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May 15, 2013

40th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2013-May-15 (PDF)

L042 - Wed 15 May 2013 / Mer 15 mai 2013

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 15 May 2013 Mercredi 15 mai 2013

ORDERS OF THE DAY

STRONGER PROTECTION

FOR ONTARIO CONSUMERS ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 RENFORÇANT

LA PROTECTION

DU CONSOMMATEUR ONTARIEN

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

POWER PLANTS

POWER PLANTS

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

POWER PLANTS

TRANSPORTATION

BREAST CANCER

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

CASINOS

ELECTRONIC COMMERCE

LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD

OF ONTARIO

MINING INDUSTRY

AGRI-FOOD INDUSTRY

SCHOOL TRANSPORTATION

HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE

STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT

VISITOR

DEFERRED VOTES

LOCAL FOOD ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR

LES ALIMENTS LOCAUX

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

MAC MCKENNA

ONTARIO BUDGET

PETERBOROUGH DAY

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

TAX CREDIT

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

RESOLUTE FOREST PRODUCTS

SOUTH HASTINGS BASEBALL LEAGUE

ONTARIO WINE AWARDS

BRUCE SAUNDERS

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

WITHDRAWAL OF BILL 40

REGULATED HEALTH

PROFESSIONS AMENDMENT ACT (SPOUSAL EXCEPTION), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES PROFESSIONS

DE LA SANTÉ RÉGLEMENTÉES (EXCEPTION RELATIVE AU CONJOINT)

PROTECTING CHILD

PERFORMERS ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES ENFANTS ARTISTES

POPE JOHN PAUL II DAY ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LE JOUR

DU PAPE JEAN-PAUL II

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

POLICE WEEK /

SEMAINE DE LA POLICE

ASIAN HERITAGE MONTH

POLICE WEEK

ASIAN HERITAGE MONTH

POLICE WEEK

ASIAN HERITAGE MONTH

PETITIONS

AIR QUALITY

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

PHYSIOTHERAPY SERVICES

TIRE DISPOSAL

AIR QUALITY

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

PHYSIOTHERAPY SERVICES

LYME DISEASE

AIR QUALITY

WIND TURBINES

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

OPPOSITION DAY

WANT OF CONFIDENCE MOTION

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

STRONGER PROTECTION

FOR ONTARIO CONSUMERS ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 RENFORÇANT

LA PROTECTION

DU CONSOMMATEUR ONTARIEN

Resuming the debate adjourned on May 14, 2013, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 55,

An Act to amend the Collection Agencies Act, the Consumer Protection Act, 2002 and the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act, 2002 and to make consequential amendments to other Acts / Projet de loi 55, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les agences de recouvrement, la Loi de 2002 sur la protection du consommateur et la Loi de 2002 sur le courtage commercial et immobilier et apportant des modifications corrélatives à d’autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Good morning, everyone. I have two words for those of a certain age in this chamber when talking about consumer rights, and those two words are Vic Tanny’s. Anybody remember Vic Tanny’s?

Interjections.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Remember Vic Tanny’s? You’re looking at a woman who had a lifetime membership to Vic Tanny’s. I took that out about a month before the place closed down.

I also bought a beautiful dining room table. It had some flaws in the wood that appeared over time. It also had a lifetime warranty. The place that made it closed down. What can I say: consumer rights in Ontario over history.

This bill deals with consumer rights. It makes some small steps forward for those who are besieged by water heater salespeople, debt settlement agencies and real estate brokers. One wonders why energy marketers aren’t in the mix, because that’s where we receive—certainly in my office—the greatest number of complaints.

As usual with most Liberal government bills, it doesn’t go far enough—we can amend that in committee—but I hesitate to really go full scale in attack mode, as I think some of my colleagues have done, on those who come door to door and try to sell us things. I’m also the daughter of a father who, during the Great Depression, the only job he could get was selling vacuum cleaners door to door. Quite frankly, we in this chamber all knock on people’s doors and engage in telemarketing. So again, I hesitate to go full scale anti those who have to do that for a living.

Tough times call for all sorts of jobs, and many people have had to do that, including our own children. I remember that my daughter worked for a student painting company, where she went and knocked on doors to sell contracts. And hey, I just joined up with Greenpeace, a wonderful organization. How did I join up? Again, because they knocked on my door. So let’s not attack small business here. Let’s not attack those who try to make a go of it. It’s hard enough to get small business done. However, of course, we need protection against those who would assail us unscrupulously.

I had a constituent come to me and talk about debt resettlement, who said, “I did a consumer plan through a debt resettlement company where I’m paying back”—she owed a great deal of money to a great deal of places—at usurious interest rates, I might add—on credit cards and other loans. She went to debt resettlement and they came up with a consumer plan. But this young woman was so in over her head, owed so much money, that even with a repayment plan that essentially robbed her of her right to access to credit at all, she would be in debt for a long, long time.

I said, “Did they discuss bankruptcy with you?” She said, “Well, they discussed bankruptcy with me but I couldn’t afford to go bankrupt.” There’s a concept that only Ontarians may understand fully: She couldn’t afford to go bankrupt. Why could she not afford to go bankrupt? Because the fee that the debt resettlement company was going to charge her was more than she could afford. This is absurd. I think, Mr. Speaker, on the face of it, it’s absurd. Here are folk who are already in debt; they’re coming to an agency for help. The agency can give them help if they so wish. Sometimes they do, but charging huge fees up front to give that help is quite frankly unethical—it’s unethical.

This bill goes some small way towards rectifying that. The sad reality is, of course, that the punishment here doesn’t really quite fit the crime. Taking away licences—you know what that means: That means that 12345 Inc. opens up again as 891011 Inc. Really, there have to be some serious consequences for those who engage in robbing—and that’s what they’re doing: robbing the public.

I, along with the member from Oak Ridges–Markham, a couple of years back actually talked and delivered a two-party bill to this assembly dealing with franchisees who were losing their life savings, particularly in racialized communities, because they had invested with a franchisor who was less than scrupulous. We’re not talking about the costs of water heaters here, or hundreds of dollars for debt resettlement; we are actually talking about tens of thousands, in some instances, where again, innocent victims invest in franchisor schemes and really never get their money’s worth.

In fact, some of them simply leave the country, and they’re left holding the debt and none of the proceeds for that investment.

The problem here—and the problem in fact across the board—is, what do you do when this happens to you? What do you do if you are the victim of someone unscrupulous who has just stolen a great amount of money from you? You can go to the Minister of Consumer Services and you’ll probably get a sympathetic ear, but that’s not going to get your money back. The only recourse left to most people in Ontario is the civil court system. Quite frankly, that’s the recourse that most people have, and that’s it. That’s only available to those with money.

So here you are, you’ve invested $25,000 in a franchise that never panned out, you lose your life savings, and you want to go after the person. He may live down the street from you, but to go after him you have to hire a lawyer, and you have to invest thousands of dollars just to go after him to try to recoup what you’ve already lost. This makes no sense.

So what do we need? What do we really need? We really need a consumer advocate; that’s what we need, Mr. Speaker. We need somebody who is going to go to bat for those who get robbed by anybody, whether it’s a water heater, whether it’s a gym membership, whether it’s a table manufacturer, whether it’s debt resettlement—somebody who’s going to stand up for you. You need that; you absolutely need it.

What else do you need? You need to be able to access the legal system and you need to be able to do that at an affordable price. This means an expansion of legal aid so that folk who can’t otherwise afford to hire a lawyer could actually get some legal representation if they’re trying to go after somebody who has stolen from them.

We also need some real repercussions for those who engage in this kind of practice. We don’t only need to take their licence away; we need fines that are substantial. We need to actually impose those fines and collect them. We need to go after these people and make sure they don’t just reopen under another name somewhere else. We need to do that too.

By the way, one of the greatest consumer frauds happening right now is in the development sphere. Just the other night I was at a meeting in my riding that was organized against a 30-storey tower or two right at the edge of High Park. This is an abomination to all those who live there. Over 100 people at this meeting all wanted a say in the kind of development that was going to happen in their neighbourhood, and guess what? Guess what? They’re not going to get it, because the developers have deep pockets.

They can hire lawyers and city planners, and they can actually go all the way to the Ontario Municipal Board, fight and win there against a group of community activists who are taking a day off work and have no resources.

This is the kind of true fraud that’s perpetrated across the entire city of Toronto. We in the New Democratic Party have demanded, in fact, that the OMB get out of Toronto affairs, that it not be there. We have a planning department; we have an appeal process. Why are they there in the beginning? They’re the last bastion for scoundrels in the development area in Toronto. So there’s a huge area that’s not addressed by this. But certainly, again, as far as it goes, it’s a little step, a dainty, little step forward in the right direction, which we’re hoping to strengthen at committee and which needs to be strengthened.

In terms of the real estate part of this, it’s very strange. I don’t quite understand why the Liberal government is going after real estate agents, but who knows? Maybe there is something in it for them. I guess we’ll find that out at committee as well. I wish they’d go after the OMB and go after, again, the kind of legitimized scoundrels who are really wreaking havoc in some of our neighbourhoods.

To sum up, think twice before you invest in lifetime memberships in anything. Think twice before you buy anything with a lifetime guarantee; chances are, it’s not. Work to strengthen this bill and, my goodness, work to strengthen consumer protection, period, across Ontario, because we have so precious little of it. We need way, way more; way more than this bill can provide, way more than is even envisaged by this government, including getting rid of the OMB in Toronto affairs. So I’m looking forward to the committee; I’m looking forward to strengthening this. And again, don’t buy anything with a lifetime guarantee.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Questions and comments?

Mr. Bob Delaney: It’s always a pleasure to follow my friend and colleague from Parkdale–High Park. While it is not the subject of this bill, I certainly share her antipathy toward the Ontario Municipal Board.

But let’s talk about what’s in this bill. What’s in the bill is a series of measures aimed at helping consumers with regard to door-to-door sales and protecting them from some of the naked abuses these days in door-to-door sales. We’ve all encountered it. It seems to happen around dinnertime.

The one I enjoyed was the guy who came and tried to sell me energy services. He kept going on about how the government required him to do this. I looked down, and all of the things that seemed to be there were there. There were very nice plastic-laminated tags; everything was all colour coordinated. But it was all phonier than a $3 bill. Finally, I brought out my legislative ID card, because I just gotten home, and I said, “Excuse me, I am the government,” and he turned tail and ran.

That gives you an idea of just how naked the abuses are these days in door-to-door sales. What does this bill do? It’s going to prohibit upfront fees before services are rendered. It limits the amount of fees. It requires something we don’t have now: clear contract disclosures. And it prohibits misleading sales practices and misleading advertising, because some of it is not just misleading; it’s an out-and-out lie.

There’s very strong evidence these days of harmful practices used by companies that offer debt settlement services. Believe it or not, at the moment there’s not a lot of legislation governing misleading or predatory practices in debt settlement services. This bill is going to fix that.

