~ VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, DECEMBER 1, 1982. NO. 51

De,~ember 1, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Chairman in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Rus~ .ell): Tape No. 2925 MJ - 1 Order, please! Before we begin today's proceedings, it is a distinct pleasure for me to welcome to the Speaker's gallery today meNbers of a Select Cornrni ttc'e from the Nova Sc<>tia Legislatm ·e led by the Speaker of the Legislature, th< · han. Arthur J >onahoe, members f1r. Hugh Tinkham and r~r. Vince McLean 1 and secretaries to the committee Dr. Henry Mu rgah and Mr. Graham Walker. 0 11 behalf of all of the hot. members I i11deed welcome you to our Legislature today. SO 1E HON . MEMBER:; : MR.

WM. MARSHALL · MR. SPEAKEH: Colmcil. MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS Mr. Speaker. The han. the President of the Mr. Speaker, it was with a feeling of profound shock and concer11 that the government learned recently of Bowal:ers plan to shutdown its Number 7 machine in the mill at Corner Brook. Since then 1government has be·~n striving to have Bowate• -s postpone announcement of it decision to enable a full assessment of the facts to be made so that the possibility of a cnunler proposal or proposal could be' explored.

It was for this purpose that the Premier met with the head of Bowaters International in London last Friday. It was for this purpose that the Ministers of Development (Mr. N. Windsor), Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. C. Power) and Educ<~tion (Ms. L. Verge) went to visit officiaLs of Bowaters North American headquarters in South Carolina. Government was seeking a postponement 6157

December , 1982 Tape No . 2925 MJ - 2 MR. WM . Ml\RSRALL: of the announc • ·ment . We felt, t-tr. Speak er , it was better to be able to a::sess the situalion and any cou nter-proposal or proposal woul d have more fav nurable prospects of reception if there was the opportunity to mate them prio r to the takin g of a public deci si on . The reason for this, Mr . Speaker, is •lbv ious: It is more difficult to have decisions reversed or modified prioc to a party having publicly announced that decision.

As everyone knows, the prospects of having d· ·cis ions reasscsst ·d , if n~considerati o n is in fact possib le,are di minished once public positi ons are taken. It was ro r th• s reason, Mr . Spe~ker, that government decided it was in th e be ~t interests of the Province ,and the people of the West coast tarticularly, to m<•ke every effort to have the announcement del ayed . I might add it was also for this reason, Mr.

Spea ker, that on Friday last I indicated in the House that it was not in the best interests o: the people of th <· Province, and particul.'t!:ly of the West coast,to comme •t on the questions tha i were mad e. But unfortunately, 6158

December 1, 1982 Tape 2926 PK - l MR. MARSHALL: as we now know from the releases that h."lve been m;,de on the West Coast 1 Bowaters refused to afford us this opportunity and the decisi.on has been made. It was ctlso f, >r this reason that government was so concerned over th· · Opposition's approach to Question Period last Friday. By now it must be evident that the Opposition acquired this information from some confid( ·ntial source. By choosing to make it public, Mr. Spear.er, any chance government had to obtain th ' much needed postponement of the decision - SO ilE HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: - was virtually eliminated. If this statement requires verification, if the hon. members reyuire verification, Mr. Speaker, I can advise them that I was speaking wjth the Premjer approximately an hour - SOME HON. MEMBERS: 011, oh! MR . MARSHALL: - and a half ~qo, and I can refer them to the response which the head of Bowaters International made to the Premier this morning, when the Premier called him in a last-ditch effort to have the announcement postponed. The Chairman's response was words to the effer.t, "lrlhat do you mean?The decision has already been made public.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact that the decision of Bowaten; has now bec·n taken,qovernment is qoing to proceed to have a complete n assessment of the facts relating to this most serious situa .ion. This will pro.:eed immediately so that t.he full impact of this decision on the people of the West Coast can be d< termined and every effort will be made to see if it is poss :i ble to formulate an acceptable proposal or counte-r proposal. Tbe Premier h •S already wired the Mayor and union officials to that ef cct, and indicated that h<~ will meet with :1.eaders in Corner Brook next week.

A copy of his telex is attached to my statement and I shall 61)9

December 1, 1982 Tape 2926 PK - 2 MR. MA-RSHALL: read the text of it; it is ratl1er brief, Mr. Speaker. It reads:"The Provincial Government is deeply concerned about the Bowaters situation. As you know,three minister of the government have been in South carolina these past days. I have had a meeting with the Chairman of the Board in London. We have been attempting to have the company delay announcing its decision until government had all the facts from the company. After receiving this information,government wanted to prepare a counter-proposal or proposalG.

I have spoken to the Chairman of the Board today and I will be speaking to him again later today. The ministers in South Carolina are not havin<J much succ•·ss in obtaining a delay to the decision to be announced. In any event,a serious situation exists.' The Premier went on to say, 'I should like to brief all the relevant organizations in the Humber Valley-Bay of Islands an:a and to receive your views on the matter. Therefore I wish to meet with yau,and the leaders of the other groups copied on this telex 1next week in Corner Brook. My office will be in contact with you to organize the meeting.

I look very much fon;ard to discussing this matt.er with you at tl1at time. Signed A. Brian Peckford, Pr~niei! Now, Mr. Speaker, in addition to that I can announce that government has also moved to establish a high-level committee to be co-ordinated under the Departments of Finance, Forest Resource~: and Lands and Development. rm. HISCOCK: Nat 1.onalize it. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman might think that this is a humerous situation, but it has very serious implications to the people of this Province and the West coast. The purpose of this comn1ittee that LS being established, Mr.

Speaker, will be to gather all facts relating to the Bowater decision and 6160

December 1, 1982 Tape No. 2927 MR. MAnSHALL: w.ssess the entire situation with a view to af surin~1 that every concei IT able ster • is identilied to alJeviatc the impact of thi> decision and 1.o recommend sue}, proposals or counter- pr• >posals that <fOVernment might make. ~'he committee will consult with and obtain the benefit of such experts as might be necess.1ry. Gove1 nment has also considerec l, Mr.

Speaker, inviting, and r as decided to invite tht! federal SD - 1 qovernment to set up with it a joint consultative committee under applicable labour legislation to heJp alleviate the ultimate imp<ct of this decision. This action should not, however, Mr. Speaker, be interpreted as derogating i.n any way from <iOVernment' s primary focus which is to assess all factoJs relating to this decisjon with a view t•> formulatj n<J whatever proposals or counter ::.roposals are possible. In conclusion , Mr.

Speaker, may I assure the peoplE' of the West Coast,and Corner Brook in particular, ol government's deep and abiding concern for the workers directly affected. This is a traumatic experience which all Newfoundlanders share~ but me>st e-specially is it . felt by the workers and their families. 1'o them we give ''ur pledge and assurance J:hat no stone will be left unt11rned to see that everyth i nq poss i.ble is done in the circumstances. May I also sa y, Mr.

Speaker, when I am making this statement,because I would not wish these nfforts to be maintaincd,that government has also indica l:ed that i 1 is not going to J cave no stone unturned in connection with the situation down i.n llurin which is very much to the forefront as we1 ·1. \'lc · have made a statement with r"spect to Burin ea ,-lier this week and 6161

December l , 1982 Tape No. :~927 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: we will b<! deal i.ng with that as well. But this is the statement that is necessary wiLh respect t(l Bowaters immediately. Our concern is equally for both areas of the Province- as a matter of fact with all areas of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKFR (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council's statement took approximately eight minutes and it is unden.tood that the Opposi tj on has approxiJTlately one half Lhat time,so I recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to be intimidated by rer11arks make by the hon. gentleman, neither am I going to play ~·litics as the hon. gentleman did in his · statement. The llon. gentleman knows th<>t the Premier last night from Bonn confirmed that he knet,. r about the Bowaters' situation Lwo weeks ago, thwt he .left the Province with this information only after giving the information to a few of his Cabinet colleagues. MR. MARSHALL: A few? MR. NEARY: A few,and they have not been identified yet. And over the dwys and weeks ahead we will be dealing with that situation. The fact of the matt< ,r is, Mr.

Speaker, that three Cabinet Ministers went to North Carolina only forty-•~ight hours before Bowaters was scheduled to call a news confer ence in Corner Brook to make the announcement. And when the y went to North Carolina they went ill-prepared, they had no proposal, they had no papers with them. They went ill-prepared and they asked for a thirty day moratorium. Now, 6162

December 1, 198~· Tape 2928 NM - l MR. NEARY: remember the government had this inforn1ation for two weeks, and if I had not raised it last week they probably would not have went to Carolina. They went there 48 hours before Bowaters was to make the announcement and asked for a thirty day moratorium and that was rejected. And they spertt the rest of their time in North Carolina touring the t'aper mill down there. Now that is the effort that so far we have seen on behalf of this government. And so, Mr.

Speaker, we make no apologies at all in this House for raising this situation in order to try to protect the jobs of the employees of Bowaters in Corner Brook. The set-back at the Bowater paper mill is tragic, Mr. Speaker, in the extreme, and although we ar•! not at all pleased with the way the Premier handled the s.ituation, there is still time to try to stave off this .impending disaster. The actions of Bowaters today, Mr. Speaker, are actions of heartless brutality.

It is tragic that this company, which just a few months ago bragged about its high profits in the financial newspaper rhe Guardia~, would now seek to tidy up its financial >ook­ keeping on the backs of paper. mill workers and the city of Corner Brook. This company, Mr. Speaker, which has taken billions out of this Pr.ovince for its foreign shareholders year after year, is now trying to make their employees and the people in the western part of this Province suffer. ~?he Lib·~ral Caucus, Mr.

Speaker, have instructed me to offer any hc~lp or assistance that we can to the people of Corner Brook in these trying times. If government have any alternatives to these layoffs, any 6163

December l, 1982 Tape 2928 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: plans, any proposals, or any ideas to save the jobs 01 lessen the burden on the people of Corner Brook, we will support them in their endeavours. But in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, we will be keeping a close eye on the situation ourselves and will not hesitate to put forward ideas and proposals of our own whenever we feel that they are in the best interest of our fellow Newfoundlanders in the Western part of this Province. And if the hon. gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, wants to do a service to the people of Corner Brook, and the peo1le in the Western part of this Province, he would lay aside ~is partisan politics for a few days, maybe a few weeks or a few months, and let us roll up our sleeves and g•~t dowr · to brass tacks and see if we can stave off this sibtation. We are prepared to forego Private Member's Day in th .ts House today to have this matter debated,if the han. gentJeman ~ill concur. We need the unanimous approval of the House, and if the hon. gentlement will concur, Mr.

Speaker, the resolution that we are debating today in Private Member's Day is one put forward by my colleague, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) to have live coverage of the proceedings of this House. We are quite prepared to give up that resolution, we made a decision in caucus, if the hon. Clentlernen will agree to debate the Bowaters situation in this House this afternoon. 6164

D(!Cember 1, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Rufsell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 2928 NM - 3 ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I just want tc • ask the hon. gentleman about the Bowaters situation. C0n the hon. gentleman tell the House, in addition to the 746 employees - again the hon. gentleman 6165

December 1,1982 Tape No. 2929 ah-1 MR.NEARY : came into the House again today , I would s11spect, very ill-prepared to deal with this situaLion. lie did not even know the number!; and I doubt if he knows the numbers yet- in itddition to the layoff of 746 empl Jyees,what ot : ~r steps are beinq taken by Bowaters to cut back the operation in Corner nrook? Are they closinJ down any other part of the mill? Will there be any further down- time in Corner Brook as a result of the economic conditions throughout the world? Could the hon. qentlcman give us this kind of inform.:1tion? MR.SPEAKE·R (Russell): The hon.

Presid•2nt of the Council. MR.MARSHAJ.L: Mr .Speaker, I c.m state that the only information that we have ,apurt fr•>m the 496 mi 11 workers who are going to be laid off a:; a rC':.ul t of the shut-down of the machine in Corner Bcook and the 250 loggers who are working in the woods op•3ration, that is the extent of the layoffs. I have 11othing more, I think, than the press conference by Bowat<3rs in Corner Broo~ indicated today,that in additjon they are going to shut down the stone yroundwood mill but tha ~~ is not goinq to add to the numb( cs of people who will be without work. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary,Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Would the hon. •rentleman tell the House now then what steps the administr.ttion are going to take to deal with this situation? Could the hon. gentleman give us some idea of what plans and proposals and what suggestions will be made to try to stave off this impending disaster? We would like to l:now, l'r. Speaker, because we want to help the goverm1ent. We want to know what plans they have so we can support any plans and proposals that they might have. Could the hon. 6166

December 1,1982 Tape No. 2929 ah-2 Ml·'. NEARY: gentleman tell us how they intend to deal w th this situation? And will the hon. gc ,ltleman also t<·ll us if it is the intention of the administration t" redesignate the Fishery College that th<) Premier want< ·d built in St. Joim' s ond the people wanted built out in Corner Brook , is that one of the items that will l>e given top priority, the redesignation of the Fishery C• >llege from St. John's to Corner Brook? MR.SPEJ\.KER (Russ•:ll): The hon. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, as to what the government is goLng to do with respect to the situation 1 I think that has been outlined and detailed in the statement itself. We have .tlready taken action with respect to the establishement o the committee that I h,1ve referred to. The Premier will be in consultation with the various le 1ders in the We ;t Coast community when he returns next wc~k, plus the otter items that I have mentioned in the st.ttement. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am going to speak directlv to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) with respect to the second part of his question, as to whether or not we are going to move the Fisheries College. I would caution him not to use an unfortunate situation for the purpose "f attempting to s ·~t one part of this Province off against another. This is a very unfortunate situation,and I tell the hon. Leadc·r of the Opposition directly that the government is going to use its best efforts in every way to see what il can do to alleviate this unfortunate :;ituation. So if the hon. 6167

December 1, 1982 Tape 2930 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: gentlemun wants to engage in his penchant for polib cs at the expense of the people c_,f Corner r:rook, such as h·· did last Friday, he can do it, but I will not partake with him in it. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russel~ Opposition. SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: M1-. Speaker. 'I' he hon. the Lc·ader of the Ilear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I am not even goi_ng to bother to answer the hon. gentleman, t< answer such Jow trash coming from tl1e 1 i_ps of the hon. ger ;tleman. Mr.

Speaker, that suggestion was mao ~ in good faith anci in sincerity, and if the hon. gentler11an d·>es not like it, i:l they are a St. John's government, \vell then, J.V:r. Spe<Jker, sobeit, let him be man enoujh to stand up and say so, but they cannot see beyond the overpass in St. Johr 's. Now, Mr. Speakcr, let me ask the hon. gentleman, in connection with down time, my under­ standing is that in the first quarter theJe will be eight weeks down time in the mill in Corner Brork that the hon. gentleman does not seem to know about and probably does not care about. Now, Mr.

Speaker, why should Bowaters - this is the question I am asking the hon. gentleman - why should the employees of Bowaters and why should the mill in Corner Brook be asked to take all the down time in the Bowater organization and the other mills in the United States and in other parts of the world not share the down time with Corner Brook? And would the hon. gentleman teJl the House what steps he is going to take to try to remedy that situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. ~R, MJI.l~S!IA.LL: The eight weeks down time, we are obviously aware of it. The eight weeks down time, Mr.

Speaker, 616B

December 1, 1982 Tape 2930 EC - 2 ~:11,. Hl\RSIIALL: is brought :tbout as a result oE the - indeed, we are told that the rnajor reason for the unfortunate situation in Corner Br,Jok, in addition to the eight weeks down time,is the unfortunate financial situation both internationally ancl nationally that we find ourselves in. As I referred to yesterday, the inter- n:1tional and national recession i:; qoi ng to reflect on a fragile economy such as that experienced by the people of Newfoundland probably much more so than many other parts of Canacla.

