-·· ... _ .. . -- t -.- ... ~ ~---,~ ; ~- PRELIHINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 18, 1977

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1609 Page 1 - ms The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, p 1 ease! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as all members of the han. House are aware, the strike at the Waterford has now entered its ninth ,, · ~ek. The recent discussions between the Waterford Hospital workers, as represented by. NAPE, and Treasury Board during the first week in April have ended without success.

These discussions were facilitated by the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations •t~ho had made an all-out attempt in settling the dispute at the hospital. I am disappointed today in bringing the House up to date to indicate that these talks did break off and there appears once again to be a stalemate between the two opposing sides. It may be useful, Sir, if I outlined to the han. House some of the history of the strike at the Waterford Hospital in prder to bring the House up to date after our Easter break.

On January 21, 1977 government offered revised pension benefits to certain categories of employees in patient care who were employed at the Wateford Hospital prior to January 1, 1960 and who had been employed there continuously since that date~ This initial proposal provided far optional retirement when an employee•s age plus service equalled eighty. And the accural rate · for service prior to 1967 was changed from one and three-quarter per cent to two per cent per annum. There were sixty-nine employees who would have been able to avail of those benefits, twenty-four of these immediately.

The union rejected'this proposal. They were all_ ~he union people- all in that unit , no management people. -· .__.

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1609 Page 2 - ms Mr. Doody. On March 9,government in an attempt to reach a settlement on the pension issue revised the offer to cover empl~yees in the relevant patient care positions who were on staff prior to January 1, 1965, instead of 1960 as in the previous offer. This brought. the coverage under the special pension arrangement up to eighty-six employees, an additional se~enteen. In addition,the basis of calculating pension entitlement was changed from a five year average salary to a three year average salary.

This resulted in improvements in the annual pension benefit in the order o:f $6oo-=-~i7~ciQ_ 0 ~-~ - thP prPvinH~ offer. In addition to the pension benefits, Mr. Speaker, government has offered contract proposals on all other issues based on the agreement in effect for other hospitals-in the Province. The one exception was a provision rel~ting to double shifts. But this provision has been different for the Waterford in its previous collective agreements. The union to date has refused to discuss or consider any of these proposals.

In a further attempt then to resolve the strike situation,government offered arbitration on the pensions issue, only with a special arbitrator,and the pensions issue only,with a special arbitrator to conduct a detailed analysis of the Waterford and the situation in other similar hospitals in Canada. The union rejected this idea.

In our most recent attempt at a settlement, government reluctantly, through the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations,has offered arbitration to the union on the outstanding monetary items in addition to the standing offer for arbitration on pensions. !~e took the step, Sir, very reluctantly because of the repercussions that arbitration has from a practical point of view of committing a government to a settlement which would be beyond their control and in the hands of an arbitrator.

Nevertheless we felt that the situation at the Wateford Hospital was serious enough to warrant -·-- - - - . . ::....--;..~ -·

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1609 Page 3 - ms Mr. Boody. us making this 1 as t-di tch: attempt of having the union return to work and allowing an arbitrator to reach a reasonable binding settlement on the pensions and mon~t~. fY _ issues. Let me read into the record, Sir, my letter of April 5, 1977 to the Honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations regarding my approach to the settlement, a proposed settlement. It reads as follows, Sir: ,.Reference, Waterford Hospital.

Further to our discussion of today regarding the situation at the Waterford Hospital I wish to confirm to you the approach that I am suggesting with respect to a possible settlement for the dispute. Government is prepared to reconfirm its willingness to submit the whole pension issue as it relates to employees at the hospital to binding arbitration.

We would like to see the arbitrator granted ~id~ _ terms of reference which might read something as follows: The arbitrator to look into the pension benefit package as it implies to employees at the Waterford Hospital and to decide upon the type of pension plan which should exist for the employees at that institution, keeping in mind, (1) facilities at the Waterford Hospital; (2) the working conditions of employees at the ' Waterford Hospital now and in the past; (3) ·' - ----- --- . - - ~ ~ .=--- ~:::": . - ~-

April 18, 1977 Tape 1610 IB-1 ¥R.

DOODY: the physical and emotional strain imposed on employees at the Waterford Hospital by the nature of their duties as ~ompared to those imposed in other hospitals and institutions; (4) the ~v-orking conditions and pension benefits in institutions in Canada similar to the Haterford Hospital; (5) the relationship between a pension plan for the Waterford Hospital employees and those of employees of other hospitals;-(_~)_ the imP.act of separating out a reiatively small group of employees as being special and different and allowing them to have separate pension rights as compared to other e~ployees in the rest of the hospital service. 11 We would envisage that the arbitrator ~muld be expected to spend a considerable amount of time in doing up his report and realize the choice of an arbitrator is extremely important.

We would agree that the arbitration should not proceed unless both sides agree on the selection of the arbitrator and we would not insist on any time limit in this respect. 'A)'e would also agree to the need for a person of national reputation, and the sort of names - -which come to mind would be Judge Emmett 'Rall,Judge Nathan Green or Hr. Innis Christie : These are people who have a national reputation in the labour relations fieldt and if they were prepared to perform the duties of arbitrator in this case and were able to devote enough time to --it, we would be pleased to agree to such type of person.

We I ~rould of course be prepared to mutually explore any nominees \vhich the union might propose. Likewise,should the idea of an arbitration broad be more appealing to the union,we would favourably disposed to following such a course of action. ''In addition to reaffirming our agreement tc binding arbitration on the pension, we are prepared to submit the monetary items to the same arbitration process. In my view in order to allow the arbitrator as much time as possible to concentrate on the pension issue,we should limit the monetary items to salaries and contact pay.

Of course,we have to keep in mind that under the present circumstances

April 18, 1977 Tape 1610 IB-2 }fR. DOODY: .---:- government and the union are subject to the Anti- .Inflation Board. - - . ~ In order to facilitate the arbitration process government is prepared ::.:----,~ ~ - to use its best efforts in supporting the results of the binding arbitration before the Anti-Inflation Board if indeed the arbitrator decided to rule on a total compensation package which appeared to be in excess of the AIB guidelines.

Obviously we would not be in any position to break our agreement with the Government of Canada,but I would like to reiterate that ~·re would use every effort in supporting the decision of the binding arbitration where this support could be given within the confines of present legislation. "We would make these proposals predicated on the agreement by the union to return to work after the method of proceeding to arbitration has been agreed upon. He would be willing to meet with you and with your officials at any time in order to iron out the details:' Signed by me as President of Treasury Boara and a copy to Mr.

Pratt, Chairman of the Waterford Hospital Board. Mr. Speaker, the union has not accepted this latest approach and at this point in time I am really at a loss to understand why they have rejected it and what further steps can be taken to settle the strike. Our offer for arbitration on pensions and monetary issues is in my opinion infinitely better than any arbitration which may result from legislation,since we have in our offer suggested to the union that the arbitrator be a person of national or international reputation and also indicated that the union must agree to his nomination.

In other words,there will be no time limit on the choosing of the arbitrator and at no time if it is difficult to reach agreement will government intercede an,d have the Lieutenant Governor in Council appoint the arbitrator. It seems to me that hen. members on both sides of the House as well the individual members of the bargaining unit at the Waterford Hospital will agree that there is little else that government can do. I reiterate that \o7e are at a cotTiplete loss to understand the attitude of the union and we are extremely disappointed that they have not seen

April 18, 1977 Tape 1610 IB-3 MF .• DOODY: fit to accept this position which in my opinion is a very major and significant concession for government to have made. We are also disappointed that NAPE have not seen fit to ask the general membership to vote on the matter. Indeed we recently learned of a decision of the executive of the Haterford Hospital unit of NAPE to deny a reauest for a membership meeting of the local to discuss and vote upon the latest government offer. I understand that the reauest for a meeting was submitted to the union branch executive over the signatures of some fifty members of the unit.

Under the NAPE constitution and by-laws a minimum of twenty signatures is sufficient to require that a meeting be called. The NAPE local executives refusal to call the meeting appears to be a violation of the union's own constitution and I hQpe that they will reverse any such decision which may have been made. l!:R. NEARY: It was a good statement up to that point but they are interferring with the internal wo;rkings of the union. Up to that point it was a good statement. MR. DOODY: I call upon Mr. Locking and the executive of the NAPE Waterford unit to allow the membership to vote on this proposal by government.

And I would ask the members of this hon. House to reasonably and responsibly support me in this reauest to the leaders of the bargaining unit so that the people at the Waterford Hospital may be given a right t~ vote·on·whether or not "they want to return to work and whether or not they want to accept our proposed arbitration package, . -­... - : - - I ,. :.:...·----::,...~ ~ -

April 18,1977 Tape 1611 Al!-1 MR. DOODY: because now the strike has lasted for almost nine weeks. It appears to me that those who are suffering the most are . -- ; - - .. those who have been out without pay cheques for that amount of time. MR. NEARY: Crocodile Tears. HR. DOODY: These are. the people. who should be given the right to decide, Sir. I should also maKe it clear to this hon. House that government believes that many of those on strike may wish to return to work, and many have indicated their ./ intention to the management at the hospital.

We are encouraged that employees are taking . this attitude and it makes the denial of a general membership meeting even more deplorable. MR. NEARY: You are going to break up the union. That is the idea! MR. DOODY: In order to clear up any misunderstandings that may have arisen over recent statements regarding employees returning to work, let me insure all Waterford workers that they will not loose their jobs for .returning to work while others of their unit remain on strike.

I would stress that NAPE does not have the right nor the authority either directly or indirectly to dismiss any government or hospital employee from his position. The right to hire and dismiss employees rests with the Board of Hanagement of the hospital and they have assured us that no employee will be removed from his job for crossing a picket line and returning to work. My main concern at this point in time is to settle the strike.

It is clear that government and not the union have continued to make attempts at ending the strike and allowing the employees to go back to work, and our latest attempt is one that should be acceptable to both sides. It is to no one's advantage for this strike to continue and once again I call upon Hr. Locking and the executive of the NAPE Waterford unit, and indeed the executive of the NAPE union, to be reasonable and responsible and put this latest position to the membership. I am sure that all members of this

April 18,1977 Tape 1611 AH-2 MR. DOODY: hon House will await the reply of NAPE. Thank You, Hr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Conception Bay South. . MR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, I rise in connection with the statement that was delivered by the hon. member. The situation within the Waterford Hospital now is on~ of great frustration as I am sure the minister knmvs.

Feelings are running very high and surely all of us are aware of the fact that when you are into - I believe the ninth week of a strike situation, where people have their mortgage payments, food to buy, heat and light and all the rest, that people can be pretty, pretty touchy, with themselves, with the government, or whoever the employer might be. It has been suggested, for example,to some of us, by some members of the union that - and perhaps the minister could nod or tell me is I am right or wrong.

Did the union in fact offer arbitration to the government some time back - nine weeks ago, eight weeks ago, seven weeks ago, and did the government refuse? Uo. MR. DOODY: No.There was no discussion of arbitrat~on to the point mentioned here. MR. NOLAN: I see. MR. DOODY: It was repugnant to both sides. MR. NOLAN: No. I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, that there have been members of the union who have told me that they offered binding arbitration,or arbitration of some kind weeks ago and that the government, in fact,turned it down. Now there is another matter.

Usually when you have a situation like this, it is normal to have a sort of an arms length negotiation going on. But what the strikers in there .. --- - . ) , . ::.....--"':-·-_-. . ~ -

April 18,1977 Tape 1611 AH-3 MR. NOLA.."'': are faced with right now -as I am sure the minister knows, -· -- ; - - . , is,one,employees of the Province, the policemen,for example, who are in there working; second~y you have members of the Civil Service, including members of the Treasury Board in there,allegedly as volunteers,working; and here you have the same people who are sitting in - I would think on the negotiations. I mean if you have members of Treasury Board who are actually working out in that hosp~tal, it seems to me that .I would not have gone that route.

