LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 12 June, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITT EES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Page 96, 4.(

e) Marine Services: 4.(e)(1) - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I jus t want the Mi nister to bring us up to date on where we stand with our Navy. How many have we got operating? Have we got any in drydock that have been pulled out of service? What's the one doing at Nelson House? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, outside of the Treesbank area, we have seven in the northern areas: The M. V. Charles Robert at South Indian Lake, South Bay; the M.V. Joe Keeper, Split Lake-York Landing; M.V . Edga r Wood, P.R. 234, Bloodve in-Prin cess Harbour; C.F.

James Apetagon at Sea Falls to Norway House; C.F. lngemar Carlson, which is operating at Matheson Island by the Community Council there; C. F. Alfred Settee Sr. at Pipestone River to Cross Lake; and the C.F. Thomas A. Mclv or, Nelson River and Cross Lake. lt may be up for moving to another location in the near future because of the bridge being in place there, but they want to operate it for another year yet. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could tell the committee what hours are they operating, especially the one - is it Nelson House where they can't get across until the morning? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the Cross Lake and Norway House ferries, we extended two hours this year to 10:00 p.m., 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., another two hours instead of the 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., as in the past , which will enable them to make the bus connections. We have provided some additional dollars this year for that purpose. The decrease in dolla rs here in the Salaries area, 35,000, is due to the fact that the Matheson Island Ferry was taken over by the commun ity in 1985-86. MR. D. BLAKE: Do these run on one shift, or do they have two shifts from 8:00 till 8:00? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: They're operated locally on 12- hour shifts. Now with the other two hours, I don't know whether this would go 14 hours. MR. D. BLAKE: Seven days a week? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'll just find out about how many days a week. lt may vary. Some of them are seven days per week, Mr. Chairman, such as the service 849 between South Bay and South Indian Lake. That's a seven day per week service. The one to Norway House is seven days per week. As far as the shifts, Mr. Chairman, there is a variety of shifts that these operate under.

They may operate for 10 days straight and then have five days off and that kind of thing. But the days that they go, so far as seven days, six days a week, I believe most of them are seven days a week, except for Split Lake which is less, three days a week. The rest are seven days a week. MR. D. BLAKE: Does this apply to the Treesbank Ferry too? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, the Treesbank Ferry is open till midnight, I think, or 1:00 a.m. MR. D. BLAKE: Well with a beep of the horn, I think you can always get the old guy there to run you across if you're late. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: So there's a little differ ent approach there, and it's not even run under this

section of the bud get, is it? lt's through the Hig hways construction budget, not through the Marines appropriation. lt's not one of the Northern - these are all Northern ferries, and it's not dealt with the same way. MR. D. BLAKE: Are there any ferries that are n't in service, that have been pulled out of service? What has happened to them? Have they been sold, or are they up for tender? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well the M. V. Charlie Sinclair was relocated and renamed last year, the M.V. Charles Robert from Cross Lake to South Indian Lake, that was one that was moved, and we may have the M. V.

Mclvor that we were just mentioning earlier up for relocation in the next year or so. I don't know whether we have identified specific locations for it or not. We're looking at Island Lake for that ferry. MR. D. BLAKE: Is there any provision or any planning been done for constructing additional bridges that may elimi nate further ferry service in some areas? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's what happened at Cross Lake; that's why the Thomas A. Mclvor will be ava ilable, but I don't think there is - Mr. Chairman, it's been pointed out there are two that actually cross rivers.

The rest are either operating along the east shore of Lake Winnipeg, or Cross Lake, it's a couple-hour trip, and that kind of thing. So there is only a chance, I guess, that the C.F. James Apetagon at Sea Falls to Norway Hous e and the Alf red Settee Sr. at Pipestone River to Cross Lake where there could ever really be a viable alternative in terms of a bridge, and there are no plans for bridges currently in the budget for that.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 MA. D. BLAKE: The Matheson Isla nd Ferry just operates from the mainland to Matheson Island. They have no other route? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, the Matheson Island operates as the member described. The M.V . Edgar Wood, which operates from the end of PR 234 to Bloodvein and Princess Harbour as well, but the Matheson Island is just across from 234 to Matheson Island. MA. CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)(1)- pass; 4.(e)(2)-pass. 4.(

f) Materials and Research - the Member for Minnedosa. MA. D. BLAKE: Is this the area, under Materials - where would we discuss the government purcha se of motive fuels? Wou ld this be under Materials and Researc h, or is that under another area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The member was asking about motive fuels. Of course, the tax of the motive fuels is something that is done through Finance. If he's talking about the fields for equipment and our fuel bill for the department through Mechanical Equipment Services, 4.(b), we passed that some time ago. MA. D. BLAKE: That's where the gas purcha ses are? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Fuel and gas, diesel and gas for our equipment, yes. MA. D. BLAKE: I wonder instead of coming back to it under the Minister's Salar y, maybe if we could touch on that. I thought it might be under Materials down here rather than Mechanical Equipment. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, in fuel for vehicles last year, there was approximately 5 million spent in that area and we're projecting 4.5 million this year. So, about a $500,000 reduction in actual expenses there and heating fuel dropped from 300,000 to 200,000.00. So, there's a substantial drop there in the costs. MA. D.

BLAKE: Yes, I wasn't as concerned about that as the method of purchasing. Is this put out for tender to the various companies? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, there's a quota for various areas of the province for delivery to your tender and it'll come up for renewal this fall in December. There's escalation clauses or decreasing clauses - whatever the word might be for that - it will fluctuate with the market, red crude oil price. MA. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could tell us under this section, or if he could tell the committee what criteria is used for government empl oyees in patronizing certain filling stations.

Is there a priority list, if you use company A, company B, company C - in that order - or what direction is given them on what station they should fill up the government vehicles at when they're out in the rural areas? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we do get discounts that are negotiated with these compa nies off the pump list 850 price, but that is through government vehicles. That's in Government Services and it's really not appropriate to discussing that policy here. MA. D. BLAKE: We get into that under Government Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Under Government Services. MA.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)( 1) - the Member for Minnedosa. MA. D. BLAKE: Would the Minister have any fairly handy breakdowns on salaries, under Salary and Wages on what is senior management and what is clerical? Do you have a quick breakout on that, how many emplo yees? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Under Materials and Resea rch, Mr. Chairman? MA. CHAIRMAN: Materials and Resea rch, yes. The Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, in the 38 SY's in this particular section, one is listed in managerial; 6 are professional, such as engineers; 28 are technical or technicians, technologists and some operators in that category; and three clerical, for a total of 38. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm hearing a buzz in here and I don't think it's a malfunction of the equipment and it's hard to hear the members' questions. MR. A. DAIEDGER: lt's Storie and Maloway. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't want to attach blame. The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes. What type of research does the staff do?

Is this research on material strengths, asphalt strengths, gravel testing, things of this nature? Is this the kind of research that's carried on in this department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that's correct. lt provides for investigating, testing, inspecting all materials used in construction and maintenance of highways. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)( 1)-p ass; 4.(f)(2)- pass. 4.(

g) Traffic Operations-the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, is this where we would ask the Minister to bring us up to date on highway speed limits? I mentioned to the Minister earlier about standardizing the better class paved roads to 100 kilometres because we're running into great difficult y. In our area, you come off the Yello whead Route, which is 100, and turn up No. 10 to Clear Lake, which is 90 and No. 10 is far better ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it would be more approp riate under 7.(

b) which is the Highway Traffic Board, so if you'd like to hold it for that. MR. D. BLAKE: 7.(b)? I might forget about it when we get there.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 MR. CHAI RMAN: Yes, the Highway Traffic Board that deals with setting those. MR. D. BLAKE: Maybe the Minis ter could tell us what the Traffic Operation covers then. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Traffic Operations covers traffic signals and determination of where they should be placed, as traffic counts, speed counts at various areas, illumi nation, pavement markings, signing. Actual ly, it makes recommendations for speed limits as well, to the Highway Traffic Board, but they aren't set by this section. The decisions are made by the Traffic Board, so actually we could talk about it here.

There's nothing wrong with that. Accident records, traffic management, maintenance and construction zones, these are the kinds of areas that they're involved with. MR. D. BLAKE: Maybe the Min ister could tell us then, has he made a recommendation to the Traffic Board to standardize the 100 kil ometre speed limit? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we have dis cussed this issue and the department, through this section, has made some recommendations.

I don't have the map here in the designated routes, but really it's all major PTH's at a 100 kil ometres an hour over a period of time when they reach a certain condition involving the width of shoulde rs. They should have proper shoulder widths and generally be in reas onably good condition, although there are some that have been set at 100 previously, such as sections of the Yello whead where they certainly need upgrading and improved surface, but they're still at 100. But that would be the criteria in the future.

Adjoining routes that are already 100, perhaps could be considered joining with other provinces and interconnecting routes that are 100. Basic criteria though is major PTH's. MR. D. BLAKE: No. 10 is certainl y a major PTH. it's the main traffic artery into Clear Lake, Wasag aming and south to Boissevain which is at 90. The road is in far better condition than many others that are 100. I'm just wondering if the Mi nis ter has made a recommendation on how soon we can expect that highway to be increased to 100 kil ometres. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I do not dir ect or make recommendations specifical ly.

What usually happens is that the department, once we have approved the basic overview plan for the PTH's that should be set at 100, over a period of time the board will react to resolutions and requests from municipalities in the area and from, I bel ieve, the department to this se ction, recommendations. I won 't make those recommendations, but they will be made over a period of time. They'll be dealt with on an individual basis over a period of years. MR. D.

BLAKE: I'm just wondering where the interested parties that are interested, such as the Tour ist Association and the Chambers of Commerce, should direct their pressure to or their request to, to have the speed limits increased so that they're uniform in certain 851 areas. Would they direct those to the Highway Traffic Board? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They could do that. If they sent them to me, I would forward them onto the Traffic Board for consideration, or they could send them directly to the Traffic Board. MR. D. BLAKE: lt is causing some problems in that particular area, especially now with the heavy tourist traffic.

As I say, they come off a 100-kil ometre route and turn on to a highway that's in as good a shape or better and, all of a sudden, they're flagged down by the consta bula ry. it's very upsetting to them, because they're maybe not familiar with the area. Those of us who are familiar with it don't like it, but we have to observe it because we know the signs are there, although it costs about $36 every now and then when you're not quite as observant as you should be. So that's pretty annoying to local people who are travel ling in the area and sometimes get a little absent­ minded.

But if we can tell them where to direct their inquiries, that's fine. Under Traffic Operations, I notice there's a recoverable amount of $950,000.00. Where do we recover this out of Traffic Operations? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The 900,000 recovery is from the di strict offices for sign productio n through the Maintenance Division. They pay for the signs that are used in their districts, and that's where this section, Traffic Operations, recovers that amount of money. MR. D.

BLAKE: Under this amount, my colleague, the Member for Turtle Mountain, is not too familiar with what these amounts might cover, this $4.259 million, so maybe the Min ister, for his edification, could just elaborate on it a little bit. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay. There is, first of all, an increase in the Other Expenditur es this year which is some $280,000.00. We'll get to the basic 4.2 million as soon as I get the informa tion on all of the components. MR. D. BLAKE: We don't need details, just general HON. J.

