PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 90 4th. Session 34th. Gener:al Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, JUNE 2, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HdNOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 1 The Mr. House met at ~ Speaker in the Chair. PRESEN1'ING PETITIONS DR. JAMES A. McGRATH: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here from six or seven of the northern settlements in St. Mary's Bay; attached to it are 1,300 signatures. The prayer of the petition is that we, the undersigned, do hereby petition both the Federal and Provincial Government to continue and complete the road from the community of North Harbour to the community of Branch, St. }~ry's Bay. The advantages of this road are the saving of thirty-five to forty miles of road to the Branch people which incidentally, Mr.

Speaker, is the biggest, single settlement in St. Mary's Bay. It will benefit the transportation of fish plants; accessibility to travel salmon rivers; a great tourist potential by opening up the most scenic area and the most beautiful salt-water beach in Eastern Newfoundland at Barachois. The improvements will add a great deal to the communities - in the main communities: Collinet, North Harbour, Branch and other northern settlements of St. Mary's Bay. I would wish, Mr. Speaker, most strongly to support this petition.

I do not know, if any members of the House are familiar with that particular area, but it is one of t~e most extraordinary undeveloped areas, I would say, in the whole country. It has one terrific advantage. I do not know, if it exists anywhere else and that is that the place called Barachois, where there is an enormous land-locked lagoon with a beautiful sandy bottom that has warm salt water all through the summer, from June on.

The reason being that the entrance to it is comparatively small - the area of water is very large and the affect of the sun on the water over the sand warms up the water in this huge area and the warm-up does not escape and by the time that some of it I • has gone out, the tide has turned again and, therefore, it retains a large amount 5700

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 2 Dr. McGrath. of warm salt water that gradually builds up. It would be quite close to the continuation of this road, and I think, myself, that once this became accessible, it would become the finest summer resort in all Newfoundland and I would think, possibly, as good aS_ anything anywhere in North America. Because, as we know, warm salt water is almost nonexistent in this country. This is one of the few places that would be ideal as a summer resort. It is a tremendous place for sea trout and salmon.

There are, at least, three fine salmon and sea trout rivers there that are practically untapped. The commercial value of the place is also quite high. There is a tremendous lot of very fine timber there and, of course, with the opening up of the plant at Come-by-Chance, there will be a source of income to the residents around that place. Pulp wood could, very easily, be brought by water from there to the plant in Come-by-Chance. The scenic beauties down there are terrific,and it has about four or five advantages that would make it well worth developing.

About, I think, three to four years ago about twelve miles of road or so veT• built with the help of the Federal Government. In fact, I think, almost exclusively at the expense of the Federal Government. It needs about another twelve to fifteen miles to complete the road through to Branch and the prayer of the petition is that this be done and I very, very strongly support it. I accept it and table it and forward it to the department to which it refers. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. RON. J. R. S}~LLWOOD (Premier): Nr.

Speaker, I never supported a petition with greater pleasure than I do this one for the very good reason, I suppose, and the very sufficient reason that I am the person who started that road in the flrst place. The peninsula that is separated by Placentia Bay more or less to the 5701

June 2st., 1970 Tape no. 1071 Page 3 Mr. Smallwood. west and St. Mary's Bay to, more or less, the east - that great peninsula is now reachable by road running south from Placentia, along the Cape Shore to Branch, and there it ends. Now it ought not to end at Branch. It ought to go around the point, around the corner so to speak of that great peninsula and come up the east side of the peninsula or the west side of St. Mary's Bay. It would open up one of the most dramatically beautiful parts we have on this Island of Newfoundland today.

Last Fall, I drove up to Branch for the first time in many, many years, and I was astounded by the beauty of that landscape, the beauty of the whole shore, the whole coast. It was nothing short of dramatic up to and including Branch itself which strikes me as being one of the most spectacular soots we have in our Province today. Now,I have had one !light in my life that gave me a glimpse of the east coast of that peninsula or the west side of St.

Mary's Bay where we did set out to build a road all the way up that coast to Branch, in which case, we would have a road encircling the whole peninsula, and I know that there is a very important stand of timber on that peninsula, which as the hon. member presenting the petition has reminded us, could be harvested and marketed at Come-by-Chance or for that matter anywhere as valuable pulp wood and in the marketing provide a living, a decent living for a good many men for a great many years to come; especially, if it is properly harvested and spread out and not allowed just to be butchered and destroyed in three or four or five years.

It could be rationed. It could be orgainized in such a way as to provide a living for so many men for many, many years to come. The scenery on that side of the bay used to be described to me by Mr. Gregory Power who had often gone up there bv boat, landed on this very beach in this Barachois and done some swimming, he and his family, in that lagoon, which I am told and which the hon. member now confirms is one of the most 5702

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 4 Mr. Smallwood impressive things of its kind, perhaps, the most impressive to be found in this Province today. It is a place that is rich in fi•h, salt watar trout, salmon and other trout, rich in scenic beauty and rich in natural resources, and we do not know what these resources are. We know of the timber, but has that peninsula ever been looked at carefully from a gao logical point of view. I have my doubts. I doubt : .very much that it has ever received a great deal of attention.

The Minister of Education tells me that there are spots up there where there is grass growing and places to which fishermen for many years past have gone, inqeed, to cut wild grass. It is an entrancing part of the Province, and I support the petitbn gladly.and I hope that it may prove to be possible, if not this year, well then as soon as may be to resume the construction of the road. I think we have finished twelve miles of it. I think the hon. member for the district may be wrong. I think he may be wrong, when he assumes that the full cost of that was borne by Ottawa. Now he may be right. I do not think so.

At any rate, it was our idea to build it, wherever the money came from, whether out of our own Treasury or out of Ottawa, via our own Treasury. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Brown. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, I do not think he had anything whatever to do with it. I do not think so. I am not sure that he was in the Cabinet at that time. I am not sure he was in the House of Commons at that time. In all events it had nothing to do with Hr. Brown. We were very proud of the road at the time, and if I were asked to save my life, I would not be able to say now, why we did drop it. I suppose other things seemed to be more pressing.

After all - no, no, Mr. Brown had no more to do with it than the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Nothing at all - nothing. Why should I deprive him of any credit that is due - why should I? He is no longer a political opponent. He is just a retired 571}~

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 5 Mr. Smallwood. gentleman and, as I will be, eight or ten years from now, and we will meet occasionally and compare notes, after I have retired. Why should I have any feeling toward him} I am willing to give him any credit that is due him. But I do not think any credit is due him at all in connection with that road. However, as I say, I warmly support it and I hope that it may be possible this year to do something about it, to get the thing reactivated. I would love to get it done. I would love to drive over it.

I would love to have the pleasure of opening it, of cutting the ribbon on that beautiful road and the member for the district and w~will go up there together and if,after careful research?we find that Mr. Brown, as even a.s muchfcocked an eyebrow, even if he as much as -if .he just as much as spoke in favour of it, I would invite Mr. Brown to come along with us and as the Leader of the Opposition, today, is in favour of it, I take it he is in favour of itC He is going to speak in favour of it. If he does, if he favours it, then I will invite him along to watch me cutting the ribbon. MR. ANTHONY J.

MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to thank the hon. Premier forlis kind invitation, and I know that someone will be weeping in the Chair that he will be sitting in. Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition, I do so, because it is one of the great mysteries to me why this beautiful area, in all the years, and those of us who have spent many, many years on the Salmonier Line, fishing so on and so forth, all down through St. Mary's and perhaps it is a little away from the subject, but why the main road to Placentia was not continued through on the Salmonier Line to tie in St.

Mary's Bay, I can never understand -bt\Q. it. I do not know what the hon. member feels about~thing but I could never understand it. So many thousands of people use that area and you have access to: St. Mary's Bay area, Collinet, North Harbour so on and so forth and the: road today. I suppose the funds available went to pl,ces of greater urgency. 57 0 il

June 2nd.,~970 Tape no 1071 Page 6 z.m. MURPHY: I am talking about the access road that fronts through the wilderness. I do, very sincerely, support this, because after all, if you want to go to Branch now or St. Brides or any of these, you have to travel, either go down the access road and right through Placentia, Jersey Side right on or take the Salmonier Line right through down the southeast and then across through Point Verde out through, and I think this road from North Harbour will cut aTmost in a straight line due west, I presume, JP.R. McG~•TH: It will take about thirty to forty miles off. MR.

MURPHY: Yes. When the hon. member speaks of the scenery, no doubt about it, lf anybody drives from Point Verde across to Branch and hits these hills and vales, it is really a breath-taking scene, and I could never understand again why Branch is in the district of St. Mary's and St. Brides is in Placentia East and you have to drive to three of these places to get out and the only way the hon. member could get to his district is leave Hurley's Bridge there around Salmonier and drive right through. But, Mr. Speaker, that is beside the point.

I think that it would be a wonderful thing, and I understand that right through there, there is a beautiful plateau of great grazing and what not. I hear quite often about sheep grazing and cattle grazing, and I am very much in favour of this petition and I support it very heartily, indeed. l1onN c. 1-m.r.CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, I would also like to speak in support of this petition. There is no district in the Island of Newfoundland that more badly needs money spent. on roads than the district of St. Hary's.

I cannot think of any district where the roads are worse. ~.HIC~~= Fortune Bay would give you a good run for your money. _z.m. CROSBIE: Well, Fortune Bay does not have many roads, but in St. Hary's Bay where they do have roa~)they are not in very good condition and not only for new roads and reconstruction of roads but paving of roads is badly needed. _pR HcGRJ.'EH: If these roads are bad, in your opinion, the hon. gentleman must have a very high standarrl, indeed. St. Hary 's roads are not as bad as you indtc11.te. 57llr.

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 7 Mr. Cresbie. My experience of driving on the roads in the St. Mary's District is that they are extremely bad and among the worst of a~y in Newfoundland, as far as the condition of roads are concerned1and if anything can be done in ~t' St. Mary's Bay to improve the roads~is something well-worth doing and, therefore, we support this petition. HON. G. A. FRECKER (~anister of Provincial Affairs): Hr. Speaker, i t is verv nice to see both sines of the House so genially supporting a very worth-while project, and I would like to add a few words in support of the plea.

It was my pleasure last summer to attend the Fisheries Conference or meeting rather up on the Cape Shore and Mr. Alden Maloney and myself went by helicopter. We passed over all that area. Everything that the Premier. and the hon. member for St. Mary's have said, we could see the road as far as it went, where it ended, the bridges that were incomplete and the magnificent country side for trouting and fishing and everything else.

It was also a pleasure of mine years ago to spend a very pleasant fishing trip at Little Barachois, and I can vouch for the statement made by the previous speakers of the attraction of that particular area. Now quite apart from that altogether, I think, if they did not have any of these things, we should stillsupport this petition very whole- heartedly. For one thing, you have the Economic Development Committee on also the Branch side - the St. Mary's Bay side, and you,have an.' Economic Development Committee recently developed or come into existence on the Placentia Bay side of the Cape Shore.

These two committees are coming to grips with their economic and social problems, and we should do everything in our power to ··facilitate their work. They are trying to develop sheep raising and agricultural possibilities something such as what is being -done in the Eastport araar and anybody who knows what is happening at Eastport will say that that is something that should be promoted wherever possible over the Island . The Cape Shore is a natural. It has the grass lands. It has the fishing. 57llG

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 8 It has the bakeapples. It has, you mention it, Mr. Speaker, and it is there potentially. There was a time, I understand,when the Cape Shore really felt quite on top of the parts of the area that have now come into their own; namely, Placentia and all of this area.