I would rather have people who are somewhat removed from it, if they are the ones who are actually involved in the negotiations. The very, very sad thing about this apparantly is that we hav~ now come to the point - i~ is all very well for the minister to st~te his case, as in fact he should. But we do not have the union's side of it here in this House,and here again the only one apparently, rightly or wrongly,that the union would look upon to voice th'E'ir case, for example, in opposition to anything that the minister might say, is from~say, this side of the House.

And they feel that, you know, the government as the employer has the right to issue offical statements and something in the House of Assembly. So we have,I might say, not heard directly that I am aware of from anyone directly in the union on this matter in the last twenty-four or forty-eight hours, unless the member for Terra-Nova might have heard from some one directly in this regard, but I have not. The thing is that it is a sad thing to see. There is something here I am not suggesting that the minister is not telling all, but I would suggest to him that if Mr.

Locking or any other member of the executive were here in the House this afternoon, they may have something somewhat different to say other than what the han. minister

April 18,1977 Tape 1611 AH-4 HR. NOLA."N' : has stated. , . .-- . - - ; MR. NEARY: The han. minister's statement ~.;rould have been -.:.....-----~ better not said, believe me. It was provocative: HR. UOL\N: ::ow the other

April 18, 1977 Tape 1612 PK - 1 Mr. J. Nolan: ' - - . , _situation _i_s t~is _ : _ ~lle Mayor _of St. Joh~s ~ffered to apparently negotiate and mediate on this situation. Now the Mayor has in past weeks or months, as37ou know, settled a very controversial strike, the bus strike,namely,in St. John's, and I am really surprised why - I understand that the minister and his Treasury Board officials have merely scorned the -offer of Her Worship the -./ ·- Mayor to media-te. The minister did not address himself to this in his statement. Why di~he not accept?

I mean,is he to give us to believe that all wisdom regarding union negotiations must of necessity teside in this building? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I draw to the han. gentleman's - -attention that he is now breaching the rule which would prohibit debate. MR. NOLAN: Very good, Mr. Speaker. Now the other thing is is the reference that our friend makes from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and that is to the provocativeness regarding - there is a h~nt here - you could very easily look at the statement in part which would indicate that, you know, the old divide and conquer.

Sure there is some unhappiness within the union, of course there is unhappiness in all union whenever they are nine weeks out on strike, and if you had light bills, heat bills, rent, mort~ages falling behind you would be unhappy too • MR. NEARY: ••••• getting the members back to work. MR. NOLAN: But _ t~~_thi~g is if there is any suggestion by the government that they are trying to break this union,they are going to cause one heck of a problem for themselves before the thing is over, and this is not the way to go at it in my opinion.

It will be interesting to se~ how the officials within the union reply to the statement as tabled by the minister. But there is something not right here that we are obviously missing~ This strike has gone on far too long. I can never accept the fact that those people who are not used to psychatric

April 18, 1977 Tape 1612 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: . --- training and so on can do as good a job as ca~ those who are trained. . - . ; To say that there is not a special situation there in the hospital is obviously contradictory by the government in that they found it necessary to put the policemen in there.

So this will have to stand for the moment because it is going to be interesting to see how the union reply and particularly to the suggestion here~as our ho.n. friend indicates~of any possibility of splitting this union down · the middle ; in taking .advantage of people who are unfortunately, in a most unfortunate position at this moment with our income cut substantially. So we will be commenting on this one later. also;- Mr. Speaker, in future days as the strike continues, which by the way we· hope it will not. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for-- Bellevue. MR.

W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition .....__-==-on behalf of I approximately 20~voters in the communit~es of Hillview, Hatchet Cove and St. Jones Within. Mr.

Speaker, last~ October or around there, September or October, a contract was awarded for road work, ~: ·It · invoived -·road work in Southwest Arm -down.--around l:odges Cove, Gooseberry Cove, Southport,and as a part of that same contract to the same company was the construction of a new access road from the TCH down through Hillview cutting off the use of two existing roads around Hillview to the Trans-Canada, and of course hopefully that would be an access road to the Trans-Canada not only for the residents of Hillview but also from Hatchet Cove and St. Jones Within. Mr.

Speaker, the prayer of this petition is as follows: We the residents of Hillview, Hatchet Cove, and St. Jones Within feel that the proposed site for the new road through Hillview will not serve the people of the above named communities any better than the old !cad now, We will still have the problem of a hill to be faced with during the Winter as we do now. We feel that the old

April 18, 1977 Tape 1612 PK - 3 Mr. Callan: Cabot Highway that is now cut off by the Trans-Canada Highway, and 7 ... - ~ ) it leads to Clarenville,should be reopenede ·

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1613 Page 1 - ms Mr. Callan. Lt would save the government a lot of money and would serve us better. P·lease look into this matter and see if something can be done about it, 11 is the last sentence in the prayer of the petition. Mr. Speaker, I said that a contract was awarded for this work last September or October. I know it was fairly late in the year. I think the reason for that is probably quite obvious.

The district of Bellevue is the second largest district in the Province as far as the number of communities, and there are a large number of communities which have no upgraded or paved roads and the ~~n _or_Eoz~ ~ communities around Hillview, down in Southwest Arm, of course, are examples of that. Even though the contract was awarded last Fall the work did not commence until Monday of h.st week, a \'leek ago. And here we have, Mr.

Speaker, over 200 residents of these communities which are affected by this new access road, .here we have over 200 who are protesting to the House of Assembly1 and of course the Department of Transportation and Communications,asking that the job that has been tendered and so on and has been let that this not be done, but they have offered an alternate solution to the problem at Hillview. Mr.

Speaker, the question that I wonder about here, and the question that I would like for the Minister of Transportation and Communications to answer,if and when he decides to speak on this petition is: Why is it that the local residents, the people who should know most about what .,.,ould be best for their community and so on, why the local residents are not consulted sometimes?

I remember last year standing in this House of Assembly, when a lot of other members were criticizing the government for its white paper on snowmobiling regulations and so on, I stood in this House and I said that I think it is a good thing, this what we need more of, participation from . . ..-- . .. .. . - . ~ - . ..:.... -----~

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1613 Page 2 - ms Mr. Callan. the residents who know more about these things than somebody perhaps who sits down here in -an office in the Confederation Building or elsewhere. I remember, Mr. Speaker, about three years ago, I think it was, and perhaps it was fou~when Mr.

Jim Reid was the member for Trinity South, he came out in the Spring of the year, after the budget was brought down, and he called a meeting and he said to these people gathered, "I have so many hundreds of thousands of dollars for road work for this area of my district, 'Nhere waul d you 1 ike to have the money spent and how'2" MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: Well that is the way the man talked, Mr. Speaker.

The question that I would like to ask is: Why is it not possible for the Department of Transportation and Communications to decide, well we will allocate a half a million dollars for road work in the district of Bellevue, say, and then the member for the district, as Mr. Reid was the member for Trinity South at that time, called a meeting at Bellevue as a matter of fact after which the district gets it name - MR. RIDEOUT: Because you are a Liberal now. MR.

CALLAN: - why is it not possible for me or at least the residents who are affected by whatever the -government plans to do, why are they not given the opportunity to have some input and some say into what happens in their communities? MR. DOODY: You would start the Third World War down in - MR. CALLAN: This petition, Mr. Speaker, I think has a lot of merit, and I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Transportation and Communications ~tlill speak on it whether it is in support or whatever. - Mr.

Speaker, I thoroughly support the prayer of the petition and I ask that this petition be referred to the department to which it relates. , A __ ... .

April 18, 1977 Tap.e no. 1613 Page 3 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister ~f Transportation and Cormnunications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the petition - how many residents signed the petition? MR. CALLAN: Two hundred. MR. MORGAN: Two hundred residents of Hillview, Hatchet Cove and St. Jones· within . ·--==.- Mr.

Speaker, I find it rather amazing that this petition is coming forward saying the people of the area are not being consulted prior to government spending money in the area, because the tenders that were ca 11 ed 1 as t year - and as I maybe point out, called the Liberal district as well,despite the arguments from the other side in the House of Assembly, there is no work being done in Liberal districts - but this tender was called last Fall, Mr. Speaker, upon the request, not of · ·· ; - - . ,. ,_-_v::; : --

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1614 NM- 1 MR. MORG~~: the member for the area so much,who was also making representations_~sure he was. That is his job as MHA. for the area- but representations from a committee which claimed to be ~p~aking for the people of the area. If I recall correctly a :v!:r. Vey from Hillvie>.;r was the chairman of that committee,and I went out and travelled the roads, in fact accompanied by the MHA, the hon. gentleman who brought the p~tition to the House of Assembly~ I travelled over the roads in the Hillview and St. Jones ~Jithin and dmvn through Hatchet Cove.

And also I travelled around the other way, down as far as Southport, also accompanied by the ~ for the area, and accompanied by in fact a motorcade of cars, because practically every committee member had a car and they decided to drive over the road as well in following the procession. And that request was made strictly by the committee. They wanted this diversion going dmvn from the Trans-Canada Highway down to Hillview~ ~e engineers of course they have.to do the engineering design to call a tender,but the request was made by a committee from the area, so-~~ll~d_: committee speaking for the people of the area.

So I take exception to saying the people were consulted. The government was acting upon requests received from the people concerned, and based on that the engineers drew up the design and also acquired the properties necessary to call the tenders to build a new access do~m through Hillview.

However, if the residents of Hillview in particular do not want the new access, I do not know what the legal -procedures would be to cancel a contract- the contract has been properly awarded to the -contractor concerned-but if the people do• not want the work to be carried out, what I will do as minister is look at the possibilities through the advisers in the Department of Justice and·. a possibility of cancelling the contract. But I again repeat,the action taken by this department was based upon

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1614 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN: the request of a committee with a number of membership, I think a total ten or twelve people, representation from all the communities concerned, and they made the request .to the Department of Transportation requesting that:this new access be built. But again nmv if they change their mind, if they do not want the new access, we will look at the legal ramifications and possibly cancel the contract. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bay of Islands. MR. HOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from the community ~ of Meadows.

It is signed by 176 homeowners and the prayer of ' the petition is as follows. "We, the concerned citizens of the community of Meadows petition the Provincial Government to provide the necessary funds for the upgrading and long overdue maintenance requirements on our community's local road .system. HSpecial attention should be afforded 'the

section of local road leading to the elementary grade~Holy Trinity School. The road to the school as well as the balance of the community's network being in such a ridiculous state rendering them practically impassable," is why this group supported presentations for government was originated.

"We the undersigned hereby indicate our support for efforts to have the provincial government recognize the deplorable insulting state of our community's local road system in hopes of soliciting from government an appropriate contribution towards having same brought up to an acceptable usable standard of convenience." There is a letter, Mr. Speaker,accompanjing the petition. It reads as follows. 11Please find enclosed a petition concerning the increasingly 4~10 -··--.. - . ~

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1614 NM- 3 MR.. WOODROW: worsening state of our community's local road -· ; .. - ~ .. network. The condition of the overall system at present is such that some form of resident demonstration seems very likely in the not too distant future, especially in respect to the school board involved. 11 It would be greatly appreciated if you on behalf of all concerne~, would use the petition in question to lend support to council's efforts to get capital pro;tects financing to enable us to undertake corre .ctive action." And this is signed by -Lewis Smith, Secretary of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, as member of the Bay of Islands district I beg the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to give his time and compassionate understanding to the petition, not only · 4511.

April 18, 1977 Tape 1615 PK - 1 Mr. Woodrow: to avoid the occurence of what happened on Farm Road in Gillams last year when just about all of the pupils walked out,but mainly to ~~lp the residents of -the community of Meadows. Mr. Speaker, I place the petition on the table of the House of Assembly and I feel sure that the minister will do his utmost - realizing again,as I have said and I keep on repeating, I know, Mr.

