Manitoba Hansard — 5 July 1993 (Sitting 94A, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-94a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 94A - 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, JULY 5,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thirty-Fifth Le!glslature Members, Constituencies and Pol itical Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BAR: RETT, Becky CAFIST AIRS, Sharon CEFIILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DER:KAC H, Leonard, Hon. DEW AR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIE DGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHA RM E, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNIS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Ji m, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIND LAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GI LLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HIC�CES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAUIRENDEAU, Marcel MALO WAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McAIL PINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOS H, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALUS TER, Brian PENINER, Jack PLOI-IMAN, John PRA ZNIK , Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack REN DER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Con rad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STOI� IE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODIREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOW CHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONS TITUENCY Osborne Thompson Welli ngton River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste . l�ose SeinE!

River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-V irden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charl eswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Spri ngfield Wols,�ley St. Boniface Minn1�dosa Cresc:e ntwood Gimli Point Douglas lnkstE!r The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Eme rson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfie1ld Park Flin Fllon La Ve rer,c!;ye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rossrnere Rupertsland The Maples PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Li beral PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4972 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, July 5, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTIN G PETITIONS Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flo n): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Patricia Weese, Marilyn Randal l, Karen Crozier and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to co nsider making as a major priority the est ablishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northe rn Manitoba. Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Brian Johnson, Pam Berthel ette , Edna Hudson and others requesting the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the establis hment of a solvent abuse treatment faci lity in northern Manitoba. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Sel ki rk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ralph Flett, Angela Flett, Charlene Mason and othe rs requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider making as a major priority the est ablishm ent of a solvent abuse treatment facil ity in northern Manitoba. *** Mr.John Plohman (Dau phin): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Vern Tocher, Anne Peterson, Terri Rampton and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Or chard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Joyce Fraser, Cliffor d Morr is, Leah Link and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Or chard) consider restor ing the Children's Dental Pr ogram to the level it was prior to the 1993-1994 budget. Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Therese Vandale, Penny Auch, Dennis Auch and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Or chard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes ). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and c omplies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHER EAS there is a very ser ious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS accor ding to the RCM P over 100 crimes in Thompson alone in 1992 were linked to solvent abuse; and WHERE AS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in norther n Manitoba; and WH ERE AS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private memb er's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though ther e are no tre atment facilities in northern Manitoba; and WHER EAS for nine years, the 25 Ch iefs who c omprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okim akanak, supported by medical officials, police and the area Mem ber of Parl iamen t, have proposed a pilot treatm ent project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHERE AS successive federal Min isters of Health havo failed to respond to this issue with a c ommitment; and WHER EAS the Manitoba provincial governmen t has a respons ibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHEREFORE your petitioner s humbly pray that the Legisla tive Assem bly of Man itoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the estab lishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba.

4973 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 PRESENTING REPO RTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Commi ttees): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Thir d Repor t of the Comm ittee on Law Amendments. Mr. Clerk (Wil liam Remnant): Your Standing Com mittee on Law Amen dmen ts presents the following as its Third Report. Your comm ittee met on Tuesday, June 29, 1993, at 7 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred.

Your commi ttee has considered: Bill 14- The Personal Proper ty Secur ity and Consequent ial Amendments Act; Loi concernant les suretes relatives aux biens perso nnels et apportant des modificat ions correlatives a d'autres lois and has ag reed to repor t the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT subsect ion 24( 1) of the bill be amen ded (

a) in the part precedi ng clause (a), by striking out "or repossession" and su bstit uting •, repossession or seizure"; and (

b) in the part following clause (f) , by striking out "or repossession" and su bstituti ng ·, repossession or seizure". MOTION: THAT subsection 49(3) of the bill be amended by striking out "or the condomi nium plan". MOTION: THAT subsect ion 49(4) of the bill be amended by striking out "or cond ominium plan". Your committee has also considered: Bill 3'9- The Pr ovincial Court Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour provinciale and ha.s agreed to repor t the sam e wit hout amendment. All of which is respectfu lly submitted. Mrs. Dacq uay : I mo ve, seconded by the honou rable memb er for Sturgeon Cr eek (M r. McAlpine), that the report of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Se1rvlces) : I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, I have a state ment in regard to EMO weekend ope rations.

Heavy rains totalling over 210 millimetres or more than 8 inches in parts of the Por cup ine Provincial Forest and Duck Mountain Pr ovincial Park areas yesterday produced flash flooding and caused the evacuation of some communities. I declared a state of emer gency for those affe,cted areas at approximately 10:30 last night. Our primary concern was and is the lives of the residents. By declaring an emergency, we were abl·e to quickly brin g together all ne cessary resour ces from the pr ovincial gove rnmen t department to meet the immediate needs of the residents.

Provincial officials are presently working through the provincial emer gency co-ordination centr e that was established last night in Swan RiVElr. *

(1335) A:s a result of the flooding, residents who were at Deer Lake were moved to nearby Barrows, and In dian Birch and Minitonas residents went to Swan Rive•r. As of this morning, residents of the town of Min itonas are being allo wed to ret urn home. Manitoba Telephone System reports that limited telecom munications service has been restored to most of northern Manitoba. However, within the affected area, the com munities of Mafek ing, Minitonas, Bells ite, Barrows and Pelican Rapids are still without telephone service.

Co mmunities north of Porcup ine Forest along Highw ay 77 are also repor ting hydro problems. Manitoba Telephone System and Manitoba Hydro crews are using helicopters to try and restore and maintain services. Helicop ters and aircraft will also be used to fly over farms in the area and provide assistance if needed. Information on exact flooding details is difficult to pin down at this time because of the telecom munication problems and lack of access to flooded area:s. Natural Resou rces personnel in the area repo11 that major flooding problems appear to be presEmtly confined to roads and bridges.

Showers are cont inuing in the region, but there is no further word on additional communities evacuat ing. The

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4974 provincial air service is on standby to provide aircraft if any airlifts are necessary. Mr. Speaker, Highway 10 is closed between Bowsman and Highway 60 in between Ashville and Co wan. High way 20 is closed bet ween Camperville and Cowan , and Highway 83 is closed from Roblin to Swan River for all em ergency traffic. Several other smaller roads in the region are also flooding. At least seven bridges in the area have washed out, and due to these highway closures, anyone travelling to The Pas must use Highways 6 and 60 through the In terl ake .

Access through Saskatchewan is not possible. Deta i ls of damage to com munities are preli minary, and it will lik ely take several days before comple te assessments can be made . I would like to add, howeve r, that as soon as it is practical, I and some of my colleagues will tour the area to get a first-hand look at the situation. A general inquiry line has been established at the EMO command centre in Swan River. General public inquiries can be made by calling 734-9269, and I will repeat that. That is 734-9269. I would also at this time, Mr. Speaker, like to update the House on the Lynn Lake fire situation.

The com munity of Lynn Lake remains evacuated due to forest fi res. Essential personnel have returned to the comm unity to prepare for re-entry. However, a fire east of Lynn Lake is presently being watched, and exact re-entry time will depend on that fire' s status. Hydro has been restore d to the com munity. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Rosann Wo wchuk (Swan Ri ver) : Mr. Spea ker, I want to thank the Min ister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) for providing us with an update of this situation, which is indeed a very serious situation in the Swan River area.

It is unfor tuna te tha t there is such poor co mmunication and such uncer tainty amongst many of the com munities, particularly since there is no telephone service in many of the areas, and with a number of bridges washed out, there are many fa mil ies who are ver y concerned about their families and are unable to get any information into these areas.

I have to wonder whether cutback s in Gove rnment Services and in various departmen ts has had any impact, particularly in the area of communic ations and whether if there were those people who were in place- the other area being water resourc es- whether some of these com munication problems might not be there. There is going to be a tremendous impact on the area with the loss of bridges. The minister says seven bridges, and there are com munities that are completely isolated right now which causes a lot of problems, and there is going to be a tremendous burden on municipalities.

There is no way that the people in the area can afford the costs of what has been created by this downpour of rain. I guess I have to reflect on the time when we were looking very seriously at headwater storages in both the Porcupine and in the Duck Mountain, and it was this government that put an end to those headwater storages. Had we gone ahead with tho se, ther e may no t-this would have not addressed all the problems, but there would have been areas that would have been addressed if ome of those headwater storages would have been put in place, Mr. Speaker.

I wish that the government would reconsider, and when this is all over, re-evaluate whether or not those headwater storages should have been in place. I hope that they will put in all the necessary services so that the people who are affected by this high water, and, also, the people affected in the forest fire areas-that this government will really re-evaluate what their gove rnment cutbacks have done and what their cutbacks in services have done to people in rural and northern Manitoba. • (1 340) Mr. Paul Edwards (Lead er of the Seco nd Opposi tion): Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the minister responsi ble for the Emer gency Measur es Organization for his report today. We, of course, all in this House are extre mely concerned tha t these residents in thes e com munities be treated as effi ciently as possible and that the unfortu nate cir cums tances be minimized for them. Anything that we as, I think, members of this Legislature can do we should do to ensure that these naturally created problems do not cause any further dislocat ion for these people, or inconvenience, than possible. Mr. Speak er, we will look forward to further reports from the minister.

I am sure from time to time as this problem is solved, he will report. We look forward to that, and we want to assure him of our co-operation in this House from our party in

4975 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 ensuring that these individuals are given every opportunity that we can offer them to minimize the effects of this very serious problem. That goes both for the flooding as well as for the forest fires in Lynn Lake. I note that the min ister indi cates her e that showers are conti nuing in the region. I gue ss we can all hope that maybe that will end and make things 90 a little quicker in terms of getting these people 1 back to their homes. Thank you , Mr. SpeakEir. TABLING OF REPO RTS Hon. James McCrae (Min ister of Justice and Attornt�y General) : Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Depa rtment of Jus tice I am tabling today Supplementary Information tor Legislative Review of our 19 93 -94 Dep artmental Expe nditur e Estimates. Introduction of Guests Mr. Sp1�ake r: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atten tion of honourable mem bers to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today Mr. Sergio Aguilera, who is the Consul General of Mexico. On b•ehalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afterno on. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Children's Dental Health Program Cost Benefits Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposi tion): Mr.

Speaker, last week, some 45 staff were laid off by the pr c1vincial gove rnment, wo rki ng in the Children's Dental Progr am. This represents 90 percent of the former program for children in rural and northern Manitoba and rem ote com munities in Manitoba. Mr. Sp eake r, we have raised a number of questions before to the Minister of Health without receiving any answers, quite frankly, as to the rationale of this decision. The Premier (Mr.

Filmon) was copied on a letter, on May 8 of this year, saying that this will not in fact save money but in fact will cost some $22 million for an $1 1 -mil lion saving over three years . The government has a copy of that study from Dr. Cooney .. who is the president of the Canadian Society of Public Health Dentists. The Premier has a copy of that.

