VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 17, 1982 NO. 24

!'l June 17, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russ~ll) : \ Tape 1402 NM - l Order, please: It is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries today Mr. Joceyln Beaudoin, the Executive Director of the Council for Canadian Unity, and Mr. Bruce Butler, Provincial President for Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before we begin today's proceedings it is always a pleasure indeed for me to welcome visitors to our galleries.

Today ?~rhaos it is a special pleasure in that on behalf of all hon. members I would like to welcome to the galleries Colonel and Mrs. Gordon Fullerton, and Colonel and Mrs. Jack Lousma. As we are all aware of the significance of the space shuttle Columbia flight, we are indeed delighted that these peopl~ took some time from their busy

schedule to visit our Province and visit our Legislature, and on behalf of all the hon. members I welcome you to our Province, and to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: The hon. Minister of Culture, Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure at this time to inform the House that my department, the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, through its Youth Services Division, will this year assist 142 students from Newfoundland and Labrador to participate in the new Terry Fox Canadian Youth Centre Programme which is sponsored by the Council for Canadian Unity. And I am pleased to add my own welcome to the Council's Executive Director who is here in the gallery today, Mr. Beaudoin. 2966

June 17, 1982 Tape 1402 Nl1 - 2 MR. SIMMS: Due to Canada 's special character istics of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity it is an un ­ fortunate fact that the majority of young Canadians grow up in comparative isolation with little knowledge of the rest of their country . Through the Terry Fox Canadian Youth Centre , 3,200 young people from all regions of Canada, holdin g differing attitudes and prospectives, will come together each year in the Nation's captial to share ideas and participate in a Canadian studies programme.

These sixteen and seventeen year old students in groups of 136 will gather for one week at a time in the Residential Conference Centre. Information regarding this programme has already been circulated to the high schools of the Province and a volunteer provincial advisory board of which Hr. Bruce Butler is Chairman, and I welcome him as well today , has been put in place to promote the project to select parti cipants and to enlist financial contributions from the schools and community service orqanizations.

Through its Youth Services Division my department will promote the Terry Fox Canadian Youth Centre, utilizing its eleven field offices which are strategically located throughout the Province, maintain a liaison with the volunteer provincial advisory board throuqh 2967

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1403 ah-1 MR.SIMM: its travel co-ordinator and provide $100 per student to enable 142 young Newfoundlanders from all regions of the Province to participate in the programme as per the request of the Council for Canadian unity. This programme is intended to benefit not only those who participate in it, Mr.Speaker, but also people with whom the participants meet and share their experiences and new ideas. It is hoped that the young people of this Province will develop a greater national awareness and that local communi ties and schools "l'ill be directly influenced by this programme.

MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Eagle River. SOME HON.MEHBEP.S: !lear, hear! MR.HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. It is a pleasure to be able to get up and respond to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth(Hr. Simms) on this matter. It is also an honour to know that the parents of the late Terry Fox will be coming to this Province and this city. I do not always agree with the editorials in the Evening Telegram but I do on this occasion where they suggested that we probably could rename the new hig:1way, the Southside Arterial Road in honour of Terry Fox.

Of course this is the zero mile where he started and the road has not been named,and I would hope that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) as well as the Premier of this Province would make recommendations to the city. With regard to the Youth Service Division being involved in the Terry Fox Canadian Youth Centre,I noticed here that it is $100 per student and I am sure that this will help a lot in transportation of our students and Canadians unity but still we need more programmes like this,not to be started on a national basis but for ourselves, transporting students to other ~arts of 2966

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1403 ah-2 l1R .HISCOCK : Canada ana to other parts of our own Provi nce and thereby building up a stronger sense of Canadian unity in this Province . So, Mr . Speaker, in supporting this,this side is more than pleased- being an Island, the main ~art of this Province, and Labrad~r-any time we have the O?~ortunity to send out our students to other parts of Canada to learn about other cultures and other ways of life and to find out things about this great country. It is a pleasure for thi s side to support it . Thank you, Mr .Speaker .

MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : r would also like to welcome to the galleries today the mayor of Shoal Harbour, Mayor Barris Thistle, Mrs .Thistle ,the town clerk,and Mr . t~osewort hy , a councillor on that par ticular Munici?al council. SOME HON . ME~fBERS : Statements? MR . SPEAKER: MR .NEARY : Hear, hear ! Are there a.ny other Minis terial ORAL QUESTIONS The hon . Leader of the Opposition . Mr . Speaker, first of all I might say that the astronauts will feel right at home here in the House today because the administration across the way have not had their feet on the ground since April 6th .

They are still fl yin g through - SOME HON .M EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR .NEARY : space. I am sure the a~tronau ts '<new "1here Newfoundlund was 286q

Q_ June 17, 1982 Tape 1404 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: before they carne here, because they felt the vibes from Confederation Building as they were flying over Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor). It has to do with Baie Verte, Transoacific Asbestos in Baie Verte. Would the hon. gentleman tell the House what repercussions, if any, he expects from the union's refusal to go along with the proposal that was put to them in connection with their new working agreement?

Does this mean that Transpacific Asbestos proposal is now doomed for Baie Verte or are negotiations continuing? Just what is the situation concerning the reactivation of the abestos mine in Baie Verte? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development . Mr. Speaker, let me say first of all that we were quite concerned yesterday when we heard of the decision of the union and the reaction to the proposal that had been put forward to them by Transpacific abestos.

As hon. members know, government and Trans?acific for many months have been trying to put together a proposal which would reactivate that mine and would ~ut back in ?lace employment opportunities for some 650 persons from the Baie Verte Peninsula, and as well, of course, re-establish the economic base of that whole area of our Province. So we were very concerned yesterday when we learned that the union had taken a negative attitude towards the negotiations that have been carried out directly between the company and the union.

And we are concerned that indeed they have made a statement that they are not prepared to further negotiate unless and until the company owns that particular operation. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that no company is going to move in 2970

June 17, 1982 Tape 1404 PK - 2 MR . WINDSOR : to an area like Baie Verte, which has had a troubled history, and which at this moment is closed do~m because of the economic uncertainties and the asbestos industry in general, and of Baie Verte in particular . And so we are concerned tha t the union has said that they are not prepared to negotiate until the company actually owns the facility . And it is doubtful, at bes~, Mr .

Speaker, if the company would be prepared to move in and purchase the assets of Advocate Mines unless and until the union is prepared to sit dO\-m and negot iate in good faith an agreement that is acceptable to both sides . MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . A supplementary, the hon . Leader of the Opposition (t-1r . Neary) . MR. NEARY: Mr .

Speaker , in the hon . gentleman 's answer I detected that the hon . minister was attempting to make the union look like they might be the villain in this whole thing , in the event that 'l'ransr.>aci fie do not come in and reopen the asbestos mine at Baic Vcrte . Would the hon . gentleman - he referred to a figure of 600 jobs. I presume he was referring to the total payroll at peak prior to the closing of the mine- ~tould the hon . qcntlcman indicate to the llouse how many of the 600 would 'I'ransT)aci fie rc -cm_:>loy in t:1e event that they cid come in and reactive the mine?

How many jobs are we taL~ing about with Transpacific? 2071

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1405 MJ - l MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : 'rhe hon. the Minister of Development . MR. N. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, it is certainly the intention of government and the intention of the company to operate that mine at capacity as quickly as possible. Obviously some of the figures that have been bandied about over the last couple of days reflect the initial start-up. I mean, obviously a mine that is being reactivated after a number of months of closedown will require a period of phase-in and a period of breaking back into the market.

And one must remember that Advocate Mines has been operated there for many years with basically one customer, and so that particular fibre is almost unknown in the world market situation. The difficulty we have been facing over the past number of months in trying to reactivate the mine is to enlighten the purchasers of asbestos fibre in the world marketplace on just what that fibre is like and how it performs. You cannot do that unless you have a fibre that is being produced and make it available to them.

So the problem we are faced with now is reactivating t~0 mine, establishinq t~at fibre in the marketplace establishing a confidence in that Qarticular fibre and in that operation. And- if we can do that, then obviously we would be in a much better position to obtain contracts for purchase of fibre for next year, And as we obtain more contracts, as we market more of the fibre,then the operation will increase in scale and intensity and hopefully we will return that mine to its full operation. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I notice the hon. gentleman avoided answering the specific part of my question about the number that would be employed in the initial start-up of the operation. We heard a figure bandied about yesterday 2972

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1405 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: outside of the House, out of 600 in the Hork force only 100 would be re-employed. And the hon. the member for Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout)was talking about 485 during the election . MR. T. RIDEOU'i': Right on, Sir. And before the election and since. MR. NEARY: Yes. But, 'r. S''eal~er, now ,,,e learn that the work

schedule as outlined by Transpacific would only employ less than 100 men. " But anyway we will deal Lth that l<.~ter. What I wunt to <.~sk the bon. crenltem<.~n now is Wf' '1ave never heard and we have never been told in this House 1ow much money the provincial government is putting into this new company and how much the federal government will be putting in?

Could the hon. genlteman tell us now what amounts in actual cash and in benefits, like tax concessions and so forth, what will be the amount of imput on the yart of the ~·rovinical qovernment and ~1o~·; much is Ottawa expected to put into that operation? ~~_:-SPEAKER _j_!3us~~_!~l._.:_ The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. N. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, that obviously is a matter which is under negotiation at the moment' the final agreement has not been reached.

At the point in time when a •.. final agreement is reached, when we know exactly how much the Province will put in and how much the federal goverment will put in, obviously that information will be made available to hon. members. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Again the hon. gentleman is refusing to give the House specific information. 2973

:..::.. June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1406 MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman tell the House if Transpacific have any markets yet for the product of Baie Verte or are they just being subsidized by the provincial and federal governments and have no markets? Does the hon. gentleman have any hard evidence SD - 1 in front of him, has he seen any contracts or any agreements from Transpacific to indicate that this company does indeed have markets for the asbestos? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we certainly have every reason to believe that if the operation is re-activated that markets will be available. As I tried to indicate earlier to the hon. gentleman, one of the problems is that you cannot get a firm contract to supply fibre unless and until,first of all,you own a facility and can demonstrate quite ably that you are going to be operating and producing a fibre which is acceptable in themarketplace. So this is one of the problems here and we have a chicken and an egg situation and we have to try to deal with it hand in hand, Mr.

Speaker, in a reasonable and a rational manner in identifying markets, at the same time as re-activiting the operation and putting together the financial package that will be necessary to do that. We hope that over the next number of months during the negotiations that indeed additional markets will be found. One of the real dangers here, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to point out carefull~ isune of the real dangers is that if the mine is not re-activated in accordance with the

schedule that has been laid down, then we have a real possibility of losing the markets that we have already identified and therefore any major delay could result in the mine not operating this year. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader 2974

June 17, 1982 Tape No . 1406 SD - 2 MR . NEARY : could the hon. gentleman identify the markets that Tra nspacific have? MR . SPEAKER (Russell): l>1R . WINDSOR: The hon . Minister of Development . No, . ltr . Speaker, I am not at liberty . They are markets which are in the world market place . They are not markets that vtere in place before but these are commercial negotiations and \·then they are finalized by all means r will make the information available . MR . NEARY: MR . SPEAKER: of the Opposition . Supplementary, Mr . Speaker . Supplementary, the bon . Leader MR .

