Manitoba Hansard — 21 December 1989 (Sitting 96, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-96

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 21, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROC EEDINGS TABLIN G OF REP ORTS Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr . Speaker, I would like to provide a copy to each of the Op position Parties of the Report on the Brandon General Hospital Peer Review Comm ittee. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Tra ining): Mr . Speaker, I would like to table the Supple mentary Information for Legislative Review for the 19 89-90 Estimates for Man itoba Education and Training.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD * (13 35) Substance Abuse Federal Rehabilitation Funding Mr s. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr . Speaker, it is no wonder that the staff at the Man itoba Health Services Commission sit around and dream up wish list rewards for themselves. It is because they have no faith in this Minister's ability to make decisions and their frustration is showing. Well, so too is ours. On September 28, I asked the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) why Manitoba had not yet signed an agreement with the federal Government as part of the alcohol, drug treatment and reh abilition agre ement.

He replied that it was just a tempor ary program and he was leery of 50-cent dollars. When we proved that he was wrong and it was not a tempor ary program, he agreed they had to negotiate an appropria te prog ram. We have raised it a numb er of times since, and yet we have learned ther e have been no negotiations between this Government and the federal Gov ernment since we first raised the question on the 28th of Septem ber. Mr. Speaker, why is this Minister denying funding to young people, in par ticular, young people who desperately need drug rehab ilition treatment? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr . Speaker, my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Par ty (Mr s. Carstairs), again searches for issues where issues are not readily available to her. Let me deal step by step with the ones that she raised, and I trust that I will have the oppor tunity to reply fully. My honourable friend raises the issue of a survey done at the Manitoba Health Services Commission, Mr. Sp eaker , th at is part of an open ing up of the management process within the Ministry of Health. We are in.

We are trying to work with the people involved in the delivery of health care within tlie ministry to find out what sort of initiatives may be appropriate to assure that people doing an excellent job are rec ognized for delivering that excellent job. Mr . Sp eaker , that is ju st simply plain good management to involve those people who are carrying the freight in the department and to involve them in suggestions to sen ior ma nagement as to how recognition for a job well done might be provided. Mr . Speaker, on the issue of the Youth Drug Program, I will comp lete that answer at my earl iest opportun ity. Mr s.

Car stairs: Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvious where this Minister's priorities are. He is totally unconcerned with ensuring that young people denied treat ment get tr eatment made available to them. Lemay House Federal Rehabilitation Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr . Speaker, Lemay House has an official waiting list of thr ee months. Most agencies do not even make a referral to this youth counselling centre, because they know that they will never make the list.

Tragically, many of these are young women and older women who suffer from a combined addiction as well as the history of sexual and physical abuse. Why will this Minister not access federal funds that have been accessed by alm ost every other province in this nation to ensure that there is a treatment program for these women? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I am very pleased that my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr s. Carstairs), would bring up Lemay House. Mr . Speaker, in 19 83, on Decem ber 21, very close to today's date only six years ago, Mr.

Reg Alcock, the Director of Child and Family Services, approved eight beds at a per diem rate of $30, which did not allow proper staffing patterns. I am pleased to say that as of today with this Government ther e are 12 beds at Lema y House with the appropria te funding to assure that women receive treatment at Lemay House because of action of this Govern ment. * (1 340) Mr s. Ca rstairs: The Minister of Health knows full well that the 12 beds presently functioning are woefully inadequate.

Why will he not access funds from the federal Government to ensure that there are more adolescent treatment beds in the Province of Manitoba? 4019

Thu rsday, December 21, 1989 Mr. Orchard: Mr . Speaker, that is an issue very much in front of Government being discussed with St. Norbert Foundation, other institutions that provide services. Mr. Speaker, how can my honourable friend, the Li bera l Leader , ask ques tions sitting beside the individual who (

a) underfunded, (

b) provided only eight beds of support, which was inadequate six years ago when we moved to resolve that? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! ***** Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honour able Memb er for Osborne, on a point of order . Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): If the Minister would check his facts, he would find that I appro ved the maximum I was able to, unlike the action that this Minister has taken. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Honour able Mem ber does not have a point of order . It is a dispute over the facts. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Health, to finish his answer. Mr.

Orchard: I appreciate my honourable friend who was a servant of the NDP, who follo wed NDP guidelines-a hex on both their houses, Mr . Speaker. We are moving to resolve the probl em with the resources of Government at Lema y House, focused to deliver not eight beds but 12 beds of service treatment, and we will do more, Mr . Speaker. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party will not accept responsibility for the inadequacy of either the NDP or the Tories. Mr. Speaker, this Minister- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Order . The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. Mrs.

Carstairs: The Minister knows full well that Ministers establish policy and civil servants carry it out. Substance Abuse Federal Rehabilitation Funding Mrs. Shar on Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this Minister has refused as a Minister responsible to access funding that is availab le. Why has he consistently refused to access this funding? Why is he doing contrary to what every other Health Minister is doing in this nation and not pr oviding adequate funding for drug rehabilitation, particularly for young people in this nation? Hon. Donald Or cha rd (Min ister of Health): Mr .

Speaker, I am so pleased my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Party, would bring this issue to the House to show the inadequacies that her fellow tr aveller inflicted upon the system under the guidance of the previous administration. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, the Liberal Leader, is absolutely wrong in that I do not care to sign an agreement with the federal Governme nt.

It is exactly because of the issue of Lema y Ho use and other institutions that can and are prepared to deliver youth treatment programs that I have not put before the federal Government a pr oposal to access that funding, because you do not go to the federal Govern ment saying, I am going to do something, give me money. They say, what are you going to do, and you have to have a plan. Mr.

Speaker, in co-operation with the groups who are curr ently involved in outr each, in re sidential treatment, in terms of out-patient services we are working very closely to try and determine which facilities in this pr ovince can adequately deliver a program to which we will access existing federal funds that last for five years. * (1 345) Out-of-Province Treatment Mrs. Shar on Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we are at the present time sending a numb er of adults outside of this province for dr ug rehabilitation treatment.

Can the Minister tell the House toda y if th ere is a disproporti ona te numb er of professional people, doctors, lawyers and judges being sent out of this province because MH SC does not believe they should be tr eated with their clients? Hon. Donald Or chard (Min ister of Health): Mr . Speaker, I fail to catch the last inflection and innuendo in my honourable friend's question -(interject ion)- Yes, from time to time the AFM does refer clients out of province to treatment.

For instance, I believe in the last 18 months to a year we have referred , I believe, five individuals to the White Spr uce Treatment Centre at Yorkton, Saskatchewan. Mr. Speaker, I will have to ask the AFM to provide to me those figures of the doctors, the lawyers, and those other professionals my honourable friend refers to, if they in fact keep their records on the basis of an individual's occupation. I will attempt to provide that to my honourable friend. Compulsory Education Programs Mrs. Shar on Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr .

Speaker, if we are going to control dr ugs in this province, one of the ways in which we must do it is with an effective dr ug education program. Tuning in to Health is not a compulsory program and at the present time only services our eleme ntary school children in any case. Will the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) make a comm itment toda y to work with the Min ister of 4020

Thur sday, December 21, 19 89 Education (Mr . Derkach) to ensure a compulsory dr ug educa tion program in elemen tar y and second ary schools throughout the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health) : Mr . Speaker, no I will not make that commitment today because that is what my colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach), and I have been working on for some several months in terms of the multitude of programs that are available through such service groups as the Lions, in provision of Quest and through the Manitoba High School Athletic Association in their Target program .

Tho se are all programs tha t are available to the students of Manitoba, as I have indicated to my honour able friend, that are available when she stands in the House and says nothing is being done. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend ought to talk to some of the people like Mr , Glimcher and others who deliver very effective programs in the high school system. That is exactly what my honourable friend, the Minister of Education, and myself have been discussing for sometime. Municipal Assessment Act Differential Mill Rate Removal Mr. John Ploh man (Dauphin): Mr .

Sp eaker , the Government is persisting in its effort to ramrod the new Municipal Assessment Act, Bill 79, through this Legislature over the objections of both Opposition Parties in this House and against the interests of the people of Man itoba. In 19 87, our Go vernment introduced a differential mill rate system for the City of Winnipeg to ensure that the banks and major corpora tions downtown did not get a tax break at the expense of homeowners in the City of Winnipeg, Mr . Speaker, and to ma ke sure ther e was a fairer system. Can the Minister of Rural Develop ment (Mr .

Penner) give assurances that this new Act that he is attempting to push through this House before Christmas, which rem oves differential mill rates, will not result in major shifts onto residential homeowners, and can he table the data to support his contention? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development) : I find it rather interesting that the Honourable Memb er for Da uphin and the New Democratic Par ty are indicating that we want to ramrod this Bill through the House.

We had introd uced, I had introduced, this Bill into the House on October 30, put it to second read ing on Novem ber 2, and it was distributed widely. It was distributed widely to all municipalities on Novem ber 2, the same day. We have had extensive consultations with many organ izations across the province. We have had 10 years of consulta tions, 10 ye ars, Mr . Speaker , of consultations on this Bill. However, it is not only those 10 years.

We have met with the Keystone Ag Producers, the Municipal Association, the City of Bra ndon, the Mu nicipality of Elton, the City of Thomps on, the Town of Selkirk, the Town of Melita, the Mun icipality of Brenda, Arthur , Edward , public meetings in Melita, we 4021 met with the R.M. of La Broquerie, Treherne, Manitoba Milk Producers, the Town and R.M. of Swan River, the City of Winnipeg- * (1 350) Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order , please. Impact City of Winnipeg Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, ther e is no data.

On December 12, in a letter, I asked the Minister for comparative data on the City of Winnipeg so that we could get an idea of where the impact would be. I was given only th ree pages, very sketchy information. Why did the Minister provide only limited data on the City of Winnipeg impacts when Mayor Norrie last night said at the committee that the city assessors have all of the data, and they share it comple tely with the Province of Man itoba? Why has he not shared that data with us? What is he hiding and what will be the impact on the inner city residents versus- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please.

The question has been posed. Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): Mr . Speaker, as I said before, we had met with many municipalities as well as the City of Winnipeg. The mayor of the City of Winnipeg last night flew in from Europe, came in from the airport, specifically to urge the committee to get on with the establishment of the legislation indicating clearly that the City of Winnipeg was looking forward to and needed this assessment Bill that they were able to meet the commitments that th ey had made and were order ed to make the reassessment by the year 19 90.

Similarly, we have been urged continually throughout the discussions and the hearings in committee, urged by virtually every comm ittee that met with us and appeared before us, to get on with the Bill and to pass it before the end of the year. That would allow the Department of Educ ation and the Department of Mun icipal Affairs to do the calculations that would give the assessm ent num bers to the Depar tment of Education, as well as allow the Department of Education to announce the funding to the school divisions in this pr ovince. It is important - Mr. Speaker: Order . The Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin. Mr.

Plohman: Mr . Speaker, we do not have blind faith in this Govern ment's competence to ensure fairness for this pr ovince, for the people of Manitoba, and despite the fact that Mayor Norrie flew in, and wants this rushed through, we do not have blind faith in this Govern ment. Can the Minister tell this Legislature whether the province and city have arr ived at their figures based on 19 85 market value or by some formula that is applied against the 19 75 values? If it is marke t value, Mr .

Thur sday, Dece mber 21, 1989 Speaker, why was market val ue left out of this Bill No. 79? Why are inner city homeowners continuing to pay a much larger percentage of the value- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. The question ha s been put. The Honou rable Min ister of Ru ral Development. Mr. Penner : I find it ra ther inter est ing that the Honour able Memb er for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) stands up and spouts figures that are simply not true. They are not correct. It indicates again that he does not know what they are talking about.