So that is the reason that hu s been given. 1\s I say, we arc in the process of assessing the situation n 11d assessing and weighing all of the facts. So I am not 9oing to comment and neither am I goinJ to enter into recriminations against anyone at this particular time lest it adversely affect the ultimate resolution of the situation which we earnestly hop0 and Nill really strive to make a positive one. I mean, ''OU k:1ow, you have to watch the questions that you ask.

Last Friday, the hon. 9entleman, who could have quite eu.sily behind the curtain of this Ilouse asked me the questi•ms und I would have responded, instead ch,ose to come '1ut J ike he did and in a large measure then foreclosed a11d eJ iminated the possibility that we were strivinq to <et, a postponement of that decision in order to have a rational time to be able to answer the questions - SOHE IION. MEMBERS: MR. MJ\RSHALL: l10n. gentleman Oh, oh! - the very questions that the 6169

December 1, 1982 Tape No. 2931 MJ - J MR. WM. MARSHALL : proposes.So that is the answer that I give to the hon. gentleman. As to being a St. John's government, Mr. Spe 1ker, I refer the hon. gentleman to the decision rendered by the people of this Province on April 6, last. This is very much a Newfoundland and Labrador Government as witnes:;ed by the few members on the opposite side. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, as T have said earlier I am not going to get dow' in the mud and roll with the bon. gentleman. MR. H. BARRETT : MR.

NEARY: You have never been out of it. But that has to be about the lowest, filthiest, most rotten - and it could only come from the lips of the bon. gentleman. If the Premier, Mr. Speaker, has designated the bon. gentleman as his hatchet man, he could not hav(' pick·~d a better member on the government side. But [ am .r:ot going to get involved in debate with the hon. gentleman at this particular point in time. They are smart i.ng enough now because the Premier ran away from the Provin·'e with this information like a coward, went off to Europe art the seal ban and left the people of Corner Brook in the lurch. MR.

SPEAKER : Order, please! The bon. the Leader of the Opposition is entering intn the realm of debate and I would ask him to pose a direct question. MR. NEARY: Mr.Speaker, it is hard not to debate with the hon. gentleman,althouqh I s~id I am not going to be intimidated by the hon. ul tim,1te in nastiness 6170

December l, 1982 Tape No. 293J MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: . -- - in this House. Now, would the hon. gentleman b1ll us if he is prepared to forego Private Memebers' Day in this House today and debate the Bowaters situation? MR. WM. MARSHZ\LL: - - Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, knowing full well the harm that was caused to this situation by the hon. gentleman's participation in it last Friday, I hardly think, as urgent as this situation is 1that anything that the hon. gentleman could contribute to it could do anything other than harm the people of Corner /\rook and the West coast. I will ask th(' hon. gentleman there opposite, when he talks about debate,is he prepared to apologize to the people of the West coast and Corner Brook for what he has perpetrated by the unwise way in which he dea1t with it and the irresponsible in which he dealt with it himself on Friday last?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEZ\RY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPI :AKER: The hen. the Leader of the opposition. MR. NEl\RY: Mr. Speaker, judgin~ by the number of phone calls and the messages th.tt I have had from Corner Brook from people, I would say t1at the people of Corner Brook are very happy and proud that they had an effective Opposition in this House, that the government was not allowed to sit on the information until the House of Assembly closed 1 because that is what they intended to do. They were going to sit on Durin and sit on Bowaters until the House closed .

The minister knew the House was closing on Friday of this week,and the Premier would be out of the Province when the pad news would come 1 and they were hoping they could sit on it, keep it from the people, and the hon. gentleman 6171

December 1, 1982 'l'a pe No . 1.931 MJ - 3 MR . \Yl-1 ~1ARSHALL : ~ou ld dec ide when the people would be told the truth . Now, l-1r . Speaker, that is a very poor and shabby way to treat th •• people of this Province , MR. T. HICKEY : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order , M r. Speaker . The hon . the Minister of socia l Services on a point of order . MR. HICKEY : Mr. Speaker , i~ there a ouestion there somc\o~here? MR . G. WARREN : Yo u have cut off \~ Hare . Sit dawn 11(1,<,1! ---MR . SPEAKER : Order , please! The Chair is also wondering if there is <s quc sti Cin. t.ffi . NEARY : Mr .

Speaker, let it be noted and let it stand on the public record that the hon. gen tleman is too ashamed of the government 's actions and is not prepared to have this matter debated in this Hou se. SOME HON. MEMBERS : b1R . SPEAKER : Order , pleo~se! Oh , ohl Order, please! Order , please! I would ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to be more precise in his questions or I will hav ·~ to rule him out of order . MR . '1" . LUSII :_ Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the member for Terra Nova . MR . LUSH : Mr . Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr . J. Collins), 6172

December 1, 1982, Tape 2932, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: the gent leman who is passively watching over the economic demi:;e of the Province. The question, Sir, relates to hLs economic statement some weeks ago, when the minister ann • JUnced the increases in taxes, and it was suggested afte- that one of the reasons to increase th· : taxes was to mi11imize the numbcJr of layoffs that might otherwise result wit tin the public service. Ind0ed, there was very little r<:ference to layoffs. There was some mention of selective layoffs, and there was a specific mention of twent v-seven park officials being laid off .

So related to that, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the ministe ,- can indicate whc,ther there have been any layoffs since that statement, or whether there will be any layoffs in this fiscal year, an<l if the minister has any idea of what numbers we are talk Lng about in the civil service with respect to layoffs and what the categories or classifications might be of these layoffs? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I presume the hon. member wants to maximize the layoffs in the public service.

This government does not take that view, this government takes the view that to achieve a certain objective it will minimize the effect on the workers in the public service. We will do what is ne<:essary, but we will not cause unnecessary harm. or dLfficulty to the employees in the public service, emplo yees who a t·e faithful workers, who do the people of this Province proud by their efforts, and we will not take the attitude that the hon. member clearly projec.ts of trying to do the greatest harm possible to them. Mr.

Speaker, in terms of dealing with the . problems we ·lre facing passively, I think the hon. member must h;lVe been asleep the other day when the message was given. This was an active measure, it was not a passive measure. The statement was a measur<~ that looked 6173

Decemb er 1, 1982, Tape 2932, Page 2 -- apb DR . CO LLINS : at a difficult problem facing us , did somethin g about it, and we fully expect it will achieve a very positive result, far f~om being passive . In terms of no mentio n of layoffs, if the hon . memb er takes the t~ouble to ~ead aga in the statem ent he will note that in that statement there is a saving of something in the ord er of $4 .3 million to be achicv ~d by certain selective layoffs in the publ ic servic e, and certain delays in employing , especially temporary emp loyee s, who would normally come on at this time of the year and in the ensuing month s. MR. LUSH : ~ supplementary , M r. Speaker . 61 74

11: December l, 1982 Tape 2933 PK - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister certainly dicJ not get to the essence of my question. The question was related to the intensity of the layoffs in terms of numbers, and what categories, what classifications would be affected. Are these people just temporary workers'! Are these people workers who have been working for the government for a l<img time, ten , fifteen years?

So can the minister be more specific in terms of just what numbers 1re involved in the layoffs and what the classifications Qf these workers are? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think I have already indicated that, by and large 1the workers who will be laid off will be in the temporary category in sHch areas as Transpor tat. ion, Public Works and Services and so on. These departments, in particular, have occasion to use tempor.1ry workers to a large extent and these· are primarily the worl~<~rs who will not be engaged for a number of months.

In addition l:o that 1 however, it has been necessary on a very selective IJasis to discontinue the employment of some permanent worker:;. This has to go through the usual process that is put Ln place 1 through the collective b;1rgaining arranqcment e:>sentially. And it is difficult to give precise numbers, but the numbers of the permanent employees will range somewhere around sixty to eighty. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for ?erra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister has indicated that there will be sixty to eighty workers la.id off. Well, Mr. Speake:r, vTe hope that to be an accurate figure.

And leading on from that, Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Pub+ic Works (Mr. Young) : I wonder if the Minister of Public Works can indicate 6175

December l, 1982 1'ape 2933 J?K - 2 MR . LUSH: whether or not his department has been affected by the: ;e l. ttof fs, whether thl•re have been or whether there will b< · any layoffs within th<· Public Service ·.• And if so, how many workc " s have been laid off to date? MR . SPEAKER (Russell).:. 'fhc hon. Minis tel of Public Works and services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, to <.late the:·e have been twenty-two peopl ~ a/l ected,in my department And these are mainly labourers Jnd ;orne ~arpentcrs. the bon . Minister of Pinancc (Dr . Collins) said, due to the restraints , and th .lse .1re temporary people. MR.

SPEJ.IJ<ER: The hon. member for Eagle River . MR . HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie), with regard to a letter I ~rol< ! vour department on July 1.5 of this year asking that your department would provide some help in the purchasing of foo I ancl fuel and giv e direct loans to smaller general stores so the' ca 1 buy food and fuel instead of qoing to Avco Finance,becau •e the wholesal es will not qive them that much credit, is ··our government looking at the possibilit y of helpin q th e sc smaller businesses to help carry them over the Winler :.tod, with regurd to f•>Ocl and fuel? The question I t:ave tn ask the minister; 6176

December 1, 1982 Tape No. 2934 MR. HISCOCK: Is there truth t" the rumour that down in the community of Fox Harbour - commonly called St. Lewis, Labrador- one-quarter of the residents now are without gasoline for the Winter and here the freeze-up has not even luh.<:!ll jJla.ce? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, on the first part SD - 1 of whether or not qovernment will provide financial assistance in loans and grants to these particular businesses ceferred to, the only answ•!r I c.m give is on behalf of my own department in whicll we h. tVe a grants and loans programme, neither of which i:; designed to assist the retail trade. So that answers that particular question. As to the state of gasoline supplies and other fuel supplies in Fox Harbour or 1ny other co11ununities on the South Coast, I cannot answer that question either.

The only communities in Labrador in which we have any direct involvement in terms of distribution of fuel supplies are in some of the North Coast communities and they are in fairly comfortable shape as I understand it. But perhaps the gentleman might be bettec advised to direct his question to either Mr. Ian Strachan or Mr. Mel Woodward. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: fo1 Eaqle River. MR. HISCOCK: :>upplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary, the hon. member With regard to the letter that I wr< te you on July 15th saying that if we did not do something then what would end up happening is that the government would hav.~ to take over the stores in Eastern Labrador like they ha' "' in Makkovik, Nain, Postville and Hopedale. I received a letter from his Parliamentary Assistant October 14th - throe months later - saying that the Northern Development 6177

December 1, 1982 Tape No. 2934 MR. HISCOCK: Division in Goose Bay had been making contact with s1:ores in Eastern Labrador. So if it is not the responsibility of the minister, why is the Parliamentary Assistant looking into an area that is not even his responsibili ·~y either? And the ques.tion I want to ask is if he is tlte Minister for _Northern, Agricultura so -2 and Rural Development, what action is going to be taken now that tne ships ~~rr~ not going in and a quarter of the community does not have any gasoline and fuel?

Are we going to make some arrangements with CN Marine to make sure that there is fuel in there so they can •JO huntinq this Winter, so they can go and get wood suppl i.es and water, what action instead o saying, 'Ol<ay, turn i . over to the companies'? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, the letter that the hon. gentleman refers,to corning from the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) in his capacity as Parliamentary A!; sis lant, I think reflects the concern of this government in relation to all peoples in Labrador.

As a matter of fact, the member for Menihek and a number of my staff have visited not all but most of the communities along the Coa1;t of Labrador over the past sev~ral months to have a look at the situation and apprise themselves and me of the general situation on the Coast of Labrador. But as I pointed out , I have no ~rogrammes available in my department to assist retail operations in the Province be it through a grant or a loan programme.

And in relation to the fu~l, I have no responsibility1and as far as I know neither doef the provincial governrnent1for the distribution of fuel or other supplies on the South Coast of Labrador but rather two commercial operations ,one, the Woodward group of companies and anotheJ caJled Labseaco have been plying the ·.-.raters all Summer, as I understand, in thej r cargo vessels supplying fuels 6178

___::, Iccernber 1, 1982 Tape 2935 NM - 1 Ml~. GOUDIE: down there. What the status of it i: now I do not know. But I would also suggest to the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), who has responsibility for that district, should apprise himself properly and accurately of this situation and take action. That is his job, after all. SOME HON. MEMBEHS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (Ru:;sell): The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A further supplem<'ntary, Mr. Speaker; to the minister again, Labseaco did make representation to the Department of the Environment to have temporary tanks installed because.

Fishery Products no longer has their operation there after December 1 with regard to fuel. They made application for temporary permits so they could put up the tanks and as a result the majority of the people thought that fuel was coming in. But the Department of the Environment did not do it. Did thE · Parliamentary 1\ssistant, or the Mini::ter of Rural, Ac ,ricul tural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) in cc·njunction with the Department of Environment make a special exemption for Fox H . .1rbour? Mn. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. Ml{. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot speak on behalf ol my colleague, the Minister of the E1vironment (Mr. Andrews). I do not think he is in the House now :o I do not know what hjs response will be. But I have alre;dy given my response ir relation to my ministerial responsil·ilities. MI· . HISCOCK: One further suppl('mentary. 6179

December 1, 1982 Tape 2935 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell~ hon. member for Eag Je Ri"er. MR. HISCOCK: A final supplementary, th' I have asked the Minister of Rural, Agricultural a1 •d Northern Development, with reg .• rd to this matter several tines in this I Iouse, and every tine I get up on a sti :ky question concerning Southern Labrador I have always been toLl that his jurisdicti<>n docs not <:orne down into Sou the c·n and Eastern Labrador, Cal< the minister inform me, with reqard to Southern and Eastern ;,abrader•, to whom do I go? Do I yo to the Premier, do I go <o the Minister of Justice?

Why is the minister and his off<cials corning down to Southern and Eastern Labrador if they do not have any jurisdiction and would it not be better i1 the money that they are using in travel go to some other departrr.t' nt? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of RuraJ , Agricultural and Norther11 Devuloprnent. MR. SIMMS: question. MR. NEARY: It is the same You ure not Speaker now, Len. You are nc t Spc ·aker anymore. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Leader of the Opposi •:ion w-ould remain silent for a moment so I can answer his colle1.gue's question I would most certainly <lppreciate it.

I am going back again to the original question asked by the hon. gentleman. I did not say we did not have any 1 espo•1sibli ty down there 1 but rather no responsibility in reJation to retail trade or the distribution of fuel. :r would aleo point out to the hon. gentleman that in his district this go\ernment, in co-operation with development associations in the <:.rea, helped implement one of the best and most efficient Winter trat.sportation systems there is in this 6180

December 1, 1982 Tape 2935 NM - 3 MR . GOUDIE : Province as it relates to tha t kind of a reg ional a1ea . So to indicate that there is no care or feeling on the part of this qoverrunent for people in the Eagle River dis~rict is obviously incorcect . But again,I will reiterate, in the distribution of fuel and othe r like commodities, and in the retail trade, I have no ministerial responsibility for chat particular aspect of our e.:onomy and I do not know if anyone els•~ docs other than through the reqular loans progranunes of which I have no p1ogramme to assist . MH . SP~AKER (Russell) : Mountains .

