LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRE SENTING REPORTS BY STANDI NG AND SPECIAL COM MITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden, ; report of Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Oral Questions, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gall ery on my right where we have 20(0K) students of Grade 3 standing from the Happy Thought School, under the direction of Marilyn Woloshyn. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. On behalf of all the honour able memb ers, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Health. Further to the Minister of Health's statements of yesterday, can he further confirm toda y tha t life and limb is not presently threatened by way of the strike by health care workers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): I can confirm, Mr. Speaker, that that's the information conveyed to me by the medical chiefs of staff of Winnip eg urban hospitals and by those who are in the rural facility group bargaining through the MHO, yes. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then questions to the Minister of Labour. Can tl:)e Minister of Labour report back as to the question which he accepted as noti ce-�­ yesterd�y, name!y the date of his appointment of a ·conciliation officer 1o deal ·with the 'Strike involving MHO and the Health Sciences Centre. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): May 2. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Minister advise whether or not he has, of today, received a report from the conciliation officer appointed on May 2. MR. MacMASTER: Not specifically, Mr. Speaker, but I have been aware of the events, most certainly. MR.

PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that The Labour Relations Act requires notice to be provided within 30 days, to report to the Minister of Labour within 30 days of the date of the appointment of the conciliation officer, does the Minister acknowledge the fact that he is now in violation of the Act in not having received a report from the conciliation officer in the manner prescribed by the legislation. MR. MacMASTER : I think the Leader of the Opposition should reread the

part icular piece of legislation. I am not in violation of any piece of legislation. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, th en by further supplementary to the Minister of Labour, has the Minister of Labour waived a 30-day provision in writing? MR. MacMASTER: The particular piece of legislation that I think that member is referring to, I repeat, Mr. Speaker, I am not in violation of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a sixth question. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, yes, it is the sixth and there may be some more, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we heard some directives from the First Minister's seat. Mr.

Speaker, by way of further supplementary to the Minister, in view of the fact that the Minister apparently has violated the provisions of The Labour Relations Act, and in view of the information which was provided yesterday in which the Minister had acknowledged that in fact there had been no active role undertaken on his part, can the Minister indicate to this House whether he intends to undertake any reasonable effort on his

part in order to bring about a resolution of the present strike in the province of Manitoba involving the health care workers. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, just to clear the records. Again, I am not in violation of any portion of the particular Act and I sugges t to you very respectfully, Mr. Speaker, that if I was to involve myself whatsoever in this particular dispute, I would not do it here in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member ·tor 'Fort Rouge. 4279

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu estion is to the Honourable Mi ni ster responsible for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. Will the Honourable Min ister please tell us how many proposals for development of any kind at the York and Garry site were received between the 1st of August, and September, October of 1979, apart from the one from a group of independent and voluntary grocery retailers, which was followed by a local developer and his solicitor, which proposal was approved by the grocery retailers. Were there any other proposals receiving in that time? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): There were two received as far as I have been aware of, Mr. Speaker. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr . Speaker, would the Minister please advise the House on what date he replie d to the proposal from the group of independent and volun tary grocery retailers, and secondly, on what date he replied to the local developer? MR. JOHN STON: The department has had discussions after it was referred to the Board of MHRC with the people that I am aware of that came to the department, Mr.

Speaker, and there has been communication to the second person, or the first person that made a submission. The exact dates I would have to get for the honourable member. MRS. WESTBURY: In view of the fact that the local developer and the group of grocery retailers state that they have not received replies, I would appreciate it if the Minister would advise the House on what dates communic a·· ;is Nere sent by him or by members of his department, please, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I think I have been remiss in that I took this matter under advisement yesterday, and perhaps I should have handed down a ruling before the question period started today. I thought I would probably do it after question period, but with permission of the House, I can give that ruling now. Is that agreeable? (Agreed) SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: Yesterday afternoon, the Member for Fort Rouge raised a matter of House privilege, in which she alleged that the Minister of Economic Development misled the House in answers to her questions.

I have been in contact with the Minister of Economic Development, have had the opportunity to peruse his files, and without divulging or disclosing any of the confidentiality of those files, I can assure the House that the Mi nis ter of Economic Development did not mislead the House yesterday. ORAL QUESTIONS (cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: lnkster. The Honour able Me mb er for MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a qu estion to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I would like to determine, Mr. Speaker, whether the information that is available to him would confirm that the Local government district administrator in Alexander participated in and encoura ged resignations from his own council, which had the result of creating a lack of quorum on that council? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is some indication that the administrator participated in this area. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, knowing that a local government admin istrator participated in the elimination of his own council, can the Minister tell the House how he would come to reappoint that local government district administrator regardless of what the council may now say with regard to its desire to have that administrator, or otherwise. Can the Min ister justify reappointing an adminis trator to a district, kno wing that that administrator has wrongfully interfered in the politics of the council? MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, the indication that I have from legal advice was that the administrator had not participated to any extent that would violate his role as an administrator, and furthermore, the council has requested that I, as Minister, have the administrator return to the LGD of Alexander as soon as possible. However, I did indicate yesterday that they had passed a resolution requesting that he be transferred as of not later than August 1st of this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for ln kster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to indicate that I did no t deal with the legality of the qu estion, although if the Min ister is relying on a legal opinion, I would think that he would want to table it with the House. But I ask the Min ister whether as a matter of Min isterial policy he would appoint a local government administrator to a communi ty knowing that that the local government administrator has been actively participating in the council's politics, including participated in an attempt to virtually overthrow the council, Mr. Speaker? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Municipal Affairs. MR.

GOURLAY: As I indicated, the council have requested that the administrator return to work as soon as possible. I must admit that I would be inclined not to have the administrator return to the area but I am only fulfilling the wishes of the council. There is a quorum there now and they wish him back as soon as possible because there is a backlog of work. He is familiar with the details of the government district and so on that basis I wish to fulfil the wishes of the council. 4280

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 MR. SP EAKE R: The Honour able Mem ber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Labour, following up on the questions from my leader earlier in the question period.

As the Minister does have a responsibility in regard to the dispute, and as this House, I believe, is the proper place to question the Min ister as to his fulfillment of that responsibility, can the Mini ster indicate if he has received any reports from any conciliation officer in regard to the dispute that is currently taking place at the Health Sciences Centre, or the dispute that is currently taking place in any other of Manitoba's health care facilities? MR. SPEAKER: The question is repetitive. The Honour able Me mber for Churchill with another question. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, if I might humbl y suggest that you review the Hansard on that. I had asked him specifically in regard to the Health Science Centre, and the Minister had referred earlier in the question period only to the Manitoba Health Organization. So I would hope that you would take the opportunity to peruse Hansard to see in fact if that question was repetitive. Perhaps I can rephrase it so as to not appear to be repetitive to yourself, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask the Minister if he could confirm that on April 21s t, a conciliator was appointed to conciliate in regard to the core group at the Health Sciences Centr e, and on April 30th, a conciliator was appointed in regard to the x-ray technicians at the Health Science Centre in regard to the strike that is currently taking place, and ask the Mi nister in specific if he has received any reports from those conciliation officers as to those two specific areas of concern.? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, as the Min ister has had some time to review his activities, I am surprised that he must now take the question as notice. It does imply a lackadaisical attitude on his part. My question to the Minister now is, while he is taking that question as notice, will he not also take the opportunity to check with

Section 98 of The Labour Relations Act in regard to the time limit that is imposed in reference to reports from the conciliation officer, and can he tell us now - I'm certain that he should kno w and have this information at - can he tell us now if he has in ·tact waived 1he 1ime·limit period or the other parties have agreed to extending the time limit period, and if so, when he did so, and in what form did he proceed with that extension? MR. MacMASTER: I am satisfied, Mr.

Speaker, that appropriate conciliation officers have been established to deal with the particular cases that the member is talking about, and I have a great deal of faith in their judgement and their work. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would then ask the Minister if he is satisfied that he himself as Min ister of Labour, and as a person who should have some responsibility in this area, is he satisified that he is not in violation of The Labour Relations Act at this time by not having proceeded in the manner that is drawn out under

Section 98 of the Act? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The question is repetitive. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: While I am on my feet, may I ask the indulgence of the House to recognize twelve visitors from all parts of Manitoba, who are regional finalists in public speaking for the 4-H Group in Manitoba. These twelve are under the direction of Mr. Bill Martin of the Department of Agriculture. They have just completed their finals. The finals were held approximately one hour ago at the Fort Garry Hotel.

The three finalists were Miss Ellen Campbell, Miss Colleen Stewart, and Miss Wendy Tibats, and the winner of that was Miss Wendy Tibats. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister of Municipal Affairs whether he can confirm that the LGD Council of Alexander has requested the transfer of the Local Go vernment Distr ict Administrator and did not wish that Administrator, which was suspended for a period of time, to be returned to the affairs of that Local Government District, but that the department insisted that they could not provide another administrator to assist the Council with their work, and that he was in fact reimposed on that Council. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm the statements that the honour able memb er has indicated. The information that I have would indicate that the Council had requested the return of the Administrator as soon as possible to attend to the backlog of work that has piled up since his absence. They did pass a resolution though requesting that he would be replaced by not later than August 1st. ·MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minis ter would take under advisement then, respond tomorrow, to the fact that that was the situation that I have just outlined, and that is, that the Council was 4281

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 forced to take the Administrator back under protest, and the Min ister should know that. If he doesn't, he should check with his department. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would like the Min ister to respond to whether he is willing to check into that question, and to confirm that the Council of the LGD of Alexander was asked to take back a resident Administrator that they rejected and that they had asked to be transferred away from that particular Local Government District.

Is it not a fact, and can the Min ister take that under advisement and report back tomorrow? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to do that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Min ister responsible for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation.

In view of the fact that since 4:30 yesterday afternoon the Min ister has reviewed the file with the Speaker of this House, can he give me an approximate date to within a week as to when letters were sent to the group of independent and voluntary grocery retailers, and to the local developer in respect to the proposals which they made for the site at York and Garry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I was accused of misleading the House and I phoned you to ask your opinion on it. You asked me to meet with you to decide whether I had or I hadn't.

I produced the file to show that I hadn't. I don't have it in front of me at the present time, and I might say, Mr. Speaker, I said to the member earlier, I took her question as notice and she will have the dates of the letters. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Min ister of Natural Resources.

