Volume 4 PROVI.NCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 5, 1975 SPEAKER : T HE HONOURABL E M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 45

May 5, 1975 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 2024 NM - l I would like to welcome to the galleries today seven grade ten and eleven students from Labrador City Collegiate, Labrador City, with their teacher Mr. Cole. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit here is most interesting and informative. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU, MINISTER OF TRANSPORATION AND COMMUNICATIONS: I rise on a point of personal privilege, Mr.

Speaker, in respect to certain statements made by the honourable the Member for Bell Island wld ch ,,,.:, re, carried on the electronic media and in The Eveeinr Tele~ram over the weekend and I think it is time that we laid before the House all the particulars in respect to "water bomber contract". Now, Mr. Speaker, in order to that and the insinuation of the weekend that Mr. Jamieson or his office was not aware of any agreement, I think I will have to go back and,I think for everybody's sake, that the details of this be laid before the House, MR. ROBERTS: Point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1 MR.

ROBERTS: Point of order, I do not for a minute wish to impede the honourable gentleman if he wishes to make a ministerial statement with respect to this matter but surely a point of personal privilege is not an occasion for a long statement on what may or may not have transpired in connection with some official correspondence ar..d official actions. The honourable gentleman seems to me might be more in order, Sir, if he would, you know,if he is going to make a statement if he makes it on the point when Your Honour calls ministerial statements. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair was pretty well of the same ~pinion. I was willi~g to hear the honourable minister if he was establishing a point of privilege but I perhaps feel at the moment jt might be better if it were on a point of a ministerial statement.

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2024 NM - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I accept whatever way I can get this on the table of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the honourable minister in making a ministerial statement. MR. ROUSSEAU: Okay,then.I will make a ministerial statement, Sir. And I am going to make the statement and I am going to complete it, you know, with everything here because I think it is to everybody's benefit and I am going to go back in time if I may. Last Wednesday the honourable Member for Bell Island asked a rather innocuous question and I replied to the question.

Then the honourable the Leader of the Opposition spent some time persuing the question. I can understand why the honourable Member for Bell Island did not. But on Friday at five-thirty or a quarter to six, the honourable Member for Bell Island gave,and I quote the news media,a."hot tip", from,it was mentioned in the media,a federal member for the riding involved who had checked with the office. Now, Mr. Speaker, on Thursday the honourable the Leader of the Opposition was not satisfied with my reply in the Bouse on Wedn-day and on Thursday he asked for it to be debated on the late show.

And as the honourable Speaker blows, I wanted to make certain that on the late show I had my five minutes on Thursday and that it was not two or three minutes left. And I mentioned to theronourable the Speaker and to the honourable the Deputy Speaker, or Deputy Chairman of CollDDitteas that I wanted to make sure I had five minutes. But unfortunatlly,as I understand it, the Leader of the Opposition could not make it on Thursday. So on Friday I thought about it, myself and my colleague the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, said no, we will let it go and we let it go. It is not making mistakes, Mr.

Speaker, that hurts you politically, it is repeating them so I do not intend ·to repeat the same mistake and let this go but I intend to lay before the House the facts. Now .first of all, Mr. Speaker, I have a number of things that I am prepared to table today. This is done in conjunction with the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture but I had the question posed to me and we have discussed it and everything here that is given from his department or anything on his behalf is with his compliance. 5960

May S, 1975 Tape No. 2024 NM - 3 Now first of all I would like to clear one little item and I think that somehow or other the honourable Leader of the Opposition who is not in his seat but I am sure can hear me, questions the fact that a subsidary agreement in fore8try was signed, questions the fact. Now I am not prepared to table the agreement. That is the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and the honourable Don Jamieson to agree on and should the honourable members across want that they can pose their question to the appropriate minister. MR.NEARY: The letter of consent was signed Friday. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I am prepared - it is correct, let me get to it okay . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: Now, Mr. Speaker I am prepared to lay on the table of the House the press release, the story from The Evening Telegram dated April 27, I believe it is, and The Daily News story, there is a picture there of Mr. Jamieson and the honourable the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations signing the forestry agreement. So I will lay these on the table of the House. The agreement was signed. There was no question about that.

Furthermore in what I passed out this morning there were certain selected items on the forestry agreement but I have included on the last page - MR. NEARY: That has nothing to do with the - MR. ROUSSEAU: One second now.I am trying to allieviate first the fears of the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. On the last page of the information - MR. NEARY: People down there - MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, can I have - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I want to show this House today and I want to show the press who have been extremely responsible on Friday, had they not come to me, the threat of scandal and everything else, I want to show the people of this Province how a politician uses the weekend media, how he uses the weekend media to insult the minds of the people of this Province.

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2024 NM - 4 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh , Oh! MR. ROUSSEAU: Now, Mr. Speaker, on the last page of the hand out this morning - MR. NEARY: What about the personal references? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: The signatures which were put on the agreement on that date, the honourable Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion, Donald Jamieson, and witnessed,and the honourable the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations and a witness. Now I would like to go through,if I may, Mr. Speaker, what happened in this situation.

Nmnber one, and the first page of the hand out is a Minute-in-Council, Minute-in-Council number 744, 1974, approved on 26th. of June 1974, ordered that the following action relatinp; to the ?oreat Fire Air Fleet of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture be and it is hereby approved, provided the necessary fends to meet the costs involved are available in the department's vote for 1974-1975, the reconditioning of two Canso aircraft at an estimated cost of $150,000 per aircraft. The - excuse me I . have to go back and forth, Mr. Speaker. Now, following that, Mr.

Speaker, following the cabinet approval to proceed, our aircraft experts reviewed the capabilities of many firms to determine who might be able to do the work. To our dismay we found that no company in the Province was licenced at that time by the Federal Department of Transportation to undertake the highly complex and technical task that was required. At that point in time there was nobody provincially licenced. Several firms on the Mainland were invited to submit tenders on August 30, 1974. And those firms, Mr. Speaker, were as follows: Atlantic Aviation of Canada, Field Aviation, Weston Aviation,c.A.E.

Aircraft Limited, St. Louis Aviation Incorporated, Aircraft Metal Specialist Limited, Eastern Aviation Contractors Limited, Cross Canada Flights Limited. I am sorry, Eastern Aviation was not first invited. Tenders were called on August 30 but because Eastern Aviation wanted to have the ~pportunity, the tender date was extended to 5968

May 5, 1975 Tape no. 2024 NM - 5 September 6th. and 11th. to allow Eastern Aviation to have the opportunity to bid on this contract. MR. HICIQ{.AN: Who is Eastern Aviation? They are - MR. ROUSSEAU: They are in Gander. That is a Gander based company. So seven companies were invited because the Newfoundland company did not have federal licence to do the kind of work that we wanted but we had the contract date extended from August 30th. to September 11th. to allow Eastern Avaiation to bid. Now that bid was looked at with all the other ones. Now I can read here a few notes I have.

In respect to the Fiel~ Aviation, here is what the technical experts said,"Field Aviation Limited, Galgar y , Alberta quoted $307,896.35, for both aircraft with fabric covered training edges or $326,902.15 with metal. This firm made the most thorouph inspection of the aircraft and the most comprehensive report. This is an ideal work package.

Field have also coDD11itted themselves within these fi~ure~ to twelve items which none of the others offer, Included are furnishing and installation of wing strob lights, a desirable safety item, provision and installation of new cabin warning lights and illuminated signs with batteries, engine instruments and transmitters and the other ones were also indicated." Here is the reading on the Eastern Aviation one. Eastern Aviation Contractors Limited, Gander, Newfoundland quoted a total of $186,128 for both aircraft. They did not quote separately for metalized trailing edges.

Their bid is qualified by the statement and I quote, "In the event extensive repairs are required due to corrosion or damage not evident until after dismantling parts of the aircraft .1 we would like to reserve the right to negotiate further based on the extent of these repairs": This is in effect asking for a blank cheque because they do not specify in clear terms how much they are prepared to do at the price.

Whereas 596:J

May 5, 1975 Tape no. 2025 Page 1 - mw the other ones were finn bids. So this - and unofficially the airplanes were dispatched, the two Cansos were dispatched without approval to Toronto. There is no question about that. And they were held in Toronto for approval. But in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, it csme to the attention of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and myself that this situation had occurred, and we had the background of the story and the airplanes were kept in Toronto for ten days, twelve days or somewhere in that area and the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and myself went back to cabinet.

We explained everything to our colleagues in cabinet, and it was cabinet's wish, and before I say that I should read, and that is in here, the minutes of the Joint Federal-Provincial Colllllittee on Forestry. The committee agreed to the establishment of a new project under progranme item six, rebuilding four Canso water bombers at an estimated total cost of $800,000. It is estimated that expenditures on this project will total $400,000 during the present fiscal year.

If necessary funds for the project will be transferred from item four in the agreement and an exchange of letters between the minister will be arranged by Mr. Sheppard if required. The committee approved the method of the tender call whereby eight finns were invited to bid on project. It also approved the awarding of the tender to Field Aviation Limited, Calgary, this firm being the lowest evaluated tender. MR. NEARY: The federal boys approved. MR. ROUSSEAU: The Joint Federal-Provincial Committee approved it. Now it was government's wish that this committee re-evaluate its recommendation.

And even beyond that the committee was told that it was govermnent's wish that if there was anyway that the Eastern Aviation Limited could have the contract, government would like to see them have the contract. They were told that, the Federal-Provincial Committee verbally in a meeting held in the Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture's office at which I was present. The group, the Federal Management Committee, the Federal-Provincial Subsidiary Agreement on Forestry on October 28, 59·10

May 5, 1975 Tape no. 2025 Page 2 - mw and I showed the Hon. Member for Bell Island this letter on Friday, to the Hon. H. Collins, Minister of Forestry and Agriculture after we had requested that they re-evaluate and attempt to give it, if at all possible, to Eastern Aviation. MR. NEARY: The minister showed me the letter after. MR. ROUSSEAU: At your request the Federal-Provincial Management Committee of the Forestry Subsidiary Agreement has re-examined its approval of an award of tender for the rebuilding of two Canso water bombers.

At the request of government and at the further request of government tliat,if at all possible, it should go to Gander no question, And the co111111ittee, I am sure, will verify that fact. The decision to award the contract to Field Aviation in Calgary was made within the terms of reference of the committee and was based on information presented by the Department of Transportation and Co111111unications. That would be by Mr. Leland, the Chief Engineer and other technical people. The cmmnittee, after reconsideration, confirms its decision.

And that is co-signed by R, Sheppard, who is the co-chairman provincially and J. Baker, who is the co-chairman federally. And that letter is being tabled this morning. So on November 6, a Minute-in-Council was passed, which is here, ordering that the contract be given to Field Aviation as per the recommendations of the Joint Federal..Provincial Committee. AN HON. MEMBER: Is the date correct? MR. ROUSSEAU: October 28, oh, I am sorry, November 6. Now I must atop for a minute, Mr. Speaker, and give an indication of what the Forestry Agreement is.

The Forestry Agreement, in effect, consists of eight different programmes, number one to eight. Now we, provincially, can change any one within any one of the eight prograJ1111es. Any one of them can be changed back and forth. But according to what I have tabled as well here today,

Section 7 of the agreement says this, and this is going to be tabled: Each of the ministers, that is the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and the Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion, shall designate one or more senior officials to be responsible for the administration of this agreement. 5971

Mays, 1975 Tape no. 2025 Page 3 - - These officials shall constitute the Management Committee whose function it shall be to oversee the implemen.tation of the programme specified, to find infrastructure components and projects for the purpose of this agreement and to fulfill responsibilities identified for the Management Committee elsewhere in this agreement. The federal minister and the provincial ministers shall respectively appoint one federal and one provincial official from the members of the Management Committee to act as co-chairman. And

Section 19,which has also been passed out,says this: This agreement and

Schedule A thereof, which lists the programmes and the amount, may be amended as agreed from time to time by the ministers and relevant amendments to be made by an exchange of correspondence between the two ministers. Each programme item added to

Schedule A shall form part of this agreement and shall be governed by the terms thereof as fully and eff~ctively as if it had originally been included in this agreement. It is expressly understood and agreed, however, that any amendment to

Section 6 shall require the approval of the Governor-in-Council. Well anyway. So in order to have the bombers refurbished and money had to be diverted from one programme to another where there was an excess then it requires the joint signatures of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and the Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion. I did that last year in respect to the LaScie Road and the St. Anthony contract. You cannot wait until they are signed. We are men of honour. The federal government are men of honour. As Mr. Jamieson said, yes, we are going to sign it.

