Manitoba Hansard — 2 November 2015 (Sitting 75, 40th Legislature, 4th Session)

40-4-75

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXVII No. 75 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, November 2, 2015 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James, Hon. Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BLADY, Sharon, Hon. Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna, Hon. Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne, Hon. St. James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Greg, Hon.

Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon.

Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MELNICK, Christine Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Thomas, Hon. Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder, Hon. The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie, Hon. Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC Vacant Gimli – Vacant Southdale –

2739 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 2, 2015 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr.

Speaker: Introduction of bills? We'll move on to committee reports. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Tourism, Culture, Heritage, Sport and Consumer Protection): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the following reports from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Heritage, Sport and Consumer Protection: 2014-2015 annual report for the Manitoba Art s Council, the 2014-2015 annual report for the Automobile Injury Compensation Appeal Commission, 2014 annual report for Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and also the 2014 -15 annual report of the Manitoba Residential Tenancies Commission.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I have the Manitoba Human Rights Commission Annual Report 2014, Legal Aid '14-15, Department of Justice '14-15 to table. Mr. Speaker: Any further tabling of reports? Seeing none, we'll move on to ministerial statements. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS East Side Eagles Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Today I'd like to recognize the talented and tenacious 2015 East Side Eagles peewee football team. Some of the players and coaches of the team are here today. These players have managed to hold their heads high through a heartbreaking season.

We're joined today by some of the team's coaches and players. I know first-hand that football is a team sport that can shape the character of young players both on a nd off the field. While the game itself helps players learn about teamwork, sportsmanship and discipline, the team's environment can also teach young players how to build friendships, work with a diverse group of people, tackle new challenges and roll wit h the punches both on and off the field. These are all the foundations of a young person's character, and it will determine how they respond to the challenges they face every day.

This year the Eagles peewee team had an un - defeated eight-game season. Unf ortunately, because of an administrative error, they weren't able to con- tinue on in the playoffs, a big disappointment to the team, to say the least. But these boys proved that a team sticks together through thick and thin. The resilience, co -operation a nd class that they demon - strated was truly inspiring. As a former East Side Eagles player myself, I learned how to deal with both the victories and losses. Both involve respect for the other team and for the rules of the game.

I played on teams that were undefeated and I played on teams that struggled to cobble together a couple of wins all season. What I remember years later are the teammates I played with, the great coaches and the respect that I learned. Respect gives us the adaptability and the energ y to carry on when things don't go as planned. I can see that the East Side Eagles have that respect, and it has allowed them to walk away from the playoffs with their heads held high. Now, with the playoff upset behind them, the Eagles are busy preparin g for an upcoming game in Minneapolis.

I know this isn't probably how they thought they would finish the season, but I also know the East Side Eagles now have a bit more experience under their belt. They know what it's like to get knocked down; they also k now what it's like to get back on their feet and keep fighting no matter what. Congratulations to the East Side Eagles on their co-operation, hard work and eight straight wins of the season. Good luck in Minneapolis, and we'll see you next year. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask leave of the House that the names of the 2015 East Side Eagles peewee team be included in the Hansard here today.

2740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave of the House to include the names that the honourable member has men - tioned in his statement? [Agreed] Peyton Crerar, Zachary Lytle, Ike Plett, Muludesta Yitna, Gage Richey, Ashton Boutang, Isaiah Carriere-Krah, Dylan Normand, Skyler Griffith, Wyatt Penner, William (Billy) McCluskey, Ayden Weiner, Donovan Dobson, Harrison Gonske, Evan Blakey, Mekai Saillant, Nick Holtmann, Dontea Cameron, Shiv Harper, Mataeo Mohamed, Charles Trey Peterson III, Hunter Cosette -McDermid, Tyrell Trinidad, Kyle Watt, Tyler King, Carson Chamberlain Brass, Julean Garcia, Gloria Plett, Niko Jokic, David Wheeler II Processing Plants For Cattle Industry Mr.

Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, when BSE hit this province and, indeed, all of Canada in 2003, the American border slammed shut. Cattle producers were left without markets, prices dropped and the cattle industry in Manitoba was devastated. I was one of those cattle producers. We knew the impacts would be long- lasting to the cattle industry. Cattle producers lobbied the NDP to develop a processing plant that would take pressure off our reliance on live export from our province. What did the NDP do? Well, they decided that a processing plant should be built in Dauphin.

They then went to a plant in the US that was being decommissioned and paid $4 million for used plant equipment, which was transported to Dauphin. What happened? The equip- ment sat for several years. The pro cessing plant was never built, and the plant equipment was eventually sold for scrap at pennies on the dollar. Net loss: $4 million. The NDP then had another bright idea. They said, we will collect $2 per head on all cattle sold in Manitoba and we will u se it to develop processing capacity. The NDP set up a board, they collected 7 and a half million dollars in levies from the producers, and what happened?

No processing was developed. The fund disappeared and, finally, the board was disbanded. Net loss: $8 million. It's now been over a decade since the BSE outbreak. Manitoba has no additional processing capacity. The NDP have been a total failure on this file. Not only did the taxpayers and cattle producers pay more and get less, in this case they paid over $12 million and got nothing. Cattle producers of Manitoba remain at the mercy of out -of-province markets and border re - strictions.

Cattle producers have paid more and got nothing due to the high level of mismanagement, broken promises and ineptitude of this NDP government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First Nation Soldiers Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Mr. Speaker, as we move towards Veterans' Week, I'd like to take a moment to remember our First Peoples in Canada's military who sacrificed their lives for the freedoms which we enjoy today, yet so often take for granted. Aboriginal soldiers made very significant contributions to the world wars, and yet for a very long time their stories were never told.

Despite the federal government's refusal to offer ful l citizenship, more than 7,000 First Nations people enlisted to serve our country in the First and Second World Wars and the Korean War. Because only those who fell under Indian status were counted, the number of Inuit and Metis people who served are unknown. In Manitoba, opportunities like Remembrance Day and Aboriginal Veterans Day allow us to remember heroes like Sergeant Tommy Prince of the Brokenhead Ojibway Nation, one of the most decorated First Nation soldiers in Canadian history.

While serving, First Nation soldiers had to overcome prejudices and perceptions, and adapt to a military hierarchy that worked exclusively in English. Despite these struggles, First Nation soldiers left a remarkable record of wartime accom - plishment, some of which has only been acknow - ledged in the last few decades.

Many drew on traditional hunting skills and wilderness experience to acquire near legendary status as snipers and scouts. * (13:40) The returning soldiers hoped that their sacrifice and achievements on the battlefield would lead to greater recognition from the federal government, a re-evaluation of their treaty rights and improved living conditions. Sadly, many soldiers, especially those without Indian status, were not given the postwar benefits they deserve d, nor did their return alone initiate a new era of civil rights for First Nations people.

Many First Nations veterans became politically active and their voices contributed greatly to the ongoing advancement of First Nation rights.

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2741 In the years since the world wars, First Nations people have been active members of the Canadian Armed Forces, helping to establish peace around the world. War should never be glorified, but those who made the ultimate sacrifice must never be forgotten. This includes Canada's First Peoples, whose cultural, political, spiritual and military contributions to our country deserve to be recognized and honoured. We are proud of the accomplishments of our First Nations soldiers and their communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Zebra Mussel Infestation Mr.

Shannon Martin (Morris): Mr. Speaker, Manitobans have grown accustomed to NDP govern- ment's heel -dragging lac k of strategy on important issues. This kind of mismanagement, however, has now led to damage to the province's largest and fourth largest lakes. The province –the provincial Conservation and Water Stewardship Department confirmed on October 9th that zebr a mussels had infested Lake Winnipeg's north basin to the point that nothing can be done. The minister went on to publicly declare, and I quote, that it is not reversible, end quote, just days after saying he hadn't given up.

This invasive aquatic specie s is a serious threat to the economy and the environment on Manitoba's lakes, not just the commercial fishing industry, but recreational fishers and the health of our waterways. Despite knowing as far back as September 2009 that zebra mussels had made their way into the Red River basin, it took the NDP over six years to introduce and proclaim legislation and to begin educational campaigns to curb the spread. Mr.

Speaker, just last week the minister con- firmed that despite knowing about the imminent threat posed by this invasive species, the Department of Conservation didn't create a separate funding to deal with them until 2014. The NDP undertook a science experiment against zebra mussels 18 months ago, and though it was more aimed at garnering headlines than actually working, the NDP government declared victory after dumping several hundred tons of potash into four harbours at a cost of $500,000, funds that could have bought approximately six more portable decon- tamination units.

Less than a year and a half later, the NDP has gone from declaring victory to declaring the lakes a lost cause. And this declaration can't be overstated, Mr. Speaker, as it –as Lake Winnipeg directly and indirectly adds billions to our economy. We have known for several years t he long-term cost of zebra mussels on the health of our lakes, accessibility of our beaches and the cost to municipal and hydro infrastructure, but we will know –but we may not know what the long- term implications will be. Manitobans are tired of the NDP' s broken promises and want a change for the better.

We can no longer afford a government whose mismanage - ment is threatening our lakes and waterways. Thank you. Bonnie Schmidt Hon. Thomas Nevakshonoff (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, it is with heavy hearts that my colleagues and I mourn the untimely passing of an incredible member of our community, Bonnie Schmidt. Bonnie passed away suddenly but peacefully in her home on October the 15th at the young age of 52. Bonnie dedicated her life to her friends and family and was an active member of her community.

She was a competitive athlete and excelled especially in curling, as the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) knows, as she co- chaired the 2009 Safeway Select host committee with him. Bonnie also dedicated her life to the progressive movement. She organized several major successful fundraisers to make life better for people in palliative care in Selkirk and Gimli. As a committed New Democrat, Bonnie worked on over 30 election campaigns across Canada, including many of our campaigns here in Manitoba, and she worked for many years at our provincial office.

Right up until her passing, she continued to serve the people of the Interlake as my executive assistant. She made my life easier by tackling the difficult casework and many of the big issue files. Bonnie worked with compassion and dedication because she believed that government has a role to play in making life better for everyone. She believed in standing up for the poor, the underprivileged and the average person, and her priorities never changed. As her colleagues and friends, we say to Bonnie: Thank you for working shoulder to shoulder with us

2742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 for all of these years. Your life truly made a difference, and we will never forget you. On behalf of the Legislative Assembly and the people of Manitoba, I extend our condolences to her family. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I have some guests that I would like to introduce. We have–seated in the publ ic gallery today we have from HS Paul School, we have 50 grades 5 and 6 students under the direction of Ms.

Shannon Young, and this group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Seine River (Ms. Oswald). On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome all of you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Saskatchewan Trade Restriction Impact on Manitoba Businesses Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, Mr .