NEARY : ~le are not getting very much information from the hon . gentleman . I wonder if the hon . gentleman could tell the House whether or not - SOME HON . ME1 •1BERS : Oh 1 oh . MR . NEARY: - this seems to be the kind of a deal, Mr . Spea ker, that we need to ask a lot of questions about . Could the hon . gentleman tell the House if the provincial govern~ent 29 75

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1407 RA - 1 MR. S. NEARY: is taking equity in the new company2 If the provincial government is going to subsidize and to put substantial amounts of money into this company called Tran9r~cific, will the Province be taking an equity position in the companY? ~·lR.. SJ'EAKER(Russell): 'rhe hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, first of all there is no subsidy, The hon. gentleman is incorrect when he makes that kind of a statement.

We will be providing some financial assistance,perhaps by way of government guaranteed loans or whatever,which will be recovered by the Province in due course. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentle- man indicate to the House who owns the mine at the pre­ sent time and the equipment?

Is it still owned by Johns­ r.1anville? p:nd if it is owned by Johns-Manville, then would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House whether Trans­ pacific has opened up negotiations with Johns-Hanville to either buy or take control of the mine? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I find it amazing that after all of these months of trying to negotiate the re­ opening of the mine, the hon. gentleman opposite does not even know who owns it. It is owned by Advocate Mines Limited.

Johns-Manville are simply operators and manage~~ of the mine, -or they were before the closeaown of the mine. They were under contract to Advocate Mines Limited. And negotiations are taking place with the receiver, Mr.Speaker, 2976

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1407 RA - 2 MR . WINDSOR: who is now effectively in con- trol of that operation and any negotiations that are being held are being held with him. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I understand then from the hon. gentleman that negotiations will have to continue with Johns-Manville,who are the managers.And the hon. gentleman can be as snarky as he wants but we are looking for inforrnation,Mr. Speaker,and the hon. gentleman is not being very co-operative.

Would the hon. gentleman in­ dicate to the House whether this will be a major hurdle for Transpacific to overcome to get con­ trol of this company and the assets at Baie Verte from Johns-Manville? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, the owners of the mine, as I indicated, are of course the shareholderE,and any agreement to sell that mine by the receiver would obviously have to be approved by the shareholders. As one of the shareholders,Johns-Manville obviously will have an input into that.

There may be some difficulty in negotiating with them,and government has already a position that we will support any potential takeover which has been already, in fact, supported by both federal and provincial governments, the proposal by Transpacific Asbestos and any negotiations that are necessary with Johns-Manville or anybody else. Certainly we will participate in and lend any support that we can to ensure that that oper~tion is re-activated. 2977

June 17, 1982 Tape No . 1407 RA- 3 MR . NEARY : A supplementary, Mr .Speaker . ~ffi. SPEAKER(Russell): A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition . MB. NEARY : Mr . Speaker, is the hon. minister aware that the equipment, such as trucks and shovels etc .,are not owned by Johns -Manville or Advocate Mines but are owned by a company called Grayhound? ~he equipment is leased . 2978

June 17, 1982, Tape 1408, Page l -- apb MR. WINDSOR: what about the rest of it? MR. NEARY: That is part of it, now Now would the han. gentleman indicate to the House if Transpacific is negotiating with Greyhound to take over the leasing agreement betweer . Greyhound and Johns-Manville? ~m. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman should know that there are many more companies than Greyhound involved here, that a great deal of the equipment is indeed leased. I have been very much aware of that.

And, yes, Transnacific ~sbestos are having negotiations with these companies now to ensure an orderly takeover of that operation. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. minister aware of the proposal that was put to the union for the operation, for the start-up, or the initial start­ up as the han. gentleman indicated? Could the hon. gentleman tell us what proposal was put before the union that they rejected? Is the han. gentleman aware of the proposal? If he is, could he give the House the details?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, Question Period is only thirty minutes long. The proposal, as I understand it, is some fifteen pages long. I do not have it with me and neither do I have it memorized. However, basically the situation is one that the salaries that were being paid at the time the mine closed down will be in effect. The cost of living allowance will be awarded. There is some dispute over whether or not an eighty cent per hour 2979

June 17, 1982, Tape 1408, Page 2 -- apb MR. WINDSOR: increase, which would have come into effect during the period of close-down of the mine, should be put into effect. And there are, obviously, many other clauses which are being negotiated. I do not know if the hon. gentleman wants more detail than that. If so, I will have to get an actual copy of the proposal and, with the permission of the parties involved, if they agree,I would make it available to him. Without that, I cannot. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

The hon. the Leader of the Perhaps I could be a little more specific with the han. gentleman and ask him if it is correct that the proposal that was put to the union with regard to the work

schedule was that the work

schedule be from August to October, one milling shift a day for five days a week, that would be one shift for five days a week in the mill, and from November to December three milling shifts per day for three days a week, or twenty-four hours per worker per week, and in the mine, August to September one mining shift per day for five days, and from October to December two mining shifts per day for five days a week? Is the han. gentleman aware, or could he confirm whether or not this was the proposed part of the proposal that was put to the union? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I do not have those exact details available to me at the moment, but there certainly was a proposal which provided, in accordance with the marketing tLat has been identified, a proposal which '1-TOUld provide 2980

June 17, 1982, Tape 1408, Page 3 -- apb MR. WINDSOR: a sufficient amount of fibre to meet the market requirements. And that was the reason for which, as we 2981

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1409 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: talked about earlier 1 we would be phasing in the operation and increasing the intensity of it as the markets increased and as new markets were identified. And,yes, in the proposal there is a work

schedule 1 which is a phase-in sort of system,that allows that mine to operate, based on the markets that have already been identified and the supply schedules that have been agreed to. As new markets are identified, hopefully, the intensity of the operation will be increased, more employees will be re­ hired and the mine will return to a much higher level of activity. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader Mr.

Speaker, could the hon. gentleman confirm or otherwise whether or not a part of the proposal that was put forward would be that the company would not stockpile any material in Baie Verte, there would be no stockpiling? Could the hon. gentleman confirm that or deny it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: of that. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader Mr.

Speaker, is the hon. gentleman aware that a part of the proposal was that the union members be asked to accept an eighty cent reduction in pay and that the two year agreement that the union was talking about would start at the date of the opening of the mine , and that in total there would be a 22 per cent reduction of monetary benefits to the union members. aware of that? Is ·the hon. gentleman MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. 298?

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1409 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have already answered that question. I indicated earlier that the cost of living allowance apparently had been offered, that the eighty cents has not been offered,but there is no 22 per cent reduction, there is simply not the increase that would have taken place during the term during which the mine was closed down. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER ililward): of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, I presume, is familiar with successor rights.

The hon. gentleman has done, I presume, his homework on that. Under the labour laws of this Province,when a new company moves in and takes over , the rights of the employees are protected under what they call successor rights. Now has l:he hon. gentleman done any research on that particular item to get a legal opinion to determine whether or not 'l'rans- pacific Asbestos has to accept the agreement of the previous company in Baie Verte? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, there is no question about law in this case at all.

The company is not questioning the laws of this Province, have no intention of,and neither would government tolerate such a thing. Simply all they are doing is re-negotiating with the employees who were there in place. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, more or less, confirmed that the figures that I threw out in connection with the start-up, the proposal that was made on the work

schedule and so forth, was correct. Now, Mr. 2963

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1409 so - 3 MR. NEARY: Speaker, according to the work

schedule it would seem that what we are talking about here is less than 100 jobs. Can the hon. gentleman confirm whether or not that is correct 1 that in the work schedule, as I outlined it 2984

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1410 ah-1 MR. NEARY: and the company outlined it to the union,that we are talking about less than 100 jobs? MR.WINDSOR: No, Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about less than 100 jobs. MR.NEARY: Well, Mr.Speaker, could the hon. gentleman tell us how many jobs we are talking about? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister. MR.WINDSOR: I am not sure, Mr.

Speaker, if this is the third or fourth time that I have indicated this afternoon that the number of jobs obviously will depend on the market conditions,on the dates for deliveries and the commitments that are made. ~s the mine is reactivated, as confidence in the fibre is found, as an assurance that the mine will operate is found, therefore new markets will be identified and the scale and the rate of activity at the mine will increase. MR.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker, a supplementary. The han Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, it is reported that the provincial government will be putting at least $5 million into that project and the federal government will be putting in approximately $20 million,for a total of $25 million. Now, Mr.Speaker, with that kind of funding going in to subsidize the mine or to fund the mine,as the hon. gentleman indicated - the han. gentleman does not call it a subsidy,but I do not know; a rose by any other name, I think, would smell just as sweet- but would he not consider that to be a high price to pay for 100 jobs?

Could not the hon. gentleman drive a harder bargain and try to secure more employment for the former employees of Advocate Mines rather than pay $25 million for 100 jobs? Could the hon. gentleman not get a better deal than that? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR.WINDSOR: First of all, Mr.Speaker, I do 2985

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1410 ah-2 MR . WINDSOR: not accept any responsibility for inaccurate reporting whjch says $25 m~lion is being put into that operation . The figure is less than that,and I do not intend to give the -figure . The hon . gentleman asked me that question earlier and I have answered that . Secondly there are more than 100 jobs,so it is very jrresponsible of the hon . gentleman oppo site to indicate that 1-'e are paying $25 million,which is an inaccurate figure,to create 100 jobs,which is also inaccurate . MR.NEARY: Mr . Speaker, a supplementary . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR.NEARY: The hon .

I.eader of the Opposition. The hon . gentleman, Mr . Speaker, is reluctant to give the House information for some reason or other in connection with this project . Could the han . gentleman give us a little bit of background of the company we are talking about , Transpacific, a completely unknown company? Can the hon . gentleman g ive us a little bit of the background of that company? SOME liON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! 2<;166

June 17, 1982 Tape 1411 PK - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I think a number of months ago, when I first issued a statement in this House that Transpacific Asbestos had put forward a proposal which seemed very favorable, I gave some background on the company. The company is a company operating out of Toronto, Ontario,that are operating at the moment a mine in Australia, and a number of other various types of operations in various countries. Other than that I do not know how much detail the hon. gentleman would like. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I would like a little more detail than that, just brushing it off by saying that they have something in Toronto. What is it that they have in Canada this Transpacific? Could the hon. gentleman identify their operations in Canada and tell the House what kind of an operation they run in Canada? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development . Mr. Speaker, I have not memorized all the operations, I will try to get that information for the hon. gentleman and give it to him at a later date. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is really something.

We are talking about a multimillion dollar deal and the hon. - SOME HON. ME~·1BERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: the information. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR,. SPEAKER: MR,NEA~Y: SOME HON. MEMBERS: 2987 Oh, oh! Order, please! - gentleman does not have Oh, oh! Order, please! Let me ask the hon. gentleman - Oh, oh!

June 17, 1982 Tape 1411 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! I realize the importance perhaps of this topic. The Chair has been , I think, more than lenient in allowing an extremely laryc number of supplementary questions, and maybe there are other persons who would like to ask questions. This will be the final supplementary. MR. NEARY: Well,if there are, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hen. President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order and a point of privilege combined.

When Your Honour is speaking in this House,and particularly addressing a member about a matter that he is bringing up in the House,that member is duty bound to take his seat and show some respect for the Chair of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: And I would suggest that the hon. member adopt this in the future. And I draw it to Your Honour's attention for the purpose of calling him to order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I would not bother to respond to that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is correct when the Speaker is making a ruling or bringing points to hon. members attention that he should be heard in silence. As I said,the Chair has been more than lenient in allowing an exceptionally large number of supplementary questions. Certainly if there are no others who want to ask questions,then the Chair is prepared to letthehon. Leader of the Opposition continue. 29BB

June 17, 1982 Tape 1411 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Good ruling, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the bon. minister - and the bon. House Leader (Mr. Marshall) can try to protect the minister all he wants- Could the minister tell the House what kind of an operation Transpacific has in Australia, and is it a viable operation that they have in Australia? Or does the bon. gentleman know anything at all about this company? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The bon. Minister of Development . MR. WINDSOR: ~r.