On an item of that amendment we go ahead and do it, because you cannot wait and time.is of the essence in the refurbishing of the water bombers. Good. So in the meantime on October i6 the Deputy Minister of Forestry and Agriculture wrote the Secretary of the Forest Agreement Management Committee and he says, an integral part of this new Forest Management Programme is the development of an adequate fire protection system. One of the elements of this system was not adequately identified at the time of the signing of the agreement and that is the water bomber fleet.

It has now been decided by the Province that the most practical approach to providing a fire supression service is the refurbishing of 5972

May 5, 1975 Tape no. 2025 Page 4 - mw the Canso water bombing fleet. This is estimated to cost $200,000 for a machine and it is planned to do two machines per year starting this winter. May I request the committee approval on this as a project under programme six. (October 16 now) This will require an adjustment of the budget, and I would suggest the following, and he suggests a transfer of funds. I would be pleased to attend the appropriate committee meeting to discuss this matter if necessary . So, Mr.

Speaker, as it happened,and very surprisingly so on Friday afternoon after this myself and the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture went down to his office and met with the deputy minister. And lo and behold on my way into the minister's office what should I see right on the top of the letter pile on his secretary's desk was a letter from the Hon. Mr. Jamieson, the letter referred to by the Hon. Member for Bell Island. So I am not prepared to table that letter. Again it is here but you take my word for it. If Mr. Jamieson wants to do it, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture will do it. That is up to him.

But it is private correspondence between them but they may. MR. ROBERTS: What was the date on it? MR. ROUSSEAU: Just let me . I am going to do that. But the Minister of ForestTV anci Agriculture and Mr. Jamieson if they want to. The date was April 30,1975. MR. MORGAN: That _is 1 years ago. MR. ROBERTS: Wednesday. MR. ROUSSEAU: Right. Now remember what I previously said. I previously said that any change in programmes bas to be signed by both ministers. It does not mean that it takes effect when it is signed.

You know, we have done many roads and many other programmes have been carried out under the same aspect of the agreement. And I got all of the supporting evidence right here that the Federal Provincial Committee agreed with it. But the first line 9f the Hon. Don Jamieson's letter to Mr. Collins, I am prepared to read into the record of the House. 597;;

May 5, 1975 Tape no. 2025 Page 5 - lllll MR. ROBERTS: Read the whole letter. MR. ROUSSF.A.U: No, I do not want to. I just want ~o get dates. And if the Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture with the concurrence of Mr. Jamieson wants to it is quite all right with me. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Jamieson's office told me that the letter is public. MR. ROUSSEAU: Okay. I am going to wait and check and find out what we will do. But anyway,the first line, The Hon. Harold A. Collins, M.H.A., Minister of Forestry and Agriculture - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order , please! KR.

ROUSSEAU: No, just the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. Dear Harold; This refers to your letter of February 13 - MR. ROBERTS: Three months after the contract had been awarded. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, but that is what we are saying. The point I am trying to make is that you do not wait for signatures on the appointment of the job. This job of refurbishing the water bombers had to be done. Time was of the essence. The Federal-Provincial Agreement was acted under by the Joint Federal-Provincial Management Committee, co-sigeed by both. The letter is here. So to say that Mr.

Jamieson's office knew nothing of it is not accurate.That_Mr. Jamieson did not know,but it is quite possible because it is done at the officials' level. The authority is in the agreement for them to act at the officials' level. So, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing under the table. There is no scandal nor scandalous acts in respect to this. I think the govermnent did everything in its power to ensure that the contract went to the company which in the belief of the people who were involved it was the best deal.

The government bent over backwards to give the contract to Eastern Aviation to the point of holding those waaer bombers for ten or twelve days, I forget what it was, in Toronto to ask the Joint Management Committee, the Federal- Provincial Management Conmittee to re-evaluate its decision in the letter here of 6ctober 28 which says, no, it confirms its decision. It is a joint federal-provincial agreement. The recommendation of this group to the minister is normally a situation which has to be accepted, and it was accepted in this case. 5974

May 5, 1975 Tape 2026 (morning) IB-1 And you know, I lay on the table of the House the pertinent information. And with the facts, I said, you know, there is no doubt in our minds in government that there is any scandal or anything else involved in the awarding of this contract for two water bombers to field aviation in Calgary. Now, I think that it is unfair that any suggestion of that take place. I think it is unfair that the honourable Member for Gander-Twillingate did not check further.

Quite possibly the gentleman he spoke to in DREE may not have known it but that does not mean that nobody in the office knew it. And Eastern Aviation, I am surprised that they would bring their complaints to the Opposition. They could have had the same answers here. If the honourable members across the House had asked at any point in time in the past six months or three months, we would have laid all of this on the table of the House. On Thursday I offered, Mr. Speaker - AN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: Brother-in-law of the Member for Bell Island, is he not? MR. NEARY: So what!

He is also the father of two ch:1 ldren, a Roman Catholic - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: So are a lot of other people. MR. NEARY: A resident of Gander. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: So what! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: So what. Cut out MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 'MR. ROUSSEAU: So, I will - MR. NEARY: Go on you slime. MR. SPEAK.ER: Order, please! the slime you guttersnipe. Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, if you - MR. NEARY: So what! 'MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.. PECK.FORD: If there is any slime, it is yours and nobody else's. MR.

SPEAK.ER: Honourable members must be reminded of the rule that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence. If honourable members have differences of opinion, then they should not be

!-fay 5, 1975 Tape 2026 (morning) IB-2 talking across the House as such. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, on Thursday when the honourable the Leader of the Opposition was not here to carry on this debate in the Late Show, I offered to read it out and lay it on the table of the Rouse. It was not permitt:ed I did not have the consent of the House. We were prepared to lay that on the table of the House. There was nothing underhanded in it. I hope once and for a.11 that the matter is now clarified - MR. NEARY: No, not quite. MR.

ROUSSEAU:- that it is a closed matter and beyond what we have said and beyond the word of the joint federal-provincial committee, beyond the word of the ~inistry of Economic Expansion, Regional Economic Expansion, and this government, that the matter has now been laid to rest, I hope to the satisfaction of all. I would hope - and I presume that I was not permitted to do that on Thursday and lay it there because nobody is looking for the truth,but the honourable members across the House were looking for some publicity. You know, they had the government with their grimy little hands in the cash till somewhere.

You know, it is a fine suggestion. But, there is nothing underhanded, nothing scurrilous about this awarding of this contract. I would hope that the rlocuments laid on the table of the House would substantiate that suggestion from the government. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. f?OBl'r.>TS: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately we are not allowed to debate the minister's statement. Of course the minister has taken advantage of the ministerial statement privilege, and I submit has in fact abused it because we are not allowed to reply to him.

Let me say simply that I shall examine the documents with some care. The minister has given us a carefully edited version of documents which do not ~ake his case, do not support his case. The fact remains that the government did not award this contract to the lowest tender and the fact remains, despite what the minister may have read from a carefully selected version of documents - I would hope the ones he lays upon the table of the House are complete. If not, it will speak for itself. But, the fact remains, Sir, that the government have adopted a very 5976

May 5, 1975 Tape 2026 (morning) IB-3 curious approach to this. I do not mind the personal attacks on the fact that one of the principals in the company happens to be the brother-in-law of the gentleman from Bell Island. That is typical of the government's approach on this whole matter, a government that held themselves out as somehow not being interested in personalities. There are four or five other principals in that company, ~r. Speaker. Some of them have been very active in the Tory cause. Some have not. So what!

The fact remains, Sir, that the company in Gander was capable in the view of many people~includ:ln g the company, of doing the work. The minister - all I will say since I cannot debate it, very simply, is that where there is smoke, there is fire . Now, the minister has put up a great cloud of smoke over this. For a man who maintains that the government have acted properly throughout and with propriety and with regularity, he is making an awful great deal of noise and an awful great deal of being wounded and somehow offended. All I will say is that we have not had the full story yet. We shall get the full story.

Whether or not these documents contain it remains to he seen. When we have the full story, there will be a great deal more to be said. But, I maintain that everything the minister has said supported it and everything he did not say supports it, that where there is smoke there is fire. There is a great deal of smoke about this matter. I am convinced there is some fire there yet. MR, SPEAKER: Are there any other ministerial statements? MR. ROUSSEAU: I have a very simple one here, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I would like to announce the appointment of Thomas B. Grandy to the position of director of communications. Mr. Grandy is a Newfoundlander, was born in Garnish. Mr. Grandy received his early education in Newfoundland and graduated from Memorial University with a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees. Re received his Ph.D. at the University of Alberta. Until recently he has been employed with Bell Northern Research. Re will be assuming his duties immediately and in fact he has been working for the past week. They will include responsibility for the planning, organizing,

May 5, 1975 Tape 2026 (morning) IB-4 co-ordinating and developing of a telecommunications policy for the Province and the g~vernment's position and polieies in the telecommunications field, for example, in radio and television broadcasting, educational television, general radio, television services, cable and special services, video, data transmission systems, computer communications by cable, telephone and telegraph services, and the use of the Telestat Communications Satellite. PRESENTING PETITIONS: REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in connection with presenting petitions, Sir.

The Minister of Rural Development has a petition now for five or six weeks that he was asked to present in the Ho11Se. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . NEARY: I have a copy of it, Sir - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! '1-!R. NEARY: - that I would like to table. MR. SPEAKER: Order• please! The Chair did call presenting petitions and nobody rose to present a petition. I called Reports of Standing or Select Committees. 1-'R. ROBERTS: Well, you have done it with notices of motion time and time again. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island was out of order and certainly he is probably aware.

Only the original petition really i!'l really to be presented in the - So, the minister will not present the petition. So - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - the people have asked me to. AN HON0URABLE MEMBER: He is scared to. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WRICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. E. MAYNARD ('t.UNISTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Mr. Speaker. T have the answer to question no. 48 asked by the honourable Member for Bell Island on the Order Paper dated April 24, 1975. 5978

May 5, 1975 Tape 2026 (morning) ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a four barrel question, I guess it is, to the honourable the Premier, Sir - pardon? MR. KlORES: Could we take them one at a time? MR. NEARY: Okay. We will do them one at a time. Could the Premer tell us now the situation concerning the Linerboard Mill? Haw much down time are we going to have? Will there be any permanent layoffs? What will be the effect on the economy of Stephenville? Is any effort being made by government to take up the slack?

Will there be any new iddustries locating in Stephenville in the near future to take up the slack of this? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MJORES: Mr. Speaker, befere answering that question, I would like to say - I hope I am not ruled out of order here - to apolegize to anybody in this House where I or anybody makes a personal reference to IB-5 any relations. I do that gladly. I mean in the heat of debate I suppose things are said.

But certainly when individuals who are related to either members of the House or any other individuals in this Province are referred to derogatorily 1ust for a personal point I think it is wrong, and certainly I have no bones about apologizing for that sort of statement. Regarding the Stephenville mill, Mr, Speaker. The fact is that as all members of this House know, the business of the pulp and paper industry and the line:rboard industry,with the recession in the United States; are having difficult times.

