I Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI Second Session Number 88 • PRELIMINARY REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush r L Friday • 30 November 1990

. a 4 . The House niuL at 9:00 am Order, please! Before going into our routine business on behalf of hon. Members I would like to extend a welcome to the public galleries today eighteen people from WISE programme - Women Interested in Successful Employment - with their coordinator, Helen King. Some Hon._Members: Hear, hear! Oral Questions r.._Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

The Minister will be no doubt be aware that the Reitman family owns the controlling shares, or holds most of the controlling shares, in Abitibi-Price. And the Minister, no doubt, will also be aware that the Reitmans , over the last several months in particular, have been divesting themselves of a number of their interests For example, the 12.5 per cent stake they held through GulF Canada in the Hihernia project, as the Minister knows, is now up for sale.

I would like to ask the Minister whether or not he would tell the House whether the Government had been advised that Abitibi-Price paper mills in Newfoundland, at Stephenville and Grand Falls, are possible candidates for divestiture by the Reitman family? The hon. the M i n i s t e r of Fores try and A q r :1 C 1.1 It 1.1 r e Mr.i1tt: No, Mr. Speaker. acknowledge as being a facL every thing that the - AnHon. Member: Can't hear you! '_Speaker: Order, please! r_ Flight: I acknowledge as being factual all, I guess, of the comments the hon. the Leader of the I Opposition made in his

preamble. But to t h i s point in time we have not b e e n notified that Abitibi—Price is a subject of divestiture by the Reitmans or by Abitibi—Price. There has, as he knows, been a restructuring of management, that the Abitibi-Price mill, the Stephenville mill, and a paper mill in Scotland has been put into one unit, u n d e r new management structure; a Vice-President of Abitibi-Price is in charge of that operation. Abitibi-Price, as the Leader of the Opposition would also know, the Grand Falls unit, have b e e n having some difficult times over the past year or so.

They have been in a loss situation, and that has been made public by the company themselve.s and the resident manager. They have also been notified, as he knows, Number 6 has been shut down and there is a lot oF restructuring in the mill. And the local management, the unions and the people who depend on the mill the most have been told at various publio functions by management of Abitibi—Price that the mill must turn around and must become competitive. And unless there was a change recently, there was a time limit set on it.

Ahitibi—Price, the union and the employees and everyone who has an interest, know they have two or three years in Li November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 Ri

order to turn the mill around and make it profitable. That, in itself, causes some people to wonder whether or not it would one time become a subject of divestiture. However, at this point in time, no, Mr. Speaker, we have not been notified. Very recently, for that matter, I have put that question to responsible people with Abitibi and I have always gotten a negative answer, up to the last time the question was posed, that there was no intention, or at least it was not the company's intention to sell the Abitibi-Price mill in Grand Fails. Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Rideout: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his answer. Can the Minister confirm for the House that Government has been advised that Abitibi mills at Stephenville and Grand Falls , along with all Abitibi mills across the country, have been put on a stand-alone basis? In other words, the mills at Grand Falls and Stephenville Tiust show at profit in their own right, there will be no further cross-subsidization of any miils across the Ahitibi system so that, therefore, they must become profit centres, and if they do not become profit centres, they, in fact, go on the block?

Can the Minister tell the House if the Government has been advised of that situation? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. have become profit centres. He is rig it a b o u t I: lie r e s t r u c Lu r i rig which I mentioned earlier, that Abitibi-Price in Stephenville and Grand Falls is no longer , part of their units, they make it on their own. At one point in time, to explain a little, it appeared that if the mill in Grand Falls lost money in a given year of operation and the rest of the Abitibi mills made money, then it was presumed that it was - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr.

Fijg,ht: Right. The fact that Abitibi itself, the conglomerate, was profitablE., then there appeared to be not much problems or worries about Grand Falls. Now, Mr. Speaker, the two units in Newfoundland and the one in Scotland, I guess, have been put on a stand-alone basis, and they have been put on notice that they must tUrn their operation around and they must make a profit. However, in fairness, Mr.

Speaker, the last information that I had, and this is factual information, is that Abitibi-Price recognized that there were problems in Grand Falls, restructuring problems, labour problems, various problems that made their cost of production higher than in some of the othe.r mills in the system, and we have been informed, and they know, that they have some time. As a matter of fact, things are turning around in Grand Falls, or the recent statistics out of the mill, production and cost of production certificates - L . Mr._Speaker: Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, I suppose it de.pends on the way one I find a lot of•loud noise this wants to put the question. Have morning. It is like when a 5erson they become profit centres? No, is in a classroom arid he is trying Mr. Speaker, I do not think they to do something and he. does not L2 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R2

. . . know exactly what, the problem is I have been trying to concentrate on the Minis her's answer and I seem to be distracted. So I ask hon. members please to keep their conversations for outside the House, and I ask the hon. Minister to finish his answer, please. Mr. Flight: Mr. Speaker, I do not think they have been designated as profit centres as such, but everyone knows that the Abitibi-Price Mills in Newfoundland will, over the next two or three years, have to get their operations to such a point where they will stand alone, or they may well be considered for divestiture. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.Rideout: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the minister has confirmed now in parts of previous answers that neither Stephenville nor Grand Falls at the moment are profit centres.

I want to ask the minister whether or not he can tell the House, in view of escalating electricity coCts in the case of Stephenville in particular, and in uiew of a wood supply problem for, both mills , as the minister knows, have officials of Abitibi-Price given the minister any reason to believe that they have confidence that those operations will indeed meet the company standards of stand-alone profit centres over the next, say, three to five years? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. n1P: Mr.

Speaker, in the case of the.S tephenvil'ie milL, I am not sure that the Stephenville mill is not already - it depends on what the mnemnher means by a profit centre, whether or not Stephenuille is making a profit. I think Stephenville is making a profit. Stephenuille is not in the same category, Mr. Speaker, as Abitibi-Price Grand Falls. And yes, Mr. Speaker, Abitibi-Price in Grand Falls have spent over the last couple of years millions of dollars and have committed to spend millions of more dollars on remodernization.

They are in the planning stages of building a power plant on the Exploits River, very close to the mill, They are spending a lot of money on determining their wood supply, their inventory. They are doing the kinds of things, Mr. Speaker, that would not lead one to believe that Abitibi-Price did not have confidence in the future of that mill, and that those mills were not intended to be there for the long haul. However, Mr. Speaker, given the business climate in the world today, particularly in the newspaper industry, who knows?

But at this point in time there is no real reason to believe that the status oF Abitibi-Price Grand Falls or Stephenville will change . And with regard to the high c o s t of power in Stephenville, I will simply say to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that we are aware of that, and I am also aware that the management of Abitibi-Price in Stephenville is having discussions with the Minister of Mines and Energy responsible for Hydro, and Government, with a u:iew to looking at the high cost of electricity. Mker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a supplementary. - No. 88 1 R3 L3 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI

. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Nell, Mr. Speaker, in view of the seriousness of this matter for Stephenuille and Grand Falls, and in view of the seriousness of it for the economy of central Newfoundland and the Bay St. George region, can the minister tell the House when was the last time he met with the Chairman of the Board of Abitibi-.Price to discuss this very serious matter as Minister responsible for forestry in the Province? And can he tell the House what steps he and the Government are prepared to take to ensure that the Grand Falls and Stephenville mills are not put on the block by Abitibi-Price? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture aa_Hon. Member: None. Mr. Rideout: None, says Mr Gilbert, Did you hear that? Mr. Flight: Mr. Speaker, I cannot he date specific as to when I met with the Chairman of the Board of Abitibi-Price - - not date specific. I will get the date, the time - It was late this summer, I think, Mr. Speaker. But, in the meantime, what the hon. member should know is that one of the changes which has happened - and if the hon.

Speaker will allow inc For a minute, as he knows, and if the Member for Grand Falls were here he would know, that up until this point in time whenever there was a major problem in Grand Falls, the advice one got on the street or anywhere was there is no point talking to resident management in Gr€nd Falls, you have to go to Toronto, for instance. Mr.Rideout : To the Chairman of the board, Mr._jflht: Chairman of Lhe board. Nell, now, Mr. Speaker, part of the restructuring, that is one of the changes as well. And I have been notified from the top management of Abitibi-Price that the resident manager is Mr.

Collez in the case of Grand Falls, and a Vice-President with total responsibility for the Scotland mill, the Stephenville miii and the Grand Falls mill, and a n y questions I have or any information 'I want, I am directed to talk to the resident mill managers and, Mr. Speaker, and the vice-president in charge of the Newfoundland operation, and the vice-president in charge of the Newfoundland operation, Mr. Speaker, is one, Mr. Loretto, out of New York, and the hon. Leader of the Opposition will be pleased to know that I have a meeting set up with Mr. Loretto for the 11th of December.

Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Some Hon. Members: Hear, heart Mr. Noodford: Mr. Speaker, 'fly question is also to the Minister responsible for Forestry.

Would the Minister tell the House if he is aware of a statement by the Dominion Bond Rating Agency Service out of Toronto and also by the Canadian Bond Rating Agency Service, that is an agency service that monitors the financial status of many large companies in Canada, and they usually take an outlook for the next twelve to eighteen months, that they have cut its rating on debt is s u e d by the Toronto based Ab'i.tihi-Price Incorporated, From an R1 low to an R2 high and also that the. rating C . LI- November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 RI-

-c . . for their senior debt, including debentures a n d preFerred s h a r e s has dropped frorri triple B to a triple B high? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Flight: No, Mr. Speaker, I have to advise the hon. Member for Humber halley that I was not aware of that fact, but however, if - I thank him for the information, Mr. Speaker, but also would like to ask him for his source. An Hon. Member: Oh, oh! Not a letter from you. An Hon. •• Member: Do not try that game. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon. the Member for Number Valley. Mr.Woodfq_r: Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister is looking for letters I could probably produce them. But my supplementary, Mr.. Speaker: would the Miniter he aware that the same bond rating agency, the Dominion Bond rating agency out of Toronto also considers Ahitibi-Price to be too risky For the traditional corporate debt market, right now? Mr. Saker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Flight: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that, but I am aware of something else, that those kind of questions, Mr.

Speaker, are doing very . little to bolster the confidence of the people who work with Abitibi-Price in Grand Falls. An .0 aSab..er (Inaudible) .Fliht: I am also aware of the groat effort that Abitibi-Price have put into that mill this past six or seuen or eight months and what the labour unions have put in, in order to make sure that Abitibi-Price in Newfoundland remains viable and continues to support the economy of Central Newfoundland and I am aware that those kind of questions asked publicly do nothing for the confidence of either the people or the company. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Speaker: Order, please! The hon. the Member for Number - Mr.Tobin: It is not nonsense, it is truth. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Tobin: If it is not true put your seat on the line, aaHon. Member: Put yours on the line. The hon. the Member for Number halley. Mr. Noodford : Mr.