Speaker, the operation, as I have already indicated is an asbestos mining operation in Australia which has been operating now for many years. There have been some financial difficulties with the company and the Government of Australia. MR. NEARY: Oh,I see. MR. RIDEOUT: They did not walk away from it though. MR. WINDSOR: Listen to the bon. gentleman. MR. RIDEOUT: They managed to finance it. MR. WINDSOR: It is interesting that the Government of Australia has shown enough confidence in the operation down there that they have participated in it with them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! -···· . -- MR.

RIDEOUT: And the government of New South Wales. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I presume that the bon. gentleman - MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: - has checked out the assessor rights 2989

June 17, 1982 Tape 1412 NM ~ 1 MR. NEARY: that I spoke about a few moments ago. I did not hear the hon. gentleman confirm or deny whether or not he has gotten a leqal ruling, and if this company has been told that they have to abide by the laws of Canada and of Newfoundland. Has the hon. gentleman got a legal opinion on this matter of successor rights? And if the hon. gentleman does have a legal opinion,is he prepared to table it in the House? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, again I have already answered that question; there is no dispute over the laws of thi~ Province. The company is very familiar with the labour legislation as administered by my hon. colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). They are not disputing or questioning that legislation and will certainly be abiding by it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I presume also from the information the hon. gentleman gave and from the things that we have been reading in the newspapers and hearing on the radio about this deal,that the market the hon. ,gentleman is talking about for the product of this company is in India, And would the hon. gentleman indicate whether or not in this particular industry that the fibres have to be sent out a year in advance in order to make them acceptable - or to determine whether or not they are accpetable to the market·~ · And if this market is in India,has the product been accepted by whoever is going to buy it in India?

Or is there just speculation so far as to whether or not the product of Baie Verte can indeed by sold to India? 2990

June 17, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. WINDSOR: Tape 1412 NM - 2 The han. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge,yes 1 samples of that fibre have been made available to the potential customer.And I will confirm,yes, that India is one, ~nd I stress just one of the potential customers.

At this point in time there is not a firm commitment,but we have every reason to believe that the fibre would be bought by that operation, And again that depends on starting up the operation and ensuring that fibre will be available and these people of course have marketing commitments for their own products and they have to know that there is a security of supply. Until the operation is resumed, then it is impossible of course to give firm commitments to these people that the fibre will be available. So it is very important, Mr.

Speaker, that these negotiations continue with all haste, that .an agreement be reached between union and company, both levels of government, the shareholders of the company, the receivers, and the new company moving in, as well as the marketing people. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of Mr. Speaker, that was a slightly different answer than the one I got about fifteen minutes ago from the hon. gentleman about markets. I asked the hon. gentleman before if there were firm markets for the products of Transpacific.

Now could the hon. gentleman tell me, yes or no, are there indeed firm markets or is this just speculation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. 2991

June 17, 1982 Tape 1412 NM - 3 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the previous question was different than the question that was asked earlier. Earlier he asked me were there firm markets. 2992

June 17, 1982, Tape 1413, Page 1 --apb MR. WINDSOR: The previous question was was the market in India firm, and I have answered that. But there are other firm markets other than India. As I have indicated, there is more than one market being looked at for the fibre from Baie Verte. MR. NEARY: supplementary. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr.

Speaker, a final The hon. the Leader of the Could the hon. gentleman indicate now-I will go back to the question I started within the beginning about that events that took place yesterday in Baie Verte-does this mean now that the union is going to be painted by the hon. gentleman as the villian, or are negotiations continuing? And could the hon. gentleman tell the House when the mine is expected to start up again? MR. SPEAKER: Development. MR. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, we would certainly hope that negotiations would continue.

Certainly it is our indication from the company that they would be very prepared to continue negotiating with the union on the natters that have been addressed over the past day or so. I trust that the union will take the same position, and that they will indeed be prepared to sit down and negotiate with the company.

We would certainly hope that as a result of that we can put in place a financial package, a marketing package and a labour package which will ensure this operation will return to normal by around mid-August at the latest and that the people of Baie Verte will have an opportunity for continued employment. 2993

June 17, 1982, Tape 1413, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could try to pin the hon. gentleman down - MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: - a little further. Will the hon. gentleman tell the House now what hurdles, apart from the union negotiations that he keeps referring to, what other hurdles have to be overcome now in order to get that mine reactivated at Baie Verte? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, once again the negotiations are progressing very well.

There is a difficulty, of course, with the union that we have already addressed this afternoon, there are the continuing difficulties of identifying firm markets and that, of course, depends on all the factors that I have talked about. There are the financial implications of putting together the final details of the financial package. When all that is in place, we will have an operation. MR. NEARY: So the thing is way up in the air. MR. WINDSOR: The bon. gentleman obviously does not understand what it takes to get a business in place. MR. NEARY: SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: I understand. I understand. Oh, oh!

Not like the Eell Island contract the bon. gentleman had on his desk before the election was called MR. NEARY: Well, at least there was a contract. At least there was a contract. What a gigantic bluff. What a bluff. What a bluff. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 2994

June 17, 1982, Tape 1413, Page 3 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: It is not the Belle Island bluff, I can tell you. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Let me ask the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), a question, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: Let me ask the Minister of Social Services, Mr. Speaker, is he satisfied SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY : MR. CALLAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: of Social Services - MR. HICKEY: rest of it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! I cannot hear. No. Oh, oh! Order, please! Let me ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, I got that part, will you give me the Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! I plead with hon. members on both sides. The hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan ) had been attempting to ask a question, and the hon. minister has indicated that he cannot hear it, and the Speaker cannot hear anybody - so would everybody, please, be quiet? MR. YOUNG: MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Let us hear somebody. He did not get a chance to get it out yet . The hon. the member for Bellevue. Yes. The hon. the Minister of Social Services, let me ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker, is he satisfied with the 90 day plan, for the want of a better expression? An applicant for social services, for example, has to 2995

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1414 MJ - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: have his financial situation reviewed ninety days previous to his applying to that department. Is the minister satisfied that that ninety day rule is a good rule in all cases for applicants of Social Services? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. T. HICKEY: Cases of people applying for social assistance are dealt with on the basis of individual circumstances as it applies to the family, and whether it is thirty, sixty or ninety days, there is nothing magic about it.

The overall circumstances of the family are taken into account and the decision is arrived at based on those circumstances. What the hon. gentleman is referring to is eligiblity regulations that are in place, and the change from thirty to sixty and ninty days. And I say to my hon. friend, yes, I am satisfied and indeed I have no difficulty in defending the changing of that from thirty to sixty to ninety days because my staff in the field have the clear-cut authority and discretion to help people and families who are in need, not1~ithstanding income in the oast thirty, sixty or ninety days.

And they are charged with the responsibility of seeing to it that no undue hardship is created,or in fact that a legitimate need is responded to and filled. The other thing is, Mr. Speaker, the whole basis for going from thirty to sixty to ninety days is in fact to instill in people,who sometimes are not always as resourceful as they should be in thedisbursement of their financial resources, that - first things first - to provide for their children, the family unit, not necessarily to acquir~ other things in life, be it vacation, be it vehicles, be it luxury items, be it a whole ranqe of thinqs.

And of course, finally, Mr. S~eaker, there are cases where indeed 2996

June 17, 1982 Tape No . 1414 MJ - 2 MR . T. HICKEY: someone in the past thirty days has had no income but in the past ninety days they could well have earned $10,000. And some of those have found their. way on social assistance . SOME BON . 11EMBERS : MR . SPEAKER (Russell): has expired. MR . J. HODDER : MR . SPEAKER: Port . Hear, hear! Order, please! The time for Oral Questions 000 A ~oint of order, Mr . Speaker . The hon . the member for Port au MR. HODDER~ Mr . Speaker, I have noticed here throughout Question Period that there is hardly anybody here in the front benches .

If we are going to ask questions -I have been waiting to ask the t·linister of Fisheries (Mr . J . Morg an) a question for quite some time . SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . HODDER : The ministersof Fisheries, Forest Resources and Lands (~tr. C. Power), Education (Ms . L. Verge), Health (Mr. w. Roese), 29 97

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1415 RA - 1 MR. HODDER: the Premier and the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe), just to name a few, are not here. And besides that - MR. BAIRD: Ther"! were none of you here at three o'clock. MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Order, please! MR. HODDER: - Mr. Speaker , what has happened to this government? Are they crumbling? Can they not keep the ministers in the House. MR. NEARY: They are falling apart, falling apart. MR.SPEA!~~ - - The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: That is not a point of order. MR. NEARY: It is a legitimate point of order. MR.

MARSHALL: The fact of the matter, Mr.soeaker,is that any of the ministers that are not in the Chamber are about business of the government and the hon. gentleman is well aware of it. It is also a fact,, Mr. Speaker, tnat that is a rather cheap point of order the hon. gentle­ man brings up. It is not a point of order, we had to sus­ pend the operation really for a few moments today in order to see that the Opposition got up here in time to take part tn OuP-stion Period. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Order, please!

The point of order raised by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.Hodder) is not indeed a point of order. 2998

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1415 RA - 2 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SP ECIAL COMMITTEES . MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to MR. WINDSOR: table the report of the Northern Oceans Research and Development Corporation. SOME HO N . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to repo rt that the Social Services Rstimat es Committe e - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

CARTER: - I would like to report that the Social Services Estimates Committee has met and completed their work and have passed the following heads: Head Xll-Environment~ Head Xlll-Education, Head XlV-Social Services, H.ead XV Health, iiead-XVlll­ Culture, Recreation and Youuh and Head XlX-Tustice without amendment. On motion report received and adopted. ANSWERS TO QUE ST IONS FOR WHI CH NOTI CE HAS BEEN GIVEN . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The hoh.member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) is keeping up the good work.

I table two further answers that he requested, on June 22nd; and May 4th. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2999

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1415 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. MARSHALL: Order 4. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Unified Family Court Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 43) MR. MARSHALL: Order 5. RA - 3 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 2) 3000

June 17, 1982 Tape 1416 NM - 1 Motion, the hon . Minister of Labour and Manpower ( Mr . Dinn) to introduce a bill, ''An Act To Amend the Workers' Compensation Act," carried . (Bill No . 50) On motion, Bill No. 50 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow . Motion, the hon. Minister Responsible For Energy (Mr. Marshall) to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro Act, 1975", carried . (Bill No . 51) On motion, Bill No . 51, read a first time , ordered read a second time on tomor row. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on supply, Mr .

Speaker left the Chair. MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order , please ! Before we start discussion on Head 302 -01, I would like to give a ruling on a point of order raised by the hoo. President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) the last day we sat in Committee . I have reviewed Hansard and when the hon . President of the Council moved a point of 3001

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1417 ah-1 MR.CHAIRMAN (A ylward): order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition withdrew his remarks,so the point of order is settled. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.CHAIRMAN: 302-01 MR.NEARY: I do not remember what it was I said that upset the bon. gentleman but - MR.CHAIRMAN: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: - the last thing in this world we want to do , Mr. Chairman, is upset the Government House Leader because the bon. ocntleman could unleash such a vicious attack on us. We know what the bon. gentleman is capable of.

