Manitoba Hansard — 16 May 2000 (Sitting 28, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-28

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Th irty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 28- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 16, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMJAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1155 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 16, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I have a statement for the House, Mr. Speaker. As Minister of Family Services and Housing and the lead minister for the Healthy Child Initiative, I am rising today to inform the Legislative Assembly about our 2000 Manitoba Prairie Northern Conf erence on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome held this past weekend, May 11 to 13.

The Prairie Northern Partnership was launched initially in February of 1998 when the first conf erence was held in May of 1999 in Alb erta. The initial partnership was the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and we were very pleased in January of this year to extend an invitation to the territories to join in this initiative, which they all agreed to do. So the 2000 conf erence brought together over 750 people from the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alb erta and the territories of Yukon, Nunavut and Northwest Territories.

I was very pleased also that the Secretary of State for Children and Youth, Ethel Blondin Andrew, took the opportunity to announce the formation of a national F AS advisory committee to Health Canada and to stress that ministry's commitment to harmonizing federal, provincial and territorial strategies in regard to fetal alcohol syndrome prevention and awareness. Many of the appointees to that committee were very active in planning and co-ordinating the conference. Fetal alcohol syndrome, as I think all members know, is a devastating tragedy that has affected thousands of Manitoba families.

The social and emotional costs of each child born who is affected by alcohol are incalculable, and we know that the cost of supporting one child with F AS is more than $1.5 million over his or her lifetime. I want to call on all of us here today, and to our partner assemblies in the Prairie Northern Partnership, to support action towards educating communities and individuals about the risks of drinking during pregnancy. However, awareness alone is not enough to address this problem. Women addicted to alcohol and drugs require compassionate support to heal themselves and to lead healthy lives with their children.

I am very pleased to inform the House that the conference was a great success and that, through the Prairie Northern F AS Partnership, a conference will continue to be held annually to continue to raise awareness amongst our community members and to profile effective F AS programs from the prairies and from the North. I am asking each of our members today here to make prevention of fetal alcohol syndrome and the awareness of the stra tegies that are effective to do that a priority in all our constituencies and to join with us in this fight against this completely preventable birth defect.

Thank you. *(13:35 ) Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to thank the Minister for his statement. Certainly the issue of fetal alcohol syndrome is one that when we were in government was of major concern to us as well, hence the involve ment of our government in creating some of the initiatives to address this disease which is 100% preventable. The education and awareness around the issue is certainly one that requires our true commitment and focus. I am glad to see that another conference has been held and that there

1156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16,2000 are other partners now involved, because certainly the partnership will enhance the efforts of this program. I am also pleased to see that the Secretary of State for Children and Youth also took the opportunity to announce the formation of a national committee to address this issue. I think this will lead to further good work in the area of fetal alcohol syndrome prevention and aware ness. We certainly look forward to hearing more about the initiatives on this issue.

When I was still working as a registered nurse I can recall being in the nursery where there was a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome, and it is one of the saddest, saddest issues. because you have a crying baby and you cannot pick up this child because the child cannot bear to be touched. It is an absolutely excruciating feeling to be sta nding there when you are a mother yourself, and you are not able to pick up and nurture this crying child. So, certainly, we are very interested in the promotion of any efforts that will deal with the issue of fetal alcohol syndrome. Thank you very much. Ron.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the Minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. Occupational Safety and Health Week Ron. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce North American Occupational Safety and Health Week, an annual co-operative effort by Canada, Mexico and the United States.

The goal ofN orth American Occupational Safety and Health Week, NAOSH, is to focus the attention of employers, employees, the general public and all partners in occupational safety and health in the three countries on the importance of preventing injury and illness in the workplace. This year's theme is Healthy Workers: Healthy Business.

The objectives of North Amer ican Occupational Safety and Health Week are to increase employees, employers and public understanding of the benefits of invest-ment in occupational safety and health, to raise the awareness of the role and contribution of safety and health professionals, and to reduce workplace injuries and illnesses by encouraging new safety and health activities. In order to reach that goal, one has to think about occupational health and safety prevention.

To achieve good results in occupational safety and health prevention, the following elements have been found to be critical: Corporate executives must exercise leadership and respon sibility for safety matters; employers and employees must give their full commitment; occupational safety and health committees must demonstrate their effectiveness; and govern ments must exercise vigilance. Partnerships in occupational safety and health are also a crucial element to success.

The Workers Compensation Board and the Work place Safety and Health Division of the Depart ment of Labour have strengthened their alliance to work co-operatively to address safety and health issues. They are focussing on the high mjury rates of our youth and also looking at ways to make prevention activities more effective. They have been using data to zero in on those workplaces most in need. Only 50 workplaces in Manitoba account for almost one quarter of all of our time-loss injuries.

This year, the Workplace Safety and Health Division will audit these 50 companies and others in order to maximize their performance. This is in addition to the division's traditional emphasis on high-hazard jobs in industry sectors such as mining, construction, manufacturing and newer activities like ergo nomic interventions in enterprises with high soft-tissue injury ra tes.

This year I have also asked my advisory council on Workplace Safety and Health to increase their level of work activity and look at several key areas, including ergonomics, an area where we are learning more about the issues and how best to address them;

May 16,2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1157 violence, a growing area of concern; youth injuries-new workers have the highest level of injury rates; and farm safety, an area that continues to have high injury rates; and ways of making our enforcement more effective. * (13:40) Everyone plays a role in creating a safe and healthy work environment. Both employers and workers must join together to identif y hazards, evaluate and assess the risks and identify and implement measures to protect workers from workplace injury and disease.

This improved work environment creates more productive work places, having a significant economic benefit, as well as the benefit to society in general. The Department of Labour is committed to reducing the incidence of workplace injuries and diseases. When we do this, everyone benefits. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I, too, wish to stand and recognize the North American Occu pational Safety and Health Week or NAOSH, as it is so commonly referred to.

In fact, NAOSH seems to be a by-product of the NAFT A agreement, the North American Free Trade Agreement, which I know was so roundly supported in this House, and we are glad to see that these initiatives now are not just based in one country but are in fact based all through North Amer ica. That is another one of the positive effects of NAFT A that we all support in this House. I would like to point out to the House, Mr. Speaker, that yesterday I rose during Members' Statements and I addressed this Chamber and indicated that certainly we on this side of the House wanted to recognize this important NAOSH week.

I am glad that the Minister took my advice and she had her department write up a statement and today got up, and I have to say it is a very impressive statement. Once again, as I spoke when I addressed the House on the Budget, we on this side are more than willing to reach down and give the Govern ment a hand up whenever they need it, and this was another one of those instances. Insofar as NAOSH is concerned, in fact, yes, I think we all agree that the goal is to increase employees', employers' and public understanding of the benefits of investing in occupational safety and health. For, Mr.

Speaker, if I may refer you to Hansard from yesterday, I mentioned that each year more than 700 people die at work alone, that is just in Canada, and most of these accidents could have been prevented. So it is very important that you have this relationship between employees, employer and public understanding, and it certainly is important for a modem society such as we have. We on this side in the Progressive Conser vative Party also support the need to raise the awareness of the role in contribution of safety and health professionals.

We also support to reduce workplace injuries and illnesses by encouraging new safety and health initiatives. Yes, we agree with the Minister, in order to reach that goal, one has to think about occupational safety and health prevention. Again, the beauty of this is it will be a North American project, brought on by free trade, which I know the Government and certainly the Opposition on this side support greatly. Again, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister mentioned, to achieve good results in occupational safety and health prevention, the following elements have found to be critical.

As the Minister mentioned, corporate executives must continue to exercise leadership and responsibility for safety matters, and in fact certainly we commend them on the kinds of things they have done. Employers and employees must give their full commitment, and we are pleased that they continue to do that. Occupational safety and health committees must demonstrate their effectiveness- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I regret to interrupt the Honourable Member, but Beauchesne's Citation 351 indicates the Speaker limits the Opposition reply to a period not to exceed the time taken by the Minister.

I note the Honour able Member's comments are now considerably longer than those of the Minister and I would ask the Honourable Member to please conclude your remarks. Mr. Schuler: In conclusion, as I said in my comments yesterday, we certainly are in support of this week, the NAOSH week, and we certainly appreciate the fact that this is a North

11 58 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 American event. I would like to thank the Minister for having taken the advice of the Opposition in having brought this to the attention of this Chamber. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the Minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the following reports. copies of which have been previously distributed: The Collective Agreement Board, 19 98-99 Annual Report and the Public Schools Finance Board Annual Report for the year ending June 30. 19 99. * (1 3:45) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Question Period I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today 26 Grade 9 students from River West Park school under the direction of Ms. Tammy Rak. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Charleswood (Ms. Driedger).

Also, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my right where we have with us this afternoon Father Don Malinowski, former MLA for the con stituencies of Point Douglas and St. Johns. On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD First Time New Homebuyers Program Elimination Mr. Gary Filmon (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. In the Budget that was delivered last week by his government there was a provision that was not mentioned, nor was it talked about by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), which was of course the scrapping of the new home-owners rebate. That particular rebate was seen as a significant advantage by the Manitoba Home Builders Association as well as the 15 00 families who over recent years utilized that provision to buy their first houses. My question to the Premier is: Who was consulted before that decision was made? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I just received my City of Winnipeg property tax bill today.

I, like every Manitoban, just got a major rebate in the sense we received a property tax reduction, with the property tax credits that were in the Budget, today. That is a $25-million property tax rebate to all citizens of Manitoba, those people interested in buying a new home, those people interested in buying a used home or a formerly owned home, or those people already living in their homes or apartment dwellers who can file on their income tax next year. That is $25 million for all home owners in Manitoba. We think that is a fairer way to go. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, of course, the First Minister did not answer the question about who was consulted. I will be more direct, so that he understands what I am getting at. Why did the Government ignore the Manitoba Home Builders Association's requests for a meeting to discuss this very subject? I have the City of Winnipeg's 2000 Home Renovation Tax Ass istance Program, and I note that the City of Winnipeg has retained their home-owner assistance program.

I wonder whether or not he consulted with the City of Winnipeg before they made this decision, and why he did not allow the Home Builders As sociation to meet and discuss this matter with him and his ministers. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Member opposite knows that this was a program that was extended to March 31, 2000. It was not extended beyond

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 59 that by the former government, nor was it extended by us beyond the date. Mr. Filmon: Well, Mr. Speaker, we certainly know that they scrapped it. He does not have to tell us that. We found that out, and it has now become public knowledge. First, the hardworking middle-income Manitobans become the highest paying personal income taxpayers in Canada, and second, he scraps the home-owner rebate so that these middle-income Manitobans cannot get the extra benefit that they were looking for in order to buy a house here.