M.l > • \oJJ\RREN : The hon . memher for Torngat Mr . speaker, my question is to th • · ~tinister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Oeve lopment (l"r . Goudie) also . Could the minister ..tdvise the hon . House if his department has fuel delivered to government stores operated by his department in Northern Labrador without a public tender bl:ing called? MR . SPEAKER : The hon . Hinister of Rural, Agricultural and North er n Development . 6181

December l, 1932 Tape 2936 )'!C - l MR . GOUDIE: No, Mr. Speaker, not that I am aware of. I understood that the fuel in some communities on the North Coast of Labrador, the facili­ ties themselves have been turned ove.r in Nain, for instance, to one M·~lvin Woodward, and his group of companies to supply and stock, and in the case of other depots along the Nr Jrth Coast of Labrador where the distribution of fu<~l has taken place, it has all gone through the public tender and public proposal process. MR. 111/ARREN: Hr. Speaker. MR . SPE AKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is could the minister further advise the hon. House if there · wa~; some fuel oil delivered to the depot in Makkovik _, n mj d-Summer by an individual oiJ company without puhlic tender? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Nc•rthern Development. MR. GOUDIE: As I have said, Mr. Speaker, not that·_ I am awar·~ of, not to any <legree at all, but I will nndertake to check into the matter and see.

I can accurately point out that in the case of Davis Inlet, for instance, where we are responsible for the distribui ion of fuel, commodities were delivered there by one Melvir Woodward's group of companies, of such an inferior quality that the stuff had to be removed and reploced. SOME HON. MEMBERS : IIear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au l •ort. MR. HODDI R: A questic·n for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Retailers throughout the Province 6182

llecember 1, 1982 Ta,nc 2936 EC - 2 1R. HODDER: have complctined and are · :omplaining thctt t,he form:s used for dc·termining whether >r not childre11 's clothing and shoes <tre exempt from .axes are not ·.ldequate. l\s <t r.atter of 1'act, to guote the retailers, ·.hey say that they ure ridiculous! I would ask the minister Lf he intends to issue new forms and will he set up a system which will not make use of carcls or forms, one without the usc of cards or forms? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. tlte Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speake ~~, I must say I find the tone of th<~ hon. member's question some\~ha t disturbing. It seems clear that the Opposition is very much against this proposal that children under the age of fifteen, who are nevertheless above certain si :es, should not get the benefit of -tax-free clothing and ·ootwear. I find that attitude on the part of the Oppo;ition rather regret- table!. They would like clearly to se<' the mechanism we put· in place not work. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! . - pR.

COI,LINS : But I can .1ssure the hon. member that the mechanism we have put in pla•;e has been tried and tested in other jurisdictions whjch a·e faced with the :;arne problem, that we have been in consultation with them .ts to the methods used and to get the .. r assessment of the method, und we have tried to usc I he I >est aspects of the methods they have used. We are pttttillg it in on a trial basis. We expect that ,as time goc~s a Long, we wiJl get suggestions for improvement, and if W<~ do, \V'e will certainly implement them.

But to cast some· doubt on the validity of putting in such a programme, <ts the hon. member's question certainly seems to do, J think is very regrettable indeed. 6183

December :1,1982 MR. SPEAKEH. (Russell) : MR. HODDER: Tape No. 2937 ah-1 The hon. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, we on this side are not against the proposal but we are certainly against the tax. SOME HON.MEMBERS: llear, hear! MR. HODDER: We are told hy ,-etailers across the Province that the citizens, the taxpayers who have been hit with this tax,are not informed as to what is taxed, which has led to disput~s at the cash 'register and Line-ups at the cash registe1 s riqht across this Province.

Will the minister do somc•thi~g to inform the people of this Province of the fulJ impact of the infamous ~Hnisterial Statement, sometime l•udget, that he brought in a coup I e of weeks ago? Will he do something to clear UfJ the confusion not only in the mincls of retailers but in the minds of the citizens of this Province? MR.SPEAKER: DR.COLLINS: The hon.Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I certainly would like to make qreat efforts to clear UfJ the confusion in certain people's minds and I would like to start with the hon. member opposite.

I would like to clarify the confusion in his mind when he referred to he is against this tax which is bc•ing placed upon the oversize but under fifteen yc.1r a<!C;~ ch 1ld. I would like to inform him that there is not a tax on the clothing and footwear of children who are age fifteen or less even though those children in size exceed the laid-down sizes in regulations already sent out. '!'here is no tax on those.

That is the object of this particular move that if a child who i:> fourteen years or less and nevertheless exceeds fourteen X in certain :·.''D"s of cloth i.nq thilt they will nevet theless be able to ;et their clothinq and their footwc~ar free of ta) . 61B4

De<"ember 1,1 'J82 Tape No. 2937 ah-2 DR. COJ,LINS: 1\nd if there is a confusion otherwise in the hon. member's mind, if he wishes to write me a note I will even put it in writing for him. In regard to any other confusion that there might be in th(· citizens'minds,I would like to point out that the vendors, those who arc in the retail trade and actually sell certain goods, they receive updates on a regular basis from the Department of Finance in regard to any changes in the taxation system.

We also have a phone system whereby thcr·e are individuals in the dej•artment available to them at any time they wish to phone in and get information on a urgent basis 1 and that both those lltechanisms are now being used, that is,the tax update mechanism and the availability of telephone communication. MR.IIODDER: Mr. Speaker. ~R.SPEJ\KER (Russell) : The hon. member for Port au Port . MR.HODDER: You know, Mr.Speaker, the minister cannot even listen to a question let alone <tnswer one.

But the confusion in the minds of the people in the building trades and in certain foodstuf[s that arc sold in retail outlets and bouqhL in supprmark!~ts is l:ilat peopl~ just de> not know what eight per cc'nt •1ocs on and wh.tt twelve per cent goes (m,particularly with building materials. Mr.Speaker, thi_s came about because the minister galle no warning or was iLl prepared himself to let people know as soon as the announcement was made. But, Mr,Spcaker, the government, I understand,has not prepared its tax cards.

These are the preqalculated tax forms wl1ich it has been traditional for this government to have always supplied to the retailers. When will the government have these forms ready? MIL SI'El\KEH: The hon. Minister of Finance. DH.COLLINS: Mr. Spec1ker, the hon. member referred to bui.lding supplies . 6185

December 1, 1982, Tape 2938, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: On the day the announcement was made I held a press conference and in thett press conference made available to all the media that attcnted it, and there was the electronic media, there was the published media and so on, the regulations as they applied to building materials. Similar information was made available to the major vendors of building supplies.

I am not sure where the hon. member is getting his facts, but I would have to reiterate that we have written material going out to vendors in regard to this, we have people manning telephones, who are available to give information on a one to one basis, and if the hon. member does have a vendor who is in ,my way uncertain about the application of the regulations, all he has to do is give him the number of the Department of Finance and at least over an eight hour period there are individuals there who can pass on the information and i"lnswer any precise questions they may have. MR. HODDER : Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the member for Port au Port. This will be the final question of Question Period. MR. HODDER: Yes. Mr. Speaker, my information comes from a great deal - I would suggest to the minister that perhaps he should take a trip around town or anywhere in the Province, he should also read the papers and perhaps listen to the Open Line shows. But I would ask the minister, in light of the fact that the St.

John's retailers are upset with the government because of the new taxes that have been implemented, and they have asked the minister to meet with them- and perhaps the minister does not know about that yet - would the minister tell me when he will meet with the St. John's Board of Trade about the matter I have raised, and would he tell me if he will meet with them when that meeting will take place? MR. SI'EAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. 6186

' December 1, l'J82, T1pe 2938, Pac,c 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: Mr. SJ •eake .-, if the hon. member wishes to come to my office~ ,I wiJ L lc tve instructions with my secretary that he can have a look at my appointment book . MR. SPEl\KER{Rlr ~'-..:, The time fnr Question Period has expired. ORDERS OF 'I'IIE Di\Y MR. NEARY: Mr. Si ·eaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hc"1.. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: I move thai the regular Order of Business of this House be su::pendcd for today to discuss a matter of urgent public imporl ance, namely the partial close down of the Bowaters mill in Corner Brook and the resulting layoffs of some 700 direct employees and the loss of another 1,300 indirect .iobs. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. SJ >eake r:. MR. SPEAKER: The ~>n. t ~ President of the Council. MR . MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker ·, nobody discounts the urgency, as the government has rndicated, of the matter that the motion refers to, but in ord8r to have a suspension of the ordinary business of the !lorrse it has to comply with the rules, and I refer Your Honour 1 o Bermchesne, the Fifth Edition, page 92, paragraph 287 defj ting urgency and it says: '"Urgency" within this rrrle cl•>es not apply to the matter itself, but means "urgen •·y of debate", when the ordinary opportunities provided by tl~ rules of the House do not permit the subject to be br"ught on early enough." I submit the rules 6187

December 1, 1982 Tape) 2939 TIC - 1 ·MR. MARSHALL : do permit it to be bought on early enough. '!here ar• · plenty of opportunities. And it goes on to say, Mr. SpeiJker, very significantly in this context,'pub)ic jnterest demands that discussions take place immediately.' Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not really feel in thjs pa rticular case that public inter- est will lend anything to this particular situation,to have a debate on it at this particular time,and I point out that from the f)erfc,rmancc of the Opposition, the Leader of the Oppositic>n (Mr.

Neary) last Friday, his statements which were v~ry much aqainst the public intc!rest, qo to show why this government cannot consent to the motion and says th.1t i 1: is not within the rules. In actual fact, Mr. S<Jeakcr, the hon. gentleman's utterances to date in connection with l;his have dero<Jated from the situation and has lone nothing to help it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. HODDER: l1R. SPEAKER: au Port. MR .. HODDER: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! r!\r. Speaker. The hon. the member for Port Mr.

Chairman, it is my submission that under Rule 281 of Beauchesne, page 92, it is of urgent importance. I would think that the people of Corner Brook would cerlainly like to know what the government's plans are as far as the Corner Brook mill is concerned. The government has been withholding informatiun from the people of Corner Brook and from this House for two full weeks, Mr. Spc ·aker - MR. NEARY: Right. MR. HODDI.R: - and I believe that any infonnation that W< · migl rt be able to drag out of the government in a del 1ate, the people of Corner Brook would 6188

December 1, 1982 MR. l!ODDEH: Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL : MR. SPEAKER (Russel]~ Council. •rape 29 39 EC -· 2 '·crt<< i.nly ar)preciate it, Mr. S >eaker. 'l'he hem. the President of the MR. MARSHALL: 11r. Speaker, this is an important matter. I want :o em~l1asize that the government docs not consider any<hing to be more urgent in this Province today than the :ituation in Corner Brook as well as the situation - SOMY.: !ION. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oli! Order, please! Order, please! - as 1~11 as the situation in Bowaters. So let there be no do11bt about that.

The allegations by the han. gentlema1' when he gets on about the government sittinq on it arc totally without foundation. We are acting in a responsible w1y, attempting, Mr. Speaker, to cret a postponement of that dC'•:ision, and we were precluded from so doing in large part by the irresponsible, unforgiveable and revoltin •J actjons of l~he Opposition last Friday. SOMl': !ION . MEMBERS : SOMl : !ION. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Jlcar, hear! Oh, <>h! Order, please! Order, please! Hr, : ;peaker. The Chair will hear one more argument from the hon, the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: The slime and the filth flowing from the lips of the hon. • rentlC'man. They are still smarting under the fact th.tt the Premier ran away from this Province with informaLion t'tat he had about Bow ·aters. He would not even confide n his Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: Order plea~e! Order, please! 6189

December 1, 1982 Tape 2940 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): I suggest the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) sneak to the point and the motion that he made. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is an urgent matter, it is probably one of thr · few occasions in this House when a matter has been brou·1ht b<!forc the House and the Oppo:;ition asked to have the rules ::uspended to debate a matter of urgent public importance. Whdt could be more urgent than the loss of abo~t 2,000 jobs in this Province right at a time when we can least ;1fford it!' The trouble is, Mr.

Speaker, that the hon. gentleman CIOes not have the courage to have this matter debated in ~ e House this afternoon. And if he does not have the coUJ .tge let him get up and say so. MR. MARSHALL: All the informati.on has been brought before the House. MR . NEARY: All the informati.on is not brought before the House. We had to drag the information - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. WARREN: What information? MR. NEARY: Mr. ::peaker, the trouble is the administration has been sitting on the information for two weeks. MR . WARREN: Shame! Two week:;. ti!R .

MARSHALL: Yet you only used one -third of Quest Lon Peri Ol1 on it. MR . NEARY: One-third of the Question Period. SO~lE HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . SPEAK ER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Today. MR. MARSHALL: MR. NF.ARV: Yes, todav. .11 h Mr. SpeaKer, we w1 not ave an opportunit,-i:he House is clo:;ing on Friday- ·,ru will not have an opportunity to debate this mottter 1 we are on money bills. And the hon. gentleman will not even call the Throne Speech. 6190

Decemb,~r 1, 1982 Tape 2940 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: There is no opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to debate this matter other than to have the regular order of business supspended. And I call upon the hon. gentleman again, I challenge • him to have the courage, to show a little courage in this matter and agree to have this matter debated in the House this ~rternoon. If not, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to Your Honour and to the House that it is a shameful dereli ction of duty on the part of this administration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPL':AKER (Russc :ll): Order, please!

I have been listening to the arc1uments put forth by both sides of the House 4 would have to say th ere is an opportunity on the Order Pape~ if the order is S< called, the Address In Reply, to debate this matter. WhiJc the Chair recognizes that the matter is of some importancc,it does not feel that the urgency of debate is there at this particular time. S0 11E HON. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER: we shall - Oh, no! Oh! rt being Private Members' Day MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I mean,the hon. gentlementhere opposite cannot question the ruling of the Chair.

Ilear the gentlemen there opposite when Your Honour is givin 9 a ruling,making comments of the nature which is questioniug Your llonour',s ruling and I invite tllem Ln the inten•st of parli<~mentary democracy to withdraw their remarks and apoligize to Your Honour. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MH. SPEAKER: Henr, hear! Order, please! The Chair was not aware and was not listening to <my comments that were made from the other si<le , ·so I did not hear any conunents that were made. It bein~r Private Members' Day we shnll move on to Motion No. 14 , which was moved by the 6191

December 1, 1982 Tape 2940 PK - 3 MR . SPEAKER (RUSS <!ll) : hon . member Eor the Strait of Belle Isle (~1r . R<Jberts) 01nd which was adjourned last day by the hon . member for Dellevutl (Mr . Callan), and he has ten minutes left to SJ~ak. MR . CALLAN : Thilnk you, Mr . Speaker . I have used ten minutes and I have ten minut es remaining, Mr . Speaker . Tn the first ten minutes, last week ,I referred to the fo~ct that there is amp le room in this Lcgislatulc when you compare it,as I said,with the siz ·~ of the Legisl a tur c in Nova Scotia . 'I'his Legislatun• is quite large . There is lots of room here for television cameras and radio and television microphones and so on . 6192

"' De<·ember 1, 1982 Tape No. 2941 MJ - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: So I hr space is not an argument ag.1inst bringing in the elec1 ronic media, cost is not an arqument against it 1 even though some members on the government side tried to usetl that argument, because as the member for the Strait of Belle• Isle (Mr. E. Roberts) who introduced resolution 14 said in his i nt.roductory remarks,in introducing the resolution, if the electronic media wanted to cove .r tlte live sittings <)[ the Legislature, then they were welcome 1o do so but at their own expense. So, the first ten minutt·s last Wednesday, Mr.