Speaker,we have fifty-one districts and I do not want to feel selfish ~vhen I make this p~ea . to the hon. minister, but as the member for the district I feel that I have an obligation to work on behalf of the people and I give my whole-hearted support to the · petition as presented. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member form Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition from,I believe,l50 is it? MR. WOODROW: One hundred and seventy-six. MR.

NOLAN: One hundred and seventy-six residents of Meadows, and obviously the hon. member who represents the area spoke very movingly about the need within the community~and obviously is a man who has a heart who does not take these petitions lightly, and who obviously is attempting,even though there ar~ fifty-one districts which there should not be,incidentally~ no need of it in this Province- but he is obviously interested in certainly doing his best to see to it that those in responsible positions will pay attention to the great need there.

I mean~if we have had situations with schools closed in the past, I mean ,are we going to sit by now and >.ratch something like this happen again? I mean,how much do the people have to do in order to get recognition for the problems in their area? Is it any wonder oftentimes that people feel that the House of Assembly is irrelevant ,that little or nothing is discussed,or at least done here,that is of direct benefit to them or their children or their families or their ' communities . --·

April 18, 1977 Tape 1615 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: --. And so when the prayer of the petition is so ably presented by the ; • - • II hon. member says 'aeplorable and instJ:lting 11 they must know what they ---:....~ are talking about, Mr. Speaker. And~I mean,I thought that the hon. member did a very, very good job in presenting this, and woe betied those who ignore the situation as presented ~y the hon. member, because there is always a way, not the best way perhaps, but there is always a way for people sometimes to express their feelings when they feel that this situation is ignored.

So I hope that the minister responsible will certainly not let this opportunity pass without rising to the occasion, one, to state quite clearly, Mr. Speaker, that he is familiar with the situation as described so ably by my hon. friend opposite; two, that he has plans to offset some of the problems that are presently in the community concerned,and what -i s more_that he will make it a point of doing something about it right now. Roads are breaking up all over the place. I mean there are places in Newfoundland right now, I mean Dunkirk was only a joke to it, to look at some of the roads.

Now I realize that some of it has come about because of the heaving after the frost and so on, and potholes, i.t is difficult.,you can fill them up one day and have them washed out the next, but there are some things that can be done. Now there have been certain promises made.of so many hundreds of roads -of miles of roads going to be paved and so on. Now is the time, Mr. Speaker, for those who uttered these statements to put up or shut up. And if the hon. member opposite~who so feelingly and movingly presented this petition~feels that this is not being done he only has one choice, and that is to cross the floor.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I could ·not let this occasion go by up and saying at least a few words, not in support of ~h e petition because I have not got the programme for the next year fully in hand yet; we have quite a few requests in, I believe the latest figure I got for iocal roads if we provide the 60 per cent then councils provide their 40 per cent~that it would be something of

April 18, 1977 Tape 1615 PK - 3 Mr. J. Dinn: the orde:r of $80 million for the 3Q_4, I believe, municipalities in the Province. It is quite evident that we cannot do all of the roads in 1977, Mr·. Speaker. Certainly we will look at all of the requests that came in from councils and hopefully Meado~vs will be one of the successful ones when the programme is announced. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! 4514 -· ' - - . )

April 18, 1977 Tape 1616 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova. I~. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words in support of this petition for the 176 residents of ~·eado¥7S. As the minister ~-~uggested there is a plan, of course, that all municipal or incorporated areas can avail of, the sixty-forty per cent deal. But of course the point of the matter is that so many councils are not in a position to be able to avail of this kind of structure.

They do not have a sufficient tax base to be able to take advantage of this programme with so many other needs of "later and sewer, they just cannot avail of the opportunity. Suffice i~ to say, ~r. Speaker, it· is unfortunate that ~·Je do have so many co1'1IIl.unities in the Province with such deplorable road conditions. As the member was presenting his case I could think ' of just about everr commu~ity in my own district that I could have presented a similar case for. It is certainly frustrating to the people living in these areas - Not all of them. MR. LUSH: Oh, no.

I think I said just about all of them, certainly the majority, as the member was talking ~bout., I think he ~o7as alluding to local roads. And you know I think it is safe to say that I could say every district in my community with respect to local roads, to say nothing of main raods at all, ~~r. Speaker. You know it is absolutely frustrating, it is disgusting to the people - and this points out the necessity for some sort of long-term planning. If the people only knew as to when they could expect a road to be upgraded and paved I think this would alleviate some of the frustration.

But it seems to be done on an ad hoc basis. Every year people hope that this year we are going to get recognized. If not this year, then next year, this sort of thing,and nobody knows exactly when the roads are going to be upgraded. This presents a tremendous frustrating situation to the residents concerned. Mr. Speaker, the member ment~oned in support of his petition the number of school children that have to use these roads. Here again we have this situation almost universal throu~hout the Province,of people having to use bad roads for kids to drive back and ' .. - . ,.

April 18, 1977 Tape 1616 IB-2 MP .• LUSH: . forth to school. And it is certainly a deplorable situation and - - . ~ I would only hope that the Department of Transportation and Communications and the Department of Hunicipal Affairs would come together and come up 'l-7ith some long: term policy so the people would knov1 when to expect improvements in these conditions. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports By Standing and Special Committees. }fR. W. CAlLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have another petition. ~- · SPEAKEP: Does the hon. gentleman have leave to revert to petitions? Agreed.

The hon. member for Bellevue. }fR • CALLAN : Thank you, ¥r. Speaker. I thought that somebody else might \ want to speak on the last one so I did not jump up. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I have another petition here. I think a similar petition to this one 'to7as presented, I think, last - well not last week because we were gone last week. Some of us were gone far and some not so far. This petition, ~~r. Speaker, is signed by forty peo ple who live in Garden Cove in Placentia Bay. Some of them, ~r. Speaker, are members of the Loyal Orange Association: I am having a little bit of a problem today, ~r.

Speaker, with some of the words. I lost one of my teeth from my denture there a couple of nights ago. AN RON • ME}'IBER: Go to a denturist. MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is the denturists for you. AN HON. MEMBER: He would not be the only member YJho went. MR. CALL.AJ."'': They were not manufactured by a denturist by the way. ~ ~r. Speaker, the prayer of this petition reads as follows: "T~!e, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the government and tr.e hon. House of Assemhly now in session praying that legislation be enacted to have liouor establishments closed on Suncl.ays.

He feel that six days per week are sufficient for the sale of alcoholic beverages and we ask that you give t~is your earliest consideration." This petition, ~.rr. Speaker, was circulated by the Loyal Orange Association of Garrlen

April 18, 1977 Tape 1616 IB - 3 YR • C..ALLA:.'i : . -. _.... ~ ~ - - .. ~ Cove, Number 251 and it is signed by many of the members and their '"ives and others no doubt i .n Garden Cove. MR. NEAFY : How many? lP .• CALLAN: Forty . Ac tually thirty-nine . ~ine w2de for t y . ~1;- . Speaker, as I said a similar petition to this one was presented a couple of weeks ago by the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood)~ I believe. _ _ _ 45i7

April 18, 1977, Tape 1617, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: It is my understanding that a large number of petitions will be coming in from the Orange Associations from all over the Province. Mr. Speaker, they are asking that the liquor establishments be closed on Sunday. In my personal opinion I think this is not a bad idea. One day out of a week is not bad to have these establishments closed. Sunday is not altogether a day of celebrating and people could probably get along without it. For example, on election day, which is a day of celebrating and so on, the establishments are closed and people live through it.

They live through it and perhaps they c~~ebrate doub1y the next day depending on how their vote went.and so on. I know, Hr. Speaker, 1\i.n my own horne community there are two outlets or liquor establishments, one a privately owned _club and another one operated by the Lion's Club there,but they are closed on Sunday and the pe~ple in that. area seem to manage to get along until Monday. They survive until Honday so perhaps people can do without it. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition and I refer this petition to the department to which it relates. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, could v1e have silence from the member for Harbour Grace (Hr. Young)? In reference to the petition so ~ ably presented by the hon. the member for Bellevue (1·1r. Callan),and signed by forty members of the Loyal Orange Association in Garden Cove, we are faced - I know that whenever we get into a discussion, whe~~er it be a petition or otherwise on booze in this House, it seems to be a great occasion for jocular remarks back and forth 4518 ~ · · · , -· . ' - - . ..

April 18, 1977, Tape 1617, Page 2 -- apb HR. NOLAN: and so on. ~Jell that is fine, . . . . --- ; but here again we have a situation that alcoholism is - - . .. one of the most serious problems we have to face today in this Province and in all of Canada. So it is no laughing matter. There is many a home broken up in this Province because of booze, we know.

It is a situation that is not to be taken lightly. ~ve have at this moment - I know of instances, as I have already mentioned in this House, where pare~ts have had to send, ftSk,_plead with clergymen to go into various booze emporiums and get their children out and so on. Well, you can say it is all the _parents' fault _that they do not have any control, discipline is gone and so on, and there is something to this. But there is another little matter, Mr. Speaker, and it is one we have to address ourselves to.

We are not, really, in this House as people who attempt to get things done, to finance the situation in - ~he . Province, and the many, many things that have to be financed, that we are arms-length on this si~uation. The fact is that the peddling of booze contributes substantially to the income that this Province receives every year. As a matter of fact, it was interesting to note, I believe, recently in an editorial that the minister - I forget his title now, in the P.C.Tory government in Ontario, Darer McKeough - Darcy McKeough suggests that liquor be turned over to private enterprise.

I do not know if the minister is familiar with it-. MR. DOODY: No, I have not been invited to join the company. MR. NOLAN: No. Well, he is certainly suggesting it and I doubt whether he would do so without considering the advice from the Minister of Finance in this Province 1 with his remarkable record on finance and so on, I am sure he would ~vant to seek his advice first. But any'"ay, 45iS

April 18, 1977, Tape 1617, Page 3 -- apb HR . NOLAN: this is not something to be taken lightly. It is all right to joke about it. Those who like to have a drink and so on, no one is preaching prohibition,nor is the Loyal Orange Association, in this particular instance. They are talking about Sunday. Many of us, when we were growing up, of course, you could not do anything on Sunday. If you wanted to go play a game of soccer you were looked upon with some askance. But perhaps the pendulum has gone too far the other way. Now how do you go about remedying the situation?

It is easy enough to be against something, - but I obviously have to think of hotels, clubs where at least one time some of their licences were dependent on whether food was sold. ' \ . -- : . : . - ~ ~ - I

April 18,1977 Tape 1618 AH-1 MR. NOLAN: I do not know if that still exists or not, does it? But that is something you would have to , consider. No one is suggesting here that anyone or everyone ~vho has a drink has an alcoholic problem. But we have a very serious problem in this Province and in this country as it relates to alcohol. And the member mentions a very good point: !; "is very, very important to close the bars down on election day. Now why is that? Are they afraid enough people will get drunk and realize what they are doing? Is that the problem. MR. DOODY: And not run. MR. NOLAN: And not run, yes.

So let us not look with too much levity on this situation; it is obviously one that is very close and very sincere from the people concerned who signed it, and ·-o-thers- who did not sign it. You do not have to be a member of the Loyal Orange Association to be concerned about the alcoholic problem t¥e have in this Province. And it is going to be interesting to see when the minister brings in his long-awaited budget as to how much he will provide this year to help set up the necessary facilities, skill, personel. , advice, consultation to those who have a real problem with alcohol.

And this is not something we can ignore, it is alright to s~y that every bottle that goes over th~ counter out there, and which they are jacking up the price of all the time, I understand - MR~ - DOODY: Just to discourage drinking. MR. NOLAN: Just to discourage dri~ing! Yes 3 I am sure, I am sure. We now have ·a government who is attempting to finance \ this problem by lotteries - the next thing we are going to have slot machines down in the lobby. You will not be able to get in the elevator unless you pull the one-arm bandit to keep <1 .-- . i - - . ,.