I would like to ask the Premier: Has he received a re•sponse from his own Minister of Health about the fact that people are saying it is going to cost more because kids, with parents, will have to be moved out of remo te com munities to see the dentist, as opposed to the de ntal health nurses and the dental hygien ists going into the com munity? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Healt h): Mr. Spe aker, that discussion has been subject to a number of discussions I have had with individuals curr<ently delivering the program.

We hope over the next perio d of time that in collab oration and co-operation with school divisions, with the Manitoba Dental Association and the Man itoba Dental Auxilia ries, they may well come to an equitable solution given the fact, Sir, that we have made the decision to elim inate the funding for the treatment portion of the program and maintain the preventative funding, the maintenance of good dental health funding throughout the province. Mr.

Speak er, I would expect that over the next number of weeks, the respective organizations might have an opportunity to craft a program much on the line of corr esp ondenc e I know my hon ou rable friend the Leader of the New Democrats has received, wherein a super intendent of a school divisio n has expressed interest in whether there can be ma intenance of a similarly deli vered program paid for by the parents of studEmts who are receiving that treatm ent service. Mr. l)oer: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Health did not answer the question about savings versus cost, the issue of remo te co mmunities, the cost of transferring people to the dentist as opposed to staff !:lOing to the communities. The minister has received a lette r, which I have receive d a copy of, from the Cree Nation tribal health centre where they talk about the ottloadin� oftloading, of course, which is also criticized by man�· school divisions across Manitoba as another offl oading onto the provincial school divisions.

It says in the letter: The provincial government, by cutting funding to our prog ram, will incur the expe nse of transporting non -Treaty people in Moose Lake, Easter ville, Pelican Rapids, Grand Rapids , In dian Birch long dis tance tor de ntal treatment. This expense will probably be greater

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4976 than the cuts to our program. It does not make any sense. The letter goes on to say that this does not make any sense from a cost perspective or a dentistry perspective for the people in these communities. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Almon): Has he received any assurance from his Minister of Health that these cuts, the savings of some $1 1 million in three years, will not in fact incur greater costs in other departme nts of government which will in fact be higher than the alleged savings that the go vernmen t is ma ki ng, also red ucin g dramatically the services to children in rural and remote communities, many of whom do not have the same kind of facilities for children for prevention as we have in some of the urban centres? * (1 345) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend has the same correspondenc e that I have received at the ministry, and we are working with those organizations to assure a smooth transition so they can continue to offer the educ ation, the prevention program . Now, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend makes the case that there will be a cost to individual parents.

We have never denied that fact, that in te rms of now having the treatm ent program disc onti nue d an d only the ver y im portant maintenance, education and prevention program sus tain ed, that parents whose chi ldren nee d treatm ent such as a cavity filled, it will now be at the parents' expense, the same as it is currently in Winnipeg, in Brandon and in other parts of the province that did not have complete access to the program that most of rural and northern Manitoba did. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier received correspondence in early May.

When I asked the question , the minister, who had received the same correspondence on June 9, had said that he had just received the information and he would look at it shortly. Well, he had received it four weeks earlier. Mr. Speaker, the ques tion is: Is it going to be more expensive with less quality of de ntal services to remote co mmunities and rural co mmunities? The program is cut. The head of the preventative services for dental services, Dr. Cooney, is saying he has calcula ted it will cost more. Groups in the co mmunities and remo te com munities are now saying it is going to cost more.

School divisions are saying you are offloading this program on us and we cannot do it anymore. Mr. Speaker, my ques tion to the Premier (Mr. Filmon): Has he received any emp irical evidence that this in fact will save mo ney for the gove rnment? Will it not cost more money to the gov ernment and provide much less quality of service for rem ote children and children in rural Manitoba who do not have fluoride treatments necessarily that we have in the city of Winnipeg? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend keeps talking about no savings in the program .

The taxpayers of Manitoba will not be expending $3 million on the treatment program that was formerly made available. That respons ibility, as is the case now in the city of Winnipeg, the city of Brandon, will now be assumed by parents whose children need those kinds of treatm ents. Now, Mr. Speaker, the taxpayers of Manitoba, whether they be the single parents tha t my honourable friends the New Demo crats advocate for more spending on, will not have to face the additional taxes necessary to maintain a $3-million program in treatm ent.

The same people that my honourable friend advocates for will not be asked to pay taxes to deliver this program only to rural and northern Manitoba. Mr. Speak er, the im portan t comp onent of trea tment, edu cation and prevention will be ma intaine d . The par e nts in each of those jurisdictions will now be respo nsible for maintaining treatment of active caries or other treatments that were formerly undertaken under the program. The preve ntion, educ ation, the fluoridation, the fluoride rinse will remain. * (1 350) Forest Fires Lynn Lake, Manitoba Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): First of all, Mr.

Speak er, I want to thank the minister responsible for the Emer genc y Measures Organization for his update with respect to, partic ularly in my case, the fire in Ain Flon. Mr. Speaker, the minister and his department acknowledged earlier this week that the firefighting effort in Lynn Lake is going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars on a daily basis. We also know that the Department of Natural Resources and the minister responsible decid ed, made a

4977 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN IT OBA July 5, 1993 conscious decision , not to action a fire which started on June 17 . Mr. Speaker, there are many in Lynn Lake and surrounding com munities who are particularly concerned that this go vernment, because of budget constraints, because of cutbacks in Natural Resources, are not acti oning fires that could be prevenl ted and which could be contained very easily.

My que stion to the Min ister of Natural Resourc es: Will he now review the departmental policy which prevented the actioning of this fire and which ultimately is going to cost the taxpayers in the province of Manitoba millions and millions of dollars? Hon. !Harry Enns (Min is ter of Na tural Resoun:es): Mr. Speaker, let me in the strongest possible, terms categorically deny the implication of the honourable member for Flin Flon.

The Dep artm ent of Natural Resou rces has never, I repeat, never been denied the necessary fiscal re!�ources to combat the forest fire situation or indeed the kind of situation that we will face now with flood situations in certain parts of the country. The decisions that were made with respect to that fire are the kinds of decisions made by very capable, professional firefighters. A judgment call was made, as we make many judgment calls. For the ben1efit of the honourable member, who really knows better, having represented a northern seat for many years, we do not action every fire.

There are many fires we do not action, and the former Minister of Natural Resources knows that. ThesEI are judgment calls made by profe ssional fir efighters. They are ma de with the best information at hand on the day. As in anything, it is easy to :second-guess with the benefit of hindsight, but I catego rica lly deny that there were any budgetary reasons for the actions that we took with respect to the fire that he refers to at Lynn Lake. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, people in the minister's departm ent predicted this a year ago. Mr.

Speaker, the question is: Why was the fire action not-g iven its proximity to a com munity, given its proxi mity to power li nes which ar e essential for the operation of the community, why was this decision made? Will the minister now acknowledge that it was made because of the policies of the govern ment, the cutback s in the De partment of Natural Resources, and it is now going to cost taxpayers five or 10 times as much because of the minister's dech;ion? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Speak er, for the better part, cert ainl y for all of the part of the '80s that this gentile man, the member for Flin Flon was part of the ad minis trat ion, the base fire budget, the fire department, was some $6 million. This govern ment raised that to $8 million. That is the base minimum pay, and that is in effect today, 20 or 30 pement more than what it was during the entir e time that he was in administration. In addition to that, of cou rse , the ex tra suppression fund comes in, which is drawn upon without any restric tions when faced with em ergency situations, as we faced, Mr.

Speaker, in '89 when we had the very terrific and horrendous fire situation throughout Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I refute absolutely the sugg estion and II suspect, and I am rather disappointed that a form1:1r minister of the Crown would make that kind of an accusation with respect to those people who are making their best judgmen t calls in different situations. It is very difficult to predict the action of a firEI when the countryside is dry and when you have 40- to 50-mi les-an-hour winds blowing up. They can alter the nature of a fire within a 12 - or 24-hour period. Mr. Stori e: Mr.

Speaker, for a minister who carried the hatchet for his department for the last three yeam, I am surprised at that defence. • (1 355) Forest Fires Impact of Reduced Workweek Mr. Jlerry Storie (FIIn Flon): My question is to the minis;ter of the Emer gency Measur es Organization.

Given the fact that com munity residents, relatives, friends, people who are concerned about the community of Lynn Lake, have not been able to get in touch with EMO officials, with departmen tal off icials, with the registration centres, because of the c:omplete lack of a commun ications network, will the minister responsible for EMO be now asking for an interdepartmen tal investigation as to what impact the days off- this is the first Friday that the civil 1;ervants were told to take the day off-what impact those reductions in service have had to the people of Lynn Lake and the people of Leaf Rapids

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4978 in terms of the disastrous fire that took place near Lynn Lake? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Services): Without accepting any of the mem ber's

preamble -too bad the member does not know what was going on up there, Mr. Speaker. EMO itse lf-if he wants to read ot her than newspapers or whatever he wants to read, our department up there has conduc ted a very good evacuation. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the people in the surroundin g areas for coming forward and volunteering their efforts to make these people as comfortable as possi ble. These people will be back very, very short ly. I expr essed in my ministerial sta tement today the reason for the partial delay. Does he want me to have those people come back to Lynn Lake before it is safe to do so?

North American Free Trade Agreement Government Position Mr. Paul Edwards (Lead er of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prem ier. Yeste rday, the Pr emier met with the Prime Minister. He indica ted, going into the meeting and in fact leaving the meeting, that trade issues were high on his agenda for discussion. Two years ago, the government released a very strong and clear position that unless six conditions were met they would no t su ppor t the North American Free Trade Agreement.

The minister at the time said the province would not support a North American Free Trade Agree ment unless all six conditions are met. If these conditions are not met, the agreement will be opposed. They are our bottom line. Mr. Speaker, clearly, at least three of those conditions have not been met in the agr eem en t recently ratified by the House of Commons. Did the First Min ister commu ni cate unequivocally this government's rejection of the No rth Ame rican Free Trade Agreement, as currently written, to the Prime Minister? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er) : Mr.

Speaker, if the Leader of the Liberal Party had listened to my comments, they were with respect to issues that will come up at the G-7 conference which is primarily the GATT round. In that respect, I urged the Prime Minister to make that her No. 1 priority because a resolution to the GATT round would help farmer s of Manitoba, in particular, and in western Canada to once again have a secure living for their efforts on the family farms of western Canada.

I mi ght say that in tha t respect, that rec ommen dation got the support of every First Minister around the table from the provinces and territories, and the Prime Mini ster agreed that it ought to be her No. 1 priority in her discussions with the G-7 nations in Tokyo. Mr. Edwar ds: This mi nister and in fac t all members of this House have repeatedly indicated the importance of the North American Free Trade negotiations and now the agreement.

This minister felt it was so important that he articulated a position and went on to say that if any agree ment fails to meet any one of these conditions, it is an agree ment we will oppose. Now, very recentl y, that agreement was ratified in the House of Commons, just weeks ago. This was an opportunity to express, if nothing else, that this gove rnment now rejects that agree ment. Is the First Minister saying he did not take the time and make the effort to communic ate to the Prime Minis ter of this countr y that he and this gove rnment and we in this Legislature reject that agreement as currently written? Mr.