The linerboard mill, the objective is, as I understand it from the management, to do their utmost from their marketing agencies to keep the mill going as long as possible. As we know we have had an announcement of Bowaters having down time again at the end of May. It is a difficult time when you consider the recessionary tendancies in the United States today where unemployment there is probably higher than any ti- since the thirties, I guess it is, and when you consider areas like Detroit which are very heavily industrialized are having difficult times. These will correct themselves in time, Mr.

Speaker, but it is going to take time. Regarding the Stephenville area, the Minister of Industrial Development can answer this as well, we are continually trying to 5979

May 5, 1975 Tape 2026 (w,ming) IB-6 encourage industry into the Stepllenville area as well as other parts of the Province. All I can say regarding the linerboard mill at this time is that every effort is being made. The management and the staff of the mill itself are working exceptionally hard to do a good job. They are doing a good job. It is getting better all the time. I just wish that world conditions were such that the linerboard mill could, you know, be going full belt all the time the same as Price and Bowaters and other mills that are being affected where they have export products.

But, the fact is the world recessionary situation whether it be in fish or these other products is having a tough time, and Newfoundland whilst we have not, I suppose, suffered as much as many other parts of the world, the fact is that we certainly also feel the effects of it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for BeJl Island. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. I do appreciate the Premier's apology, Sir. It takes a big man to do that. Sir, I wonder if the honourable the Premier could tell us the situation concerning North Star Cement in Corner Brook. Bow 11.ach dm,n t:lme they are going to have"?

Will there be any permanent layoffs as a result of this down time? Will any effort be •ade on the part of the govermient to employ the students who will not be able to find jobs this Rummer as a result of North Star Cement having to cut its production? What is the situation? Is it as bad as it see-? If so, what about the second cement plant that is due to be set up in Newfoundland? Will that now be going ahead? Just what is the situation concerning this? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. moRES: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take 5960

May 5, 1975. Taoe 2027 RH - 1 notice of the first question to find out the exact detail because I am not as familiar with it as to be able to give a definitive answer. Regarding the second cement plant, I think the Minister of Industrial Development can answer that. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, on the first part of the question as the Premier says we will get the information for the honourable member. I am not familiar with the situation. Unfortunately I have been out of the Province for some time.

On the second cement mill, the new cement mill, the large one that was to have been built on the Port au Port Peninsula, it was originally conceived as a joint project of Lehigh Cement and the BRINEX people, a subsidiary of BRINCO. Unfortunately, during the recession, the building recession, construction recession in the United States, Lehigh Cement found themselves in an over­ expended position with regards to capital. The cash flow position is terrible. They had participated in the tremendous construction boom that had taken place in Florida on the Eastern seaboard, par­ ticularly in the condominium areas.

When the recession occurred in the United States last year, this year they found themselves in a position whereby they were overextended and they have reluctantly had to withdraw from the joint project. The BRINEX people have already done with Lehigh a feasibility study on the plant and there seems to be little doubt that it is a feasible project. Unfortunately, as I say, the Lehigh people are no longer in position to participate and so they have invited several Canadian companies to join them in the construction of the plant. A market survey is now being undertaken by these Canadian companies.

It is in an attempt to move into the Canadian market and the Northern United States market. I do not know the results of the survey. We have not received it as yet but the indications from BRINEX seell\ to be that the thing is anything but dead. Unfortunately, they are not as active as we would like to see it. Our hopes were that the Lehigh people 598i

May 5, 1975. Tape 2027 RH - 2 and BRINEX would have had the thing under construction by now but the economic conditions are such that it is to preclude that possibility. But as I say, Sir, it is not dead and we are still hopeful. 1-1R.. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Sir, a supplementary to the Premier. I was really more interested in the cutback of the North Star Cement and the effect that was going to have on the economy in Corner Brook.

Would the Premier care to tell the House if he has had any correspondence, any conversations on the telephone or any conmunication at all with Atlantic Cement or Atlantic Gypstnn because I understand they are going to close too and the effects that all these closures are going to have on the economy of West Coast of this Province. How long will it last? Does the Premier have any idea? Just, what is the situation out there? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. P~IER MOORES: I will have to take notice again, Mr. Speaker, but certainly I will get that information today and certainly make it available. l1R.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier also find out about Price Newfoundland, what the situation is going to be in Grand Falls and also give the House that information? Sir, another question for the honourable the Premier. Back in 1972, I think it was, when the government dropped the mothers' allowance the Premier indicated that there would be a programme to take its place. Can the Premier now tell the House when the new progra:nme that was to replace the mothers' allowance announced in 1972, when that new programme will be put into effect? MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: At the appropriate time, Mr. Speaker. :1-lR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier - a supplementary, Sir, would the Premier indicate to the House when he would consider it appropriate to make this announcement of this new progranme? Will it be in the next couple of weeks, the next month7 PREMIER M'.JORES: As soon as possible, Mr. Speaker. 5982

'• .. May 5, 1975. Tape 2027 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Could the Premier be a little more specific and tell us what period of time he is talking about? PREMIER MOORES: Unfortunately not, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Before an election. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the President of Treasury Board fresh back from Southern sunshine would tell the House what is happening, Sir, concerning the liquor store strike. Is the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations involved?

Is he trying to get the parties back to bargaining table or is there still a standoff and nothing being done to try to resume negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Well, these questions are difficult to answer when the person who asks the question gives his opinion of what the answer already is. The honourable Member for Bell Island says that nothing has been done to try to get these parties together. MR. NEARY: No. I said is there nothing being done. Is there any- thing being done? MR. DOODY: Certainly that is not so, Your Honour.

This government and certainly Treasury Board are very concerned about the situation at the Newfoundland Liquor Commission. We have been in consultation with people at Manpower. The honourable the minister is quite capable of speaking for h:llllself as to what steps have been taken and are being taken. We have been negotiating with the NAPE who are representing the liquor commission employees and we are prepared to keep negotiating with them whenever they feel that there is some advantage in resuming these negotiations.

We are most anxious to get the thing resolved obviously and nobody wants to see a strike, certainly not a prolonged strike. We are most anxious to get the thing moving. The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, of course, is quite capable of saying what his department's participation

May 5, 1975. Tape 2027 RH - 4 has been and will be. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Industrial Development, the President of Treasury Board. Would the minister care to tell the House if any of the clubs of taverns in Newfotmdland at the present time have gone dry? Does the minister know of any cases? Are there any pubs now without, not beer I suppose, without wine? MR. DOODY: There is nothing so sad as a pub without beer. Now, Sir, it is to the best of my knowledge there are no liquor establishments short of beverages completely.

I do feel though by this time that there are, very likely, some of them who are short of the hard liquor, the more stimulating alcoholic beverages. But I really cannot say. I have not done a survey of all of them as yet but I can assure you that some of them are. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. Would the Minister of Justice inform the House what action has been taken by his department · to prevent bootlegging in Newfoundland during the strike of the employees of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission? MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! HR.

NEARY: Any extra precautions taken taken by the minister's department? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! That question can go on the Order Paper. MR. NFARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, Sir, could tell the House whether or not the site for the facilities for the Summer Games has yet been picked and if so would the minister tell the House where it is? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. T. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, that is not a question for me or for government to answer.

That comes out of the complete jurisdiction of the Canada Games Society. !1R. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister is ------ conttibuting over $5 million towards this project, would the minister 5984

May 5, 1975. Tape 2027 RH - 5 not be advised when the site is selected? CAPTAIN WINSOR: Has he got no input to it? MR. NEARY: Would the minister not be advised, not know where the site is, where it is going to be? The government does have a vested interest in this matter. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Signal Hill, maybe up on Signal Hill. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I do· not know how often I have to say it but the complete responsibility for the Canada Games, be they Summer or Winter is under the jursidiction of the municipality.

As such the Mayor and Council of this city have appointed a comnittee known as the Canada Games Association of Newfoundland and those questions would be better directed at that Comnittee and not at government. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question for the minister. In view of the fact that the government are putting $5 million into this project will the minister insist that the govermnent's tendering procedure is used in the spending of this money for the construction of the facilities? Will the minister insist on that? Is the minister asking that the government tendering procedure be followed. MR.

DOYLE: I am not going to answer that. MR. SPEAKER: O~der, please! Before I recognize the honourable Member for Bell Island another question, I have just been informed that we have in the galleries Mayor Lambert of Tvillingate and the town manager, Mr. Hoe. On behalf of all honourable members I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit here is most interesting. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I better switch to another minister. I am not going to get much information from that one.

Sir, would the Minister of Tourism care to tell the House whether or not a news blackout has been placed on the Norms and Gladys affair? If so, why is there a news blackout? 5985

May 5, 1975 !ape 2028 (Horning) PK - l MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Tourism. HON. T. HICKEY (MINISTER OF T6URISM): I have no idea, Hr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of anyone declaring a news blackout. I have suggested that those parties interested, especially the members of the Opposition who have a particular interest in the project allow us to get on with it and develop it to the point ,,.here we can make a final decision. MR. NEARY: Hr.Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

Is the minister aware that the owner of the shipyards in Clarenville where the Norma and Gladys is being refurbished stated that there vas a news blackout? ts the minister aware of that? MR. HICKEY~ Yes, Mr. Speaker, I read it. I am aware of it. I was approached by a reporter from The TelegTam who informed me, and I told that reporter, and I will tell the House right now that the shipyards is a private property as far as I aa concerned. If the gentleman vishes to bar anyone from going on his premises that is his prerogative and his privilege. MR. NEARY: "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister.

In view of the fact that the Norma and Gladys is public property, would the minister arrange a tour of the newsmen to go and take photographs or to inspect - MR. SPEAKER: HR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER.: MR. RICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Order, please: - the Norma and Gladys if they vish~ Order, please: That question is out of order. I would be glad to answer it, Your Honour. Yes, go ahead and answer it. Okay if the honourable minister wishes to answer it. Absolutely not, Hr. Speaker. I have no intentions of allowing photographs so that the project can be further damaged, absolutely no intentions. MR.

NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the minister care to tell us how he expects the project to be further damaged by photographs of the Norma and Gladys '? In what way? 5986

May 5, 1975 Tape 2028 (Morning) PK - 2 MR. HICKEY: I simply ask, Mr. Speaker, that a reasonable amount of time be allowed so that the project can be completed and then a final decision will be made. I have stated publicly and I restate it again now that the linal decision with regard to this project will be made in good time based on proper information. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was not quite clear there whether the minister will or will not arrange a tour of the newsmen to take pictures or to inspect the Norma and Gladys if they want to? Did the minister saY,no,he would not do that?

And if so why not? MR. HICKEY: I would be qi.ite happy to, Mr. Speaker, when the proper opportunity arrives. I mean there is no point in having the work stopped for such a tour at this particular moment. When that vessel is ready for its sea trials the press will be welcoae aboard, the Member for Bell Island especially. I might even arrange a special job for him. AN HON. MEMBER: Will the minister go out 1f it is a good - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Minister of Tourism,.

Would the mini.ster tell the Bouse where the ten information ~lazas that are to be constructed in Newfoundland, where are they going to be built? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: I do not have the details, Mr. Speaker. Does the honourable member mean the locations where they are going to be established? MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: Yes. I do not have the details. I will be glad to get them. Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the - no I think I will go after the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs on this one, Sir. What about the Lower Battery?