Speaker, the NDP government and the Premier have adopted, in respect of trade, isolationist policies for some time, and now the response from the Saskatchewan government is apparently that Saskatchewan Crown corporations will not allow Manitoba small bus inesses to bill–to bid on jobs. Opportunities to provide goods and services to the people of Saskatchewan will be limited as a result, and seven Crown corporations are going to be engaging in this practice as a response, I suppose, to the NDP's isolationist strategies.

Now, Manitobans know that they can compete given the opportunity, but the Premier has, because of his intransigence on this issue over many years, closed the door on Manitoba jobs and Manitoba growth by failing to partner in the New West Partnership. I'd like him now to outline his reasons for keeping Manitoba out of the New West Partnership. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): I thank the member for the question. Manitoba has a greater proportion of trade going east and west to provinces in Canada than any other province, over 50 per cent.

As–just a few months ago we signed a major energy agreement with the Saskatchewan Power Corporation, Mr. Speaker. Hundreds of millions of dollars of energy are now going to flow to the west of us that have never been done before. And I point out that the Leader of the Opposition has said we should not be building hydro for export purposes, either to Saskatchewan or to anybody to the south of us.

He's willing to cancel $9 billion- plus of orders for Manitoba Hydro, which would keep our rates low, keep our Crown corporation among the most affordable in terms of providing electricity and home heating of anyone in North America. That's his approach to trade: cancel lucrative contracts. What right does he have to challenge trade when he's prepared to take a position like that? Mr. Pallister: Well, the Premier doesn't know his own agenda, Mr. Speaker, so it would be beyond believability that he would know mine. All the more reason, Mr. Speaker.

Manitoba depends more on interprovincial trade than every other province. All the more reason that we should be encouraging interprovincial trade with other provinces. Our provincial nei ghbours Saskatchewan and Alberta and British Columbia have opened the door to us on numerous occasions, and the Premier of Manitoba keeps slamming the door shut and saying no to trade opportunities, and this is the logical consequence, it seems, of a prote ctionist government in action. Manitoba companies provide value.

They create jobs, and they can create better opportunities for Manitobans if they're able to provide better value to people in Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC. But the NDP says no to jobs, and they say no to value, and now they're saying nothing about the opportunities we're losing as a consequence of their own policies. And the Saskatchewan government announced more than two months ago, well more than two months ago, that they would be closi ng the door on Manitoba companies. No good or services would be allowed to be provided by Manitoba companies. The Premier wants to point fingers.

I'll point a finger at him now, Mr. Speaker, and ask him: What steps has he taken since learning of this mi sguided practice to protect Manitoba jobs and Manitobans' employment opportunities?

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2743 Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the member obviously is misinformed. Manitoba is one of four provinces working on the internal trade reform in–all across the country because we trade more with all other provinces as a proportion of what we do. We're looking at strengthening the economic union of the country. The member opposite takes the narrow approach. We take the broad approach. We trade east, we trade wes t, we trade north and south, Mr. Speaker.

We want all of those doors open, and we're working with all provinces to achieve that. * (13:50) What measures have we taken? We've put $1 billion of infrastructure out there this summer, Mr. Speaker. That's Highway No. 1 going east and west, Highway No. 10, Highway No. 6, Highway No. 3, Highway No. 2, Highway 75. All of those roads take goods and services to markets. What does the Leader of the Opposition want to do? He wants to cancel that. Bad roads make fo r bad trade. Mr. Pallister: Mr. Speaker, you know, bad premiers make for bad trade.

The Premier speaks about wanting to trade with everyone at the same time, but he refuses to participate in a partnership with Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC and trade with them. It makes no sense, never has, and he's failed to put any reasons on the record as to why he thinks it does. It doesn't, and it's going to result in fewer job opportunities for Manitobans and for Manitoba companies. Now, his own deputy of Finance sa id in Estimates recently that the government is breaking its own rules on internal trade.

If they can't abide by their own rules, if they're handing out contracts that are untendered, if they're covering up the details, and the Auditor General has well pu blicized these realities, if they cannot abide by their own rules, Mr. Speaker, why would any partner across the country believe that they would be a fair and fulsome trade partner? Would the Premier answer that? Mr. Selinger: When greater than 50 per cent of your trade was done with other provinces, that means those other provinces want to trade with us: information for the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, when we sell 125 megawatts of power to the Saskatchewan Power Corporation, a Crown corpora tion, for the first time in history, that shows there's an interest in what we have to offer east and west of us. When we harmonize our transportation regulations to allow trucks to move more easily between provinces, particularly with Saskatchewan and pr ovinces to the west of us, first time that's ever been done, that's historic. And when we build $1 billion of infrastructure to allow our trucking and transportation industry to better access markets, that's historic.

What would the Leader of the Oppositi on would do? He would cancel the highways program. He would cancel the hydro exports program. He would not co-operate with other jurisdictions. It's a double standard, something we've seen before from the leader opposition, a double standard, a protectioni st standard, a do-nothing standard. Trade with Western Canada Government Approach Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): We've been advocating for quite a while on this side of the House to do something, Mr.

Speaker, but the Premier refuses to do it, and that's join the New West Partnership and create jobs and economic opportunities for Manitobans. The Premier likes to export. He likes to export jobs. He likes to export former communications staffers to Alberta. The problem is they're not trading back. Now, the Saskatchewan government doesn't seem to like it very much. They issued a statement this morning, and I'll quote from it. It says, it was surprising to first hear of the concerns raised by Manitoba through the media.

Provinces of every political persuasion deal with each other every day in a professional and respectful manner. The fact that the government of Manitoba chose to raise these matters in the media without any previous communication at either the officials or political level is disappointing. Would the Premier explain why he failed to communicate after months of knowing that this was going to be a problem, he failed to communicate any concerns whatsoever to Brad Wall or even Rachel Notley, the Premier of Alberta? Would he apologize to Manitobans for failing to do so? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has clearly missed the boat

2744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 again. We've been working with all the other juris - dictions of Canada, including those to the west of us, including those to the east of us, including those to the north of us, on the i nternal trade agreement to allow for greater internal trade. We started by –with labour mobility all across the country, w hich allows people to go where the jobs are and return. We've started –further followed up on that, and we just signed it this summer, Mr. Speaker, for apprenticeships.

Apprentices now are able to get credit for the work they do towards their Red Seal regardless of the jurisdiction they working in. That's a harmonization of regulations which allows for more trade across the country. It allows our people–it allows people to come and work here; it allows our people to go work elsewhere. Those are very material and significant accom - plishments. They add to the vitality of this province. We have the best job creation record in the country, Mr. Speaker, of any other province. The best job creation record in the country, and what would the Leader of the Opposition do?

He would cancel all those initiatives. Hydro contracts? He would cancel them. Road contracts? He would cancel them. That's not progress; that's looking backwards. Mr. Pallister: The ninth best record–ninth, Mr. Speaker–ninth best record on economic growth under this Premier, closer to 10th–closer to 10th – than to eighth, I repeat. And the members opposite, if they had any concern for working Manitoba families, would listen. The government of Saskatchewan issued a state- ment today saying it was surpri sing to hear of the concerns.

They said, without any previous com - munication the government communicated to media, not to them. And they went on to say, the substance of the concerns raised by Manitoba is also baffling. Manitoba has been repeatedly invit ed to become a member of the New West Partnership, but they have chosen not to do so. One of the reasons cited by Manitoba are concerns over protecting procurement policies of their Crowns. We would continue to welcome Manitoba's membership in the New West Partnership. Mr.

Speaker, the other provinces in western Canada have an open -door policy for our province, which I would welcome, and I think the people of Manitoba would too. Why does the Premier close the door on opportunities for Manitobans? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I know the member never lets facts get in the way of a false argument. Full-time employment, September 2015, No. 1 in the country, Mr. Speaker. Private employment, September 2015, No. 1 in the country. Unemploy - ment rates, second lowest in the country, 5.1 per cent and getting better. Total employment, No. 1 in the country.

The member opposite has no clue of what he's talking about. He has no program for economic growth in this province. He wants to cancel infra - structure. He wants to cancel hydro exports. He wants to cancel training programs. Mr. Speaker, he wants to cut essential services for families, he wants to privatize the social services and he wants a two-tier health -care system. There's no formula there for our growth. Tha t's a formula for greater inequality; that's a formula for greater division in our community. We are working with all the provinces on strengthening the internal trade agreement.

We're one of four premiers doing that. We're making great progress, Mr. Spea ker, and I invite the member opposite to get up to date. Mr. Pallister: Well, the Premier is shrinking our economy like he's shrinking the membership in his own caucus. Mr. Speaker, he can cite one- month numbers, but the record over six years with him a s Premier is clear: ninth on economic growth, closer to 10th than to eighth. And the government of Saskatchewan goes on in its release to say, the timing of this is also slightly strange.

Provinces are currently engaged in intense discussions on the most ambitious overhaul of the Agreement on Internal Trade in history. Saskatchewan will continue to push for the most ambitious outcome possible. These sorts of comments are counterproductive in the context of these discussions. This is the approach this government's taken; it's obstructionist and it's isolationist as well. Our small - business community is the backbone of our economy. Manitobans are ready to compete. We're ready to compete given the opportunity, and we're ambitious, Mr. Speaker, and we are team players.

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2745 Why has the Premier (Mr. Selinger) decided to stand in the way? Why is he not ready to allow Manitobans to compete? Why does he lack ambition, and why is he not being a team player when it comes to building our economy for the better good of all Manitobans and their families? Mr. Selinger: The member opposite has completely missed the boat again. Mr. Speaker, when you're No. 1 for trade with other provinces, that shows that we're getting results. When you have an apprenticeship agreement w ith other provinces, that shows co- operation.

When you have a labour mobility agreement, that shows we're getting very significant results in terms of co-operation. All of those factors –when you have hydro sales for the first time in history to the west of us, Mr. Speaker, that shows great advantage for Manitobans. That will keep our rates among the lowest in North America. What would the member opposite do? He would do the same thing that he did with the telephone system; he would sell it off and take the rates from among the lowest to among the highest. Our 'remates'–our rates remain among the lowest because we've got $9 billion-plus in export contracts.

For the first time ever, some of those exports are to the west of us, Mr. Speaker. That makes a gi gantic difference, and the Leader of the Opposition, he will cancel that, along with the roads program. New West Partnership Agreement Need for Manitoba Participation Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): The only one who has missed the boat here, Mr. Speaker, is this Premier who has jeopardized business in Manitoba by refusing to join the New West Partnership. Mr. Speaker, five years ago, the NDP govern- ment in Manitoba had a choice to make.

