Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 24, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 38

April 24, 197 5 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1711 (Afternoon) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bonavista South. PK ~ 1 MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the residents of the following communities in Bonavista South, the community of Brooklyn, the community of Winter Brook, of Portland and of Jamestown. The total number of the signatures are 357 voters of the area. And the petition, Mr.

Speaker, is asking that the road which is now a gravel road, indeed a very rough, narrow, winding gravel road, that this road be reconstructed and paved. This road, Mr. Speaker, is approximately fifteen miles in distance, including the road that goes down through the community of Brooklyn as a loop road and down through the community of Portland, Jamestown on to W!Lnter Brook 1 fifteen miles _ of road which they e.re asking for to be reconstructed and paved.

All the school children in the area from Winter Brook and Jamestown and Portland and Brooklyn are transported daily by school bus over this gravel road to Lethbridge and Musgravetown where the elementary school and the high schools are located. Also the many men in the area,because there is no employment there except for a small woods operation, __ these men are working in the Clarenville area, they commute daily back and forth from Jamestown and Winter Brook to Clarenville where they are employed, and the need for the road is justified on that basis maybe alone.

The population of the communities are not large, and over the years the previous government their intentions were to relocate these settlements, to resettlement them and to move them into Lethbridge and Musgravetown. But the people who choose to stay on, the populations have been growing slowly during the past four or five years, and they are determined to stay there, remain in these communities in the hope that governments or government will provide the services, in this case a · .good transportation system,to their communities. 5041

/1pri,l 24, 1975 Tape 1711 (Afternoon) In support of the petit i on, Mr. Speaker, I would like to out that thiis morning a delegation fro m these communitie s who pr a p e tition to me as their memh er, we also met with the Minist er Tranisportation and Communication s , and his assistant deputy mini ancl we cliscuss e d at len 13 th tl1eir problem and what we hope could in tbe next while, whe ther it b e this year or next year.

And th has assureed th e delegation that he will look into their problem giv e them an i dea in the next number of weeks what the departmen hop e to do in that area durin g the next whi.le, whether it be thi or next year. So I support the petition recognizing the fact that Bonav South is bein g the most neglected distr i ct with regards to upgr a and paving of roads over the years.

He have approximately over, there are 115 miles of gravel road in Bonavista South - little c pavement don e by the previous government - 115 miles of rough gl r.---::~-f.~..;.;.;.- :-------------- .,..,,.,.d--.---So-7:-h-i-s---i-Htceen--m-i·les-i-s---part of m1a1Gh-.ne.eded-r.econs.tr.uc.t.J and it is hoped that we can as a government in the next two ten office carr y on and do the work that we are now doing in Bonavi : South. AN HON, HEME ER: Hear! Hear! MR.

MORGAN: We did substant i al work last year, and I am hopi 1 within the next two terms of office we can hopefully by that ti: all the road work in my distr i ct reconstructed and paved. AN IJON. }!EMJlER: Hear! H;ar! MR. MORGA,";J: So, M.r. Speaker, we are doing work this year Ronavista South but recognizing the fact that fifteen miles tha pe tition is as king for will cost approximatel y , to reconstruct pave according to the engineer's estimates $3 million, and the 5042

April 24, 1975 Tape No . 712 NM - l MR. MORGAN: the (edernl i::ovei:nment r ef uses to recop:nize. t h nee1l foT re const ru ction of roads in thes e rural pa r ts of ouT Provjn~e, ~uch nee ded transportation system \t<ure ,bu t he face that OREE and th e federal eove·rnmen fail t o reCOJl:nize thi s very important need an<l therefore fa:!ls to have any financial imp ut, unfor unateJy we have to hear alJ th e brunt fi nancially of carryi nr. out this kind of work . So, r .

Speaker, in closi nr my remarks I s upport the petit on and ! hope i n che future , whether it be t his year or neY.t year , that these kind.,; of problems where we. have school child r en poinr. bac l ,md fo rth each day over r ounh rr avel roa<l s s u ch as we have James town W.inter Brook and Portland, be overc ome by means of rliloonstr uc tion and eve ntu al paving . MR. SPEAKER: The hono urable Member for Bell lsla nd. "'IR . NEARY : Mr.

