VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:30 P.M. FRIDAY, MARCH 30, 1984. NO. 14

March 30, 1984 Tape 518 PK - 1 The F.ouse met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Before we begin 1 it is a pleasure indeed for me indeed to welcome to the gallery five special education students and their teacher,Mr. Calvin Taylor, from the Fred Kirby Junior High School in Foxtrap in the district of Conception Bay South. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MD'ISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. Sm.IE HON. MEI<lBEP.S: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to explain to hen. members of this House of Assembly a change in the Newfoundland and Labrador student aid plan announced by my colleague 1the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) ,when he presented the proposed budget for 1984-1985. In September coming, the provincial government will introduce a deferred grant system which will not diminish cash available to post-secondary education students nor add to their ~epayment obligations later, but will lessen the financial burden on the Province in the short term by postponing some of the Province's liability.

The student aid plan comprises two components: First, loans which are provided under the national Canada Student Loans Program of the GoverTh~ent of Canad~; and, second, grants provided by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. The loan compenent is the same in every part of Canada but the grant component varies from province to province. And despite the fact that Newfoundland and Labrador is the poorest province, Mr. Speaker, the Peckford Administration continues to provide one of the most generous 1390

March 30, 1984 Tape 518 PK - 2 MS. VERGE: grant programmes in the whole country . SOME HON. M&~ERS : Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: statistics show that 1on average , Newf oundland and Labrador students receive the highest ~rants in all of Canada and leave post-se con dary institutions with the lowest debt load. In 1983-1984,the Department of Education paid almost ~10 million in non-repayable grants to students to help with university,college and vocational education. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS . VERGE: The deferred grant system will provide : just as much ca sh to students to subsidize the cost of education .

The change will require students to take as much of the aid for which they qualify as possible in the form of canada Student Loans before they receive any provincial governm en t gr ants. But any borro\-Tin g in 1391

March 30,1984 Tape No. 519 ah-1 MS VERGE: excess of what would have been required under the old system will be repaid later by the provincial government. Students will not have to pay back any more than they would have before. There are actually two bonuses for students, Mr. Speaker. First,students qualifying for deferred grants and,therefore,drawing more loans up front,will.receive more cash earlier in the school year or semester than they would have gotten before.

And 1 second 1when students finish school 1 whether they graduate or not 1 and become liable to repay loans, instead of having the Province's deferred grants applied directly against their loans 1they have the option of arranging with their banks to have all or a portion of the deferred grants cover required payments on their part of the loans outstanding to delay the commencement of their loans payments during the critical period after leaving school when they are struggling to get on their feet financially. So, Mr.

Speaker, as I am sure all han. members can see,the government of this Province will continue to pay just as much to students to help with the cost of studies at universities, colleges and vocational schools. However,some of the Province's payments will be deferred at this difficult time when the government is carrying a current account deficit. The deferred grant system is already working very well in the province of Manitoba 1 and officials of my department recently visited Manitoba's student aid office to learn from that province's experience. The deferred grant system was made attractive to the 1392

March 30,1984 Tape No. 519 ah -2 MS VERGE : provinces last year when the Government of Ca .nada raised the ceiling on loans students may take for any one year of study. Mr. Speaker, the idea of the deferred grant system was raised by officials of my department with the Student Aid Advisory committee, which comprises student leaders, a high school guidance councellor and a university administrator,as well as government officials , before it was announ ced publicly. The ' student leaders reacted quite positively . Mr .

Speaker, finally,! wish to assure all hon. members that not only is Ne~vfoundland and Labrador's student aid programme sound and generous , but improvements have been made to the administration of the programme to ensure that students' applications are processed expeditiously. The compliment of ?ermanent staff at the student aid office,which is in the Thomson Student Centre on the St. John's campus of Memorial University, has been increased . The number of Appeals Officers 1393

·" March 30, 1984 Tape No. 520 MJ - 1 MS. VERGE: was increased from two to three at the end of December, and there will be several more people taken on this May for the busy Summer period. For the Surr~er of 1985 there will be in place a computer system for processing applications which will almost eliminate manual handling. Computerizing the processing will shorten the waiting time for students after they submit their applications. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, actions speak louder than words and I need only point to the experience of the Newfoundland and Laprador student aid plan as evidence of this administration's commitment to affording every citizen of Newfoundland and Labrador the financial means to pursue studies at university, college or vocational school. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the applause is very weak for members there opposite for that kind of a statement, Mr. Speaker.

After being heralded on Budget Day by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) whose details we looked forward to getting as a great statement from the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), today we discover that the minister is telling the students that they are going to have to pay for the mismanagement and the incompetence of the administration there opposite. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the minister compares Newfoundland-to other provinces and says that we have the most generous student allowance, student aid programme, in 1394

March 30, 1984 Tape No . 520 ~- 2 M..~ . NEARY : the nat ion. That was true , Mr. Speaker, when the Liberals ><~ere in power . The fact of the matter is that student aid is dropping drastically in this Province.

I was at a meeting the other night with 170 students, men and women from all over Newfoundland and Labrador, and if there was one common theme with these students I spoke to the other niqht ,it was the fact that the student aid programme is in a mess, it is in shambles and that we were rapidly approaching the day in Newfoundland where you would have to be the son or daughter of a very wealthy person in order to get a post -secondary education at the university. That is t-lhat it is coming to, ~x . Speaker . The hon. the MUnister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) should have dedicated his record, Voices in the Nind, to the administration there oppo site because we just heard one of the voices in the ,.,ind, l·1r. Speaker . It is shameful. What they are asking the students to do now is go down and try to take advantage of fede ral programme s and ' we will pay later . Go now and the Province will pay later . It is something 1395

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 521 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: like the slogan Household Finance used to have, "Never borrow money needlessly, just when you must." This is what we are getting at, Mr. Speaker, there have been drastic cuts in student aid. The programme, Mr. Speaker, is being eroded, the aid is being dropped by the administration there opposite.

We can no lonqer boast in this Province that we are a Province >where young men and women, where the son and daughter of a taxi driver, a fisherman, a millworker, a ~ogger can sa~ "I can become a doctor or a lawyer, or I can become a professional person, a school teacher"like the .hon. gentleman." You would think, Mr. Speaker, one of the last programmes the hon. gentleman opposite me there would cut would be student aid, when I heard the hon. gentleman in this House stand up many a time and say,"If it was not for Mr.

Smallwood and the Liberal student aid programme free education in this Province,I would not be where I am today~' And now the hon. gentleman takes it out of the hides of the students 1 and t~e same with the sick people and people on social assistance. Sock it to ·them. Sock it to the students, the sick, people on social assistance, the ordinary person, Mr. Speaker. The ordinary person is what this is going to affect. Because the hon. minister knows that these changes are going to cause hardship for students in this Province. The hon. gentleman knows that.

The hon. gentleman gets up in this House and says, "I would not be where I am today if it was not for the free education that .Mr. Smallwood aQd the Liberals brought in in this Province~~ BR. TULK: He said that, did he? l·1R. NEARY: He said it. I heard him say it several tirres. And then when he wants to recoup sare of the deficit in current ac=unt, what does he hon. gentlenan do, the fellow who told us in Pert aux Basques 1396

March 30, 1984 Tape No . 521 NM - 2 MR . NEARY: had such a social conscience. "Social programmes," he said, "are the ones that we are going to look after because we have a big heart and we have a conscience ." Some heart and some conscience, Mr. Speaker! MR . SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The time for the hon . the Leader of the Opposition has expired . ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK : Mr. Speaker, I am not too \~ awake this morning,because the first thing I had to hear when I woke up was "Voices in the Wind" by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan). It was not bad, Mr .

Speaker ; The only is that the Minister of Fisheries does not seem to have any follow through in his singing any more than he does in the Department of Fisheries. But it was not bad. MR. NEARY : MR. MORGAN: in the past twenty years. MR. TOLK: button was. we can all buy a copy. I have set myself some records I thought that is what the I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries a question on the Bay Bulls seafood plant that was last year destroyed by fire - I would like to ask him, first of all,~ill it be 139 7 ..

March 30, 1984 Tape 522 EC - 1 MR. TULK: rebuilt? Has that company approached the government for assistance to rebuild the plant? And what effect will the absence of a plant in the community of Bay &ills have on the economy of the area in the coming inshore fishing season? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Mini 'ster of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the last time I talked with the company principals, they told me that they planned to rebuild the plant commencing this year; however, I understand they are presently awaiting the settlement on the insurance claim.

In the meantime~ they have asked us to support their request to the federal government to have what we call over-the-wharf sales, by means of having one or two foreign boats at the wharf in Bay Bulls this Summer so that the company can carry on operating by means of buying from the fishermen and doing some basic processing and having the fish then taken onboard the foreign vessel. I am of the understanding that the federal minister will indeed approve that.

The last time I discussed that with his senior staff in Ottawa, the understanding was they were-going to approve the over-the-wharf activity on the condition it was a temporary measure until the new plant is rebuilt at Bay Bulls. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: a supplementary. MR. TULK: The han. the member for Fogo, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister can he guarantee the community of Bay Bulls and surrounding area that indeed the fish plant will be 1398

March 30, 1984 Tape 522 EC - 2 MR. TOLK: rebuilt and at what time it will be rebuilt? And t.he over-the -wharf sales, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister can tell us how many jobs in the processing sector are going to be lost thi s year ? Can the minister tell us what effect that will have on the processing sector, the fact that it is over -the-wharf sales to a .foreign boat? MR . SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the ~linister of Fisheries . MR. t10RGAN: Mr . Speaker, obviously there will be a loss of jobs until the plant is again re -established in Bay Bulls.

It is a clear-cut situation where the company has advised all concerned they a.re going to build a new plant to replace the one that was destroyed by fi=e, the

section that was destroyed by fire, the groundfish operations in particular. And during that period they will have the over-the-wharf activit y, which ~<till mean a reduction in the onshore employment. Approxi~atel ~· .40-0 employees \vere employed by the Bay Bulls plant last ~ season. 1399

March 30, 1984, Tape 523, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: and I am sure that that many will not be employed as a result of the over-the-wharf activity, using a foreign vessel. However, there will be a number of employees from the Bay Bulls area employed in that kind of activity, but the exact number I cannot tell the hon. member or _.the House of Assembly at this time.

Again 1 I want to repeat, the last time I discussed the matter with my colleague from the area, and with the company, that las_t meeting we had, they indeed are planning to re~establish the plant and to commence work on that project in this construction season. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon~ the member for Fogo, a supplementary. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister is indeed the Province itself is going to be, or if they have been approached by the company for the Province to get involved financially and just how much the Province is being asked to put into that plant, and if indeed they have agreed to put anything in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, not from the company, Bay Bulls Seafood Products.

That company, of course, the same principals are involved as with Cape Pine Fisheries in Witless Bay and a couple of other locations on the Avalon Peninsula, there are a number of common shareholders. Last .. year we assisted that compc:rny financially and we still have an assistance programme in place for Cape Pine Fisheries, and, as I say, some are common shareholders, the O'Briens in particular. But there has b~en no request, no application made from 1400

March 28. 1984, Tape 523, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: Bay Bulls Seafood Products. We are of the understanding that su£ficient insurance was in place on the plant that was burnt, destroyed by fire la st yea .r, and they will be using the proceed s from that insurance payment to construct a new plant . MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER(Russell}: The hon. the member for Fogo, a supplementary. MR. TULK: Mr . Speaker , let me ask the minister somewhat of a new question perhaps tied to that, tied to the fact that that fish plant is no longe r there.

