Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 33 15 Ma y 1 986

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! 000 MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I will take just a short moment, Mr. Speaker. This is an issue of some great concern. As the House will know, there is a forest fire raging in Windsor and at least twenty houses are. threatened. I have just been informed that my own home has been evacuated, my family has been moved out.

I have no doubt about that, and I would like to have the minister's assurance that the fire-fighting capabilities of the Department of Forest Resources and Lands Water Bomber Fleet, or whatever, is engaged to make sure, in this emergency situation, that the well-being of the people and their property is protected. I notice the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) is not present.

Maybe some other minister could assure the House that the resources of the Emergency Measures Organization is available to the people in that area to help with evacuation and to help guarantee the safety of people involved in that very serious situation in Windsor. MR. SIMMS: Kr. Speaker, to that point of order. Ll925 May 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Forest - Resources and Lands, to that point of order. MR. SIMMS: Those questions would be very appropriate during Question Period, I guess.

I have a Ministerial Statement that I am about to make, and I advised the bon. member's colleague, the Forestry critic, a half an hour ago by phone that I was going to do so. But, if I may, the point of order, which is not a point of order, I would like to address in a Ministerial Statement, .Mr. Speaker, and then perhaps ~here can be questions if somebody wants to ask questions. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Oppo-sition. MR. BARRY: I was informed by the member for Stephenville (Mr. K.

Aylward) that a Ministerial Statement was on its way. I was not aware that it was anything relating to the specific Windsor - Buchans situation. I do not think there is - is there? In that statement there are certain steps that the minister is taking. He was kind enough to mention to me that he has seen that special measures are being undertaken to deal with a serious fire on Bell Island and I would like to ask the minister if he could, in the course of his statement, refer to that as well? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): There is no point of order. The No. 33 R1925

bon. the Leader of the Opposition took the opportunity of stating his point of view. Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. SOME HOB. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, it is really unfortunate, first of all, that I have to announce that because of the extreme forest fire hazard in the Province, a total ban on campfires or any other kind of open outdoor fires will be necessary on the Island portion of the Province and, in particular, in the Goose Bay area of Labrador until further notice.

This ban is effective inunediately and includes the cancellation of all permits to burn issued by my department which would not normally be cancelled until the forest fire regulations come into effect, which I think is midnight, May 18. The decision to place a ban on outdoor fires was based on a very careful amount of consideration of the present state of the forest, the potential danger to the public in some areas of the Province, the approaching long holiday weekend, and a weather forecast which calls for sunny, warm and dry conditions for the next few days. While I realize, Mr.

Speaker, that the tradition of boiling up over a campfire, especially at this time of the year, is regarded as a fairly enjoyable activity, the dry L1926 May 15, 1986 Vol XL condition of seriousness really leave to place a fires. the forest and the of the situation me with no choice but ban on all outdoor Mr. Speaker, several . major fires are already underway that are keeping fire crews busy and our equipment in use. We are assessing the situation with respect to the suggestions made by the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) with respect to EMO and so on.

We are also considering the necessity, if it becomes necessary, of availing of equipment from other provinces, as we have done in the past. My officials and my staff, the Forest Protection Division in particular, are on top of the situation, monitoring it on a constant basis. I might just add in passing, if I may Mr. Speaker, that there is a very serious fire in the Goose Bay area. Today we had to pull our fighters back from the fire it is so serious.

There is 2 7 degree weather up there, I gather, and in that area, if anybody is familiar with it, there is a lot of caribou moss, so the fire is just sweeping right through the area. Fortunately, it is heading towards land points, so toward the water, and it may burn itself out. But it is serious. The fire in the Grand very -- are broke West ones No. 33 R1926

occurring over which, I think, or eight. the weekend, of there were seven In addition, just before I left to come to the House, as if things were not serious.enough, my Deputy Minister called me aside and said, 'By the way, you might want to know that a fire broke out this afternoon on Bell Island and we had to dispatch . a Canso water bomber over there.' I was not able to get all the details on the fire, 'but it must be serious, to send a water bomber over there. Mr . .

Speaker, the situation is a very serious one and we do not want to find ourselves in a situation where all our resources are strained anymore than they are now. The weather has been unusually dry in most forested areas of the Province for the last month and we are, in fact, about a month ahead of normal

schedule in weather conditions. This has very rapidly increased the fire hazard beyond seasonal norms, to the point where the hazard is classified as extreme in many, many areas, especially in cutovers and brush areas. The fire hazard, of course, is further aggravated by the fact that the trees and bushes in most places have not yet fully greened up, so, therefore, the branches are still very bare and very dry. Mr. Speaker, it is the responsibility of my department, of course, to take every precaution to protect the public and the forest, which is vital to our economy and our way of life.

Therefore, I have decided, without much of an alternative, to place a L1927 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL ban on all outdoor fires and we are relying on the understanding and co-operation of .the public in preventing any outbre~ks. I do want to note, Mr. Speaker, in passing, that the ban does not affect the use of proparie stoves or anything of that nature, like a Coleman stove, as long as they are operated no closer than ten feet to any woods, brush or other inflammable material. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. KR. K. AYLWARD: MR. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Stephenville. KR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Kr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for informing me that he would be making a statement in the House this afternoon. We have just been informed, also, that the fire on Bell Island is now somewhat under control, or is getting close to there, · so at least that is some positive news. Extreme circumstances require extreme measures so we fully support any measures that will help lower or help stop this situation, which is spreading all over the Island. It looks like it is going to be a very bad Summer for forest fires in this Province.

A number of my colleagues are concerned, as I am sure every member of the House is concerned, that every possible measure is being taken, every possible piece of equipment and all manpower available is being used to put a stop this situation. There are fires breaking out, as has been No. 33 R1927

said, all over the place. As one colleague mentioned to me, we would not like to see a repeat of what happened in 1966, I believe I believe it was, where there was a gigantic forest fire problem. We support the measures being taken, but some very extreme measures may have to be taken to make sure this thing is stopped. We support the measures taken today and I would like the minister to keep me informed as to exactly what the situation is over the next few days. Thank you very much. MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: So that the Minister of Justice (Ks. Verg~) can be apprised of ·the situation, just minutes ago I was informed that the fire in Windsor is within minutes of my own house and I raise the issue to make sure that the resources of her department, the Emergency Measures Organizations, ar~ there and using their capabilities to assist in any evacuation. Evacuation is now going on.

I have no doubt it is happening, but I just want to give the minister a chance to assure the House that indeed Windsor and the people and the property threatened in the stricken area are availing of Emergency Measures, .and Emergency Measures is there and doing what they are supposed to do to assist in an evacuation of that sort. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. KS VERGE: Ll928 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House that the Emergency Measures Division of the Department of Justice is routinely brought into play when circumstances like this arise.

I will have to check with my officials to give an up-to-the-minute account of what is actually happening in Buchans. I can supply that up-to-the-minute information to the House later this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. member took the opportunity of conveying his observations to the Minister of Justice. Before moving to Oral Questions, I would like to welcome two groups of students. We have forty-two Grade Vll students from st. Peter's Junior High School, Catalina, with their teachers, Marvin Ryder, Basil Durdle, and Terry Martin.

I would also like to welcome some sixteen Grade Vll and Vlll students from Curling Junior High School, with their teachers Helen Warren and Gary Parsons. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. BAKER: Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education (Kr. Hearn) . Yesterday the minister refused to halt the Mo. 33 Rl928

close down of small community schools while his study into small schools in the Province was going on. The implication was that the minister had no authority to do so. Perhaps the authority lies with the district superintendents. Will the minister instead today, in place of this, offer his support and influence to these small community schools that are threatened with closure, and will be help these communi ties keep the schools open until his study is complete?· MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARIT: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I made it quite clear that the decision for closing schools, ~ ovi ~ g classes or whatever rested entirely in the hands of the school board, not the superintendent. I think we have been talking about three specific areas of the Province where problems have arisen in relation to possible moves and the objections of the parents have been raised and voiced. I have met with representatives of the parents from all three areas. The problem that existed down in St. Bernard's has now been at least postponed for a year. which was what asked for really, to give them a year to assess the situation.

I have talked to delegations of parents from two of the other areas also. and I have assured them, as I do with all groups with which I meet. that I will give any co-operation in any way to help solve the problems which they are now facing. And we will do that for parents in any part of the Province. KR. BAKER: A supplementary. Mr. Speaker. Ll929 Kay 15. 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Gander. KR. BAKER: It is nice, Kr. Speaker. for the minister to go and talk to these people and perhaps give some moral support.

Does the minister understand that any district superintendent has more control over education in this Province than the minister does? And is he comfortable with these little educational fiefdoms that the superintendents have set up around this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. KR. HEA!Ul: The bon. member. Mr. Speaker, as a former teacher. might be walking on very dangerous ground. Superintendents of education are responsible to the school boards.

The total educational policy in the Province. of course. comes under the jurisdiction of the department and, despite what the member thinks. we do have a lot of control over what happens in the Province. We have heard just in recent days an assault. and undoubtedly we will hear it again today. upon my colleague to my left, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Kr. Doyle) about how government spends money in rural areas. If we controlled all expenditures from here and started building schools where we wanted them built, undoubtedly we would hear complaints from the other side.

So the decisions that are made locally are made with the best if intentions. Often, as with decisions made in here, they are not ones which satisfy everybody, but usually we find when people · get together. most No. 33 Rl929

problems, if not all of them, can be solved. This is what we have been doing in the St ;· Bernard's situation. We were involved in that one, and we are involved in the others. And, undoubtedly, the problems that we are now facing out there can be solved if people co-operate with each other. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Gander. MR. BAKER: the Has the minister sought any assurances ·from the district superintendents of the school boards around the Province where this is happening?

Has he sought and received assurances and got the assurances from these people that the schools will remain open until the study is complete? That is what we are after. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Just a short while ago, we set up the small school study, Mr. Speaker, and, despite a press release of, say, a month ago, it was only in recent days when the St.

Bernard's situation was resolved and credit given, I suppose, to the establishment of the small school study and also the work of the workload committee that is presently underway, that people began to zero in on the small school study and what they hoped they would achieve. What we groups Ll930 have and suggested to people in the the May 15, 1986 Vol XL department, because we are assessing many of the problems associated in the field resulting from small schools and resulting from rural areas generally is that perhaps it would be an idea to sit back and see what is going to happen.