Fllm on: Mr. Speaker, I have said publicly, even as recently as 1 0 days ago in Tucson at the Weste rn Gove rnors', that without the fulfillment of our six conditions, we are not supportive of NAFT A. In specific, I sp oke at some le ngth about President Clin ton's initiatives on the two sidebar agreeme nts on labour force standar ds and environment, that those are critical to our support of any agreement with respect to NAFTA, that as things stand, we do not support NAFTA without tho�e sidebar agreements and without addressing the rssues we have laid out in those six points. That remains the position we take.

It is a position that is com municated every time we talk about NA FTA to those in the federal govern ment, Mr. Speak er. * (1 400) Mr. Edwar ds: Mr. Speaker, obviously not every time, because the minister has yet to tell us he told the Prime Mini ste r that. It is interes ting he

4979 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 co mmunicates this to the western governors but not to our Prime Minister. Mr. Speaker, my ques tion for the Premier: Did he co mmunicate that very sentiment he has just com munic:ated in this House to the new Prime Minister, and if so, what was her response? If he has not communicated that clearly, will he? Will he table som1� letter where he has set it out to her? Will he com municate it to her immediately that this provinc e does not support that agree men t as currently written? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, the federal government, including the new Prime Min ister, is very much aware of our position on this issue. It has not changed. Forest Fires Firefighter Employment Polley Mr. Osca:r Lathlln (The Pas) : Mr. Speaker, my questions are directed to the Minister of Natural Resources. Northerners in this province have for a long time now some of the highest unemployment rates in the country. Nowhere is this more common than in communi ties like Moose Lake , Grand Rapids, Easter ville' and so on. Over 80 percent of those people, mostly aboriginal people living in those comm unities, are unemployed.

This is the same for most other northern aboriginal communities. My question is: Why did this gove rnment fly up people from southern Manitoba to go up north and figh t the forest fires? Hon. Hf 1rry Enns (Mi nis ter of Na tural Resources): Mr. Speaker, currently we have only the partic1e�lar fires in Lynn Lake and Barrington Lake that are a serious concern to the department. I am plea:sed to report that there is no other fire activity taking place in other parts of the province, includin g some of the southern parts of the province. We have, Mr.

Speaker, an acco mplished and dedicated group of what we call fire attack groups that are on full-time staff with the departmen t during the fire season, and they are em ployed where they can be most efficiently used. Now, some of them, no doubt-because tha t is the na ture of this department, we bring together our foresters wher e they are n�uired. I remind the honourable member for The Pas that fully 75 to 80 percent of the full-time fire attack firefighters are of aboriginal background, although some of them, as he points out, no doubt come from some of the southern reserves. Mr. Lathlln: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister provide the House with a breakout of the firefighters, what regions they came from in the pro vince, and what percentage of those firefighters come from the North and how many are aboriginal people? Mr _ En lll s: Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to do that. I would suggest that the appropriate time of doing that would be in the discussion of my Estima1tes that I hope we will come to shortly. Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Speaker, I knew the minister would not answer the question, but I decided to ask anywa}'· Firefighter Transportation Costs Mr.

Oscar Lathlln (The Pas) : My last question is: Can thE� minister then advise the House, by way of a repo11, how much government is spending on air fares shipping those people from southern Manitoba to go up north to fight the fires in the Lynn Lake and in the Wabowden area? Hon. Harry Enns (Minis ter of Natural Resou 1rces): Mr. Speaker, these are all appropria te ques tions to be asked during the conside1ration of the department's Estimates. I will have o11ficials with me at that time to answer those questions. Disaster Areas Emergency Medical Services Ms. Rosann Wow chuk (Swan Ri ver) : Mr.

SpeakEn, the minister indica ted in his state ment that the•re is a serious situation that has developed in the Swan River area because of the flooding. Many bridges have been washe d out. Many municipal roads are gone. The minister talked about some co mmun ities bein g evacuat ed. However, there are several communities that have no acc:ess and no telephone ser vice . I speak particularly about Pelican Rapids, Dawson Bay, Mafeking and those areas. There is no access. What steps is this government taking to be sure that there are emer gency me dical ser vic es providE�d in those areas?

Is anybody going into those communities to see that the proper services are provided, par ti cularly since there are no telephone services in those areas?

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4980 Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Services) : Mr. Speaker, I can say to the individual, yes, that is the job of EMO, for the care of the people in that particular area. I just had my briefing at 12 : 30, and I am inviting the memb er across the way to sit in on the director of EMO and he will also brief her on the different areas and the different things they are doing in those particular areas to make sure those people are looked afte r. Disaster Areas Bridge/High way Repairs Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Ri ve r): Mr.

Speak er, my next question is to the Minister of Highways. The No. 10 highway is a main road . Since several bridges have been taken out of that road and completely crippled the area, I want to ask the Minister of Highways if he is going to put in place emergency crews to help put those bridges and repair to the No. 1 0 highway in place as soon as possible so we can have access from that area. How soon can we see som e extra help in that area? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of High ways and Transporta tion): Mr.

Speak er, we ha ve ver y capable people working in the various departments and on ce the em ergency actu ally develo ped yesterday, our crews were all in place and have been working around the clock to try and assess what is happening. We are having meetings that are ongoing right at the present time to see exactly what course of acti on we can take to provide the immedi ate service to be able to get access into the area. Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the mem ber though that it is still raining out there and that the problem has not ceased at this stage of the game. It is still escalating.

We are tracking it, trying to find out. I think it is upwards of 12 structures that basically have been washed out. Further to the commen ts from the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) , we have hel icopters flying around checki ng out to see whether there are isolated spots where people have been isolated, where there are problems. We will continue to do that, and we will be updating the House as further action is required. Disaster Areas Bridge/Hi ghway Repairs Ms. Rosann Wo wc huk (Swan Ri ver): Mr. Speak er, I guess I will ask the Minister of Highways or the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach) the n: What ste ps will be take n to help municipali ties? Municipalities will not be able to afford the extra costs of repairing all of these roads that are damaged. Will there be emer gency funding put in place to help the munic ipaliti es? Will there be funding put in place to help those farmers who at the present time are having difficulty moving stock and thos e kinds of things? Wha t kinds of emergency services are put in place for that? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Services) : First of all, to the member across the way, the municipalities have declared different areas and that is why I as minister stepped in. There is funding available to those municipalities. During that process of assessment of the damages with all the departments, that will be taken into consideration, Mr. Speaker. No-Fault Auto Insurance Tillingh ast Report Tabling Request Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : Mr.

Speaker, as part of the exam in ation of the Ma nit oba Pu bli c Insurance Corporation's plans to move to a no-fault prog ram, the corporation asked the Tillingh ast company to review the existing data to see whether a modified form of tort would meet the same needs. That report was prepar ed for the corporation. We are now about to enter into a significant public debate on this question. I asked the House two weeks ago if the minister would table that report.

That question was taken as notice at the time with an assurance from the minister resp onsible for transportation that he felt that the minister would be prepar ed to table a document. I would like to ask the minister today if that document is forthcom ing. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minis ter charged with the ad minis trati on of The Man itoba Pub lic Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the re por t wa s prepared based on a number of assum pt ions.

I suppose that the question im me dia tely aris es , as is of ten the case in comparison between work that is done by actuarial people, as to whether or not you agree with the initial assumptions. Ce rtainly, the work that was

4981 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 done was done for the corporation to provide advice to the government, and I do not believe that there is information there that would be parti cularly useful to the debate. Mr. Alcock: That is a rathe r incredible state ment. It is not up to the minister to make that decision. There is: a public debate about to take place as this minister attempts to deprive people in this province of their benefits under the insurance program. I would like to ask him what he is afraid of. Get the information on the table. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, it is not a matter of being afraid of debating the issue. I would hope that perhaps we could begin that debate in this Chambm. If fellow members would be prepared to put their concerns on the table, I would be most anxious to debate those issues. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, a public corporation paid for this. I am prepared to debate this bill any ti m1� , as soon as the mini ster tables the information that he has based his decision on. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the member says he is pmpared to debate.

I hope that when the bill is called he will put his concerns on the table and I will respond to that debate. •

(1410) Home Care Program Impact Service Reduction Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan) : Mr. Speaker, the Mini ster of He alth is cutti ng off $3 milli on of homemaking services to the weakest and the most vulnerable in our society. He talks about how he will be increasing services in health care through provision of more nursing services and atte ndant services, but he does not tell us that is because he has closed hundreds and hundreds of beds and more of these services will be requi red in the co mmunity. Can the minister stop playing politics with this issue and tell us, Mr.

Speaker, how ma ny Manitobans are going to be cut off as a result of this $3-million cutoff to homemaking services, and how many hours are going to be lost by those Home Car e support workers who provide that servic e? Hon. Dcmald Orchard (Minis ter of Health) : Mr. Speaker, you know, I would appreciate it if my honourable friend would take some of his own advice and come clean with information on this because this is now about, oh, I do not know, maybe the fifteenth time in Question Period I have deal lt with this same issu e.

I deal t with it imm1:�diate ly after the budget and several times during the Estimates process. Nc1w, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend the New Dem ocrat, of course, does not want to acknowle dge that the policy we are carrying forward is the same one put in place in 1985 by Ho wa rd Pa wley and the NDP. That is not con venien t for the disin formation campaign the NDP want to try and run to get into government next time. But, Mr. Speake r, let me te ll my honourable friend how Home Care is changing.

Home Care is moving services away from the less intensive, i.e., housekeeping, i.e., simple meal prepara tion, i.e., laundry, as was started in 1985 by the Ne w Dem ,ocrats, and we are now able to provide more nursing ser vices, more Home Care assistant services, more Victorian Order of Nurses services. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend just how much more: 1992 over 1991, 7.2 per cen t increase in home care atte ndants, regi stered nursing up 15.5 percent, LPN up 20.7 pe rcent, Vict orian Order of Nur ses up by 4.7 percemt-an increase, not a decrease . Mr. C:::homla k: Mr.

Speaker, that is the fifteenth time the mini ster has refused to answer the question. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary: As part of this expanded service, can the minister advise whether the co-ordi nators of the Continuing Care Program will now authorize only limited services to clients, so that if a dressing is required to be changed twice a day, the nurse will only be required to do it once, and :fam ily memb ers will have to do it now the second time? Is th at par t of the conti nuing chan!�es of this so-called expanded service? Mr. C>rchard: Mr.

Speaker, again, the Continuing Care Prog ram. since its inception in the mid-70s, has been to be a service of provision where there is not fetmily able to undertake those services, where there is not supportive services in the co mmunity able to help that individual. Home Care has been since its inception a service of last resource after famil)l has been called upon. Now, Mr. Speaker, that has been consistent since Home Care came in in the mid-70s. It was consistent during the Howard Pawley years. That

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4982 is why we have incr eased nursing services by 20 percent, '92 over '91 , in terms of the LPN service, by 15 percent in registered nursing services, and this year, we expect to have further increases in nur sing ser vices to assist people living independently in their homes. APM Management Consultants Home Care Program Mr.