I was told by some very elderly people on the Cape Shore that there was a time , when the Cape Shore sort of was an agricultural feeder for that whole area and there is tremendous agricultural and economic potential, including the fisheries on that Cape Shore; So, we should do everything humanly possible to support this petition. HON. F~. W. RO~~ (Minister of Education): Mr. Chairman, just for the sake of the record, I would like to add a word in support of this petiticn.

As it happens, it was one of the last documents fhat I signed, as ~tinister of Highways and so I want it to be recorded that this particular road was part of the first Atlantic Development Board program whereby they offered to help us. I think the maximum - I am speaking from memory now. I think the ceiling was a total of $ 7 million. My hon. colleague may remember.

I think it was $7 million and on a 50/50 basis, and we were asked to submit - we were asked to submit projects for consideration, and I want it to be recorded that in that list, this particular road was included for submission to ADB at the insistence of the hon. the Premier and the member for the district. I would like, also, to add, in fairness, to my hon. friend - my hon. friend seems, it seems that his breakfast did not agree with his digestion this morning, if I judge from the sour look on his fact. I should say, in fairness also that on many occasions in this House, I heard the hon. W.J.

Brown, when he was a member of this House_expatiate and elaborate on the virtues of that particular region and the need for roads there 1 so that should be recorded. This road was actually included in our program at the wsistence of the Premier and member for the district, and it was 5707 y . t :I I l l

JW\e 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1071 Page 9 Mr. Rowe (F. W. ) the first. There were several other p~ajects. By the way that is how the Bay d1 Espoir road, the great highway that is now built, was first started. The first segment of that came under ADB as did a portion of the Baie Verte highway and a portion.of the Trinity-South highway. There were five projects, I think, altogetqer and four of them, I remember, and there was a fifth. I think it was the connecting link between the road to the Isle and Gander Bay. I think that came under that project as well.

It is worth recording, however, that this was part of the first ADB project undertaken in Newfoundland. I would like to support it. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to prolong the . debate. I feel that I should rise to support this petition. I travelled over the roads of a the Cape Shore for four and.,half years, and I can well appreciate the wishes of the people of Branch and St. Brides who have to travel over that very hazardous road.

I certainly add my support to the petition and I would suggest, Sir, that not only should that road be built but when it is build it should be paved and the Salmonier Line paved as well. MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? NOTICE OF MOTION. HON. L.R. CURTIS (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "Ali Act To Amend The Chairman Of The Board Of Public Utilities Pension Act, 1968." ;. . ' HON. W. R. CALLAlliL~ (Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tommrrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend And Consolidate The Law Respecting The Disposal Of Waste Materials." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS HON. J. R. CHALKER (Minister of Public Works): Mr. Speaker, Questbn 558 on the Order Paper of Hay 29th., asked by the hon. member for Humber East. It is pretty well in baby talk, Sir, and I de not think there is any doubt of anybody misunderstanding 57GB

MR. JONES: Pretty well,in baby talk, Sir, I do not think there is any doubt of misunderstanding him. Mr. F.W. ROWE: Yesterday, or it may have been the day before, Friday, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition, I think it was the Leader of the Opposition, asked for information regarding the inventory in the Book Bureau. Who was I • that? The member for St. John's West, somebody over there asked for that information. And I undertook to give it, and to answer it during the question period.

I have the answer here now, anyone who is interested in it, at the end of the school year in 1966, the Inventory was $252,000, in round figures. In 1967, the Inventory was $192,000. In 1968, it was $186.000. In 1969 it was a $147,000.

And in 1970, right now,it not the end of the s~hool year, it is now $532,000, and this of course, is a logical thing, because the Inventory is now building up, and will build up to about $2 million, by around the first of July, at which time, of course, the shipment of books out to the schools of Newfoundland start and by the end of September the Inventory will probably be at its lowest point again, probably down to $100,000. MR. MURPHY: If there are no changes in the mean while, they will be able to use these in our schools, the various textbooks.

There are so many changes, it m~st be quite a handful now compared to other years. MR. ROWE, F.W.: Because we have earned all of those changes. It is a big change to someone who has to get a new history in Grade Xl or Grade X, but all the total number of books - MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR., ROWE, -F .. W. Any way these are the figures, Mr. Speake~-, the inventory builds up. the point I want to make the inventory builds up until about the lat. July. the orders are coming in, and then they start to go down and probably goes down to its lowest point in the Fall of:the year. HON. E.S. JONES: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr.

Speaker, on the Order Paper of today, Question No, 445, Does the Government of Newfoundland hold in trust or i~ any other manner an amount of money belonging or claimed to 5709

MR. JONES: belong to the Newfoundland Federation of Fishermen? The answer is ~'no". And therefore parts two and three do not apply. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the Minister permit a question? What happened to the $600,000.or $700,000 a number of years ago, that was referred to as being held for the fishermen? I y. MR. JONES: Right, but this question says; the Newfoundland Federation of ' Fishermen, not the fishermen of Newfoundland. MR. WELLS: Well, Okay. Would the minister answer that question, is that the amount that is really referred to the Fishermen of this Province?

It did not belong to the Federation. MR. CROSBIE: This question just says, claimed to belong, he does not say it belongs. MR. JONES: Probably the hon. the member for Gander would like to redraft his question. I am quite prepared to get the information. MR. COLLINS: Yes, there was a reason for asking the minister, on account of the Newfoundland Federation of Fishermen, because?as I recall it, a similar question was asked last year or the year before, whether it was in the name of the Newfoundland fishermen, we were told no. I will redraft the question, and get the answer 1 hopefully. MR.

JONES: Now, I would like to referred to Question 224. I attempted to table the answer yesterday, and the bon. the member for Fortune Bay injected to say that the answer_ had already been given. Part (1) he said, an answer had been given that the amount outstanding was $28,446,000, actually I have corrected this answer, the amount advanced was $28,446,000. But the answer given in my answer, the amount outstanding as of the 1st. Mar~h, which is $27,795,207.65. And to refer to a supplementary question raised by the hon. the Chief, as he called himself, the hon. the member for St. John's West.

I would refer him to page three, as I indicated yesterday,of my statement of March 5th., at the bottom of page three, with referen~es to the Auditor General's comments on paragraeh 27, in his report, where I stated as follows: 5710

MR. JONES: Paragraph 27, merely provides details of the prepaid expenses and deferred charges, and in this connection it should be noted, that the arrears on the R.C.M.P. service rental contract for the period 1st. of October, 1968 to March 31st. 1969 reflects the normal situation as payments are always made of six monthly periods. I Now, 1 understand further this morning, Mr. Speaker, that if 1 • we have not received a bill from the. R.C.M.P., we do not consider that we owe them money. When we received a bill, we pay it.

And apparently the R.C.M.P. are never in a hurry to present their bills, so at any one time, we owe them the money, we know we owe it to them, and they know we will pay it. We have not received the bills, so we do not know it. AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. JONES: Well that has not happened yet, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, before we get 4n Orders of the Day, I have a question which 1 was going to direct to the Premier, actually it does not matter whether it i~ to the Premier or the Minister of Finance.

Arising out of the Federal Government's recent decision, decision over the weekend, to unpeg, as it were, set the Canadian Dollar loese and let it float on the International Money Market, and the possible serious repercussions certainly some adverse affects on Newfoundland exports, such as fish,and pulp and p~per 1 what is the Newfoundland Government's official position in this regard? And what representation has · been made, if any, to Ottawa? I wouder~could the Minister respon~? MR. JONES: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to that question is this, that as early as eight thirty yesterday morning, we were in touch with our financial advisers, ~~ and Company and others, eight thirty our time, I am afraid we had some of them out of bed, because of the three and a-half hour time differental, and we are taking a watching brief, if that is the way to put it, we feel that the Canadian Dollar has risen in the London Exchange. it is up,! think, four 5711

J.ape .J.v/£ rl( - 4 MR. JONES: points on the New York Exchange, and our information is that there are going to be some very, very rapid gyratiom in the Canadian Dollar for a short period. And we have been advised not to take any hasty action, make any snap decisions in the hope that the Canadian Dollar will very soon level off, and when this happens we would - i . AN HON. MEMBER: Hhat is it this 1110rning. ' MR. JONES: I did not hear this morning, I was in Cabinet, Mr. Speaker.

It is the feeling generally,in monetary and financially circles, that the Canadian Dollar will level off, and then it will be the time for the Newfoundland Government, and of course other governments as well,to take a look at the new position and formulate their policy_ accordingly. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I understand there is to be a Federal-Provincial Finance Ministers'Meeting in Winnipeg shortly, I presume the minister will be attending; has he formulated any policy or any position which he might take at that meeting? MR. JONES: I am attending along with the Comptroller of the Treasury, and Mr.

David Mercer our Senior Economist, Mr. Speaker, and probably by that time we will be in a better position to access what, I do not see how the Government of Newfoundland can formulate any policy , it is going to control the Canadian - MR. COLLINS: I believe the Federal Government needs some instruction somewhere. MR. JONES: I cannot see any stand, though, Mr. Speaker, honestly, that the Government of Newfoundland can take that is going to control the flucations in the Canadian Dollar.

We certainly will have certain representations to make, I have no doubt, that this matter will be on the agenda, Of course it is not on the proposed agenda at the moment, because the agenda was formulated before this thing happened on last Sunday afternoon. But I have no doubt in my mind that all Finance Ministers. and Premiers who will be attending will have something to say about this sudden change, and I am quite aware of the affect that this might ha~e or might not have depending on what happens on our export market in the fish, and in other things that we depend on for an exchange for. 57 _,

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Jmi'E 2nd. 1970 Tape 1072 PK - 5 MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I am in constant touch. MR. CROSBIE: I have a question for the Premier, Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day. And that is, can the Premier confirm or deny the report from Mr.

Andrew Chatwood, who is Executive Assistant to the Minister of Transport, that the Shaheen Group have agreed with the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland that they will pay five percent of their gross profits from the refinery operation at Come-by-Chance each yea~ to the Government of Newfoundland, and that this change is being made at the urging and assistance of the Government of Canada or the Minister of Transport? Could the Premier tell us something about that? It maybe, Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not hear the question. The question is, Is the report from Mr.

Andrew Chatwood, Executive Assistant to the Minister of Transport, MR. HICKMAN: Part of the Government of Canada. MR. CROSBIE: Part of the Government of Canada, that the Shaheen Group have had to agree to pay to the Government of Newfoundland five percent of their gross profits from the operation of the Oil Refinery each year, that this was insisted upon by the Government of Canada in return for their · !IPatidipg money at Come-by-Chance on the harbour improvements, whether that statement by Mr. Chatwood and as reported in the Tornto Globe and Mail quoting, Mr.

Jamieson, the Minister of Transport, whether that is correct or not? I am sure that the people of this Province, would be interesting in knowing whether there are going to be several millions of dollars each year from the Refin~ry Project coming to the Government of Newfoundland? ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, does the bon. the Premier want notice of the question, perhaps it might be better if it was put in writing. The Premier might understand it, does he want it. put on the notice! Notice of the Questions. MR. A:.. HICKMAN.! On Orders of the Day, Mr.

Speaker, [would like to direct a question to the bon. the Minister of Finar,ce. There was an announcement to- day of an alletted unholy alliance between tht! Governments of Ontario and 571:1

.nme .tna. ~':I IV l'ape lOU PK - 6 MR. HICKMAN: Quebec preparatory to the Finance Ministers Meeting in Winnipeg over the weekend, where they are going to call for a division of the tax-sharing agreement, which obviously if implemented will be to the detriment of this Province. Has the Minister of Finance or the Government of Newfoundland formulated any policy in opposition to this proposal, because it will seriously effect this Province? MR. JONES: No, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HICKMAN: Finally, Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, to the Minister of Highways, the

section of the Burin Peninsula Highway which is presently under construction and almost completed, the area between Piper's Hole River and five miles leading from their towards Terrenceville is practically impassible, in that the grade or sand that is being used at this time, probably necessarfly,is causing motor vehicles to be stuck there time after tt.a. Has the minister received any complaints?