We have said continually that this Bill will give fairness and equity finally to people of Manitoba in the taxation of their property, and that is what they have been looking forward to for a long time. We have indicated that ther e will be some 70 percent of people in Manitoba who will benefit positively by this assessment legislation. I stand by those figures, Mr . Speaker. Appeal Process Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the Ottawa figures say that 25 percent to 30 percent of Man itobans are going to be hit hard by this legislation.

He talks about mark et value in his brochu res, and he leaves it out of the Act. I ask this Minister tod ay, will the Minister give a comm itment to this Legislature to meet with experts in the assessment field to ensure that adequate appeal mechanisms are put in place because we have heard before the comm ittee that there are not adequate appeal mechanisms in this legislation? Will he meet , in the time that he has been given by the Opposition to improve this legislation, with them and ensure that there is a fair appeal mechanism put in place in this legislation? Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): The Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin raises two points. I had indicated yesterday in committee our willingness to move an amendment to indicate clearly that we would have a clear definition of mar ket value in the Bill. I stand by that. That is our commitment to indicate to the rest of Man itoba that we have heard them, that we have heard their concerns in the comm ittee. I have also indicated clearly that

Section 13,

Section 41, and

Section 42 deal quite adequately with the issue that the Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) raises, and ther efore I think the legislation that we have presented and put before comm ittee, and as indicated by virtually every organization that we have met with, is good legislation, is fair legislation, and will finally give equity to the people of Man itoba. Some Honoura ble Member s: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. • (1 355) Municipal Assessment Act Informa tional Sessions Mr.

Gilles Roch (Springfield): Several gr oups, including municipal officials, Indian bands, and school board officials, have indicated that they have not received sufficient information on Bill No. 79 in order to properly ana lyze and make appropria te recommenda tions to this very important and comp lex piece of legislation. School boards in particular are concerned th at this Bill not be rushed thro ugh, espe cially since th ey were prom ised information sessions that never materialized. My question is for the Minister of Rural Development.

Why did he refuse to pr ovide th ese promis ed information sessions to the school divisions? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): I find the Liberal Member's questions rather odd. It is clearly an indication that he has not been listening to what I have been saying. I have invited both Opposition Parties to full briefings on this Bill continually. From before the time that we introduced it, I have indicated to them that I would co-operate in every way, shape and form possible to give them the information that they have requested. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order , please.

The Honour able Memb er for Dauphin, on a point of order. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr . Speaker , this Minister said he is inviting them for full briefings. We have asked for information, we received three pages of incomplete data. Where is the information? Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Honourable Mem ber does not have a point of order . That is a dispute over facts.- (interject ion) - Ord er, pl ease. Order . The Honour able Minister of Rural Development. ***** Mr. Penner: We set up on a number of occasions meetings to brief the Opposition Parties, fully brief them.

I had my staff and indicated to my staff that they should provide the Opposition with all the information that they had requested. At the meeting that was set up for br iefing, a full briefing, of the Opposition Parties one NDP Memb er showed up. I think that is a clear indication as to what concern they have about this Bill. Some Honour able Member s: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order . The Honourable Mem ber for Spr ingfield. Mr. Roch: Mr . Speaker, either the Minister is stalling, has trouble hearing, or refused to answer the question.

I asked him why did he not give the pro mised information sessions to the school divisions as they requested and as they were promised. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, my staff were asked yesterday by a member of the Manitoba Association for School 4022

Thur sday, Dece mber 21, 1989 Trustees whether it would be possible for them to sit down and brief them and discuss the legislation with them. The request for the meeting date that the MAST requested was Februar y 15 and we said, yes, we will sit down and discuss this Bill with you and how it will affect you. The concerns that are being raised by the Liberal Party are red herrings and red flags, and they are tr ying to make a political issue of this. They are trying to stall the Bill that Man itobans have been looking forward to for a long time. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please.

The Honourable Memb er for Springfield , with his final supplementary question. Mr. Roch: Mr. Speaker, this is ridiculous. He is the one who is trying to rush the Bill throug h, because virtually all of the presenters at the committee hearings including Mr. Manson Moir, President of the Union of Manitoba Mu nicipalities- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. Is ther e a question here? Mr. Roch: Yes, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr.

Roch: My question to the Minister is: given the fact that the concerns expressed were not only about the Bill itself but about the haste in which they are proceeding- Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker: Order , ple ase; order, ple ase . The Honourable Memb er for Springfield, put his question now, please. Mr. Roch: My question to the Minister is: why does he want to suppr ess public input and proper analysis of the public presentations, given the fact that the concerns are not only the Bill itself but the haste in which they are attempting to pass- Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order , please. Ord er. The Honour able Minister of Rural Development. Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development ): Mr . Speaker, I am very pleased that the Honourable Mem ber asked this question, because we have said continually we are open to debate, we are .open to discussion, we want to- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er. Mr. Penner : -g ive all Manitobans a fair oppor tunity to appear. The Comm ittee on Municipal Affairs sat this morning to hear presentations by the public on this Bill. The Opp osition Parties, both Opposition

Part ies refused to appear this morning at comm ittee. There was a presenter who was turned down tod ay, because the comm ittee could not sit and hear because the Opposition refused to appear. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable Mem ber for Springfield, with a new question. Mr. Roch: Mr. Speaker, the Minister knows full well that a comm ittee was adjourned last night. The Minister has stated that he introduced this Bill at such a late date because he did not want to introduce it prior to mun icipal elections. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please.

The Honourable Mem ber for Springfield has the floor. The Honourable Mem ber for Spr ingfield. Mr. Roch: Mr. Speaker, the Minister has stated, as well as his colleagues, that they did not want to introduce this Bill prior to the municipal elections, the adm ission that this Bill was ready and could have been introduced as early as last September , probably before, if he would have had the political will to do so. Mr. Speaker, given the fact that this Minister- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order . Order , please. Mr. Roch: My question is to the Minister of Rural Development.

Given the fact that this Minister and the Gover nment House Leader (Mr . Mccr ae)- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! * (14 00) Committee Scheduling Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Honourable Member for Springfield for the last time-or der. Order , please. The Honour able Memb er for Springfield for the last time. Order . The Honourable Mem ber for Springfield will put his question now, please. Mr.

Gilles Roch (Springfield): Will the Minister now agree to the Opposition's offer to co-operate by having the committee sit in early January so that the Bill may receive Royal Assent prior to January 15, the Minister's own stated deadline, January 15 ? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): I had written a letter to both Opposition Parties indicating to them the deadlines that had to be met by the departments in order to allow the Department of Education to do their calculation that would allow 4023

Thur sday, Dece mber 21, 1989 them to make the announcement by January 15. I said, when I had verbally discussed with the Honour able Memb er from Dauphin (Mr . Plohman), the possibility of moving this Bill through this House would give the department ample opportun ity to make tho se calculations. Everybody knows, especially the Mem bers who have sat in this House and have been Cabinet Mem bers in this House before, that it takes a long time to do those calculations, to provide the divisions with the funding announcements that they need by January 15 .

I had indicated that I was pleased to hear them say they would accommodate that by January 15 . I still am pleased to hear that. We are willing to sit this evening. We are willing to sit again tom or row, we are willing to sit on the 28th and the 29th- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; ord er, pl ease. The Honour able Memb er for Spring field, with a supplementa ry question. Mr. Roch: Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister willing then to sit in early January, whether it is January 2, 3, 4, then in order to accommoda te the public and accomm odate Opposition Mem bers who, unlike the Government, have not had several months with only a few weeks to- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. POINT OF ORD ER Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): I believe the Honourable Mem ber is asking a question, which is more appropr iately a ma tter for Hous e business. It would be mor e appropria te tor the matter to be discussed amongst the House Leaders. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr .

Speaker, on the same point. The Mem ber was asking a question in direct response to the statement made by the Minister. While I would normally agree with the Government House Leader, I think it is incumbent upon the Minister to respond to the information he puts on the table. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Mem ber for Thompson, on a point of order . Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): On a point of order . We have raised this as House Leaders.

The reason these questions are being asked now is because the Government has stubbornly refused to listen to the Opposition Parties and make the scheduling in early January. So the Minister- Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase; ord er, pl ease. The Honour able Government House Leader, on the same point of or der. Mr. Mccrae: On the same point of order. I rose because recently you yourself rose, Your Honour, on matters like this suggesting tha t it be a matter that House Leaders discuss. I would discourage Honour able Mem bers, such as the Honour able Memb er for Thom pson (Mr .

Ashton), from attempting to negotiate the business of the House on the floor of the House.- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order . Order, please. Mr. McCrae: It may be that there are not very many days left before we all try to get together with our families and enjoy Christmas. It may be in these final days before that arr ives the appropria te spirit might descend upon this place, and the House Leaders might be the appropria te people to discuss this matter. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised. (interjection)- Order , please. The Honourable House Leader is quite corr ect.

Wher e I have said in the past, discussions such as these, as House business, should be dealt with by the thr ee House Leaders. Deadline Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Mem ber for Springfield, with his final supplementa ry question. Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): My question to the Minister of Rural Development then is this: seeing as he does not want to sit at a specific date in January, why did he state that January 15 was his deadline? Now we are willing to accom modate him as well as the public and as well as our own analysis. Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): I have, on two occasions now over here, indicated that Janua ry 15, we must annou nce by statutor y requirements that the provincial funding for educational pu rposes to suppor t the school division must be announced. Both Muni cipal Affairs and the Depar tment of Education need a substantial amount of time to do tho se calcula tions in order to make th ose announcements. Mem bers opposite certainly know that. I know both of them have people that have been involved in education for many years and know the requirements and the time lines.

I said I was very pleased to hear both Opposition Parties agree that we could pass this legislation in order to meet those deadlines. I stand by that, and I was pleased to hear that. I think we had sufficient co-operation from both Parties until they started to play politics with this man. Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honour able Mem ber tor Concord ia. (interjection)- The Honour able Memb er is quite corr ect. The Honourable Member for Concordia. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr .

Speaker, I think all political Parties have said they want to deal with this matter by January 15 , including the Minister. We stay by our word about dealing with this issue by January 15 in the Minister's letter. I think we should get off our stubbornness and start dealing with this thing on a more rational basis. * (1410 ) 4024

Thu rsday, December 21, 19 89 Depart ment of Health Manua l of Administration Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Premier (Mr . Filmon). Over the last 19 months we have had a situation where we have not had a report from the Department of Health dealing with extended care beds in the Province of Manitoba.

Yet we have found recently that the senior management of the Department of Health are meeting, full-day meet ings, discussing areas such as for purposes of staff in the Department of Healt h, pro posed perks in the Department of Health like condominiums in Hawaii, vacations, mem berships in health clubs, all kinds of issues, Mr. Speaker, which I will table in this House which are contrary to the Manual of the Administration. I ask the Premier , as Minister responsible to the Treasury Board , whether he will instr uct the Minister of Health (Mr .

Orchard) to put a stop to these issues and only have recommendations that are within the Manual of Administration pu rsuant to Government policy? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr . Speaker, I find it very interesting that the man with the camera who photographed em pty shipping boxes and called them hazardous waste would even dare to ask a question today, after again maligning health care pr ofessionals with false information to this House. I expected when he rose he might apolog ize to Dr. Hammond and those mem bers at Cadham Lab that he maligned with his misinformation yesterd ay.

Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please. I should re mind the Honour able Min ister tha t ans wers to questions should be as brief as possible and should deal with the matter raised. The Honour able Member for Concord ia. (interjec tion) - Ord er, ple ase; ord er, pl ease. I have recognized the Honour able Mem ber for Concord ia. Mr. Doer: The emplo yees at Cadham Lab thanked the Minister for cleaning up the chemicals yesterd ay. I would now like to get an answer from the Minister.

Why is he, as the alleged steward and leader of his depart ment, allowing these groups of emplo yees to meet and deve lop literally hundr eds of ideas on proposals for emplo yees, liquor, Jets tickets, dr aws for other things? Why is he allowing this to happen in his department when all the public knows? We have the pictures of empty beds at the Deer Lodge Hospital, full hallways in Misericordia and Municipal Hospitals- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, in 14 of the last questions, my honourable friend, the NOP Leader (Mr .

Doer), has posed 12 of them based on false information including the empty boxes at Cadham Lab yesterd ay. My Honourable friend ought to reconsider his position that we do not allow the staff at the Manitoba Health Services Commission, or staff anywhere else in the Civil Service, to deal with management, to ask how they can be recognized when they do a job well done. (interject ion)- Yes, some emplo yees have made the suggestion they would like some of the things he has put on the record , but those have not even reached the short list being considered by management.

Those were rejected by the emplo yees themselves. What is happening is the empl oyees at the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission are now participating with management on discussions of how we make the conditions of work better and reward them for doing jobs well done in a non-monetary fashion, something that I think is long overdue- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. An Honourable Member: I wonder if the Minister- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please. Depart ment of Health Manua l of Administration Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would wonder whether the Premier (Mr .

Filmon) would instruct his Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) to ensure that his senior management is working within the Manual of Administration, as head of the Treasury Board , rather than developing hundreds of ideas that are outside of the Manual of Adminis tra tion for Government services; at the same time, we cannot get any plans for extended care beds. Will he instr uct his Minister of Health to come in with the extended care bed plan January 1, 19 90, rather than coming up with all these silly little ideas that are outside of the Ma nual of Administration? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr .

Speaker, I am glad to tell the Mem ber for Concordia that unlike the days when the NOP were in Government, our Government is comm itted to keep our emplo yees working within the General Manual of Administration.

Treasury Board , over the past year, has had reviews of this to ensure that all departments are working within the General Manual of Administration and ensuring that good management practices, at all times, are practised by this Gov ernment, unlike the waste and the mismanagement that occurred chronically under the NOP, the hundreds of millions of dollars of deficit, the destruction of our Crown corporations that occurred because of their lack of management ability under the NOP. Tha t does not occur under this administration. Rafferty-A lameda Dam Project U.S. Corps of Enginee rs Report Mr.

Harold Taylor (Wolseley): My question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr . Cummings). If it was not such a serious matter for the people of Manitoba, this Govern ment 's handling of Rafferty -Alameda would make an excellent plot for a Gilbert and Sullivan farce. Dispute between two American departments over the monitoring of water quality and quantity of the Souris 4025

Thu rsday, Dece mber 21, 19 89 River in North Dakota ha s now jeopard ized the establishment of base-line data needed if Man itoba is to be able to determ ine the im pacts from the Rafferty Al ameda dams. Ther efore, can the Minister of Environment (Mr . Cummings) tell this House what steps he has taken to ensur e that the dispute between the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the U.S. Wildl ife Service will not threaten Manitoba's interests, given that this dispute could actually lead to a violation of the Canada-U.S. agre ement? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): The U.S.

Army Corps of Engineers have long said that it is not their res ponsi bility to provi de downst ream information from Lake Darl ing. I am not sure in what context the Memb er feels that we will now be denied that information. We believe ther e are other methods that we can use to acquire that information, and certainly we will continue to pur sue them. Mr. Taylor: It is well documented as to what the problem is. External Affairs Intervention Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, has the Minister contacted the Secretar y of State for External Affairs, Joe Clark, so that he can raise this problem with the Americans and ensure that the dispute will not adversely affect Manitobans? Hon. Glen Cummin gs (Minister of Environment): We have been in contact with Mr . Bouchard, but I have not been in contact with Mr . Clark on this

part icular issue. When I have a better understanding of the concern the Mem ber is raising, I will be most glad to do that. Construction Delay Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): It is quite evident that this Government and this department are not monitoring the issue. Will the Minister now pressure his kissing cousins in Regina and Ottawa to delay any further work on the dam until this American dispute is resolved , given that a river management plan is a requirement by the federal Government and cannot pr oceed- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable Minister of the Environment. Hon.

Glen Cummin gs (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, we have said that we would make sure that we would use every means at our disposal to make sure that the an alysis and the base-line data on the Souris River Basin was completed up to the Assiniboine River. It-is still my opinion from any information I have at this point that we should be able to accomplish that and then proceed to the River Basin Management with the proper base-line data. Northern Tax Allowance Extensions Mr. Steve Ashton (Thom pson): Mr.

Speaker, over the last thr ee years, we in Northern Manitoba have been fighting for fairness on the Northern Tax Allowance. A number of communities have received it since that time, although they were recom mended for being cut just recently. Others such as Thom pson and Wabowden have been fighting on and off thr oughout that period to get fairness. Michael Wilson, the Finance Minister, made an announcement last Friday, which once again shows their ignorance of the issue, by only extending it for one year- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Does the Honourable Memb er have a question? Mr. Ashton: Yes, Mr . Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Kindly put your question now, please. Mr. Ashton: My apologies, it is a very important and a very compl icated matter. What I would like to ask the Premier is, what a ction has he taken since the announcement last Friday that some communities will be extended a year,

whereas Thompson and Wabowden will be extended for nothing for next year, to ensure that we finally get some fairne ss out of the federal Government on the Northern Tax Allowance which would include reinstating every community in northern Manitoba to the full tax allowance that they deserve? Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The question has been put. The Honourable Minister of Finance. Hon. Clayton Manne ss (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I stand to indicate to the Member that the announcement last Friday was one that we found disconcerting on this side, particularly after I had brought the issue up again with Mr . Wilson when I met with him in early Decem ber. It was an issue on the agenda; I discussed it with him. He indicated there would be some changes; he did not go far enough, obviously. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Question has expired . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Jame s Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr .

Sp eaker , the motion adop ted by the Hous e yesterday to transfer certain Bills from one standing committee to another was pr epared in English only. To comply with

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, and to ensure the corr ectness of those records, it should have been prepar ed in both English and Fr ench. This oversight has now been corrected, and I would therefore ask leave to move the following, and I would do so seconded by the Honour able Minister of Finance (M r. Man ness): THAT Bill No. 7, The International Sale of Goods Act;

Loi sur la vente internationals de marchan dises; and Bill No. 76, The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act 4026

Th ur sday, December 21, 1989 (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les courtiers en immeubles; be withdrawn from the Standing Comm ittee on Industrial Relations; and Bill No. 33, The Ecological Reserves Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur les reserves ecologiques, be withdrawn from the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources and that these Bills be tran sferred to the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. (French translation) Que le comite permanent des rela tions industrielles soit dessaisi du pr ojet de Loi no 7;

Loi sur la vente internationale de marchand ises (The International Sale of Goods Act) et du pr ojet de Loi no 76; Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les courtiers en immeubles (The Real Estate Brokers Amendment Act (2), et que le com ite permanent des services publ ics et des resso.urces naturelles soit dessaisi du pr oject de Loi no 33; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les reserves ecologiques (The Ecological Reserves Amendment Act), et que ces pr ojets de Loi soient revoyes au comite permanent des modifications legislatives. * (1 420) Mr. Speaker: Is ther e leave? (Agreed) HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr . Speaker, I understand that if you were to ask you might find that there would be a disposition on the part of Honourable Mem bers to waive Private Mem bers' Hour today. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive Pr ivate Me mbers' Hour? Agreed? (Agreed) Mr. Mccrae: Mr.

Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Bills in the following order: Bills 90, 59, 60, 31, 42, 62, 63, 64, 73, 7 4, 83, 84 and the rem ainder as they are listed on the Order Paper? Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Just for clarification, Mr. Speaker, sh.ould Bill 90 pass, we will 1 be moving immediately into Committee of the Whole? Mr. Mccrae: It would be our wish to move Bill 90 just as far along as we can, Mr . Speaker, and if that would include Comm ittee of the Whole, that would be just fine. Mr. Speaker: After second read ing of Bill No. 90- Mr.

Mccrae: The Bill should go as far as Honourable Mem bers in the House will allow it to go before we move to the next Bill. Mr. Speaker: Ok ay. The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, correct me, but did we deal with leave to waive Private Mem bers' Hour? An Honourable Member : Yes, we did. Mr. Speaker: That has been agreed upon. 4027 DEBATE ON SECOND READIN GS BILL NO. 90-T HE INTERIM APPROPRIA TION ACT, 1989

(2) Mr. Speaker: On the pro posed mo tion of the Honour able Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness), Bill No. 90, The Interim Appropriation Act, 19 89 (2); Loi no 2 de 19 89 portant affectation anticipee de credits, standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) who has 24 minutes remaining, the Honourable Member for Rupertsl and. Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): I would just like to continue my remarks on this Bill, and I will not take much time as we want to refer this to the comm ittee as soon as all the other people have spoken on this Bill.

I am very concerned as I mentioned earlier about the North and how some of the actions taken by this Government will affect mainly the northern people. Certainly one of the issues that I raised with the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) was the Northern Development Agreement in which many of the northern pr ograms were funded . Now that dev elop ment agreement is no longer there, what will repla ce that agreement? This agreement has been in place for many years, cost-shared with the federal Government. It has been extended till 19 90, as it will expire March 31, 19 90.

We have put in appro xima tely $275 milli on into this agreem ent, and many of the dolla rs that are provided for were used by the northern communities. We are concerned whether the dolla rs that will be lost as a result of not renegotiating the agreement -wh ere is the funding going to come from? The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) had indicated to the Oppos ition when we were debating his Estimates that ther e were negotiations going on with the federal Go ver nme nt to cost-share on some programs.

Certainly the development agreem ent, the Northern Development Agreement, the Special ARDA agreement, are no longer there, and we are concerned as to where those dolla rs are going to come from. Most of the funding that went to the Northern Affairs commun ities, the capital funding, the commun ity infrastructure, was cost-shared under tha t agreement 60-40. We are wondering where the Depar tment of Northern Affairs is going to get the money to pr ovide that ongoing pr ogram for many of the Northern Affairs commun ities.

In the community infrastructure, I believe, under Sector C of the Program -u nder Program 13, we were able to provide the funding for many of the infrastructure that is needed in the Northern Affairs commu nities. We have other programs in another sector of the agreement, which we are very concerned about, which is Sector B, the human development program , on which a major portion of the agreement was expended on. Cer tainly I belie ve my calculations were th at we expende d quite substan tially under tha t human development program .

Thur sday, Decem ber 21, 1989 Many of the training oppor tunities under the human development prog ram were funded for many of the northern residents. We are particularly concerned for educational opportunities and training oppor tunities because the federal Govern ment has cut back on many of its funding, especially to the Ind ian people, as a result of the cutbacks they have made on their post secondary education. We want to continue stressing to the federal Government and we want to make sure that this Government pursues ongoing discussions, or to try to increase funding for many of the Native students.

Also by the federal Go ve rnment not renego tiating the Northern Development Agreement, many of the educational training opportunities that were funded under that agreement will no longer be there. Many of the programs like BU NTEP, under which many of the Native teachers were trained, will no longer be there. The social workers under the No rthern Development will no longer be there, and also the northern nursing that was provided for will no longer be there.