Speak.er, I rise t:o support the petition present d by he le.mber for the time bein 3 fo r nonavis ta South on behalf of h1.s constitue nt s in .Tamestot-m, Winter n roo k and in the Or_ool<lvn a rea . J ha ve had a number o f repri>.sentations from the peop le in that arna, Sir, over the last: 1~eek or so and 1 ;,a s very lad to be able co coUTlsel thes e people and give them adv1.ce and to t ell t hem bo1,, tl ,ev should r.o about resolvinl? cheir problem. • IR.. HORGAN : (Inaudible) come down in the next election • IP . NEA.'!\Y: Hr .

Speaker, hel.ie ve, I am not qu i t e sure,but l believe all th ese communities on whose beha1f the member just presente d th petition, T bel; eve all these communities in the next elec 1011 w1 J 1 he in t he new Di stri ct of 'l'e.rra Nova . . m. t-lOR<;AN: l naudible. MR . Nr:.ARY: Rut in the meantime the 1 le.mher for 'Bonavista ~011th is pl'esen J y their memher and of courne ri:;,h ly so they I l"r,t hrourh 1,1,., t o nsk him to present hat petiti on.

Prj or o say 1Cl71, OT ] 072.. r . !':r,r;,tktn, i,p P was a tremendo us amoun t of pav jnr ck,ne in that area and any rnvtnr (lone now, Sir on tn1nk ro11ds in th e ,rrea as 1 uncl~r!. t and j , would be ninety per cent paid for by the r.:overnmen t of Can.:ida unclcr clie nCI,' nREJ: Of'Teemen t. M~ l!Oil . ME!,fr.P.R: Trunlt roa,ls . 5043

April ~4, J'l75 Tape No. 1712 N!'' - 2 '-m. ;;;:;;,,p_y, Trunk roads, yes Sir. ;,!T.) .,..prn~~: That is true . Tell the truth now. Jlo,,,ever, !'.r. Speal:cr, it really doe s not make any cliffer e nc:e who pays for it, the peorJ.e are quite justified. It i, the Canadinn tnxpayE:rs and the :Je,:,;foundland taxpayers who vrj_ll pe: it anv,-.'ciy, whether it is ninety ten, ,-,hether it is one hundrecl pe i by th e nrovi nee I i t really does not make any difference that the r1 :Ir. Speaker, is quite justit:icd.

It is unfortunate, Sir~ i n th'? three years, that the great pavinf , pro~ramme that was begun down flonavista way , .. ,as not continued by the present administration. I ~oes to shm,, Sir, hm,• much we :c,iss Rossie. He may have to [(et h af(ain. They Pven named a bri<lfe after him down there. ~.re there any other petitions? The honourable Min of Tr.ansr,nrtation and Cornmuni ca tions. '·lF, Rnt:SSEAP: I ,-rnuld like to speak on this one first, l1r. Speak met with the delege.tion this morninp at the request of the honour me1°!-,er and there are a number of problems down there as the membe surrested.

There are fifteen miles of road which is to upgrade a of course ,.-,hich w<> do not do in one year anyway, as it woulc be a of anrroximately S3 million which would be more than ten per cent provincial burlr.et.

The member is quite right and ,-.'hen he sugp-est Department of Reg.ional and Economic Expansion will not consider trihutary or off rnads in a Province though the main thoroughfare a matt er which they will consider so it is left completely to pre funds. ~-)e had n meeting with representatives from each of the c:01 this rnorninr, They were elected a week or so ago at a public mee1 the nrea and I assured them of two thini,:s this rnorninr,, that one take a look at the bridge down there which they are having some with and also we would look at the maintenance programme. They complaints in respect of that.

They were quite happy with the s1 prop;ramme for the winter but tbe summer maintenance programme wa1 5044

are April 24, 1975 'tape No . 171'> N· - J satisfactory in their opinion, wr, t,ave made a commitment ~•e 1~ould ta ke a look at that . He m:.ide no commitment :In respect of cap'Lal spending for reconstructj .on .,of course ;:mrl not io r pavinJ• as we to ld them . And 1,,e e:>;plaine,: th sit ua ion to them .

