December

17, 1997

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 53

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, in conjunction with my colleague, the Minister

of Industry, Trade and Technology, I wish to advise hon. members of government's

intention to conduct a public consultation exercise regarding our provincial

Public Tender Act.

As hon. members know, our Public Tender Act provides for a

competitive bidding process in which the lowest-priced product, or service, is

awarded the public tender for a government-funded endeavour. Newfoundland and

Labrador's Public Tender Act is amongst the most stringent in all levels of

government in Canada. It is an essential piece of legislation, ensuring that

government contracts and purchases are dispensed in a fair and equitable manner,

while achieving maximum cost-effectiveness for the public purse.

It should seek the best deal, while remaining true to the

public trust. The world of business, Mr. Speaker, is not a static environment.

As we have seen in recent years, new technology has taken on a much more

prominent role in transactions; trade barriers go down, sometimes they go up,

and partnerships between government and the private sector are producing some

very favourable results.

While our Public Tender Act must encourage healthy bidding

and ensure the best deal for the public, it can also be a nurturing factor for

competitive businesses here in Newfoundland and Labrador. If there are

provisions in the current Public Tender Act which are impeding Newfoundland and

Labrador companies from flourishing and achieving a greater degree of success

here at home, they should be reviewed.

Early in the New Year, we will write to key industry

associations to advise them of a briefing session on current provisions of the

legislation. Following these meetings, we will ask that these associations

consult further with their members and provide written submissions to my

department, which is responsible for the administration of the Public Tender

Act. We will also brief all members of the House of Assembly, and ask that they

encourage their business constituents to participate in this process by

providing written submissions.

As well, members of the public with an interest in this

legislation are encouraged to write to me directly.

It is our intention to conclude the consultation and review

process by the end of March 1998.

Mr. Speaker, this is an open-minded endeavour, and while we

are always open to suggestions from the private sector regarding legislative

amendments that are fair and reasonable, this will be a more structured setting

in which they can put forward their views.

Our consultation process my indeed determine that our current

Public Tender Act is as fair and equitable as possible, and is in keeping with

the evolving business realities. Or it may well reveal hurdles that can be

overcome without comprising the integrity of the legislation.

Mr. Speaker, it is prudent to check the status of any

legislation which has, on a daily basis, significant business ramifications for

our Province.

It is our intention to produce a document which maximizes

opportunities for big and small companies throughout this Province, while

ensuring the integrity and key principles of our provincial public tender

process are retained.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government should be ashamed of their action in

following the Public Tender Act that we have today. We have Trans City, we have

- you name it - the Murray Premises, there are dozens of instances, where they

tried to circumvent the Public Tender Act. They did it with a bill here in the

House on Kodak that fell through because it was faulty. They are using every

avenue to circumvent it.

This government has been shamed into it, Mr. Speaker. The

Member for St. John's South had to take it on himself to canvass local

businesses to see how they can work within the confines of a Public Tender Act

to get work for businesses operating in this Province.

We have had instances in the past, I say to the minister, a

company in my district that produced a top quality window and the specs that

this government called for was a window made in Germany, that had an agent in

another province.

This government has prevented local businesses from being

able to compete on an equal footing by being selective in what they put into a

tender bid. There are avenues to help local businesses, I say to this

government, and you have failed miserably in doing that. And now, because the

Member for St. John's South is dealing with businesses and has had a forum

around this Province in different areas, to solicit business input in doing

this, the minister is shamed into coming into the House with a statement.

You should give him a budget to go out and do your job around

this Province. You have failed to do it yourselves, so get with it now and do

something for businesses in this Province before we start sending another flurry

of thousands of people to the Mainland looking for jobs.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the hon. Pierre

Pettigrew, Minister of Human Resources Development for Canada, made a

significant announcement regarding the TAGS program. The announcement comprised

three main points.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: What is Jim, your campaign manager? Only

somebody as suspicious as Jim Morgan could put that in your mind.

Firstly, he announced that the current EI attachment rules,

which were due to expire on December 31 - as I told the Member for Bonavista

South the other day, I was 95 per cent sure would have happened - have been

extended until the end of the TAGS program. This means that TAGS recipients will

be eligible for Employment Insurance benefits on the basis that they are

currently active within the labour market. This is a very fair approach, and one

which our Province has strongly advocated.

Secondly, it was indicated that Mr. Eugene Harrigan will be

reporting on his findings related to TAGS in early January, and that his report

would be made public. Mr. Harrigan has been appointed by HRDC -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Do not listen to him, `Roger'.

- to report on the impact of the TAGS program and the

implications of its pending termination for the Atlantic region.

Finally, and most importantly, Mr. Pettigrew announced that

the Federal Government will be continuing the TAGS program until the end of

August, 1998, rather than the previously scheduled termination date of May,

1998. Mr. Speaker, this is very encouraging and, I say, very important, in that

it provides adequate time for the Federal Government to fully assess Mr.

Harrigan's report and that of MP George Baker and the Commons Standing Committee

on Fisheries and Oceans. In the interim, income benefits will continue for many

TAGS clients for an additional period of time. It also demonstrates that the

Federal Government is taking the TAGS issue very seriously.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that the reports from Mr. Harrigan and

Mr. Baker will clearly demonstrate the devastating impact that the groundfish

resource crisis has had on families and communities in Atlantic Canada, and most

especially in Newfoundland and Labrador. It will also be very evident to the

Federal Government that an appropriate replacement program for TAGS is

absolutely essential to the continued viability of our coastal communities and

regional economies.

Yesterday's announcement by the federal Minister of Human

Resources Development provides us with a measure of assurance that the Federal

Government is taking the necessary steps to properly address this continuing

crisis -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Hello, Jim.

- and in the words of the federal minister himself, "find a

forward-looking solution to the post TAGS situation."

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Morgan.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government and this minister have a way of creating a

bad-news story and then bringing it back to a half-way point and trying to make

a good-news story out of it.

Mr. Speaker, here is a situation whereby 18,000 people in

this Province lost a year's wages. Now, the government of the day is going to be

giving them back three months and this minister stands up and says what a

wonderful thing. There is a case before the courts now, Mr. Speaker, where those

18,000 people are looking to be reimbursed for a full year's salary and that's

the shame of this. They are bringing it about at a time when they know that they

would have problems with the fishermen in this particular Province. They are

bringing it back at a time when they know that if this particular program had

not been extended then I would fear that many people would be going fishing.

Many people will be going out there and doing what is right, Mr. Speaker, taking

the initiative to go out and feed their families. The labour force attachment

was a farce right from the very beginning. The TAGS program should have been

considered labour force attachment from 1994, 1995, right up to 1999. It is

another situation where people have to come back begging again. They have to

come back begging, Mr. Speaker, for a few pittances from Ottawa.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: I say shame on the government. Reinstate

the full year's salary and let the 18,000 people in this Province receive the

income they are supposed to.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, does he

have leave?

By leave.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, of course no one would object to

an additional three months lack of uncertainty about their future but the real

problem here is that the people who are involved, the 18,000 people who are

going to be cut off in May, in fact had a piece of paper giving them an

entitlement to TAGS until May of 1999. Now, Mr. Speaker, the government has

failed to address the full problem, failed to resolve the problems of the

original TAGS program and this government seems to be just cheering them on.

What we really need, Mr. Speaker, is a program to be overhauled, continued to

1999 and the other problems addressed for the future.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today were intended for the Premier but I will

ask them to the Minister of Environment and Labour.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I have to tell him that I have about

ten sets of questions backed up now. If we will ever get him here I might get a

whole Question Period some day.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: And the government's relentless move to end

restrictions on Sunday shopping has come as a complete surprise to business

groups, labour groups and to people generally across the Province. I have not

asked a question yet I say to the Minister of Justice. Let justice prevail, I

would say. With which people and which groups did the Premier and Minister of

Environment and Labour consult this fall who told them that the Shops' Closing

Act needed urgent changing, and will he table a list?

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader on a

point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows, he has

been told by the Speaker on a number of occasions, it is called the rule of

anticipation, I say to him. That if he is anticipating something that is on the

Order Paper, the question is out of order. This is on the Order Paper, and

therefore the hon. gentleman is out of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader to the

point of order.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I do have the Orders of the

Day. We do know that this is Wednesday. We know that the Orders of the Day today

have been announced in this House. They do include the private member's motion

put forward by my colleague for Bonavista South. In consultation with other

people who have been in this House, it comes from 409(12) of Beauchesne, page

121, and says: "`Questions should not anticipate a debate scheduled for the

day...'"Scheduled for the day.

Mr. Speaker, this happens to be Wednesday. The debate

scheduled for today is a private member's motion for Bonavista South. We contend

we are completely within the rules. Precedents in this House, and in other

legislatures, say that on a private member's day anything that is outside what

has been scheduled is permissible.

That would mean, of course, that we are well aware of the

thirty-five orders that are listed here, but they aren't scheduled for today. In

fact, the

schedule for today is contained in this paper, and of course it is

Motion No. 6 on the listing here by "Roger Fitzgerald (Bonavista South)."

We say here the definition of "the day" - because it says

"the day," it doesn't say any day, it says "the day" - and so therefore we say

the definition of "the day" is Wednesday, in this particular case, and it

happens to be December 17. Therefore we contend that the Government House

Leader's point of order is no point of order. The question should proceed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is that

the House is the master of its own fate. If we wanted to, we can

schedule

anything at any time. Therefore he is trying to anticipate something which may

or may not occur.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) you cannot take away Private

Members' Day from this House -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: - even though you may wish to. You cannot

do it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi to the point

of order.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Government House Leader is attempting to use a general

rule of the House in a very strict way to prevent any real questions and answers

on this period.

We have had, what might be called debate, Mr. Speaker, going

until 4:30 in the morning which has all been one-sided; the only people saying

anything was over here. Nobody has been answering any questions, nobody has been

required to answer any questions. At least in Question Period, Mr. Speaker, it

will be done in the light of day instead of at 4:00 a.m. and, Mr. Speaker, if

the rules of the House as interpreted by the Government House Leader were

interpreted, the only questions could be asked would be something of an urgent

nature.

Now we know that many of the questions asked in Question

Period are not urgent in the sense that if they are not asked at 2:00 o'clock on

a particular day, they will go away but I think, Mr. Speaker, the Government

House Leader is calling for you to make a ruling, and a very strict and narrow

ruling, that would prevent the proper exercise of this House to allow issues to

be debated and argued and the ministers to be accountable to the House of

Assembly and to the people of this Province for their actions.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order, the Chair is going to recess briefly

just to consult with the Table Officers

Recess

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order that the hon. the Government House

Leader raised, and referring to the

section of Beauchesne to which the

Opposition House Leader referred, Beauchesne , page 121, 409.(12), which

states that: "Questions should not anticipate a debate scheduled for the day,

but should be reserved for the debate."