Would the minister tell us now what is happening concerning the rehabilitation of the Lower Battery that bas been on the go 1111w for so long? MR. SPEAKER: The Bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. 598";

Mav 5, 1975 Tape 2028 (Horning) HON. A. B. PECKFORD (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): nr. Speaker, MF. NEARY: I caught him off guard. MR. PECKFORD: - I cannot answer that question right now. I am not familiar with what the honourable member is asking. If he is asking about the St. John's East Neighbourhood Improvement Programme, the Rehabilitation Programme I can answer that. If he PK - 3 is talking specifically about the Lower Battery and the rehabilitation thereof of that

section of town I would have to take it under advisement and get some information for him. I cannot give him information on St. John's East - MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. What I am asking the minister if anything has been done · to rehabilitate the Battery under the urban renewal scheme? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there is no such thing as an urban renewal scheme. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware thet Shea Heights was an urban renewal scheme, and Mundy Pond? MR. PECKFOJ'D: Yes, ~.r. Speaker, it was an urban renewal scheme. MR. NEARY: Is there any such thing now as an urban renewal scheme? MR.

PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, there is not . MR. NF.ARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, does the minister have any intention of entering into an agreement with the City Council, the Government of Canada under some kind of an urban renewal scheme to rehabilitate the Battery? MR. PECKFORD: The federal government's stated policy on that is that there is to be no more urban renewal schemes, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr'. Speaker, a supplementary question - no, perhaps a question for the Minister of Tourism, Sir. The Battery comes under the minister's department.

Does the minister have any intention of approaching Ottawa to have the Lower Battery rehabilitated under the National Historic Sites Programme? MR. HICKEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have since 1966 put forth the suggest that the Battery and indeed the whole area stretching down to Quidi Vidi be included in the Signal Hill National Historic 5988

May 5, 1975 Tape 2028 (Morning) PK - 4 Park. But for a great number of years, Mr. Speaker, my suggestions fell on deaf ears. We are moving forward with a programme and a plan to the federal government in conjunction with the City Council. I understand they have lately decided that they are prepared to get involved, and hopefully something will come out of this. That is all of the details that I can give at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation.

The minister undertook to get some information on the design work being done, supposed to be done, ,for the Conne River Causeway. I asked him earlier whether the design was under contract. He undertook to find out. Has he any information since then? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and CoDDUunications. I will ask the officials to check or give the information to the member today if he wants to privately or at the answer question tomorrow. I have not had a chance to see the officials this morning. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Orders of the Day, on Friday I think it was the Hon.

Member for Hermitage rose on a point of privilege, and I took the matter under advisement. I have since - I,of course,recessed the House for a few minutes and listened to the tapes. I have since listened to them again and obtained transcripts of what was said by the Hon. the Premier and the Hon. Member for Hermitage. And find that the Hon. Member for Hermitage did not estabish a prima facie case. It was a difference of opinion as to what was said by two honourable persons. Orders of the Day. MR. SIMMONS: Disgraceful: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair just made a ruling and the Hon. Member for Hermitage was heard to say disgraceful. Now the Chair can only interpret that in one way 1that the member was challenging the ruling made by tl.e Chair. Iain sure that if the honourable member does not agree with the ruling then he certainly has the right to appeal the ruling. 598~

Mav 5, 1975 Tape 2028 (Morning) PK - 5 And I would ask him to withdraw those remarks. HR. SPIMONS: Mr. Speaker, I was making an aside. I respect your ruling. I do not agree with it. I think it was disgraceful what the Premier did. I am not saying your ruling was disgraceful. I do not agree with it. But I think what the Premier did was disgraceful and I stand by that opinion. If the Chair got any suggestion that I was saying that the ruling was disgraceful I withdraw that because that was not the intent. What the Premier did was disgraceful, and I stand by that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will accept the explanation made by the Ron. Member for Hermitage. ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion (4). On motion that the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The City of St. John's Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion (5). On motion that the Hon.

M.inister of Mines and Energy, a bill, ">n Act To Impose Taxes On Income From Mining Operations Within The Province And On Income Obtained Or Derived From Persons Holding Rights To Mine," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 'MR. lUCI(}IAN: Address in Reply. MR. SPEAKER: The Address in Reply I think, if I remember correctly the Hon. Member for Hermitage,! believe,adjourned the Address in Reply last day, He has some twenty-five minutes left to speak. The Hon. Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I understand about twenty-five minutes remain. MR.

SPEAKER: Yes 1about twenty-five minutes. HR. SIMMONS: I understand we are speaking to the amendment made by the Member for Labrador North. It has been so long, ?fr. Speaker, it is difficult to keep track. But the House will recall the :·amendment made by my colleague from Labrador North in which he drew on some wording from,I believe 1 the Anglican Book of Common Prayer or the - 59~0

May 5, 1975 Tape 2028 (Morning) PK - 6 I am not an Anglican - A Common Book of Prayer or - AN RON. MEKBER: I_naudible. MR. SIMMONS: - everybody knows what I mean anyway. MR. F . ROWE: Iain a good old Methodist myself. MR.

SIMMONS: And the wording in essence for the benefit of my dear friend the Minister of Industrial Development who was not here but who would appreciate the wording I am sure, is that the Rouse regrets the failure of the government to do the tbings that it - there it is exactly for him - the Rouse regrets the failure of the government to do those things which it ought to have done and further regrets that they have done those things which they ought not to have done. AN RON. MEMBER: Rear : Rear! 5991

May S, 1975 Tape No. 2029 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: I hope, Mr. Speaker, we can interpret that as support for the amendment. MR. DOODY: We will Qave that for our se~arated brother. MR. SIMK>NS: Well,I will not- no it is difficult, it is difficult to converse wi~h the member and remain parliamentary under the circumstances. Mr. Speaker, at the time I adjourned the debate I was talking in particular about Rural Development. I had a question which might have answered the matter I had in my mind but as is pretty usual now, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Rural Development very conveniently leaves the House during the question period, as he ~id again this morning. So we are having difficulty getting answers from that particular member. However I shall cover the points I wanted to cover in the question period, and some of them right now.

I was on the subject of funeral homes and mortuaries, call them what you will,and after, outside the House, the minister in a private conversation with me indicated that perhaps I had miscontrued, now I hope I have quoted h:lm correctly because it was a private conversation, not a confidential one,but it was outside the House and I mentioned mortuaries and I was told that I was harping on something that was no longer the case, that this was something that happened in the first part of the Rural Development Programme.

Well I thought I would check my facts beforehand because I recognize that any programme, particularly one such as this which was in some respects experimental, had no clear precedents· to follow, I recognize that some things could get done that might not be within the spirit of the original intent of the programme. Mr.

Speaker, I referred to mortuaries or funeral homes and I mentioned that the government under the Rural Development Authority Programme had lashed out $40,000 to five separate firms, five separate firms, and I was told outside the House that, as I say,I was harping on something that the government had long since stopped doing. Well, Mr. Speaker, I can only go on the information which is supplied to me by the minister's department. And that information~! will show in a minute, contradicts what the minister has told me priviately. You see, Mr.

Speaker, we have had a fair amount of difficul;ty getting information 5992

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2029 NM - 2 from the Department of Rural Development. We can get the brochures. for instance the brochure called, "Rural Development News" dated January 1975 we got one day last week, one day last week, only about three months late, Mr. Speaker. We have no trouble getting the brochures, they are a little behind time but we get them. Now, Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Leader of the Opposition, roped the Minister of Rural Development on December 9, 1974 and asked him for a list of loans made by the Rur•l Development Authority. Now, Mr.

Speaker, other speakers, probably from the other side, will get up and manage to misconstrue this as they did before as to our motives for wanting the list of loans, Well let us state our motives and let them misinterpret them all they want but the point is that this is public information anyway. We were accused earlier in another debate of using the names involved. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a lie. We have never yet mentioned one name, Mr. Speaker, not one name of any - MR. SPKAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The honourable Member for Hermitage is certainly not permitted, or any honourable member for that matter, to use the word lie in referring to - MR. SIMK>NS: Yes, I withdraw that, Mr. Speaker, I think the intent, I want to say it clear, it is not true, it is not true to say that. Because we have not mentioned any names of persons who have the loans. What we want to do as I believe is part of our responsibility.is to examine the list of loans, lllld it is not possible, Mr. Speaker, to do it from a

summary, particularly when the minister tells me that the

summary is not correct. It is not possible to do it unless we have before us the actual list of loans. Well my former colleague here in the House, Mr. Bill Rowe, the Member for White Bay South as he then was, obtained a list in the Spring of 1973 from the minister and so in December my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, wrote a letter requesting an updated list and the minister writes my colleague three and a half months later - AN HON. MEMBER: Three months. 5998

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2029 NM - 3 MR. S IMM'.>NS : - three months later on March 20 and says, the current list which is attached supplies the information which you requested, And of course what my colleague requested was a list of individual firms which had been granted loans. What the minister attached was not that at all but a table, a

summary of loans by category, food processing ten; handicrafts - twenty-three and so on and so forth, just a categorization. So he did not supply the information. We have been trying to get it for a year and we cannot get it, Mr. Speaker. They will not give us what is public information. We cannot get it. Oh the minister has told us in the House that he will give it to us,but he has managed to dodge the issue or otherwise avoid giving it to us. So in a way we still do ·not have that list that we first requested last Fall and that was formally requested in a letter, December 9, nearly six months ago now, Mr.

Speaker. It is six months ago, almost to the day and the minister has still withheld the information, the same kind of inforamation that he gave to us a year before. I can only assume, Hr. Speaker, that he did not particularly like tne sequence of events which followed on our getting the information the first time. He did not particularly like the way we exposed some of the things his authority, his Rural Development Authority was doing. However, Hr.

Speaker, as you say it is a ill wind and when I look at the table that he did send my colleague the Leader of the Opposition, the table reveals some information that is pertinent to the point I was making a moment ago about funeral homes. This is a summarization of loans and grants completed for the period up to October 31, 1974 and under that it shows mortuary: four firms, total loans - $34,000, four firms. Now, Mr. Speaker, the document called Rural Development Loans, dated January 1975 under mortuaries shows five firms - $40,000.

So unless the minister is giving us false information, you can only assume that if there were four in October and five in January, that the fifth one, the fifth firm was awarded a loan of approximately $6,000 since October 1974. Mr. Speaker, that is in spite of the fact that I have been assured privately that this kind of thing is not going on anymore. They are not doing 5994

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2029 NM - 4 that kind of thing anymore. Well I have the evidence there from the minister's own information which he supplied us, that it has happened in the last six months, that that kind of loan is still being made, Now, Mr. Speaker, look I cannot get uptight or I cannot lose sleep about Whether they give $5,000 or $6,000 or loan $5,000 or $6,000 to a fellow in the funeral ha11e business, but I can get uptight, Mr.

Speaker, if in the process people who have good sound proposals for developing rural Newfoundland are getting turned down, and being told that their proposal does not qualify because it is not within the areas that have been spelled out in literature, not within the areas of resource based industries • I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that buying equipment to transport pulpwood to the Linerboard Mill or to Grand Falls, I suggest that the transportation of that resource can be argued as a resoo~ce based industry an awful lot easier than arguing that a funeral hame is a resource based industry.

And then we could go on to the manufacturing and processing industries and I can give the minister a number of examples of where people who have applied with proposals clearly in that category 1 manufacturing and processing industries, have been turned down while we have this nonsense going on here. Funeral homes, I cannot find the other one I have in mind but it is certainly here, and beauty parlors, I cannot see them now, they are probably hidden away in a particular category but loans have been given for beauty parlors.

I have nothing against beauty parlors or funeral homes, I may get to use both services before it is all over, but I do not think - MR.. NEARY: Which one first? That is the important thing. Mil~ SIMMONS: Perhaps both at the same time, but, Mr. Speaker, 599::,

May 5-, 1975 Tape no • 2030 Page 1 - mw But, Kr. Speaker, while I have nothing against these enterprises I cannot see that they should take priority over some others that I know. I aan give the minister a list as long as that of applications that have been rejected. Now if they have been rejected it is because the people concerned are not sound risks. That is another matter. Tell them that.