We have seen it happen in the last fortv-eiqht hours or sevcntv-two hours. MR. TULK: wording. MR.NEARY: He ).s going to change his He is going to change 'his wording now,is he? Well , Mr. Chairman, we are on the Premier's salary again today and we have three or four hours left to debate the Premier's salary.And it is a good thing we do have some time left , Mr. Chairman - MR.HODDER: MR.NEARY: There is so much happening. - when there is so much happening. The Premier went off again on another jaunt, this time to speak to the National Press Gallery up in Ottawa.And he finally took off his mask yesterday, Mr.

Chairman, in Ottawa in a speech to the National Press Club and he said -and I quote the hon. Premier here is what he said, "Unless Newfoundland's economy and social conditions improve,there is a chance separatist sentiment could qrow in this Province." MR. RIDEOUT: How do you know he said that? 3002

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1417 ah-2 MR. NF:AP.Y: How do I know he said it? MR. RIDEOUT: They do not write that wholly for newspapers. MR.NEARY: Well,I did not hear the Premier deny it so I can only assume that he is standing by it. MR. RIDEOUT: What did he say after it? MR.HODDER: Do not even bother to answerhim, Santa Claus! MR.NEARY: What did he say after? I do not know. He says so many things , Mr. Chairman, that the problem we have is keeping up with the hon. gentleman. But I would think that he finally put his cards on the table, Mr. Chairman.

His statement is the first honest comment- t:h .At: we have heard from the Premier about how he can conceivethat Canada could be fractured if social and economic conditions in Newfoundland are not to his liking. Mr. Chairman, this is not the first time that the Premier of this Province has made this kind of a statement on Mainland Canada.

Less than a year ago he made similar statements in Montreal and in British Columbia,and we are beginning to find out now, Mr.Chairman, from these statements that are being mad~ which are wild and irresponsible statements by the Premier of this Province, we are beginning to find out where he really stands with regard to Confederation and to where this Province stands within Confederation and 1.-1i thin this country. The hon. 3003

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1418 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: gentleman, Mr. Chairman, seems to want to mesmerize the people of this Province with these kind of anti-Confederate and anti-Canadian statements. And, Mr. Chairman, I would think that an awful lot of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians this morning were very concerned and terribly upset with the thoughts that were expressed by the Premier on his latest jaunt to Ottawa. Mr.

Chairman, even if the hen. gentleman was harbouring these thoughts in his mind, even if he had them tucked away in his computer, you would think that discretion would be the better part of valour, that the hen. gentleman would keep these thoughts to himself. Because what he is really doing in a shrewd, slick, slippery kind of way, Mr. Chairman, what he is really saying is that if he does not get his own way, if things do not work out to his satisfaction, then he is likely to lead Newfoundland into a movement to separate from the rest of Canada. That is really what the hon. gentleman is saying, Mr. Chairman.

What he is really saying is that he can foresee the day in this Province when he will have his own little kingdom. We will have no hospital care, no MCP, we will have no social assistance programmes whereby the people of this Province collect 50 per cent of their social assistance from the Government of Canada, we will have hospitals operated on a reduced scale, we will have no road programmes other than vital roads that exist throughout the Province. And perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, the only thing that would survive would be the luxuries that the Premier is so quick to protect for himself, the luxuries of having a rent-free house and his telephone paid for,and his lights paid for and his heating bills paid by the people of this Province,and his private dining room and his own airplane and helicopters,and his own bodyquards. 3004

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1418 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: that sort of thing. That is about all we would have in this Province, Mr. Chairman. The only other thing we would have,if the hon. gentleman succeeds in hauling Newfoundland out of Confederation, we would have a bunch of sociologists running around Newfoundland studying us specimens that would be left behind, sociologiats would be 3005

June 17, 1982 Tape 1419 PK - l MR. NEARY: going around studying the victims of the biggest con job of all time, Mr. Chairman, this is really what the bon. gentleman is advocating, and I think it is shameful, Mr. Chairman. It is shameful that the bon. gentle­ man should drop this little pearl of wisdom to the Press Club in Ottawa. Because by doing that, Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman must be conscious that what he is doing as Premier of this Province, as the Chief Executive Officer in this Province, ~e is·planting the idea of separation in t~e minds of the Newfoundland people. That is what he is doing, Mr.

Chair­ man. And what he is telling the rest of Canada is that if the bon. gentleman does not get his own way, if the Government of Canada does not do things his way or the Government of Quebec does not do things his way, that the next thing we know, Mr. Chairman, is that the premier of this Province will be sponsoring a referendum on separation. I can see that corning, Mr. Chairman. That is not too far down the road. MR. BAIRD: MR. NEARY: MR. BAIRD: MR. NEARY: Rubbish! What is rubbish? Rubbish.! Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman can say it is rubbish.

But what we are seeing here is a deliberate attempt on the part of the Premier of this Province to place the idea, food for thought, in the minds of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, that Newfoundlanders should separate. AN HON. MEMBER: now? MR. NEARY: to that - What do you think you are doing I am opposed to it. I am opposed SOME HON. MEMBERS 1 Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chai:t;"rnan, I am opposed to that kind of a con game. And it is the biggest con game of all time, Mr. Chairman, - AN HON. MEMBER: It is not a con game. 3006

June 17, 1982 MR . NEARY : AN HON . MEMBER : Tape 1419 PK - 2 Yes, it is a con ·game . (inaudi~le) contra ct was? MR . NEARY: Mr . Chairman, the hon . Premier should go a little further and tell us what kind of Newfoundland we will have after he starts his separation movement . AN EON . ME~tBER : MR . NEJI .RY : A constitutional monarchy. What kind of coins will we be using in Newfoundland? Will we be using the peso , lira, or the yen after the hon . gentleman is finished pulling us 300 7

June 17, 1982, Tape 1420, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: out of Confederation, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, the whole attitude of this administration since day one has been anti-Confederate, anti-Canadian. Mr. Chairman, all we hear from this administration,day in and day out, are anti-Canadian slogans, anti-Canadian statements. And what they are really doing is that the hon. gentlemen who are anti­ Confederates, and the hon. Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is one, the anti-Confederates are fighting the battle of Confederation all over again. MR. MARSHALL: What nonsense. MR. NEARY: That is not nonsense, Mr.

Chairman. I defy the bon. Government House Leader, I challenge him to get up in this House and tell the House what a good Canadian he is, and how much he appreciates living in Canada, one of the finest countries in the world. There is no other country in the world today the equal of Canada. There is no other country that I would like to live in other than Canada. I think it is one of the best countries in the world. Mr. Chairman, any problems that we have within Confederation we should be able to resolve through negotiations. But this administration will not negotiate.

You either do things the way that the Government House Leader and the Premier want them done or you do not do them at all. They are paranoid, Mr. Chairman. They are in a manic state. MR. WINDSOR: Tell us how you would do it now. MR. NEARY: Yes, I can tell the han. gentleman how I would do it. I already gave the administration advice that they will not listen to. The only way, Mr. Chairman, to resolve labour/management disputes, to resolve territorial disputes, to resolve differences of opinion between two parties is to sit down 3008

June 17, 1982, Tape 1420, Page 2 --apb MR. NEARY: faith. MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): has elapsed. MR. NEARY: again, Mr. Chairman. MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: the Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: coming from 3009 and negotiate in good Order, please! The hon. member's time I will get back at it Mr. Chairman. The hon. the President of Hear, hear! Now, Mr. Chairman, that is

June 17, 1982 Tape 1421 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) of this Province, the same gentleman who wants to bring the estimates back into the full House. He tells the people of this Province that by bringing the estimates back into the full House and Committee of the Whole, such as we have now, all of the estimates, that the Province would be better served by an intensive examination of the expenditures. Now we have seen an example of what it would lead to. It would be seventy­ five hours of that.

In actual fact what happened with the estimates is they have been divided off into smaller committees and as a result of this all members who wish to get a greater appreciation of the workings of government, and at the same time the government gets a greater appreciation of areas where it can look to for improving the management of the Province. Not a question, Mr. Chairman, last Tuesday, not a question so far today with respect to the estimates.

The only type of questions that the han. gentleman wants to raise are the little innuendoes, the old hackneyed type of statements with respect to the Premier and the Premier's house and what have you,that people just are not interested in listening to anymore. The hon. gentleman spent the whole time talking about the matter of separatism, anti-Confederatism~ The only thing I can say to the hon. gentleman is this, Mr.

Chairman, that within a family, the family of Canada as in any family, you can have disputes, and certainly we have had our disputes,but also within a family, particularly the younger members of the family, do not get to fly until they assert their rights. There were, during the period of the first twenty years of Confederation, no assertions 3010

June 17, 1982 Tape 1421 NM - 2 MR . MARSHALL : of the rights of Newfoundland within Confederation .

The only thing we were taught to was to sing the greatest gift next to God himself was Confederation, to be thankful for the welfare payments, and transfer payments that came do~~, and to be good boys, keep our lips buttoned and sit in our seat while at the same time, unfortunately, other more powerful areas of Canada \·lere depriving us from our rightful resources which would have supported this Province and brought us ·.1p to the level of all Canadians, which is all that this Province wants to do, and all the Premier wants to do, all any minister or any member on this side of the House wishes to do .

Now because we assert a strong stand, and it is only by asserting and continuing to assert strong stands that you are qoing to get your rights, they attempt to discredit the administration in the only way they know how, by saying it is anti-Confederate and it is separatist . If you open your mouth, 3 0 11

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1422 so - 1 MR. MARSHALL: if you are not a lap-doggish little toady like: the hon. members are, always down snivelling on their knees-the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary),we have seen what was hann~ncd to him since this' session has transrlired. first off he gets up in this House and he says that he would not trust Mr. Lalonde, I believe he said, as far as he could throw him. And obviously he was disciplined and he was brought to heel by the federal rajah or whoever it was - perhaps by the leader outside the House, Mr.

Stirling, I do not know; I do not know what the reason was­ but all of a sudden he comes in meek and mild and he starts asserting what Mr. Lalonde says, and the protector of Mr. Lalonde, protector of the federal government. And that is all well and Eine for the hon. gentleman,because the hon. gentleman knows where that road leads. And \·le have tried that road for a number of years and we have seen what has happened as a result to our resources.

All that this government wants, make no mistake about it, is just an equal chance to gain equality, equality of services, equality of opportunity for the people of this Province equal to other Canadians. We want the right to be able to contr.jbute to Canada, we want the right to be able to develop our resources so that one of those days,instead of having to take transfer payments, we can have the privilege and the dignity that any provinces wishes or any individual wishes, to be able to make a contribution to the rest of Canada rather than have it come all in the other way.

Now we do not happen to think, by the way, it comes all to the degree and the other way that the hon. gentlemen think it does,because one of the thorns in the side of the flesh of this Province is the Upper Churchill contract. We know that an amount equal to the amount we are receiving in equalization 3012

June 17, 1982 Tape No . 1422 t<IR . MARSHALL : payments _ or iust about that much,is going into the Province of Quebec,and we strongly believe that what should happen- equalization is great and that is fine-~ut it is the Province of Quebec that should receive $600 million on the equalization payments and it is we .,.,ho should receive the benefit of our resources of $600 million .And then we will build on that and we will be able to contribute to Quebec and we wll be able to contribute to Nova Scotia and the other provinces that do not . That is all we w~nt and that is all we do. SOME HON.