If there is any doubt that the problem cannot be solved, of course, by the small school study - it may be well beyond that - then, of course, we do not want to interfere and will not interfere directly with the workings of the board. MR. BAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, to help the minister out, has the minister examined the Manitoba model for making small schools viable?

Does he consider that any of these ideas in use in Manitoba, ideas already being implemented, are useful in Newfoundland and, if so, which ones? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Last year, when we started to zero in on the problems in the small schools in the Province, we were informed at that time that there was a small school symposium taking place in Manitoba, undoubtedly much like the one we will be sponsoring ourselves this Fall.

We sent people to that and it is from the discussions that they had there, as well, of course, as our own experience and knowledge - when I say 'our own' , combined with the experience of the people in the field who work No. 33 Rl930

closely with us -that we zeroed in on the problems that exist in our schools ·. Undoubtedly we will come up with solutions. I know the government will be able to do something about it. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Kr. Power) , the Premier and the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), perhaps I could direct the question to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr.

Ottenheimer) and ask him to use his discretion as who may answer it, himself or one of his colleagues. I would like to ask the minister if he is aware whether or not a solution has been found for funding, joint or otherwise, for the continuation of the Resource Technician Training Programme currently about to finish its first course in North West River, Labrador? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. KR. OTTENHEIKER: Mr.

Speaker, I will have to direct that to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, who is not here, or if he is not here tomorrow take it as notice and answer it on his behalf. KR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. KR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the L1931 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL member for Naskaupi. KR. KELLAND: Just briefly, for the information of the minister and his colleagues, a petition is on the way to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies.

He was advised by telegram yesterday that the petition was on the way, bearing 500 signatures from the North West River - Happy Valley - Goose Bay area. What I would like to ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is would he impress upon his colleague, the Minister of Career Development and Advanced . Studies, the need to present the original, which he will have, of the petition in the House of Assembly to allow the Labrador KHAs to speak in support of the petition to retain the programme in Labrador? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIKER: Kr.

Speaker, I am sure that the minister will be fully cognizant of his duties and responsibilities and will live up to them as it is his traditional manner to so do. MR. EFFORD: · Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett). I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services, Kr. Speaker, is he aware of any problem that had taken place late last Saturday night at Exon House? If he is aware of the problem, would he care to inform No. 33 Rl931

the House on exactly what that problem was? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not particularly aware of any problems at Exon House last Saturday night. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) is she aware or was she informed that late last Saturday night there was a bomb scare at Exon House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. KS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, no, I had not been aware of that. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will have to go back to the Minister of Social Services. Strangely enough there are two ministers in this bon. House of Assembly who do not know exactly what happened late last Saturday night. I would like again to ask the Minister of Social Services would he care to make a comment on the statement I just made to the Minister of Justice. Ll932 May 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The hon. -the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker.

I apologize to the bon. member but he has been asking all kinds of queer questions about Exon House and other group homes around the Province. It is rather difficult to be specific sometimes. Yes, I know what the hon. member . is talking about now. He is talking about the bomb scare that we had at Exon House. I was advised of it and, of course, the police were called in, the building was searched, we did not find anything, and everything reverted to normal. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker, this leads up to the very important point I was trying to make. I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services if he is aware that the staff at Exon House had to search for the bomb? Would he care to make a comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I do not really know if I should comment on that or not. There was a bomb scare. The police were called in and I do not exactly know what procedures were followed but obviously the police were in charge. I do not know who did the actual searching or anything else. All I know is that !lo. 33 Rl932

they got the phone call, the police were called in, the necessary investigation was · done, and nothing was found. I do not know~ho searched or who did what, but I know the search was carried out. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition·. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the point that the member for Port de Grave has made here is that the building was not evacuated. The police came in and asked the staff to search to see if there was a bomb in the place.

Does the Minister of Social Services agree that this is the proper procedure that should be followed as far as Exon House is concerned? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition should direct that question to the police and not to me. MR . BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Okay I will accept the minister's suggestion. I will direct my question to the Minister of Justice.

Would the Minister of Justice tell us whether she accepts that this is a correct Ll933 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL procedure for the police to follow in such a circumstance? MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: I have already said that I had not known about a bomb scare at Exon House until this Question Period. I will be quite willing to investigate what actually happened, what procedure the police followed, and to assess what happened Saturday night . with the senior officials of the Justice Department. MR. BARRY: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Kr. Speaker, I go back again to the Minister of Justice, and I ask her the question. SOME HOlT. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! It is impossible to carry on Question Period if members continue to interrupt when they are called to order on a number of occasions. I ask for silence for members on my left. The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I repeat my question to the Minister of Justice. SOME HOH. MEMBER: No. 33 R1933

Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: Name the gentleman. Name him. MR. BARRY: I repeat my question to the Minister of Justice. If the minister is informed, as she has been, that the staff were asked to do the search for a bomb, that the building was not evacuated, does she accept that as a correct procedure for the police to follow in such a circumstance? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Justice. KS VERGE: Kr.

Speaker, before attempting to evaluate or comment upon what happened at Exon House Saturday night, I would want complete evidence, not hearsay evidence, not second, or third or fourth hand accounts by. members opposite, who presumalby were not personally present and did not observe what actually happened Saturday night. I have undertaken to have an investigation made by the senior officials of the department, and at that point an assessment concluded about the appropriateness of the police actions. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition, a final supplementary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sit down! Sit down! KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L1934 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Kr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Justice is this normal? Would she normally expect not to be informed by her colleague, the Minister of Social Services, about an occurrence such as a bomb threat?

And seeing as the Minister of Social Service has not had the interest to enquire and find out what procedures were followed, would she now consult with her colleague, would she ask her colleague to make an enquiry as to what took place there so that the minister can properly evaluate what took place and determine whether the actions of the police were appropriate? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Justice. KS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, officials of the two departments involved, Social Services and Justice, probably are consulting right now. MR. BARRY: 'Probably'. I see. They do not tell the minister any more.

MS VERGE: Obviously the staff of Exon House called in the police so there was consultation at the time of the scare or the threat. I have already undertaken to this House that I, as Minister of Justice, will have the senior people in the Justice Department investigate and report to me. An assessment will be made of what happened on the part of the police Saturday night and I think that is quite proper in the circumstances. MR.. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. No. 33 R1934

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: My question is for the Minister of Justice as well and it has to do with The Leaseholds in St. John's Act and it is essentially by way of an update. Last Fall there was an indication of a major number of problems with the particular act itself, and the problems centred around the difficulty of tenants getting permanent claim to their land. I would like to ask the minister has there been any progress on getting some sort of permanent solution to that problem? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Ye~, Mr. Speaker.

I am happy to report to the House that thanks to the initiative taken by my colleague, the member . for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) and the Government House Leader, there are efforts underway to present to this House during this sitting further amendments to the appropriate legislation so that the current practical · problems being encountered by legal practitioners in converting St. John • S· leaseholds to freeholds, problems having to do with time and money, will be reduced and minimized. The Government House Leader is personally aware of some of these problems.

He led the effort to get the present legislation. It appeared that that legislation would take care of past problems but in fact some lawyers practicing in this area have frustrated the good intentions behind that legislation and it is now incumbent upon us to try and refine the legislation so that the Ll935 May 15, 1986 Vol XL delays will be minimized. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: My supplementary has to do with a similar kind of problem that just occurred last week, and that is the problem of trailer owners who are renting the land underneath their trailers. It seems to me a sort of modern analogy to the problem that exists with The Leaseholds In St. John's Act.

What I would like to ask the minister is in view of the problems these ·trailer owners are having, basically the fact that they have no control over their land, is it possible to have a look at this particular piece of legislation, or a piece of legislation similar to it, that may give these individuals some sort of security of protection similar to that which we have given to the people who have been on this long-term leasehold land? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I understand from my colleague here that this issue is mentioned in today' s issue of the The Bvening Telegram.

I will certainly be glad to take a look at that issue with the lawyers in the Department of Justice and see if in fact there is a problem which can be corrected or reduced through some kind of legislation or regulations. MR. FENWICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 33 Rl935

The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: I understand that somewhere around fifty of these individuals are in a position where they may be evicted by this Fall. Is it possible to have that review or that look at this legislation done on a very quick basis so that some indication can be given to them as to wh~ther or not there might be a legislative remedy to the problems they have? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Kr. Speaker, I can certainly assure the House that the problem can be addressed quickly without the benefit of some more background information and research.

I cannot assure the House of how quickly a solution can be found or if indeed a solution is possible. I will certainly undertake to have the issue addressed immediately and if there is any quick and easy solution to have it put forward as soon as possible. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have another queer question for the Minister of Social Services. I find it very surprising, Kr. Speaker, that the Minister of Social Services takes this problem so lightly.

My question to the Minister of Social Services not only concerns a problem that was there on Saturday night, since I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services if L1936 May 15, 1986 Vol XL he is aware of a problem at Exon House on Sunday night? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: I think that question is a little bit queer, Mr. Speaker. No, I am not aware of anything on Sunday night. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. ·speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: Let me inform the minister of some of the things that he does not know about that are going on in his department. Such a thing as a bomb scare at Exon House or anywhere, in any building, is a very serious thing. Strangely enough, I was informed of this on Sunday night, but is the minister aware that there was a prowler found lurking in the building Sunday night around eleven o' clock? Would the minister care to comment on that? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of a prowler at Exon House. MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. KR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, we have ·brought these No. 33 R1936

things to the attention of the Minister of Social Services. Obviously he is not even sitting in his seat when it comes to answering a question. I will ask the Minister of Social Services, taking into consideration the seriousness of a bomb threat, the fact that the building was not evacuated, the fact that the staff had to search for the bomb, and the fact that there was a prowler reported in .. the basement of the Exon House on Sund~y night, would he investigate that problem and report back to this House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member's questions have about as much credability today .as they did a month or so ago when he got up on the other side of the House and waved a piece of paper and suggested to the House that he had a report in his hand indicating there was a real, serious problem at Exon House. We asked him to table it and he never has from that day to this. I doubt very much if he had the report. If he did, he was not a very responsible person in that he never did table it.