I understand that in the last week some of the plant workers in that area have been called in by their employer and told that their wages - and they are non­ unionized people - are to be cut by eighty cents an hour . I would like to ask the minister if he is aware of the fact that some of the smaller independent companies are now saying that they have to cut the plant workers' wages in order to sur vive ? Is he aware of that and is it in any way tied to the fact that the Rrocessing plants in that area are not operating at full capacity? MR. NEARY : Did you say cut by eighty cents an hour? MR.

TULK: Eighty cents an ho ur. 1401

March 30, 1984 MR. SPEAKER(Russell): MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 524 SD-- 1 The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker-, what the individual private sector companies do with regards to the wage packages for their employees, or the prices paid to the fishermen, that is the role of the collective bargaining process. Most of these plants are indeed unionized - MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: These people are not unionized. - the workers are unionized, they are represented by the fishermen's union, by the Newfoundland Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union.

And I would assume that anything of that nature, where employees are told to take any reduction in pay, that would be a matter for the union to take up with the employer. I will say, having just returned from a conference in Nova Scotia, that it is common throughout the Atlantic region this year that a number of the fish companies, those producing cod products in particular - and that isour.mainstay here in Newfoundland- are going to find it difficult to survive because of poor markets. The markets are very depressed at the present time.

High inventories left over from last year, fish not sold, range three-and-a-half to four times higher than what they were this same time last year. The inshore fishing season is upon us, it will be starting soon, and many of those companies will be involved in the processing of products from the inshore, mostly cod and groundfish, are indeed going to find it difficult to market their product, and especially when they have to market at depressed prices. An example would be this same time last year cod blocks were selling at $1.16 to $1.18 U.S. a pound, and now the price is $1.05 U.S. per pound.

That is a substantial drop. And therefore the marketplace - MR. NEARY: What about the plant (inaudible) 1402

March. 30, 1984 Tape No. 524 so - 2 · MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman asked the questions and I am try.tng to give the answer. If the industr y is going to survi've .based on an economic return from th .e marketplace 1 it may .be difficult for them to survive thi's year. And that was the major concern of a conference just convened in Nova s·cotia of all the participants .tn the region,wi'th the exception of the fishemen •·s Union,. they -di:d no.t attend , everybody else did, all the participants in th.e Atlantic region f.tshing Industry.

And some companies · may find tt di-fficult without some form of assistance. Now we do have an assistance programme for the compani'e.s and loan guarantees, We are :!;allowing through . t.hat programme ag ·ai .n this year for companies that mee .t the criteri-a and will meet the conditions that we set down. . We will provide f;i.nancial assi -stance to th .em, But . with regards to what wage package they will offer the employees 1 it is s·til1 a matter for negotiations between the employees and their employers through the fishermen•s Union .. !1R. TULK; .Mr, S-peaker. !1R.

SPEAKER (~ussell l : The han. member for Fogo, MR. TULK: Mr, Speaker, we on this side understand quite well che marketing problems that are being experienced in the fishery. As a matter of fact , we have been warning the government for some ti'rne, Is · the minister aware of whethe -l! in fact there was · a cut or th.ere is a potential cut of eigh .ty · cents per hour for some plant workers· in thi·s · Province? And is this the kind of measuDes that our processi'n _g sector 1 and im5ieed our fishemen perhaps as well can expect, espe .ci-ally in the inshore sector this year?

Would th.e ·minister a.nswer the ques·tion? ·- -- - ----- ~ -- ·, 1403

March 30, 1984 Tape 525 PK - 1 MR. TULK: Is the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan)- he cannot slough it off on the union- aware of it or is he not? Is this the kind of thing that our fishermen and our plant workers are going to expect this year, a cut in wages? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Would he answer the question? The han. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I earlier indicated I have no involvement in the setting of wage rates or the prices of fish. But I will say it is not to my knowledge.

I have met with most of the companies and I keep in touch with the fishermen's union, and we have no knowledge of any employer telling the employees they have to take a cut in their wages this year. MR. NEARY: your right. MR. MORGAN: As~ your colleague there to Now if any of the companies that are receiving financial assistance and whose employees are not unionized - and I will repeat that, non-unionized employees - - - - - - · well, I would say that if the employees are getting unfair treatment,we would have to talk to the companies-if they are getting financial assistance from us.

And 1 number two, I would urge these employees to get unionized; if they are not unionized to become part of the fishermen's anion. MR. NEARY: They tried to but . . (inaudible) . MR. MORGAN: The Fishermen's Union speaks as a strong voice, as one voice for all the employees. Most of the plants around the Province are indeed unionized. Negotiations will commence in the very near future with the large company, Fishery Products International 1 which will operate and own 1404

March 30, 1984 Tape 525 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: twenty-nine fish plants around the Province, • These twenty-nine fish plants, employing over 6, 0 0 0 people -~ are all unionized, and the union w·ill be negotiating with the new company in the very near future in the hope of putting together a collective agreement on wages for the plant workers, and indeed for the prices for fishermen. So any plant in the Province where the emoloyer is attempting to, I guess .

I will use the term 'to abuse' the >oJorkers by attempting to cut back their pay , if tnese companies are indeed getting any assistance from us, we will look into it and see why they would attempt to do such a thing if they are not unionized• !f they are unionized, I will be discussing with the union and see exactly what is going on. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The minister should speak to his colleague their to his right and ask him if wages have been cut in that area or not. It would do well to seek some advice from him. Let me move on, Mr.

Speaker, along the same line and ask the minister if in view of the --likely cuts in the inshore fisher~ and indeed the fishermen in this Province have already experienced a cut in real income, will the minister tell the House if he intends--and this is really his responsibility -to announce a programme to help inshore fishermen similar to the programme that was announced recently by his colleague,the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) to help hog breeders in this Provin~e~ ;I understand there was a sum of $1.8 million or .. something to help hog breeders in this Province.

Is the minister prepared or is he pushing in Cabinet to try and get some subsidization for the fishing industry in this Province,which ,is one of the resource areas the same as the hog breeders of this Province? 14-0 5 ..

Harch 30, 1984 Tape No. 526 NM - 1 The Minister of Fisheries. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, after all his time in the House of Assembly, my being minister for four years and the hon. gentleman being the 'op~osition spokesman on Fisheries for the last four years, he still does not understand where the jurisdictions lie with regard to the fishing industry. Now he stands and says, "What are you going to do to solve the problems of the inshore fishermen because it is your jurisdiction and your responsiblity to do something to help the inshore fishermen~" We have never had the jurisdiction, Mr.

Speaker, never did, never had the responsibility or jurisdiction to act, to deal with the problems of the inshore fishermen. But despite that we have out in place, through the Fisheries Loan Board, a programme of subsidized loans to fishermen in the vicinity of $16 million to $20 million on an annual basis foT the last four years. We have made outright grants to inshore fishermen in the vicinty of $1 million a year, grants not to be ·repaid called bounties, on their boats and equipment for their boats.

So we have programmes in place despite the fact it is not our jurisdiction, not our responsibility, We have no say over the licencing of fishermen, we have no say over the licencing of boats, we have no say over what type of gear they will use in these boats, we have no say over quotas in the inshore fishery, no say over the species they can catch. All of these things are the jurisdiction and responsiblity under the Constitution of Canada of the federal level of government.

But we have not abdicated our responsiblity with regard to lookinq after rural Newfoundland and doing the best we can to help the inshore fishermen. 1406

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 526 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, having said that,we have recognized for some time as a government here that unless there is going to be a viable return to the processors - i·1R. NEARY : Why do you not sit down? MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has asked a serious question~ I want to answer it in a serious manner. Now, Mr. Speaker, unless the companies can get some kind of an economic, viable return from the marketplace 1 they are not going to be able to pass it on to the fishermen.

And there are only two sources of return for the processing industry today; a return from the marketplace on prices they receive for their product sufficient to relay on better prices to fishermen, number one; or,number two, it is qove:rnrrent funds or qove:rnrrent subsidies. And ~overnment subsidies, these words 'government subsidies' ~ - are meeting with"some strong reaction from the US.

At the present time the International Trade Commission of the US has a major investigation 1 commenced as of the last month 1 to look at what they are terming too many government dollars in the industry in Canada and creating unfair competition for US fishermen. Now that is what is going on. As of last \'leek they are tying in other countries Iceland, ~orway and Denmark in particular- to look at their industry as _well ~ith regard to public sector dollars. But the word "subsidy" turns off the US fishing industry and fishermen in it particular. And what are they demanding?

They are demanding countervailing tariffs be put on our products going into the USA. And we all know what it would mean to our industry if that occurred. MR. TULK: Do not talk such nonsense; Jim. 1407 / ' / ./ { _ <._

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 526 MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, we are indeed proposing to the federal government, we are discussing with the federal government 1408 NM - 3 .....

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 527 MJ - 1 HR. MORGAN: a programme to put more money in the pockets of our inshore fishermen-Because there is a certain sector of our inshore fishermen who are indeed hurting,and the han. gentleman represents some of these fishermen along the Northeast Coast. It is the sector of the fishery with longliners thirty-five feet and above which only have the basic groundfish licence, usinq gill nets to fish and nothing else, no other licence do they have, depending on the groundfish. species solely,their income is not sufficient to make a viable return on their investment and operating cost.

Now to do that, Mr. Speaker, we are proposing a bonus system whereby the bonus system would do two things: It will be a transitional bonus system to put monies in the pockets -:>f fishermen to enable them and to give incentive to them to improve the quality of their product. If they do certain things like gutting and bleeding their fish at sea, washing and icing their fish at sea, we have put in place a programme of six cents j,:>er pound - HR. !-<TEARY: A point of order, ~1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, 9lease! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR.

NEARY: I have two books in front of me, the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly of Newfoun~land and Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules, Mr. Speaker, and both say that answers to questions should be as brief as possible and should not provoke debate. But the main thing is that they should be brief. Because otherwise the hon. gentleman is over there making a long-winded speech, a voice crying in the wind, Hr. S9eaker, and ITIY hon. colleague no doubt has a whole raft of questions he wants to ask the hon. gentleman. So I ask Your Honour to enforce the rules as they apply to that side of the House 1409

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 527 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: regarding answers to questions, Sir. f1R. MORGAN: order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Mr. Speaker, to that point of The hon. the Minister of Fisheries,to that point of order. MR.MORGAN: I was not being partisan, I was not getting involved in debate, I was merely passing on information which is of importance to the Northeast Coast fishermen, from Fogo Island in particular,along the Northeast Coast. However, Mr. Speaker, if the Opposition do not want to hear it,tonight I am speaking down in Twillingate, New World Island 1where ' I expect a fairly large crowd.

I will outline the programme there tonight on what we plan to do for the inshore fishermen. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Order, please! It now appears the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has concluded the answer to his question. It is correct 1 nevertheless 1that both questions and answers should be as brief as possible. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr.

Speaker, let me move on to a new question~ It is obvious from the minister's answers that what he is saying is that the fishermen have to pay for the state of the inshore fishery in this Province, for his own mistakes, that they can expect no help from this government 1 1410

March 30,1984 Tape No. 528 ah-1 MR.TULK: and,that he might as well as Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) in this Province,since he has no jurisdiction over anything,to lock his doors. But let me move on to another subject. The minister is aware that fishermen have lost income from herring, caplin and so on in the last few years. I want to ask the minister how serious a situation are we now getting into in terms of the inventory that we have in the crab fishery? And what affect is the imitation krab , that is spelled k-r-a-b, going to have on the prices of that product? MR.SPEAKER (Russe ll): The bon .

Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all when you say we have not got any jurisdiction, we did not have any jurisdiction,but because of the efforts of our Premier and his successful endeavors to have some say 1 we have more say - MR.TULK: Well 1you have it now,do you? MR.MORGAN: - we have more say now in the fishing industry than ever before as a result of a cr.ood agrement between two levels of government. smm HON. HEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR.MORGAN: Now, Mr .

Speaker, the crab fishery is a further reason for concern at the present time• I intend , next week in fact, Wednesday, if it is satisfactory to all the companies,to call a meeting of all the crab producing companies in the Prqvince 1 and to follow up with a meeting in New Brunswick on the 6th of April with my colleague over there ·8ecause these are the two provinces that are producing 1 411

March 30,1984 Tape No. 528 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: crab, New Brunwick and ourselves. There is a serious problem. The price of crab has dropped from $7.00 U::; a pound this time last year and now,at the present time, is down around the $5.00 US mark. 'L'i1at is a ~2.00 drop in price. There is an inventory of approximately b10 million pounds of crab not sold from last year's production 1 and that is a reason to be concerned. One of the basic reasons we find for it is this imitation pro~uct coming in fro~ Japan. Last year the us imported thirty million pounds of imitation krab product, not scallops.

Now they are going to be involved in imitation lobster tails, they are going to be involved in imitation scallop; imitation shrimp.And these kind of imitation products, simulated products coming in from the far East is , no question, having an adverse affect on the market for our genuine product. And right now we are looking at getting involved in the production of the same kind of product because the US figures that they are going to be importing fifty million pounds in 1984 versus thirty last year from Japan.

There is a market for it, it sells for approximately less than half the ~rice of the genuine product, and ·Ehe consumers are buying it. We are going to get involved in the production of this kind of a product ourselves this year on an experimental project,tying in with a crab processing company to try to market both products side by side in the US. But again,to answer the question,there is a problem 11Thich ~-;ill be addressed by meeting \·!i th the companies. I have met •·ri th some of tile buyers from the US, and have scheduled a 1412

March 30, 1984 Tape 529 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: meeting with the people in New Brunswick to see if we can all get together. The problem, by the way, as well, the very key problem - I have been saying it for years - is too much competition among the companies marketing their product in the U.S.A. There is not enough consolidation, there is not enough co-ordination. They are out there in competition with each other. And, Mr. Speaker, when we put together the restructuring agreement, the main part of the agreement was the marketing, we emphasized marketing throughout.

Now we are going to have a marketing organization, access to international markets by the marketing organi­ zation of Fishery Products International. Some time ago the independents were saying, 'No way do we want to get involved in one big marketing organization!' Already, Mr. Speaker, they see the benefits and they are corning to the company and asking the company to market their product for them, to get away from the competition out in the marketplace among twenty-five, thirty-five or forty companies.

So by meeting here with all the producers this week,and the week coming a follow-up meeting with my colleague, the minister in New Brunswick along the lines of his 'doing the same thing over there, hopefully by all the crab processing companies in Atlantic Canada getting together and arranging to market the product in a more co-ordinate way, we are convinced that the present inventory of crab that we have now will move over the next two or three months before there is a large crab production in the new season, and we are hoping the price again will stabilize upwards somewhere around $6 u.s. versus the $5 it is now and versus the $7 it was this time last year. 1413

March 30, 1984 HR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. TULK: Tape 529 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, the l'1inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is exactly right when he says that the artificial fish that is now being put on the market is taking over from the natural product. He is also right, I think, when he says that we are to establish in this Province a plant to make artificial 'krab'. I would like to ask the minister a couple of questions on that. Has the government con- tributed anything to setting up that plant?

And have there been any studies done that indicate what effect the setting up of that plant will have on the natural industry and the prices that our fishermen are now receiving? Because here we are,on the one hand, with the price in our natural crab fishery going down, the price being paid to the fishermen 1 and, on the other hand, we are setting up the artificial plan~ ourselves. Y-R. NEAF.Y: MR. TULK: In Clarenville. In Clarenville, yes. Have there been any studies done to indicate what the effect on the natural fishery will be and what the effect will be in terms of the price for fishermen?

Secondly, can the minister assure this House that both groups can exist - co-exist, I guess, is the right word- side by side? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there were studies done. There was one major one done by Industry, Trade and Commerce. Industry, Trade and Commerce in Ottawa did a fairly major study in co-ordination with us here. We co-operated fully in getting information to them, etc. So they did that study in conjunction with the industry 1414

March 30, 1984 Tape 529 EC - 3 MR . MORGAN : here and our Department of Fisheries . And, second ly, the federal department of DRIE put forward assistance to the company, Terra Nova Fisheries, which will be the company to establish the imitation product production line at Clarenville, 1415

Harch 29, 1984, Tape 530, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: I do not know the exact amount of funds, but I think it was well over $200,000. I should know, but I do not recall the exact amount. It is in that vicinity, two hundred-and some­ thing thousand dollars assistance from the federal Department of DRIE, as it is called now, to that company. We have not assisted, we have merely issued the licence and the licence was issued upon full consultation with the people in Ottawa who did the study and looked at any possible adverse effect.

The way it was analyzed was this: If we as Canadians do not capitalize on taking part of that market which is in the U.S. - there is a wide gap there, there is a big market for this product - if we do not take part of that market,the Japanese will take it all. Because they are going to expand on their production, they are going to expand on their exports to the U.S .. A., and we are going to take part of that market. So the present situation is that there will be two plants in Canada, one in New Brunswick and one here.

The one in New Brunswick, I understand, will be in production some time this Summer and the plan is - MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: It should not be in(Inaudible). Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman who asked the question is listening to the answer, and the hen. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) is again interrupting. Mr. Speaker, the two plants in Canada, I .want to term them experimental, because if we ever saw that it would hurt our own genuine production, or the genuine product production we would have to have a second look.

But right now we are convinced that both products can be marketed side by side, especially in this case, if the same company producing the 1416

March 30, 1984, Tape 530, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: imitation product is also involved in production of the genuine product. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if ~the government is really committed to seeing that what I would call the natural fishery and the natural production take place, one of the things that the government can do to show that kind of commitment is to make it mandatory that some of the restaurants and the supermarkets in this Province distinguish between the real product and the artificial product .

So let me ask the minister if he will, during this session of the House, bring in a piece of legislation that will force the shop owners,or the store owners, or the supermarket owners and the restaurants to distinguish on their menus and on their labels the real product as opposed to the artificial product? MR. NEARY: A good idea. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the . consumption of seafood products in our Province is practically insignificant to the overall total production even in our own Province , With regard to labelling it is an important issue, because just recently the Japanese government brought in place regulations governing the actual producer of the product, the processor., and are bringing in new laws to assure that it is clearly pointed out in their packaging of the product that it is indeed an imitation product, that there is no part of the product genuine. Because imitation crab, for example, does not -- -- --- ---- -- - -- -- i417

:; March 30, 1984, Tape 530, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: contain one ounce or any particle of the genuine product, it is strictly and totally imitation. 1418

March 30, 1984 Tape No.531 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: So the Japanese are, at least, using their law on the producer, the processor, and here in this Province we will do the same thing. We will ensure that the processor 1 in this case the one company 1will definitely have to clearly indicate in the labelling that it is not genuine ,is not even partially genuine, it is a total imitation product. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (.Russell) : of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. Leader Mr.

Speaker, is the han. gentleman aware that over in New Brunswick,where they have probably the biggest real crab producer in Canada, that they are pressing for labels to be put on cans indicating whether it is real or imitation crab· in the cans or in the packages, and that they are going to try to persuade the Government of New Brunswick to put on the menu whether the crab is artificial, imitation,or real? Now, Mr. Speaker, my colleague asked a very valid question.

If Nova Scotia will do it, Newfoundland will do it, PEI will do it and New Brunswick will db it,then why would it not be successful, why would it not protect our industry? Is the han. gentleman so ~n­ thralled and wrapped up in yodelling and singing cowboy songs - 1 Lady be Kind 1 • He should be singing 1 Voters be Kind 1 - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair recognized the Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Neary) for a supplementary question. He is certainly getting into the realm of debate and issues that are not =ncerned with this particular topic . ·I would ask him to direct a specific question. The han.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what I am asking -·- - -~ . - - - - -- -- the han. gentleman is v.ould it not be in the interest of t.'le 1419

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 531 so - 2 MR. NEARY: crab industry, the processors and the crao fishermen in thls Province, to collaborate ~vi th the other Atlantic Provinces to try to bring about this policy, this gre.at principle, this Liberal reform that we are pushing here about putting labels on the cans indicating tvhether it is imitation or real crab/ and doing the sa.me with the menus in the restaurants? Would ~~at not help our industry, to protect the processors here and the fishermen here or is the hon. gentleman just a voice crying in the tvind? MR, SPEAKER CRussel 'll.: The hen. Minister of Fisheries . MR .

MORGAN: Mr . Speaker, better te be a voice in the wind than a voice in the wilderness , which is. what the Leader of the Opposition (}1r. Neary I is thes-e days. Mr. Speaker, the non . gentleman does not seem to understand the issue at all. . First of all , the imitation product is not being canned, 1420

March 30, 1984 Tape 532 PK - 1 ~1R. MORGAN: none in the world being canned. That is one thing. And, secondly, Fisheries has nothing to do with the labelling with regards to the product being imported by any country. And right now the product is being imported by Canadians. It was brought into Nova Scotia last week, and across the country, up in Ontario and Quebec in particular, the imitation product from Japan. And it is the country where the product is being produced which will have to set down laws to control what that packaging says on what is contained in it. SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR.

MORGAN: Oh, oh! You have not got a clue. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman asked the question, let me answer it. Let me teach him something of what is going on in the fishing industry, because obviously he does not understand what is going on. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that what is being brought into the U.S. today in packages and bought up by the food service outlets across the U.S., what they sell to the general consumer in the food service outlets across the U.

S. cannot be determined by the producing countries, cannot be determined by the department of fisheries, the primary producing departments responsible in this case, but has been determined by regulations regarding the food service outlets and food and catering services throughout North America.

In this case, from the last time I talked with my colleagues a few days ago in Nova Scotia and P.E.I. and these places, the product is coming in from Japan, brought in and being promoted across Nova Scotia - I would assume it will be here on the stands soon - and the labelling on the packaging on the stands for the consumer is clearly indicating, as a result of Japenese law and regulations, that it is clearly an imitation, it is indeed an imitation product. How much 1421

_,. March 30, 198 4 Tape 532 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: further can you go? If it is imitation,it is imitation . It is not real, it is imitation . MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please ! The time for the Question Period has expired . ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion , the hon. i-~nist~r of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act Re specting The Commission Of Offences Against The Laws Of The Province By Young Persons", carried . (Bill No . 11). On motion , Bill No . 11, read a frist time , ordered read a second time on tomorrow . On motion the House resolve its elf into Committee of ~e Whole on Supply , Mr . Speaker left the Chair . 1422

" March 30, 1984 T:tpe No. 533 NM - 1 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! We are discussing a resolution pertaining to Bill No. 10, Interim Supply. The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I just thought I would rise at this time to take the opportunity of wishing all members of the House a Happy New Year. This is New Year's Eve, the new fiscal year starts tomorrow. This is the end of the old year so I would like to wish hon. members a happy new fiscal year co~ing up.

We have been finishing off 1 shall we say,the old year for a little while, we are about to go into the new year,and 1 to go into the new year the government needs funds. If the government does not have any funds,of course we cannot carry out the necessary servicing that the people of this Province elected the members of this House of Assembly to arrange.