Does the First Minister not realize that by doing all of this he has given the best promotion piece to Ontario and Saskatchewan they could ever want to have to attract these young mobile and hardworking middle-income Manitobans? Mr. Doer: I am pleased that unlike last year, '99, the last year of the former government where growth was 2.2 percent, growth is now projected at 2.7 percent. Greater growth means greater activity in the housing-[interjection] Mr. Speaker, 2.2, 2. 7.

Greater growth in the economy, we believe, and indications so far to us have indicated greater economic growth, including greater growth in the housing sector, whether it is new housing, rental housing, existing housing stock that is being resold. We believe that $25 million in rebates to all home owners through a property tax credit is more a decrease in taxes than the $900,000 that the members opposite failed to extend past April 1, 2000.

If my memory is correct, this is the first time in years I can remember where my propeny taxes have actually gone down not only because of the work of the municipality but also because of the property tax credits brought in by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) less than a week ago. * (13:50) Income Tax Provincial Comparisons Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance defends making Manitoba the highest taxed province in all of Canada by sending forth his spin doctors to complain to the media. He charges that his critics are being selective in their examples.

Because of the Minister's lack of a long-term plan, the gap continues to grow at almost every income level in Manitoba. Can the Minister advise this House why a single senior earning $20,000 will within the next two years be paying almost 20 percent more personal income tax in Manitoba, compared to Saskatchewan and Ontario? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, in the pamphlet that will be going to all Manitobans, we can see that for a single senior at an income of $20,000, they will in the year 2000 get a tax reduction of $1 35, in the year 2001 will get an additional tax reduction of $267, in the year 2002 will get an additional tax reduction of $289, for a total reduction of $69 1, far surpassing anything the previous government offered to senior citizens. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, let us look at another income level.

Why does the Minister choose to penalize a single person this year earning $35 ,000 by paying 5 percent more taxes than Saskatchewan and over 40 percent more than Ontario? Where is the incentive to stay right here in Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: I am glad the Member opposite raises the example of a single person at $35,000, because that is also one that we examined in our analysis. Before I give the concrete information there, I should point out that the 50-50 plan had no tax reductions for the year 2001. Now, with respect to that single person, their tax reduction for the year 2000 will be $18 8.

Their tax reduction for the year 2001 will be $259, and their tax reduction for the year 2002 will be $310, for a total reduction of $757. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I think it is worth pointing out that our budget would have introduced the full, complete flow-through of the federal budget. I want to ask a final question, because this shows the impact to Manitobans of them not doing that today. Where is the Minister of

11 60 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 Finance's balanced approach when a $60,000 family of four will pay almost $300 more in taxes today than they did on May 9 of this year when his government brought down their budget? Why is he penalizing this family by them paying more taxes today than they were just a few days ago on May 9? Mr. Selinger: The $60,000-income family was one that we paid particular attention to in redesigning our new tax system.

If you take a look at previous experience, that particular family unit was one of the most highly taxed in Canada under the regime for which the former minister opposite takes credit. Now, what we have done, we have introduced the new feature called the family tax reduction in Manitoba. The family tax reduction will give greater tax reductions for children.

As a result, a family of $60,000-two-income earners will save $269 in the year 2000, it will save $60 I in the year 200 I, and it will save $680 in the year 2002, for a total savings over the three years of $1 ,550, which far surpasses anything the previous government had planned. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park, on a new question. Budget Income Tax Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): New question. Mr. Speaker, I have a very simple question. All Manitobans need to this question is a yes or a no. Mr.

Speaker, if this Minister of Finance had left the tax system the same for the year 2000 as it was proposed to be for the year 2000 and did not delink the system, would Manitobans today be paying fewer taxes than is the case as a result of his budget? Just answer that question, yes or no. * (13: 55) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): As a result of tax reductions we brought in this year, the property tax reduction in particular, Manitobans are $7 million better off than they would have been under the regime of the former government. Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, obviously, by not answering the question, the Minister of Finance is telling Manitobans they are paying more taxes today as a result of his budget than they were on May 9 in this province. Why can he not just stand up and answer that very simple question? Had he left the tax system the same in the year 2000, would Manitobans be paying lower taxes today than they are as a result of his budget? Yes or no. just a yes or a no. That is all we want. Mr.

Selinger: The total savings to Manitobans includes the $10 million passed through on the basic rates and, in addition to that, the $26 million on the property tax credit, to the net result that Manitobans are $7 million better off in tax reductions this year under our system. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, this is not a very difficult question. Surely the Minister of Finance should know the answer to this question. One questions all aspects of his budget and the ability to answer questions here. The calculations have been done. They have been run at every income level.

I just ask the Minister of Finance to tell the truth to Manitobans today. As a result of his budget, by delinking from the federal system one year earlier, Manitobans are paying more taxes today than they were paying on May 9, the day before he brought down his budget. Just answer that question, yes or no, to all Manitobans. Mr. Selinger: I think the Member opposite has perhaps a problem hearing my answer. Unlike the previous government, we made a commit ment in the election to deliver a property tax rebate.

We went beyond that to ref orm the tax system and, as a result, Manitobans are $7 million better of f this year, and next year- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult to hear the Honourable Minister's answer. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, as a result of the reductions we have made in taxes, Manitobans are clearly better off this year. They will even be better of f next year, to the tune of $68 million, and they will be better off the year after that to the tune of an additional $34 million, for a net

May 16, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1161 reduction of $102 million, plus what we have done this year in Manitoba taxes paid by the citizens of Manitoba. Justice System Member for Rupertsland's Comments Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Ab original and Northern Affairs. Last fall in a CBC television documentary, the Minister was quoted in a statement that he made for that documentary that indicated that the justice system-the documentary was in reference to the gang trial and the courthouse.

The Minister made a statement on that documentary that the justice system was systemically racially discriminating against Aboriginal people and that the courthouse in question was a symbol of that systemic racial discrimination. I would ask the Minister today if he will stand by that statement. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Yes, I will. * (14:00 ) Mr. Praznik: My supplementary is to the Minister of Justice.

Given that the Minister of Northern Af fairs has made that statement and was very strong and, I believe, very honourable in his belief about that statement, could the Minister of Justice then tell us why he has taken the opposite view in dealing with gangs, by his press announcement today and other steps, which do not seem in any way to be reconciled to the concerns expressed by his Cabinet colleague? Why are we getting two views of gangs and the justice system from two different members of the same Cabinet? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I know in the last number of years I have had to get glasses. My eyesight is not as good as it used to be. I know my hair colour is changing a bit. I have to have yogurt more often. But I think, just now, my ears are starting to fail me. I heard the word "gangs" cross the lips of an opposition member outside of a pre-election period. I cannot believe it. Mr. Praznik: A further supplementary to the Minister of Justice. This is a very serious issue.

His Cabinet colleague has made an extremely serious accusation against our justice system, so much so that the Minister's own Crown attorney, while he was Minister of Justice, wrote to that minister threatening a lawsuit because of the statements he has made. Now I would like to ask the Minister of Justice: Does he take seriously the comments, the very, I think, well-meaning and heartfelt comments of his colleague about racial discrimination in the justice system? Does he take them seriously?

If he does, why then have Crown attorneys under his watch threatened the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs with a lawsuit? Mr. Robinson: Just to be fair so that everyone understands, the interview occurred on October I. It was broadcast on November 15 on CBC News Magazine. The comments I made were general in nature. They reiterated what the Ab original Justice Inquiry and a royal commission on Aboriginal people and other reports have said about the justice system in general and how it relates to Aboriginal people and how it has failed Aboriginal people.

Beyond that, I would not like to make any comments because of the matter being before the courts. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on a new question. Mr. Praznik: It is clear from the news reports that no suit has in fact been filed by that Crown attorney with respect to comments from the Member for Rupertsland. So this matter, his statements, in which a Crown attorney working for this minister on this end of the bench has threatened a minister on that end of the bench with a lawsuit for his comments, no suit has in fact been filed.

But, for the public, for the aboriginal community wanting to know what the truth is. I ask the Minister of Justice again: Does he support the comments made by the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs that the justice system that he administers, in which his Crown attorney has threatened a lawsuit, is that

1162 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16,2000 system system ically racist against Aboriginal people? Mr. Mackintosh: I find it alarming that the Honourable Member, who I know is full well aware not just of the sub judice convention but is aware that the matter of which he speaks is before the courts in Manitoba, it is a live issue before a judge, and I am sure that he does not want to jeopardize that trial. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I would like some clarification, Mr. Speaker.

Was the Honourable Member up on a point of order or was he just answering to a question, because I did not hear an answer to the question at all, and I do not believe the Member had a point of order because he was speaking about a matter that was before the courts? As far as we know, this matter is not before the courts today. If it is, let us know which level it is at. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the Honourable Member's point of order, it is not a point of order, it is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Mackintosh: I also add, Mr. Speaker, that 1 have full confidence in the prosecution team on that trial.

I might just add a final note that, when I came into the office of Attorney General, in the place where they put aside the reports that were produced for the ministers, there was the AJI report. It was still encased in plastic. That speaks very loudly of the concern of the members opposite for Aboriginal justice in this province. We are committed. Gang Trial Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary to the Minister of Justice.

He says to this House how committed he is, yet a Crown attorney in his employ threatens his colleague with a lawsuit for saying exactly what is in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. How does the Minister of Justice reconcile that fact? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): You know, Mr. Speaker, three and a half years ago we got up in this Chamber, and we asked Manitobans for support for our calls for a comprehensive, focussed approach to deal with the criminality of gangs in Manitoba.

I was very proud today to be able to announce, three and a half years later, a criminal organization and high-risk offender unit in the Department of Justice and new partner ships with community and antigang education strategies, something that I only wish the former government had acted on. We would not have been in the situation we are in today if they had taken some- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Beauchesne's 417: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." We will leave it at that. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all ministers that, according to Beauchesne's Citation 417, "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." I would just like to pass that on to all honourable ministers. * (14:10 ) * * * Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, the Minister's answer is exactly why there is an issue, because his statement today cannot be reconciled with the statement of the Minister of Aboriginal Af fairs (Mr. Robinson) who said that the courthouse, the whole gang trial activity, was symbolic- Mr.

Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): You just indicated from the House Leader for the Opposition that on citing Beauchesne's with respect to the rules of this House, a supple-

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 63 mentary question does not require a

preamble. There were at least four sentences in that

preamble, and I ask you to call the Member to order in the same fashion that you acknowledged the rules in your last ruling, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do understand that there is a rule in Beauchesne's that says we should quote the rule that is being broken in Beauchesne's and at least quote the number. If the Member could tell us which area of Beauchesne's he was debating, I would appreciate it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order, I would also like to take this moment to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: Would the honourable member for Lac du Bonnet please put his question. Mr. Praznik: My supplementary question to the Minister of Justice is: How can this minister reconcile the statement he just made to the House that he wants to strengthen the attack and fight on gangs, when his own colleague the Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs in this province publicly said that the courthouse and the process is symbolic of a racially discriminatory system? How can the Minister, in all honesty, reconcile that and allow his Crown attorney to write to that minister to threaten the lawsuit?

Mr. Mackintosh: I am not sure if the Member is suggesting that the Government in Manitoba tum a blind eye or ease up on the prosecution of crimes in Manitoba committed by whomever, Mr. Speaker. But what this side does understand, unlike members opposite when they were in govern ment, is that we must deal not only with crime but with the causes of crime. We are committed to that, and today we announced an initiative to begin a movement in that direction. Thank you. Child and Family Services Aboriginal and Metis Agencies Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Aboriginal Anglican minister Rosemary Forbes has stated publicly on two occasions in the Winnipeg Free Press and the Thompson Nickel Belt News that she fears Aboriginal peoples are not ready to take control of Child and Family Services for Aboriginal peoples. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if he has similar concerns, and if so. what his plans are to address them? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, it is difficult not to be offended by the question itself, but let me try to respond.

I have full confidence that First Nations. Aboriginal people and Metis people are completely capable of looking after the needs of their communities with the support of their own communities and the many groups that have worked to develop a high level of profes sionalism in agencies such as: Awasis, West Region, South East DOCFS, Anishinabe, Peguis. Child and Family Services agencies in First Nations communities look after over 17 00 children on an in-care basis.

They have developed some of the most advanced services in communities such as Nelson House, where I was privileged to attend the opening of their healing centre, along with the Minister of Highways (Mr. Ashton). They have provided some exemplary practices which, quite frankly, could be applied with great success in the inner city of Winnipeg.

I am looking forward not just to their assumption over a period of time of the mandate, but I am looking forward to their sharing with us some of the things that they do that frankly are more successful in child welfare and in maintaining families than we have been able to manage in

11 64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 some of our jurisdictions. So the answer to the question is: I am confident that we are not only doing the right thing, but that First Nations and Metis people of this province are quite ready to accept that challenge. Mrs. Driedger: From that response, I am assuming then that he does not support the concerns raised by Aboriginal Anglican minister Rosemary Forbes. I would like to ask him: What time frame does the Minister of Family Services have in mind for the Aboriginal Child and Family Services to be delivering its services? Mr. Sale: Mr.

Speaker, I think that the simplest way to answer that question is to remind the Member of some history, that in 1981 the DOCFS agency began service, the first in Canada and I believe at that time the first in North America. although I may stand to be corrected on the second point. Certainly the first in Canada. Over the next 19 years, the schools of social work at the universities of Winnipeg and Manitoba. Red River Community College.

Assiniboine Community College have all taken a role in partnership with First Nations and Metis communities to train increasing numbers of people from the Aboriginal community to the point today where the vast majority of staff employed by First Nations, the nine mandated Aboriginal First Nations or other Child and Family Service agencies that currently exist. the vast majority of those staff are First Nations or Aboriginal staff. I am completely confident that, over the next period of time, we will be able to increase that training- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, he did not answer the question but I am not going back to that one, because I do not think I will be successful this time around either. Can the Minister, since he has promised that there would not be any staff reductions at Winnipeg Child and Family Services with the introduction of the Metis and Aboriginal Child and Family Services Agencies, clarify what role the current CFS staff will play once those two new agencies are on-line? Mr.

Sale: First of all, I think it is really important to distinguish between the question of no change in resources versus the employment and the support for people who are currently the staff. Obviously if we move something in the order of 10 00 or 15 00 child ren from one juris dictional mandate to another mandate then there will be changes in how those mandates are funded, and there will be shifts in terms of the staffing involved. The question of secure employment and working with the existing staff to manage that transition is obviously one to which we are deeply committed.

In terms of the time frame, I think it is important that the Member understand that the protocol which was signed and which she was also aware of provides for a planning process that is a partnership among the three parties, the Metis Nation, First Nations and the Government of Manitoba. In that planning partnership, we will identify time frames, staffing issues, training issues, fiscal issues, legal issues and all of the complexities that are involved. Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Provincial Auditor's Report Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Provincial Auditor in his report revealed major problems and disgraceful circumstances in the Manitoba Lotteries Cor poration. Although the former Premier has indicated he was unaware of the problems, surely the publicly appointed Board of the Corporation should have known. My question to the Premier is: Did the Board know and if not, why not? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, a former member of the Board apparently was on radio today saying that all reports and records were provided to the former government and to the former Treasury Board.

Unfortunately, the chair of the Board was not able to be interviewed by the Provincial Auditor and, having said that, I think, even in this Chamber last year, we asked

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 65 questions in opposition on the cost overruns, I think in April and May of last year, to members opposite when they were in government. I would say that the findings are extremely disturbing. The action we had to take yesterday and announced again today with the Minister and the chair of the Board is necessary to stabilize the Corporation and provide integrity to the public. I think that our job now is to move beyond the Auditor's report and restore integrity to this Corporation and make sure that there is a board and a CEO in place. We have appointed Mr.

Winston Hodgins, who is a person well known to both sides of the aisle here, who I think has the integrity to provide stability to the Corporation, to give straight answers to the public in this Legisla ture and to start to stabilize the organization. * (14: 20) Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Premier: Since it seems extraordinarily unusual for a former chair of the Board not to co-operate with the Provincial Auditor, is it not part of the normal duties and responsibility of publicly appointed chairs to be fully co-operative at all times with the Provincial Auditor? Mr.

Doer: Well, I believe it is, and I believe the Provincial Auditor has powers that the individual could utilize. This Legislature has powers that it could utilize. The Provincial Auditor chose not to use the powers in the repon that I read, that he made the decision not to compel further evidence. I respect the Provincial Auditor's judgment here. I think it is important that publicly appointed chairs report to the Provincial Auditor, and I am certainly going to respect the judgments made by the Auditor on what further action he feels we should take in government on the matter raised by the Member opposite.

I respect the judgment the Auditor himself used on the matter of his right to compel a person to testify. Mr. Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Premier: Since the Government has only part of the story, what is the Government going to do to get the rest of the story and make sure that publicly appointed chairs will indeed be fulJy co operative in the future? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I believe legislative committees have extreme powers granted to them, and I also believe that legislative committees are very careful to utilize those powers in a democracy.

I also know that the Auditor, if I am recalling correctly, does have certain rights under the Act. I know that this Legislature could establish an inquiry under The Manitoba Evidence Act to compel witnesses to testify. But the bottom line is the cost overrun numbers are out. The other allegations, some have been verified in the report; others require further work by us in government to deal with the cor poration. We felt that the report was of such a sufficient and serious nature that action regrettably had to take place with the CEO, and we did that yesterday.

We felt the real issue here is who do we replace the individual with. We believe the individual we have chosen on an acting basis is a person who has worked in the public service for over 30 years, a person who has respect from all members of this Legislature and I believe can bring respect back to the reporting to the public that is so very essential right now to restore integrity to the Lotteries Corporation. Justice System Member for Rupertsland's Comments Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, earlier in Question Period, we wit nessed what is a major division in policy within the Government offices. On one hand, we have the Minister of Northern and Aboriginal Affairs (Mr. Robinson) making a public statement, very impassioned, in which one has no reason to believe he does not firmly believe, that the justice system of this province has racially discriminated against Aboriginal people. On the other hand, we have an Attorney General (Mr.

Mackintosh) who has brought in an even more severe regime in this particular area that involves even random urinalysis checks of the same people that the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs says are being racially discriminated agai nst. I ask the First Minister how he reconciles these two absolutely diametrically opposed positions within his Cabinet and how he can have two ministers with absolutely opposite viewpoints on this issue remain in his Cabinet?

11 66 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs made a very straightforward comment about the respect he has for the court process. The Minister of Justice has talked about the integrity of the existing trial, and I would suggest to members in this Chamber, when there are issues that we are discussing that may be part of the trial, that we be very, very careful about the process.

The comments made by the Member opposite were made prior to his being [interjection} and I feel that the comments he made certainly cleared the record for my purposes. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I ask the First Minister how he could have such low standards for his Cabinet when he has a minister who clearly says that the courthouse is symbolic of a systemic racial discrimination in the justice system, and he has another minister whose Crown attorneys send a letter to the First Minister threatening with a lawsuit. How can he reconcile within his Cabinet two such strongly held different opinions?

Which minister will he ask to resign? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, a letter that is given to any member in this Chamber-and I daresay there were letters last year dealing with the comments made by the former First Minister on the Cross Lake situation. There may be even lawsuits arising from that letter that we will be responsible to work with the former First Minister on. I have made comments before about an explosion in St. Boniface and had threats every day about lawsuits and letters and threats. That is part of the democratic system. In fact.

I note today that we are being threatened with defamation suits given the fact that we are taking action on the Auditor's report. I need no lecture from the Member opposite on standards of Cabinet ministers, when we asked him directly questions last year on overspending on the casinos, and he failed to answer to this Chamber. Mr. Praznik: I would remind the First Minister of the immunity of this House from defamation cases that both his ministers enjoy.

I ask the First Minister again, when he has a senior Cabinet minister who represents a large segment of this province who feels so strongly about this issue, how can he allow his Attorney General to have a Crown attorney threaten a lawsuit against that minister for statements that he honestly believes? How can he allow that to happen and have his Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) bring in a program that will involve random urinalysis of those same people that his other minister is saying are being discriminated against? How can he reconcile that to the Aboriginal community of Manitoba? Mr.