But to tell them that they have been rejected because they do not fall into one of the categories, the category of resource based industries, the category of manufacturing and processing industries, the category of service industries related to the first two I have '.; mentioned or the category of tourist based enterprises, to tell people they are turned down because they do not fall into one of these categories and then to continue giving loans to funeral homes and beauty parlors is a slap in the face to these people.

And it is their money really, their tax dollars that is involved in that Rural Development Authority. And the minister owes it to these people and other people thougbout this Province whose tax money is being used, he owes it to them to come clean with them to give them a better explanation: to see that the progranme is serving the needs of rural Newfoundland to the extent that it was supposed to. Kr.

Speaker, I repeat what I said sometime ago in talking about this matter> some months ago, first when I spoke, I believe, the f!rst or second time I spoke in this House, and I repeat: the Rural Development Authority is unquestionably a flop. It is a flop because it is not doing the many things that it could have done. When I first heard about the progr8111De I bad high hopes for it because it was at least, in theory going to address itself to ,ihe problems of rural Newfoundland, Now, Mr. Speaker, time does not permit me to get into the - ·AN HON • MEMBER: There is no quorum. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, what I am saying is so world shakingly important that I should, at least, have a quorum in the House. Could we have a quorum ~all please? 5996

May 5, 1975 Tape no • 2030 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: We do not have enough to fill up a punt here now, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Mr, Dunphy): There is no quorum. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the tillle is up. I would move, Sir, that the House adjourn. MR. MARSHALL: You do not do that. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy): The honourable gentleman I do not believe is in order in saying that the time is up. MR. NEARY: Your Honour has to count the House. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy): The time is five minutes. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, it is three minutes, Your Honour, MR.. SPEAKER (Mr, Dunphz): The three minutes is not up.

Would the clerk please count the House? We do have a quorum, MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphz): The Hon. Member for Hennitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to come to another matter before I leave the Rural Development Authority. It is a· question I wanted to ask the minister during the question period but he was not in his seat.

I have before me a letter, a copy of a letter which the minister received from a gentleman in the Eastport area, a gentleman who, I understand from talking to people who know the business that I am going to refer to, the business of greenhouse production, a gentleuan who had a very viable proposal. Mr. Speaker, you would not believe the runaround this man has gotten. I have some of the correspondence here. You would not believe the runaround this man has gotten.

If I had time I would go into the matter, I do not,but I just want to say for the record that I have here part of a file on a man who had, what I am told, and I am no expert in this area but I did check with some people who know, I am told it is a very viable proposal. And while he cannot get to first base, Mr. Speaker, on that kind of thing, we have all this rushing out to approve some more funeral homes. In case the minister did not hear what I say on the subject of funeral homes, there has been an approval,according to the iii.formation I have,within the past five to six months.

And I have demonstrated to the House, Mr. Speaker - 599·1

:1ay 5, 1975 Tape no. 2030 Page 3 - mw MR. REID: {Inaudible) • MR. SIMMONS : - Mr. Speaker, the minister was not here for the question period. I do not why he tends to leave every day, But he would have had an opportunity then to answer the question. He was not her .e so let him stay quiet until - or he can speak, of course, after I am through. MR. NEARY: MR. S0010NS: And get there and present your petition, boy, One other matter, Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Dunphy~: Order, please: I would like to remind honourable gentlemen to my left and to my right that when another honourable gentleman is speaking, he has the right to be heard in silence. This certainly applies to both sides of the House. I would like to see that you follow this rule. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to come to one other matter in speaking to the amendment about what the government has not done that it should have done and so on. I have heard a fair amount in the past few months about how this government has been the saviour of Newfoundland in terms of minimum wages.

And they have bragged, Mr. Speaker, about how they have raised the minimum wage up to $2.20 an hour. Mr. Speaker, I believe everybody recognizes that to fully appreciate whether $2.20 is very much an achievement you r,ot to look at it in relation to what has been happening elsewhere in the country. Now if you go back to day one in the new regime, if you go hack to late 1971, you will find that Newfoundland ranked with two other provinces as having the lowest minimum wage in Canada.

Three provinces at that time had a wage of $1.25 an hour, I am not going to get into right now the matter of the difference between male and female. That is another issue. For the record the female at that time was $1.00 an hour. I want to address myself to the basic rate of $1.25 an hour in Newfoundland, New Brunswick and P. E. I • Now, Mr. Speaker, while the rate has gone from $1.25 to $2.25 in that particular time

May 5, 1975 Tape no. 2030 Page 4 - mw from 1971 to the present time, we still find that Newfoundland in 1975 is ranking second lowest among the provinces. In 1971 it ranked with two others as having the lowest minimum wage. Today it still has the second lowest minimum wage in Canada. The only one being lower is P.E.I. with $2.05 compared to our $2.20. We are lower than every other province in Canada. To say it another way, Mr. Speaker, in 1971 Newfoundland was forty cents below the highest province. The highest provinces in 1971, Ontario and Manitoba, had a minimum wage of $1.65.

The highest province now is Alberta and also the Northwest Territories with $2.50. In Newfoundland in 1971 we were forty cents below the highest minimum wage. Today in 1975 we are thirty cents below. Despite all the boasting, all the bragging, Mr. Speaker, about what this govermnent has done, we are still only ten cents better off in terms of minimum wages than we were when this governnent took over, ten cents relative to the other provinces, Mr. Speaker. MR. COLLINS: It has doubled, MR. SIMMONS: The increase, Mr. Speaker - yes, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture has obviously missed the whole argument.

Of course, you have doubled it, Mr. Speaker. But if the other parts of the country are moving ahead at a faster clip then relatively speaking you are no better off. Yes, you did double it almost from $1.25 to $2.20. But while the govermnent was doing that every other province in Canada was doing at least that and as the record shows better in most cases. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, the increase in the minimum wage is not nearly as dramatic as the Tory suggests. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, at best it can be argued, at best it can be argued that we are keeping pace. 599~

~ay 5, 1975 Tape 2030 (. Morning) PIC - 5 You have to stress the point to even indicate that ve are keeping pace wi.th the other parts of canada. ~r. Speaker, the amendment moved by my col.league froa I.abrader North is one I believe that deserves the support of every member of this particular Rouse, because no one is so well aware of the ma~itude of the government' e failures as people who sit in this House everyday and see how they managed to bungle just about every matter that they have to c0111e to grips with.

J talked on Friday about the sawm:llling I did not get un­ fortunately much of an answer from the Minister of Forestry on that particular matter. I ha~e again this morning been talking to the Bay D'tspoir Development Association, and they are still waiting patiently, Mr. Speaker, for that contact. Now, Hr. Speaker, I do not want to make a political football out of that particular issue, but I would urge the m:Lnister to do something to help sort out that matter, not that he suggest or tries to suggest, it is not a matter of being against the other enterprise that is going ahead there.

That is not the question, Kr. Speaker. If government brings in a large enterprise and in the process frustrates every small enterprise there is little gain. And I say the challenge to the m:Lnister is not just to encourage the development of large enterprises. The challenge to him and his government is to see to it that the two can e:cf.et side 'hy side successfully. And I have said to him privately and in the House that there is a lot of frustration - I am using that general term, I could get more specific - but there is a lot of frustration among the small sawmill operators in that particular area.

And the frustration has not been sorted out. I have taken some initiatives. I have ~rought it to the minister's at~ention. I have been assured by him that something is being done. And as of 10:30 this morning the Development Association once again is waiting for the first initative from the government on this particular matter. Now as I say I do not want to make a political football of it, but I would like to see the matter sorted out because a number of jobs are affected there, men who cut logs for these sawmill operations. GOuO

May 5, 1975 Tape 2030 (Morning) PK - 6 I believe, Mr. Speaker, my time must have run out. I bad - MR. THOMS: .MR. SIMMONS: You have about six. minutes, - ob very good. I thought I was getting a signal from Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I hope while we are on this amendment that I will get some response from the Minister of Rural Development on the matters I have raised. I hope I will get some from the Minister of Forestry. I did get some the other day but I do not think it was particularly pertinent to the subject I h ave raised.

I have a very real conc ern about the matter 1 have raised and I would hope that he will see fit to get the thing moving on behalf of the people in the Bay D'Espoir Area. 6001

'fav 5, I 975, Tape 2031, Page 1 - apb lfR. SPEAKER: "!R. ROBERTS: The honourable the Leader of the Op-position. Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable gentieman. Is there a page around this morning, Sir? Perliaps I could trouble one of the gentlemen at the table. Sir, to find me a 'l)llge or perhaps get me a glass of water, whichever is the easier. Well, Mr. Speaker, since nobody on the ga11ernment side seems inclined to soeak, I thought the honourable gentleman from St •.

John's East was going to say a few words, he stooit in his nlace but anparently he thou~ht better of it and went off, I guess, to consult his conscience on the 6nibuds11181\ Resolution.which we will doubtless get an opportunity to discuss a little later. There are. Mr. Sneaker, a few things I would like to !;av with resnect to this amendment, and let me be,:in by saying it will surprise nobody ~ncluding Your Honour or any member of the Rouse - that I intend to vote in favour of the mnendment.

The amendntent is that the traditional words, or the words before the llouse, the motion before the House is that the following resolution or Address in Renlv be presented to his Honour the Lieutenant - Governor - the amendment before the House, Sir, is to strike those words and renlace them with the following: That this Honse _regrets the failure of the government to do those things which they ou&bt to have done and further regrets that they have done those things which they our;ht not to have done. MR. EVANS: You fellows. ~-_RQ_Rf. _RTS: It does not include, Sir. MR. SPEAKRR (Dunnhy): Order, nlease '. MR.

ROBf!lTS. It does not include, Sir, for the benefit of ------- honourable gentlemen opposite who may not be familiar with the Book of Counnon Prayer which is - I am not sure whether it is one of the collects of the General Confession, a request for absolution - but the Book of Comr:ton Praver as I recall the words,uses words much like these as part of that Confession then adds to it,'and there is no health in us.' Ue could have used those other words but the gentleman from Labrador - 6002

,, . May 5, 1975, Tape 2031, Page 2 -- apb MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) ----- MR. ROBERTS : Now, Mr. Speaker, let me right at the start say that either the gentleman from Burgeo is going to observe the rules of the House as best he knows them or he and I will have a running, not a feud, a running crossfire. Now, Sir, I would ask Your Honour to state clearly the rule which Your Honour has stated and which the other men in the Chair have stated, that a member speaking has the right to speak without interruption from any other gentleman in the House.

I say that if the gentleman from Burgeo chooses to disregard that rule I would invite Your Honour to use the normal and appropriate procedure and that is if he persists in it, to name him. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS : ---·--- Now, Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman when he speaks has the right to be heard in silence. Order, please! Order, please! The point which the honourable member for White Bay North has made is well taken by the Chair. I would like to inform all honourable members that the Chair is capable of keeping order and certainly will impose the rules as they are, suffice it to say. MR.

ROBERTS: I thank Your Honour and I have not the least ------ doubt Your Honour will enforce the rules. I did not mean to imply Your Honour would not I just wanted to be sure the gentleman from Burgeo realizes that. ~_:_ EVANS: Do not make any reference to me. MR. ROBERTS: Sir, whether I make reference to the gentleman from Burgeo or not,- MR. SPEAKER (Dunphy): Order, please! MR.

ROBERTS: - is a matter for the rules of the debate and the gentleman from Burgeo would be well advised to learn that the rules of debate say that even if he is referred to - I met a number of his constituents on the weekend, they were up in Stephenville at 600J

May 5, 1Q75, Tape 2031, Page 3 -- apb a rallv, a re-union for the Royal Navy, and they made reference to the honourable J!:entleman. I am not allowed to say exactly what thev referred to him as, Sir, because that would be beyond any shadow of a doubt, unparliamentary, Now, Mr. Sl)eaker, the motion is, or the amendment, the motion now before the House is that the J!:OVenunent have not done those thing which they ought to have done and further regrets that they have done those things which they ought not to have done.