Speaker, 1 wonder - Mr...........Tohin: (Inaudible) Arnd up a clock kjoodford: - in the downgrading OF the debt of Abitibi-Price, would the Minister be aware of a statement by the Dominion Bond rating agency which also said that the Balance Sheet is below average, and even with careful management of working capital they expect the. proportions of debt to be near 40 per cent, which is too high for a cyclical company operal:inq in the LB November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 RB

forest products industry? t._Speaker: The hon. the Member for Hurriber Valley . The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Flight: No, Mr. Speaker, I have to tell the hon. House that I am not aware of the details as he has put them out, but I will guarantee the House, Mr. Speaker, that I will determine the validity of the statements. I presume he is taking them out of the, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said, out of the latest stock market reports or whatever, But there is a fact of life, Mr. Speaker, he is talking about the Abitibi-Price . picture.

Abitibi..-Price operates mills all across Canada. I presume the statistics he is giving the House do not apply to the Abitibi mill in Grand Falls or Stephenuille, Mr. Speaker. An Hon. Member: No. Mr. Flight: So the point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is that Abitibi-Price have notified this Government and notified me recently that they intend to borrow i;230 million maybe to build a power plant. They are borrowing money or they are finding money to upgrade the mill in Grand Falls modernization, they indicated in excess of $100 million over the next ten years. And I would say again, Mr.

Speaker, the tenor of those questions will not help Abitibi-Price in making sure that they find the kind of capital that they have to put into the mill in Grand Falls. Some Hon._Members: Oh, oh! An Hon. Member: (Inaudible),I. Mr. Noodford: Mr. Speaker. Mr. Noodford: Mr. Speaker, this is by no means scaremongering. It is just a precautionary thing. The Dominion Bond Rating Agencies and the Canadian Bond Rating Agencies usually look forward to the next twelve to eighteen months. I would like the Minister to do the same, It is a very important industry to this Province. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Woodford: This is riot scaremongering in any way. My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder then, if the Minister figures I am caremongering, could he check out an interview that a spokesperson f or Abitibi-Price gave to The Globe and Mail on November 23 and see if that is true? I will just quote one statement. He can probably check with them. Abitibi-Price spokesperson, Sharon Paul said in an interview, 'e have made . it very clear that we arc taking an aggressive stance in restructuriny and cutting our costs to make sure we a r e lean, And they are talking about primarily, Mr.

Speaker, the nrifls in Eastern Canada, and one does not have to go too far when you are talking about Abitibi-Price to know what mills she is talking about. An Hon. Member: Every mill in Canada is doing the same thing. Mr. Woodford: Eastern Canada. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry a n d Agriculture. C LO November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R6

Mr. Speaker, as hon. member - Minister of the Department of Forestry a n d Agriculture, I have Some Hon. Members: You are gone clone everything to bolster the out of your head, boy, confidence OF the people of Newfoundland - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! * Order, please! Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Flight: No, you are gone out • Mr. Flight: - and to bolster the off your head - you are - confidence of employees of Abitibi-Price, Mr. Speaker, in Mr. Speaker: Order, please! what has been an adverse time for the paper industry. Abitibi-Price Mr.

Flight: - trying to twist in Grand Falls have survived, they something - have come through three strikes this year, one in the mill itself, An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) one in the logging industry, and then a national strike. It Mr. . Speaker: In order for survived the shutdown of a paper Question Period to be effective, machine, Mr. Speaker, and still there has to be a reasonable they are approaching the future amount of order. There has to he with confidence and committing a a reasonable noise level, lot of money. otherwise nobody hears what is going on. I would ask the Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Minister please to finish up in fifteen seconds. • on Flight: Mr. Speaker, the _ hypocrisy of the line of questions Mr.Flight: Mr. Speaker, like I is this, if one would think about said, Grand Falls or Stephenville it: for the first two or three are stand alone units, their questions in the Question Period survival . depends on their the Leader of the Opposition performance. - wanted to establish the fact that Grand Falls was now a unit unto Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! itselF, now had to stand alone.

It was not dependent on any other Mr .Flight: They cannot he both. mills in the Ahitibi system, and They cannot depend on the units that is true .So if that is true across the rest of the country. then why should the bonding of Abitihi-Price all across the An Hon. Member: Take a course in country apply to the mill in Grand economics Falls. Mr. Flight: And so, Mr. Speaker, Some Hon._Members: Hear, hear!

I would wind up my answer by simply saying this, as I said I p.Flht: Either the mill in have gone out of my way this past _ Grand Falls and Stephenville will eighteen months to develop and be profitable, as the hon. Leader protect and defend and maintain a of the Opposition pointed out, or, level of confidence in they will not he, and they will Abitibi-Price . In the past three depend on their own set of minutes I have seen that eighteen ratings. And, Mr. Speaker, the months destroyed by an effrt to L7 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No; 88 R7

destroy -- Some Hon. Members Hear, hear Mr.fl.j9ht: the confidence of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador- Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! - irresponsibly. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Port au Port !ir._Hodder: Mr. Speaker, another, question to the Minister for Forestry. A year ago the manager of the mill in Stephenville said that under the escalating power rates as they are escalated now, if there is not some leniency given the Stephenville mill they will lose a profit.

It is a narrowly profit making mill at the present time but without some help from Government they will not be able to continue to be in a profit making situation. Now, Mr. Speaker, that was very publicly said in this Province and nothing has been done. Nhat I am asking the Minister is what: the Government is doing now, and the Minis ter referred to it when he. spoke to the Leader of L h e. Opposition, what is the Government doing at this present time to make sure that the rates are compatible with an economic mill in Ste ph en v ii. '1.1 e? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Mr.__Flight: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that the rates - the last words the hon. member used in his question was what is the Minister doing to make sure that the rates are compatible with an economic mi1 in Stephenvi :1 le . We1 1, Mr, Speaker, I am not sure' the rates (inaudible) compatible with an U economic mill, whatever that means .

But what I can tell the hon. member from Pert au Port is that, as I stated earlier, that the management in Stephenville as management, as managers of any company or operation in Newfoundland today is looking at keeping the costs of electricity down and concerned about the cost of electricity. Mr. Speaker, as I have pointed our earlier.

The management is talking to the officials of Newfoundland Hydro, talking to the Minis ter of Mines and Energy, and the Minister of Mines and Energy is looking at the situation and in due course will advise the management and mill whether or not there is any relief or not or whether or not the rates are what they have to be, So, Mr. Speaker, the issue of cost of electricity to the mill in Stephenville is in the final Minister of Mines and Energy and analysis the business of the . the Government collectively. Somi _Hon. Memb.ers: Hear, hear! The hon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Nodder: Mr.

Speaker, now I asked this question to the Minis ter of Mines and Energy over a year ago, now I am asking the Minister of Forestry he only has three mills, if there is only three mills in the Province and only three he has to look after, Now, Mr. Speaker, I have asked this question. I asked it a year ago and I did not get an answer and I am asking now, it is a well know fact that that Fill cannot continue to operate under the escalating cost of electricity in this Province, and I will ask the Minister again can he tell us what . LB November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R8

. . he 1.s doing to make sure that the Stephenuille mill will he a viable operation, particularly in light of the facts that have been raised here this morning? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. r_[2iht: Mr. Speaker, it is not - the hon. member says it is a well known fact that that mill cannot continue to operate at the present cost of electricity. An LJI?aPQr: Escalafing costs Mr. Flight: Escalating costs. It may start de-.escalating. How does the Member know what will happen - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Fljjht: Mr.Speaker, the M e m b e r just indicated that: the mill in Stephenville is very marginally profitable but they are making a profit, even with the cost of electricity. And I can assure the member again that the Member for Stephenville, who represents the mill, is talking to the Minister of Mines and Energy and myself daily, as well as other ministers responsible and we are going to do everything we can do, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that confidence- is maintained in that mill and the mill continues to operate, and we are not going to take

part in the kind of confidence—destroying debate we have had here this morning. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Some Hon. Members: Answer the question. Answer the question. Pr. Saeaker: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's -. The Capes. Mr. Hearn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, just recently, the. Minister of Education told the House that decisions had not been made to implement his long—term plan to cut costs in education. He also said he has found a way to reduce costs without affecting the delivery of programs to students.

I want to ask the minister, has the Central Newfoundland Community College informed school boards in Central Newfoundland that beginning in 1993 the pr cv o c at ion a 1 program for hi g Ii school students will he cancelled at the vocational schools in Lewisporte, Gander, Springdale, and Baie Verte? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Education. Dr. Warren: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is well behind the times. I think about a year ago the boards were notified that over a three year period these programs would be downsized and perhaps eliminated.

This was announced about a year ago. !..:_P&Qic!r The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. Mr. Hearn : Wil.l the minister confirm then, Mr. Speaker - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) r.Hearn: Will the minister confirm then that the cancellation of the prevocational program in Central Newfoundland will mean the loss of programs in industrial arts, home economics, and business education for, over 1,500 h i g h school s tudent:s , .:•ind the L9 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R9

elimination of twenty teaching positions will be eliminated. positions? The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr, Hewlett: Laugh at that one! Dr. Warren: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not know the details of that. But a year ago, when the boards were notified, the boards are looking at other options and our hope that programs will be developed in the school system. The hon. member must know what has happened.

If he did not know, perhaps his hon. colleague, who was the Minister of Career Development, would tell him that in most schools throughout the Province now the vocational schools are not being used for vocational and industrial purposes, that the school systems have taken it over. But because the Former Government did not provide enough money to build the shops for the expanded high school programs, some programs are limited. We will have to try to find other ways of addressing this need in the schqal system.

I am not sure if there is anywhere else in the Province at the present time where the high schools use the vocational schools as they do in Central Newfoundland . So we are looking at other options, and we will work with boards over the next two or three years to provide other options Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. • r.

Hearn: I may say to the minister that the Principal of the V o c a 'Li o n a 1 Sc Ii on 1 in Spring dale has said that in the Green Bay area alone 480 students will be affected and s i x teaching Will the minister confirm t h e n that lie has instructed all community colleges to cancel prevocational programs in 1993, depriving thousands of high school students of courses in home economics, industrial arts, business education, and eliminating at least sixty teaching positions overall?

And will he confirm these teaching cuts are in addition to the three year reduction of 350 to 1.50 teachers, 'which he communicated to school boards earlier? Or maybe the minister in his last answer is using the same old tired phrase, that no decision has been made? Is he, in the memorable words of his colleague, the Minister of Forestry, just playing games? Or is he skirting around the questions, as the president of Treasury Boar& says all ministers do? Speaker: The hon. the Minister, of Education. Dr. Warren: Mr. Speaker, I could start rumours that there are thousands of teachers going to he laid off.

I mean, this kind of thing - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! And hon. Member: Millions. Millions. Dr. Warren: I mean, thousands and thousands Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Dr. Warren: He loves talking about all these rumours . Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. Member should get the former Minister of Career and Development to give him sorrie in--service education -- and he . L10 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 RiO

[1 S . 4. . will not n e e d a s u b s t i t u t e on how the. Post—secondary Sys tern operates Let me take a minute to tell the hon. Member that the post-secondary system is globally funded, so the colleges themselves determine what the priorities are; they decide what programmes they are going to keep, what programmes they may downsize in any one year. They do it all the time; they are given a global budget. So we have asked the colleges to look at what night happen if there is a freeze next year, and they are going to make the decisions as to what programmes - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh!