In other types of door-to-door sales, this bill contains important measures that restore sanity and fairness to the marketplace, and we should get on with it.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: I listened very carefully to the member from Parkdale–High Park, and I would say this bill does address some of the consumer issues and consumer protection issues. I think, more importantly, she spoke with some detail and some passion on the part dealing with the collections and debt settlement services. I tend to agree.

Now, I would say that, in Ontario today, the biggest debt and problem for most homeowners—especially seniors—is the extraordinarily expensive energy bills that people are getting. In fact, right now, if you can’t pay your energy bill they’ll shut the power off. If they shut the power off, first of all there’s a disconnect fee, there’s a reconnect fee, and then there’s a—you have to give the utility a down payment or at least a letter of credit of some sort. So this government could do a lot more without this bill to affect the consumers of Ontario—protecting the consumers of Ontario—by making life more affordable.

If I look at even filling up the car with gas today—there’s a good example. We get a lot of complaints in the riding about the price of gas. When they added the HST to the gas, that was about 10 cents or 12 cents a litre overnight when they harmonized the HST, just on the tax increase of the provincial portion of the HST—eight cents per dollar. If gas is $1.50, that’s 12 cents. That’s 12 cents overnight on the price of gas.

I don’t dispute that this bill has three sections, and the three sections are dealing with the consumer protection with respect to the door-to-door salespersons, the people aggressively selling hot water heaters or whatever else they are selling you at the door. I think the cooling-off period is a good idea. I would say the real estate industry—I’m supportive of the industry; it’s regulated—but by providing some clearness that there can’t be fees and commissions, those are appropriate covers for consumers in Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

M. Michael Mantha: Ça me fait plaisir de rejoindre le débat ce matin. Ma collègue de Parkdale–High Park a vraiment indiqué de bons points dans son discours où elle a apporté son point de vue du coin de sa région. Puis c’est de quoi qu’on devrait tout le temps apprécier dans la Chambre : de regarder d’où ces points de vue-là viennent et comment ça peut protéger les consommateurs.

Je veux juste rajouter à ce que mon collègue de Durham a indiqué sur les prix d’hydro. Oui, c’est vrai. Quand on regarde à vraiment trouver des mesures qui ne sont pas incluses dans ce projet de loi pour vraiment aider nos aînés et puis les personnes dans nos communautés, il faut vraiment qu’on regarde les décisions qui ont été faites dans le temps sur la TVH. Le soleil s’est couché et le lendemain matin les gens se sont levés et puis ont trouvé une augmentation ridicule, en fait, sur les prix des consommateurs. Et puis c’est vraiment ce que réellement il faudrait qu’on regarde.

Dans ce projet de loi, oui, il y a de bonnes étapes. Oui, il y a de bonnes mesures pour commencer la discussion et pour vraiment trouver une façon de protéger nos gens. C’est une bonne étape, mais il faut qu’on regarde aussi à implémenter des étapes où on voit qu’elles ont démontré du succès.

Pour vous donner un exemple, monsieur le Président, dans les communautés autochtones ils ont développé un genre de loi, un genre de politique où, avant qu’un vendeur de produits vienne dans leur communauté, il faut qu’il s’adresse au conseil; il faut qu’il s’adresse au chef de la communauté autochtone et lui demande avant de se présenter dans la communauté pour venir à bout de vendre ses produits. Et puis si ça ne se rend pas place, il ne peut pas rentrer. S’il rentre sans la permission du chef, de cette façon-là, les ventes sont plus ou moins éliminées.

On a eu beaucoup de succès dans mon bureau, à mon office. Ce sont ces idées mêmes qu’on peut retrouver et qu’on peut vraiment implémenter dans ce projet de loi.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Merci beaucoup. The minister responsible for seniors.

Hon. Mario Sergio: Thank you very much, Speaker. It’s good to see you in the chair. We know that we are going to have a good day today.

I have to say that I appreciate the comment by the member from Parkdale–High Park, and I have to totally agree that I think this bill should travel to committee and make it even stronger. I think the intent of the bill is excellent. I’m very pleased that the minister has—she acted very quickly in bringing this piece of legislation to the House here, but I think the member is quite right: Let’s move it on to the committee and let’s get more information; let’s bring it back; let’s bring a better bill. I think the best thing we can do is give more protection for our consumers, for our people. I will be speaking on it shortly and I will address some of the issues that I’ve been facing.

One of the comments that the member made—she doesn’t know why there’s a real estate portion. Again, it’s the same thing, like all the others: protecting consumers. When you have a greedy real estate agent and brokers who, for the sake of making a bit more commission, if you will, or getting more money for the vendor at the expense of other people—they’ve been causing a really serious problem on the market.

At the end, it is protecting the consumers who are there in the various fields. It doesn’t matter who; it doesn’t matter in what form. They are still our consumers. I think it’s good to see this bill here. It does a number of things. I hope that we can expand on it and include lots of other things. I have some examples that I’m going to give during my few minutes later on, and I look forward to that. I commend the member for her remarks.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Parkdale–High Park has two minutes.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Thank you, everyone who had input. Certainly one of the things I would say to the member from Mississauga–Streetsville is: Exactly. Why aren’t energy retailers included in this bill? Energy retailers surely are the ones we get the most complaints about.

Again, I go back to how we’re the only province, I think we can say, where it costs too much for some folk to go bankrupt. This is an absurdity, but it’s a reality. This bill makes some small steps. It needs to make bigger ones. It needs to have more repercussions on those who actually commit this kind of fraud.

Finally, something I didn’t have a chance to speak about but is critically important in terms of consumer protection is payday lenders. Payday lenders are the scourge of this province. They charge over 500% interest. I tabled a bill a few years back to limit the interest charged to 35%. It had the backing of a great many consumer advocates. It is, in fact, the law in Quebec. That’s why in Quebec they do not have payday lenders. If we really want to protect consumers, we would actually do the protection where it hits the most vulnerable.

It hits the most vulnerable, with payday lenders who are springing up everywhere across the city and who—let’s face it—only those who have no other resources go to. It’s essentially legalized usury. The government knows that; we know it. We need to do way more about that.

Consumer protection, as far as it goes—yes, it’s fine. Let’s make it stronger. Let’s make the repercussions more serious. But let’s also look at the bigger picture of consumer protection in this province, and the best place to start is by shutting down all the payday lenders and actually allowing people to get out of debt in the first place.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Always a pleasure. Onward and onward.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Hon. Mario Sergio: I have a few minutes to address some of the content of this proposed legislation. We are dealing with Bill 55; it’s called, properly, the Stronger Protection for Ontario Consumers Act, 2013.

Let me say, first of all, that I’m delighted to debate this particular piece of legislation. I have to compliment the Minister of Consumer Services for bringing it forward quite expeditiously. I think it’s high time. It’s needed. I think the people we serve are very happy to see this piece of legislation coming through.

I have to say that if we lived in a perfect world, when we had a good piece of legislation like this one here we would immediately send it forward and do our very best to approve it as quickly as possible. At the same time, often we get not-so-nice pieces of legislation and we should do away with those pieces of legislation expeditiously as well. But reality sinks in and we are not living in a perfect world. We have to do what we have to do. I hope that the democratic process will take place and we’ll send this bill to the proper committee and bring it back, hopefully, with some good amendments strengthening the bill and strengthening protection for our consumers.

Just to show how bad it is out there, on two particular occasions I happened to be home and my wife answered the bell. She goes and she’s there talking for quite a while. It happened to be a young man. So I went to the door myself and I said, “What’s up?” “This man wants to come in and he wants to inspect the hot water tank.” The young man showed me the name tag. I looked at him and I said, “I don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t think we have to. We have a fairly new furnace, a fairly new”—“I have to come in and take a look at your water tank.” I said, “No, you don’t have to.

I thank you very much.” “But I have to. I’ve been told by the company that we have to do this service.” I said, “No. Thank you very much.” So my wife is looking at me like, why am I treating this young man a bit harshly? I said, “I’m sorry. We know what we’re doing and we don’t have to have you in to take a look at the water tank.” So he left—murmuring, but he left. This was one of the occasions.

One of the bad ones, Speaker, again comes from this active constituency that I have. Friday mornings I usually reserve for seeing constituents who want to speak to their local member. I have these two ladies, middle-aged if you will. They come in. One was smiling and the other one was very serious. So I said, “What can we do for you?” One says, “I have a problem,” and the other one starts to laugh. I said, “Okay, who has the problem: the one laughing, or the one who is more serious?” She said, “Look, we have two contracts here bearing the signature of my husband.

Why I am so upset”—and the other one is still laughing—“is because my husband passed away 10 years ago. There’s no way that my husband has signed this particular contract.” It was from one of the gas companies. As with many others that we receive from time to time, we managed to have it cancelled, but it took some time, and I wonder how many other people are out there who are being taken. They may not be aware, and they keep on going and they get ripped off. I don’t think that’s fair.

I think this bill goes a long way in providing some protection for our consumers. Sometime even ourselves, Speaker—and I have to give you this example, because there could be other people out there who very innocently will be taken, and then they will have to suffer the consequences. As the member from Parkdale–High Park said, once it happens, what are you going to do? Are you going to go to court? Last year we made some changes to the patio. Our house is an older house; we have a little patio there with some pressure-treated wood, and some of the planks were quite old and cracked.

We decided to change some of those. We had this acquaintance we knew, this contractor, and we didn’t get anything in writing, I have to say. I’m ashamed to say, but we did it because we trusted the person. Maybe if there is a solution, some member of the House or someone listening there can tell me what to do. But he changed some of the two-by-fours, pressure-treated wood. What happened—and you would think that someone doing that type of work would know what kind of wood they have to buy. The wood was very fresh. What happened immediately after the installation?

With the hot weather, the sap started to come out, so we couldn’t use the patio anymore; it was just impossible. I have tried everything to make sure the sap wouldn’t come up anymore—nothing doing. So I still have a problem; I still have to decide what I’m going to do with it. Perhaps I’ll get cement. I may have to get it done again and have well-seasoned pressure-treated wood.

But addressing the bill itself, Speaker—

Hon. Jeff Leal: You should get the Speaker to help you. He’s just built a home.

Hon. Mario Sergio: I hope so—anyone with some knowledge of what to do, because it is a shame. I felt bad to go back to the guy, because, as I said, if he knew better, he wouldn’t have done it. Like the member from Parkdale–High Park said, “Well, now that you’ve got it, what are you going to do about it?” It’s one of those things. I have to live with it; I’ve got to make some changes, probably some more expenses, but I have to find a remedy.

But the bill that is in front of us is a good bill for protection for our consumers, for the people of Ontario. As I said before, I feel sorry, especially for a lot of our seniors, that they have difficulty. Sometimes they feel much compassion when somebody comes to the door, and it’s very nice when they offer some help. They may not know; they do not understand.