I propose to speak first to the second l)art of that motion, to talk ahout iust a few of the thin11:s which the government ought t<> have done - sorry! those thing which they ought not to have done which in fact the y have done . Now let me start with the curious case of the Norma and Gladvs , and let me say that I regret that the Minister of Tourism haR found things more imoortant than the Rouse of Assembly. But let me say that what I am about to say is factually correct.

I have no hesitation in advancing the facts which I have,and the facts which I have in mv Possession and which I will reveal to the Committee, or to the Rouse, I am sorry, Sir, reveal quite clearly that the Minister of Tourism misled the Rouse, Re has consistently misled the House and just as consistently misled the public of Newfoundland with the truth with respect to the Norma and Gladys. Your Honour has noted, I have no doubt, that I did not say deliberately misled. I am not allowed to say that and so I do not sav it.

But I do say that the House and the people have been misled with respect to the Norma and Gladys. I only have ninety minutes and that will but enable me to scratch the long catalogue of sins of ommission and co1TUT1ission of which this administration are guilty. But at the head of that list, Sir, has to be the Norma and Gladys. MR. EVANS: - •- -·-- Are you jealous? MR. ROBERTS: - -- -- ·-- Now, Sir, the kindest thing I can hope for the gentleman from Burgeo is that he is the sole crew member on the Norma and Gladys when she sinks. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me just look at one or two or three 6004

May 5, 1975, Tape 2032, Page/ -- apb of the aspects of the curious case of the Norma and Gladys. First of all, Mr. Speaker, let us look at the question of federal and provincial contributions. The honourable the Minister of Tourism on a number of occasions has said that almost all of the cost is to be paid by the r.overnment of Canada. That, Sir, is incorrect. I do not cal\ it a lie. I am not allowed to call it a lie but I would say, Sir, that it is misleading in the extreme.

It is flatly incorrect and I would urge that if the Minister of Tourism is anywhere around, that he at least listen to what I am saying and let him contradict it at his peril. Because the facts, Sir, are directly contrary to that which the Minister of Tourism - here he comes. Now let him come into the House and hear because he has misled this House, Mr. Speaker, consistently and constantly. Now, Sir, there are two separate headings under which the cost of the Norma and Gladys can be assessed.

The first is the cost of purchasing the vessel from her then owner, Captain Kean and restoring her and refurbishing her and fitting her out as a muse1D11, the original purpose for which she was purchased. Sir, the total cost as of a current date for that is approximately $231,000. That is what it cost to buy ~er, to rebuild her and to fit her out as a muse1D11. That figure may be a few months old, I say as of a current date. But it is certainly at least a quarter of a million dollars that has gone into the Norma and Gladvs. MR. NEARY: ------ The poor old mothers not able to feed their undernourished - MR.

ROBERTS: The mothers, the school boards about to close the schools down, schools without adequate toilet facilities or adequate lighting facilities, school boards that have told the government they are going bankrupt. Liquor store employees on strike, teachers thweatening to work to rule - MR. NEARY: Children undernourished. MR. ROBERTS: - you know, the catalogue is endless but this government have chosen to put a quarter of a million dollars into 60Qt,

May 5, 1975, Tape 2032, Page 2 -- apb purchasing the Norma and Gladys and refurbishing it. MR. EVANS : MR. ROBERTS: - - ----- Row much did it cost to pay Albert Martin? Now, Mr. Speaker, nobody, including the Minister of Tourism has yet had the courage to tell the people of Newfoundland that fact and there is more to come. But that is the cost of purchasing it, Sir, $18,000 was spent to purchase it. $18,000 of which every cent came from Ottawa through the National Museums of Canada which is Crown Corporation under the direction of Mr.

Bernard Ostrey, reporting to the Secretary of State, the honourable Rugh Faulkner. $18,000 to purchase her. The Minister of Rehabilitation was the Minister of Tourism at the time and there is an extract here from the Hansard - MR._N~RY: MR, ROBERTS : - ------ She is not even a real banker, by the way. No, she is not a real banker. The extract from the ltansard for March 27, as supplied courtesy Cabot Group 4, and we will have a lot to say about that curious collection of entrepreneurs, said it was $18,000 and the honourable Member for Ferryland was gracious enough to say that the money for that came from Ottawa.

Well that was correct. It is too bad the Minister of Recreation is not still the Minister of Tourism. We might then have had something approaching the truth instead of the situation we now have. So, Sir, the total cost to date, or as of a current ~A~~ - this may be several months old, the date as of which this money is applicable - the total cost was $231,178, Of that, Sir, the federal government have contributed $131,178. The provincial govern ment have made available approximately $100,000, MR. NEARY: - -- · - -- -- MR.

ROBERTS: ------ Just about the price of Newfoundland's - Approximately $100,000 from the Government of Newfoundland has gone into her just to rebuild her and to refurbish her. Not the cost of purchase, that was entirely provided by Ottawa. So in other words, Sir, if we subtract the cost of purchase $18,000 we find that the provincial government has provided to date 600ti

May 5, 1975, Tape 2032, Page 3 -- apb approximately $100,000 and if there is more spent on her they will have to spend it. The federal government have provided approximately $113,900, near enough to fifty-fifty. I have not whipped out my handy-dandy little pocket calculator but it is near enough to about fifty-two per cent federal, forty-eight per cent provincial. Near enough to fifty-fifty, Sir. And the Minister of Tourism has said time and time again, time and time again that Ottawa are paying more.

Let me 1ust read a lovely little cutting - I was called intellectually bankrupt hv the minister - that is like the inmate of a brothel calling someobdy tmchaste, Sir. The minister said in the Telegram on April 26, "Mr. Hickey said that while Mr. Robertr; said the vessel had not been designed for deep sea, the Norma and Gladys had fished on the Grand Banks for four years " -Maybe she did, mavbe she did not­ "Adding that the vessel had been restored from the waterline up at a cost of $225,000 of wt\ich the federal government' "paid more than three to one." ' Now anybody reading that, Mr.

Speaker, would believe that it means what it says, that out of the total cost of $225,000 Ottawa had paid approximately three-fourths. But, Sir, the facts do not support the minister's statement. The minister's statement was misleading, inaccurate and a nmnber of other things which I am not allowed to say because they are not parliamentary. But the fact remains that the only part that was even close to being accurate was he said $225,000, the actual figure was $231,178, as has been given to me. So in other words, Mr. Speaker, o·n that count the minister has struck out.

Three strikes, no balls, a lot of errors and he is out of the game. Now then, Mr. Speaker, let us look at the next item in the curious saga of the expenditures on the Norma and Gladys, this by a government that used to talk of priorities and planning and used to talk of getting good value for money. And it has told hospitals in Central Newfoundland and in Labrador ·and on the Northern Peninsula and elsewhere throughout the Province that they cannot have the money they need to operate even at current levels, and can afford to fling

May 5, 1975, Tape 2032, Page 4 -- apb out $100,000 against $112,000 coming from Ottawa and then try to pretend it is three to one Ottawa money. Let us look at the operational costs. There, Sir, the figure is a little better. It is still not three to one. It is costing the Province about $20,000 a year for operational costs to the Norma and Gladys. MR. DOODY: -- - -- MR. SPEAKER: ---- - MR. ROBERTS: It does not go down - (Inaudible.) Order, please! It is costing about $20,000 a year for operational costs to the Norma and Gladvs to the Province.

Last year Ottawa paid $34,560 towards the cost of operating the Norma and Gladys, $34,560. This year the Ottawa estimate is $44,000 from them and approximately $20,000 from the Province . In other words, two to one from Ottawa but still costing us $20,000 a year. MR. NEARY: Where was the salary to last year? MR. _R.Q.B_E~RTS: That is seventy-five - oh well, you know, the cost of fitting her out and the captain is on pay and he has been making nice statements to the newspapers and everything. He is on salary, he is doing very well, Captain Smith and a number of other people. But, Mr.

Speaker - MR. l'IEARY: Look at this. ----- - MR. ROBERTS: My colleague has just passed me a cutting from the Telegram of Monday, March 10. "Poverty Rated Newfoundland The Hi~hest By Far In Canada." And we can look at unemployment, never been higher, prices never been higher and what are the government doing about it? What are the government doing? They are spending $100,000 on fitting out a schooner and then trying to pretend the money is coming from Ottawa. It is incredible, Sir. They must be - 'Nero Fiddled while Rome Burned.' The honourable gentlemen opposite are fitting out while Newfoundland sinks.

But, Sir, there is worse than that on the Norma and Gladys. What I have said so far is just the cost of fitting her out and fixing her up. The government announced the other day that they are going to s end her around the world. We had a great, glorious press conference with a great, glorious kit. It is a marvellous kit, Sir. It has some 6008

May 5, 1975, Tape 2032, Page S -- apb lovely speeches in it, it has an invitation to a Japanese style buffet, it has an exerpt from the verbatim reports of the House of Assembly of Newfoundland, it has the Norma and Gladvs in relation to the Law of the Sea, it has a brief history of the Norma and Gladys, it has a lovely picture of the Canadian Ambassador to Expo and above all, it has the most gorgeous picture I have ever seen of the Minister of Tourism. MR. F. ROWE: MR. NEARY: - - ---- How did they do it? No sailor suit? MR, ROBERTS: No, He is not wearing his sailor suit.

Bobby ---- - Shafto went to sea/ Silver buckles on his knee/ The honourable gentleman does not have silver buckles anywhere. But a gorgeous picture of him, Sir - just, firm, resolute, a man born to command. AN HON. MEMBER: Salt on his cheek. MR. ROBERTS: Born to command, Sir. Tanned by the wind of a thousand voyages across the oceans of the world. Not just two years before the mast, Sir, this man has obviously spent twenty years before the mast. Just to look at him! Why generations of Newfoundland sailors who have gone before and are now at Fiddler's Green, Sir, would be honoured to have such a man.

Nelson could stand aside and instead of saying, 'Kiss me hardy' which were Nelson's dying words, he would have said, 'Kiss me Hickey' if he had realized the honourable gentleman would show up like this in a picture. AN HON. MEMBER: Is he a cabin boy or what? MR, ROBERTS: Oh no: I have no doubt he is going on her. Re may go as 6009

May 5, 1Q75 Tape 2033 (morning) IB-1 the minister, Sir, but he will come back in the bilges. But now, Mr. Speaker, this voyage - the minister has been noticeably reluctant to give any information about its cost. I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker. Recause he is ashamed at how much he has committed the Government of Newfoundland to. The voyage, Sir, is estimated to cost, the Norma And gadys around the world, it is estimated to cost $294,000, nearly $300, n0n. That is going to be the cost of the Norma And Gladys going around the world. Now, obviously Ottawa is going to pay all of that. Is it?

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: According to the minister. MR. ROBEPTS: According to the minister - that is the impression he has given - that Ottawa is going to pay it all. Well, Sir, the truth is that Ottawa is going to pay $80,000. That is what the Department of External Affairs tell me. I picked up the little telephone and I rang them. They tell me that their commitment is to pay $80,000. That the balance, whatever it may be - it is now estimated at $214,000 - hut whatever it may be, Sir, the Province has to pay.

So, the saga of the Norma And Gladys is that it is costing us $20,000 a year for her in addition to $40,000 or $45,000 from Ottawa. It has cost us ~1nn,~oo to rebuild and refurnish her, and it is going to cost us, . thr. people of Newfoundland, $220,000 to send her around the world. That is if she makes it. MP. NEARY: That is $340,'100. MR. ROHER'IS: That is $340,000 lashed out by the Minister of Tourism. Now, Sir, what I have said is factually correct.