Dr.Narren: They are the ones who made it in the past. My hon. friend can get together after and tell him how the post-secondary system is funded. It is globally funded, and they will make the decisions. Let me repeat one thing. The hon. Member - he was right. No decisions have been made, Mr. Speaker, allthe options are being examined Ir............Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations Under the new Unemployment Insurance regulations, there will be anywhere from 2,000 to 3,000 people, according to the Unemployment Insurance Commis sion, in the St. Johns area, in the metro a,rea who will not qualify for unemployment insurance, and there might he other areas in the Province in the same boat.

These people are going to be in serious trouble this winter from i i a financial point of view. ii would ask the Minis ter iF the Department of Employment and Labour Relations will be initiating any employment programs this winter to help those people who will not now qualify for unemployment insurance qualify? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: At this particular time, we have not decided to put any employment programmes in place for that particular group. There has been a showing of some strength in the Avalon region as far as employment is concerned.

So I am watching that, Mr. Speaker, along with the fact that the new UI regulations are having a negative impact on some of our people who live in region one of the UI area. I am not sure if there will indeed be thousands, as my hon, critic is saying here, this morning, but certainly the thing is being monitored, and if the need arises, we will put employment programmes in place. •__Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Mr._Doyle: A supplementary. I could say to the Minister that the figures I am using are not not my own. It is the Unemployment Insurance Commission who have supplied these figures.

The Minister will aware that the boundary around St. John's for Unemployment Insurance purpos as extends out to the community of Sea.l Cove, in Conception Bay. In other words, all communities east of Seal Cove are in the St. John's region for UI purposes . I will ask the Minister if she has been in touch w i t h the Minister of Employme it and lirimig ra bio n to Lii November, 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 Ru

request: that the City of St. John I s be designated a region onto itself, since the commUnities back towards St. John's have unemployment rates much higher than the unemployment rate in the city itself? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations MsCowan: It is because of the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, and because of the stand of this Government that this is not the case all over the Province of Newfoundland. It was because of the presentation that was taken to Ottawa and presented to the hon.

Ms McDougall that the regions were changed and that fortunately, now, people in other parts of Newfoundland are able to get their UI with only ten weeks. He can be assured that I am still very concerned about the St. John's area and had mentioned it to the Minister when I last saw her, which was only a month ago, and certainly will bring it to her attention again: as soon as I have opportunity. But I do not intend to harass the woman. An Hon.

Member: (Inaudible) MsCowan: She also has people reporting to her daily and is well aware of the situation in the Province, and has assured me that she will continue to monitor it. Mr. Speaker: Question Period has expired. Before proceeding to the next item of business, on behalf of hon. Members I would like to welcome to the public galleries today two classes of seventy—six Grade IX students from St. Peter's Elementary School in Mount Pearl, accompanied by their teachers, Dave Denine, Chris Hatch and Geoff Seymour. Some Hon. Members: Her, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy; pr. Gibbons: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I took notice of a question From the Member from Green Bay because I had not seen a copy of I he Power Connection from Newfoundland Light and Power for the fall. Now that I have seen it, I would like to reply. Frankly, I consider it a bit unfortunate that that particular

article was included -in The Power Connection, because it confuses the whole issue of power increases. There is not a power increase on January 1 of 20 per cent, as the impression was given yesterday. That particular issue referred to some history. Last February, Light and Power got a 4- per cent increase. They wonL before the PUB and that was a p p r o v e d - last February. Last July, Newfoundland Hydro got a B per cent increase from the PUB. The other thing that happened last year was an adjustment to the rate stabilization plan.

Now everybody knows that the rate stabilization plan is an automatic adjustment plan that replaces something that was formerly called a fuel escalation charge. Last year, that adjustment to account For fuel price changes, etc., was about 4 per cent. So these increases all totalled 13 last year. L12 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R12

if the 051 comes in on January 1 we will see a 7 per cent increase from the Federal Government On January 1 No other things have been decided yet for 1991. It is my understanding that Light and A Power will not be requesting a hearing before the PUB this year. I am not sure yet what Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro will be doing in 1991, but they are not ready to go with the normal review that they would have asked for this winter. They will probably be going in some time later.

But, next July 1, the one thing that we are sure of is another rate stabilization plan adjustment, reflecting fuel charge changes this year. An Hon. Member: Prices could change (Inaudible) a year, in this day and age. Petitions !1.r._Speaker: The hon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 118 residents of the District of Port au Port. This petition is part of the petition which was submitted yesterday by the Member for Stephenville, and the total petition now is 3,197 names, the original signatures. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the petition itself represents somewhat the same sort of thing the hospital does, in that it serves the District of Port au Port, the District of Stephenville, and a large part oFt he District of St. c;eorqe 5 . And while the signatures which' are affixed to this particular petition I have here are mostly from Port au Port, the. petition was taken up throughout the whole district, and I have been asked by the Hospital Committee to present those on behalf of the residents of the District of Port au Port. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the hospital in Stephenville, the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital, is some thirty years old. It serves, as I said, the region from Rohinsons down through to St. Georges -. Stephenville Cros sing, and through to Cape St. George and Lourdes in the District of Port au Port, and perhaps out as far as Gallants on the northern side. Mr. Speaker, the hospital itself was a hospital which was left by the Americans to the Province. It needs replacement in the long run, and certainly, Mr. Speaker, it needs new services.

The personnel who work in that hospital, which is an old hospital, are to be commended for the enthusiasm with which they carry out their jobs under very trying circumstances, because of the limitations of the building and the services Now, Mr. Spe.aker, the people are. asking that the services he maintained as t h e y have been in the past. And, Mr. Speaker, the Government must increase the budget of the Department of Health, particularly for these institutions, because of the rising cost of operating these institutions. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have heard and we know in this House and in this Province, that the negotiated salary and wage benefits which have taken place this year, a pay equity mplernentation , . worker' s compensation premium increases, LU November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R13

. all of that sort of thing, plus, Mr. Speaker, the normal increases because health care increases are higher than others - health care does not increase by the normal inflation rate. So, Mr. Speaker, when the Government says, as the Premier said yesterday in response to this same petition, or this same prayer, that they have no intention of cutting funding, Mr. Speaker, that begs the question. Because, Mr. Speaker, in the case of the health care institutions across this Province, a freeze is a cut.

Certainly the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital has voluntarily cut back on hospital beds over the past two years, and if there is a freeze, it will mean ten or twelve patient beds will have to close. Now, Mr. Speaker, that will mean that the hospital will have 60 per cent less patient beds than it had when it first opened, in 1966. Mr. Speaker, the hospital has shown leadership by voluntarily reducing its bed size, and it is asking the institution to do more than it can really endure, to cut back further. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to read f rom a letter which was written to me by the Action Committee Chairperson. She said, This action on the part of Government means that a significant reduction in the number of patient beds and the level of service that the hospital is capable of providing will take place.' Mr. Speaker, they encourage my support to find a more humane and appropriate solution to the problem, and I would ask the Government, I would ask the Minis ter of Health if he would accede to the request of the people of Bay St. Georje and the hospital committee. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to support this petition, as I supported the similar petition presented by the Member for Stephenville yesterday. I agree with the petitioners that the Government should provide an adequate level of funding to the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital in Stephenville so the hospital can maintain and provide, to the people of the Bay St. George area health care services. An adequate level of funding, Mr. Speaker, surely involves an increase in the 1990-91-92 Budget Year over , the level of funding provided this year.

An increase is absolutely essential because of rising costs imposed by the Provincial Government and Government agencies. The Government has agreed to salary and benefit increases for hospital employees. The hospital agreed to increases for nurses, and the hospital put wages and benefits For other hospital worIer's to arbitration and, of course, accepted the arbitrated rulings. So there will be substantial payroll associated benefits, cost increases at Lhe Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital as in all other hospitals and nursing homes in the Province over the next couple of years.

Additionally this present Government has honoured the commitment of the previous Government in introducing pay equity for female workers in health care institutions, and the cost of instituting the principle of equal pay For work of equal value in the health care sector is . 4 r 114 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R14

. e 5 t i mated at S e v e r a]. mliii o n dollars And finally the Workers Compensation Corporation has assessed staggering premium increases on hospitals and nursing homes. So if the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital is to maintain simply the present level of services the hospital absolutely has to have a budget increase next year. And it is aboyt time that the Minister of Health assured people that the Government is not going to freeze the budget of the Roddick Hospital or for that matter any hospital or nursing home in the Province.

To freeze hospital budgets will be to cut hospital services and force the closure of beds, And as every one in the Province knows the members opposite got elected on the strength of definite promises to improve health care and open more hospital beds.

Now as I commented yesterday, I am sure the Member for Stephenville never dreamed that if he and his party were successful in filling a majority of seats in this House that he would be put in a position of having to present a petition oF his constituents begging the Government not to cut hospital funding, since he and his leader crusaded on a platform of boosting health care budgets. Mr. Speaker, the Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital provides essential medical and health care services to the people of the whole Bay St.

George region, as the Member for Port au Port mentioned that c o m p r i s e s three Provincial Districts, the Districts of Port au Port, Stephenville, and St. George's. And I certainly agree with all the residents of that area who signed the petition presented by the Member F o r Port au Port, as we Li as the one presented yest e.rday by the Member For Stephenville, in asking for the Government to provide an adequate level of funding for their hospital in Stephenville. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Health. Decker: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon.

Member For Port au Port for bringing that petition from his constituents to this House today. It is always a great pleasure for Government to receive petitions from people in the Province because we are an open Government who want to listen to the people throughout this Province. But it also gives us an opportunity to speak back to the people and to tell . them some of the hardships whicft the Government is going through. On April 20, Mr. Speaker, just over a year ago the previous Administration died. Ihey passed away. . They were turfed out. Mr.

Speaker, on May 5, this Administration opened a will of the previous Administration. And what a legacy we found. What a legacy! Four hundred and eighty—five million dollars of this Province's money has to be paid out in interest payments on a debt that the other Administration ran up, like a bunch of drunken sailors, who just spent, spent, spent. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Decker: $118 million, Mr. Speaker, of our money has to go in debt retirement. The Province owes, including the guarantees to L15 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 08 RiB

the Crown corporations, $5.6 billion, Mr. Speaker, which was piled up year aFter year, alter year, by the previous Administration. An Hon. Member: He has the down Mr. Decker: Mr. Speaker, another $2 billion, the Province is liable for another $2 billion because the previous Administration did . not have the will to consider the problems in the pension fund, Mr Speaker. Personal income taxes in this Province have raised to 60-odd per cent of the federal income tax, Mr. Speaker. Retail sales tax had risen to 12 per cent, the highest in. Canada, Mr. Speaker. Gasoline taxes is ten or twelve cents on a litre, Mr.

Speaker, so the previous Administration has used up all our capacity to borrow, all our capacity to tax, Mr. Speaker, yet in spite of all that, in spiteof all that, this Administration started to put into effect our plan for hospitals and our plan for education, Mr. Speaker, evidenced by the $150 million. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Decker: Evidenced by the $150 million that we - Mr.