April 18,1977 Tape 1618 AH-2 MR. :'iOLAN : this crowd going. .- MR. DOODY: It is nearly as bad now; you cannot get in . - - ~ . there at all now. MR. NOLAN: \Vell,that is another matter. Maybe the minister would prevail upon his colleague to get the elevators fixed. They never seem to be working,some of them. Anyway, Mr. Speaker. we __ certainly support the prayer of this petition from the LOA in Garden Cove. SONE RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Hon. member from Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words in support of this petition as well.

Certainly a recognition by the Orange Association of Newfoundland that the problem of alcbholism is becoming increasingly more intensified in this Province,and to the extent that it is a very serious problem particularly among our young people. I was reading an

article just some weeks ago . published in the Atlantic Advocate, I think it was,and they were doing a study of the problem of alcoholism across Canada. And Newfoundland outstripped everybody in this drinking habit, I think in every kind of alcohol~be it beer or the stronger type 1 that we consumed more per capita than any other area in Canada. More beer,was it? And even beat the North West Territories which we have ordinarily lostto~ But in last year I think we beat the North West territories.And also the

article pointed out that the~e was an increasing number of people becoming addicted to alcohol,particularly among our young people. And it illustrated the vast number of people that are drinking now G>f junior high and high school age. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I should point to the han. gentleman that the subject matter 4522

April 18,1977 Tape 1618 AR-3 of the petition,as I understand it,is not alcoholism or overall policy of· distribution of alcohol. It relates to Sabbath Day obsetvance. It is about the closing of ' alcohol outlets on Sundays,and although the previous speaker did make some references in a more general context he did, I think, relate them to the subject matter.

And those general conunents having been made, I think that we would be acq1,liescing in a change of the rules to allow comment on a petition,the subject matter of which is -the closing of certain establishments on Sundays ,to translate that as the problems of alcohol in general and the revenue generated thereby. The hon. member. MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to make the poiut, Mr. Speaker, that I think that in closing establishments on Sunday,

whereas I am sure they will not cure the problem of alcoholism in the Province, but I do believe that it would have the affect of diverting 4523 _,_. . .. .. . ~ - - . ,.. - --··-0::: ~ --

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1619 Page 1 - ms Mr. Lush. the attention of people to look for other alternate sources of recreation,· if you will, or spending leisure time profitably on one day in the week, and this could probably have a large affect on determi"ning,or helping people to restructure other types of activities for other days in the week. I think it is most important that we see this connection that even though it is one day in the week that this will help people to come to grips maybe with trying to find other sources.of enjoyment at least for one day in the week. Mr.

Speaker, I have no hesitation whats~ever in supporting the prayer of this petition. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I find myself in total agreement with the petition presented by the hon. member, my colleague.

Now, Sir, we have federal Memb~s __ of.P "lrliament putting on a great ., campaign againstp~rriography obscene literature, obscene shows, magazines and what have you., But_ one of the most damaging to our society, one of the most damaging effects on our society today I think is alcoholism- and I do not want to get into the realm of debate on that one particular item _- but I think, Sir, in supporting this petition I feel strongly that our society is going to have to go back to the basic concept that we were all brought up to.- I hope we were al1 brought up to- and remember this, Sir, that"six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work and the seventh day is the Sa~ and keep it holy." I am a strorig bellever in that concept and I think this is the place for members to stand on their feet and be counted whether we believe in keeping the establishments open on Sunday or whether we are men enough to come to grips and unanimously agree that all liquor outlets should be closed on the Sabbath Day. 4524 ~ . . ) . --

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1619 Page 2 - ms NOTICES OF ~10TION: MR. SPEAKER: The han. member-for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have the unanimous consent of the House, Sir, to make a very important motion? MR. SPEAKER: Does the han. gentleman have the consent? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, No! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, yes! MR. NEARY: Members obviously want to know what it is about, Mr. Speaker. It has to do with changes in t~e unemployment insurance regulations proposed by the House of Commons. - -So if I could have - it will just be very brief.

I just want to make a suggestion to the House and hope to get the unanimous consent of the House on this. MR. SPEAKER: If it is agreed,th~n the han. gentleman ~ill r~ad the motion and then han. members may say whether they grant leave or not. If it is not agreed,then obviously the han. gentleman will not be abie to read his intended motion. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. speaker: 11

WHEREAS the Newfoundland House of Assembly in session is concerned - I presume they are "\ concerned - over the ravaging effect of the changes in the qualifying period for unemployment insurance benefits, the effect it is going -------. to have here in this Province -I would suggest, Sir, that we just take a few moments to pass a telegram that I have.

I will read the telegram if I can get the unanimous consent of the House to pass this telegram, to be sent off by the House to the Prime Minister of Canada, the Honourable Pierre Elliott Trudeau. 11 The members of the House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador unanimously reject the concept behind the extended period of qualification for unemployment insurance benefits as negative, unconstructive and of dubious economic value. The proper course for the Government of Canada to take is to curtail, 4525 . ..--... .. ~->": ; --

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1619 Page· 3 - ms Mr. Neary. through a two-pronged attack, the number of those dependent on unemploy~nt 'insurance benefits by more thorough·: investigation of applicants for benefits and policing ~hose benefits,while at the same time undertaking a federally directed programme of job creation aimed at providing year round employment for ~_h_ose presently receiving unemployment insurance benefits as well as for any other citizen who wishes to contribute to national productivity instead of rotting and eroding in enforced idleness -through no fault of his own~~~ ' I ' - - >

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1620 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I propose that we send off that telegram because I do not know if members are aware or not, Sir, that Newfoundland stands to loose I think it is in the vicinity of $28 million as a result of the changes in these regulations, plus the fact, Sir, that forty-seven,I think MR.. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I think we have the wording, phraseology and all,of the telegram that the hon. member wants to send as a motion from this House of Assembly-the arguments for it and so on you know is another matter-so therefore I think we are in a position on this side of the House to decide whether or not I just ask for some concurrence from the official Opposition to ------------ --------------------------------------------------see how the . position stands ··from their viewpoint. - -- ..... _ ---- - ·~ - - -~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conc~ption Bay South. MR.

NOLAN: I see no reason at the moment why we could not support ~ the situation. As I understand it the members, of the House of Assembly in Newfoundland and Labrador reject the concept behind the extended period of qualification for unemployment insurance benefits is negative and unconstructive and dubious economic value. Now any number of people in all parties I believe in the House of Assembly have expressed some strong opposition to this situation; one ~regarding the extension of the time worked to benefit from unemployment insurance.

The other thing is, and I am sorry I was absent, I do not know if the minister mentioned it but that being so I heard a figure today from someone of how much money would be lost in terms of income coming into this Province - MR. NEARY: Over $30 million. MR. NOUU~: Over $30 million .Now this Province is certainly in no position to scoff at $30 million or anything like it. So I think Mr. Speaker, I assume I speak for the members, my hon. friends, when I say yes we can certainly support the motion. 'MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. -· --.

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1620 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, there has been some discussion here --· amongst - if the hon. member had given us some time, there might be just minor wording changes, the whole concept is sound - ~. NEARY: The Speaker will have to get the wording anyway. MR.

PECKFORD: - so that "YTe would agree ~dth the concept of sending the telegram and getting along the lines the lines that have been suggested by the hon. member, but we would reserve the right to change some of the phraseology in the resolution or the telegram .So if it is agreeable to all the other members on the other side,we would agree with the concept of the telegram going forth and for the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), and myself or whatever, afterwards agreeing on the proper verbage to be used in the telegram. MR..

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that it is Your Honour who will have to send off the telegram - ~. PECKFORD: Yes. MR. NEARY: - on behalf of the House, if it is the unanimous decision of the House. So the wording, this is just merely an outline of a telegram, it is not meant to be the final draft. Your Honour will have to work out his own wording along the principle that is outlined in the telegram. MR.

SPEAKER: What I would suggest, perhaps the three hon. members, or whoever is on the drafting committee, if they wish make a draft and then submit it to me . .,----- ·· The hon. member for Port de Grave. MR. DAWE: I rise to support the principle of this action by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I know y,qe are all aware of the difficulty in finding employment in Newfoundland '"\- at the present time. And indications are that things are not going to be too bright this coming Summer and naturally for ueople to qualify in Newfoundland so they can obtain I think it is twelve weeks - MR. NEARY: Yes. 452S

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1620 NM- 3 MR. DAWE: - twelve weeks would be most difficult and I would like to support the principle of this and go on record as well in congratulating and supporting the federal member, he is my federal member, Mr. David Rooney - MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear~ MR.

DAWE: - for the position he has taken, although · against a government mption, against a government measure in the House of Commons, the attitude he has taken and that he realizesoi am sure as well all do, the problem with employment ; in Newfoundland and in supporting this proposal of the hon. member I would like to place on record as well my support for our hon. member, Mr. David Rooney, for the position he has taken in this regard in the House of Commons in Ottawa. ORAL QUESTIONS : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, now that the Minister of Fisheries, Sir, is back f~em h1s_ jaunt in Europe, since the House last sat, -- I wonder if the minister could tell us just what transpired, what \, countries the minister visited? suitable for the fishery? And now what is the next step to Did the minister find ships ..... ---- --··· - -- ·- ---- ----.. - ---- ·- ·- . ,..----- - - - ---- - get these vessels in operation, to get them over here into Canada? 4523 ' .. .. . , .. - .. - ---:.-~ ..

April 18, 1977 Tape 1621 IB-1 MR. SPEA.KEP: The hon. ~{inister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: ~r. Speaker, 't-7e did visit several countries in Europe having meetings with fishin7 interests, groups, and ship owners _-_;..:0:: or at least fish processors. 'Fe djd identify a number of ships that are., Y-7e think, capable of prosecuting the fishery Hi thin the 200-mile limit. Maybe, ~fr. Spe~_ker, I can take a minute and explajn to the hen.

House the situation in that within a few months, probably t1·70 months,canada will be establishing what will be the total allowable catc~ of fish within the 200-mile limit for 1978. We all knm-7 that in 1977 the total allowable catch that ~vas established by ICNAF and agreed to by Canada amounted to 160,000 metric tons of cod in the Northern areas. 100,000 tons of that quota have been harvested by foreign countries> licen~ed by Canada and for which Canada, indeed Newfoundland, have not received one cent benefits.

In other words, we have licensed foreign interests to harvest 100,000 metric tons of fish out of a total allowable catch of 160,000 without accruing one dollar benefit to this country.

The Newfoundland government have on two occasions contacted Ottawa, once by letter dated February 16,which r·am prepared to table by the way if the han. member so wishes,in t-rhich we expressed the 't-rish that if in fact Canada was going to establish a total allowable catch that would provide maybe a surplus,or at least a TAC that was in excess of the Canadian fishing effort, we contend that. there should be economically motivated conditions to every single pound of fish that was harvested by foreign interes~s, there should be motivated conditions accruing to the benefit of this country.

On June 30 or there about, Canada will be estabishing the TAC, the total allo,.rahle catch for 1978. We have t-Jired Ottawa to the effect-and a copy of this telegram has been tabled - 't-re have t-rired them to the effect that there should not be any doubt at all, that if in fact there is any doubt as to the stocks being able to sustain the 1977 total allowable catch, then the government in Ottawa should consider maybe putting a ban on foreign fishing efforts. And certainly

April 18, 1977 Tape 1621 IB-2 ¥F • W. CARTEP: not to take any chances and that they decide in favour of the inshore and the Newfoundland and Canadian fishermen. Our reason for going to Europe was to line up ships that would be available if and when ~o1e needed them.

In other Herds, if Canada establishes for 1978 a total allo~1able catch that will be in excess of the Canadian fis~~~~ effort,which in 1977 was approximately 60,000 tons, then we want to be in a position to say that if that is your wish to establish that quota and if that quota is in excess of what we can catch, then we ~.rant to be able. to say that we can provide the ships to catch that fish, to land it in our Province and to provide jobs in our Province for our people. These ships,~re hope, would be considered as part of the Canadian effort.