In view of the fact that I have received many outraged complaints from cottage owners in the Nopiming Park, Bissett area, complaining that provincial staff are preventing them from going to their cottages or staying in their cottages, could the Minister explain to the public why these people are being prevented access to our resources? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minis ter of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, I would have assumed that the honourable member was aware of the serious extreme fire situation which has existed in the province up to this point, and it has been necessary to take some extreme precautions in order to prevent further outbreak of fires, and I'm sure that's the reason why people who have been contacting him have been restricted in their travel. However, there will be some relaxation of the travel restrictions taking place this afternoon.

As a result of the showers we have had, they have reduced the fire risk to some extent, and the details of those travel restriction relaxations will be announced later this afternoon, Mr. Speaker. MR.

PARA SIUK: I thank the Mini ster for his answer, and I'd also like him to explain why American campers and American tourists at private lodges in that area, like the Caribou Lake resort, are being allowed, and have been allowed to go in to camp in that area, or to go to private lodges in that area, supposedly on the basis of Ministerial, or at least government approval, while Manitobans are being prevented access to those same resources which are owned by the people of Manitoba? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, let me assure the honourable member at the outset that any on-the­ scene sorts of relaxation of regulations or restrictions, if they have taken place, have certainly not taken place at my direction. But we have a very competent field staff who have been dealing with the fire situation. They have found it necessary, from time to time, to take special restrictions on the scene.

The situation can change from hour to hour, as a matter of fact, and in some cases, the sort of restrictions which have been in place have allowed people to go to established camps when they have not been allowed to go and establish a camp on the lakeshore, for instance, with a tent, or simply put their boat ashore on the lake. So there have been some differences in the restrictions in place in different areas, and depending on the circumstances.

And I'm sure that given the large num bers of people involved, and that non­ residents could conceivably be coming from many thousands of miles away to try and take advantage of a booking that had been made months before, and if they have arrived on the scene, it's possible that the officer in charge may have given permission for them to go in because the officers do have the authority to issue permits. Last weekend we made a general appeal to the public simply to stay out of those forested areas. It was not a restriction that said they couldn't go in.

It was an appeal to them to stay out because of the extreme fire situation. And I am sure that some people have suffered inconvenience, Mr. Speaker. We regret that very much, but in our efforts to restrict, to lessen the possibility of further forest fire outbreaks, we have put restrictions in place and we have asked for people's co-operation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: In view of the fact that in every complaint I received, it was a Manitoba cottage owner who'd been in the area for some time, who had been asked by conservation officers to leave, while at the same time every one of these people noticed that the cars and campers allowed to stay in 4282

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 the area all bore American licence plates, is it then the policy of this government to give preferential treatment to our recreational resources, owned by the people of Manitoba, to people outside of this country, while at the same time refusing access to th ose recreat ional resou rces to the people of Manitoba? MR. RANSOM: Of course not, Mr. Speaker.

But the honourable member is doing his best to find some kind of weakness in the fashion with which the government has been dealing with a forest fire situation that is more serious than anyone has ever experienced in the history of the province before. I am no t saying that th ere hav en't been some seemingly inconsistent applications of restrictions. It doesn't surprise me. But in cases where people have had bookings, for instance, to come to the province, th ey've had them for months, th ey may have travelled thousands of miles to get here, it is quite a different situation.

If the local officer is convinced that there is no special danger in having them in there, it's possible that those sorts of decisions were made on the site, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that they are relatively isolated situations. We regret that people have been inconvenienced in any way and as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, the travel restrictions are being relaxed this afte rnoon, and I would ask anyone who is interested in the specific restrictions that will be in pla ce henceforth, that they listen for details of that annou ncement later today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Go ver nment House Leader. HON.

GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, on May 29th, the Member for Elmwood asked me if I would take a look at the prescribed seating limits in the MLA's dining room and the number of chairs. I am advised by the manager of the Licence and Permit Department of the Liquor Control Commis sion that the manager requested permission to extend the licence and the Licencing Board on March 5th, 1979, app roved the request and authori zed a seating capacity of 144 persons in the main din ing area.

In adver tently the posted seat ing capacity sign in the dining room was not amended and I am advised that either has been done or is in the process of being done. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. A question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. In view of the fact that several years ago his department suggested to the LGD of Alexander that if they wanted to trade their local government distric t admin istrator, they would be required to purchase his house, can he advise as to whether that is a stipulation with respect to the current transfer? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: No, that is not stipulated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister of Health. Has the Minister met with representatives of the Manitoba Optometric Society in order to discuss ways and means to resolve the current shortage of optometrists within our province? In this regard, Mr. Sp eaker, we note that there are only some 68 practiti oners of optometry in the province as opposed to the recommended standard of 100. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR.

SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and my officials have also met with their counterparts in the other western provinces to discuss the whole challenge for western Canada where there is a similar situation in each of the western provinces. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. In view of the fact that Manitoba has only 28 ophthalm ologists rather than the recommende d 40, has the government met with the Manitoba Medical Association to try and resolve what the head of that associations ophthalmological

section has described as a crisis in eye care in the province? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, I meet regularly with the current pr esident of the Man itoba Medical Association and his top officials. Opht halmology is certainly one of the specialities that is discussed and reviewed on an ongoing basis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that Canada's only school of optometry at the Univ ersity of Windsor has only three places per year allocated for Manitol:>a students, and in view of the fact that 60 percent of our province's optometrists will be retiring within the next decade, can the Minister indicate what steps he plans to take in order to avert what the president of the Manitoba Optometric Society describes as a pending catastrophe with no solution in sight in this area? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, we will either act unilaterally to deal with it, or we will act collectively with our western colleagues.

The determination of that course rests on ongoing discussions that are taking place between the four western provinces at the Deputy Ministerial level right now with respect to optometry and some other health specialties. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNI ACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Community Services, to ascertain whether or not he has developed and comple ted his development of the program for extension of day care as announced in the Budget Speech and the White Paper? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Community Services. 4283

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 HON. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): No, it has not be&n finished as yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the same Minister whether he has yet developed the program relating to the Child-Related Income Support Program announced in the Budget Speech and in the White Paper? MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, that is presently being developed in conjunction with the Minister of Finance's Department.· MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a final supplementary. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Housing whether he has as yet developed his program dealing with the enriched SAFER Program referred to in the budget and in the White Paper? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: It's being worked on, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Government Services. Mr. Speaker, it's been reported that the Saskatchewan Government Insurance Corporation suffered a loss of some 28.7 million last year.

I wonder, could the Minister provide the members of this House the copy of their annual report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I do have the responsibility of providing all members of this House a copy of the annual report of our public insurance corporation. That isn't extended to the Saskatchewan one. I am aware of the subject matter that the Honourable Member for Roblin raises. I can perhaps provide him and those others who are interested with some

summary of the Saskatchewan report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Labour, and it deals with inspections of amusements rides. It is my understanding that McKay Amusement Ride Company from Spokane, Washington is presently appearing at the Unicity and propose to go to the St. Vital Shopping Centre and also to the Portage 1£1. Prairie Shopping Centre. It is also my understanding that this firm has not had a Manitoba inspection.

Could the Minister explain why and when an inspecti on is anticipated of this amusement company, which is under his jurisdiction. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: I wasn't aware that they hadn't had an inspection and I'm not sure to date whether in fact they have or they haven't. I will get back to the Member for Logan as soon as I get that information, Mr. Speaker. MR. JEN KINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My second question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

I think two weeks ago I raised with the Honourable Minister then a question that he promised he'd come back with and answer, which was regarding the enquiries that were made by the Banking Association of Canada with respect to the two newly-elected members of the House of Commons, namely the Member for Winnipeg Centre and the Member for Dauphin. I asked him at that time whether there had been a violation of any legislation here in Manitoba, and I wonder if the Minister has an answer at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I am advised that there were no breaches or violations of The Personal Investigation Act in the sending out of that particular letter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan with a final supplementary. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At the same time, I also asked the Minister, and he took as notice, whether he would be able to find out whether there were personal dossiers on other Members of Parliament representing Manitoba ridings, and also whether there were personal dossiers on Members of this Legislative Assembly, and I wonder if the Minister has an answer at this time. MR.

JORGE NSON: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that this is a normal practice of the part of the bank insofar as Members of Parliament are concerned, but I am also advised that there are no such files on the Members of the Manitoba Legislature. While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may also answer a question that was posed to me some time ago by the Member for Fort Rouge. I might also add that the Member for Minnedosa and the Member for Virden were enquiring about the same matter.

That was in connection with an extension of an order of the Clean Environment Commission with respect to the building of a sewage facility in Minnedosa. The extension was granted by the Water Services Board because the original tender that had been allowed for the construction of that particular facility was somewhat in excess . . . there was only one bid and it was somewhat in excess of what the Water Services Board considered to be a reasonable price.

The extension was granted, the bids were resubmitted, and the tenders closed a few weeks ago and construction will proceed this year so there will be no necessity for an extension of that time limit. 4284

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the First Minister.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Community Services has not completed the development of his program relating to day care and to the CRISP Program, and in view of the fact that the Minister for Housing has not completed developing his program relating to the SAFER Program, can the First Minister indicate to the House why it is that he has published an advertisement in the daily newspapers inviting people to send in applications for a pamphlet dealing with the White Paper reforms, as indicated in the newspaper, which he no doubt has seen and which bears his name. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

HON. STERLING R. LYON (Ch arleswood): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, with his convenient lapse of memory, will recall, I am sure, when I reinvest his memory with this knowledge, that in the White Paper document, which was tabled at the time of the budget, there was a

schedule given as to when each of the various programs would come into effect. The departments, as has been indicated by the various Ministers, are working on the detailed regulations for these programs.

In the meantime we are, through the instrumentality of the advertisements to which he makes reference, advising the public of Manitoba that they can have access to a pamphlet, which is in preparation, to outline the major points of the proposals contained in the budget, which I am sure even my honourable friend will agree, targeted as they are on those in greatest need in this province, represent one of the largest steps forward in terms of helping the poor of this province that has been seen in many a long time. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, in thanking the Minister for referring to my memory and indicating that two of the programs are not due to start until January next and one next September, may I ask the Minister how it is that he has been spending taxpayers' money for an advertisement inviting applications for a brochure which has not yet been made available, Mr. Speaker, and cannot be found in this building or in government's hands. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, that brochure is in the course of preparation and will be sent out to all who ask for it to outline to them all of the indications of new programs made in the Budget Speech, which was only, what, some two, two-and-a-half weeks ago. I merely ask my honourable friend, Sir, through you, to conjure this situation. Had such a brochure been prepared in advance of the budget and somehow been distributed before the budget, then he would have been the first to have been on his feet complaining about a leak of the budget.