In the short time that we had to research it, we have not

been able to find any precedent in the House to support what the hon. member has

said; however, the other sections of Beauchesne , I guess, lead us to

conclude that this is not as restrictive as the hon. Opposition House Leader has

indicated, and I refer hon. members to page 154, 512, paragraphs (1) and (2)

which say:

"

(1) The rule of anticipation, a rule which forbids

discussion of a matter standing on the Order Paper from being forestalled, is

dependent upon the same principle as that which forbids the same question from

being raised twice within the same session."

"

(2) The rule against anticipation is that a matter must not

be anticipated if it is contained in a more effective form of proceeding than

the proceeding by which it is sought to be anticipated, but it may be

anticipated if it is contained in an equally or less effective form."

Therefore, the hon. member's question is out of order.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is ridiculous. That is unbelievable.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it is with regret that we hear your decision. It

is also with regret that I challenge the decision of the Chair. We feel on this

side that the rules have been used to stifle the Question Period.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is challenging the Chair and there is a

motion for that. The hon. member should get to it.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, yes, there is.

We, on this side, want to quite simply put it to you that we,

today, regrettably, are challenging the ruling of the Chair on this particular

motion.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to uphold

the ruling of the Chair?

All those in favour, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, `nay'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

Motion carried.

AN HON. MEMBER: Division, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Division.

Division

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair will proceed with the vote and then get back to the

point of order.

(Inaudible) can call the vote.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Is it the pleasure of the House to uphold the ruling of the

Chair?

All those in favour, please rise.

CLERK: The hon. the Minister of Development and Rural

Renewal, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, the hon. the Minister of

Justice and Attorney General, Mr. Walsh, the hon. the Minister of Education, the

hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, Mr. Penney, Mr. Oldford,

the hon. the Minister of Health, the hon. the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment, the hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour, the hon. the

Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, the hon. the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation, the hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation, the hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands, Mr. Noel,

Mr. Wiseman, Mr. Andersen, Mr. Canning, Mr. Smith, Mr. Ramsay, Mr. Whelan, Ms M.

Hodder, Mr. Woodford, Mr. G. Reid, Ms Thistle, Mr. Sparrow.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, please rise.

CLERK: The Hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. H.

Hodder, Mr. Shelley, Mr. Jack Byrne, Mr. Edward Byrne, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. T.

Osborne, Mr. Ottenheimer, Mr. French, Ms S. Osborne, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Speaker, twenty-seven `ayes' and eleven `nays.'

MR. SPEAKER: I declare the Chair's ruling upheld.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader on a

point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I recognize that we have just put

a motion, and the Speaker's ruling was upheld.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. TULK: Well, I'm glad you finally got to it. I'm glad

the hon. gentleman finally got to it. At least those are two rules he has

learned about today. One is called the rule of anticipation; the other is called

appealing a Speaker's ruling in Question Period.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr. Speaker, if I could - I know, as I said, that we have

just put a motion appealing the rule of the Speaker during a ruling that he made

on oral questions.

MR. SULLIVAN: What kind of questions?

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman will be

quiet for a second, I will read the rule to him. He had it in front of him -

maybe he would like to read it clearly. Because what I am asking the Chair to do

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Yes, you are.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: What I am asking the Speaker to do

AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down, boy.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: What I am asking the Speaker to do - Standing

Order 31(6) clearly states: "The Speaker's rulings relating to", I say to the

hon. gentleman, "oral questions are not debatable or subject to appeal."

The Speaker, a few minutes ago in this House, ruled that the

hon. gentleman's question

AN HON. MEMBER: He is challenging the Chair.

MR. TULK: I am not challenging the Chair. I am asking for

clarification.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if I could continue. A few minutes

ago, the Speaker in this House ruled that the hon. gentleman's question was out

of order, and that is my opinion. We upheld the Speaker's ruling; it was a

proper ruling and should have been done.

MR. E. BYRNE: You raised the point.

MR. TULK: I raised the point, I say to the hon.

gentleman, as I am perfectly in order to do - that is far more than I can say

about your question.

MR. E. BYRNE: We will see about that.

MR. TULK: I would ask the Speaker to rule for us, if not

today, at some point in time, whether indeed that was a legitimate motion to put

before this House today, Mr. Speaker. I would ask you to rule on that motion

that was put by a person who would like to say: Parliament exists to serve only

us, the Opposition, and I am not going to abide by any rules that are in this

House or any rules that are in our Standing Orders or any rules that are

anywhere else!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will review what the hon. member has said and

report later.

It is now 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday -

MR. H. HODDER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition

House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, relative to oral Question

Period today, we view in Beauchesne, Paragraph 408 (1): "Such questions should:

(

a) be asked only in respect of matters of sufficient urgency and importance as

to require an immediate answer." We view the questions that we have asked today

fall into that particular category. While we respect your decision, Mr. Speaker,

and the rules that have been applied, we, on this side of the House, have great

regret as to what has happened in this House today. Question Period has been

stifled, debate has been shut off and we, on this side of this House, while we

will maintain one member in the House today we are leaving this Chamber in

protest.

AN HON. MEMBER: It is your day. It is your Private

Members' Day.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

Order, please!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

We are now into Orders of the Day, and today being Private

Members' Day, we now move to the resolution by the hon. the Member for Bonavista

South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to speak on behalf of the Agricultural

Association and the farmers, not only in the District of Bonavista South, Mr.

Speaker but right across this Province. Mr. Speaker, if I can find the Orders Of

The Day - Mr. Speaker, I cannot find it but the motion, the Private Members

resolution is very clear, the problems being experienced by farmers and by the

farming community in this Province today.

The farmers with whom I have met, mostly root crop farmers -

and I compliment the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods for taking time

to travel to the District of Bonavista South, to hold a meeting with those

people concerned just a few short weeks ago, when there was something like

twenty-two or twenty-three farmers showed up at a meeting to express to the

minister their concerns of what is happening with - in excess of 200,000 moose

that are inhabiting this Province today.

Mr. Speaker, what we find is, this particular predator was

introduced to Newfoundland back in 1878. I think one moose was brought over at

the time from Nova Scotia and then, a couple of short years after a cow and bull

were introduced here from New Brunswick, and the population has exploded from

just two moose, Mr. Speaker, to in excess of 200,000 moose in this Province

today.

When you look at the number of licences that are being issued

- last year I think it was approximately somewhere between 28,000 and 30,000, we

are finding that this particular species of animal is certainly increasing in

numbers very rapidly and as a result as they eat their normal food supply which

is wood, and I think if you check back the very name `moose', you will find it

is derived from the word `wood', Mr. Speaker, that those particular animals are

now going out and becoming very brave and taking

part in eating the delicacy of

our home-grown vegetables right here and especially in the Lethbridge area.

It was only a few short months ago that I had a call from a

farmer who is situated on the Trans-Canada Highway, and for those people who do

not venture as far as Lethbridge, Sparkes, Mr. Speaker, I think his home is in

Shearstown and this particular individual indicated that this year alone he has

had damages in excess of $28,000. In my particular area we have about ten root

crop farmers, in the Lethbridge - Bonavista area, major producers in this

Province, major employers employing in excess of 100 people, and we have,

although not in my district but bordering on my district, five dairy farmers.

Some of those farmers have sighted as many as nineteen moose at any one time out

in their fields, I say to members opposite.

The way those predators eat, they do not go into a cabbage

patch or turnip patch and just eat half-a-dozen turnips and move on. They go and

take a nibble, and they move on to another head of cabbage or another turnip,

and they could probably destroy thousands of dollars worth of crop in just one

night, in just one feeding. For the most part, those particular animals come out

at night, some time between dusk and dawn.

Mr. Speaker, farmers in my particular area at one time only

grew the rough vegetables, I suppose, if you would, the common vegetables. They

grew potatoes, they grew turnip, they grew cabbage and, for the most part, other

than for their own consumption, a few carrots and a few beet; that is all that

was grown. Now we find farmers in this Province are certainly expanding their

opportunities. They grow vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflowers, zucchini,

strawberries, raspberries, all delicacies for the moose population.

I was reading in a report that was brought forward by the

Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods just last year in response to the

Budget debate, and he indicated that farm cash receipts for 1996 are estimated

to be at the $70.8 million level. That is a major contributor to our economy,

employing hundreds of people.

What the farmers are asking for - the minister is suggesting

some kind of crop insurance. He is saying that maybe we can tie this in with a

problem that we are dealing with here with the moose population.

I believe something should be done in the meantime. I don't

think that we have to wait for our federal government to bring forward a crop

insurance policy in order to deal with the problem that the farmers are

experiencing with moose.

I think we can do that ourselves. When we look at the $200

million that is being taken by this Province with the sale of moose licences and

fish licences, when we look at in excess of $200 million being generated from

this particular resource, then I think we should be responsible and allow

farmers to be able to file the claim for the damage that this particular

predator causes, and be reimbursed.

The answer to it is to control the problem, to not have the

problem happen. If it doesn't happen then we don't have to compensate anybody.

There have been some suggestions brought forward to the Minister of Forest

Resources and Agrifoods where we can deal with this particular problem. One

suggestion, which was tried before - but it was tried in a way that I don't

think can work, because people were hesitant to allow it to work. Just a couple

of years ago we tried an early hunt in the farming area. What happened was there

wasn't a lot of interest shown because the hunters who would ordinarily take

part in that particular hunt found themselves faced with a situation whereby if

they weren't successful then they weren't allowed to hunt in the regular season.

I think this is a idea that should be pursued. I think we

should allow an early hunt. I know the minister is checking into this now. It

has to be done in such a way that people would be encouraged, they would be

allowed, to go and hunt. If they were unsuccessful, then all you would do is

allow them to go and take

part in the regular hunt at the regular time. Not go

and say: You have two weeks. If you don't kill your moose in those two weeks,

then you aren't allowed to take

part in the hunt, which in most areas lasts a

couple of months.

That should be changed. I think the minister is looking at

that. We don't have to go out and give any extra licences. We are talking about

the same number of licences. We are talking about the same number of animals

being taken. All we are doing is allowing a group of people to be able to go and

hunt a little earlier before the vegetables get ripe in order to solve the

problem around the periphery of their farmland. That is all we are asking to do.

Those particular animals, I am told, eat in excess of seventy

pounds of feed a day.

AN HON. MEMBER: What!

MR. FITZGERALD: An average size moose will eat seventy

pounds of feed a day. So, you can imagine how much crop is destroyed in farm

lands where you see as many as eighteen and nineteen moose on one farm, in one

field.