That is what we mean when we say that we might have to charter ships that would qualify this Canadian fishing effort,Qn which there would be serving to some extent Newfoundlanders, and like I said, landing their fish, part of this so-called surplus in our Province for the benefit of Newfoundlanders anci incleed for all Canadians. ~ife recognize the fact, Mr. Speaker,. that we cannot build ships overnight to acquire that kind of catching effort, to increase the Canadian effort to that extent. And we are talking now in terms maybe of 30,000 or 40,000 additional metric tons of fish.

To increase our effort cannot be done overnight. It t~ll take probably months and years to gets plans in motion to get ships started and on stream. Therefore the only solution to the problem,if it is found .indeed that there is a surplus,if to maybe arrange charters. And to answer the hon. member's question, we did yes identify a number of areas where ships can be 453:1

April 18, 1977 Tape 1622 PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: acquired by charter and by maybe other means that can be used if and when we need them to prosecute the codfishery in the Northern pa:::-ts ~vithin the 200 mile limit. MR. NEARY: A _supplementary, Mr. Speaker .. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the minister tell the House when the minister, -refers to "We may have to charter these ships, there are other means", ,--- -. to whom is the minister referring? Is he refe~ring to private enterprise or is the minister referring to a Crown _corporation?

Who is going to do the buying or chartering of whatever it i's that is going to happen? Is the government going to buy these ships directly and set up a Crown corporation to operate as a trawler fleet? Can the minister be a li le bit more specific and give us a few details of the 1We.-, --WhCJ are 1We I'( MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I am not able now to enlighten the '\ ~- han. member to any great extent as to what I mean when I say "We", But there could possibly be certain things happen within the next thirty days that will I am sure answer that question for the han. member. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question? MR. SPEAKER: One final supplementary, and then the han. member from Concept£miBay South (Mr. Nolan). MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, could the hen. minister tell the House if the Premier was in Europe with the minister, and if so, I asked the minister to tell us what countries the minister had visited, and what is the next step to get these_ships,apart from whatever that mysterious who is going to charter the ships in between, does the Government of Canada have to grant a licence or any th ing for these shi ? s before they are brought over here? And are we going to get our own shipbuilding programme going in this Province , in Marystwon? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must point out the need to keep a supplementary question as in fact a question and not a series. -- ·

April 18, 1977 · Tape 1622 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I can only get one shot away, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, the Premier was in Europe .and did attend meetings with - at least I did attend meetings with him and certain interested groups in the U.K. with respect to the chartering of ships and other matters pertaining to the fisheries. - - --- - - - - .. - - MR. NEARY: ---- -- . _ _w~~-tber.e...an.v ciealR .. m~_nP.?- -----·--- MR. W. CARTER: No. I did visit, I think, four countries in Europe, the U.K., West Germany, Holland, and Portugal.

No commitments had been made to any person or any group of people or any country. Where· do we go from here? Ottawa will have to answer that question, Mr. Speaker, because - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.. w·. -CARTER: I think the hon. member knows as well as I do that Ottawa sets the quotas, they establish t]l~ TAC, they issued licences for the harvesting of that fish. Canada will have to define their Canadian fishing effort 1 F_o!=" example, will they in fact look upon a charter arrangement as being truly a Canadian fishing effort? That is Ottawa's decision,not ours.

If it were in our hands we are ready to move now. SOME RON. ME11BERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: We can make a decision on what we should - MR. NEARY: I hope you are not letting foreigners come over here and operate. MR. W. CARTER: No, no! No we are not asking foreigners to operate these ships - ~MR. NEARY: Who is going to operate them? MR. W. CARTER: Every discussion we have had, Mr. Speaker, we have made it quite clear - AN RON. MEMBER: A supplementary? MR. NEARY: But who is going to operate them? MR. W. CARTER: Allow me to answer. MR. NEARY: Yes, okay tell us. 4533 -·--

April 18, 1977 Tape 1622 PK - 3 MR. W. CARTER: Every discussion that we have had with every ship . --owner in Europe that has been first and foremost,that Newfoundlanders would be on the ships, -may-be not the entire crew but certainly partially crewed by Newfoundlancers. MR. NEARY: MR. W. CARTER: -· _ N~ ~!o _''Af:l, _ !l_a!~'-- f _ou do not - MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please!

I must point out minister and to all han. m~bers that when in giving an answer there are sort of a series additional questions and answers that becomes a sort.of mini debate and that would deprive other hon. members the opportunity of asking quest i ons. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: So the hon. gentleman should not intervene with additional questions , and if he does the hon. minister should not answer them. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, maybe you will permit me to answer the last, and I . think a very important part of the han. member's question and that is concerning the future of our shipbuilding programme. We will be discussing the possibility of engaging the building of ships to replenish the fishing fleet. I have a meeting, at least I am . ~cheduling sometime within the next ten days or two weeks with representatives from the fishing industry to discuss that very matter, to find out exactly '4534

\ - ~- - Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1623 Page 1 - ms ~1R. ~1. CARTER: what their plans are, and what their future requirements will be by \'lay of ne\<1 ships to replace in some cases rapidly aging ships, ships that are no'v'J nearing the time \vhen they will have to be taken out of service, but certainly that is our long-term plan that we get involved in the building of ships. When I say, we, I mean the Province. The Province would have to, I am sure, assist in many ways.

And we have already had a circular sent to all of the major processing companies requesting their views on their ship, or at least their harvesting capability, how much more they \'f'ill be requiring, the age of their ships, the carrying capacity and pretty well all matters relating to their catching effort. ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. ~1R. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, recently it has been reported - the ~1inister ~ Education addressed the NTA convention - it is -reported that he apparently agrees with the Dean of Education at ~-------------~-Memorial, the departing Dr.

Ivany~about those who are not active l y ~ engaged in education, in teachi ng and so on, should not more or less be meddling or commenting on it. ~/auld the minister no'v'J care to qualify exactly what he means by this situation? Are all of us to be silenced in the House of Assembly on matters of education? Is that what the minister is getting at? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. ~1R. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am perhaps a little delighted to have the opportunity to respond to that question. I think - the ' ·,,, fact v1as that I had addressed the NTA by way of greetings prior to Dr.

Ivany 1 s speech, and I had mentioned two maJn points. They always cast~gate me a little for being long when I am bringing greetings) but it is the only opportunity I get to speak to the NTA. And I spoke about our educational costs relative to provincial priorities,and the other thing I talked about -~~~_s_ ; quality education. And in the latter part, quality education, I stated that I was not at one with those people --·

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1623 Page 2 - ms Mr. House. who said that the quality of education was deteriorating . But I di"d recognize that quality education was the top public concern across Canada. And in my remarks there at that time I felt that educators must respond to the issue and inform the public as to what is going on and to invite public involvement in education. I said the public and the legislatures are asking it, and we have got, as educators, to respond to it.

Wben Dean Ivany spoke, of course, as guest speaker he gave a speech which either I myself or some of the other educators who were there, some peep 1 e who .,.,ere not directly connected with th~ NTA, incidentally, either I misunderstood what he was talking about or else the public who reported it misunderstood it in ·its totality. And perhaps his emphatic way approach was partly to blame for this. I have to refer to the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) here. He did mention - MR. NEARY: That is all right, boy! MR.

HOUSE: - what he called a Nearyism, and he said the people are giving simplistic answers to very complex problems, and that was the only reference. MR. NEARY: That was his

interpretation? MR. HOUSE: Yes. Well anyway,what I gathered from his remarks, r~r. Speaker, was that education in philosophy and in implementation is very complex, very intricate, and professional, and it does require, of course, the expertise that other social professions require, a neurosurgeon, doctors, because you are dealing with minds; you are dealing with learning theories and so on. So obviously there is a different business for the top educators than there is for the other people. So I gathered that.

He was talking about that,that the development of programmes and methodologies and specific direction must be the responsibility of the people with expertise. ~1R. NOL.~N: Did you a9.ree with him or not? t~R. HOUSE: I agreed with him on that, but just wait now. That is what he was talking about. Now he was not saying, v1ell, you cannot ..- · . -· ---'"-::::

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1623 Page 3 - mw have anything to say about education. He was saying that the - MR. NFARV • ~1R. HOUSE: ~~e are paying· for it so we do have a right, -:· ~ - -­ Yes, that is right, and I agree with him. R•ft what I am agreeing with is that education is a very complex problem, and that if we do not recognize the fact, if we do n~t recognize the fact that the implementation of programmes and approaches is the work of top professionals, then we are paying a lot of professional people high salaries without giving them a mandate. --· . - .

April 18, 1977 Tape 1624 IB-1 }"R. ROUSE: - -- : Now that did not say that I was against the public having input. I am crying out all the time for the public to be concerned about education, to have input into education.and I believe that educators ' have to be accountable. But I said there are different degrees of business. So I did not agree with him. If he said-w~ich he did not say - he did not say nobody should have anything to do with it but top professionals. He said that there is a role for the top professionals, and that is a very professional role.

Certainly there are interests and concerns that need to be expressed and we invtte that through our school boards, our structures. So I agreed with what Ivany said in gist. It ~·7as not that I was against the public not being able to criticize . and that sort of thing. The public should criticize and educators should be accountable. But education is just as professional as is medicine or any of the other top professions. MR. LUSH: A supplementary ouest ion, :P::r. Speaker. :MR. SPE.t\..~P: I recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova for a supplementary~ MR. LUSH: A_question to the han. Minister of Education.

In view of recent statements from our Newfoundland teachers to the effect that many of our students are taking courses,particularly in mathema.tics,~.rhich are not challenging to the students nor are the - . courses preparing our students to enter the labour force or indeed for future education. MP.. PECKFORD: A point of order. }'iR. SPEAKEP.: A point of order has come up. ?-ofR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do I understand that the hon. member is asking a supplementary question?

And if I understand ------ - ·~ - · -- correctly, I would submit from what I have heard to date of his supplementary questio~ that it really is not a supplementary to the original question which had to do with certain eading educator in the Province and by the rninister,and that he is branching out into a new area of education which does not warrant or justify it being called a supplementary to the original. 4523

April 18, 1977 Tape 1624 LB-2 ~ffi. SP~A~R; I would point out to the hon. gentleman in asking a supplementary that it has to be-what the supplementary is, is to ask for information, further information,and it must be something which does come out of or is closely related to the anso;·7er, because it is a supplementary question to that particular answe.r. I would also point out~and this will be for all han. members,that in putting ·any oral questions,supplementary or otherwise,no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except in so far as may be necessary to explai' the same.

I recognize the hon. member for _a supplementary, if he wishes . \0: \- N ~V-1 ~·~~- If the hon. member for Terra Nova does not have a . _supplementa!Y I will . - _MR.. LUSH :__Y9_U _ca.n__~:rn -- LJi7·iJ 1 get a. chance later. MR • . NEARY: Vr. Speaker,- is the minister of ~ducation aware, Sir, that for years now the department has been using a slogan for Education Heek, "Education is everyhody's business", and if so how can the minister make a statement that he ~ade a few moments ago that I cannot understand an~1ay.

How can the minister Make a statement that it has to be a professional~ the professional elite have to make these decisions - w~eri the minister's policy, philosophy of the department is,11 Education is everybody's business .'1 MR.SPEAKER: The han. minister. ~.HOUSE: ~r. Speaker, I am having i~ very . difficult in communi~~rin~. I guess I am a bit conscious of the fact that as an educator I used to overdo it sometimes. I feel that I would not have to overdo it now. I am not saying that education is not everybody's business,I said different degrees.