ME~1BERS: o:,, oh 1 MR . MARSHALL: And the hon . gentleman there opposite can squeal and holler all he wants to about the anti-Confederatism and what have you and get on with such inanities,but that is not the fact and I do not think that anybody in this Province believes it . I mean , the question was put to the people of this Province less than three months ago on that vP.rv s;pnr- - AN HON . r-'J.E.M.BER : T•tc same issue . so - 2 MR . MARSHALL : - yes, on that very , very same issue .

And the people of this Province spoke loud and strong and very firmly,as you can see by the distribution of the seats, as you can see by the popular vote , that they approve 3013

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1423 MJ - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: of the policy of this government in the assertion of the rights of the people of Newfoundland within the Canadian Confederation. And this is what t!1e government is doing. ~ow, to come back again, Mr. Chairman, I will take my seat nmv in the ho::>es that we will get some meaningful questions to answer on the estimates "After all, the fact of the matter is the Minister of Finance has introduced into the legislature of this Province the best budget that has ever been presented, certainly, in modern times.

I repeat again,as we have to do day after day after day, this is the only Province in Eastern Canada that is coming in with a balance budget on current account, and that in hard time3 with the meager resources which we have.

The Province of Quebec is borrowing a total of nearly $ 3 billion, but a??roximately $2 billion on current account.The Province of Nova Scotia has raised retail sales tax by two per cent, personal income by four per cent, all other taxes, but is still coming in with a deficit on current account of about $130 million.The Province of New Brunswick is cominq in with a deficit in current account and so is the Province of Prince Edward Island.

Now what is this little province doing?Despite' the fact that it is assailed on all sides, its resources are being husbanded away from it by the federal qovernment in the offshore, they have been dissipated from it up in Labrador, despite all these factors, despite the economic climate, this government is coming in with a surplus-not a deficit­ on current acrount of $4.5 million. And that is no mean feat. Now the hon. gentlemen will get as they will on radio and television, and you will hear them from time to time saying that the budget is a false one, it is cooked up and all the rest of it.

They said the same last year, Mr. Chairman, but the same thing ?ertained. We were the ones last year to 3014

June 17 , 1982 'filpe No . 1423 MJ - 2 MR . \v. MARSHALL : come in and rculize a surplus on current account . Now if they think thilt this budqet, Mr . Chairman, is phony and is made up with elements that arc not correct, that cannot stand the test of questioning , 111hy do they not ask quescions with respect to the expenditure of the money instead of getting on with these stupid inanities chat we have heard the past couple of days from the Leader of the Opposition (t·tr . S. Neary) which does nothinq to diqnify the office which he holds so temporarily? SOMP. liON .

Mf:Mili-:HS : llc<a r, hr•<lr ! ---- ---- .. --------.... MR . E. HISCOCK : Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon . the member for Eagle River . MR . HISCOCK: Mr . Speaker, with regard to commenting upon the sillary of the Premier's Offi ce : It has been reported now, of course that the Premier is 3015

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1424 ah-1 MR.HISCOCK: in a little bit of a controversy with the media of this Province and why he got himself into that is beyond me. But I would like to address a few things that the President of the Council stated . He said that , you know, we should sit back here and accept our handouts and every other little bit that Ottawa gives us and be grateful and close our mouth and go cap-in-hand and all these things. It is this attitude , Mr.

Chairman, that is not only perpetuated here in this Province but in other provinces that got Canada, this great country of ours, in the mess that it is in with regard to economics, with regard to national unity and other problems. At the World Economic Summit in France, in Versailles, they ended up interviewing people in the major cities of the industrial world in these seven countries ,and the question was asked, 'Which country do you think has the greatest hope, in which country are the people most contented and happy?' Without any doubt all seven of them picked- or sb: of them picked Canada.

The only one that picked the United States of American was Japan and , of course, Japan ended up picking Canada second. Here are outside countries of Spain, Italy, France, United States , Japan and West Germany , all these countries feeling that Canada has the greatest potential and also has unflinching potential of the future,and yet here we have,in our own Province the President of the Council getting up and saying Central Canada, other parts of Canada really do not want this part of Canada to become great or to become anything. MR.ANDREWS: True. MR.HISCOCK: The Minister of the Environment 3n1R

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1424 ah-2 MR.HISCOCK: (Mr.Andrews) says it is true. Well I would go so far as to say that if you go to Quebec you will hear the same thing from Mr. Levesque and the Minister of Energy there; if you go out in Alberta you will hear the same thing from Alberta and Peter Lougheed. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.HISCOCK: And the one thing, Mr. Chairman, that this decade will be recorded with historians,as much as the Minister of the Environment (Mr.Andrews) would like to think and like to put it on the shoulders of the Prime Minister of this country, Mr.

Trudeau, that as time passes one of the greatest critical critiques will be made of the provinces is that the provinces did not rise to the opportunity when Canada was in need and when Canada was in difficulty;instead they blamed it on Central Canada, blamed it on the Bogey Man, blamed it on the Prime Minister of Canada, and all the Premiers of the ten provinces reneaqed on their responsibility of working together and putting the country forward. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please!

MR.HISCOCK: And if we have a low dollar in this country,the Premiers of the provinces have to accept that responsibility.And if we have high interest rates it is also the Premiers as well as the Cabinet members - MR.CHAIRMAN: MR.HISCOCK: MR.CHAJRMJ\N: MR.HISCOCK: accept it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! - of this Province - Order, plcusc! - Mr. Chairman, that have to Order! 3017

\ June 17, 1982 Tape 1425 PK - 1 M~. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order! A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL; Mr. Chairman, look,we are considering the estimates. The bon. gentleman is not being relevant, he is not speaking to the estimates. He is engaged in a general debate with respect to federal -provincial relationship. He is talking about the federal government and Alberta and what have you, So I bring it back. we are on the estimates of the Executive Council, Mr.

Chairman, and as interesting as what the bon. gentleman may have to say,even though it might be appropriate for Address in Reply speech, it is not appropriate, it is not relevant and it is not dealing with the business before the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M~. NEARY: To that point of order. M~, CHAIRMAN (Aylward): To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR, NE~RY: Mr. Chairman, I will submit that my colleague is relevant. Mr. Chairman, we are dealing with the Premier's salary.

The Premier has been travelling around this country from coast to coast making statements and we are now approving his salary, and we have a right to comment on his behaviour or his statement he is making both SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! What could be more relevant! -inside and outside of this House. As my bon. colleague says , Mr. Chairman, what could be more relevant than that. 3018

June 17, 1982 Tape 1425 PK - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : To that point of order, I wish to remind the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) that we are doing the estimates of the Premier's Office. And it is traditional in this House that debate is rather wide ranging, but I would ask the hon. member if he would direct his remarks to Head 302-01. MR. HISCOCK: I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

With regard to the Premier's Office , if we are going to pay the highest paid Premier in this country of ours, the have-not provinces, then I also feel that we have a right on this side, Her Majesty's loyal Opposition,to point out that if we are going to pay the Premier of this Province and the other provinces they have the right to be able to take what is sauce for the goose is sauce of the gander.

And that if we are in difficult times in this Province, and I will only deal with this part of our country, if we are in difficulties economically and socially and culturally in this Proivnce, we have to put it on the shoulders , of course, of this Premier that we have now, Mr. Peckford,and his Cabinet. All I am saying with regard to the amount of money that we are paying into the Executive Office as well as the Premier's Office 1 we are not getting our due return in the sense of productivity.

If we are going to overcome the problems in Baie Verte, if we are going to overcome the mining problems in Labrador City, if we are going to overcome the fishing problems in our fish plants across this Province, the construction industry, the social services for our people who are getting older all of the time, and having a freeze on institutional homes in this Province, if 3019

June 17, 1982 Tape 1426 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: we are going to provide future for our younger people who are now finding out that they cannot get jobs, that their future is now in question of having their lifestyles that they want through study, pursued and are having those questioned, if we are having this, Mr. Chairma~ then we need some leadership.

We need some leadership and we need some co-operation, and I would like to see,in this time of hard economic times- it is· not a recession, we are into a depression - and what we need to have is we need to have close co-operation between the Premier of this Province, the other premiers, and national government instead of blaming it on the Prime Minister or blaming it on anybody else. It is difficult and we need to find concrete solutions. We had the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) with regard to constructing ? new trades and fisheries college here in this Province, saying, 'Waiting for the money.

All we need is Ottawa to get off its butt and pass down the money.' The Minister of Labour and Manpower does not realize the deficit of this country as well as this Province is getting larger and larger all the time. And the ratings that are given by the international banking institutes of the provinces, Quebec now has dropped from an AA to an A, and other ones in these provinces are dropping. And instead of advocating to our people a period of restraint, and trying to get our people to lower expectation, here we are saying, "Send in the money. Send in the money. Spend more.

Spend more." And yet saying they are not to have taxes. Sure I want x number of other things in my district, sure I want x number of things here in this Province, but OLe thing I want over and above anything else and that is a sound economy, based on productivity and union between management, labour and government. But instead what we are seeing from this government, we are having no thought whatsoever for the national 3020

June 17, 1982 Tape 1426 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: issues,we are having no concern what- soever for the problems that are confronting this nation, and that we have to spend a seventy cent dollar 1 all we are saying is that•we want more, we want more, we want more. And it is only peanuts anyway what we are getting.' And as long as the other 3021

June 17, 1982, Tape 1427, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: provinces continue to take this attitude, that , it is a bottomless pit and that we can qet what we want out of the taxpayers of this country and of this Province, then, Mr. Chairman, I, for one, feel that this is the reason why we are in the economic situation that we are in in this country and Province now, that the sky is the limit, that you spend your way out of inflation, that you spend your way out of hard economic times.

And I think it is time to take the bull by the horns and tell our people you cannot have your expectations fulfilled, you cannot have all the things that you would like to have, there has to be a period of restraint for the next two or three years. If the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) had gotten up and said that to the people instead of juggling the books and saying he had a surplus on current account, I, for one, on this side would be applauding him and saying that he took a responsible attitude. But is he doing that? AN HON . MEMBER: No. MR. HISCOCK: And the member for St. John's West(Mr.

Barrett), probably one of the soundest businessmen in this House, I would expect a little bit more leadership from him, now that he is a parliamentary secretary, by his saying to our people in this Province, 'We are going beyond our means, we are spending beyond our means. We want more, yet we do not want an increase in taxes'. So, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the Premier's salary, and the Executive Council, I, for one, if the person has it, many people say that he should not have it, I, for one, feel that if he is going to have it, then he should get into the productivity element of our Province. 3022

June 17, 1982, Tape 1427, Page 2 -- apb MR . RISCOCK : But I would like, instead of hearing answers to questions in the National Press Club saying that the separatist movement will grow down here in this Province, I would like for him to take a more independent line, as he has done in many cases .

I do not always disagree with what the Premier has tried to show the rest of Canada, that we are a fiercely proud Province of Canada, nnd that we are very proud, we have our dignity and \-re want our share in this Canadian nation, but I feel that we can have it as an equal partner. nut the government here proceeds on the premise that we are not equal in the first place, and that what we are getting is only cap in hand . MR . CHAIRMAN(Aylward} : has elapsed . MR . HISCOCK : I would hope 3023 Order, please! The hon. member 's time In closing, Mr . Chairman ,

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1428 MR. HISCOCK: that this government and this Cabinet and this Premier will address the needs of this nation. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before the hon. SD - 1 member leaves the Chamber, I just want to give him a little bit of education. This is a publication or pamphlet,or whatever you want to call it ,put out by McLeod, Young, Weir Investment Counsellors and a financial house of great value, great worth and they reported on the Newfoundland Budget. I will just read a few parts of it. It says in the

summary, 'This was an aggressive budget aimed at stimulating the provincial economy and hastening the expected economic recovery while keeping financial requirements within manageable limits'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. DR. COLLINS: Further on, 'Spending measures are geared to preserving the present level of public services and stimulating economic activity in areas where the Province has a natural advantage. New or expanded spending initiatives are concentrated on transportation, municipal infrastructure, schools, fisheries, marine industries, foresty'and so on .