Speaker: The question has been put. Mr. Doer: The individual cases are before the court. We certainly respect the- An Honourable Member: The policy is not before the court. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there are cases before the court, and if members opposite do not understand that, then it is regrettable. I recall last year at this time there was an allegation made by the former premier about an individual lawyer who then in turn turned around and sued the individual. Lawyers are free to do what they want to do.

We feel that the integrity of the Justice Department has been maintained by all of us in government since our swearing in on October 5, and we believe that is very, very crucial to us. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Citizenship Court Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): On April 4, I had the pleasure of attending the first-ever citizen ship ceremony in Winkler, and it was indeed an auspicious occasion for all involved. Twenty three new Canadians affirmed their allegiance before Judge Arthur Miki at a packed ceremony at the Winkler Civic Centre.

They came from Mexico, China, Ghana, Paraguay and Bosnia Herzegovina. Achieving citizenship is extremely impor tant and brings with it many rights and privileges such as the right to vote, to hold office, to live

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 67 free from discrimination and persecution, to practise the religion of one's choice and the right to be treated with dignity. Our nation still remains one of the most desirable and attractive places in which to live. It is a magnet for people coming from all areas of the world, people who want to seek their opportunity for economic opportunity, for education, for freedom and for life in a democratic environment that is perhaps more egalitarian and more democratic than any other nation in the world.

I am so pleased that these individuals have chosen Manitoba, and the Pembina constituency in particular, as a place to pursue their dreams. Our province has grown and prospered with the contributions of immigrants, and we look for ward to continuing that growth. As these new citizens realize their aspira tions, they help build a more promising future for all Manitobans. I would like to wish them all the best as they pursue their dreams. Harold Harvey Kletke Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agri culture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, I stand before the House today to pay tribute to Harold Harvey Kletke, a member of the Manitoba Natural Products Marketing Council, who passed away suddenly on Friday, May 5, 2000. Harold was appointed to the Manitoba Council on August 3, 19 88, and has served as a member since that time. Harold grew up on the farm in the community of Rosenfeld, Manitoba, and lived and farmed in Teulon for the past 55 years. His agricultural accomplishments were many, and both he and his wife Shirley were recognized on a number of occasions.

In 19 79, they were awarded the Manitoba Seed Growers' Asso ciation Outstanding Service A ward; in 19 82, Red River Exhibition Farm Family of the Year, which was the first in the Interlake. In 19 98, they received a Robertson Association Award for "conspicuous fidelity and success in a growers' contribution to community and years as a seed grower." * (14 :30) Harold has been a seed grower since 19 49 and has maintained both select status for cereals and foundation status for canota. He was also one of the first producers in the province to produce canary seed.

More recently, in 19 96, 19 97 and 19 98, Harold was presented with the Walter Borostik Royal Exhibitor Award at the Brandon Royal Winter Fair for having the highest total points.

Besides serving as a member of the Manitoba Marketing Council, Harold found the time to serve on a number of other organizations, such as the Manitoba Seed Growers' Asso ciation, Manitoba Farm Bureau, Rockwood Municipal Council, Teulon Agricultural Exten sion Advisory Committee, the Manitoba Pool Elevator Local, and the Red River Co-op. 1 have had the pleasure to meet with Harold to discuss Manitoba's agricultural industry and to share ideas and thoughts on the industry's future direction. The seed-growing industry in our province has lost an outstanding individual and a spokesperson.

To Harold's family, especially his wife Shirley, his sons, Jerry and his wife Lisa, Lynn and his wife Karen, and his grandchildren, Brett Paige and MarshalL our prayers and our thoughts are with you at this time. St. Claude Fire Hall Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Recently, I had the pleasure of participating in a ribbon-cutting ceremony for the new St. Claude Fire Hall. It was most fitting that this fine new facility was open on the final day of National Volunteer Week as the entire structure was paid for without any direct financial assistance from the federal or provincial governments.

I know that a lot of effort went into raising the money for this much needed facility. A variety of fundraising projects were undertaken, including students selling pizzas, amateur talent shows being held, and local farmers, businesses and individuals who gave financial donations. As well, many hundreds of hours of sweat equity were devoted to the construction of the building. Seeing this project through to completion was not without its challenges. In addition to having to raise the needed funds, Mother Nature

11 68 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 tried to scuttle the project. Last year, in the initial stages of the construction process, a severe windstorm toppled the structure. However, local residents were not deterred and attacked the project with even greater intensity. As I said at the ribbon-cutting ceremony, this project is a testament to the considerable talents of the volunteers who were involved with it. It is also fitting that this building houses dedicated local firefighters, all of whom are volunteers.

When duty calls, they are happy to leave their offices, their tractors and their businesses to answer the call. I want to also mention Mr. Georges Jobin who was instrumental in bringing the new facility about. Please join me in congratulating Mr. Jobin and all who were involved in the construction of the St. Claude Fire Hall. Thank you very much. Interlake Natural Gas Pipeline Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I rise in the House today to highlight this government's commitment of well over $2 million in the 2000 Budget to the construction of the Interlake natural gas pipeline which will provide service to several communities in the Interlake, including Arborg and Riverton. The confirmation of funding for this construction project comes at a critical time for the people in the Interlake. The discontinuance of the Crow freight subsidy and depressed prices for cereal crops have put many grain farmers in a difficult position.

The railroads and grain companies, in an effort to streamline their operations and maximize their profits, have largely completed the process of dismantling the infrastructure in this region. It is expected that the last remaining rail line terminating in Arborg will be gone in less than two years. Now modern Agricore and Paterson grain terminals have been built just outside of Winnipeg adjacent to the main east-west lines. Many farmers will now have to truck their grain over a hundred miles to reach the new elevators.

This increased level of trucking in turn has put increased pressure on the provincial road infra- structure, which has been left in a sad state of disrepair typical of the previous Filmon administration. Their message was always: Send a Conservative member to the Legislature or you get nothing. The construction of this gas pipeline will facilitate the move towards diversification and value-added processing that this region is now in such dire need of. It is also a sure sign that this government is firmly committed to industrial development and diversification of agriculture in rural Manitoba.

The people of the Interlake are grateful that their needs are now being addressed. Thank you. Merv Anderson Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): I am pleased to rise and congratulate Merv Anderson, a teacher and leader of the Teens Against Drunk Driving group at Fort Richmond Collegiate. This past winter he was the recipient of a Manitoba Public Insurance RoadWise Community Indi vidual A ward. Mr. Anderson was recognized for his work in educating young people about the very serious consequences of drinking and driving. Mr.

Anderson, who lost his sister to a drunk driver, has been speaking out on his own personal tragedy in order to educate others about the risks they take every time they become involved with alcohol in a motor vehicle. * (14:40) Fort Richmond Collegiate's Teens Against Drunk Driving group is one of the most active in Manitoba. Mr. Anderson has been the teacher sponsor of the group since 19 90.

His receiving the RoadWise Award is a testament, not only to his own personal efforts to bring the drinking and driving message forward, but is also a testament to the hard work and dedication of groups such as Teens Against Drunk Driving. Manitoba has some of the toughest drinking and driving legislation in North America, but legislation alone does not always provide the necessary human face needed to drive home the tough message about the perils of drinking and driving. We should all be grateful that individuals such as Merv Anderson are going the

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 69 extra mile to bring this important message forward. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DA Y BUDGET DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Adjourned debate, fifth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Burrows, who has eight minutes remaining. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, before I resume where I left of f yesterday, I would like to acknowledge that in the public gallery today, during Question Period, was Mr. Mike Sotas, a long-time supporter of the CCF and the NDP and a supporter of Burrows NDP since 19 88. If he is here observing Question Period today, then spring seeding must be over, because I know he goes to his son's farm to help with spring seeding every year. It is a pleasure to see him down here observing the proceedings today. When I left off yesterday, I was saying that I visited an adult literacy program, a program that is in Shaughnessy School.

We were talking about some of the barriers to employment, because most of the students are on social assistance. We also talked about some of the problems of living on social assistance. I asked them about the National Child Benefit, and I said: Would it be helpful to you if you could keep, say, $10 0 a month? They said yes. And I said: Would it be helpf ul if you could keep $50 a month? And they said yes. I said: Would it be helpful if you could keep only $25 a month? And they said yes. I said would it be helpful if you could keep only $10 a month? And they said yes.

So I asked them: Well, what would you use it for? And they said: We would buy milk for our children. As I was going through my budget file, came across a Jist of answers to the question: What is it like to be poor? I suspect that this list was put together by one of my colleagues in conversation with people from the community at North End Community Ministry sometime in the 19 80s, and I do not think that this has changed at all since then. In fact, it is probably gotten worse after 11 years of Conservative government. Mr.

Harry Schellenberg, Acting Speaker, in the Chair So, here is how these women answered the question: What is it like to be poor? It is having to wear the same jeans all the time. It is having no food for your hungry two-year-old. It is having to live with men who do have money or food in exchange for sexual favours. It is sleeping on a mattress on the floor. It is having little or no good furniture. It is having people look down on you. It is going to court for theft, because you do not have the money to buy. It is having to take the bus or rely on the charity of others to take you.

It is having little self-esteem or confidence, so little that making phone calls is difficult. It is letting others have control of your life. so much control that it is difficult making minor decisions. It is telling whoever asks about your personal life, not having a sense of self privacy of what is appropriate to tell others. It is relying on drugs or alcohol to forget about my hurt; hurt from not being able to provide my boy with the things he needs or wants; hurt from strained family relations; hurt from boyfriends not returning my love; hurt about my pregnancy; hurt about wanting things I will never have.

It is feeling alone, rejected, useless, inferior. It is wanting to sleep life away at times. It is not having enough education to get a straight job. It is being nice to people because they have power over you. It is not being able to go on trips, not being able to go out of Winnipeg. It is not being able to afford a phone. It is having people prejudge you because of your colour or your clothes. So what is the positive benefit of being able to keep the increase in the National Child Benefit starting July 1? Well, I think it is very positive for these people.

They are going to use it to buy food for their children and clothes for their children. I would like to highlight some of the other things we have done to assist people who live in poverty. In addition to our building

11 70 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 independence strategy, we will provide parents on income assistance with greater work incentives and more direct links to employment and training. We know that families and children need to live in vibrant and healthy communities. Our Neighbourhoods Alive! commitment will bring community development agencies together with government to rebuild city neigh bourhoods.