This is not the only area where we have this problem - right

here. This problem is not unique to Newfoundland. In other provinces in Eastern

Canada they have a similar problem with deer. Out West they have a similar

problem with waterfowl, but that is no reason why we should not move ahead and

try to solve our own problems right here. We can say -

AN HON. MEMBER: Kill all the moose.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, we are not saying kill all the moose;

and if the minister would talk to some of his own constituents and make himself

more familiar with what is happening in his own district, he will know full well

what they want, Mr. Speaker. What they are asking for - and they have tried to

solve the problem. They have gone out and have put up electric fences around

certain fields. They have invested, and government have taken

part in a program

with them, whereby they have made use of propane canons, where the moose would

come, and on certain times during the night the canon would explode and

hopefully would drive the moose away, and prevent them from coming back. The

animals get used to those things pretty fast. It is almost like going in the

woods where people are working with their chain-saws and tractors. It is not

uncommon once you are there for a while to go back and see the moose browsing

around right beside you. You cut down a tree and you see a moose come up and eat

the top off the tree. It is not uncommon, I say to members opposite. Anybody

that goes and takes

part in such activities will verify what I am saying.

Farmers have gone out and used electricity, have run electric

cords into their farm lands and put radios on, all night long, played loud

music, put up scare crows, all that, it does not work. It will work for a couple

of days, it will work for a couple of nights, and then the same old problem

returns.

Gods knows, Mr. Speaker, in this Province our farmers have

enough to contend with, without contending with a problem with a species of

animal that this very government themselves protect. God knows, when you look at

the barren land and when you look at the weather conditions that we experience

here, you will know that the farmers have enough hardship already. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, a lot of people do not realize that we have a farming industry in this

Province.

When you do some travelling around, Mr. Speaker, and somebody

asks you what the major industries are in your district and you talk about

fishing and you talk about forestry, they accept that, but when you mention

farms, root crops, dairy farms, people - they do not -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: That is right. People look at you like

you have two heads. It does not exist in Newfoundland. A farm is not supposed to

exist here. But I tell you, there are a lot of farmers in this Province who have

put a lot of hard work into developing farms and it is encouraging when you see

it passed down from one generation to another.

One particular farmer in my district was, just a couple of

years ago, recognized by the Atlantic Agricultural Association - was given an

award.

MR. EFFORD: He is a good Liberal, too.

MR. FITZGERALD: He probably is a good Liberal. He is a

good man, I do not know if he is a good Liberal. He is a good man, I can

guarantee you that. And his sons have taken over the farm, Peddle's Farm in

Lethbridge - and the Government House Leader knows him very well. His sons have

taken over the farm, he is - well, he is supposed to be retired; he has reached

the golden age of retirement, but he is still very active. Now, his grandson has

started a farm there. They are getting into greenhouse farming. He is growing

vegetables, set crops, set plants -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: He has it built already.

MR. TULK: Where?

MR. FITZGERALD: Right there in Lethbridge. He has two big

greenhouses out at what we call `the cut-off' there.

MR. TULK: Okay.

MR. FITZGERALD: As you leave Route 230, going out through

to Bloomfield. He has two big greenhouses there, Mr. Speaker, and a lot of

people go there to get their early cabbage plants, turnip plants, they go there

to buy their flowers. He and his wife have a good industry going there, and I

think just recently, this same farmer took over the abattoir in the area there.

And I believe it will work. I believe now - not for the first time, because it

has worked very well in the past, but it fell into some hard times there. We did

not have the right people operating that particular facility, but I think we

have the right person there now, and he is already after purchasing - reaching

some kind of an agreement with government whereby he is operating the facility,

and I firmly believe he will do very well there.

Mr. Speaker, the first thing somebody thinks about when you

look for compensation is abuse. That is the first thing that comes to mind. When

you talk about giving compensation to farmers or fishermen or some other group

of people out there, the first thing somebody thinks about is abuse. The farmers

will abuse it, the fishermen will abuse it. Mr. Speaker, that is not the case.

That is not the case I say to members opposite. If you are going to go farming

and if you have damage caused by moose, if you have damage caused by predators,

Mr. Speaker, it is not hard to estimate the amount of damage that is caused.

That same damaged crop will be there today and it will be there tomorrow. It

does not heal. There will not be a little scab appear and two days after it is

better so you can go and take it up and sell it. It is damaged as long as it is

in the ground.

We have agricultural people out there who go around regularly

visiting farms, helping farmers, accommodating farmers, Mr. Speaker, as much as

they possibly can. Those people can very easily go and estimate the amount of

damage that is caused - estimate the amount of damage, send in the claim, Mr.

Speaker, and let us take some money. Let us take part of that $200 million that

is being generated by this particular predator, by having some people to want to

go out and hunt, take

part in this particular sport. Let us take some of the

revenue that is generated and give it back to the farmers, to compensate them

for the damage that has been caused.

Down in Australia, they introduced - from my understanding,

and I stand to be corrected, at one time there were no rabbits in Australia. So

they introduced rabbits in Australia. They introduced them for sport, and then

found out that they were causing - well similar to the moose, I say to the

minister. They were introduced there and then they got to be a nuisance. They

got to be a real problem. Well, what did the government do in Australia? Do you

know what the government did in Australia? They built a fence right across the

continent.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: They built a fence right across the

continent of Australia and I think, Mr. Speaker, that we can control the moose

that we have in this Province. I am not suggesting that we go out and build

fences. I am not suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that we go out and kill off all the

moose. I am not suggesting any of that. I am suggesting first and foremost that

we compensate farmers for the loss that they have incurred. In doing that - the

problem and the concern can be addressed both at one time - in doing that then

let us look at ways and means of solving the problem. I do not think we are

going to be paying compensation year-in and year-out.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Has the hon. member been given leave?

MR. TULK: I will give him thirty seconds.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is speaking by leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, well I will have a chance to speak

again, so I say to the minister, I will sit down and let somebody else respond.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I want to speak to the hon.

gentleman's resolution. As a matter of fact, I want to speak in support of his

resolution, but before I do that, I wish to give the following notice of motion,

and I understand it is perfectly in order. It reads, Mr. Speaker: I give notice

that I will on tomorrow move, pursuant to Standing Order 50, that the debate on

Bill No. 48 entitled, "An Act To Amend The Shops' Closing Act No. 2", standing

in the name of the hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour shall not be

further adjourned and that further consideration of any resolution or

resolutions, clause or clauses,

section or sections,

schedule or schedules,

preamble or

preambles, title or titles or whatever else that might be related to

debate in Committee of the Whole House respecting Bill No. 48 shall be the first

business of the Committee when next called by the House and shall not be further

postponed.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the hobnailed boots.

MR. DECKER: That is a good motion, though it is too bad

about (inaudible). I like that motion you have on today, because they are

causing problems, there is no doubt about that.

MR. TULK: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to, if I might today -

this is a resolution which the hon. gentleman knows I have had a great deal of

dealings with, and my colleague, the person who has taken over the portfolio,

has also had a great deal of dealings with, and in many ways has considered, and

are considering, ways that we can maybe help the farmers in this Province.

Before I do that, and I think it is important, and I think it

is important that it go on the record of this House, that it be shown that the

hon. gentleman's colleagues - and I can hardly find the words to describe what

went on here today by the hon. Opposition House Leader. It is normal that if the

Speaker makes a wrong ruling, or if the Speaker in some way -

MR. FITZGERALD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: - has any thought of being prejudicial -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South on a

point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, we are discussing and we are

debating a private member's resolution here today. It has nothing to do with the

decision that was made by the Chair as it pertained to a motion that was put

forward here in this House. Nothing to do with it whatsoever and I ask this

Chair if they would call relevancy to this particular debate.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order?

MR. DECKER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Oh, go ahead.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and

Attorney General.

AN HON. MEMBER: My colleague can barely contain himself.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I find

it difficult to contain myself, yes. Because what we saw here today is the

highest insult that anyone can direct at a Speaker.

MR. FITZGERALD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. DECKER: I'm on a point of order. Could you ask the

hon. gentleman to sit down and shut up?

MR. SPEAKER: There is a point of order being addressed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: I will ask the member to take his seat.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, what we saw happen here today

was the highest insult that can be hurled at any Speaker in the whole British

Commonwealth. It was just an attempt to get into the same old shenanigans that

they have been getting at for the last few days.

Now I have no problem with hon. members using the rules of

this House. Every rule at their disposal, use them, but not at the expense of a

gentleman. I say a gentleman, with respect, Mr. Speaker, because he is probably

one of the best gentlemen we ever had in that Chair in a good many years. His

rulings have been always impartial. At no time has he shown any favouritism. If

you go through His Honour's rulings you will find he has called this side of the

House to order many more times than he has called the other side of the House.

Not a fairer, more hon. person ever filled that Chair, and to see that insult

thrown at a man on the very eve of the Speaker's annual Christmas party.

Can you think of a more disgusting time to do it?

MR. TULK: And the rule is clear.

MR. DECKER: The rule is absolutely clear. Even if they

were right, there probably could be some basis for doing what they did. Even if

they were right, I submit, they would have to reconsider it, especially on the

eve of the Speaker's Christmas party, in this season of the year, to throw such

a slur, such an insult, at a gentleman who has served the people of this

Province and this House faithfully for all of the years he has been Speaker, as

well as the years that he has been in Opposition.

There is no point of order, what the hon. gentleman is

talking about. It is too bad he didn't leave the House too.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Speaker allowed a member on each side to thoroughly

present a case. I would just remind the hon. Government House Leader that it is

Private Member's Day.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman

that the farmers in this Province need every bit of support they can get, and

they need his colleagues to be sitting in their seats when this motion is being

debated -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: - rather than leaving the hon. gentleman like

the last great auk on the Funk Islands sitting over there trying to defend his

constituents, trying to defend the farmers in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, that gentleman has the good will of the farmers

of this Province at heart.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: I would not make any other point than that.

Mr. Speaker, when it comes to standing up in this House - I

have said to him a good many times - for the common person, he reminds me of my

old mentor, Steve Neary. I can say to him that when I put that out of my mouth,

there are not too many people I would use that for; but to see him deserted

today...

Here comes one other gentleman. Thank God there is one other

gentleman coming in to - no, no, he is just coming in to tell him to leave. He

is probably telling him to leave, to withdraw the bit of support that the

farmers in this Province have.

Mr. Speaker, it is shameful to see people make so light of

such a subject as the hon. gentleman has raised in his Private Member's

Resolution. One would assume it would be their Private Member's Resolution, but

the facts are clear. They speak for themselves. The people in the P.C. caucus,

in the Opposition caucus today, will not be here to vote as a body in support of

this resolution, and all because they were subject to the rules of this House

that the Speaker of this House interpreted - and he did not interpret it; it is

as clear as the nose on your face - that the hon. gentleman was out of order.

It is also clear that it was a planned attack to cut the legs

out from under the hon. gentleman, to cut the legs out from under the farmers in

this Province, to make sure that the support that the farmers of this Province

need from the hon. gentleman's colleagues was not forthcoming. It was planned

from the start of Question Period.

AN HON. MEMBER: A mockery.

MR. TULK: A mockery of Parliament, a mockery of this

House.