Speaker, we put money into the hospital in Stephenville, more money that had been put in in any single year in the past ten years we put into the Stephenville hospital, however, the final straw which broke the camel's back was brought upon us by friends and colleagues of the hon. members in the Opposition, their friends in Ottawa who induced a recession. Now, Mr.

Speaker,, with a debt of $5.6 billion, with interest rates the way they were pushed up, with the personal income tax capacity all used up, this Government: had no choice but to try to brirq things back into some kind of perspective, so we had to interrupt temporarily what we intend to do in Stephenville, what we intend to do in Central Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, but I have a bright hope, I have a bright hope for the future of health in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, but that bright future is not just out there waiting for us to catch up, it is not existing in some cynical view of the universe waiting for us to roll around to the age of gold. We will only reach that if we lay today a solid foyndation, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Decker: We will deliver good health care, we will deliver good education, we will deliver, a healthy future hope for this people if we today lay that solid foundation, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Decker: And that is essentially what we are doug.

So, I say to the people of Port au Port, thank you For your petition. We are listening to what you are saying, we intend to do what we can do, but we a r e laying a solid rational clear-cut foundation today so that we can deliver tomorrow the health care that the people of Port- au Port and the health care that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador deserve, and we are going that, Mr. Speaker, in spite of the fact, in spite of the fact that the previous administration gutted the economy of this Province and almost - Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! . . L16 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 RiG

A Mr. Decker: And, Mr. Spe.akef', came within a fraction of, in the words OF the previous Premier, of putting us back to the 1930s all over again. Thanks he to goodness that this Administration caine in the nick of time, in the nick of time, to save this Province's health care and education and all the other sectors that Government is responsible for. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Order 18. Motion, second reading of a bill, "Ark Act To Amend The Corporations Act," (Bill No. 46). The hon. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Mr.

Speaker, I believe Bill 46 is the Act to amend the Human Rights code - Mr. Speaker: Sorry. Ms_g: and I adjourned the debate yesterday afternoon. Mr.........Speaker: I made the wrong one Order, please! Mr. Rideout: Mn Speaker, nobody - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I have on a number of occasions in the last couple of days stood to rise on a point of order and hon members ignored it completely. I want hon. members to know again that when the Speaker rises there is suppose to he absolute, total silence in the House., and I am not going to tolerate that any longer.

Hon . members can refuse to listen and they can pretend that something is not happening, but I am certain that hon speakers know or hon. members know that I am standing, and I am going to use the authority that is invested in the Chair if I sense it going on much longer. I have asked for order, I have called the second reading of a certain bill, and I want hon. members please to afford the member who is speaking the dignity and the respect that they are supposed to be afforded and to respect the rules of the Ho use The hon. the Member for Hurnher East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday I began my remarks addressing the principle of this bill, which is

An Act 1 Amend The Human Rights Code . I would like to recap briefly the points that I made. I agree Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! I want again to remind hon members of ny ruling. A n d again in the past I have noticed when I call For order, as soon as I have taken my place, hon. members carried on From where. Lhey previously left off. And I remind hon. members, .having been an old time school teacher, that that is one thing that aggravates inc. When I call for order I expect it to be given.

And I tell hon. members they must listen, because the Chair has invested in it certain authority and this Chair is not at all beyond exercising it, when I am carried to the limit. The hon. the Member for Humber East. No. 88 Ri? .17 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI

. MsUcrge: Mr. Speaker, to con ti flue, I wou id c hara C he ri. z e these changes to the Human Rights Code as disappointingly smafl in scope. On the whole, the bill represents one small step forward, but regrettably a step backward. The first provision of the bill is, I think, positive. It could be much better than it is, but it does represent some improvement. As I mentioned yesterday.

I believe it was put forward by the Department of Justice and the Human Rights Commission in response to a particular case which involved a complaint by a man that he was being discriminated against on a basis of sex in the setting of insurance premiums. The question of whether the sale of insurance fell within the ambit of the Human Rights Code was not clear, and ultimately there was a ruling that it fell outside the bounds of the code. That was because the provision dealing with public services was tied to a public place.

The old wording is as follows: no person shall deny to a person or class of persons, admission to or enloyment of the accommodations, services, or Facilities available in a place to which the public is customarily admitted. The new wording is much broader and does away with the physical focus. It says: no person shall deny to or discriminate against a person or class of persons with respect to accommodations, services, facilities or goods to which members of the public customarily have access, So, that is positive. It goes on, however, to limit that protection to a certain number of categories .

It is regrettable that the categories are so limited. Indeed, the whole code prohibits discrimination on the basis of only certain enumerated types of discrimination. Other types of discrimination, including some of the most insidious in our society, are left out of the code altogether. I mentioned at the closing yesterday that there is no protection for gays and lesbians. The present Minister of Justice has defended this glaring omission on the grounds that extending human rights protection to gays and lesbians is not popular.

Now, the people who are most vulnerable in our society, the individuals most likely to be persecuted are not popular by definition. Jews- were not popular in Nazi Germany. And I would say to the Minister and the Government that it is people who are not popular, who are not powerful, who are not well understood and appreciated, who need the protection of the Human Rights Code the most. Most of the individuals in this House are powerful, command respect, and will probably never need a legal guarantee of human rights because of their privileged positions in society.

But there are many other individuals, including gays and lesbians, and I am not suggesting that there aren't homosexuals in this House of Assembly, people throughout the Province who are discriminated against on a daily basis and they have no protection under our Human Rights legislation. Now the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which forms part of the Constitution of Canada puts limits on what our Legislature may do as well as all the other parliaments of Canada, provincial and federal.

And all of our laws, including our Human Rights Code, have to be measured against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms rhe Charter in

section 15 prohibits dis crimination and guarantees all the rights and freedoiris of L h e Charter without . . L18 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R18

. a . discrimination, And the types of dscrimination prohibited are not limited Without dis criminatiori is unqualified. And I would suggest that some day our Human Rights Code is going to be tested in the courts with respect to the Charter and it will be found and judged to be wanting, it will be judged to be deficient and flawed.

And I would urge the Government to be proactive instead of reactive or reactionary and advance more amendments to the Human Rights Code to broaden the coverage and to ensure that our provincial Human Rights legis lation complies with the Canadian Constitution, meets the requirements of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Now the other part of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is an exemption clause. The other part of the bill sets out situations which are exclusionary. There is a general rule, limited as it is, but then the bill goes on to say that that general rule does not apply to A, B, C, D, E.

Now these exclusionary clauses were severely criticized by the Government's own Human Rights Commission, a n d L h e Government's own Advisory Council on the Status of Worren, two groups that were appointed by the present Cabinet. The Human Rights Commission said as follows with respect to one of the exclusionary clauses 'This amendment appears to protect and even encourage discrimination. For example, hone of us would have a problem with a religious organization restricting membership to persons of that religion.

But we would not like to see an organization dedicated to the dissemination of educational material about white supremacy given protection by the Code, which is what this amendment may be used to do.' N o w this was written by the Government's own Human Rights Comnris sion, appointed by the Minister opposite, chaired by Eve Roberts a senior lawyer practicing in St. John's. We feel that this

section may have the opposite effect to what was intended and may actually be used to legitimize discrimination. I wonder if the Minister of Education is listening to this because I think he sees himself as an advocate of human rights Would the Minister of Education like to be part of a government that is amending our Human Rights Code, with whatever good intentions, in a way that the Government's own Human Rights Commission says is going to be counterproductive and may actually encourge dis crimination? Would the Minister of Education like to be associated with this kind of a regres sive measure? Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is another way to deal with this, and that way is laid out in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Section 1 of the Charter says 'That the rights and freedoms set out in the Charter are subject only to such reasonable limits pres cci. bed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. ' Why not use that same language, why not mirror that language in our provincial human rights code. That way, the provincial Government and the provincial Legislature would benefit from judicial

interpretations of

section 1 of the Charter and we would guard against the dangers raised by the Government' s own Human Rights Commission. When we move into Committee of the Whole, to examine this bill clause .19 Novembc.r 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R19

[1 by clause, on behalf of the Opposition. I will be propositrig a whole series of amendments to save the positive aspect of this bill, but to delete the negative and dangerous clauses of the bill, and to try to end up with changes to our human rights code that will be overall positive and constructive and that will strengthen and broaden human rights coverage in our Province. In the meantime, I would suggest to Ministers opposite, who, because of their own particular portfolios, may not have realized just what was in this bill, to familiarize themselves with it.

And I would encourage, particularly the Minister of Education, and the President of Treasury Board, the House Leader, who is also the Minister responsible for the status of women, two individuals I consider to be sympathetic with human rights concerns, to consult the Human - Rights Commission, the Government's own Commission which the Government appointed, and listen to what, they have to say and then regroup and try to agree to some amendments to this bill, beFore it goes to Committee of the. Whole. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr,Speaker; If the hon.

Minister of Justice speaks now, he will close the debate. - The hon. the Minister of Justice Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Dicks: Thank you, Mr Chairman I have a few comments I want to make. The two comments raised by my hon. critic relate to two elements, one is in this proposed amendment to

section 7, and that is

section 7 (3d) which permits an exception to the general prohibition against discrimination in the provision of services and accommodations. The second relates to her advocacy of provision in the code dealing with sexual orientation on the basis that she set forward and I would like to deal with them both separately. First of all, let me say that she quotes the Human Rights Commission, but, they first of all acknowledge that this is, to some extent, a proper exception. Now, I have concerns with the hen.

Member's proposition that we should delete subsection 7 (3d), and for the benefit of people who were not here yesterday who may be interested in this, I would like to outline what this is.

As the hon critic indicated, there is a problem in that the current.section 7, which prevents discrimination where provisions and accommodations are made available to the public that the nature of those accommodations and services offered refers to the place rather than the type OF service offered, so, for instance where it came to the Government's attention, was the recent Supreme Court of Newfoundland decision which said that if you offered a public service, but not in a public place, that that was not subject to the restrictions in the human rights code that prevent discrimination, On the basis of that we brought in an amendment to the code to make sure that the offering of all services, whether, in a public or, a private place, would he of their nature subject to the human rights code, and I believe that this has S S 1-20 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R20

. done it, but in doing so, we also had to consider whether or not there are legitimate rtghts of p r i v a c y and if that general rule would admit exceptions. Now, the hon. Member has brought into question subsection 3D. She doesn't argue with the exception we have proposed that you allow discrimination on the basis of public decency, because otherwise you would only have one washroom and not male and female washroorns, which I believe we all accept. We also have accommodation where sex is a reasonable criterion for admission to the accornodation, such as VMCAs, YWCAs and so on.

But the one that is in dispute with the hon. Member, particularly, is thai: we permit a restriction on membership on the basis of a prohibited ground of discrimination in a religious, philanthropic, educational, fraternal, sororal or social organization that is primarily engaged in serving the interest of a group of persons identified by that prohibited ground of dis crimination. Now let me say first of all, if I tal<e the hon.

Member's proposition and accepted it and deleted that, we would immediately eliminate organizations that I presume From her previous comments in public are dear to her heart - the Status of Women Council, the WISE group which is here today, and groups that are dedicated to the promotion of a particular interest and which has as its general criterion the admissions of people of that group which suffers discrimination or which normally would have need of an exception.