Dave Chomlak (KI Ido nan ) : My final supplemen tary for the minis ter who ha s now confirmed another cutback in Home Care: Can the minister advise this House whether or not his $3.9 mi llion plus $800,000 in ex penses, tax -free consultant whom he has hired- will he confirm to this House whether or not she will be dealing with Home Care which is one of the four or five projects, and whether or not these cutbacks are being made before he signs the final contract so he can do the same thing with Home Care that they did with St.

Bon iface-cut out the program or parts of the program , and then she will take credit for the cuts? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, if someone watching this Question Period was to listen to my honourable friend's pream ble, they might conclude, an outside observer might conclude tha t my honourable friend is quite dishonest in the way he presents his questions, but, Sir, of course, we cannot do that in the House. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, it is very clear, in fact Beauchesne has many citations, and under 489, the use of the word "dishon est" is most definitely unparliamentary. I would like to ask that you not only call him to order on that but also ask that for once he answer a question put forward by mem bers of our caucus about Home Care, and not resort to those kinds of unparliamen tary tactics instea d of answering the question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable memb er is quite correct. On the point of order raised, "dishonest," by the way, has been ruled unparliamentary, one, two, three-- An Honourable Member: And? Mr.

Speaker: I will tell you "and" how many other times in a minute. It has been ruled unparliamentary seven times, and it has been ruled parliamen tary once, so it is not ofte n members have an opportunity to get away with it. It is on both lists. Again, I will caution the memb ers to pick and choose your words very carefu lly for the fact that the viewing public is paying attention. *** Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, that is exactly the point I was trying to make, because my honourable frien d , in now repudiating the policies, the assessment that professionals have undertaken since the mid- '?Os in esta blishing home care services by following that policy set up originally by the NDP, re-enforced by our gove rnment in the late '70s, conti nued by the Pawley administration, with changes as I mentioned in 19 85, my honourable friend stands up on his hind legs and concludes that is another cutback. That is always what the program has done. Mr.

Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend that nursing services have increase d-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Child Protection Centre Surplus Restoration Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Bur rows) : Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Family Services rele ased his budget Estimates in March, I predicted that the first conseq uence of a 4 percent reduction to Child and Family Services agencies wou ld be that preventative programs would be cut. The latest example of this is the Child Protection Centre, where, when this government clawed back their surplus, they cut staff in the area of education and training on abuse.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services whe the r he is goin g to restore this funding, especially when he mee ts with their staff this week, or whether he believes that it is not necessary and he does not believe in prevention and, therefore, puts children at risk. Hon. Haro ld Glf leshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the me mber has forgotten over the weekend that I answered this question last Wednesday. I indicated that the surplus, which appears to be different than was first reported , will be positively addressed, and we will restore that money.

4983 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 Mr. Marti ndale: Could the Min ister of Family Services tell the House if he plans to restore all the accu mulated surplus that was clawed back and if then they will be able to rehire staff that have been laid off or hire new staff to repl ace them? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, in making very difficult budget decisions across govern ment and within this departm ent, there have been occasions when we are asking groups that receive funding from the �Jovernment, as part of their funding for the current y•9ar, to use up their surplus, a surplus in this case which has been in place there since 19 88. Mr. Mar1tl ndale: Mr. Speaker , I believe the mini ster is indicating that all of it will not be restored. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Mann ess) whether the decisions around the Child Protection Ce ntre are being made by Treasury Board or by the Minister of Family Services since the Family Support branch had an agreement with the Child Protection Centre as to how this surplus money would be spent. Who is making decisions around the Child Protection Centre? What is going to be the result? Are they going to restore these unfair decisions? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I indicated last week, that we place a tremendous value on the work that the Child Protection Centre does in the con tinuum of services between the agencies and the department.

The issue that was raised was an error over the amount of the surplus. We are now dete rmining that surplus was not at the level that it was first reported to us, and we have indicated that we will m:ake up that shortfall. Northern Manitoba Emergency Phone Service Mr. Stevo Ashton (Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, the last week members of the co mmunity in Thompson have been working very hard as hosts for the many dislocated people from Lynn Lake . I would like to certainly com mend everybody throughout northern Man itoba for pitching in at a very diffi cult time.

Some quE!Stions have arisen in terms of eme rgency preparedness, and there have also been some other impacts of the recent events. I would like to ask the minister responsible for EMO if he has reviewed the circumsta nces surrounding the cutoff of emergency phone service in many northern communities. Operator service, which is the equiv ale nt of 91 1 for northern com munities, has not been in place certainly since yesterday.

Can the minister indicate whether there are any backup plans in place to provide that kind of service in the co mmunities that as of this morning still did not have that emer gency phone servic•9? • (1 420) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Min ister of Government Servlc:e s): First of all. Mr. Speaker, these were unusual circumstances. The optics that go into area--the fibre optics were damaged. There was a tem porary system set up to accom modate that. I again, on behalf of the mem ber, thank the people of Thom pson. As the mem ber kn ows, each com muni ty develops its own eme rgenc y preparedness.

There is a contract between the governm ent and individual municipalities, and Thompson worked very well. However, as indicated, the people will be back in Lynn Lake sho rtly. Yes, we have looked at alternates in case of emergencies. There is an ongoi ng mobile study now for telec ommunications that has been going on for approximately three or four months. I am waiting for that report. When I receive that, then I will pass that on to the mem bers. We are always a little leery of this type of thing happe ning and the unusual circumstances. In this particular case, it did happe n. Mr. A!;hto n: Mr.

Speaker, MTS recently changed the switching system to move exchanges from swit ching in on oper ator ser vic e in northern communities to a province-wide system that results in operator service being provided from southern Manitoba. I would like to ask the Minister of Government Services whether this in any way, shape or form led to the circumstances whereby there was no, and I repeat, no eme rgency service, no operator service, the equ ivalent of 91 1 in northern com munities yesterday or today. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, all that northerners received in the way of an indication there was a problem , was a recorded me ssage from MTS saying that lines were busy when in fact those lines were not in place to operators. I would like to ask what the situation is, how that develcoped, Mr. Speaker, in northern Manitoba.

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4984 Mr. Ducharme: First of all, it was the fibre optic cable that wentdown, Mr. Speaker. It severed, and there was temporary service for those people in the area. As he knows, a tem porary service, you call in and you might get a busy or a no answer. I suggest to the people in the area, keep trying that number because of that temporary service, but there is a tem porary service in the area. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I tried 25 times last nigh t to get oper ator service, which is the emer gency service, and could not get through.

I would like to ask the minister again-and I repeat again to the minister that operator service in northern co mmunities is the equivalent of 91 1- why were there no contingency plans put in place to inform reside nts of northern com munities who might have faced an em ergency circumstance, of how to co mmun ic ate with those pro vid in g emer gency services, to provide a backup to the equivalent of 91 1 , Mr. Speaker? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, it is too bad the mem ber for Thompson did not think about that previous to 19 88. Rr st of all, we have a temp orary backup syste m. Mr.

Speaker, I just finished explaining to him that ther e is a study on telec ommu ni cati ons. [interjection] It is unusual the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) is questioning from his seat, who did no t show any concern at all or ask me any questions this morning in regard to his particular area. Mr. Speaker, there was a temp orary system set up. It was an unusual circumstance, and we have looked after that situation. Mr. Speaker: Time for Or al Qu est ions has expired. ORD ERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader) : Mr.

Spe ake r, I wonder if there is a willingness to waive private memb ers' hour? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private mem bers' hour? Is there leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied. House Business Mr. Manness: Mr. Spe ake r, I would lik e to announce a number of standing comm ittee times.

On House business, I would like to announce that the Stand ing Comm ittee on Economic Development will mee t at 9 a.m. tomorrow in Room 254 to consider Manitoba Mine ral Resources; that the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts will meet tomorrow at 9 a.m., Room 255, to consider Bill 16 ; that tom orrow at 7 p.m., the Standing Comm ittee on Pu bli c Utilities and Natural Resources will meet to consider the Annual Report of the Cr own Corporations Council. That is in Room 254.

Als o tom or row , at 7 p.m., the Stand ing Comm ittee on Economic Development will meet in Room 255 to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Development Corporation. Wednesday, July 7, at 7 p.m., in Room 254, the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet to consider the Annual Report of the Liquor Con trol Comm ission. Also that evening at that same time, in Room 255, the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts will meet to consider Bills 3 and 29. Thursday, 9 a.m .

Room 255, the Standing Comm ittee on Pu bli c Utilities and Natural Resources will meet to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporati on; and at nine, that same morning in Room 254, the Standing Com mittee on Public Accounts will meet to consider the Annual Repor t of the Publi c Accounts '91 -92, '92-93. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable gove rnment House leader for that information. Mr. Man ness: I move, seconded by the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCra e), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to her Majesty. Motion presented. MATTER OF GR IEVANCE Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood) : Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and I in the Lib eral caucus have attem pted to be su pportive of this governme nt's health care reform and, certainly, have atte mpted to provide constructive criticism where possible. My former colleag ue, the mem ber for Kildonan, Dr. Guizar Cheema, did a lot in endorsing this government on their reform initiatives. My other

4985 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 colleagures and I have done the same in an attempt to provide constructive critici sm. Mr. Speaker, the record of the Legislature will show some very positive commen ts, some praise, and support of not only the initiatives of the health care ref orm, but certainly of all of the principles of the reform as started by this government. Those princi plles ar e outlined in Quali ty Health for Manitobans, The Action Plan. I rise today, Mr. Speaker, because I can not in good conscience continue to listen to the Mini ster of Hea lth (Mr.

Orchard) atte mpt to justify his change in policy in the Home Care Program , and I canno t continue to listen to this Minister of Health not answer questions posed by the opposition and deal with the real issues respecting Home Care and the change in policy. I am not only concerned about this actual change in pol icy of homem akin g ser vices within the program , but I am also concerned because this change in policy, I believe, contra venes the spirit and intent of the health reform action plan as laid out by this government.

I am also concerned, because of the minister's apparent unwillingness to answer some of our questions throughout the Estimates process and in Ques tion Period, about the im pact of these changes: to the program, about any type of analysis of what these program changes will require and also his apparent willingness to not deal with the issues but, rather, to skirt around the issues and to sidetracl< them . Mr. Speaker, I rise on a grievance, and I wanted to begin to talk just very briefly about the history of the Home Care Prog ram.

Not to go into a lot of det ail, but suffice it to say, the Home Care Program here in Manitoba was considered to be one of the best home care programs across North America and throughout North America. In 19 i'2, it was referred to as Care Services. It was a c1entralized program in the city of Winnipeg and also throughout rural Manitoba.

In 19 75, that Care SEtrvices was moved into what was called com munity-based home care services and case co-ordinators, social workers, nurses moved into com mun ity-based offices wit hin the city of Winnip eg and throughout rural Manitoba, and at least in the city of Winnipeg funct ioned within a multidisciplinary team structure. * (1 430) The idea was to develop a cont inuum of services that could allow the aged and infirm and some younger disabled to remain in their homes, in their communities, by having some support services.