Speaker, I did spend more or less rcfut.ing and rebutting the several phony arguments that were usccl by the former Speaker, the Minister now f01: Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. L. Simms). Mr. Speaker, to end off in the next tcm minutes that I have today, I war1t to say, Mr. Speaket ·, that we on thil' side are fully .1.ware at this point in timn that obviously this resolution wi.ll not be. passed. Not only will it not be passed 1 but it will not be supported by anybody on the governn•ent side of the l!ouse.

And as I said last week, the reason is obvious: It is the Premier who made tha l: decision and who tc•ld the governmen l: members in caucus, 'No, we are not bringinrr in the electroni.c media.' Now, why would the - MR. J. CARTER: Untrue. MR. CALLAN: How do you know, you were in your savory patch? - why would Lhe Premier not want the electronic mcdja brought into the chamber? Why? The answer to that qcsb m, Mr. Speaker, is quite simple. You see the Premier is t 11e k i .nd oF a person who wants to •:all his own shots. lle w<~nts to select his own forum. MR. CAHTER: IIOW do you know? MR.

CA ~ LAN: 'l'hat is why over the past three 6193

December l, 1982 Tape No. 2941 MJ - 2 MR. W. CALLAN : ye~rs, Mr. Speaker, we have seen the Premier calling these weekly, bi-woekly, bi-monthly, regular, very, very regular, press con ferenct•s where he lays out what he! wants to say. And of course, Mr. Speaker, we havt· also :;een the Premier, List yeRr when he was invited by the university to go over and take part jn a with the then Leader of the Liberul party/ refuse to qo 6194 debate

llecember 1, 1982 1'ape No. 2942 so - 1 MR. CALLAN: bJ lhc university. Why? Because olCJain that was not his forum. lie wants to provide his own forum. And here in the Legislature, since the Premier does not know what questions will be asked during the Oral Question Period and what will be coming up from time to time in other debates, the Premier does not want to be caught off guard, he wants to keep the electronic media ot1t of the Legislature. You sec, Mr.

Spe~kcr, not only is the P1emier a master at creating his own forum «S far as it comes to reguJur press confen~nces, the Premier is on record a! chastising the CBC - 'Un.less you'- MR. NEARY: Do it"'' way. MR. CJ\LLl\N: -'do it '''Y way, unless you present the interview the• way that I want y• •u to present it, then I will not be inte1·viewed at all'. MR. ROBERTS: I am go ng to sulk. MR. CALLAN : am go,ng to sulk and I will not grant .my more interviews to you. And just before the Question Period ended, Mr.

Speaker, som<'body made mention of the .QE<~n Line programmes and a jeer went up from the government side, the same jeer thut we have he· ord 0 11 many occasions in the past several weeks. It seems rather strange to me, Mr. s~ ~ker, that it is only in the lasl three or four weeks that th< members on the government side ::cern to be turned off with the Open Line prograrrunes, because it is the government members and the Premier who are now on the ,-opes. MR. TULK: Do they not like 'Bas' any more? MR.

CALLAN: Well,thcy say Open Line programmes meaning, of course, not both but one, the obvious one we know about.- But, Mr. Speaker, whether the Premier and his colleagues allow the electronic meclia in this l,egislature or not is not ieally all that important 1 bec1use the truth will out. People are beginning to see through,now, the tr<msparency of the 6195

December l, 1982 Tape No. 2942 SD - 2 MR. CALLAN: Premier, the Premier who has pulled many colossal bluffs on th~m, 'l'he latest one, of course, was the phony issue that the April 6th election was fought over whe n the real issue was luck of mone y , lack of a budget and so on. Bu t the people ar L· beqinhing to see through the Premier. They know bow transparent he is. And in the next couple of years, Mr. Speaker, whethe~ we have 6196

·:!:.._ December 1, 1982 Tape 2943 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: electronic media in this Legislature or not, other opportunities will be provided. For example, the Le9islature closes on Friday, the 3rd., on Monday of next week I will be out in one of the high schools in my district because under the new high school programme, in the Grade X class there is a subject called Democracy.

And of the seven high schools in the district of Bellevue, of the seven high schools there I already l1ave in vita tions from four of them to come !ld spend an hour ·)r whatever with these Grade X students so that they can 1sk questions, and so on, about democracy. I\nd I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that other men1bers on both ::ides of the House will be invited out to the schools in their districts,w1cre they can be interrogated ancl of course, give information and be asked questions about democracy. And jn the last sever~L days we have seen, and even the students in Grade X, and the students at the university, Mr.

Speaker, are beginning to see •lOW the lack of democracy in this Province. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), becam:e he has fo~voured his own district and other Tory districts so much,is too embarrassed to table his roads programme, a list that hu s J •een tabled for the past three years, but that is not cut ,1ff• We cannot let the people see what we are doing. We are not su1 :prised, Mr. Speaker, we are not surprised that the electro1ic media are not permitted in the Legi_slature. This governmeat is slamming every door.

They pump out thr~ir own propaqand<t, their own leaflets, through the Jnlormation Service :, and, of course, regular p.ress conferences, •:hey pump it out themselves at taxpayers' ex] >ense, most of it, but the people are not bej ng fooled. So whether you brin · r in electronic media or not will not matter. That is the .mswer, Mr. Chairman. It 6197

December 1, 1982 Tape 2~43 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: will not matter. Because not only do we have the Open Line •rogranunes where people have an . opportuni ty to express th•·ir op lniom: and so on, an d their frustrations, but there are excellent writers in the da ily papers, in the weekly papers, <.~nd th r· other magazines., One of the best writers, r1r . Speaker, one of the best writers that we have in all of Nc•\vfoundlnnd t odny is a gentleman who was born .tnd raised in the historic district of Bellevue , 111here the Premier was born - MR. TOBIN MR.

CALLA N : What ? - an the last I resident of the University and other ~ that I have me .tioned . MR. SIMMS: The nember for Bellevue . MR. CALLAN: But his 111riter, Mr . Speaker , that I am referring to, was born in the distric·t of Dellevue, in Arnold's Cove and raised .here, ! am Lalking,of cour~e,aboUt a man who is an excellent writer and has been given that recognition,especially in recent monlhs . ~nd he has a 6198

December 1, 1982, Tape 2944, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: biting wit about him, a biting wit in his humour. Just let me quot;c· what this gentleman wrote. Mr. Speaker, this was not wrjtten over the last couple of weeks, when every Newfoundlander has seen that Tory times are hard times this was written over a year ago. This

article was written on September 5, 1981, it was written over a year ago, long before the April 6th. el(~ction. The man who wrc>te this itc ·m said, 'When the goodies present or prophe!lied are on the go it is the chief business of this government to take all the credit, but when there are showers of nasties, this government ruptures itself to place the blame elsewhere.' so true of this government, Mr. Speaker. So true, Now, Mr. Speaker, in the last thirty seconds that I have let me say that this gentleman, this wrifcr from the district of Bellevue will be writing many other articles.

And what he saw a year ago, and what those of us on this side of the House saw a year ago, and what the people in the district of B(·llevue saw in the '81 by-election, and, of course, again this Spring in the general election, what the people in Bellevue saw, and defeat~d the Premier three times - the Premier has never been defeated three times anywhere else in this Province7 three times he has been defeated in his own birthplace, in the district of Bellevue where he was born. Why? Because the people in Bellevue know the Premier best.

And once it starts to filter out to the rest of the Province and they see what kind of a man this man really is, then, of course, the tide is gone. MR. STAGG: Read this. MR. CALLAN: I saw that

article last week, someone was waving it around. I have hundreds horne, do you want me to bring in some to you? So, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion let me say that I support this resolution introduced by the 6i99

December 1, 1982, Tape 2944, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN : m(•mber for the Strait of Belle Isle(Mr . Roberts) , knowing full well th.:~t it will ne ver be passe d by the government on the other side . By the way, Lhe famous Newfoundlander I was talking about, everybody can guess his name, I an sure, he is Ray Guy who was born ;,nd raised in Arnold 's Cove ·. DR. MCNICHOLAS : t-11 • Speaker. MR . SPEAKER(J\ylward) : Tl•e hon . the member for St . . John 's Centre . SOME HON . MEMBERS : lit ·ar , hear ! OR. MCNICHOLAS: ,.,,. .

Speaker, last week I was completely relaxed here in 11y seat, alm,.,st lulled to sleep by the S\-1eet melodious tone:. of my hon. friend from Tocngat C.lountains {Mr . Warren) and I suddenly bt ·c ame wide awakt · on hearing St . John's Centre m• ntioned among other di:;tr) :ts . My hon. friend said that I clo not take

part in dcb.tte, or that I did not in this term, and I must admit he w.~s right, and I decided then tha L one of my New \ ,~<n: s Resolut ions would be that I am going to take part much more in debate in this coming term . ·laybe 6200

December 1,1982 'l'ape N< •. 2945 ah-1 DR.McNICJJOLAS: th<~ hon. members on the other side will not like it all that much. rn fact,maybe my friends on this slde will not like it all that much either. Jn fact,maybc the Premier will not like it becausc I do not SJ:•eak very much, but usua U y when I do I speak my 'mind and it might not necessariJy be just what people like. SOME liON. MEMBERS: II ear, hc'ar! DR.McNICHOLAS: I urn n<•l going to apologize for my speakinq abilities.

I suppc •se most of my life has been spcnt in perfecting, if that i:,; th•" word, my surgical and diagnostic skills, But I think r co11ld have also done a little bit more practice on the ~ 1ap .~x. I have always admired orators <~nd I always spend con:~iderable time hC'r·e,particularl,. when there are good spe<1kers on the op 'ositc side and on this side spe<rkinq '.l'here are good SlJ!akers orr both and I admire their abiJLty 1 some to speak for · twenty minutes very cleverly a11ol say nothing and some to speak and say Ll lot.

And I am . : l so well aware that there ure many with what I would call bird brains who speak absolute dribble for twenty minutes. SOME IlON.MEMBERS: llear, h•!ar! DI~. MeN TCIIOLAS : I have <:orne to realize since I came to this hoJr. llouse that i·t :i :; rea] ly no handicap whatever to k• <W I Lttlc about i1 sul.J ject •1r nothing about a subject 1 you c.tn still qet up and speak for twenty minutes. I was amused at the comments of my iton. friend for Torngat Mountains (Mr.Warrcn),that I should advocate TV because the con ;titucnts in St .. John's Centre CC>uld see how I perform.

Now, I clo not th i.nk the constituents of mine in St. Jolm' s Ccntre could ·:are less how I perform here. I think they are far more Lnt • !res led in how T 6201

December l, 19 8 2 'l'upc No . 2 94 5 ah-2 DR . McNICIIOJ.l\S : per form in Ca!Jot Street <1nd in Central Street an ti in :p1 ·ingdille Street .md in 13on<lventurc Avenue and in every ot her st reet and avenue in St . John • s Centre . J realize onLy to • well that ns a mc!mbcr or this hon . House one js a "'ember for all off Newfoundland and Labrador . an<.l as ,, bo ·kbenchcr thilt is 1aryely thcoreLical . I think my milin i'uncl1on us a member is to look after my constituents i.n St .

J< ~< m • s Centre . 1 tid nk 1 rlo it to the best of my abllity and I think anybody who does not will pay the pr~ce fc r it next time around ,as many and some members in Lhis 110n . llousc h<1v0 clone so already . Now my hon . fri~nd for Bellevue {Mr . Callan) mentioned th 1t we hi•ve so few .arc;uments on this side that we can onlt speak for five or ten minutes . Now , I would sugqcst t<> hi ••l that he ShQuld digest more editions of llansur<l e nco • Lh i.s f.202

December 1, 1982 'l'u.pc 2946 :EC - ;L DR. McNICHOLAS: 'l'ht'H! ar< · ve •·y few speeches in llansard of twerrty minutes clurati >n that you could not really condense • and have a much IJ ett<~r presentation at five or three rrrinutc ;. SOMJ:~ HON. MEMB r :RS: l-Iear, hea r· ! DR. McNICHOLAS : Now, , < th ng that has struck me for a long l:ime h; that we tend b> get into a cocoon or an ivory to wer or whatever you lil:e here. We go out to our constit rents and most of •:hem will tell us we an: Cjreat people, i>ut I wonder do we- rea ily know what the qencral public think of us as politicians.

Last nighL, I was reading the latest edition of th( 11ed:ical Po :c>t. Now, this is a MacLean Hunter newspaper for the •:anadian medical profession. It comes out every week and this is the November 16th edition, two weeks aqo, and I w.i Ll t<tble this paper afterwards. 1!here is an i.nteref; ting account in the editorial on the Ottawa by-line em a recent Gallup poll, and if J may, . I will read a few t:xtracts. First, of course, I will have to read the l'ittJ e one praising the doctors.

It reads as follows: ''It r>robably came as lit ·tle or no surprise to most do• :tor ~. when a recent Gall up poll suqgested the avera c;· · Car•ad:i .an trusts his or her doctor above everyone el ~"!. 1\sked to rate the honesty and ethical standards ol a number of professions, 59 per cent of the respondents ~.Jid ihat their trust in their doctor was high or very hi rh." Now, this is the August survey of more than 1,000 adults across the country by Gallup International ol · Toronto - done in Auqust.

And in that survey there were police officers, engineers, university teachers, psychiatri~ ;ts, l-awyers, journali sts, business executives, building contractors, members of Parliament, advertising executives and labour union leaders, 6203

Decen 1be r 1, 1982 Tape 29 46 r.c - 2 DR . McNICIIOLl\S : and that is l:he order in which they carne in the surv•y . 1 think, Mr . Speaker , it is of particular inte re ;t h•·rc thott MPs wero !<O far down the list, trailing bui l.din · cont 1 actors and le adin g only the ad men and union l.>o ss • s. MJ•s were rated high or very high by onJy 14 r>er cent o the sampling, \.,.hiJe 46 per cent thought them average . nd 39 per cent had them down as low or very low.

It goes on to say, "Rodney Dangc•rficld would feel right at h• me on the hill . lie is a portly pop-eyed comedian who lon't qet no resrect . llarsh words? Do not bl:unc u .. l, blame John r.vans, the OttuwD Centre MP who sai ·l rec ·.m tly that MPs arc losinq the publ i.e 's respect. 6204

December 1, 1982 'l'<lpc 21)47 PK - 1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: p t•oplc 'ncrc ' tsingly see MPs as a bunch of clowns'', Mr. EV<lns s< i.d. ''Mind you his remarks were delivered Ln the context of the first s<•ssio l, of the current Parliament which has been one of the most nast iest, most brutish, and just plain bitchy sessions I can r"call. Tempers on the CJOVernment side have been hiqh because of the continuing Lnability to do .1nything about the ·~:· ,, J .. ly.

Tempers on the •lpposition bench·~s i1ave been high because of the tremendous lrustrations the Tories have exper1enccd in the wake of that brief taste o[ power~ And lis len to this:."It can make for '!noel T.V. bul: it does not make for good legislation'.' I would like to l:able that paper. SOME HON. MEMBER~;: Hear, hear! DR. MCNICHOLAS: Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the speakers on the other side mentioned la •;;t week that we ·are being coerced by the Premier, that we w;re being dragged by our lapels and told what we should do on this motion.

MR. •rlJLK: That is no •t true for you I Paddy I, but it is true for most of them. lilR. MCNICIJOLJ\S: Now, Mr. Speak~r, I have been a member for the p11st three years and I have never been coerced- MR. TULK: It might be true for the Minister of Rural, Agricu I tural and Northern Devclopr.<ent (Mr. Goudie) . OH. MCNICHOLAS: who has been coe 1·ced. and I say exactly what -and I do not know of any member T say exactly wbat I feel in caucus, feel at any time. And I i1ave never bc< ~n coerced by . my body on this s ide. MR. TULK: feet that is why. DR.