They elected members of the House of Assembly overwhelmin~ to this side, in their wisdom, and arrangements to have those funds available for the necessary services, and,of course,to pay our bills and to pay our salary bills and so on and so forth. 'But no matter how well we arrange things,we do have to have the vote in the House and to some extent to a not in- - I considerable exten~ that is in the hands of the Opposition. We brought in an Interim Supply Bill to allow us to continue operations of government whilst the main estimates are debated at some length. 1423

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 533 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: We have be en on the Interim Supply Bill for some time now. Time is running out in terms of continuing the authority of government to spend public funds and I am sure that the people of this Province are expecting that government services will continue. They are expecting we will be able to pay our bills and we will pay our bills. They are expecting that the public servants and their families will not suffer in any way because there is any ~ oldup in our authority to expend public funds. Now as I mentioned, Mr.

Chairman, the main estimates are down and ,of course ,the funds related to the Interim Supply Bill are related to the headings and sub-headings in the main estimates. I have given the Committee some information on what the Interim Supply Bill covers, the particular items including some ongoing operations of government, but in addition to that some very necessary capital expenditures. Those capital expenditures are particularly to allow work to be done in the Province which might be held up if we wait for the main estimates to come down.

Now it is regrettable that even though we spent a considerable number of hours, as a matter of fact I am informed that we spent nine hours now, nine hours out of the amount that is left in the Committee of the Whole and in the House in debating the main estimates, there is nine hours out of that gone on the Interim Supply Bill. And 1of course 1 hon. members know that there is considerable numbers of hours allotted to various estimates committees which deal with specific departments. 1424

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 533 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: But,anyway, during that nine hours debate,I do not think the Opposition really asked any questions. I do have further information available, if anybody is interested, on the contents of the Interim Supply Bill, or what the funds in the Interim Supply Bill relate to,and in particular perhaps the capital side of it. There does not seem to be much interest on the other side in terms of the capital works that government is able to carry out. The only question I think of any specificity that did come up, and that was pretty broad, was in regard to the public debt .

It might be just of interest to the Committee, as they do not seem to want to get into other things in Interim Supply, but it might be of some interest for the Committee just to note that the Nova Scotia budget came down the other day and it was interesting reading. I think the deficits in the Nova Scotia budget perhaps would be of interest to the Committee. It is unfortunate that our sister province is having a tough time of it budget-wise. They have sizeable budgets.

As a matter of fact 1 in 1982 /83 the deficit on current account in Nova Scotia was 11.2 per cent of their total expenditures was related to a deficit on current account. 1425

March 30, 1984 Tape NO. 534 MJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: Our deficit on curr8nt account was 3.1 per cent that year ,whereas No~a Scotia's was 11.2 per cent. In 1983-84- now these are revised figures because, of course,it takes a little while before the actual figures c?me in, they come in the Public Accounts these are almost certain to be pretty accurate - in Nova Scotia · which had a deficit on current account of $232.1 million , added up to 9.7 per cent of their total expenditures. Nova Scotia last year, 1983-84, 9.7 .per cent of ·:their total expenditures was related to their deficit.

In that same year ours was 3.9 per cent. So considerably less than half of ours, in relation to the percentage of the budget,related to our deficit. And in 1984-85, as I mentioned earlier the new budget is down now in Nova Scotia, they are projecting a deficit of $194.3 million on current account,which is 7.5 per cent of their total expenditure estimates. Here in this Province ours is 1.8 per cent. Our deficit will be l. 8 per cent. HR. B.i\RRY: Does bhe minister have the per capit- directly for Nova scotia? DR. COLLINS: No, but one could easily work it out.

Their population is something like 900,000 1 ours is roughly two thirds of that, 600,000. Go you could easily work that out and that would mean that the Nova Scotia defici~no matter which way you look at it, as a percentage of the total budget, on a per capita basis, on a dollar basis, no matter how you look at it their deficit is considerably more than our deficit. HR. BARRY: debt (inaudible). DR. COLLINS: The accumulated per capita Well,of course,you have to decide how far you want to go back. I do not know if one would want to go back to the Ice Age or whatever and tot up the 1426 .::-

March 30/ 1984 Ta pe No. 534 MJ - 2 DR. COLLINS: amounts. All we can sa y on that is that the per capita debt in Nova Scotia is escalating very rapidly in the last numbers of years, The escalation factor is much more rapid in Nova Scotia than in this Province. As a matter of fact 1 it will not be very long by the way things are going- I mean,this is a projection on my part but I think it is a reasonable type of calculation - it will not be very long before the Nova Scotia per capita accumulated debt will be similar to ours,because we have a cap on our deficit

whereas the Nova Scotia one 1unfortunately_- and I do not say this with any glee our sister provinc~ I just point out the facts - of ~ the Nova Scotia deficit seems to be escalating very rapidly indeed. So, Mr. Chairman, as I say 1I do wish ithe hon. the members of the House a happy New Year in prospect of tomorrow being the first day of the new fiscal year,and I trust that we will finish off the old year in a very expeditious manner shortl y . MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward} : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr . Chairman, The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Chairman 1 I thought that when the hon. gentleman rose to speak that he was going to offer Newfoundlanders and Labradorians congratulations on thethirty-fifth anniversary of Confederation. At one stroke before midnight tomorrow night 1Newfoundland will have been a province of Canada for thirty-five years 1 and I thought that the hon. gentleman, who is so anti-Canadian and such an anti-Umfederate/ would stand toda y and say,~ongratulations 1 Newfoundland and Labrador,I am a proud Canadian.' ~1r.

Chairman, that ~.,rill be the day when you can get the hon. gentleman to stand up in public and admit that he is a Canadian, either he or his colleague 1 the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall}. Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman 1427

March 30 , 1984 Tap e No. 534 MJ - 3 ~m . NEARY : is a red-headed Tory ,there is no doubt about that. If there is an original red -headed Tory in this Province ,it is th e hon . gentleman, ~tr. Chairman . I hope I see him down to the Confederation Gala on Saturday night with his tux on, Mr . Chairman, and come out and show the people of Canada how grateful the hen . gentleman is for the peo ple of Canada provid ing 50 per cent of the hen. gentleman' s budget . Fifty 1428

March 30, 1984 Tape 535 EC - l MR. NEARY: per cent of the han. gentleman's revenues come from the Government of Canada, from the people of Canada. Not a word in this House about the over $1 billion directly paid into the public treasury! Directly, more than $1 billion paid directly, cheques issued to the minister, given to the minister by the Government of Canada! Not a word about that in the han. gentleman's estimates or in his remarks or in his statements that he makes in this House. So, Mr.

Chairman,let the han. gentleman swallow his pride, let the han. gentleman put aside his bigotry and his prejudice, let the han. gentleman get up and congratulate the people of Newfoundland and Labrador for fighting against his kind so that Confederation could win the day, and stop acting like a beggar knocking at the door of this House, looking for Interim Supply.

Because that is what the han. gentleman sounded like this morning, sounded like a beggar knocking at the door of the House: 'Please, House, may I have Interim Supply?' Well, let me say to the hon. gentleman that he will get Interim Supply when we are good and ready. ~tr. C~airman, they could have had Interim Supply ten days ago; they could have had it in the first hour they brought the bill into this House if they had been willing to change their policies and change their direction. Their policies have been so wrong, and their direction has been wrong.

They have recorded nothing in recent years but one failure after another. They cannot point their finger to one success, Mr. Chairman. So we will keep debating this as long as we can so that the message will get out to the people of this Province that we are interested in the fishery, that we are interested in an offshore agreement, . 1429

March 30, 1984 Tape 535 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: that we are interested in creating jobs for young people, that we are interested in Labrador. The only mention in the hon. gentleman's Budget Speech about Labrador was one reference, one sentence. Labrador was mentioned once. Mr. Chairman, we do not like the attitude and the behaviour of the administration and we are going to dig in and we are going to fight for change. We are going to fight for the people of this Province. We are not going to play little political games that we see played by hon. gentlemen there opposite every day.

I have here in front of me a Review of the Newfoundland Economy in 1983 and.Prosuects for 1984 that the hon. gentleman has been sitting on and keeping secret, refused to table in this House. Well, we have managed to lay our hands on a copy of it. We have all kinds of brown envelopes turning up. DR. COLLINS: That was made public about four months ago. MR. NEARY: It was not made public, Mr. Chairman. I have it here in front of me and I will be reading it on the weekend. I was browsing through it - nothing but doom and gloom in it, Mr. Chairman.

For example, in the fishery - the hon. gentleman was the author of this: 'Prepared under the authority of the hon. John F. Collins' -'In the fishery, preliminary estimates indicate a decline of 5 to 10 per cent in total landings last year.' Mr. Chairman, that is not a very bright outlook. And you can go right through the whole report and find nothing but doom and gloom in that report that has been kept secret, kept hidden from the public, kept hidden from the House by the hon. gentleman. 1430

March 30, 1984 Tape 535 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, you can tell when an administration is on a downslide, she gets as leaky as a basket! The brown envelopes in your mailbox and under your door and the phone calls and the anonymous letters start pouring in, and they are pouring in now. So she is as leaky as a basket! One of the things that carne to my attention recently I have to bring up, Mr.

Chairman, in view of what happened yesterday when the Premier and his party and myself were in Port auxBa~es for the opening of the hospital, I was told on the way back, and I did not have to be told on the way back because I knew it already and raised it in this House, that when the Premier announced a boycott of EPA,and when they grounded the King Air aircraft and tried to leave the impression in this Province that they were not going to abuse or misuse the aircraft anymore, Mr. Chairman, I was told that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), who goes horne to St.

George's every weekend, charters a Navajo plane to St. George's every weekend, charters a Navajo plane from Labrador Airways, at an expense of $1,600 each charter, and that is charged up to the taxpayers of this Province to get the hon. gentleman horne every weekend. Are hon. members aware of that, Mr. Chairman? AN HON. MEMBER: Do not be so foolish! MR. NEARY: What do you mean, 'Do not be so foolish'? Go out to Stephenville and ask the people. The Navajo comes in with the hon. gentleman aboard every Friday evening going horne and $1,600 is the cost of the Charter. 1431

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 536 so - 1 MR. CARTER: Who are you talking about? MR. NEARY: I am talking about the Minister of Transuortation (Mr. Dawe) . DR. COLLINS: No insinuations~ MR. NEARY: No insinuations, Let the hon. gentleman table the information to this House about the chartering that has been going on right, left and center in the last year since they grounded the aircraft. Now what are they doing? They are hiding the cost now in each department. Now when they want to go somewhere they charter a Navajo from Labrador Airways - $1,600 to go to Stephenville.

And then the other crowd who want to go home on weekends are using what they call the LFY, which is an aircraft bought for aerial photography for the forestsof this Province. And then the hon. gentleman has the face to get up and say that we did not ask any specific questions. Well 1 we want to know why they are continuing to misuse and abuse their ministerial privileges, Mr. Chairman, and abusing aircraft? Let them table the logs of all the times they have gone aloft and how many aircraft they have chartered in the last year and the purpose of the charter and who was aboard the aircraft.