AN HON. MEMBER: Contemptible.

MR. TULK: I cannot use the word `contemptible' and I will

not use it. I will not use it. I will not use a word in this House that I know

to be unparliamentary. I have too much respect for the place, and I have too

much respect for the hon. gentleman, too much respect for the farmers in this

Province who are today - and he is right; they are in need of support. They are

in need of support from his colleagues. They certainly deserve what the hon.

gentleman is asking for, and that is all he is asking for. He is only asking

this House and this government to consider - to consider - the plight of the

farmers in this Province and if possible, do something for them.

Mr. Speaker, I want to give the hon. gentleman a clear

understanding, on behalf of the government of this Province today, that we will

consider the plight of the farmers in this Province; and if it is within our

means, and if we can find the mechanisms to do it, can find a way around to do

it, we will help them in as far as it is within our means and as far as is

possible - not like his colleagues who threw a fit of pique.

AN HON. MEMBER: Abandoned him.

MR. TULK: Abandoned him, left him high and dry on the

rocks, just the same as a boat gone ashore down off Cape Bonavista, high and

dry. Poor old Cabot, Mr. Speaker, found his way to Bonavista and the people of

Bonavista are so proud of him, they are building a replica to show that he came

there.

The PC caucus could not find their way to support the farmers

in Bonavista South. They went ashore on the rocks, they hit the rocks, they left

the hon. gentleman high and dry and said: Let him drown. If he washes off, so

what? Only another member, says the Opposition House Leader, who cares? Who

cares about the hon. gentleman, who cares about the farmers? Well, you know, I

do not want the Shops' Closing Act to pass. The Shops' Closing Act cannot pass,

even though the government says... It is unpopular, he says, it is unpopular for

it to pass, and we are going to see that it does not pass. We will do everything

we can; we will upset Parliament; we will roll 'er bottom up -

MR. DECKER: Take the House on our back.

MR. TULK: - take the House on our back, put her ashore;

the heck with the farmers. But the hon. gentleman is over there trying to defend

and help (inaudible). You should be ashamed of him. And when he stands up - and

I am going to invite him now, Mr. Speaker -we have another member over here who

wants to speak, wants to get on the record, as he should, and after that, I am

going to ask him to stand and close the debate. I am going to ask him to stand

and ask his colleagues who are not in this House to support him, when every

member on this side is going to support him, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: He has convinced us. Now, can he get his own

crowd back in to vote for this? Or is he going to put up with the likes of what

the Opposition House Leader just got on with: We will leave one member. We will

leave one member; we will go out and be sooky because the rules of the House

cannot be bent to suit our purposes, we will go out and act like children. If we

do not get our own way, we take our marbles and go home. If you do not play the

game our way, if we cannot win the game, then we are going to take our marbles

and go home.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the hon. gentleman, when he stands in his

place today, to say: Get into this House, colleagues - never mind Harvey up

hiding away in the room, get down here. I want you to come down and support the

farmers in this Province, to put your names on the record in Division because

the hon. gentleman might as well make up his mind that there is going to be

Division. We are going to see where they stand; we are going to see if their own

sookiness is more important to them than the farmers of this Province. We will

know and we will see how much backbone the hon. gentleman has. We will see if

the hon. gentleman deserves the name that I stuck on him. We will see if the

hon. gentleman will go out and disown the band that just left there when they do

not come in and vote for his resolution.

AN HON. MEMBER: His time is up, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I say to the hon.

gentleman that unless he can get control of that crowd over there, their time is

up, his time is up.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the hon. gentleman, and I want

to say it in all sincerity: I appreciate the resolution he has put forward; I

appreciate it sincerely, but I also say to the hon. gentleman that if you do

not, this afternoon, when we put the vote in this Legislature, demand that this

crew come back in here and vote and support your resolution, as we are going to

do, if you do not demand that, then your support for this resolution will be

somewhat in doubt. Your support - either that or you have to go outside and say

they abandoned you, one thing or the other, that because of some childish fit of

pique or whatever it is, whatever you want to call it, you can call it anything

AN HON. MEMBER: A tantrum.

MR. TULK: A tantrum, you can call it a tantrum, you call

it a fit of pique, you can call it what you like, but the truth of the matter

is, that the hon. gentleman's people have deserted him unless they come in and

vote for this resolution. They should come in and speak to it and they should

sit in their seats.

Mr. Speaker, I think there are a couple of other people who

want to speak in support of this and I suppose - are they going to come in one

at a time and speak, or what? Since the hon. gentleman (inaudible) to come in, I

invite my friend from Harbour Main - Whitbourne to stand and say a few words.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main -

Whitbourne.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the hon. the Government House Leader for inviting me

to participate in the debate.

AN HON. MEMBER: And giving you ample notice.

MR. WHELAN: And giving me ample notice, yes. I am

delighted to be able to support this resolution, Mr. Speaker. The Member for

Bonavista South has done an admirable job in promoting his resolution and

defending it. Certainly, he had a good cause to promote. I am disappointed that

the Opposition members saw fit to walk out on this particular resolution,

because I have quite an interest in this particular industry, and I am

disappointed they decided to walk out and decided not to support the motion of

the Member for Bonavista South.

The moose population was introduced in Newfoundland back in,

I believe, 1904. It was quite a while before that that we had farmers here in

Newfoundland. They date back to the 1600s. I would say that if anybody has

seniority in this Province it would be the farmers and the farming industry in

Newfoundland. The government, over the past number of years, have tried a number

of different things to alleviate the problem. They have brought in an insurance

program. I believe most people, probably the government included, will feel that

is inadequate. The farmers themselves have tried every trick in the book, as

mentioned by the previous speaker, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

The moose is a very adaptable animal. There are approximately

200,000 animals in the Province right now. Here on the Avalon Peninsula, where

we have a population of 250,000 or so people, we have a moose population of at

least 12,000. In a relatively small geographical area with a large number of

people, that gives rise, in many cases, to a very dangerous situation with

regard to public safety. It runs into hundreds of thousands of dollars annually

in crop damages.

There are a number of different sides to this particular

problem. The farming industry is one, and a very big one, one that certainly

captures my interest. There is another side as well, and that is the side of the

general public. There is a number of accidents every year, people maimed, people

killed. There is a tremendous cost to the insurance industry that we all have to

pay for. There is a tremendous cost to the health industry, and we all know who

pays for that as well.

Probably what is even more important is the fact that moose

accidents which cause death and injury - many young people, old people alike

have been paralysed as a result of it. The tragedy, the devastation that is

brought into people's lives cannot be measured in dollars and cents. All the

moose in the world cannot compensate an individual for the loss of a loved one.

There are some friends of mine today - I know they are up in the hospital right

now - their son has been unconscious this past two months and their life has

been turned upside down. They do not know if he will ever walk again or indeed,

if he will live.

The number of animals I would say would warrant a rather

drastic move on the part of government. I know the government has taken certain

steps, and I know they are good first steps, but I think we should be vigilant.

We should always be conscious of the fact that this problem has to be dealt

with, and dealt with in a very swift and sure fashion.

I encourage the government of the day - and I know they are

as interested and concerned about this as I am, and the man who introduced this

resolution - to be vigilant in their efforts, and I encourage them not to stop

until this particular problem and the danger of the moose population that we

find ourselves with today has been taken care of. With that, Mr. Speaker, I will

sit down.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, before getting into my few brief

remarks I want to congratulate the hon. the Member for Bonavista South for

bringing forth this motion today. It is a good motion which clearly shows a lot

of concern for the farmers in this Province, and I would certainly commend the

hon. member for bringing it forward.

I also comment the member for the way that his motion is

written. It is obvious that he put a lot of time into this, he obviously thought

it out, and he recognizes that the moose is an animal which provides a lot of

food for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. It provides a lot of sport for

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who hunt. With the outfitters, the hunters that

we bring into the Province turn a substantial amount of money. I believe the

outfitting industry provides something like $20 million to this Province. The

hon. member recognizes that, but yet he realizes that there is a problem. There

is a problem for the farmer.

I have spent a lot of time out in the hon. member's own

district, and I am familiar with the Lethbridge area, I am familiar with the

farming out there in that area and what a contribution it is making to the

Province, Mr. Speaker. I am familiar with the contribution that farming has made

to this Province over the years. You know, before Confederation, Mr. Speaker, we

were one of the largest sheep producers in the world - Newfoundland: one of the

largest sheep producers in the world. We were self-sufficient in most of our

potato, turnip, and carrot crops before Confederation.

So, farming is an industry which is quite possible in this

Province, an industry which will make a great contribution in the future. We

have a lot of faith in farming. Many people have said to me when we talk about

the failure of the inshore fishery - we talk about not knowing what is going to

happen to the fishery. I have had many people say to me, `You know, we should be

encouraging some of our fishermen to take up farming.' A lot of our fishermen

are food producers; they are used to handling food. And farming, although it is

a different kind of industry, yet it is the production of food, and a lot of our

fishermen did have to do a lot of farming for their own use - gardening, I think

you would call it, Mr. Speaker. So, there is a little bit of interest there on

the part of the fisherman. So, it is an area that could be developed.

We have acres and acres of good farmland out in the Codroy

Valley which is not being farmed. So, the whole concept of farming is one, Mr.

Speaker, that we should consider. It is one that deserves debate, and I would

like for today - this has been an opportunity for members on both sides of the

House to get up and talk about this problem, but also tie it into the whole

concept of farming in general.

I believe the hon. member, when he researched this motion,

this resolution, I believe he thought that it would provide for this House an

opportunity for us to make a contribution to farming, but when he started to do

his research into farming, he saw this problem, the problem that the moose are

causing to the farmers. So, he decided that he would bring that problem to the

attention of the House of Assembly and to the attention of Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians.

Now, that is part of the role of being an Opposition member,

to find an issue which is not being adequately addressed, bring it to the

attention of the House of Assembly; hopefully, the media would pick it up and it

would attract the attention of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians all over

Labrador and all over Newfoundland. That was his intent.

I have been there, I know what it is like to be in

Opposition, and I can venture to say that the hon. member went out in his

district in Bonavista South, where there are some good farmers and he would have

gone and talked to some farmers and they would have told him how their cabbage

patch, their big acreage of cabbage would be crowded by moose which would

destroy the cabbage.

I can see the strawberry farmers bringing to his attention

the damage that moose would do to their strawberries. I can see the potato

farmers telling this hon. gentleman that the moose do damage, and I know what he

would have said to them. He would have said: Yes, you have a problem, but you

know what I am going to do? I am going to go back to my colleagues in the House

of Assembly. I am going to go to Harvey Hodder, the House Leader, to Loyola

Sullivan, Jack Byrne, Ed Byrne and John Ottenheimer, all of those people who are

so sensitive to the needs of any Newfoundlander and Labradorian who in any way

has a problem. I am going to go to my colleagues and I am going to raise this

issue and I am going to get permission from them to put that on the Order Paper

as a private member's motion; that is what I am going to do. I know that is what

he said to his farmers out there, and they are listening today. They are

following this. They are following his course, because they know that he was

acting in their interest.