Hel-l, let me give you an example; I do nC't think that the general p.ublic is concerned. I think l"h,.v sav . Loois-. we mn~r have special pro~rammes for our special education children because they are not~for instance,being able to be educated by the conventional means~so you have tC' get some 'programmes to meet their needs. Hha t I a.m saying is that is a complex problem and the programmes and the implementation of them must be the •¥ark. 4533 , .. -· --. - - . ___ ..... ::;

April 18, 1977 Tape 1624 LB-3 MR.ROUSE: of top professionals. Sure the public can criticize them and tell us they are no good and offer su~gestions,hut it is the top of these professional people that you have to depend on in tha:t. }~ .• NEARY: How do you become a professional in that sort of thing? ¥R..ROUSE: A professional in that sort of thing is from five to ~ . H O'C S E : No., they do not ~~e i_~··all. ¥R. NEARY : You are talking about teachers~ We are talking about bu;.eaucrats ,l MR. . SPEAKER: Order please. I consider the exchange of further . . questions and answers to be an .. '!~e of the ~les.

If any . o~her hon: ·member has another question? The hon. member for Stephenvi lle. I . - v:: - ~ . -- . ..

April 18, 1977 Tape No. 1625 NM- 1 Y. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Finance. Could the hon. minister tell this House what was the amount of the slush fund used by the former President of Labrador Linerboard,and could he indicate if this was used primarily for company business,and was it over the amount of $5QO, 000? --1-MR. • DOODY: What? MR. MCNEIL: I will repeat the question if you like. MR. DOODY: Repeat the question. MR. MCNEIL: What was the amount of the slush fund used by the former President of Labrador Linerboard? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. · MR~ · LUNDRIGAN ; - A slush fund or a slash fund? .. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, You just referred to a number of sections in Standing Orders of the House, from ....___ __ ( 25 to 31 dealing with questions and on 25 (a) "But in putting any \ such question or iil -rep1'yiii.g to the same, no argument or opinion - --- ----·-- is to be offered." I would say the terms us.ed by the hon. member in putting his question ~for example in using the words "slush fund~ does put the opinion in there which is unnecessary in answering the kind of question dealing with the content that he wants to get answers to. It is 2S(

a) and I think Standing _ Orde~ 3l(

c) also refers to the same kind of thing "In putting any oral questions no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may- be -necessary ~ o explain the same. I suggest that the question as posed in its present form by the hon. member is out of order for that reason. - ---- -·--- -- ---- - --·· - ---- --·--- .. - MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, the question put by the --i,__hon,. member. is.. no.t-out. --0-f-o.rder--.--He--is-as k-in-g-i-f-tt!-~t1:11!!'!e-rr .... e--------- - was a slush fund item one and whether it amounted to $500,000.

It is as simple as that and the hon. minister is charged obviously on ·a question like that to get up and provide

April 18, 1977 Tape 1625 JM- 2 MR. NOLk~: charged,obviously on a question like that~to get .- up and provide the necessary information. It is a simple question ---·-.::: --asked by the member. MR. SPEAKER: On this specific point of order,it would appear . to me there is a definite rule that a question i~ _ not to be phrased in such a way as to suggest its own answer. And as I understand it,the connotation "slush fund" has a connotation of an improper use of money.

And if the han. g~ntleman is asking about certain funds for which a Crown corporation is responsible for the disposal oflthen he would have to put his question in such a way as to not make the innuendo of improper use of public funds. So it is a question of the phrasing of it. The term "slush fund'' as I understand it15 is certainly used in terms of public trust or public monies, does have the connotation of an improper use. The han. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Mr.

Speaker-, what was, the amount of money used by the former president of Labrador Linerboard for personal plus business reasons and was it bela~ or above? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: To the best of my knowledge,and the best of the knowledge of the other members of the board, Your Honour, the manager and chief executive officer of Labrador Linerboard Limited was paid a set _ salary plus expenses . There was no fund set aside for his own private purposes,and certainly there was nothing in the nature of $500,000 or anywhere close to it to my knowledge.

If there was or if there is some evidence to suggest that there ~as,I would be very happy to receive it. But certainly there was no such fund and no such - That amount is astronomical. You know,if there is something like that going on ~ve would be very, very happy to hear about it. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary - the hon. member for LaPoile.

April 18, 1977 Tape 1625 HR. NEARY: While we are on the matter of the Linerboard mill, would the minister tell the House what future there is no~ in the Linerboard mill? Did the minister receive the report yet of ----- ----- -- the Advisory Committee? Will we have the budget next week? Is the report in? Will a decision be made on the Linerboard mill? MR.. SPEAKER: ·o'!='der, _ please! Order, please! I must insist that when an hon. member is recognized for a supplementary that it should be or~ question. The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I tt:ied to keep track of it, Sir.

It ~<Tas going pretty quickly there for a while. Is there a future for Labrador Linerboard Limited? Yes, I sincerely hope so. Do we have all the reports in from the Advisory Committee? No, we do not have them all in. Will .there be a budget down before the end of the month? Yes, the target date is the 2-8th of April. Will we necessarily have all the information related to Linerboard Limited before that budget comes down? No 1it is not necessarily so. But there may have been other little quest.ions thrown in there which I missed,and I wou~d certainly welcome them. MR..

SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for Baie Verte- White Bay. That was a supplementary if there are some other hon. members who wish to ask questions. MR.. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question to the Minister of Tourism in his position as acting Minister of Health I do believe. Could the minister - The minister has probably ,-~-- seen the recent statement by the Newfoundland Association of Registered Nurses that they are prepared to stand by their original statements a few days ago of child abuse- I believe at Exon House. 4543 JM- 3 ... . ~--:....::; --

- April 18,1977 Tape 1626 AH-1 NR. RIDEOUT: The minister has made some statements on that over the last few days. Could the min~ster tell the House ~-1hether or not any consideration has been given to having any sort of- inquiry into those c11arges so that at least the public mind can be laid to rest as to what exactly is happening rather than just the statements from the minister? Is there going to be any sort of inquiry into those charges, those very serious charges? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. ME.. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I held a number of meetings over the weekend and met the executive of the Newfoundland Nursing Association today,and about all I am in a position to say at this point in time is that certain matters were brou-ght to my attention and I am taking a look at them now, and a more definitive statement will be made as quickly as possible as soon as I am in a position to do so~ MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Fogo. MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Fisheries~ _In- _the ~inister 1 s reference to the tentative pinpointing of ships available in Europe, could the minister tell us what type of vessels he surv~yed or looked over or made arrangements, tentative arrangements -what length of --ships, are they reinforced so that they could operate on the Hamilton Bank? ----MR. SPEAKER: Hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am not qualified to look at a ship and tell you if it is capable of fishing on the Hamilton Bank.

But what we did do is talk to the various ship owners and we have asked them to compile an inventory of their ships and the capability of their ships. But certainly for talking about providing catching effortto penetrate the ice covered waters of the North,then we are going to need ice 4544

April 18,1977 Tape 1626 AH-2 MR. CARTER: reinforced ships,And- that is one of the requirements that we attached to our talks, that we would be given information on ships owned by the various companies in Europe, those expecially that would have ice reinforced capability. . HR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker • MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary . . CAPT. WINSOR: Would the minister consider hiring or chartering or renting,or whatever the term may be, ships other than the reinforced for navigating in ice?

Because I think it ----- --- --- is very important to get the vessels to operate where our own vessels cannot operate now. MR. W. CARTER: Did you say can or cannot operate now? Can? MR. MURPHY: Cannot. MR. SPEAKER:· The hon. Minister of Fisheries . . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is the idea of it,that we now have eighty-seven shi';JS. Host of them are not - I do not - - think any of them are ice reinforced. These ships are only capable of fishing in certain areas. Certainly they are not able to fish within the confines of the Hamilton Bank area during the Winter months.

Primarily we are interested in acquiring, maybe by way qf charter, ships that are ice reinforced, freezer trawlers~with a 200 foot class, 250 foot class that could fish in areas that are now inaccessible to the Canadian catching effort and the Newfoundland catching fleet. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile and then the han. member for Conception Bay South. MR •. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, when the minister discussed this matter with his colleagues in Cabinet, before the minister and the Premier went overseas to look at these ships, obviously the government must have had something in mind·. They must have had some instrument whereby there were going to charter these ships. Would the minister tell the House how that is going to be carried out? How the chartering is going to be arranged? Will it be directly with the government or will it be ':vith private industry i!."·. this Province? 4b45

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1626 Page 3 - MS . --. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, unt~l certain decisions are made in Ottawa and certain discussions are held, which will be held shortly - MR. NEARY: But Ottawa is not going to charter them. MR. W. CARTER: I think the hon. member will have to be patient and certainly within another few weeks I think the entire picture will unfold, and then he will be - MR. NEARY: When the budget is brought do'im? ~1R. W. CARTER: No, not necessarily. But there are certain things we have to do, Mr.

Speaker, before we can talk about- or at least getting down to that type of detail. And like I said earlier, and I am not trying to pass the buck, but Ottawa will naturally play a very "important

part in what happens within the next few months with respect to the maybe chartering of ships from Europe for the Newfoundlandfish harvest~ng - sector. B~t certainly that is something that will be unveiled, I hope, during the present session of th~ House. "And I think that given time, I think the explanation will be very satisfactory. MR. NEARY: But the time is now. MR. W. CARTER: It will be received by the House and certainly to the members. MR. SPEAKER: Order (1) - the Address in Reply.

April 18, 1977. Tape 1627 RH - 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY~ MR.. SPEAKER: Order (1), Address in Reply. The hon. member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) had adjourned the debate. MR. NEARY: Could the han. clerk, I wonder, tell me how much time that I have got left in this debate? MR. SPEAKER: Eleven minutes, I am informed. MR. NEARY: Seven minutes, well, Sir, I do not even have - MR.. SPEAKER: Eleven. MR. NEARY: Eleven minutes - Oh! Well I can do a brief recap ~then, Sir.

We have established a number of facts in this sub-amendment that we are discussing in connection with trying to bring about an investigation into the tripling of the cost of the Carbonear Hospital and the: . ~nrealistic escalation in the cost of the Health Sciences Complex. I have tabled a number of documents, Sir, in connection with the two projects and I have established a number of facts.

Fact number one, Sir, that contracts were awarded on both projects without calling public tenders· Fact number two.,. there arP. col'lt nlns cnntr;:~.r.t:s on hoth of these projects and Sir, there have been extentions of contracts almost to the point where it is completely irresponsible. The contractors have been given almost a blank check in the extention of some of these contracts and we know that the cost has escalated beyond ~eopTe'.s · wildest imagination. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have tabled a number of documents. I have tabled a receipt from the Progressive Conservative Association whereby Mr.

Richard Greene acknowledged $~2,600 from Scrivener. And I tabled a copy of a check for $50,000 around about the time that negotiations were going on for a new agreement with Scrivener. And I also tabled a copy of a check issued from the United Trust Fund,which is the Tory campaign fund, paid out to Mr. Andy Davidson who was the project manager at the time, Sir, for slightly over $28,000-$28,500, I think it is. r Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other facts now that I would "--.

April 18, 1977. Tape 1627 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: like to lay out for benefit of the hen. members. I would like to - Mr. Speaker, the government, the Premier and the administration have been quick to respond to commission of inquiries into allegatio~s of the purchase of land at the Gras Marne National Park when the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture wanted his good name upheld. And then, Sir, the Premier was quick to react to the silly coloured television controversy, a commission of inquiry, only $1,300 involved.

So far I have pointed out to this House there were millions of dollars of taxp.ayers' money may have gone down the drain in extravagance and waste. Mr. Speaker, I have tabled all the information, Sir, that ~ wish to table at this particular time. But.I do wish to say this, Sir, in connection with the accusations of skulduggery, influenced peddling, kickbacks, shake- downs; ·in connection with the Carbonear Hospital and the Health Sciences Complex that the Premier's name has been bandied about and other hon. members. But the Premier's name especi~lly was bandied about. On May 10, 1972, I am told that Mr.

Greene,who was the party bagman, requested $6,000 from Mr. Andrew Davidson, from Scrivener, requested $6,000 to help pay the expenses of a trip for the bon. the Premier and party to a cruise around Greece. The han. House will remember, Sir, that the hon. the Premier and several ministers and party did go off on a cruise there a few years ago to Greece, two or three years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: That has nothing to do with it. MR. NEARY: It ,has all to do with it, Sir. The $6,000 that was requested on May 10, 1972 by Mr.