I said to the Premier yesterday down in Port aux Basques, 'Do you have a vacant seat so I can get a ride back with you?' Because I would consider that to be a legitimate trip he made yesterday. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Yesterday he and the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) --- -- -- went do~m to open the hospital. Do you know what he told me, Mr. Chairman? He said, 'Ask Frank Petten. qo and ask Frank Pet ten •· . HR. DOYLE: Naturall;y. He did not know how many seats were available. 1432

March 30, 1984 Tape No . 536 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: He did not know! Well 1 she left stephenville - I was in the airport - she left Stephenville with six empty seats. I am not complaining, I am here toda y. He did not expect to see me in my seat today. DR. COLLINS: In any case you are not supposed to be lashing around in planes paid for by the Province. MR . NEARY: No, that is right, and that is what I am saying. But I happen to be the Leader of the Opposition& I have the same status as the han. gentleman has.in case he does not know it. DR. COLLINS: You were a MHA going to your district. MR.

NEARY: I certainly was not. I was invited out for the opening of the hospital ,the same as the Premier was, by the board in Port aux Basques. The han. gentleman , in his simplicity and in his ignorance 1 may · not be aware that I have the same status as a Cabinet Minister. But, Mr, Chairman, I did not want to abuse or misuse the aircraft. They happened to have the aircraft there waiting; she was corning this way, I wanted to get home last night, my wife is not feeling well,and I wanted to be in the House today, The hon. gentleman went out the door, ignored me.

But he should have been around to hear the comments of the people in the airport after they took off with their little party on board. They did not want me to see what was going on. He will be around a long time before I ask him again to give me a lift. Then I got aboard of EPA and went over to Halifax and carne horne from Halifax last night , >Mr. Chairman, because I wanted to get horne. But that is the kind of ques ·tion the hon. gentleman should address· himself to, never mind getting up and begging and trying to chastise the Opposition. MR . CHA "I'RMAN (JI.y· lward) ; Order , please~ 1433

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 536 SD - 3 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwardi : The hon. member's time has elapsed. The hon. member for St. John's Centre. DR. MCNICHOLAS: Mr. Chairman, I have been listening to the debate on Interim Supply for the last week, but some of the time I was wondering,when I was listening to the Opposition, exactly what the debate was all about, In ·fact, I thought I should have a few words mvself today on the Irish question, it is certainly as relevant as a lot I have been hearing over the past week or so , but I think maybe I should confine myself to Interim Supply on the budget time.

I would like to congratulate the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) on his budget. I think all of us 1 when we heard. the province-wide speech . of the Premier the week before 1 were expectinq a pretty rough budget with increases in sales tax and income tax and a drastic reduction .i.:n services. I know we were all amazed to find that the Minister of Finance could arrange the finances of the Province in such a way that we came up with, in the ci:rcumstances 1I should say with a very reasona.ble budget.

The main thing that upset me about the budget was that we did not have more money for welfare recipients 1 particularly the old people. And that was brought horne to me 1434

March 30, 1984 Tape 537 PK - 1 DR . MCNICHOLAS: from going around in my district.I make a habit,when I get a call from one of my constituents ,to follow that call with a personal call myself as soon as I possibly can. I must say I have been appalled by some of the poverty and the poor conditions that some of our people are living in. I know that is a very small minority,but I would like to see that ~spect taken care of in a better way. But I do .not think there is a L • - •.- ' bette·r -!.Unister in Canada than our !-linister of Social Services (i'lr. Hickey) . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

MCNICHOLAS: With the small amount of money we have,he is doing a very good job, but I just hope that we can get more money in the interim until we have better conditions in Newfoundland. There is another group also that I think we should try and look after in a better way,and these are the young married or unmarried women with small children. Again these are the people that I have gone around to see and I have been appalled at the poor circumstances in so many of these households, They find , it very, very difficult to manage.

You might criticize some that they are poor managers,but they are doing the very best they can. Some of them are not by any means poor managers, but they have a pretty tough time. The offshore has been on all our mindsp I think it is a tragedy what has happened and what is happening. A lot of our critics are not very helpful in that way. I was just amazed to read in The Daily News ,I think it was the morning bef~~ last !- th _e_ .9~~ ents the _Mayor _of _ s_t.J c:_~ ' :'l; made at a luncheon meeting, I think at Kiwanis, about the offshore. Now I am not criticizing the Mayor as far 1435

"" March 30, 1984 Tape 537 PK - 2 DR. MCNICHOLAS: as the job he is doing for St. John's. I think he is doing a very good job and I give him every credit for··that. But I heard him two years ago speaking at Rotary about the offshore, and from what I read there the day before yesterday· on what he said to Kiwanis, I think he ' had better confir .e his activities to looking after the City of St. John's. He had a new angle on the offshore. He said it is not Newfoundland's, it does not belong to Canada, it does not belon~ - to anybody 1 it is international.

So I suppose if the Mayor were Minister of Energy we would have Russians, and Japanese and Chinese rigs out there drilling for oil. I think it is,again 1 unfortunate that we have had two court decisions against us. Our own Newfoundland court who admit or agree that the resource is ours but because of a quirk in history we did not lay claim to it. Our Surpreme Court 0f Canada have now said that we do not own the resource at all. We will have to go along with what the Supreme Court of Canada has saysbut that is not the end of the matter. That is the legal

interpretation and the obvious reply that we will have to get a political solution to that problem. Not a solution that the Opposition want, although I have noticed quite a change in the attitude of the Opposition in the last week or so* I think it is since my erstwhile friend for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry)- I beg your pardon, I will withdraw that - my erstwhile colleague from Mount Scio went across, I think he is trying to educate the Opposition to the necessity to have some management control and to have a fair shake from the proEer reward from our own •. . _ __ J __ resource that we brought into Canada.

And I can see that he is beginning to convert the Opposition to that way of thinking, so much so as that now they want to join the bandwagon and 1436

March 30, 1984 Tape 537 PK - 3 DR. MCNICHOLAS: come across Canada to try and keep an eye on the Premier and the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall). 1437

.. March 30,1984 Tape No. 538 ah-1 DR. McNICHOLAS: I would like to just have one or two words to say on what is happening in the medical field as it relates to the budget. I am very pleased to see that we are beginning to have a change in the hopsital set-up in Newfoundland. We have been very well served by the cottage hospital scheme that has been here for I do not know how many years , since long before Confederation.

Now we are switching to ne'lil :.1ospi tals -in key areas, such as the one that was opened yesterday, the one that is being constructed in Clarenville and the one that is on the drawing board for Burin. I think this is a move in the right direction. We will have to have what we call in the medical profession tertiary care in the larger centers such as St. John's and Corner Brook and Gander and Grand Falls. I would like,though 1to mention an approach that I think we will have to make in the near future.

We are getting overcrowded with general practitione~s in the built-up centers and we do not have enough of general practitioners in the outlying areas. I would like to suggest to the Department of Health that they will have to improve their incentive 1 to increase the payment to doctors to go to outlying areas and to keep the populated areas at a standstill or with a relatively less increase. I am very concerned that we are not getting enough specialists back here in Newfoundland. I do not think we are.

I have been speaking to quite a number of them personally myself, and quite a number of them are not keen to come back here. A lot say, well, the doctors are making too much money 1 and that may be so,but the fact of the matter 1438

March 30,1984 Tape No. 538 ah-2 DR.McNICHOLAS: is there are greener pastures elsewhere. And we will have to encourage them to come back 1not just paying them more but to give them better . facilities to work in in the hospitals: MR.CHAIRMAN (A ylward): Order, please! elapsed. DR.McNICHOLAS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. CALLAN: The han. member's time has Thank you. The han. member for Bellevue. Thank you, Mr.Chairman. Mr. Chairman 1I want to continue on from yesterday afternoon when I was speaking at 5:30 when the Late Show arrived. The member who just took his seat, Mr.

Chairman, is on toa good topic, I believe, He is talking about the specialists who are forced to leave this Province, forced to leave this Province because of the treatment that they are receiving from this callous government , Mr. Chairman. I have some involvement personally of at least one specialist who has left. As a matter of fact, Hr. Chairman, I came into St. John's yesterday morning and went back out to my home town again and came in again to be here at 3:00 o'clock when the House opened.

I brought in my own daughter,who is crippled with rheumatoid arthritis , can barely get around the house, and here she has to wait until I think it is the 22nd of May before she can get to see a specialist 1 because the last one that she saw a year ago is no longer in the Province. And they are very, very few and far between, specialists in that field,in this Province. And as the: member~who just took his seat said, of course, a lot of the specialists and a lot of the medical 1439

.., March 30,1984 Tape No. 538 ah-3 MR .CAIJJU~: people are leaving this Province for greener pastures. But I co not want to dwell on that, Mr. Chairman. I would like to talk about the other actions of this callous government. I want to talk about how this government-and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook ) is in her seat- r want to talk about how this government is making municipalities around this Province scapegoats for the government .! will just take my own town, Mr . Chairman, as an example, and there are dozens and scores . But even in my own town , for example, last year the town council in Norman's Cove and Long Cove 14 40

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 539 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: received a $50,000 grant -I do not think it is even a grant, I think it is a loan­ to do a couple of artesian wells. That is what they got when they asked for water and sewer, when they asked for several million for water and sewer-they got $50,000. 1\n awful lot of people in the Town of Norman's Cove -Long Cove, a population of approximately 1200, I would say the vast majority of people do not realize what is happening with the Town Council, and,as a matter of fact,even some of the town councillors I do not believe are aware. The mayor is. But, Mr.

Chairman, in order to be able to avail of that $50,000 loan last year,which they probably could have gotten from any bank or somewhere else just as cheaply -I do not know why they accepted it from the government, from Municipal Affairs - But in order to avail of that,what did they have to do, Mr. Chairman, what did they have to do, the town council? They had to sign a paper to be sent back to the Den~rtrnent of Municipal Affairs whereby they said that in return for this commitment from qovernment -this huge commitment, which is funny -in return,for that we promised to implement higher taxes.

They ,'may not have to do it this year qr · next year but down the road they are committing themselves, says the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook), to raising the taxes in the municipalities. ~hey must implement proper taxes. Now, Mr. Chairman, you contrast 1441

March 20, 1984 Tape No. 539 NM - 2 MR. CALLA N : that, a measley $50,000 for a couple of artesian wells, contrast that with the hundreds of thousands of dollars that has been poured into the municipality of Norman's Cove- Long Cove by the federal government with no strings attached. You compare it. That very same mayor, Mr.

Chairman, that very same mayor in Norman's Cove who likes to blow the Tory horn, that very same mayor would not have the place to sit down, would not have a building to sit down in - there would be no place to house the fire trucks that they have there, there would be no chambers for the town councillors and the mayor, there would be no room there for the Rural Development Association to meet in on a regular basis, there would be no room there that the district health nurse is availing of, t'here would be none of that - because the building that the town council occupies and the fire truck is housed in was built 100 per cent by federal money.

They would not have a place to sit down. And that is just one example, Mr. Chairman, of the hundreds of thousands of dollars that has been poured .into my home town by the federal government with no strings attached, 6f course 1this callous government says to the same town council and says to the same taxpayers, "We will give you a measley $50,000 but in return you must sign this paper which says that if not this year or next year, in the very near future, as soon as an assessment can be done, you will be forced to implement property taxes." And,of course,as I said, Mr.

Chairman, it is a prime example of the callousness of this government where they are using the town councils around this Province as scapegoats. Instead of raising the sales tax another 1.1 per cent, or instead of putting taxes on incomes or something or other, 1442

March 20, 1984 Tape No . 539 NM - 3 MR. CALLAN: this gove rnment is hiding behind municipaliti es . They are biding behind municipal ities . .~d they are using the municipalities, Mr. Chairman. It is in their F.ive Year Plan, there for anybody to read . It is in this government's Five Year Plan that they will be passing a lot more authority for raising taxes over to the municipalities . MR. WARREN: Shame~ Shame ! MR. CALLAN: And it is happening all over. And that is why, Mr . Chairman, there is such a turnover.