We are still waiting for it, the staff are still waiting for it and the parents of the children who are over there are still waiting for it. So if the hon. member has it, then he should table it. To answer the hon. member' s question, I was advised of the incident of the bomb threat the next morning. I was told that the police went in and that everything was back to normal. There was no bomb found. Now there was absolutely no need of anybody to L1937 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL report to me any further than that. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Kr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I have a question for the Minister of ' Fisheries (Mr. Rideout). The question concerns the newly stated policy of rights being given to the Conne River Indian Band to remove 1500 salmon from the estuary of the Conne River by traps or nets. I might point out that this policy came as a comp.lete surprise to apparently everyone. Was the minister· aware that this policy was being negotiated and agreed to when the Conne River Indian Band received status? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. KR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I think that the question might be better directed to my colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer). We do not have any departmental role to play in inland fisheries' policy or regulations or food fishery or anything of that nature. But from a purely provincial Fisheries perspective, we were aware that the former federal minister, Mr. Fraser, had engaged in consultations with, I assume, representatives of the Conne River Indian Band with a view to providing them with, I believe it was, 1200 fish as a Native food fishery.

When we became aware of that as a provincial Department of Fisheries, we certainly let it be No. 33 R1937

known that we ·could not be supportive of that kind of policy decision. We subsequently took the matter up with the present Fisheries minister (Mr. Siddon) and it is my understanding that he is reviewing the negotiations that took place between his predecessor and representatives of the Conne River Indian Band. At the present time that is the status as far as I know as the provincial Minister of Fisheries. KR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. KR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I can deduce from the minister's answer that the provincial government is not indeed supporting the policy of taking 1,500 fish directly out of the river. If the minister wants me to refer the question to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, then I will be delighted to that. I ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs would he confirm what the Minister of Fisheries just indicated, that the Newfoundland Government is not supportive of the policy of removing 1,500 salmon from the estuary of the Conne River by traps and nets? MR. RIDEOUT: Are you supportive? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIKER: Kr. Speaker, I can certainly inform the House, as indeed my · colleague, the bon. Minister of F-isheries, has, that the Ll938 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL Government of Newfoundland does not support allocation of fishery resources based on ethnic or racial grounds. I think roughly a year ago, a month or two one way or the other, the government was informed that the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans was looking into this matter and the Government of Newfoundland did then inform the federal government of what the policy was.

Indeed, no more recently than two or three weeks ago , in a personal conversation with the federal Minister not of Fisheries but of Indian Affairs (Mr. Crombie), and then followed up by letter about a week or ten days ago, that position, which is not new, which dates back, was reconfirmed, that this government opposes this allocation of fishery resources on ethnic grounds, whether ethnic be people of Micmac origin or English origin or Irish origin or Channel Island origin or Jewish origin or Chinese origin or whatever. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Windsor Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would assume, again, from the minister's comments that his government is going on record and making strong representation, if that is indeed the position of the government, that they are not supportive of this. Federal · Fisheries apparently is espousing this particular policy, to the extent that anyone knows, because all we have heard officially are Federal Fisheries comments. If Federal Fisheries officials feel that the No. 33 Rl938

Conne River Indian Band are entitled to something extra from Conne River, then would Federal Fisheries be prepared to pay for this, similar to what is being done for the commerical fishermen who are being asked to sell back their licences to the provincial government? If indeed the Conne River Indian Band feels that there is an entitlement there, maybe an option is to offer financial compensation or something else­ that would be just as attractive to the Conne River Indian Band as the policy of taking 1,500 fish out of the estuary of the river. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR.

OTTEBHEIMER: Mr. Speaker,_ of course, the provincial government position is that the fishery resource has to be equitably accessible and the benefits of its harvesting flow to all residents of the area on a fair and equitable basis. Now, of course, with respect to Conne River, there have been discussions with respect to the establishment of a reserve, but that is a different question. The resource in the Conne River, the salmon, are a mobile species which does not stay within a reserve or stay outside of a reserve.

Our position on the allocation of that resource is not that the residents of Conne River or the Micmac people of the Conne River region do not have the right to an equitable access to it, but that it is not an exclusive access and that there has to be an equitable sharing of that resource among all the residents of the region. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. Ll939 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries.

In view of the great concern being shown by many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to conserve and to maintain, indeed to increase our Atlantic salmon stock, is the minister aware that in the past couple of years the federal government have been consistently hiring fewer and fewer game wardens, river guardians and the like, leaving many of the rivers and streams in this Province, and in the Labrador area too I expect, completely unprotected and wide open to poaching? I can assure the mii :lister that this problem of p~aching is getting quite out of control in many areas of the Province. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt about the validity of the question raised by the hon. gentleman from Bonavista North. Representations of that kind from the recreational aspect of policing and wardens on rivers is dealt with intergovernmentally between the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth and the appropriate ministers in Ottawa. That did not only start over the last year or so, I would like to remind the hon. gentleman, it goes back four or five years when the contracting out to private firms and laying off departmental employees began.

I would like to take the opportunity to tell the hon. gentleman that I made the point, when we had our last round No. 33 Rl939

of discussions on Atlantic salmon management, that there are a whole range of areas where we need to move in. One is better and more adequate protection on the river systems, others are enhancement and programmes of that nature. So there is no divergence of opinion between us on that matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder is the minister also aware that in addition to an inadequate and insufficient number of river guardians and wardens on regularly scheduled rivers, or regularly licenced rivers, that we have many rivers and streams in Newfoundland that are not scheduled salmon rivers but have large supplies of salmon in them and they too are being poached? So , Kr.

Speaker, as a final question to the minister, I wonder will the minister assure this House that in the interest of conserving, maintaining the Atlantic salmon sto~ks that we have in this Province, that he will insist to his federal counterpart that we have a sufficient number of river guardians and wardens on our rivers and streams in place this Summer? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the bon. gentleman that we have I believe collectively come up with some innovative ideas for a better presence of guardians on our river Ll940 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL systems and we have made certain suggestions that if acted on we think will be a great step forward from the system that we have today. MR. SPEAICER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Answers to Questions for whieh Notice has been Given MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR.

YOUNG: I would like to give an answer to the question asked during the Committee on my Estimates which provides the necessary information regarding construction of the extension to the Harbour Lodge chronic care facility. Petitions MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a petition, Kr. Speaker, from 284 residents of the South Coast of Newfoundland. I will read the prayer of the petition. It is rather lengthly but I think it deserves to be read in its entirety. "This is a petition of concern No. 33 Rl940

regarding the proposed automation of lighthouses on the Newfoundland coastline commencing April 1, 1987. The decision in favour of automation of lighthouses not only worries the lightkeepers themselves but the 2,000 fishermen," - MR. MATTHEWS: That is a federal matter. It is out of order. MR. GILBERT: - "numerous sailors and pleasure craft operators who sail these waters. "The absolute necessity of manned lighthouses is easily acknowledged if one person listens to the practical and reasonable explanations. •• KR. MATTHEWS: Send it to Don Kazankowski. MR.

GILBERT: "Let us use the stretch of land from Port aux Basques to Green Island in Fortune Bay as an example. Along this stretch of the coast there are about thirteen manned lighthouses spaced at an average of thirty miles apart. This distance is significant to pleasure craft operators and fishermen with respect to the distance their CB radio equipment can be used to signal for help, about twenty-five to thirty miles over water, should the need arise . ..

Communities such as LaPoile, Grand Bruit, McCallum, and Francois are unable to communicate by CB radio more than three or four miles outside the harbour due to the hilly terrain. Should a disaster call be issued by a vessel in trouble, the communities will not receive the message because the boats are out of range. An unmanned lighthouse is Ll941 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL unable to respond, thus a disaster could ensue,

whereas a manned lighthouse can be a direct contact with the Coast Guard by a mobile telephone and it has use of VHF and CB radio. "Lighthouse keepers also play a valuable role in the maintenance of machinery, painting of various structures, weather reports, reporting damages, and reporting local knowledge .. of the coastline to sailors who are unfamiliar with these waters.

The provision of local knowledge is especially important on the South Coast of Newfoundland where there are so many rocks that present problems to shipping that are not marked by buoys. ''Another reason why automatic lighthouses are inferior to manned lighthouses is assessability·. The South Coast of Newfoundland is prone to stormy seas during half of the Winter months. This is the reason for the inassessability of the lighthouses. If a light should go out or a foghorn quit, no one will be able to · immediately remedy the problem in an automated lighthouses.

Added to this is the fact that a storm would prevent anybody from reaching a lighthouse from four to seven days. Thus the safety of sailors is neglected for this period of time and perhaps several times throughout the year. This is negligence. "The explanations above are supportive of manned lighthouses, not only for the purpose of saving about 100 jobs but also to ensure that sailors are provided with maximum protection against disaster and immediate attention to rescue. "We hope this letter will appeal to your sense of reason and No. 33 Rl941

concern for the lives of others who work in a harsh environment. Thank you." Mr. Speaker, I heard some of the backbenchers on the other side say this is a federal problem. No doubt it is. But the other thing about it is it is a transportation problem. I feel that in Newfoundland we do have a Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and the Government of Newfoundland has a responsibility to protect the lives of Newfoundlanders. The South Coast is an area where we do not have a Tran~-Canada that has to be upgraded. What we have seen happen on the South Coast ·of Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, is a downgrading of the services from CN Marine and, with this latest move, we see another example of an uncaring federal government which is reducing services to Newfoundlanders. Is the federal government saying it has to be another case of user-pay? This seems to me to be the attitude of the current federal government. They reduce services. I read that petition in its entirety because it was written by the people of the South Coast who signed that petition, tbe people from LaPoile, Francois, Grey River and MacCallum. They outlined the problems as they see them, in their language.

I support them and I wonder if the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) made any effort to contact his counterparts in Ottawa to ensure that those lighthouses are maintained in their present state? I feel that there is a cause here. The petition pointed out the weaknesses of the automated system and the situations that could happen. L1942 May 15, 1986 Vol XL . I speak from experience because I know the light keeper on Penguin Islands and there are times during the Winter when they have been there for an extra two weeks waiting for the weather to get smooth enough so that they could come and change them.

Just imagine the case if it were an automated lighthouse and it went out. The fishermen of that area and the sailors along that Co-ast would be out without protection for a period of two weeks while they were waiting to get people out to repair it. For these reasons I support the petition and I ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) to make representation to his counterpart in Ottawa to maintain manned . lighthouses along the South Coast. MR. TULIC: Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon; the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I want to rise in support of the petition so ably presented by the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) on behalf of some 284 people. I understand that most of the people here in this petition come from the South Coast of the Province but I would also want to speak as a Northeast Coaster, if you want to, to this petition, for this very simple reason: while the circumstances and while the weather condition may be somewhat different on the South Coast than they are the Northeast Coast, it applies equally to all Newfoundland.