And I think that in proposing that type of thing we had to he very careful, because whether she is prepared to acknowledge it o rif she was struck on the road . to Damascus afte.r April 20 with some new element of life that she did not see previously, I think that she would be reversing her position on matters which she has advocated. And frankly I do not see that there is any harm done in the Province by having groups such as Status of Women Council, a group which by and large, has not had the full advantages in society that their male counterpart does.

It would also eliminate the Women's Literary Publication which is an ancillary to the Status of Women Council. It would also do away with, Mr. Speaker, religious and philanthropic groups, which would include all the religious organizations we have, the Anglican, United Church, Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, and the other denominations. It would do away with B'nai B'rith and the various •men's and women's groups associated with those organizations. And I admit that, yes, those organizations discriminate, but that is not the question . The issue is, is there any harm done? And I suggest that there is not.

There is in fact a significant social good, a contribution back to the general enhancement of the Province in which we live as a result of the various religious organizations and many of these fraternal organizations that do good on the basis of providing services within the limits of their own organizations. I would also add that she herself has admitted, when she revised the Human Rights Code in 1988, an exception in

Section 4 of the Code.., which would allow the 1-21 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R21

. denominational system to continue. So that, in the Human Rights Code which she proposed and brought before this Legislature and had passed, and which her government and government or the day sponsored, it already acknowledges that there is a role for religion to play in this Province and by extension the religious and other sorts of groups associated with it. So I disagree with her fundamentally on that.

She makes a general proposition that if we put this in place it will somehow encourage or prevent white supremist groups from taking office, and so on like this, and taking some measures in society that we would not accept. Now what I would say, Mr. Speaker, is that we cannot look at the Human Rights Code in isolation. The Human Rights Code of course - we also have to look at the Criminal Code which has at its base various provisions to deal with that very matter that prevents a promulgation of hate literature and also promotes or prevents a s s a u 1 t.

Her second ground that she. has dealt w i t h is this matter of sexual orientation. - Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to first of all point out that this is something that the hon. Member did not address when she brought in the Human Rights Code in 1988. It is not a new idea, it was not conceived since 1988, it was not engendered by the April 20, 1989 election when we came in office and she and her government went out of office. It has been around For quite a number of years, it is in three other Provinces - Ontario Quebec and Manitoba - and it is also in the Yukon.

Now I have difFiculty with the provision that these other Legislatures have. But I suggest to the hon. Member first of all, that she does not have credibility on the i s s u e because she and her government failed to deal with that at that time. And I say that because it is not an easy issue to deal with. And there are several matters that I would like to highlight for the people that may be listening. First of all, sexual orientation - the very term itself. Sexual orientation, Mr. Speaker, is a term that I believe to be too broad. What is a sexual orientation? It is not defined in the Acts I have looked at.

I suggest that there is - some perception or some danger because there is no case law on it. (Inaudible) sexual orientation - would it include a sexual orientation toward children? Would it include a sexual orientation toward animals? Which may be very valid g r o u n d s for discrimination. But let us assume for the minute that it is a term of science and not of art. And that may he it is intended to apply just to practicing homosexuals, the gay and lsbian community, of which the hon. Member has been speaking. What I would like to say on that, Mr.

Speaker, is that I do not think too many of us would have difficulty with a proposition that in the provision of public service, or if an individual wants to get access to Government services or Government employment, that that should be a ground of discrimination, that we can refuse to serve somebody or g i v e. them employment b e c a u s e they may he homosexual, oH what have you . . L22 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R22

. 4 . El . However, there arc very difficult 155L105 that we have to address. For instance, Big Brothers, Big Sisters, these sorts of organizations, try to screen out people on the basis of their sexual preferences because they are associated with young children.

Now, we can say that there is perhaps a body of medical opinion that would suggest that pedophilia is a different disorder than homosexuality, but are we prepared to say that we are going to prevent Big Brothers, Big Sisters, and organizations which have this type of concern, from screening people on a sexual preference basis, particularly when it is undefined as to whether sexual orientation as a term, I would also include pedophilia and other types of disorders like that. The second thing is what about a church that does not want to hire a practicing homosexual cleric? What about adoption?

Should we allow homosexualS couples to adopt children? What about a parent that does not want to hire a homosexual baby sitter? So it is very easy for someone to come into this Legislature and say let us bring in a general provision ban n i n g di s c r i ni nat i o n o ii the basis of sexual orientation, hut I would suggest to her that it is not that easy. While we would all admit that there might be invalid grounds of discrimination on the basis of a person's sexual preference, there are key areas that must be seriously considered b.efore we bring in a general prohibition on this Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out that this is not being considered by our Government. I have spoken with the Human Rights Commission. This Government is open at any point in time to considering what may he invalid g r o u n d s of d i s c r i in i. 1 at ion aid prohibiting those. But I would like to point out to the hon member that she and her Government addresses, they did not bring it in. I presume, I do not know, that they may have had some sense that there might be difficulties with it, or maybe it was a purely political decision, but I would welcome any amendment she may suggest.

And if she is prepared to bring into this Legislature an amendment that each of her colleagues endorse and are prepared to sign and put before the Government and table in this House, we will consider that. And I would be very interested to see which amendment she and her colleagues would propose to deal with such a complex issue, and I would be very interested in finding out what type of discrimination she is going to advocate. Is it simply sexual orientation? Because, I suggest to her, that is a broader type of term than we have generally looked at and has generally been advocated. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the final point I would like to make on this is that we have to recall in all this that the Human Rights Code is o n e of many s t a t u t e s that a r e available in this country, that the dangers that the hon. member has suggested this amendment may engender do not exist, that there a r e. provisions in other Acts, particularly in the Criminal Code that deal with the types of evils the member is suggesting.

I have been in office now for about a year and a half and I want to tell the hon. member that other than my conversation with the Human Rights Coinmis sion and the Human Rights Association, I have .23 November 30, 1090 Vol XLI No. 88 R23

. not received any individuals or any person who has written to no and complained that they have been the vi c tim u -f dIsc rimi n a t i o ii because they are homosexual. I have heard two reports in the media, one was of two ladies who were lesbians and who said they were kicked out of a strip club in downtown St. John's; a nude show was going . on and the manager evicted them. He said they were disorderly. They said they were evicted because or their sexual preference. The other one was a case of a man who claimed to have been evicted from a bar in downtown St.

Johns because he was a homosexual and he was doing a dance called tushing, or something. And I would like to say I do not know what that is particularly, But I was not approached,. I do not know the facts, I have only read the newspaper accounts and heard a bit on. the media.

But may I say that if that is the basis on which the hon. member is proposing an amendment to the code, I would suggest to her that if we are going to try, to address an existing evil, or an existing ground of discrimination that is being invalidly applied to people, I would like a little more information on where exactly the problem exists . Because laws should be only brought in to solve problems that are either real or perceived to arise from the nature of the laws we propose. So may I suggest to the hon. member in closing, Mr. Speaker, that her advocacy on this last credibility, her subsection 3 (

d) or 7 (3) (

d) would preclude the types of organizations that I think most members of this House would support. Maybe. she does not, but I think the rest of us do. The other aspect of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that it is very e a s y to propose a general ground of discrimination, but I think one has to give it somewhat more thought, and I invite her to reconsider. And we are open to suggestions. But if she has not considered these matters, then I would like to hear what she might have to say during the Committee debate. But, on the other hand, if she has changed her mind I would like to know that as well, since she brought in

an Act in 1988 which (lid not deal with the very matters that she now proposes that we deal with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Human Rights Code, 1988", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, on tomorrow. (Bill No. 46). Mr. Baker: Order 19, Mr. Speaker. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Corporations Act". (Bill No. 53). Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Justice. r.LDicks: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

T h i s is a narrow amendment to The Corporations Act, to two sections, and it essentially deals with a problem that has arisen in the Province since the introduction of The Corporations Act which supplanted The Companies Act, which had been in existence for close to 100 years What happened, Mr. Speaker, was there was not adequate provision in the Corporations Act to deal with the revival of companies which had failed to provide the k .24 November 30, 1990 vol xti No. 88

- . 4 . S necessary documentation to revive themselves and to continue as corporations . What this does, Mr. Speaker, in

section 1 is to repeal subsection 170 subsec-tion (3) so that it will allow a body corporate that existed as a company to maintain the same proportion of non—resident directors after January 1st, 1987, which was the date of the bringing into effect of the new Corporations Act, as it had before, when it was a company, because the new Corporations Act has restrictions on the number and powers and so on of non—resident directors . This would cure an anomaly and allow a continued corporation to maintain that same portion of directors. The other subsection deals with the revival of a body corporate that was dissolved, and it repeals

section 327, which allowed for revival, and makes it a little more simple, so that . wher& a corporation is dissolved under the part of The Corporations Act and The Companies Act, the person might apply to have the corporation revived or the company revived, as the case may be. Part of the difficulty that has happened, Mr. Speaker, is when The Corporations Act was brought in, there was not really sufficient thought given at that time to what would happen on continuance of companies, and, as • well, on revival of companies once they had ceased to exist after the period of time had elapsed.

This will deal with it, because the general rule of law is that once a company is considered to have ended or have been dissolved, then the property escheats to the Crown. This would allow us to allow companies to he revived where there has been oversight and so on on the part of the company invo].ved . rhank you, Mr. Speaker. fr. _Speaker: The hon. the Member, for, Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We support the principle of this bill, which is to smooth the transition from the old Companies A c t to the new Corporations Act.

The minister has explained precisely what changes are set out in the biLl. The Corporations Act was one of the malor pieces of law reForm passed by this Legislature when I was Minister of Justice. . rhere was a tremendous amount of work involved in drafting the new Corporations Act, as well as providing for the administrative mechanism for the transition from the old Companies Act to the new legislation, and, obviously, some details were not looked arter as well as they might have been.

And, of course, with experience the people using the legislation have now realized that this type of change is in order, and we have no difficulty supporting the contents of the bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the hun. the minister speaks now, he closes the debate. The hon. the Minis Ler of Justice. Mr. Dicks: Yes, thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I should say in closing, as well, that The Corporations Act, although this bill addresses the method of transition and details that in perhaps -better fashion, The Corporations Act was, I think, a laudable change in the law, supplanting The Companies Act which had been in existetice for a very long time, and I think the matter was well conceived and execu Led by the previous L25 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R25

- . Government. I think what this bill does, as my colleague suggests, the Opposition critic, is clear up some things which became evident once the bill was introduced as being matters that in practice should be further addressed, I [hank her for her concurrence in the matter, and I therefore move second reading. On motion, a Bill, "Am Act To Amend The Corporations Act," read • second time, ordered referred to • Committee of the Whole House, on tomorrow. Mr.Fure: Mr. Speaker, Order 20 Bill No. 64. Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act To The Western Memorial Hospital Corporation Act, 1947". (Bill No. 64). Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Decker: Mr. Speaker, this is not a major amendment to The Western Memorial Hospital Corporation Act. Hon. members will know that the vast number of hospitals in this Province come unde.r The Newfoundland Hospitals Act. However, there are some exceptions which do not come under the act. Western Memorial Hospital is onc., the Grace Hospital is another one - the church facilities, St. Clare's and the Grace Hospitals, they do not come under The Hospitals Act. Western Memorial does not. They have their own Act, which was put in place in 1947. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in recent years there have been changes take place on the West Coast as far as Hospital Boards are concerned, and The Western 'Memo r'ia 1 Ho s pi tal Board now is responsible for the Bonne Bay area, they are also responsible for the Burqeb area, and it is quite possible that over the years that Board could even he expanded to ,take in other areas on the West Coast to stay in keeping with the way modern medicine is progressing. Mr. Furey: Bonne Bay. Mr. Decker: Now, Mr. Speaker, although the Board is responsible for Bonne Bay and For Burgeo, there is no representation on the Board.