Has the minister taken any remedial action, such as providing some of the heavy equipment there with towing gears to get the motor vehicles out of the difficulty they find themselves in, as one who was caught on Firday l I know what 1 am talking about. MR. STARKES : Mr. Speaker, I have not had any official complaints about it, I have heard that there was some difficulty in cars getting through. I will take it as no reflection, and get a report on it for the bon. gentleman. MR. HICKMAN: Just one suggestion..,. towing equiP1Jient would be a good help. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, before we·go to Orders of the Day, the answer tabled by the hon. the Minister of Public Works1 this morning, did not contain certain information that I had anticipated it might contain,as a result of statements that were made. The Government has answered a question tabled earlier by me in the House indicating that there was 49,500 total square footage area in the Janeway Apartments, that works out to $6167 per square foot. I brought to the attention of the Minister of Public Works, and asked him,on Jast Wednes,lay, if he would investigate, because it just seems out of wack. 5714

MR. WELLS: The minister's rather comtemptious answer was that he wanted a written notice of it put on the Order Paper.. I have since been talking to Mr. Arthur Lundrigan, who has indicated that there are in fact 100,290 square feet. That changed the picture entirely, and makes it at a cost of $30.44 a square foot. I wonder. if,in the absence of the Minister of Public t~orks, somebody else could confirm whether the figure 49 ,500 is correct or the figure 100, 290 is correct. Because it is rather important, and I think in fairness - MR • . SMALLWOODf Both are correct. MR. WELLS: How can both be correct?

Look, if there are 49,500 - the question is what is the total area' of the floor space constructed? Now which is the correct answer to that? Both, cannot be correct. Which is the correct answer to that question? ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. WELLS: On Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, since we now have gotten contemptious, obviously, an incredible_display. Mr.

Speaker, there is a rather important matter, very important to the peeple of this Province, extremely important, it just has arisen this morning, in fact, and I would like to aak the hon. the Premier, if he would confirm or deny, one thing or the other, the statement made by htm of a couple of days a~o, that the Shaheen Group would not be p~ying five percent of its ~ profits or any,did:not .aka any other concessions in favour of the Newfoundland Government, in the Rght of the &atement reported this morning, whereby Mr. Chatwood state that there is. Now the hon. the member for St.

John's West has asked the question and the Premier has sat comtemptiously silent. The people of this Province have a pretty big stake in this, and would he say one way or the other what is in fact the situation! 571~

MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, would the Premier confirm whether or not Mr. John Shaheen is correct in his state~ent reported over the weekend wherein he says that there has been no agreement by him nor his group to pay five percent of their gross profits to the Newfoundland Government in connection with the Refinery operation at Come-by-Chance. Will the Premier state whether or not Mr. Shaheen is correct in that statement because both Mr. Shaheen and Mr. Chatwood and Mr. Jamieson cannot be correct in saying directly opposite •• they have made two absolutely contradictory statements.

The Minister of Transport and his executive assistant that there has been agreement they pay five percent •• MR. SPEAKER: We are just repeating the question. This is the third time it has been asked. It is the same question. Now I do not think it is in order to ask the same question three times in the same sitting. MR. CROSBIE: I will naturally accept what the bon. Speaker says, but I am only asking it again because it is such an important matter. It could amount to tens of millions of dollars.

On Motion the hon.the Minister of Finance, a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend The Income Tax Act, 1961, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: 8-01-01 - Shall the Item carry? MR. CROSBIE: The Minister was going to speak last night •• but before we leave this general topic Mr.

Chairman, I just want to back up what I said last night when we were discussing the mineral policy of this Province, I pointed out and now I have brought the references so that there can be no doubt that in the Royal Commission Report on economic pwospects, the Pushie Royal Commission Report, the members were Mr. Douglas Fraser, John Gwubb, Arthur Lundrigan, Albert Martin, John McCarthy, Harold Mifflin, Frank D. Moores, John R. O'Dea, Albert B. Perlin, Chesley A. Pippy, H. D. Roberts, Norman H. Smith, Leo B. Stead. And in the

section of that Report that dealt 571G

with mining, the Mining Sector Report mentioned at Page 120, the Commission recommended that the Newfoundland Government take immediate steps to strengthen the Department of Mines. The Commission on Page 132 re~ommended that the concession system for mineral exploration be changed to meet the conditions that have arisen since its conception and that a new system be evolved. It drew attention to the fact that the taxes levied by the Newfoundland Government and the Mineral Industry of Newfoundland and Labrador appear to be somewhat more lenient than the mining taxes levied by other Provinces.

That was a quote from the report of their advisors, and they go on to say, "this is a somewhat mild comment," that is what the Commission said. A study of mining taxation is therefore urgently recommended, and this Commission suggests that such an investigation with the powers of a Royal Commission should be undertaken without delay. This proposed Commission should be asked to report before the end of 1968 •• while the Commission never reported Mr·. Chairman, because the Government has never appointed one despite that recommendation.

On Pagel35 of their Report, the Report prepared by the Mineral Resources Division of the Department of Mines at Ottawa, said a long-term progressive program to revise mineral legislation and taxation policy should be undertaken by the Provincial Government. And at the end of their Report on Page 147, here was the conclusion of these experts Mr. Chairman. The Mineral Industry of the Province operates under three inter- related shortcomings. Too few companies are active in exploration, that is one.

Funds available for exploration are inadequate, that is a second short- coming, and far too much land is held in concessions by a very few companies, that is the third shortcoming. And they go on to say, that it appears that the last condition has a strong overall effect on the others. That is the conclusions of these people who have studied the Mineral Policy and the way it is administered here in Newfoundland.

On Page 150 they say. ''Since the assessment of the overall mineral potential of the Province based on the number of known occurrences, and the ~eological environment is favourable, one is led to look for other reasons than l :n inadequate resource base to account for the relatively slow growth in the non --ferrous sector. This 5717

Commission after studytn~ the position Mr. Chairman, concluded that in the non ferrous, that is the non iron sector of the minerals of this Province, there has been relatively slow growth •• not a record since 1949 that one could be absolutely proud of and stand on, a record of relatively slow growth. The form of legislation, they go on to say, the form of legislation that resulted in ' enormous land concessions being ~iven to only a few companies, ~ · may now be considered as one of the causes of slow growth.

This is what they conclude, notwithstanding that the agreements provide for periodic surrendering of portions of such concessions, a large percentage of the most favourable mineral ground is now tied up for a considerable length of time. Company exploration expenditures in most cases are insufficient to warrant such large holdings. As a result some areas remain relatively unexplored. That is the conclusion of an impartial team of experts who examined the mineral situation in Newfoundland. And I referred last night Mr. Chairman, to this study done by the Atlantic Development Board.

Mineral Resources and the Atlantic Provinces, that was presented last year, and what did they say? They say, "a thorough examination of the economic effects of the present mineral rights, (this is Page 12) dispositions, policies and practices, suggests that the form of legislation that results in large land concessions being given to only a few companies, can be considered as one of the causes of slow growt~ in mineral industry development on the Island. The industry operates under three inter-related handicaps. Too few companies are active in exploration, that is one.

Funds available for exploration are inadequate, that is two, and far too much land is held in concessions by a very few companies. The few companies now operating, some of them not primarily in the mining business, do not possess the re~uired capital and know-how necessary to justify their large holding of mineral rights. From the exploration point·of view much favourable ground stands idle. Now these are the two reports I referred to last night, impartial studies done by people having no stake in the matter at all, and that is 571U

what they find to be the result of the Government's mineral exploration policy, and these are the weaknesses they point out and that they say should be changed. If the Premier can get up and dismiss it all (I have forgotten the word used last night) -- pathetic, pathetic arguments. These are not pathetic arguments Mr. Chairman. These are serious views on what the mineral policy of this Province should be and on its preteAt inadequacy. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, while we are still on Ministers' Salary, I would like to make one comment on one aspect of his duties and responsibilities as Minister of Mines.

And that is, for the enforcement of safety regulations in the mining industry in Newfoundland, and as I understand it, this is the absolute responsibility of the Minister of Mines and those who work for him. There is no suggestion, in fact it would be unthinkable, it would be crazy if it was ever suggested that the mining companies themselves would take over this responsibility of enforcing safety regulations in the mining industry.

The fact is that mining in any part of Newfoundland even open pit mining, is not the safest occupation in the world, and Governments every- where in North America or anywhere in the world where they have large mining operations, have very rigid safety rules; highly competent inspectors. They do not scimp on the monies that are to be spent on the protection of the miners who are engaged in this important industry. And we have in this Province certain safety regulations in the mines, and we have some mining inspectors. Now Mr.

Chairman, we have a most unusual and appa~ng, and I suggest, a complete advocation of responsibility by the minister and by Government with respect to the mines at St. Lawrence. About three years ago, the Fall of '66, or the Spring of 196 7, Government in 1 ts lvisdom, appointed a person to live and work permanently in St. Lawrence to monitor the radon count in the mines at St. Lawrence. This has worked pretty well. It has given the miners who work there a feelinp, of some security and that improvements in the safety regulations are being carried out.

And daily the radon count, radiations 1made by this employee, although not a permanent 5719

employee regrettably, this employee of the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources,in the person of a Mr. Rex, artd he has been doing very good work there. He has been doing yeoman service. But it is just too much for any one man to handle, and each day the readings, the radon count, or the radiation count for all parts of the mines at St. Lawrence, is shown, published, made available to the Union, made available to Company, and made available to the miners working in the mines in St. Lawrence. And this is as it should be because the person responsible for safety in the mines at St.

Lawrence, or the mines in Labrador City, is the Minister of Mines, nobody else. Certainly it is not the Iron Ore Company of Canada. They do not have the primary responsibility. The first responsibility rests with the Minister of Mines. And this Mr. Chairman, has I believe, brought to the miners of St. Lawrence, a certain degree of security and peace of mind. So much so that when the Royal Commission on St. Lawrence conducted its very intensive study into this problem in the mining industry in St. Lawrence. It commended the minister and Mr.

Rex for their effort in continuing this personal monitoring within the mines at St. Lawrence. But it went a step further, and in recommendation fourteen, it said as follows, and this is recommendation fourteen of the Royal Commission on radiation in St. Lawrence. "That until continuous personal monitoring is developed, two full-time radiation monitoring technicians should be employed in the mines in St. Lawrence, not because one technician cannot give a technically satisfactory picture of radiation conditions there at all times, but because workmen at St.

Lawrence are morally entitled to have every working place in the mines monitored once in every twenty-four hours and the results posted daily. And this Mr. Chairman, is most imnortant, because the slightest thing can happen to drive up the radiation count in the mines in St. Lawrence. A workman for instance can turn off a fan for the purpose of using a telephone, and inadvertently, leave without turning it back on and '~thin a matter of hours up goes the radiation count. And an exposure to that is not very desirable at all. And this is 5720

why the Royal Commission recommended that in addition to this one man who iR now working for the Department of Mines,t~~~ iecond monitoring technician be appointed on a full-time basis, so that there could be continuous around the clock inspection and monitoring of the radiation count in the mines ' at St. 'Lawrence. ; . Well last week, or the week before last, the Government through the Minister of Labour tabled a shocking paper indicating what Government was going to do with respect to the report of the Royal Commission at St. Lawrence.

And the one that is particularly relevant applies to the Department of Mines Agriculture and Resources, is the decision of Government concerning recommendation number fourteen. And Government's decision is as follows, according to this paper that was tabled. The operating company at St. Lawrence will now be asked to take over completely the cost of maintaining the Government monitoring technician as an employee of the Company. In other words, it is the responsibility of the company to implement this recommendation and that of the Department of Mines is to see this implementation is properly done. Now Mr.