I think it is a petition that should be taken very seriously by No. 33 Rl942

the provincial government. We heard, as the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) said, some of the trained seals on the backbenches saying this was a federal matter. I do not think the member for Burgeo-Bay '-Espoir is saying that it is not, but surely this government has the right, and should, make representation to the federal government over a matter that is of such an urgent and dire necessity. There is very little point in the hon. gentlemen in the backbenches trying to cover up for what the federal government should or should no.t do. The petition is a very urgent petition.

As the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir said, while we are nn_tmagainst automation in many fields, this is one of the fields and one of the areas where automation can be put in place that I think we would have to be against. Anybody who recognizes and realizes the dangers to which people who live along the coastlines of Newfoundland and Labrador go through would recognize that manned lighthouses are a necessity. The member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Gilbert) pointed out that at times when there is a distress signal issued by vessels in trouble, lighthouse keepers in Newfoundland have traditionally been known as people who save lives. They have saved, I would suspect, hundreds and hundreds of lives in this Province and with an automated lighhouse, of course, a person would not be there to help people who are in distress. The other point that the bon. gentleman made, of course, is that when an automated light goes out, it will sometimes take weeks and L1943 May 15, 1986 Vol XL weeks and weeks before you can get somebody into an area to put it back in place.

He made the point that lighthouse keepers have been known to be on islands for sometimes up to two weeks before getting off the island and back on land. I want to relate another incident which happened in my ·own district of Fogo some two weeks ago where there was an automated light out, and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) knows about this. As a matter of fact, we had a meeting with the young fellow yesterday evening where lights have not been put back in place and the consequence of that was the young fellow lost his ' boat.

Indeed, if you want to say this, if it happened. farther out to Sea, we could have had a loss of life. I think that is what the important issue here is. Although we are losing 100 jobs, and in Newfoundland that is bad enough with the highest unemployment rate in Canada, but certainly the overriding concern of the people in this letter is the safety factor. I can say I have taken a trip with the gentleman from Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert). He is one of the better - I suppose you have to call yourself an amateur seaman - one of the better amateur seamen in Newfoundland.

I learned a lot about the South Coast on that trip with him, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), the President of the Liberal Party and one of the best, I suppose, captains on the South Coast at that time, Mr. Nat Slade. MR. CALLAN: From Arnold's Cove. No. 33 R1943

MR. TULK: From Arnold's Cove. While I would maintain that the Northeast Coast of the Province is probably the roughest and the most treacherous in regards to the sea that you will find anywhere in Canada and perhaps anywhere in the world - MR. WARREN: Labrador. MR. TULK: Yes. When I say Northeast Coast I mean the whole coast. The South Coast, in terms of being able to navigate because of the tremendous amount of fog that they do get down there - and they do get a tremendous amount of fog - has got - to be one of the most difficult areas, again, in the world, but for a different reason, to navigate. So , Mr.

Speaker, I would support the petition of those people and I would ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), and, indeed, if he is not here, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), because by and large we are talking about people who fish. There are more boats on the sea that fish perhaps than there are boats that do other things on the sea. While it is a federal matter, I would ask that somebody on that side of the House rise and speak in support of this petition and take further actic ;m so that this petition just not be placed on the table of the House and referred to a particular department.

Take some action and do not let this end up like a good many other petitions, Mr. Speaker, filed away somewhere in somebody's garbage bucket. Take the petition, look L1944 May 15, 1986 Vol XL at the concerns that are on it and take it to the appropriate federal authorities to see th~t what might be a very dangerous situation is adverted. It is not good enough for them, Mr. Speaker, just to hide behind their political party. All HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition and, of course, I echo the sentiments of all members of this side of the House. We have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that the people of this Province, so dependant on the sea, have not been served as we would like in terms of safety at sea. Of course, safety at sea relates in large measure, or in considerable measure anyway, to things like lighthouses and buoys and weather forecasting and so on and so forth.

We have taken a position as a government for quite a number of years that air/sea rescue, which is another aspect of safety at sea, should be increased in this Province. I take a sort of personal interest in this. myself, coming from one of the great fishing districts in this Province, an electoral district which has one of the larger fish plants in the Province. Of course, also in my district we have Fort Amherst which is the entrance of the harbour and was one of the guiding sentinels to people who came to this Province for many years back. No. 33 Rl944

But even moreso than that, my own family is related to lighthouses. My mother's people came from the lighthouse keepers of Cape Race. As a matter of fact, my mother received the S. 0. S. from the Titanic when the Titanic sank and passed on that message. So that is a reflection of how useful lighthouse keepers can be in times of distress. On my wife's side, her family were the lighthouse keepers at Cape Spear, the Cantwells, very noted lighthouse keepers. So I have a personal interest in this. Pond, Newfoundland, hereby respectfully petition the hon.

Minister of Transportation and the House of Assembly to cause, as soon as possible, the necessary upgrading and repair of the Ocean Pond Road . which has deteriorated into a deplorable condition that greatly impedes vehicle passage over the said road." Mr. Speaker, this road, according to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), is called a Class Four road. He describes in his correspondence to the people who are applying to get this road I have no problem whatever in upgraded that a Class Four road is supporting the position brought used and is called a seasonal forward by the · bon. member. I road. But, Mr.

Speaker, this road think that anything we can do to certainly is not a Class Four promote safety at sea, to guide road, if that is the case, because our mariners and, in particular, this road is used for the .full our fishermen, giving them four seasons. We have here, Kr. assistance and giving them safety Speaker, some 455 people who live and giving them comfort, I would there six or eight months of the favor. I would say that that year in cabins. The road there, should relate to better weather Mr.

Speaker, is used by hundreds forecasting and more frequent and hundreds of people throughout weather forecasting in this the Winter months for obtaining Province also. So we have no firewood. It is used also, Mr. hesitation in supporting this Speaker, by the Department of petition. Lands and Forests as a log cutting MR. EFFORD: Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Kr. Speaker, I have a petition to present to this hon. House on behalf of 455 residents, not only from my district but from the district of Bellevue, from St.

John's and area, pertaining to a road leading to Ocean Pond. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, reads: "We , the undersigned residents of Ocean L1945 May 15, 1986 Vol XL area. A number of people obtain a living from cutting logs in that particular area, in the Fox Karsh Road area, which extends off Ocean Pond Road. Taking all this into consideration, Mr. Speaker, we can certainly not class Ocean Pond Road as a Class Four road because a Class Four road, as stated in the correspondence from the Minister of Transportation, is a road that is used only seasonally.

This road is not used just a few months of the year, it is used year round so therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is a road that is getting an excessive amount of usage. It is also now a road that No. 33 Rl945

is not fit to put a horse and cart over, let alone a vehicle. I heard a conunent on the news the other morning concerning the main roads across the Province of Newfoundland indicating 80 per cent of them are not fit to drive over and I think, Mr. Speaker, this goes to even speak even more about exactly the type of assistance and type of work that is being done by the Department of Transportation on these roads. These roads are very beneficial to the people who are using them. Their vehicles cost thousands and thousands of dollars, especially those woods vehicles.

Most of the people who are using that road in the Wintertime log cutting are people who can barely exist on the income that they are obtaining from different sources. They are driven to woodcutting because of the high cost of home heating oil and the high cost of electricity, which we in Opposition are continually fighting to try to get something done about. But this is a source by which these people can obtain cheaper fuel, and in obtaining the cheaper fuel, they find going over this road is costing equally as much because every time they go over the road it is causing extensive damage to their vehicles. Mr.

Speaker, the time of the year has come when these people who have these cabins in there, return. There are some 400 cabins in that particular area. By the way, there is also a small restaurant and there is a small grocery store. As I said, Mr. Speaker, it is not just an out-of-the-way road, it is a road that is used quite extensively, especially from now until late Fal:l. This road will get L1946 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL extensive use and very seldom, once or twice a year, we get a grader to run over that area. So , Kr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) and the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) to take this under consideration, to support this petition and to ensure that not only the people of Port de Grave district, Bellevue district, Placentia district, but the people who are from St. John's and all other people who use this road for fire wood, for cabins, for recreational purposes, for logging purposes get their wishes. Take it under consideration so we will see something very seriously done with this road in the very, very near future.

Other than that, I do not see, as one gentleman said to me the other day, it is getting to the point where it will have to be closed off completely and have absolutely no transportation. As I said earlier in my statement, you would not even get a horse and buggy over it if is let go much longer. Kr. Speaker, I fully support this petition and I ask members of the government to support it and to make sure we see something in the very near future done about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thought somebody on the government benches would want to No. 33 R1946

rise. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is not in his place.· Mr. Speaker, my colleague, who just presented that petition indicated that he thinks that it is in the district of Bellevue. Whether it is the district of Bellevue or not, I am not certain, but I think it is in Harbour Main District. I think Ocean Pond is in the Minister of Municipal Affairs's (Mr. Doyle) district, and, of course, the 400 to 500 cabins that are located on this road. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition.

Perhaps two weeks ago I received a phone call from a constituent who lives in Dildo, in my district, complaining about the fact that the road that he and his family and· other families lived on had not been graded so far this Spring. He complained about the fact that the grader was preoccupied in trying to do some work on this very road, the Ocean Pond Road. And, of course, my first inclination was to agree with constituent who called from Dildo that the grader and highways equipment should be on residential roads as a priority before cabin roads. But, Mr.

Speaker, there is lots to be said for maintaining this road as well. The reason I wanted to stand and support this petition, Mr. Speaker, as I said I am not sure if it is in Bellevue district or not, but whether or not- is inunaterial. The reason I wanted to stand and talk about this particular road is because it is supposed to be maintained by the Highways Depot at Whitbourne. That is the highways depot that is supposed to maintain this road. That also, Mr. Speaker, is the same highways depot that is supposed to maintain the Markland L1947 May 15, 1986 Vol XL road.

We saw a month ago, or thereabouts, on the CBC Here and How programme the people in Markland out blocking the road protesting because of the deplorable condition of their road, the road that leads, of course, through Markland, through Colinet, up to Branch, St. Bride's and all that area, into the district of St. Mary's - The Capes. The Markland Road, Mr. Speaker, was in a deplorable condition. As I said, a day ·or so later I received calls from down Dildo way and the roads down there were in deplorable condition.

Now, of course~ even though the grader was on this road, the Ocean Pond Road, two or three weeks ago, here today we have a petition presented in the Houae_complaining about the state of that road. Mr. Speaker, to bottom line in all of this - and I have said this before in this House and I will say it once more today - is that when the Whi tbourne depot was transferred from being under the jurisdiction of the larger Bay Roberts depot to the supervision of the depot at Point Verde in Placentia, that is when everything seemed to go downhill as regards to maintenance of all of the roads in that area.