It was prepared properly and with commonsense management, which I know is strange to him, after the budget. When it is ready, Mr. Speaker, it will be sent out to all people who ask for it, and I know it causes a great deal of discomfort and writhing among my honourable friends opposite for them to realize that there are other people on the face of the earth beyond Socialists who have compassion and care for the poor. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I would invite you and request you to look at Hansard and see what was said by the First Minister, and bear in mind what your admonishments were yesterday, only yesterday, in regard to responses from the other side as well as questions. Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate your doing that, just as you looked at the files of the Honourable the Minister for Economic Affairs. Mr.

Speaker, then may I ask the Honourable the First Minister, since the department was so precipitous in spending taxpayers' money to invite enquiries for brochures which have not yet been printed and for which there is no urgency because the program is long delayed and the programs have not been developed, would the First Minister indicate to the House and to the people of Manitoba what opportunities he is going to give for a public discussion of the White Paper as invited and stated in the White Paper, which says that further improvements or reforms may be suggested during public discussions of this White Paper.

What plans are now available to make it possible to invite public discussion, and that's the word that I quote from the White Paper? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take a look at the particular line that my honourable friend has taken out of, or in context of the particular paragraph from which it appears. My recollection, Sir, would be that was with reference, I should say, Sir, to Education financing other things that were indicated in the report, but I will be happy to take a look at that sentence. My understanding is, Mr.

Speaker, that we had seven days of discussion during the Budget Speech Debate, and I don't know what - my honourable friend thinks he is here representing Karl Marx, that is fine. The rest of us, Mr. Speaker, are here representing the public of Manitoba, and I daresay that the discussion we have in this House is fairly important. POINT OF PRIVILEGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns on a point of privilege. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, raise this, not that I feel deeply wounded, but only to indicate to you, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister has now suggested that I represent Karl Marx

whereas all the rest of the House represents the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I think it is time that the Minister was called upon to withdraw remarks of that kind and I think he should do so right now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister on the point of privilege. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, realizing what a tender heart my honourable friend from St. Johns has, I happily withdraw any reference to Karl Marx. He doesn't represent just Karl Marx in this House, he 4285

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 has a number of colleagues who also represent him, and I am the first to admit that they also try to represent the people of Manitoba, not too well, Mr. Speaker, but they try. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I want the First Minister to be given every opportunity to continue to cast these kinds of slurs, not only in this; House but outside, and I want him, Mr. Speaker, once again to be called upon to withdraw the remarks he made not only about me, but about other members of the House as to whom they represent. Mr.

Speaker, I invite him again to make the kind of speeches he has already made so as to show to the people of Manitoba the kind of person they have as the Leader of this government and of this province. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The time for question period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Government Services that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Education, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are starting on Resolution 116. I will call on the Minister; I think there were some unanswered questions hanging over from yesterday's session. The Honourable Minister. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Mr.

Chairman, in response to a question that came up last night with respect to whether or not I had contacted the previous Minister of Northern Affairs with respect to funding for the current year to the MMF, there was a letter sent by Mr. MacMaster dated March 28, indicating the fourth quarter payment for the year ending March 31, 1980. He reminds Mr. Morrisseau that the funding for the grant has been transferred to the Department of Northern Affairs for the 1980-81 fiscal year. This is the only commitment that was made in writing from the previous Minister.

I have some figures for the number of communities that were self-administering, dating back to 1970-7 1. In that year, there were 19; the following year, 20; in 1972-73, 22. It was the same until 1976, with 22. In 1976-77 that changed to 23, and it has remained at 23. I'll just go over that again. In 1970-71, there were 19; 1971-72, 20; in 1972-73, 22. It remained at 22 until 1976-77. In 1977-78, 23; then it dropped down to 21 in 1978-79; and it was 21 until now. It has increased to 23 and it is anticipated by the end of this year there will be 26. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on 4.(a)(1), as a matter of fact. MR. PARASIUK: This is Salaries and Wages for Agreements, Management and Co-ordination. I assume, then, that this group would be very involved in negotiating extensions to the Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement; this would be one group that would be involved in doing that. I would like to ask the Minister, because I think this is probably the most appropriate time, to indicate when the first stage of the 15-year Canada­ Manitoba Northlands Agreement expires.

I believe it is the end of fiscal year 1980-81; that would be March 31 of this year. MR. GOURLAY: That's correct. That's the first phase of the 15-year program. MR. PARASIUK: That's phase one. Therefore, as of April 1, 1981, phase two, which presumably would be another five-year program; the second five-year program within a long-term 15-year agreement would then be launched.

Could the Minister indicate whether he is in a position at this stage to tell us, or to confirm to us and to commit to us, that the order of magnitude of federal-provincial programming with respect to these special long-term programs relating to northern development, especially for native people in northern Manitoba, will in fact be of the same order of magnitude, taking into account inflation - in fact we should have some increases - as is presently the case. MR.

GOURLAY: All I can say at this time is that the Minister of Finance for the province of Manitoba has had some discussions with the federal Minister responsible for OREE. Some discussions have taken place. We know that some type of program will be available for the next five years. We are not sure at this point as to the number of dollars or what format the next five-year program will take, at this point. MR.

PARASIUK: Since we have, in the Canada­ Manitoba Northlands Agreement, something in the order of 25 million, and I think something in the order of 2 million for administration and 800,000 for Acquisition and Construction, we are basically speaking of yearly expenditures in the order of 28 million right now, through the Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement, for northern Manitoba development. Is that roughly the order of magnitude? MR. GOURLAY: It is probably closer to 30 million. MR. PARASIUK: 30 million per year, which I would argue, Mr. Chairperson, is probably a valid amount.

We are talking about long-term development problems. That was recognized when the Canada- 4286

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 Manitoba Northlands Agreement was originally signed. That's why it was seen as being a 15-year agreement. It was decided at that time that since the problems of northerners, especially in northern Manitoba, are so severe and that the problems are structural, it would require a very definite, sincere, long-term commitment on the part of both federal and provincial governments to try and provide economic development and social and human resource adjustment and development of a long term nature.

What staggers me is that we are not that far away from the time when we will have to begin the next five-year agreement, and the Minister is not in a position to tell us what that agreement will look like. Because if you have no idea of what it looks like at this particular stage of the negotiating process, you certainly will have no idea in about ten short months, because the process is such that it starts going into both Treasury Boards sometime about September, if in fact it's going to be in place by April 1st of next year, next fiscal year.

And what I've heard from my Ottawa sources is that the provincial government is going to decrease the commitment to northern development under the Canada�Manitoba Northlands Agreement quite substantially next year, that there will be very little time, if any, for consultation with northern communities and with native groups in the north, as was committed in previous years, because nothing has taken place to date, and that that will be a tremendous blow to northern Manitoba. Northern Manitoba to date has suffered tremendous blows by government cutbacks.

I think that the people of northern Manitoba have reacted to this by, quite rightly, throwing out the federal Conservative MP for northern Manitoba, and I think that most people who have looked at that situation have acknowledged that the reason why Cecil Smith was turfed out by the voters is that there was a reaction to the cutbacks in northern programming by the Conservative government of Manitoba. To compound the situation and to add to the misery in northern Manitoba, we find now, and I'm quite certain that the government will, indeed, cut back the program very drastically. That will be wrong.

It will be a tremendous slap in the face to northerners. It will increase their cynicism of government opportunism and lack of concern. It will be the type of body blow to northern development which will be very difficult for any succeeding provincial government and succeeding generations in the north to recover from. And I say that that type of action would be a tragedy.

It would take so much time, and really what it would do, it's not a matter of just forgetting about the north, because if you cut back on programming in the north, you will really add to the social and economic problems that we face in the inner city, because many people from the north don't have economic opportunities, don't have equality of opportunity up north, and that's one of the reasons why they are coming down to Winnipeg, ill-prepared to live in Winnipeg, seeking some type of life chance.

And they aren't that prepared to get it here; they aren't that prepared to live in an urban milieu, and many of them end up on skid row, many of them end up in our corrections institutes.

We talk about it here and we moan about it, and we don't have enough programs in the inner core to deal with that problem, but surely, the key thing we have to do is to try and establish the economic development and social development programs in the north so that northerners, who I believe really sincerely wish to stay in the north, to live in the north, to live out their full lives in the north, have the opportunity there and aren't forced by economic circumstances to come to the south, ill-prepared to seek a better living condition here.

That is what's going on, and that's one of the reasons why Northlands was established. It was recognized that this was a very, very difficult set of problems to overcome and that it would take a long time to overcome them, and that's why the 15-year agreement was put in place. Now, what concerns me is that we've got a provincial abdication shaping up because the Minister isn't in a position to indicate what the future programming will be in northern Manitoa, and if you're talking about five-year programs, surely you should be able to do that.

And secondly, I believe that we are getting some type of concurrence for opportunistic purposes, by the federal government, to this switch. Up until a little while ago, my sources in Ottawa told me that the OREE officials were quite concerned about this lack of interest in northern development by the provincial government. They thought and they knew that within a year there would be a tremendous shortfall in OREE spending in Manitoba, because no spending would take place in the north, which takes up 30 million per year, and they were concerned.

Some bureaucrats are always concerned about their budgets; they want to protect their budgets and they felt it was important to continue the northern program. Well, what's happened in the last little while is that Lloyd Axworthy's gotten into the scene and he is now recognizing that there will be this surplus of OREE funds in Manitoba because of decreased expenditure in northern Manitoba, which I say is wrong, and he has moved in opportunistically, and he has made a number of fairly grandiose announcements with respect to committing OREE funding in the city of Winnipeg.

Now, my position is that I want OREE funding in the city of Winnipeg. From 1970 to 1977, I tried to negotiate to get OREE to put money in the city of Winnipeg, to recognize that there were serious problems with the inner core, to recognize that a lot of those problems were human problems and that required a pretty strong injection of funds geared to eliminating regional disparities to try and deal with that problem. They refused at that particular time. Now I find that they are making commitments of supposedly up to 60 million, possibly something in the order of 30 million in OREE funding. It's not quite sure.

We've not been able to get a clear answer from the provincial Minister of Urban Affairs, who was at the joint conference with the federal Minister of Immigration and the federal Minister of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion when these commitments were made. But my concern is that Axworthy is making these commitments at the expense of northern Manitoba.