In this budget, we have committed funds to Neighbourhoods Alive! which will help communities to rebuild and revitalize declining housing stock, develop economic development initiatives, including employment and training for local people and implement community safety initiatives. Our new Healthy Child Initiative will focus on prenatal nutrition, parent-child centres. adolescent pregnancy prevention and a greater role for public health services in our schools. A centrepiece of the Healthy Child Initiative will be the development of the prenatal benefit that will work in a similar way to the National Child Benefit.

We know that prenatal nutrition is key to a healthy start for babies. Babies born at a normal birth weight have a better chance of healthy growth and development throughout their formative years. The prenatal benefit will be developed over the coming year and implemented in the years to follow. We were educated about some of these issues by Dr. Fraser Mustard who came and spoke to our caucus. I know that the former Minister of Family Services also invited him to Manitoba as a guest and talked to the Conservative caucus, I am told. We look forward to building on his recommendations.

Li ke many of our initiatives, Healthy Child will be implemented with a community develop ment approach. Using parent-child centres as an example, our government will provide the tools needed to develop parent-child centres in a way that best suits individual communities. This grassroots approach ensures that programs reflect community needs, and values and considerable amount of research has already been done on this and we know that they are effective. Our focus on early childhood is also demonstrated through our government's commit- ment to quality child care.

In order to stabilize the child care system, we are adding $9.1 million to the child care budget. This addition to the Budget means that there will be more money for subsidized child care cases and licensed spaces and more money for children with disabilities in the child care system. We know that the quality of child care depends on the quality and education of the staff. We need to adequately compensate staff so that they will stay in centres and make early childhood education a profession.

In addition, a new funding model will work to attract and maintain a well-trained workforce which is vital in providing quality care. Another announcement that was made very recently was that of a long-standing commitment that we would restore funding to child care centres-sorry , we announced that. We also announced that we were going to restore funding to Aboriginal friendship centres. This is something that we had promised in 19 93, I believe, when their funding was totally elimi nated by the previous government.

We are restoring funding to friendship centres through out Manitoba, and I am very pleased that this is another promise that we are keeping. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): I must caution my own colleagues before they applaud me, because they will not applaud me for what I say. I want to, in the first instance, applaud the Government for bringing down a budget that I know many Manitobans can be very pleased with and proud of, and one that I quite frankly am pretty pleased with and proud of in certain aspects. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have to recall, I understand that a lot of new members were here when the now-Premier and others violently fought us on the balanced budget legislation. It was terrible, it was wrong, not to be considered, and they stood in their places and voted against it. The greatest form of flattery is when your opponent does what you did and what you recommended. We cannot deny that, when you cut through the bottom line after four or five or six months of really some silly politics about $300-million, $400-million deficits, they did, in

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 71 fact, Mr. Former Deputy Minister or Mr. Minister of Finance, bring in a balanced budget with a modest surplus. I take note of that; I acknowledge that. I applaud them for that because we did, in that horrendous balanced budget legislation, leave a loophole for an incoming government. You could have, in the first instance, posted a significant defic it-$ 200 million, $300 million $400 million-but you chose not to, and I acknowledge that. I think that is something to at least put on the record. Mr.

Acting Speaker, the fact of the matter that they chose-1 will come to the fundamental differences between them and us, and why I will feel very comfortable in voting against this budget, and speaking against this budget, because of what I accept as being fundamental philosophical differences between our socialist friends on that side of the House and Conservative members on this side of the House. * (1 4:50) My only difficulty with it is that I have spent my time working on and for and on behalf of and have had the support of Conservative people.

I will get to my friend, I forget now what seat he is now representing. [interjection} Wellington. There are fundamental philosophical dif ferences in the House, as there should be. At different times they come to the fore, and at different times they become clear enough for people, the general electorate, the general public, to take note of and to make their wishes known in this instance. I can recall-and the Honourable Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) in her speech kind of lectured us a little bit about how she was proud to be a social democrat.

She listed of f the various European countries and others that followed in that vein and in that suit. Well, let me tell you that I am very proud to be a Conservative. I am very proud to be a Mulroney Conservative because Prime Minister Mulroney will be acknowledged and recognized as having done some very courageous things for his country, for the country that we all stand up and say that we do our best to preserve and to protect.

His efforts, clearly, regrettably, lost him so much popularity-his efforts to bring unity to this country, his efforts that brought on a crisis situation in this Chamber when one member here refused Manitoba to go along with what could have been a settlement of the decades-old strife between French and English in Canada, the Meech Lake Accord. We were prevented by a New Democratic Party member, I might add, from dealing with the issue in this Legis lative Assembly. Mr. Mulroney did not stop at that.

We tried again two years later with the Char lottetown Accord, which virtually all organized governmental, non-governmental organizations in the country supported. I am not saying that the Charlottetown Accord was perfect or right.

I am simply saying that the prime minister who was so vilified in this country to the extent that it has brought about fundamental change to the founding political party of this country, the Progressive Conservative Party, that some of us are having to deal with, quite frankly, in the next weeks and months, but what he did, what he was being vilified for attempting to bring together what Prime Minister Trudeau could not do, what other prime ministers could not do, and, regrettably, in the final analysis, he could not do. But he ought not to be faulted for trying.

Let us speak about some of the other things that we vilify the former prime minister so much about. Free trade. That is where our socialist friends really like to climb on that bandwagon with others, well-meant but ill-thought-out positions trotted out by people who like to wave the Canada flag. Free trade has done more-l will speak about Manitoba-but it has done more for Canada as a whole, but certainly for Manitoba, than anything else in terms of any other economic measure taken in the last 50, 60, 70 years. That cannot be quarrelled with; that cannot be argued with.

Again, those very opponents like the then-Libe ral Party nationally who fought it, what has Prime Minister Chretien and Paul Martin and company done? Are they fighting free trade? No, they have expanded it, and we want to continue to expand it, as we should. If there ever was some really questionable, fuzzy thinking on the part of so-called leaders, it is in our socialist camp who cannot bring it into their concept that trading together, doing business together, is far better than fighting each

11 72 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 other. It is far better than having other frictions together. It is the best way of bringing about a higher level of universal labour laws, of universal concerns, of environment concerns. We just had a statement in the House today about workplace health and safety, about the co operative work between Mexico and the United States and Canada. That is as a result of these international trade agreements. We were told over and over again that elect another government and free trade would be thrown out of the window. Has it been thrown out of the window?

Not at all. Now, let me say one more thing, speaking about the Budget. I know that this never goes down easy. Who likes taxes? But the dreaded GST tax, we all remember that. We all remember the leader of the Liberal Party, John Turner, trying to tear that phone book apart. He said: This is what we will do to the GST -or was that free trade'J I forget. I think that was free trade. I am sorry, it was free trade. But certainly pardon me, I am getting my facts a little-A izheimer's is making its approaches on me.

It was, I am certain, in Prime Minister Chretien's red book that the GST would vanish from the surface of the earth here as far as Canada was concerned. Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, why do we have a GST? The GST happens to be a pretty fair tax. We want to forget about the hidden manufacturer's tax that it replaced. That was there on every car. on every fridge, on every farm tractor and something like that. We want to forget that. What Pnme Minister Mulroney did was honest. What Michael Wilson did was honest.

He put it up front where we could see it, and most other western industrialized nations have an added value tax. That is what it was all about. But we vilified Prime Minister Mulroney for that, and we elect governments who said: Boy, elect us and we will get rid of it. Has anybody stopped paying the GST? Is there any sign of the GST disappearing? Not at all. Again, copying, doing the right thing is perhaps the greatest compliment that govern ments can receive.

So in that respect, I think the New Democrats have paid the former administration, the former premier, the former Filmon government, a very significant compli ment by ensuring that in this their first budget they recognized what we were trying to do, we were trying to bring fiscal responsibility to the Province of Manitoba, was right. Even given their druthers, and I am sure there were pressures on the Premier (Mr. Doer), on the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) to do otherwise, but in the final analysis, common sense prevailed, and you brought in a balanced budget. I take note of that.

I congratulate your group for that. I think it is a responsible first budget to bring in. I have made no attempt not to acknow ledge that in this Chamber or for the record. Well. Mr. Acting Speaker, what I cannot understand is why reasonably intelligent people, in some instances housed at our universities, other places, cannot understand and do not accept the cancer-like dreadfulness of huge debt and the carrying charges, the covering charges, that the public purse has to pay through taxation. We as Canadians are paying some $44 billion annually to cover our Canadian govern ment's debt.

Now, we send our Health Minister, we send our Minister of Family Services, we send our Justice Minister to Ottawa, Finance Minister to Ottawa, and we are talking about trying to get the federal government to reinstate the $5 billion or $6 billion or $4 billion that they took out of health in '94 or '95. For $5 billion I am talking about, but we spend $44 billion to service the debt. We look at our infrastructure, our highways, our bridges, our roads deteriorating at a time that modern transportation is putting more and more and heavier loads on those same roads.

We badly need a $5- l 0-billion infusion to ensure that we have a modern transportation system, but we balk at that, but pay to international money lenders 44 billions of dollars just to service our debt. So why is it such a hard sell among our friends to the left to be concerned about? Why is it that it must have taken a great deal of courage on the part of this Minister of Finance to at least stay partially on track with the orderly retirement of debt provisions of the balanced budget legislation?

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 73 * (1 5:00) I simply want to encourage you to continue doing that. The most important steps on a difficult journey are the first steps. We have taken them. We ask you to continue them. You will be respected if you do that, because we still are paying. In this province, I do not know the exact figures now, but we are paying very close to 480-500 millions of dollars that the Minister of Family Services could use, that the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) could use, and that certainly the people of Manitoba could use in some meaningful tax reduction.

That kind of really brings me to my conclusion in this budget speech. Much to my regret, much to all our regrets, and I say as a partisan from a biased point of view to the rest of the people of Manitoba, in an uncharacteristic way of the Conservative Party of the Filmon government, the people of Manitoba could not grasp, could not understand the billion-dollar proposal that we put forward to them on election day. Honourable members opposite did a first rate job in confusing the public on that issue. However, Mr.

Acting Speaker, on budget day their Minister of Finance stood up and presented their billion-plus-dollar program, not in five years, as we had suggested, but in four years. Now, all of a sudden, when it was suggested by the previous administration, it was pie in the sky. They pulled out these phony economists that used to run around and present alternative budgets to us. I forget the name of any of them, but they said these numbers cannot be right. They do not add up.