Chairman, that is a complete and absolute advocation by the Minister of Mines, of his responsibility to insure the safety of miners in the mining industry at St. Lawrence or any other part of Newfoundland for that matter. Surely, nobody can take that seriously, that we are now going to turn over to the Company, the right to check on itself, the right, no matter how cautious a company is, even if it was capable of doing it •• even if it did do it, the fact is that if we are going to maintain within the minds of the miners at St.

Lawrence who have undergone more hardship than any single segment of the mining industry in this Province or probably in North America. If we are going to restore their confidence, and if ve are going to maintain it, and we have started to do it, they have slowly but surely realized that the Minister of Mines and the G overnment of this Province was be~innin~ to show some concern for their safety in the aopointment of this first monitoring 5721

technician. Now Mr. Chairman, let us see what the Minister of Mines has done. Not only has he refused to carry out the recommendation of the Royal Commission and appoint a second monitoring technician, ~ut he says that from here on in monitoring and checking on radiation count in the mine at St. Lawrence is going to be responsible for?the responsibility of the Company, I not of the minister, which means that Mr.

Rex or anyone who is there as ; 0 the monitoring technician will no longer be an employee of the Government •• He has never been accepted unfortunately as a full fledged recognized civil servant, but he has always been on a temporary basis there. And he too now, will pass out of the picture. And I suggest Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Mines by adopting this attitude, by refusing to discharge his responsibilities insofar as the mining industry at St. Lawrence, has done untold harm and damage to the morale of the miners in St. Lawrence.

That he has set back to where we were three years ago, the uncertainty and the conviction of . the miners in St. Lawrence that this Government does not appreciate their problems, that this Government is not interested in protecting them, is not interested in providing for the safety of the miners at St. Lawrence. And I feel as a member for the district of Burin, that this decision, this non• sensical paper that was tabled by the minister on May 20, the Minister of Labour 1 in this House, indicating what Government will do and what it will not do, and the emphasis seems to be on what it will not do-.

It is an absolute insult to the miners of St. Lawrence, a complete rejection of the main proposals in this Royal Commission report on radiation in St. Lawrence, and an absolute abrogation by the Minister of Mines in the discharge of his responsibility to protect the miners in St. Lawrence or indeed to protect the miners in any of the mining industries in Newfoundland.

And I was going to say with regret, but not with regret, because when I see this sort of cavalier treatment to the primary producer in this Province, and when I see this utter and wilful · and wanton disregard the rights of the primary producer, the rights of the miners in the mines at St. Lawrence by the Minister of Mines, then I have no hesitancy in moving, and I so move,that the minister's salary be reduced to one dollar. 5722

June 2nd. 1970 Tape 1074 'PJ: - 1 MR. CA'l.LAHAN: Mr. Chairman, if it were not for the fact that the bon. gentleman is working very hard net only to mislead this Houae, but alao to cause the kind of loss of confidence or breakdown in moral that he attributes to me or to the department or to the Government, I would not pay very much attention. But, I think, the bon. gentleman knows better than that. Mr. Chaiman, I was not in the Government at the time the technici.at_t, to which the bon. gentleman refers , was appointed.

It is my understanding and has been and is. that gentleman was appointed for the reuon that the bon. gentleman has mentioned, namely, that there was some lack of confidence, and essentially was appointed, I think, pending some documented reliable evidence as to the situation in the St. Lawrence Mine. Row. I submit to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that we now have that reliable evidence. The bon. gentleman read a portion of the Royal Commission R.eport with particular rec011111endationSfound on, I think, page 63. And he read only one paragraph of that conclusion and recommendation, Mr. Chairman.

ADd 1 sgggest the committee should be apprized of the context in which that paragraph ia found. It begins at the bottom of page 62. I bear in mind, Mr. Chairman, that the technician 1 to vha..- reference has been made, vas .ppointed, I think, about two and a-half years ago. I do not have the exact date. The Royal Commission makes reference on page 62, to records going back to 1961, which is some ten years ago.

And this is what the Co11111ission sqli: " Since monitoring began on a routine basis in 1961. the readings taken by the mining company have always been in generous compliance with the mining regulations, and the requirements of the Chief Inspector of Mines, and cross cbeeld.ng by Government Inspectors has been heavy. Even so, to remove all doubts, that radiaaion levels in the mines had been reduced below permissible limits, and kept below those limits every day, the Government in 1967 appointed ~ full-time monitoring technician to the mines. Now bear in mind, Mr.

Chairman, that it was to remove all dou1,ts. that radiation levels had in fact been brought dawn, and that in fact the company'• inspection system, which vas monitored :Ln turn and cross checkl!d by the Government, by the 5723

Mit. CALLAHAN: Governmant officials to prove two thing• • that the company had brought the level down and that they were providing reliable inapection of it. 1r:he Government appointed thia man. Weekly reporti of thia full· time technician showed that the Government's purpose in thia respect had been achieved. The C011111iasion goes on, by compare ion therefore, it can be seen that monitoring practice in the St. Lawrence Mines.Cthese are the Commissions words, Mr.

Chairman) is at least siKteen times the required frequency in Ontario, at least twelve times the desired frequency in Rev Mezieo, and forty-eight times the required frequency in Colorado• All this means that there is less chance for a miner to be exposed to dangerous levels of radiation,in the mines of St. Lawrence, than in the mines of Ontario, or in New Mexico or Colorado. In the Congressional Report referred to earlier in this Chapter, B.R.

Butt, Presiden~Mining and Metals Division~ Union Carbide Corporation asks and answers the important question, '"how often should we be monitore/1 Actually, you might say, that the only way, under present conditions, you could do it, would be to have one man followinp: each miner,continuously monitoring that particular area. Then the report aoea on, and all this, Mr.

Chairaan, the bon. gentleman, I do not know why refused or at least neglected to relate to the Committee, but it is all certainly pertinent conclusions and recolllllle1\dations, number one that the average concentration of alpha radiation in the~~ines of St.

Lawrence as deter.!ned by each of the two monitoring technicians, company and Government, {because the company i8 doing it now, Sir, and have been doing it for years) the average concentration as determined by each of the two monitoring technicians for the period January to June inclusive 1968, is 0.325 working level, this average was determined from 2,913 readings. (2) that the prevailing concentration will produce an annual exposure to woR.ea as 3. 90 working level months, if they are employed fo~ and a-half weeb each month of_five eight hour dayli-·eac:h week. And this is the key, Mr.

Chairman, to the situation. (3)(This is the Royal Commission, to which the bon. gentlnsan refers} This ia a better vorkin·g c:ondition than prevails 572~\

MR. CALLAHAN: anywhere abe in the world, where alpha radiation exists in .tnes. Nov I will repeat it, Mr. Chairman, so that everybody including the press will get it. This ia a better working condition in the St. Lawrence Mines than prevails anywhere else in the world where alpha radiation exists in mines. And :then it goes on, nevertheless, beginning on 1 January 1969 aine operators are required by law, 'llline operators are required by law to protect any workman, in any mine, in Newfoundland from alpha radiation exposure in eKceas of 3.6 working level months. Now, Mr.

Chairman, that is the conte:rt in which the bon. gentleman's remarks must be put. And the principle conelusion to be noted is the Royal Commission conelusion after very intensive work-study that a better working condition prevails in the St. Lawrence Mines, which we have just been told had been neglected, where responsibility has been abdicated, a better working condition prevails there thaD in any mine in the world where there is alpha radiation. Now, let me add something else, Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman referred not only to St.

Lawrence, although~ it would be hard to find the other references in his remarks, but he went on to aay that, there had been an unusual ap~lling complete abdication of responsibility by me and by the Government, not only in respect of St. Lawrence, but to mines anywhere in Newfoundland and Labrador. for that .. tter, he added. I wrote it dovn, Mr. Chairman, as he spoke. He said, St. Lawrence or anywhere else in Newfoundland and Labrador for that matter. Nov, Mr. Chairman, there is a standard approach anywhere in the .tning iadustry, anywhere where there is a civilized society in which the .tning industry exists.

And the approach is ·not, that Government go into mining operations and establish their armies of mining inspectors and safety inspectors, and safety divisions, and safety supervisors, the approach is that governments lay down standards- and provide supervision under relative laws and regulations, of the safety inspection responsibilities, or the carrying out of the safety and inspection responsibilities of the opera ton. Because, Mr. Chairman, it is the responsibility 1 as mine operators 5725

MR. CALLAHAN: in Newfoundland are required by law to d~ to protect any vorkmen,in any mine, whether it be in respect of alpha radiation, which is the particular and essential problem in St. Lawrence or any other province. It is the responsibility of the company to protect its workers. And it is the responsibility, Mr. Chairman, to see that the company protects its workers.

So that the Government must set the standards of working conditions for the safety of workmen in any mine in the province, and having set those standards and laid them down in law, has then the responsibility to see that companies carry them out at their cost. So it is the responsibility o~ the operator to maintain the standards, the responsibility of mine inspectors of the Government to see that operators maintain the safety standards. And I would say, Mr.

Chairman, that if the Government cannot trust the operator~. which is what the bon. gentleman suggests, he is telling the committee, that the operators of the mine at St. Lawrence cannot be trusted. If we cannot depend upon them to do the inspection and the monitoring, therefore we have to move in on them and do it for them, and do it in their place. Well, I do not accept that, Mr. Chairman, and the Royal Commission and have gone back to 196l~do not accept it, and have proved that that argument is not accepted, ~ut was done,in the case of St.

Lawrence, was done for the reason I mentioned in the beginning, the technician appointed by the Government was appointed for the particular purpose, in a particular case of ensuring workers in that mine and people in that community, assuring them or reassuring them that in fact the radiatten~level had been reduced and that in fact the monitoring and inspection done by the company's own technician was reliable and could be taken as a true indication of the condition in the mine. Row, Mr.

Chairman, if it were the~case that only during the tenure of the Government's technician the company's reports and inspection reports were found reliable, then I would say we could put some credence, the committe could put some credence in the bon. gentleman's remarks. But, in view ot the fact, that the Royal Commisslon went back to 1961, some •even or eight years prior to the appointment of a Government technician, 572G

""unt: Lno • .a.::r,v MR. CALLAHAN: and cheeked out and croes checked and subjected to every possible test, the findings of the company inspectors, and found that these inspections not only were reliable, but that the levels~as established 1 of radiation were far, far below what is established as acceptable.

This to me indicates that 1 1n the years prior to the appointment of the Government technician, the company had been discharging their responsibility and that in itself is evidence that the company will do so and that it is safe, and it is proper and it is appropriate to regularize the situation by putting the total responsibility for day-to-day monitoring and inspection on the company and creating the proper situation which is that the Government inspectors then see to it that the company and the company's inspectors do the job that they are required to do by law. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there has been no unusual or apalling or· complete or any other kind of abdication of responsibility in this matter. What was done, was done for a temporary purpose, nam~lY) to reassure the people and the miners as to the safety, the levels, the maintenance of the safe levels in the mines, and as to the quality of the inspect~on procedures that were being carried out. And we think now that the company should not only, Mr.

Chairman, carry on the responsibili~ it had prior, but double it~like taking on a second technician, so that there will be a more adequate inspection than before always working towards the system of personal IIIODitorlng, which we feel and which industry standards indicate to us, · is . the only real solution to proper monitoring in this situation. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to reply to the comments of the bon. the minister, The bon. minister's comments confirmed to me what I have always known, that he does not appreciation the problem that exists in St. Lawrence. MR.