Getting back to the state that the Markland Road was in a couple of weeks ago or a month ago, when the frost was going out of the ground and a lot of was to be expected, it was natural, but the road need not have been in nearly the state it was in, Mr. Speaker. On that programme, Here and IJow, the highways foreman, whom I know very well and whom the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) knows very well because, I believe, he got him the job as No. 33 Rl947

foreman - he lives in his district in Trinity - Bay de Verde but I know him as well through camping and marriage and so on - he was on television saying that the reason the grader was not in there and there was nothing being done on that road - and I have heard the man say it dozens of times, I was going to say hundreds, but I have heard the same foreman, when I have talked to him year after year in the last ten years, you can expect the line that will come from him before you evert make the call - the grader is broke down or this piece of equipment is not working and so on and so on.

As I said, Whitbourne depot was working fairly well until it was transferred from the Bay Roberts supervision over to Point Verde. Billy Brennan is the supervisor over there in the Placentia district. Mr. Speaker, they are all over, the complaints about the roads. That I believe, Mr.

Speaker, explains why this cabin road to Ocean Pond which is used, as I said, by about 500 cabin owners, in addition to people who go in there to cut firewood and to cut logs and so on, like the Markland Road, like the road to Spread Eagle, like the road in Dildo and so on and all dirt roads are in the deplorable condition they are in. It has a lot to do with the way ·that the Whitbourne is not being provided with new and proper equipment. KR. SPEAKER: Orde ·r, please! The bon. member's time has elapsed. SOME HOH. MEMBERS: By leave. L1948 May 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. CALLAN: By leave! SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR.

CALLAN: Since my colleagues on the government benches do not want to grant me leave, Mr. Speaker, I conclude on that comment. More and better and newer equipment needs to be provided to the depot at Whitbourne and then all roads serviced by that particular depot, I am sure, will be brought up to standard. PREMIER PECKFORD: There is something wrong there somewhere. MR. -CALLAN: Well, it should be investigated. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Bill No. 22, "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act. 1975". MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. KR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, this bill gives us an opportunity to di~cuss the role of the funeral directors and the embalmers in this Province and, indeed, across the nation. We can justify the position of funeral director. I remember in the 1960s, there was a little book published, the title of which was Oh. Death, Here is No. 33 Rl948

thy Sting - not Oh, death, where is thy sting?, but Oh, Death, Here is thy Sting. MR. BAIRD: Halleujah, brother! MR. DECKER: Kr. Speaker, if the bon. member would wish to tell us what he sees to shout and sing about, I would gladly sit down and let him tell us. MR. BAIRD: You are doing so well I am encouraged. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. DECKER: The point that this particular book was making, Kr. Speaker, was that there is a place for irresponsibility in the role of the funeral director in Canada. .This little.booklet, which I never bought, I read one time while browsing in a book store.

It was so thin that I read it in about fifteen minutes. But it pointed out some of the abuses and some of the things . which are happening in that particular segment of society. It definitely proved that the sting of death can certainly be in the cost of the funeral. The title of the book, Mr. Speaker, reminded me of a conversation that I had with a funeral director. In a different incarnation of mine, a funeral director and I were riding in the black limousine which goes in front of the funeral procession.

I honestly thought that I had stumbled upon a very conscientious, concerned individual when he said to me, 'Reverend, I do not try to Ll949 May 15, 1986 Vol XL encourage my customers to have expensive funerals. ' He said, ' I try to encourage them to have a modest, dignified funeral with a casket which is not overly expensive. ' I thought to myself, well, here is a man who is indeed conscientious and caring.

But he spoiled my praise of him when he said to me, 'The reason I do not encourage those big, eX:pensive funerals is that it is so hard to collect the money.' He was not concerned with the people after all, he was concerned with the difficulty he had in collecting the money when he had a too expensive funeral. MR. CALLAN: A typical Tory businessman. MR. DECKER: He was a businessman, Kr. .speaker. MR. CALLAN: Yes, and a Tory too, by the sound of it! MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, in Newfoundland outports, the role of the funeral director is a relatively new one.

I am sure outport members can remember that when a member of the community died, friends came in and took over. The coffin was manufactured from local lumber. In later years it was covered with some sort of cloth to make it look a little more presentable. Some people made them in advance. That was quite common. We had a little general store and coming on in the Spring of the year when prudent people, always preparing for their future, realized that there could be a shortage of coffin handles, it was quite common that if you had an old gentleman living with you who was a little bit sick and who No. 33 R1949

possibly would not survive until navigation opened and the coastal boats brought in more coffn handles, it was quite common, Mr. Speaker, that the handles would be bought in advance. I can tell of one case where an old gentleman was in his dying bed, he was on his last days, and when his loving wife bought the coffin handles, she placed them under the bed in which he died within a week or . so. It was quite common in Newfoundland outports, and it still is today in many of our outports, that the undertaker or the embalmer is not a part of the picture. He is not required.

I will admit, and I will be the first one to agree, that there is a place in the funeral for the funeral director, there is a place for the undertaker, provided it does not become a closed shop and provided it does not become a total ripoff. Like any business, these are the dangers which are there, Mr. Speaker. When a loved one dies, the relatives are not particularly in the mood to get out and bicker over price, they are not particularly in the mood to come out and bicker over whether the funeral should cost $3000 or $5000.

Now, if they were buying a car, there would be bickering, if you were buying a new boat, there would be bickering, but this is a time when emotions are there. People are at their weakest time, and they cannot argue over price. I should point out, Mr. ·Speaker, that funerals, you know, I am sure members are aware, funerals are not for the dead people. The last person to be taken into consideration after the funeral is the dead person. He is just dirt, L1950 May 15, 1986 Vol XL dust, gone back from whence he came.

The funeral is for the living and there is that tendency in human natuce to try to make up for some of the things which we did not do in the past, so you spend $5000. Instead of giving it to the cancer society, which may invesitgate what took the loved one, or instead of giving it to the heart foundation, it is given these are hypocrites, Mr. Speaker. My coleague has asked me what they are. I will tell you what · they are, they are hypocrites. Do you want my other story? I will not tell the other story.

Very often families who have gone through a long term of suffering with an old person, families who have not treated that o·ld person the way they should have, who have been known to subconsciously wish that the day of death would soon arrive, when the day of death does come, they feel so guilty that they go and slap $5 , 000 or $6 , 000 or $7,000 into a funeral for the living, not for the dead at all. This is the most vulnerable, this is the word I was looking for just now, Mr.

Speaker, it is a very vulnerable time and unethical funeral directors, if there were any, they could approach the family at that time and they could entice them into spending more money than they can afford to put on a display for the living, not for the dead. The dead does not know a whole lot about the event, Mr. Speaker. In Newfoundland outports, from the beginning of our civilization here, it was quite common for the friends and the relatives to take full responsibility to dress the deceased person in his best clothes and put him into a coffin and bury him. Well, Mr . Speaker, No. 33 Rl950

if we were to talk to the average Newfoundlander today, especially Newfoundlanders in some of the larger towns, in Grand Falls, I would challenge the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) to talk to some of his constituents, I would challenge the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), I would challenge any of the members from the ~arger towns and cities in this Province -to ask your average constituent, is he _or she allowed to take the body of a deceased relative or friend and put that body into a hand-made wooden casket and tend to the funeral without the assistance of a funeral parlour. MR.

YOUNG: There is no law against that. MR. DECKER: Absolu~ey, Mr. Speaker. I know there is no law against it. MR. FLIGHT: Conflict of interest over there now. MR. DECKER: Now, Mr. Speaker, if we are going to have conflict of interest in this debate, I would ask that the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) to declare his conflict of interest before he starts heckling me. I will sit down and let him get up and declare his conflict of interest. If he will declare his conflict of interest, I am quite prepared to sit down. Does the member want to do that? Does he want to declare his conflict?

If so, I will sit down and let him declare his conflict. MR. YOUNG: It was already done the other day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! · L1951 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. DECKER: I will declare my conflict, Mr. Speaker, yes. As a former clergyman, and once you are ordained you are always ordained, I am in practice since 1971, but as a former practicing clergyman, Mr. Speaker, who was in a business but thrown out of business by the linerboard mill which was forced out by government, I will say that there is a place for corruption.

I am saying there is a good valid place for the undertaker but there is a place for corruption in this business and it attracts people who thrive on corruption, Mr. Speaker. The possibility is there to attract such people, that is why it is ever good that we all should declare our conflict of interest before we discuss such a matter. I declare mine and now we can discuss it. What I was trying to say was this, Mr. Speaker, the average person in the larger centres of this Province is not aware that he or she is allowed to take the person who is deceased, put him into a hand-made casket, or no casket, and bury him.

As the Minister of Public Works points out, quite validly, that is still permitted in this Province. Of course it is still permitted. MR. YOUNG: The memorial society also has a plan. MR. DECKER: I am glad the minister is staying in his seat. I am glad that the minister is very much aware of what is going on here. What I am getting at is that every protection must be maintained for Newfoundlanders so that the day will never come in this Province when the services of an undertaker, the services of a No. 33 R1951

funeral director, are compulsory by law. Now, I , do not think this bill is suggesting that for a minute. There is no indication here. But when you get pressure groups, when you get interest groups. there is always the danger, Mr. Speaker, that the day will come when the average Newfoundlander will not be allowed to bur;<y his relative• s or his friend's body as- he sees fit. Now that is something that we must nip in the bud, that we must avoid at all costs. That is why I am speaking to this bill today.

I am not going to take up the full half hour, but I want to go on record, . and I think the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) agrees with me, because I have already said that the funeral is basically for the living, it is not for the dead. I am arguing that the right of Newfoundlanders to bury their dead as they see fit must ever be maintained. I would shudder to think that the day would ever come when this right would be taken away from Newfoundlanders.

And I still maintain that there are people in the larger centres today who are so used, so accustomed to seeing the undertaker and the funeral director, seeing the hearse, seeing the black limousines, they are so accustomed to this that they are convinced that somehow- MR. YOUNG: That is the only way to go. MR. DECKER: That is the only way to go, as the minister points out. MR. YOUNG: That is right. Go in s-tyle. MR. PATTERSON: Ll952 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL You know better than that, Chris. Come on, boy, play your cards face up! MR.