A young lady came one day, a Saturday afternoon, and she spoke with respect to conserving energy and whatever; she gave me the big spiel. She said, “We are giving a dozen light bulbs once you sign the contract.” I said that’s very nice, that’s a nice incentive, but I said, we really don’t need it. “You mean you don’t want to take some freebies from the company?” I said, “I love your offer, but we really don’t need it.”

They come with all kinds of ideas, all kinds of scams, and how many people are not prepared to be aware that we do have people—and we have people out there who want to make a living. This is the sad part. Sometimes, while they try to make a living, other people are being scammed, and we have to be very careful. It is our responsibility to see that our people are not ripped off and that the proper contract gets signed. So I’m glad to see the door-to-door sales and especially the debt settlement services as well—this has been a big issue for a long time.

I think I have mentioned very briefly a bit on the real estate side. I hope that we can do something because it can be very traumatic, especially for a young couple, when they drive around. They put in all kinds of offers, and they say, “You know, we are sick and tired of playing the game.” They may even pull out from the market or they end up even getting ripped off even more in some cases.

It’s good to see the legislation here. I do hope that, indeed, it will go to committee quickly. I hope that we will have a good consultation from the public, from stakeholders, and bring it back quickly, as soon as possible, and enforce it on behalf of the consumers that we are trying to serve.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

We do live in a free country. We have to remember that, within this democracy and the freedoms that we offer—which is what’s wonderful about Canada—you have the right to succeed and enjoy all the benefits of success, but you also have to accept the responsibility that there could be failure resulting from bad decisions. Most of us realize that, as mature adults in a free country, we want that opportunity to succeed, and we accept the responsibility that there could be failure.

I think that through education we can inform people that they have to be responsible for themselves, that there could be unscrupulous people knocking on their doors, offering them services that are inappropriate or too expensive, or something that’s wrong. I think there are other ways than just legislation in helping people who are vulnerable to be protected from the odd person who might be unscrupulous, shall we say.

At the same time, I think we have to acknowledge that most salespeople are well-intentioned, good and honourable people. They’re trying to make a living. They can’t make a living unless they have a good reputation and are well thought of in their community, otherwise their career would be over very quickly. So we must be careful not to condemn a worthy industry that provides a good service.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Miss Monique Taylor: I’m happy to stand in response to the minister responsible for seniors. He absolutely made some really great points.

People knocking on doors—you know, everybody does need to make a living. Door-to-door sales is an important part, it’s part of history, it’s what folks have been doing for many years. But making those phone calls and making those appointments beforehand, I think, are a crucial part of that decision. That would only protect consumers further, by knowing that if someone does show up at their door, they shouldn’t be allowing them in because there was no appointment made previously. We need to make sure that our seniors and our citizens are safe.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: First let me say that I’m very pleased this morning that we still have our beloved Ottawa Senators in the game. Thank you for allowing me to say this.

Back on Bill 55: It’s amazing that in 2012 the ministry received over 3,200 complaints and inquiries on water heater rentals, which continues to rank number two on the ministry’s top 10 complaints list.

I just want to thank the member from York West, the minister for seniors, for his presentation. My advice to the Ontarians who are listening to us this morning is never, never, never sign anything that is presented to you at the door. Take the contract, take the time to read it. You know that you have time to cancel it after. But never, never sign anything.

Currently, the Consumer Protection Act only has limited protection for consumers with regard to door-to-door water heater rentals. This legislation proposes a change, with better consumer protection for door-to-door sales of water heater rentals: It requires plain language. It prohibits delivery during an extended 20 days—because they wanted to come in the next morning to install it—so now the consumer will be protected. It provides stronger consumer remedies when these rules are breached, so you can cancel the contract. It requires mandatory recorded verification calls of key terms in contracts.

All of this needs to go to committee as soon as possible to make sure that Ontarians are protected.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Rob Leone: I’m pleased to respond to the minister responsible for seniors’ commentary today. I certainly hope that his skills as a minister are far superior to those as a handyman. Those stories, I think are obviously much—one of the things I like about this legislation, if I can be totally frank, is that everybody has a story about a time where they had wished, perhaps, that the consumer protection legislation was much more robust than it is. I think people have to navigate and, certainly as the Minister for Correctional Services alluded to, there has to be some degree of trust, which is at stake here.

From my perspective as well, Mr. Speaker, I think that an element of competition, where people are able to choose from a variety of providers, will not only ensure that a company can meet the best price for consumers, but also customer service factors in when consumers choose to go with a company or not.

Interestingly enough I had that constituent talk to me very recently about consumer protection legislation in the province of Ontario. His name is Ryan Smythe from Cambridge. He talked about how there is sporadic consumer protection with respect to return policies of products in Ontario. He was looking at other jurisdictions and modelling what we should do in Ontario after other jurisdictions. It just goes to show, Mr. Speaker, that people are actually talking about these sorts of things.

I think it is one of the responsibilities of legislators to come up with ways to protect consumers. From that perspective, I hope to contribute further to this debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The minister responsible for seniors has two minutes.

Hon. Mario Sergio: I want to thank all members who made a contribution to the bill: the member from Cambridge; the Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services; the members from Hamilton Mountain and Carleton–Mississippi Mills, as well, Speaker.

The member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills is quite right: An older person, even though older, should have the knowledge of the “buyer beware” situation. But of course, Speaker, when I came to Canada—back in the 1950s and 1960s, we used to leave our car open in the driveway with the keys inside and our house door open—nothing would ever happen. But we are not living in that world anymore; things have changed. Therefore, I think we have to be a bit more aware. We agree with that.

Let me say, Speaker, and I want to correct my record here: When I said 35% of the 55-plus speak no official language, actually it’s 37%. Just to say a bit more, 68% of 55-plus are immigrants as well. Why do I say this? I think we are known as Canadians to be very affable, very trustworthy people. Sometimes, even though now it’s changing, the views and mentalities are changing, we are still the type of people very trustworthy, gullible, and sometimes we do get taken.

I take the advice from my colleague, the Minister of Education; she has had some experience. I’m looking for some advice on how to get rid of my particular situation, but one of the good things in the bill is: no installation, no delivery of services whatsoever, within 20 days, for 20 days. I think this gives some time to consumers to think about what they have just signed, probably.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Rick Nicholls: It’s my pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill 55, Stronger Protection for Ontario Consumers, and also to follow the minister responsible for seniors in this debate—a true gentleman.

All too often, those in good standing in many professions are marred by a few bad apples that tend to sour consumers. As politicians, I think we can all sympathize with this reality. But it’s also important to set up rules across the board that are proactive, not simply react to the hot issue of the day. This bill is, in my opinion, yet another knee-jerk reaction following in the footsteps of some of the other Liberal bills, such as the Local Food Act and Wireless Services Agreements Act, which are somewhat light in substance.

But watching this bill get introduced, I feel like I’m watching CBC’s Marketplace: every week a new exposé on a shady practice that is hurting Ontario consumers. This episode it’s water heaters; next it’ll be wireless bills. While it makes for entertaining and informative television, it may not be the proper way to enact legislation.

Firstly, Bill 55 seeks to tackle the topical problem of door-to-door water heater sales. Getting tough on door-to-door sales is an easy thing for folks in this province to rally around. We’ve all had the unpleasant experience of a salesman stopping by, using high-pressure tactics such as asking to see your bills. Never, ever let them see your bills. They usually come at dinnertime. Maybe we should amend this bill to stop them from showing up at dinner. Maybe they’re hungry and they want to be invited in. But in all seriousness, there are many concerns with this industry.

A recent report by the Homeowner Protection Centre outlined the key problems that currently plague the industry right here in Ontario. It’s a thorough report, and it appears that the ministry didn’t read it, as this bill misses several of its recommendations. In their report it was found that Ontario water heater renters often are not aware of the details of the rental. As we so often see in consumer issues, the real danger is when a person does not know what they are agreeing to.

Prior to my entering politics, I ran a successful training and development company for over 25 years. In that profession I also taught professional sales training, whereby individuals could in fact earn a professional designation in sales. Earning what I called the CMS, certified marketing sales designation, required not only study but a proven ability in salesmanship, which also involved honesty and integrity.

Speaking of which, let’s talk about wind turbine sales reps. I heard earlier today about the discussion regarding energy sales reps. I’m not suggesting that all of the industrial wind turbine salespeople are unscrupulous, but unfortunately, in many instances, these particular reps approach members from my farming community with the hopes of walking away with a signed contract to install a few industrial turbines on a farmer’s property, and they offer huge government-funded annual subsidies in exchange for co-operation. I’ve learned that if it’s too good to be true, it usually is.

What they don’t tell you is that turbines will drive up energy costs. What they don’t tell you is that they may create potential health concerns. And what they also don’t tell you is that it will devalue properties. I was also taught in school, in Latin class, caveat emptor: buyer beware. If Ontario consumers were adequately protected across all industries and sales reps were required to be transparent, many farmers would not agree to these contracts.

Back to the bill, Mr. Speaker. The knowledge gap for rental heaters is of major concern. This bill does little to address this critical aspect. All contracts should be written and recorded, as the bill calls for, but moreover, they should also be written in plain language that the consumer can in fact understand. Further, this bill does not do enough to address the problems associated with cancelling a water heater rental agreement in this province. The bill doubles the cool-off period, meaning that a consumer has 20 days to opt out of a contract and get their money back.

But as we know, consumers often do not understand water heater rental agreements in the first place, and may miss the cooling-off period. People rarely complain about a new agreement immediately after signing. They complain once they experience a problem. These usually occur after 20 days, and consumers would be left high and dry under this proposed legislation.

Some of the barriers that hinder consumers trying to cancel are high buyout fees, restrictive appliance return depot hours, and even instances where consumers calling companies and trying to cancel were put on hold for long periods of time or even dropped entirely. How does the cool-off period resolve these issues? This bill does provide a few positive changes for consumers, but it does fall somewhat short. Getting it to committee can hopefully create a stronger bill to protect the vulnerable consumers.

Ontarians who are deep in debt are also vulnerable individuals. They feel that they have nowhere to turn, and often they look at debt repayment agencies as their only hope. Unfortunately, there are many who prey upon the less fortunate for a quick profit.

Advertisements for debt repayment agencies are all over the radio, television, Internet, and even through direct calls. I wouldn’t be surprised if we started to see some come around Queen’s Park, given how bad our provincial debt is.

In times of economic crisis, more and more Ontarians will be forced to turn to debt repayment agencies. The Ontario Association of Credit Counselling Services receives more than 100 complaints a month about debt settlement companies. Many more likely go unreported.

As it stands today, much of the risk for consumers occurs at the onset of the agreement as they are forced to hand over large service fees. This leaves consumers ripe for the picking. This bill would prohibit settlers from charging upfront fees, mandate that contracts be in writing and place a cap on the total amount of fees that can be charged. I hope this can help Ontarians who are in a very tough spot.