So he goes to Harvey Hodder and gets permission to put this

motion on the Order Paper. Now, it is not an easy thing to get an issue on the

Order Paper of this House of Assembly. In government we have four days a week

when we can bring forward the business of the government, but when a private

member has something to bring forward, he has to fight with the other

forty-seven members of this House for the privilege of putting an issue on the

Order Paper.

This member went through, did all of the right things,

researched this topic, discussed it with his colleagues in Opposition, and what

happens? The big day arrives. This is the day that hon. member has been looking

for, for the past number of months. This is a burning issue. This is probably

one of the issues that forced him to get into politics in the first place. He

saw this burning issue, and he got involved in politics so he could do something

about it.

How often, when people see a problem, they say, `Oh, I wish

there were something I could do about it,' but they never do anything. This hon.

member said, `I am going to do something about it.' So he went out and got a

nomination for his party. He went out and fought an election and got elected,

and came in here with that burning issue, and today is finally, finally, after

all that he put into it, after all of his fighting, after all of his arguing

with his colleagues, getting it placed on the Order Paper, he reaches the stage

where, here it is, December 17, 1997, the day that he has waited for in

anticipation ever since he was an elected member, and he brings it before the

people of the Province, before the House of Assembly. He stands up to give his

motion, and what does he see behind him? A row of empty seats; not a bit of

support for this motion which is so important to the member and so important to

the farmers of the Province.

I hope, Mr. Speaker, that a copy of Hansard will be sent to

every farmer in this Province, and every son and daughter of a farmer, so that

they will know who is standing up for the farmers of Newfoundland and Labrador

today. Who is standing up for farmers in this Province? Is it Loyola Sullivan?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. DECKER: Is it Harvey Hodder?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. DECKER: Is it Jack Byrne?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. DECKER: Is it John Efford?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. DECKER: Is it Joan Marie Aylward?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. DECKER: Is it Kevin Aylward?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. DECKER: We are standing up for the farmers.

MR. FITZGERALD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on a point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is correct

for an hon. member to rise to his feet here and take

part in debate and mention

members' names in the course of debate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. DECKER: The hon. member is rightfully embarrassed,

and I can see he is trying his best to get anyone to stop this debate. I know he

is trying, and I probably would do the same thing. I sympathize with him;

however, I have to point out that it is not a point of order. When you are

addressing members, you cannot address them by their name, but you can certainly

refer to them by name.

I understand his embarrassment. I really sympathize with him,

but it is not a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does his

research. He goes out and comes forward with the motion. His big day arrives,

and who stands up for the farmers? I named some people, not the Progressive

Conservative Party, not even the NDP. I would have thought that the NDP, who

took no

part in this charade, would at least have had the decency to stay and

stand up for farmers in this Province. No.

Who stands up for the farmers? It is the same party who

stands up for the rest of Newfoundland and Labrador, the same party who stands

up for people who have to have an income support program, the same party who

stands up for the downtrodden in society, the same party who stands up for the

fisherman and the logger and the miner, and every single Newfoundlander and

Labradorian.

So let the message go out from this House today that a Tory

member, who had some Liberal leanings, brought forward a motion which he, to the

best of his knowledge, would provide something that would make life a little

better for a particular sector of this Province. He brings it into the House and

the motion will be put soon, Mr. Speaker, after we have all had an opportunity

to speak on it but what will Hansard show? Hansard will show that there is not

one iota of support on the other side of this House but on this side of the

House, Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find that there is unanimous support.

I thank the hon. member for bringing that motion forward and

I certainly sympathize and emphasize with him for having to stand alone. All the

support of his party members is gone. They failed him! They failed him, Mr.

Speaker, in his hour of need but I tell him, with the greatest of respect that

we on this side of the House will not see him go down, Mr. Speaker, we will

stand to his back in the best interest of the farmers of this Province! Thank

you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to say from the outset that this resolution is a

timely one, especially at this time of year. We just passed an important time of

year for farmers in this Province, especially the root crop farmers in the

Province. A lot of people around the Province, when you talk to them about root

crops they don't know - one old fellow said to me one time at Flowers Point, he

don't know if it is fit to eat.

There were a lot of people over the years, Mr. Speaker, in

this Province and the Minister of Justice just alluded to some of it - the

attention being paid to agriculture in the past has missed some of the most

important facts when it comes to agriculture in the Province. As far as I am

concerned, this is an industry that could be triple the size that it is today.

Triple the size today in agriculture in the Province means too - I think in farm

cash receipts, I believe the member got it quoted in his resolution - somewhere

around $71 million. I think it is much more than that. I have always argued with

the farm cash receipts and so on, the gate receipts from farms in the Province

and I always said that it was downgraded and minimized and never put in at its

maximum. There is a lot missed when you talk about farm cash receipts in the

Province. The total capital value and so on, as far as I'm concerned is also

minimized, Mr. Speaker. However, that is probably a topic for another day,

debating whether the figures are right or not but the topic itself with regards

to moose problems that farmers are having around this Province, Mr. Speaker, is

a very important one. I don't know if people realize it or not.

I would like to say to the member that in his second,

`WHEREAS moose in this province...' I think that we should also include moose

and caribou because in my area of the Province, Mr. Speaker, in the last three

years it is just as bad or worse - it is worse than what it was when we used to

have just a moose problem. I am well aware, Mr. Speaker, of what it can do to an

industry and what it can do to a certain commodity group.

When I say that, we have one of the best pastures on the

island in the Cormack area. It is a completely fenced pasture that covers the

whole region. It takes animals from the whole region of Western Newfoundland,

Bay of Islands and even down the coast as far as Cow Head and Parsons Pond area.

They take in cattle; they take in beef cattle, dry dairy cows, lambs and sheep.

Over the years - and this is a fenced pasture, I mean a wooden fence. It is

completely fenced. It is not like in areas where - hon. members talked about -

you have such big root crop areas in areas down his way. We have a fellow by the

name of Melvin Rideout up our way who is a big root crop farmer. In the hon.

Member for Port de Grave's area, very big cash crop, root crop farmers. When

there is no fence you can understand it, they come in and they destroy. You say

a lot of people have said to me, `Well why don't they fence it?' How can you

fence and make money when it is marginal, at best, and make money to fence off

probably 100 acres or 150 acres of land? Now anybody who understands it, Mr.

Speaker, it can't be done. It can be done, yes, but it would want - this is a

fence that is five to six feet high -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: No, no, I'm talking about the pasture one.

Five to six feet high and caribou today just walked right on

through it. They just come in, they don't - what happens with caribou is not

like a moose. A moose will come in, one, two, three or four of them and that's

okay, they will take their time and they will lean over the fence or they will

knock a rail off or something like that and eat in between. A caribou, once they

start and they are panicked, they just go right on through. Once it is broken

down that is it, they go on.

It is a real problem. I can understand the problem you have

in your area. I had it with moose up until a few years ago. Now the moose are

not the problem, it is the caribou. People would think: They will go in and they

will take a head of cabbage and they will eat it. They won't. They will go from

head to head, and the economic values and the loss of that - I think the hon.

Member for Harbour Main - Whitbourne mentioned it to me the other day. A head of

cabbage, roughly around three pounds, you are talking $0.40 a pound, you are

talking $1.20 a head. One gentleman out in the area of the Province (inaudible)

this year, this fall, lost 68,000 heads of cabbage alone. I'm not kidding, I'm

serious.

Mr. Speaker, the other thing too, we just talk about root

crops. We talk about root crops in the form of cabbage especially, and turnips

and so on. What about forage? I had an agricultural person in the Province tell

me the other day: That has no affect on forage; there is no affect on pasture.

This is an individual who is into the business. He is supposed to be out helping

farmers. Not knowing. I mean, new seedlings, especially when it pertains to

pasture, highland, forage production, and so on, that is the thing that is most

susceptible to damage.

When you get 200 and 300 caribou trampling over an acreage

that you had just spent thousands of dollars - and I mean literally thousands of

dollars. If people don't think that it costs money to clear land they have

another think coming. In this Province people will always say: Oh, you have a

farm. They say: Do you have Crown land or what? Did the government give you a

farm? They didn't. If they gave you Crown land they gave you a forest, out of

which you had to cultivate and make a farm. You had to cut the trees, you had to

get the tractor and bull off the land, you had to rake the rocks, you had to

lime it, you had to seed it, you had to fertilize it. You had to do all those

things and then wait a year before you can get a crop.

That goes for root crop or forage production. I know of four

individuals in my area this year that put down a total of 377 acres of land, put

down new seedlings, new production, new cultivation, and it is destroyed

completely. One man looked out on his field one day and there were 170 caribou

on the field. Can you imagine when that is finished the tracks, the hoof prints,

and everything that has gone through that particular

section of land? It is just

completely destroyed. He has to go out and spend thousands of dollars now to put

it back into production. Just for the cost of the seed alone it is just unreal.

One of the representations that was made by one of the

agricultural people said: Okay, we will give you some licences. We will get

permission from wildlife and we will issue a few licences in the fall of the

year. When do you kill caribou and when do you kill moose? You kill them in the

fall of the year. When do you sow land? You sow no later than September 15

because you will have poor germination, it will die, it is lost anyway if you do

get it in. When you do get it in you are hoping to get it in enough so the seed

will germinate, take on enough strength, so that the spring of the year then it

will start to go. When do they do the damage? In the spring of the year when the

land is soft, when the soil is soft, when the frost is starting to come out, and

so on.

This is a real problem. The moose (inaudible) issue licence.

I think there was one gentleman, I don't know if it is in the Bonavista area or

not, this year killed twenty-seven or twenty-eight moose.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) been nineteen spotted at one

time.

MR. WOODFORD: Nineteen at one time. I mean, it is a free

meal, and it is good easy pickings. They don't have to walk through the woods

and pick off a fir or pick off a spruce or go through a brush pile. All they

have to do is come out and nibble, nibble, nibble, destroy it just like that.

The profits from some of those root crop operations are

marginal at best, especially if a gentleman or the farmer hasn't any cellar or

any avenue or any infrastructure available to keep his product over winter. He

is depending on that resource and depending on that product to bring money in

right away in the fall of the year; he is not looking at say $1,000 a month over

the winter and so on to carry him back in the spring. They want that cash crop

in the fall of the year so they can pay for the fertilizer and pay for the

limestone and pay for their capital investments and so on; fuel, labour,

everything.

There are other people who depend on it and the other thing

now, Mr. Speaker, that people in the Province - I remember sitting in the House

about seven or eight years ago. I guess, when the question was asked by the

Member for Port au Port at the time to the minister responsible for agriculture,

is he doing anything about the coyote problem in the Province, there was a real

laugh about it, and rightly so at that time, when we all made a sort of a joke

about it after but, Mr. Speaker, I tell you today, there is no joke today, Mr.