DECKER: I am not getting through to -the member, so for his edification I will again say that today, under Newfoundland • s tradition and law, anyone is allowed to bury his relative. MR. PATTERSON: You can dig your own grave and get into it, too. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, you see regulations coming in of such a frivolous nature. I mean, I am talking about a serious subject here and members opposite are having an extremely difficult time trying to contain themselves. This crowd sees humour in everything, Mr. Speaker. Earlier today in this House we discussed the fact that there was a prowler in Exon House.

This topic was a big laugh. a big joke for members on the other side. We talked today about a bomb threat, a bomb scare at Exon House. This topic was a big laugh, a big joke. I am now talking, Kr. Speaker, about death and funerals, Mr. Speaker, and this is a big laugh. MR. PATTERSON: About the death of the Liberal Party .. MR. DECKER: Surely goodness something must be serious, we must be able to speak about something in this hon. Assembly· without driving members opposite into fits of laughter and peals of glee.

Surely goodness there must be some seriousness to this bill, otherwise, why is the time of this House being wasted? Why was it brought forth? · If No. 33 Rl952

members want to find something to laugh at, go pick up a Newfie Joke Book for seventy-five cents and laugh in your spare time. But do not laugh at a bill which is so serious that the Minister of Health is guiding it through this House; do not laugh when there is a bomb scare at Exon House, do not laugh when there might have been a prowler in Exon House. Surely goodness there is some seriousness in this. Mr. Speaker, speaking to this bill, I would also like to draw to the attention of this House, again I know everyone knows it, that we do not have any cremation facilities · in Newfoundland.

Today, if it is the wish of a family that their loved one be cremated, I understand the body ha,s to be taken to Halifax. Is that correct, Mr. Speaker? DR. TWOMEY: That is right. MR. DECKER: The body is taken to Halifax. Cremation has proven to be a more inexpensive way of disposing of the body of a person. MR. PEACH: I think it is more expensive. MR. DECKER: It is more expensive when you have got to take the body to Halifax, by plane. But surely there should be some services in St.

John's and Corner Brook, or even in Gander, some central place in this Province for people whose wish, before they die, is that their body be cremated. It would be my wish, Mr. Speaker, on my death, that my body would be cremated because I have a little little bit of concept of the whole span of Ll953 May 15, 1986 Vol XL time, and the fifty or sixty years that a headstone is going to stay over Chris Decker is totally irrelevant when you compare it with the billionS- -of years that this planet is going to be here. So I would like for the Minister of Health (Dr.

Twomey), when he gets up, to address whether or not we are going to see very shortly in this Province cremation facilities, so that people who do not want to go to the · expense of paying the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) for a big funeral, or whatever the case might be, will not have to. I do not think it should be done. MR. YOUNG: Do not go to the viewing room, you hell, anyway. MR. BUTT: expense of a are going to There will be lots of fire where you are going. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to belabor this point. Obviously, I have given members something else to laugh about. .

That, in effect, helps make my day, when I say something which some people interpret as being extremely funny. I do not particularly think it is. I think I can contain myself quite well when I talk about it, because it is not funny. In conclusion, I just want to say, Mr. Speaker. let us as members, all of us on both sides of this House, ensure that the day will never come in Newfoundland when a funeral director, an undertaker, must be used. Let the day continue when people can use the services by choice, but let the day never come when people are No. 33 R1953

forced to use them. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank you for your attention, and I wish that members could see the seriousness in this bill which the Minister of Health is putting through. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Just a couple of questions, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure I understand the full implications of this bill, so could . the minister explain to us why it is necessary to have this amendment? What does it change in terms of what was previously the case?

I understand that the only thing this bill is doing, as I read it, is removing the grandfather clause. Now, why is it necessary to remove the grandfather clause? In most legislation, we insist that there be a grandfather clause. In this particular legislation I cannot see the purpose for removing the grandfather clause unless it is to ensure that the people now coming into the business are more professional, that they are trained with mortician courses and first aid courses, or whatever is related to the establishment of an efficient and effective funeral "home.

If ·that is the reason, well, I think we can possibly ·accept that. I do not know, then, what would happen to the existing people who are there. Does it mean that they will be closed up? Maybe the minister can address these concerns: Why is it necessary to have this particular Ll954 May 15, 1986 Vol XL piece of legislation now? Why the removal of the grandfather clause at this particular point in time,

whereas in most legislation there is always an attempt to insert a grandfather clause? That is my understanding. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Just to continue with my line of questioning, the question I have to raise is in the same realm as the whole question of licencing, but it is a little bit different. The member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush) asked some of the questions that I wanted to ask - Why are we taking the grandfather clause out now? - but I have another question with regard to the act and it is a little bit more broad. The question is essentially this: What is the · way in which you now would become licenced as a mortician in this Province?

In other words, what it says in there is, 'Every person who is not less than nineteen years of age and has compiled with the requirements of this Act and the regulations for the grant of a licence to practice as a funeral director may apply to the Registrar for and has the right to obtain from the Registrar · a licence to practice as a funeral director in the Province if the application is accompanied by the fee, ' etcetera. In other words, what I am asking is how · are morticians trained in this Province now? The reason I raise it is because there is

an act we passed with regard to another group, the opticians, namely, where we have given a particular No. 33 Rl954

organization the right to certify these people as being qualified practitioners, and there have been some questions brought to me about that particular act, the Opticians Act, as to whether or not the qualifications are fairly · established, whether the training courses that are offered are being .. w_idely enough available. whether there is being some discrimination on people coming in and so on. So my question on this particular bill, speaking to it in second reading, on the priciple is: How would you become a mortician in the future? Wherewould you take the courses, for example? Who is the certifying body?

Is there an association Canada-wide that will be certifying them? Do you have to go to a specific institution in another Province in order to take the training? Is it correspondence training? Is it on-the-job training with a qualified mortician? These are questions I think are probably answered in the regulations, and if the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) can indulge me by giving the information when he replies and speaks on second reading and closes this debate, I would appreciate knowing about it. Because there is a very serious matter that I think all legislatures have to take into account.

We probably have given the morticians society, or whatever it is, the right to limit people going into that profession, the right to establish qualifications for them.

I think it is very important that we keep a close eye on how the authority that we originally had, which was to regulate these things, has been given to other societies, and I think we should be very careful about how we give it to them and how they exercise it, that they do not, for example, limit the number Ll955 May 15, -1986 Vol XL of morticians in the Province, which would be a problem because then the morticians that are currently there could raise their prices and so on. Of course, I echo the member for Bonavista North • s conunents: Why do we have to take the grandfather clause out now?

I await the answers from the Minister of Health. MR. SPEAKER: If the bon. the minister moving the bill sp.eaks now. he will close the debate. DR. TWOMEY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you very ~ch, Mr. Speaker. I wish to thank all of you who have contributed to the debate on this particular bill. Many of you have taken this as an opportunity to express your views on death and· dying and I know that is a most intriguing subject matter when you sit and debate it, whether it is in the House or in the drawing room. As the bon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Decker) was speaking a few minutes ago, he reminded me that going back into history, death and dying has become famous in many poems. I think I can go back to the time when I was a schoolboy, and I read and learned the poem, The Death of Sir John Moore, and as he recited his experiences on death and dying and funerals, some of the words of the poem came back to me. Then I thought of other people who took a different view, I would not call it a macabre view. MR. DECKER: · No. 33 Rl955

Give us a few words from the poem. DR. TWOMEY: "Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note/ As his corpse to the rampart we hurried;" Anyway, they dug his grave with their bayonets and they did not have pomp and ceremony. You have psyched me out in asking for the words right at this moment. How I remember the poem of Charles Wolfe, "Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note, I As his corpse to the rampart we hurried;/ Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot/ O'er the gr~ve where our hero we buried./ We buried him darkly in dead of night,/ The sods with our bayonets turning." Sorry. That was a long, long time ago.

HON. MEMBERS: Hear, .hear! DR. TWOMEY: Then there are other ones that came. I thought of W. B. Yeats when he wrote his own epithet, and it is written on his tomb, ••cast a cold eye/ On life, on death./ Horseman, pass by. •• Then I tried, to remember - you spoke about the book of death and dying - about some I had read. I think that Graham Greene had written one that was very popular quite a number of years ago which prompted quite a number of people to emulate his style and talent. I think, as a result of that, there was a society formed, called the Memorial and Funeral Society.

I believe that it is a credible group across the whole of this nation. It gives advise to people who are planning their own funerals and L1956 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL this has been done by many people I have seen. I can equal stories - but I do not think we should tell them in the House - about experiences similar to the one that you have had about death and dying. This funeral society will help people in choosing their casket, arranging their funeral and discussing prices.

I have been aske~ what was the purpose of the amendment. - I think that most acts have in them an automatic, you can call it, sunset act or the grandfather's clause. It is usually after a period of six months that those who are entitled to be licensed or come under the auspices of the this particular act have to apply. If they do not apply within that period of time, they will be deprived of membership of that particular board. You also asked, Sir, as to how one can get training. I know that one can become an apprentice in st. John • s in one or a couple of the funeral homes.

I think if you have enough funerals per year or over a two year period, and this can be verified and you have done the course, then you are entitled to sit for examinations and if you pass the examinations you are entitled to be registered as an embalmer and/or a funeral director. MR. SIMMONS: Who sets the exam? DR. TWOMEY: It is set by the board and the board consists of certain members. There are two embalmers, two funeral directors and three other people. The three other people, we discussed it with the Memorial and Funeral P·lanning Society and they recommended two names or more. Two af these No. 33 Rl956

recormnended names are on this board. There is also one of our staff from the Department of Health who sits on the Board. The examination·! have told you about. There are a few other questions. I believe the gentleman for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) asked me what was the cost of a funeral that comes under the auspices of the Department of Social Services. I looked it up but I feel it would be unfair for me to discuss that subject matter since it comes under the direct responsibility of the Minister of Social Services. But I will give you a round figure. The figure, I would say, would ·be $800 to $900.

That is only my guess now. Because as I looked up the various costs: One, the distance from the funeral home to where the individual died; the picking up of that body and bringing it back to a particular area; whether the body is to be embalmed or not embalmed i whether the body is to waked in a church or in the funeral home; the size of the casket. Between five foot and six foot, there is quite a difference in cost. Also, there is an allowance for clothes for the individual who is to be buried. I do not think there was any other question asked of me.