PLOHMAN: But the highway illum ination, for example, is up $80,000 this year for Hydro, so that's an $80,000 increase in there. MR. D. BLAKE: It'll be going up every year ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: An increase in the quantity of manufactur ed traffic signs, $1 50,000 increase there for that matter. Traffic signals that are put in would come under Other Expenditures, as I mentioned, illumi nation, pavement markings. I mentioned signing, sign shops, pedestrian corridors, new Community Signage Program. We've got a few more, mostly in the sign area, new signs as well as illum ination and markings that I mentioned.

They're major ones. MR. D. BLAKE: Could the Mi nister tell me - he mentioned illum ination was covered here - if there

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 has been any decision made or any action taken to ill uminate the junction of No. 16, the Yellowhead Route, and 10A? That's on the south of Minnedosa leading into the town. There has been a request for greater illu mination there and on 10A where it comes out and joins the 355 with No. 10 on the west side of the village. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I just mentioned a number of pedestrian corridors and ill umi nation , pavement marking, signage and so on. There are also railway crossing signs that are put up at joint expenditure of the Department of Highways and railways.

They share those costs for crossing signs and warning lights. That particular intersection mentioned, 16 and 10, has been brought forward by, I guess, the Yellowhead Association and others. I believe that is one of the ones that's intended to be done this coming year. I think that it's warranted and some . . . MR. D. BLAKE: They're looking for illumi nation, rather than stop lights. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I know, illu mination. Thirteen intersections are going to be done this year on that, other additional intersections. MR. D.

BLAKE: We've experienced some fairly serious accidents on that corner under various conditions. The junction of 10A, the Yellowhead Route, and No. 10 north through the town, there were a numb er of deaths there for years, but they seem to have that under control now. They had rumble strips and a stop light and, God knows, how many signs, and they still came crashing through there. I think there were something like 19 people killed there in the last 15, 20 years.

But the last couple or three years, it's pretty accident-free, so maybe the last signage and the rumble strips have been the answer to alert them that they're coming to a major intersection. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Waking people up. MR. D. BLAKE: I have to be very careful with them with my car, because I may lose half of it. lt's pretty rough. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly wakes you up. MR. D. BLAKE: Most of the roads that we have now, jt doesn't make much difference. You can't tell whether you're on a rumble strip or not. HON. J. PLOHMAN: He's on one permanent rumble strip, okay. That's my design to keep you awake. MR. D.

BLAKE: I think maybe some of my colleagues have a question here, Mr. Chairman. Maybe you can ask someone else. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, my question may be an overlap kind of question with this area as well as the Highway Traffic Board area, so you might tell me if I'm out of order here. But I would like to know a little 852 bit more than I already do about the Highway Traffic Board. For instance, who are the members of the board? MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that would be more appropriate under 7.(b), where you deal specif ically with the board. MR. J.

McCRAE: All right, well my question is then, Mr. Chairman, the Minister talked about his department making recommendations to the Highway Traffic Board respecting speed zones and that type of thing. I believe this would fall into line with the type of discussion we were having a little while ago. Does the department have any policy respecting which roads it would make recommendations about? That's the question, whether it has a policy or whether it acts on an ad hoc basis to make recommendations to the board. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well there are a total of currently probab ly, last year, 1985, a total of 2,510 kilome tres in the province that were at 100 kilometres per hour. The department has a policy that would see that move up to 4,110 kilome tres in total in the province. So it wouldn't quite be doubling the total. Of course, there are a numb er of major routes that are already 100, including No. 12, No. 6, No. 10 in the Northern areas, No. 5, the Yello whead, No. 16, as well as all the five four-laned sections of highway that are there now, would be 100.

There would be other major highways that would be included probably on No. 10 south as was mentioned by the Member for Minnedosa. Perhaps Highway 83, some sections are already 100 I believe and studies are being done at the present time. Resolutions have come in and so these are looked at very carefully from the impact that it will have and the condition of the highway and then recommendations made, based on that policy if all of the conditions are met. MR. J.

McCRAE: These recommendations would apply to specific stretches of highway and would be the subject of numerous hearings by the Highway Traffic Board or would it all be done in one hearing? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They may do two or three requests in one year, depending on how many are before them at any particular time. One

section of highway, such as No. 10, might be done in one hearing. What they would do, Highway 83, if that was being considered separately from No. 10 and so on, so it would involve . . . During the process of hearings that they have through the normal cou rse of events for other matters, these would come up and be dealt with throughout the year. They would not hold special hearings just for the purpose of that one question. MR. J. McCRAE: Does the department make recommenda tions or take any position respecting appl ications for speed changes within city boundar ies? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The usual process for changes in speed limits will come from municipalities, from towns and villages, cities that want the consideration made for a change. The department will then take a look at

Thursday, 12 June, 1 986 that request and do some radar studies and traffic studies for the area and consider the traffic conditions and road conditions and so on, and then provide that information in a compl ete report to the Traffic Board and may or may not make a recommendation. The Traffic Board makes the final decision based on all of the informa tion they have at their disposal. MR. J. McCRAE: I realize, Mr. Chairman, that the board makes the decision. Just a couple of examples. I was involved, Mr.

Chairman, as I said earlier in the day, with the Council of the City of Brandon and our council voted unanimously to make representation to the Highway Traffic Board to have certain speed zones reduced within the City of Brandon. In one case, what we asked for we didn't quite get, although we did get a change. In another case, we were turned down twice. The point I'm making is perhaps I should ask the Min ister in those specific instances whether the department made recommendations because it seems to me that it's almost as if the board didn't hear the case that we put to them.

We were very disappointed about it and I'd like to know what part the department played in those particular applications. I can refer the Minister specifically to them if he could come up with an answer for us. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: As far as the specific situations, I would probably need to take that as notice and get the information specifically as to what the specific recommendations were, but obviously , in certain instances, the board mem bers would famili arize themselves with the situation as much as possible from their own personal experience, but, I think in most cases, they would consider quite seriously the informa tion and impl ications that are drawn from the information they get from the department, whether it be by formal recommendation or whether it be by impl ication, as I said, as a result of the statements that are made in the report that is provided to them and the advice they get.

They obviously have to consider that very serious ly, just as all people in elected positions rely on staff to provide them with technical advice. MR. J. McCRAE: This is the point and that's why, Mr. Chairman, I asked earlier who are the people, the members of the board, where do they live, that type of question, so that I was trying to build a case that perhaps the recommendation of the city engineer of the City of Brandon wasn't given the kind of weight that it should.

If these people lived right in the neighbourhood or in the area, those people who made the decision, it might have been a little easier for us at the city council level to swallow. I believe in one case the hearings were held twice on the same stretch of road and we were turned down both times.

The point I'm making is that we felt somewhat offen ded, I believe, that people should come likely from outside our jurisdiction, coming in maybe for an afternoon armed with perhaps a report from the Highways Department, listening to the city engineer and listening to others and elected officials from the city and turning us down. In the other case, we weren't quite as offended because we did get some of what we asked for. In the 853 case of 34th Street in the City of Brandon between Victoria Avenue and Richmond Avenue, there were people who were somewhat offended by the decisions in that case.

I wonder if the Mini ster could, when we get to the Highway Traffic Board part of the Estimates, if he will be prepared to answer in that specific instance. HON. J. PLOHMAN: If we don't get to that before 10 o'clock tonight, I'd try to have the information available on that particular . . . it's 34th Street between Victoria and Richmond Avenue. I think there's no doubt that they cannot please everyone all the time in their decisions and they don't take any special pleasure in upsetting people, but obviously in many cases they have to because they can't always agree with what was proposed . That's their job.

I'm not saying that they do not make wrong decisions at times. Of course, that's all very subjective as to whether it's wrong or whether their decision is right, depending on the perspective that one takes. In terms of that one specific situation, I can find out whether there was a formal recommenda tion made and what it was and perhaps get a report. I don't know if I can get a detailed report from the committee on it, but we'll check and attempt to. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I must admit that I'm very subjective about it and perhaps the other members of our city council were very su bjective about it too.

Still, I think it would be useful to know what it is about the department - if there was a departmental recommendation - what it is about that department's recommendation that ma kes the quality of the recommendation of our city engineer somewhat suspect or less valuable. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNE SS: ... I'd like to add ress a question to the Mini ster with respect to signage. I have a number of small ham lets and commu nities through my constituency, some of them that are not recognized in a major fashion in some of the signage that exists on major highways.

Can the Min ister tell me what proper approach I may take or who I may request that certain signage be erected that would indicate to people in my constituency that they do indeed exist, and that there is a way . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there is a policy to identify comm unities on the Highways. I guess I would have to ask, first of all, whether these communi ties are marked on the highway map. Yet, the member is saying on no major route is the name highlig hted by a sign. Perhaps it is, maybe it isn't on every route that they would like and that's where the problems come in. MR. C. MANNESS : Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to move into the specifics now by using the time of the commi ttee to do so, but I'm wondering who I could approach to talk to about two or three specific signs that I might have in mind. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the member could, if he chooses to, write with the inf ormation and I would

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 certainly ensure that it gets to the right place, or he could come in and talk to probably Ross Adamson, who is the traffic engineer, or you could come and see the Deputy Minister. There are many ways, if you jus t try. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if this is the time; I'll ask the Mini ster to direct me. I'd like to move into a pretty detailed discussion on accidents on our highway system involving deaths and injuries, and I don't know if this is the proper time. HON. J. PLOHMAN:

Section 6. MR. CHAI RMAN: 4.(g)( 1) - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: The Minister indicated here a minute ago that there are 2,500 kilome tres with speed limits up to 100 kilom etres an hour. I'm just wondering if the Minister could tell me, using the Trans-Canada as a border and 75 as a border, Saskatchewan and the United States, is there anywhere in there at all where there is a speed limit of 100 kilome tres an hour, in that whole great big area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't believe at the present time, in that section, there is. No. 2 is one of the recommended routes, along with No. 10, No. 83.

Highway 12 right down to the border was done, but you're on the other side. I realize that, but I'm saying that one was added this past year. So those are the routes that were recommended in the studies that were done by the department to bring it up to the 4, 100. MR. D. ROCAN: I'm asking at the present time, is there any? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I indicated that I didn't think there was. MR. D. ROCAN: There are none, eh? I was just reading, someone was wondering if we were second-class citizens down there. We can't seem to speed along at 100 kilometres an hour. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: You know, everything is a lot more compact there. Originally this started up in the north areas where there was very little, wel l, not as much traffic perhaps, long distances between communities and that's where the original requests came for a consideration to go to 100 from 90. These were granted in a piecemeal fashion over a period of time, No. 6 in the north, and slowly moved right up to the Perimeter Highway by gradual extensions and No. 10 up north and so on, then moved that one south through further requests.