We are very concerned as to where the province will be getting the funding to provide the same kind of oppor tunities that were provided for under the Northern Developm ent Agreem ent. I know the Minister has assured us that we would be getting some funding from the federal Go vernment, or at le ast they were negotiating with the federal Gover nment.

I know that under this agreement, we had indicated that there would be some funding made available to provide funding at least till March 19 90, and certa inly we are concerned as to where the next budget for items for expenditure where are the revenue or the dolla rs that are going to be available to expend on these programs?

We have had indications from the federal Government they are cutting back on spending and also trying to reduce the deficit, but certainly that does not help many of the northe rn, Native communities in the North to try to gain emplo yment or to have oppor tunity to train or to go to school so that they can be educated for their future and also for their children. (Mr . Neil Gaudry, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Certainly the Government has announced a number of major pr ojects in the North. Repap is one, the other one is Conawapa, the hydro development pr oject.

The hydro line associated with Conawapa that will be built along the east side of Lake Winnipeg is another major undertak ing by this Government, which will come at some later point after the construction of the Conawapa Dam, which will provide the transmission line to bring it down south. The other of course is the hydro line that will be pr ovided to the northeast commun ities in northeastern Manitoba, which are my communities, part of my constituency, Oxford House, Gods Narrows, Gods River, Red Sucker Lake, Wasagamack, Garden Hill Reserve and St. Ther esa Point.

Those are the communities that I am talking about when I mention the north east part of my constituency in which ma ny of the people are looking forward to bringing this line into the community, and we are looking for tra ining opportun ities to take

part in that development of that project to take on the cont racts, to take on economic and also job oppor tunities. Certainly we are concerned about the actions of the federal Government as to what northern Man itoba will be impacted. Cert ainly with the GST, the 7 percent tax on top of what we are being taxed already is going to be a tremen dous burden.

With the programs that have been annunciated by the federal Government, GST, the UI C, which makes it even mor e harder to get the benefits from UIC-c ertainly would have a tremendous impact in a community because most of the people only have emplo yment for a few weeks during which construction takes place.

We are not able to harne ss some of the benefits that would arise from UIC, and also other cutbacks. * (1 430) I mentioned the education cutbacks that are being made, and also now the federal Government is calling on the bands who have winter road contracts to build in those commun ities to put up 20 percent of their capital into the winter road system.

Before this happened the bands were able to secure funding from the federal Go ve rnment, but now the federal Government is forcing the bands to put up 25 percent of their capital which, I might say, were not even pr ovided for under the present arrangement for any capital. In a sense it is erod ing the money that the bands are getting to provide for better living conditions. They may be using that 25 percent capital requirements for the winter roads off their housing capital requirement. It is dwindling, the limited resources the bands have. We need assistance from the province to provide some job creation.

I know that under the MCAP programs we were able to pr ovide some job creation, at least subsidize the labour component, for many of the construction activities on the reserves. We need some job creat ion dollars and by not allowing that to happen, it makes it even more difficult for the Indian bands to be able to secure any kind of a cushion or funding from the pr ovincial Govern ment. The province should not necessarily be looking at what the federal Government's responsibilities are.

The Indian people are citizens of this province, and they certainly pay their fair share of taxes of the mentioned citizens of the pr ovince, and they take

part in the development of Manitoba. As I mentioned earlier, I would not be taking too long-I was rem inded that I should not be taking too long- but certainly, I just want to say that in the North we need to get mor e involved, and also we need to participate in many of the decisions that are made in the North -the development of Conawapa. We need assura nces tha t we have the jobs and trai ning oppor tunities. It is far too long that we have been sort of left aside. We see development taking place in our own backyards and not being part of it.

As a matter of fact, over the many years, our communities have been stagnant we see commun ities devel oping. The y are taking advantage of the resource developments, whether it be mining, forestry or hydro development. I think we have said for many years that we need to get involved. Slowly we are getting involved, but it 4028

Thur sday, December 21, 1989 is not enough. We need to be mor e active, we need the assistance of the Gov ernm ents. We need the assistance of the provincial Gover nment, so that we can be mor e active, able to have an affordable house, a good quality house, a standard of living that is compatible with any other Canadian citizen in this country. At this time in many of the reserves we do not even have water and sewer in our homes. Most of the people still have to get firewood, still have to go outside to go to the washroo m, or even haul water from the lake.

In Red Sucker Lake, I still do th at when I go back and live a harsher life in a harsher climate of existence. Certainly when we have a rich resource country like Canada, like Manitoba, we have these resources in our backyards, yet we do not benefit from those resources. As a matter of fact some of these hydro lines go past our communities, and we need to hook up to these, those lines brought into our communities, so that we can provide better living conditions for many of our aboriginal people and their commun ities.

Certainly this Minister says we tried, and he is carrying on the issues that we have indicated in this House l am sorr y, ther e is nothing new that this Minister has advocated, the hydro line, the Urban Native Strategy, the Native secretariat, all those things came from the planning of the NOP ad ministration. They have no new ideas, and I am gla d they are carr ying on the activities. We need to be more active and certainly as a provincial Government, we need to -(interjection)- that guy says I speak with forked tongue. I do not speak with forked tongue.

We still need to resolve many of the outstanding issues that the federal Govern ment and pr ovincial Government needs to pay to the Ind ian people. One of them is the Treaty Land Entitlement that I raised during the Minister of Northern Affairs' (Mr . Downey) Estimates that came up. I could go on and talk about many of the outstanding obligations, commitments of the Government of Canada and the pr ovincial Gover nment, but at this point I will conclude by saying that I will just put a few rem arks on the Interim Supply.

I know we passed 95 percent of the Gover nment expenditures, but certainly we look forward to mor e programs for the North and also training programs, educational oppor tunities for the people in the Nort h. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Ed Mandr ake (Assiniboia): It is certainly a gr eat honour to be able to stand today and place on the record the comments regard ing Hig hways and Transportation. That is the area and only area I will be speaking to. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am pr ofound by the statement of the Minister of Finance (Mr .

Manness) a little while ago stating that the Highways budget has increased, or the Capital bud get I should say, had increased over appro ximately $7 million.

Schedule 4, if the Honourable Minister would kindly look at the total for the Department of Highways and Transportation funding for the adjusted vote in 19 88- 89 was $219 ,257, 10 0 and for the year ending 19 90 is a total of $225,48 1, 10 0, which equates to approximately $6 million, give or take a thousand dollars here or there. I am comp letely amazed at this Minister's calculation. No wonder we see the economy of Manitoba taking such a plunge, because obviously he does not know how to do proper mathematics.

It is a funny thing, when you are in Opposition you can advocate all kinds of things but when you come to power you seem to forget all of the things that you said when you were in Opposition. An Honour able Member: You will never have to worry. Mr. Mandr ake: Well, the Ho nourable Minister for Seniors (Mr . Downey) said, we will never have to worry. Continue on with the path that you have taken, i.e., coming to Assiniboia doing canvassing, and I have gone 4 percent in the polls because of your ignorance. I will tell you that right now. Please come back. Please come back.- (interjection)- The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Gaudr y): Order , please. Mr. Mandr ake: It is totally pr ofound that when they were in Opposition back in 19 86, the 5th of June, 19 86, recorded in Hansard, PCs advocated this. We need another $10 0 million or $15 0 million in Highways and Transpor tation, and what do we give this year, a paltr y $6 million. Is that not nice? Here he is, here they are, when they were in Opposition they would advocate for a horr endous amount of money for Highways and Transpor tation, but put them into power and all of a sudden they are comp letely muted.

I am completely amazed at this Minister's inability to be able to convince the Treasury Board to give them an appropriate amount of mo ney for the Highways and Transportation. An Honourable Mem ber: That was the taxpayers who give us the money. Mr. Mand rake: The Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr . Manne ss) says, the taxpayers give us the mone y. Indeed it is true, no question about it. All I am saying is that when you are in Opposition and you advocate tor $10 0 million to $15 0 million for a budget tor Highways and Transportation, I think is very, very irresp onsible.

An Honour able Member: What would you advocate for? Mr. Mandr ake: A respectable amount of money. Mr . Acting Speaker, let us not talk at both sides of our mouth. Let us be reasonable and always respect what we are getting in-a very good case in point. (interject ion)- The Honourable Finance Minister (Mr . Manness) is chirping from his seat. He has an oppor tunity to set a dedicated fund from the money that he is collecting from the one cent per litre tax. He has that opportunity. He should show initiative today and next year we can have a minimum of $14 million minimum, Mr.

Acting Speaker, in our Highways and Transportation budget. 4029

Thur sday, December 21, 1989 All they have to do is show some initiative, and the Highways and Transportation budgets could at least show that much of an increase in the forthcoming budget. * ( 14 40) I would like to go on further about the Highways and Transportation. I want to go to-m y favourite subject, of course, is going to be- An Honour able Member: Licence plates. Mr. Mand rake: The Minister of Finance (Mr . Man ness) is chirping from his seat saying licence plates-jus t my favourite subject. How naive can you be? Here is a frontbencher of the Party in power making a ludicrous statement like that.

I have mo re important things to do than start conversing with the Minister of Finance on licence plates. I have put my Bill through and I think it is a very good Bill. Obviously they do not think so. While I am on that subject let me just say this: the way the Bill was presented before, Mr. Acting Speaker, the friendly and Manitoba could not be covered. All I am saying-a nd the Member for Morris, the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness), should not be so naive as to laugh from his seat with respect to my remarks about friendly Manitoba, because I am proud of my country, I am proud of my province.

I served my country for twelve and a half years. I am proud that I am a Canadian, and I only hope that the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) would do the same thing, instead of being so naive as to say, well it is a trivial little Bill. It is not trivial. In the rural areas we have Crime Watch. The way it is right now, Mr. Acting Speaker, we only have one licence plate with which we can identify the vehicle and that is the rear licence plate.

If the farmer notices a vehicle out on the road, a suspicious vehicle that is sitting there, there is no way he can identify it by the front plate, because it is no longer in existence. The NOP went and took it out. Ther efore, the rear licence plate is more param ount right now that it be cleaned, because rural Crime Watch is a very, very important facet for the rural people. We have seen an escalation of crimes against our farmers, crimes against the farmers' stock, et cetera, and I could go on and on. I want that on record so they can no longer say that I am against rural Manitoba.

I am more so for rural Manitoba than any place else. Let us not put that on record, as the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) would like to have us believe. One thing I would like to go further on-a nd that is with one subject we all know and we have always been cognizant of, Highway 75. Mr . Acting Speaker, when this Honour able Minister took the position of Minister of Highways and Transportation, in his first budget he said, I will work from both ends on Highway 75. We applauded him for it. We certainly would-a t least he is showing some initiative, and he was going to work from both ends.

A lot of people made a lot of sly remarks about that, but I think the Minister of Transport knew what he was talking about. Maybe he did not put it in the right tone, but still we knew what his agenda was. Mr. Acting Speaker, the thing is what are we going to do in the interim? What are we doing in the interim to make sure that Highway 75 is made a safe road to travel on? In a very recent

article in the Morris paper, it states tha t the y have had numerous accidents whereby the highway was very, very slippery. I came back from the Un ited States after the Novemb er 11 long weekend, and I made comments, went to the Minister of Transport (Mr . Albert Driedger) personally. I suggested to him that the road just past Eme rson was in a horrible shape, was very, very slippery, and it could be very dangerous to the tr avelling public. He took that under advisement. Of course, I did not hear an ans wer back from him.