CALLAHAN: I appreciate it very much. MR. HICKMAN: Has no comprehension of the problem that exist in St. Lawrence and in t·~e mines, or the people who work in these mines. 5727

MR.. CALLAHAN: The bon. gentleman is cauaing that very problem right nov. MR. RICDfAN: Mr. Chairman, the reason why it is my responsibility to raise this, and I will continue to raise it until these recommendations are implemented, is because there was twenty years of neglect and complete misunderstanding of the problema that existed in St. LaWTence and that misunderstanding and neglect is continping right to this present moment. And if we needed any confirmation of the fact, all we hade to do is listen to the speech and the comments of the bon. the minister during the passed five minutes.

He reads, recommendation thirteen, and recommendation thirteen says and concludes, "that a better condition than is knowa to prevail anywhere else in the world where alpha radiation eJtists in the mines". But, this is all factual everybody knows that, every miner in St. Lawrence is fully aware of that, the company is aware of that, the inspector of mines is aware of it, we all know that. We have known that for quite sometime. But, that Mr.

Chairman, is not what prompted the Royal Commission to make recommendation number fourteen, what prompted the Royal Commission to make recommendation number fourteen is this, that after twenty years of exposure , after ~hirty years of neglect, and after adamant refusal to face up to the problems in St. Lawrence, the miners of St. Lawrence, the residents of St. Lawrence naturally have become very apprehensive over working conditions in the mines. This is quite understandable, it has got nothing to do at all with the present radiation count in the mines at St. Lawrence.

But what it has to do with it, is this, that the people in St. Lawrence want to know beyond any reasonable doubt. that the health of their miners is to be protected, and not just by the company. It is silly to say, that we do not trust the company to do inspections. That is nonseaaical, that is ~ot . dealing with the problem at all. The compan~ can have twenty monitoring technicians, if it so desires, and I have no doubt that if they have the~ they will do their work properly. But that will not eliminate the suspicion and the concern and the fear of the people 572B

. -· MR. HICKMAN: of St. Lawrence. that their rights are not being fully protected unless there is a continuation of this completely independent monitoring in the mines at St. Lawrence. And thb is why the Commisdon having found that the radiation count in St. Lawrence, which it isj is considerably below the level that you would find in similar mines throughout the world, "'then went on,(and this is a significant one) and made recommendation number fourteen, that until continuous personal monitoring is developed,two full-time radiation monitoring technicians should be employed in the mines at St.

Lawrence, not because one technician cannot give a technically satisfactory picture of radiation conditions there at all times but because workmen at St. Lawrence are morally entitled to have every working place in the mines monitored once in every twenty-four hours and the result posted daily. This is why f say that the feeling that is envisaged and contained in.running right through the Report of the Royal Commission on Radiation In the Mines at St. Lawre~ce~is not being appreciated by the hon. the minister. He is taking the factual findings and excluding every- thing else.

He is excluding the whole background of the development of the mining industry in St. Lawrence. He is excluding what has happened to so many miners in that area during the put forty years. This is not to be_taken into consideration at all, it is less simplyJlook at the facts as they exist today. But you cannot look at these facts, as they exist today,to the exclusion of the feelings and the fears that have continued in St. Lawrence for now over a generation.

And the appointment of this gentleman as a monitoring technician was in my opinion the first step toward allaying these fears, it would appear ma~be the bon. minister is not .ware of this, that I am not alone in feeling that he has abdicated his responsibility in not appointing the second monitoring technician and in suggesting that this should be handed over to the company. MR. CALLAHAN: There are two there now. MR. HICKMAN: Because last week, Mr. Chairman, both the Mayor of St. Lawrence, 5729 I ; .

MR. HICKMAN: Mayor Fabian Alyward. strongly condemned the Government over there publicly, last Friday 1 over Government's refusals to implement many recommendation• and they emphaized in particular recomm~dation fourteen. And Mr. Leo Slaney, the President of the St. Lawrence Workers Proctective Union in a similar public release that emanated from his office, and from Mr. Slaney, and it was recorded and carried over the ,·Provincial Radio Network, said precisely the same thing.

It is not a question as to whether you have one monitoring teebician, two monitoring technicians, or twenty, the simple fact is, that these men have to be completely free and independent. It is not a question of whether the company is capable of accurately monitoring the raditation count, or enforcing any other safety regulations in the mines. Any responsible mining company is going to do that, of course they. ~ Will and so 5730

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1075 Page 1 Mr. Hickman. Newfoundland Fluorspar did a first class job over the last twenty years, but what the minister cannot get into his head and what Government have never been able to understand, and I know that the bon. the member for Fogo concurs with what I say in this. I know the bon. the senior member for Hr. Main, lf he were here, because he has even stronger views on it than I have ever had.

What they have never been able to get into their minds is the fact that the concern and the apprehension that is built up over years and years and years of absolute neglect and a complete misunderstanding or lack of understanding of this problem and this is why .this Royal Commission made recommendation No. 14- not. because they were not satisfied with the work that was being done by the company - not because they were not satisfied as to the safety of the mine, but they wanted this to continue into the foreseeable future, this monitoring and an increase in it so that these miners and their families would have peace of mind and this concept is the one that completely misses the mind of the Hinister of Mines and today he has confirmed it.

MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, just one or two general comments under this heading, concerning the very large grants of mineral concessions throughout the Province.

I feel that I agree with the previous speakemand most certainly this should be looked at and a more proper approach, if that is the right word, be taken to the overall granting'of concessions, but one of my worries is that concessions, as such, seem to get into the hands of very large promoters of own the energetic promoter type who in their enthusiasm for their~project, probably, are apt not to be as discreet as they might be in the mining and exploration field.

Most certainly in mining and in looking for oils, it is a very sensitive sort of thing and the promoters themselves and the people they influence are very, very apt to react quickly to any announcements of any sort. It is typical of the mining industry that everything goes·completely haywire when aomeboy thinks he has struck a bonanza. Now we all recall a few years ago, where there was a great ~•afari down to the Parsons Pond oil 57 0.• .:il. I.

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1075 Page 2 Mr. Earle. well where all the members of Cabin~t went down there in the middle of the winter to have a look at what was supposed to be an oil discovery. We were all taken in by helicopter, and we saw what looked like a very shaky,old rig in there with an old man and a couple of others running it, and there did not appear to be any more oil in that particular area than enough to grease the machinery that was running it.

But in spite of all that, there was a big announcement and everybody got excited about.it, and I have no doubt that this had a great .~feet on the shares of the company that was promoting this thing at the a time. I think it isAmost unethical approach for the promoters themselves to encourage that thing and it is even more ghastly for a government to take

part in such a thing. In my own area of Fortune Bay, there has been or supposed to be a mineral discovery there for thirty years in the Roncontre East area, 1110lybdenite. Now1 that has been explored and looked at and gone over time and again over the past thirty yeara and the unfortunate result is that the people in that area are remaining there in very isolated conditions?based on the hope that something will develop.

They have been waiting year after year after year in this particular area - a little exploration party goes in, something atirs up. and the people are encouraged again and they get all sorts of rumora going. and they just stay there and hope that something will develop. Now, a couple of_.7ears ago, there was a Government announcement; OD this particular area, when it was said that very exciting mineral discoveries bad been located there. Of course, the people in that area got tremendously excited and enthusiastic about the whole thing. At that particular time, Hr. John c.

Doyle was in this Chamber, and I went outside and spoke to him and I said, "Hr. Doyle is there anything in this or is it just so much malarky7'' He s•id, ''Mr. Earle, there will be a town in Roncontre East, bigger than 5732 ·l

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1075 Page 3 Corner Brook." This was two or thlee years ago and this has all been built up into a big thing, the people were very enthusiastic. Now nothing has happened since. There have been small exploratory parties~in there and nothing has happened. But Government,as such,and certainly the promoters ~ - should be discouraged .. from giving out information of this type where it has a detrimental affect upon the livlihood and the conditions under which the people live, because if there is nothing there. the people should be told so. If there are minerals in the area all for the good.

They may be developed sometime. But most certainly a Department of Mines, Agricultu~eand Resources should, itself, e~ert some influence over the sort of propaganda and the sort of things that are let out on exploration things. TheY~ may not be able to control the promoters themselves, because they may be doing it in their own interest, but they certainly should keep the brakes on with their own Government. This sort of thing should not be built up out of all proportions with the idea of creating excitement and enthusiasm for something which nobody knows at that stage, whether it really exists or not.

In the final analysis, when it affects the livlihood and the ambition and the interests of the people in any particular area and · on literally these are moulding/the rocks in the vain hopej I think it is a ghastly thing to do. MR.. CALLAJL\N: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add one word to what I said earlier about the situation with the St. Lawrence Mine. I refer again to paragraph (4) of the Royal Commission recommendation. The recommendation is that until. continuous personal monitoring is developed 1 two full-time radiation monitoring technicians should be employed.

Now I point out again, Sir, because it seems to have gotten lost that there are two full-time technicians there now. One of them employed by 573:1

June 2nd. , 1970 t1r. - ~~~l_ahl!9. Tape no 1075 Page 4 the company as has been their practice and one of them employed, especially, by the Government for the purposes that have been described. What is proposed now, Sir, very simply, is that the Company double its monitoring and protection force and that in addition to that, cross checking and double checking of reports, double checking of the monitoring that will be done by the technicians. This being done1 this cross checking and double checking by Government mining inspectors will continue, obviously.

But what the commission says, Sir, is that - I interpret to mean in the regular way; they do not say that the full-time technician employed by the Government be continued. I understand them to mean, because it is reasonable and it is standard practice in the industry that the company double 'its monitoring force which~ as I have sai~would still be supervised and double checked and cross checked by Government inspectors. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, I am still waiting for the minister to answer the question raised earlier by the bon. member for St. John's West. Has NALCO and Mr.

Doyle .~ s other corporations and all other companies receiving exploration rights to certain areas in the Province, have they lived up to all their obligationg under the Statutes or have they not, and if they have not to what extent have they not lived up to their obligations and in particular . have NALOO lived up to its obligations in the Bonae Bay Park area? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, that is a pretty broad question, and we could be here for a month, as I have said before in respect of NALCO, there are some twelve, I think, eleven or twelve pieces of legislation, and there aEe more than fifty agreements and the agreements bind the company in every way shape and form even to complying with other pieces, other Acts and other regulations in force in the Province, right down,as I think I have said before, to have licence plates on their vehicles. Now, Mr. Chairman, what I can tell the House is what I have told the House before.

Mainly, that I am not aware that in any substantial fashion, any company that has a concession agreement in this Province, has violated this agreement. So far as NALCO is concerned, I can say the sa1'!) ~ing. I can

Tape no 1075 June 2., 1970 Page 5 Mr. Callahan. say two other things about NALCO. The question that the bon. the member for St. John's West asked nn April 13th, asked whether NALCO had performed and complied in a particular respect at that time and the question could not be answered in those terms, Hr. Chairman, as the bon. gentleman knew. He obviously knew what the legislation said. The legislation requires a ~any to file its expenditures in audited statements by 1 June.

Now yesterday was 1 June and the company have done this, and I am not awar* of any substantive respect in which that company or any other company, under concession agreement in this Province, have violated their agreement. MR.. WELLS: Would the minister tell the llouse, whether or not NALCO have spent all of the funds that they are required to spend in their concession area? Whether or not, they have, as required under the legislation? MR.. CALLAHAN: They have spent, at least, fifty per cent more. MR.. CHAIRMAN: Motion is that 801-01: Salaries be reduced from $16,700 to $1.

Those in favour please say "ave." Contrary "nay." I take it the 110tion is lost. 801-02-01 _MR.. WELLS: I noticed recently that the minister in travelling has, on occasion, I believe, used the Government plane. Should this not cut down rather than increase, if this is proposed to continue rather than increase the t~avelling allowance? Is the minister going to answer? MR.. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, I do not know what the answer to a question like that is. The aircraft is there.