They were reasnnahh · people and we accept that . r mip-ht s·urpes ch a the hono ,n.-able membe r had mentioned last , ·eek to me abou a meetinp with a deler ,a i on and ! had not recalled wh:lc:h delep .ation tl11i:y were he.cause, the nun1her of telephone call s you rel are: C]Uite ,; few reque.s inr n " inr s ~•it li the minister . The honourable Member for 13ell. Island ai.ked a questi on in he House last week and the name did not tick with me but I had arranred a mee inr previously w,ith the peopl e from that area and las AN HON . ffi·ffiER: Inaudible.

MR, ROUSSEAU: - last week the member ha<l mentioned it 5045 .,_

April~~, 1975 . Tape 1713 and I rlid not 1,ave the. opportunj.ty to meet Hitr, tl1em but I w2s p] this mornin~ to meet with therr.. You ]:now, it is difficult, I car apprPcL:1tc, the wily these peep] e feel all across the Province ancl can only try and explain our position to the!'\.

They were underst this r10rnjnr and cert .1 inl.y I unclertool : to write them within the 1-1er,l: or so~so tlw.t they wil] be able to go bacl: to their public 1 and explain just what the situation is in respect to governr1ent. 1-,e will take a lool·. at it and the two commitment s that I could t that I lcnew I co11l.d carry through on, I did take. The other com which I was not ahle to commit to them, I will put it in writing I will. take the b runt for it.

They did their job by coming in a member did his job by supporting them and now we have to look at a total context of the "ighways Programme in the Province and t!· have a letter within a week tl1at they can present to a public me dmm there from me and we will outline our position in respect I at th a t time. l!r-. SPf.AlU:R: /\re there any other petitions? 1'10TICE OF 'mTION: 'TR. SPEN:'.ER: The honourable !·1inister of Ju s tice. -------~- --- Nr. Sp e al cer, I give notice that I will on t ask leave to introduce the following bills: A bill, "An Act F /\mend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act," a l1ill, "An Act To Adopt "or The Province Of Ne-,foundland." AN HONOURABLf. HE~nlER: Inaudible. l[R . llICKMAJ-1: That is just for anyone who might be listeninr The position is that we have discovered that the Ode to Newfom nevc-r heen legally recogniz ed as our anthem and we are detemi1 thi.s shall he done . N'l HONOURABLE !El-lllicR: Hear: Hear! A great step forward. HR. l!ICIJ!AN: ()n behalf of the !lonourable the l.inist.er of Fin i:,;ive notice that I will on tomorrow a s k leave to introduce the bills: A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Public Service (P Act," a bill, "An Act Further To A.'11end The Civil Service Act, 5046

April 24, 1975. Tape J 713 nP - 2 "An Act RespectinR '£he Counting Of War Sen,ice Ml Pensionable Service " and the honourable the 1-!inist:e.: of: Finance will move the House into a Committee of che Whole o consider certain resolutions in relacion to tl1e advancing or 17,uaranteeinr, of certain loans . or.AL QUtSTIOtlS : HR. SPEAl:r.R: '!'he honourable •!E'.mber fo r laccmtia r.ast. MR, F • AL YH/IRD: Mr . Speaker I would like to direct I\ IJUestion co i:he . linister of.

Transportation and Communications . l woul d lil co ;rnl: the ninister if he would bring the House up to dace on what steps 11 depnrc ·­ rnent 11ave been tal•.ing to improve the road conditions on the Cape Shore ,whic h I am sure he must be auare of, in the past few days? ,IR . NEARY: He got that ans we1: yesterda •. l!R. .i\l..YWARD: Hell, it needs to he anmvered ag,ain today, •tr . ~peaker . MR. SPEAJ R: The honourable •!:i.nister of Tra:,sport a tion an,! Conn11mic.1 r.ions . t!R. ROUSSEAU : I will gladly a::iswer chat.

The honouraM .e nem er hos been on my ba ck for the past few days in at emrtin:; to get some 1-,orl- done down in that :!rea . First 0£ all, l et me say !1is, that we :tpp reciar. c the situation that exists <town there . The· have harl a h:,cl win e<:> an<I the children dot•m there have lose a number of days of school. The <=itua ion is now tha ·t ap m:entl they a re losing more school 1-ccaui;t> t lic scl1ool 1 w;es cannot gee over the road .