If there are receptions, if the minister and his picture has the local ladies and gentlemen down in Okinawa or in all the places she is going to be - she is going to be in a number of interesting places in theory. Wait until I find that list. There is a great list here - the Straits of Canso, Boston, New York, the Panama Canal, San Francisco, Honolulu, Yokohama, Okinawa, Singapore, Aden, the Suez Canal, Greeee, Italy, Francr., Spain, Portugal, Germany, Great Britian and then back to St. John's. The cheers, they will be lining the Narrows• Mr. Speaker!

It will be like-better than ever it was when the sealers came in fifty and 1()0 years . ago. The people will be lining right on both sides of 60i0

May 5, 1975 Tape 2033 (morning) the Narrows, Sir, all up and down the harbour. Why the government could sell tickets to get to see the NoI111a and Gladys come back in with the minis~er at the wheel. I can just see her now, ~utinv On The Bounty, part two. MR. NEARY: In his grass skirt. Ill-2 MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, if there are receptions during that extensive tour, Ottawa may or may not pay part of the cost of them. That has not been worked out. But, they may or may not.

It may be that the minister's grog parties - grog is the naval thing, is it not - the minister's grog parties will be entirely on the Province or it may be that he will be able to inveigle the generous and trusting Government of Canada to pay part of the shot. MR. NEARY: I do not think. Not after today they will not. MR. ROBERTS: But, Sir, to date, and the receptions are not included in the cost of $294,000. I do not understand where that figure is coming from.

My colleague here has sailed many a vessel back and forth to Chidley and down to the Caribbean I~land, around the Straits of Fogo Island and other places of danger and bravery. I mean, the ship is only worth - she cost $18,000 to buy. That is all that Charlie Kean figured she was worth. That is all he paid for her and he had twenty years use out of her. But, how would they spend ~300,000 to send her around the world? MR. EVANS: Rave you not ever heard of inflation? MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman asks me if I have heard of inflation, Sir. I do not know if the Premier heard those figures.

I do not know if he has ever been told about them. But, out of the $80,000 or Ottawa kicking in $80,000, roughly $215,000 from the Province. Now, what are people around Newfoundland going to say. What are they going to think? The school boards have sent word they want to see the Premier. They are on the verge of bankruptcy. But, we have got $215,000 to lash out to send the Norma And Gladys around the world. The hospitals are having difficulty in paying their present level of services. Rut, we have got $215,000 to send the Norma And Gladys around the world, You 6011

Nay 5, 1975 Tape 2033 (morning) IB-3 know, it beggars description. The Minister of Tourism has long been noted for his inability to come to grips with his ministerial responsibilities. But, Sir, this is a new low. Then to add insult to injury, the minister in his statement to the Evening Telegram said, and I quote the newspaper, Sir, in fact he, the minister, said, the decision to engage Mr. Brown's C0111J>any was a co-ordinated effort between a staff member of the External Affairs Department and a member of ~r. Hickey's staff.

The entire cost ;which he said he does not know,is to be borne by the federal government. Sir, I cannot call that a lie. If I could, I would. It is completely and totally incorrect. The decision to hire Mr. Joseph Brown or his firm, Cabot Group 4 Limited was entirely a provincial decision. Whatever payment may have been made or may have been agreed to be made to Mr. Brown and his company is entirely the responsiblity of the government of the Province, every nickle. Whatever they have gotten out of the government, will be entirely out of our treasury. The department at Ottawa paid part of the Japanese buffet.

They did go that far, Sir. If we had some sukiyaki they paid for the suki part and the government paid for the yaka part. But, Sir, they p~id nothing at all towards Mr. Joseph Brown and the cost of the press conference, whatever that may be. It is obviously substantial, Sir. We have a lovely brochure, a lovely brochure here. As I said, we have lovely things in it including above all - that should have been eight by ten, Sir. I do not understand. Indeed, what about we have a large one blown up for campaign rallies? MR. NEARY: The size of this one up here. MR. ROBERTS: Oh no.

It should be far larger than any of the men who have ever been Speaker. Maybe we should have rented a billboard for the Minister of Tourism, and it should have- been in glowing, living colour, not in - I mean, I resent, as a citizen of the Province - MR. NEARY: He has it up in Honolulu, Singapore - MR. ROBERTS: There was a meeting in Little Hooping Harbour last week. A strange thing because there are no people living there. But, in ~ittle Hooping Harliour, Sir, there was a meeting and they passed a resolution 60l2

May 5, 1975 Tape 2033 (morning) IB-4 of regret that the Minister of Tourism had not seen fit to have his picture put out in colour, living colour, glorious technicolor. Better still, Your Honour may remember the old fashioned 3-D where you would wear special glasses, Sir? That is what the minister should have done because one needs special glasses to understand this government and the Norma And Gladys, Of all the ridiculous things that any government has ever done! The Almighty knows that governments have done some strange things in this country, Sir. MR. EVANS: You should know. MR. ROBERTS: But this, Mr.

Speaker, this is about the strangest. I appeal to the honourable gentlemen opposite to come to their senses before it is too late and to call her off, admit she is not seaworthy. 'Whether she is or not, admit it. Say she is, and nobody will quarrel with it. Then let the honourable Minister of Tourism get back to his business of ~rying to promote tourism and not trying to promote himself. $80,000 from Ottawa, $215,000 from Newfoundland, $100,000 from Newfoundland and another $130,000 from Ottawa, and the minister trying to pretend, oh, it is okay, Ottawa is paying the shot.

Sir, it is a shoddy performance by the minister. Then we come to Cabot Group~ Limited, a marvellous little company, a company, Sir, that got the contract to do this marvellous brochure, a marvellous, marvellous thing, Sir. They did not get it on public tenders. There was no invitation for a proposal for this. We invit• proposals to landscape the rectory down hrre, the St. Thomas's rectory, but nobody invited proposals to put together this particular - that is not parliamentary - this particular example of the public relations man's art. So, I got a little curious, Sir, about this Cabot Group 4.

They were the ones asked people to the press conference, a letter April 10. J.O. Brown, general manager, Public relations and consultants, artistic designs, importers and exporters - I wonder what they are importing. I know what they are exporting. Money. I wonder what they are importing. Jt is interesting that they have an office in the Center Building. I must have a word now. My father owns the Center Building. I must have a word to make sure this crowd 60L1

M;iy 5, 1975 Tape 2033 (moming) IB-5 pay their rent in advance. Mr;. Speaker, Cabot Group 4 Limited were the people who invited the press to this conference. The Iliforma .tlon Services an not adequate. We are lashing out $50,000 or $100, .000 a year for Mr. Butler in the Info1'111$tion Services down here on _the main floor of the building, but they are not adequate to do this job. _AN HONOURABLE MEMBER:_ About $250,000. _MR. ROBERTS: About $250,000, is it, including the te].eprinters and all that thing. Well, they were not adequate to do it.

The governe1m:t out of their own money and on their own decision bad to go end hire Cabot Group 4 Limited. So, naturally, Sir, I got interested. There must he something to Cabot Group 4 Limited. They must have pretty powerful appeal for nobody had eve.r heard of th_en,, They were brand •new. One of the reasons they were brand new was that their incorporation was only Hled on January 21; 1975. It is down in the registry, Sir. Your Ronour could look it up or ali.ybody could look it up. It is COIIIP&nY nwaber 7952. The regist .ered office is 6014

May 5, 1975 Tape 2034 (Morning) is P.O. Box 7337, the Centre Building Church Hill, the same as on their letterhead. They list their objects of business as being PK - 1 general advertising and publicity business. They have become importers and exporters since then according to their letterhead. There are no directors listed. Because as Your Honour knows the law does not require that information to be filed for a year or so. So there are no directors listed. The solicitors are the well known firm of Marshall, White, Ottenheimer and Green - solicitors for the firm, as of record.

I mean, I have no doubt they are doing it legally and in the course of their business in incorporating companies. The shareholders, each of whom has one share, Sir: ~r. George Murphy who lists 1.is address as 37 Richmond Street, St. John's, Artist; Mr. Fraser Lush, Victoria Cove, Gander Bay. he used to he executive assistant to the Minister of Forestry, he now is, was formerly employee by the Tory Government, who will probably be running as a Tory candidate; and then Mr. Howard Crane, 24 Memorial Drive, Gander - Mr. Howard Crane - AN HON. MEMBER: President of the P.C. Association. MR.

ROBERTS: Right he is President of P.C. Association out there, from time to time. He is the Imperial Oil agency at the airport. Imperial Oil have a hand in many, many pots. They have the honourable gentleman for Labrador North, and they have Mr. Howard Crane. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: He is a fine man. He is a fine man. He is an outstanding man. He is an outstanding man, and a well known Tory, and now he is branching out, and lo and behold, he and Mr. Fraser Lush have got together with Mr. George Murphy and they decided to incorporate a company and that company decided to hire Mr.

J. O. Brown, Mr. Joseph Brown who lo and behold suddenly gets a colDlllission and the c0111111ission is from the Department of Tourism of which the - honourable Member for St. John's East Extern is mini.ster. Now I do not know what you read into it, Your Honour, but a lot of people read a lot into the facts thst this Mr. Joseph Brown either now or formerly lives with the Minister of Tourism. They share an apartment in Elizabeth Towers. He is a Nova Scotian, formerly eaployed by Mr. George MacLean of fame or infamy. It is amazing how all 601ti

May 5, 1975 Tape 2034 (Morning) PK - 2 the web, the tentacles keep coming back, Sir, and they interlock. I am told that Mr. Joseph Browne and his company have been much favoured by this administration. '!'he Coordinator of the Silver Anniversary Celebrations 1Mr. Robert Nutbeem,I am told gave them a $9,000 contract to advise him, Mr. Nutbeem who to write his report. I am told there is a $16,000 contract for ho.tels, a study on hotels in N~oundland given to this same firm. I am told they are working on road maps. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: I understand they have got some contracts to print, and the Public Accounts Committee will be well advised to look carefully into the Tourism Department contracts this year. They were called twice, Sir. They were called twice. A very unusual set of proceedings - very unusual ~o say the least. And we have heard no explanation. There can be no explanation except the truth. "IR. HICKEY: You would not let me. HR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman, Sir, has not spoken in this House. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: He spoke outside the House.

And the statements which he gave to the newspaper, Sir, were tisleading - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. ROBERTS: - inaccurate. MR. S.PGAKER: Order, please: The Hon. Minister of Tourism on a point of order. MR. EI.ICKEY : The honourable gentleman has made a lot of mistakes in the last half hour but let the House record that I attempted to give details on just what he calls this sordid affair,and I was not permitted. Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. The honourable p;entleman was not allowed to speak because he had already spoken. MR. HICKEY: You did not want the truth.

MR. 'ROBERTS: Your Honour I am giving the House the truth and I shall repeat it unless - does Your Honour need to rule on that? I do not thinL there was much of a point of order, Sir, but - l::01~ f"J ..... v

May 5, 1975 Tape 2034 (Morning) PK - 3 'MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The Hon. Minister of Tourism did rise on a point of order, the Chair feels that this is more of a matter of clarification rather than on a point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. The honourable gentleman let him - I say to him now let him reveal the truth. How much is Ottawa contributing to the Norma and Gladys? And how much is the Province contributing? Who owns - who are the true owners of Cabot Group 4 Limited? How come they have been so favoured all of a sudden, out of all the public relations firms in Newfoundland?

A new firm is set up, and the beneficence of the Ministry of Tourism shines upon them. The sun, the sun, the bright shinning sun, Sir, beams forth from the Minister of Tourism onto to Cabot Group 4 Limited. His former roommate. He may still be his roommate. And a firm set up with well-known Tory supporters~ Now I do not mind well known Tories supporting anything, and I do not mind them incorporating firms, but I do find it curious, Sir, that this firm has got so much work without the formality of public tender or even letting - there are many firms in St.