Greene, the party bagman, was asked, the company was asked to issue a bank draft that could be cashed anywhere in the world. AN RON. MEMBER: Can you prove that? MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, it can be proven by just going to the East End branch of the Bank of Montreal and getting a copy of the bank draft

April 18, 1977. Tape 1627 RR - 3 MR. NEARY: - ~ : that was issued, drawn up on the East End branch of the Ban!<,_of -- -:. '·C: -: Montreal. The sum of $6,000 was given to Mr. Greene , who was the party bagman. But lo and behold, Sir! Where was that international bank draft ~-<i~hed? It was not cashed over in Greece or in Europe.

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1628 Page 1 - ms ~·1r. Neary. It was cashed down at Terra Nova Motors to buy a car with an open bank draft, cashed at Terra Nova r~otors'>a St. John•s automobile dealer, and at that time Mr. Greene - MR. 1<10RGAN: Who are you charging when you say, Mr. Greene? t·1R. NEARY: No, Sir, I am not charging - the money was not used for the purpose for which it was collected to help pay for the Premier•s - How can a car pay for a trip to Greece? ~1r. Speaker, the han. gentleman obviously is not listening to what I said. Do I have to spell it out? r~R. MORGAN: Who is making the dirty charges? MR.

NEARY: Mr. Davidson Scrivener was asked for $6,oqo donation to help pay for the Premier•s trip to Greece, Premier and party, trip to Greece. It was asked in the form of an internationa 1 bank draft, and the bank draft' was drawn on the East End branch of the Bank of ~1ontrea 1 and passed over to Mr. Greene~ who was the party bagman, and it was cashed down at Terra Nova r~otors. AN HON. MEMBER: What happened to Greece? MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, this Buick electra automobile was purchased from Terra Nova Motors around the same time that that bank draft, the draft was cashed.

Now, Sir, that drqgs the Premier•s name into it. So, Mr. Speaker, I would submit, Sir, to this hon. House that for the sake of good government, of protecting the taxpayers• money, of good government, and for the sake of the integrity of the Tory Party, the Progressive Conservative Party in this Province, and for the sake, Sir, of the han. Premier•s reputation, that the government should be quick to respond, just as quick as they did to the Gras Marne National Park accusations that were made, and the coloured televisions,and get on with this enquiry, this investigation into both of these projects.

Now, Sir, the Premier indicated to me a short while ago that he may have some problem in getting the right kind of person . ---

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1628 Page 2 - ms t·1r. Neary. to carry out this kind of a fact finding mission, if you want to put it that way, this kind of enquiry.

Well, Sir, I have done a lot of research over the Easter holjdays on this particular matter, and I have written the Premier a letter and I have outlined to the Premier - I have given the Premier three names the names of three people, two Newfoundlanders, and one gentleman who is not a Newfoundlander, that could do -~ali outstan~ing men, all highly qualified, all experienced in investigation, all experienced in accounting and construction, top-notch men, and I have written the Premier and I have submitted the names of these three gentlemen to the han. Premier just in case the han.

Premier may have some kind of a mental hang-up of some kind of a psychological hang-up about coming into the House and saying, ~·le cannot find a man suitable to do the enquiry. Now, Sir, I suggest it \'/auld not be fair for me to give the names to the House. I have given them to the Premier, and I hope that it will be helpful to the han. Premier in making up his mind to carry out this enquiry.

I One other fact, Sir - and I do not have very much time left - but one other fact that I want to mention before I sit down, and that is, Sir, that one of the companies that benefited greately, especially from the Health Sciences Complex, is one of the companies mentioned in A, B and C in the Auditor General's Report; namely, Noel's Electrical which did all the electrical work over here at the Health Sciences Complex.

And there was a little bit, Sir,therewas a little bit of,shall we say~questionable negotiations carried on there when the party bagman at the time demanded a substantial amount of money for the Tory treasury. I think it was in the amount of $250,000 and at the time - AN HON. r·1Er·1BER: Can you prove all this? MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, I can prove it all. - and at the time, Sir, negotiations were going on with a number of electrical contractors, including Canadian Comstock, ___ ...... ~ --

April 18, 1977 Tape no. 1628 Page 3 - ms Mr. Neary. which was one of the biggest electrical contractors in the whole of Canada, and they refused point blank to have anything to do with ki_~kb.ac;ks in the way of political donations or · any other form of donations. So, therefore, they were kicked out of the picture a 1 together, and the contract was given to - __ .. _ .. :_ __ ---- Noel's Electri_cal. _~~ ~ot know ~~a~_ .:the p.rice was •.. I cfn not know if there was any price. I am not making any charges, Sir. All- I am doing is asking thii House to get the facts.

That is another reason why we need a thorough investigation into this whole matter of the Health Sciences Complex and the Carbonear Hospital. And, Mr. Speaker, we do know of one fact that I want to re-emphas i z.e, to drive home, to rivet home~ the necessity . . ·.:.. -~ ·~-::: ·:

April 18, 1977, Tape 1629, Page 1 -- apb HR. NEARY: for this enquiry is the fact that the Hinister of Public Horks, a former minister in this House, the Minister of Public Works and Services, the hon. Val Earle, nmv no- longer a member,admitted in this hon. House that two contracts at least - and that is in Hansard, Sir, the records can be checked - that at least two contracts were awarded on the Carbonear Hospital without calling public tender. One went to Babb 1 S Constructio~ and_ I forget who the other one went to.

My understanding is that Babbs did not have the expertise to do the work and they had to sub-contract it out. So, Mr. Speaker, if there was ever a need in this Province for a commission of enquiry we have it now. I do hope, Sir, that in the interest - and I, in my own personal opinion, nobody--on the opposite side of the House js_,: involved .. in this. That is my opinion. MR.---J~- CARTER: You are _certainly good at digging up - ------ - --- -- ,jirt. Maybe you could investigate it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, maybe I could do a o~etty good job.

The hon. gentleman does not do too bad at digging up dirt himself with his hands down in the savoury patches over there. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is no laughing matter, it is no joka;-·sir-. -- There is necessity here for an enquiry. AN HON. MEMBER: Lay your charges. . - ~- ' MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am hoping that the government ~vill respond, that we \>~ill not have to get dm-Jn to a knock down, drag 1 em out political partisan debate in this House. He have kept it on a pretty high plane so far. r.m. HICKEY: This is a high plane? . --

April 18, 1977, Tape 1629, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: This is a high p~ane, Sir. I could table other documents if I wanted to, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to do it at this moment, but if I am forced to I will, Sir. I am hoping the government will respond just as quickly as they did to the colour television sets and to the enquiry into 'the Gras Horne National Park. I would expect every member on both sides of the House to support this sub-amendment. ---Jr ~1R. SPEAKER (Collins): The han. the member for Conception Bay South. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the endrnent to the Throne Speech to delete all the words after 'that' and replace them with the following: "The House condemns the failure of the ministry to prepare and to present to the House - I am sorry, I have the !"rang on~.

Here we - have- -it - "Specifically demands the government forthwith set up a royal commission to enquire into and report upon all the circumstances surrounding the donation of $52,600 made to the Progressive Conservative Party by the firm of Scrivener Projects (Nfld.) Limited, such commission to have all the powers that may be conferred upon commissioners under the Public Enquiries Act,

Chapter 314 of the Revised Statutes of Newfoundland, 1970." Now, Mr. Speaker, in reference to this situation, the tripling · of the costs of the Carbonear Hospital plus the immense escalation in costs of the new Hospital over here on the campus, ~nd if . Y<?U are prepared to accept the fact that the han. the member for LaPoile did not have the cheques forged and the other documents that he tabled forged by someone, if they are accurate, and obviously they were,we are informed, provided by Mr. Davidson or one of his agents, a man who was very closely connected with Scrivener in this Province, and since there have been suggestions that ... .. - :

April 18, 1977, Tape 1629, Page 3 -- apb MR. NOLAI.'I: certain amounts of money have been paid - we now hear that another ~mo. !Jnt $, 6 00 was changed down at Terra Nova Hotors. You_kno~, you do not go down to Terra Nova Hotors just to change a $6,000 cheque - and also bearing in mind, ~tr. Speaker, that there are hon. members opposite who are quite concerned about this, there is no way in God's world, including the member for St. ~ohn's North (Mr. J. Carte~), that he can vote against an amendment such as this. Not and stay in the House, surely. HR. J.

CARTER: (Inaudible) so far all vle have heard is the (Inaudible). MR. -RIDEOUT: He tabled the cheque. MR. NOLAN: The hon. member knows very well there have been certain docurnE:m ts tabled. Whether they are sufficient to convince the hon. member that there is reason for such an enquiry will be interesting to speculate on in days to come. But the situation is there is a lot of money involved here that is public money.

No one in this House can say that there was anything wrong, but when we have public enquiries on,say,the Gros Morne expropriation and so on, if you hasten to the bit on items like that, how can you possibly ignore some of the suggestions that have been made regarding this? There are hon. members opposite who are quite concerned about this situation. They are not saying that anyone is guilty of any wrongdoing, but what they are saying, privately, is that there is sufficient information there to make them \·!Onder and they would like to have some 4535 .- ·· _--_;.<

April 18, 1977. Tape 1630 RH - 1 MR. NOLA.L'l': - ·-- of these questions answe~ed. We ~re talking about one heck of a lot of money. We are talking about situations now where we have firms involved. We have the name of a prominent lawyer involved and so on. And I think the only way to clear this up is to have the inquiry that is called for in the amendment as proposed in the sub-amendment. So I hope that the han. members opposite, one, will not remain silent on this. At least let them have the guts to get up, Mr. Speaker, and say - 11_ No •. this is wrong. There is nothing wrong.

This is just normal II practice and so on and then vote against it. It is as simple as that. And then the press and all the people in the Province will have an opportunity to judge the gentlemen accordingly. But if they attempt to ignore this one then I suggest that they do so at their jeopardy. If the hon. member, for example, of St. John's North(Mr. Carter) feels that the copies of the checks that the han. me~ber for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) tabled and so on are forgery, they are fakes and this, that and the other, let him prove it and that is the end of it.

But if he is not prepared to do that, then I would suggest that he will have to certainly, one, address himself to the situation because there is too much involved to merely ignore it; and secondly, to vote for the amendment. Not only that, if we are to believe, as_ we must, the comments by the han. member that he has already forwarded the names, suggested names at least, of a number of people, I would think, who might serve on such a commission and so on to the han. the Premier. It would be interesting if there is an inquiry, .and say the han. member from St. John's North(Mr. J.

Carter), as an example,votes .against it, then how is he going to live with that one in his cabbage patch? So we are going to be watching very closely Mr. Speaker. Fifty-two thousand six hundred dollars is not hay. That allegedly was donated to the Progressive Conservative Party. We are now told that certain amounts were demanded and refused by a very prominent company. Put them on the witness stand,w~ere they can be

April 18, 1977. Tape 1630 RH - 2 MR. NOLAN: free to give evidence under oath, and this is the only way it can be done. Bring Mr. Davidson to the witness stand and anyone else who may have been involved and whose name may have been mentioned here in this House. But it is certainly nothing that you can sweep under the table, not and get away with it. People are too sceptical about politicians anyway. And.if we attempt to avoid this one then we are merely digging out own graves here in this House.

I think that if the full facts do come out it may lead to one thing and that is a complete change in the total financing situation of political parties in this Province of all stripes. And that is going to come eventually by enlightened minds in the future whetner you like it or not because I think eventually the public and the people will certainly demand it. Now it is not my intention, Mr. Speaker, to prolong the debate on the amendment. But I do hope that members opposite will address themselves to it. It is all right to say to the minister or the member for LaPoile(Mr.