And then a little bit further on it says here in the conclusion, 'This Budget realistically addresses present financial and economic conditions in the Province of Newfoundland. In terms of government finances , these conditions include inflationary pressures on expenditures, the recessionary impact on a provincial revenue base,and substantial adjustments to provincial revenues from a shifting pattern of federal transfers. The government acknowledges the limits of its 3 0 21,

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1428 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: own ability to raise large amounts of additional income without damaging its revenue base.' MR. MARSI;ALL: DR. COLLINS: MR. MARSHALL: Criticize that. DR. COLLINS: Listen to that, will you. And so on. Criticize that will you,now.

And finally it says, 'It is also worth noting that the common thread of the provincial budgets which have been presented for fiscal 1983 is that even those provinces with far more plentiful financial resources have little realistic expectation in the short run of levering their economies very far off the basic course established by federal monetary and fiscal policy and the state of international commodity markets. Within this limited framework Newfoundland has made both prudent and productive use of the resources at its disposal.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the people who know - and I wish the hon. member had not left - the people who are in the know realize that this government has brought in a good budget. It has not fiddled any books,as the bon. member has suggested. We have brought in a budget that the financial people in the world markets feel is a very confident, very realistic, very well mana~ed budget and we are proud to have been part of it. SOME HON. HEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. CALLAN: a few words­ MR. BARRETT: Hear, hear. The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to have Good! 3025

'- June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1429 RA - l MR. W. CALLAN: Every time I stand, Mr.Chairman, it seems as though the member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) gets into the act. Mr. Chairman, when the CBC reported recently that our Premier was the most expensive Premier in Canada and they used some examples, they did not even scratch the surface in the examples that they gave, Mr. Chairman. And as we see in our budget, the Premier and his office cost us close to $1 million# close to $1 million a year- $940,000, I think it is, or, something like tha·t. Close to $1 million. I am quite certain, Mr.

Chairman, that there are many and better ways in which a lot of this money could be spent. Obviously,of course,! cannot help but refer to the continuence of the Markland Cottage Hospital as one example of where some of that money could be better spent,to maintain the facility that we have there. And when we get a meeting with the Premier and,of course, the Minister of Health(P.r, House) there is another question in relation to that. Well, ML Chairman, as I was saying,the CBC only touched the tip of the iceberg really. And just now, as an example, just now before the President of the Council(Mr.

Marshall) sat down, and of course other Cabinet ministers from time to time make reference to the same fact,that, you know, it was two or three months ago on April 6th that the people of this Province spoke, and I remember one qentleman on the other side the other day saying that 60 per cent of the people in the Province~ ~~11 actually, of course, everybody knows that it was not 60 per cent of the people in the Province, it was only 60 per cent of the people who actually got out to vote. And everybody knows 3026

June 17, 1982 Tape No . 1429 RA - 2 MR . CALLAN : again that the vast majority of the Tory votes came from St . John's and surrounding areas . So there were large numbers of people around rural Ne\o~foundland, 35 per cent of them, who did not vote for the Premier and his party. But the point made just now by the Deputy Premier.who is now leaving , that the people in Newfoundland voted fo r the continuence of the fight, Mr. Chairman, any ­ body with any common sense at all realizes that that is not the case. You see , 3027

.June 17, 1982 'l'ape No. :1430 MJ - l MR. W. CALLAN: ---- the election was not fought at all on the issue. It started out as the issue,but then the Premier, not wanting to trust to that alone, dragged in all kinds of other issues. He dragged a budget- not a budget, he dragged out all the goodies in the budget, 3nnounced them over a three week period as the campaign progressed, All of the taxes and so on, all that, of course, was forgotten.

On an open line programme in Corner Brook when the Premier was asked about the budget,he completely side-stepped and evaded the question by saying to the open line caller, 'Well, perhaps I will not be Premier and perhaps whoever else is Premier will bring out a budget.' He completely side-stepped it. Arrogant, arrogant~ .. ~nd of course, on the infamous debate that we saw on television involving the three party leaders you know, we had some people.by the way,brought in from the Mainland, I think. One of the people involved in that debate, a doctor So-and-So.

You that good doctor in his wisdom- not a medical doctor,obviously, a doctor of philosophy or something or other- but this good doctor in his wisdom asked the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. L. Stirling) about a bud~et. llo did not ask the Premier, the obvious one to ask, you know, about the budget. But even when the Leader of the Opposition said, 'Well, it seems rather strange to me for you to be asking me about the budget.

You know, we are not the people in power that should be asking the Premier.' And even in a sideways fashion in that infamous debate, even when the question was partially put to the Premier, again he completely side- stepped it, about the increases in taxes and so on, of what was going to be in the budget. So the issue, the election campaign that culminated on April 6th, Mr. Chairman, was not fouaht on the issue that the President of the Council (Mr. W. Marshall) says it was fouqht on. It was fought on a dozen and one things, 3028

June 17, 1982 'l'ape No . 1430 MJ - 2 t-1R . W • CALLAN : ~nd to get around to the point that I started out to make, Mr . Chairman, about the Premier being the most expensive in Canada , that was not mentioned in the CBC report. Everybody in Newfoundland knows that there was no need for an election and if the Premier really wanted to find out whether the ?Opulace or the voters or whatever in this Province agreed with him in his continued fight, then obviously the Premier loJOUld of held a referendum,which quite obviously would have been far , far- cheaper-, millions or do11 ,1rs cheaper a the running orf of a provincial qcneral cJcclion , just t1~0 and a half 3029

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1431 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: years into the Premier's term- not even halfway through his term. MR. ANDRE'"lS: He still did not lose the election or have you forgotton that? MR.CALLAN: I am contradicting what the President of the Council had to say in his remarks. Let us put that to bed, let us put that to sleep, because it is nonsense, it is not true. The election was fought on many and varied issued, f1R. NEARY: The re~·Jards for the people dovm in Glemmod voting is you are going to spray rnatical on them now. MR.CALLAN: Perhaps the President of the Council is not aware.

I am aware because I am aware of the amount of time that the Premier spent in the district of Bellevue during that three week campaign. He spent more time in the district of Bellevue than he did in any other single district in the Province. And the sort of things that the Premier talked about in the district of Bellevue, Mr. Chairman, the sort of things that he talked about in the district of Bellevue in his private and public gatherings had nothing to do with the Premier's fight with Ottawa.

It had to do with the future of the cottage hospital at Markland and turning to his Tory candidate on stage and saying, 'You have half the money in your possession right now,do you not,for the cottage hospital in Markland?' The Tory candidate said, 'Oh, yes.' 'Well that is the difference between us and the Liberals,' You know, these were the sort of things , the con jobs, and the announcement of water and sewer projects , these were the sort of things, Mr. Chairman, that the election campaign was fought on. Getting back to the Premier's office, the Premier's 3030

June 17,1982 Tape No. 1431 ah-2 MR.CALLAN: salary and the salary of Cabot Martin,close to $60 nil1ion and all of the other salaries and so on. MR. _1\.NDRE\r·JS : MR. CALLAN: AN HON .MEMBER: it (Inaudible) MR.CALLAN: Sixty million? $56,000 or $60,000. $57,000. I was going to apply for Well you probably would not have gotten it but go ahead and apply anyway_ Mr. Chairman, from time to time. In the few remarks that I have made here, I have referred to the district of Bellevue and the fact that the Premier was born there and other famous and some of them not so famous characters.

Shannon Tweed is another example, of course. Everybody knows about her in the district of Bellevue,being born and raised there. But, Mr. Chairman, approximately one year ago, as a matter of fact it was about a month after the by-election in Bellevue last Spring,I wrote the Premier a letter and I asked the Premier in that letter, I said, Dear Mr. Premier, I referred to the fact that living in the district of Bellevue was the first baby to be born in Canada during our Centennial year, 1967. !! ~ ANDRE\JS: It had to be born somewhere. MR.CALLAN: That is right. But anyway that is not the point I am trying to make.

Andi am sure the minister of whatever it is now, very little actually­ he was the minister of very much before the 3031

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1432 IB-1 MR. CALI~N: department was split with the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Siruns). A charade, a facade, that is all it is because I would put it all under Justice. But anyway I referred to the fact that Canada's first Centennial baby, not Newfoundland's first Centennial baby but all of Canada, the first baby to be born in all of Canada during our Centennial year, 1967, was living and breathing and attending school in the district of Bellevue in my own horne town, Norman's Cove actually. MR. NEARY : What is her name? MR. CALLAN: Cynthia Thorne. I suggested to the Premier (Mr.

Peckford) here, I said, 'In view of the fact that nothing of a substantial nature was done for this girl who, of course, is now fifteen MR. NEARY: Is she the playmate of the year? MR. CALLAN: - and is almost ready to leave high school', I said, 'in view of the fact that nothing of a substantial nature or a lasting nature has been done for this girl, Canada's first Centennial baby'-I suggested that perhaps a scholarship fund could be set up.

I said, ' Perhaps a scholarship fund or a trust fund or whatever, you know, could be set up, $5,000 put into it this year and then another $1,000 until this girl reaches the age of twenty-one or something'. And, Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, please~ The hon. member's time has expired. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, my time has elapsed but I must say this before I sit down, the Premier answered in the negative,as was expected and referred to,'Joey should have done something for her, Why should I?. Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can get back to it some other time.

MR. ' CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. 3032

June 17, 1982 Tape No . 1432 IB-2 ~lR . MARSHALL: Well, Mr . Chairman, I suppose it is in vain really to get up and talk in the House about the reason why we are here . I would point out once again that we are consideri~g the estimates of the Executive Council and the expenditures, the total expenditures, in the Executive Council Department cover $7,880,000 . And we hear the purpose of this Committee is to ask questions with respect to the expenditures of these monies . As I emp has ize again, \4e have heard over and over again from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) and the members opposite that the estimates should come back into 3033

June 17, 198 2 Tape No. 1433 RA - 1 MR. MARSHALL: the House, into the full House. If there is ever a reason why all of the Estimates should not come back into the full House,the hon. gentleman there opposite has given us the reason today, yesterday and the last time this topic was discussed. They are not interested, T.hey are only interested, like the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) ,tn getting up and making the same tired points, over and over and over again with reapect to the Premier's salary.

The hon. member for Bellevue,all it constituted was a moaning and groaning and gnashing of teeth over his loss at the polls on April 6th and very weakly says, 'We should not have called the election', and a denial of the fact that it represented a tremendous mandate to this government with respect to its policies, all of its policies, the policies of the management of this Province as well as its policies in dealing with the federal government and other issues such as the offshore and other areas. But they are not interested in that, Mr.

Chairman, they are stuck on the Premiers' office, they have an obsession with the Premier - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! -·-- - MR. MARSHALL : Now, Mr. Chairman, I would ask for the protection of the Chair, I mean both sides of the House~ I would like to be able to speak without interruptions from either that side or this side. MR. CHAIRMAN(Dr.McNicholas): O:r:der, please! MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr. Chairman, they are not interested, all they are, they are on the same old tack that they have always been on, the kind of flinqinrr mnn . and what have you.