I said to my secretary a few days ago when I was sending out a bit of information to the municipalities, I said to her, "Do not use the name, just send it out Mayor and Councillors . Do not put down Mayor So -and-So on the address because," I said, "they change so quickly ." In Arnold's Cove ,which is one of the most prosperous little towns in the Province, not only in the district of Bellevue but in the Province, thanks 1443

March 30, 1984, Tape 540, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: to National Sea, in Arnold's Cove the turnover of mayors and councillors is. fantastic. I would venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that when the municipal elections roll around there will be an awful lot of towns, an awful of municipalities around this Province that will not be able to get a half dozen people to run for the town council seats and offices, because, Mr. Chairman, gradually, and the process is very gradual, Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, it is very gradual, people are beginning to see the light.

I would like to spend another ten minutes later on this morning on Rural De~elopment Associations. I would like to be in LQng Harbour tomorrow night where the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is guest speaker, speaking to the Rural Development Association . I have an invitation to go, but I have other plans. But I would like to go. I will have my spies there, naturally, but I would like to be there myself as guest speaker. As a matter of fact, I was told by one or two members of t.l-Ie Rural Development Association locally that they thought that I was going to be the guest speaker. MR.

TULK: They are all turning Liberal I believe. MR. CALLAN: But what happened? MR. PATTERSON: The Minister of Fisheries was invited a month ago. MR. CALLAN: I know it is the member for Placentia's district(Mr. Patterson), Long Harbour. They switch around. They had it in Bellevue last year, they had it in Norman's Cove a few years ago, and that.is fine. The Regional Rural Development Association takes in Mount Arlington Heights, Long Harbour and, of course, it goes down to Little Harbour and so on, and all around. That is great, they .are spreading it around. But I would ·-- -- -------- --- -.- -·- 1444

.. March 30, 1984, Tape 540, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: like to be there because, Mr. Chairman, unfortunately an awful lot of these Rural Development Associations are top heavy with Tories. MR. CHAIRMAN(McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. CALLAN: I will get back to the Rural Development thing. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue on a point of order. MR. CALLAN: I would like to call a quorum, Mr. Chairman. DR. COLLINS: There is a quorum here. MR. WARREN: No, there is not, Sir. Can you count? There are eleven. MR.

CHAIRMAN: There is not a quorum. MR. WARREN: Call a quorum. They cannot keep members in the House. Fo~ty-four members and they cannot keep them in the House. Shameful! MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. Order, please! There is a quorum present. Are we free to continue? MR. NEARY: No. On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I believe under the Standing Orders,Your Honour, you have to wait three minutes before we .c an.resume the business of the House. DR. COLLINS: To that point of order, Mr. Chai.r:man. MR.

CHAIRMAN: To that point of order the hon. the Minister of Finance. 1445

March 30, 1984, Tape 540 , Page 3 - - apb DR. COLLINS: I would just like to support the hon . the Leader of the Opposition(Mr . Neary) . He is quite correct,that unless there is leave given we have to w.ait the .three minutes . Now, why he wants to wait the three minutes I ca.nnot conceive . ~ffi . TULK: To get in the members. DR. COLLINS : The public business has to go on . Why he would want to sit around for a useless three minutes, I cannot conceive why h'e would want to do that, but strictly speaking he is within his rights . MR. CHAIRMAN(McNicholas) : Order, please! correct . The point of order is There is about a minute and a hal£ left. 1446

March 30, 198 4 Tape No. 541 MJ - 1 MR. CHAI RMAN (McNic hola s): Order, please! Three minutes has elapsed. The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to congratulate the han. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). I congratulated him yesterday on a certain matter, I would like to congratulate him again today. This is almost getting embarrassing. There is not anything going on between us but nevertheless these two occasions have risen and I would like to congratulate him.

He came as close as anyone in the Opposition did in this whole debate to asking a definitive question, he brought up something in Municipal Affairs. Now that is the c1osest yet we have seen any member opposite speak in this debate,on anything pertaining to what is in the bill, with any substance. So I would like to congratulate him on that. Now he was not right on the mark but at least he was somewhere in the ballpark of saying something germane to this particular bill,and I would like just to comment on it.

Unfortunately,even though one has congratulated ;him, I do have to remark too that what he said was curiously old-fashioned. He just does not seem to know what is going on in this Province. He was talking about municipal taxation and he was saying that the people of this Province are becoming more and more turned off and more an .d more disgruntled, more and more angry with government because they are not giving them more and more out of the public treasury to carry out their responsibilities.

Now, of course, where has he been for the last ten or fifteen years~ The people of this Province are more and more going the other way. They 1447

March 30, 1984 Tape No.541 HJ - 2 DR. COLLINS: are taking on more and more in property taxation. That is an area of taxation that is reserved to the municipalities. The Province does not collect property tax, the federal government does not collect property tax, €hat is reserved to the municipalities.

The municipalities over the last ten or fifteen years,by and large at the encouragement of this governrnen~ because we give them certain matching grants the more they get into property taxation 1 .'by and large the municipalities have taken up more and more. of 'tthis room that is available to them so that they can carry out their municipal responsibilities.You know,that _is the way things are going, that is the reality of municipal government in this Province.

We are moving more and more into a means of funding municipalities which is common . throughout the rest of the world 1 we have tended to lag very severely in this Province in this regard and really we are now catching up and we are catching up quite rapidly, we are catching up at the encouragement of this government 1 and the municipalities are taking it up in a very responsible fashion. We have a good way to go yet 1 but they are moving forward in that area and that is what this budget did. This budget again encouraged the municipalities to rely more and more on property taxation to fund their responsibilities.

The han. member opposite really should get out amongst the people, perhaps speak to the people, perhaps speak to the elected officials in the municipalities just to learn what is going on in a modern way in·this Province. we are very rapidly corning in line with what is common throughout Canada, throughout the civilized world wherever there is municipal government. We are going along that road very smartly, we have got a way to go yet, but we are getting along it quite nicely and quite rapidly and ,it is a very 1448

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 541 11J - 3 DR . COLLINS: responsible course of action and course of direction that the municipalities are taking. But the han. member missed it. He totally missed it. This whole trend passed him by and he is harking back to some era of the 1930s, I think, or perhaps even the 19 20s. He really should get out and talk to the common people and the people in the municipalities and just find out what is going on. So I just had to make that remark.

I am sure , now that I have made the remark 1 the han. member, because he is a good memeber, will pick up that and he will go back to his community and he will encourage them. He will say, 'Look, take up more and more of this tax room that is available to you . Get more and more into the property tax era.' This is where the people will respond, because the people are responding in other municipalities. Now I am sure that,having pointed that out,the hon . member will take this up. We will never hear anything again from the municipalities in his district in terms of assistance from gove rnment 1449

March 30, 1984 Tape 542 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: . because he would be after them so much the whole time that this is the modern way to go; this is the way that most municipalities in the Province are going; this is the way where the municipality itself has its own tax room in its own hands, gives its own flexibility, is not so dependent on the provincial government. Really, it becomes more of a master in its own house. The municipalities are moving that way as fast as they can. They need all the encouragement they can get.

We are giving them the encouragement 1 both verbally and in terms of matching their grants,and I am sure now that if the member opposite also gets into this very useful act and encourages the municipalities in his district to do the same thing that it will only help out the whole process. So I hope now, and I am sure, really, that the member will do that and,you know, come into the modern world,._ know what is going on and get on with it.

D.o not lag behind, do not rusticate, do not get ossified in some previous era; come with the modern world, get into the real facts of life and help out the people in his district. I would just like to make a comment or two on the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) . He was commenting that I did not congratulate members on the Anniversary of Confederation and he said that I am a terrible Canadian and all that sort of thing. I do not have to do any congratulating·. My father was born on the mainland, my father was a Canadian. You know, Canadianism to me and my family is nothing new.

I was born here, I am a proud Newfoundlander,but my family traditions on my father's side are mainland Canada. 1450

March 30, 1984 Tape 542 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: To me, there is nothing strange, weird or wonderful about being a Canadian. I can reach right back to Adam on my father's side, if there were Canadians in those days, and they were Canadians. It is nothing new to me. I am proud to be a Canadian; I am even prouder to be a Newfoundlander, but I am proud to be a Canadian. Now, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) brought up one other point which I thought was interesting and I thought I would just comment on 'it. He said that this Province joined Canada·an instant before Midnight on the 31st of March, 1949.

He made that point and he is quite correct on it. And the reason for it is that it would not seem to be appropriate for us to join Canada on April 1st, April Fools' Day. Now, I am sure that this is in the people's minds over there, that they do not want Newfoundland joining Canada to be associated with April Fools' Day. But that apparently was the reason Mr. Smallwood asked the federal government to let us join an instant before.That is quite true. Now, he did not say another thing, though.

He did not say what is of equal importance, that is that one instant before we joined Canada we got back our constitution, our Dominion constitution. An instant before we joined Canada, our constitution reverted to Newfoundland. So we got back our ·Dominion status, our constitution, one instant before that. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was not there at the time actually, but I have no greater authority on that than who? ~he Prime Minister of Canada and the 1451

March 30, 1984 Tape 542 EC - 3 DR . COLLINS: Chief Justice of Canada . At that time., the Prime Minister of Canada was Louis St. Laurent and the Chief Justice of Canada at that time was f'lr . MacDonald, a Nova Scotian. Mr. St. Laurent was asked in the House what did a certain term in the Terms of Onio n mean, and he pointed out - it was clearly stated in the House of Commons Hansard - that an instant before Newfoundland joined Canada, the suspended constitution of the Dominion was reinstated .

So we were reinstated an instant before we joined Canada -on the word of the Prime Minister, I am not going to doubt the word of the Prime Minister of Canada. The Prime Minister of Cana da said it, it is in Bansard , it is written dO\m ; you know, it is part of our national archives . or \V'hatever. But anyway, the Prime Minister of Canada himself said that an instant before Newfoundla .nd joined Canada, we got back our suspended Dominion constitution . Now, I was a little bit dis­ appointed that the Leader of 14 52

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 543 SD -1 DR. COLLINS: disappointed that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) did not bring out that point. He did bring out that a moment before midnight,rather than on April 1, we became part of Canada~·But he did not bring out an equally important point,that an instant before that moment our suspended constitution fully reverted back to the Province_,we have that on the authority, the word of -the Prime Minister of Canada, Louis St. Laurent. I think my time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas} : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. -MR. WARREN: Mr.

Chairman, in response to the minister's few-comments,I thank him for bringing to -light that his-father was a Canadian. ·However, it is very unfortunate for Newfoundland that we should get such a person as that guy being the Finance Min-ister of this Province. Mr. Chairman, the minister also ment±oned about my colleague bringing up about Municipal Affairs. However, I wish to bring up a couple of points on Mines and Energy.

I understand that the Petrole.um Directorate is-planning to boost its number of employees to have something like twenty or thirty extra employees employed this year in the Petroleum Directorate.

Now with th.e Supreme Court saying that the offshore belongs to Canada, belongs· to all provinces of Canada, I am surprised that the Department of Finance and this government would cons-ider employing an extra twenty to thirty people in the Petroleum Directorate which up to this· day has done very little in this Province. ·--~~~-mtpister wants to_s~e-~hat __ Inter:i,_Ill_ Sup_:ely is :eassed before mid_I_ligh_t_ t()_!l!Or_ro~_nig_ht_. 1453

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 543 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: It is ironic, Mr. Chairman, that in the Department of Transportation,

whereas other Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and members in this hon. House have to travel back and forth by scheduled airlines, the Minister of Transportation CMr. Dawe)_ can have at his disposal a chartered aircraft to take him to his horne every weekend, Is this what we are as·king Interim Supply for, for the Minister of Transportation to call up Labrador Airways when he feels like it to get a charter to go to the West Coast?