One of the more shocking concerns about debt settlement is that even after you enter an agreement with an agency as your chosen settler, you are the recipient of collection calls. Many people reach out for help in a desperate attempt to stop harassing calls from collection agencies. This bill does not address this concern.

How many years will pass while we try to crack down on businesses one by one? The Bibby family—Robert, Connie and Sydney from Chatham, my hometown—contracted out to have a new pole barn constructed. The project was valued at $16,500. The contractor demanded $15,500 upfront to purchase materials. I think all members in this House can see where I’m heading with this. Sure enough, the contractor never delivered or installed the new pole barn.

The diligent pursuit for answers by the Bibbys and other families led to consumer services of Ontario charging the contractor with nine counts of deceptive business practices and led to a settlement payment to local families. However, this settlement was much lower than the families had anticipated, as the company argued it didn’t have the ability to pay.

We must ensure that there are, in fact, the proper regulatory tools to avoid these practices across a wide range of businesses. We must strive to achieve true consumer protection, like the Consumer Protection Statute Law Amendment Act, 2002, which was introduced by our leader, Tim Hudak, when he was the Minister of Consumer and Business Services. By broadening the scope, you’re less likely to miss an industry and be forced to chase after them, one by one, as this government has been doing.

Showing their wisdom, the Bibbys emerged from this unfortunate affair with a number of solutions to help families avoid being scammed in the future. They suggested that companies should not be able to take more than 20% deposits upfront. This would help mitigate the damages incurred by families and individuals preyed upon by unsavoury businesses.

Second, they feel the consumer should have the right to put liens on contractors for incomplete or non-started projects, or for deposits to be returned with interest. In order to ensure proper documentation, we should enforce the issuing of receipts for values paid throughout the project.

Lastly, the appropriate penalties found in current legislation should actually be applied to those who disobey the code of conduct.

Instead of a patchwork of legislation aimed at solving the issue of the day, let’s do more to lay a foundation to solve the problems of the future before they happen. We owe it to the families across this province, like the Bibbys, to ensure that all consumers are protected, not simply the ones dealing with industries that are in the news.

I do support this bill in principle, but in my opinion, it does require several amendments to make it even stronger.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Sarah Campbell: This morning and throughout the course of this debate, there’s been a lot of discussion about energy retailers. There’s a good reason for that. That’s because—I mean, the rules and the regulations that are laid out in

section 2 of this bill are modelled after those that had been applied to energy retailers in 2010, by this government, when they brought in some new rules to “protect energy consumers” that involved disclosing how the contract price the companies are offering compares to the price offered by the local utility, providing training programs to their staff to ensure that staff know, understand and abide by the new rules, and to cancel a consumer’s contract without penalty in a number of circumstances; and to limit the cancellation fees that energy retailers can charge consumers.

Despite these changes, every quarter the Ontario Energy Board releases a top 10 list of complaints that are brought forward to the energy board, and some of the top complaints are miscellaneous contract issues; cancellation charges that are either being unfairly applied or are way too high; reaffirmation not taking place; the continued misrepresentation of the utility, where agents claim affiliation with the government utility or the Ontario Energy Board.

Really, what is happening is that we have rules and regulations that are in place to protect people against energy retailers, but they aren’t working. I don’t know that this is necessarily the model we should be using to protect consumers against other long-term contracts. We need to look at what’s already in place. There need to be a number of reforms. We need to crack down on energy retailers and, further, we need to apply some serious reforms to the sale of water heaters as well.

This has a long way to go. I’ll speak in my remarks later in greater detail about some of the other things I’d like to see.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Soo Wong: I’m pleased to be given an opportunity to speak about Bill 55, following my colleague from Chatham–Kent–Essex.

I love what our colleague from—what is his riding? Cambridge. He talked about how each one of us in this House has a story, but I think each one of us probably also has a nightmare story—because it isn’t a good story. That’s what we’re trying to address.

I was very pleased to hear my colleague from Hamilton Mountain talking about strengthening the bill when we get to committee, and to hear some of the great suggestions from all three parties coming forward.

More importantly, this is the right thing to do. We need to bring this bill to committee as soon as possible so that we can have this bill passed—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: The member from Chatham-Kent always brings an expertise and a commitment to the legislation that we’re discussing this morning, Bill 55. I would suggest that he is a very strong advocate for consumer protection, and just his remarks would endorse that.

In my case, I would look at it from the point of view of the collection agency business. That, to me, is the part where very vulnerable people who have fallen into difficult times are being preyed on again by unscrupulous bill collectors. There have to be some protections and rules around that, so that the individuals who have fallen into these tough times or circumstances are protected. I’m not sure this bill actually goes far enough, in this respect, in protecting consumers.

There’s a lot of language in here, and there are three particular sections: collection agreements, the door-to-door salespeople, and the real estate group. But it’s that particular group by itself that I think if the member from Chatham-Kent, in his rebuttal, will address the collection agency business—because if you look at the details, a collection agency is required to enter into an agreement with the debtor. Plain language is what’s most important in that.

The contract—these people, who are destitute in many cases, are being victimized by having these long, complex documents, not realizing they’re going to pay back 10 times what they owed if they are pressured into these agreements. In that case, I would hope the member from Chatham-Kent discusses that in his two-minute wrap up.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

M. Michael Mantha: Encore, ça me fait plaisir de me lever et d’ajouter mes commentaires à ce projet de loi. Je suis extrêmement d’accord avec les commentaires qui sont venus de mon collègue de Chatham–Kent–Essex, où il parle de pommes pourries. On regarde une industrie où—on ne veut vraiment pas la peinturer que tous les vendeurs de produits n’ont pas de conscience et qu’ils cherchent, à des moments, à prendre avantage de personnes en difficulté, mais certainement il y en a, des pommes pourries, parce qu’on regarde les 3 200 plaintes qui sont sorties de cette industrie-ci.

La collègue de Scarborough–Agincourt aussi a mentionné des cauchemars. Oui, parce qu’il y en a plusieurs de ces 3 200 plaintes-là qui sont des cauchemars. Puis c’est vraiment de quoi qu’il faut qu’on regarde parce qu’il y a plusieurs gens qui se prennent—soit c’est une honte, une peur ou une façon d’intégrité. Ils ont peur d’approcher leur famille pour leur expliquer qu’eux autres, à leur tour, se sont fait prendre avantage. Ils se cachent dans leur maison et puis tu n’entends pas parler de ces concernes-là, de ces plaintes-là ou de ces problèmes-là.

Quand on regarde les vendeurs, c’est vraiment décevant, mais ils ne regardent pas surtout à seulement regarder vers les aînés et puis prendre avantage des aînés en les mettant sous pression à leur porte en leur disant : « Il faut que tu prennes ces démarches-ci pour te sauver de l’argent. » Ceci c’est de quoi qui a été présenté de la part de la ville, ou c’est à cause qu’il y a une grosse possibilité qu’il va y avoir une augmentation d’hydro, ou il y a eu des changements de régulation—peu importe si ce sont des aînés.

Ils font aussi cela dans des régions et puis des communautés qui ont été prises par leur économie, où il y a eu des fermetures d’industries. Et puis, les agences de financement que mon ami, mon collègue de Durham, a aussi mentionnées—c’est important qu’on cherche à protéger ces gens-là. Je regarde aux commentaires de fermeture de mon collègue pour vraiment les adresser.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Sorry; two-minute response from the member from Chatham–Kent–Essex.

Mr. Rick Nicholls: I would like to thank the members from Kenora–Rainy River and from Scarborough–Agincourt, and my colleagues from Durham and also Algoma–Manitoulin, for their comments and response to my 10-minute view.

We take a look at what has been happening, and of course, I think we’ve all been victimized in one way or another through high-pressure tactics throughout our years, whether it be hot water heaters, energy companies or even condo sales, where they try to high pressure you because you’re down in a beautiful resort, and the next thing you know they’re exerting high-pressure tactics to force you to—“You can’t leave without it; this is the deal of the century.”

Well, we all know that these people use very high-pressure tactics in order to force people to maybe even feel guilty and that they need, in fact, take advantage. Perhaps what we should legislate is to have companies put all of their sales reps through a comprehensive, professionally designed and accredited international sales training program that will ensure honesty and integrity, and of course protect consumers as well.

I look at the farmers down in my area, and I spoke earlier about the industrial wind turbines. Again, I don’t want to come right out and say that they’re unscrupulous. I’m not suggesting that. However, they do use high-pressure tactics. They are not transparent and, of course, their contracts are steel traps. They’ve been written by lawyers and it’s just page upon page upon page filled with nothing but legalese. They kind of skim through it and say, “Listen, you don’t have to worry about this and this. Just sign here and you’ll get your $20,000 a year for 20 years.” Of course, people hear and see the money, and that’s what they do.

We need to protect even the elderly because they’re very trusting people. I believe personally that these salespeople will in fact take advantage. Again, thank you very much.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Sarah Campbell: It’s a privilege to be able to rise this morning and speak on Bill 55, which is titled the Stronger Protection for Ontario Consumers Act, which is said to offer new protections for door-to-door water heater sales, real estate transactions and debt collection.

While this bill is a step in the right direction, there are other steps that could be taken and other areas such as the door-to-door sale of energy contracts that also require attention.

Previously, I did a two-minute hit where I explained how the sale of door-to-door energy contracts is related to this, and that’s basically because

schedule 2 is modelled after some of the reforms that this government made in 2010. There is a correlation between the sale of door-to-door energy contracts and water heaters, and many of the companies that offer one service offer the other. The very fact that we tolerate door-to-door sales of these goods makes it extremely difficult to monitor the tactics and the techniques that are used by these companies and basically ensures that abuses will happen.

In fact, when it comes to energy retailers, the Ontario Energy Board has now released a list of the top 10 complaints from consumers, and despite action aimed at curbing these behaviours in 2010, as I mentioned, it’s clear that they are still occurring across this province.

These issues, like the general contract not conforming to regulation, cancellation charges being too high and unfairly applied; the re-affirmation call, which is something that the act wants to add to the door-to-door sale of water heater contracts, either is not happening or the customer trying to get out of the contract at that time is not having their wishes respected.

Despite clear changes that are supposed to curb this behaviour, the misrepresentation of identity—in other words, the salesperson claiming to be with a government agency or a utility—continues to be high on the complaint list, as is the failure of companies to process cancellations.

Another problem that has always existed is that the customer is not receiving a copy of the contract, which has been a considerable problem, particularly in the cases of forgery and fraud on the part of the salesperson, which has been mentioned by a number of speakers, even just this morning. In addition to the Ontario Energy Board continuing to report the failures and these changes—failures to properly verify the contract and the persistent sales tactics often are happening still, and they scare people.

The question is, why do these abuses exist? I believe they exist largely in part because we continue to allow the door-to-door sale of long-term contracts, particularly in the case of energy retailer contracts where the retailer is nothing more than a middleman and the retailer doesn’t provide any good or service in return for the huge profits they reap.