The Premier's salary, the Premier's staff they have debated it over and over. They are 3034

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1433 RA - 2 MR. MARSHALL: not interested in the Cabinet Secretariat that comes under this heading, Mr. Chairman, and which spends $1.6 million They are not interested in asking any quest­ ions about the Treasury Roard Secretariat, which snenns another S2.2 million. ~n~ that is an area where the llon. gentlerren there o•pposite they do not want to ask salaries on, becaus .e what the Treasury Board of this Province does is the Treasury Board supervises the expenditures of money to assure that they are contained within the budget and that they are not overspent .

Jltnd they do an excellent job and they have done an excellent job, Mr. Chairman, as evidenced by the results last year. And once again I repeat, once again for the hon. gentlemen there opposite, because I know they hate to hear it, remem­ ber duri~g the election they said we had to call an election because of tae budget, that there was going to be a great big deficit, there was going to be hundreds of millions of dollars , they were telling the people, of a deficit on current account. And what happened'Z T.here was no deficit on current account, Mr. Chairman, there was a surplus on current account.

And I say again to the hon. member that this was the only province in Eastern Canada that has a surplus on current account,and one of the reasons for it has been the management of the government.l\nd the administrative organ that has helped us and assisted us in this has been the Treasury Board Secretariat. So, make no wonder, Mr. ehairman, that they are not interested in talking about expenditures and money in that area because they would have mud all over their face. 3035

June 17, 1982 Tape 1434 PK - l MR. MARSHALL: Another area that is here involving an expenditure of $2, 100,000 is the Department, under the Executive Council,of Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat. Now they do not want to talk about that either, Mr. Chairman. This is a very effective and powerful and credible group of people that has been built up in this administration which has assisted us greatly in our inter­ governmental relationships. And in particular over the past year they have been very much involved in the matters of the offshore. And they have assisted us. Mr.

Abery who is the Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, has been Chairman of the Negotiating Committee. SOME liON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: But the hon. gentlemen do not want to get into that. They are afraid to touch this issue at all. They do not wantto.

Their only contribution to the people of Newfoundland with respect to that,as I said before, is to take a churlish, dogish, lap-dogish attitude towards Ottawa and to call anybody who stands up for Newfoundland and stands up for the rights of Newfoundland anti-Confederates and separatists purely and simply because we are not willing to preside in another giveaway like the hon. gentlemen were responsible for.

There are other areas here as well under Executive Council~ The Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women,that was established by this administration, and the Offshore Petroleum Impact Committees that are working. But no,they are not interested in that. They are not interested in getting up and debating the Heads of Expenditures. And this is the crowd, Mr. Chairman, that wants the estimates brought back into the House. Can you imagine what a fruitful period of seventy­ five hours that would be spent in the main Committee,like it was spent sometime in years gone past,of just listening to 3036

June 17, 1982 Tape 1434 PK - 2 MR • MARSHALL: a diatribe of irrelevancy, mud slinging and, you know, insults back and forth, and personal attacks on people-which the bon. gentlemen are expert in. So what a waste of time, Mr. Chairman. Here we are , we are on Execu tive Council what questions come up? There have been no questions to which the government has had to respond . l<le have approximately, I believe, three hours or a little bit less than three hours,to spend on the main estimates . At the end of the time you can predict the member for LaPoile (Mr .

Neary) will be on the air shouting and gnas hing his teeth that there was not an exa minat ion of the estimates. Well the reason why there was not an examination of the estimates is because the han. gentlemen have not asked any questions . '!'hey do not want to ask any questions. They do not want to get the answers, but we are eager to answer questions , Mr. Chairman. But the reasons why they will not ask any is because,as I say,they will get embarrassed . They will be embarrassed with the answers that they get. Because we are not afraid of questions. We want to answer them . And every question, Mr.

Chairman, will show how good and how well this Provin=e is being managed despite the meager resources it has, despite the actions of Ottawa in trying to deprive us from our rights on the offshore and transmission of electrical power, 3037

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1435 SD - l MR. MARSHALL: despite the efforts of the hon.gentlemen there opposite - and I use 'gentlemen' ininverted ~ommas because I must in order to support them - and despite all these factors, despite it being the poorest Province in Canada, we are the only Province in Eastern Canada, as I say, that have come into, and presented before our Legislature a balanced budget. And that is some feat, Mr. Chairman, but it is one that the hon. gentlemen want to stay away from. There are two reasons why they cannot ask constructive questions; number one, Mr.

Chairman, they know they will be embarrassed by the answers from constructive questions; but, number two, is they are incapable of asking them anyway, Because their type of leadership and the way that the hon. gentlemen operate is to get up and throw slurs like anti-Confederate, and how much a house is costing and how much electricity is costing in a house, that has all been gone over and it has all been stated and it is all out front in the public and we make no apologies for it in any way at all. We think it is money well spent. SOt.ffi HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR.

MARSHALL: Now why do not the hon. gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, get down to the nitty-gritty of the situation, of the proceedings we have here( Why do they not ask us question? Perhaps if they asked us a few questions - as good as we are we do not presume to be perfect. I will not say what was in my mind about it AN HON. MEMBER: We know. MR. MARSHALL: But the situation is, Mr. Chairman, we might pick up some areas where we could save more money. If we possibly could we would; we would benefit from it. But for Heaven's sake why not make the investigation or the examination into the main estimates 3038

June 17, 1982 Tape no. 1435 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: in the committee of the House more constructive. And the only way it can be made constructive, Mr. Chairman, is if C• >nstructi ve questions are asked. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Chairman . The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, of course, the hon. gentleman would like for us to change the subject. We all know why the han. member would like for us to change the topic. Of course, the hon, gentleman would like to get us off the Premier's salary and get us on to something else. Mr.

Chairman, the han. gentleman is not going to succeed until we get some answers about whether or not the Premier is announcing government policy, the philosphy of the administration, when he is out making these anti-Confederate statements. We are talking about the most expensive Premier in Canada and we want to find out, Mr. Chairman, if these anti­ Confederate statements are santioned by han. members opposite. And, Mr.

Chairman, it is interesting to note that while we are debating the Premier's salary and all the fringe benefits he is getting - the house and the body­ guards and the chain linked fences and a private dining room and helicopters and airplanes and chauffeurs and chamber maids and gardners, Mr. Chairman- while he is getting all of t~at we would like to know why he is not here in the House to defend his estimates. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Why does he prop the han. gentleman up to defend his estimates? And, Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman 3039

June 17, 1982, Tape 1436, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: need not get up and say, 'Well, the Premier is out of the Province on government business'. This is not an urgent matter, we could hold the estimates over until the Premier gets back in his seat. We could hold the estimates of the Premier's Office until he returns to his seat in the House, but, no, Mr. Chairman, the game plan is to get the estimates over before the hon. gentleman returns.

Because he is in a manic, depressive state and they are afraid that he may become violent in the House if we put hard questions to him, his arms waving and his eyes popping out of his head, Mr. Chairman. He is afraid that the Premier might go berserk if he is sitting in his seat while we are raising these matters. So he delegates the ultimate in nastiness in the House to get up and defend him.

And the hon. gentleman will get up in a few minutes and he will say, 'Well, the Premier, it is urgent, he had to go away and speak to the National Press Gallery, he had to go up and make these anti-Confederate remarks that he made'. That is what the hon. gentleman will tell us. And the answer to that is, in case anybody has any doubts about it, is that we do not have to do these estimates today, the hon. gentleman could call some other Order of Business. We could wait for the Premier to return to his seat and then we could have a go at it.

The only thing is we would not want to drive him to suicide or anything, Mr. Chairman. MR. LUSH: He is already paranoid. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is already paranoid and in a manic depressive state, we would not want to drive him any further. He swings high and he swings low. One day in this House he is completely down, the next day he is up. MR. BAIRD: You are always down. 3 0 '· (l

June 17, 1982, Tape 1436, Page 2 -- apb MR . NEARY : The hon . gentleman is in a manic state of mind . And the hon . gentleman can laugh , because the hon . gentleman knows what I am saying is a true description of the hon . the Premier . Now, ~lr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that we are doing the Premier 's salary , we are questioning the Premier's behaviour and his motives and his attitude toward Canada and toward Confederation , and we have every right to do that under the Premier's salary, and the hon . gentleman is not go ing to sidetrack us off on to something else . And , Mr .

Chairman , as a matter of record, when we did ask specific que stions of the hon . ge ntleman we did not get the ans wer s. So we may as well spend the ne xt couple or three hours on try ing to drag some information about the Premie r out of these two o r three hours th at we have left . MR . CARTER : ques tions . MR . NEARY : \llell , whv do von I"'Ot ask some good Yes, we are asking some good ques Lions, t-lr . ChaiJ'mcln . We would like to clsk some quest ions about the Premier 's battle with the CBC . MR . STAGG : \lfuat about your own battle with the CBC? MR . RIDEOUT : MR . ST AGG : ?-1R .

NE ARY : 3041 Hhen is that siege coming? Are you a big fa n of CBC? We would like to ask ,

,;;_, June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1437 MLeP - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Hr. C~airman, if the han . Premier has yet apoloqized to the press, to the media of this Province? Lias he hud a chanqc of heart? Has he decided to apologize to the CBC and members of the press gallery who were forced to take the unprecedented step of running an ad in the newspaper to show the people of this Province how they were being dealt with by the Premier of this Province, where he '•Tas trying to edit and monitor the coverage of news in this Provinre? And, Mr.

Chairman, we hear remarks made, day in and day out,about a former, former Premier of this Province. Well, that former, former Premier-or even Mr. ,Lesage when he was up in the Province of Quebec,or Mr. Bourassa-never stooped that low, where he tried to edit and monitor and manage the news coverage in thic; "rovincc;. So we are trying to find out, Mr. Chairman, and the 1 •rcmier is not in his seat to answer, we are trying to find out if the Premier is willinq to change his mind on this dangerous precedent that he has created by feuding \~ith 't 1v= :Jress.

A.nd perhaps the han. gentleman who is filling in for the Premier would like to expound on that matter and tell us how far the Premier is willing to qo to get his own way in his matter. And,~r. Chairman, perhaps the han. gentleman can tell us if the Prewier has dealt adequately with the Minister of Fisheries( Mr. Morgan), if he has been properly chastised for his attack on the CBC's Fishermen's Broadcast,which is one of the most informative and -- ------- - popular programmes on the air, and the han. gentlemen chastised the Fishermen's Broadcast last week, MR. STAGG: Relevancy, !1r. Chairman. MR.

NEARY: Yes, it is relevent. And then low and behold we are told by the CBC Fishermen's Broadcast that the reason they could not qet information from the minister's department was that the minister had issued instructions to his 304?.

\ June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1437 MLeP-2 MR. NEARY: official that they \>'ere to have nothing to do ~~ith the Fisi1ermen 1 s Broadcast. And the minister ----------------------' himself, lvho said that he could not get any coverage on the Fishermen 1 s 3roadcast, 1·1as told that he appeared on-in less than eighteen months he was on thirty-nine times. AN. HON. MEMBER: You were on more than that. HR. NEJI.RY: And this has been documented, Mr. Chairman, and published, and therefore the alleqations made by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. 1>1o.rgan) '"ere false and misleading and the Premier should have dealt with the minister accor<.linqly. 3043

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1438 IB-1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is becoming very clear in this House and in this Province that the Liberals stand for Canada, stand for Confederation and that the Tories are against Canada and against Confederation. Mr. Chairman, that is the long and short of it and the han. gentleman now who - MR. STAGG: -- - . MR. TOBIN: of that party. MR. NEARY: You think the Liberal Party (inaudible)? ~~~ Liberal Party,you should be ashamed Mr.