Now, I know the minister has men tioned in this Hous:e-and he is correct-says that home care is to bE1 seen as an alternat ive , as a last resort to assistance from family. That is true, Mr. Speaker. That has always been the case in the Home Care Prog ram, where we ask that family provide services and support to the aged and infirm, to the younger disabled and then Home Care, as a program, kicks in when that is no longer possible.

The approach to home care services is certainly seen over the last 1 0 years as a trend, where now we a.re providing services to more and more complic ated, more and more complex cases in the com munity, whether those complex cases be me dical ly frag ile children, wher e we are now providing services in the comm unity. Five years ago, 1 0 years ago, those children did not survive very long in hospital, so there was no need to provide a service. Now those medically fragile child1 ren are not only surviving longer, they are moving home from hospital and are able to be supp1:>rted in the community.

WE1 have also seen a trend toward more of the youn1�er disabled individuals, again, who are able to mc1ve out of institutions, not be in personal care hom1�s. and to live semi-in dependently in the community. We1 have also seen a trend, Mr. Speaker, of course, of people who are living longer. People now are wanting to spend longer in their homes. We inre starting to see fewer individuals who are wanting to move into personal care homes at a youn9er age, and we are seeing people who want to remain in their homes. They are able to do that with the supports of the Home Care Program .

In '1985-- and the minister certainly has indicated this hims elf time and time and time agai n-the Su ppor t Services to Seniors Pr ogram was a program that was devel oped by the form er admin istrat ion, by the New De mocratic govern men 1t. This was a service that was basically develloped by the gove rnment where a number of staff would work with com munity groups, and they would assist com munity groups in developing nonprofit support services in the com munity.

July 5, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4986 In fact, Mr. Speaker, it was really rural Manitoba who had a headstart or really moved ahead in that area in terms of developing a number of nonprofit ser vices, whether those ser vices be home maintenance services, yard cleaning, wheth er those ser vices be mea l programs such as congreg ate meal programs or whether thos e support services be friendly visiting and those types of social support services. Rural Manitoba developed a lot of those services.

The City of Winnipeg came on stream a little bit later, and they, as wel l, started to look at the various support services that could be developed throughout the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, the northwest part of the city of Winnip eg was the first to really look at Suppor t Services to Seniors. A group of people developed a northwest seniors council and decided to expand a number of services and programs for the elderly.

Some of those programs and services included cong regate meal progr ams, some transportation services, and the third program that was developed at that time, in 19 85-86, was a home maintenance, housecleaning, yard maintenance type of service for the elderly.

Now, at that same time, when those support services were developed -a nd the services in rural Manitoba, the same non profit services were well on their way-it was det ermin ed by the then administration, the NDP govern ment, and by the senior bureauc rats that there should be a careful review of all of the individuals who were currently on home care who basically received a minimum amount of service, and that minimum amount of ser vice was basically defi ned as receiving homemaking services every other week or once a week or once a month. There was a careful review and analysis of all of those particular cases.

At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we also saw a move of the senior management of the Department of Health to encourage, to support and to ensure that the case co-ordina tors who were spending time in the community working with the elderly were doing a good job of assessing people as to whether they were actually eligib le for the Home Care Program, even for the homemaking service.

So there was actually quite a bit of review done, and it was felt in a number of situations that individuals who wer e re ceiving homema king services in fact could receive that service through family, through relatives, and they were taken off the Home Care Program. So that process was in place in 19 85 or '86.

At the same time, with the advent in the north part of the city of the Support Services to Seniors, there was a deli berate move-and I do not use that word "deli berate" negat ively, but ther e was a deli berate move to look at that home maintenance progr am, and for those individuals who were on home care and did not have family, did not have su ppor ts, that we wou ld suggest to those individuals that they receive the services of this non profit Suppor t Ser vices progr am, which basically prov ided yard maintenance, house cleaning, some meal prepara tion, some assistance in laundry, et cetera.

So that began in 19 86. The minister has cert ainly talked about that in his com men ts in Esti mates and in response to questions in the House, and what he says is very correct. What we have seen occur, however, in 19 93, is another shift in policy direction on the part of this gove rnment, and I think to some extent the minister recognizes this, although I am not sure he is really prepared to come out and say exactly that there has been a change.

The minister likes to say, well, it is the same; we are still providing services for complex care, and where people only need a homemaking service, we are referring them to the Support Services to Seniors. Well, that is correct to some extent, Mr. Speaker, but what has happened is now, actually throughout the city of Winnipeg and certainly in rural Manitoba, the minister has indicated that he wants to correct an inconsistency and the unfairness that curren tly exis ts in that syste m.

The unfairness and inconsistency the minister points out, and he is correct in this inconsistency, is that individuals in three of the four quadrants, for example, of the city of Winnipeg, were receiving homema king services through the Home Care Prog ram,

whereas people in the north part of the city were not receiving that service. They were, in fact, being told they were not eligible for home care and that they should avail them selves of the non profit homemaking service through the Support Services to Seniors Program. So the minister is correct that there was an inconsistency. Now, the minister's response and the change or shift in policy that the minister has looked at is to take away that inconsistency. He is sugge sting

4987 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OIF MANITOBA July 5, 19 93 that those individuals in the other three quadrants of the city and in areas in rural Manitoba, as well, should no longer be eligible or receive the home making SEtrvices through the Home Care Progr am, but that they should avail themselves of some other alternatiVE! service. Now, Mr.

Speaker , when we asked the minister what typet of services, he again talks in glowing words about the Support Ser vices to Sen iors Prog ram which he says has devel oped mor e programs • over the last year, and in answer to ques tions in the House about has there been an increase in the budget, he very nicely skirts the answer to• that que stion by saying, well, we have more programs in Support Services to Seniors, which is true. But when we ask the minis ter a very direct question 1in the Estimates process and we say well, for Etxample, I represent Crescen twood-Fort Rouge.

I have other colleagues who represent other pants of the city that are in the south area. What services do we tell these people are now available ·for them? In fact, in talking to intake staff with the Department of Health, we have asked those staff the same questions as to what services are ava ilab le, an d they do not have a comprehetnsive list because those services have not yet been developed.

So one thinks, well, perhap s these people can ava il them selves of the Suppor t Services to Seniors programs in the north part of the city, but when WE• talk to the Gwen Secter re tiremen t pr ogram which now has �aken over home maintenance services in the north part of the city, they say that if there was an increase in referrals to their program, particularly from people who are outside the geographical area of the northern part of the city, they would not be able to handle those requests.

So what we are left with is, in fact, the indication that there is no Support Se rv ices to Seni ors throughout the city of Winnipeg, so these people who are now going to be reassessed and are told they will no longer be eligible for home care will not have alternatives to draw on with the exception of private , f•or-profit cleaning services. Now the one difficulty with those services is that we are going to have individuals, people who are requiring those ser vices, of every income level of the en tire spectrum of incomes who will be having to avail themselves of those kinds of services. * (1 440) (Mr.

Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) So we are going to have some individuals, some elderly in particular, who do not have the support of family or friends who, because they are on a fixed incomEt, cannot afford those services, who will in fact potentially deterior ate in their homes because they are not able to keep themselves safe in their homes which has always been the basis behind any ty pe of home su ppor t ser vice. They will probably utilize hospitals more , and there is a chancEl that they will be institutionalized sooner.

That is the concern about this shift in policy in the Home Care Progr am, Mr. Acting Speaker. My concern and the concern of the Liberal caucus in regard to this is when you look at the shift in policy, it app11ars to contravene every principle that is outline•d in Quality Health for Manitobans, The Action Plan, and that is the concern of our caucus. If th11 Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) were able or was prepared to stand up either in Question Per iod or when we asked these questions in Estimates and explain ex actly what the shift in policy means, tell us what analysis he has done or his department has done in regard to the impact -[interjection] Well, the Minister of Health is talking from his seat and says, read Hansard. I have read Hansard. I sat through the Estimates. We still were not able to get direct answers to some of our questic>ns from this minister. Mr.

Acting Speaker, when we look at The First Founda tion : Developing a Broad Government Focus . on "He althy Public Policy," one of the statements is and I quote: • ... every major action and policy of government will be eva luated in terms of its implications for the health of Manitobans." An Etxcellent statement, a statement we support, Mr. Acting Speaker. We asked the Minis ter of Health ques tions about what analysis was done as to the impact of this shift in policy, because perhaps it is a good shift. We do not know that, because there has not been an analysis.

He either has the answe•rs and refuses to tell us, or he has not done analysis on this. He •oftentimes talks about what other provinces are doing, and I begin to wonder if in fact this government is not governing by associat ion. It seems to be that what goes on in other provinces is a good enough reason to de cide on what should be done here in Manitoba.

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4988 We also have asked the minister ques tions on the Home Care equipm ent pr ogram and the changes in that policy. I specifically asked the Minister of Health in Estimates, had there been any type of analysis done on the impact of the changes in the Home Care equipmen t policy and, again, the answer was no. The minister is sitting from his seat telling the member for Cres centwood that in fact ali i am doing is playing politics. Well , that is not true because grievances are very serious. It is very important -[interjection] Mr.

Acting Speaker, I would be quite pleased for the minister to stand up once I am finished and correct the record. Let us know what analysis has been don e-[interjection] Well, the minister tells us to read Hansard, and I will respond to this one comment. I have read Hansard twice. I read through all of the Estimates, and I have yet to find answers to some of our questions, and, in fact, what is important her e is that individuals her e in Manitoba know that they have a home care system and program they can rely on.

The First Foundation of this Healthy Public Policy in regard to looking at evaluation and analysis has not been done in the case of this shift in home care policy. The Second Foundation, the second principle in this action plan talks about Partnerships for Health. Aga in, this is a very famous principle that the minister likes to espouse time and time again. Aga in, we would ask, who has the min iste r consulted in regard to this shift in policy in the Home Care Progr am? Perhaps he has consulted the bureau crats in the de partment.

Occupational therapists, non profit organizations such as Support Ser vices to Sen iors and the Gwen Se cte r retirement program, a number of these programs, again, in discussions with them, wonder about the direction and the impact of this particular sh ift in policy in the Home Care Program. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) I would ask the Minister of He alth-he had a perfect opportunity to review the changes in the north part of the city of Winnipeg as they started to remo ve people from the Home Care Program and refer them to the nonp rofit services in the north part of the city.

He could have reviewed that to see what positives and negatives there were from that policy progr am. He has not done that, but what he has now said is, okay, everyone in the city of Winnip eg and throughout the province will no longer receive the homem aking servi ces. They will be referred to other services and programs.

Then he says, that is because the Support Services to Seni ors Program has been so successfu l, yet when we asked the minister to indicate which of those services are now available in three-quarters of the city of Winnipeg, he either refuses to name them or he cannot, because in fact they do not exis t, Mr. Speaker. The Thir d Fou ndation of the action plan is Building and Managing a Full Continuum of Health Services for Manitobans. Again, the minister and his government espouse the fact that community support programs are very, very important.