It was only just yesterday, I understand, that the Premier and some of his flunkies· carne back from the \>Test Coast, carne back from Stephenville with empty seats on a government chartered aircraft,and the han. Leader of the Opposition CMr. Neary) ,who was out in the area at the same time on behalf of hls· constituents for the opening of the hospital in-Channel- Port aux Basques and_h~ even asked the Premier could he get a ride back on the government chartered ai·rcraft and the Premier said, 'Ask somebody else'.

The plane came back with three empty seats· on it, but my hon. colleague had to go from Stephenville to Halifax and from Halifax back to St. ~ohn's in order to get here today.< The Premier came back in a chartered aircraft with three empty seats and would not, did not have the decency of inviting or asking the Leader of the Opposition to come back with him. Now this is what you call saving taxpayers •· money. And 1 .Mr •. Chairman, if the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins·I believes that we are going to be so naive to give him leave today to pass this Interim Supply I I' lJ·elieve he has something else coming to him because we are not concerned about rnidnigh_t tomorrow night. T do not thi.nk very 111any civil servants are going to be in h.ere tomorrow- issuing cheques for civil servant employees. I believe, 1454

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 543 SD - 3 MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, all civil service employees get paid every second Wednesd ay, they do not aet paid on Friday or Saturday,so do not worry if we are still here Monday . And let the media go around saying, 'L ook' if we do not pass Interim Supply the civil servants will not get paid'. We do not mind staying 1455

Marc~ 30, 1984, Tape 544, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: here until Monday or even Tuesday. Payday is not before Wednesday so we do not mind, and we will make sure that the government can answer for some of this waste that they are asking this House to pass. We know they have forty-four members to our eight and they are going to pass it, but we want to make sure that some of the things that are hidden in those figures are known first. The Minister of Education(Ms. Verge) had the gall to bring in a Ministerial Statement this morning, and what was she doing?

She was saying to future generations of this Province, and the students presently in.the schools, 'If you have money you can go to university or to the trade schools. But, meanwhile, those on social assistance, or those who have to depend on employment insurance for six months of the year, the only way you can go is if you can go to the banks and look for loans first, put yourself in debt first, or,as a last alternative we will give you a grant.' This is what the Minister of Education said this morning in her Ministerial Statement. And the Minister of Finance(Dr.

Collins) said on Budget day that the Minister of Education had good news for us. You call that good news, Mr. Chairman, where we have 80 per cent of our students who are in university and trade schools today in there because they want to advance their education and they are hoping that this government can continue, as the Smallwood administration did, to give them the opportunity to get a decent educ -ation regardless of cost? Regardless of what the cost is the Newfoundland treasury should be able to help those who are unable to help themselves. 1456

March 30, 1984, Tape 544, Page 2 --apb MR. WARREN: There are many students in the Province today who want to go to university but because of the retraints of this government they will be unable to do so. Now, Mr. Chairman, let us look at the Social Services Department. It was only yesterday that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development(Mr. Goudie), and the Minister of Social Services(Mr.

Hickey) received a telegram from twenty individual groups and town councils in Labrador begging the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development to try to put some sense into the Minister of Social Services' head, to try to tell him to wake up and realize that there are special circumstances pertaining to the four social workers who were dismissed by the Minister of Social Services. The Minister of Social Services went in and dismissed those four social workers without any grounds whatsoever. And what did he do, Mr. Chairman?

Instead of taking the trouble to find out from those four social workers what had happened, he goes ahead and calls a press conference. I am glad to see the Minister of Social Services is back in his seat, because I am sure he will take the opportunity to rebut what I am saying very shortly. The minister has.made a drastic error and he will never be forgiven by the people in Labrador. I will advise the minister that he has made the worst error that his department could ever make. And, Mr.

Chairman, I would venture to say that when this case goes to the Supreme Court -in fact, it is on its way to the Supreme Court-and I would say there are indications that the minister jumped the gun. The minister is trying to tell the native people who live in the country in a tent, eight 1457

March 30, 1984 , Tape 544, Page 3 -- apb MR . WARREN: or ten of them in a tent, that 'yo ,u have to charge for board and lodgings' . MR . TOLl<: Is that what he is doing? MR. WARREN : Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Premier said the other day that one of the most compassionate men in his Cabinet, and one of the most compassionate Social Services i.futi.sters ·in a.ll of Canada is the Minister of ~ Social Services(Mr. Hickey) in this Province. MR. NEARY : God help the poor people of Canada. :-m. WARREN: I would say, Mr. Chairma.'l, that the other Social Service <linister across Canada cannot be much of it. They cannot be much of it-when we look at that Social Services Minister • 1458

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 545 MR. WARREN: who has trampled social assistance recipients throughout this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now this is the kind of government we have to withstand. And, Mr. Chairman, I am ashamed, the twenty groups which sent a telegram to the minister! ar~ -ashamed _ of his action, All they are doing is asking him to rescind his action, to rescind his decision and take a moral approach to the incident, Because one individual in his office in Goose Bay figured he was the King of Labrador all of a sudden, these four social workers had go.

I would strongly suggest to the minister that he NM - 1 has made an error and it is high time for him ~o get back to reality and rea~ize that there are many peopfe in this Province who are not as fortunate as the minister is. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to respond to what the han. gentleman is talking about and raving about, four social workers. That matter is before the courts and consequently he should, in his wisdom if he has any left, leave that matter to the judiciary to decide.

One of those people has taken the matter to court and that is his privilege. The other three have protection under the wage and working agreement and they are going throuqh that process. Why does the han. gentleman not put a button on his mouth and wait until the people in the know decide who is right and who is wrong. The han. gentleman wants ~o talk about breaking ·----- laws and Native peoples and all of that. We will debate those issues, Mr. Chairman, at the appropriate time. Let 1459

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 545 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: me suggest to the hon. gentleman something that he should be much more concerned about. since he has such compassion, as one ,.puld gather from listening to what he is saying today, maybe he might tell the House how he justifies dragging out this debate with his colleagues so that the social assistance recipients he is concerned about will not get their cheques on Monday because my officials throughout the Province will have no authority to write a cheque.

And all the clients who come in to visit my fifty-two offices throughout the Province will find the answer, "No, Sorry, we have no money, no money voted by the Legislature because the Opposition if filibustering, will not pass Interim Supply, will not grant money to the House, drags out the debate, making cheap political points - or I should say trying to make cheap political points. The hon. gentleman talks as though everything is fine, the civil servants are going to be paid. Not so, Mr. Chairman, not so. All of them will not be paid if the Interim Supply is not passed today. But my chief concern, Mr.

Chairman, is the social assistance recipients for whom I am responsible and accountable for, and I am telling the hon. gentleman,and all hon. gentlemen opposite, that if Interim Supply is not passed this day social assistance recipients will not have their cheques. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, we are already late. The cheques would have gone in the mail by now, but they are being held; ~ cannot send them, there is no authority to pay, there is no authority to spend money.

If the hon. gentlemen opposite are so compassionate, instead of wasting the time of this House talking about four social workers who took decisions,and, 1460

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 545 NM- 3 MR. HICKEY : as I said, those matters affecting those four people are being dealt with in the normal course of events using the mechanisms which are at their disposal to use, namely the wage and . working agreement and,in one instance,the court, We will all know about that issue in due course as to whether or not my staff and I were right or whether or not we were wrong. And we stand on our decision. ~JR. TULK: !);) not stand on your record. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to prolong debate and I am not going to waste any time because time is of the essence.

Let me make an appeal to hon. gentlemen opposite, that if they have any ~on ' left, for the sake of those 1461

March 30, 1984 Tape 546 PK - 1 MR. HICKEY: people who have to depend on the state to eat on Monday and Tuesday and ·.every other day, they let their ccrnpassion rise sufficient to pass this bill Because they know it is goi~g to pass anyway, they achieve nothing, but they hurt those >-lho are hurting already, Mr. Chairman. So let them show where their compassion is. And let the hon. gentleman for Torngat Mountain (Mr. Warren) come in the Chamber instead of peeping in through the door, let him come in and take his lumps.

He has dug another hole for himself; he laboured to bring forth a mountain and he brought forth a mouse - four social workers. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest the hon. gentleman be more compassionate - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: - and pass this bill so that people who have no jobs to provide for themselves can continue to eat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SHAlRMAN (Aylward}: The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) went on for a time this morning and took the same approach that the Premier has taken on a number of occasions where there seems to be great satisfaction derived from pointing out the problems experienced in othe~ provinces, particularly our sister Province of Nova Scotia. We see the Finance Minister virtually gloating over the difficulties which he sees or which he projects the Nova Scotian economy to be about to experience in future years as their current account deficit, its overall deficit appears to grow.

And he gets great satisfaction from seeing that t~t appears to be growing at a rate higher than Newfoundland's. 1462

March 30, 1984 Tape 546 PK - 2 MR. BARRY: Now that is going to go a long ways, Mr. Chairman, in bringing the Province of Nova Scotia, the Government of Nova Scotia on side with the Premier and his government when he seeks to have that Province approve a constitutional amendment to give Newfoundland certain rights with respect to the offshore. That is really the way to go about bringing the governments of other provinces on side, that is really the way to obtain support from the Premier and the Government of Nova Scotia, to gloat over the way that the economy of that Province, in the Minister of Finance's {Dr .

Collins) opinion is deteriorating. We also see the Premier and the Minister responsible for Energy {Mr. Marshall) time after time getting up and criticizing the Government of Nova Scotia for signing the offshore agreement. Now it is one thing to say that the agreement signed by Nova Scotia is not acceptable or suitable for Newfoundland, but Mr. Chairman, to get up and criticize that government! What presumptuousness, what arrogance for the Premier of Newfoundland to purport to say to the Premier of Nova Scotia what is good for the Province of Nova Scotia.

That is the business of the government and the people of Nova Scotia . And if they want to sign an agreement for their province which they feel is good for their province, that is their right. Now, Mr. Chairman, we have, I believe, a very bad attitude shown, exhibited by the Premier, by the Minister of Finance, we have a continuation of the attitude which has turned off the rest of Canada towards the mem~ers opposite, towards the government opposite. The rest of Canada has tuned out to any attempt by the Premier or his 1463

March 30, 1984 Tape 546 PK - 3 MR. BARRY: g-overn.rnent to describe the equity of the position that all Newfoundlanders would like to see with respect to the offshore, namely this Province having a fair share of revenue and having a substantial involvement in management of that resource . And it is the attitude typified by the statement of the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins ) today that is the rcot cause for the people of other provinces the governments of other provinces tuning out . They do not accept that the ravings of the Premier ,when he goes on television and when he attempts 1464

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 547 MJ - 1 MR. BARRY: to sell Newfoundland's case, they do not accept that that is reasonable because of the attitude shown in the statements such as the one made by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) today. Now, perhaps, Mr. Chairman, this is merely a sign of the arrogance which is appearing in many other areas on the part of members opposite and on the part of the government. Again we have a good example 4 We see the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) out on business of the Province, Mr.

Chairman, invited to the opening of a hospital - as the Leader of the Opposition and as the member for LaPoile invited to the opening of a hospital in his district,and we see the basic common courtesy that traditionally has been extended to the Leader of -the Opposition by the Premier,ignored. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is either arrogance that the government believe that they can have the~r little plane, they can play their little games with their government plane and they can use that, Mr.