So that's what gave rise to the department and myself looking to come to a kind of a planned approach to it from the kind of ad hoc approach that was taken before. So that is why we have taken a position on those 4,000 kilome tres. MR. D. ROCAN: I don't suppose that 276 is at 100 kilometres? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't think 276 will be 100 unless it's made into a PTH. The thing is that we're talking about major PTH's as opposed to PR's. 854 MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(g) (1) -p ass; 4. (g)(2)- pass; 4.(g)(3)- pass. 4.(

h) Government Air and Radio Services - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, in the absence of our critic in Highways, would the Minister care to comment with respect to the

article that was in the paper, I believe at the beginning of this week, with respect to our air equipment flying around, individuals who had charges laid against them, bringing them to court? Would you prefer to discuss this area in the Policy area or in this area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the decisions made for the Government Air by other departments is not something that is screened by the Department of Highways as to whether that is a legitimate use of the aircraft or not. That is a decision made by the client department who pays for it.

We don't have our director saying, now we don't think that guy should fly, he should take a bus, or whatever the case may be. That is a decision made by the Attorney-General's Department. The Air Division responds to the various client departments for use of that plane and charges them at the standard rate of, I think it's just over $1 ,000 per hour, or so much a kilom etre. I can get that right away.

The Attorney-General 's Department makes quite good use of the plane, of the second jet, which is the Citation 1 that was formerly just primarily used as a Northern Transportation Program. 1t was purcha sed in 1981. lt's $1 ,005 per hour or $2.55 per mile. I have a breakdown of the various departments, but the Attorney-General's Department does use this service for, not only that purpose, I understand, but also for other purposes such as judges and for court cases in the North. MR. C. MANNESS : Well, I guess I'm more interested in the pol icy, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister seems to indicate that this jet is on stand-by and is available to any department of government and, of course, I don't know what the order of priority would be, if various departments come for it. Obviously there must be a prio rity.

But given that it isn't being used, it is available to fly, I suppose, on a daily basis, and I guess that begs the question whether the rental rate or the charged rate to each department is sufficient to cover the wear and the tear and the actual depr eciation of the equipment; so I guess that's my main concern when I begin to read reports where our jet is flying here, there and everywhere because, quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with it at times. If it were sitting idle for a month or two because it quite evidently then would not be appeciated. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the policy is that it is charged back on the basis of full recovery based on about 700 hours of usage per year, which will pay the total cost of operating it. Last year, the operating cost was $6 11 ,000, and recovered $654,000, so it was 107 percent recover y. The priority since the new air ambula nce program has been here, the air ambula nce has been available, the priority is: (1) to act as a backup for the Air

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 Ambulance Program; (2) used by Executive Council for general transport; and (3) used by all departments, agencies and commissions for general transportation of government pers onnel. If it is to be used out of province, I, as the Mi nister of Highw ays and Transportation, have to sign a release form for that. MR. C. MANNESS: The Mi nister talks about the sum of $611,000 being the cost of generating rev enues of $650,000 this last year.

Is any portion of that an allowance for the actual capital costs such as when this plane has to be replaced; or will there be a sum of money somewhere in reserve, in general reserve, that will help defray the cost of purchasing a new plane; or is it purely operating cost unassociated with the capital cost of the plane? HON. J. PIOHMAN: That may be considered in the near future.

Right now we are moving to get rid of the inefficient planes and the fleet of aircraft that can be gotten rid of, and a number have been sold in the last couple of years that were very inefficient, and moving towards full cost recovery on others insofar as operating expenses. We have not included depreciation costs in as yet, but that is something that may be considered in the future. So there is nothing going into a general reserve for purcha se of a su bsequent aircraft in the future.

The Cessna Citation 2, the air ambulance, is fully recoverable from the Ma nitoba Health Sciences Commission, for example; the water bombers are fully recoverable from the Department of Natural Resources; the Citation 1 is now at over full recovery this past year; so 107 percent based on those rates, and because it was used more than was projected overall, more than the 700 - (Interjection) - no, not for the election.

A couple of the others that are there, the Beavers, the Turbo Beavers, are much lower in terms of recovery than 100 percent; and the Aztec, for example, before it was one of the most inefficient, 47 percent, the one that landed on the wrong airstrip up at Roblin; and a couple of Beavers are kind of inefficient in terms of recovery . So those are the ones that are being sold that's a lower-priori ty, older aircraft. MR. C. MANNESS: A final question from me in this area. What life span is left in the Citation 1? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't know that there is a life span.

From just general conversations I've had with the pilots down there, and I don't know whether we have any formal estimates, but I believe that a plane like that can be easily used for 15, 20, 25, 30 years if it's kept in good condition and replace the engines after a certain number of hours. MR. D. BLAKE: I don't know whether someone asked while I was out, how many aircraft do we have now, and could you give us a breakdown on what's in the government fleet. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have right now, Mr. Chairman, 11 in our air force.

We used to have 13 - well, a couple of years ago, we had 15 - this past year, we started the year with 13 and sold one Turbo Beaver and one 855 Aztec, so we're down to 11. We'll have one more water bomber coming on with the program that we entered into with the Federal Government a few years ago. lt's going to be delivered very shortly, so we'll be back up to 12. MR. D. BLAKE: The Mini ster mentioned replacing inefficient aircraft . Is that inefficient from the cost recovery end of it, or is there a more efficient aircraft that you're replacing it with, a faster, lighter aircraft carrying a heavier load? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: lt's a combination of both of those. lt's difficult to get full cost recovery from some of those old clu nkers. They're basically bush planes or for fire fighting. The CL-215's are fully recov erable, the water bombers from the Department of Natural Resources, but the others are charged on an hourly basis when they are needed for fire fighting, and they're not needed all the time so that it's difficult to get full cost recovery from them. They're not really equipped for pass engers. MR. D. BLAKE: Do we have any helicopters? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not in our fleet. MR. D. BLAKE: Do we still have that push-pull?

HON. J. PLOHMAN: That was one that was sold, Mr. Chairman, last year. MR. D. BLAKE: That was a good move. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Didn't know whether it was coming or going. MR. D. BLAKE: I should tell the Minister we were in that one time when we got bumped off the jet at Gimli or somewhere, and they sent that one up to bring us back. The former Member for Gladstone was sitting behind the pilot. I noticed him reading a manual on emergency landing and I thought he was preparing for his next test.

But, apparent ly, when we got to the strip, we landed on the grass beside the strip and there were three fire wagons and an ambula nce down there. I said, "Was that for us?" He said, "Yes, the wheels wouldn't come down." So I'm glad we've gotten rid of that one. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, you and the Minister of Communi ty Services both know what it's like to come down in the wrong place. MR. D. BLAKE: That's right. You've covered the use of the jet pretty well, I think, and the questions that I wanted to ask on that, and I can pick them up in Hansard.

That was covered thoroughly enough on how the aircraft was requisitioned. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(hX1)- pass; 4.(hX2); 4.(hX3)- pass. Resolution 93: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11,451,900 for the Department of Highways, Engineering and Technical Services, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1987- pass.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 Resolution 94, Item 5, Transportation Policy and Resea rch, 5.(a) - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Well, not so much under (a), under the Other Expenditures, this provides grants under Southern Manitoba Airport Assistance Program. I wonder if the Mi nister can tell us what airports have been assisted and the amounts that they have received under this allotment. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That program has been in place for so long, I've got all kinds of information on Mobili ty Disadvantaged, but not on those.

I think those are the ones that are some $600 grants that go out to these and we re ally hav en't adde d to the numb er of commu nities under that program, nor have we taken away. I believe that it's the same as it was in previous years and the grant hasn't changed, either. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, J. McCrae: The Honourable Member for Mi nnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: There was considerable upgrading. The Erikson Airport received a grant of $284,000 from the Federal Government. There's no matching provincial grant with that federal money they got.

I think that comes under some other category of an emergency landing for larger flights across the country. I don't know how they qualified, but they got a fare chunk of money there to put in lighting. They've got a good MP there, I guess. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That may have had something to do with it. I don't know, Mr. Deputy Chairman, why they qualified, but they did and no, that was not matched. We had a Capital Program for some . . . There was the operating grants of $600.00 a year. There's 25 commu nities receiving those.

And in addition to that, there was the capital portion of the grant and we haven't paid out too much in that area for some time now. There's a numb er of commitments outstanding. Winnipegosis is one, Erikson is another where they would be eligible for a $4,000 grant to assist in capital impr ovements. Very small but . . . MR. D. BLAKE: To lengthen the runway a bit or some thing. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. Now if they were to apply, I understand that they still have an outstanding request in, or an application in, that was many years old but they've never asked for it to be paid out.

So they still may be eligible for another $4,000 under the Capital Program. MR. D. BLAKE: The Min ister had the mobi lity disadvantaged figures at his fingertips there so we could maybe get those now. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well that is a program that has, Mr. Chairman, grown considerably in the last number of years, particular ly, the last year. We now have some 27 commu nities under that program. I believe about 12 were added last year alone under the program that was in place.

Under that program, we have a $6,000 856 start-up grant and up to $10,000 for capital to assist with the purchase of a handicap van or bus; and then up to $20,000 or 37.5 percent of operating expenses up to a maximum of $20,000 to assist in the operation that is in place. So what we've had in the last year is quite an expansion in the last three, four, five years since its inception in late' 81. We've had this particular appropr iation growing each year without enhancing the contributions to any one comm unity. lt has grown considerably just because there are more and more commu nities adding to the list.

So we now have, as I said, 27, with about 12 added last year. The reason there were so many added last year is because the Federal Government did have a program to provide additional money. First of all, two years ago under the UTAP program, they shared in the purchase of six buses, that was Urban Transportation Program. That was a federal-provincial cost-sharing program and they provided some assistance to match our $10,000 capital grant that we had.

Then last year they freed up some $1 20,000 which we were able to take advantage of under our program, coordinate it, so that the Federal Government put up $10 ,000, we put up $10,000, so we've actually provided $20,000 towards the purchase of a bus. And they cost around $30,000-$40,000 now so it was very significant assistance for those commu nities. So that's why it expanded so much the last year and now we're faced, of course, this year with contributing to the operating of all those additional franchises, if you want to call them that.

But Arborg, Argyle, Boisseva in, Brokenhead, Carman, Dauphin, Deloraine, Elkhorn, Emerson, Gimli, Glenboro - I've been everywhere - Ha rtney, Lac du Bonnet, Minnetonas, Minnedosa, Morden, Neepawa, Pilot Mound, St. Pierre, Selkirk, Souris, Steinba ch, Stonewal l, across all political lines, Stuartburn, The Pas, Thompson, Winkler , Winnipegosis, have all been included in this program up to now. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Did the Minister ever work for Greyhound in the ticket office? MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could tell me what changes in driver qualification have been made.

I understand that these drivers are all volunteer drivers and the handivans never really leave the towns or villages. I understand they now have to have a Class 4 licence to drive the handivan. Now in our particular area there was a lot of retired railroaders or Kinsmen volunteers, and whatnot, that were driving the handivans and some of them were a little reluctant to apply for the Class 4 licences; if they failed that they thought they might lose their Class 5. So they just retired, they wouldn't drive any more, so they were pretty stuck for drivers there for awhile.