There is nothing in The Hospitals Act which allows for representation from Bonne Bay and from Burgeo. The department has several options. We could ask to have the Western Memorial Hospital put under The Hospitals Act, There are many things we could do, but we have decided that the fastest way to do it would be to ask hon. members to allow us to change the Act whereby we can add two additional members, and these two members will be appointed as soon as Government has authority to do it. We want to make sure there is representation from Burgeo and from Bonne Bay.

An Hon.Member: Liberal members Mr.Speaker: The hon . the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to s p e a k to this bill, not only because I am now the Opposition Health critic, but because I represent the District of Humber East, where the Western Memorial Regional Hospital Headquarters is located. Two of the main hospital buildings are located in the District that I represent. This amendment seems to be simple and sensiblc.. I appreciate the I . S 1-26 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R26

. 0 explanation of the Min:i.ster of Health I realize the expansion of the hospital over the last few years, with the divestiture by the Department of Health of the former cottage hospitals at Burgeo and Norris Point to Western Memorial Regional Hospital. And I certainly see the need for the Burgeo and Bonne Bay areas to have representation on the Hospital Board.

As I understand it, the total number of members of the Hospital Board through this bill will be increased from nine to eleven, and the number of Hospital Board mombers through this bill will be increased from nine to eleven, and the number of Hospital Board members appointed by the Lieutenant—Governor in Council will be increased from four to six. When the minister speaks to close the debate, I would like to indicate if what I am saying is correct.

I would also like him to outline the overall composition of their proposed enlarged Board; and to indicate how, that compares with the composition of other hospital boards in the Province? Finally, while he is speaking about the board of the hospital, I wonder iF he might indicate his appreciation of the requirements of the board, whether they number nine or eleven, for finances from the Minister's Department to carry on their excellent operations? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. r..peakec If the Minister of Health speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. Minister of Health. Mr.Decker: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank hon.

Members on the Oppo s tion f o r the s ti'nu lati ng debate which we have entered into as we try to bring Forward this piece of legilation. And being an open Government we will listen to all the advice which hon. Members have given us, Mr. Speaker, and we will certainly take this into consideration. And as the hon. Member suggested, I think it is an appropriate time to pay tribute to the various board members who -have given so much of their time over the years and have made it possible for that Western Memorial Hospital board to he the great progressive board that it is, Mr. Speaker. The hon.

Members will know that that is the only board in the Province, I believe, where somo. members are elected to that board. This is quite common across the nation, to elect members to hospital boards, and it is certainly something that Government will look at, look at the pros and cons. And there are pros and there are cons to doing that, Mr. Speaker. But being the progressive Government that we are, we are continually looking for new ideas and we sift them through, and we pick out the good things in them, and we discard the bad things.

And that is the wonderful thing about being a Government which listens and is wide open, Mr. Speaker. We are going to continue on that For many years to come, I hope, but I thank hon. Members for supporting this amendment to the legislation. On motion, a bill, " A n Act To Amend The Western Memorial Hospital Corporation Act, 1947," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of t h e! Whole House on tomorrow, by leave. (Bill No. 64). L27 November 30. 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R27

Mr. Baker: Order 22, Mr. Speaker. Before we move to the second reading of the bill, I want to, on behalf of all the hon. Members of the House, welcome forty—two students from Roncalli Central High, Avondale, accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Stack. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Principal Agreement Ratified By The Avalon Telephone Company Act, 1938". (Bill No. 54). &. Saeaker: The hon. Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Gullage: Mr.

Speaker, this bill deals with an amendment to The Avalon Telephone Company Act, 1938, and eliminates a telephone tax which has been collected since that time by the telephone company on behalf of the St. John's Municipal Council.

Because currently, and for some time now, I do not know about the majority but a lot of homes throughout the Province, and particularly I guess in the urban areas, have more than one telephonc..The fact that a telephone tax has been in place, or is in place, in this particular Act, allows for a tax, per telephone, it makes for a very unfair taxation on a given household because of the numbers of telephones in place. So it is really a nuisance tax and the city of St. John's council wishes to eliminate the tax.

In fact, regulatory authorities now are frowning upon the idea of power companies or telephone companies, utilities per se, collecting taxes on behalf of municipalities in any case. And that is really what is happening in this case. So it is really just a more or less r o u t i n e amendment to the Avalon Telephone Company Act, 1938, eliminating the telephone tax being collected by the telephone company on behalf of the city of St. John's. And I would move second reading. Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Burin - Placentia West. Tobin: Mr.

Speaker, you know, it i obvious the Minister does not know the bill very well. We have checked this out thoroughly and there is a whole lot of reasons, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister never made reference to as to why this is here, Mr. Speaker. He didn't say anything about the. fact that the council is gc'ing to lose $80,000 revenue as a result of what is taking place. He didn't make any reference •to that, The city of St. John's will be losing $80,000 revenue as a result of this bill. He made no reference to the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that the big problem with the present legislation is that it is difficult right now with the boundaries of St. John's and the exchange numbers which go beyond the St. John's boundaries, as to who to tax. He made no reference, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that it was basically a tax that was paid on the lease of telephones where now other people are purchasing telephones and the lease does not exist. So, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the Minister does not know the bill very well, but I understand the city of St.

John's, while they are somewhat concerned about losing $80,000, has no great difficulty with it. . . No. 88 R28 L28 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI

. . .2iP&ft2P_S!uPS!L: (Inaudible) Mr. Speaker: IF the. M i n i s ter speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Gullage: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was of course aware of all the points made by the hon. Member. In fact I initiated this particular change in The Avalon Telephone Company Act when I was a member of city council, and that is where it started. So I am obviously very, very, very familiar with all the details. and the reasons that this was brought forward. And in fact the revenue will be made Lip by way of other sources of revenue by the St.

John's City Council. I do not think they will have any trouble making up for the loss of revenue. It has been requested by the city council and does not present any difficulty, and I would move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act to Amend The Principal Agreement Ratified By The Avalon Telephone Company Act, 1938," read a second time, ordered referred to a Comrni ttee of the Whole Hose on tomorrow, by leave, (Bill No. 54). Mr. Baker: Order No. 23, Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 55, "An Act To Amend The Buildings Accessibility Act, 1981".

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Buildings Accessibility Act, 1981". (Bill No. '55). An rnbe: (Inaudible Ms Cowan Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I 'think that there a r e very few cojimen Ls I have to make on this particular bill, other than to say that it is to iake some improvements in making hotel sites and so on more accessible to our handicapped people in the Province, and it is not somethini that I believe the Opposition will have problems with. Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Harbour Main. Mr ..Qyj: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we To not have any great difficulty with this bill, the Building Accessibility Act. , The changes come ahoutas a result of a review committee which were looking into the building accessibility regulations. They are small changes but I would say to the Minister they are very important changes as well. Like changing the definition of a building to include other buildings like apartment buildings and hotels and what have you. And the definition of a physically disabled person, of course, is broadened somewhat. . And the definition of a public building is broadened.

And one of Lhe good things about the Act I believe is that it tightens up the procedure. It tightens up the procedure for obtaining construction permits so that individuals who do go into renovation of buildings have now got to conform to the Building Accessibility Act. So, as the Minister says, it is a small bill, but it is an important bill as well. And that is the only comments we would h a v e on this bill, Mr. Speaker. Mr ._.EQaR.e I:: The hon. Minister of E:ruployrneni a n d Labour. If t h e Minister 1.29 November 30, 1990 Uol X L I No. 88 R29

. speaks now she closes debate. Ms Cowan: Yes, thank you very much for your comments, to the hon. Member From Harbour Main. And I would also like to say thank you to the Building Accessibility Committee which is a top notch committee and has done a lot to advance the cause of the disadvantaged in the Province. With that, Mr. Speaker, I would move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Buildings Accessibility Act, 19811, (8i11 No 55), read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the 'ole House on tomorrow, Mr. Furej: Order 24, Mr.

Speaker, Bill No. 59, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act". Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act". (Bill No. 59). Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour. Ms Cowan: Yes, a g a i n a small change, Mr. Speaker.

This bill would amend the Occupational Health and Safety Act to provide the Province with the authority to enter into agreement with other Governments so that persons employed by those Governments in various federal and provincial bodies would be able to serve as Occupational Health and Safety Officers on their behalf. Now, this is a bill that is related to Hihernja, in other words, what we are asking for is that we would be able to give authority to the Canada/Newfoundland Of Fs hore Petroleum Board in matters related to Occupational Health and SaFety OFfshore Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main.

Mr. Doyle: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister points out it is not a very controversial bill in itself, it simply provides for authority for the provincial Government to enter into agreements with the federal Government so that people who are employed with the federal Government, may also act as Occupational Health and Safety Officers. The only comment I would have for, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, which may not he directly related to the bill, is that it may be an idea for the Minister to have a look at the Occupational Health and Safety people in her own Department.

It might be an idea for the Minister to turn her thoughts inward toward her own Occupational Health and Safety people, because I saw a story in The Evening Telegram yesterday euenng in which her' own Occupational Health and Safety people refused to report For wurk because of conditions within h e r own Department.

These people who normally would be entitled to 100 square feet of space to do their work, have been, according to The Evening Telegram story, herded into the Minister's Department like cattle and they have to work under conditions which are less than desirable; thirty—five square feet, I believe these people are being provided with. They wanted to get a little hit 01: space in order to do their work in I . . 1-30 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R30

C . . a c on Fi d e n t i. a 1 e nv I r 0 nrne n L an ci t h e y a r e put into th±rty-Live square feet of office space, and that is pretty ironic when you get right down to it, because these people are charged with the responsibility of monitoring or enforcing occupational health and safety and here it is, the same people who are charged with that responsibility don't have decent working conditions themselves.

So I would• say to the Minister, while it is not dirctly related to the bill, it might be an idea for the Minister to have a look at her own occupational health and safety people and see if she can provide a little bit of a good working environment for these people as well. So that is the only comment we would have to make on that bill, Mr. Speaker, Mr. 5.p..?aker: If the hon. Minister speaks now, she will close the debate. The hon. the Minister OF Employment and Labour. Ms Cowan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thanks for the comments of my hon. critic, as far as regarding the bill is concerned.