Speaker, thirty-eight lambs were slaughtered on the Cormack pasture this summer,

slaughtered by coyotes.

Now you tell that to some people in the Province who will

say: Gee whiz, what is happening to them? Coyotes in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker?

Well, there are, and you have a job to get a coyote. Mr. Speaker, anybody who is

familiar with tracking down or snaring a coyote, I will tell you, you have your

hands full because it is almost impossible. They tell you in the business that

it would almost take an average of seventy-one lambs, live bait, to catch one

coyote. That has been proven in Nova Scotia because the only way you can get

them is with live bait. You cannot put poison out because the other animals will

die as well; they are very hard and they go for the lambs, they sort of keep

away from the cattle, the larger - but they will take calves. They tried

infrared, they tried to shoot them in the nighttime, they are a very cunning

animal, Mr. Speaker, and they tried all summer but could not get one but they

crucified and slaughtered thirty-eight young lambs on the Cormack pasture this

fall.

So, look at the type of things you are up against. You have

the moose out there, we cannot get a licence, you have people out there crying

for a licence and we said there is none but there are all kinds. I know that the

caribou in my area, the Hampden downs - I skidooed on the Hampden downs for

years and I remember going in for three and four days at a time, Mr. Speaker, on

the Hampden downs and seeing probably ten or fifteen caribou. Today, Mr.

Speaker, I can take you in there any time and show you 200 or 300 at a time. I

can take you up in Cormack on any street in the community of Cormack now, or in

the summer time and show you a caribou on people's property. They are literally

out around the community and we have issued this year, about thirty-five or

forty licences.

They are rampant and I have no doubt about it, something has

to be done in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture and the Department

of Wildlife to do something about this problem. We will not be able to throw

money at this and money only; something has to be done about the moose

population and the caribou population around those communities where people

depend on the farming community for a livelihood. We have very little land in

this Province, Mr. Speaker, that is suitable for agriculture.

We have approximately only 2 per cent of the land total in

this Province that is suitable for agriculture, and when you look at Atlantic

Canada, Mr. Speaker, when you are talking about the land-base and when you look

at that approximately the total land area not including Labrador and Atlantic

Canada of sixty million acres, out of which eleven of this, some 6,600,000 acres

consist of soil which is suitable for agriculture, it occurs mainly in three or

four -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: No, that is in Atlantic Canada but we only

have a very small percentage used in Newfoundland and it is concentrated in the

hon. minister's area, one of the best areas in the Province, along the Port au

Port Peninsula there is some great agricultural land; the Cormack, Humber Valley

area. There are some great arable lands but there is very little of it, clear,

put down because it is very expensive to do it as well. But it goes to show the

very small amount of agricultural land that is available in the Province.

Yet when people are trying to take

part in this industry and

trying to make a living and livelihood out of it, there are so many impediments.

Bad enough to get in production - and there is nothing as bad, Mr. Speaker, then

spending weeks and months getting a piece of land ready and then all of a sudden

you look out through the window and it is gone in the matter of twenty or thirty

minutes. That is what it means.

You look on television and you say there is a hurricane down

in Cuba or off the Coast of Florida or off the Coast of California and you look

in Alberta the other day, a brush fire, ten kilometres wide and it destroyed

this and destroyed that, we have the same thing happening only it is in another

way. When you look out through your window and you see 150 to 200 animals

tramping over a piece of ground - just imagine if you had it on your lawn, now a

lot of people would like to have it on their lawn in the summer time so they

wouldn't have to mow it, but in a lot of cases if it was a newly seeded lawn, I

tell you, you would be in trouble.

So, I say to the member the only thing I would like to see

caribou included there, although I don't think it is going to make any

difference because we are dealing with a problem of moose it is only natural to

assume that the people that are dealing with it -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just about thirty seconds to clue up.

I would like to say to the minister, and I have said it

before to people in the department, take another look at the insurance part of

that, the livestock insurance policies with regards to agriculture in the

Province and we have done that, some of that was addressed last year on some

initiatives that have been taken, but it is hard to control, I know that and it

is hard to get money from each department to put into it. The other thing about

it is that it has to be brought to the attention of the people involved. If it

is not brought to the attention of the people who can make those decisions and

put the dollars in the right place and strategically place those dollars; well

then, I guess it is the fault of us. If I have a problem as an MHA getting

through to a certain department or a certain individual in government or

outside, just imagine what kind of a problem an ordinary person has on the

street.

So, this is why I think that it is incumbent on all of us

when we are sitting around and discussing those things that we be heard. Yes,

and I say to the member that as far as I am concerned his members should have

given him some support. It is a good resolution. The other thing about it today,

the important thing - if the hon. member had to walk out, he is going to take it

on the chin, some of them are going to say, oh yeah, you should have came with

us, you let us down, but you did not let them down, they let you down.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: They let you down because, and I echo the

comments made by the House Leader, Mr. Speaker, and you deserve those words as

far as I am concerned, you brought the initial legislation in with regards to

the food banks and so on -

MR. TULK: And we passed the bill.

MR. WOODFORD: And we passed the bill.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) you wouldn't pass the bill.

MR. TULK: Never done in twenty years that I was here, an

Opposition member got the government to put a bill and we did it because we

believed in what you said.

MR. FITZGERALD: The former House Leader wouldn't do that.

MR. TULK: Never mind the former House Leader, this

government (inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: But one of the things, and the hon. member

knows this full well what I am going to say now, is that over the years, and you

can say what you like, whether on that side of the House or this side of the

House and wherever you see it, that farming and agriculture in this Province is

an unknown commodity.

MR. TULK: Right on.

MR. WOODFORD: And I don't care what you are into, whether

you are into dairy, root crop, beef cattle, broiler production or poultry

production, and we even had people around the Province that do not know the

difference, a broiler from a poultry, they all laugh. But Mr. Speaker, I am

telling you I have spent twenty-seven years in this industry -

MR. TULK: That is the reason this government last year,

and the minister is now putting it out, some $375,000 into a public awareness

program.

MR. WOODFORD: I mean I don't think we should - and I have

said even when I was sitting in the Opposition - members today especially the

member for -

AN HON. MEMBER: I know just what you are going to say.

MR. WOODFORD: I brought it up time and time again. I went

to talk to individual members and I must say when you bring it to their

attention, something to their attention on the subject they listen, but we have

a lot more to do and I say to the hon. member that the resolution is a good one,

and it is something that is going to have to be brought to attention more in the

House. I am sure that the minister, in his new capacity here as minister, will

take our advice - your advice, my advice, anyone who must bring it to his

attention on this matter or any other matter that comes to the attention of the

minister - and I am sure he will act upon it.

I say to the member that whether it is in private or in

public, you should give him - I will not say it, Mr. Speaker.

Anyway, thank you for your time, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow on from

what my hon. colleague, the farmer from Cormack, just contributed, and our

Member for Humber Valley. I am always impressed when he speaks with respect to

agricultural issues because he has been a dedicated member in the House of

Assembly. Every chance he has gotten, he has addressed these issues in this

Chamber.

When we saw in our caucus, and when notice was given some

time ago by the private member - the only remaining member in Opposition in the

Chamber today... I would make a few comments about it, Mr. Speaker, but I do not

really want to talk about it. I am so sick and saddened by that, I can hardly

talk about it. In fact, when we got notice, when notice was given that this

motion was to be coming forth on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member

for Bonavista South, the first meeting that caucus had after that, the Member

for Humber Valley said, `I want an opportunity to speak to that motion'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Not only that; in asking for the opportunity

to speak to the motion in our caucus, he spent about twenty minutes in our

caucus telling us why it was important to speak to it, much as he did here

today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: I commend him for it, and I commend the

member for bringing forward the issue for discussion.

Mr. Speaker, most people do not think I know much about many

things. I certainly agree with them. I do not know much about farming; I do not

know much about cabbage; I do not know much about moose; I do not know much

about turnips, but I love them all, eat them all every chance I get. I do not

hunt the moose, but I love it. After someone has him down and out, paunched,

brought home, signed, sealed and delivered, I will cook it, provide all the

rest, invite you in, and we will all have a great feed; and I hope that the

crops are there to go along with it and not destroyed by the moose before we

kill him.

I am not a brutal man, and all that kind of stuff. I hate the

sight of blood, except on the floor of this Chamber in a good debate. There is

nothing wrong with that. That never hurt anybody. A bruised ego in a good debate

never hurt a single soul yet. Even in hockey, sure, a smack in the mouth is only

a bit of blood and maybe a tooth loose or something, a cut lip and a few

stitches. The only thing hurt, really, is your pride. You are all over it in a

few days, nothing to it. We are all over it. We are big boys and girls in here.

I thought we were, but last night - it has carried over today to the point that

members opposite have abandoned this poor, dedicated, single soul. They have

absolutely deserted him. And the only thing I could think of, because I was so

distressed about it last night, there is a contagious disease on that side of

the House. We heard some complaints about it a couple of nights ago.

Now there might have been some justification. Someone got a

bit cold, I understand, and whatever it is, it sunk right into the insides of

their bodies, got under their skins, right into the bones, and they have been

sick ever since. There is some kind of disease over there, because last night we

witnessed it, and because of it, because of this disease playing itself out in

the Legislature, this member, with a fabulous motion that deserves the attention

it is getting, and support from everybody, is left abandoned.

Last night - and I think the public should be reminded of

this because there was a late debate and so on; most people were tucked away in

their beds, having grand dreams and everything else - we were here slaving over

the business of the Province, dedicated to the cause, what we went out and got

elected to do, doing what we got elected to do.

The members opposite again, like today, did not like the way

the debate and the vote was going on certain issues. So, of course, the rules

allow them, if they disagree, to have the votes called and, for purposes of the

record of Hansard, to have a Division called so that the names would actually be

read as to who voted `yea' and who voted `nay'.

There is a procedure in the rules to make sure that those who

want to make sure their name is recorded, you can call a Division, have the

bells ring for up to ten minutes so if there is somebody who is not in their

seat at the moment they have ten minutes to get in and record their name. Well,

the disease started last night, Mr. Speaker. All ten of the Progressive

Conservative members opposite last night, on six, seven, or eight occasions were

seated, fastened, almost had seat belts on them, in their seats, and wanted

their names recorded. They were already in the Legislature. Wanted their names

recorded, so they asked for a division and a recorded vote. The bells started

ringing, and we said: We are ready to vote, Mr. Speaker, we are ready to record

our names. They were in their seats. Rather than vote, for ten minutes on six,

seven or eight occasions when they were complaining they had no time to debate

the business of the day, in the same breath, already strapped into their seats,

as soon as the bells started they bolted for the doors. Rang the bells so they

could have their names recorded, already in their seats, and their wonderful,

sane action was to boot her for the door.