The only real cost for doing business for these retailers is the cost of commissions that feed the greed of the door-to-door salespeople and the fines that may or may not be levelled by the Ontario Energy Board when we can catch somebody in the act of these violations. Again, it’s extremely hard to prove that misrepresentation happens when it happens on the doorstep, because it’s often a case of, “One person says; another person says.”

Why do people turn to these services? In my experience, in a lot of cases it’s fear or coercion, but with a lot of people it’s also desperation because of the artificially high prices that we’re paying for energy in Ontario as a result of government policy. The 2011 report from the Auditor General noted that about 15% of residential customers had signed on with electricity retailers in the hopes of driving their costs down, but, instead, they were paying 35% to 65% more.

At the same time, he noted that of 17,000 complaints from the public in the last five years, the overwhelming majority were regarding electricity retailers, leading one to question why, if the government is so concerned with consumer protection, they’re not taking meaningful steps and not tackling this problem head-on in banning the sale of door-to-door long-term contracts altogether, to force these operators to appeal to potential customers through more traditional means such as advertising, which can be done with greater government scrutiny.

Yet, despite the apparent failure to get the energy retailers under control, the government seems content to transfer many of these failed strategies to the door-to-door sale of water heaters which, at best, is kind of a questionable tactic.

What’s worse is that the people who are victims of these circumstances are often those who can least afford it, like people on Ontario Works, WSIB claimants, seniors, those living on a fixed income, those with mental disabilities, students just out of school and others who are struggling to pay their bills. Many of these people are so desperate for relief from their high bills that when someone comes knocking on their door guaranteeing them savings on electricity or natural gas, they’re quick to sign on the dotted line.

While the government has set regulations on what can be promised, and in fact that savings can’t be promised, it continues to allow these sales to be made using methods where the enforcement is really negligible, like on the doorstep.

That said, it’s good to see that the government is trying to do something to protect consumers. If nothing else, this bill is at least a general recognition on the part of the government that it has a role to play in consumer protection, although I believe that the government has a stronger role to play.

But it’s not just government; we as MPPs have tremendous power at our fingertips if we choose to use it. If we choose to speak up on an issue, people will listen to us, and many of us are provided with the tools, like weekly columns, members’ statements and other activities where we can take part to raise consumer awareness. One of these initiatives that I have taken on personally to raise awareness is with RFID identity theft—that’s radio frequency identification—and the steps that consumers can take to protect themselves. I’ve purchased some sleeves that people can put their bank and credit cards in.

And I’ve let people know that starting next year, they’re going to have to be wary of their passports because they’re going to have the same technology. So we do have some power as MPPs.

Other things that the government can do: The government can have a boosted role in raising awareness of issues such as scams, phishing schemes, email fraud and other things. That wouldn’t be a bad thing. In fact, I would say it would be a big positive. It’s something that won’t cost a lot. Again, it’s just that we need to have the will to do it.

Certainly, this government has been involved in ad campaigns before on things like health care and education, and while some of those may have been employed at questionable times, others haven’t been—such as organ donation. I believe that the government could go a lot further with raising these issues. Reaching out to communities and sponsoring awareness sessions and other events could go a long way towards promoting consumer awareness.

Part of the reason why I’m so passionate about this issue is that I’ve worked with so many people across Kenora–Rainy River over the past number of years who have been scammed, mistreated and even lied to. Before I was elected, I spearheaded dozens of information sessions on energy retailers across my riding.

I targeted Ontario Works administrators, and I asked if it would be possible for me to organize an information session and speak to all of the Ontario Works recipients about their rights, about energy retailers and what to look for, and to show copies of some of the prepaid credit cards and the cheques that they may not realize that by just depositing them into the bank, they’re entering into a five-year contract.

I’ve seen the sense of helplessness and the embarrassment that people feel when they have been misled. Many of them are reluctant to come forward because they feel like it’s their fault. They don’t realize that these abuses are happening to people across the province, regardless of any mitigating factors. I’ve personally helped doctors, nurses, teachers and community business leaders just as often as I’ve helped seniors and people on Ontario Works or WSIB.

The point is, regardless of the steps we take to crack down, regardless of the fines that we levy or the threats that we make, the only way that we’re going to ultimately curb these behaviours is through education, making the public aware.

I’ll admit the government has some documents out there that are intended to protect consumers, and many of them are helpful. Some of the documents that the Ontario Energy Board has are a prime example of that. But the problem is that nobody wants to believe that they’re going to be the ones who are going to be swindled; nobody wants to believe that they will be the ones falling prey to a scam. People are proud, and they don’t want to admit weakness. That’s why we need a strong consumer advocate. That’s why we need to enhance our roles in the community.

There’s no reason why ServiceOntario or the OPP can’t be holding information sessions across the province to make people aware of some of the scams and to bolster some consumer awareness.

Most importantly, we need to crack down on the practices that we know are unethical. I think it’s fair to ask why we allow energy retailers to continue to offer contracts when we can virtually guarantee that they can’t provide savings.

There are always going to be scams, but why aren’t we taking steps to level the playing field? Maybe we need to take drastic steps, by eliminating the cancellation fees of certain services, by allowing cancellations at any time, by increasing the fines and penalties for violators, revoking licences and taking stronger actions. If the steps that we are taking aren’t working, we need to be willing to admit it and to take immediate action.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It’s a pleasure to welcome the family of Fiona Marshall-Young, our page. Kristin Marshall, Paul Young, Anne Marshall, Richard Marshall Sr., Madeline Burghardt, Richard Marshall-Burghardt Jr., Raffi Marshall-Burghardt and Tonnán Marshall-Burghardt. Welcome all to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Jeff Leal: In the members’ east gallery today I’d like to introduce an individual from Peterborough, Jay Amer. Just to remind everybody, Peterborough Day, 228 to 230, between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. Be there; it’ll be a great event.

Mr. Todd Smith: It’s a pleasure to introduce a constituency assistant from my office in Belleville: Ashley Harnden is here today. She’s very excited to try some Kawartha Dairy ice cream in the Peterborough reception.

Mr. Norm Miller: It’s my pleasure to introduce in the members’ west gallery Deanne Vincent and Stephen Kupfer, who are friends of my legislative assistant Adam Bloskie. They’re here watching question period today. Welcome.

Hon. Brad Duguid: It’s my pleasure to introduce two awesome interns from my office: Michelle Johnston and Katrina Sands. I have no doubt they’ll be taking this place over at some point in time.

Hon. Reza Moridi: It’s a great pleasure to introduce my guests Cynthia Antony, Maheisha Ravendra and Scott Dallen, sitting in the east gallery. Please join me in welcoming them there.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Page Jack Dawson from London West—his mom, Tracy Peifer, and dad, Blake Dawson are here to visit Jack. Thank you for being here—appreciate it.

ORAL QUESTIONS

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question this morning is for the Premier. Last night on TV you apparently apologized for the gas plant scandal. My question is, what did you apologize for? Are you sorry for not listening to the residents of Mississauga and Oakville? Are you sorry for building power plants in residential neighbourhoods? Are you sorry for paying companies not to build power plants? Are you sorry for buying five Liberal seats with $585 million? Are you sorry for destroying documents and keeping the truth from Ontarians? Or are you just sorry you got caught?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Energy, come to order. Member for Durham, come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Durham will withdraw.

Mr. John O’Toole: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would have thought there might have been a bit of a

preamble to that question that would have said something like you, “You know, you did the right thing, Premier. We’ve been asking for an apology, and you apologized.” I would’ve thought that that might have been what he said.

However, that is not what the member opposite said, so I will just say what I said last night, Mr. Speaker. I believe that it was important for me as the Premier in this chair now to say that I apologize, and I’m sorry for the process as it unfolded. I’m sorry that the decision was made in the first place to locate those plants where they were located, and I’m sorry it cost so much to undo that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Well, Premier, I’ll give you a little history. The Liberals failed to win a majority which would have covered your tracks; there would have been no scandal hearings. When we tried to get to the truth—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Energy, come to order. Next time you have to be quicker.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: —the Liberals prorogued this House then redacted, deleted and destroyed documents that would have gotten us to that truth. Now your political advisers have all told you that every one of those delay strategies have failed, so the next move is to concoct a political apology. You’re sorry you got caught.

Premier, Ontarians want more than a hollow apology; they want a refund. Will you order the Liberal Party to pay the money back?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Attorney General, come to order. Minister of Community and Social Services, come to order. Member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, come to order.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I really believe that my primary political relationship is with the people of Ontario, and I was speaking to the people of Ontario yesterday. Since I have been in this role, I have been as open and as transparent as I could possibly be. I answered questions at committee. I made sure that we opened up the process so that all the questions could be asked, so that all the documents that were asked for could be provided. That has happened. We have heard many perspectives at committee. I believe that it was important for me to take personal responsibility, and I have done that.

I really believe the committee can continue to ask questions and continue to do its due diligence. But I have taken responsibility now to put in place a process that will ensure that this will not happen again.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Premier, it would have been a lot better for Ontarians if you did something about this scandal back in 2011, when you first saw the documents in cabinet. You knew this was a bad deal back then, and you—you—could have stopped this from ever happening.

But your late apology comes with consequences. If you’re really sincere, you would arrange for the Liberal Party to pay back the money. If you’re really sorry, you would order your Liberal witnesses to return to committee and tell the truth this time, and you would stand here and answer the pivotal question in this scandal: When did you know the costs were more than you publicly stated? If you are not prepared to, Premier, then call our confidence motion and let this House decide if your apology was sincere.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Interjection.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Speaker, I’m glad the member opposite—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. The member from Cambridge will come to order.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I apologize, Mr. Speaker.

I’m glad the member mentioned confidence, because it is important now, I believe, that we have this discussion about the budget. The budget is the confidence issue that is before this House that will have a direct impact on the lives of people in Ontario.

I have visited a couple of manufacturing companies in the last couple of days, and they are very happy with the measures that we have in the budget that will support their purchase of new equipment and new technology, and will support young people getting the skills training they need in order to be able to work in their businesses. That’s the kind of measure that needs to be in place. That’s why we need the budget to pass. I look forward to a debate on the budget and getting the budget passed.

POWER PLANTS

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My question is, as well, for the Premier. For a number of months in this House and in the committee room, we asked you to apologize to the people of Ontario. Only last night, when you decided to seek absolution from a taxpayer-funded journalist, did you offer that.

Did your apology for the Liberal seat-saving plan that cost Ontario families hundreds of millions of dollars for thwarting democracy include saying sorry for co-chairing the Liberal campaign team that made the crass political decision to cost taxpayer dollars? Did it include you signing a memorandum to cabinet that you either did not understand or chose to withhold from the public? Are you sorry for not telling Ontarians that you knew the true costs were higher than $40 million? Are you sorry that you are hiding from calling the PC confidence motion? Or was your Steve Paikin climbdown a PR stunt?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’ve answered a lot of the issues that the member opposite raised. I went to committee; I answered all the questions that were asked of me.