When did these new requirements come into policy and what was the reason for them? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There hasn't been a change, Mr. Chairman. My un derstanding in the requirement for Class 4 licences since this program began, it's a requirement under The Highway Traffic Act, that anyone driving for compensation, or the service receiving compensation, must be a Class 4 driver.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 So that hasn't been tightened up. But obviously it will become more and more identified as a problem because the program is expanding so much throughout the province that there will be more instances and cases where individuals are perhaps reluctant to volunteer their time and to help out because they're afraid perhaps by going for a test they'll not only not get the Class 4 but they'll lose their Class 5 licences, if they bungle it up, too. So actually it's not a bad system in a way because I don't know how you can argue against that.

The fact is that the people should be qualified to pass a test at any given time and if they happen to not be quite ready, I'm sure they would make it the next time if they are competent drivers. So I don't know how you can argue against that and say, well under no circumstances should they lose their Class 5 licence regardless of how bad they drive. So I have to support that system although I know it causes some perhaps lack of volunteers in some areas; although I don't know how widespread.

I've heard about it a couple of times, got some letters on it, we've answered letters on it and we just haven't seen how we can change that system . But it is not something that has become more stringent. I just want to mention one other thing about this program before the member asks another question; and that is, we have just set up an advisory com mittee as well for this program, made up of users groups, handicapped groups, operators, commun ity boards or advisory boards in the various commu nities that are operating these.

Members of those boards are representatives of these boards, seniors and so on, to come together in an advisory committee that can provide some advise to the department, and to myself, on the way this is operating and in ways that it can be improved. They will have their first meeting coming up the 24th of June. So I think that's going to be an imp ortant addition to this program. MR. D. BLAKE: I just wondered, is Ms. Theresa Ducharme on that advisory com mittee? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, this is a Rural Handicapped Tra nsportation Program.

Theresa Ducharme has made her views known quite well in the urban area and has come into see me on numerous occasions, certainly as a strong voice for the handicapped people. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, back to the driver situation with the handi-vans. Is that requirement for licensing known when the commun ity receives a handi-van? I was just thinking, we've had people driving for quite awhile with a Class 5 licence and it's maybe fortunate we didn't have an accident or something. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I imagine so. Did you want to give us some names?

We have the Registrar of Motor Vehicles right here and we can fix that little problem up pretty quickly . Wes Graham is here and he's working as the person respon sible for this program over the last couple of years and I'm sure, when requested, he or other staff would - they do go out on numerous occasions to 857 meet with local councils and interested groups and talk about the requirements and the way it's set up in other communities. I don't know if that's one of the set pieces of information they give, I'm sure he does, so that is provided to the commu nities then and probably is a matter of course. MR. D.

BLAKE: He'll be sitting with us through the next

section or couple of sections of the Estimates? There are some questions we'd have probably under the Licence Suspension Appeal Board for him. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Under the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, we would have the Registrar of Motor Vehicles and I don't know if we'll have the board chairman around at that time. We could, if the member wanted to ask some specific questions there. - (Interjection) - MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5.(a)- pass . MR. D. BLAKE: No, hold on. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm just getting the Memb er for Turtle Mo untain fired up here.

He's got questions about tag axles and a few things . . . MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd ask the Minister, could he elab orate a little bit more on the policy that we now have in place for tag axles? HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, I'm not trying to get away from answering that, but I'm just trying to see where that should be. Traffic Inspection is where it should have been included, but . . . A MEMBE R: it's under Policy there. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That isn't the kind of policy that is developed by this section, I don't think. - (Interjection) - Yes, more a federal-provincial pol icy, the su b-agreement policy on major transportation programs or developments like the free trade area, deregulation, freedom to move - changes in there - and rail and trucking policy and things like that. MR. D. BLAKE: Where would be the proper place to discuss this tag axle? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well we probably missed it, so we can discuss it under Driver and Vehicle Licensing. I think it's probably peripherally involved there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Next item, Item 6.

The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, where would we then hit up about - I mean we have our semi's and our pups and now we're coming out with these three trailers. Where would we touch on that?

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: That probably would have come under the Traffic Inspections as well, but we have a weights and dimensions study which is really associated with driver and motor vehicle licensing. We've actually missed the best opportunity to deal with that, but since we're not being hard to get along with, let's deal with it now. MR. D. ROCAN: Just what is our stand right now? Is anybody contemplating what we're allowing right now, three trailers to be hauled behind a truck? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not in Manitoba that I know of. MR. D. ROCAN: Nobody's looking at it? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: No, there's a wei ghts and dimensions study that's being conducted by RTAC, which is Roads and Transportation Associa tion of Canada, and that is funded by all of the provinces and it's been ongoing for the last couple of years - a major study on weights and dimensions with an objective of attempting to get some uniformity in this area across the country. Right now there's all kinds of different weights allowed and configurations allowed, from one jursidiction to another, and the idea is to get some uniformity into that sys tem.

So that is being undertaken by all the provinces in Canada together. lt's funded 50 percent by all of the provinces; 25 percent by the Federal Government; and 25 percent by trucking-related industry; a total cost of $3 million over a number of years. lt's a major research study on this whole area and recommendations should be made probably this next year. They're finishing the study this year and making recommendations to the Council of Min isters by next year. MR. D. ROCAN: The Minis ter talks about uniform ity.

Would I touch on here also now - I belie ve I talked to one of his people here the other day about wide loads travelling on Saturd ay. Wide loads coming, say from Ontario, using Manitoba as a corridor on through to Saskatchewan. Would I touch on that here now? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Move your mike in a little closer there so they hear you. Well, the one thing I would jus t say on a point.

If we're finished Transportation Policy and Research, we could maybe let the gentlemen that are involved here go home and move on and deal with this issue under Driver and Vehi cle Lice ncing, or whatever, if you're finished with what they're here for or if there are other questions. I just ask for that in terms of the staff that is here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister had referred us elsewhere, when he was talking about policy dealing with rail concerns and I'm more concerned about some of the policy that this department of government might be involved in with respect to grain movement costs, transportation rates. I believe Mr. Ray used to be part of this department and maybe still is, and maybe ... 858 HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's the appropria te place to talk about that. I didn't refer rail and so on elsewhere. I said this is the place to put it, to discuss it. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm curious as to why this government, up to this point in time - either this Minis ter or the Min ister of Agricultur e - haven't really taken a major lead with respect to the Federal Gover nment's initia tive to incr ease the cost of transporting grain to eastern ports. I feel, from where I stand, and some of our farm organizations, par ticularly Manitoba Pool Elevators or the new Keystone Agriculture group have sort have been left on their own to fight this argument, although I'm aware how the government stands or at least the comments that they've made in public.

However, I really belie ve that it's incumbent upon them to take the lead in developing a quantitative argument in support of the rates and in support of the system that is now in place; or at least an argument that is in opposition to what the Canadian Wheat Board unilaterally indicated they would like to see some several months before now. So I would entertain, or at least I would like to hear what the Min ister has to say with respect to what his department is doing in pres enting the case and building the case for Manitoba grain producers.

No doubt, a year from now, not starting in the next fiscal crop year, but it may be a year from now, 1987-88, they may find themselves faced with significant increases in rates of transportation. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Wel l, it's a very technical and broad quest ion. lt deals with the new policy that was announced by the Wheat Board, apparently without consultation with their Min ister, which is something that I find quite amazing, that they would change the base point for calculation of initial price from Thunder Bay to Montreal, I think, the eastern point, which has the effect of inc reasing the price of transportation costs for Manitoba producers particular ly. When this was first put forward by the Wheat Board, we reacted immedia tely against it.

I guess there's a different philosophy in terms of approach as to whether it's incumbent or whether we should feel it's incumb ent upon us to develop an alternative and say, this is a compromise or this is what we'd like to see. I guess what we've been saying so far is, we think what's happening now is fair and that it should not be changed. So if you look at that as taking a non-leadership role, that's fine. it's mainly Al berta that stands to benefit the most, and have been pushing the Wheat Board on this matter. I'm sure that's where this all came from in the first place.

I was rather startled though that there wasn't a better communication, how this announc ement ever got out there in the first place. lt requires a change in the act, I believe, for either barley or wheat, one or the other. The other one requi res an Order-in-Council by the Federal Government, and I have every confidence that Charlie Meyer is not going to be one to be bringing that forward. If he does, he's going to be hitting his own farmers very close to home right here in Manitoba with a big increase. I don't think, from the point of view of equity in the sys tem, that Manitoba farmers should

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 be paying more, even if Alb erta thinks that it should be. The Keystone Agricultural Producers have taken a slightly different position. They say that they would like to develop a position. They've actually come in and met with our staff and Agriculture staff on this issue at about the time it was first raised. I don't know if there have been su bsequent meetings. I think they've been trying to develop, and they've indica ted to me they were trying to develop an alternative position.

We have offered our staff, in any way, to assist, but we haven't devoted and directed a tremendous amount of our staff's energies which are spread so thin at the present time because of the tremendous changes taking place in the area of free trade and deregulation and all of the modes that are keeping our people very busy in developing the positions. So we haven't directed our energies, and The Western Grain Trans portation Act, those costing formulas and, with other provinces and studies, we're very wrapped up in all those areas and have not then directed them away from those areas to develop this.

I would say that's kin d of do ing the Federal Government's job for them. If they want to make a change they should come up and give some good rationale as to why it's equitable to do so. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I agree with parts of what the Minister has had to say. Firstly, I think his explanation with respect to what staff is doing at this point in time and how busy they will be or are, when it comes to looking at all the various items that are before them today, I can accept that type of argument.

However, I would question whether or not it might be prudent for the government to at least lend some type of support, monetary if necessary , to whic hever of the organizations in Manitoba they see fit as having some expertise avai lable to work towards an alternative approach. For the Minister to say, well we think what we've got now is fine. What we have in place now is fine and, therefore, we'll play it along on that basis, reminds me of the government's argument on the Crow rate issue.

I know the argument there was, well let's keep what we've got, and we'll go down swinging and if it changes, it won't be because we've allowed a consideration for some type of compr omise plan. The Minister also states that the Federal Minister will have to, because he's from Manitoba, or at least he infers that he'll have to do his own explaining to Manitobans. Although, I point out to the Minis ter, as he's well aware, there are many Conservative members from all across Canada, many of them from Alberta also.

He points the blame for this to some degree on Alberta, and I share that direction of casting the blame with him. But the point is, I belie ve that there could be some very legitimate arguments from a Manitoba perspective as to why the theoretical model laid before us by the Canadian Wheat Board really should not be accepted. Part of the arguments in opposition to that Wheat Board initiative may be involved in looking at the actual costs associated with moving grain West, rather than the rate charges.

The Minister is aware of these 859 arguments, but I really can't understand why he doesn't believe that the Provincial Government has some role to play.

Again, I accept his statement that his staff is approaching being overw orked, but there are other resources out there in the private indus try who have gone through the whole transportation debate over the last 10 years who have some understanding of the issues, broad and specific, and who I think could help to bring forward a well-documented Manitoba viewpoint on the issue and one that would serve us all and one which wou ld, I think, allow our present Federal Minister in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board, to also make a stronger representation for all Manitobans in Cabinet. Mr.