My concern is that Peter, the North, will be robbed to pay Paul, the city of Winnipeg, and my suggestion, and my firm conviction, is that it is very important to have that level and quality of programming continue in northern Manitoba that has continued to date. We 4287

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 have to guarantee that we, as a society, are prepared to put something in the order of 30 million or 35 million of Northlands Development, protected for a future 10-year period, per year, into the north, taking into account, inflation, and then at the same time what is required is a further injection of federal money matched by provincial input to deal with the particular problems of the city of Winnipeg; and if it is the intention of the federal government to somehow save face with respect to the rail relocation issue and take money that they knew the province wasn't going to use, or ·didn't want to use in northern Manitoba, to funnel it into Winnipeg, that would be a despicable devious scheme.

It would, in fact, hurt those people who can least protect themselves, the northerners who often have a very great difficulty coming down here and making their problems known to the public, having their concerns heard and having their problems dealt with.

What I would like to get from the Minister is a firm commitment that OREE money being spent in northern Manitoba, as part of a 15-year program, will not be diverted from northern Manitoba to the city of Winnipeg; that there will be a commitment by this government, which would be honoured by future governments, because we, I think, believe sincerely in northern development; that The Northlands Agreement, which is a 15-year agreement, will be honoured at the present order of magnitude taking into account inflation; and that OREE announcments regarding injections of federal OREE funding into the City of Winnipeg or for Tourism development, or for grants to businessmen in southern Manitoba, will not come at the expense of northern programming, which this Minister is responsible for when we talk about The Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement which is carried in this particular Budget appropriation; that is the type of commitment I want from this Minister, that he, as the Minister of Northern Development; that he, as the Minister responsible for The Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement, will not let federal funds be diverted to other areas of Manitoba because he recognizes that the problems are long-term and require a 15-year commitment.

If he is prepared to make that commitment, then I think we can then talk to other Ministers like the Minister of Urban Affairs, like the First Minister, like the Finance Minister, and insure that they recognize the commitment of the Minister of Northern Affairs to northern development and that they honour that commitment; and that, therefore, they press the federal government that when it makes announcments that it is going to put injections of new federal money into Winnipeg or into rural Manitoba, it is doing so because it recognizes the problems of the inner core as being another set of specific particular problems that does require a fresh injection of federal money in order to try and deal with them.

That is very important, that to me is the most critical item facing us through the remainder of these three items, which all relate to The Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement. I think that what we need is a very strong clear statement from the Minister that the order of magnitude of funding in northern Manitoba under The Canada­ Manitoba Northlands Agreement will be the same next year as it is this year, and that his government is fully committed to a five-year program of economic and social development primarily geared to indigenous northerners in order to deal with the problems that exist up there.

I hope the Minister is in position to give that to us right now. MR. GOURLA V: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I entered this portfolio back last November, one of the concerns that I was faced with was the fact that the Northland Agreement was quickly running out, and in fact the first five-year program expires March 31 st, 198 1. Several meetings had been arranged just at the time when the previous federal government was defeated and so meetings with the OREE Minister of the day didn't take place as was hoped for in early December.

I realize and appreciate the time is running out, however, I am still optimistic that a new agreement will be in place as soon as possible, and as I indicated earlier, our Minister of Finance has been in touch with the Minister of OREE and we are hoping to have further meetings set up within the next few weeks to optimistically get a new program in place. I share the view of the Member for Transcona that northern development is very important and certainly I plan to not lessen the effort into the north, but to increase it.

We have worked on some budgets aiming at some 208 million for the northland program, which would probably not, taking into account the inflation factor, would probably not do any more than we have done in the past five years. Further to that, we are also looking at a longer­ term agreement than five years, five years is not very long when you are taking long-range programs of development in northern Manitoba, and we are hoping that we can reach an agreement on a 10-year program.

I don't know just how this will be received by the federal people, but certainly the 10 years would give us more time to develop longer-range programs for northern development. I am sure that the federal government would agree with the statements made here today that they are not prepared to slap the faces of northerners by cutting back on funding that would be earmarked for projects in the north.

The discussions that will take place in the next few weeks will be strongly bargained for by this Minister and other Ministers in the Cabinet to ensure that we get our fair share for northern development in hopefully the next 10-year program. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transonca. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, my fears aren't ameliorated by the remarks of the Minister for Northern Affairs.

The government has been in office now for over two and a half years, it is in part excusable for this Minister to say, well, I have just come onto the portfolio and I haven't had a chance to put the wheels in motion to develop comprehensive long-range detailed programs for negotiating with the federal government, but it certainly is inexcusable for his predecessor, and for the government of this day, that they would have so callously disregarded the north, to let the situation just fall apart as badly as they have. There have been many many strong approaches to this government by communities in the north, by 4288

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 organizations in the north, saying, let us participate in the planning process, so that our needs can be better defined and better dealt with, and that isn't happening. Obviously, the Minister now is confirming that cannot happen, that the programming will be rushed if, in fact, it takes place at all.

So what we have now is a situation where this government will indeed be slapping the northerners in the face by turning their backs on them completely in the planning and programming function for the next year, and that is happening, and the Minister, in fact, has been saying that he will be hard-pressed to meet the April 1st deadline. So I hold the government responsibile for that. I do believe that they aren't taking a hard position with Ottawa.

My sources in Ottawa say that the funds indeed were running out after 198 1, April 1st, 198 1, that indeed there was an amount of money available that could be used for other purposes. As a result, other provinces were looking around; the federal Minister of Immigration has moved in. I think it is important for us to get a clear commitment from the government, from both the provincial government and the federal government, that northern programming will not be robbed by either government for purposes of political expediency.

We should recognize that the problems of the inner city are very real and therefore we should deal with that issue as a separate issue, a new issue. If it requires funding, fine, we have to seek other sources for it but, surely, it would be wrong and it would tragic if we robbed the north to pay for that and that is the major concern I have. I know the logistics of government programming and spending: If the funds appear to be lapsing they'll be diverted and if no programs are in place next year they will be diverted. I think the Minister of Immigration may be gambling on that. I hope that is not the case.

I hope that he will insure that there is fresh funding coming into Manitoba to back his commitments that he is making to the city of Winnipeg, and I think this is a matter of major and serious concern. And it should be not only to northerners, it should be to us all, because we surely must believe that the people of the north deserve a fair chance, deserve equality of opportunity and indeed, in order to insure that, we have to do extra things to ensure that that takes place. I wonder if my colleagues have any comments on that, but I have tremendous concerns about this in terms of shifts of money.

But I think there must be tremendous concerns that exist with respect to the whole question of whether northern groups, northern people, northern communities, will get any opportunity to get involved in a planning process to try and better shape the programs that might deal with their needs; given the time constraints, that doesn't seem to be the case. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)( 1)- pass - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson. We do have a number of questions in regard to specifics as well as generalities, reference to Northland.

I'd like to ask the Minister right now if he can table before us the annual report for the 1978-79 year. I note that we have gotten in the past progress reports for 1977-78 and also for 1976-77, but there has not to date been any report tabled in regards to 1978-79. As the materials contained in those reports are important to our discussions here today, I'd ask the Minister if he could provide copies to us? MR. GOURLAY: I understand that those copies are not available to us yet. They will probably be another couple of months. MR.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister then if that is not unusual that copies for the year 1978-79 would not be available at this time? Is that out of keeping with past practice in regard to the timing of the presentation of those reports? MR. GOURLAY: I understand that this is the usual timing for this publication to come out, which will be around August. MR.

COWAN: Well perhaps the Minister then can indicate what materials were used at the last annual review of Northlands that is supposed to be held every year before September 1st, in regard to analysing the activities of the program over the previous year and in regard to being able to provide some insight into how those activites should continue in the upcoming year. MR. GOURLAY: Usually the annual review of materials provided by the various departments. MR. COWAN: Would the Minister then be able to provide those materials to us? MR. GOURLAY: The review that is provided in September is for the year coming up. MR.

COWAN: Would the Minister then be willing to provide those materials for us? MR. GOU RLAY: It would appear that the publications that are available have already been tabled, unless there are some specific items that you are missing. MR. COWAN: Would the Minister indicate so I can check with my files as to specifically which reports have been tabled in regard to the analysis of individual projects and community activities under the Northlands Agreement? MR. GOU RLAY: I've been informed that the progress reports, if this is what you are requesting, will be available, but not for another couple of months. MR.

COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, according to the agreement dated September 15th, 1976, the subsidiary agreement between Manitoba and the federal government in regard to Northland,

Section 9 says that A progress report shall be submitted by the joint managers to the principal Ministers on or before the annual meeting of the Ministers, as prescribed under Sub-section 9(1) and

Section 10 of the GDA. I would ask the Minister if he has received that progress report. 4289

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 MR. GOURLAY: That's the progress report that we are talking about, which will not be available for another couple of months. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister then which progress report they used for last year's annual meeting. MR. GOURLAY: It would the 1977-78 progress report. MR. COWAN: So in fact they're working, Mr. Chairperson, on a one-year time lag in reference to reviewing the specific projects that have been undertaken via the Northlands Agreement; is that not correct? MR. GOURLAY: That's right, and nothing has changed; this was the same with the previous administration. MR.

COWAN: Is the Minister satisfied that they in fact at that annual review at that annual meeting can in fact review the activities of the different communities during the previous year and also try to determine long range goals as well as short-term goals, using reports that are outdated at the very onset by at least one year? MR. GOURLAY: Well, I would agree that it would certainly be to an advantage to have more current information. MR.

COWAN: Then does the Minister have, by way of specific documents or by way of information from his staff, an updating of those reports and activities before he goes into that annual meeting? MR. GOURLAY: No. MR. COWAN: I am sorry, if I could ask the other committee member to put his briefcase down at the front there, so I can ... That's okay now. I missed what the Minister had said on that last one, Mr. Chairperson. Perhaps he could . . . MR. GOURLAY: I am not sure what you had asked. MR. COWAN: What I had asked the Minister, Mr.

Chairperson, was had he been updated as to specific activities that had taken place during the past year before going into that annual meeting, by either specific documentation or by staff reports. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, each department is supplied by reports so that they know what is going on. MR. COWAN: So each department supplied those reports to the Minister, Mr. Chairperson, so that he would know what was going on when he attended that meeting; is that a correct

interpretation of what I have been told? MR. GOURLAY: Each department supplies me with the program that they are involved with, but the progress reports as such would not be available at this time. MR. COWAN: The Minister has indicated that each department, under the on-line departments, provides him with information as to the programs that are currently being undertaken under the direction of that department.