They could join with neighbouring provinces to the west in a partnership established to reduce trade, investment and labour barriers for all participating provinces, yet the NDP chose not to. And according to Statistics Canada, and, as well, the Premier admitted ear lier, Manitoba relies more heavily on interprovincial trade than any other province in Canada.

In fact, according to the CFIB, 57 per cent of small -business owners sell goods to other provinces, the highest percentage of any province in Canada. * (14:00) The Minister for Jobs and the Economy has frequently stated in the past that small business represents the backbone of our economy, Mr. Speaker, and the future growth of our economy. So why, then, has he put them in jeopardy by refusing to join the New West Partnership? Hon. Kevin Chief (Minister of Jobs and the Economy): Manitoba is at the centre of the country. We want to continue to take full advantage of that geographic, Mr. Speaker.

We do as much trade to the east as we do to the west. Businesses want us to have a strong national agreement, including delegations from the CFIB. They want to make it easier to do business in Canada from province to province. That's one part of our plan to support trade. The second

part is to build world- class trade infra - structure, more than $5 billion for roads, highways and bridges that get Manitoba's goods to market faster. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I'm glad the –I'm glad that the member–or the minister mentioned the CFIB, because, in fact, 73 per cent of small-business owners in Manitoba are in favour of Manitoba joining the New West Partnership, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, but that's not all.

In fact, six months ago the Saskatchewan government announced that in order to maximize all oppor - tunities available within the New West Partnership, seven Crown corporations have adopted a New West Partnership Trade Agreement procure ment pre - ference policy. Because the NDP has refused to sign on to the New West Partnership agreement , this means that any busines s in Manitoba that currently does business with these Crown corporations will be in jeopardy. This is a huge disadvantage for Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister just admit that by refusing to join the New West Partnership, he has put Manitoba business at risk and jeopardized economic growth in our province? Mr. Chief: Mr. Speaker, here's the facts. When it comes to Manitoba's trade infrastructure plan, our businesses understand it. They support it. In fact, they helped build it. Here's what Chr is Lorenc had to say: These investments go far beyond just building more highways and overpasses. They equip our trade - reliant economy with a transportation system that

2746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 makes us more productive and competitive as we grow our global trade footprint. Think about the major trade routes, such as Highway 75: $19 billion north- south trade -related supports; Perimeter Highway connected to Trans - Canada Highway, which links our country coast to coast to coast; or CentrePort Canada Way. The important systems help sustain 240,000 jobs in Manitoba directly or indirectly enabled by trade. Our businesses, Mr. Speaker, they understand our trade infrastructure plan. They support it. In fact, they helped build it. Mrs.

Stefanson: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is another example of this NDP government dropping the ball on economic growth in our province. They have placed Manitoba businesses in jeopardy by refusing to join the New West Partnership. In fact, the minister of trade in Saskatchewan extended an olive branch. He sai d, and I quote: We would continue to welcome Manitoba's membership in the New West Partnership. End quote. Mr. Speaker, the question is: Will this govern - ment do the right thing and accept it? Will the minister–the minister has a chance to do the right thing.

Will he agree today to join the New West Partnership? Mr. Chief: Mr. Speaker, here's what the member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer) had to say to the Winnipeg Free Press about Manitoba's trade infrastructure plan: I've driven around CentrePort a number of times and I've tried to wrap my head around what it's supposed to be. I've been around infrastructure projects a long time, but that one remains a mystery. That's what the member, the critic for Infrastructure, had to say about CentrePort Canada Way. Well, Mr.

Speaker, any time the Leader of the Opposition wants a brie fing to educate his critic, I'd be more than willing to set that up. In fact, I'll invite Chris Lorenc and Diane Gray to join us, and they can explain why Manitoba's a model when it comes to trade infrastructure in the country. Saskatchewan Trade Restriction Impact on Manitoba Businesses Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden-Winkler): Mr. Speaker, Grandeur Housing is a manufacturer of modular structures. It employs hundreds of people in the city of Winkler. Grandeur sells their products throughout Manitoba and in provinces including Saskatchewan.

Grandeur has been bidding on Saskatchewan Power opportunities since 2000. They do $1 million worth of contracts each year for 15 years with SaskPower. And Grandeur wrote to this Minister for Jobs and the Economy about these new measures being undertaken in Saskatchewan that would make Grandeur unable to do work with Saskatchewan Crown corporations. These contracts would be wiped out while this minister has done nothing to get Manitoba inside the New West Partnership. What explanation does the Minister for Jobs and Economy have for this Manitoba business? Hon. Kevin Chief (Minister of Jobs and the Economy): Mr.

Speaker, facts remain: Validator after validator, private sector forecaster after private sector forecaster says Manitoba continues to have one of the strongest economies in the nation with one of the best job growths, one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation, and why? Because this government stands with businesses like Loewen Windows and businesses in Steinbach like Valeant, where we're helping train over 200 employees. Mr. Speaker, we continue to be able to support a strong economy.

Just recently we were able to announce of how we're putting women at the front of our trade classrooms to make–send a strong message that there is no job a woman can't get. At the end of the day, there's announcement after announcement of how we're working closely with our businesses to make sure that we continue to have one of the fastest growing economies in the nation. Mr. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, last week when this issue emerged, the Minister for Jobs and Economy responded in the media, saying that he was surprised by the new requirements of Saskatchewan. He wanted to discuss them as soon as possible. But, Mr.

Speaker, in a September 25th letter that I table for the House –it's a letter sent to the Minister for Jobs and Economy and copied to my office – Grandeur includes documents from Saskatchewan Construction Association detailing to this minister these changes to procurement policy. The letter asks, why doesn't Manitoba join the New West Partnership? There has been no reply to Grandeur other than a receipt of correspondence. Mr. Speaker, this is baffling. The media is being told by this minister that he is surprised by the

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2747 information and he's sitting on the information the whole time. Why? Mr. Chief: Mr. Speaker, once again, Manitoba, we're taking advantage of our geographic location being in the centre of the country. We do as much trade to the east as we do to the west. What I could say is businesses, both locally and nationally, have called for us, as provinces, that we're deeply committed to a strong Agreement on Internal Trade, a new agreement, a March 26 deadline. Our government's committed to that, as are provinces all throughout the country.

We're going to work hard to make sure we meet the deadline by March 2016 and make sure that our businesses are staying competitive and Manitoba continues to have one of the fastest growing economies in the nation. Mr. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, let's be clear. He knew for months and he did nothing. The minister says that the move by Saskatchewan to shut out Manitoba companies surprised him, but the letter was on his desk, and other businesses stand to lose access to a significant market. In this letter it says, if these new rules go into effect, it will have a negative impact on jobs in Manitoba.

There was no response to that 25th of September letter, so they wrote the minister again on October the 21st, and I table the letter. Still no reply. Baffling and strange. Mr. Speaker, Grandeur and other Manitoba companies want to know how big could this get. It's seven Crown corps now, but if it gets bigger, it could amount to half of Grandeur's business. The minister says he's surprised, but where is the minister's action when it comes for standing up for Manitoba companies and Manitoba workers? Mr. Chief: Mr.

Speaker, when we –we're committed to internal trade, committed to making–to meeting our deadline in March–by March 2016. In fact, we were very proud to be part of a trade infrastructure luncheon. Our keynote speaker was John Law, president of Lawmark International, co-author of Building on Advantage: Improving Canada's Trade Infrastructure. The Leader of the Opposition asked about Manitoba's trade infrastructure plan, and here's what John Law had to say for the Leader of the Opposition: Manitoba is committed to the long -term plan.

He said Manitoba's plan works closely with the private sector, and, simply put, what John Law had the message for the Leader of the Opposition, simply put, he said, Manitoba is doing it right. New West Partnership Agreement Need for Manitoba Participation Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, Alberta has announced preferential pricing for craft breweries based in Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC. Manitoba craft breweries have been left out in the cold because this NDP government has refused to join the New West Partnership.

That refusal has placed roadblocks in the way of Manitoba businesses. * (14:10) When is this NDP government going to improve trade for our business community by joining the New West Partnership? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister responsible for Manitoba Liquor and Lotteries Corporation): Mr. Speaker, first of all, we're very pleased as a government to be working in partnership with the restaurant association, hotel association. The changes we made–the minister from Kildonan made a number of changes with regard to the liquor control act, first time in about 60 years, very, very positive changes.

We have a number of different businesses that are seriously looking at opening up new micro - breweries in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, again, all the jobs related to that. We make the best barley in the world to make beer, Mr. Speaker, the best hops. Have a barley sandwich and relax. Mr. Briese: Mr. S peaker, microbreweries in Manitoba are just the latest victims of the NDP refusal to join the New West Partnership. I ask again: When is this NDP government going to join the New West Partnership and stand up for Manitoba's microbreweries? Mr. Lemieux: You know, Mr.

Speaker, all joking aside, I mean, we've worked with Alberta and Saskatchewan, British Columbia and all the provinces of Canada with regard to craft beer. We continue to work in partnership with them and learn what they've accomplished and h ow they've accomplished it. They're letting us know the best way to proceed. So this continues every day as I speak.

2748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 So we're very pleased to let the public know –of Manitoba–that–all those beer lovers in Manitoba – that there are many looking at, right now , investing in Manitoba to start up new microbreweries, Mr. Speaker, and craft beer is truly growing in leaps and bounds. And we're going to be pleased to be a partner with all those businesses and make sure that they're a success. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speake r, microbreweries such as the Farmery, which is in my constituency, Fort Garry, Half Pints and many others have now been penalized by the policies of this government.

Their costs of moving their product into western Canada have increased by 20 to 40 dollar s per keg since last week. When will this NDP government wake up, do the right thing and join the New West Partnership? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, first of all, we're one of the only provinces –in fact, I believe we're the only province to have open bord ers with regard to wine, for example, coming to this province and working with other provinces. But, Mr.

Speaker, what's really concerning to me is–listening to the member opposite –is that we know with their privatized and privatization agenda, and liquor and our liquor stores and liquor distribution is just another one of those areas that they're looking at. And finally we start to hear from the member opposite from Neepawa talking about where he wants to go with regard to this issue. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we believe in protecting those jobs, hard- working civil servants in Manitoba working in our liquor stores doing a fantastic job, and when we hear the opposition with regard to privatization, very similar to the Liberal Party, wanting to privatize our liquor stores and all the distribution centres in Manitoba. Family Services Agencies Out-of-Province Travel Expenses Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, it was our understanding when we last brought forward the issue of out -of-province travel for employees of child-welfare agencies that the minister has indicated that this government would be putting an end to this practice. It would seem not so. Freedom of information information shows that as recently as April 2014 travel was authorized to such wonderful destinations as Cancun, Las Vegas and Anaheim, California. Can the government tell us what instructions she has given to child and family services agencies on this issue? Hon.