If I have omit ted anyone I am sorry and I will take questions from the seats. MR. FLIGHT: Cremation. DR. TWOMEY: Cremation is a burning issue. I believe there is not a crematorium in the Province of Newfoundland at this particular time. I understand someone has an interest in establishing a crematorium. I understand it is going to be opened within the next few L1957 May 15, 1986 Vol XL months. about it. That is all I · can say I thank you all for your contribution and I would like to move second reading. Thank you.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act, 1975," read a second time, ordered referred to a Cormnittee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 22) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions." (Bill No. 24) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this is

an Act respecting an increase of certain pensions and it really implements an announcement made at the time of the Budget presentation. Hon. members will remember that the pension levels were frozen during the restraint period but now there is an increase being given.

There was a two year restraint programme put in place by this government and we indicated that to the public service unions, saying that as of the time of their last contract, after a two year period government would be in a position to discuss with them further increases, but during the intervening two years the situation was such that we felt we had to deal only with non-monitory matters, matters that would not be an extra cost to the public treasury. That meant that various public service unions came under the restraint programme at various times because their last contracts had different dates.

In terms of - No. 33 Rl957

our pensioners that period is now over so we are in a position to put in place some increases in pension benefits. The increase on a general basis will be 4 per cent, but there is a minimum, a floor, so that no increase will be less than $240 as a min~. That means that if a pensioner is receiving $6000, or less on a 4 per cent basis he would be getting less than $240. But if he is receiving a pension of $6000 or less he nevertheless will get $240 as a minimum increase in his pension. No pension being paid will be less than $2200. That is the minimum pension that any public service pensioner will receive.

I might add, Mr. Speaker, that we have 4000 former public servants and those individuals who come under the pension provisions laid out there in the

schedule to the Act and this increase will cost the pension fund about · $1.8 million. The cost of this increase, of course will come out of the pension fund which government set up, I think it was in 1981. Prior to that date pensions were paid out of the Consolidated Fund. In that year we set up a pension fund into which current contributions are paid and the government contribution, matching those current contributions, are also paid. I believe that the fund is now built up something to the order of $230 million. I cannot give an absolutely precise figure but it is something of that order.

So these pension increases, and of course all pensions now being paid, come out of that fund. Mr. Speaker, need to go I do not know if I into this in any L1958 May 15, 1986 Vol XL greater detail at this stage. It is some .thing that we are very pleased to do. We realize that former public servants have contributed and are reliant on these pension benefits. It is only their right . I suppose a pension benefit can be looked upon as a delayed wage benefit. It is a benefit they earned as a result of their employment in the public service.

Undoubtedly, many pensioners would like to have greater increases than we are able to give, but nevertheless our pension provisions match or compare quite favourably with similar jurisdictions and at least this increase will keep up with the. cost of living. So with those words, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few remarks about this particular bill, Bill 24, which puts into effect the pension increases mentioned by the minister in the Budget Speech. Mr.

Speaker, there is a lot that one can say about pensions and one certainly can appreciate the unfortunate circumstances, the unfortunate financial bind that many of our retired people find themselves in when they are on relatively small pensions. we have many people in the public service who retired on relatively small pensions. Of course, I suppose nobody gets any kind of a large pension, it is always a reduction in what one was used to No. 33 R1958

making. ___ They are always a percentage of salary, be it 60 per cent or whatever the particular individual qualifies for, so it is always a tremendous - adjustment when one comes from a salary to a pension. The real problem seems to be with pensions the lack of any systematic level of increases, and I believe, for example, that this might have been the first time that there was an increase in many of those pensions, maybe all of them, say for three or four years. DR. COLLINS: Two. HR. LUSH: The minister says two. Well, there was a two year freeze. Is the minister saying now that it has only been two years?

Well, if that is so that is certainly better news than I thought, because I have been under the impression that many pensioners had not received an increase for three or four years. That is certainly, as I say, a little better than I thought. In any event, it is certainly a small enough increase. I am sure that the pensioners will welcome the increase, as 1i t tle as it is, if it is two years since they received any increase.

Certainly that 4 per cent is not going to take care of inflation, not going to take care of the continual eroding of the dollar over the past number of years, since they received an increase. In any event, Hr. Speaker, we certainly support the bill and, like the minister, we certainly wish the amount could have been a little more, probably in line with the increases that the government is giving this year. I am not L1959 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL sure, but I suppose that probably falls within the range of the increases government is giving to its public service in these recent rounds of negotiations.

But 4 per cent, when they have gone two years without any increase, is certainly not going to be anything substantive. Kr. Speaker, we do support the bill, and the question I would put to the minister is what kind of · system is in place wj.th respect to pensions to ensure that the pensions, inasmuch as possible, keep up with the cost of living? t wonder if the minister can address that? I am sure the minister is as concerned about that for pensioners as we are.

What kind of system can be put in place to ensure that pensioners, people who have borne the h~at of the day, -people who are now beyond the working age, what sort of system can we put in place to ensure that the inflationary period that we are going through, the recessionary period, does not hit these people too hard, that these people can indeed make it on their pensions? Can the minister inform the House as to what system is in place? Is this at the whim of the government? Is there anything in place to ensure that every year, every two years, every three years there will be an increase?

Because, if we give an increase every year, then, that would certainly, if it is only 2 per cent, if it is only 3 per cent, be better than going three or four years and then giving a 3 per cent or 4 per cent increase. So I am just wondering if the minister can indicate whether there is some systematic method in place whereby these pensions are increased from year to year to sort of lessen the No. 33 R1959

financial burden of many of these . pensioners? And some of these pensioners are not all in the same position, some . of them are pensioned for different reasons. They are not all pensioned because they have reached the proper pensionable age, some of them have to retire prematurely because of health reasons and these people are placed. in a very difficult position because they have expenditures, hospital bills, this kind of thing.

So I am just ·wondering whether the government has in place any kind of system to ensure that the increases take place on an annual basis to help these people to be able to take care of their living in a much more effective manner? So there is that concern, Mr . Speaker, that the increases do not come too far apart, that they are almost on an annual basis. So if the minister can address that point. There is another point about pensions, generally, pensions funded by the government.

The Auditor General referred to this, I believe, back in 1981 and 1982 when he was concerned about the pensions funded by the Province; he was concerned that there would be too many demands on the pension fund in the future and that the funds would be inadequate to meet the demands that would be coming on the pension fund. As a result of th;;Lt caution, I believe, as a result· of that concern by the Auditor General, the government decided to set up an actuarial study just to see how adequate the four pensions funded by the government were, just to see how adequate they would be in terms of meeting future demands.

And I think it has been some concern of the Auditor General that maybe the government have been dragging their feet with respect to setting Ll960 Hay 15, 1986 Vol XL up this actuarial study. Now, I wonder if the minister can tell us just what is the status of that actuarial study and what time the House can expect a report on this study?

Does the minister have any information now that he can give the House and give the people with respect to the adequacy of the pension fund established by the Province to look after all of the needs that will be required in the near future and in the distant future, a little further down the road? Because again, as I said, we must certainly take anything that the_ Auditor General says about finances very, very seriously, and the Auditor General was indeed very, very concerned about the ability of the pension fund to meet all of the requirements that would be needed in the future. So if the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) ~an certainly address that question, what has happened to the actuarial study, whether indeed it is over, what time we can expect a report and whether he, indeed, shares the same concern as the Auditor General over the ability of the pension fund to be able to meet the needs in the future, and whether he can shed any new information on that situation today? With these few remarks, Hr. Speaker, I will finish just for the time being. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Before recognizing the hon. the member for Henihek (Mr. Fenwick) , I will read out the three questions for the Late Show.

The first question is to the Minister of Housing (Hr. Dinn) with regard to the NLHC units in Stephenville, and it is from the No. 33 Rl960

bon. the member for Menihek. The second question is from the bon. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker), who is dissatisfied with an answer given today by the bon. the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) , with regard to small schools and wishes to follow up the matter on today's Late Show. The third question is to the bon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) from the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight), with regard to the Conne River fishery. The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Just a couple of questions before I go into the more detailed argument I would like to make on this pension bill. Did the minister not say there were 4, 000 recipients of pensions? One of the points in question that I have often had thrown at me is that the MHA pension plan is much too generous and is therefore the kind of thing that should not be there. I have tried to give rational arguments to it. One of the questions that has been put to me is, How many former members of the House of Assembly are actually receiving pensions?

I am not sure if the minister has that information, but if he does not, I would not mind his taking it under advisement -and getting the information later. How many other former MHAs are in a position to have eligibility for pensions and are waiting until the appropriate time for it? The answer I have always given to people was that there is not really a lot of former MHAs drawing it and, even though it looks like a generous Ll961 May 15, 1986 Vol XL pension, very few actually in a relationship to it. people are beneficial The -other - question - is, is there. $230 million in the pension fund? MR.

MATTHEWS: You will have to wait a long time to get a pension from here. MR. FENWICK: I will repeat it, if I get his attention. There are $230 million in the pension fund? All HO!J. MEMBER: Right. MR. FENWICK: I just want to have some indication, when the minister responds at the end of the debate on it, as to where it is invested and to what purpose it is being put and so on. I know that some of the Canada Pension Plan is actually incorporated into the debt of the Province. I am not sure where this money is.

The other thing that I would like to say quite complimentary about the bill, because I am pleased to see that there is an increase in the pension - 4 per cent is not exactly keeping pace with inflation over the last three years since it has been frozen for two years, but it is certainly better than zero, which was the norm for the last two years. I think it is overdue that we did increase these pensions somewhat. Having said that, I would like to indicate that there are a considerable number of people who do work for the provincial government who will not benefit by this and can never benefit by this.

Of course, I am referring to the people who work for the Ho. 33 R1961

provincial government under contract, with contractors. That refers to the people, for example, who clean this Chamber in the evening and who clean Confederation Building and who do the same sort of cleaning in the vocational schools and so on. I was referring ~o the several hundred cleaners who work for the provincial government through contractors, on contracted-out work. It seems to me somewhat discouraging that these people, who do very hard and menial work, should be denied any of the benefits that we give to this long list of groups that are obviously being benefitted by this pension.

They include the public service in general and the hospitals. I assume the hospitals are covered by this - are they not? - this pension plan. Is the hospital pension plan being increased by 4 per cent, as well, by this particular act? · I did not notice it on the list. I am not sure whether it is there or not. Is it under something that I have not seen? Anyway, the minister can let me know if I have missed the place where these people are covered by it.