John's that do public relations work, some of them are connected with one party or another, some are connected with no party. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Cabot Group 4 Limited! Sir, Mr. Crane,whatever bis expertise is and he has a great deal of it in his own field, has never in his life donP anything en publicity before. Mr. Fraser Lush edited the Gander Beacon > I think,at one stage. That is as _close as be ever came to being in the P.R. business, And what has be got to do with this firm, be is out in Gander Bay teaching.

Well I will tell you what he has to do - peddling influence, Sir, the worst kind of influence, peddling. And then Mr. Joe Brown who is not even listed as a shareholder but is general manager of the firm according to the firm's own letterhead, a former roommate or a present roommate of the minister, a buddy, a friend, an intimate acquaintance suddenly shows up with the contracts. And on top of that, ··Sir, the minister misleads the House time and time again, consistently and constantly with respect to where the facts come, with respect - MR. HICKEY: Are you questioninF my honour? 6 0 ~ ·1 ' .! .. .I

May 5, 1975 Tape 2034 (Morning) Pk - 4 MR. ROBERTS: I am questioning the honourable gentleman - I am not allowed to question his honour. I am questioning the honourable gentleman's statements. And I am saying they are incorrect. And if I were allowed to call them a lie,I would call them a lie. AN HON. MmIBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: If I was allowed to call them a lie, Sir, I would call them a lie, but I am not allowed to call them a lie and therefore I do not, and that is the only reason I do not. Now, Mr. Speaker, - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman goes outside of the Bouse and he makes statements. I have shown that those statements are incorrect, and I will make them outside or inside. Be has misled the people of Newfoundland on the Norma and Gladys - misled the cost of her, misled who is paying and how much and the total cost.

I say, Sir, when the people of Newfoundland realize this around the world voyage is going to cost the better part of $300,000 of which $220,000 in round numbers is coming from Ottawa, they will rise up and the best thing they can do for Tourism is to send the minister one way,not to Okinawa, we have friendly relations with Japan, how about South Vietnam where we do not have any relations at all. Let the minister go. AN HON. ME}IBER: HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Norma and Gladys AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible; Inaudible. Order, please!

Now, Sir, - Now, Mr. Speaker, so much for the •••• bash your brains in. Oh who is going to bash my brains in? If the minister Inaudible. bashed my brains in, Order, please! Mr. Speaker, he would have far more brains on his hands than he has got in his head. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 6018

May 5, 1975 MR. ROBERTS: HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Now, Sir, - Inaudible. Tape 2034 (Morning) Order, please! ••••• brains. PK - 5 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Hon. Leader of the Opposition may have been getting carried away in the heat of debate. The Chair certainly considers his last few comments with regards to the personality of the Hon. Minister of Tourism to be unparliamentary. I would ask him to withdraw them. MR. ROBERTS: I thank you, Your Honour. I will withdraw them but I will ask Your Honour to ask him to withdraw his coDD11ents because I responded in kind to him.

Would Your Honour ask him to withdraw his coDDllents, please? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, there we ~o row (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair certainly did not, quite honestly say did not hear of what the coDD11ents ma~e by the Hon. Minister of Tourism were. MR. ROBERTS: I am told in fact, Sir, and I thank Your Honour, that the Hon. Minister of Tourism did not say what I thought he had said, so I will apologize to him as well. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, AN HON. MEMBER: challenge you outside of the House. MR.

ROBERTS: He is going to challenge me outside of the House. There is a long queue of honourable gentlemen opposite, Sir, who want to challenge me outside of the House. Let them do it. Now, Sir, let me turn to the honourable gentleman's seat mate who was here earlier b~t must have feared that he would be involved, the Minister of Rural Development. for Rural Development somewhere. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. He is gone. He is probabty looking MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, there is something very strange about the Rural D~velopmant Department, passing strange.

There is what amounts to be a conspiracy to keep silent about the money they are spending, the purposes 6019

Mays. 1975 PK - 6 for which they are spending it, the people to whom they are lending it, and the results which they have obtained. And I think this is a fitting subject for public exposure because it is obvious to me, Sir, that the Minister of Rural Development is hiding something. I do not know what be is hiding. But last year the gentleman for White Bay South, Mr. Rowe, Bill Rowe, wrote a letter to the minister and said could we please have a list of the people to whom loans have been made, and the ndnister in due course sent back the list. Now I know what happened. Re lived to regret it.

I have no doubt that the Premie.r and the Minister of Industrial Development took the Minister of Rural Develop ment to the woodshed and had a little heart to heart talk with him and said in effect, ''Jim" of all the blankety fools you take the cake, do not ever do that again, because - HR. IIORCAN: It embarrassed the people who received the loans. 6020

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2035 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: - it embarrassed the government. I have not heard from one applicant. I say to the gentleuan from Bonavista South, let him produce one letter, from one applicant, dated a year ago and postmarked a year ago - MR. NEARY: Bern Fitzpatrick. MR. ROBERTS: It may have embarrassed Mr. Fitzpatrick, but other than Mr. Bern Fitzpatrick, and the Tory and the Tory Cabinet, I say to the gentleman from Bonavista South, let him produce one letter objecting, saying he was embarrassed, not one. Now, Sir, this year- I have talked to them. AN RON. MEMBER: I have talked to them. MR.

ROBERTS: I have talked to them. I say now publicly, let them send me collect telegrams if they feel that way. Any man in Newfoundland who feels that way let him do it. But this is public money and there is no better place for it to be discussed than in the people's Rouse. This year, Sir, this year the minister refused to table any information. And it leads one to believe that the only reason can be he is hiding something. But of course he is hiding it. We had just a little glimpse of what he is hiding when he was forced in a letter to me dated March 20. to provide a list by category.

And we get such gems as the one to which my friend from Hermitage referred the other day, mortuary business. As of October 31, the information was sent to me on March 20, there were four mortuaries that had been approved, that had loans or grants, we are not told which, at a total of $34,040. Now as of the other day, Sir, when we had a lovely little piece of something sent out by the honourable minister, it does not give a date on i_t, it just says loans approved to date, so let us assume it was a month or two past. We had five mortuaries having been approved, 4.5 jobs for $40,000.

So in other words, sometime between October 31 and the date of this departmental publication we had half a job created, at a cost of about $6,000 in one mortuary. Now, Sir, there is nothing wrong with mortuaries. gentlemen opposite obviously have an interest in them. MR. NEARY: A very dead issue. HonolirablE 602i

May 5. 1975 Tape No, 2035 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS : It is a dead issue. Hut let me point out, Sir, that by making a loan to a mortuary- let us call him an undertaker, I mean let us call a spade a spade and a casket a casket. The basic regulations, and this is a publication produced by the department, Sir, the basic regulations for the Rural Development Authority loans ~pecify, I will read it, "All applicants who are already engaged in or planning to establish or expand on the following types of industries may be eligible for assistance: (

a) Resource based industry." Now, I wonder, Sir, if a mortuary is a resource based industry'! I wonder if the undertaking industry is a resource based industry? If so it qualifies for a loan. Maybe it is a manufacturing or a processing industry. That is another head. MR. T::VAN', : Caskets do not grow. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman says caskets do not grow, no that is· true. The wood from which they are made grows, the caskets do not. Now, Sir, a manufacturing or processing industry. It could be that. It could be said to be a processing industry, Sir. But there is a category which takes in that. (

c) Service industries have all or in part support either (

a) or (

b) above. Maybe that is the justification. Or maybe you will try the final category for which loans may be made - tourist hased enterprises. NOW, let it not be said, Sir, anywhere in this country, from here to Vancouver Island, that we do not make our tourists welcome, S1r. With all the tourist based industries we have, we have the Norma and Glady  and then we have morgues, undertakers, supported by the government. We have newspapers, and the government cut off the loans, the advertisements in The Daily News, because it disagreed with the government editorially. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear!

Hear! 'MR. 'ROBERTS: One honourable gentleman opposite just said hear! Hear! Well that is fine. The government now apparently want to establish their own newspapers. Two, two jobs, or I am sorry, ·3.50 jobs. Now they were $11,492 on October 31, but ss of to date they are, according to their own paper, $12,500. 6022

May 5, 1975 Tape No. 2035 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: One o'clock is it Sir? MR. SPEAKER: It now being one o'clock I now leave the Chair until three o'clock this afternoon. 602:1

May 5, 1975 The House resU111ed at 3:00 P.K. Kr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 2036 (Afternoon) PK -1 MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, vhen ve rose for lunch I bad said a few words about the proceedings of the Rural Development Departllent, and in particular the refusal of the ainister, the honourable gentleman from Labrador South - I am sorry, I am sorry frolil Trinity South- to make public any real information. And that is very true. We have had all sorts of glossy handouts from the minister.

It is true that we have Jl!)t been as yet favoured with a picture of him, but we shall have to take that as, not as read. as least take it as seen. But ve have not been f&110ured with any infor.ation giving details of the Rural Development Authority.

Now in view of the fact that the Auditor General bas been severely critical of the Rural Developaent Authority and has in bis 'IIOSt recent report, a report which the governaent have refused to allow to be debated, and a report which has not been sent to the Public Accounts Ca..i.ttee because the govenment have not aoved to set up the Public Accounts Committee - in viev of the fact that the Auditor General was very, very critical of the adm:lnistration of the Rural Development Authority, he said in one or two cases they had broken the lav, they had ignored the Statutes, they had ignored the regulations adopted by cabinet under authority of _ the Statutes, one would think, Kr.

Speaker, in view of that the minister would be the very first to come into this House and to lay upon the table of the House a great deal of information. But he has not. And he has resisted repeated and renewed requests to make public some information about the Authority. I have written him two or three times. My friend and colleague from Hermitage bas written the minister two or three times, all to the same end: Would the minister make available a list of those to whom loans and grants have been granted and have been lent? Well he vill not 1 Mr. Speaker. he has not , and he will not. Why? ~'ell we d·o not know.

We know that he did so a year ago, so it is hardly a case of setting a precedent. The precedent has been set to the contrary. The precedent is that it is quite in order to make public these loans. 6024

May 5, 1975 Tape 2036 (Afternoon) PK - 2 And then if some honourable member wishes to criticize it that then, Sir, is upon that honourable gentleman's head. And I might add, and I repeat that while honourable gentlemen opposite say that there has been embarrassment caused by virtue of the fact that some names were mentioned in the House, I say that I have heard of no such embarrassment, .• Since I am one of the ones who was accused of having done it, it is reuonable to believe that the gentlemen concerned would have raised some question with me.

And I am quite prepared to say that there has been no such embarrassment caused, because the only names that were mentioned in the debate in this House on the Rural Development Authority - the,,only names that were mentioned, Sir, were - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: ( Yes.) - were those of Tory candidates, former Tory candidates who had got loans. And I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that anybody who runs for the Tory Party in this Province is above embarrassment and cannot be embarrassed and need not be embarrassed.

He may be somewhat discomfitted by virtue of the fact that it is revealed that the Tory Government lent money - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: -lent money on very generous terms, low interest or no interest, long loans so soft as to be soggy, not just soft loans, but soggy loans to former Tory candidates.

And now this year when we enquire whether the minister will make available a list showing the activity in the twelve months since his last list was brought up to date he, Sir, has refused to do this and the obvious conclusion, and I challenge any honourable gentlemen opposite on this point,is that the minister is hiding something and what he is hiding obviously is at very least improper, and may very well go beyond that. Here we have an Authority that was set two or three years ago, great fanfare, staffed by a defeated Tory candidate Mr.

Meade of Hermitage fame, a gentleman of some stature, some ability, unfortunately none of it in the political field, and some other well-known Tory supporters,set up to dole out millions of public dollars. And the first year we get a report as to what 602t;

'lay 5, 1975 Tape 2036 (Afternoon) PK -3 they have done with it, the second year, Sir, we get nothing except the Auditor General's report. And they cannot deny the Auditor General ac