Kerri Irvin -Ross (Minister of Family Services): We work very closely with the devolved child-welfare agency, includes authorities and agencies. They are–they work with us, but they are stand-alone organizations that we work with every day. Mr. Speaker, w e supported devolution. We support indigenous-led organizations working within their communities and with their families to address the issues. If the member has a specific claim he'd like me to look into, I will welcome that. Thank you very much. Mr. Wishart: Well, it would seem, Mr. Speaker, that this province has shown little leadership to these agencies.

This problem of out -of-province travel for child and family service agencies has come up many times before, and a review of travel reveals that most are seminars on employee benefits, nothing to directly benefit the child and family services clients. Does this minister think th is is okay, to spend child-welfare dollars on this type of seminar? Ms. Irvin -Ross: What we will continue to do is work with the system, the child-welfare system, with the authorities and the indigenous -led organizations, the agencies that deliver that pr ogram.

We're going to continue to provide them with support so they can deliver prevention programs which are vitally important to supporting families. We support them every day in the work that they do. They have very difficult jobs, going into families where there is a crisis and working with that family to resolve it with the ultimate goal of keeping the child safe but also keeping that family together. And looking at what are the different initiatives that they can put into place, we have Families Fir st which we're funding; we have Healthy Baby program that we're doing.

We're committed to providing better services for complex kids. We're working with those agencies and author - ities every day to make a difference. Mr. Wishart: Well, Mr. Speaker, trav el to exotic destinations for employee benefit training costs approximately 10 times as much as the same training

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2749 supplied here in Manitoba. I do not agree that that is the best use of the dollars. Why would this government approve travel at such a great cost when the same service can be provided here in Manitoba? Ms. Irvin -Ross: Let's talk about what supports the child-welfare system and families in Manitoba. It is increasing funding by four times when the members opposite decreased it by $4.5 million. It is investing in prevention programs such as Families First, the Mothering Project. Those investments are making a difference. It's about investing in housing.

When the members opposite were in government, they didn't spend a dime on either building new housing or making sure that the existing housing was going to be maintained. It's about supporting foster parents. They cut foster parents rates multiple times when they were in government. We're going to continue to work with the agencies and the aut horities to provide good quality service for all Manitoba families. Restaurant and Bar Industry Wholesale Pricing for Alcohol Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba has the highest wine prices in all of Canada, while right next door in Saskatchewan, a province with a similar population, they enjoy being among the three provinces with the lowest wine prices in all of Canada. The minister has suggested that the difference is merely nickels and dimes, but this government has nickelled and dimed the wine prices in our province to higher than any other province or territory. I ask the Premier: Why has he been using the government monopoly on liquor sales to gouge Manitobans with such high prices? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member opposite, because he will know that the service provided to Manitobans through the Liquor Marts which are in various communities throughout Manitoba is among the best you can get. With a wide array of products –and by the way, we have free trade in liquor –in wine all throughout the country. We were the first jurisdiction to open our borders from wine from any other jurisdiction, something never done when the members opposite were in office.

So we will continue to o ffer a very good quality and range of products to Manitobans with well - informed advice and make sure that they have access to the finest products in the world. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the report released today by Restaurants Canada cites the fact that bar and restaurants get no form of wholesale pricing here in Manitoba. This approach is very unfriendly to any bar or restaurant owner, forcing them to make the cost of enjoying a drink with their meal very expensive for Manitobans when they go out.

Will the Premier adopt the Manitoba Liberals' approach and allow–and provide wholesale prices to restaurants and bars in our province? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the member will know that we've had a dramatic improvement in the liquor laws in this province, in cluding for wine and beer sales. We've taken the number of licensing categories from multiple double -digit categories down to two. We've made products more available. We've allowed small restaurants to–where families can come in and bring a bottle of their preferred wine if they wish. We've opened up a number of opportunities.

The industry and the restaurant association has responded very positively to the recommendations we've made. We've provided incentives for craft beers in Manitoba, and now we have a couple of major craft breweries in Manitoba, with another four to six in the pipeline. * (14:20) Mr. Speaker, we're modernizing the experience of the liquor laws. We're doing that while ensuring that people have good jobs, and also ensuring that we continue to have social responsibility. The member opposite is talking about priva - tizing the liquor and lottery system in Manitoba.

That would diminish social responsibility, that would reduce the number of good jobs in this province, and more importantly, it would take resources away that are used. The profits are used to support health and education. He would reduce and cut funding to health and education. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, it's not just about this government's exorbitant liquor prices.

2750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 As the report says, listing new standard products can be very tedious in Manitoba. Special orders are really tedious. As the report card says, because there's no room for negotiation, it eliminates the potential for consumers to benefit from enhanced choice as well as lower prices. Manitoba Liberals, unlike the NDP, believe Manitobans are very capable of making their own choices when it comes to the products that they want. I ask the Premier: Why will he not do what Manitoba Liberals will do? Why will he not trus t Manitobans to make their own choices? Mr.

Selinger: The member hasn't followed what the changes have been made in the liquor laws. We have lowered the surcharges on craft brewery products manufactured and produced in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, that creates good jobs in the province of Manitoba. There are some people that like to brew their own wine, Mr. Speaker, and ferment their own wine. We've created laws that now allow them to go to a facility to be able to produce their own wine in Manitoba, never done before. But what we won't do, Mr. Speaker, is what the Liberals are proposing to do.

We won't privatize it and abandon our responsibility for social respon- sibility. I've heard the member from River Heights get up many times and ask about treatment for addictions. His approach would reduce the amount of resources available for people suffering from addictions. We will look after people with addictions. We'll modernize the experience for those that can consume the products, and we'll make sure that people have access to affordable craft brew and homebrews in Manitoba done safely. But we won't abandon social responsibility like the member opposite is going to do.

Investment in Education Small Class Size Initiative Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Mr. Speaker, Winnipeg's West End continues to be one of the most diverse and exciting communities in the province, and West End families know that the key to bright futures for their children is education. And last Thursday I was pleased to visit Sister MacNamara School on Sargent Avenue with some of my colleagues for an announcement on more progress on supporting our children's education.

It was great to see children excited not just about a new classroom for Sister McNamara School but also about Halloween this past weekend, even though we know there's some members in this House that are less enthusiastic about the holiday. Can the Minister of Education and Advanced Learning inform the House on our progress to date on measures to ensure that children and their teachers are well supported? Hon.

James Allum (Minister of Education and Advanced Learning): I was with my friend from Minto and my sister from Logan at Sister MacNamara last week, and then I was at George Fitton School in Brandon on–last Friday to announce Manitoba's continued contribution to the small class size initiative. Mr. Speaker, we've invested over $13 million in 'nage' initiative to date, which has resulted in the hiring of 380 more teachers in Manitoba.

We've increased the number of classes with 20 students or less by 61 per cent; we have cut down the number of classes with 24 or more students by more than 59 per cent; 91 per cent of our classes have 23 students or less, and some 66 per cent of classes met the target of 20 students or less. Mr. Speaker, parents love this initiative; teachers love this initiative; administrators love this is – initiative; students love this initiative. When children of Manitoba come to our front door, we open that door and embrace them. When the Leader of the Opposition opens his door, he gives them a lump of coal.

Zebra Mussel Infestation Funding Commitment Mr. Shannon Martin (Morris): Mr. Speaker, if the NDP spent as much effort fighting zebra mussels as they do fighting amongst themselves, perhaps Lake Winnipeg wouldn't have been declared a lost cause. The minister says the budgets are complicated, Mr. Speaker. What's not complicated is that under the NDP they will allocate more resources to severance packages for political staff than they will fighting zebra mussels.

Can the minister explain to Manitobans why his government will spend 50 per cent more, or $250,000 more, on severance packages for political staff in 2015 as compared to fighting zebra mussels?

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2751 Hon. Thomas Nevakshonoff (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for the question because it gives me the opportunity to make the point that the amendment to The Water Protection Act to include aquatic invasive species was proclaimed today. This was a very important step in the right direction to fight zebra mussels.

And members opposite may have given up on lakes like Lake Winnipeg, but we have not, and we have not given up on containing the infestation and preventing the spread to the other 99,000- plus lakes in Manitoba. So, Mr. Speaker, this is work well worth doing, and we will continue despite the politicization of the issue. Members opposite delayed the passage of the amendment to The Water Protection Act in June to the very end of June, Mr. Speaker, so, you know, we've– Mr. Sp eaker: Order, please. The honourable minister's time on this question has elapsed. Time for oral questions has expired. PETITIONS Mr.

Speaker: It is now time for petitions. Minnesota-Manitoba Transmission Line Route– Information Request Mr. Dennis Smoo k (La Verendrye) : I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Minnesota -Manitoba transmission line is a 500-kilovolt alternating-current transmission line set to be located in southeastern Manitoba that will cross into the US south of Piney, Manitoba.

(2) The line has an in -service date of 2020 and will run approximately 150 kilometres with tower heights expected to reach between 40 and 60 metres and be located every four to five hundred metres.

(3) The preferred route designated for the line will see hydro towers come in close proximity to the community of La Broquerie and many other communities in Manitoba's southeast rather than an alternate route that was also considered.

(4) The alternate route would have seen the line run further east, avoid densely populated areas and eventually terminate at the same spot at the US border.

(5) The Progressive Conservative caucus has repeatedly asked for information about the routing of the line and its proximity to densely populated areas and has yet to receive any response.

(6) Landowners all across Manitoba are concerned about the impact hydro line routing could have on land values. We petition the Legislative Assembly o f Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro to immediately provide a written explanation to all members of the Legislative Assembly regarding what criteria were used and the reasons for selecting the preferred routing for the Minnesota - Manitoba transmission line, including whether or not this routing represented the least intrusive option to residents of Taché, Springfield, Ste. Anne, Stuartburn, Piney and La Broquerie.

This petition was signed by L. Wachal, H. Wilson and C. Monchamp and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In keeping with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Applied Behavioural Analysis Services Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary treatment such as applied behavioural analysis, also known as ABA services.

(2) The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early intervention and AB A therapy for children with autism.

(3) The preschool waiting list for ABA services has reached its highest level ever with at least 68 children waiting for services. That number is expected to exceed 148 children by September 2016 despite commitments to reduce the waiting list and provide timely access to services.

(4) The current provincial government policy now imposed on the ABA service provider will

2752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 decrease the scientifically proven, empirically based and locally proven program and force children to go to school at age five before they are ready, thus not allowing them to full–them full access to ABA services prom ised them as they wait on their wait-list. * (14:30)

(5) Wait -lists, forced decrease in service and denials of treatment are unaccept able. No child should be denied access to or age out of eligibility for ABA services. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the ministers of Family Services, Education and Advanced Learning and Health consider maki ng funding available to address the current waiting list for ABA services. This is signed by G. Mercier, K. Koop, D. Roncadin and many, many other fine Manitobans. Proposed Lac du Bonnet Marina– Request for Research into Benefits and Costs Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) Lac du Bonnet is a recreational area with great natural beauty.