Chairman, we must remember the Canadian Wheat Board, we're very fortunate to have it located here in Winnipeg, in spite of the fact that only a very small percentage of actual grain produ cers are Manitobans. I think we should not take it for granted that the comm issioners of that fine institution would - well the Minister laughs. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We don't take them for granted, don't worry. MR. C. MANNESS : . . . would not in some cases be prepared to move very readily to the detriment of Manitoba producers.

So that's what I want to leave on the record, and I would hope the Minister would take my comments seriou sly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well I think they're very legitimate comments. lt's, I guess as I indica ted earlier, a matter of priorities and hope that there would still be suffi cient time to deal with this issue if it does begin to heat up in the future, because we have so many others on the table at the present time.

However, there is always the chance that we could consider having a consultant work in this area, maybe an organization that is interested in doing the work with some expertise, and work with them on it. I would consider that. Certainly, I think the suggestion that the Member for Morris makes about defining and quantifying the actual costs of moving grain uphill as opposed to downhill should be something that should be dealt with at some point, because it stands to reason that it is more expensive to move to the West Coast. But that has not been done in the past and it's one area that should be looked at.

Of course, the alternatives of Churchill should be looked at for some portions of these grains as well because we have, through some of the initiatives taken there, found that there is definitely a cost-saving to producers that have not been accepted because of political powers elsewhere.

The Wheat Board, of course, has to battle with those and that's why I smiled when the member was talking about taking the Wheat Board for granted, because certainly we have never done that and we find that they are subjected to a lot of pressure from other areas of this country, shipping interests, grain interests, that obviously have dic tated to a certain extent some of the policies and practices over the years and I think that was evident in that particular announcement. We have been saying that the Minister respon sible for the Wheat Board should be taking a stronger role,

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 a more interventionist role, when dealing with the Wheat Board and that's why I was so appalled to learn, unofficially , that it was done pretty well autonomously by them, this announcement. I think that is symptomatic of the problem that we have that we should have more direction from the Ministers who are willing to take hold of the Wheat Board and get involved in some major policy questions.

However, I will take those comments made by the Member for Morris under consideration and discuss them with the Minister of Agriculture. lt's in his Estimates as well and I don't know if this has been discussed with him, but the question was aked in the House and I'll get a report as to what work has been done recently on it. As I indicated, we have so many other items going, especially this deregulation one as it applies to trucking primarily right now, because the tabling of The National Transportation Act amendments is to take place in Ottawa any da y.

We have been working - our staff 's involved in that whole area very much, to putting forward Manitoba's position and also in developing alternative positions. So we don't always sit back and wait for someone else to do the work, certainly, but it's a matter of priorities and that's why we haven't taken a real initiative in this area, thinking that we probably have a little bit of time and what we think is an inequitable step, will not be taken in the near future. MR. D.

SLAKE: Yes, I suppose this would be the spot where the Minister could bring us up to date on the lighter hopper cars that are being tested for the Churchil line, and the rail bus. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. The lightweight rail car, which has a low centre of gravity and is articul ated in the centre and has an extra two axles under it for better weight distribution, was manufactured in Transcona, unveiled last June a year ago, tested over the grain­ hauling season to all ports, to the West Coat, to Thunder Bay, to Churchill, and throughout the system.

And from the preliminary technical reports, we understand that it was very positively receive d. Unfortunately again, because of some of these political, small "p" or large whatever it might be, reasons, a lot of this positive dialogue or comment about this rail car may not come out in the public, but private ly there's a lot of good things being said about it to officials who have been involved with this car in terms of the loading and unlo ading capabilities and certainly its suitability for the job that it was built to do.

So we are at the stage now of trying to get a positive response from the Federal Mi nister on the manufacturing of say 30, or 40, or 50 of these cars to test the unit train of them, because we think that it's been so positive initially , as the technical reports have indicated, that we should go to the next step; or the manufacturing of the total production run, going right to that step. There was some $38 milli on in the su b-agreement for rol ling stoc k.

Only $6 mil lion was spent on rehabilitating boxcars, so there is some $32 million that could be spent on the manufacture of this car, at 860 between $80,000 and $100,000 per car, and in Manitoba at the Transcona Shops, which was the whole idea in the first place. But there's a lot of other problems associated with that. There's eastern car manufacturing companies who would want to get this business and we certainly wouldn't want to see that happen with Manitoba money involved. So there is that consideration.

There's also the other interests, as I have said, who would like to see this whole project scuttled and that it would not actually take place, that there would be this secure rolling stock for Churchill in the future. But I think it's to C.N.'s advantage as well, because they can use these on branch lines.

But those are all questions that are to be answered by the economic analysis that C.N. is to be doing and they've been delaying on releasing that economic analysis for the last number of months. lt was supposed to be ready last October, then it was suppo sed to be ready in Februar y, in March, now it's supp osed to be ready the end of June, and that's been holding it up. Apparently the Federal Minister is waiting for that report on the economic analysis. On the rail bus, there's been delays as well.

There are two rail buses up at Thompson right now ready for testing but they need to have final CTC clearance because they had a real problem there with knowing whether to call these rail buses a train or bus, or what kind of vehicle they should be. They didn't have proper

definitions to know whether they should have a bell on them, or a horn, and how many drivers you had to have, or engineers. There's all kinds of technical things that had to be sorted out. Apparently it's getting to the point now where they're going to be sorted out and we should be able to begin the testing. lt was supp osed to be scheduled for earlier in June already, the date, and then it's been pushed back.

We are waiting to get officially under way with the testing of both the MCI bus, Motor Coach Indus tries - well, a forerunner of inter-city buses - which was developed here in Manitoba; and the rail bus from Leland from Britain, Leland Bus, the rail bus, which is built for rail. Of course, it's proven technology and the only thing that hasn't been proven in the climatic conditions that we have here in Northern Manitoba, or in Canada, so that's one of the reasons why it should be tested, not only in the summertime, but also under winter conditions, to see how it will hold up.

But we met with Via Rail this morning and they seemed to be very anxious to get the rail bus in their fleet. Unfortuntely , they are already leaning more towards the British Leland bus than the one developed here in Manitoba. lt's like comparing a Model T with a Cadillac or a modern car because one is developed for that purpose and the other is just a first prototype of a converted inter-city bus. So it's really an unfair comparison at this time, but that's where we're at. We're hoping to find maybe a place for both of those technologies in Northern Manitoba and remote services. MR. D.

SLAKE: The rail bus, does that have the black box on the back, or do they have to have a conductor? A MEMBE R: Do they have one of those? A MEMBE R: They've got a trainmaster.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: They still can't get used to the idea that they should just get on this thing and drive it like a bus and look, ma, no hands even, you know. So they've got to have two crew on there and a trainma ster yet. I think these things will change a little bit over the years as they become more familiar with it and get rid of some of the old train regulations and requirements for this rail bus, but it's still so new that they're having difficulty applying the old rules to the new technology. MR. D.

SLAKE: What is the capacity of the hopper cars compared with the hopper cars they're using now? HON. J. PLOHMAN: 107 tonnes, I believe, versus 100. MR. D. SLAKE: 130? HON. J. PLOHMAN: 107. MR. D. SLAKE: For the new light one . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. D. SLAKE: 130? . and the other ones are about HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, 100. A 100-tonne hopper car is your standard hopper car. MR. D. SLAKE: lt's the standard, okay. This one's about 100, so your 7-tonne ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: As a matter of fact, the new lightweight rail car is about 7-tonne capacity greater than the standard hopper car. MR. D. SLAKE: Greater? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Greater, because it's two sections articulated, you add them both together as one car and you've got slightly more capacity . MR. D. SLAKE: I thought this was the problem on the Churchill line that you couldn't carry that weight. Is the distribution that much different on the new cars that they're capable of carrying it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, the difference is that it's a lower centre of gravity so it'll get less sway on uneven track, and it's articulated and it has the two extra trucks in the centre. Therefore, you've got weight distribution over one, two, three, four axles rather than two.

So that tends to distribute the weight more evenly and make it possible to have more weight because it's distributed more evenly. So the com bination of the two makes it suitable for an uneven line such as the Churchill line is at times. MR. D. SLAKE: Just discussing the rail traffic to Churchill, and hopefully it can be developed, has the Minister any studies at his disposal on the possibilities of two-way shipping traffic into Churchill? I realize that probably needs warehousing facilities, but what studies 861 have been done to encourage or to enhance two-way marine traffic in and out of Churchill? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, we've worked extensively on a lot of different leads in that area. There's not a chance of havings two-way grain traffic, it wouldn't seem, but there may be two-way traffic with other commodities imported such as liquor, which isn't a large potential because we just don't have enough volume there despite the efforts of perhaps a lot of people to help out, but there is the fertilizer - what's the name of that fertilizer that we were talking about? MR. D. SLAKE: Potash. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, there was the one that we were going to import, looked at with Cargill for importing from the Soviet Union.

A MEMBER: Is it a phospha te of some kind? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt was urea, and they export a lot of urea. lt would be compatible with grain for use in the new lightweight car as well. There is the possibility of, at some point, the alumina being brought in through Churchill for an aluminum smelter, which is still a high possibility for the Province of Manitoba in the future if the aluminum market shows some strengthening in the near future.

Obviously, that is a consideration, particularly with the possibility of exporting potash through the port with the Russell area being, of course, in one of the primary Churchill catchment areas. From an economic point of view, it is closer to Churchill than any other port. So there's that possibility that it would not only be grain being exported out of the Port of Churchill but also potash and perhaps something like urea or alumina in its partially processed form into the country. We've been exploring the possibility of corn from the midwest States, from North Dakota.

Their transportation institute has indicated there may be some cost advantages to shipping, exporting corn through the port, particularly once we have the firm hydro-electric source of energy for the port, because right now they dry this corn on the fields with the gas and it's quite expensive. lt could be perhaps partially dried there, shipped by rail, and then finally dried and loaded at the same time up at Churchill. Of course, that would mean that it would retain a higher grade of quality because corn tends to lose its grade from breakage when it's dried.

So those are some of the things that we've been looking at, and there's a major study on other commodities that we've just received under the sub­ agreements. There's one, as well, on season extension, another on tourism, and a couple of others on utilization of the seaso n, also the grain comparisons of cost of moving grain through the Port of Churchill which really are very promising, over 600,000 tonnes per year. lt's much more economic. The worst thing we can do is continue to have the port open and only haul 300,000 tonnes or something like that per year through.

Then it's going to lose money, and it's always going to be something that people can criticize and say it's just a drain. If they would use it

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 properly , it can pay dividends and benefits to not only the producers in Western Canada but has potential for other uses as well. MR. D. BLAKE: Is the Min ister getting any more encouragement or support from the Prairie Pools on the use of the Port of Churchill? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Wel l, you know, this is all part of the system; the grain compa nies and the pools are no different in terms of where their interests lie right now, with their major cleaning facilities and elevation services at the Lakehead, they want to see them used to the greatest capacity .