MR. FITZGERALD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Penney): The hon. the Member for Bonavista

South on a point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education

stands here many times, especially last night, asking for relevancy to a debate.

He hasn't spoken six words about this particular resolution since he stood. I

ask the Speaker if he would call the member to order and speak in the debate on

the resolution.

MR. SPEAKER: I will ask the Minister of Education to make

his comments in the debate relevant to the motion.

MR. GRIMES: Most certainly, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the

opportunity to tell the farmers in Pleasantview that this motion is going to

help tremendously, and how it is that the members opposite are abandoning a man

who brought the proper resolution and should be getting support.

Here we are again today. The same disease that caused them to

boot her for the door first chance they got last night, today, as soon as the

motion is called, where members on this side, eagerly anticipating an

opportunity to participate in the debate, support the motion for all the right

reasons, his colleagues, once the motion is called, stand. There are three or

four words I have to use; I don't know which is the most appropriate one. I wish

I had a thesaurus here so I could dig out some more.

The Opposition House Leader, in one of the most childish,

babyish, sooky, silly actions I've ever seen orchestrated stands and says: We

have this disease over here, Mr. Speaker, we can't be here in the House

debating. We wanted to talk about something else today, but the rules of the

House didn't allow it, because they didn't go about it properly. They fooled it

up and didn't know how to get at it. The Speaker ruled they were out of order.

They challenged the Chair. Then, because in fact they were seen to be clearly

out of order, they decided, as one of my colleagues said before: take their

marbles, didn't like the way the game was going, and going home out of it.

Decided to go home and absolutely abandon their colleague.

So the farmers in Pleasantview and Wooddale in my district

know, because they have a problem with the moose. Not with the caribou, because

there are none down around there, but with the moose they have big problems.

They would be delighted to see this happen.

So that they know that as soon as the debate started on a

private member's day, which is in the name of the Opposition, that the

Opposition members - because they wanted to talk about something else and didn't

get a chance because they didn't know how to operate within the rules of the

Legislature; didn't know how to do it. A totally incompetent, silly, childish,

stupid Opposition House Leader; because he bungled the rules completely, didn't

get to debate something else for today. He decided he is going to lead the

charge. Like sheep, not like moose, like blind sheep, the other nine poor

misguided souls abandoned their colleague, who is here with the right motion,

with the right motives, doing the right thing, and they walked out. First chance

they had again, bolted for the doors.

The people of the Province need to know it. If that is the

approach that this Opposition is going to take every time it gets a little bit

hot in here, every time it gets a little bit cold in here, every time it doesn't

get its own way in here, what is their solution? Boot her for the door! First

chance you get, get out through the door! Get outside the Chamber. They went

around knocking on doors like the rest of us for three or four weeks in an

election, knocking on the doors saying: I want to be your member. I want to go

to St. John's so when the House of Assembly is in session I can debate matters

on your behalf. I will vote for this, I will vote for that.

They promised to open seventy-five fish plants. All these

kinds of things - let me get into St. John's so I can open seventy-five fish

plants. Then when they get a chance to vote on something sensible, Mr. Speaker,

with one of their own members, who has a record of being sensible and is

probably now the front-running leadership candidate on that side -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: He has to be, Mr. Speaker, because how is

anybody, even in the PC party, going to vote for any one of the other fools who

knocked on doors saying let me go in here, Mr. Speaker, so I can represent you.

Let me go in here so I can debate issues. Let me go in here so I can vote on

these issues. The first chance to vote, out through the door they go. They spent

a month knocking on doors saying let me go to the Legislature and the first

chance they get to support a very sensible important resolution, from their own

member on an Opposition Private Members' Day, their answer to him is, `Your on

your own partner. We're heading for the door and as soon as we can get out there

the better we like it.' I don't know where they are gone. They must be gone to a

Christmas Party or something. I know it is close to Christmas and they are

probably out doing their shopping.

They were elected to represent the people in this

Legislature, Mr. Speaker. They abandoned their colleague. They started doing it

in the wee hours of the morning a couple of nights ago. Something has set in,

Mr. Speaker, and I think it is set in, right into the inner part of their bones.

I hope they can shake it before we close this Legislature sometime next week,

the week after or the middle of January or whenever it happens because I would

ask them to come back and focus on the issues, like this important issue today

and support things that need and deserve to be supported like the Private

Members' Resolution, Mr. Speaker, put forward by their hon. colleague.

So I will leave with those few comments, Mr. Speaker. How

saddened I am, you could not imagine. How silly I think they look, you can't

imagine that either and I will find another word some time that really describes

my feelings. I'm just at a loss for words as to how silly, childish, stupid,

inane, sad and pathetic this really is but, Mr. Speaker, I can't wait for an

opportunity to stand up and vote in support of this Private Members' Motion

today because it deserves all of our support, including the nine sad sacks who

bolted for the door the first chance they got. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: Come on minister, tell them minister!

MR. FITZGERALD: I can't call Division can I? There has to

be three of us here.

MR. TULK: Boy you won't have to worry about that, Sir, we

are going to show the support that you need.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources

and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today and I must say that we welcome the motion put

forward by the Member for Bonavista South. In the last few days, when we and the

Caucus were looking at the motion, there was a lot of interest in our Caucus to

debate this issue, to bring forward some thoughts, bring forward some good ideas

and to discuss farming, Mr. Speaker. This resolution allows us to discuss

farming in this Province and that is good to have in this House of Assembly, for

us to be talking about farming. We don't do it often enough and I hope we are

going to do it a lot more in the next number of months.

The speech made by the Member for Humber Valley and the

Member for Harbour Main was very welcome. The Member for Humber Valley has a lot

of background and I always go to him for advice when we are looking at any issue

in this department. He is very wise when it comes to what we should do with

farming policy, the Member for Humber Valley. So we appreciate his contribution.

I want to thank the House Leader. I got to say, I have been

in the House for a long time, Mr. Speaker, a few years, a scattered one, it is

probably showing but I've been here a few years and that is one of the best

speeches that I have heard today on this issue, that the Minister of Development

and Rural Renewal made today, I have to say. A lot of passion, Mr. Speaker, and

he put it right to the House today about the impact that we can have in this

House if we all participate in the debate.

So we do welcome this resolution and ask the House of

Assembly to consider the options of a potential compensation program. As the

member well knows, we were out in Lethbridge and had a good meeting with the

farmers out there, and it is a difficult problem. All of the other jurisdictions

have been trying to wrestle with it but I am advised by my officials now that we

may be able to come up with a couple of new options that we will be able to

bring forward, I hope in the next few weeks. So we are looking at it very

carefully and I tell the member that when we had the meeting with the farmers, I

must say, they work very hard and I think we have to be more aware of what

farmers do in this Province.

As the House Leader earlier alluded to, there is going to be,

in the spring, a major advertising awareness campaign starting for farming in

this Province.

M5 ADVERTISING LIMITED has been awarded the contract to

promote agricultural awareness in this Province and you are going to see some

major ads, some major promotion of agriculture in the Province and, Mr. Speaker,

it is going to be good, I will tell you.

We are going to see people who work in the industry

highlighted, we are going to see the products that they make highlighted and we

are going to see a push for `Produced Right Here'. We will be pushing to buy and

produce right here, Mr. Speaker. For the first time we are going to see it and

we are going to see something like the successful `Manufactured Right Here'

campaign that this government initiated a number of years ago. Well,

manufacturing has grown and increased; well, we are going to do the same thing

in farming, Mr. Speaker.

We are going to work very hard, we had a meeting this morning

actually with M5 ADVERTISING LIMITED and the Federation of Agriculture and a

whole range of others who are involved in looking at the agriculture awareness

campaign and they will be meeting with all the major stakeholders in January and

February, and we will have a major campaign coming up then and, Mr. Speaker, it

will be very positive and we think it will help drive up purchases procurement

of local products for farmers in this Province.

We are also initiating a number of meetings. We have already

started with the major wholesalers, Mr. Speaker. We want the major wholesalers

buying Newfoundland and Labrador made products from here on in. They have been

doing some of it but we are going to put a lot more pressure on the major

wholesalers, Mr. Speaker, to do that. A number of meetings are lined up and we

will be seeing that the pressure is put on in a positive way, because our

products that we are making in this Province are excellent, and it is about time

that we start bragging more about them and the awareness campaign is going to do

that.

We also have, Mr. Speaker, a new web site set up in the

Department of Agrifoods, a brand new web site which gives information to all the

farmers in the Province, are able to get information on programs for the first

time right out of their household. Mr. Speaker, they are able to turn on their

computer and get all the information they need about all the programming and

information they are going to need and that has been very good also, Mr.

Speaker, for the schools because we have to get into the schools about farming.

We have also, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Development

Rural Renewal leading the way for the Rural Committee of the Cabinet which met

with a lot of the economic zones over the last few months, and farming has been

highlighted, agriculture has been highlighted by the Rural Committee as a major

opportunity for the future, and a number of initiatives we are planning for the

next year of 1998 and will be sitting down with the minister responsible for

Development and Rural Renewal to look at some new initiatives in farming, some

land clearing that we hope to do; some more land clearing that we need to do in

the great Codroy Valley and in a number of other areas in this Province, that

Bay d'Espoir -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: A lot of areas, people do not even

realize we do in farming, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: A lot of good possibilities, Mr. Speaker,

so we are getting the game plan ready for some new initiatives and to get

agriculture moving in a positive direction. The farmers have been working hard;

the industry has been working hard.

Last week, Mr. Speaker, we highlighted the School Milk

Foundations Program and Central Dairies, the Brookfield Dairies, all the

processors, fifty-four of them, all over rural Newfoundland and Labrador, given

among them, over a $ million to subsidize milk in this Province. Ninety-seven

per cent of students in this Province are getting milk at 40 per cent of the

real cost and that is really positive, Mr. Speaker, in our Province and that is

because we have an organized industry when it comes to milk. So, in the other

commodities, we are going to see the same thing occur and we will see some

improvements coming up.

Mr. Speaker, we welcome the member's resolution. This

government is a major supporter of agriculture, we are going to be a bigger

supporter of agriculture in the future; we see some major opportunities coming

up, we are going to push procurement with wholesalers, Mr. Speaker, and we will

be having a `Produced Right Here' campaign coming up. Also, Mr. Speaker, we have

met a couple of major value-added processors outside the Province, we have asked

them now to come into the Province for further meetings to discuss the potential

of some other facilities in the Province with our vegetable producers.

We are looking at the possibility of McCain and others, and

we are asking them directly to come into this Province to look at some value

added, because they are big corporations and we are saying to them, they should

be in here doing some value added and we are having a very direct dialogue with

them right now. So a number of things will be occurring, Mr. Speaker, and I want

to thank very much, the participation of our members on this side of the House.