Again, they talk about that, but have they actually used that principle as they have shifted the home care policy? Mr. Speaker, I would like to quote on page 15 of The Action Plan where it says: "Put another way - if, by providing home care servi ces, we can reduce the length of time a person has to stay in an acute care hospital by a single day, we save enough to pay for several week s of home care.

The potential return s from inve stmen ts in lower co st and com muni ty- orie nted ser vices are hug e and experience elsewhere sugges ts that these services also contribute to improved health outcomes." That is probably true, Mr. Speaker. Again, the minister, in Estimates and in Question Period, talks about the increases in the home care services and he talks about increases with LPN services, R.N. services and home care attendant services. That is all true, but in fact what he negl ects to tell us is that there has been a decrease in the number of home support worker ser vices.

So the question remains, what is going to be the impact of removing those people from home care who are receiving a less intensive, lesser service from home care? Again, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) could show us some analysis, either from this province or other provinces or even in North America, to sugges t that p eople can still be maintained in their community and their home without having those services, at least we would have some information to look at and to reconsider our concerns about the shift in the home care policy, but we have not seen any analysis or information from this minister.

4989 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 In the health care refo rm, Mr. Speaker, the conclusion is the basic management dilemma. They indicate that cost savings, they are never really �1aved. They basically talk about how when you move towards community-based services you oftentimes do not save dollars. That is very true. Agai n, I question what is the actual reason behind this continued shift of policy in the Home Care Program. Is it really the saving of $3 million, and will those dollars be saved in the long term?

The minister indicates in his reform that it is very important that all sectors work together. There is a defin ite• need to manage the changes in health care. It was certainly very interesti ng, Mr. Speaker, in talking about par tnership and working co operatively -and management, when we talked with the• Support Services to Seniors, some of the programs that were in existence, they seemed to be unaware of the changes and the shifts in this home care policy. Again, they are wondering what is the impact going to be on their service in the nor th end. Will people in Fort Rou ge and St.

James and East Kildonan and Transcona be able to acce:ss those non profit support services in the north part of Winnipeg? Mr. Speaker, in

summary, I want to basically state that we are aware that there is a Support Services to Senio rs Program . We are aware that in the north part of the city people were not brought onto horne care because they were referred to that nonpr ofit cleaning service. We are aware that the intent of the gove rnment has been to increase the number of support services in the community.

If we have those services and resources available, then people do not necessarily need to be on the Home Care Progr am. * (1 450) The di'Hiculty with what the gove rnment has done in this case is that they have not ensured that the resources and the non profit services are already in place in most of the communities. That is where the policy with this government has failed , Mr. Speaker. I am concerned not only because of this policy shift but because of the fact we have been unable to get from this Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) any indication of what analy sis has been done about this impact and what the potential will be. Also, I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, about the political double speak that this minister does sometimt�s in Estimates but more so in Question Period, when in fact we ask him about the impact of this reduction in services he does not have an answer. When we ask him about the home support wor1kers and in fact would staff be losing their jobs, whe•n we asked that in Estimates, he said no. Then we lind out that staff had received letters later on to say that in fact their hours might be reduced.

We recognize the fact, Mr. Speaker, that he is saying that the $3 million is going to be moving in to provide care and service in the more intense cases. Yes , it is important that we provide that complicated and complex care, but the question remains, what about the low-end service? What about the homemak ing serv ices ? If in fact ther e are no non profit services available, will those elderly, will those individuals be able to remain in their own homes or will they end up on the doorsteps of the emer gency wards or end up in personal care homes? I would like to conclude, Mr.

Speaker, by indic ating that I hope that the minister would reconsider his program and his shift in the policy or, if not, he would at le ast indicate to this House, allow in dividuals in the opposition to feel mo re comfortable with the policy shift if he could table som e analysis, give us some inform ation to indicate that in fact people will not fall through the crad;s and that there will not be a negative impact on the shift in this policy direc tion.

That is what we would ask on behalf of Manitobans, on behalf of in dividuals who have used the Home Care Program in the past, on behalf of families who have elder.ly and people who are younger disabled who utiliZE! the Home Care Program . We• would ask the minister to do that and to not spend his time talking in the House about political doub lespeak and about all these wo nder fu l programs and services, but if he could really get to the ht�art of the issue and really deal with the policy shift and talk about the impacts. I would ask that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) do that, Mr. Speal<e r.

An Hionourable Member: You are dis honest, Avis, and you are smiling about it. Ms. Giray: The Minister of He alth is sitting from his seat s;aying that I am dishonest. There is not one thing that I have said in the last 20 to 25 minutes that is• dishonest. I also know that the Minister of Health knows that, he recognizes that.

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4990 So I would ask that the Min ister of Hea lth recons ider his policy, loo k at the impa ct of elimi nating these homema king services without having the resou rces and the other services and programs in place in the community. I would ask tha t the minister do that.

I would ask that his colleagues in government who are listening to this and who are probably getting very many calls from individuals in their com munity also talk to the Minister of Health, ask him about his policy, ask him about the reasons behind the shift in the policy direction and perhaps we could get a change in this policy and ensure that the Home Care Program in Manitoba continues to remain one of the best in North America. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. *** Mr. Speaker: On the question of the honourable government House leader, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed? Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr ant ed to Her Ma je sty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs, and the Civil Service Comm ission ; and the honourable mem ber for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Housing. * (1 500) COMMITTEE OF SUPPL Y (Concurrent Sections) NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr.

Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): When this

section of the Commi ttee of Supply last me t on Monday ev ening, June 28, 19 93 , this comm ittee agreed to pass all line items relating to the De partm ent of No rthern Affairs with the exception of the Minister's Salary. The committee agreed to ask ques tions of the de partm en tal matters under this item, and allow the minister's staff to be present at the table dur ing this discussion. The comm ittee will now come to order. This afte rnoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will res ume consideration of the Estim ates of Nor ther n Affa irs. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been considering 1. (

a) on page 12 6 of the Estimates book. Ho n. James Do wney (Mi nis ter of Nor thern Affai rs): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, at the beginning of the Estim ates today, I want, fir st of all, to acknow ledge the work of the Northern Affairs and Native Affairs staff and all individuals within the department over the last few days who have been working in northern Manitoba as it relates to the forest fire activities in Lynn Lake, and as well the difficulties that have been encountered with the amounts of rainfall and the em ergency me asures activities that have been put in place over the last few hours-to acknowledge the work which they are doing on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

They go above and beyond the call of duty in situations like this, and I want to recognize them for that. I want to as well say that, Mr. Dep uty Chair person, the reason that I have my dep uty minister here and no other staff is that most senior st aff are, in fact, in volved in our no rthern communities assisting with the com munities in their time of difficulties with the amounts of rainfall they are getti ng, and so that is why I am here today with just my deputy minister and other staff are not available. So I would appreciate the mem bers of the opposition understanding the situation.

I am sure that they do, bei ng the very honou rable mem bers that they are, and that is all I have to say at this time. Mr. Oscar La thlln (T he Pa s): Mr. Dep uty Chairp erson, at the outset, I want to say I do not quite understand the rema rks he made right at the beginning. However, I will ask some clarification afte rwards. Secondly, I want to thank the comm ittee and the min ister for having decided to put off the Department of Northern Affairs so that I could be here. I think the minister understands well enough why I was not able to be here last Tuesday.

I was involved with some constituency work in The Pas, and the reason I could not come down Monday night was that I was bound and determined this year to make it to the MBCI grad up in The Pas, because last year we were caught up in the same kind of sched uling problems. Because I had missed it last year, I did not want to miss it this year, so it was for that reason that I told our people that I was not going to make it. Whether the Estimates

4991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 19 93 proces1s was going to go ahead or not, I was not going to make it. Thirdly, I guess, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would also likE� to go on record as acknowledging the work of government officials and staff for the work that is currentl'y being carried out as a result of the forest fires that have been going on up north and now as a result of having received too much rain. You know, two weeks ago we were all praying for a lot of moislture and cool weather. I did not do the rain dance. I could do a sun dance--no, I am just being silly there .

Yes, ·two weeks ago, we were hoping that there would be a lot of moisture in the northern area becausE� of the situation of the fires and so for that reason I also would like to acknowledge the hard work of the officials and staff in trying to remedy the situation and put operations back to order and so on. I was telling our people this afte rnoon, I went to my mai lbox and I am not getting any phone messag��s. and so I tried phoning The Pas and I cannot �Jet through. The operator says their lines are tied up, so obviously the problems are still there and hopefu lly they will be rectified as soon as possible.

I would like to have some clarifica tion, however, on the auree ment that was reached last week as to how the l:=stimates are going to be carried out as far as North�rn Affairs is concerned. Mr. DepiUty Chairperson: What we have agreed to do as of last week, the committee decided we would pstSs all the lines within the Department of Northern Affairs, except for the Minister's Salary. We would allow you to ask any questions through out the dE�partment on any line at that level and the mi nis ter's staff would be present during the questioning during the Minister's Salary.

That was basically the one option that was given to us. Does that claritv it for the member? Mr. Lathlln: Am I to understand that I can ask questions of the minister on anything? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Anything within the department. Mr. Lathll ln: Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. Nell Gaudr y (St. Bonif ace) : Mr. Deput y Chairperson, I would also like to acknowledge the fact that I was not here last week to be part of the-1 was not golfing, not down where I was. The minister might note that this time I have not ask4�d for his resignation, so we might pass his salary.

No, I would lik e to acknowledge his opening remar ks in regard to what is happening in the North righ t now, and I think we all have concerns here, all mem bers of the Legislature and acknowledge what the staff is doing. I feel very comfortable at any time when I write the minister and he has responded to my letters.

I feel that the staff have done the work there, and as I say, it is-1 canno t say any thin g nasty about the mini ster because I praised him when I first started. • (1 5·10 ) w�� will keep the com men ts short because the fact that we are down to 30 hours in the Estimates, and there are quite a few other departments that we would like to go through . We will ques tion the minister today in regard to concerns that we have. With these, I would like to conclude and say thank you to the staff and to the min ister for his co-operation in the last session. Thank you. Mr. [leputy Chairpers on: I thank the member for St.

Bon iface (Mr. Gaudr

y) for those opening remarks. Does the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) have any ques tions? Mr. Lathl ln: Mr. Deputy Chair person, I would like to start off by asking the minister to perhaps give us an update as to where the Northern Economic Development Comm ission is at. I know there have been benchmark reports that have been done and distributed and so forth. I am now inter ested in findin!� out from the minister as to exactly where we are at in terms of the commission, its progress, and what we might be expecting in the imme diate future.

I remember in probably two Estimates processes ago that I made the remark that this comm ission was taking far too long in getting off the ground. I also made the remark at that time about the 18 months, I believe, 18 months to 24 months, the time frame that was given to the commission. First of all, the· timing was off, in my estimation, because it was going to take approximately 18 months; I forget how many months now that the comm ission has been doing its work, but I know it is less than 18 months.

Then the report would be finished, and then at that time I said that by then we would probably be heading into another election and what would happen afte r the election and so forth.