Reading the Mo rris paper, I noticed again we have had accidents on that same road, being Highway 75. I do not understand the mental ity, that kind of mentality. When we have a major road such as Highway 75, the sand ing vehicles should be on tha t road constantly. Whenever we have a sleet or a fog or a freezing fog such as that, which we have had in the past month and a half or so, that road, and particularly that road -w e cannot afford to lose any more people. We have lost too many people on that highway as it is. I would strongly suggest that the Minister of Transport (Mr .

Albert Driedger) now address that issue a little bit mor e vigorously than he has in the past. We have to be very, very careful so we do not lose any mor e Manitobans or our visitors that come to Canada. This is totally ridiculous, whereby we have a main highway of that magnitude and not address it in a fashion in which we should. I am profound tha t this Minister has not addressed the most important issue that is going to be put in front of him within a very, very few months, and that is the GST, the 7 percent GST. We heard the Minister of Finance (Mr .

Manness) in this House stating that he has done a study for the Highways Department and Tourism. This Minister has not even had the courtesy to call in the two critics and say, this is what it is going to cost Manitoba because of the 7 percent GST. No, he has not. It seems to be the mentality of this Tory Government. It is the mentality of this Tory Gover nment to go ahead and just do things whatever. They all want Bill 79 is a good example; the dr unken dr iving Bill is another good example. They had to come back with X number of amendme nts.

They do not even know which way they are going, up or down, east or west. An Honour able Member: No, we are going south. * (14 50) Mr. Mand rake: I doubt it very much. I want this on record. The Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) says I am going to go down south. Very nice, that is part of free trade. We can all become Southerners, in other words, Americans. Sure, finally we have him on record . (interject ion)- 4030

Thu rsday, December 21, 19 89 The Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr . Man ness) asks me whether or not the parachute did not open. I will tell you someth ing, at least I am proud to be a paratrooper . Does he have the guts to do something like that, go serve Canada? Go on, get off, serve the Canadian Armed Forces. There you go, you are sitting in your seat and making stupid, idiotic remarks like that. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaud ry): Order , please; order , please. Mr. Mandr ake: Mr .

Acting Speaker, anybody who wishes to make any comments about my military career, I will stack up my military career against anybody's. I served with gr eat honour; I served with great honour, Mr. Acting Speaker. And I will serve my Queen anytime that she ever asks me to go and do that. Anytime. Mr . Acting Speaker, I would like to now just indulge for one second on a particular letter that the Minister of Highways (Mr . Albert Driedger) wrote to a constituent of mine when the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) visited her house.

I will quote a paragraph from the letter just to show you the magnitude of the VIA Rail cuts. Now we have heard this Minister saying that communiques have gone down to visit the federal Minister of Transport and that we have put our case very, very strongly with regard to the VIA Rail cuts. Yet there is nothing done, still no way to say to the people of Manitoba that we are going to be able to reinstate it back to its original 11 trains per day. None. Mr.

Acting Speaker, but this is what the Minister wrote, and I have it right here, and it is a reduction of VIA Rail service by itself by half, misrepresenting because it went from 11 to three trains. Now where does this Minister go off making statements like that. Can he not count? I think he has been taking lessons from the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness). Further on he said, it could mean a loss of $50 million annually to the provincial economy; a loss of up to 1, 000 jobs; would take $30 million from the economy; with another $15 million to $20 million loss annually in the pur chases of goods and services.

Now in my calculation, Mr. Acting Sp eaker, that is close to a million dolla rs per year we are going to be losing in our economy because of VIA Rail cuts. An Honourable Member: A million? Mr. Mandr ake: No, $10 0,000.00. Pardon me, it is $10 0 million, $10 0 million. It is $10 0 million, Mr. Acting Speaker, lost in this economy because this Minister .is unable to deal with his federal Tory, his federal cousin. An Honourable Mem ber: Peanuts. Mr. Mandr ake: Well, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr . Enns) says, peanuts; $10 0 mill ion is peanuts, Mr . Acting Speaker. It is amazing; it is totally uncalled for.

How can anybody, a Minister of the Crown, state that $10 0 million is peanuts? Mr. Acting Speaker, 1, 000 jobs are going to be lost in this provincial economy because 4031 of VIA Rail cuts. Oh, it will probably go highe r, no question about it. All I ask this Minister of Highways (Mr . Albert Driedger) is, has he done an impact study as to what - An Honour able Member: You bet he has, you bet. Mr. Mandr ake: You bet, he says; there he goes again. Ob viously, Mr.

Acting Speaker, this is the avenue in which this Government is going and I ask, are they going to do a study, they are going to do a review of the study, review the review, and so on and so forth? They will never come up with an answer, because they are not going to be in office by the time the thing is going to be finalized. I mean, these people are so scared to make a decision if their life depended upon it, if their life depended upon it. They have no clout, no clout whatsoever with their federal cousins. We are losing 1, 000 jobs in Manitoba because of VIA Rail cuts. What has he done?

Well, he spoke to this here Benoit Bouchard. He spoke to him. I mean , this is- ***** The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): On a point of order? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): On a point of order . I wonder if we could help the Member to some degree and make a corr ection-a thousand jobs in Manitoba with Via Rail? We have a total emplo yed of a little over 600 and we are losing 21 2. I want him and myself to have the record on the same level. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudr y): No point of order; dispute over the facts. ***** Mr.

Mandr ake: The Honourable Mem ber, my colleague from Transcona (Mr . Kozak), of course brings up a very, very valid point. This is only Via Rail. These are total jobs in Via Rail. Now what about the CN jobs that are being lost, Mr . Acting Speaker? You just canno t comprehend the impact on our economy once January 15 rolls around. It is going to be just horrendous to our economy and this Minister will do nothing. At least he has not shown us that he can have some clout with the federal Minister.

He went down to Ottawa and we on this side of the House, and the same thing goes wifh the New Democratic Party, we consented to have a submission with the Canadian Brotherhood of Railway Workers, the City of Winnipeg, to put our name to that subm ission. Did we, the two official critics, receive a final edit of that submission? No. An Honour able Member: You did not ask for one. Mr. Mandr ake: Well, the Minister says I did not ask for one.

I think it would only be common courtesy if we are going to put our party and the New Dem ocratic Party onto that list we would have received a final edited edition of that submission, offered to us in good faith

Thu rsday, December 21, 1989 as a working party. This Govern ment does not want to work in conjunction with the Opposition Party. They want a bullfighter. Ramrod things thr ough whether you like it or not. Take it because we know better, they say. Mr . Acting Speaker, I am very, very amazed at the stand that was taken by the people, and of course this Govern ment taking absolutely a no-leadersh ip stand on Via Rail.

I have before me 359 signatures which a senior citizen in our constituency provided me with asking for this Government and the federal Government to cease and desist on these cuts on Via Rail, 359 signatures. A senior citizen, may I add, by the name of Mr . Harry Andrews provided me with this petition. How much more, how much mor e can we go on record as saying, please talk to this Minister? If he cannot do it I suggest to him, talk to the First Minister today before it is too late and please go to Ottawa, sit on the doorstep of the Prime Minister and reason with the Prime Minister.

I mean do not go all the way there with your tail between your legs like he did on CFB Portage. Or else ask Dorothy Dobbie to stand up and tell us what to do. I am simply amazed how convoluted some of these answers we have been getting on this side of the House on questions that we have been asking. It is just unbelievable. Mr. Acting Speaker , I would like to also make ment ion of an

article in the Winnipeg Free Press dated October 15. Here is another example of what is happening on a federal level. * (15 00) The Canadian Export Development Corpora tion has provided a $10 0 million low-interest loan to Amt rak to purchase $12 0 million worth of new coaches and dining cars. One hundred million dollars in our own country would have bought the same thing for VIA Rail. We would have upgr aded our dining cars and our coaches with that low-interest loan without any problem. But no, we would prefer to give it to the Americans. It is not only that one instance.

We have the federal Tory Gover nment offering to go down to the third country- $800 mill ion to build 38 kilometres of track in Tanzania, thr ough the same-sur e, corpora tion-de velopment corpora tion. Why do we not clean our own home first? Let us clean up our own yard first. Let us establish a passenger service that is second to none. We can do it, because when the railroad was establ ished we only had 2.5 million people in here, and we had a railroad from one end of the country to the other end of the country and proud of Confederation. Now we have got 25 million people and we cannot sustain it.

That to me sounds comp letely ludicrous. Not only that- Some Honourable Member s: Oh, oh! Th e Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudr y): Order, please; order , please. Mr. Mandr ake: The VIA Rail is to me, in my hum ble opinion, a very , very im portant and a very environmentally sound means of transporting our senior citizens, our touri sts, and our low-income people thr oughout all of Canada, not just only a select triangle part of Canada, that being Ontario and Quebec. Mr .

Acting Speaker, as an editorial that was placed in The Financial Post of July 10, 19 89, the author of course is Alla n Fotheringham -thi s is what he said in nice bold letters: Voters to Remem ber VIA on Election Day. I will gua rantee you tha t all people in my constituency of Assiniboia are going to know what this Govern ment's stand was on VIA Rail and wha t they have done, what kind of attitude they have towards a national dr eam such as VIA Rail. Yes, absolutely true. The Honourable Mem ber, my colleague from Sturgeon Creek (Mr s. Yeo) says, a national disaster, and that is what it is, Mr. Acting Speaker.

It trul y is a national disaster when we can go around offering a low-interest loan of $10 0 million to Amtrak, and yet we cannot do the same thing for our country. I do not know where this priority of this Tory Government or the Tory Government in Ottawa is. An Honour able Member: That is because you are not prepared to do anything for our country. An Honour able Member: That is right. An Honour able Member: People like you are not prepared to do anything for your country. Mr. Mandr ake: The Honourable Mem bers are saying I am not prepar ed to do anything for my country. Well, I hate to say this, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have done a lot for my country. I do not think they can say that. I am wor king on my second career now. My first one was with the Armed Forces and very proudly so, and now as a politician. I am going to stay here for many, many years to come. A lot of them are not going to be here while I will be here yet. I will guarantee you that, no question in my mind. Some Honour able Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Mandr ake: Yes, that is right. The Honourable Mem ber, my colleague for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says, I went up in the polls, and that is exactly right, Mr.

Acting Speaker, because the constituents were simply appalled that the First Minister (Mr . Filmon), the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness), the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) would find time to go around and knock on doors. You mean to tell me, they do not have anything to do? They have a pr ovince to run. The Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) has comple tely kiboshed his Health Department. Mr . Acting Speaker, he is in total disarray in that department. The Finance Dep artment is the same way. The Hig hways and Transportation Depart ment is the same way.

Eventually, we are going to have all these departments just going, staggering from day to day from one end to the next day not knowing where we are going. While I am on the subject of Highways, I would again like to bring to the attention of the Minister of Highways (Mr . Albert Driedger) with the Annex "A" , Churchill Enhancement Initiatives. There were 40. Pardon me, 4032

Thur sday, December 21, 1989 now there are 50. Ther e are now 50 initiatives done that he had addressed and offered us a copy of. Mr . Acting Speaker, they say that they are for the Port of Churchill. They are certainly going to work in concert with the federal Government with regard to the Port of Churchill. Hopefully we will have an infrastructure in the Port of Chur chill whereby it will be a viable community. Not one initiative has been addressed. Not one initiative. It does not take money to put into action some good initiatives. All it takes is to talk with people in Russia.