But the fact is that the Member for Churchill will not put up with that and will fight that tooth and nail. He's going to go down fighting, he says, right to the bottom of the Hudson Bay. So the Pools have kind of resisted getting in and I think endorsing what they should endorse on behalf of their members and saying something positive about it. I think it's because they are controlled by the senior people, eastern interests that are, I guess, dictating that they don't get off that wagon of support, or the anti-Churchill lobby groups, you know, and get on with what is really best for their members.

There is no denying that there are some savings there from a large area of Saskatchewan for the producers, and it's hard for me to understand just from a common­ sense point of view why they don't, but it's obvious that they are influenced from other sectors and for other reasons. That's one of the things we have to fight against in the future. The Pools have not come out and stated that they are in favour, and I believe that they are doing a disservice to their members by not doing that. MR. D.

BLAKE: But there is no warehouse facility at Churchill now for temporary storage of, say, container goods or anything of that nature? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think there is some warehouse space particularly for resupply operations and for a considerable amount of grain. There would have to be some alterations but not tremendous expenses to provide for more storage facilities there if there was an interest. So, no, there has to be some changes made to provide for the modern containerized shipping at the port. MR. D.

BLAKE: Has the Minister had any discussions with the other governments or with other departments on making Churchill a supply point, a distribution point for the North more so than it has been? At one time, it was a fairly active jumping-off spot for northern transportation or the suppli es. Have there been any further discussions to further encourage that or is that operation pretty well moved to Edmonton? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt's kind of interesting that the Member for Minnedosa has mentioned that right now.

Because of the downturn in the oil industry, and the fact that the activity at the Beaufort Sea has slowed down , leaving a lot of surplus equipment , ice­ strengthened equipment - barges and ships and so on - there has been an interest by other shipping 862 companies to resupply operations, to move perhaps into Churchill to supply other areas of the North that cu rrently aren't being supplied by - is it NCTL or - NTCL, Northern Transportation Company Limited, or whatever it is, that has been operating out of there for the last number of years but in a very limited way.

So they are also interested in expanding their operations, a company that is there. Another competitive company is interested in moving in as well and we want to encourage that. I think one of the biggest deterrents there is the C.N. rates on the rail. The Hudson Bay Company, for example, tried shipping through redistributing through the Port of Churchill and sending up their goods by rail. They found they could do it cheaper by resupplying out of Mo ntreal , and it was because of the prohibitive rail rates that were quoted by C. N.

On the other hand, C.N. is telling us all the time that they are prepared to negotiate and to offer developmental rates with new companies in lines such as Churchill and yet when it comes right down to it in practice, it doesn't seem to be happening. So we want to be involved closely in any discussions, and we've offered the services of the department to assist in discussions with C. N. because when we meet with the C.N. officials they are always quite receptive to those kinds of ideas.

Yet we're not sure, when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of it, in negotiations that they are offering lower rates to assist in ensuring that Churchill is viable, and accepting Churchill as a fact and deciding on their part that they might as well make it work rather than trying to scuttle it all the time. That's the kind of point of view we're taking with them and saying, look, Churchill's going to be here, it's a matter of policy and it's needed for sovereignty reasons and strategic reasons as well as for grain as a comp lementary port to Thunder Bay, especially when there are breakdowns through the St.

Lawrence, and you might as well get on and see how you can make it work rather than to see how you can kill it. I think if they change their attitude in that regard they're going to get a lot of business out of the power developments - Limestone, Conawapa and who knows what in the future - they're getting a lot of traffic out of that on the southern portions of the Churchill line. I think they have more reason to be putting some effort into ensuring that their operations to Churchill can be efficient by increasing their volumes. lt's because of their low volumes that they're having the problems. MR. D.

BLAKE: lt makes you wonder about some of the decisions. They have a rail line right into the Snow Lake area where there are two or three operating mines in there, and they jacked the price up so greatly on hauling the concentrates to Flin Flon that it was just prohibitive. So they just scrapped it and they're trucking it out and they are knocking the hell out of the highway with these ore trucks. You meet them six and eight at a time with big tandem pups on the back and going full force, so they're not helping the highway sys tem.

But the rail line was there, the rolling stock was there, I can't understand why they couldn't compete with the truck transport. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We found that to the hydro development, the rates are now about 60 percent of

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 what they were in the early 70's. If we put a highway into Churchill, I imagine we'd find lower rates too, but it's an awful price to pay. MR. D. SLAKE: That happened with the water rates at Gr and Rapids. The road got in two years quicker than they expected and they had a contract to haul everything up there by water. Anyway, those are all the questions I have. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)- pass; 5.(b)- pass; 5.(c)- pass.

Resolution 94 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,334, 900 for Highways and Transportation, Transportation Policy and Rese arch, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987- pass. No w, on Item 6, Driver and Vehicle Licensing, Resolution No. 95 - the Member for Aiel. MR. G. DURCHARME: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, jus t one quick question on driver testing. I wonder if the admi nistration, through the Highways Minis ter, has any consideration been given to reviewing a probation period for the motorcyclists?

My concern right now is that a 16- or 17-year old can go out on a beginner's licence, hop on a motorcycle, especially the first 90 days, and get on a motorcycle and go 130 miles an hour. There doesn't seem to be any control on the type of motorcycle that they do get for the proba tion period. lt's not like an automobile where an automobile they usually have somebody with them when they are beginning. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have looked at that in the past of stipulating certain maximum horsepowers or cubic centimetres, whatever it might it, for beginners, or until there is a certain number of years of experience.

I bel ieve there is provision made even in the amendments to The Highway Traffic Act when the legislation was passed for having that in, a regulation made to govern sizes , and the Registrar is looking at that whole issue at the present time. We have, of course, provided a new educational thrust in this area with the Safe Rider Program. lt hasn't been put in place as a compu lsory program as yet but that's another thought.

We wanted to start with a voluntary program, and it has been in place and quite successful the last year, for all new riders to take the Safe Rider Program in addition to a safety motorcycle course that's offered, both of these by the Manitoba Safety Council on behalf of the government. We're looking at that area at the present time to see whether there's a feasible way to put certain restrictions on size and power of motorcycles for beginners. MR. D. SLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to just talk briefly to the Minister about disabled drivers and the testing of disabled drivers.

I know he's received a copy of the brief from the Minnedosa area branch of the MlPH, the Manitoba league for the Physically Handicapped. I won't read the brief to him but it's on behalf of all the members of the Minnedosa area branch of the league. They are totally in support of stands taken by Souris and district and Beautiful Plains and various others, 863 protesting that the type of driver testing is done only in Winnipeg. They go on to state the problems that they have. They're often scheduled early in the morning and it requires the addi tional cost of coming to Winnipeg.

They very often have to have another driver with them and inclement weather, things of that nature, make this quite a serious - (Interjection) - handicap to them. They're asking the government to place equipment and personnel in the Westman area for the testing of disabled persons who wish to obtain drivers' licences. They go on to say, we have no quarrel with the equipment and personnel being located in Neepawa, Minnedosa or Souris. We would have been quite happy to have it in Brandon and we urge the government to act on this as soon as possible.

Signed by Jack Rudy, the Chairman of the Minnedosa Branch, with copies to the Premier and myself. I don't know whether the Minister got one or not. He probably did. Has anything been considered? I know I've spoken to people before and they give you the various reasons for it being in Winnipeg. But I recently had two reason ably young people who were quite disabled, both with strokes - young men - and one had a tremendous time in getting his licence.

I had to intervene and with the good cooperation of the people over in the department, we were able to overcome the main obstacle which appeared to be people in the medical end of it, not the driver testing, and once we overcame that all we were asking for was a restricted licence in daylight hours within about a three mile radius just to enable him to come from his home uptown for the mail and take his son to the rink and things like that. When we got all the obstacles cleared and he got in for a test, they asked him why he wasn 't applying for a full licence, why he was only applying for a restricted licence.

Now mind you, he'd improved a bit in his condition in the meantime. (Mr. Deputy Chairman, J. McCrae in the Chair. ) The other one had to make a couple of trips to Winnipeg and received his licence reaso nably quickly, but it was the problem of having someone drive him in and going through the rigamarole. I just wondered if any consideration had been given. lt doesn't seem as if it would be that costly; and I know they'll relate it back to the medical test or the medical requirements. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We had given that a whirl this past year, but of course with having to make decisions overall on bu dgets, in the final analysis it didn't get through; but we certainly realize the need and will be considering that again in this coming year, for an occupational therapist, a physiotherapist to be located in Brandon, that could service that area through the re-hab centre. We estimate the cost to be about $42,000 to do that. So if we put it relative to total budget, it's not that big; but when you have to try and meet certain quotas, it gets pretty difficult to add that.

So that's why it hasn't been included this year, but it's certainly not something that we're ignoring, we'd like to see. MR. D. SLAKE: I thank the Minister that he's cognizant of it. I might make a suggestion to him that, when Mr. Anstett's contract expires the end of this year, that it not be renewed, and we take that $55,000 and . . .

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay, we'll give that a shot. MR. D. BLAKE: . . . use it for that purpose because the people in the Wes tman area, of course, are very near and dear to my heart and we don't like to see them treated any differently out there than in the City of Winnipeg or those that have easy access to the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Chairman, there's going to be a considerable number of questions from some of my colleagues, and one in particular needs a little more time than we have tonight, and didn't wish to start on it until next sitting.

So if it would be the wish of the comm ittee to call it 10 o'clock now, rather than go through the charades of us keeping you busy for another four minutes . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, I don't think you have to do that. I would agree to call it 10 o'clock. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed? (Agreed) Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Sa ntos: Comm ittee, please come to order. We were consi dering Item No. 3, Ma nitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation - the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, I'd just like to ask a question.

I don't know who has control over all of the land, but just an inci dent that happ ened out in the Portage area alongside the Portage Diversion. There was a piece of land that for some reason the farmer got the first tax bill on it and paid it, and so the R.M. kept on sending him the tax bill. He kept on paying the property taxes and the province didn't find out until he left the country that they owned the piece of land and should have been collecting rent. Is this typical with a lot of the farm land? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Agriculture. Is this relevant? HON. B.

URUSKI: Possib ly, if the member provided me with those details. We're not aware of that situation at all through MACC, but if he provided the details, it may be somewhere within the department. I don't know the situation. If he provided me with the details, we'd be prepared to look at it. I'm not aware of the situation that the member speaks of. MR. E. CONNERY: lt was along the Portage Diversion area and a fellow by the name of Brian Moffatt had land alongside and somehow in the shuffle whoever - I don't know if that was MACC land or who all would have it.

Just a concern that you make sure that the government knows where all their parcels are and collects for them. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we'll look into it because there are several departments that may have had land. I say this not in jest. For example, when the province purchases right-of-way for, let's say, the 864 Portage Diversion or any major project sometimes, they may end up, in fact, agreeing to take the entire parcel. Then, it's left in the hands of the department. He's given me the name of someone nearby.