It flies on some kind of semi-schedule basis and when it is convenient to use that aircraft, they use it, and this does not, in turn, expense, presumably unrier this-head. But the aircraft goes 573~)

SVHE 2nd., 1970 Tape no. 1075 Page 6 Mr. Callahan. all over this Province, and there are times, when it is convenient to use that aircraft. I do not kno~ how material it is •• _MR. WELLS: Why does the minister foresee double in the travelling allowance? Is there any particular ~eason? HR. ROBERTS: Every minister - you will find one in each department, 01-02-01 vote. This is where ministers travel on Air Canada, EPA ••• MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the minister was responsible, I believe, for Government aircraft up to sometime •• MR. CALLAHAN: 1 April. MR.

CROSBIE: I know1 not anymore, but last year the minister was responsible up to several months ago. MR. CALLAHAN: Up to the end of the last fiscal year. MR. CROSBIE: There hRve been quite a few questions asked to table in the Bouse about the operation of Government aircraft and about the operation of the Twin Otter, the executive aircraft that the Government operates - none of which have been answered to date. Now can the minister tell us why they are not answered.

Were the records in his department in connection with these aircrafts in such bad shape that these questions cannot be answeredZ Some of them have been tabled here since early in March. Why cannot this information be given? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, I have answered that question and numbers of questions similar to it over and over again.

For a period of months, we have been phasing the aircraft operation into the Department of Supply and Services, and I have told the House time and time again that such questions should be referred to my colleague the Minister of Supply and Services 'who officially from the first of April, this present fiscal year and unofficially 1over a period of time phasing in1 is responsible for aircraft. 57JG

·rape no 1075 Page 7 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I move that this vote be reduced from $2,000 to $1. As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence that the minister is administering his department in any satisfactory way and that, therefore, his travelling is not resulting in any benefit at all to the Government. The minister, week after week in this House, refuses to give information, obscures the issue. He is administering the Go~crnment's aineral policy laxly. Whatever policy there is, it is certainly not being en­ forced nor adhered to very strictly by the Minister.

He has registries in hls:department or parts of registries which should be opened to the public, which were those mentioned here last night; the timber grants, forestry grants and others including this famous mineral one. So, for all of these reasons, I move that this vote be cut from $2,000 to $1. MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is that 801-02-01 be reduced from $2,000 to $1. Those in favour "aye." Contrary "nay." Motion is lost. Shall 01 carry? Carried. Shall 02 carry? Carried. 802-01, 02-01, 02, 03, 08, 09-01,02,06 carried. 811-01: MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, on this item - wildlife salaries for wildlife officers - $239,300.

Would the minister tell the House - it is almost useless to ask the question, but . would the minister tell the House how many wildlife officers there are and of those wildlife officers, how many are qualified in the sense that they are graduates in some particular course in wildlife and would he outline for the House what the position is with reference to the FUr Dappers' Guide that was prepared in his department last year and issued, I understand, without the minister's picture in the front of it and then it was ordered to be taken back - the publication ha~ to cease.

Distribution of this Fur Trappers' Guide had to cease and then the minister, once again, permitted it to be issued a few weeks later after this terrible grevious error had been corrected so that his name was mentioned at the forefron~ and his picture iaserted. That is the story anyway that went around. Perhaps the minister 5737

June lat., 1990, Page 8 Tape no. 1075. Mr. Crosbie. .., could te~l us whether it is the correct story or not~ But apparently this Fur Trappers' Guide is a very ancient document. It describes how you should trap animals and how you treat the fur after they are trapped. It is very tl* helpful for anyone interested in fur trapping_, whom there are many in this Province. I believe the Minister of Welfare is one of them. But this document was issued and there was quite a Kuffhuffle there a few months ago. It was stated that it was not authorized, that the minister· had not authorized the publication of this document.

Apparently,, some official in his department just went ahead and printed the Fur Trappers~ Guide and issued it to the public without the minister's consent, certainly, without his picture which was a bad oversight. That would not happen in the Minister of Welfare's department. We have seen the "News in View," the minister's picture is on every page and so it should be. So, there are two questions there. One is on the Fur Trappers' Guide and is it still now available from the ~epartment and what the story was on it and the other is, how many wildlife officers there are qualified •• ? Mr.

Chairman, I would think that the minister is ei~her going to answer the question •• MR. CALLAHAN: The minister will answer the question. when the minister 'has the information. MR. CROSBIE: Exactly, well then the Chairman should wait before he passes the item. _MR. CALLAHAN: Sit down and wait for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Carried. MR. CROSBIE: It is not carried, Mr. Chairman. We are waiting for the minister to answer the questions, and he is looking up the information. It is not 5738

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1075 Page 9 Mr. Crosbie. carried. . MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, we are trying to add up some posts here • I do not know what the bon. gentleman really wants to know. I do not know, if be wants to know bow many professionals we have in the Wildlife Division or if he wants to know how many Wildlife Officers. Wildlife Officers are not necessarily professionals. So, that is why we have to split it up and try to answer his question differently from the manner in which it was prepared. Mr.

Chairman, this is a bit complicated, because some of the wildlife people who actually ·work in the Forestry Inventory Project, which is a wide-ranging multi-disciplinary project that involves not only what the name might indicate, forestry, but also other resources. There are seven in wilalife,as such,and three, I think the figure is/in the Capability Project in respect of wildlife. Some of the posts, Hr.

Cl)airman: there is a director and chief biologist, a small game biologist, a fur bearer biologist, extension biologist, laboratory technician and there are three of those for regional - there are three regional field technicians and regional enforcement supervisors , and we have seasonal assistance - twenty-ieven seasonal officers for periods varying from four to twelve months. Also a number of clerks and field technicians and permanent enfor.cement officers who, of course, supervise the temporary ones. So far as the publication of documents i~ concerned, Mr.

Chairman, .l think it is obvious to the HousP. that no document should be published purporting to be a document of the Government unless it has some kind of proOf prior to its publication. This is a case where the document did not have the proof, as I said at the time, b~ the minister or the deputy minister Qr I think the director of the particular division. The publication was stopped, purely, internally, Mr. Chairman. There were no public statements. 5739

June 2nd •• 1970 Tape no. 1075 Page 10 Hr. Callahan .• Th,. publication was stopped until the document couid be checked by ~~etent officials. not by me. by competent officials in the department, and when ·that was done. it was allowed agam to continue distribution. not MR. WELLS: Were~the officials who had done,•~ 5740

MR. WELLS: it was dona previouslyJ eompetent) MR. CALLAP.AN: Mr. Chairman, it was prepared. by an offieial or officials of the department without the knowledge of the senior officers of the department. And, I think. bon. gentlemen. even bon. gentlemen opposite will agree that no document should be published in the name of the Government,unless the Government have approved its publication, and I mean the Government. I do not mean officials in any department of Government. Mr.

Chairman, for that reason it was held up until the senior officials of the department could ckeck its contents. ~s it turn out it was all right, because mainly it was a compendium of what had been published in other documents elsewhere. But. nonetheless it had the name of this Government on it and should not have been allowed to go to publication without proper authorization. Mr. Chairman, the minister considered that, the minister considered a number of factors, one of them being that a young man responsible was rather new to this Province.

I think, new to this country. he I think/did not have an appreciation, as citizens of this Province and this country might have, of the seriousness of the matter. But, in addition to that, I did bring the matter to the Government, Mr. Chairman, and I have to say that I. even with the factors that I mentioned , was not very happy about this whole situation. The Government's decision was in the circumstances that no action should be taken.

But, 1 say again, Sir, that it is not proper and it is not right for any publication to be issued under the name of the Government without the per se authorization of the Government. This was the situation in this case. Nobody knows what is between the covers of a book or a document, until it is checked. And the proper place for that to be checked is at a high level, in any department of the Government, before the publication takes place. did MR. WELLS: As a matter of interest,/the final wording of the publication that went out have the minister's picture on it'Z MR. CALI.AHAN: 1 do not really know.

I know it had no picture, I do not know if it had any -

June 2nd. 1970 PK - 2 MR. ln:LLS: I am just curious. MR. RICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I do not think the minister's picture has anything to do with wildlife. What I would like to bring to the attention of the minister is the practice that is followed in other provinces of making a detailed assessment of the·value of wildlife to the economy of the Province. I believe, MR. CALLAHAN: That is nothing new. MR. RICKMAN: that in most provinces where you have this detailed assessment, and we obviously do not have it here. There was a resolution passed quite recently by the Wildlife Association, or whatever the name is - MR.

WELLS~ _The Rod and Gun Club. MR. RICKMAN: The Rod and Gun Club calling for this type of assessment, a valuation, I think. it has been placed on large animals or big animals,that is the technical phrase, worth approximately $1,000 each to the area in which they are found.

And in some provinces now haveJas a matter of policy,undertaken a very careful assessment of the wildlife of their area, made a knowledgeable assessment as to what the wildlife is worth to the province, and taken monies that are collected by way of licensing or,however, the method!! of collecting, relating same to the valuation or the assessment of the wildlife, and have used this money, i~tead of allowing it to go into the general funds, the general cost of operating the department, have earmarked such monies to be used for conservation of wildlife in that particular province. And.

I am sure that the Minister will agree, that this Province, with the improvement in communications and transportation outside of Newfoundland, and as a result of some very good advertising done by the Tourist Department, that each year we can anticipate more and more hunters coming into the Province, apart altogether from the licensei hunters, as we open up more and more of the Province, we are making these areas which are 5742

June 2nd. 1970 Tape 107, PK - 3 Mil. HICKMAN: game sanctuaries, easily accessible to poacberii'.IOr anyone else who wants to go in and have a crack at them. The time bas now arrived, in fact it may have passed, when there ahould be very substantial improvements and increases in the amount of money to be spent on conservation of wildlife in this Province. Because, if we do not do something soon, we are going to see a disappearance of some of the species that have been a source of attraction and constitute a part of the wildlife of Newfoundland. MR. CALLAHAN: Which ones, can the bon. gentleman specify those. MR.

HICKMAN: In particular the grouse, and the partridge, the hare, not the arc:tic bare, AN BON. MEMBER: The snowshoe hare. MR. HICKMAN: The shoeshoe hare. I know along certain parts of the south c:oast these species, for all intense and purpose, at least if you can rely on the returns of the hunters, to all intense and purpose, to spare them. The cycle seems to be far more, MR. CALLAHAN: We just had the best partridge cycle in about twenty-five years. MR. HICKMAN: spread out than they were in the passed. MR. CALLAHAN: .Absolute over abundance. HR.

RICKMAN: Do I understand from the bon. minister that he does not agree that there should be an increase in the conservation policies, or ~, establishment of conservation policies for wildlife in this Province? Do I understand this is your positiOn right now? MR. CALLAHAN: I do not take the bon. gentleman's position as being the only one. MR. RICKMAN: I know it is not the only one. But you know anyone with half a brain · at all, or a quarter of a brain knows, MR. WELLS: We will reduce it down a bit more, to get the minister's. Mil. HICKMAN_!_ Well, if he had a brain the size of a pea, Mr. Chairman, 5743

MR. HICKMAN: surely you have to realize that now that the conservation policies 'lillY have been good in days of Commission of Government, when very little of Newfoundland was accessible to hunters, is no longer sound in this Province today. I have beard the bon. the member for Labrador West talk about the disappearance of the mealy mountain herd. MR. CALLAHAN: A real expert on Newfoundland. MR. HICKMAN: Whether he is an expert on Newfoundland. 1 do not know. but he certainly seems to articulate the problems and the feelings of Labrador.