Nevertheless, the point that I would like to continue to make is that we do have a large number of people who are not covered by any pension plan at all, who work for contractors, who get the minimum wage, who get no sick leave, who have no group medical insurance, no group life insurance provided by funds that come out of the Legislature and who are working at a marginalized rate in society. I know this question has been brought up before and it is one that the member for st. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) has been very sensitive to, and he has actually Ll962 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL spoken in support of the idea that pensions should be provided for others in our society other than those who are civil servants and those working for large corporations. As a matter of fact, I would be quite interested to hear if the member for St. John's East is interested in pursuing that further, because I really believe that in Newfoundland and in Labrador we have a particular kind of work pattern. I think intermittent is the best word to put to it. Other people call it high levels of unemployment.

But the fact is, we end up with a large number of the workers in our society who work for a portion of the year and are unemployed for other parts of it, or who have long times of being unemployed. As a result, there is no large pension plan that covers these people. At the same time, we have other people working in marginal jobs, such as working in the local corner grocery store, in some cases making the minimum wage, in which the owner of the store himself it not in a position to provide a pension plan because he just does not have the resources to do it.

It seems to me we are leaving a large percentage of our population in a position where they will be living in poverty when they get to be retired. And I really think it is unconscionable of us to allow them to continue to be left outside the protection, shall we say, of a major pension plan. So I refer to those one, the people who for contractors who for the government, Ho. 33 two groups, are working are working and that R1962

includes all the cleaners here. By the way, it is interesting to note that if the cleaners you meet in the elevator in the evening, with the buckets and the trolley and everything else, was working at the General Hospital, they would be making over $8 an hour. with medical insurance to cover them, with a proper pension plan, and a whole bunch of other benefits. But because they are working here they get $4 an hour, and if they call in sick one day, they do not get any pay for that day. There is no such thing as a pension plan when they retire.

As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as job security, because in a year's time somebody else may bid for the contract. someone else may come in and these people get fired, they get ·laid off. AN HON. MEMBER: That is Tom Bursey for you. MR. · FENWICK: Yes it is, if that is the name of the cleaning company. I am not really picky whether i~ is Tom Bursey Cleaners, or it is Atlantic Cleaners, or Jet Cleaners or any of the other contractors, the concept is wrong.

Surely we are not so mean as a Province that we have to sweat our cleaners and tell them that they have to work for these minimum wages and that they have no benefits just because we want to save a few dollars here and there. I really feel that is an unfair thing to do to employees. Also, I do not think, in the long run, it is particularly wise.

I think most members were aware that when the contract switched over from one contractor to another there was a period of time, about a month, when the new people were being trained, that the cleaning was not being done as thoroughly and L1963 May 15, 1986 Vol XL as efficiently as by the previous people. I believe now it is up to standard, but there was that period of time when that occurred. So I would like both the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to address those concerns.

I know the Minister of Finance in previous times said that to do that we have to look at a pension plan for the entire Province. I think, maybe, it is time that we did look at a pension plan for the entire Province.

We have a unique situation here, with our high unemployment rate and our very interrupted form of working, and I think a pension plan that responds to those particular circumstances is very important for us to do~ _s_o_tbat we will__not have j~st a list of public employees who are well off, and people who work for large corporation who are well off, but that will look after people who have an intermittent work pattern and people who work for small employers. So with those comments and those questions I will sit down and allow the Minister of Finance, or whoever else wishes to address it, to speak. DR.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: If the minister now speaks, he closes the debate. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, hon. members know, of course, that pension is an extremely complex subject. I certainly do not profess to be an expert in it. It is one of my few areas of non-expertise. But we have a very large division in the No. 33 R1963

Department of Finance that deals exclusively with pensions. As I mentioned when I introduced the bill, I think our pension arrangements are not perfect, granted, but I think there is a very credible effort on the part of the provincial government. Now, to go into some of the questions that were raised: The bon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) asked what arrangement we have in place to try to ensure that pensions keep up with the costs that pensioners face? Well, the arrangement we have in this Province is that we bring in periodic increases. There is no automatic arrangement.

There are, in some other jurisdictions, certain automatic things; sometimes they are related to increases in the cost of living, sometimes they are related to increases in wage scales, sometimes they are related to formulae that are not really based on either of those but, nevertheless, there is an automatic arrangement. In this Province, and we are not alone in this, we have elected to keep that in our own hands and we make a decision each year, usually at budget time, whether there will be an increase in pension benefits, and, if so, what will be the level of that increase.

Except for the recent restraint period, the usual thing was that we gave a pension increase that was in line with the average wage increase · that was given in the public service. Now, I am sure you could argue for or against any system, but we feel that we have to keep control of the finances of the Province. We work on a pretty tight rein, and we feel that it Ll964 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL would not be in the best interest of the people generally if we put in some automatic arrangement that we had to stick with no matter what. We feel that it is in the best interest of the people to keep it flexible.

And, of course, even though in the recent restraint period there was no increase, that is not to say that at · other times there is not an increase greater than is given in the general wage situation. And I might add that that has happened in the past, particularly in regard to certain groups.

For instance, retired teachers, especially teachers who retired a considerable time ago, were on a very, very low pension entitlement and for a number of years we gave those teachers - you know, those who retired over, say, twenty years ago or whatever it was extra increases, a larger increase than we were giving to the general pensioner and a larger increase than we were giving in the wage increase. So I think that there is a value not only from the Provincial Treasury point of view but also from the groups of pensioners• point of view, to have it flexible .

Now, the bon. member also asked what about these actuarial studies. He is quite right in that there was an actuarial study done roughly ten years ago, I think it was, and then we decided to get into another actuarial study in recent years. We were not dragging our feet about it. We were getting into computerizing our pension administration, which was a very large undertaking, and that meant that it would have been unwise for us to embark on an actuarial study under the old method when, if we waited a while and got everything computerized, we would get the study done much No. 33 R1964

more efficiently. So we waited until we were reasonably well computerized and that has been done now. We have in large aspects of the actuarial study. They are being considered at the present time. We have not really ourselves, shall we say, taken all the information, or have not assimilated and correlated and understood all the information that came out of those studies, but we are in the process of doing that.

We have some officials working on the reports to get the essence out of them and to make it understandable for the politician, shall we say, and once that process is completed, we will be making the studies public, we will also be making our considerations of the studie~ public and our recommendations that flow out of those studies.

There is not much point, I suppose, in mounting studies unless it is to·some purpose, and we feel that those studies will give us some guidance as to how to handle our pension system. when they are made public we also be making public recommendations, or perhaps our decisions, on how we proceed in the future. So will our even will I think the level of concern was also brought up - are we concerned about the validity or the state of our pension system? Yes, we are, but we are not alone in this.

Most jurisdictions, and I would . say probably the whole pension industry, is concerned about how valid and how good and how well-based are the pension arrangements. So we are by no means alone in having concern, but we are concerned about it and, of course, that is why we do have these periodic actuarial studies. Ll965 Kay 15, 1986 Vol XL Now, the hon. member for Kenihek (Mr. Fenwick) asked about the MHA plan and he says that he has been told on a number of occasions it is too generous. I think we have to understand something about the MHA plan, and it is something related to being an MHA.

If you are an MHA, you are not an employee in the ordinary sense of the term, i.e. , you do not gef a job and expect to keep that job for twenty-five years, or thirty years, whatever it is - AN HON. KEMBER: I do. DR. COLLINS: PCs can look forward to that, but I am talking generally. - and get average increases and all that sort of thing. I think MHAs should think of themselves m~re, say, as the Armed Services or the Uniformed Services, i.e. , you are in a high risk situation, you may be there or you may not be there; you may be flicked out or you may come upon an unfortunate accident or whatever.

It is not a regular nine to five job so, I think, the MHA pension plan should· be regarded more in light of what pension arrangements are given for the Armed Services or the Uniform Services, that type of thing. If you look at it in that light, sure, the MHA plan is generous compared to the ordinary employment type of pension plan, but it is not particularly generous if you look at it in the light of how it compares to the Armed Forces pension plan or the Uniformed Services pension plan.

And, I might add, it is by no means extra generous if you compare it to the KLA plans or KNA plans, that is the elected persons' plans in other provinces. We are about in the middle somewhere; some people are No. 33 Rl965

better than us and some people are less well structured in that regard than we are. Some aspects of our plan are better than others and some aspects of our plan are worse than others, that type of thing. We are about in the middle there. The bon. member also asked how we invest our money. MR. FENWICK: I also asked the number of former MHAs DR. COLLINS: I do not have those figures but I can get them for the bon. member. He wants to know how many former MHAs are now actually drawing pensions and how many people are, shall we say, eligible for deferred pensions. I really do not have the figures.

I do not think there are a large number but I will get the numbers.

As to how the investment fund is invested, we have made some changes in recent times on that. our peri's ion fund was always handled by the Royal Trust but we had a feeling - and this is not to say anything against the Royal Trust - that we were not getting the best return on our investments from that particular organization so what we did was split off some of the pension fund and we put it into the hands of specialists, specialists in real estate, specialists in the bond market, specialists in other forms of investment and, in that regard, we are in line with how most jurisdictions handle their pension funds.

We are already seeing that we are getting a better return on our investments having gone that route and, of course, any better return we get ultimately will redound to the benefit of the pension fund itself. L1966 May 15, 1986 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: Can you give us a breakdown of where the money actually is invested? DR. COLLINS: our pension fund is invested in many, many respects and if I gave the bon. member a list of it, it would be a list about this long, we invest in this, this ··, this. I can get that sort of information, but I do not have it at hand. He also asked about the private pension plans.

We brought in awhile ago, largely under the leadership of the President of the Council, a Pension Benefits Act, and this was to regulate pensions in the private sector. Many other provinces had this and we were, maybe, a little bit ·slow in getting on the ball in that. our Pension Benefits Act is good. We have learned from how other provinces and other jurisdictions handled the matter. It is a matter that is under review in almost all provinces across Canada at the present time, to try to improve on the regulation of private plans. The idea is not to make private plans compulsory.

If you do that, you almost kill the goose that lays the golden egg. You want to come in there so as to encourage private pension plans but, nevertheless, not to let them run wild . You have to bring a level of regulation but without actually making them forcibly do certain things which would only ruin the whole situation.

I might add that part-time employees not only in the public sector but also in the private sector, are being given a lot of consideration now as people look at their Pension Benefits Acts to see if some arrangement can be put in place to handle the part-time employee, and I think that ·was a matter the hon. No. 33 R1966

-"- member was concerned about. Then he got on to our cleaners here. I can only answe