Chairman, we are for Confederation on this side of the House, we are for Canada, we are good Cana~ians. l~n. gentlemen on that side of the House are against Canada, are anti-Confederate. Mr. Chairman, they are anti-Confederate, anti-Canadian and they are aa'inst everything that Canada stands for. And !challenged the hon. gentleman there a few moments ago, to get up and say to the House and say to the people of this Province and of this great country of ours, 'I am a Canadian. I am a loyal and faithful and dedicated Canadian and wherever I go in the world I am proud to say that I am a Canadian', Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. AYLWARD) : nrder, please! Order! MR. NEARY: Vive Le Cunada. Mr. Chairman, I am challenging the hon. gentleman - look at him over there, he has not got the courage to stand in this House and say, 'I am a Canadian. I am proud to be a Canadian. Wherever I go in the world I am proud to say I am a Canadian'. The han. gentleman could not say that. The hon. gentleman could not bring himself to say that, Mr. Chairman. He is afraid he might choke if he said that he is such an anti-Confederate. And his boss going around preaching separatism throughout Canada, Mr.

Chairman. 3 n '~ 4

June 17 , 1982 Tape No . 1438 IB -2 MR. NEARY : Mr . Chairman , there are a whole score of ant .i-Canadians . MR . CllAIRt-1AN (AYLI" iARD) : Order, please ! The hon . member 's time has elapsed . MR . NEARY : Oh, well I will come back again because I wan t to talk about the pictures, the colored pictures . MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon . President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL : Now , wh at is all this again , I just say very calmly and very dispassionately , Mr. Chairman, what has all that got to do with the expenditure of publ ic funds .

What has the perceived differences that the Premier has with any branch of the press , what has that got to ~o with the expend itures of public funds? Absolutely 3045

,.,. June 17, 1982 Tape 1439 •rM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: nothing. '~rhat has the perceived statements with respect to one branch of the press and the Minister of Fisheries have to do with this? Absolutely nothing. He asked whether the Premier has diciplined and told the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) not to make statements. The Premier is not in the habit of telling ministers what they may say and what they may not say. I do remember though, I think, Mr.

Chairman, unless my memory is failing, and it maybe after hearing the han. gentleman, God knows anything can fail after hearing the hon. gentleman speak for ten minutes, but it seems to me that I do remember there was an occasion when there was a minister who sat in this House who made an attack once on CBC and his boss at the time, drew him into line and he got up and he had to bow down. MR. STAGG: What did he say to the CBC? MR MARSHALL: I do not remember what it was, but I will just tell it because the hon. gentleman obviously does not understand the way things work.

The way things used to work then, in those days, the then boss, or the then Premier would tell the minister, ' You must do' and he did. And he demonstrated he did. And that is not the way it works here. I would tell the hon. gentleman, in response to his question as to whether you would get up and sing the praises that they want to sing. I would certainly be prepared to get ur and say that "Yes, I am a good Canadian" and all that, but, I mean, I will also be able to say with pride,and he cannot, that I am not a toadie. I am not a toadie, Mr. Chairman, and I am not a lap'dog to Ottawa.

What we are doing, we are Canadians, and I say it over and over again, we are standing on our own two feet and we are asserting the legitimate rights of the people of this Province. Why does the han. gentleman not deal with things specificly when he calls? Does he call being anti­ Canadian the fact that we take objection to the 3046

June 17, 1982 Tape 1439 TM - 2 MR . MARSHALL : Federal Governmenf · saying to us that 'You must negotiate inhe ·rent rights before you are to get a power corridor'? Does be considerate it to be anti -Canadian t~at •·1e should indicate to the Federal Government that wh en ;vu are doing that you are puttinq us in an unequal position to Quebec in any perceived neqot­ iations, that ~at you are doing, like if you take a water leve l, you are putting Quebec above the water and you are putting us under the water level , and it is very difficult for drowning men to negotiate or to say anything?

Because that is what they are doing . Why does the hon . gentleman not get up and comment on that? Docs he look Mt a stand like that as be.:.ng anti-Canadian? Does he lools at us as bei 1•11 anti -Canadian because we say that the offshore resources out t~ere belong to the people of Newfoundland, because we make a proposal that there is to be joint manaqement of these resources with three provincial, three federal , and one independent chairman?

Is it anti-Canadian to say to the Federal Gover nment 'No .we are not going to stand for you sitting there and taking full control , having three of the federal , t<-'o of the provincial, with the federal government having an over ride , 1-'itb what we know will happen with respect to it ;11l . the iob s will go to the Eastern shore of Quebec, not even to Halifax: 3047

June 17, 1982 Tape J440 JC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: nnd the residue will go to Halifax, and none here, is that anti-Canadian? Is it anti-Canadian, Mr. Chairman, for us to get up on the offshore issue and say to the federal government that we want the same income split as was obtained by the Province of Alberta before it became a have Province?

Until such time as our annual incomes are equal to the rest of Canada, until our employment level is equal to the rest of Canada, until our taxation level is equal to the rest of Canada, our infrastructure,our schools, our children are able to have schools and health facilities e0uaJ to the rest of Canada, is that anti-Canadian, Mr.Chairman? Indeed it is not.

But what I suggest to you is lap doggish, is a group of people who purport to represent the interests of the Province of Newfoundland, whether in the Parliament of Canada or here opposite, who say to the federal government, 'Yes, anything that you want, it does not matter, we will support you come hell or high water. perhaps you might give us a iob sometime when we retire or get defeated from politics. But to hell with the jobs for the populous of the people of Newfoundland, we will continue to support you'. 'I' hat is not being Canadian, Mr. Chairman, that is being lap ·ioggish and it is beinq selfish.

It is the same way, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the revenue sharing. The han. gentlemen there opposite are prepared to to go along with the Nova Scotian agreement which will yield us not even, at the present rate of our own budget. one quarter of our budget each year. What is our budget? Does our budget nearly cover the needs of the people of this Province? This government does not pretend it does, Hr. Chairman. So what they are doing is agreeing once more 3048

June 17, 1982 Tape 1440 JC - 2 MR . MARSHALL : to the same type of agreement . a pathetic amount of money for that huge resource , to keep us on equalizatio~ gayments for the rest of our lives, to give us a fixed payment like in term 29, t.,rhich in a numb".lr of years could be meaningless .

Why do not the hon . gentlemen , instead of trying to colour things and calliny us anti ­ Confererates and separatists, because the people of this Province do not accept it, you sh ould realize the people of the Province did not accept it on April 6, 1982, our policies are no different now then they were then . why do not the hon . <JL'ntlcrncn Lherc oppc>si.tc , insLcatl or l.ryinq to paint us as anti-Confederates , which \oJ C arc not anc.J .:~s separati sts which we ar e not, t·lhy cln they not join together with us in our stand? 30~9

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1441 MH. MARSHALL: 'Oh, yes,' they will say, together.' What is the type of support they gave? PS - l 'we did join They gave support with respect to that resolution calling on the federal government to negotiate on the basis set forth by the government of Newfoundland, they supported it unanimously. For that we would give them full marks, but what happened here afterwards? And this is the example of what happens to all toadies, Mr. Chairman, to all lap dogs. What happened to them is that they put the screws on them from Ottawa, because you see the way they are retrenching day by day by day.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) at one stage, when he had a great spurt of nationalism, he said that you can not trust Mr. Lalonde as far as you can throw him - those were his words not mine - but now, right to the stage where we see a couple of days ago he becomes the messenger of Mr. Lalonde, brinqing his little memos back and forth to the minister of Quebec while, in the meantime, Mr. Lalonde and Mr. Duhaime, the federal government and the government of Quebec are putting the blocks to the people of this Province, and the hon. gentlemen there opposite know it as well as we do.

We do not perceive that, Mr. Chairman, as being anti-Confederate, we perceive that as being pro-Newfoundland just as well as an Albertan with the same issues before him would consider himself pro-Albertan or pro-Ontarian, but at the same time we are all pro-Canada as well. Our only problem, Mr. Chairman, is we feel that the control in Canada should not repose in Quebec City, Ottawa or in Toronto, that the control of Canada should belong to all of Canada as a whole and not just to those few plac~s.

And the hon. gentlemen there opposite can moan and howl all they want to, but the facts are there for them to see, we have seen the corridor denied to us once again, and make no mistake it is denied to us, we have seen ourselves put in am unequal position with the province of Quebec, we have seen Rene Levesque get up in the National Assembly in Quebec and say, about ten days before this announcement was made, 'The government of this Province is going to have to negotiate, and they will have to negotiate 3050

June 17 , 1982 Tape No . 1441 PS - 2 MR • MARSHALL : sooner then they think . Now , ·there can be no other i~terpretation of that than Mr . Lalonde, Mr . Duhaime , Mr . Levesque, Mr . Trudeau, and whoever were all in cahoots together, were all colluding together with respect to this matter to dep rive us of our rights . We arc ready to talk to anyone in Confederation . We are ready to talk to the federal government on matters of the offshore . Rnt t~ey will not talk to us, i~stead, they tried to sneak in through the back door and pull it away from us in Court . We are ready to talk at any given time to Quebec on any mutters a(fecting 3051

June 17, 1982 Tape No. 1442 IB-1 MR. MARSHALL: us with one exception, we are not going to be hel~ up to the tender mercies of Quebec once more and have the determining of whether we have equality in Canada depending on the convenience of the Province of Quebec. Not on your life, Mr. Chairman. That miqht be acceptable to the hon. gentlemen there opposite.

And the reason why it is acceptable to the hon. gentlemen there opposite is because they are leaderless, they are shallow and they have to take their leadership from Ottawa, And they take their leadership from Ottawa,from the central government and there is no leadership of the Liberal Partv in this Province. All they can do is follow like churlish, snivelling little lap dogs the will of Ottawa. And the will of Ottawa at this particular time is against the Province of Newfoundland. It will change, Mr. Chairman, it will change.

Just as it is against Alberta and it is against other provinces it is against us as well. That will change and it will change with a change of government. But it will be no thanks to the hon. gentlemen there opposite. They should hang their heads in shame.When they go out to conferences outside I do hope that they do not engage in bragging about the fact that they are representatives of Newfoundland. They might be representatives of Newfoundland but they are not representing the interests of Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, and they show it again md again and again.

And what they are trying to do now,they are trying to paint a gre0~ fog over all of us and say we are anti-Confederates and separatists. It did not work in the election, it is not going to work the next time. If they do not watch it there will be a - MR. DINN: Let them keep it up. MR. MARSHALL: But fnr ~he fact that the Opposition would be decimated and there would be nobody over there ,we should call another election. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3052

June 17, 1082 Tape No. 1442 IB-2 MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Because we kno1·1 what would happen. They are a disgrace, Mr. Chairman, to democratic representation in any province or any country. SOME HON . MEMBE~S : MR. CHAIRMAN: Hear, hear! Order, please! It being Thursday, five o'clock it is my duty to announce that there is one item fordebate in the Late Show today. It is a question from the hon. member for Bellevu·e (Mr. Callan) to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) concerning the ninety day eligibility period