That is what they said when we were putting together a billion dollars over five years, but they are right when you put them up and you create a budget with the same billion dollars in it. Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, they outfoxed us, and the people fell for it. The people fell for it, so they are on that side of the Government. Now, the most serious and the most consequential difference between us and them is that in that billion-dollar plan we had, our Minister of Finance had a definite commitment to the taxpayers of Manitoba that half of that would go to tax reduction.

The other half would go to the orderly support of those essential services- health, education-that we all agree to are the top priorities of all our peoples throughout the province of Manitoba. That is the fundamental difference between us and them on this budget. That makes it very easy for me to vote against this budget, because they will fall into their habit. They will fall into their habit partly because-and here, again, I have to choose my words very carefully.

I do not want to call it fraud or I do not want to call it deception or misleading the House, but do you remember how they attempted to change their colours just prior to the election? You will remember they emphasized they were the New Democrats. Remember the lovely blue-coloured billboards of the Premier using our royal purple colour blue, you know, instead of their Halloween orange, which they normally run on. But they did try to represent themselves as the New Democrats. But, Mr. Acting Speaker, within 12 hours, certainly within 24 hours, all the old Democrats surfaced.

Oh, there was the former Minister of Finance, one Gene Kostyra, now safely ensconced in high office at a very well-paid salary. There was the former Minister of Justice Vic Schroeder now safely ensconced as chairman of Manitoba Hydro. All the old Democrats kind of circled the wagons as bees to the honey pot. That should worry Manitobans. It certainly worries me, because that tells me that the old tax-and-spend policy, the old tax-and spend philosophy that my friends opposite truly believe in will in the final analysis come to the fore. I have acknowledged what they have done in this budget.

We will see what they do in future ones. They had an opportunity in this budget to relieve the tax burden of Manitobans. It is not just a matter of relieving tax burdens, but it is a matter of making us competitive. They chose not to do that. We in Manitoba are starting to pay the price, and the price will become higher as we go on. Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Speaker. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Acting Speaker, it is my pleasure to get up and speak in support of the first budget, the first of I

11 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 know many budgets of the current New Democratic Party Government here in Manitoba. I will not be very long because many of my colleagues want to put a few remarks on the record, but I did want to respond to the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) yesterday. In his speech, he spoke about the fact that he felt that this budget had no plan for the future. I just could not let that comment go by, because it is so patently not the case. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I will only speak in a couple of areas for which I am responsible, and they are the Workplace Safety and Health portion of the Department of Labour and the Citizenship and Immigration portion of the Department of Labour, which has come over from the Department of Culture and Heritage. I think that these two areas show that we have a plan for the future, we have a vision, and we are working very hard toward implementing that vision. First, in regard to Workplace Safety and Health.

In the Budget it states very clearly actually it is in the Health part. which I find interesting, and I think it is a very good place ment for this announcement that the Workplace Safety and Health Division will be expanded by eight workplace safety and health officers. We hope to have those officers in place by the end of the summer. We are going to be focussing and dealing with, through the expansion of the workplace safety and health officers. working with the Aboriginal community to see if we cannot add some Aboriginal workplace safety and health officers to our ranks. We will be going to that end.

We are going throughout the province talking to First Nations to tell them what the job entails and to see how we can work together to increase the Aboriginal presence in this division.

As members know, in the next few years, 25 percent of our workforce, particularly here in the city of Winnipeg, will be Aboriginal, and we feel it is very important that that community be represented not only in the workforce but also in the Workplace Safety and Health Division, which helps monitor the safety of those workplaces. * (15: 10 ) Also, those eight new positions will be focussing on the high areas of workplace safety and health problems in our province.

We know we never will have enough officers to do a complete job of auditing every single company on a regular basis, so we are taking advantage of our new computer access. We are targeting those companies and those industry sectors that have high workplace safety and health time loss to accident and injury. So we will be focussing the attention of those eight new officers-or the addition of those eight new officers will allow us to focus more attention on those areas that require it.

We are working very closely as well with the Workers Compensation Board who is providing us the support to enable the Workplace Safety and Health Division to be increased and have had very good relationships with the Workers Compensation Board in deciding and determining what areas need to be worked on and what we can do together in partnership to improve the safety of all of our workers. It is critically important that we act as a team and that we have a plan for the future. In this one area, we are doing that, Mr. Acting Speaker.

The other area that I am responsible for that would like to speak about just briefly is the area of immigration. We are very pleased and proud of the record of our government in just seven short months, or getting on to eight now, I guess, in working to increase our immigration flows. We all know that Manitoba needs more people. The one way we are going to get that, most likely, is through an increased immigration to our province.

The Provincial Nominee Program, which I must commend the former government for implementing in 19 98, had, at the beginning, 200 families a year that would be allowed to come in through the program. In November of last year, shortly after taking off, we were fortunate and successful enough to be able to talk to the federal government to increase that number to 450 families per year. After the results of the economic summit that was held in March of this year, very successfully attended by several hundred people,

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 75 and the Pioneer 2000 Conference that was held just a week or so ago, which dealt specifically with immigration issues, we are working with the federal government to expand that program even more. We are also working, as we said in the Budget, to increase our immigration through other areas, particularly through humanitarian and family reunification. We have a solid base in Manitoba. With the exception, as we all know, of the Aboriginal people, we are all immigrants or sons and daughters or grandsons and daughters of immigrants.

We as a province owe a great debt of gratitude to the waves of immigration that have come to our province over the decades. We continue to ask for and welcome people from all over the world and from walks of life to make Manitoba their home. We are very fortunate to be able to do that work. I think that in these two short areas, these two very important but not terribly big areas, we have shown that we do, unlike the Member yesterday saying we did not, have a plan for the future.

We have a plan for the future that will take into account all sections of this province, that will take into account all age groups in this province, that will take into account for the first time in 11 years all members of this province, no matter whether they are rich or poor, whether they live in the inner city, in the older suburbs, in the newer suburbs, outside the city, in rural and northern Manitoba as a whole. For the first time in over a decade, all the people of Manitoba will be heard and will be listened to.

Their needs and their desires and their goals are reflected in this budget, two portions of which I have outlined today. Mr. Acting Speaker, with those few words, I am most pleased and proud to be supporting the Budget of the Province of Manitoba. Thank you very much. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): It gives me great pleasure to be able to rise in this House, having the privilege, as a member of the Legislature, to participate in this debate on the Budget.

Let me say that, having spent now 12 years in this House and heard many Budget Debates in different forms of this Legislature, I remember my first session in a minority government where we had three parties well represented in this house, very close numbers. The New Demo cratic Party was then in third place. It was my first Budget Debate. You learn a lot in those and subsequent debates when you are in majority government, and now, from the vantage point of being in opposition, seeing again the Budget Debate from a little bit different angle.

The observation that I draw from that history in this Assembly is one that we all know there are many issues. Governments, when they have budget announcements, will want to spin, for lack of a better term, with a certain image to the public. Oppositions, of course, will want to put a little bit different spin on it. The media, I believe, at least from this vantage point now at this end desk here in opposition, if you sometimes just sit back and listen for a while, you realize that the media do figure it out when we are all trying to give them our particular spin on a policy or tum of events in budgets.

What concerns me, Mr. Acting Speaker, in that light, is that there are some very real, funda mental issues on which the parties in this Legislature diverge. We should not be afraid as legislators to very clearly enunciate to the public, to the people of Manitoba, that we have those differences. They are very significant differences of approach. What has concerned me as I have listened through Question Period and I have listened through some of this debate is the amount of spin and sugar-coating that we sometimes hear being put on a variety of positions to make them appear to be what they are not.

I think that is regrettable. It is regrettable for the people of this province, because they should know what their choices are in public policy. The one that concerns me the most, I have to say to the Minister of Finance, who has come into this House as a new member and been appointed to a very important position, that he must learn that, in the long run, the spin will only take him so far, that he has an obligation to come clean, to be honest on the policy choices that he made.

11 76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 Mr. Acting Speaker, some members of this House may go back to the days of the Pawley administration. I remember as a young MLA and then-cabinet Mini ster after the 19 90 election talking to my department officials in the Department of Labour. One of the comments they made to me about the Pawley adminis tration that has stuck in the back of my mind is they said that that administration spent more time trying to spin a story than actually trying to deal with real issues, that everything was spin.

We do one thing, but we want everybody to believe it is something else. You know, Mr. Acting Speaker, we all know every government has a certain amount of it. I would be dishonest if I said we did not either. But I tell you this. On some very major policy issues, we are trying to see the New Democrats do one thing and try to make it appear to be another, and I am not quite sure why. Because it is not consistent with what they have said for years or what they even try to say out of one side of their mouth when they are talking to the public about these issues. Let me get to that major example.

In this particular budget, by the documents of the Minister of Finance, this administration, in this fiscal year, comes into some $500 million of additional revenue, one-half billion dollars of new revenue. Now, for some of us who were here through the 19 90s when the province was in recession, when we were struggling, I remember one particular budget where the Finance Minister, then Clayton Manness, drew a line in the sand to us as ministers, at a debt of $400 million in the height of the recession.

We could not go over that because of its effect on our credit rating. * (15: 20) The struggles that we went through as ministers to reduce budgets, to live within the means of this province so that we could get us over that hump, that we could see brighter and more prosperous days return to public finance in this province, and after several years we did. By the way, through every one of those budgets, New Democrats, on this side of the House in those days, complained that we were not spending enough.

Every issue, every group that came and said, give us more money, they could find a willing voice in a New Democratic Party member who would come in here and say, spend more, spend more, spend more. When the Province of Manitoba was literally a few million away from that debt spiral, when the interest costs would get up to 15 percent to 18 percent of budget and grow, as we saw happen in a number of other provinces, the New Democrats kept saying spend more.

Every time we in government had to make a tough choice, and they were tough, difficult choices, to live within the means of this province, we were opposed by the New Democrats. The reason why I make that observation is what a wonderful time to be in government when you have half a billion dollars of new revenue. As a person who spent nine years in Cabinet, I think we would have all felt we had died and gone to heaven to have been able to approach a budget year with $500 million of new revenue. The new ministers, like the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), who joined this House after the last election, have never lived through those tough days. Many on that Treasury bench have never lived through them. Those who were here in the House at that time were certainly not supportive of the difficult decisions that had to be made. They come into government now, and, yes, that is their right, they won the election. They come into government now with this huge amount of new revenue without one iota of appreciation in their own hearts and minds about how difficult it was to get the province to a point where we could achieve that kind of growth in our revenue.