I would ask the Minister if, in that document, they also provide the Minister with an analysis of how the program is going, recommendations as to what changes should be made, any sort of indication as to any problems that might be experienced so that the Minister then can take those concerns forward and discuss them with the appropriate persons at the annual meeting. MR. GOURLAY: Yes, the types of things you are mentioning is an ongoing procedure and not something that just happens at one point in the year. MR.

COWAN: So the Minister then is in fact receiving ongoing reports as to the progress of each of the activities taking place under the Northlands Agreement; am I correct in that assumption? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister, Mr. Chairperson, then, what happens to those reports once they reach his hands? MR. GOURLAY: These are reviewed and discussed with other Ministers and handled as required. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

It has just been brought to my attention, and perhaps we can revert back to it for one moment, and I'm reading now from the Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement 1976-8 1 Progress Report for the Year 1977-78. It says that the first annual progress report covering programming for 1976-77 was published in the Fall of 1977.

If that is the case, and the Minister indicated that was not the case in his statements and I would hope he would take this opportunity either to correct this written document or to correct his statements earlier, but if that is the case, then one would have to assume that the report for 1978-79 would have been presented at the Fall meeting of 1979. Was that not the case, as it would appear according to this, Mr. Chairperson? MR. GOURLAY: There seems to be maybe some confusion on our part regarding the documents we are talking about. I can take this under advisement and report back this evening on it. MR.

COWAN: I'm not certain, Mr. Chairperson, whether we will be on this item this evening or not, but I would appreciate the reporting back, and we can carry it further under the Minister's Salary, if necessary. There is some confusion and I would just hope that the confusion that is at that end of the table would not be foisted upon this end of the tabl, because it is rather important that we do understand fully the activities that are taking place in regard to the Northlands Agreement. The Minister indicated that once he got those progress reports, that they were then reviewed by his staff.

What happens to them at that poiint? MR. GOURLAY: Appropriate action is taken with them. 4290

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 MR. COWAN: Are those reports made public in any respect, Mr. Chairperson? MR. GOURLAY: No, they are not. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister if he is aware that under

Section 8 of the Agreement, entitled Public Information and Participation - I alm ost said Participaction there for a moment - under Public In formation and Particip ation, it reads: In order to encourage the participation of no rthern peop le in the development init iatives described in this agreeme nt, Cana da and the province agree to ensure that information regarding past perfo rmance, the purpose and objectiv es, progress and future directions of all initiatives under this Agreement shall be made available regularly to the people of northern Manitoba.

I would ask the Minister if the reports that are being presented to him, and are at this point the only reports that we have or that we know of that are being made with regard to recent activities, are not being presented to the public, is that not in fact a breach of that particular

section of the Agreement? MR. GOURLAY: Reports are made available to the public and to each community. MR. COWAN: But those are not the reports that the Minister is receiving; is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: Those are annual reports that are provided. MR. COWAN: Then I would ask the Minister if he can confirm that those annual reports are outdated as of the present time; in other words, the last one that we have is 1977-78, and we were told by the Minister not to expect one for several months now. Is that not a fact? MR.

GOURLAY: 1977-78 is the last one that is available. 1978-79 is going to print and should be available in two months. MR. COWAN: The Min ister indicates that it is going to print. Is it going to print right now? MR. GOURLAY: I understand that this report of 1978-79 has been delayed because of the third-year review, and maybe normally it would have been out sooner. MR. COWAN: That is interesting, Mr. Chairperson, because now the Mi nister is saying somet hing contradictory to what he said before.

Before he said that the procedures were being followed perfectly, as they have been in the past, and now he is telling us that, wel l, perhaps in this in stance it is an extraordinary situation and the report has been delayed. I find that interesting, but I would ask the Minis ter the specific question that I addressed to him before and that is, is this report currently going to press at this time, as he indicated just a moment ago? MR. GOURLAY: I understand within a couple of weeks. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister to be more explicit in his detailing of the status of that report.

Has that report been drafted? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. MR. COWAN: Is that draft in final form? MR. GOURLAY: It's in its final form except for a few final word corrections. MR. COWAN: Well, in order to enable this committee to more fully review the estimates of the Mi nister in regard spe cifically to No rthla nds Agreement, is the Minister prepared to xerox a copy of that report and present it to this committee on the basis that we understand that it is in draft form only and that we do not take it as a completed report? MR. GOURLAY: Apparently, I'm not at liberty to do that. MR.

COWAN: I'd ask the Minister why he's not at liberty to do that, then? MR. GOURLAY: It's a federal-provincial agreement, and the agreement is that it will come out in its final printed form. MR. COWAN: I would like the Minister to point out in this report where it says it will come out in its final printed form and where it says that members of the Legislative Assembly, and in particular, members of Her Majesty's Loyal Oppos ition shall not have access to that report in order to competently and completely and fully review the procee ding s under the Northlands Agreement.

I'd like the Minister to answer this question if he will, and that is, does he not believe that being able to have that report before us now during these estimates procedures would enable us to more fully examine the Minister's activities under this particular

section and thereby perform a greater service, not only to our constituents but to his constituents, because the Northlands Agreement does in fact, affect many areas, and that we would in that way be able to improve upon our role as both opposition and gover nment? Would he agree with that statement? MR. GOURLAY: The decision to table the reports in their final printed form is a decision made by the joint managers. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister to answer my question though. Would it not enable us to better perform our function if we had that report here? MR.

GOURLAY: It probably would, although we could have been in estimates two months ago, too. MR. COWAN: I'd just suggest to the Minister we could have had the report two months ago, too. So the fact is that we are not, in fact, able to, as fully as we should be able to, investigate and examine these estimates because of procedures that the Minister has finally admitted to are extraor dinar y and procedures that are not in keeping with past 4291

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 practices, and procedures which I suggest will act to the detriment of northerners. So having seen that, I am now certain that we will be here until 4:30, because we are going to have to go through the progress report, commu nity by community, in order to update ourselves as to what is happening in special areas.

I'm not saying we will have to examine every project, because that would be far too lengthy a procedure and I'm certain that it's not necessary, but there have been some changes that have been made that are going to have profound impact and therefore, I believe we should, as members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition and as members of the government, review them at least briefly in order to acq uaint ourselves with developments that have taken place during the previous year.

The Min ister mentioned earlier that the Canada­ Manitoba Northlands Agreement progress report for 1978-79 had been, in fact, delayed because they had completed a third review, 1979. I have that review before me, and I'd like to ask the Minis ter a couple of questions but I see he wishes to answer . . . MR. GOURLAY: Just to clarify a couple of points, the publication that's coming out in August, this coming August, will be for 1978-79, and the 1979-80 would not be available until next year some time. MR. COWAN: When would the 1979-80 be available next year?

When does the Mi nister anticipate that report being tabled? MR. GOURLAY: I unde rstand that it could be available as early as January, 1981. MR. COWAN: So in fact, the 1978-79 will be, if we can use that Janua ry date as a basis, will be approximately seven months late. Is that not correct? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, it would be approximately seven months after the end of the fiscal year. MR. COWAN: But it will be seven months after when one would normally expect the report to be tabled. Is that correct? MR.

GOURLAY: I wouldn't expect that they would be able to table the report immediately after the end of the fiscal year. It would take some time to tabulate the information. MR. COWAN: Well, we'll go back to the points we were trying to proceed upon. I think we've examined as much as we can, the delay in the reporting mechanism.

We're on the record as suggesting that that delay is in appropriate, so I would ask the Minister, according to his third year review, Page 2, it states that, in the fi rst paragraph, that the Ministers responsible for the agreement decided that the review of the surface transportation program, to be effective, would have to be done in light of progress in the other ten programs and of current circumstances in Manitoba ' s north. That would indicate that there was, in fact, an extensive review of the other ten programs that were undergone before this third year review was written.

Can the Min ister ind icate if that was a fact, and can he also provide us with documentation as to that review of the other ten programs? MR. GOURLAY: This third year review was tabled a year ago, and it involved the complete review of the program at the time. MR. COWAN: In that same paragraph, it states They, and they as speaking to the Min isters, agreed that it was essential to ensure that the review encompassed a process of a consultation, not only with the various agencies involved in funding or delivering programs under the agreement but, more particularly, with nor thern residents and organizations.

I would ask the Minister if he could table a list of meetings that were held between northern organizations and northern residents in regard to discussing this third year review. MR. GOURLAY: I can get that and have it sent out. It's not available right now. MR. COWAN: The Min ister indicated that he can get it and have it sent out to me. I've heard that before in the estimates and I always get it after the estimates. I'm wondering if we could have it by this evening. MR. GOURLAY: evening. I'l l try and have that here this MR. COWAN: I would appreciate the Minister's efforts in that regard.

On Page 5 of the report, under Sector A, Resources and Commun ity Economic Development, Numb er 3, it says, The original allocation of 5 million will be expanded to 14.9 million by transfer of funds from other sectors. Can the Min ister indicate which sectors those funds will be transferred from? Or can he point me to a portion of the book where that information might be available in table form? MR. GOURLAY: If you can refer to Page 8. MR. COWAN: The Minister has indicated that we can find details as to those changes in allocations on Page 8. MR. GOURLAY: There's a table there, Page 8. MR.

COWAN: It says under Program 3, Sector A, Resource Development Employment that the original allocation was zero dollars, and that the revised allocations recommended by the review was 8, 125,000.00. Can the Mi nister ind icate primarily where that 8 million will be spent? MR. GOURLAY: Parks and Forestry. MR. COWAN: I'm sorry, I missed the second part of the Min ister's answer - Parks and ... ? MR. GOURLAY: Forestry. MR. COWAN: And Forestry.

Can the Min ister then ind icate what specific programs are planne d in regard to that sector and how many jobs, permanent full-time jobs, will be created by the expenditure of 8, 125,000.00? 4292

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 MR. GOURLAY: We don't have that information available right now and it would probably take about a couple of days to provide it for you. We would be pleased to do that. MR. COWAN: I'm glad to hear the Minister will be pleased to do that and I understand the difficulty in providing that on the spur of the moment and will eagerly await detailing of that particular allocation, because I believe it to be important.