Chairman, as though it were their personal play toy~ it is either the arrogance of that attitude or else it is the vindictiveness directed towards the Leader of the Opposition for daring to get up and question whether the government is utilizing the airplane in a proper fashion, for daring to get up and ask whether the taxpayers• dollars are being spent in a correct fashion. So we have either arrogance or vindictiveness as being the reason :for forcing the Leader of the Opposition to travel from Stephenville to Halifax in order to get back to St.

John's when there were empty seats on a government plane, empty· seats on a plane chartered by the people of this Province corning back to St. John's. There is no need of that,and I would ask the Premier and members opposite to shape up and start treating the assets of government not as their own assets but as the assets of the people. 1465

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 547 MJ ~ 2 t1R. BARRY: And the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is one of the institutions that the people realize is protecting the rights of the people of this Province. Now again we have this arrogance that pervades government today in Newfoundland, we see this arrogance typified by the !-1inister of Social Services (~1r.

Hickey) when he gets up and he says, 'Members of the Opposition are wasting their time and wasting the time of the House when they dare talk about the rights of individuals in this Province, when they dare get up and ask whether four social service workers in Labrador are being treated fairly and properly by their government.' This, Mr. Chairman, is a waste of time~ It is now the policy of this government that it is a waste of time for members of the Opposition to question whether the rights of individuals are being respected, whether the rights of individuals are . b'eing protected. We had the opportunity, Mr.

I Chairman, of questioning the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (llr. Goudie) on this point and, Mr. Chairman, we learned from the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development that he was not consul ted by the Hinister of Social Services before the minister took his highhanded and arbitrary and inflexible action., MR. TULK: And he is the Minister for Labrador . and Northern Development. MR. BARRY: The minister has a particular responsibility for Northern affairs in his portfolio, but even if he was not the only minister from Labrador, Mr.

Chairman,with three of his own constituents being so dealt with, and one constituent of the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) 1 what is the response of the ~"l.inister of Rural, 1466

March 30, 1984 Ta9e No. 547 t-t..J - 3 MR. BARRY : Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr . Goudie) ? ~1e have, Mr . Chairman, his response that · he had not received a Telex from other groups in Labrador. ! Now this is an incident that has been debated in this House, has been raised in the media over the past three weeks, and the least the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Develo9ment should have done was to call up to his constituents, ; or call the contacts that he has in his district and find out,not just rely- u9on the information that is sent uo to him through the Department of Social Services, if he got 1467

March 30, 1984 Tape 548 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: any information,but he should have made contact directly with his constituents - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: and he should have consulted with the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) before that minister made this decision. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Hear, hear! Order, please! Before recognizing the next speaker, I take great pleasure in welcoming to the Speaker's gallery today the hon. Donald Johnston, Minister of Regional Economic Expansion and Minister of Science and Technology. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DHIN: Hr. Chairman.

HR. CI-IAIRYJ.AN: The bon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman,I would like to have a few words in the debate. First of all, the hon. Mr. Johnston, who is in the House just now and has been recognized by the Chair, ought to be aware that maybe not all the leadership contenders are into the race federally yet for the Liberal leadership, the bon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) might bolt at any moment! Mr. Chairman, that is about all I have to say about what the hon. the member for Mount Scio has to say. I think I will take the same attitude as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) takes when he indicates that all we have to do with the member for Mount Scio is give him a little rope and he will hang himself. MR. Sil11>1S: More exposure. MR. DINN: And the more exposure he gets the more he is heading towards that. As a matter of fact, in his maiden speech as a Liberal member in the House, 1468

March 30, 1984 Tape 548 EC - 2 MR. DINN: he just about did that and I think he is a non-issue now in the Province, so now I will deal with some of the issues in the Province. I would like to deal with what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said with respect to the airplane trip yesterday. Well, he was invited out to the opening of a new hospital, the first hospital in the five-year programme that was dealt with by this administration, the first hospital in the five-year programme, and where was it put? Well, obviously, the pork barrel was out of vogue.

The pork barrel is out of vogue in this Province because the first hospital that was built under the programme was built in, lo and behold, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's district. And not only that, during that particular Budget debate, the Leader of the Opposition voted against that budget,so he obviously did not even want the hospital to go there. MR. SIMMS: But he had the nerve to show up there. MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to deal a little bit with the airplane trip.

Well, as I understand it, the Leader of the Opposition yesterday attempted _to get a trip- -in from Stephenville and he approached the Premier and said, 'Mr. Premier, I am going to St. John's. Is there any room on the aircraft?' Well, the Premier, being a very busy man, and having many things on his mind, said, 'Well, I do not know how many people are going on the airplane or how much baggage there is or what the weight limitations are, so you will have to check with the gentleman who is arranging that for me and see what he has to say.' 1469

March 30, 1984 Tape 548 EC - 3 MR. DINN: Well, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) obviously did not want a trip in, he just wanted to make a point, as is his wont. I mean, he is continually attempting to camouflage issues. He did not even approach the gentleman who was co-ordinating that trip. Je was not refused a flight in. He went to the Premier; the Premier said, 'Well, there is a gentleman in charge of that. He is going to make sure that there is not too much baggage or that there are not too many people, that there are enough seats for everybody.

Go and see him and he will see what we can arrange. ' He did not go and approach him, he did not even ask. And he carne into the House of Assembly today and made a big issue about the fact that they would not give him a ride in from Stephenville , when he did not even ask for a ride of the gentleman who was arranging the trip. MR. BARRY: He asked the Premier. MR. DINN: Now, the hon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) is breaking the rules of the House by interrupting. He is obviously smarting from the fact that the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition is to give him enough rope and he will hang himself.

He made his maiden speech in the House as a Liberal and he just about did that. He is continuing on on that same road and I would venture to guess that 1 in a month or two, the mer:iber for Haunt Scio '\~Till be a has -been as he is a -has-been in his district. Mr. Chairman, I would like to deal with one or two other items. The han. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) got up today and talked about what the government is not doing in the budget. He did not talk 1470

March 30, 1984 Tape 548 EC - 4 NR . DINN : about anything that the government wa s doing . He attempted, for example, to deal with Norman's Cove in his district and Municipal Affairs tre .ating them poorly because the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs . Newhook) last year gave them $50,000 for water for the people in his little town of Norman's Cove, $50,000 she laid out last year in her budget for water for the people of Norman's Cove, and the hon . member did not think this was a good idea .

He also said , ' You are driving municipalities into the ground .' Well , there is only one other person that I know of wh~ spoke out on the budget with respect to Municipal ~..ffairs and how the government is driving them into the ground, and that is the Mayor for Carbonear , who is the President of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities . Well, I do not know Nhat his 1471 --

March 30,1984 Tape No. 549 ah-1 MR. DI NN : political affiliation is 1but he is the only president of the mayors and municipalities since I can remember­ now if you go back far enough, of course, you will get back to when the han. Leader of the Oppostion (Mr. Neary) was involved in that association,so , I mean, the same sort of thinking went on then . MR. s·rMMS: then. MR. DINN: There was no government But all of the presidents of mayors and municipalities throughout my time in this House of Assembly since 1975 and as Minister of Municipal Affairs for three years - MR. SIMMS: And a good one.

MR.DINN: - 1976,1977 and 1978, all the presidents of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities have been espousing the fact that they want to have more control over their destiny and they want to be more responsible and they want to get into property tax, but they are a little bit scared, they need a little bit of encouragement and they have gotten that sort of encouragement . And,lo and behold 1the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) comes in this year and she says,'Well, now we have a bit of difficulty.

We are spending about $25 to $30 million yearly installing water and sewer and local roads and fire trucks~1kdchthe han. member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan) talked about .~fire trucks in different municipalities 1 and we think that it is time that municipalities paid a little more of their share; but not the total share. • MR.SIMMS: 80 per cent or something like that. MR.DINN: Up to this point in time 1 1472

March 30,1984 Tape No. 54~ ah-2 MR.DINN: for hon.member's benefit, the Province has been paying 85 per cent of the debt charges for all water and sewer that has been installed in the different municipalities in this Province. In 95 per cent of the municipalities of this Provice, the provincial government - MR. SIMMS: Does that go back to the Liberal days? MR. DINN: No, it does not go back to the Liberal days. I mean,there was hardly a drop of water in the Province only in St. John's,where we paid for it ourselves. MR-SIMMS: I see. MR. DINN: But, Mr.

Chairman, what we are attempting to do is this; since ~·re are spending $25 to $30 million for water and sewer ·and local roads in this Province 1 we have, I venture to guess .-I know in my day in Municipal Affairs, just the requests for one year from municipalities for water and sewer in .this Province, which I knm-r I did it up one year, amounted to somethinq like $225 million 1so that is an example. HR. snms: What? MR.

DINN: The requests for \'later'- and sewer in this Province,because they have been neglected for about twenty-three years, the requests that were coming in amounted to about $225 million per year for the needs of our people for water and sewer. And we attempt,through our small budge~ here in this Province,to spend $25 to $30 million for water and sewer in this Province. And are we saying to the municipalities,as they do in just about every province in this country, are we saying ,'~au are the government of that town or that city or that community,and if you 1473

March 30,1984 Tape No. 549 ah-3 MR. DINN: want water and sewer you should pay for that, you should pay all of the debt charges on that'.? We are not saying that. MR. SIMMS: accused of. MR. DINN: That is what we are being In Nova Scotia the municipalities pay just about all of the debt charges with resnect to water and sewer. I spent some nine years there. MR. SIMMS: The local municipalities? MR. DINN: Oh, yes, the local municipalities pay it. They get assistance from the government with respect to loans but the loans are paid back in Nova Scotia by the municipalities and the counties. MR. SIMMS: I see. MR.

DINN: Mr. Chairman, here in Newfoundland the municipalities are now paying approximately 15 per cent, about 15 per cent of the debt charges on utilities. So what we are sayinq to the municipalities- HR. RIDEOUT: '.Liley are not even paying that much. MR. DINN: 15 per cent. rm. RIDEOUT: MR.DINN: Some municipalities are up to Of their fixed revenue. That is right, of their fixed revenue , but it is up to 15 per cent. Some municipalities - l1RS • NF.': ·'JEOOK: That is the minimum. MR. DINN: Yes, 15 per cent is the minimum now, right. And what we are saying to the municipalities is that 15 per cent, -you should 1474

March 30,1984 Tape No . 549 ah-4 MR. OI)4N: take a little more, you should pay a little greater share of that utility. MR. SIMMS: Up to 50 per cent. MR. DINN : No, it is not 50 per cent, it is not 80 per cent, it is not 45 per cent, it is 20 per cent . So we are saying to the municipalities we will pay the 80 per cent still but you will have to pay a larger portion. And every president of the mayors and municipalities that I am aware of up to this yea~ when Mayor Reid from Carbonear, the hon . member's district - tffi. PEACH: A fan of the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr .Barry) MR.

DINN: A fan of the hon. member for Mount Scio . He has one fan? One fan in the Province? MR . SIMMS: now,! think. There are two down there MR. DINN: Well ,he has two fans in the Province. tvell , Mr. Chairman, he is the only president of th~ Feder ation of ~~yors and Municipalities that I ~~ aware of who has come out and said that the municipalities are being driven into the ground. 1475

March 30, 1984 Tape No. 550 SD - 1 MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, they are saying 20 per cent of their fixed revenue towards the utilities that we are paying something like $25 million to $30 million a year to have installed so that people can have adequate water and sewer and local roads in their municipalities, a