For example, bring in, I forget now what the product is, I think it is something to do with fertilizer. I am not a farmer so I am not that conversant with it, but as I said, there are so many things we could do with the Port of Churchill. That is absolutely outrageous. No, we do not wish to address that issue. Probably the board is going to die because just no initiatives are going to be put in place here by this Government so that the Port can be a vibrant port. Not only that, but it belongs to Manitoba.

During Estimates, I was asking the Minister with regard to decentr alization and other subjects that I had addressed and again I would like to ask him, Mr. Acting Speaker, with regard to decentral ization. This Government is on record as saying that we are in favour of decentral ization. We are, too, no question about it, but what a beaut iful way to start decentral ization than the central ized booking system. Right now a person in rur al Manitoba, if they want to have a booking to take a dr iver's test or else a written test, they have to phone on a WATS line to Winnipeg to get a booking.

Why do we have to go through such a process? I will give you an example. An honourable constituent of Carman approached me on Saturday at Unicity and he said to me, he says, this central ized booking system stinks. I said, well, what is the problem, sir? He went on to say, my son wants to get his dr iver license. Apparently it is just before Christmas and he wants to give it to him as a birthday p resent. He said, first I have to go drive in to Carman and pay my fee for the wr itten test. Then he goes and then he has to come back to Carman to pay another fee for probably the tr affic test.

Ther e are two trips that he has to make into Carman with no reason whatsoever. One trip would ha ve been sufficient. One trip should be sufficient. Now maybe I did not listen, did not hear him proper ly. I do not know, Mr . Act ing Sp eak er . I wou ld never qu estion an honourable friend like that to put wrong information to me. Mr. Acting Speaker, as an example, the manager in charge of the Portage la Prairie testing unit, guess where he comes from? He lives here in Winnipeg. He tr avels back and forth to Portage la Prairie.

What a beautiful way to decentral ize is to say okay from now on, let us set a date line, and we are going to hire somebody from the Portage la Prairie area to fill that spot. Now would that not be a most logical thing to do? Would that not be the logical step to take? * (15 10) 4033 Hire somebody from within Portage la Prairie to fill that position and that person will buy a house in Portage la Prairie. That person will spend money in Portage la Prairie, as opposed to coming in from Winnipeg, driving into Portage, and coming back at night. He is being paid for their job and what does he do?

He spends all his money in Winnipeg. Portage la Prairie does not get anything. Now I do not think that is a proper avenue to take. That is only one example that I could address. I would like to again bring the attention to the Minister of Highways (Mr . Albert Driedger). I am not asking for an exorbitant amount of money, a little bit of common sense should prevail. Here we have an air brake manual for people who wish to study to be able to get their tr actor-trailer licence. This thing here goes on to say application air is shown in blue and ther e is no such a thing ther e. I broug ht this to his attention, Mr.

Acting Speaker, during the Estimate pr ocess. Did this Minister get back to me and say, yes, Ed, that was a very good idea and I will be addressing it and I have already addressed it? We are now in Decem ber and we have yet to hear from this Minister. What corrective action has he taken on this very, very important manual? This manual teaches basic fundamental valves in a tr actor-trailer for people who wish to learn to dr ive a tr actor-trail er. How can th ey say yes we are very , very open Government and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and yet cannot address a very, very small issue like that.

It is beyond me, Mr. Acting Speaker. An Honour able Member: A lot of things are beyond you, Ed. Mr. Mandr ake: The Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) again chirping from his seat, every thing is beyond me. Just to tell the Minister of Finance, I will stack my integrity against his integr ity any day in this House, any day, no question in my mind. Mr . Acting Speaking, I would like to also-one other point and that is particularly on yesterday's Question Period when I asked the Minister about the taxicab board. This taxicab board has been studied to death. It has been studied to death.

We had the Touche Ross Report, we had the Fox-Decent Report, we had the review of the Touche Ross Report. Now they are going to have another review. Then we had Jodi Gilmore doing another study. Why does this Minister not show proper leader ship, so that the taxicab industry will know tomo rrow exactly what their rule s are? An Honourable Mem ber: They will have shields. Mr. Mand rake: The Honour able Minister of Highways (Mr . Albert Driedger) is chirping from his seat they will have shields. Well, he said 60 days and we have yet to hear about that 60 days. What is happening? What is happen ing, Mr .

Acting Sp eaker? Nothing is happening. We have not heard one word from this Minister with regard to that very important issue, very important issue, because we cannot afford to lose another hum an being in our taxicab industry, not one. If the shields will do it, then do it now.- (interject ion)-

Thu rsday, December 21, 1989 That is being arrogant, what they just said now. That is just being arrog ant, because no human being should be kill ed or assassinated , Mr . Acting Sp eak er , particularly in the taxicab industry. We have had three too many in this province. This Minister should show leadership today so that the industry can walk around, be pro ud, and not have any problems. This Minister does not want to do that, Mr . Acting Speaker. With that comment, I thank you very much for your indulgence and I thank you very much for the indulgence of all Honourable Mem bers. Thank you very much.

COMMI TTEE CH ANGE S Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I would like to make some changes to the comm ittee for this evening. I move, seconded by the Member for Min nedosa (Mr . Gilleshammer), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows: Helwer for Burrel l; and Downey for Findlay. Th e Acting Speaker (Mr . Gaudry): Agr eed . The Honourable Memb er for Bran don East. ***** Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I just want to take a few moments to add a few remarks to this particular debate on the Interim Supply Bill before us.

This is an opportun ity to talk genera lly about Government fiscal policy and about the finances of the pr ovince as well as the economic situation which eventually affects the reve nue s and expen ditu res both of the provi ncial Government. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am par ticularly disappointed at the weak-kneed approach of this Gover nment to the goods and services tax. Instead of standing up boldly and strongly and saying no, no, no, to the Minister of Finance in Ottawa, and to Mr . Mulr oney and his Govern ment, here we are on the verge of setting up a joint administrative apparat us.

I know the reasonable answer will be given and has been given by the Minister of Finance (Mr . Man ness) and the Premier (Mr . Filmon): wel l, we do not want to have duplicating administrative services, why should we go thr ough all this hassle, and so on. Maybe some day eventually if that ever came to pass, said the Government, we may want to do that. In the meantime, Mr. Acting Speaker, the Government should be mor e aggr essive, more active in its opposition.

It is just not good enough to jus t mildly and meekly say, well, we are against the tax and we do not like the tax, and in the next breath say, but we are qu ite prepar ed to accom moda te the federal Government in the implementa tion. It is just not good enough.- (interjection)- Wel l, you have not said that. My under standing from statements of the Minister of Finance and the Premier is that this Government is ready to co-operate with the federal Gover nme nt in ensuring that ther e is an efficient collection system inasmuch as the federal Government has indicated it is interested in impleme nting the GST.

I do not want to put words in the Minister of Finance's mouth, but this is the impression I have, the impression that the people out there have. I want to take this oppor tun ity to register my disappointment, particularl y when we have so many Manitobans who are still fighting this. I mention in particular the Manitoba Society of Seniors who have called for a boycott on January 18 and 19, asking all Manitobans to participate in a historic pr otest to get the message to Mr .

Wilson and the federal Gover nment that this planned goods and services tax is unnecessary and is unfair, that it is going to hurt consumers in this province, that it is going to hurt the economy of the province. The Manitoba Society of Seniors can be joined in this and will be joined in this with organ izations such as the Anti- Poverty Association , the Mani toba Federat ion of Labour and many other organ izations, including business groups, I might add, Mr. Acting Speaker, who are upset with what is about to be imposed upon them.

I am particularly annoyed with this move by the federal Govern ment and the lack of sufficient opposition by this Government, because this tax is not an equitable type of tax. It is a tax that will take, propor tionately speaking, mor e mo ney from poor people rather than rich. I am

part icularly concerned because-a s we have tried to point out previously and I am going to take the opportun ity to repeat -the corporate income tax as a percentage of total income taxes taken by the federal Government from all sources, corp orate and pers onal, the cor porate percentage has dropp ed steadily over the last several years. Wher eas you could go b��k to 19 50, the corpor ate tax take was 37 percent, or you could go back to 19 64 it was 20 percent. Today or at least in 19 88, it is down to 9. 1 percent according to the information we have. Percentage-wise ther e are many reasons for this.

All I am repeat ing are the num bers. The fact is that in terms of a propor tion paid by the corpor ate sector, their proport ionate contribution has diminished. * (1 520) An Honourable Member: That is right. It means people are wealthier. Mr. Leonard Evans: I beg your pard on. An Honour able Mem ber: It means people have mor e wealth as individuals. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr .

Acting Speaker, when I look at the details of this-and the last figures we have were for the year 19 87-we find that there were 93,405 Canadian corpora tions which together made over $27 billion worth of profits and which did not pay one red cent of income tax. I think that is gr ossly unfair, not one penny for various reasons. An Honour able Mem ber: Did they escape tax or did they just not pay? Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, as far as I am concerned, they paid no tax. They paid no tax whatsoever and I 4034

Thur sday, December 21, 1989 am rem inded that at least in the United States they say to their corpora tions: regard less, you will pay a minimum corporate tax of 20 percent, regard less. I understand that if that Ameri can rule, which I think is a good rule, was appl ied to Canada the federal Government would be able to earn , I believe, something in the order of $5 billion or whatever. A substantial amount of money could be obtained by the federal Government if it simply adopted this American rule, a minimum tax of 20 percent on all corpor ations.

Included in those 93,000 plus corpora tions are all the banks of Canada, all the financial institutions. The banks have not paid one penny. In 19 87 which is the latest year that we have statistics from the Department of National Revenue- An Honourable Mem ber: Does that have anything to do with the Third World country losses? Mr. Leonard Evans: No, I do not think it has. An Honour able Mem ber: Oh, you do not. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I do not have that detail.

I am simply saying that it is a shame that the banks of this country which together, plus the other financial institutions including the trust companies and other loans and savings organ izations and so on, tallied a profit of $17 .7 billion collectively and did not pay a nickel, not a penny, not a penny on that. What we are suggesting, Mr . Acting Speaker, is this is one major area that the Government of Canada could look at in order to obtain needed reven ue to cover the expenditures at the federal level. There are-and the Minister of Finance (Mr .

Man ness) was speaking from his seat about the banks losing money in Third World countries. My information is that the banks made $2 billion worth of profits, just talking about the banks themselves- did not pay a nickel, did not pay a nickel. At any rate, if the Minister of Finance wants to defend the banks and the major corpor ations, go to it. I am going to defend the constituents of the Minister of Northern Affairs, the Memb er for Arthur (Mr . Downey). If he is not going to stand up for them, I am going to stand up for the seniors and for the others in the constituency of Arthur.

I am going to stand up for the Memb er's constituents who do not want the goods and services tax. Her e the Minister of Northern Affairs is part of a Government which is really not fighting this as they should. They should be fighting it to the bitter end. Some Honourable Memb ers: Oh, oh! The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Ord er, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: I would ask the Min ister responsible for senior citizens if he is going to join their boycott on January 18 and 19. I would ask him to join that boycott instead of going along with this Cabinet agreeing to implement a joint collection system on the GST.

This is just not adequate. (Mr . Speaker in the Chair) I would make another suggestion to the federal Governme nt and that is to look at their monetary policy. The mo netary policy that we have of high interest rates is slowing this economy down, it is hurting Canadian exports, and therefore, we have a monetary policy which is hurting our econom y, includi ng the Ma nitoba economy. For every point of additional interest rate, $1.5 billion is added to the Canadian deficit, $1.5 billion. I say here, therefore -(interjection)- Well, this is a fact. I did not make this calculation.