Why that concerns me a little, Mr. Acting Speaker, is that it is easy money to them. They win an election. They come into govern ment, and it is easy money. It is there. They never have to sweat one day at a Treasury Board table to be able to achieve that kind of surplus. The charade we saw last fall of this that we are going to have a deficit and we are going to do all these cutting costs, but they did nothing, nothing at all, just makes the point of how easy [interjection] The Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) points it out. They walk into government, and the first thing they do is they hire Mr. Ron

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 77 Hikel, who, I understand, is going to be the next Deputy Minister of Health. They hire Mr. Hikel. They bring him out, and he brings in Deloitte and Touche, and without even doing any normal questioning about what departments are asking for, give us the wish lists, they say. We know in some departments there were items put on those lists that could not physically be bought and paid for in that fiscal year, but they were put in. We know that. So they go through this charade, Mr. Acting Speaker. They make a big thing about it.

They really take no steps to control finance of any importance, and they have $500 million in new revenue. The only reason I say that is that it proves the point of spin, because we saw the Budget was balanced. In fact, they had so much new revenue that I imagine it was a real struggle for them to spend it all. Mr. Acting Speaker, well, the Minister of Industry (Ms. Mihychuk) laughs about that. I will tell you that on this side of the House to have had 500 million in new revenue, we could not even dream of it.

So, to laugh, to say, well, it was not enough to meet all our spending-that is a phenomenal amount of money. I say this, Mr. Acting Speaker, just to make the point that, if you do not know how hard it is to achieve that, and I look to the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) who sat on treasury boards in cabinet federally during the same recessionary period. He will know how dif ficult those decisions are. To fall into such growth in revenue without appreciating the ef forts to get there and the efforts of having to deal with dif ficult times, I think it leaves a government who--the Member for St.

James says slash records. We cut, but you know just in their spin she forgets her own spin of last fall, when she was going to be a wrecker and a slasher to balance the budget. What does the Member for St. James really suppose, that the people of Manitoba could have got-[interjection}--or the Member for Minto (Ms. Mihychuk}-that she could have continued to borrow money and add to debt all through the '90s? Well, they would not have had $500 million to spend. It would have all gone to their friends, the bankers in New York. The bankers in New York love New Democratic governments.

They are the best for business. [interjection] Having just said that, Mr. Acting Speaker, I can tell by the comments by the Member for Minto, the Minister of Industry, that that Treasury bench-maybe the Premier (Mr. Doer), remembering some dif ficult days in the latter days in the Pawley administration, may have some inkling of how hard it is to deal with that. His Treasury bench, his cabinet, his caucus certainly does not. That has become very evident by the major policy decisions that they have made. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I come to that because here is a government who in one year has $500 million of new revenue, $1 billion. By the way, I was a Conservative who ran in the election, talking about having $850 million of new spending over the next four years, of new revenue, and in one year they produced $500 million of it. They all said that it is nonsense, it is crazy. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) insults the intelligence of Manitobans by saying: Well, their assumptions were wrong. We still have the $500 million. Well, that is the point.

The real question is: When you have the money, what are you going to do with it? He can get up all he wants to the media and say: Well, their assumptions are wrong. But that is not the point. He has missed it. The point is what you do with it when you have it, because that is the major policy issue. On this side of the House we had made a commitment to Manitobans, which, I believe, the majority of Manitobans ultimately believe in. That is, a large portion of that money-we proposed half of that new revenue-has to go into reducing the tax load of average Manitobans and working Manitobans.

It has to go to reducing that tax load. [interjection] The Minister of Industry (Ms. Mihychuk) talks about health care. Well, I will tell you, she will discover in her days in Cabinet that Health can consume every penny of that money, every penny of it. In fact, I would even suppose that she and some of her colleagues have already told the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) that he is spending more of his share than he should,

11 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 because they are recogmzmg fully that health care wiii continue to grow and consume dollars. *( 1 5: 30) When you have that kind of increased revenue, that is the time you have to make a major policy choice as to what you will do with it. The New Democratic Party has made a very clear choice that very little of that money-what is it, less than $50 million of that $500 million? wiii actually go into tax reduction. They are saying that we will use all that money in increased spending.

We wiii build it into the base of government, and we will only give a little bit back. Now, Mr. Acting Speaker, do not get me wrong. That is a legitimate position in public policy that they are taking. They are saying to Manitobans, the people of Manitoba: We believe that all of this additional money must go into spending. Very little will go into tax relief. Now, if they would just say that honestly. we could debate the merits of that issue. Do they do that? No. They take those few crumbs. and they say we are on the tax reduction.

We are acting responsibly, because they know that working Manitobans, the people they claim to represent-and I only say claim because we know they do not- those people want tax relief, need tax relief, must have tax relief. All they will get out of members opposite is the story that they are getting tax relief when they are not. They will get the words. They will get the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) saying: Oh, I tell you, we gave them $75 back on their property tax, even though in most cases of the tax bills I have seen. people are now paying more than last year. Right?

All they will give those Manitobans are words and a few crumbs, because they funda mentally want those dollars to go into expenditure. I will make a prediction that, as we get into the Estimates process, we will find all kinds of things that they have added into the funding in their budget that took a decade to wean Manitobans off of. We will find grants to different organizations and groups and other things that have worked their way in, that are part of the secret political promises of the last election. We remember Gary Doer standing up with the five promises, do we not?

But, you know what, if you turn it around and you- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): Would the House come to order. Would you please allow the Member to speak. Thank you. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Acting Speaker, we all remember that little pamphlet with the five promises, but what they did not tell you is when you turned it around and you went over a candle, in invisible ink were written the secret promises, the commitments made to a host of organi zations: Vote and get us into power and we will take care of your-we wiii not tell the public, because we are going to pull the wool over their eyes. We know that already. We have heard the Minister of Education talk about repealing provisions in the education act that will take out a simple little part of the arbitration process called ability to pay.

What is it there for? To simply say that arbitrators have to take into account the ability of the population, the working men and women of this province who pay taxes, what tax load they can carry . This government says, we will take it out because we cut a secret deal with the Manitoba Teachers' Society for their support. That will happen. Ms.

Bonnie Korzeniowski, Acting Speaker, in the Chair I would bet you we will see some labour law changes brought in to get and secure the support of Bernie Christophe and United Food and Commercial Workers, who, by the way, I have noticed, on a personal note, I have yet to see them talking about the fact the New Democrats are still keeping the food system in the hospitals. It is funny how UFCW has forgotten that issue. So we will see that little secret promise worked in. We will see other promises. You know, the Manitoba Nurses' Union. What do we see now?

Our wonderful 25-year ads: Whatever the Government says, we do, and to Maureen Hancharyk, New Democrat I was born, New Democrat I will die. We have yet to see what

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 79 secret promises were made to Maureen Hancharyk, but I know they are there, and we will find them there. Let us not forget the casino issue. Boy, did we hear the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) campaigning on the streets, on Edison, on Henderson Highway. Did we see the Member for Rossmere saying, vote for us and we will add five casinos? Never. Madam Acting Speaker, I would love to ask the Member for Rossmere if the gurus of the New Democratic Party actually told him that that is what they were going to do. In fact, I would bet that ignorance is bliss.

Do not tell him and then he cannot be a liar to his voters. But it was part of the agreement. It was part of the deal. I heard about it throughout my riding, about the secret promise made by Gary Doer to promise those casinos, not two casinos, like the Bostrom report said, not three, not four, but five casinos. You know what is most interesting about it? What is most interesting about this secret promise is that they knew that if they actually went to the public to talk about it, even if they went to First Nations communities, there are concerns, legitimate concerns. So what did they do in this honeymoon period?

We will set up a two-person committee. We will hide behind it. We will have no public consultation because, my goodness, we always live up to our secret promises, do we not. Secret promise No. 4, the casinos- An Honourable Member: How could it be secret if you knew about it? Mr. Praznik: Well, I will tell you, because the New Democratic Party leaks. Because people they made the promise to were talking about it, and they told me very clearly in many of those First Nations communities, we are voting NDP because they promised us our casino.

The only thing is, you know, it is going to be interesting, because they promised it in more than five places. That is the little problem now. But you know what I am enjoying about this too is, how do ministers like the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale), how does that minister reconcile that vote? I mean, will he get together with the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), who opposed casinos, but was picketing with casino workers? I guess they will reconcile those somehow. So, we know about those four secret promises of the NDP.

There will be more and they will come out, because they were there in invisible ink. You know what they will cost? Not only the people of Manitoba but they will cost the credibility of members opposite, because those were secret deals, secret commitments, secret promises. And you know who pays for them? The people of Manitoba will pay for them. They will pay the price many times over. Madam Acting Speaker, I cannot resist this because the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) talked about MTS.

By her own government's budget documents, MTS is still one of the lowest cost telephone systems in Canada in their own analysis. So, here we have a government who for the first time, and I look to the Member for Lakeside, in many a decade has had that luxury of $500 million of increased revenue. They have chosen to use it only on expenditure. I suspect to fulfill many of their secret election promises, not the five they made public. But you know what is worse?

And this is what I believe is the seeds of the destruction of that administration, and it is in their own documents, crafted as good as any spinner can to try to hide the truth. The truth will prevail and that is that Manitoba is quickly becoming one of the highest taxed jurisdictions in the country. You can only say so long: Well, the year 2000, your tax rate-how the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) can with a straight face, and I notice when he is interviewed his eyes blink very rapidly which suggests to me he knows that he is not telling the truth to the public, because he knows that he had the opportunity.

He could have used some of that $500 million to reduce income tax rates in Manitoba this year. He chose not to, in fact, he and his leader have conspired to take the things that Manitobans have worked hard for to lower their costs of living, things like Manitoba Hydro, things like MPIC that are our advantages. Instead of having them there as our advantages, instead of those being the things that

11 80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 with competitive taxes make us a far more favourable place to live and do business, they have squandered them. They are using them, they are taxing them, in essence away from the people of Manitoba. You know, it is great to put MPIC in, we have lower than most provinces on automobile insurance. Well, the reason we do is because we had to change our automobile scheme to no-fault, so that people in Manitoba who are injured in accidents receive less benefits than other provinces. That was a decision to control automobile costs.