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4992 Really my question at that time was the timing of the launching of the actual work of the commission, and so that is why today I am quite inter ested in knowing exactly where the commission is at, also knowing that I did receive two reports from the minister. As I said, one is a benchmark, sort of a report, a snapsh ot picture of what was there in northern Man itoba at the time, and then the other report that came out not all that long ago. Mr. Downey : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I do not cover quite enough area, then I want the memb er to tell me.

He may find in some of the Hansard of last week, I covered a little bit of the Northern Affairs with the Native Affairs portion of it, so there may be further explana tion in that part, but I will try to deal with it as precisely as possible because I do have the Energy and Mines Estim ates co min g up following these in the House after we are finished. So I will try and cover the points as briefly as possible, but yet get the adequate information on the record. The comm ission has com pleted its work.

It has reported to me with its final report, and it is now being asse ssed by the go vern men t and the government departments , and I would exp ect that a public co mmunication of the document will take place later on this summer. As far as the timing is concerned, we estimated at the outset it would take approximately 18 months. I believe that is in fact what has happened. We look forward to publicly discussing the recom men dations and actions that may be taken as it flows from the Northern Affairs report.

Let me say as well that I think that there never has been in the history of Man itoba suc h an extensive grassroots input as there has been on the Northern Economic Development Comm ission report. It has been total community involvement, and I am extre mely pleased with the community input that has been part of the developmen t of this document. Mr. Lathlln: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister then if the final report has been finis hed and it is now within the department being assessed by offi cials and staff and so on-and I realize that the minister is committing himself to publicize the report later on this summer. Perhaps he could though share some of the more major recom men dations that would be contained in the report.

I know the last report that came out, not that I was surprised, but I recognize that there were certain themes already emer ging from the last report, and even from the first report, even though the first report was merely a s napshot picture of what was there. I myself, having lived in The Pas all my life, started to recognize that there were certain themes or certain ideas , major items, that were not coming out, and I am just wondering if the minister would be willing to elab orate on some of those emer ging themes that I recognize as coming from the report, the two reports. Mr. Downey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, let me be brief. I do not think there will be any surprises for the member. He is pretty much aware of a lot of the ambitions and the desires of the grass roots people of the North. I have not at this point had an in- detail review of it yet. It has just been a first glance. I think it is about a week ago that I received the document, and it is my intention to fully disclose and to discuss it publicly later on this summer. I would ask for the patience of the member now that we are almost one week into July.

It will be upon us before we know it, and at that time he will have a f ull package of information as it rela tes to the report. Mr. Lathlln: I ask the minister then, Mr. Deputy Chairper son, whet her such item s as northern heritage fund, northern post-se condary educ ation ce ntre , mor e enhan ced women' s progra ms, particu larly as they relate to aboriginal women, are included in the report. Could he recollec t seeing those kinds of items as standing out in the report, for example? Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the member is trying to draw me out as to what is in the repor t.

Alth oug h I am anxious to get the information out, I think it should be done as we had initially planned, and that the time in which we make the information public, the commis sioners will be, as well, available to make comment as it relates to their report. After all, it is not a government rep ort; it is a co mmission rep ort that was commis sioned by this gove rnment. I think it would be more appropriate to have the comm issioners available to speak to it at that time.

I think the memb er will find it most interesti ng, the recomme ndations that come forward, and hope to be able to entice him to support the activities of northern Manitoba. Mr. Lathlln : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I recollec t exactly those words of the Minister of Justice (Mr.

4993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 McCra e1) when he was responding to my queries in the House in regard to AJ I. I believe his words were: The member of the Pas will be pleasantly surprisEtd when he gets to read the report of the AJI. Yes, I was pleasantly surprised, I might say, except 1that I was not prepared for the subsequent lack of action on the part of govern ment in terms of implem1 mting the very important reco mme ndations that we,re put fort h by the two commissioners, Jus tice Hamilton and Judge Sinclair.

Now the minister is saying the same thing to me: The member will be surprised and inte rested in what tht� report will have to say. You know, which is why I have been asking the minister throughout the term of the commission's work, interes ted in finding out what sorts of major items were emerging from th�� work of the commissioner s so that we could start discussing, perhaps, some of the more important ones, the bigger ones, the major items as I refer to them. However ,I still would like to get a feeling from the minister as to, are there three or four main items?

He knows full well, for when he used to visit my community when I was a chief there, we used to talk about it ems such as a northern university set ting .. I re member him atte nding an MKO conference at one time in Thompson , and the northern university setting was one of the items being di1;cussed by our assembly at the time. * (1 520) I also remember every now and then talking to ministers in regard to a northern university setting. I remember talking to government minsters about hydro prc::�jects , about treaty land entitlement.

I also remem b,er talking to ministers about justice issues, particularly the Minister of Northern Affairs when ever he would visit The Pas, also whenever I would run into him at meeting s where I was at in my capacity as chief at the time. Perhaps, then, would he like to elabo rate just a little bit more as to any major initiatives that we might expect as a result of the commission's work? Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, I know my colleagw� is a very patient man, and I want to, as well, acknowledge the days that he was chief of The Pas Band, and we had what I consider a very positive working relation ship.

In fact, ther e were certain areas where I thought we were pretty much philosophically on the same track. Talking about surprises-and I do not think I used the word surprised in my earlier comments. I thought he said he would be pleased, interested and !Pleased, but talk about surprised, I was the one that was shocked and surprised when the member decided to run for the New Dem ocratic Party for the Man: itoba Legislatu re. That is when the real shock and :surprise came about.

I s•ay that in a nonvicious way because I know that in this country, everybody has the choice to attac:h themselves philosophically to the party they feel is the most advantageous to them and to their thoughts, but I say ge nuinely, the memb er is a patient man. He did do a good job as chief of his comm uni ty. We did have some excellent discussions.

I lo ok forward to ha ving those excellent discussions in the future, sometime this summer which, by the way, summer is going on very quickly-that we will be releasing that report which we will be able to fully discuss both privately and publicly, and he will be able to make his commen ts at that time.

But until that time, I think it is in fairness to the comm issioners who were part of it, whose agendas are 11 ow set, as well as mine, to ha ve our department go over and discuss with different depa1rtments that are going to be impacted what we are doing and what we may be able to do as it relate1s to the report, and that will take place later this summer. Mr. 'Gaudr y : Mr. De put y Chai rpers on, my question is in regard to Pelican Harbour resort in Mani!�ota gan. I wrote to the minister some time ago atnd you did reply. I was wondering what has developed since then. Mr. l>o wney: Mr.

Dep uty Ch air per son, I am advis,:�d that it is in proce ss. There is an ongoing process that is dealing with that matter. It has not been comple ted at this particular time, but it is still being dealt with. Mr. G;audry: Can we be updated, not necessarily today here, but can we get an update, both critics, in regard to this situation at Pelican Harbour? Mr. Downey: Yes, I am advised that my deputy is prepared to give an update to them. Mr. Gaudry: Another concern that they had was a new sewage treatment plant in Manigotagan which the com munity was opposing.

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4994 Mr. Downey: It is my understanding that that issue has been resolved, and I will, as well, get an update for the member so that he is fully informed on that matter. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if there have been any questi ons-if there have been, I will look through Hansard at that point-i n regard to the Northern Flood Agreement. Have there been any questions asked last week? If no t, can we have an upda te of wha t is happening? Mr. Downey: Yes, Mr.

Deput y Chair person, I dealt, to some degree, with the Northern Flood in my opening commen ts which are in Hansard and which I can ma ke av ailable to the second opposition party, but I do not mind putting it on the record . I think there has been progress. What I am encou raged by is that we have resolved, to a large extent, the Split Lake portion of the agreement, that we have signed a Memo randum of Understanding with Nelson Hous e . We have signed a Memorandum of Understanding with York Landing, and it is my hope that we are able to do the same thing with both Cross Lake and Norway House. It takes time.

The co mmunities have to feel comfortable that they are acc omplishing what losses they have incurred and that they are, in fact, com forta ble that, in resolving thr ough a comprehe nsive way, the people who will follow them are going to be treated fairly as to the terms and conditions of the agreement which was signed. I can appreciate the time that it has taken. I guess I con tinue to negotiate with the hope that some day we will be able to ha ve all of the outstanding agreements resolved. As well, I want to acknowledge-and I think the member for The Pas (Mr.

Lathlin) would want me to do this-that this gove rnmen t was the fi rst government to ac kno wledge that there was, if not a legal obligation, a moral obligation to pay compe nsation to the commu nities of Chema wawin, Cormorant, Moose Lake, Easterville, I believe The Pas even was part of it, and Grand Rapids. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province directed that Hydro should, in fact, look at not only the legal side of it, but the moral side. I am pre tty proud to be a memb er of a government and a cabinet that were able to resolve what could not be resolved by the fo rmer administrations of this province.

I would hope the member -and I know he is an honour able, upstanding citizen in his community- that he will, when he is in those com munities, remind the citizens that it was Premier Gary Filmon and this gove rnment that are currently here, that heard those communities when they came forward asking for some form of comp ensation as it related to the past activities of Manitoba Hydro. I know that he will do that when he is travelling throughout those com munities, and I would thank him in advance for that. Mr. Gaudry: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, now my other ques tion is in regar d to the Cam perville comm unity where they ha d discus sed incorporation. The minister did reply to my letter. I was wondering, what is the status on this issue at the present time? Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, let me express how concerned we are about the difficulties, in the short term , of people living in Camperville and through the Pine Creek area and all those com munities that are devastated with excess rain water and the flooding conditions.

Not only are the staff working ha rd, but it is our objective to make sure that we do not have loss of life or limb, that we do what we can to facil itate them during these devasta ting times and hope that we can do what is necessary to make sure that their lives are as least disrupted as possible during this tough time. * (1 530) I am really encou raged when I talk to people from Cam perville and that area. I see it as a co mmunity that has some pretty good potential opportunity in an economic way. They are det ermined to get some business activities going. They certainly have touris m oppor tunities.

They have small business development opportunities, and I think they are properly located for it to be a gr owth community within that region. As it relates specifically to the incorporation, they are extr emely interested in in corporating and bec oming more of an entity to themselves as far as decision making is concerned. We are supportive of it from a government level, and we will conti nue to me et with them and help them through the process, so that hopefu lly they can acc omplish their goals of being self-a dmin istrative through incorporation and receive that kind of status.

4995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 Mr. Gaudry: Yes, I appreciate the minister saying that he is supportive of their initiative, but in the letter from the mi nister he men tions that Camperville was experiencing difficulty in two main areas ,of planning for inc orpora tion : bala nced budget s for operating and capital expenditures; second ly, monitoring and auditing reports that meet auditin�1 standards. What has the dep artment done to help the Camp e1rville town in regard to these two issues? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Deputy Chair person, we have staff of the Department of Northern Affairs working closely with the community of Cam perville to try to resolve those outstanding issues. Mr. Gaudry: I know you mentioned also before that you were supportive. But what are you doing in regard to giving support and in regar d to these two issues that I have just mentioned? Mr. Do,vney: It is a matter of trying to upgrade the staff and work with the adminis trators of the com munity to mak e sure tha t they have the allocation of adequate funds to do the job that they have to do. The other thing is, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, is to give sorne assurance that if, on incorporation, that they would not automatically lose some of the traditional supports that they receive from the pro vinc e. So it is a ma tte r of tim e. Let us remember that it was about 22 years ago now that The Northern Affairs Act was brought forward. If I understand, talking to some of the pioneers in the activities that took place, it was the intention of gove rnment and the com munities of that time that before long they would become incor porated , self-suf ficient and self -di rec ted thr oug h an incorporated style of com munity.