(2) The Winnipeg River is one of the greatest distinguishing cultural and recreational resources in that area.

(3) Manitoba marinas increase recreational access and increase the desirability of properties in their host communities.

(4) The people of Lac du Bonnet overwhelm - ingly support a public harbourfront marina in Lac du Bonnet. We petition the Legislative Assembly as –of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider collaborating with other levels of government to research the economic benefits and construction costs of a marina in Lac du Bonnet. This petition is signed by S. Marty, D. Pefo, C. Grant and many more fine Manitobans. Request to Reduce Speed Limit along Road 9E, LaSalle, Manitoba Mr. Shannon Martin (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to the petition is as follows: The community of LaSalle, Manitoba, continues to see significant residential growth, including new developments along Road 9E.

(2) As part of this growth, additiona l active transportation improvements are being constructed by the RM of MacDonald, including the installation of walking paths.

(3) One of these paths is less than 10 feet away from Road 9E, a gravel road where the current speed limit is 90 kilometres an hour.

(4) Families and individuals, including those with small children and pets, are concerned about the safety of using walking paths with high -speed traffic being within such close proximity.

(5) Interconnecting roads, including Road 47NE and Vouriot Road, have speed limits of 70 kilometres an hour and 50 kilometres an hour respectively. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to recognize the potential danger of allowing high- speed travel on a gravel road immediately adjacent to a walking path. And (2) to request that the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation consider reducing the speed limit along Road 9E similar to Road 47NE and Vouriot Road. And this is sig ned by K. Peters, K. Peters, A.

Giesbrecht and many, many other fine Manitobans. Manitoba Interlake–Request to Repair and Reopen Provincial Roads 415 and 416 Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The Interlake region is an important trans - portation corridor for Manitoba but, unfortunately, is still dealing with serious underinvestment in infrastructure under this provincial government.

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2753 Provincial roads 415 and 416 are vital to the region but have still not been repaired or reopened since sustaining damage during the 2010 flood. Residences and businesses in the Manitoba Interlake are seriously impacted and inconvenienced by having no adequate east -west travel routes over an area of 525 square miles. This lack of east -west travel routes is also a major public safety concern, as emergency response vehicles are impeded from arriving i n a timely manner.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the provincial government repair and reopen the provincial roads 415 and 416 to allow adequate east-west travel in the Interlake. And this petition is signed by K. Bibeau, J. Sweezie, L. Slater and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Any further petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to grievances. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: Seeing no grievances, we'll move to orders of the day, government business. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, can we resolve the Assembly into Committee of Supply? Mr.

Speaker: We'll now resolve into the Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair, and the various committee Chairs to the committee rooms. Thank you. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH, HEALTHY LIVING AND SENIORS * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the last item, resolution 21.1, of the Estimates for the Department of Health, Healthy Living and Seniors. Are there any questions? Seeing none, I will now put the question. Is–resolution 21.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $10,670,000 for Health, Healthy Living and Seniors , Administration and Finance , for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Depar tment of Health, Healthy Living and Seniors. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is for the Department of Justice. Shall we briefly recess to allow everyone to arrive? [Agreed] The committee recessed at 2:44 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 2:53 p.m. JUSTICE Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): In the Estimates we'll notice a continuing reorganization of the department for greater efficiencies and greater outcomes. The Civil Law division was created just last year, which accompanied what I'm sure the member knows was the removal of Civil Legal Services from SOA status, which was then combined with Family and Constitutional Law to create an integrated Legal Services branch.

In this fiscal, the reorganization of the division continues with the transfer of the Criminal Property Forfeiture office, Legal Aid, policy analysis and development branch and the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner to the division. Also part of the division is the Human Rights Commission, the Public Guardian and Trustee SOA and the Manitoba Law Reform Commission. Combining the branches and independent offices into one division streamlines the administrative structure of the department, and enables knowledge sharing and the development of best practices. The

2754 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 amalgamated Legal Services branch along with the transfer of the policy analysis and development branch provides greater flexibility and search capacity in responding to legal service demands. The Community Safety Division was established last year through the merger of the Corrections and Criminal Justice an d that includes now provincial policing, Aboriginal and Community Law Enforcement and the new Independent Investigation Unit, or what we'll call the IIU.

The reorganization of this division has improved corporate leadership for a more integrated approach to community safety; increased capacity to focus on the objectives of prevention, intervention and suppression; find efficiencies and drive innovation for greater safety. It places greater focus on the provision of planning and standards and evaluation, and will provide greater centralized co-ordination after service delivery. Reviews of areas were undertaken within community safety to drive efficiencies and recognize resources that could be reinvested to improve front - line services.

One example, just t o be –just to put forward a practical demonstration, is what we're doing in probation services following the release of the OAG's report on adult corrections of workload analysis were undertaken and was completed last May to help inform the response to recommendations aimed at improving the management of offenders in the community. So the analysis included a review of probation officer caseloads, risk level by caseload and urban versus rural caseloads.

Other factors that contribute to workload, for example, contact requirements, presentence report prep, supervision of conditional sentences, program delivery training, the role of specialty units and travel, for example, were taken into account. So I've been briefed on this and it appears that opportunities to realign existing probation staffing to meet the standards and requirements have been identified and there's been some good work occurring.

Among the changes that I've been advised of include the restructuring of centralized First Nations unit that's for a more focused and culturally responsive approach to working with First Nations across the province. Just to deal with the courts. It's combined regional courts and Winnipeg courts. Those two branches existed for quite some time and there's a new branch called Court Operations. That's, again, for a greater focus and consistent delivery. Criminal Law division has seen some changes as well. Victim Services has been transferred into that division with prosecutions.

So in other words, we're pairing now Victim Services and prosecutions, which is very different from my last time here. But that allows a more co-ordinated and lean approach within the department and I'm very pleased with the progress in that regard. I want to talk about justice reinvestment. Th e Innovations branch continues to work at finding efficiencies.

There is a great many challenges in the justice systems of Canada, and I know I've been talking to some other leaders in Canada and, indeed, south of the border, and there are some common- alities and there are some challenges that I think will be successfully met by different approaches. We have to, first of all, realize efficiencies with the greater use of technology. We have to reduce the need to transport inmates from correctional facilit ies to court and back again. We have to use video to a much greater extent, and Manitoba is well positioned to take that to a new level.

Of course, it's not just about congestion in court facilities and demand on sheriff's officers, for example, but there are risks that can be reduced by not having to transport prisoners around the province. The lawyer video program supplements the video court program by enabling the lawyers to meet with clients before court appearances via video, and that's been expanded to Milner Ridge. Milner is the second largest facility in the province, so with that addition the program is now offered in eight of our nine provincial correctional centres.

We've also done work on other fronts, for example, a new custody co -ordination model which, along with the video technology, helps to ensure a better use of judicial resources and reduced trans - portation costs for in- custody matters, and we're looking to expand that to more parts of the justice system. We're looking at a more full y electronic court system. The receipt from police in delivery to counsel with complete disclosure in criminal matters has been recognized as a–as an area for delay in the progress of a case.

So this year Justice working with the Winnipeg Police Services w ill be developing a method to electronically transfer disclosure information to prosecutors including updates to disclosure and then, in turn, electronically provide the disclosure to defence counsel.

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2755 * (15:00) Innovations has also been working with the Provincial Court to strengthen the court scheduling model to increase the number of disposition courts so that we can have a speedier resolution of criminal cases and, as well, we're going to not just continue, but enhance restorative justice principles in the year ahead by referring individuals to other resources when it can be more appropriately dealt with outside of the traditional courts.

And in the weeks ahead, we will be introducing a proposal for a restorative justice strategy that is victim centr ed and we'll be looking for feedback to conclude a greater emphasis on those appropriate measures. So this budget has an overall increase of $9.7 million or 1.8 per cent. The government, since '99-2000, has more than doubled the capacity of Crown attorney s by adding 101 new Crowns, representing an investment of $19 million for salaries. With associated costs, the total increased investment since '99 is $25 million.

As part of the long -term commitments, Justice will be adding an additional 11 Crown attorne y positions this fiscal and six support positions. The budget also provides an overall increase of $6 million for provincial policing compared to '14-15. It will support the police in its role as the provincial police service, and I know the member has an interest in this area. But the province has been terribly impacted financially by the unilateral decisions of the federal government including liquidation of RCMP severance for retiring members, and that's just one example of the difficulties.

The budget includes the new investment of $1.3 million to support the new First Nation safety officer program, and that will replace the federally funded band constable program that was terminated effective March 31 by the federal government. The First Nation safe ty officer program represents a national first in First Nations policing and contains significant improvements over the federal band constable program. There's now going to be a new focus on qualifications and training, a clear legis - lative foundation and program parameters. Those were factors all absent with the former program.

The community safety officer program was launched in April; that was with the City of Thompson, and we are very keen to see that grow and we're going to look very carefully at how that's working for the citizens of Thompson. The IIU is up and running, and the budget contains resources of $1.4 million for the IIU, bringing the total investment to $2.7 million and 14 staff. So I think, in conclusion, while we could talk about crimina l property forfeiture in the introduction, perhaps the member will want to explore that area. I think that's been a very successful model in Manitoba. Thank you. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the minister for those opening remarks. Does the official opposition critic have an opening statement to make? Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Only briefly, Mr. Chairperson. I want to thank the minister for his opening statement and to the staff who prepared it and those who join us here today. The Estimates process, I think, is always a good process in terms of going over different issues within the department. This year, not unlike, I think, two years ago, we're a bit truncated in the process because of things that are happening in the House and how that happened.

So I regret we probably won't have as much time on Estimates as I was – would've liked. I'll blame our House leader for that and he'll take responsibility, I'm sure, in terms of how this turned out. But the–it'll be difficult to do a sort of systematic department-by-department or division -by-division sort of questioning, which I think we've tried to do in the past in years where I was the critic. It would be a bit more all over the map, to use the term, because of the time alloca tions that will be given.

So the minister, I'm sure, will accept that and I hope the staff will accept the apology for that in advance as I know there will be some shuffling in and out as a result of that. But I look forward to the time that we do have and having the discussion about an important part of government. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the official opposition critic for those opening remarks. Just so we're all on the same page, and I'm sure we've all heard this before, under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply.

Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 4.1.(

a) contained in resolution 4.1.