MCNICIJOLAS: You ar~ too strong on your We discuss l~ings like any other party and we come to an agreement and,! suppose,really,if there was a fundan1ental matter of principle and we could not 6205

December 1, 198 2 ·rape 2947 PI< - 2 OR. MCNICHOLAS : 9et our colleu'J"es , or certainty if I coul<.i not, I knov1 e x a~tly what I would do .. I am quite happy here . I have never been in timlua ted or coe t·ced in anyway . MR . STAGG : ~nd never will b ~ . MR . TULK : It is hard to b"!Ucv c. lf we could only see the sau:~ approach by the Minister of Rural , N:]r cultured a'l(~ :-t>rt:hern Devel<)i:.tent (t-!r . Gouclie). ~R . MCN ICHOLA S: Now , Mr. Sp~nker, I su pp ose T .V . is inevi table h• ·re , r am sure it is qoing to come .

I am gointJ to vote aqainsL, boca tse I honestly believe th at it is wrong, and I w • 11 q 1 vc yoot the reason ,. It is no t a reason that anybody '·l se ltas <J i .ten,. :>ly honc •;t reaHon for voting again st th ls esol Jtion is that we h.1 ve a majority of five and a half p!oplc to on! on that side . MR. NEARY : ~ lot of them UJ'·! half size . SOME HON . ME l-tB ERS : Oh, :>h ! DR .MCNICHOI~S : And it is just uS simp le as that, it is forty -four to eight . ~nd C think it 1s absolutely wron g that - MR. NEARY : DR .

MCNICIIO~ : -- ---- It is not the quantity it is t~e quality . -I th i.nk it is absolu te) y wr onq that the back -room hoys jn any T .V . stati on can c.:ut and s:lice \~hat goes on here so that the • pposj tio n, who arc only l·icJht, will get aboot equal time to what Wl ' with forty- rour .,.d U get her e. AN RON . l1EMBER : Right on ! 6206

December 1, 1982 ~·ape No. 2948 MJ - 1 DR. P. MCNICHOLAS: ~lay!Je in th'e next century, when th•· I,iberals or l he NDI' be<]ir to com<' up as the Opposition, wi'l be a time t<J think about it aqain. Mr. Speaker, before I sit down I want to thank tlw hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. G. Warren) for stimulating me into getting up on my fe< ·t today. You are geincj to hear more from me in this con1 in<J year. In the mfantime, I want to take this opportunity of wishing you all on this si Je and the other side a very hilPI'Y Christmas ~tnd <tll the b •st in 1CJB3. SOMI': liON. MEMBERS: 11 !ilr, hear! MR.

E. lllSCOCK: M ,-. Speaker. tf~..:.... .§£.! ~1\KER _i!3~ el _]::) _: 'I' 1e hon. the member for Eagle River. ~ . l.)]_§~~~CJS : M•·. Spr<Jkcr, I just want to sp<•.tk briefly on this m<)tLon rC'qardinq havinq media coveraqe of thl' llou,;c, allowinq the electronic media to plug into our li Vl' debates insteu•J of hi1vinq to go upstairs and be interviewed and be interrupted in our speeches with notes cominq in across the fl•Jor. uskinq us if we could be interviewed. So, Mr. Speaker, for no oth< r reason than that then to st t ~~am I ine the House of /\ssmc bly here.

Also, in reqard to the other par·t, the member For St. John's Centre (Dr. P. McNicholas) ended up sayinq thitt he wus not qoinq to speak because he was off in a doze and it was only when he heard the name St. John's Centre~ that it woke him up and spurred him on to get into the debate. Milybe, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the main re<tsons why we• should have the T.V. in the House, to let the people in thjs Province realize how many people there arc i11 r.he qovernmcnt snoozin<J o f"f, particularly the St. John's members. Becanse, Mr. Speaker, witll regard 6207

December l, 1982 'l'clP< ' No . 294 8 MJ - 2 11R . E. HISCOCK : to the 1 i V<' <:OVCrilqC 0 f the City Council in City llnl 1 - MR . J. DINN : /\t leilsL we •·un in our own rc ·;pN· I·<>. MR. HISCOCK: 1\t le'-tst I .un ,, Canadian , nol lik·· the member for St . J<•hn '~. Ccnt11 (Dr. 1'. t-1 cNichol.:~s) . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh , oh ! MR . IIISCOCK : So i r yuu wont to take plutJs . t-tr . Speaker, with reqnrd to the T .V. - MR. P. S'l'AGG : 1\ pnint of ordc .'r, Mr . Speaker. MH . ~,.!·:~-K~ ·~. Qyl ~~~T~I) : 1\ r>< ·int or <ll"llr'r , the hon. t.hc member for Steph~nvillc . MR . STAGG : Mr .

Spc<tk< ·r, T dCJ not knO\" if I heard the hon . member c ·rrcct ly, but did he indicntc th.lt one of the members or th'· llnuse i.s not i.l Cnnadia n' ? Is that what the hon . member l'hlid , int.lic aLcd I hnt the people of Newfoundl .. md have cl ··ctet.l n ron i<tncr l<> the llousc of Assembly? SO ME liON . M F.MI II::RS : 'l'hu1 ls wlr,•t he :;<lid . --- ---- -··-- MR. STAGG: O.r is the h~m. rucmbcr s<~ying that because a person spc.tks w th nn accent th<tt is not <tn indigenou~ accent th~t he is n torclq~cr? Is thaL what the hnn . tncmbcr is S< oyinq T Ill< •ul d 1 j kc ror it tu be cl..1rif ied, Mr .

Spcnk< r, I. Cil\lse I thi. rk it i.s :1 'ft'C>Ss insull . MR . HISCOCK : Me . spe.:~kc.r . MR . SPEAKER : To that print of order, th1) h011. the member for. 1 Hfl< · tUvcr . MR. HISCOCK : Mr . Speakt r, it is not o poinl of order . T think i I ia poinl of rc.c<>rd of knowin4 thai the hon . member f<>l" : t • • 1 hn':; ccnLn :- d(l<·s h.•vc n nritl!'ih passport and docs nul hav <1 <:m ,tdi .tn mw, lml css he h.ls I old it of late . 6 ~ 0 8

Dc c:embcr J, 1982 'l.:tpc No. 2948 MJ - 3 Ill~. 1'. MCNICIIOLl\::: Mr. SJH'dkt·r·, to thai:. point of order:-. Mf{ SPJ·;l\KER (1\ylwurd): To that point of order, the hon. th·· member for St. ,Johr 's Centre:. IW. MCN ICllOLI\S: Mr. Speaker, I do not have a llr i 1:. ish passport. l never had a Jlritish passport . 6209

December 1, 1982, Tape~ 2949, Page 1 -- i.ipb DR. MCNICHOI.J\S : AI the present time I have a Canadian passport. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: 1~ that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (1\y~wat·~ •rc, that paint of order, the han. the Minister of P·~blic · Work:;. MR. YOUNG: I think, Mr. Sp~aker, you should rule on it. MR. HISCOCK: T} tcre is no such rule. MR. YOUNG: Yt ·s, the rc is a ruling, Mr. Speaker, because you are nJt allowed to become u member of the llouse of Assembly unles s you are a Canadtan citizen. MR. DINN: lie shoulcl withdraw. MR.

YOUNG: If the h•m. gentleman is - shall I use the word? - ig m •r<:tn t enough l:o not know the difference, an educi.iled ignorant 1nan, I think he should withdr~w the remark . MR. HISCOCK : Mr. Speaker, to the

part I would - MR. SPEAKER: 1'o the point of order? MR. HISCOCK: -: never try refer.r inq it othL' r than one of the m·nislers ended up saying, 'being born in a district'. l\nd 11any members in this House are not born - MR. SP~:AKER: To the point of order? The hon. the member for Eacrle 1· i ver. Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: You are speaking to the point of order? MR. HISCOCK: Yes, I am speaking to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: - -- The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK : Th·~re arc~ many people in this llouse who are not actuaJ ly Jiving Jr wer·~ born in their districts, and the hon. the ntembtr for 3t. Jolm's c~ntre(Dr. McNicholas) is an 12xample. Wjth regard to his natio11ality, it was my 6 21 (I

Doc<•rnbcr 1, )982, ·ro~pe 2949 , Page 2 - - apb t!_R..:.J!JSCOCK_ : under · Lan ui ng that he did not have his Canauian c~tizcn;hip . r ;)m quite proud to know th<1t he docs Mvc h a,s Can tdian ··iti~enship , and I applaud thut . 'l'hercl •rc, M ·. Spe.aker, I rom Lhe point of view of c larificntlon r \~ill \.,rit adra\o/ the T<:!mark . M~ ..:_§PI\_?\KER_(!' f}:"'!lJ"d I..:. To thai. point of order, the hon . Lhe member fc r l·:.:~qJ ·• River· (l'lr . lli sco• ·

k) has corrected the st.:1tcmcnl th<•l he rnH.Ic an I J rul<.' th.at the po1nL of order is t•tkon c.lrc o C. 'l'he hon. t 11e member for Eagle niver. 1'1R . lllSCOCK : ---·· Well , I di. f s<~y, Mr. !"peaker, that the member for St . .tohn ' s C<-nt••~ (Dr . McNicholas l was saying Lh<~L he wus t·njoyin'l •• reHLful period .:1nd whc·n he heard St . John '::; Cc·nlre m11nlion··d it provo:ed him int r.~ speaking . I was s<lyinq, also , thc:~t I here ;:~rca good many members in SL. John 's, in pnrU ;u l:u·, who h.:1vc o1 restful pt•riod- St . John 's Norlh(l'lr . Co.r·t··

r) nnd <1 f··vJ other people . Probnuly it h.Js to clo 111ith the decor am of th e !louse and the level of rlqbntc . t would not <trgue '"ith that . But I would say, ~1r. Speo.k·•r , th.at if the a·esidcmts throughout tho Province si"lw som ·: of the members. on both sides , how we <.:arry un , th<•y wonl cf prob.1bly be· a .l lttlc bit disgusted , as they ore with the n., t.ion:. 1 levnJ or <•over11men t. Wi.tl"t 1 ~~g<~rd to that 1 would also qo as for as to sny Lhat thnre rc a lot of th~ngs that the residents of St .

John '~; Ccn re nr.e concernc·d about, pottl.cuJnrly llousinq , low inc<)fll< hou ::inq , h.:~ving to see all the ;1rcn dcst roycd next to City lfnll and not rcbuil t, continuolly 6 21 1

December l, 1982 '1\"lp, No . . ~950 SD - 1 MI L HISCOCK : --- sec l nl) ho• tscs It• that o.1 rc.:t boat dcd up , becominc; fire traps anti rnsidcn t s I ivlnq on bot h sides wondering \"hat is qoinq t > happ•:n . 1\ t so with re•Jard to ~1oncton , ltali,.ax and uthcr 1 LI'•Jcr .treas c•f the 1\tlantjc Provinces having lor<JC convenLlom cc nt.rcs , do we hour th{ · members from St . John 's atlvocati.nq th<•t we ltavc a lar<)c convention centre of 5,000 or n•>rc? II<> WI.! hear them <H..Ivo.;atc that? 1\ncl the anSivt ·r i.s, Mr . S >eakcr, they nrc so comforta ble in their ~:eats - "1R .

TULK : 'l'ha . is r: i CJht . HR . HISCOC~ : - rcali;:incJ Ll ta t they 1vi 11 conlinu<' It> 'l'~t: rp-o•I•'C'I• d 1~lt.h Uw CcmH•·•··ll i.ve <JOV<>rnrnenl that they do nCJt <Jive thv rep• cst.:ntJ • ion tltJL i~ nec<.lcd , Mr . !lpcakcr . .MR. MCNICIIOLJ\S : A p >int ol or<lct , ,.,r . Spcnkct· . MR: SPEAKER (Aylward} : A p>int ol ordt:t , Lhc ho n. mcrn bC'r for St . Jc -hn's Centrt :. fo1R . TULK : All the hc•n . mcttober for St . Joh n' s North (Mr . C.trtcr) docs i:; <Jl"<>w .1nd sr i fl HitVnry . DR . t'4CNtCIIOL/\S : Hr .

Sp<.!«kt ·r , cvc·ry time JOt ur I (.!XCC~pL the last tim< , r h.tvc spoken "lOut tltc downto1vn areu 1n my district, and about hr>uses l>cincr torn do1o~n ilnd the co ncern I have for: that <~nu the necessity to have m• •rc housi nq . tt is in llans.:~rd . If tile hon . member imt•Ut.:s t !tat I dicJ nuL state tha i. he is .tb•.olut<•ly in•:orrcct and 1 ask him to withdraw . 1-iR . IIISCOt 'K: 'I'O Lhat poin L o I order , ~lr . Spea ker . M R . SPEI\.Kl· :H : •ro the point ol on.lcr , th<: hon . member for F:a<;l c IH vcr . MR . HISC0CK : Mr .

Spcak<·r: , T must say , spNtkin•J about emotion, r an r.:~thcr surprised nt Lh u rises I am qct tiny out of the other s1c h ~. Mr . Spcak•:r, I dhl not in any way make a slur on the member fur St.. . John 's t'o ntrc (Dr . ~lcNic holas}, that he is not doinq his iob . ~hot I am snyin<J is tho~t the housing in Lhc do,.,nt,wn t:<>rc: is in dCJ•lnr,,IJlc cunditi<u~o 'l'he 6 21 ~~

nccr•ltlbf\)• ) 1 1 1}82 '1' 1 pc No . 21'J' 0 SD - 2 f-1R . IIT ~COC.K : ......_ -·---- m!ml>cr ltns • poken on it several Urns . It i!'; unfnrLunate he i~ noL in tl e Cabinet, has no i.n lu(lncc over the Minister or llousinc;, the member for Jl1ount f'e, rl (Mr . Windsor) . l\nd in thnt r !gar• , Mr . Speaker, there j s no point or ot·dcr but I wouJcl Sill th. t he has the sincerity of h i.s cr>n!';L i Lucncy but he is not b ·ing listened to by the Cabinet. nnd the hou!;inq situation i; and I think you will aqr cc with me - 111 SL. .Joh n's it is still deplori'll>le .

MH SP \•:AKER (/\ylword) : To thnt point of ordcr , I rule th · ro i:: a di.ff~n~nce of opi n ion l>c 1.ween t\..ro hon . members . ·rh· · Cha1r i::; also h.1vincJ difTicult\ in rclnting tht • housing situuLi•> n in SL. .Jnhn 's Centr! to l ris particular mot ion. So T would usk Lhc hon. member· fur t·:ilCJ I• River (Jil r. Hiscock) i r lw W()UJd di ·····=\ hinH cl (' tc. Lite' moli<>r <ll h.tntl. 'J'hc h<>n . mn1 11b<' r r or t:.tq le ru vcr . Ml~ . 'l'OUJ N : 'u11 h01vc l>u• ·n shot down t\..rice . t4R.

IILSCOCK: - ---- - ,,q l h reCJ..Jrcl to heing :;hot down do not p.trLi.t:ul.ll·fy 111ind br,i .nq !;hot J••wn or wh ;-.rcver . But would 621 3 .•

December l, 1982 'l'apc .'CJ~l NM - l MR . HISCOCK : say, r-1r . ~reaker, thu t when a member gets up to speak and three or four other members jump up, then obviously he m rst be hittin g a sensiLi ve nerve . I would also like Lo sny , Mr . Speaker , that if we had (Jartral 'l'V Ln this llousc, because if i-t is going to l.lc an cxpcr sc, Jartia l covcraqc, if we are qoinq to get in Lo expense al t ri::; Lime, I, for one, do not aqrce with the mo tion, if we .:1 e qoinq to <Jel inlo major CaLJiL.'lJ ventures .