Manitobans, with the support of virtually all members of the Legis lature, I believe with the Liberal Party, brought in no-fault insurance to curb the costs of automobile insurance, to give us cheaper automobile rates, and we did it, but we accepted less benefits. * (15 :40) Now, the First Minister and the Minister of Finance turn around and say: We will squander that saving to Manitobans by taxing it away. Manitoba Hydro, that is something we are all very proud of that I had the privilege of being minister of for two years, that is a great competitive advantage.

The Minister of Finance and the Premier included in their numbers to say you could pay higher taxes because you pay less hydro than Ontario. We heard the First Minister say it. Did you see the rates in Ontario? Well, yes, they are higher. That is our advantage and he is taxing them away, squandering it away with that higher provincial income tax rate. You know, if you look at every jurisdiction in the world that has had difficulty with its economy, that has struggled to become a prosperous economy, what have they done? What is the secret?

This has been adopted by socialist governments, by labour governments, by Conservative governments. Every jurisdiction that has turned an economy around to be prosperous and growing has followed some simple rules, whatever their political philosophy. That is that taxation in areas that reduce the desire to earn, that take away competitiveness, whether they be payroll taxes, whether they be income taxes, that if you do not have com petitive tax rates in those areas, if you do not lower them and increase the incentive for people to work and earn, your economy will stagnate.

What we are seeing now is the New Democrats in Saskatchewan, who, by the way, had very similar fiscal policies to the Filmon Conservative government, knew that they had to reduce their income tax rates if they were going to have any hope of surviving in the new economy, particularly being near a province like Alberta, and they did. Harris in Ontario has reduced his rates so significantly that, what is it, some almost $3, 000 difference, almost $3,000 difference in income tax rates between Manitoba and Kenora to the border. That will continue to grow. But, the New Democrats, what do they say?

Your hydro is cheaper in Manitoba. So, again. squandering that benefit. Your automobile insurance is cheaper. Squandering the- The Acting Speaker (Ms. Korzeniowski): Order, please. The din is getting rather high. Can we please, all sides of the House, give the courtesy to the speaker to pay attention and keep the noise down. Mr.

Praznik: So, Madam Acting Speaker, what we have seen is a conscious decision by this new administration to take all of the dollars, virtually all of the dollars of new revenue, this huge amount of new money, and put it into spending, build it into base spending, and have found virtually no tax relief or minimal tax relief. I could accept it if they were honest about it, if they actually said to the people of Manitoba, on your behalf, we have agreed to take virtually all the new money and put it into spending and give you only a limited tax relief.

If they were honest with their voters, I would agree that that is their policy. We take a different view. But, no, they have got to spin it, they have got to put the story on it that, oh, we are into the tax relief game too. We are giving you $75 per household. Well, Manitobans, when they get their property tax bills, are not going to be jumping for joy. I have already had calls from people who have got their bills. Some are a few dollars lower, many are a few dollars higher. The fact of the matter is it is not going to get them the spin and the kick that they expect it to be.

They will one day eventually have to stand before the people of Manitoba and answer for

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 81 the decisions that they made in this budget, which was to take $500 million of hard-earned money by working Manitobans and put it into spending, when those same working Manitobans are looking for some greater degree of tax relief. You know what, the real shame of this is every day young Manitobans make a choice about where they are going to go. They are not choosing to stay here. They are choosing to leave. That was a problem we would have had if we were re-elected, and they certainly have, but they are not competitive.

Those people are slipping away, and you will not see them. They are just gone. They have gone to Calgary, they have gone to Ontario, they have gone to the United States. Yes, they will have a few more good years. In fact, again it is interesting, in the Minister of Finance's (Mr. Selinger) own documents, he predicts over the next four years he will have an increase of, is it well over a billion dollars in increased revenue?

My goodness, if there ever was a time in the last 35 or 40 years in Canada, in Manitoba, that a government had an oppor tunity to do some significant reduction of taxes on an overtaxed population, the time was now. But that is gone, wasted away, fretted away by members opposite as they deliver on their secret promises, their secret agendas that they promised in the last election. The Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) said give us a number. We did in the election. We committed to half of our increased revenue going into tax reductions. We put that number down squarely to the people of Manitoba.

We did not win the election, but that is our policy and our position. They can spin the story today; they can spin it out tomorrow; but I will tell you in a year, two years, three years from now, do you know where it will start? It will start in western Manitoba. It will start in eastern Manitoba, particularly, in the west. It will start in the Russell constituency, in the Swan River constituency as those people look at what people are paying across the border in Saskatchewan. They will know. They will see the difference.

It will spread in from the west, and it will come out of Kenora as people go there and see the tax levels and make decisions to make that their residence. And it will spread in from the east, and by the next general election in four years, it will be right here at this Legislative Building. Manitobans will realize that they are overtaxed, that we are not a competitive province, that we are starting to move into a period of decline, and they will hold members opposite responsible for the decisions, the seeds that they have planted in this budget.

All I ask them is at least to be honest with the people of Manitoba, to tell them that their choice was to take virtually every new dollar of money that working Manitobans have paid into the Treasury, that their choice was to take that money and put it into expenditure and throw back a few pennies to the workers in the streets. That is what they did. At least, be honest in what they say because the spinners at the end of the day will hang them out, and I look forward to that day.

I tell you it is with regret, Madam Acting Speaker, that I have to stand here today and say that I cannot support that budget, because it is a budget that is casting the die for the failure of our province, the failure for our young people, and it will hang on their heads. * (15 :50) Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Good afternoon, Madam Acting Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to stand today and voice my support for this budget that was based on five sound principles, five sound promises that were laid out very clearly to the people of Manitoba in the last election. There was no subterfuge whatsoever.

We made five strict commitments to the people that are very accurately reflected in the Budget that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) tabled this past week. Despite all this rhetoric that we hear from the members of the Opposition, speaker after speaker after speaker on tax cuts, they just do not seem to get that the bottom line is that the people of Manitoba voted and elected this New Democratic Government on this platform. Tax cuts were not part of our agenda. We promised to rebuild our society here, a process of rebuilding that is going to reverse 10 years of neglect and decline.

The people of Manitoba were finally fed up with it, quite frankly, and

11 82 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16 , 2000 elected this Manitoba Government, this Manitoba Government, this New Democratic Government on these five basic principles. Madam Acting Speaker, our No. 1 promise to the people, there was no subterfuge or nothing secret about it, was that we were going to deal with the decline in the health care system. That was our No. 1 priority. My experience of going door to door in the Interlake was this is what people wanted.

On that front, I would like to just delve into what the neo-Conservative formula is as far as this tax cut agenda goes and how it applies to things like the health care system. It is quite obvious to me they have bought into this globalist mentality, this neo-Conservative men tality of privatization, sell off all your Crown corporations, and what do you do with the proceeds? You give a tax cut to your rich friends basically is what it boils down to. Unfortunately, for them there are more poor people in Manitoba than there are rich people, and that is why we are sitting on the Government side today.

Now, they might want to deny that they had no objective and no desire to dismantle the health care system, but the examples being set by their arch leader in Alberta, Mr. Klein, where he is in the process of privatizing the health care system in Alberta. Now, this was attempted in Manitoba not too many years ago when they made an attempt to privatize the health care system. I seem to recall the home care system, was it not? Yes, they were going to privatize the home care system . Madam Acting Speaker, I would like one of them to stand up and explain to me how this was supposed to benefit the people of Manitoba.

You privatize a home care system. How does that benefit the person that is receiving that care? A privatized company, their objective is to make money. They are only dealing with a limited amount of capital; therefore, they are going to make money by doing two things. They are either going to cut wages to the point where people are working for minimum wage or less, or they are going to reduce their services.

The net result would have been substandard care for our seniors who have worked and paid taxes all of their lives, and that would have been their reward if they had stuck with this Conservative government and this privatization agenda which they keep trumpeting to us day after day here. The public health care system is something that came about as a result of the socialist horde that the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) was referring to yesterday, this socialist opium of tax and spend, this socialist disease he referred to it as such, the socialist fever, et cetera, ad nauseam.

The health care system in this country was the result of socialist-minded people who concentrated first and foremost on the poor in this country. The No. I proponent of this was the most Honourable Tommy Douglas who was the first leader of the New Democratic Party in Canada. Quite frankly, to listen to the Member for Springfield yesterday go on and on about the Albanian socialist bastion, terminology like that I thought was quite inappropriate. How they were going to reach down into that socialist pit and so on and so forth.

I do not think that the Member for Springfield is worthy of touching the hand of as great a man as Mr. Tommy Douglas was. God rest his soul. Now, I talked to a good supporter in the Interlake during the election. His name was Roger Lowe, and he came from Saskatchewan prior to that period when they had socialized medicine. He described to me what turned him into a New Democrat. It was the fact that back then if you did not have the money, Madam Acting Speaker, quite frankly, you could not afford to go to the hospital. That is exactly what happened with his mother.

The end result was that she died, because she could not afford to have health care. So if we promised to restore this system, and we did, that was our No. I priority, which is what got us el ected, that is what we are going to concentrate on. Taxation is a necessary com ponent of that, and we will continue to tax responsibly. We have addressed tax reductions to some degree, but I will go into that just a little bit later. Now, our second main commitment was something very similar. What are the two main components of a good, modern democratic society? A good health care system, so that you

May 16 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 83 do not have to worry about looking after yourself if you are sick and unable to care for yourself. The No. 2 thing is that the state subsidizes your education so that everybody in the country, in the province receives an adequate education. Now, part of their privatization agenda, once again, became clear over the course of their last mandate here. It goes without saying that the cuts to the education system were ongoing and deplorable. This is something that our Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) is going to rectify now, but they might deny it.

The example is there in the Youth News Network. This was an unconscionable attempt to infi ltrate into the classrooms, to basically sell out to large, multinational corporations that thought they could buy into our classrooms. I applaud the Minister in that he took such a strong stand against this and that we are going to maintain public control over the education of our children. That was our second commitment. The people of Manitoba seemed to accept that as well. We have committed to a number of initiatives, the Healthy Child Initiative, for example. We have reconstituted a bursary pro gram.

That has been out over the course of the previous administration's reign, so on and so forth. The friendship centres are finally receiving funding here. That is something that is long overdue as well. So, on all these fronts, this government is taking action. The people of Manitoba requested it, and they are going to get it under our administration. Now, our third commitment was to hang on to our Crown corporations. Manitoba Hydro, we put it down on the table that we are going to keep this Crown corporation no matter what. The previo

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-28
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 28.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b0304fe2f89a71f5b17554dd4e477cbadc3af9de

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