I have read about it and I am going to accept their estimate.- (interject ion) Well, you do not have to accept all estimates, but I will accept the fact that a higher interest rate adds to the national deficit. It has to. It is logical. It is a rational conclusion. An estimate is one point of additional rate of interest at the bank rate level which affects the entire structure of inter est rates, adds $1. 5 billion to the deficit. Therefore, Mr . Speak er , I want to register my disappointment with the Government not fighting this issue to the extent that it should.

I would also take this opportunity to say that I am disappointed that ther e are growing signs of economic recession in this country, and it is going to affect Ma nitoba. Unfortunately our farm economy has been we ak, because of the dr ought -(inter ject ion)- and because of other -w ell, Mr. Speaker, we get these stupid suggestions and interjec tions from the Minister of Nor thern Affairs (Mr . Downey). They are totally irrelevant. All he is doing is adding to my length of time. If he wants to continue to interrupt me, I will speak for the 40 minutes.

I was only going to speak for 10 or 15, but if he keeps it up I will be here for 40 minutes, no problem. The economy shows many signs of going into a recession. We have seen the latest figures of job losses, fewer people working this year compared to last year. Now we have the latest information on population. It is interesting to obs erve that, yes, indeed for many years we had population loss through interp rovincial migration. We did not always have loss on interprov incial migr ation.

There were some many years, there were years, in fact they were all NOP years, when the population actually increased and also when we did not lose any people on interp rovincial migration. They were all NOP years that there was no loss on interpr ovincial migration. Ther e was a net inflow in 19 82, a net inflow in 19 83, and 19 84 was mor e or less break even.

If is interesting that when you look at the numbers and you look at the population gr owth, and these are numbers that are available from Statistics Canada, that does quarterly surveys, that the population gr owth has been above average, either average or above average of the 10 pr ovinces during the NOP years. It is only in the Conservative years where the population gr owth rate seems to be below the Canadian average.

Certainly the last-I can check those figures a bit more, but certainly the last year or two, the last two years were ranking ninth out of 10 th. · The only other province that is in a worse situation than ourselves is the Province of Saskatchewan. Their 4035

Thur sday, December 21, 1989 rate of gr owth is 10 out of 10, but Manitoba's rate of population growth is nine out of 10, well below the average. As we look at this, Mr . Speaker, we can see that there is a pattern. We will have to research these figures a bit mo re, we will have to study them a bit mo re and just see what other implications there are. Virtually speaking our population is stagnating, our total population is stagnating because of the loss of people. Why do people go?

They go for a num ber of reasons, but the main reason is because there are more job oppor tunities outside of Ma nitoba than there are within the province. I say, therefore, this is a reflection on the amount of economic activity providing jobs for Ma nitob ans. If th ere are not enough jobs being pr ovided, people are going to look elsewhere. Certainly they are voting with their feet. They are moving with their feet and for 19 89 to date we have lost somewhere in the order of, by quick calculation, about seven or eight million people. In 19 88 we lost 9, 529 people on interprovi ncial migration.

This year 19 89 looks to be a record year, it will be higher than that. It is running around seven million already in the first three-quar ters -(interject ion)- seven thousand pardon me, thank you-7,0 00 in the first three-quarters. At any rate the fact is that we have a modest amount of international migration to offset this, and then of course we have the natural rate of increase, the births over deaths. The bottom line, Mr . Speaker, is that the Manitoba population is at the present time, and has been in the last year and a half or so, stagnating.

In fact in the fourth qua rter of la st year , 19 88, the population was even lower than it was in the third quarter, so from the third quarter to the fourth quarter there was an actual dr op in the level of people in Manitoba. * ( 15 30) You are looking at over the last couple of years, there is no quest ion but there is sta gnation, and tha t stagnation is indicative of the very slow type of economic gr owth we have in this province, and indeed lack of growth in ma ny parts of it.

As a matter of fact, I am sure we do not have the detailed breakdowns, but if you looked at these numbers on a reg ional basis within Manitoba you would see some regions, such as the Parkla nd, actually diminishing in population, and there are other areas as well of this province where you would see, in the rural areas, absolute depopula tion occurring wher e there are fewer people living ther e today than there were a couple of years ago, or five, or 10, or 15, or 20 years ago, for sure. So, Mr.

Speaker, what this boils down to-I would be the first one to recognize that it is not the provincial Government who can corre ct all the economic ills of this province. I used to say that in Govern ment, I said that in the Lyon years when we were on this side, I said it in Government in answer ing questions, and I say it again.

I mean , there are so ma ny factors that bear on the economic health of Manitoba, not least of which are national trends, North American ec onomic patterns, policies of the federal Government, what happens to our trad ing situation with our tra ding partners, particularly the United States. But having said all that, we still have to recognize that the provincial Government does play a role in this. The provincial Government can play an important mar ginal role and can make the difference in many areas in terms of stimulating the economy.

I guess this is where we have a basic philosophical difference because our approach said, okay, we should use the Government -I am repeating what Ed Schreyer used to say when he was Premier of Manitoba-th at we use the Government as an instrum ent to bring about the economic development, the economic gr owth that Manitobans want and use it as a positive institution that it is, a positive instrument. The spending and bor rowing ability of the province does bear on the financial situation of the province; it does bear on the economic situation of the province. I guess the Minister of Finance (Mr .

Man ness) and this side would say their philo sophy is the le ast Go ver nm ent is the best Go ver nment, the less Governme nt the better . Although I mus t say, Mr . Speaker, that with the Premier we have, he is doing his darn dest to keep down some of the reactionary people he has around him, and I am not going to name any names, who would really like to real ly hash, hack and slash, would real ly like to reduce health care spending substantially. They would really like to cut back on Child and Family services. They would really love to cut back on a lot of social programs.

They just do not go for it, but with their Premier saying, now take it easy boys, girls, take it easy ladies and gentlemen, we have to put forward; we are a minority gover nment; we have to be very careful here; we have to show a moderate face, and we have to remember there are a lot of people who live, particularly in Winnipeg and Brandon and the North and certain cities, who are not so happy when you talk about cutting back on social programs, or squeezing them, or keeping them. At any rate, Mr. Speaker, that is the philosophy I have heard from time to time expressed on the other side.

The less Government the better Government.- (interject ion)- Well, if the Minister is saying that you do not believe in that, you really believe mor e Government is better. I am not sure what you are saying. My impression is that you would rather have lower level expenditures, lower level of taxes and gener ally take a position, the trul y small "c", big "C" Conservative position, where the Government steps back and plays a more passive role. Our position has been that, no, let us use the Government as an instrument to stimulate the economy and, if necessary, have job and training programs when necessary.

They are not the solution. They are not a total solution by any means, but they can help in certain specific areas for limited periods of time. I guess, to some extent, this Government has recognized this because for all the negative comments you made about the job pr ograms you still have them. In the Minister of Education and Training Estimates right here, there are a couple of million dol lars; it is less than the mon ies last year or the year before, but 4036

Thu rsday, December 21, 19 89 the money is still there. If you really did not believe in it, I suppose it would be zero, absolutely zero. You cannot criticize jobs, and training-on-the-job pr ograms that we talked about, and which we built up under the Manitoba Jobs f'.und, and say they are totally wrong. If they are totally wrong why are you spending, why are you asking us to spend a few million doll ars on it? That is what I would like to know. Having said that, I recognize that you have cut it back. I guess that is the modest, moderate appro ach that the Premier (Mr .

Filmon) wants to take at this time in a minority Gover nment situation. Mr . Speaker, I am not pr epared to go into any mor e detail. We could, we could speak about a lot, but since the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) is not ther e to, sort of, urge me on to be mor e eloquent at gr eater length , I guess I will be much more br ief in my remarks. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I would really hope and urge that the Government would be mor e active and aggressive in fighting the GST. What I would real ly like- I would love to see the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr .

Downey) to go out and go to bat and help them to get the message out for the boycott-g et the boycott. I have talked to several hundr ed seniors in my riding the last couple of days, I was with many hundreds of seniors the last couple of days in my riding. They are all very keen on this January the 18 and 19. I could not think of a better Christmas present for the Minister responsible for Seniors to give them, to say to the sen ior s- phone up Al Lov eridge, the President and say, I am Minister responsible for Seniors' affairs in the pr ovincial Government. I am going to do what I can to help you sponsor this.

All we are asking is to make people aware of January 18 and 19 as being the day of the boycott, that is all that they are asking for. We would like people to stop spending as well, but that is all they want. Well, Mr . Speaker, I do not consider it-i t is politics in the broad est sense. It is politics in the sense that in the political arena we are having to fight the federal Govern ment. Mr .

Speaker, I have talked to hundreds of them and I do not think, when I say I support this and I would want to see the provincial Government do something to help them -I do not believe it for one mome nt-th ey did not think that was a bad appr oach. They thought that was a rather good approach. That is my disappointment. It would be gr eat if the Minister of Seniors could say, yes, we have a Christmas present for them. I am going to stand up now and tell them that we are going to stand shoulder to shoulder with the seniors of this province, and fight the federal Government on this.

When this gets to comm ittee stage we may have some more things to say in detail, but for the mom ent I guess we will conclude our remarks. Thank you. QUEST ION put, MOT ION carried. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair for the House to resolve into a Committee of the Whole to consider and repor t on Interim Supply Bill-o n Bill No. 90, The Interim Appr opriation Act , 19 89 (2); Loi no 2 de 19 89 portant affectation anticipee de credits for third reading.

MO T ION presente d and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider Bill No. 90, with the Honourable Mem ber for Minnedosa (Mr . Gilleshammer) in the Chair. COMM ITTEE OF THE WHOLE BILL NO. 90-T HE INTERIM APPRO PRIA TION ACT, 1989

(2) Mr. Deputy Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): The Comm ittee of the Whole will come to order to consider Bill No. 90, The Interim Appropriation Act, 19 89 (2). Does the Honour able Minister of Finance have an opening statement? * (1 540) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Deputy Chairman , I do have an opening introduction. I am prepar ed to read into the record, if Mem bers want, specifically the mean ing of all the sections listed in the Bill.

However, if it is the wish that I not read that in fuller explanation-it would take me roughly about 10 minutes to do so-i f it is wished, then I will submit the copy of the text to the Clerk. That can be presented as read into the reco rd-w hatever the Mem bers wish. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Does the Finance Critic for the official Opposition have a statement? The Mem ber for Transcona. Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman. The Minister's offer to table his explanation, clause by clause, of the text of the Bill is quite satisfactory to us. We have no further open ing statement. Mr.

Allan Patterson (Radisson): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I would just like to take this oppor tunity, in addressing this Bill, to address a few questions to the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board (Mr . Connery), seeing that this opportunity was inadvertently sidetr acked dur ing Estimates. Firstly, I would like to acknowledge the dedication and the work tha t the board itself has undertaken in the past year in addressing many of the problems internally, which do not require any legislation.

The Minister and the board have been very co-operative in keeping us informed of the steps that they have taken and what they plan for the future. But neve rthele ss, Mr . Deputy Chai rman , some problems still remain and we will, while acknowledging the thrust that the legislation and the internal changes and reorgan ization are taking, be continuing to monitor the prog ress that is being made, particularly in the light 4037

Thur sday, December 21, 19 89 of calls that we do still get, although not in as gr eat a volume as heretofore. We will obviously be holding the Minister to account. Could the Minister inform us just what prog ress has been made, say, in the past couple of months, given that we missed the opportun ity to address much of this during the Estimates some weeks ago? Could he just bring us up-to-date on the ongoing prog ress and any further changes that have been implemented in the past few months, during the fall? Hon.