We'll have this run down to see where that situation is and which department has it and - (Interjection) - MR. E. CONNERY: This guy's flown the coop now. He's not there now. HON. B. URUSKI: I appreciate that. I appreciate the information that the honourable member has given, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FI NDLAY: The last line under 3. there, Special Farm Assistance, $6.5 mil lion. What would you like to tell us about that line? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the $6.5 million is for this year intended to be used in the Farm Aid Program, as part of the Farm Aid Program recently announced by the Mi nister of Finance, and will be used primarily to assist farmers going through the debt review panel process. Some of these farmers going through this process are considered good managers and are in severe financial situations, as a result of circu mstances beyond their control.

MACC assistance to these farmers could be in the form of guaranteeing that portion of their debt they are unable to service at the present and which lenders have agreed to set aside, bearing no interest until such time as their financial circums tances improve. In my discussion with the lenders, quite frankly , they are - at least in the main - a number of them have indicated that they are prepared to do those kinds of set asides. Second ly, refinancing farmers in cases where the outstanding debts have been renegotiated with lenders through the panel process, but where the lenders will not continue as creditors.

For example, they're saying, all right, we'll take our write downs and our shots, but we're out, we're finished. Somebody else has to finance them. This money may be required, in some form, in terms of special lending programs. In addition, the government is not only considering but has recently amended its policy of leasing and is considering leasing back properties to farmers whose properties have reverted to MACC by way of quit claim. This would include farmers who have gone through the panel process and have been refinanced by MACC.

Basically what we're saying is that if management is reaso nably good, the financial circums tances were desperate - and rather than chasing the family off the farm - we revert into a quit claim and release the land and give the family another opportunity at a start into farming. Again, qua lifying farmers would have to have demonstrated good management in the past and, of course, are in severe financial difficulties due to circu mstances beyond their control. We will be discussing this money as to earmarking.

We have not definitively earmarked the money for any specific program, other than what we think will be required. I

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 have given a commitment to both farm groups and the lenders, that as we're establishing our process, pursuant to the legislative package, we will want to hear representations made from lenders and hear their views as to what they'd be prepared to accept in terms of the entire process, whether it be by write down set asides, or whatever.

So we have deli berately not said this is what it will be used for because there may be circu mstances in our negotiations that we have not come across to this point in time and there has to be some flexibility in terms of meeting the financial requir ements of farmers who, we believe, could and should be saved. MR. G. FINDLAY: You mentioned that this package would be available to farmers of all ages. Are there any lim itations in that respect? HON. B. URUSKI: No, there would not be any age limi tation, as far as I'm concerned. We would look at each situation.

But I know, for example, in our discussions, the first one I said guaranteeing a portion of the debt is one that I belie ve clearly identifies some of the negotiating stance that we've had with some financial institutions and what they're prepared to do today. This area would be certainly one of the areas, most definitely, that some of that money would be used for. There's no doubt in my mind, in terms of the set­ asides.

Where we go from there in terms of other financial instruments, that we will work through as we begin the process of renegotiating the panel process, the reports, and see how far and how consistent the negotiating system becomes. MR. G. FI NDLAY: If and when the act comes into place and the boards and panels are appointed, is it the intention to have regulations written before any activity of those panels and boards com mences? HON. B. URUSKI: Before any of those boards and panels are actually functioning, yes, we will have to have the regulations written. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, I have solicited the views of farm groups. We've had one or two meetings with some of my staff and those groups, as well as the financial institutions, to hear their views, for example, on the process that is workin g in Saskatchewan. We've gotten views from the admin istration as to how the process is working. We also want to solicit the views of the financial institutions as how they see that process working in terms of the moratorium legislation in Saskatchewan. The process - I want to tell my honourable friends - we have not set ourselves on a particular course of action dealing with the panels.

There are a number of options that we have and we want to use the consultativ e process in the structure of the panels, the mediation board and the panels, in consultation with the farm groups, and try to have as flexible a system as possible that really works, that there will always be accusations of bureaucratic mumbo jumbo in any kind of a system that gets set up.

We try to have as streamlined a system as possible, recognizing though that if there is little or no cooperation 865 in the process, that if there is no cooperation in the negotiating process, we will ask the courts to not agree to by-pass the legislation. That's basically what we're coming to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: With respect to the special farm assistance amount of money that's being laid aside, the Minister mentioned two things, one that in some cases where no one would go into the moratorium state.

Would you then be buying out the banks and lending it through the MACC vehicle? HON. B. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, the moratorium only is on foreclosures. There is no moratorium on debt. All that the moratorium will do is say that, before a financial institution can foreclose, there is a notice to be given, (

a) to the court and to our Central Mediation Board, which gives what I would call a cooling off period, an investigative period in which the board then, through the farm - and here's where the process is not defined specifically, because we want to discuss with farm groups and financial institutions which might be a better process. But I'm going to give the members one scen ario that could be possible. That is, when that notice is given - right now, the financial institutions do not have to give notice to anyone before they start foreclosure proceedings. Under the legislation, notice will have to be given.

That giv es the Central Mediation Board an opportunity, either in conjunction with or directly to the Peer Advisory Panels to start meeting with the farmer, getting all the circu mstances, both from the farmer and from the lender, and getting both parties together and see what is the situation, what options might there be available and, in that way, prepare the report to the court. lt is my hope that, during this - I think it's 90 days - process period, serious negotiations actually will take place. In fact, there will not be a need to ac tually end up in a court hearing, that the negotiations take place.

Now in terms of the honourable member's question about MACC buying out, in terms of negotiating and refinancing packages, we are doing that right now. That's an ongoing negotiating process with farmers coming through on MACC, where the bank has said we're no longer interested in this client; we're on our way out. The farmer comes, look, can we in fact have a refinancing package? If viability is not there, basically we end up saying at what stage is there viability in terms of the debt load. In some instances, the negotiations take place, and the financial institutions says, all right, we'll take our lumps.

We'll take a write-off of a portion of our debt, and we're going to get out. If you're prepared to finance the rest of it, you're in and we take our lumps, and the farm is saved. Those ki nds of negotiations go on all the time. MR. L. DERKACH: To the Minister again, in cases where a farm is leased back to a farmer where the farmer couldn't meet his commitments, by owning the land, and MACC then takes over the land and leases it back

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 to the farmer, is there a point in time, if the farmer continues to lease this land, when that farmer can actually enter into buying that farm back again? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we're just working, because we are moving from the one - we were only into the one-year lease period up until this month. We are just preparing the guidelines in which a farmer who leases land back from the corporation will have an opportunity at any time to exercise his option to purchase between the beginning and the termination date of the lease which, in most cases, would be five years.

That's really what will be in the guideline. The exercising of the option can occur at any point in time. MR. G. FI NDLAY: Is their intention to save everyone? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, as I spoke on the Legislation, there is no way that we would and can, in fact, save every farm operation. I would be fooling ever yone in the Province of Manitoba if I said we could.

We cannot, and there are operations and operators, in terms of management ability and/or financial mess - let's put it that way - far beyond anything that anyone would be prepared to go short of, in some instances, possibly even an 80 percent or 90 percent write-down, total write-down of accumula ted interest and principal, in terms of management capability may help. I can't give - (Interjection) - the honourable member asked me to give him a specific, I can't give him a specific but I'm giving him the kind of range.

No, as diff icult as the situation may be for some families, I want to indicate to my honour able friends that we will be attempting to use what resources the Province has in terms of assist ing people to make the transition out of farming or into other areas, if at all possible. Or there may be cases , for example, in the settlement that the home quarter, or at least the home and the farm yard, is left out of the settlement so that the family is not forced to move away, given the age and the circumstances of the situation. So there's a range of options, but we will not be able to save every farmer . MR. G.

FI NDLAY: The Mi nister has commented briefly in this direction before, but I'd like to ask the question again. Because of the tremendous responsibility and powers of the mediation board, in particul ar, but also the onus that's on the peer advisory panels, is it the Mi nist er's intention to have broad spectrum of representation on the appointees on those boards, such that they're really all-party representatives there to prevent the criticism that comes when only one side of the spectrum is appointed? HON. B. URUSKI : Mr.

Chairman, I want to indicate to my honourable friend that the present peer advisory panels, when we discussed the setting up of those panels with farm groups and the financial institutions, the financial institutions did not want to be directly involved on those panels. They came out very clearly saying it really should be farmers in the area that should be involved on those panels.

They generally said we do not want to be involved directly and that we will make our case to them and have our facts known but, in general terms, they said this is a peer advisory panel, it's farmers working with farmers. 866 Now, I did at the time that we were setting them up, ask for recommendations from all members of the House, and farm groups, and I want to say, I did receive recommendations from people, from MLA's. Whether or not those people ultimately were asked to serve, I don't know because, for example, normally they worked in groups of three.

There may have been 10 or 15 people in a particular region and had there been only two or three hearings, maybe nine of those may have been called, or it may have been the same three that were called at the same time. So that I can't tell the honourable members. But know that I sent letters to probably 30 or 40 people initially when it was set up, whose names were subm itted to me, thanking them - I had staff approach them, and basically thanking them for servi ng, having them sign the Oath of Sec recy, because all those matters were to be kept confidential.

That's how the panels were struck. lt is my hope that the central mediation board, and we've not finalized it, may have representatives of all sides, that the financial institutions would be involved.

My word still stands, when I introduce the bill, that if you have names of people who might be prepared or could be contacted, who might be considered on those boards, I say this to all members of the House, get those names in because within the next, I would say, 60 days, barring the Session moving along, that we will have to start making those considera tions and at least making those decisions and seeing all the names that get involved or get recommended, and see how many we can appoint and balance this whole process out. I leave that to all honourable members.

Each of you know people in your areas that may be prepared to serve; let's have those names. That doesn't guar antee that they'll all be appointed, I want to tell you that. MR. A. KOVNATS: Can you guarantee that one will be appointed? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I say that in the peer panel process, I would think that unless we have such a large number of recommendations - the last round I don't think we left one name off. Every name that was provided to me, in fact, was appointed. MR. G. FI NDLAY: I thank the Minister for that offer. We will certainly be offering names for his considera tion.

You're intimating that there's some other group of people that are making the decision as to who is doing the work, and I'm wondering where this other group of people is or who they are. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman, in the present voluntary process, if a farmer's commun ications with his lender cease, in other words, they're not talking, they're not negotiating, they're not doing anything, he's been involved with our farm management specialist or our ag rep trying to do negotitations and everything falls apart.

What happens is he may want to have this matter reviewed by a panel and see whether there are any options or, if there were options and the financial institution wouldn't accept them, we would hope that the power of persuasion by the panel group might assist in that process.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 The farmer then calls the department One of my directors, who is responsible for this, would then set up and go through the list of names he has in each particular region, and ask those to serve. That's what I mean by someone else that makes the decision as to who serves. The process isn't run out of my office. I'll tell you, Morris Deveson is really in charge of the whole process of setting up the panels. When the farm management specialist or the farmer calls, whether it's myself or anyone in the field or the Deputy or someone in the office, the request goes over to Morris.