But as w.::; po ntcd ouL, by buildinq the new Confederation lluildjmJ , • r the exLen::;ion, we urc qoinq to move thi s llouse < own o the fi rl:i 1 floor, and if Lha t is qoinq 1 n be clone, Nr . Spenk<:r, i 1 cnu I d be done in Lh.1 t: manner then . we arc not suyi11q j t ha!i to be done overnight. I would 10 l:io [;:tr as to ;ay Lhut I believe very strongly that we Sh< ·uld put: u fr.cezc on this new extension to the bui I dinq, anti there is nothinq wr.onq with the present Assembly here . !Jut, Mr . Speaker , with re<Jard to the 1'V coverage, ,,nd the c: .posurc, we huve residents in St(lphcnvillc , in St .

Mill ·y's-' J'IH• C. op(•s , in SL . ll o~ l."bc, iu ollwr .tr.c.:.u. , .Labrador .md l·'ogo, ~.Ito wou.l .tl like Lo know how their mombcrs are carry~nq out th< ·i:r duties . Wh.:~t Ll1o quvcrnmenL is sayinlJ , what the llonsc of J\s ;;embly is,J ,ow iL opcrat...: s, whut is the Serqeant-at-1\rms, \vhy docs he sit thor<: and carry the Mace, what docs the "'ace symbo I i zc, ... hat is Lhe roLe of the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, the Committee of Supply? l\nd they woaalcJ like Jo know ..1 Jlttlc b.iL more about thuL wh ereas now, Mr. Spc.akcr, Lhcy lo not - <Ill l:.hcy have is 62 14

December 1, 1982 'l'i)Jle 295] NM - 2 t-1R . IIIS COCK: llere and Now, ;md 1 few of the other reports that are done em the radio stat ion. Because the NTV Stiltion does not qc t int n all ,11: eas of this Province . So, Mr .

Speaker, 1 for one , do support che motion as lo!lq as it doe :: not c..tuse any undue expense and also as long as the mediu thc ••tSf'lvc-s are \-'illing to pa .rtakc of qettiJtq invo lved .and ab: orbinq the expense themselves . flu I T would say, Ml • Speaker, if \oJe did have TV covc1 aqc today, and the Oppc •sition ended up asldnq thaL all lousines >:, even this mot Jon be suspended Lo debate 1ho West Coast Lo find ou L, Mr .

Speaker , t:ll ;t t: muny, mon y peopl ·' in this Province, p<Jrticularly on th v West t:oas t, would be appalled , and they would also be .:tppalled at Lhe 111embers for the west Coast wh o have not spoken out on this . And there is not one ·member for tho Wo::t Cou.st in his seat: now other lhan the r>.:trliamenLary Sccret.ocy to the Minister of Rural, Aqricul tunll .and N< •r.thern Devc Lopment . 1\nd I would li .kc to know why is the rarli.Jmcntary Assistant to the Minist< :r oC Rural, A(Jri<'ultur ~ll and Northern Deve lopment not dO\o~n in Carol ina <Jl! o. !iOME liON . MEMBERS: MR .

TULK : take him. lien r, ht .1r ~ lie woul< • not t. kc him, boy . tie would not 6215

De ce mber 1, 19 8 2 'l'.tpC 29~2 r:c -· 1 MR . IIJSCO~K: So , ~tr . Spcnkcr, the mot:i.OJ • is no t the most enrth-f;huttcrinq motio11 that hns hccn brought in on this side hut il: i~ a motion th.:~t we h.:~v· been bri nqin<.J up for the pn: L: scvPr.Jl ye.:tr s with the idea of makinq - the l'n~mie1 is oue, (nr exrunptc , who has sa t.d he t.:tkes th;! C:Db i net and has Cabinet mecti ngs in Corner Brook and Cioo>se ll<•Y iltld in G<lllclor <:lnc.l other areas so he Ciln brinq qoverument closer to the JWOp le . llo\,r much , Mr .

Speaker, do we h.:~v c 1:0 pn y ror: tha t, with the llansard und "i th the hot I.)] roOlllS .and Lhe pl anc fares and the meals and Lhe part.y'inq nfter? llow much do we have to pay on that , 1-tr . Spt•.Jker? ~lh\ is it that ~otc cannot tnkc th<1t ouoncy 1 Mr . :pcaker 1 ;oml nclopt the pluq­ in system? - just:. even up ll t:.hjs point , Mr . Spc-.:tk.ct· ~ have the radios to have it . tf it is the- rn th"t is the major expe nse, then \vh y tlo \'IC not iust qo into the electronic media hy way of pluq-in:;'! nut no , 11r . Spc<:~ker .

Ne talk about qet •.inCJ closer to th<' pconle but nll \'l'e kn0 1v is that when the.rc arc~ 1:oh i ncl meet i n11s in Corner Brook then basic<1l ly .here is ;\ party of th<' I'.C. 1\ssoci<:~tion out thnrc cJ rtcn.J.trds or <I ball or o di nner and , of course, it is :;upport ~in<J the Lroops , Mr . Spl:ilk<'r .

I wouhl qo as far as to say that this f!Ovccnmt•nt - •tny ~'lvcr nm cnt that docs not '"ont any e:<p<•surc Lo the people h.as somcthjn<J to hide . /\nd witlt forty-f:ottr nicrnlwr s.•> I)Vi.ously Lhe forty-l'Clur members •m<l the Premier nnd .he Cabinet fel.•l Lhcy h:we more and more to hlclc and '"il 1 have more and more to hide in the futun~ .

Why i!'l .1t thnt vtc •:nn call the Fisheri<."; Loan !loard to find out how many fishermen an· in arre;.Ja·s and cannot <JCL the nnswcr'l ttow is it thnL Hhen I phone the r>cpo rtnac-nl < f SCl<.: i ~•1 !ie rv ices nnd ..tsk. what is I. he role of Lh•· :;I. . • lohn 's noy!; Sclwol thot 621 6

Dcccmhc r 1 , 1 'l 82 'l'apc 2!l52 EC ,. 2 r~H . ll'rStOCf\ : ·- . I urn Lold, ' You have to corrt.1ct the nrinlsLcr. '? l'llry j:; i.t that when we contact other· prov :inc r;;d civil scrvnnts. 'You h.,vc to CJO to tbe rn:i.nj!';tc-r ' ":' 1:: it, .Mr· .

SJ)<!akc-r , thnt in our public service now, Jwowinq • lvll:. th~rc ar·c t·,.,cnLy-ciqht laid off in l'ubllc \~orks o~n<l otlh !r lDyorrs •:ominq in other departments - is it that o u JlllhU c servants .1rc no1<1 f.carinq their jobs so much Lhat 1 hey 1-Jj I 1 not tJivc any day to day information and instC'ad Y< •U huvv to cro throu«Jh the minister. and have cvc~rytlrinq ::.cn:!cncd by the mi ni·ster? ls that lvhat 1ve have , Mr . SJWukcr? 1 [ th: t is the way, Mr.

Spcnker , it is not a cll!mOcracy, 1t is; dictc.ltorshir, it. is a public se-rvice Lhirl: ls opcrnl i nq iJ fcnr. /\nd I w11rld say, rnorc than cvc: r bC"fOJ"e iu nr1r hl!:ito ·ry, 1·10 have 1 public :.;c.·rvicc nm.,r in Lh.i.s Pro vir e.e that .i.s clpcril tin(] lq fear - MR . Nl':l\I~Y : 1Uqht on !

MR . lllSC:OCK: - opcr-atiJtCJ from the point of vi<!W th<~t the ) <;~;rc <1 fr<:~id to unsv1cr their tclc•phone .s v1hen .:m Opposition rnC!ml>cr call,; , srryinq , · T <:1~"1 sorry, you \olill lmve to con·tac-t the tninistt~r on that. ' 7\ntl, o: course, we kn01" whnt llw m.ini:;tcr's unawcr. l::, ' Put it on the or.dcr Paper . • Wl'' pu1· jt on thP On1cr Pancr ·ana there arc 200 qucsUons th.·r.c lll<lt: 1/t ~ do n<•t h<Jvc <~n~\~Crcd . So , Mr . Spcilkt ·r, not only <.trc 6217

D~cember l, 1982 'l'u [l• ' No . / 9 ') .1 M,J - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK : the public serv<lflts of this province livi.nq in fc.1r· b•·t the Cabinc·t ministers, themselves, are also Iivinq in f< <J.r or it. So, with req<1rcl to it I do think, Mr. Spea)<er, 1•e hav•• ::,1 rnr tht• hope of rlernocracy if we believe in democrucy - an I til is W<ls the <Jovcrnrncnt which was supposed to have brou<Jh 1: democracy - i f this is the government who says it a.nd beli••ves it, itS Lhey .Jre goi_nq around the Province ho.vineJ thci·- Cabinet mcctinqs, the money could be weLl sa.ved.

Also, ther•• arc <•thc'r· ways of savinq, by Mount Scio house .mel oLhc~r- tllinqs. I r the Premier really wants to qet close t<• the people• he w.i 11 nol have to put a wire fence up a.rour d hi 11tsel f .md l..i ,.c in Iris twenty-sevc·n room house nn Mount :;cio I(Odd. 'l'hclt i: nol 1/0iny- to brinq him closer to people•. And i.f the J>rcmc.ir is sincere and compassionate,then b( seciner him on t<·lcvi.si .on on il prc•ss release is not goinq to mukc h i1n uny Jess il premier then by hilvincr the people see him in the \louse when be e;et:; up and answers the questions.

He mrqht lose his cool here• a little bit and maybe that is what he drx~s n»l: want the people of the l'nJv.incu lu rL<c!l iZL!, Lltdl h<' do,•:-; I!H-ic.· hi~; t•ool .tnd w~ do ·have a tendency to qc·t hi:> qoat. So, the mc>tion, Mr . Spcalu•r, I support l:he motion particula.rly with req.11d to the radio and the T.v. part of the c J ectn >nic mecl ia. I believe very strongly in opening it up to our ruraJ areas of this l'rov ince so our people can have th·~ option. 'rhe Mini st<~r o [ Rec t'eu l:ion, Culture and Youth (Ml L. Simms) said too m.my people would be grandst.mdin<J. WeLl, I woul<l say, Mr.

Speaker, that i r the camera has any aJ.ility, it has th<' o.bi l i.ty to detect falseness. It hils the ilbili.ty to <kt<·ct hypocrisv, Mr. Speaker. ~;o if the rc i1 r-c cmy 111e111bers in th i ~; If ow><' who • 1ct up and qr.Jnclst<Jnrl, llH•n the l f>C·l J I"''>Jl I r <tr'(' t-lw I i r·sL on!~S l•y Wil'f of the media covc~r~aqc to sec this. So I do not accept that 6218

Dccoml>cr 1, 1982 '!'apt• Nc _ 2953 f.1J - 2 MH. 1-:. IIISCOCK : .., _,. ___ _ ar·qumcnl • And j f it also means th . .r.: liH •y :.trc trvinq LO net anythinq , 1 woulcl 40 so far as Lo say , Mr-. Spc<•kcr , it w .. uld ri'lisc the level of debate l1 i ltlc- bit more• . Tt would mC'."ln t'1at when one person is :->(H'<tk ln<J , Mr.

Spenkc-r, lw wouJrl not be: j ntcrruptcd by :;cvc ral,nr tlu•n• would nol. be private conversations qoir111 on in c;o r·nc-rs wh i lc one of Lhc hon . members <!lccted by il c~onstilucncy or Lhis ProvincC' lws the opportunity to :;p<.•.lk _ I would ll<Jilin pojnt out lhat [urn sure- moreso thun iJnythinq thilt the OpJ.>OS Lti< )n has to ilChnit - lhat it is unf•>rtunatc th;~t we arc clcb;,tinq ;, motion on h. -wing I ivt• t•IC'ctronit• <"t>V<.~r ."I <J" of this II< IISC' when tht• l)rovinc•• di"CIUIHI II$ is cru111l>f i11q.

We• ltotV<' I"II•IIOUrs Ill ('Or 'OC' r llrOOk and W<.' hJV<! rumour ·s of Hul'i n ilncl t h ·rC' wi 11 •rroha!Jl" be 011. rc- ruuuun; or \'/ ;~bush be for. the Wi nt <·r ~s out nnd we have tht con!:L:ruct.ion Lrndc .11H l we hetv c he C:rudC' XT I_ 'rhe Gr. de XII, Mr. Spc.rkCJ , i r we· only r cw the tru th and if only th• 'I' . V. cnmcrils w0rc ltc•rc . I f 1-IC: on 1 y k n~1" the trut h of wh-ot wi I 1 h:1 ppcn n• xt y••Clr wi til C.ra lc Xll . 'J'hc Minislcr of Soci <ll Scrvr c;c s (Mr . 'I' .

Hickey), Mr. ~;peaker, ended up ~ily in. q on n.rliconetl r;ldio 1,1st niqht, that he does not support the new .luv•·ni lc Act because- it will l.1ke $10 mllllon to build now inslitutlons for the youth of this Provine <' instcilcl or ptiltin q thC'm in prisons l"ith adul ts, wil h murderers etnd other pcopl c , .-,nd he 6219

December L, 1982 'l'clpC No . 29')4 Sl) - J MIL HISCOCK : <.:o.nnot :mp(Xlrl Lhut becuusc they do not have $10 million . And tlu~ Hinistcr of Sociul Serv1ccs (M•· · llickt•

y) snid th•t I:H >L ni•tltt on niJLion,ll l:udio . Tht·y do no t have $10 million . l'icll,if th··Y clo nc1t howe $10 million for that, how tlo we h. 1vc Lhc $1 0 mi I I ion to hui I <I tlw ex L , -.. classrooms , the llomc c<.:OJ•nlllil: n>oms , Lhc :>c i encc roo m :;'? /\ntl the answer is, Hr . S1 •eilkt r , we do nul have j t, .Jnd Lhis yovcr nmen t hils <;one I •n w i th C:r ntle XJ I . And Wt' \.,ri 1 I r Lnd ou I n01.,., 11r . Spcilker , th•·ywlll<Jnon , they1.,rill notadmil th.t t l ho•y .Jrv ~llll lo•J .tnrl l"i •<l ,,,,.

IJIIII\'1 I o IJ•' ll u• <l iiC !I I II ~; ul I <.:r , somebody iu l.cwisporle , ·.untt: hody in<.; <~nd lloJnk. , some yoJuLh in the l3ily of Is La nd:: , s< •ml! pc rson dm~n in S t:. lld rbc , St . Hary 's - 'J'he Capes? So would hope 1 hoJt Cabinet wi IL rc.tlly look at this idc.J of Grar • Xll <:~nd nol h;-.ve too mu<.:h <l.:unDqe done . i\ml j r we hud thi ~·I ~lr . Speake,. , tlw ·rv in the Jlou::c we would have more p<•op L(. · dt:IJ.t Lt.• ov<•r CircJdv X lt .