So that has been a long time getting there, but I think we will see progress in the near future. Again, the specific s that the member is talking to, we are working with staff to try and resolve the m, and I do not see any reason, if one works hard enough, why they can not be resolved . Mr. Ga1.11dry: You men tioned that you want to see tha t th,e�y have adequ ate funds to do their incorporation. Has the government given them any funds in regar d to helping them out in incorporation? Mr. Dovmey: We have allocated staff time; as far as additional funds, no.

What we have said , though-and that has been the concern from Day One 1 when people talk ed about in corporating -w' ould they lose the kind of gove rnment su pport programs they currently are enjoying? We have said to them at the initial stages that they would not, that we would work with them to provide some supp ort in the initial stages as they had been getting under The Northern Affairs Act, that they would not be left on their own without traditional support. There is a matter of making sure all the legal work is done, and I can tell you that there is a matter of insurance and some costs .

Let us face it, I think that we are going to have to give a little in cer tain areas when it comes to getti ng these com munities on their own. Again, I think it is a matter of people talking about self-det ermi nation and forms of self-go vernment. This is a form of self-gove rnment that I am trying to encourage. Mr. Lathl ln: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, the other thing1 that I wanted to ask ques tions of the minister is in the area of-recently, there has been staf fing action that has taken place at the ADM lev el, particularly as it relates to the position of Ms.

Kustra -1 beli eve her name is Brenda Kustra -the position that she formerly occupied. I want to see if I can get some information from the minister as to how the staff ing activities at that level are carried out by his department. Mr. Downey: Mr. De puty Chairper son , the member may not be aware, but at the ADM and the deputy minister's level, the hiring is taken place by Orde r-in-Cou ncil. That is the approval mechanism. What we have done is to fill that position that Brenda had , and Brenda has moved on to the director-general with the federal gove rnment of the department of northern and native affairs.

Let me say at the outset that the individual that was chosen in the person of Loretta Clarke is no stra nger to northern Ma ni toba. She is very qualified. She is a lifetime resident of northern Manitoba. She has worked very successfu lly as the general manager of Commun ities Economic Development Fund. So it is not a new revelation that she is working for another department of gover nmen t. She has been put in place in an actin!� position for this particular time, in charge of Northern Development and Co-ordination Division of the1 Department of Northern Affairs.

It il� not, as some in his party would portray it, a politic:al hiring. That is not the case at all. She has never been elected to the Manitoba Legislature, as

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4996 I referred to some of his colleagues when they made an approach, or making accusations, as to the fact that it was political, and that it did not have concurrence of the civil service.

I just want to re mind him that the party which he now sits with hired two well-k nowns, not people who were not involved in politics: one Terry Sargeant, who is a former NDP member of the House of Commons, that was hir ed within the depar tmen t without competition; as well, Phil Eyler, who was the NDP me mber of the Leg isla ture for one of the city ridings, an NDP member of the government that was defeated, again hired within the civil service without competition. So I do not need to get into a political debate, but anytime the member wants to or his party wants to I am quite prepared to do so.

But the individual is hired based on competence, based on experience; quite frankly, I am quite pleased to see her in that position. I would antici pate-a nd I say this at the outset, I wanted an individual like Loretta Cla rke in an ADM position when the Northern Economic Comm ission repor t is tab le d- that the recom me ndations that are there will be able to be assessed by her and the departm ent.

I think that with her back ground, both sitting as a ma nager of the Com munities Economic Development Fund, having been involved in many organizations, the Norman Regional Development corporati on, and having a good understanding of the North, she will do a very good job. On the salary side, she is at the same classification as Brenda Kustra was, and I think the salary range is from $70 ,000 to $80,000. I think she is in the $75,000 range, exactly the same place as where Brenda Kustra would have been. Mr. Lathl ln: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister is right.

I particularly do not like going into this type of questioning during Estimates, because it gets very partis an, it gets very political, and I think my role here as a Northern Affairs critic is to ask ques tions of the minister. At the outset of this meeting, I was advised, and I was very grateful for being given the opportunity, to stay with the line that deals with the Minister's Salary and therefore giving me quite an open line of questioning.

For that, I am appreciative, but I find it sometimes diffi cult to sit here asking questions, and the minister starts off by saying : The me mber is honourable; he is a fine mem ber of his community; the memb er is very patient and all of those things; I do not want to get political. Then he goes on to do exactly that. Mr. Deputy Chair person, that is frustrating for me, and here I am as the critic that is supposed to be here on behalf of our party trying to do my job, asking a question as to the type of staff ing activity that is carried out at the ADM level. That is all I wanted to know.

I did not want the minister to go on and on and say the party that he represents, this is what they used to do. I am not interested in that. I am interes ted in what is happening today, sir. That is all I am interested in. * (1 540) Now, let me be like the minister then. Let me make it perfectly clear to the minister that, although I do not have any quarrels as to the qualifications of one Lo retta Cl ar ke from Thom pson , who, I understand, has taken the position of Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs working out of Thompson, I think.

What I find difficult, and that is the reason that I ask the question, is that, although she was not el ected to a position in the Legislature, she was, however, a defeated candidate in the last election. She ran for the Conservatives in the last elec tion and, unfortunately for the minister, could not unseat our member for Thompson. That is the reason why I am asking the que stion. How is that staffing activity carried out at that level? The Depar tm en t of No rthern Af fairs is responsible for carrying out gove rnment activities in an area of Manitoba that is quite vast an area.

Also, the area that the Department of Northern Affairs works in has a population that is primarily aboriginal people. The other question that I was going to ask was: Did you have any potential candidates that were of aboriginal descent that could have maybe filled the position just as ably as one Ms. Clarke, or was the recruitment process based strictly on-1 know he says, I want somebody that is going to implement the recom me ndations of the Econ omic Develop men t Comm ission, but you know when you look at the whole thing, you cannot help but wonder on what basis the appointment was made.

I ask the minister, did you consider hiring or looking at the potential of any aboriginal people in the North to serve in that capacity? If so, what was the difference in the qualifications? I know we have a lot of aboriginal people from the North who

4997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1993 are just as capable, that could have served in that de partment that services prim arily abor iginal co mmunities. Mr. Dc1wney: Mr. Deputy Cha irp ers on, the honourable member, I know, does not want to get into this kind of de bate and discussion. I will accomm odate him, and we will move on to another portion of it afte r I answer this, if he would so desire. First of all, let me indi cate to him that it is an Or der-in-Council em ploymen t activity. I have indicated that there will be an open com petition for the job. She is in place in an acting position.

The member is well aware that she has been working for the Com munities Economic Development Fund and has done an excellent job in that capacity and has worked very well with the native community and northern community. I want to, as well, remind the member that the qualifications were the first thing that we were looking at and will look for. As it relates to native em ployment within the Department of Northern and Native Affairs, some 30 perc :ent of our workforce is of abor iginal backgro,und-30 percent in the department.

In fact, in Native Affairs, it is higher than that, but of the total Department of Northern and Native Affairs, we havet a workforce of approximately 30 percent aboriginal background. That is on the record from the other night as well. We aliso have 56 percent of our workforce as female. Of course, hiring Loretta in that position certainl}' helps to give more senior management positiont� to females in our workforce, which , I think, is extre mely important, and indi cates that we consider the qualifications and the individuals like that for those jobs.

Again, I do ap precia te the memb er com ing forward and asking questions in this area. If it were not for a. little political debate back and forth, then the public may question what side either of us is on. I think it is help ful to keep that line of distinction drawn b<atween us. So I thank the member for his questions. Mr. Lathlln: There are just a few other ques tions that I was going to ask, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, butone-- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. Down ey: I do not wan t to mi slead the com mittEie, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I did make a mistake . It is 29 percent aboriginal, not 30.

It was 29 percent, and I apologize to the comm ittee. My trusty staff here brought forward the actual number. Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I said earli•ar, there are just only a few ques tions I wanted to as:k on the other sections, but I would like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) a genetral question, one that I have been pondering. It is not a political question. It is a question that I have been pondering for quite a while now as I try to understand how the gove rnmen t system works.

As the minister knows, every once in a while, in response to my ques tions in the House, he will start off by saying that perhaps the member does not understand, and it is probably true. I admit that I do not understand a whole lot of other things. Maybe he does; I do not. There are certain systems in go VEHnment tha t I do not ha ve comp lete understanding of, and I am not ashamed to admit that. But, with the Ministry of Northern Affairs, I have always looked at that ministry as being one of the key ministries.

Although it is a small ministry, I have always looked at it as being a key ministry because it has to do with northern Manitoba. A lot of times I am wonder ing, in caucus or in cabinet meetings, just exactly what role the minister plays in terms of what I would say, as the minister is spE�aking on behalf of his department, and really, esse ntia lly, speaking on behalf of northern Man iltoba. I think of areas like the roads, and I have asked ques tions in the House and have written le tters to the Min ister of Highway s and Trans portat ion (Mr. Dried ger).

I have asked ques tions of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and so on, Education , concerns that affect my constituency. I guess this is as good a time as any to ask the minister exactly what role he plays in cabinet in term s of ful filling his duties as the Min ister responsible for Northern Affa irs. Maybe this is whem I am naive ; I do not have that experience that he has and most gove rnment members. But, when I think of a Minis ter of Northern Affairs, I sort of parallel this with when I was a chief.

I was chief of my band, but I was also chairperson of the Swampy Creel' Tribal Council, so whenever I was at national meetings, of course , my first commitment was to my hc>me reserve, but I also had the responsibility

July 5, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4998 of speaking on behalf of our tribal counc il, and then on top of that I had the responsibili ty of speaking for MKO. If I was the only Mani toba chief atte nding a national meeting, I had the responsibility, along with the provincial chief, speaking on behalf of Manitoba chiefs. I sometimes wonder if that is going too far in my trying to figure out, understand the min ister's role as the Minis ter of Nor thern Affairs.

When it comes to program cuts, services, does he not say, hey, that will affect my department and I will not have that? • (1 550) An Honourable Member: Does he stand for the people? Mr. Lathlln: Yes, in other words, is that his role? Mr. Do wne y : A fair que stion , Mr. Deput y Chairperson, and let me at the outset say to my honourable friend and represe ntative from northern Manitoba that answering the ques tion, which I do, is in no way trying to dimin ish or demean the me mber or might reference to the fact that he should know. I think he is legitima tely asking this question as to how the process works.

I may, by example, try to poi

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-94a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 94a.pdf
Language	en
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