You know, one has to - if I can just sidetrack for one moment - one has to, when reviewing the Northlands Agreement, remember that one of the pri mary purpos es of it was to provide jobs, permanent full-time jobs, for northern persons. That was decided upon because of the need that we have witne ssed and we have been able to document in the north for those types of jobs. If I can just read from Page 17,

Schedule A of the Canada-Manitoba No rt hlands Subsid iary Agree ment, it says: To provide adequate levels of income and employment in remote communiti es, some 3,500 jobs must be created in 1976, with the job gap growing to 7,000 by 1981, unless positive action is taken. Since we are now close to that 1981 date, I would ask the Minister if he can indicate how many full-time permanent jobs have been created as a result of the expenditur es of mo ney under the Northlands Agreement, in general terms?

I'm not asking him for a detailed commun ity-by-community, but I would ask him, in general erms, how many have been created? And also, to break it down just a bit further, which I feel is a legitima te question, I would ask the Minister to indicate how many of those jobs, in fact, went to persons residing in northern Manitoba previous to their job? MR. GOURLAY: We don't have that information available right now and it might take a few weeks to provide that, but we can do that for you. MR. COWAN: Agai n, Mr.

Chairperson, I would appreciate the Minister providing that material to us as early as possible and I again understand that there might be some delay in putting it together, and look forward to receiving it within a number of weeks. On Pa ge 6, Sector C, Transportation and Communication, the report indicates, The strategy for the surface transportation program be adjusted to allow for the strengthening of regional roads, while continuing to pursue the remote access objectiv es through a combination of surface and air modes.

I would ask the Minister if there is in fact any intent to pursue the remote access objectives, if there are any programs that are in pla ce now that will enable access to commu nities, remote communiti es, that do not already have such access under this particular section? MR. GOURLAY: All of the projects that were listed under the terms of the Remote Agreement will be fulfilled. One such example is the road that is being compl eted into Cross Lake at the present time. MR. COWAN: Yes, these are all projects that have been onstream for some time.

I'd ask the Minister if there are any new projects that are anticipated in regard to pro viding surface access to remote communiti es. In other words, the road to Cross Lake was not intended originally to end at Cross Lake, that there was supposed to be an entire network built throughout the north in regard to surface roads and that each commu nity led to a different community, or many of the communi ties led to a different commun ity, and that the roads were intended to be continued.

I would ask the Minister if his government is still pursuing that objective and what roads they have planned in regard to connecting up communities that are not already serviced by surface roads. MR. GOURLAY: We are working on that and it is part of the negotiations taking place on the next 5- year or 10-year agreement. MR. COWAN: So there are, in fact, right now no other roads anticipated by the Minister in regard to this particular section? MR. GOURLAY: Actually, we are anticipating many more under the new Agreement. MR.

COWAN: But the Minister cannot tell me at this time where those roads would go or when they should be com pl eted . In other words, perhaps anticipation was a wrong word, there are no roads that the Minister can document where commitments have been made in regard to extending this access to remote com mun ities by surface mode s of transportation? MR. GOURLAY: That would be available during the next set of estimates. MR. COWAN: I certa inly hope it is available during the next estimates.

I'm not certain that I share the Minister's optimism, and that's because I have been talking to people who are intima tely involved in reviewing the Northlands Agreement and reviewing the work of the government in regard to negotiating and reviewing the work of the government in regard to applying themselves to the original objectives of the No rt hlands Agree ment, and th ey too are somewhat discouraged and disappointed.

So I hope that the Minister's enthusiasm will win out over what seems to be some very realistic attitudes and opinions that are coming from people that have inf ormed me that they are intima tely involved in reviewing what has been done. I would ask the Minister if he can indicate where Eme rgenc y Evacu ation Servi ces, acco rding to

Section 4 of Sector C, are not adequate as of the present. MR. GOURLAY: This report covers the first three years and this publication was out a year ago. The re maining two years, the upgrading of the Emergency Evacuation Services will be completed, hopefully by the Department of Hig hways. MR. COWAN: If you look at the next

section on Page 7, it says that the original remote airstrip improvement allocation of 9.2 million will be reduced to 7.4 million, with the residual tra nsferred to Sector A, and Sector A, of course, being Resources and 4293

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 Community Economic Development. Can the Min ister indicate which projects have been stopped as a result of that 1.8 million reduction in the Remote Airstrip Improvement Program. MR. GOURLAY: No projects have been stopped. The 9.2 million budgeted was not required to do all the work. MR. COWAN: So the Min ister is indicating that within two years every commu nity in northern Manitoba will have adequate emergency evacuation services by airstrip? MR.

GOURLAY: guess it depends on what is meant by the definition of the word adequate, but what was proposed under this Agreement will be completely done. MR. COWAN: Then there is no intention on the part of the Min ister to expand this program if it came to his attention that there were other proposals that were not anticipated initially that are not being met? MR. GOURLAY: We had planned to continue it under the new Agreement. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Min ister then to go on to Page 13 of the report. We have a num ber of programs listed on the bottom of the page.

I would ask the Min ister if he can give us some indication, and I'll read the list off, as to the status of these programs: No. 1 is Special ARDA; is it continuing and is it continuing at a level of activity that it has seen in the past number of years? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, it is. MR. COWAN: The Wild Fur Agreement? The same questions, Mr. Chairperson. MR. GOURLAY: This

part is being handled under the Department of Natural Resources. MR. COWAN: Is the program continuing? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. I wouldn't want to comment as to what stage it is at. It is handled under that department. MR. COWAN: I realize, as we go through this list, we are going to run into areas that are handled under other departments, but as the Min ister is the co-ordinating Minister in this regard, I would hope that he could get the information for us in either letter form - I don't expect him to have it by the time his estimates end - but if he would forward it to us at his earliest convenience.

The Indian Economic Development Fund, can the Mini ster report as to the status of that? MR. GOURLAY: We don't have anything to do with the Indian Economic Devel opment Fund, that's administered under the Department of Indian Affairs. MR. COWAN: Would you not discuss that at your annual meeting, Mr. Chairperson? MR. GOURLAY: No. MR. COWAN: I would imagine then I would receive the same answer for the Indian Agricultur al Program? MR. GOURLAY: That's right. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Min ister, in regard to the CEDF, the Commun ity Economic Development Fund, if that is operating at the same level as previously? MR.

GOURLAY: Well, we had a good discussion in the Economic Development Committee with respect to CEDF and there will be further discussions with respect to the development agencies that deal specifically with the operational moneys of the CEDF. MR.

COWAN: As the Minister knows full well, that in that particular discussion there were some very serious concerns raised, I believe by the Member for Rupertsland, and I'm certain he would like to pursue those during these estimates procedures to try to develop, in his own mind, where the Min ister stands with regard to changes in procedures that have been implemented under his administration, so I will allow that item to go until such a time as the Member for Rupertsland has the floor.

I would ask the Minister about the next program, SNEP, the Special No rthern Native Emplo yment Program, can he indicate the status of that program? MR. GO URLAY: transferred to CEDF. The SNEP Program was MR. COWAN: So in fact the SNEP Program no longer exists. Would that be a correct

interpretation of the situation as it stands today? MR. GOURLAY: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (a) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: The Member for Transcona says that it was transferred, and I think that would be the more appropriate way to describe the torturous process that SNEP has undergone, that there is no mone y left and that it in fact has not been transferred as a program to CEDF, but rather the Minister is hoping that CEDF will take up the slack, and of course CEDF can't take up the slack, given the torturous changes that CEDF has undergone as a result of the Min ister's changes in policy. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Honou rable Minis ter is wanting to interject here. MR. GOURLAY: I would like to correct the Member for Churchill. There were SNEP funds transferred to CEDF, half million dollars, as a matter of fact. MR. COWAN: Are there any staff for the program, Special Northern Native Employment Program? MR. GOURLAY: No. MR. COWAN: I didn't think there were, Mr . Chairperson. 4294

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, can the Min ister indicate the status of that? MR. GO URLAY: That's handled under the Department of Agriculture. MR. COWAN: Is it still proceeding as it was intended to at the levels of activity that one would have anticipated. MR. GOURLAY: It is still operating, I am not sure as to the level. MR. COWAN: The report on Page 19 indicates that local consulta tion, second paragraph, Local consultation process began by in viting written submissions, follo wed by meetings with various interest groups.

This leads from a question I had asked earlier from the Minister and I would like to just elabor ate upon it, and ask him for further information. It says that, The intent of this process was to attain local views and attitudes and the objectives and implementation of the agreement, and to discuss proposed directions for the last two years of the agreement.

It is indicated in the report that written submissions and letters were received from the Northern Association of Community Councils, the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Northern Manitoba Commercial Fisheries Association, and that meetings were held with the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood, the MMF Executive, the MMF Thom pson Regional Representatives, 3 regional sessions with NACC co mmuniti es, and the Interlake Reserves Development Council (the Interlake Indian Chiefs).

Would the Minister be prepared to table the letters that were written in regard to the submissions and letters that were written in regard to requests from his department, and also table min utes of the meetings that were held in order to discuss options for the next two years, and also to discuss opinions that were presented by the different organizations in regard to how the Manitoba Northlands Agreement was functioning to date? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, this is a

summary of all those meetings and submissions. MR. COWAN: Yes, but the reports themselves, the submi ssions and letters are a summ ary of the individual organizations and individual's feelings. This is a

summary that is presented to us by the federal and provincial governments. I would like to see firsthand what the first line parties had to say about how this agreement has been working and what they perceive for the next number of years, so I would ask the Minister again if he would be prepared to table the information that I just requested. MR. GO URLAY: I under stand that we could provide these; it would take some xeroxing and that to - we'll get them for you. MR.

COWAN: Again, I understand that there might be some time delay and appreciate the fact that xeroxing has to be undertaken and don't wish to rush the Min ister, but hope that he will do a complete and thorough job. Also, on the next paragraph it says, Several meetings resulted in requests for smaller regional sessions, which were also held . . . If he could, at a later date, detail when and where those were held? On Page 20,

Part 6, it says, One organization expressed a desire to deliver some programs under the agreement. I wonder if the Min ister could elaborate upon that and tell us which organization it was, and what the results of their request happened to be. MR. GOU RLAY: I under stand the MMF had requested the deliv ery of this program but the province felt that they wished to do this through the province. MR. COWAN: So it was the Manitoba Metis Federation that, in fact, had suggested that they might be able to deliver the program, and it was the province that had denied them that request.