I move second reading. On motion, •a bill, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act', (Bill No.59), read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole on tomorrow. Mr. Furey: Order 27, Mr. Speaker, "An Act To Amend The

Summary Proceedings Act", (Bill No. 63). Motion, second reading. of a bill, "An A c t To Amend The

Summary Proceedings Act". (Bill No. 63). Mr........ _P±r.: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr...........Dicks: Yes, thank ydu, Mr. Speaker. It is a very simple amendment to the Sunnnary Proceedings Act. What it will enable the Attorney General to do, is to designate persons other than peace officers to issue a summons by way of a traffic ticket for parking violations. I think it is fairly simple, Mr.

Speaker, it will simplify for the public, a method of paying the fines, first of all, because it will be a ticketing system rather than a summons system and it will also, for the benefit of municipalities particularly, allow their local enforcement officials, who are not necessarily peace officers, to do it as well. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Oppo.sition. Mr. Rideout: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we certainly concur with the Minister that this is not a very earth—shattering amendment, and we have no difficulty with it. .

I would assume, particularly for municipalities, it would be very convenient to have people who issue parking tickets and other tickets for other violations to be able to issue those. The only thing I want the Minister to answer when he rises to close debate is what about tickets on private property, for example, where there are private security firms? - over around CBC television, for example.

It has not happened to be personally, but I understand if-a person goes over to CBC television to do an interview and parks in an inappropriate place, you can have a $50 ticket before you leave, and they have their own private security that icsues those tickets. Is this amendment meant L3 1 November 30, 1990 Uol XLI No. 88 R31

r L to al].ow the Minis ter to be able to d e s I g ii ate pr i u ate s e c u r i t y Finns around private property to be able to issue tickets, or is it basically meant to be able to accommodate the needs and requirements of municipalities? That is the only question I would have, Mr.Speaker? Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Minister speaks now he will close the debate. The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Dicks: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not familiar with the situation the hon. member describes.

We might extend it to public buildings, but the essential part of the amendment, as. it was engendered by the Department was, we have a difficulty with municipal enforcement offices and whether or not they are peace officers within the Criminal Code. I guess it was quite some time ago I spoke with the President and one other official of an association which had lust been formed. They pointed out this problem, and I indicated to them we would try to resolve it so that there would not be any question about their ability to do this.

I will be frank with him, I had not considered whether or not we would authorize people other than these individuals to do it. But, on reflection, it might make sense, say, for instance here to have someone ticket people at the building. I am not sure of the auspices under which that is carried out. An Hon. Member: That is true. Mr. Dicks: That is violation, so I would not want to say we would not do it. I think perhaps what we will do is indicate what Rideout: The university is another good example. Mr. Dicks: The university is another good example.

So certainly for provincial Government organizations I would think it would be consistent and to the public convenience to allow our own officials to do it. But other than that, on private property I do not think we would. Now, the only thing with CBC is it is a Federal Crown Corporation, and our own Provincial Crown Corporation as well, and we might have to consider that. 'But I am not sure of the basis on which CBC is able to give out $50 tickets, and whether or not that is under some municipal regulation or prou.ncial regulation. I do not know where that comes from. Mr.R.

Aylward: They did it at, Avalon Telephone, too, one time. Parking tickets (inaudible) private company, they set their own fees and issued the tickets, and somebody took them to court. Mr. Dicks : I will enquire in to it, Mr. Speaker. As I say, I aiim not familiar with that practice. This was not the intent . of the. bill. It is certainly broad enough, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition indicated, to enable any person to do it, but we would be very careful about whom we authorize.

We would probably extend it to people within the provinciaL Government service, and conceivably any legitimate public organization, such as the federal Government and its agencies. I think that might be a legitimate request as well. But certainly beyond that, not on private pr a pert y . L32 November, 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R32

. I3ut things such as CBC might indeed be in the order of the property of a public corporation, but that was not the i n t e n t of it. But is is broad enough to do it, and we might, in fact, do that. But I will check with the Department and see what if any problem there is and probably correspond with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on it. I therefore move second reading. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The

Summary Proceedings Act," read • second time, ordered referred to • Committee of the Whole House, on tomorrow. £1.r.__Baker: Order 4, Mr. Speaker On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on said Bill, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole Mr. Chairman: Qrder, please! - A Bill, "An Act To 'Amend The Municipalities Act." (Bill No 23) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. Mr.Baker: Order S.

A Bill, "An Act To Provide For The Regulation of Motor Vehicles Used I] In The Transportation Of Persons Or Goods For Compensation", (Bill No, 12). & Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. . A Bill, "An Act To Repeal Certain Obsolete And Spent Statutes" (Bill No. 21). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Mr. Baker: Order 7, Bill No. 15, Mr. Speaker. A Bill, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Securities'. (Bill No. 15). Mr. Chairman: Shall Clause 1 carry? The hon. the Minister of Justice Mr. Dicks: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move an amendment to one of the clauses of the bill. Paragraph (

u) of subclause one, of clause 36 of this bill I would move is amended by striking out the words "but an issuer that has relied upon this exemption may not again thereafter rely upon this exemption." An Hon, Member: What clause is that? Mr. Dicks: Clause 36 (1) (u) . believe the Clerk is distributing that Mr. Baker: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if we might have a brief recess to give the Opposition a chance to have a look at that (inaudible), maybe a five minute recess Ms Verge: (Inaudible). Mr. Dicks: Oh, yes, that is amended as ell. , I am sorry. There are two amendments .

I thought you were referring to amendments other than what were on the paper, but there is an amendment to have it come into L33 November 30, 1990 Vol. XLI No. 88 R33

C efFect April 1st, 1991. And there is also an aie.ndment to clause 36, 1 (

u) MsVee.: (Inaudible) Mr. Dicks: Yes. What it is, is the first amendment changes a general prohibition against ever relying again upon the exemption, to change it to once in a twelve month period, and the wording is here so that those words will be deleted. I do not know if you wish me to read it into the record, Mr. Chairman. I know my critic and the Leader of the Opposition have the wording there, but for the record, if I could pick . up where I left off, to delete the words that I referred to. An Hon. Member: Are they still going to recess? Mr. Dicks: Okay, yes. We will take a recess. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Rideout: If I could have a few minutes before Mr. Chairman: Th.e hon. the Leader of the Opposition Mr...._..MQYt: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the recommendation made by the Government House Leader, that we take a five minute recess so we can have a quick look at this. I do not anticipate any difficulty. But the other thing I want to mention, Mr. Chairman, we are proceeding in a very co—operative air here this morning but, at the same time, I would like to ensure that proper order prevails .

I am not certain on either side of the question, quite frankly, but something seems to twig in the b a c k of my mind that a minister introducing the bill cannbt introduce the aniendments. I believe some other minister, - like the Government House Leader, would have to give notice of the amendments. I believe that is the correct procedure. I am not certain, but something seems to twig, and maybe that is something we could check out during the recess, as well. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Government House Leader. Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Leader of the Opposition I believe is 100 per cent -correct, now that he mentions it. Perhaps if I could formally introduce these two amendments that have already been presented and then - Mr. Rideout: I would not want them to be out of order and not enforceable. Mr. Dicks: That is right. Mr. Baker: No. You are absolutely right. Tha.t is one of the clauses in Beauchesne. So, Mr. Chairman, I would Formally introduce the amendments and suggest a brief recess while members opposite have a chance to look at that to make sure there is nothing funny going on here Mr. Rideout: (Inaudible) amendment. Mr.

Chairman: Yes, it is true somebody else has to move the amendment, and the hon. Govrnment House Leader - An Hon. Member: The hon. Government House Leader just did. He just moved them. .peaker: Okay, we will recess . S r 1.34 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R34

for five minutes? Efl.9fl.L!II.: Yes, okay, Sir Recess Mr. Speaker: Order, please! On motion, clauses 1 through 35 carried. Mr. Speaker: Shall clause 36 as amended carry? £1 Yra: Mr. Chairperson, on behalf of the Opposition I would like to express support for this proposed amendment. It was advanced to the Social Legislation Review Committee by groups I mentioned earlier, and it facilitates a relaxed requirement for security sale in limited • situations, defined in this paragraph involving sophisticated purchasers.

It se:ems to achieve the balance that everyone has strived to attain of protecting purchasers on the one hand, and facilitating the raising of equity capital by businesses. When I spoke in debate on second reading I made the point that there is a concern in t h i s Province that the bill errs on the side of protecting purchasers and makes the requirements on businesses or issuers too onerous, too expensive to be of practical benefit for most business ventures in our Province. This is a step in the right direction I believe, a step that can -benefit some of the businesses in our Province.

And, as I said in debate on second reading, I would urge the Government, along with their economic advisors, to explore possibilities of amending this legislation in the Future along the lines of the pilot proj ect in Washington State, For example, to facilitate the raising of equity capital by small businesses in our Province. A Bill, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Securities." '(Bill No. 15) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill with amendment, carried, Mr.,_Baker: Order No. 8. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Dangerous Goods Transportation Act And The

Summary Proceedings Act." (Bill No 37) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. nBaker: Order No, 9. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Young Persons Offences Act." (Bill No. 36) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried Mr. Baker: Order No. 10 A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Members Of The House Of Assembly (Retiring Allowances) Act, The Public Service (Pensions) Act And The Uniformed Services Pensions Act." (Bill No. 44) Mr. Rideout: Mr. Chairman. Mr. -_Chairman: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, Mi,........Rideout: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Leader L35 November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R35

[1 of the Opposition, I arh sorry. Mr. Rideout: I did not know what you called me, Sir, but as long as you recognized me that is the important thing. The commencement date for this bill is deemed to be January 1, 1989. Is there a particular reason for this? I am always hesitant to see retroactive legislation unless I have a good explanation for it. £lr. Chairman: The hon. the Government House Leader. Mr.

Baker: I believe the explanation is that during the last round of collective bargaining there were certain changes agreed to and some of it in the Uniformed Services Act throuqh the collective bargaining process that there is compensated for the RNC and so on, and that is the reason for the retroactivity, that that is where that originated in the collective bargaining. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Mr. Baker: Motion No, 3. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act, 1988." (Bill No. 48) Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition Mr.

Rideout: Mr. Chairman, we realize that we are into Committee of the whole on

An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act and we would just like to make one more point on the Highway Traffic Act. The Bill has been debated in principle, it has been adopted by the House a n d we are u n d e r no illusions that the various sections of L h e bill, will be adopted by this Committee., nor, are we under any illusions that third reading will be approved by the House even if the Government has to resort to its favourite tactic of closure. But We do want to say once again, Mr.

Chairman, that we feel that the amount of percentage increases in the various fines under Bill 48, the Amendments . to' The Highway Traffic Act are onerous. An Hon. Member: Draconian, Mr. Rideout: They are draconian. They are unnecessary, unless, of course, the Government were. to admit what it really is doing and that is trying to soak out of minor traffic violations every tax dollar that they can get their hands on, Mr. Speaker. That is the point behind it. And I think that is the only other point that we as an Opposition would want to make.

It is not just an ordinary revision, upward revision of fines, but it is a major, major escalation in fines, some of which are very, very minor and the taxpayer of this Province is going to pay through the nose For t h e d r a c on ian me a s u r e s L Ii at tic- Minister is proposing, Mr. Speaker, An Hon. Member: He should be ashamed. He should be ashamed. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act, 1988." - Mr. Baker: Mr. Chairman, I wonder, if by leave, we could continue on with the bills that we did second reading of this morning?