And I do not~know what the biological reason, if there is a biological reason for the disappearance of the mealy mountain herd. But the published reports indicate that it was wholesale slaughter in that area. And surely if there haJ been some conservation and regulations and enforcement of regulations and measures in that area, we would not be facing that situation t;oday. And so it happens. that the other nine provinces and the various states of the union are concentrating more and more on conservation. MR. CALLAHAN: What do you mean .by conservation now? MR.

HICKMAN: And the minister sits here in his seat, and says what we are doing is enou~h or alternately we should not have the conservation, you know. MR. CALLAHAN~ Which minister said that? MR. HICKMAN: You. MR. CALLAHAN: When? MR. MR. HICICMAN: CALLAHAN: Now, it was in the passed two or three minutes. I said nothing of the kind. MR. MR. HICIQofAN: CALLAHAN: Well, can I assume then that the bon. minister - I said that the bon. gentleman - MR. HICKMAN: Can I assume, Mr.

Chairman, that the bon. minister agrees that there has to be a substantial and massive increase in the monies to be spent on cont~eniationt And do I understand, that it is his belief that there should 57•14

"' . June 2nd. 1970 Tape 107~ PK - 5 MR. HICKMAN: be a very intensive assessment of the wildlife of this Province? And if he accepts theae two principles, then I would aaau.e that ha ia the only one who can do it, or arrange it, that be will aak for an increase, a substantial increase in the vote. In other words, put your money·, where your mouth is. MR.CALLAHAN: It is all being done. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to support what the bon. the member for Burin has just being saying.

We all know that, if the bon. minister is not devoted to conservation, he is devoted to obstruction and obscurism, when the bon. member was just speaking. 1 think~ that the bon. the member for Burin has put his finger on the serious problem, Mr. Chairman, in the wildlife in this Province, and that is with the advent of the skidoo, and the amphitract and all these other vehicles that can now be used in the wintertime, that we are going to be in danger with the airplane too, but I think this is even a greater one. We are going to be in danger in the next four or five years of there being not a game animal left. MR.

CALLAHAN: How do you save that by conservation? MR. CROSBIE: I have not told the minister yet how to solve it. I am coming to that, if the minister will restrain his patience - MR. CALLAHAN: You cannot stop us by doing it by enforcement, how else would you propose to doing it? MR. CROSBIE: 'The bon. minister will never learn, Mr. Chairman, he brought a Bill before this House, an absolute police•state bill, and he has not learned his lesson yet, he is even proposing, I suppose, to reintroduce - MR. CALLAHAN: 'That is the bon. gentleman's belief. MR. CROSBIE: And the problem is, Mr.

Chairman, one thing 1 am not going to do today and that is, I am not going to lose my cool. I am not going to lose my cool today. MR. CALLAHAN: 'The bon. member have not even got a cool. MR. CROSBIE: Even with the bon. minister l will keep my temper cool. So, Mr. Chairman, I will proceed quietly, imparti9ally to make the point. With the skidoo end the amphitract and all these other machines going right in 5745

MR. CROSBIE: through the countryside, you can go anywhere in Newfoundland in the vintertimeleaaily on those machines, and chase animals and taking animals very easily, there is not going to be an animal left. Now the an.wer is not to give the minister the ~stapo powers or police-state powers, so that on any kind of suspicion at all, he can seize their crafts and machines and the rest of it. MR. CALLAHAN: Right. MR.

CROSBIE: The answer would have to be some system of licensing these machines and controlling how they can go in the country, and even determine that there are certain areas they are not allowed to go in. There should are be preserved certain areas where no tract vehiclesfallowed in, except one that is owned by the Government, or with some wildlife officer, that is one way of doing it.

But, in the wintertime from January lat. to April 1st., in certain large areas of this Province, you will not be allowed to go on a tract vehicle, and the way to enfore it, is to use the Government aircraft because they can see the tracts from the sky easily, and this should be enforced by the use of Government aircraft. Now that is certainly one way. And, I think, that is what the Government is going to have to do. Large aections of the interior of the Province are just going to have to be put off limit, unless you got a permit from the department to go in there, during certain months of the year.

Now, what does the minister think of that suggestion, that is a nice sensible suggestion, is it not? MR. CALLAHAN: That is very reasonable thinking. MR. CROSBIE: That is better thin~ing, ~r. Chairman, than the hon. minister coming in with that atrocity of an amendment to the Wilflife Act, that he came in with here a few weeks ago. MR. RICKMAN: Does the bon. member for St. John's West feel that wildlife officers should attend Liberal Nomination Conventions? MR.. CALLAHAN: Of course, they should • 5746 .. · il 1 I !

MR. CROSBIE: Wildlife officers, I think they should. There is some control needed, some of the life of nominati~g gets too wild for the bon. sntlnan. 1 Man democracy rears ita u1ly haad. Now there h one ROOd aug~eation for tha bon. the minister, forRat tha Gestapo, just put certain areas of the Province off limits 1during the winterJto tract vehicles. The bon. the Minister for Social Services and Rehabilitation, Mr. Chairman, has again attempted to smeer the bon. the member for Labrador West who is not in the Bouse, by stating that he is not a born Newfoundlander. MR. NEARY: I will prove it. MR.

CROSBIE: The bon. minister said it again, a few minutes ago. That there is something wrong with the bon. member for Labrador West, because he was not born in Newfoundland, a comtemptible statement. Absolutely eoatemptible. The bon. the member for Labrador West,it does not matter where he was bom, if he lives here in Newfoundland now, he has just as ~c:h rights as any of the rest of us. Just as much right to be here as Doctor Valdmanis had, or anyone else who has come here. MR. NEARY: Well, he is not an authority on wildlife. MR.

CROSBIE: He is an authority in Newfoundland and Labrador, he has lived in Labrador for the passed eight or ten years, more of an authority than the hon. gentleman. More experienced on Labrador than the bon. the member for Labrador South, or not the hon. the member for Labrador North, who has got a considerable experience here. So slurs about the bon. the .ember for Labrador West, because he was not bom in Newfoundland, it is disquiting, Mr. Chairman, that such a cheap tactic can be used. MR. NEARY: What has this got to do with wildlife? MR. CROSBIE: The hen. gentleman's wildlife that is what this has to do with.

The bon. the member for Labrador West was acceptable to the Liberal Party as a candidate since 1966, and the hon. the Premier practically went on his knees to get him to run. MR. NEARY: He got him his passport. MR. CROSBIE: Right. And there was no talk then about your not bom in Newfoundland. No, it was wip. a passport to Ottawa, so you are eligible 57-17

how MR. CROSBIE:. to run in the election. That wasAit was in 1966. Now, to come back to the other ~ind of wildlife, Mr. Chairman, ve should have a cage with several of the bon. gentlemen opposite. MR, BARBOUR: Including me'l MR. CROSBIE: No, not the hon. the member, everybody in this House admires ; . the bon. gentleman there. We all feel on this side, he should, and must ! be a member of the Cabinet before this session of the House ends. MR.. HICKMAN: Minister of Wildlife, MR. CROSBIE: I think, Wildlife would be a good department for him. So, anyway, Mr.

Chairman, I think the hon. member for Burin has made a good point there, we hope that the minister with his usual frankness and straight forwardness, sincerity of purpose will comment on these suggestions that we made. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, perhaps.we should rise from the session now, I might say moat of the Cabinet have been invited to a 16nchean today given by the Economic Council of Canada, and I think it is felt that we stould go, so if the House would be agreeable, the committee might rise now.until three. But, .. perhaps the committee will rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. MR.

WELLS: Even in cases, we admit the Cabinet must have their lunch. Nobody would disagree with that. Think MR. HICKMAN: /What is going to happen this afternoon, when they will come back full of beer? MIT-GH.titifl\1!1':. (Hodder) The motion is that I do aow;..--leave the Chair, until 3 P.M.

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 91 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, .JUNE 2, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

The Committee resumed at 3:00 P.M. On Motion, that the Committee rise, report p~ogress and ask leave to sit again presently. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with the next Order, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we have1 in the Speaker's gallery today, three distinguished visitors, two of whom are legislators from ~ - the State of Massachusetts, accompanied by Mr. Straus, the Consul General of the United States, who is well known to all of you. Mr. Chmura and Mr. McLean, two of these legislators are paying a visit to St. John's.

And I know you would like me 1on behalf of all of you, to extend to them a very cordial welcome to view the other legislators here and see how they conduct their business. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Shall 811-01 carry? HON. W. R. CALLAHAN (Minister of Mines, Agriculture & Resources): Mr. Chairman, before the Committee rose for lunch, the bon. member for Burin had made some remarks with respect to, as he put it, conservation of wildlife resources, and I had indicated to him very briefly, just as the Committee rose, that the definition of "conservation," in this instance was very important.

Because it has to be very broad if it is to apply really to make very much sense in the context of what must be done in respect to wildlife. And essentially, there are three areas Mr. Chairman, of activity, namely, research, management and protection. Now the research aspect falls into two active programs, one of them being, through the forest inventory land capability program, which as the House will be aware, is an eight year, $6 million long-term management research and planning program under agreement with the Government of Canada. And in that project there is a wildlife component.

The obvious reason of course that the land and the forests are the essential habitat of wildlife resources in the designation of land areas and forest areas as to their importance to wildlife is part of that consideration. The research aspects spills o·'ler into the actual profram of the wildlife division, in that certain 5749

specialist· :biologists in that division have the responsibility for specific research on wildlife. There is the on-going and continuing management program which is the major responsibility of the wildlife division, and this involves such things as the designation of management areas, the estab~ishment of quotas in respective hunting, the determination of seasons and all the other practical approaches to wildlife resources that would fall under the heading generally of management.

And then of course, there is the aspect of protection and enforcement which, the House will be aware, is the general enforcement of the various laws and regulations that apply to wildlife from a protection point of view. And I tell the Uouse briefly of the present current situation in respect of the prime wildlife species in this Province. The moose population as of the present time falls som~~here between forty and 45,000 animals.

It is a pretty constant population in the general sense throughout the Province, but in some specific areas, there are difficulties and these are reflected from time to time in the opening or closing or shortening of seasons in those particular areas. One area I think of is Zone Four on the great Northern Peninsula, where this past winter there were requests for a lengthening of the season because of the lack of hunting success. But indeed to lengthen the season~Mr.

Chairman, would provide just the opposite effect to that which was desi~ed, because while hunting success might have been increased in the present season, the herd in that area might well have been destroyed for future seasons. A similar request came from parts of the southwest coast, but the problem in particular areas Mr. Chairman, must be approached I think, from a pretty firm and ~igid point of view, if the resource is to be saved and perpetuated in those particular areas.

But generally across the Province, it is not a~ all a fact, as one hears from time to time,that the moese population is threatened, indeed it is either constant or growing, and there is no evidence of its falling off in the population figures that I have indicaterl between 40,000 and 45.000 - I t~.tink is a pretty indication that 5., r~ !) •uu

The caribou~population Mr. Chairman, is increasing very well. The populatio~ as of the start of the coming .season 1 is estimated on the basis of the expected calf crop this year to approximate 14,000 animals. On the management side, there have been introductions. I have just scribbled down nine particular areas that I recall, and there may be one or two others.

There have been ! · introductions on Fogo Island, on the Port-au-Port peninsula, on Grey Island, and the Horse Islands in the Burin area, Lamaline and Red Harbour, on the Bonavista peninsula near Elliston, on Random Island, north of Gander and on Gregory Plateau. These are areas where there are no caribou, prior to these introductions. There may have been years and years ago, populations in those places but1 for one reason and another, they had died out. The species have been introduced in these areas, and the indications Hr.

Chairman, and there is some credit to the residents of these areas in this 7 . tbe indications .are that the transplanted animals have taken hold and that the populations are increasi~g. and we are very gratified with that. There has been moose introduction in the Roddickton area of the G~eat ' worthern r~ninsula but it was a small group of animals and it has not been possible to this time to say how successful that introduction will be. The rabbit population Mr.