I would ask the Min ister the reasons for such a denial. MR. GOURLAY: To correct the earlier statement I made, some of the programs apparently are being del ivered by the MMF , such as the Relocation Program in Thompson. MR. COWAN: Is that the only program that is being delivered by the MMF? MR. GOURLAY: We think probably that is the only program under this Northlands Agreement. MR.

COWAN: Could the Min ister provide us with an opinion as to how the MMF is delivering that service, what his attitudes are towards it, and whether or not he believe they are doing a capable job and whether or not be believes that perhaps there may be room for added activity of this nature in the future? MR. GOURLAY: I might add that program comes under the Minister of Labour, but I have had the opportunity to inquire of the Minister regarding that program and he feels that it has worked out real well. MR.

COWAN: Did the Mini ster of Labour not indicate to the Minister of Northern Affairs that from time to time he might have been dissatisfied with specific details of that program? MR. GOURLAY: No, I don't recall him mentioning any concerns. As far as what he indicated to me, the program had worked quite well. MR. COWAN: Is that program then continuing? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. MR. COWAN: Is that program then continuing at levels that it has worked under in the past? In other words, by that I mean staffing levels and also the number of individuals that are being serviced by the program. MR.

GOURLAY: I couldn't be specific on the actual level as to the delivery of that program. I have the 4295

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 feeling that it remains constant, but I wouldn't want to be certain on that point. MR. COWAN: I would hope that the Minister could report back to me in that regard as to that specific program and if he can table any progress reports on that program, as well as documentation that might be of a public nature. MR. GOURLAY: Well, this is a program under the Department of Labour. I am not sure that I can fulfill all the requests, if I start taking one side; there could be numerous programs to co-orindate, and those are handled under specific departments. MR. COWAN: That, in fact, Mr.

Chairperson, is one of the problems with the agreement as it stands now, and that is that it has been so divided up and fragmented that the Mi nister respons ible for negotiating the agreement in the future, or negotiating a continuation of the agreement, doesn't know what programs are working, doesn't know what programs aren't working; he is not familiar with the specific details of the programs, and therefore when the Min ister has to pay a co-ordinating role he will find it extremely difficult because of the fragmentation of the delivery of the programs.

This is something that members on this side have suggested will act to the detriment of the program and also will make life more difficult for the Minister, and, in fact, our suggestions of the past few moments indicate that that is in fact the case; that this fragmentation is not going to work to the benefit of the program; that it will in fact complicate matters; that it will in fact build in redundancies; and it will in fact insure that the program is not the most effective program possible.

I would hope that the Mi nister, as the co­ ordinating Mini ster, could provide me with what materials he has in regard to the Reloca tion Program, so as we can understand, ourselves, as to how acquainted he is with the specific programs under The Northlands Agreement. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde (Portage la Prairie): The Honourable Minister. MR. GOURLAY: Yes, I am wondering why the honourable member didn't question the Min ister of Labour on these points.

He would be quite familiar with the Relocation Program, and I think it is unreasonable to expect me to have all the details on the various programs admin istered by the department. MR. COWAN: I don't believe it is unreasonable, Mr. Chairperson. I believe that the Min ister has his staff with him, I believe they are very capable staff. I have watched them over the last couple of days. They seem intent on following the procedures.

They seem to be providing the Minister with accurate and adequate information when asked, and I am just a bit surprised that in this particular instance we can't get that kind of information.

I would assure the Minister that I don't expect him to carry around in his head all the details of all the programs that his department is responsible for, nor do I expect any Minister to carry around inside them all the details of the programs for which they are responsible, but I would hope that they would have access to the details, because if they don't, then they are probably not performing to the level that they could if they did have that access. I would hope that the Minister does have access.

As to why the Min ister of Labour wasn 't questioned in this regard, I am certain if the Min ister of Northern Affairs reviews the record over the past number of years, as well as letters that I have written personally to the Minister, he will find that in fact we have taken an interest in this program, and in fact we have questioned the Minister, but we wanted to, in this instance, discuss this program with the Min ister responsible for co-ordinating the whole program in order to assure ourselves that fragmentation isn't far more destructive than we had anticipated.

I am fairly certain now that our initial fears were founded. I would just suggest to the Minister that if he could get inf ormation back to us on that we would appreciate it as co-ordinating Minister. On Page 22 of the report, entitled Sector A - Resources and Community Economic Development. I am going to read a couple of sections here and I would ask for the Minister's comments on them.

It says, Sector A was thus established with the following stated objective: and this was in the beginning of the progam, To provide fi nancial assistance and to permit the unde rtaking of preplanning, and I would like the Min ister now to note these words specifically, and other activities necessary to enable the development of viable proposals which may be assisted under existing federal and provincial financial support programs or through private institutions. The sector will actively encou rage a high degree of participation from nor thern people.

Furthermore, any regional initiatives, which are identified or assisted through these means, are intended to dir ectly complement and assist the urgent need to encou rage and emphasize community economic development. I have asked the Minister to note all those words after the word preplanning. I would ask the Min ister then to turn to Page 29, where it says that, The sector objective be broadened to accommodate this change. More specifically, it is recommended that the resource and commu nity economic development sector objective in

Schedule A of the agreement be revised to read ... , and I believe that is the one that I just read and here is the revision: The objective is to provide financial assistance and to permit the undertaking of preplanning - so far, so good - and resource information assembly and to develop the natural resources of the region. That is a fairly major change in the objectives of the program. I would ask the Minister if he could comment on why he felt that change was necessary. MR. GOURLAY: I am not sure that I can answer that question. I wasn't around at the time that change was initiated. MR.

COWAN: Hasn't the Minister wondered why such a broad ranging change would be made? Has he not taken the opportunity to check, and if he hasn't, perhaps he could now take the opportunity to 4296

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 check with his staff as to why they believe that change was necessary? MR. GOURLAY: I understand it was a way of bringing the Parks and Forestry un der the agreement, which was not otherwise provided for. MR. COWAN: The Minister is telling me now and expects me to accept that the ripping of the guts from that particular objective was intended only to bring the Parks and Forestries under this particular sector. Could not it have been done and have, at the same time, left in some, what I believe to be, very im portant concepts.

Those concepts to be specifically, The sector will actively encourage a high degree of participation from northern people. By the removal of that sentence, does that mean that the government is no longer actively encouraging that high degree of participation? Also it says that, Regional in itiatives which are identified or assisted through these means are intended to directly compliment and assist the urgent need to encou rage and em phasize commu nity economic development.

Are we to believe by the removal of those that the Minister is suggesting that we should no longer be encouraging and emphasizing commu nity economic development? Because that in fact it what the change in this particular objective will result in if it is followed. And why would one change it if one does not anticipate continuing and following up on that particular change? MR. GOURLAY: I really see no change. We still consult with the community councils regarding these issues. MR. COWAN: Then why was the wording changed?

If in fact nothing was changed in the methodology, why was it necessary to so totally emasculate that objective of Sector A? MR. GOURLAY: Actually it was really broadened and things were going well as a result of it. MR. COWAN: We might - well, I don't think we will - but we probably should discuss this for quite some time, because I would suggest to the Min ister that it was not broadened at all, as a matter of fact that it was severely limited, and that the Minister has taken out what I believe to be some very important concepts in regard to how this No rthlands Agreement is supposed to work.

I think the Minister will find that what we are talking about here is symptomatic of his whole government's reaction to Northlands, that they are stripping the guts, they are ripping the guts from the Northlands Agreement, that they are no longer committed to the type of activity which was anticipated by the Northlands Agreement and that their activity in the north has suggested that. That, in fact, we are seeing a total change in attitude; one which we had suspected and one which was carried out in regard to how this program should work for northern Manitobans, and that's who it should work for.

I would suggest that we on this side are fairly upset and fairly discouraged that such a change in the objective, the wording of the objective, would be considered necessary by the government. I would ask the Minister then if he can indicate what is happening currently with the Manpower Development Services? MR. GOURLAY: What page is that on? MR. COWAN: We're on page 39 now, program 3. MR.

GOURLAY: I can give you the list of activities that are going on under the Employment Services which is actually really under the Department of Labour and Manpower: Em ployment support and counselling services; job information system; referral and placement service, including assistance to northerners participating in all provincial Manpower programs; may assist in the implementation of on­ the-job training program with employers in private sector; counselling services in support of referral and placement process; and the relocation programs at Thompson, Flin Flon, and Leaf Rapids; Northern Youth Program; staff operating out of Winnip eg, and this is on-the-job training and education program for professional, para-professional; techn ical administrative jobs in both the public and private sector.

This is under the New Careers Program, northern component. The target level is 64 full-year trainees, and the job areas may include community health workers, corrections, chemical abuse, day care workers, air mechanics, recreation workers, and lab assistants. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR.

HARVEY BOSTROM: Since we are discussing programs that have operated along with Northlands program and are also compl im ent ary to the Northlands program, I wonder if the Min ister could explain or elaborate what role the Communi ties Economic Develop ment Fund now plays in the delivery of_ Northlands programs? MR. GOUR LAY: Under this program there are 7 staff man years located in Winnipeg; provides initial and ongoing assistance to local entrepreneurs in remote commun itie s rega rding all aspects of busin ess operations, in cluding acco unting and marketing, etc.

Assistance in cludes general management assistance, financial statement preparation, financial evaluation and formal client courses where judged feasible and possible. It is antici pated that some 85 clie nts will receive assistance from this program. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate what the funding is al located for this particular program he just outlined, for the fiscal year 1980-81? MR. GOURLAY: 148,000.00. MR.

BOSTROM: I would like to ask the Minister a specific qu estion related to the Commu nties Economic Development Fund, and it is related to a loan and/or loans made to the Diamond Willow Inn. It is listed in the Manitoba Gazette and also in the list which the Mi nister supplied to me after the committee meeting in the Legislature here last week. There was a loan of 581,000 over five years, as 4297

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 reported in the Manitoba Gazettej. I would like to ask the Minister if that is the only loan made to the Diamond Willow Inn, or if, in addition to that, there was a loan of 248,000 which was made and recorded on the list which he provided to me? In other words, there were two loans, 248,000, and 581,000, made to the Diamond Willow Inn. I wonder if the Minister could indicate what the economic rationale was for making these loans which amount to, in total, about 40 percent or more of the total loans made by the Communities Economic Development Fund in their last fiscal year? · MR.

GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I don't feel that this is the appropriate place to be discussing the estimates of the CEDF. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)( 1)- pass. The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the Communi ties Economic Development Fund reports to this Mini ster, and we are discussing a part of the estimates, Northlands Agreements, which relate to the operation of the Commun ities Ec onomic Development Fund, and there is a particular question we have with respect to this one loan, which is a massive loan, made to one company.