Because in Lclo/isport. yo u miqht only n<:cd Lwo cl..ts!':rooms but next l.o that, furl her in <~nol her clistl'icL, l•:n<Jlce, you miqht only nceu one or in St . /\nthony you may ncetl two and then in Cow !lead you may n<•cd t 1</0 and Pou<.:h Cove you may need one . 1\1 i of th•>SC ar ·! <~s, mtl in" .loc,tl .:~reo:~ it doc:: not affect th •:m Lh.'lt much, IJuL once Llt<.!y know the ramifi.,nti,>ns and puttin•J them illJ tucJethc• · iL is la lkinq abo u t $:!00 million th.tt is nc~:d"u Lo he spcnt on Grtldt· xn next yea• to brin•l it: up Lo st<~nuard .:.tncl br·in<J up Lht· <.: lassr.uo tns . And, t1r.

Speaker, l<~hen th · Mjnistcr ol Soci,tl Services s.Jys they do noL h.:tvc $10 m,tllion,thcn what. is qoln<] to hDpp<.' ll 111ith Grade XI r? So •n conc:ludinq r support the motion . I rcryrct th.:~t we arc dcbatinq iL Jl' thil> Lime of such economic scvcriLy In <Jill' l'rovincc . 1 would hllvc · lliUCII preferred hcinq up do!l>.tLi ••J loQW we C.Jn rn,Jkt• sun• I h.ol Corner Broc;k is O(.)t " one t:•'lllp. •IIY Lown , l.h.:Jl w t! l<>ok <1 L w.tys of finding how W C' ca11- t··•rtiC"ulolrly the Miutst.cr ol l':duc.•Uon 622[

Dec •ern IJc r l , l 9 8 2 'l'w]'l' No. 29',4 SD - 2 MIL IIISCOCK : (Ms. Vc<qc), Mr. Spewker, I believe lws let down her district very, vc:r:-y mu··h. As Mi nistcL· of l·:duc~Jtion she hi!>; the ubility to cncou1 aqc Memorial University to ,;cL up il ruJJ-t.ime dcqrec (jiLintinq insti .tute out there. c:lw hils the~ Ltb.il i ty to cncouru.CJc the Co1 Leqc of Trades and 'I'• ~chno LO<JY to hil vc more cou rscs out the 1 c~. She h,>s the illli I i.t.y Lo cncouraqc the Fisheries Coll< gc, whethc'r- it is qojnq to be built i11 St. ,John's, sh<' ha' the Ltbility to hav•· some: ol it l"c.ttc~d un t.hc West Coa~t.

But do we hear lh<~i, Mr. Spcakct·? No, 1\nd with rcqun l to the ol fs hore, when il comes 6221

December 1,1982 't'.tpe 295 5 PK - 1 MR . HISCOCK: SL . ,John's llo11si.nCJ will co::t so much (or rentals that the averilqe student will not. be able to afford it nor Lht peopl c on low i.ncomvs. AN liON . MJ::r-11lER : C.:urfcw ! MR . HISCOC K : 1\nJ inste.1<.1 of lookinq at the long -term .:lnd tryin<; to put. sou ... • of the ·duc:.1lion JuciUt ies , the School of. F'ine 11 ts ~·tc . ov ~~·· on tlw \<l~o·sl C.:oil:;t and tloinq it now , it woulc.l , t1r. Spcilkt•r , end Up o.1 "·'Y of lcsscnin•J the impilc l . so , t-1r . Spcuk• ·r, 1 rc• .JrCt that it is not on 'l' .V .

Lobe .tbh~ Lc c.lebute , .tnd the Ninistcr of Ctdture, Hccrc.Jtion .• nd Youlh ("lt' . Siutm:;) mo.~y chucklt•, but before the year is o •t Tlbitlbi Pric e in l;r<~nd l'.:~lls ~tticJ bl close down, .md them nistcr is fi•Jhtinq fur ;t junior coll•:•JC in thnt an .:1, and he is .:~lso fi Jhtinq lo ulher things .. And I am svrc that tt.e MinisLe l or Cultu c , Hccrc<~tion and Youth woul d agree with me, Mr . ·;fl<' ·tkcr, h.:~ I: one c.:ompilny towns arc d<myerous . 1\nd 1 <VII :'W"C t.hc Mtnjstor of Culture, l~ccrcaLlon ,,ncJ Voulh i; I i•thtin• :·o r iL. The motio n is, l'1r .

Spc•tkt r, t:h<ll we should h.ove Live vJcctron oc media in this llousc su Lh.ll il could covo·r THOLions lllw this und spccclw:: 1 ike Lh :-;. MR . SPEAJ<El~ (McN.icho J as) : Ordc • • plcast· ! The hon . mPmber ' s Lime has cl,1t->:>cd . t-IR . IIISCOC l-' : So , Mt. Spc:u lu:r I r lvOuld like t:o h.:~v0 tl c courtesy or huvinq i I fMSScd to me so that 1 could wjnd up inst•:ad of beinq c:ut : o il in mid::trcom. I 11m t·ather surprised thaL [did not 'ICL lh.ot cut ll·tcsy, to know th.:~L T had (>rt,. 111inuLv . so iu co nc!udln'], Mr .

Spo.:~kcr , I do sup port the mol ion , but r t cq t~et th.ol. we arc cll~b.,ti nq this , debating thn •·ll'<.:trrlnjc.: 1ncd.i<1 i.nsL<~·•d of deba tin9 the ccon<•m i c s l l'tlit Lion in Corner Brook . 62~2

lJl'CL'illbl'r J 1 1982 'l'.lp<' 295~) PK - 2 SOMI·: liON. MJo:MBI-:HS: --------- II< .tr, hcLJ.r! 11 1_1~, - ~;1'1•:7\~1<1~ .J. M_cN \_c~ol~: 'I'll<' hon. member for :;L . .John 1 s North. :~~ -~ 4J•:M~I· ~ ~: Hc<1r, heur! MIL CJ\H'l'm<.: 1~1 • Speaker·, the upplause from ()Ur side mi<Jht be il bi.t prem<•ture because I would like to stat<' at the outset thut I support this motion. I think it is a very qoocl m•1tion. 'l'hcre arc a lot oF problems o~ssociated with it ~>l'rhaps, l•llt think the arquments advanced by the member lor tile Gtrait or Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) are vc ry compc l U nq.

I am rnak in< ol couple or ussumptions here, or course, and that is that the n~port in r:ansard is correct. llnlortunutely 1 I w.1s not here last week, 1 was unavoidubly absent .met so I have had t<J rely on llansard fo1· the afternoon's proce<~dinqs an<l I ho~ve read it fairly c<tre[ully. I think ih<'rC' Drc .1 coupl<• of L·.ypoqraphical er1·ors because I noticed in on<~ plucc the IIJ< ~mber lor the Stril it or Belle Isle says, 1 I is dec rep i l' · but 1 <lo not think tfta t can be correct. nul r thin!< his a1qumc.:nts urc certainly correct and they certuinly appeal Lo me.

But I have to !;ay with some reyret 1hilt the Minislet• or Mino•s (Ml". MurshaJJ) I Youth and Culture (Mr. Simms), whuLl•vc 1· l t is - ~;OME liON. MgMm:Hs: Oh, oh! Ml{. CJ\H'rTm: - his <I rqumenl! ure not as compelling "nd I hnve spoken to him pr i. Vill:cly and I think he is coming il t"OUnd to IllY WLJY "I th Lnk i nro. MIL 'l'ULK: It is qoocl to know ( i.naudibl0) MR.

CJ\R'I'J•:rl: Well the pro!JlCm is I r think it _j <; the member!; who h<1vr• been here for the lev.st amount of time who <~re somcwh<~t thin-sf;innNI, I think <1fte1 you have been here lor a whjl<' you iJ.I"C th_ick-ski.nncd cnouql to be <lble to reverse v.ny pr:cvious s t«nc:t•s. 6223

December 1, 1982 'l'ape 2956 NM - l ?oiR. CARTER : 1 wu!'i .:lCJ<l ins L ·rv in the: House certuinly,becausc I did nol Like Lhc idu<:~ of the!.;C very powerful liqht:: und the bulky earner<:~:. , iln<.l •• ] 1 the cords trailing ·•round, ilncl <.~11 the pilraphernalja, and certainly if Lh,o t were lho case to<luy l would object. That is one of my olJjecti<>ns .

But if what tl1 • meuobc:r for lhc Strait of Belle Isle (Mr . :~burls) Jays is correct , that you can use orclin.:try litJ hl. or only very sliqht.ly enhancc:t.I ,.J 11<1 an inco nspicuous c<:~mcn·i.l mounLcc.l uL .;ome distance oway , then t do not sec uliY rcaJ ol>jeo·Li.on , el'(>Gcially J r there is no co~t involved. SOME HON. ~!EMB ER.<; : lleilr , ho<:~r ! MR . CARTER : So 1 c.lo supporL lhis resolution . I must say I have often dls,Jqrecd \.Ji th the memb~r for tht.: Strait of Belle Isle in lhe p.::~sl and r enjoy havinq lhc odd flick at him, but,you kn(M , Lhcre is IH1Lhing pcrs on u l.

Wh •!n I sny that such -and-such .:1 rcma•· k is the lowest rcm.or.k th.JI:. has l/(!Cn rnac.lc in Lhc Lwc•nLJ•·Lh •·t:nlUt/ , wh .:~l I am sa yinq is that r ndldly tUsa•Jt:ec wilh Lhc lton . •Jcntlcman . SOME HON . MEMB ER.<; : lie.:~ r, he a ·r ~ MR . CAHTEH : So onl! mu~;l nol ql!t <;urricd away . So on l>ulance 1 believe it lo be a stronq and sensible resolution . Om (ju<l rrcl [ huvc with it is tha L I think it is overdue .

J Lhink Lhis n:so l.ulion shou 1cl h;wn hcen on the Order Pnncr two or l.hrcc years aqo 1 but I understand, al thilt time the tcchnoloqy had not <.~dv.:;~nce d to the stage where television could be inconspicuous or 1 you know , wo uld not be bothersome . T do havf.! <.o coup lc "r minor procedural 6224

December 1, 1982 'l'.::tpe 2<J5G NM - 2 MR. Cl\.H'l'F.R: doubt~; · but they <1 rc of no consequence. ----- I Jo not think,for· inslancL ' 1Lhc.~rc is any nc.~ed for u. committee. 1 think if we were really serious about this we~ could "settle it by tlcbal:e riqht her<· in the !louse. 'l'hc committe-e might be useful, T will not object to it, but I r .cally do not sec the need for j t. /,nd. also, of cours,~, we must not take too much for granted. We do take our House procedure for rrru.n led. It is sJmple enough to us althouqh not all of us hu.ve mastered the rules.

But it docs seem fairly straight- [orw ard,l>uL T woultl suqycst to hon. members that the House procet.lu.re Joan outsider is u. qreat and d<~ep mystery, and iu keepinq w j th till! tcl< ·vision, you know, if you are going to h.Jve television you "re <JOin<; to have Lo have an announcer, ~;ort of a voice ov<~r., w!Jo,for jnstance,wilJ MR. Mli.RSIIALL: Or ~ commentator. MR . Cli.R'l'ER: Well, nol. only 4 commentator, but he cou] d introduce, say, the member [or the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), u.nd qivc .-1 1ittl<) i>J.t of his biickqround, that his midclle ne1me is Moxon, Edw<trd Moxon Roberts. SOMii LLON.

MEMI3lmS: !lear, hear! MR. Cli.R'rER: Moxon was the n.:1mc of his grandmother, she lives in 'I'ruro. Justo. ljttlc bit like that, that he lives in St .. John'!;. lie hus no inLeresl whatsoever in the Str.::tit of Belle TsJ c . lli.s election is really an insult to tlK~m, lJCcausc! he i~; sayinq th.:1t, you know, the people up in the Strait of Belie Isle are not fit to ~end a member. You know, lhat is really who.t it says. J\nd when the Leader of the OppoHition (Mr.

Neary) gets up - b~ the way, this is not the Mifflin Report th.:1t I was reading, this is llilnsarcl - but the ilnnouncer could say, "This is the person who spent ull. thu.t money on nell Island, turned all the building supplies into rum. 11. bit of a magician there." 6225

December J, [982 'l'ilpt• No. 2:!'•7 ,Jh-1 MR.CARTER: /\nd , ol cou,·sc, you would have to have some visuo.J crl·cc.:t.:, <1 l.J<H:kdrtJp ror insto~ncc . I think CJ. lur-ge )>icturu or ,Joe.• ::nlilllwood <:hou.lcl be thccre. SOME HON .MEMilERS: llt~ilr, h•·<JJ'! MR. CAR'l'E R : Flankctl on c•ilhcr side by equally lar<Je photoqraphs lll. :;lJo~kccn <~nd lloyle. I think we need a few sloqmis LJ.S well. You know, resettlement, about the purty ot: resettlement. Civc .i.t .lll LlWilY is another useful slO<JO.Il <Jncl b11rrJ you1· bo<Jts, .I lid whtl owns the. I iquo1 stores? u.nd llilteJ W<JS <l ·Jl·c<~L m<~n.

I sUp[JOSe you COlli< I have a lurqe photoqrilph or llill:er. /\ncl ::ince the sw.tstil<o~ WJS such a oatitahlc i.ns1 J'lllllcnl lor llit~il· J•<~rly, I thj11k tile~ I, i.hc•rill p,,,·ty should <Jcl()pt l:II'.J L o~s WL' I J, .Jnllbilnds with swastiko.s unci swaslil"1'; i 11 cut:!! ol thosL' ::quul·t•s over l.hert!. At the same time r think 11 . is i.mp<n· tun t tn i dent i ry what Liber-als and J..ibcrul i: :m is. think l:his .mnoun'cc•r that I fiqurc~ wouLt\ IJe parl and p.tn.:el ol Llw 'I'V proqrdlllllll' would point out whilt T.ibe1 ill Jllc<tn::.

Now have j o 1: ted down a few mcunintJS or ·::". wonl Lil>t·r ·,ll o1 Liberal ism und r would I ike l" :.·~ -· il. lit<' lllt'll1lle1·s .l<JI't•c wi Lh lilt~. (.

t) Liberal, il term or <~bUS<~. 'l'hat sounds n~asonablc. (l.

J) Lib~ral, the i·as;-ta•J renm.wt of a Jlilrty ol· .Joey Iovin<) toadies. (

c) J.ibcrcll, a tl!orou<Jhl.y dj :: •d i tc~d poI .i l: i c.J I philosophy (d) 11 cult or devil worshi.pt~r::. Now t.:lic.~n· j:; slang, o. slimy, ni<Jhtcrilwl.inq Jizor ·<i or todd. /\lso r:l.ang, a dis<justin<J loathsonJ<:.' c.li.seasc. Well . tht~ oJllllOllnct•J· could point out thul this .i ~; wllilt LilJt~raJ i "'" means fc>r the edification or Lho public.:. Now ,\[ Lhv S<JTHQ lilll<' no •rv production would be complete wilhoul sound cf'rt•cLs and I think,Cor- instilnt:c when the mcmiH.~r lo r the ~:trai.t of Belle Isle (Mr.Hobt~rls) <Jets up Wt' could h<~vc Lhc Deuel March in Sau I .