Chairman, about which we hear concerned voice from ti~e to time,is higher now than for a good many years, and we are now at the peak of the ten year cycle, which indicates that from now on, certainly after this year, and certainly after next year, most certainly after next year, there will be some decline. But this is a cyclical thing, a biological cycle that really cannot be affected very much by any management program. There are,however, studies going on all the time in that regard. The ptarmigan population this year#as I indicated this morning,was at perhaps the highest point in some twenty-five years.

This also runs in a ten year cy~le, and we anticipate that for the next several years there will be a drop-off. But again Mr. Chairman, it is not a matter of over-hunting or poaching or anything of that nature, it is a matter of a biological cycle, the population grows and falls dependent upon predacity, dependent upon the 5751

supply of food and other factors. The other significant species I should mention is the beaver and the management trap-line programJthat was instituted some years ago, appears to be working very well, and we see evidence of an increase in the population of that species. There is one other I should mention Mr. Chairman, which is not indigenous to the Province but is important as an animal species to be protected, and that is the polar bear.

The latest evidence is that the prime breeding ground for polar bear is in James Bay, Northern Ontario, and that the animals come down on the ice, there are some over land, but generally over ice down into the northern quarter of the Labrador coast. We are in the midst now of revising the regulations, and I think very shortly, we will declare a closed season on polar bears. I do not know for how long but the evidence is that it may have to be a rather lengthy ban on the hunting of this important representative species.

There is a great deal of concern internationally that the Artie polar bear population may be threatened by possible extinction . and,whatever small part we can play in combating that situation, we intend to do by bringing in shortly the regulation4which will close the season and prevent the taking of these animals. There is just one other comment I would make Sir, and that is in relation to what was said here this morning about putting back 1 into the management and the conservation and protection of wildlife resources, the monies that are obtained in one way and another from that resource.

And I would draw to the attention of bon. members that,over the past number of years, the amount of the vote, the expenditure vote on wildlif~ has been not too much different from the actual income from licences and fines. The income runs somewhere about $500,000 a year, and the expenditure vote as the '69 - 70 show Mr. Chairman, is $483,400. So virtually all, or certainly the great bulk of the income from wildlife directly to this department, I am not talking about the value put on by the tourist board, because that involves expenditures on guides and caterers and hotels and travel and food,

and all the other things that hunters purchase} I am talking about the actual expenditure into the wildlife division, the revenue into the wildlife division, balanced · off against the expenditure, and there is not really very much difference Mr. Chairman. Indeed I think the average over a number of years has been somewhere between eighty or eighty-five and one hundred percent of the actual revenue put back into the management, conservation and protection of this resource. DR.

JAMES McGRATH: Would the minister perhaps be able to give us some information as to the scall herd of caribou that barely maintained itself for many years, between the Southern Shore and St. Mary's Bay? Is there any information on that herd which I understand has been given special attention for some years past? MR. CALLAHAN: I think Mr. Chairman, my bon. friend is referring to what we call the "Avalon herd," which has been protected in the Avalon wilderness. My information Mr. Chairman, is that the herd is doing extremely well under this management program.

It will be known that there are a limited number of licences issued annually. This has been increased~! think, two or three years ago. It was at fifty, and I think last year it was seventy-five, and this strictly is the allowable annual kill. It is tied to the annual increment in the herd. There is a very close census done, and if there appeared to be any depletion in herd numbers and in new calves, then there certainly would be a reduction in the number of licences. DR. McGRATH: Is there an estimate of the present numbers of that herd? MR.

CALLAHAN: I have seen an e~timate and my recollection is about•! think about 700 animals Mr. Chairman, but I would · have to double-check that. DR. McGRATH: It is a tremendous increase over a few years ago. MR. CALLAHAN: That is right. It has been a very successful management operation. MR. EARLE: could I wonder if the minister tell the House how the buffalo on "' Brunette Island are doing? MR. CALLJ",HAN: Mr. Chairman, in July of 1954, twenty-four buffalo from 5753

Elk Island National Park in Alberta were brought to Brunette. The herd went down to I think seven animals, and since then we have had some luck. The herd has been increasing. There has been,! think, five or six calves, so it is back now to twelve or thirteen animals. And we think there is some chance now the experiment will work. For a time it looked as though it would not, and the temptation was very strong to artificially encourage its ability to survive.

But this would have been wrong as the hon. gentleman will realize it would have meant the permanent feeding problem, and an artificial situation which would have had to be sustained. And this thing could only work if the animals themselves could naturally adapt. It looks as though they are now doing that. MR. H. COLLINS: I have a few remarks I would like to make.

Rut first of all I would like to make reference to the most recent report of the Tourist Development Division, which outlines to us,in no uncertain detail, the value of our wildlife in terms of hunting and our fishing and so on, • the value of that in attracting tourist dollars to the Province. Mr. Chairman, last year 1968-69, we find that the estimated value of the travel industry, which is the tourist industry, amounted to an input in the economy of $62.25 mi~lion.

And that report goes on to show the amount which can be attributed to hunting, to fishing, transportation, gasoline sales, accommodation and so on and so forth. Now the figures which are mentioned for hunting is the area of $4. million which means that hunting was responsible for the influx or the income of approximately $4 million to the economy last year.

But then Sir, the report goes on and attributes a certain amount to accommodation and so on and so forth, and I would suspect that if the truth were known, and it would be a very difficult statistic to come up with, that a great portion of the money spent in accommodation and in transportation and in gasoline sales and parks and campsites and miscellaneous, could very well be attributed to hunting •• to people coming in specifically to hunt moose and caribou and 5754

id on. .So t:hf! fisure of $4 million could be possibly eiRht or ton million dollars or -.ybe more than that. I mention this Mr. Chaintan, to •how that this is a very important resource. and when we look around Newfoundland today and examine what resources we have, we must of course consider the fishery • the cod fishery and so on fJ;om the sea. We 111USt also eonsider the forest. and when we consider forest resources, we must also take into account the wildlife resources. because the two are so mucll reliant upon each other. Certainly wildlife is relying upon the forest. When we 57~S

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1078 Page 1 Mr. Collins. look at the resources, we must come to the conclusion that possibly one of our greatest resources is our wildlife and fishing in its attraction of tourist dollars to the Newfoundland Treasury. Sir, I am not at all satisfied. I do not imagine that there are very many members in this hon. House who are satisfied that we are doing all that should be done in terms of protection fo~ our wildlife - not only protection, but in terms of management and research which the minister made reference to a few moments ago.

I am convinced, Sir, that much work remains to be done, We all will remember years ago, when we had a biologist here by the name of Dr. Bergeron. We also had a Dr. Dodds. I believe it was the name. Dr. Dodds was here years ago. Those people seem to be •• MR. CALLAHAN: Was he the kidney pill man or his brother. MR. COLLINS: }~y be he woald be just as well off, if he worked for Dodds kidney pills, because he certainly did not have much affect on the Newfoundland Government's attitude to what they were going to do with wildlife. Finally he became frustrated, as Dr. Bergeron d~and had to leave the Province.

Well, Sir, both those gentlemen were well qualified. They laid some well founded and sound and sensible and sain suggestions to this Government and the record, of course, ahows that the Government did not accept their recommendations. For what reason, I do not know. But, we have been stumbling along in the dark, Mr. Chairmaa,this Government has for a goodly number of years,with no real defined policy in terms of management, research and perfection of our wildlife resources.

I would say that possibly one of ~he greatest needs right now is in the field of research and, of course, when we think of research we must necessarily think of personnel. We must think in terms of cash, and when we talk about personnel, we must also be concerned with the quality of personnel. 575G

JW1e 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1078 Page 2 MR. CALLAHAN: Do you tell me that we do not have quality personnel now? _MR. COLLINS: I think our personnel are doing a real good job, Hr. Chairman right nqw, but I am not satisifed that they are getting the recognition from the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources which they should get. I am not sure that they have adequate bodies in the field to do the work which should be done.

I am not sure that the work which is being done is having much affect, because I believe a lot of it is falling on deaf ears and for that particular reason, may be it is just as well that it was not done, unless people in the department become more aware of the importance in this particular field.

When we talk about research;in a great many areL• ~we can draw upon research which has been done in other countries and other provinces. ~search which has been done in the United States in some areas and research which has been done in Canada, &ut in this particular case,in the wildlife resources of Newfoundland, we have to depend almost entirely upon research which we do ourselves. Because on the major problems, Mr.

Chairman, in my opinion which we have to look at and which we have to look at very carefully is the balance of our wildlife in terms of - not only the balance between the different species in terms of food which is available but we also have to think of it in terms of the changing habitat, if you want to.

Because there has been some progress made in Newfoundland in:terms of industrialization, in terms of hydro-power development, in terms of road constructinn.And every time a road is pushed through the wilderness, which up to that time was almost the sole prerogative of the wildlife, Until such time as the roads were put through; the animals had no human beings to worry about and until hydro-power was developed and dans were erected and so on and so forth, moose and caribou. rabbits, partridge and the other · species of life were to be found in that area.

I am not sure, Sir, that there has been proper co-ordination between the Wildlife Uivision and the Department of Highways and the Department af Economic De~elopment. In fact I am sure there has not been and I am sure that honest people,and there are several of them, many of them, a great number 5757

June 2nd., 1970 Tape no 1078 Page 3 Mr. Collins. of them in the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources. The honest people there will admit that there has not been proper co-ordination of effort between those groups, and I believe, Sir, it is very essential, if we are to maintain a proper balance in terms of species of animals, food available for the changing needs of the animals,owing to the changes taking place in our country, unless all this is taken into account, then I am afraid that we might be going down a dead·end road, as it were.

There are a few other areas which, I know, some work is being done, but I am not sure that adequate work is being .done. It is all very well for the minister to have his opinion. 1 have mine, and I suspect that possibly almost every member in this House has some opinion of what should be done. But here again, Sir, we cannot rely on that. We can argue all day. My opinion might be right and it might no~. The ministers may be right or may be not. I believe that we have to ensure that we have capable people performing the research.

I would be the first to say that the people we have in that particular branch in the Department now are doing real good service. Certainly it is a job that a great number of people would.refuse to do at all, because it entails much hardship in men going out in the forest in the late Fall and early Spring catching caribou; in our ponds, rivers and so on and so forth and transferring them to other areas.

Most of these men are dedicated men, but I suspect, Sir, that we do not have enough of them and certainly we are not providing them with the necessary funds, equipment and whatever to do the job which should be done. Now the minister made some reference to licencing - not to licencing but to establishing quotas and seasons. I am not at all convinced that our open seasons are on the right dates. It has been said, Mr. Chairman, by a great 5758

aune 2nd., 1970 Tape no. 1078 Page 4 Mr. Collins. ' .. number of people in the field, people who have had gained considerable experience or considerable knowledge from a point of view of practical experience, and there is a difference of opinion with many biologists as well. I am not sure that we do have the right open season periods for moose and caribou. I seem to recall last year that, when the season was open for caribou on the islands of the south coast, that stag caribou could be killed ~ and I am sure that that was right, in what we call~hunting business, the good mating season.

I do not know whatAa stag caribou is in the mating season. It is fine for a trophy hunter, but ~fr. Chairman, the meat is certainly it is of no use whatever, because~ineatable in terms of people who are killing their animals foJ own consumption. I would suspect also by having seasons this open on moose and caribou on the Island during the mating seasonAmight have an adverse affect on the production next year. I do not know, if the minister knows or not.

I do not think he does, but I would certainly say that this is an area which needs to be examined very closely and from what I have read and what I have heard so on and so forth, it might be worthwhile considering opening the season in late August. I believe that the commission of Government years ago did have