His role is to go over the list, set up the panels and let the review begin. MR. L. DERKACH: To the Minister, with respect to the mediation panels or the review panels or the peer panels, is there any criteria as to the qualifi cations of the people that sit on these panels or in terms of their financial standings, as well? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that there was any written criteria when I made the offer with the peer advisory groups. I mean, what we've tried to do is to say, all right, is this individual in the farm commun ity? How long has he been farming?

We didn't ask the financial circu mstances of each individual who has had, generally from the knowledge of people around, generally good management knowledge. We've tried to make the appointments on a geographical or regional basis, because there are five regions in terms of agricultural regions, so we've kept the northwest, the southwest, central, eastern and lnterlake in terms of the various regions, because the boards generally work through the regional directors and the farm management specialists in each region.

Given the type of operation, we try to have a mixture, or at least a cross-section of repr esentatives of producers in various farming enterprises on each board, so that if in fact it was a mixed farm or a cattle operation that was in difficulty with the panel, there would be someone could be selected on the board, at least one or two of those members would have a working knowledge of that kind of a farming enterprise. That's basically the criteria that we've used.

I want to tell you that I did not know most of those people who served on the board, but I did meet with a kind of a representative group of several of the boards coming out of each region. I think it was about 10 or 12 of the people who were on the boards. We met just to get a working knowledge and an explanation to me how they felt. I want to tell you that, in terms of the cross-section of people who worked on those boards, a number of those had been in financial difficulty themselves and were experiencing financial difficul ty, but were what I would say the typical produ cer, keeping everything to themsel ves.

One of the major reasons why this piece of legislation is on the table today is primarily because of that. We're hoping that we highlight the process and get people to come out of the woodwork before it's too late. That's really one of the major aspects of the legislation, getting it to the forefront and getting people to come out before the receiver is at the door.

If we can at least accomplish some of that, we will have done 867 something, because many of those units - I venture to say that we could probably negotiate and I think, with some consistency and flexibility on all parties, we could save a lot of them. But I tell you, when the receiver is at the door, chances are that more than half of the cases it's very difficult to save the unit at that point in time. We've had some successes, even under the panel process, but the successes are not consist ent. MR. L.

DERKACH: My question to the Minister is whether or not the people on the panels have to be active farmers, producers, or can they be the wives or the spouses of producers whose names could be submitted for consideration? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I would ask members that, to me, it doesn't matter whether it's the husband or the wife, they are equal partners in the farming operation, but I would hope that, in terms of some knowledge of the whole financial structure of the farm unit and the financing aspects, that whoever is put forward that members will consider their basic abilities and knowledge of reading financial statements and understanding financial aspects of farming, so that the discussions that do take place - because they will be meeting with the farm person who is in financial difficult y.

They will be meeting face to face, and they will be having basically a very intimate and direct discussion as to their farming operations. What we've tried to do is, of course, have those groups of people meet right on the farm of that indiv idual. So I think a working knowledge and understanding would be of prime consideration but, whether it's one spouse or the other, Mr.

Chairman, I have no difficulty at all, because I believe that in many instances it is the wife who does the books, quite frankly , and is probably the most knowledgeable in terms of where the dol lars are going and the financial aspects of that operation. MR. L. DERKACH: In many cases, there are women in many operations that are the more knowledgeable and certainly sometimes more compassionate. My last question in this area, the cost of operation of the panels and the mediation board is going to be sizable because of the number of people, the per diems, the travel; is that to come out of the $6.5 milli on? HON.

B. URUSKI : No, we have a start-up budget in the Technical Services Branch of $60,000 in another section. I could have put a stop to the discussion, but I felt that the discussion was very good in terms of the issue, even though MACC won't be directly responsi ble for the panels because they will be a lender;; tey will be another lender in the whole process. So they may be before the panels, as well as any other lender, in terms of the relations with clients. So there will be no difference of treatment as between MACC and any other lender. They are subject to the process as any other lender.

But monies to cover the panels, we've budgeted - I may as well tell the honourable members now - within the . . . I was just looking through the book on to the next appropriation. lt's not directly shown, but

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 we've budgeted $60,000 to start off with in terms of the setting up of the panels. The per diems would only be paid when members would, in fact, be working. lt would be per diems plus out-of-pocket expenses. That's what we've been doing with the present panel structure now. The workings of the board, of course, would be far more intense.

The main mediation board would be the one that would be drawing in from all the panels, and they would be the ones that would, in fact, be more active than the actual regional panels, because one region - mind you, in terms of work, they'd all be funnelling in, and that's how the process would work. MR. G. FI NDLAY: Does this whole process require a secretary or a manager or a permanent employee to make it function? Is that part of the expenses? HON. B.

URUSKI: Yes, it would require basically what one would call an anchor person, a staff person to be like the executive secretary of that board to make sure that all the information that is provided is consistent in terms of process and make sure, in terms of appli cations, that they're handled and the hearings are handled and all the information reports are provided, so that if the matter does go the court, all the steps are follo wed to make sure that the admi nistrative structure works. MR. L. DERKACH: I'd like to thank the Minister for answering my questions with respect to the topic we just covered.

I have only one more question and that is: would the Minister tell me who the chairman of the board of MACC is at the present time? MR. G. CUMMINGS: He can't be as good as the last one. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the members know who the last one was. I should tell them, it was my colleague, the new Member for Swan River, the Minister of Natural Resources was the previous Chairman of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, and I want to say, has done a very excellent job in terms of chairing that corporation. The present chairperson of that corporation is Ollie Sigurdson.

Ollie Sigurdson is a registered seed and grain farmer from the Arborg area. He was the former chairperson of the Ma nitoba Publ ic Insurance Corporation for a number of years. I should tell the honourable members, he served many years on the Canadian Cooperative Society in terms of Central - (Interjection) - Yes, he was on the Credit Union Central as well as an elected member, but he was also on the Interprovincial Cooperative Board.

He has a long history of credit union and co-op involvement, as well as being the chairman of MP IC and being on the board when it was originally set up, so he's very experienced in financial and, of course, active farming. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no intention of prolonging the proceedings, Mr. Minister. I just have a couple of very minor questions 868 to ask.

The choosing of the people that are going to serve on the panel. lt seems now that it's a change of policy for the Department of Agriculture, inasmuch as at one time it was quite selective and possibly the best people were not chosen for the particular positions. If the Honourable Minister will just think back a little while, when we did have a particular person who was appointed, or had worked on a board - it was on the Crown Lands Appeal Board - and I had suggested to the Minister that that particular person . A MEMBE R: Did an excellent job. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Well, he was doing an excellent job, but the Minister - whether it was the Minister or whether it was policy of the Department of Agriculture, I don't know, but that man was replaced. I'm not going to make any remarks concerning the person that replaced him because we got into quite an argument.

Where the Minister now states that he is going to hire the best person, or appoint the best person for the panel, is it because we are lacking people to serve on that panel, because the way it worked out before, it wasn 't - to my acceptance it wasn 't - the best person that was chosen to serve because of this particular replacement. I may be a little bit prejudice because this chap happens to be a personal friend of mine and his name is Bill Tkachuk and he lives in Menisino and he really did do a good job and the Minister agreed, but he was replaced.

So can the Honourable Minister tell me whether it's a change of policy in choosing people serving on these panels, or is the best person going to be chosen? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I place a separation in terms of appointments, and I say that to the honourable member so that he understands, the appointments to boards and commissions that the government has, generally, in terms of the dealings with those boards, it has been ministerial prerogative and, with changes of governments, those appointments were made and, in fact, in some instances, some were kept on and there are boards who I haven't changed ever since I'v e been here - appointments that were made before my time by your administration.

But there were some boards who I felt that the board structure of the time, that people on the board should reflect the wishes of the Minister and be, quite frankly, closely aligned to the government. I've made those decisions and I took some flak over it. I want to say that, in the case of these boards, we have felt that a cross

section of Manitobans, without consideration of alignment or non-alignment to the government, because we are dealing with the broad cross

section of farming commu nity. I don't know all the farmers, for example, in the Member for Virden's constituency, I don't know all the bankers. There may be a banking person who might be considered, for example, out of your constituency to serve on the main board. This type of a process that we're setting up is much broader than the type of appointments we've had in other boards and that's the reason for, in my judgment, that we have gone far beyond the normal practice of appointments in terms of people who are more closely aligned with the Government of the Day.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 MR. A. KOVNATS: I accept what the Minister has just stated and I congratulate him on looking to see tha t this is done in a proper manner, rather than on a political matter and it doesn 't have to be. A MEMBER: It will always be political. MR. A. KOVNATS: Oh, there's no doubt about it Bill, I'm not really sayin g that it's non -political but that's not the main criteria on how these people are being selected .

I just didn 't want our people to go through the motions of suggesting peop le to serve on these panels and, just for the sake because the Minister says, look I'm a nice guy, please send in names and you know what happens with the names? They get ripped up and thrown in the basket right away. I just want them to be considered and I want my people on this side to know that they are goi ng to be considered, and the Minister has just stated tha t they will be, and I accept that , and I thank the Minister for that. HON. B. URUSKI: I appreciate the member's comments.

I just want to tell him - I should have said it earlier - in terms of his com ment on best qualified . That' s the most difficult sort of, what I would say, the qualifications for the best is always in the eyes of the beholder, isn't it, and that' s always the most difficult situation of considering who is best. But as I said to the member's colleagues, Mr. Chairman, that every name that was subm itted to me under the peer advisory panel was appoint ed. MR. CHAIRMAN : No. 3 - the Member for Niakwa , just one more sentence . MR. A. KOVNATS: That's all, Mr. Chairman.

But the Honourable Minister really had no difficulty in knowing who the best person at Menisino for this board was , because I had told him who the best person was and there was no doubt in my mind. Would the Honourable Minister, at this point, reconsider Bill Tyachuk - he's a little bit political, but he certainly is very very qualified and he is the best man for the job. If you don't believe me, ask him. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 3-pass.

Resolution 8: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,106 ,800 for Agriculture, Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1987- pass . Item No . 4.(a), Agricultural Development and Marketing Division, Administration - the Minister of Agriculture . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the members' indulgence for about three minutes till I go to my office and get my other book. I did not think we would finish MACC this eve ning, if I could get my other book. Give me abou t two minutes . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1), Agricultural Development and Marketing Division , Administration , Salaries - the Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 869 Before I begin my rem arks on this division, I'd like to introduce for the honourable members, Tom Pringle, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister in charge of this entire area . Tom, has been, as many of you know , been in the depart ment in Room 20. Mr.

Chairman, programs and activities in the Agricultural Development and Marketing Divisions are comple mentary to the Farm and Rural Development Programs by providing provincial planning, resource development and coordination of activities and services which are provided at the farm and community level.

The Division Program activities include the support in communication of agricultural research , indu strial liaison , development of extension education and resource material, productiv ity support services in farm business management, crop and livetock production , and marketing , soil and water conservation, and management, and 4-H and home economics . These activities are carried out through the Animal Indus try Branch ; Veterinary Services Branch; Soils and Crops Branch ; Technical Services and Training Branch and the Marketing Branch.

There are a number of activiti es that I would like to highlight for honourable members , and I think I should in all the areas and that would give honourable members a bit of an overview , in general t