If we could, by leave, go to third reading or Committee stage, I am sorry, of these bills . I believe they are numbers 16, 53, 64, 54, 55, 59 and 63. . A L36 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R36

Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have no difficulty at all in complying with the request by the Government House Leader with one exception. I wonder would the Government House Leader be prepared to leave Committee of the Whole consideration of Bill No, 46 for the next day? Mr. Baker: Absolutely. Mr. Rideout: There is a possibility we' may want to propose some amendments to that bill. r__Baker: Okay. Mr.Rideout: It is a complicated bill, and it might take a bit of time, but the rest we will be • happy to accommodate the Government House Leader, Mr.

Chairman, Motion, that the Committee report having passed the hill lAd thout amendment, carried. Mr.Baker: Committee of the Whole on Bill No. 54, Mr: Chairman. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Principal Agreement Ratified By The Avalon Telephone Company Act, 1938". (Bill No. 54). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Mr. Baker: The Committee of the Whole on Bill No. 55, Mr. Chairman. A Bill, ."An Act To Amend The Buildings Accessibility Act, 1981." (Bill No. 55). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried, Mr.

Baker: Committee of the Whole, Mr. Chairman, on Bill No. 59, a familiar number. Mr. Chairman: Okay, by agreement, we will stay in Committee of the Whole to consider certain bills. Mr. Baker: Committee of the Whole on Bill 53, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Bill 53 A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Corporations Act Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Mr.Baker: Bill 64, Mr. Speaker'. A Bill, "An Act to Amend . The Western Memorial Hospital Corporation Act, 1947" (Bill No. 64). Mr. Chairman: Bill No. 59.

A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Oc c up a t ion a 1 H cal L h and S a i'e ty Act" (Bill No. 59). Motion, that the Comitritee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried Mr. Baker: Bill 63, Mr. Chairman. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The

Summary Proceedings Act" (Bill No. 63). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Mr.Baker: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise and report progress On motion, that the Con',,nit Lee rise, report progress and ask L37 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R37

. leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. - Mr. The hon. the Member for Bellevue. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report Bill Nos, 23, 12, 21, 37, 36, 44, 48, 53, 64, 54, 55, 59 and 63 without amendment, and also Bill No. 15 with amendment, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted, Bill Nos, 23, 12, 21, 37, 35 44 48, 53, 64, 54, 55, 59 and 63, without amendment, ordered read a third time on tomorrow; Bill No. 15 ordered read a third time on tomorrow, amendments ordered read a first and second time now, by leave. On motion, amendments read a first and second time. Mr.. Baker: Motion 4, Mr. Speaker. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider resolutions to guaranteeing certain loans under The Local Authority Guarantee Act, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole Mr. Chairman: Order, please!

Motion 4. esolution That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1967, to provide For the guarantee of the repayment of loans macft to, a n d the advance of loans to certain Local Authorities. - Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Ricleout: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We are continuing debate now on the guarantee bill for local authorities for municipalities.

Actually in essence what it is, is, this House guaranteeing funds advanced by the Government during the last fiscal year, for water and sewer projects in various municiialities around the. Province for the cost-shared programmes like the 60/40 paving programmes between the Province and the municipalities and so on. I just have a few remarks, there has been a couple of days debate I believe already on this bill, or a couple of attempts at it anyway, over a couple of days, and by .and large we have no difficulty with the bill.

I mean these funds have been expended and all this is doing is formalizing the Government guarantee. Over some period oV time the NMFC , t h e Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation will go out and borrow the money that has been guaranteed in this bill and repay the banks and it will become part of the overall debt of the Province guaranteed through the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Financing Corporation. But what triggered the to want to make a few remarks on this bill when it came up again, Mr. Speaker, was comments made by the Minister of Finance in the House a week or so ago.

I am not quite certain whether it was in Question Period, in Reply to Questions, or . ri L38 November 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R38

. r In . whether' in fact it was in debate on the SupplelTentary Supply Bill, I am not quite certain now, hut I do remember specifically— I do remember specifically, the Minister of Finance making the comment, that one of the fiscal problems that this Province is experiencing today, is the way that the previous Administration, previous Government, I don't know why he should say lust previous Administration because it has been: I believe the Loan Guarantee Act was introduced in 1957, so it has been a fait accompli for financing municipal services in this Province now for three decades or longer.

But the Minister of Finance made the observation that one of the fiscal straightackets that the Province finds itself in, Mr. Chairman, is because of the way we finance municipal capital works in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we finance those capital works Of course, through loan guarantees in the first instance, issued to the municipality, and secondly then by paying off those loan guarantees through financing arranged by the Municipal Financing Corporation. And e v e r y municipality in the. Province pays on its long term debt in proportion to its ability to pay.

I think the minimum requirement under the Municipalities Act at the moment is 20 per cent of fixed revenue, and that goes from there to larger communities or larger municipalities who have a larger tax base, who can pay a larger proportion or indeed all of the share of its long term debt. But the Minister of Finance left the dis tinct impression that there was somethinj wrong with this, Mr.

Chairman, that because of the way municipal capital programmes a r e financed, the Province was saddled with a horrendous d e b t and that leads to, I believe, a very fundamental question that should be asked while we are considering this bill. The very fundamental question is this: If this method of financing municipal infrastructure and municipal improvements in Newfoundland and Labrador is wrong; if it is something the Government can't live with, what is the alternative?

What a 1 tern at i v e doe s the Go v e r nil e n t have to offer to small municipalities, inids:ize municipalities, what alternatives does Government have to offer to municipalities outside of the larger, more independent urban centres in Newfoundland and Labrador, and that is the fundamental question, Mr. Chairman, that must be answered. We know the makeup of the communities in Newfoundland and Labrador, we know that communities like Ming's Bight and Pacquet and Harbour Round and those places will never ever, never ever, Mr.

Speaker, he able to Finance, municipal infrastructure that might in fact cost in excess of $1 million to put a water and sewer system into those communities We know that it will never happen in our lifetime or perhaps ever in anybody's lifetime, that those smal+ rural municipalities without a tax base, with a very small population will be able to finance infrastructure like water , and sewer and road paving and so on. And every Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, since 1949, but more particularly since 1957, when the local guarantee Act was brought L39 November, 30, 1990 vol XLI No. 88 R39

. in, recognized that fact.

It also recognized that there is a responsibility on all of us, whether we live in the larger more affluent centres or whether we live somewhere else, to try to even out the costs,, to be able to make it possible for people who are independently making a livelihood in the Mings Bights of Newfoundland and Labrador to have accessibility to reasonable municipal services, and this was a way of doing it, through the Loan Guarantee Act, through financing of the municipal corporation, and through the Department of Municipal Affairs on behalf of the Government, subsidizing the cost and the community paying 'a percentage of its fixed revenue.

That is how it was done so the key question now remains, Mr. Chairman, OF this puts the Province in a horrendous financial' situation, as the , Minister of Finance indicated, in this House lust a few days ago, what is the alternative? How are small rural communities in Newfoundland and Labrador now going to be able to access funding to build new community infras tru c ture like building new ' water and sewer systems? Surely, goodness, Mr. Chairman, it is not the intention of this Government to say that only those communities who can afford to pick up the lions share of the cost will be considered for funding.

I hope that is not the intention of the Government, to make sure that small rural communities in this Province remain forever poor that they will always be the poor cousins in the municipal structure of Newfoundland and Labrador. I find it very disturbing. 'I find the comments or the Minister of Finance on this matter a few days i:go in t h i s House very, very disturbing and particularly when they ar' 'thrown o u t in a vacuum with no indication of what the new system or the new structure might be. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout: Mr.

Chairman, it does not matter whether anybody is listening or not, the debate must continue, the member has been in the House long enough to know that. Mr. Chairman, the Government during the election process a year and a half or so ago, made some mention of this new super Crown Corporation that would own all municipal infrastructure in the Province and finance municipal infrastructure in other parts of the Province not yet serviced. tie have not heard anything basically about that since the Government took office.

It is almost like it has totally disappearing but maybe it dd inadvertently surface on the floor of this House a few days ago when the Minister of Finance made another one of his now famous comments that this system of financing municipal infrastructure cannot continue in Ncwfo u ndia rid and Labrador. Well, if it cannot continue I want to know what. the Government' s alternative plan is, because I am worried, particularly in the kind of district that I represent and for most of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am worried that the people who live in the smaller rural communities will not have the ability, with Government support, to be able to improve and deliver municipal services to the people of those communities . I mean we are living in 1990 in the great country called Canada and people have a right to expect basic services and they have the right to expect them on a equitable basis, and it mat ters not whethe rthe, cc'rirrirunaty . LW November 30, 1990 Vol XLI No. 88 R'tO

. . C is large or small, midsize or whatever, it is providing basic services to people, to people in communities where they want to stay, where the can make a livelihood, where they can earn a living. The community might not be viable as a municipal entity but by goodness, Mr.

Chairman, the community is a viable economic community in terms of people earning a livelihood and of raising their children and educating their children and I do not want to see any measure by Government that is going to upset the right and the privilege of people to be able to work and live in rural Newfoundland and at the same time have the right to expect reasonable municipal services. It will always be the case in this Province, Mr. Chairman, unless this Government is going to become ultraconservative and swing extremely to the right.

It will always be the case in this Province where there will have to be a kind of subsidized system to be able to provide basic municipal services to small rural communities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and I am worried when I hear comments from the Minister of Finance that we cannot afford this anymore. Nell, are you telling the people in Harbour Deep or on the Coast of Labrador that they cannot expect to have water and sewer services installed over a reasonable period of time?

Are you telling them they cannot have it because they cannot afford to pay for it, and that will never -happen in most of, in hundreds and hundreds of communities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and if there is an opportunity, o n e opportunity during this session of the House, Mr. Chairman, to try to flesh out, to try to get out frorri the Government what its intentions are,then this bill is an 141 November 30, 1990 vol XLI appropriate place to do iii..

And I hope tha I: s ornehody on behal F of the Government will, at least m a k e an •effort to give us some, some glean, some idea, that il -this system is not affordable by the Government what kind of plan, what is the programme, what is the plan, for future financing of municipal services in rural Newfoundland and Labrador in particular. We have no difficulty in the larger. centres. Most of them, thank goodness, have a reasonable tax base and they can contribute significantly towards the cost of their debt. But ; Mr.

Chairman, that only applies to a number of communities in Newfoundland that you can - you would hardly use up the fingers of both hands in counting up those communities. What about the other 300 or 325 incorporaU.d municipalities in the Province? They will never have a tax base like a Donovans Industrial Park. They will never have a tax base like Gander or Grand Falls or Corner Brook or Stephenville, but yet they a r e. viable economic entities that can provide, a livelihood for people in Newfoundland and Labrador. - And the people liviny in those communities deserve a c c e s s to reasonable municipal services.

And I think that question should be answered, Mr. Chairman, before this bill is apprpved. An Hon. Member: That is right. An Hon. Member: Sure. An Hon._Member: Answer. Mr. Chairman: The hon. Member for Mount Pearl InJinsor: Thank you, Mi-'