Wllc• 11 :.:()IJIL'<l llt • c I St· < J <~ l :; 11 p Wt' C<> ll I d have Tip Toe Throu<Jh the 'I' ttl i p:;. SOME HON.MEMBERS : llc.:1 r, hct~ r! o I ''16 n_L

i)(.•(;('llliJCI ' I • I 1!82 '1\lJlv No . 2 9' · 7 ilh-2 MIL('/\1<'1'1-:H: /\nd wh~.:n Lh· · r.c.•dc•• or the llppo:d Uon (Mr· .N<-.• •

y) lft'ts up we• c·ould h.tvl"' l hunckr ilnd I i•1hLin11 . llul r>~'' h.tp~; we should uoL,ut't:.•u ~a! p<'oplc micJht b<.• :lint i d Llt.t I he• 111 i qhl c.lie 0 f tlw c.; l.tp. SOI>11·: liON. Ml·:t·ll\l·:w;: fll.!ar , hc<t r ! MIL CI\IC'I 'J-:H : l\11cl Wll<1n the melllht'r for· f•'OCJO (Mr . 'l'ulkl tJ~!l:s up we t'tltlld so~y , 'J\n<l nm..r we will hear r 1'0111 l. ht. 1111'1 '('11 i hI I. 'I'll I k .• S0~11 •: liON .

MI•:MIIImS: 11<!<'11 , ht·,ll- ! t·m .C/\R'I'I-:H: 1\noLiwr minor f.H ·ohJc ·m that I lt.tvt~ l•dLh !·hi:. resr>luL.inn is thoL ll would .1JLcM people Lo ~; l.tnch~·· Llh• puh I i c.: who I e~;ill c. No1" Lh is is on I y .:1 minot <;otnpl.d .uL,ht•t·.lltsc I rc-.11Lw lhut members oE the Op po: ·dU•\11 .tl'l! .tlw.tys s l.1ndcrin" th11 publi .:. llut . unfortunately iL i~; •' r•tl<' ol llti:: lluust• Lho~l il you d•> huvc ,, point ol 01 ,., ,l'V<'n Ll il i:: not,, v.tl ld po.int ell' ortlc·r, you , .... " "I lcMc•d Lo qc:l up .tnd sL.•Lc II even i.f i.t i!; n mo~;l. out riltJt!OIIF- poi nL .

And you c.tn <JeL up .tr'ld sl.<Jndcr who you I i k<• .tlld .t I I Y"ll lhlVP I o rio is .,.,i thd raw iL . 1\nd 6227

December 1, 1982, 'l'ape2<):,8, l'<t<Je I -- ;1pb MR. CAR'l'ER: I think that whi lc we c<m SOl lel y do this in the Ilow;e, <tnd while t-hese n ~m;1rks un' str~tined by the press, if they wer-e put out live on 'l'.V. perh<lps tht~ public would be sl.mdered whoJesale and this could be objectionable.

It is only ;1 minor- point, l rc,\J i ze, bccuuse the Opposition sl<Jnder pc~ople so oftc•n. /\noth(~l point I m<~kc is Lhitl this House has ext ruord inu ry powc rs, and I do not be I icvc~ we realize the powers we huVl'; we have the power:; to say whut : we like in t.he heil t of c.lc~batc, Wl' huvu the powers lo discipline our own membc~r-s, and, i_n fact, 1 think this House can put .J mcu1l.Jer in j;1il. 1 IJl~l icvc we h<we thc~t power. know th.J 1. we ' cotll d huVl~, for instuncc, the power to issue a horse wllippi_n<J to, perhaps, the Lc;.tr.ler o[ LIH~ OpposiLion(Mr. Neary) eve1y ~·rid<ty.

Now, wt· wouJd nol bl' undemocrottic about that, we wou.ld always take d voi<~ on it first. 'l'hc Sergeant-al.-1\rms could ad111inisL:er !:he ltorse whippin<J. I think [ would a9n'e with IJr. Johnson wh,,n he me11tioned wlwn l!c spokl' about puhl ic h.:mgings, /.hut the rich would be supported <tml the pull! ic gratified. So with these minor reservations 1 would certainly vote for the re~;o l ution, if tlwse things cou 1 d be incorporated into it, ,md l am sure th"Y could be. MR. TULK: No problem. ~~ SP~I\1~~-(!'JcN~y!f~_!<:J?)._: 1'he hon. the• member for 'l'err-01 Nov,,. MR. LUSIJ: Mr.

Speukcr, [ have been sit Ling and listening to this debaLt~ for the po1st two scssicms ,md find it absolutely amuzing and incredii>Je that members on the opposite side can find it in their he<.1rts ;md in their souls to vote ag,tinst Lhi~: motion, i1 motion, Mr. Speukcr, a resolul :ion whil'lt will qivc our E~?Qplc uCCl's>: to wihll. lake:; place in this hon. llouse, which will <rive them full access, Mr. Speaker, to learn .:.md to be able to be informed of whut takes place in thl' hic:.thesl court of t!te land. /\nd yet, of R(2B

lkccmiJcr I, I 'JH2, 'l'ilP'' 2\1'38 , l'. t\JC 2 -- ,1ph MIL _t_.~l~fl : c:ou r:w, mcmbc 1:.: on the opposite !:ilclc want. to f(':~t :ricl this kind or informntion , they want to l<ccp Lhis iul•lrmnllon .:.n o~.ty from our peo ple . I h.1v" lll'l'O I i •:t c-nin'J , Mr .

Sp<-u kcr , Lo I Ill• r·u,,: :on!:i giv~n by hon. rncm bers ilS to loJhy lhcy .:1rc not SIIJ•POrLing thi:: resol ut ion . /\nd really , as I hav e I i! :tc• ncd , t 1::mnot find one subslilnti v0. reason, nut ont~ suhst.1nLi.vc reason . 'l'hcy found o:~ conple of c:« .:u:;c}; , Mr . :;pc;-akcr, but th; 1L i~: nll it: .:~ moun ts to, <•xcusc~: , hul 110 suiJsL.tntivc or ::ubstanti.:~l rensons as to wh y we ::hould not CJiVc thC' mNii. t <~ccc::s, fu ll and cmnplc-t , .• 1n:1• o:: I o pror.c~c·dinq i11 Lhis ltousc . Now, I!:L u;.; l<>o k ,,, some of the lt'.tson:; .tdv.rru:c•cl by hn u. ruc1utx-r:: , Mr.

Spci lk c!r . 6229

Dcc<.•nlbcr I, l 932 '1'·11'<' No . ~'l'i'J ~:tl - I !-Ill . LU~Ii: One• Ill I he• lt'.t!iOII!i <f i Vl'll W.t:: I h<• fact LhaL true: r.JL.in•1s in ,,,·,·.t:: wlwr" pvoplc: h.tvt• ,,..;,:!':·;:; l•> the purl i.1ntcnl<try pnJC:t•:;~:. Llw I'·" I i.tnu•nl "' 'Y pnw •·rltll ,. , wot ~: l.h.t l they l'r>uncJ ntll' till• r.ttill<J:; W<•n· l11w, to filii i l in Lht• c•l•·•·l tt)Jllt' tcnt :inploqy, th.tt Lite r.tl inq:: wt•t't • In\~ .

Now t!t 'l'l,J i Illy, ~\1 f>pe.tkcr , lh,lt is no n•.r::nn \.,.hy W• ' :~lttlllld ""' •tivv twupl• · <H'CC.•Ss i)I.'C:•.HISU , 011' '• WI' lo1111tl •lll l l.lt.tl lh• ·Y ,fl't' ll!tl illlt·JI'!·>I~•d unci 1-JIWn I lwy Sl'<' wh.tl h·'l'l"'tt:; - Ill i nf: it w.t :: 1111· l11111:a• nl Contnl<.'ll:.i in p.ll·Licui.Jt' lltt!y Wt•l<: l.rll:ill•l ,dvutl - wht•ll f~~'"f'lt• :;•·•· the ki,nd ,,r ~ctivil'y t·h.tl '1"••·: •m llt.tl llwy llC'cottu· di::ittl<·r·c: :l.,.<l, thntthr•y.tLmo::;t: lnr·:• .' l!llllt•• t<:~;p, •cl ln 1' wl\.rl lo~kt·}: 1do~ cu . NttW I M I • ! ; PI'" k I . I I i I WI.

II:;,. l lt;t L iJl; ,, rc<.~HUII, LltL' f.tcl Lh.tl: otl<'<' 1'''"1'"' .rt' t• c•xpo:a•d Lu whotl takes pl<lC.! in !'.1rl i.lm<•nt Llt.•t Lhvy !:oJn<'how lo:;<· ::nmt• ll'}!p<'<·L 1 ii th<.~t w~•r-c 1l rc<~::on rr" not . .tl lowi nq Lh~· <'h't'l rn11 i (: medl.l into LhC II OUS~' t!cl·t,d Illy Wt• Woll l d t'l OHI' I h1 • II<HI!H' d<ll oJI1 1 bcC.JilSC cc o'LJ.in I y I Lh ink '.>It' I i nd Lhl! :;.tlllt• l IIi nq whc•JI 1'""1' I c· come into .he qillll•rtl'!': ''"" llb!:ut·vc wh.tt . i:: qoinq "" · vc•nl.un• l•l :-;.1y t.h.tl. i I w•· ''"lldtwl ··d ·• pol l ~~i lIt I"'"!' It• , ... iot .rnd ;tftcr c·ontitlll i11Lo Il l<~ lhtll::<• rrl 1\:;s,••nhly I ~tl ould 1'~:1"'<'1 we ~~oulcl l' i ncl a m« ,·kt•d d i r 1 c•rc'tH:c in 1 II!' i • .11 l: i I IIlli's l u\ v.t nls what takes place .

Lhink Lilt: n~.t::on for it b: lh.tl pt•nplc• have a preconceived i d(•,t , P<'llp lt.• h.tVI..' JII'C.'I!I>I1Cl! i Vl•d noli OilS of whilt P.:trliameul is ull .ti>oul. . 1\nd <>nee lh ••Y '" <' t•>: t•osml to it,somehow il doC's not.. c;ont<· up Ln th ese r••quit'l'llll'nu: , iL docs not meet thci r c•xpccl.•Linn!; . ~;., .lltl oJn.ILit:<~l I y Llu·t·c· is n reduction or 1l lo~:s ol ' ••:!;pcl:L. IIlii, 1'1r . Spl'• tke r, certainly that is no t·c·<.~son l..o LhniW il <•UL,I>cc.H I!:t• l.hi:: is whaL happens .

I think 1.,rh ;1L W I' should l.l wn do - I t·h i 11k .ti l bon . members t.hen have the nJ:~poJu:illiliLy , .•II hon. lllt •ntlmrs then, Nr . Speaker , h.l\'C thu ohl iqaLion Lo try ,wd dt.tll•J<' this ima<JC , to try .md chantft..: Lhi s puhl ic pl'r<:l'f'l ion . And I believe that j f the clcctronit· nu:di.t 11-ll'rt' .tllowc•d L:o c·o~n- y tha procce<li n~s t:h<.J t W<' W<>U I u ::• t! " •·•~ •,·ked i rnp ro vc•J1 1011 L i 11 the decorum in this hon . II<>U!H: . 623[

Dcccmb< r .l, 1982 Tape No . 2959 so - 2 MR . TUl.K : Sure you would , yes . l'lR . Lm:u : Now, l'tr . Speaker, people talk about - and along with this the idea that I mentioned of people losL ng i nt erest nr losinq some respect for Parl iam en t once they have seen the developments on television that they lose inter~r>t, <~lso, ,,f course-, associated w1 Lh this idc·a , MI .

Speaker, is t.he fact somehow, t.hat th<' liouse loses its decorum . 1\nd I would sny it is just the reverse , that the dccorwu oC the !louse would impro ve . lion. members have advancc•d the notion th~L there would be 1 lot of qs·andstanding . Now, Ml . Speaker, there is .o lot of grandstand ing th at goes on ull the Lime,and J cert<~ ~nly Nou Jd pr..:fer the (jra ndstanding to a lot of the oth er nonsense that t have observed in thls llou~:c, the snipinq buck .1nd forth anll tllu whlsper ill•J , Mr.

Spe<Jkcr , and the sal lyin<J back and forth which so metimes cause tempers to flare and some very nasty and uncouth remarks bei ng made . 6231

December 1, 1982 ';I'u.pe :2%0 f.C - 1 ~_5H: And I believe that if these proceedings were televised that we would rid ourselves of that kind of nonsense, that kind of sniping back and forth, that kind 0f uncouth and unrefined language. I believe that would eave, Mr. Speaker. Are hon. members afraid to get rid of •hat kind of debate? Are they afraid to rid themselve! of , hat lack or decorum? It seems to me thilt they are 1fra d that the decorum is going to improve. Mr. Spc1ker there are reoplc who specialize in this sniping b1ck . nd forth.

They are what I call 1 one --phrase peopJ ,~ 1 - 1 heir vocabulary is so limited, their vocabulary is so r-est,icted,they know so little of the English language, Mr. Speaker, they lack such fluency, they luck such knc >Wle,l qe in their own language that they are one-phrase people. that they .1re one-word people and they can just snipe bo~ck and forth; they could not give a speech. So, Mr. Spc ·aker, they .1rc afraid for the electronic media to c< •me here bec.1use then the people of Newfoundland would sec them for wl1at they are. Now I realize, Mr.

Speaker - and I am not goinq to rret down to the level of naming individuals, I thi.nk jt is a recoqnized fact that some people can make better speeches than other people, that some people have more control of their language and therefore they c<1n make better sp~eches but, Mr. Speaker, that is again no reason not to brLng the television cameras or the electronic media into the House of Assembly, because certain J•eople are not versatile in that particular media. That is no reason.

Every member of this House has a function; every memJer is specialized in certain skills, and regardless of what media is here, that membc ,r is going to surface to the top and the people who elected him are going to recognize him for what .i.t is, be it a 6232

December 1, 1982 'l'ape 2960 EC - 2 MR . LUSH : l>llbljc s~aker , be it a hard - \·larking person in hi !; district, t11at Ls going to be recognized . In tl Ls hon. llouse we have fifty-two members, some of '~hom have been here for fifteen or s:l xteen years, many or \•Jhom have been re­ elected t\o~o «•nd Lhr~

c) times and . ob\: i ously, M.r . Speaker, tht ·y have eel tain sk i.lls, they 1 a.ve cer tain abilities and the electronic m<!dia will ct rtainly enhance that for them . nut every meTTtber her t has certain skills, certain abilities, and the electconie media is not going to do anything to djmi nish that . It is not going to do anyth I nq to disc red i I; any p<lrticular Mil/\, any particuLar politician . The only r>crson who is c1oinq to clo that is the politici<~n himself , that is the pt ·rson who is going to discredit himself. So, Mr .

Sp eake r, there is certainly no evidence <·ot all, there is no :ubstance to th ,.s e arquments thnt the electronic media will somehow cause th<! p1. 1blic JWr.ception of the IIO\.I'>e of /\ssembly or Parliament to deteriorate , and th ··re is no evidence, f.lr . Speaker, that it wi 11 lower he decorum of the llouse, J \oiOU ld say j L is just th ·· OJ•r•ositc . Some qthc•r member mentioned that maybe the electronic JTICdia .tas not compaf ible with 6233

December 1, 1982 Tape 2961 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: the nature of Lhe Houst! of Assembly. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest, if that is so then we sh <Juld change the House of Assembly. We should change the Hou :;e of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, we should change it. And these han. gPntlemen opposite like to refer to themselves as the great reformers. They brought in a lot of rules to change parliament and Lo make it more functional, to make it more in tune, to make it more in harmony with the twen .ieth century. And I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that it we to not make it in tune and in harmony w i th tcchnr logi' al advance:;, then we have been very remiss in our dutie ~;. 1'!,en we are doing the people of this Province, and the PL'Ople of Canada a great disfavour. So, Mr. Speaker, if th ere is some incompatibility, if ther e are some things out of tune with this hon. House, with its tradition, with its custom, if there are things that are out of tun'~ with the technological developments of tod·1y, then certainly we sh,mld do something about it. It is not a reason to sit back and say, "No, no, we canno