In addition to that I believe there were other loans made to the individuals involved in this company. This represents a substantial amount of the total operation of the Communi ties Econo mic Development Fund, as I indicated over 800,000 of loans indicated in the list, 829,000, plus an amount indicated in the Manitoba Gazette of May 17, 1980 of 5,000 of loans made to the principles of this business. So, Mr. Chairman, that amounts to a total of 833,000 of loans made to what appears to be two in dividuals to establish a hotel in northern Manitoba.

I think it is a substantial amount of money which the Min ister should be able to answer for since I belie ve The Commu nities Economic Development Fund Act requir es that any loan over 75,000 must be approved by the Min ister. That loan must go to the Minister and I am sure a loan of this amount must have gone to the Min ister, not only to the Minister, I'm sure the Min ister must have discussed this in Cabinet, so he must be aware of and familiar with this particular loan above all others. I am not asking about the day-to-day operation of the Commu nities Economic Developme nt Fund.

I realize that the CEDF is operated by a board of directors that make their own in dependent decisions on any loans up to 75,000, but loans over that amount go by statute, by law, to the Min ister for approval, so he must be aware of the loan and I would ask him to explain to the committee what the rationale is for this particular loan. I would ask him what the status, the financial status is of the principles that are involved in this business? If they put any money into the operation themselves, or if the total amount of 800 and . MR. CH AIRMAN, Morris McGregor: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR.

GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. We are not discussing CEDF here. The Northlands is not involved with loan money. We spent some time a week or two ago discussing the CEDF in the Economic Development Com mittee and the honourable member had full opportunity at that time to raise these questions which cou ld have been appropriately discussed and fully gone into at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland on the same point of order. MR .

BOSTROM: On the point of order, the information which I am requesting, which the form the basis of the questions which I am posing at this time, was supplied to me after the meeting which we had that day. I asked the Minister for a list of the loans that were made over the last fiscal year of the company, which was not available on the day we discussed and was subsequently made available to me, and I am asking the questions based on that information.

I don't know what other occasion I have to discuss this item other than with respect to the estimates for this department, and the estimates which relate to the Mini ster's Salary particularly. When one considers that this Minister reports for the Communi ties Economic Development Fund, and as the Minister responsible for the CEDF he must take responsibility for making this loan.

Now it may be argue d that one canno t ask this particular que stion under this item that's under consideration right now, although I would argue that because we are discussing the Northlands Agreement which is related to the Communities Economic Development Fund, aspects of the Northlands Agreement relate to the Communities Economic Development Fund. They operate a program which the Min ister just described to us, where they provide management advice and services to northern clients, or clients that are within the juris diction of the Commu nit ies Economic Development Fund.

So I would expect that the Min ister would have possibly a group within his Commu nities Economic Development Fund, or at least one person who would responsi ble for overseeing this massive loan to two individuals in northern Manitoba. I think since we are discussing the two in this item, the two issues of Northland funding and also the operations of the Commun ities Economic Developme nt Fund, as it relates to Northland funding, then I would argue that this is the appropriate place to discuss this question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: On the same point of order, Mr.

Chairman, I think we are discussing, if I may read here, the Agreements Management and Co-ordination, responsible for the management and co-ordination of programming and funding as defined by the Canada-Manitoba Northlands and Special ARDA Agreements and the Northern Flood Agreement. And now we are under, I understand, Mr. Chairman, 4 .. (a)(1) under Salaries and Wages, in Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement, and I don't see that it says anything about CEDF. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona on the same point of order. MR.

PARASIUK: To the point of order, Special ARDA, the staff who admin ister Special ARDA and 4298

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 make the decisions for Special ARDA would be under this particular appropriation of Salaries and Wages; and the point is CEDF provides bridge financing for Special ARDA projects and that is the connection. The project would be a Special ARDA project and that's why it's entirely legitimate for this item to be discussed here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. GOURLAY: ARDA comes under 4.(c). We are currently dealing in 4.(a). MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIU K: Yes, res ponsible for the management and co-ordination of programs and funding, that's their ultimate responsibility, not just the amount in there. The funding as defined by the Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement and the Special ARDA agreements, specifically outlined, broken out in the sub-appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well it's the opinion of the Chair, it would seem as though we could fit this in. If it isn't answered now, it certainly could fit in 4.(c)( 1) and (2) so I would say continue (a) (

b) and try to maybe give the staff some time to have those answers by the time we do get to (c). That's the Chair's suggestion only. The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to leave this question until whichever item it comes under most logically. However, I must insist that we discuss this item under this Min ister's estimates, because ... MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I'm not prepared to discuss . . . loans in this committee. We had the opportunity to do that some time ago, and if you got information after that time, I can't help that. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, this Minis ter is responsible for the Communit ies Economic Development Fund. Part of his responsibility as a Min ister is the overseeing of the operations of the Commu nities Economic Development Fund. And when the fund makes loans amounting to some 834,000, that is a loan which must come to the Minister for approval. The Minister must be aware of that loan; the Min ister must take responsibility for that loan; the Mini ster must be able to answer questions about that kind of loan.

So I expect that within these estimates somewhere, we demand an answer from the Minister as to the rationale for making such a loan, and particularly when one considers that the loan is made at 12 1/2 percent, when interest rates are running at 17 and 18 percent. This represents a massive subsidy to two individuals, so I would ask the Min ister to indicate to us what the rationale is for this government to personally approve such a loan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Inasmuch as it is past 4:30, committee, if we do run over on this one, we are interfering with our Private Members' Hour.

Possibly we will have an answer over the supper hour, unless the Honourable Min ister wants to add something. MR. GOURLAY: Well, CEDF is not part of this committee. And so I am not prepared to discuss CEDF loans in this committee. -(I nterjection)- I'm not talking Special ARDA. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chairman will be leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 o'clock (tonight). SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 39 of the Main Estimates, Department of Education.

Resolution No. 51, Clause 2. Research, (

a) Salaries-pa ss - the Honourable Min ister. HON. KEITH COSENS: Mr. Chairman, there were a number of questions that I took as notice yesterday and I have that information here for the honourable members. I will send it over to the Education critic on the other side of the House. Mr.

Chairman, if I could continue, the Research Branch that we now have under consideration is responsible for the conduct of all the research activities essential to support effective planning, policy making, management and assessment of those aspects of elementary, secon dary, and post­ second ary education for which my Mini stry is responsible. It functions as a service unit to all sections of the department; as such it does not have operationa l responsibi li ties for any programs.

Reporting directly to the Deputy Minis ter, this Branch facilitates and assists with planning and assessment of the total operation of the department. MR. CH AIRM AN: (1 )- pass; (2)- pass - the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JA MES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I believe that we would seek a breakdown of this department as to the number of persons and whether there have been any changes over the past year. We would also be interested to know what research projects are being developed by this section, and perhaps the Min ister could inform us of what the department or what the

section produced over the last year. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, in response to the Member for St. Vital, there have been no changes in the number of SMYs in this department, it was 11 last year, it will be 11 in 1980-81. The department has completed a considerable num ber of projects, and I can go through those projects for the information of the honou rable member. They completed a study of counselling and guidance services in Junior High Schools of this province. They did a feasibility study on program accounting, budgeting. They did a special study on teacher demand supply, the Man power outlook in Manitoba.

They did a study of the employment of the Manitoba teacher education graduates from 1974 to 1978. They have produced an annotated bibliography on declining enrollments, an analysis of the costs and benefits of teaching computer science in Manitoba schools, an assessment of the utilization 4299

Tuesday, 3 June, 1980 and effectiveness of instructional media services and multi-media kits, an eval uation of the nine-month school year in Frontier School Division. They are responsible for the conduct of a conference on declining school enrollments, which was held last year. They have comple ted a study on the elemen tary-secondary school enrollment projections 1978 to 1984. A study has been completed on the interprovincial and international migration of children in Manitoba. They have compl eted a study on the decline of teacher entries into Manitoba from 1970 to 1978. They have comple ted a study also, Mr.

Chairman, of the aging of manitoba's teaching force. A study has been also comple ted on the historical analysis of public school enrollments 1970 to 1978, and they also have prod uced a data directory. They have a number of projects that are now in progress, one of them being the utilization and effectiveness of on-air school broadcasts and other ins tructional media services in no rthern schools. They are also conducting a study in actuality of evaluation of the high school computer network. They are also, at this time, involved in a community needs assessment in regard to Keewat in Community College.

They are also involved, Mr. Chairman, in a follow-up survey of vocational education gradua tes from our high schools. They are in the progress, at this time, in a study on post-high school plans of Manitoba high school students. They also, at this time, are working on the implementation of the program accounting budgeting scheme. They are working on the development of an EDP organizational plan and they are also working on enrolments and hours of instruction, K to 12, and the development and piloting of a collection system.

These are some of the major topics that the branch has either completed, or projects that the branch has in progress at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that information. I was not able to write down all of those projects that he mentioned, but they will be in Hansard to refer back to. I want to refer to a couple of them in just a moment, but the Minister indicates, I believe, that there were some 11 staff man years for this particular

section and that there has been no change. The government telephone directory lists 10 names under research. I wonder if the Minister could just clarify for us, please, how many of these are research officers, if that's the right term, and how many of them are support staff. MR. COSENS: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, the honour abl e memb er could pursue some further questioning while I'm getting the particular answer in that regard. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned two of the projects that this

section had been working on, and two of them had to do with PAB. I seem to recall tha t stands for Program An alysis and Budget, or Pr ogram Auditing and Budget, I believe is more correct. -(l nterject ion)­ Program Accounting and Budgeting, right. I wonder if the Minister can tell me, first of all, why this appears twice in his list of projects. Is it a matter of the development of it and then the implementation of it, and could he, perhaps inform the commit tee of just what PAB is all about and how it came into being? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, in regard to the Honourable Member for St.

Vital's first question, ·those 11 staff members in the research department, three are classified as support personnel and eight as professional personnel. In regard to the Program Accou nting and Budgeting program , he is quite corr ect: One of the pr ojects in volved the developmental aspect of this, and the other one, of course, is dealing with the implementation aspect. The program is a program that we hope to have apply provincially in all school divisions.

It will provide some universality, complete similarity in the accounting procedures, in the budgeting procedures for school boards across the province, something that they have been requesting for some time