2756 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 At this staff, we'd invite the minister's staff or at least some of them to come up to the head table, and once they're settled, perhaps, Minister, you could introduce them to the committee. Mr. Mackintosh: Joining us at the table are Deputy Minister Julie Frederickson; Aurel Tess, admin and finance; and Shauna C urtin, ADM of Courts; and Greg Graceffo, associate deputy minister of criminal justice, and Lavonne Ross from –acting ADM in civil; and Michael Mahon, the head of prosecutions – ADM, prosecutions and Victim Services. Mr. Chairperson: Awesome.

Thank you all f or being here. Another standard question: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this depart - ment chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Goertzen: I guess Manitoba practice and given the short time frame globally would make the most sense. Mr. Chairperson: Globally has been proposed. Is that acceptable to the committee? [Agreed] Excellent. Thank you very much. It's agreed, then, the questioning for the department will proceed in a global manner. All the resolutions will therefore be passed once the questioning has been concluded.

And wouldn't you know it, the floor is now open for questions. Mr. Goertzen: Can the minister advise the committee whether or not his department at this stage has provided any advice or done any analysis on the potential, not consequences so much, but how the potential legalization of marijuana might operate in the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Mackintosh : Well, that's a good question to start with because the member's rightly identified it as a major issue that's going to hit the justice system of Canada, and not just justice of course, but how we–how this country is going to grow, distribute and retail that product. It raises obvious questions that I can have a discussion with the member about.

But I'll just say, initially, we have stated publicly that we do recognize it's an area where the general population appears to be getting ahead of legislators across North America and, in the result, it has put a very difficult challenge on the des ks of legislators, particularly in American states where their counterpart to a referendum, if you will, or citizens' initiative, has changed the law. And is my understanding in those states the change was not made in the respective state legislatures, and as well, it's out of sync with federal law.

So we have to deal with the challenge here in Canada, obviously, in a different way. And I think we have an opportunity to get it right. It's going to take a lot of work, a lot of consultation. And there are so me that absolutely have to be at the table in those consultations, the provinces first and foremost and, of course, law enforcement. We also have to make sure that we understand all of the impact of marijuana on our health and well- being.

I'm particularl y concerned, by the way, and I'm going to raise a very serious red flag with the federal government when the –when my counterparts are put in place, about the need to mitigate any impact on impaired driving, or on, you know, we can't start backsliding on the progress that we've made when it comes to impaired driving. So there are these challenges, and I think we have to just roll up our sleeves and make sure that while we recognize that the citizens want to move in this direction, it has to be done safely. And that's our job. Mr.

Goertzen: Has the department undertaken any analysis or had discussion with, whether it's other states in the US that have gone through this or with their other provincial counterparts, on how a system like this might look, even on an initial basis? I mean, what efforts have gone under way? And not just since the win of the federal Liberals and their platform, but I'm assuming that this would have been on the radar of the department prior to that. What analysis has taken place on how it might function in Manitoba? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, of course, the early years of countering drug- impaired driving had Manitoba at the table and, in fact, we were leaders in moving ahead with ways to detect drug- impaired driving. That's been recogni zed as requiring the legalization and recognition of standard field sobriety testing. * (15:10) The–and the partners that we have worked with on that one, including MADD Canada and law enforcement, as well, have brought insights to our attention. So tha t remains an area of keen interest and one, by the way, that does have some very

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2757 serious challenges in terms of the ability to objectively measure the impact of THCs on the body and resulting impairment. But I can say right from the minister on down, we've been paying attention to some of the impacts on the states that have had some experience, and we have to learn from those experiences, whether it's Washington state or Colorado, for example. They've gone before us and have had some successes and some, I think, some relative challenges that we will want to avoid here in Canada.

There are issues, whether it's labelling or whether it is zoning, whether it is –of course, the Americans have unique banking challenges because the federal government prohibits the dealing in marijuana by anything other than cash because it's still recognized as an illicit drug federally. And, by the way, that also has resulted in a lack of needed research on the impact of THCs on the body. But we've also learned lessons about how this is not just about net, entirely to the good of tax revenues from a new product on the market. There are costs too. There are costs in law enforcement.

There are costs in addictions and others. So we've learned about that. We've also learned about s ome of the challenges when it comes to protecting youth from this product. So there are many issues that the Americans have identified and that we can pick up from and learn from. So we'll be moving ahead now with our department as a lead, looking and enumerating the issues that have to be addressed by the different departments of government.

It's one thing for Justice to be setting out what are many of the manifestations of a new drug policy for Canada, but we have to recognize there are many departments of government that were–are going to be engaged. Like, for example, there's a big question as to how this product is going to be regulated. Is it, like medical marijuana, going to be a federally regulated and marketed product or is it going to fall to the provinces? There are some constitutional questions that we are asking now that we are going to discern.

Is this a product that liquor commissions across Canada are positioned to deal with, or does the federal government want some different marketing and distribution mechanism? There will be issues for Healthy Living and for the Department of Health because of the addictions issues. There are issues for Jobs and the Economy. There may be issues for Agriculture in terms of cultivation issues. So this really is a remarkable shift in public policy in Canada, and Manitoba is bound and determined to make sure that we are at the table and offering our advice and trying to make this work in a positive way.

I can tell you that I've just drafted a letter to my new counterparts, whoever they are, and some of the main points in that letter that we want to discuss with the federal ministers, or at least the minister responsible for drug policy in Canada, is sitting down and working through these issues. I also unders tand that the federal government is very keen to move swiftly on this one. And that's something where we're going to have to be really careful about it, because we've got to do it right.

Like, we –whether it's youth addictions or the impaired driving I spoke about or whether it's all the other challenges, this is going to have to be done right, and people have to be in the room. Mr. Goertzen: The minister indicated that he drafted a letter to his counterparts provincially across Canada. Can he provide the committee a copy of that letter? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I'd love to but, well, I think I need a minister to send it to first and then I'll copy it to him. And, in fact, we just have been looking at the draft today as well.

But other issues that we'll want to deal with the federal government about include the need to continue our efforts across the country in countering child pornography. There are new challenges with the Internet that affect the well -being of youth, and, as well, of course, we've got ongoing and serious issues when it comes to police funding and the availability of resources for officers on our streets and roads in Manitoba. So quite a good little list of issues, and I hope to sit down and establish a good relationship as I have always tried to cultivate with my federal counterparts. Mr.

Goertzen: I think the minister's suspense on the new Attorney General for Canada will probably end on Wednesday. Could he provide a copy of that – could he provide a copy of the letter after he's got somebody to address it to? Mr. Mackintosh: Absolutely. Mr. Goertzen: So at this point there hasn't been any specific discussion within the department about what

2758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 distribution would look like if and when–we're dealing with the when at this point –if marijuana becomes legalized, it's –his–initial feeling that going through the current government -run liquor branches would be the most likely distribution point? Mr.

Mackintosh: All I can say at this point, because it's really speculative and maybe isn't worth the discussion, but it had been commented by an official in Washingt on state, I believe, to the minister responsible for liquor control in Manitoba, that Manitoba and other jurisdictions with public distri - bution and retailing infrastructure was a much better position to actually get this right and do it safely. But, having said that, the federal government may have no interest in the provincial–either regulation or distribution of retailing of this product. So it really is premature. We want to see their plan.

How are they going to do this? I'm sure they have been doing policy work on this at the federal level. I read the–I think it's two paragraphs in their policy document and I've read it two or three times. And I was trying to tease out from every word in there what lurked in terms of what was coming our way, but there was very little in there other than, really, a commitment to a federal- provincial territorial process to work through these issues. Mr. Goertzen: Has the department undertaken any analysis or given any advice to the issue of assisted suicide?

I know that –I think the College of Physicians and Surgeons is undertaking a process where they're soliciting feedback on the issue. I think I saw some correspondence or advertising on that. Is the department itself, the Department of Justice, providing advice or –to other departments of government or done an analysis on the impact of assisted suicide in –with the result of the Supreme Court decision where the clock is ticking, and I imagine a decision would need to be made fairly soon. Mr.

Mackintosh : The timeline is short, and that's an area that we look forward to hearing from the federal government about and specifically whether they intend to keep that deadline. As I recall, I think it was a February timeline and–so that's one issue. The other, though, is the role of Manitoba Justice, and it has been partnering with Health. Officials have a working group and, as a result, you can see the involvement in the discussion paper of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba, and that's out right now for discussion.

So that really is the state of –I think the justices had a role in terms of legal advice, but I think the policy lead has rested with Manitoba Health. Mr. Goertzen: But the government of Manitoba, not specific to the Department of Justice, hasn't taken a position as it relates to that particular court case. I don't believe that there were interveners? Maybe there were in the court case, but there's no particular position by the government of Manitoba on the issue of assisted suicide or the result of the Supreme Court decision. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I think it's important to get the feedback.

The College of Physicians and Surgeons has put a draft position out there and I know there'll be a lot of feedback on all sides of their approach. I think the role of Manitoba Justice will, throughout the process, be one of ensuring that whatever unfolds it's within the four corners of the Supreme Court of Canada decision. Mr. Goertzen: Has the minister or any of his deputies or ADMs corresponded with any of t heir counterparts in other provinces or the previous Attorney General in terms of the court decision?

Has there been correspondence going back and forth on the issue following the Supreme Court decision last February? * (15:20) Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, my advisers have been in communications with officials across the country. I think it was what's called a CSO working group on this issue so that there's some co -ordination across the country. But I think what's most important to my answer is the reality of a federal consultation process and a panel that is doing work nationally on this one and that really is a –should be a key focus for ongoing interest. Mr.

Goertzen: Can the minister provide the correspondence that's gone back and forth between himself or the previous Attorney Generals since this issue has arisen and, also, staff in his department with other officials in the province and the federal government regarding this particular issue and the court decision? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, I'm advised that there m ay not be much, if any, written correspondence. It really is, I guess, just understanding where, sort of, everyone's at in the process. But I'll look to see, and

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2759 I'm not aware –I haven't been made aware of any communications at the political level but if th ere are I can provide them to the member. Mr. Goertzen: I'll move on to other topics not related to the federal government's –new federal government's policy or federal court decisions. Electronic monitoring in the province, we've–we go through this sort of every Estimates period, and I know that his well -briefed officials will have all of the numbers because they will expect these decisions or questions to come.

Can the minister provide an update in terms of how many current electronic monitoring units are active and in use in the province? Mr. Mackintosh : The information I have is as of September 21st, I think there's been some update which I can advise the member of. But first of all with regard to domestic violence, I understand that eight domestic vi olence offenders have EM as a condition of their sentences as of that date. I was told today it was 10 but we'll just double -check on that one. I have here too, as well, the auto theft EM

summary which it goes to September 21st. There were 108 potential cases reviewed for the project, 79 individuals were outfitted, 35 individuals tampered with or removed their devices and 60 instances, actually, where offenders tampered with or removed devices –talk about 35 individuals resulting in 60 instances, so obviously there were some repeat actions there. Eleven youths were re-arrested for auto theft and the devices were utilized to confirm their location in the offences. Other youths were arrested for break and enters with the device used to supply location information.