Edward Conn ery (Minister responsible for The Workers Comp ensation Act): I thank the Mem ber for Radisson (Mr . Patterson), the Liberal Critic for Workers Compensation. I can say that he has been a responsible Mem ber, and we have had good commun ication, and we have co-operated between myself and him and the board very closely. Where I do show my indignation and my frustration and my anger is toward the New Democra tic Party and the critic, the Memb er for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton), for his irresponsibility.

When we had an opportun ity in Estimates to discuss Workers Compensation, their Party refused to ask a question, and tha t Memb er never even sho wed up in th at committee once to ask a question. In fact, I saw him in the hall- ***** Mr. Deputy Chairman: The Honour able Mem ber for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton), on a point of order . Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr . Deputy Chairpers on, I think I have already stated for the record that I was in the Health Comm ittee Estimates.

If the Minister would refrain from the personal attacks, I think we could probabl y get into a numb er of questions which I do have on Workers Compensation. I would suggest that perhaps he keep his remarks rele vant to the questions that are put by comm ittee Mem bers. It might assist the function of the committee. Mr. Deputy Chairman: A dispute over the fact is not a point of order. The Honour able Minister. ***** Mr. Conner y: The Honourable Memb er for Thompson feels silly, feels incompetent, and he is. He should feel ashamed for letting down injured workers. What did he say when I asked him in the hall?

He said, we have mor e important things to discuss than the Workers Com pensation. That is what he said to me in the hall. ***** Mr. Deputy Chairman: The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson (Mr . Ashton), on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr . Deputy Chairpers on, our roles are quite clear in terms of the fact that Mem bers should be truthful in statements they make before the House. The statement that the Memb er just made is a comp lete and absolute fabrication, and I would ask him to withdraw that.

First of all, it is not in order for the Member to be recrea ting discussions that are held outside of the Chamber . Second of all, it is not in order for him to put incorrect information on the record. I would suggest, once again, Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, that you ask him to come to order and answer the question, a very specific question, that was asked by the Liberal Mem ber, and not engage in this rather pointless and petty mudslinging. Mr. Deputy Chairman: The Honourable Mem ber does not have a point of order, but I believe the Minister should respond to the question that has been put.

The Honour able Minister. ***** Mr. Con nery: Thank you. The Memb er knows very well that in Workers Compensation, there was an opportunity afforded this House at five o'clock of the Monday afterno on. When inadvertently my salar y was passed and I came back at eight o'clock to discuss the Estimates of Workers Compensation, the Liberals were here wanting to ask questions and-b y leave of the House we can do anything in this House-w e wanted to revert back to Workers Compensation. The Leader of the New Democratic Party said, no, you passed the Minister's Salary, and refused to go ba ck. So, Mr .

Deputy Chairman, there is a place and a time to do it, and that was in Estimates time. The Mem ber for Elmw ood (Mr . Maloway) wasted two and a half hours. The Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) was here, and as a matter of fact, brought it up that the Mem ber for El mwood was wasting the House's time, and we did not get into the Workers Comp. Mr. Deputy Chairman- Mr. Patterso n: It is not a point of order , Mr . Deputy Chairman, but if the Honour able Mem bers will indulge me for a moment, the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) is under some time constraints and the Mem ber for Brandon East (Mr .

Leonard Evans) has some questions he wishes to put to him, and I would be glad to yield the floor to them for such time as they take to clean up their- Mr. Con nery: I thought it should be put on the record , the facts of the irresponsibility of the Mem ber for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton). Mr . Deputy Chairman, let me tell you that at Workers Compensation we have some 300 dedicated emplo yees that are wor king very, very hard to bring the Workers Compensation up to where it should be. It is not there yet. I make the comment that we are not satisfied that we have the operation running as efficiently as it will.

It takes time, but we are making that sort of progr ess. I think the telephones are answered much mor e quickly now, you do not have that long delay in the turnover. There is a- not an intercept -a group now that is reacting very quickly to ones that have very obviously no contention as to the injury, that it happened in the workpla ce. About 45 percent of the repor ted time-loss claims are responded to within about two weeks. At the comm issioner level, the final appeal, we are down to where a person wanting to register an appe al, can 4038

Thur sday, December 21, 1989 do so within a week or two. That is being cleaned up. We still have at the review level, which is, adjudication is first, then there is review, and the appeal. At the review level there is still a bubble of backlog that has not been brougl)t to the time frame that we think is appropria te during the tra ining pro cess of a lot of the people. It takes some time. The adjudicators take time to tr ain. You just do not hire somebody off the street. There is no program for training adjudicators. We have to do it at the Workers Comp.

They took some of the competent people from review to help train some of the new adjudictors, and that created a bit of the bubble in review. So it is flowing and it has improved tremendously since we took office. With Graham Lane, we have a superb CEO. We have in place a good administrative staff; they have been adding to it. A couple of the people from the "I" team have been hired on- Karn Sandy, for instance, an excellent administr ator for us, doing a good job. Give us another year and we hope to have all of the fine details moving very, very quickly.

I think basically that is where we are. * (1 550) We also have, as the Mem ber for Radisson (Mr . Patterson) knows, a new emplo yment services office on Portage Avenue out close to the Weir Building, for which I gave him a packet of information, along with the Member for Thompson (Mr . Ashton), to review, to see what we are doing in the emplo yment services. That is for injured workers, to find them an appropria te job, or to get them into tra ining that can train them for another job if they cannot go back to their pr evious em ployment. So that is the opportunity that we are affording them.

There have been significant numbers of staff brought on to facilitate the handling of claims, the adjudication of claims. Previously the workl oad was so high, people were working overtime. They were tired. We are bringing that down. I have talked to the union leader, Dave Cutler, at Workers Comp-t hey are quite happy with the prog ress that is being made-and with the CUPE rep from the local; the first time that ever has happened, that Government has consulted with the union and is consulting with the workers at the lower level, to make this operat ion functional.

They are very pleased that they are part of the solution. That is so important, because every person that is over there is part of the sol ution, and th ose 30 0-plus people are work ing dedicatedly to bring it in. Are ther e mor e questions or is that it? Mr. Leonard Evans (Br andon East): Mr . Deputy Chairman, I understand the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) has certain time constraints so I am quite pr epared to get up- Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, there is a competition going here, so- Mr.

Deputy Chairman, the report of the Brandon General Hospital Peer Review Committee was just released. I only obtained a copy of it a short while ago, and I have not had an opportun ity to study it at any length and any depth. Ther e is one or two points that have caught my mind, and I would like to ask the Minister who set up this comm ittee earlier this year to look at the question of various things which have been happening, such as seasonal closure of beds, and so on. We have been waiting for this report.

I note in particular that the Peer Review Comm ittee recommends a reduction in the number of acute care beds at the Brandon General Hospital. I wondered if the Minister could elaborate on this. Is he aware of this recomm endation in the report? I would imagine he is. Is he in agreement with this recom mendation? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Deputy Chairman, my honourable friend, I know, is wanting answers on the report. I just want to offer my honourable friend a bit of a caution before he maybe makes his weekend news in the Brandon Sun and the radio stations and television stations.

This report is the first time that ever a problem at an institution such as the Brandon General Hospital has been dealt with in this fashion. What we did is that, instead of having the usual shooting war in public with Government saying one thing, and the hospital and various components of the hospital saying different thi ngs, the only losers being the pu blic in not un ders tanding what the issues are, we struck a comm ittee. Mr. Deputy Chairman, the comm ittee we called a Peer Review Comm ittee.

It was chaired by the executive director of the Misericordia General Hospital, had mem bersh ip in terms of health professionals from the system, in addition to the chief medical director of the Brandon Gener al Hospital, the executive director of the Hospital, the director of Nursing of the Brandon General Hospital and citizens at large from Bra ndon. Those individuals sat down to deal with issues which have been facing the Brandon General Hospital over a four-year period of time in

part icular, to try without the normal public battles which occur from time to time, to try to focus in on the problem, to tr y to make recommenda tions to Government for consideration by Government and the Board of the Brandon General Hospital. The recommendations which were made there were made unanimously by a committee involving substantive mem bership from the Brandon General Hospital. That is, indeed, Brandon General Hospital's p1:1rticipation in the recom mendation, including the one my honour able friend refers to.

If my honourable friend takes time to read the report, he will find that some of the admitting patterns and some of the issues which come out of that review point to the need to address certain management pr actices within the Brandon General Hospital. He will also note in there that it is pointed out by the Peer Review Comm ittee that for four years some funding re commenda tions to Gover nment have not been followed. I am trying to be very balanced in my appr oach here. I am not saying it is the hospital 's fault, or the 4039

Thu rsday, December 21, 1989 Govern ment's fault, or any particular individual's fault. Before my honourable friend picks in isolation what will make juicy news for the weekend in Brandon, he ought to consider the format, the pr ocess and the involvement of Brandon Gener al Hospital to come to those recommenda tions. Those recommenda tions will from now on be dealt with by the commission and the Ministry of Health and the board in management of the Brandon Gener al Hospital to determine the course of action, to determine what is doable.

The issue of the acute care beds is very important in terms of carrying on and furthering the redevelopment plan that has been basically on hold at Brandon General Hospital for a decade. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could tell us to what extent there will be a reduction in acute care beds. First of all, I gather from what he is sayi ng, he is accepting the recomm endations of the comm ittee, so he is agreeing that ther e should be a cut or a reduction in the number of acute care beds in the Brandon General Hospital, which is a reg ional hospital in Westman.

If that is the case, could he indicate what kind of a cut he is looking at and obviously there will be some savings of money, I presume, because of that cut. Has he any idea what is involved in terms of num bers of beds and dollars saved? Mr. Orchard: Now I know where my honour able friend is coming from. He wants his headline in Brandon this weekend that Govern ment is going to cut beds at the Brandon General Hospital. Mr . Deputy Chairman, that would be a false allegation for my honour able friend, the Memb er for Brandon East (Mr . Leonard Evans) to ma ke.

Before he goes off to make his weekend news, I strongly suggest to my honour able friend that he sit down with the chairman of the board of Brandon General Hospital, the executive director, the chief of medical staff, Dr. Taylor, and the director of nursing in the Brandon General Ho spital to find out the backg round on tha t rec ommenda tion which the y concurred in entirely. Before my honourable friend attempts to harness wh atever cheap politics he choo ses to put out, Government has not made any decisions in terms of this report. * (1 600) ***** Mr.

Deputy Chairman: The Honour able Memb er for Osborne, on a point of order . Mr. Fleg Alcock (Oppsition House Leader): The debate at this moment calls for people with legitima te questions, about problems in this pr ovince, to be described as cheap politics. I would ask that the Minister withdraw that. Mr. Deputy Chairman: The Mem ber does not have a point of order . The Honourable Minister of Health. ***** Mr. Orchard: I know that my honourable friend was em bar rassed by his 19 83 response in terms of youth trea tment, wherein he did not care for them then and tr ies to appear to care now.

I do not want to get into that issue. I simply want to tell my honourable friend, the Memb er for Brandon East (Mr . Leonard Evans), that Government has neither accepted nor rej ected any of the recommendations in that report. I am pointing out to my honourable friend, before he makes his weekend news, to talk to the Brandon General Hospital to find out whether they are satisfied with the process of consultation, discussion, with the attempt to bring to a reasonable series of recommendations issues that have plagued the hospital for four years now.

Four years, that I might rem ind my honourable friend, two and a half of which he was the senior Cabinet Minister rep resenting the interest

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-96
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 96.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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