Neary) "Prove it, prove it, prove it!" Well let them prove that the documents he has tabled are wrong, they are forged, they ·are faked and this, that and the other. That being so, the matter can be dropped right there. But unless they are prepared to do that, their silence, I am afraid, will condemn them, ~1r. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to take a couple of minutes to make a few very short remarks on this sub-amendment because, Sir, it is something that I believe,and my colleague made reference to it, it is something that I believe hits at the heart of our political system. I do not want to get political or talk in partisan terms about this sub-amendment, calling for an investigation into the more than $52,000 allegedly made by-Scrivener to the P.C. Party. Now it is all right to shout back and forth, Sir, "Prove it!", and all this kind of stuff. .- . :.:....--"' ... :::-:.

April 18, 1977. Tape 1630 RH - 3 ~-r MR.~· But the way I understand the way the thing has gone this last few days is that the reteipt has been tabled in this House by the member for La.Poile(Mr. Neary). That rec~ipt has been acknowledges! as being authentic by the lawyer, Mr; Gz;eene, who I understand used to collect money for the governing party now on the other side. So, you knaw, for to shout across and say, _:P.rove ~t_ ; Prove that the thing was done;' _w~ll it has already been admitted. The receipt has been tabled.

The gentleman who signed the receipt says that it is a good one, that the contribution was actually made. Now that in itself, Sir, says to me, especially when we consider the fact that projects escalated so much in which Scrivener was involved, projects like the Carbonear Hospital which tripled in cost, was that all due to inflation? Maybe it was, maybe it was not. The cost of the Health Sciences Complex has gone so high, Sir, that it is almost impossible to imagine th.e figures anymore. Is that all __ .-. - -- ,_<.

April 18, 1977 Tape 1631 JM- 1 MR.. RIDEOUT : due to inflation or are there other factors involved. . .. - ; There are a number of questions that must be answered. I believe .. ... - -----~ there are a number of questions that should be answered. The gentleman from LaPoile has presented some proof and somebody, Sir, should be able to tell the people of this Province whether the facts as he has brought them out in this House are true or not. Somebody should tell us.

The government hasten~d very quickly and I believe rightly so to set up a commission of inquiry into the famous or infamous tv set business that was brought un in this House a few days ago - did not waste any time at all doing that. I understand from my colleagues who served in this House previously that the government hastened very quickly to set up a commission of -inquiry into the land expropriation in the Gras Marne National Park region when the integrity of the present Minister of Forestry and Agriculture was questioned with regard to that deal. Rightly so, that is what they should have done.

Now, Sir, the name of the Premier has been kicked around in this particular deal, the integrity of the government has been kicked around, the integrity of the PC Party has been kicked around and it is time for those auestions to be answered. Now I feel very strongly about it, Sir, because this whole system makes me sick,of running out - I am not blaming the government, the PC Party on the other side. Our party was probably just as bad when they were over there and it is just as bad probably all across Canada, but for once.dn our lives, Sir, let us do something for God's sake to clean up the system.

Every now and then when you talk about political kickbacks and political financing it almost makes me feel,as a member in this _House?like crawling under the seat and being ashamed to be seen. A.T\f HON. MEXBER: You too! · MR. RIDEOUT : Because how did we get here? The party that I represent was given contributions by somebody. Obviously they were expecting something in return for that. The party that is !'!, =..:: ·.::::: .n ~~UJ -

April 18, 1977 Tape 1631 JM- 2 :MR. RIDEOUT: now the government on the other side were given contributions by somebody and whether they twisted a~s to get ___ ,__ .... . it or not maybe a question. So -the whole system, Sir, at times makes me stomach sick to even think about it)it stinks. Let us start to clean it up. There is a greater principle involved in thiR little sub-amendment here than just saying the Tories went out and twisted arms and got $52,000 from Scrivener. There is a greater principle. The whole financing of elections, the 1<1hole political system as we know it is in question in this Province.

People are talking about it and doing it rightly so. The integrity and honesty of the Premier and the government that he leads a~d of the party that he leads are also being questioned by facts, I suppose as far as I know, presented to this House. So clear it up. It has been done before- a cou~le of instances that I have mentioned. So let us get on with it. I support the call for a commission of enquiry. Let us get on with cleaning up our political system and that is really the question that underlines this sub-amendment.

Sir, I support this call for a commission of enquiry and I hope that people on the other side will do the same. ~ MR. SPEAKER(DR. COLLINS): The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the gentlemen opposite since we started on this sub-amendment this afternoon and much of what they say is extremely valid. As I understand the situation of the sub-amendment and of the discussions~and arguments that have been put forward by the other side and so on, as I understand government's position the han.

Hinister of Public \-larks and Services ':vho is presently not in the House,unfortunately;is to make a very detailed comprehensive statement as it relates to the allegations made by the hon. member for LaPoile both as it is reflected in the sub-amendment and the discussions and arguments that he put forward as a result of the

April 18, 1977 Tape 1631 MR.. PECKFORD : sub-amendment. The hon. minister is.not in his place today and I understand it will be a number of days before he will be. The hon. Premier i~· on"his way back from Europe and will hopefully be in the Rouse tomorrow.

So we have undertaken to provide the people's House, this House with a complete and full statement as it relates to the Health Sciences Complex, the escalation of costs, ~he negotiations of agreements with the Scrivener group and other groups or whatever to indicate the diligence with which government undertook to ensure that we were getting a good and decent deal as it relates to the Health Sciences Complex and other projects that were ongoing around the time referred to in the statements by the people opposite, by the hon. members opposite. So that is the position where it stands right now.

Now this gove_r;nnent, Mr. Speaker, has a pretty good record when it comes to trying to JM- 3 -· _ __ ... '*"~'

April 18, 1977 Tape 1632 LB-1 MP .• PECKFOPD: to, as the hon. members have already mentioned ciearing'the air on the number of allegations that have been made by han. members or by _ ... _ ··~~ people outside of this House. 1<7e did very early in this administration establish,as everybody knows, a public tendering act which has served this province very well over the last four or five years. , _l~~s been a very magnificent piece of legislation \vhich, on the one hand has allowed us to. boast about that kind of p~in~i2le . and at the same time it has also caused a lot of problems for . the administration as every citizen of this province can recognize especially when one gets into tendering: on major projects in whi.ch there are firms outside of this province and firms inside this province.

Newfoundland firms versus 7 if you will, alien firms, or mainland firms or upalong firms. Hhen you have bids1 coming in that are I ex~remely close and trying to determine and agonize over the legal implications of not going with the mainland firm because you think you can get more Newfoundlanders employed by going with the Newfoundland firm and all that that implies.

On the one hand that the p~inGiple is sound and all the rest of it and one that we obviously support and took the initiative on bringing into this House and getting it passed, :lt also has caused many problems, In. the same as we can indicate to the people of this province the moves that we made ~s it . r~1~tes to hiring practises within the public service,as. it · relates to the whole Newfoundland and . Liquor Corporatio n which years ago was abused politically many) many times and >-re all can relate our own little stories about that.

So on many, many fronts \·re have in t~e past four or five years gone a ·long way through le!_!islation, through restructuring of government agencies to makin ~ the~ free from any political interference. On the particular one that is now mentioned, as I say, the hon. minister of Public Works and Services and/or the Pr~ier will h~ c~e~t:i.ng in

April 18, 1977 Tape 1632 LB-2 v~ .• PECKFOF.D: detail on the aJlegations)on the escalation C?t ·cost and all the rest. Then, then when that statement and position of the administration is put fonvard it is only then that we can fully evaluate the validity or necessity of the kind of enouiry that the hon. member for•-I.aPoile is asking for in his resolution. To do othe~7ise would be flying in the face of reason - the han. member for Stephenville, I am sorry - would be flying in the face of making decisions without having all the facts and both sides of the story told in this House.

So on that basis this side of the House cannot support the sub-amendme~t at this time because governT!'ent has undertook and 'Co7ill provide a comprehensive ·and complete statement on the issue in this House either the minister of Public Forks and/ or the Premier within the next few daysJhopefully 7 when these gentlemen return from work that they are now engaged in. That is the position of the administra~ion.

Ron. members on this side of the Rouse are as concerned as hon. members on the other side of the House when allegations of this kind are m~de which tend to reflect upon,as the hon. -· meT!'ber for Baie Verte -White Bay ~aid 7 on the integrity of the party that we are a part of, the government that we are a part of, as individuals)members of the House,and all the rest of it. !,for one ·member, speaking on behalf of the ministry am very concerned about it as well. .And we r,!ill see and . analyze our own positions as relates to this matter when thP administratiods complete and full statement is made regarding the allegations in the sub-amendment.

At this point in time we find ourselves unable to vote for it until we hav~ presented to thP­ hon. Fouse through the minister of Public T-'orks and Services) ~ -: ho in the first instance is responsitle,the position of the administration. HR." NOLAN: wnen is that going to be? HR. PECKFORD: Hopefully this week. -·:.. ··-"'· \ \

April 18, 1977 Tape 1632 LB-3 ~.SPEAKEF: Ron. member £or Terra _ ova. 1 ~'R .LUSR: Hr . Speaker, I stand to support the amendment. The min~ter makes )?cod and makes some valid points. But, Mr . ---..... .., some 8peak.er, "'e on this side of the House still contend t ha t if the minister - is , and the government are so inten t upon cleari g up some of these allegations or some of t he se doubts raised. by the amendment that it is the feeling of this side of the House then they should do as the amendment suggests .and - that is to

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1633 Page 1 - ms r~r. Lush. set up a commission to look into the entire matter, the entire ~ircumstances surrounding this situation and to clear the air once and for all. Mr. Speaker, it is a situation that certainly demands this kind of action. The minister has previously given statements which I think 1 previous to the amendment~which illustrates that this side of the House and certainly the person that moved the amendment is not satisfied ~t1ith the explanations to -date of the minister respecting this particular situation.

And the only way to do a thorough job, th;e only way to 'do a complete job, to clean \JP: an the suspicion around this particular situation is to do as the amendment suggests and that is namely to set up a. commission that will have all the powers conferred upon it by a commission under the Public Enquiries Act and to look into all the matters, and all the circumstances surrounding this particular situation. And as the han. member for Baie Verte -White Bay (Mr. Rideout) alluded to, that it is a matter of principle. The government now have the opportunity to clean up this situation, if you will, and ~~r.

Speaker, they have looked into, as we have said before, smaller incidents, particularly the incident of some days ago of televisions which is nothing at all compared to this particular situation, and a government that will act so quickly to clean up a situati9n like this,one would think that they would want to act very quickly in this particular kind of a situation. And they now have the opportunity to do something for politics in Newfoundland. The member for LaPoile (r~r. Neary) has raised a lot of facts in his D?.rticular speech today if that and previously when speaking to this amendment. And, Mr.

Speaker, is left up in the air, if that is just left unsolved, if that is left to stay where it is, I think that there is going to be a lot of doubts in the minds of the people of this Province, and I believe it is incumbent .- · - ·· ... ---~·

Apri 1 18, 1977 Tape no. 1633 Page 2 - mw Mr. Lush. upon the government to clear up those matters once and for all and, Sir, if there is nothing to fear, if the government have nothing to worry about, then I see no reason why they do not act according to the amendment to set up a commission and to look into all matters surrounding this donation by Scrivener, and to prove to the Newfoundland public and to prove to this House that everything was indeed above board. To not do so, t~r.

Speaker, as I have said before, would certainly leave a lot of doubt, and a lot of suspicion in the minds of the people of this Province, and I believe that the government now have the opportunity to prove otherwise, and to clean up politics in this Province. And I believe it is incumbent upon them to act according to this amendment. SOME HON. MH1BERSi:. Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): ·The han. member for Port de Grave. MR. DAWE: I rise, Mr. Speaker, in voting against the sub-amendment.

I have been a member of this House for ten years, and I listened to similar allegations when I sat on the other side of the House as I am listening to here today. And- while the han. member for LaPoile (r~r. Neary) has brought forth facts that I am sure all us members do not like, under our democratic system this is the way party funds are raised, and always have been raised since Confederation. ~1R.