You know, I tell you, Mr. Speaker, it was very solid here today for our caucus

to be here today. We were waiting for this today because we had planned for the

last few days - and you know, Mr. Speaker, it is not very often that I swing my

arms. I do not get excited, a scattered time I do, but you know, I have been in

Question Period - for how many weeks here now? Mr. Speaker, how long has the

House been open now the last (inaudible)?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) question on agriculture.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I don't think I have had a question on

agriculture. To the member's credit, he is the only member on the opposite side

who has shown an interest in it, I have to tell you, and I am delighted to see

it. We have to get with it. We are all working hard to try to do things, so we

have to get with it.

It is unfortunate that the other members chose to leave, but

this is an important issue and we welcome, like you said, the resolution. We are

working on some possibilities to help further what we already do, and I welcome

the contributions made by the members today.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I had not planned to participate

in today's debate, but I have been so inspired by the wonderful speeches I have

heard here today from my colleagues, and I think it is very timely.

I think it is indeed unfortunate that the theme that we have

heard repeated here today, noting the absence of the members of the Opposition

who have decided, for their own reasons, to walk out of the House, vacate the

Chamber, vacate the House that the people of the House have sent them here to

sit in and to represent their interests, on what I consider to be a very timely

issue.

I do want to commend the hon. member for bringing this

resolution forward. I think it is an area, the area of agriculture generally,

that tends to get overlooked. I find it truly amazing. I live in an area of the

Province that at one time had a strong tradition in agriculture, but over the

years people were attracted away from the land and they lost the skills.

On a daily basis I talk to people who are living on acres of

arable land and yet say to me that they cannot find anything to do, that there

are no opportunities here.

Mr. Speaker, I do not say it to be critical of these people,

because I think what we are dealing with is a mind-set. People have become

conditioned that really the land is not worth growing on. The only thing they

can remember...

I grew up in that kind of environment. I grew up where we

were self-sufficient. We raised our animals. We raised sheep and cattle and

pigs, whatever. It was a family enterprise. Everyone was involved, but we were

totally self-sufficient. I am amazed at the sorts of things, when I was a child

growing up on the Port au Port Peninsula - we made our own butter. We had fresh

cream. We always had loads of meat. We had our own vegetables. Nobody was

hungry. When I hear today, constantly, and when I hear us in this House, having

to talk about food banks, and having to provide for people, I think it is a real

tragedy that we have allowed ourselves in this Province to reach the point where

no longer are we self-sufficient but indeed we have to be dependent on other

people to step in and help us out.

Mr. Speaker, we all recognize that there are times and there

are circumstances over which people have no control that can bring these sorts

of things about, but I think it has not been helped by the fact that we have

allowed ourselves to get away from something that we did do very well. I think

it is important that we get back to this, and certainly that we, as a

government, are committed to promoting agriculture in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: And by supporting the resolution put forward

by the hon. member today to say clearly to all of the people of this Province

that we, on this side of the House, stand with the farmers of this Province. We

want to work with them. We want to support them in the promotion of an industry

that has tremendous potential for all of the people of this Province; but, Mr.

Speaker, to do that I get back again to the idea of the mind-set.

I think one of the things that we have to do, and where it

has to begin, is in the school system. We tried it in the Port au Port area, in

trying to help the young people identify career opportunities. I think for years

we saw it in the school system. We were teaching our young people about careers

that automatically would take them outside of this Province. For years we

refused to speak to our young people about careers in the fishery, and we are

doing the same thing now in agriculture.

It is unfortunate that the Minister of Education is not here

right now, but I think - oh, there he is, over on the other side - one of the

things we need to do is, through our school system, point out to our young

people that in fact - I am aware of the time - two minutes is enough for you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SMITH: I would have been finished now if you had not

interrupted me.

We need, through the school system and through the Department

of Education, to get the message out to our young people that agriculture does

have potential. It can provide them with an opportunity and a reason for

remaining in rural Newfoundland. That is why we support any resolutions that are

brought forth in support of agriculture in this Province.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: What support you are getting here boy.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: No, problem, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the

hon. member across the way.

I want to make a couple of quick comments though and I want

to say to every member of this House of Assembly, do you go into a supermarket

and look through the vegetable bin and make sure that you buy Newfoundland grown

products?

AN HON. MEMBER: I always do.

MR. A. REID: I happen to be one of those that feeds

himself and you can see I am doing quite a good job with it here in St. John's

and I shop at Sobeys and Dominion and I guarantee you I go in and pick out the

locally grown vegetables, -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: - but I will guarantee you that there are

more Newfoundlanders over buying the - I shouldn't say it I suppose - the junk

that is coming from other provinces that are on the carts because they happen to

be -

MR. FITZGERALD: Do you eat at the Irving restaurants?

MR. A. REID: No, I do not eat at the Irving restaurants.

MR. FITZGERALD: Now, be careful, be careful. Do you eat

at the Irving restaurants?

MR. A. REID: I will give you another example. I spent

last summer - and my hon. colleagues here will back me on this - I fought with

Pippy Park Commission and I fought with the other golf course here, I won't name

it, to buy some local juice from Sunnyland farms from Mount Pearl and I have

given up on Pippy Park up there, buying anything up there because they will not

do it. They are telling me the reason they won't do it is because they can buy

it cheaper somewhere else. Bull, as far as I am concerned. Put an extra few

dollars on my fees for my license and I will be glad to pay it.

The last comment I want to make Mr. Speaker, is this one. I

was not here this afternoon when the hon. Lloyd Matthews stood in the House and

talked about doing a process whereby we can do some `Made in Newfoundland'

things. I say to you quite honestly, - tomorrow if you get a chance or sometime

before you go home, find out how many employees work for Newfoundland Telephone

Company in this Province and then ask the second question, everyone in this

House ask the question, how many employees does AT&T have? I say quite honestly

to you that that is a Newfoundland company, born, bred, made and employing

people from my district and everyone's district in this House. Keep that in mind

too, that Newfoundland Telephone is a Newfoundland company and remember when

somebody asks you when you are passing through an airport, here are 5,000 points

to join up with AT&T, what you are doing to the 1,100 or 1,200 employees that

are in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to close off debate on this particular resolution. It

is a resolution that I certainly believe in. It was information that has been

provided to me by the farmers in my district. I have visited the farms on many

occasions, it is not uncommon for me to get up on a Saturday morning or a Friday

morning, if I am out there, and to spend two or three hours in on the farm

talking to farmers or in the wintertime into the warehouse where they are

grading their vegetables or washing their vegetables to get to market.

The minister spoke of marketing, and there needs to be a lot

of work done in this particular area, Mr. Speaker. When you see vegetables -

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and

Attorney General on a point of order.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I will try to be quick, and I

don't want to interrupt the hon. member's speech. Look, what we have seen happen

here today is very sad. I believe, in view of the importance of this issue, that

I'm sure the members are out listening in the Common Room. I'm prepared to let

bygones be bygones and invite them back in to vote for this motion. I would

suggest that the hon. member ask his colleagues to come in. This issue is too

important and means too much to the member. I believe he should invite his

colleagues in to vote for this motion. I certainly would be prepared to forget

what happened, allow them in to vote for farmers. It is shameful that they

wouldn't do that.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, what is happening here in

this Province today is we are seeing vegetables dumped in from other provinces.

They are coming in at an opportune time. I suppose at a bad time. It is an

opportune time for the Province which is bringing vegetables in, but for our own

farmers they are finding they can't compete with those prices. It isn't a point

that our farmers are not as good as other farmers, or they can't compete in the

type of work they do, it is all about where we live. It is impossible for the

farmers here in this Province to compete with the root crop farmers in Prince

Edward Island.

When you look at the price those farmers have to pay for

fertilizer. It was only a few months ago we saw the freight rate subsidy taken

off this particular commodity being brought into this Province; another strike

on the farmers. When you see the cost of importing limestone and other material

they use, they certainly are not playing on a level playing field. When you see

the way the production is being done in Prince Edward Island, where they go out

with their potato diggers and they take it right from the ground into the

tractor trailers -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): The hon. the Government House Leader

on a point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have to agree with the hon.

gentleman that the farmers in this Province are not playing on a level playing

field. They need all the support they can get, and I would encourage him before

his time is up to sum up this to invite his colleagues back into this House -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: - to support them.

MR. SPEAKER: No point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: No point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is

just interruption by the Government House Leader. It tells you how sincere they

are on this particular motion when you see such interruptions.

This is what is happening here today. It was only a few short

months ago when the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods of the day put

forward, I suppose, a feeble effort in trying to promote local, home-grown

vegetables in putting out a place mat.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: A feeble -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman

that he may indeed consider it a feeble effort, but I can say to him that I made

more effort than his colleagues are making today!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Get them in here to vote!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, he made a feeble effort. I

went into a couple of Irving stores because I thought - I was just waiting to

see some of those place mats there. I did not see them - thank God. Because here

is an entrepreneur, a business outside of this Province coming in here, probably

has the major part of the oil industry - big stops all across the Province, and

they do not sell one item produced right here in this Province, not an item. You

talk to farmers out there today, and the first complaint they have is they

cannot sell to the Irving restaurants.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you know where they are located? Just

about every one of them is located outside of (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You are probably right. I do not know

about that. I do know they do not support buying local product right here in

this Province. Everything is brought in from outside the Province, Mr. Speaker.

This kind of thing has to stop. If we are going to be putting

forward resolutions, if we are going to see members opposite stand in the House

of Assembly and talk about how they are supporting this resolution, they are

supporting that resolution, well, I say to members opposite: let me see the meat

of it. Let me see the commitment. Because it was only this week that the

Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods did an interview with the local paper

and in his interview said his government would not be compensating farmers for

the damage caused by moose. If his colleagues are going to stand here in this

House, say they support this resolution, and say they support the farmers, then

that is not enough. They have to take it the extra step and they have to show

some responsibility, and support the farmers in their efforts in trying to make

this a viable business.

The Member for Humber Valley is a very capable man and has

great knowledge of the farming industry in Newfoundland. Some of the figures

that I put forward, he said that he questioned them, because he thought they

probably should be higher, and he is probably right. I got my information, I say

to the member, from the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods in his budget

speech in 1997. They maybe conservative figures and I think you are right that

they are probably on the low size and they should be much higher.

Mr. Speaker, there is no harder working group in this

Province than the farmers. They have to put up with the cold, the heat, the

rain, the sun; they have to contend with weeds, they have to contend with all

the elements. It is not an industry anymore, and it is not a profession, it is a

seasonal operation. Farmers now work twelve months of the year. Farmers now do

not do things anymore the way it was when we were growing up - you dig your

potatoes and you put them in a seventy-five pound sack and you go out and sell

them. That was the only way that we saw vegetables marketed twenty years ago.

You go today and unless you put up an attractive pack of

vegetables and unless it is ready to go into the pot, you