The department reports hundreds of instances where youth violating curfews where staff have regained compliance in over 50 instances where their sentence was suspended or charges were laid despite attempts to regain compliance. I will just add that when I came into the position I asked the department to begin an analysis with a view to expanding the EM program to sex offenders, particularly to pedophiles, and that analysis is ongoing and–with a view to making sure that when we do it it's based on some best practices and a good solid research base.

So that is a work in progress. [interjection] Yes, and I should add that a key piece of that is consultation with the partners when it comes to sex offending against children. I think, too, and I will –this is a file that's been around for a while in terms of the interest in this one and I've always been keen to see how this can go to work.

At the same time, we always have to recall that this is only one more tool, and I'm afraid that sometimes observer s may conclude that this is the answer to re -offending, when, in fact, all across North America, with the experience of EM over quite a number of years now, it's been, I think, definitively proven that this is only another tool that has to be accompanied b y other measures to ensure safety and compliance, as well, and, as well, treatment impacts. So it's just–it is another approach, and always what one has to guard against is electronic mon - itoring being a –providing some false sense of security.

And I think the lesson is best taught when one looks at the numbers of those young offenders who removed electronic monitoring from–in the auto theft program. So–but having said that, I continue to have an interest in expanding this as the additional tool and we'll make sure we proceed on a firm basis. Mr. Goertzen: Has the technology changed at all that the Province is using, not generally in the overall landscape, but that the Province is using since it undertook the initial pilot project several years ago? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, the department has been using the same system.

It was–it's been recognized as a good system, GPS. I think it was a system that we partnered with Nova Scotia to pursue, and so we continue to have that relationship. Mr. Goertzen: Does the mi nister know if any individuals who were engaged in the electronic monitoring program who had the ankle bracelet on them were charged with offences other than the tampering of the –obviously, if they were tampering with the device they would have been charge d–but those who had been charged with offences other than that while they were under electronic monitoring? * (15:30) Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, I'm advised that there was a myriad of charges that were laid aside from the tampering. And I'm –that–any time you e nhance monitoring, you're going to see enhanced charges laid for breaches and for other offences. I think I referenced there were some break and enters that were identified as a result of the use of the bracelets.

2760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 Mr. Goertzen: Can the minister or his staff provide a bit of a historical listing of those who are under electronic monitoring and charges that they face? I guess it could include the tampering charges but I'm more interested in charges they would have had outside of the tampering. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, we might try to two–to have a two-stage answer to that one. We'll determine how much is –has to be teased out manually and how much is readily available, and perhaps we can give the member what's readily available and then we could take it from there. Mr.

Goertzen: And I suppose I don't need it from the beginning of the program itself. Whether it's the last, maybe the last couple years, I don't want the staff to sort of spend an extraordinary amount of time on this, but even the last couple years would be fine. The experience with electronic monitoring, just in terms of how it's being used with domestic assaults, or of those who are under –who've been charged and convicted of domestic violence, is that in–something where it has to be specifically recommended by Crown prosecutors or is it open as a tool for the court to apply that?

How does one come under, specifically for domestic violence, come under the monitoring of electronic monitoring? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, EM must b e on orders. It must be on orders from the court. Mr. Goertzen: So it's totally to the discretion of the courts. If they –if a judge or a multitude of judges decide to use it more frequently and suggested that 50 people have it, I mean, are the resources available, or where's the bottleneck in terms of allowing it to happen or not happen? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, if there was judicial interest in moving ahead with the –or with electronic monitoring in cases where, for example, prosecutions or Corrections wasn't advocating for that one, we would certainly look to see how the –how that could be delivered. Mr. Goertzen: So it's a tool; it's an option that the judges have. They're aware of that; they can use that as a tool, and it–there's no constraint within Justice in terms of the resource. It's really driven by whether or not individual judges feel it's appropri ate for that offender; is that correct? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, Justice has tried to contain the model to a certain number of units, but if the courts wanted to expand beyond that, then we would attend to that one as a priority. But the –there has been a tri aging of cases, if you will, or analysis of cases to identify where, in the view of our –the professional assessment of the department, it would be most useful to have electronic monitoring added to a condition. That would be, for example, where there are individuals who are getting reinvolved and where this could make a difference in the view of our prosecutors or probation officers. Mr.

Goertzen: Has there been, in the time that it's been used under those with domestic violence charges–is there a sense t hat the offender is significantly different than those who use it for auto theft? Are they less likely to try to tamper, remove the device? I'm assuming the offender is different in terms of their nature, probably both, maybe, in age and other sort of characteristics, but is there a–less of a propensity to tamper with the devices for those on the domestic violence side? Mr.

Mackintosh: The best answer to that question would be by, you know, review of the practices and the literature across North America, pr obably. In Manitoba, though, I can advise that our experience has been one where offenders have for –on domestic violence charges have illegally removed their devices, just like some of the youth with regard to auto theft. We've had an offender that had a new domestic violence charge while on monitoring. So, clearly, if you just look at those examples there, I think the lesson that this is just another tool is obvious. Mr.

Goertzen: In terms, then, of –I agree with the minister that it's just a tool. I don't think anybody suggested that there was any magic bullet in terms of preventing reoffenders or that would've been used already. But, you know, there's a look at expansion towards sex offenders. Is there an analysis that that particular group of offender might be, then, less likely to tamper with the devices or are there may be difference devices that've been looked at for those individuals if there is an expansion into that kind of offender? Mr.

Mackintosh: The reason the department's been asked to do its work in an analysis on the appropriate use of electronic monitoring for sex offenders –or I should say, specifically, pedophiles, is to look at the additional–or what's the best bang for the buck, if you will, what population of sex offenders would best be suited to the addition of electronic monitoring. We know overall, generally,

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2761 sex offenders tend to be more compliant with the conditions, but that's only on a general level. There are individuals that I would like to see us focus on that could either b enefit–or public safety would benefit from the addition of electronic monitoring for those persons. Mr.

Goertzen: Is the feeling, then, that if it moves to being used with sex offenders that it would be those who've maybe done their entire sentence and thi s is– is a particular Criminal Code application where they're asking for additional monitoring even though they've completed their sentence? Is that, sort of, what the department is looking at, that it'll–won't be necessarily those who are on bail, but thos e who've completed their sentence and maybe haven't done programming? Is that what's been looked at? Mr.

Mackintosh : Yes, we envision that the EM application to sex offenders would follow the same approach as for auto thieves and domestic violence offenders, and that is it would be subject–it would be overseen by a sentence or it'd be tied to a sentence and a court order or a sentence and that anyone whose sentence is finished will, you know, there would not be an order available to manage whether with EM or any other intervention.

So–and I think that's been an ongoing issue, obviously, that amendments to the Criminal Code have attempted to deal with, but when it comes to monitoring, it'll all have to be tied to an order. Mr. Goertzen: I'm hoping that if I ask about accidental releases, it doesn't cause a shift in staff, but it may, it will. So I'll just proceed, I guess, with that shift. * (15:40) Can the minister indicate, from information from his staff, the number of accidental releases in the past 12 months? Mr.

Mackintosh : We had seven in '14 -15, which was down slightly from '13 -14, but I'm advised that to date in '15 -16, there have been no accidental releases. Mr. Goertzen: So, sorry, can the minister indicate when the last accidental release was t hat I guess under the '14-15 fiscal year? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, no. Staff just don't have the information here but we can expedite an inquiry for the member. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, I mean that would be helpful, just whatever they have for the fiscal year, I suppose, of '14-15.

The release, the institution or the location that they were accidentally released and the duration that they were released until being incarcerated, they could provide that information, which I think is sort of the standard ask that we've had in the past. Has there been any difference in terms of how accidental releases are reported or how they're classified? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, I'm advised that, by and large, this is a decision of law enforcement, of police, based on public safety and the need to get someone back into custody or have that person detained.

In other words, it's a public safety question that provides the answer. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, and maybe just for clarification, or maybe it's my clarification, I'm not referring specifically but when the police notify the public that there's been an accidental release, which I don't think has happened very often in the past. More from a departmental record ing perspective, is there some - thing that's changed or anything that's changed in terms of when they determine that there's been an accidental release for the purposes of recording an accidental release? Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, and I just noticed from my own notes as well that it's my understanding that the police are notified whenever one of these is identified, and then it's the police that do the analysis to determine whether there should be any public statement made. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, I don't think I'm ma ybe being clear. The–in the past when we've asked for a list of accidental releases from the department, we've received that generally through FIPPA but some - times through this process.

And they range anywhere from seven to 15 or perhaps more, but I don't believe that all of those were publically disclosed to the police. I think it was the discretion of the police about whether or not they would actually make a public notification. I guess all I'm asking is whether or not the –in terms of the internal re cording mechanism for the department, whether any criteria has changed in terms of what is an accidental release.

2762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I'm advised there's been no change. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister and his staff for that response. On the issue of prisons, will this require a shift of personnel? Okay, so we're just going to go through this, and there's been discussion out of Quebec regarding a federal court decision on pornography in prisons, and I think it was related specifically to television and the access that prisoners in Quebec had to pornographic channels or programming, and I believe the public safety minister there has made some proclamations about it.

But my understanding is that the most recent federal court decision mig ht be at odds with what the Quebec public safety minister is indicating in terms of not allowing pornography in prison, which I think the minister and his former minister and myself all –I think we're all in agreement with. But has there been a look at the federal court decision on pornography in prison in terms of what impact that might have in Manitoba? Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr.

Mackintosh : –I'm advised that our position continues in Manitoba, that pornography is not made available, and if it's identified it's dealt with and there's no decision elsewhere in Canada that will result in any shift in in our approach. Mr. Goertzen: The Quebec safety minister has indicated they're going to put in parental software monitoring to ensure that this is –is that essentially what happens in Manitoba? Is that the kind of software that exists in Manitoba or is there some- thing else that prevents–should prevent pornographic material from being viewed on the television? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, the member ma y be aware Quebec has very different, shall we say, standards when it comes to television and what channels can run. But here in Manitoba the jails limit the availability of certain channels. In other words, it's the channels that one would never expect pornography to be on that are available for inmates. Mr. Goertzen: And what safeguards are put in place in terms of Internet access? Is it the same type of safeguards that are put in place to ensure it's not access on the Internet or? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, there is not Internet access for inmates of our facilities. Mr.