Again, the member opposite—her voice is one of the voices that have been calling for a taking of personal responsibility, and I did that last night, Mr. Speaker. I made it clear that I take personal responsibility; that I’m sorry about the mistakes that our government made. We have said that there were mistakes made. We have said that the process was not what it should have been, and that those gas plants should not have been located where they were in the first place. We need a process going forward that will make sure that doesn’t happen again. That is what I apologized for last night.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: This has been an interesting PR exercise. But Speaker, you are well aware that my colleagues and I have asked 130 times what this Premier knew, when she knew it, when that cost ballooned well past $40 million, and she has refused over 130 times to offer that.

So excuse us, on this side of the House, for expecting your staged apology last night with a taxpayer-funded journalist to be nothing more than a PR stunt.

Speaker, we on this side of the House suspect that that Premier—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Finish, please.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I think I touched a nerve, Speaker.

I suspect she refuses to acknowledge what she knew and when she knew it because she will be held in contempt of Parliament if she—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Question.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Isn’t it true, Premier, that you’re only sorry right now so you can take attention away from this scandal?

Premier, if you were truly sorry for scamming Ontarians out of hundreds of millions of dollars—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Order. Be seated, please.

While the clock is stopped, I would remind this member and all members that when I stand, you sit. If you don’t look at me, that’s not my responsibility.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member, come to order.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I just want to make a commentary on the political environment that we operate in. I understand why the member opposite would talk about PR, but I honestly believe that the frame that she is putting around what I said last night actually says more about her than it does about me.

I’m a human being doing this job, and I have to do this job in the best way that I can. I have done everything I could to open up this process. I continue to get calls from people of Ontario who said, “You know, we want to see that personal responsibility taken.” That’s what I did last night. It had nothing to do with public relations; it had nothing to do with a political stunt. It had to do with me taking personal responsibility, and whether the members opposite believe that or not is really immaterial, Mr. Speaker. I did what I knew I needed to do.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Of course she knew what she needed to do. She needed to say she was sorry to the public because her PR stunt is the only thing that’s going to move her past this and divert attention from the matter at hand, which is, she has come to this House repeatedly and said that this cost $40 million when she knew for a very long period of time it wasn’t. She came to committee and evaded 11 questions from me at that moment and another 29 from my colleague from Nipissing.

I will say this, Speaker: This is a Premier who has spent hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money in order to save Liberal MPPs’ seats. She decided to go to a taxpayer-funded journalist last night with a script to stage a PR campaign so she could distract the public from telling the truth. If her saying “sorry” really means that what she did was wrong, she would know that she needs to call the Ontario PC contempt motion to the floor of this House—not only for debate, but for a vote—and further, that she should bring a judicial inquiry—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, I think we should come to the defense of Steve Paikin, over here, and of TVOntario. I think TVOntario is a terrific institution.

But quite apart from that, let me talk about the confidence motion—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Let me just talk about the confidence motion that is before us, because clearly the members opposite want to have the opportunity to vote on a confidence motion. The budget is the confidence motion that I believe is extremely relevant to the lives of people in Ontario. There are measures in the budget that will create jobs in this province and that will deal with issues that will affect people in their day-to-day lives. I look forward to that debate.

I look forward to seeing that budget passed, because I believe that we need to get on with the business of, just what I said, creating jobs and making changes that will affect people’s day-to-day lives. That’s what our confidence motion is about.

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. As the Premier knows, we’ll be sitting down this afternoon, and I’ve been clear with the public that this is a—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. Order, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Well, I’m waiting for two parties to tone it down.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m not asking for extra comments.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Thanks, Speaker. Gee, that was an unexpected bit of excitement there for a minute.

Nonetheless, I’ve been clear with the public that it’s going to be an open and transparent process that we engage in, so I’m going to ask this question in public: Is the Premier ready to move forward with measures that are going to make this government more transparent and more accountable?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We will have a good conversation this afternoon. Terms of endearment take different forms.

I look forward to sitting down with the leader of the third party and having a conversation about the suggestions that she has made. I will just say that I’m not going to comment on the specifics, because that’s why, I think, we need to have a face-to-face meeting, but I believe that finding ways for government to be more accountable and making sure that we do everything we can to be accountable—that, absolutely, is what I would like to talk with the leader of the third party about.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I’m pleased to hear that, because Ontarians are the people who actually want to be hopeful in this process. They want to see real change that makes the government more transparent and more accountable to them. After all, the government is here for them, not the other way around.

Yesterday, the Premier finally apologized for the gas plant scandal, but it is a day late and a buck short. The money has already been wasted, and the scandal has already happened. Now we need to make sure that it never happens again. I hope we all agree in this chamber that Ontarians deserve better.

Will the Premier agree that her government needs to be more accountable and transparent, and that New Democrats are proposing effective ways of doing just that?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I look forward to that meeting that we’re going to have this afternoon, and I think that accountability is an evolving reality. We have, in fact, as a government, put in a number of accountability measures that I think were necessary. In 2010, the Broader Public Sector Accountability Act put new rules and higher standards in place in terms of lobbyists. We put those rules in place. When we were newly elected in 2004, the Fiscal Transparency and Accountability Act put in place a framework for the conduct of fiscal policy.

We have put those measures in place, but there is always more that a government can do to explore where accountability gaps exist. I know that that will be part of our conversation this afternoon.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Families want to have confidence in the future. They don’t want to be waiting for the next scandal and then waiting for the next apology. A financial accountability office will give families assurance that their money won’t be wasted. Ontarians want to see transparency and accountability. Will the Premier agree that creating a financial accountability office is actually the right thing to do?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I would say to the leader of the third party: Let’s talk about that this afternoon. Let’s talk about what some of the specifics of her suggestions are so that I can understand better where she’s coming from and whether the suggestions are prudent and whether they can actually be implemented.

We need to have that face-to-face meeting. I’m glad we’re finally able to have it, Mr. Speaker, because I do believe people want to see government working. They want to see the parties in this Legislature working together. I have heard that over and over again: that people want to see us realize and understand that we’re in a minority Parliament and that it is our responsibility to work together. I appreciate the willingness of the leader of the third party to now sit down and have this conversation.

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. Ontarians have told us over the last week or so that they wanted to see fairness, balance and transparency. They want to have faith in a health care system, making sure it will be there for them when they need it and for their loved ones as well. But they’ve seen a system instead that’s rocked by scandals and waste and haven’t had anyone to turn to in that process. They want to know that someone will always be in their corner, someone who’s independent and who will stick up for them—someone exactly like the Ombudsman.

Will the Premier make the health care system more accountable and allow the Ombudsman to have oversight in our health care system?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Again, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to having that conversation this afternoon with the leader of the third party, because it’s one of the suggestions she has made. But I would just say that there are a number of accountability mechanisms that already exist within government, and one of the things I’d like to talk with the leader of the third party about is how we might be able to tighten up or improve accountability mechanisms that already exist, because they’re there and I think we need to come to some kind of agreement on whether they can be improved or not.

That’s one of the things I would like to put on the table as we have our conversation this afternoon because I do believe, as I said earlier, that there is always room for improvement.

Let’s look at what’s already there, let’s see if those things can be improved because I, like the leader of the third party, believe that accountability is an expectation of the people of Ontario, and we need to do everything we can to be accountable for our actions.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, I have three things to say to the Premier’s comment about the accountability of the Liberal government thus far in Ontario: eHealth, Ornge and the gas plants scandal. People are tired of that. Ontarians told us for the last week and a bit that they are tired of not being able to trust that their government is going to use their money wisely and prudently and for their needs instead of the government’s needs or the Liberal Party’s needs.

They told us they want to see some fairness in this budget as well. They see a government handing a brand new $1.3-billion tax loophole to corporations while Ontarians are told that they’re going have to have to belly up $300 million on a bill to start tolling our carpool lanes. Does the Premier think that’s a fair solution to fund transit and transportation infrastructure?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: As the leader of the third party knows, the Minister of Finance is in communication with the federal Minister of Finance on the issue around the corporate tax regime. We understand that that’s something we need to work on. But we have to work on it with the federal government.

That’s one of the things that I want to talk to the leader of the third party about. What is doable? What exactly is doable in terms of the provincial government’s jurisdiction and the possibilities that we have to make changes? Because I can’t make a commitment, Mr. Speaker, either in public or in private, to do something that we don’t have jurisdiction over. What we commit to has to be doable and prudent, which is why, in our budget, we have tackled some of the issues she raised in terms of auto insurance and home care accountability. We have tackled those things in a way that’s prudent and that we can actually deliver on.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I hope there are some negotiations happening with the federal government because it wasn’t in the budget to get rid of that $1.3-billion upcoming corporate tax loophole. There was a last-minute letter sent by the finance minister to the federal finance minister. That’s not good enough for Ontarians; it doesn’t show a real commitment.

New Democrats asked Ontarians what they thought of the budget. What they told us is that it can stand to be improved, particularly on accountability measures. They’re tired of broken promises. They’re tired of wasted money.

Is the Premier going to listen to Ontarians and add much-needed accountability and transparency to this budget?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I look forward to our conversation this afternoon.

I have been listening to the people of Ontario and will continue to do that because I really believe that that is how good policy gets made. I think it’s very important that politicians—all of us—listen to the people in our ridings and listen to the people across the province about their concerns.

That’s what our budget reflects. There has been a lot of talk about where the ideas for the budget came from. They came from the concerns of the people of the province. Those concerns are about jobs, making sure that people’s children have jobs and that people themselves can find their way into the economy. Those concerns are about their everyday lives, making sure that the issues that affect them on a day-to-day basis, like the provision of health care for their parents and grandparents—for our parents and grandparents—making sure that people get the home care, the health care that they need in a timely way.

Those are the things people talk to us about. There was common ground with the third party, and there was common ground, I believe, with the official opposition. That’s why I hope we can get this budget passed and we can start to implement those measures.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. John O’Toole: My question is to the Premier. The gas plant fiasco is the biggest scandal in Ontario’s history. You’ve tried the denial game. You’ve tried the cover-up game. You’ve tried the blame game, and now you—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Put your question, please.

Mr. John O’Toole: You’ve tried the blame game, you’ve tried the cover-up game, you’ve tried the apology game; I’m asking you to show some integrity and do the honourable thing—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. There was a word used there that is unparliamentary, and I ask you to withdraw.

Mr. John O’Toole: I withdraw that single word.

I’m asking you to do the honourable thing. Look straight in the camera, Premier, and tell the people of Ontario either yes, the scandal deserves a vote, for you to hold a confidence vote in this House, or no, “I refuse to let the people of Ontario hold the Liberal government accountable.”

Premier, please tell the people of Ontario—it’s a very simple question—yes or no.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: I want to assure the member, and indeed all members of this House—I can guarantee it—in the next several weeks, there will be a confidence motion in this House. We will be bringing forward the budget motion, which is a matter of confidence, and members will have a chance to both debate and vote on it.

