given these treatments so that it could become dormant.

And so, just so you're aware when you're going to these communities, this is what I face. And some communities I go in with a mask, and it's just to try and start teaching people it's okay to walk around with a mask and stuff like that, and as a means of hygiene and stuff like that. It's very hard for them because, again, some–our First Natio ns don't have running water and there's always something in every community that's going around. And so just so you make sure that you ask the chief what's going on or the nurse in charge if there's anything you should be aware of so that you're able to protect yourself.

Another issue with that is Javex bleach got put on the dangerous goods list, and it's so hard. Javex is, like, almost 26 bucks for a one litre, and yet that's what we need to make sure that we can clean our houses again. Growing up, we always had everything Javex-bleached down so that –our health was my mom's primary concern. And so, if you can work on that. But my next– Madam Chairperson: Order. The hour being 12:30, committee rise. SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT * (10:00) Mr. Chairperson (Doyle Piwniuk): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of Committee of Supply will now resume the consideration for the Estimates for the Department of Sustainable Development. At this time I invite the ministerial and opposition staff to enter the Chamber. As the staff is taking their seats, I'll get the minister to introduce her staff into the Committee. Hon.

Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sustainable Development): So I have the same staff with me as yesterday, again: my Deputy Minister Rob Olson; acting assistant deputy minister of Water Stewardship and Biodiversity, Lori Stevenson; policy analyst , Thomas Williams; and assistant deputy minister of Financing, Crown Lands Division, Matt Wiebe. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Minister, and I'll get the opposition critic to introduce his staff. Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Yes, this is Chris – Mr. Chris Sanderson, the one and only. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you.

As previously agreed questioning for the department now will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Altemeyer: I think last night was rudely interrupted in the middle of the minister's response to a previous question, so wh y don't I cede the floor to her. Ms. Squires : I appreciate your patience. I know I kept you in suspense for all night waiting for this

May 11, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2217 answer, so I'm just going to deliver it very succinctly, if you like, yes. So, 31 FTEs is the answer to your question, and by category you wanted to know, so that included: three managerial positions; 21 professional/technical positions, five of those were middle managers; and 16 were professional or technical positions; and seven administrative positions. Mr. Altemeyer: So just to double–when I look at the book, I came up with slightly different numbers.

I was–it looks to me like there'd been a reduction across the whole department of about 230 FTEs since '16-17. Does that jive with the minister's records? By our calcul ations in 2016- 17 the department had 1,124 FTEs and this year we're down to 892–just wondering if that's the minister's understanding as well. Ms. Squires: Thank you very much for the question. And, if you did look on page 11, you would notice that we do have a reduction of the 31 FTEs that I had explained earlier. But what you are referring to is the fact that we no longer count seasonal positions.

We don't have an FTE assigned to them; we just have the dollar figures assigned to them. So the reduction that you're seeing is the way we count seasonals. And I can assure you that the dollar amount is the same for our seasonal staff and right now that, you know, as you know, that includes the forest, the wildfire fighters, the people that work in campgrounds, the people that work in the parks and all of those people that are doing that hard work on a seasonal basis for the department are still engaged in the same manner; we just don't assign an FTE to it; we just provide the money in another way.

And this does give me a really good opportunity to thank our director of wildfires, Gary Friesen, and his entire team of wildfire fighters who have been working incredibly hard. They are managing so many fires, as everyone is aware of, as what we've been reading in the newspapers and seeing first-hand on television. It's quite a horrific incident this year with early firefighters, and I just commend the work that that department, Gary Friesen, is doing in ramping up his team.

He's got many of his seasonal firefighters back on the job, and, by May long weekend, he'll have his full cohort of seasonal firefighters deployed and working to fight all the wildfires that are erupting throughout the province. And I also would like to put on the record that we have engaged with some of our partners who we have reciprocal agreements with. That includes Minnesota and Ontario, if I'm correct, who will come in and assist us when we need that support for firefighting.

So we really appreciate the work that our seasonal workers do, and we will continue to engage them and deploy our resources and ensure that we've got everyone trained and ready to go. As most people know, May 11th, which I believe is, well, today; it's the opening of camping season, and we've got people in our campgrounds and our parks ready to go.

And I do want to take this opportunity to wish everybody who's heading out on the weekend to have a fun and safe weekend camping and enjoying our beautiful parks and all that they have to offer, and would like to just remind e veryone to use those extreme cautions and follow all of our restrictions as it pertains to our dry season and be very, very mindful of the fire conditions that are present. * (10:10) Mr. Altemeyer: Thank the minister for that answer. What is the vacancy rate across the department and maybe by division as well?

So I don't need to get into the details of it for all of the subsections of the department, but, you know, what's the vacancy overall: vacancy rate for Parks; for Finance and Crown lands; Environm ental Stewardship, just that layer of the department. Ms. Squires : So we certainly are committed to filling vacant positions on a priority basis, and right now we do have a number of competitions under way and working hard to fill some of the positions that are currently vacant.

I can tell you that as of May 1st we had a vacancy rate of 14.8 per cent, which is more or less in keeping with what we have had for a variety of–or for several years. Generally speaking, our vacancy rates fluctuate between 10 and 18 per cent, and that's looking at vacancy rates in the department going back to 2014. So right now we're sitting at a 14.8 per cent vacancy rate in the department, which translates to 132.1 regular and term position FTEs that are vacant out of a total of 892.45 positions in the department.

Like I said, there's a number of competitions under way and human resources is assisting us in finding people to fill those positions and I look forward to welcoming

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-3-45c
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 3rd hansardpdf 45c.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	af2501c627d6791dee092ddf043992d7a74c6b56

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