Goertzen: Do the–in the past we've had, I think, a listing of entertainment. The one that was discussed was video games; there was some sort of enter - tainment available in the different co rrectional centres. Is that still the case? Can we get a listing of video game consoles that are available, the titles of the games that might be available to inmates either on a regular basis or on some sort of a performance basis? * (15:50) Mr.

Mackintosh: I'm advised that there are no–there is no gaming, as the member is talking about, in our facilities, with the exception of, in the women's correctional centre, there's the availability of Wii and I understand that's with a view to exercise regime. Mr. Goertzen: And I'm assuming that there's not – [interjection] Oh, sorry. Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr. Mackintosh: I have a list of the games, and it looks–yes, it's mostly workout. It's fitness.

There's – and in fact, it looks like the member may well have, if the Conservatives are the ones that have been doing the FIPPAing, but there's been a lot of FIPPAing in this regard, so I trust that the member may have a list of all of those. So The Price Is Right, I guess, isn't about fitness, but I t hink that's pretty innocuous. And there's some others there but I think the member will have a list of that. The Legend of Zelda is another one, of course. Mr. Goertzen: I mean, I won't say with certainty that it hasn't been members of our staff who've be en doing the FIPPAs.

I haven't seen them if it was, but it wouldn't be the first time something happened within our party that I haven't seen. So maybe he could just, sure, go through it. The list can't be that extensive and maybe just read into it. Mr.

Mackintosh : Dance Workout ; Rolling Stone: Drum King; The Price Is Right ; Mario Party 9 ; The Legend of Zelda ; Zumba II ; Gold's Gym Cardio Workout; Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?: Back to School edition; Michael Jackson: The Experience; My Fitness Coach; Madagascar Kartz; Just Dance 2, 3, 4, '14 and–like 2014- 2015–Donkey Kong Country Returns; Karaoke Joysound ; Mario Kart Wii play ; Mario brothers Wii ; Super Paper Mario ; Cardio Workout; Wii Sports ; Wii Fit Plus ; thinkSMART: Power Up Your Brain.

And that is as of September 15th, so–and I understand those were provided through FIPPAs several times but perhaps not.

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2763 Mr. Chairperson: Are you done? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes. Oh, sorry. Mr. Chairperson: Didn't know if you had more to add. Mr. Goertzen: And I'm assuming then that, because of the restriction on pornographic material, which support obviously, that there's limited access or no access to pay programming, combative sports, the sort of things that can be available through pay-per-view? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I'm advised the member's correct. Mr. Goertzen: So I want to shift to the issue of sheriffs in Manitoba. This is like a Wii workout; this is even better than there.

Mr. Chairperson: Did you have more to add to your–yes, honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). Mr. Goertzen: Can the minister just indicate how many sheriffs are employed in Manitoba, and if he could just maybe give a bit of a description of the range of work and services that they do within the justice system? Mr. Mackintosh : The estimate for salaries and benefits is 9.627, which is an increase over the earlier year of 51,000.

There are 105.7 FTEs, which is the same as '14 -15, and in terms of their duties, while there is a –while there are some civil respon - sibilities, for example, the service of garnishing orders, serving other court documents, including evictions, for example, could be family -related orders. So that's one area of work. The other area of work, of course, is court security. That's what they are most known for, been significant enhancements to that area over the last number of years, as I recall.

The other area, though, is the transportation of prisoners, whether it's to court appearances or back or–and there may be medical appointments, other required oversight of inmate transportation. Mr. Goertzen: The serving of court orders, does that sometimes involve sheriffs going out rural areas or secluded areas? Do they generally go in teams of two or do they sometimes serve those individually? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that the sheriffs are to travel in twos when there is a requirement to serve documents.

There may be instances where there are more than two, for example, where police would accompany an individual service visit depending on risk. Mr. G oertzen: And that risk assessment is done – who does the risk assessment? Who decides whether or not they will be accompanied by RCMP or perhaps other law enforcement? Mr. Mackintosh : I'm advised that the senior sheriff's officers do an analysis on a daily basis of the tasks that are set down for the day and if there is a risk that's identified then the appropriate measures are taken. That may involve calling in the police.

And then on the other hand, if the police identify a risk they can –they would advi se senior sheriff's officers so that the risk is managed. Mr. Goertzen: Are there any sheriffs who carry side arms, who carry guns? * (16:00) Mr. Mackintosh : I'm advised that our sheriff's officers are routinely equipped with defensive weaponry which would include pepper spray, batons and jackets.

The department also advises that they are–it's an ongoing task to re -evaluate the safety of sheriff's officers, and there has been some discussions about whether sheriff's officers should have different weap ons, and that is being evaluated and whether that would be advisable either in particular circumstances or more generally. So that is a work in progress, I understand. And, of course, in different parts of the country, sheriffs are deployed in different w ays.

I do recall that in Alberta, the sheriffs do have highway traffic responsibilities there, so that might result in a different risk analysis of their weaponry needs. Mr. Goertzen: I'm aware that –and maybe it's the terminology issue–I know that the sheriffs in Alberta are sort of a traffic unit, and I think a pretty robust one, not that I've met them personally in that way. But the–what's the view of the landscape of Canada generally? The sheriffs that perform similar tasks to the sheriffs in Manitoba, are they generally equipped with side arms? Mr.

Mackintosh: I'm advised that as a result of the ongoing analysis that in jurisdictions where the duties are the same as the duties in Manitoba, there are not side arms, but where there are other more extensive responsibilities, for example, traffic enforcement, there may be side arms. I think there

2764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 2, 2015 are three jurisdictions where, perhaps, there is that different job description. Mr. Goertzen: If there's a decision to move towards arming sheriffs either consi stently or just providing them access to weapons when they–to firearms when they need them, does that require a legislative change or is it simply a matter of giving them peace officer status? What's the mechanism for making that happen? Mr.

Mackintosh : I'm advised that, well, the outcome of the analysis is premature, but if there was an interest in making a change, it would require appointment as peace officers. In other words, it wouldn't require a legislative change; it would just require an appointment change. Mr. Goertzen: Is there a time frame in terms of when the department looks to report back to the minister for –as a –with a recommendation on this potential change? Or has the minister given the department any particular deadline or time frame for reporting back on that? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, I'd more –I'd fairly recently raised this with –and had this discussion with the department, so it would be my expectation that over the next few months at the outside we would have some completed review. I would also expect that there would be some consultation with those that are in the job and have differing views. There has been some communications to me, one or two, some interested in this area, and I rather likened it to the need to make sure that the –any analysis was done carefully as happened with the natural resource officers back in the day.

Of course, you can't compare; the two are entirely different. But we just want to make sure that we do our due diligence in answer to the inquiry by –I think it was just one or two people. I don't think it was some sort of a formal response for a review, but we thought it was useful to have that kind of review nonetheless given the developments in other places in Canada and make sure that the safety of our sheriff's officers is job one. I mean, nothing can get in the way of the safety of those who go out there for the greater good.

So that's the purpose, but the timeline, we haven't set a strict time–date on the receipt of it, but I'm advised that we could reasonably do that in the coming months. Mr. Goertzen: Was the decision to do the analysis – and I agree that–I mean, analysis is important. So I'm not in disagreement with the minister or the depart - ment on that. Was it –did it come out at the request from the union that represents the sheriffs? Mr. Mackintosh: There had been an email, I think, as I recall, or there had been some–a communication of some court that –some kind that came to my attention.

I can't honestly remember what the form it was. But I had an interest in the subject matter, and that's why I raised it with the department. But, again, the department does have an ongoing analysis of safety in any event, but I think that there was some responsiveness to that interest. It wasn't from the union. It wasn't fr om an organization. It wasn't from a large number of people. I think it was from one or two individual – [interjection]–sheriff's officers. Mr.

Goertzen: Does the department that –track of, and I suspect you do, incidences where sheriffs are put at risk or where they report that they've –there's been some sort of a –an incident or an altercation where they have had to use the weapons that they currently have? Is there tracking of that, how often that happens? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, I'm advised that the senior officials aren't aware of any incidents or any act of violence against sheriff officers in the recent past.

I should just add for the record, consultations will also have to take place with the union even though they may not have been part of any inquiry. And the union has been very diligent in working with the department, and in my earlier posting as well, to ensure safety of their membership. An Honourable Member: How many postings have you had? Two or three? Mr. Mackintosh: Three, well, a bunch of little ones. Mr. Goertzen: Terms of contraband within jails which–[interjection]–good, doesn't require a shift.

Can I just get an update on the number of incidents that have happened either within the contexts of the year or the fiscal year, however the department tracks it. Oh, it did require a shift. Thought I was okay. * (16:10) Mr. Mackintosh: I'm just wondering if the member could repeat his question, just as we've got the new staff here. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, of course. Just in terms of contraband incidents within the correctional system,

November 2, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2765 how many times contraband–I know that that's defined widely; it's not just drugs, but how many incidents there have been in 2015. Mr. Mackintosh: I have the numbers. I have –2012, we had 486 incidents; 2013, we had 431; and 2014, we had 418, which was a continual decline. I don't have the latest numbers here at this table, so we can make inquiries to get that and provide it to the member. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the member and–or the minister and his staff on that.

Does he have anything that reaches further back than that, or did the department track this in 2000, for example? Mr. Mackintosh: We'd have to go back and ask that question. I think I may have asked that and I think it would require–as I recall, I don't think that number was around. We'll look to see if it's easily acquirable or not and let the member know. Mr.

Goertzen: In terms of critical incidents that happened within the correctional centre, and I know that's also defined broadly but I think that's the term that's used, can you provide the update on the number of critical incidents that happened within the correctional centres? If he has the breakdown by institution, that would be great as well. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, we can look to see what we have in terms of any breakdown. Looks like there may have been a FIPPA request, and I don't know if the answer is there or not or if it's in the works.

We'll look to see; it may be that there has been a FIPPA put together that has that information. I'll let the member know. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, I mean, and regardless if there's a FIPPA –and I don't know, maybe it was our staff who did it, maybe it isn't. They're very independent staff, so that's good. But if –regardless, if we could just get the results of that, that'd be helpful. Questions–a few brief questions on the issue of cameras on police. Has the department examined that?

I mean, is it left completely to the Police Commission on that determination or has Justice itself done an analysis on the issue and whether they'd like to move towards having cameras on police officers? Mr. Mackintosh : We've–this really requires some discussion about where the demand or the interest in police-worn body cameras comes from, and it is in large part from what south of the border I've repeatedly heard referred to as a crisis in policing. And we're really talking about situations like at Ferguson where there has been a lack of confidence in policing and allegations of bias.

And, as a result, a lot of American jurisdictions and including some states have looked at police- worn body camer

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-4-75
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 4th hansardpdf 75.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	afa2245a1eec3595bcd31de4610312e9a576ce52

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