But, Mr. Speaker, to the first part of the honourable member’s question, I go back to some of the comments I made yesterday. Could he explain to us why—when the Liberal Party decided in the last election to promise the cancellation of the gas plants, according to them it was the worst thing to have ever befallen western civilization, but when the Leader of the Opposition made the exact same promise, it was somehow okay. Why, when the Leader of the Opposition appeared in front of committee yesterday, would he not even deign to explain the difference between the two positions?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John O’Toole: Back to the Premier: In your speech from the throne, you talked about “Your government, and your cabinet ministers, will be accountable to all the people of Ontario....” It boggles my mind that any member of this House could prop up this scandal-plagued government in good conscience.

Premier, once again, I ask you, will you call on this assembly to debate our want of confidence motion so that, once and for all, we can deal with this issue and truly restore accountability in Ontario? Will do you that, Premier?

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, he wants to talk about accountability. Let’s review that facts: When the new Premier came into office, one of her first actions was to ask the Auditor General to look into the Oakville situation. The second thing she did was, she proposed a special committee of the Legislature to look into it. That party said no because they wanted to have a witch hunt over a former member of the Legislature. She produced 56,000 pages of documents and offered to have a wide search throughout government for more documents, and that party and the NDP voted against it.

She appeared in front of committee when asked and answered all the questions. We saw the Leader of the Opposition had to practically be dragged there, invited over and over again and refused to answer any questions—28 times. We asked him simple questions and he would not come forward with any answers.

When it comes to transparency, this side of the House—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

TRANSPORTATION

Mr. Rosario Marchese: My question is to the Premier. The government is refusing to share basic information with Ontarians about its scheme to toll highways. The Minister of Finance says tolls will generate $250 million to $300 million while Metrolinx says it will generate $25 million, and the Minister of Transportation won’t tell us anything. No one in government will say how much it will cost to build the lanes, where the lanes will be, what the toll will cost or whether this expensive scheme will actually break even. Why won’t your government be open about the basic elements of this risky and costly tolling scheme?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I really do believe my friend is asking questions with the best of intentions, but I would like to direct him to the Metrolinx website; on that website, you can actually see the entire costs. Metrolinx has carefully planned out which routes are optimal. Metrolinx can actually tell you that the price per kilometre is 47 cents.

You could also read today’s Toronto Star, which points out the very successful HOT lanes across North America are used mostly by people with under $60,000 income, that it’s been a benefit to middle-income families, especially moms who are trying to get their kids to school. It’s a very cost-effective option, and it’s had a significant impact on reducing congestion.

This is hardly something used by only affluent people, and it has not compromised the role of HOV lanes one iota, and those are the facts.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: The experience of tolling high-occupancy lanes in other places is that the cost of construction and enforcement is high while the revenues generated are low. In many areas, these lanes have lost money or have struggled to break even—I think the minister knows that. Just last month, we learned that the new HOT lanes in Los Angeles had actually increased overall congestion. I also think the minister knows that as well.

Why is the government committing to an expensive and risky scheme that is not a serious revenue tool for transit without providing any reason at all to think that it will work?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Mr. Speaker, we have, right now, well into construction the biggest transportation/transit build-out in the history of Ontario. Soon, the boring machines on Eglinton will be pulled out and people all across north and central Toronto will be able to whisk across the city efficiently in some of the most beautiful LRTs and subways ever.

In Durham region, just the other day, Mr. Anderson and I launched the Durham BRT system from Oshawa to the Scarborough campus of U of T. For now, people all across the eastern GTA and Ajax and Pickering can now get their kids to school. We have two-way, all-day GO service every half-hour on the Lakeshore line, ending the bedroom communities and ending the suburbs being a—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I hope he can get excited—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

BREAST CANCER

Mrs. Laura Albanese: My question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Regular mammograms are the best way to detect breast cancer. Yesterday, I heard in the news that a study by Cancer Care Ontario researchers found that one type of digital mammography, called digital computed radiography, is less effective than other types of mammograms.

As a woman, I’m concerned about these findings. Women across Ontario should be able to rely on the most effective technology to detect breast cancer. Could the minister tell us how the situation is being addressed?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I would like to thank the member from York South–Weston for this question. Breast cancer is a disease that affects too many of us, too many of our mothers, our sisters, our daughters and our friends. Those women deserve nothing but the best possible care.

The decisions we make in health care are guided by the best available evidence. Scientific evidence is always emerging that guides our decisions about what we need to do to improve our medical practices.

There is new evidence, recommendations by cancer experts, so we are updating the technology we use for breast cancer screening. We’re investing $25 million to replace computed radiography devices with direct radiography devices across the province. This will ensure that women will continue to get the most effective screening for breast cancer using the best technology available.

I want to say thank you to the researcher, Dr. Anna Chiarelli at Cancer Care Ontario, who conducted this groundbreaking study. It will help us provide better care for women.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Laura Albanese: This issue needs to be taken seriously and addressed with strong action, as the minister is doing. Breast cancer is a deadly disease, and early detection is key. If a woman learns she has breast cancer, she needs to be reassured that the health care system will be there with her in her fight against cancer every step of the way.

Through you, Mr. Speaker, to the minister: Can women across Ontario who suffer from breast cancer be sure that they will get the best-quality care?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I share the member’s commitment to ensuring that women with breast cancer are given the support they need to beat this disease. Ontario is a leader in cancer care; 88% of women who are diagnosed with breast cancer in Ontario are alive and well five years later, and an Ontarian who gets cancer has one of the best chances of survival anywhere in the world, according to the Cancer System Quality Index.

This is a result of our government’s commitment to cancer care. We have tripled funding for cancer-fighting drugs under the new drug funding program. We are funding 49 additional drugs for 74 indications. We have cut wait times for cancer surgery, and last year, 97% of Ontario’s cancer patients started radiation within the four-week national target.

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Mr. Ted Arnott: My question is for the Premier. This afternoon, the House will debate and vote upon our opposition day motion, which, if passed, and if the government respects the will of the House, would require the government House leader to call our non-confidence motion for debate and a vote on May 28.

An affirmative vote by the House today should compel the government to abide by hundreds of years of parliamentary tradition and explicitly and directly test the confidence that this House has in the government.

If our motion passes this afternoon, can the Premier commit to respecting the will of this House?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: I have a couple of points. The first is, I want to confirm to the member, as I did to his colleague, that this Legislature will be dealing with a confidence motion in the next several weeks when we deal with the budget motion, and, God willing, we’ll also be dealing with the budget bill at various stages, and that too will be a confidence motion. So he should not be worried; there will be plenty of confidence motions.

In terms of the process that we have here in the Legislature, I thought the member should be very, very aware that

section 44 of the standing orders outlines the process by which the motion that he is referring to can be brought forward. That’s not based on hundreds of years of parliamentary tradition; that’s actually a change to the standing orders that was brought in by the Progressive Conservatives when they were in power.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Arnott: Back to the Premier: The government cannot evade responsibility on this. Either they respect the will of the House or they don’t. There can be no weasel words; there is no middle ground. This is the Parliament of Ontario.

Thirteen days have passed since the budget speech and we’re still waiting for the NDP to make up their minds. They may very well sit on their hands again and allow the budget to pass, as they did last year, but a budget motion is a confidence motion only as it pertains to the budgetary policy of the government, not confidence in an overall, comprehensive sense. If our motion passes today the government cannot ignore the will of the House and still claim legitimacy to govern if the confidence question is still outstanding. Will the Premier do the right thing if our motion passes this afternoon and call our non-confidence motion for debate and a vote on May 28?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I’m kind of enjoying this debate over parliamentary procedure here. The simple fact of the matter is that a government that can’t pass its budget cannot govern, so therefore it is naturally a confidence motion. Again, I assure the member that we will have a vote on that motion within the prescribed period that’s outlined in the standing orders. As I say, if everything goes the right way, we hope to have subsequent votes on the legislation that accompanies it.

In terms of the want of confidence issue that he has put forward, again, I encourage the member to look at

section 44 of the standing orders, which outlines the process by which it could be brought forward to the Legislature. As I say, they are not our rules; they are rules that were brought forward by the Progressive Conservatives when they were in power.

CASINOS

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is to the Premier. It is absolutely clear that this government’s OLG privatization plan is in chaos. Ontarians want to know, is Toronto getting a special deal to host a downtown casino or isn’t it? This government doesn’t seem to know. Ontarians want to know, are OLG casinos going to be turned over to global gambling operators? This government doesn’t seem to know. Will this government admit that its OLG privatization strategy is a total mess and scrap this misguided plan once and for all?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: I appreciate the question. The member opposite has reaffirmed the need to transform the way we do business with the OLG, recognizing the tremendous amount of contributions it brings to produce and initiate more schools and hospitals, and to enable us to afford social programs. We need to ensure that the operation of the OLG is managed in an appropriate fashion to maximize the value to the taxpayers. That’s exactly what we’re doing.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: This time to the minister, I guess: The OLG and the government’s own hand-picked CEO invited global gambling operators to bid on a downtown Toronto casino and floated the idea of a sweetheart deal on the hosting formula to city council to cement that deal. These companies in turn made it clear that if they weren’t going to get a downtown site and own the operation, they weren’t coming to Ontario. The question: With a crucial vote coming up at Toronto city council next week, will the government finally come clean on its plans for a downtown Toronto casino and let the people and the council know in advance?

Hon. Charles Sousa: The council have before them an opportunity to make a decision; and it’s up to the council, it’s up to the municipality to make that decision. The province has made it clear that we won’t provide any special deals to any specific municipality. We’re going to be equal, we’re going to be fair; it’s going to be the same formula across the province. The council has before them an option and a determination if they want a proponent to bring in billions of dollars in new construction to the city of Toronto; that will be up to them. In terms of the formula, it will be determined, it will be the same, it will be equal for the entire province.

ELECTRONIC COMMERCE

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: My question is to the Attorney General. As we all know, in this age of technology electronic tools create efficiencies and contribute to economic growth. Over the past few years, Peel realtors and the directors of the Mississauga and Brampton real estate boards requested that the government use electronic tools for their business transactions. As part of the 2013 budget, our government has proposed an amendment to the Electronic Commerce Act, extending the act to land transactions.

Mr. Speaker, could the AG elaborate on the proposed amendment and how it would benefit Ontario businesses?

Hon. John Gerretsen: I want to thank the hard-working member from Mississauga–Brampton South for the question. She has really been a hard-working member here.

Speaker, I can tell you that the government supports the use of electronic communications as broadly as possible, for reasons of both efficiency and economy. That’s why we’ve introduced the legislation as part of the 2013 budget bill. I know the member from Prince Edward–Hastings is interested in it as well, and he will vote for the budget bill; I’m absolutely convinced.

We want to extend that in the Electronic Commerce Act to land transactions as well. We believe that these land transactions would, if the legislation is passed, benefit from the standards and rules for electronic communications that have worked so well over the last dozen years or so in so many other areas. It will benefit businesses as well as consumers in Ontario and, in particular, those involved in the real estate industry. That’s because we know that the real estate industry in Ontario has been requesting this change for some time. It’s time to do it by passing the budget.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: I thank the Attorney General for elaborating on the proposed amendment. It’s good news, not only for Ontario realtors but also for the consumers. This amendment will allow use of electronic tools to conduct business efficiently and conveniently.

Mr. Speaker, through you to the Attorney General: Are there any other ways in which this government is helping our real estate sector in the province of Ontario?

Hon. John Gerretsen: I know the Minister of Consumer Services looks forward to answering this part of the question.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I’m very happy to inform the member that we do, in fact, have legislation in front of the House right now that aims to do just what she’s asking. Just like the budget we’ve tabled, there is another bill, called Bill 55, to help people in their everyday lives. It’s called the Stronger Protection for Ontario Consumers Act. Bill 55 proposes to make changes to the real estate sector to promote a more fair and transparent marketplace.

Under this proposed bill, we will make it easier for buyers and professionals to verify that the actual number of written offers were made in a competitive real estate bidding process, as well as allow real estate professionals greater options and flexibility in delivering the services they offer.

Bill 55 and the amendments proposed in the budget relating to electronic signatures that the Attorney General referred to are the type of legislation that helps Ontarians. I strongly encourage all members of the Legislature to support both—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD

OF ONTARIO

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: My question is to the Premier. In just a few days, Ontarians will get together with friends and family and fire up the barbecue and open the cottage on the Victoria Day long weekend. As well, many tourists will be travelling to Ontario to visit over 1,500 special events across the province and enjoy the best that this province has to offer. This includes Ontario’s wonderful wine, beer and spirits.

However, a dark cloud looms, threatening to put a damper on all this: an impending LCBO strike. The union has engaged in an aggressive ad campaign demanding more for their workers.

Premier, with LCBO stores all carrying Ontario beer, wine and spirits, how in good conscience can this government let an impending strike occur, imperiling Ontario’s tourism and beverage industry on one of Ontario’s favourite holidays? How can you do that?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: We have a situation where the LCBO and the employees are negotiating a collective agreement, and it’s appropriate and prudent for them to initiate and have those discussions. We’ll allow them to proceed. I’m hopeful that, in the end, they’ll come to an agreement and that we’re all going to be able to enjoy a great long weekend.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: Given your and your government’s record of buying public sector union support with massive wage increases and perks at the expense of Ontario’s fiscal future, is it no wonder we are yet again held hostage at the eleventh hour by a union demanding more? This is something you brought upon yourself, Premier.

Public sector compensation is out of control, and Ontario’s broken arbitration system is putting Ontario taxpayers at further risk. While your government’s budgets have earned us nothing but credit downgrades, our PC plan for sustainable public sector compensation is clearly the only way forward.

Will the Premier side with Ontarians for their Victoria Day weekend and their future by preventing a strike and freezing public sector compensation by legislation for a two-year period?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Minister of Labour.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I thank the member for the question. I think the member opposite very well knows how our labour relations system works in this province. It is the responsibility of the employer and the trade union to be able to come together to negotiate a settlement agreement.

We also know that the best agreements are the ones which are negotiated, that are bargained around the table, and we encourage both parties—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): This is not helpful—both sides, including the third party.

Answer, please?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, we encourage both parties to continue to work hard. I know they are negotiating. The government is focused on assisting the parties in reaching a settlement. I am very happy to report that our highly skilled mediators from the Ministry of Labour have met the parties on 19 different occasions to help them come to a settlement, and I am hopeful and confident that a settlement will be reached between the LCBO and the union.

MINING INDUSTRY

Ms. Sarah Campbell: To the Premier: Northwestern Ontario is struggling economically. For years, we have been looking to this government to support job growth and economic development. One project that could have a major impact, resulting in the investment of $700 million and 500 permanent, full-time jobs, is the Rainy River Gold Project. But far from supporting this investment, this government is needlessly delaying it by being almost two months late with approving the terms of reference.

Why is this government not doing everything in its power to promote job growth in northwestern Ontario?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Northern Development and Mines.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Mr. Speaker, we are very proud of the great record that we have in terms of the northern Ontario growth plan, let alone the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund, where we have provided, over the last 10 years, $824 million in investments toward creating or retaining 22,000 jobs in northern Ontario.

I can tell you, we’re obviously very excited about the opportunities returning to the forestry sector, as we see a transforming of that sector.

We’re looking to the opportunities in the mining sector—not just simply the Ring of Fire, as exciting as that is, but also the other developments—and working closely with all industry to make that happen.

Certainly, this continues to be a priority for us. Last week, we were pleased to be at FONOM, the Federation of Northern Ontario Municipalities, to speak about how keen we are to continue to move forward with our economic vision for northern Ontario.

I look forward to your supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Sarah Campbell: Back to the Premier: This is about the Rainy River Gold Project. This company has done everything right. It has engaged with First Nations and communities from the start. This delay in approving the terms of reference is in part ministry incompetence and partly the result of this Liberal government’s cuts to the Ministry of the Environment, a ministry whose budget has fallen by 45% in real terms since the 1990s and, according to the Environmental Commissioner of Ontario, that lacks the basic resources to do its job.

If this government is serious about job growth and job creation, it needs to ensure that the government resources are in place to foster that growth. This is not happening.

This company needs its terms of reference approved by May 17. When will the minister finally sign off so that these badly needed and wanted jobs can move ahead?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Minister of the Environment.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Speaker, the member may wish to consult with her environmental critic, the member for Davenport, and perhaps with the member for Toronto–Danforth on the importance of giving a full assessment of all of the environmental implications of any of these developments. I know the member is eager to see it moving forward, but her party surely would want to make sure that all of the environmental considerations have been given.

I have given this, personally, very high attention as well, and I am one who is always optimistic, I must say.

I do think that it’s important for the New Democratic Party to, as it once was, be very concerned about the environmental implications of any development that happens to take place anywhere in this province.

We will have that opportunity to give a full evaluation of it in appropriate time. I am sure that the necessary approvals—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member for Timmins–James Bay, come to order. Thank you.

New question.

AGRI-FOOD INDUSTRY

Mr. Joe Dickson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew knows what I’m going to say.

Mr. Joe Dickson: My question is for the Premier in her capacity as the Minister of Agriculture and Food. The agri-food industry is one of the largest industries in Ontario. Not only does it employ over 700,000 people but it provides $34 billion to our GDP. The agri-food industry is composed, in large part, of farmers, the men and women who till the fields, plant the crops and feed Ontarians. Another component important to the agri-food industry, and that should be recognized on this, is the food processing sector. The success of the productivity of food processing is vital.

Speaker, can the minister please tell us what our recent budget will do to increase productivity in the food processing industry?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you to the member from Ajax–Pickering for the question. He accurately portrays, Mr. Speaker, the importance of the food processing industry to Ontario. I think it’s not well understood generally that this is a $34-billion industry, the agri-food industry. It’s a major economic driver creating jobs, improving the economy and supporting our producers.

We believe it’s important to support and to contribute to our food processing industry, which is why in the 2013 budget, which we would love to see passed, we included the proposal to extend the capital cost allowance for manufacturing and for processing machinery and equipment. This will have a direct impact on the food processing industry. This measure will reduce the Ontario tax on manufacturing and processing equipment by $265 million over the course of the next two fiscal years, and that will support our effort to increase productivity.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Joe Dickson: Thank you, Premier. The men and women who work in the food processing sector will be happy to hear that this continues to support everyone in the agri-food industry. In my riding of Ajax–Pickering there will be a number of food processors that can benefit from the extension of the capital cost allowance.

These same food processors have addressed a concern for red tape. While ensuring that food safety and quality is maintained, duplication in the process can stand in the way of the success of these Ontario companies. Can the Premier, the Minister of Agriculture and Food, please update the House on what our government is intending to do to reduce red tape that exists in this industry?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I have heard this concern from producers and processors when it comes to unnecessary red tape or regulation; that’s exactly why the Open for Business round table was created. The round table asks for input from producers and processors on how we can work together to find more ways to clear the path for business success.

The round table actually met last week to discuss the priorities of the sector; both processors and producers were at the table. There were a number of other ministries; it is important for other ministries to hear the concerns of the agri-food business. It was a productive conversation; I was very pleased to be part of that conversation.

It’s important that we continue to work together, because that’s where the solutions are found. When we check in with each other, we find out what’s actually happening on the ground so that we can foster the innovation and productivity that’s needed in the sector.

SCHOOL TRANSPORTATION

Mr. Jeff Yurek: My question is to the Minister of Education. Minister, I want to tell you about a young girl in my riding named Hope Hawkins who is hearing-impaired. Hope will be entering grade 8 next year, which is the crucial year of development as one transitions into high school. Unfortunately, she’ll be the only grade 8 student in her class at Robarts School for the Deaf in London, due to a declining enrolment. Hope has recently been accepted to the Ernest Drury School for the Deaf in Milton. She wants to attend the school for grade 8 before entering high school, but she has been denied transportation services because she lives three minutes outside the ministry’s 70-minute threshold.

It’s already been agreed that Hope will receive transportation when she starts grade 9. A public school is not a good option for Hope; EAs and support workers must be hired, special equipment must be provided and it’s an environment full of stigma. Hope has attempted this route three times before and the educational experience she received has not been ideal.

Minister, could you direct the provincial superintendent to approve Hope’s request to receive the transportation services in the upcoming year?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Thank you very much. Obviously, I’m not familiar with this particular issue. It always is difficult when a student needs to be transported to one of the provincial schools, and trying to make those arrangements.

I think that perhaps in this instance, it would be best if we could get some more information about the particular case, and then we’ll endeavour to see if we can find a resolution.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jeff Yurek: [ Inaudible ] receive more information. She’s hit so many roadblocks just trying to get to a school where she can be with her peers.

Minister, I meet with many constituents who deal with the black-and-white nature of some of this government’s rules and regulations. We need to understand the need for rules and guidelines, but the inflexibility in a situation like this bespeaks to a failure of the delivery of essential services. This situation takes nothing more than a little common sense, and I hope to get it resolved. I hope that we cannot be beholden to the bureaucratic rules, and do the right thing in this situation. Can you let me know soon whether Hope will receive the transportation services to attend school next year?

Hon. Liz Sandals: If we could get the information fairly quickly and get some contact information for the individual student—because we obviously will need to talk to the individual families involved to get the accurate information—then I will certainly be very happy to have my ministry look at the situation very quickly.

HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. It would seem that it’s almost a regular occurrence now that we have to ask you questions or we have to have meetings with you to talk about the failure of the privatized system of maintaining our highways across Ontario.

Last week it was the city of Timmins and area that lost access to highways because of a snowfall that is quite normal for the month of May—no snow plows to be dispatched.

Now we had a three-day closure of Highway 101 as a result of MTO not doing what it has to do to inform the contractor on what t