Somebod has to take the frust r a ion out on somebody anr.l tl1e logical man is clie Pinis t cr of I!ic.1t::?'•s . 1 h:.1ve :,oc been do,m to the ru:ea, hy th<l 1:ny a thoue-h T ha,\ 2l1 invitation .hi s morninr . from the Supcrinte.nclent of Education r ue, OU kno ,:, it is j ust no ·way I can te t down . I kno w the road is baJ . I do llOt helitclc :111. - body suggestinR that the road is bad . Yesterday we dil:ec ed a hullilozer do,m t here . .101.', there ~-:as a hulldozer suppose to co do1-1n a lar~er o.ne, to accumula o. some r.1ate1:inl as I suggester! to the House yesterda-y .

A smnlle.r on e was inserted and HC are attempting now co find ouc 1~hy cha smaller one uas sen cloun in::,tead of the one we ro(Jues cd . That smaller one is able to rlo 11<> i oJ, tha has o ,e don , in other words, to accumuJ ace lie mate.rial clrnt the trucks c.:in haul on the roac! . The reason for the bif.jler one Wf!!l o 5047

,'.priJ :?~, 1975 . Tape 1713 accumulate a stocl: pile so thnt in the future we would have it tl That is not in any way going to deter the ongoing problem that 1 exists do,-m there. \-Je have made a The biz one is going <lo"vm?

The ],i,: one is going do1-m but what I am tryinr ti is the fact tl,at the smeller one is d01,m there will not affect a1 reconstruci::ion we can do ri,r:l1t no,\~ l,ecause it ·will do the ongoin1 I.TJ111 t we liad hoped that the lar:ser one would do was to accumulate so that t•1e uould also not only do the job to upgrade the road bu have a stock pile there in the event we got a heavy rain some in the future. llut the construction company that we had this do from substituted the s=ller one for the larger one dicl not tell and we have asked them for a reason why they h,we done that. ~·1R. NEPJtY: /lR.

SPE/IJCElc: t'!R. J;OUSSE/\U: The Premier said to say you are going Hr. Speaker, is this - Order, order, please! Does the honourahle member - this is a matter o to a lot of people . 'II' . . ~,T:ARY: Does the member go to the minister? Ml' .. ROUS Sf.Al ! : llell, he - 5048

April 24 ,1~75 Tape 171~ (afte rnoon) JIH MR. AYLWARD: 'IT . Speaker, 1 dC'I not think the questions nre - on a roint of order. 1 do not think any honourable member has any monopoly on questions here. Any mcmbe?' of the !louse of Assembly is entitled ro ARI< a que stion . My only renson for as\d ng it - T knot•• the answe?"s hut I want the public and the people of St. n ride 1 s to know the answe r s. MR. NEARY: Well , why do you not put out a question? MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleas e! M.R, ROUSSEAU: You know, the - MR. NEARY: Inaudible . }IR. SPEAl(ER: Orde r, please! Order , please! MR.

ROUSSEAU: You lrnow, the only chin r, we can do - we would l 1 lee the reorle of St. Bride's - I know they are upset and they are upset w1 th me, you know, lluc, you know, a Ll T can te 11 them is that we "re doing "•hat we can do. I hope they can appreciate t.hat . J haw directer! " concentrated effort . I have sent the chief engineer of the department and the superin cendent of the di11trict down. They are down there now in the area caking a look at it. The dozer is down there.

I have ordPrPcl as many trucks as we can get together to haul the fill that h"s been unloaded co do the road . t thinlr. t hose o! us who had the opportuni cy to see it on television last night recngn i ze the n r oblc.ms. Really to call it a road is proba1'ly hE'ing cha ti table . J t is not really a road . We have had a had Winter hy everybody's estimation down in t hat 11rea, the worse one we h11ve ha.d for t h:I rey, for ty or fif ey years depending on who you talk to . The frost is coming out of the iround .

The run-off from the snow that is melting is providing ·a very difficult situation io respect to the roads . All T can say to the people of the area is WE' are doing ou r best . 111ere is nothini. more> we can do . I appreciate the fac t very much 1 as a forme r teacher,o f the children missing school . That is not something we wish to have this Winter . When the problem was there we flew them from the area by h elicop rer into school t o make sure they got to school. We will do everything pC1ssible that we can do ·to get the rnads upgraded.

I would hore that by com01;row at the latest we will have it so that at least it will he passable . We will coot1nue work ing and attempt to make the road as 5049

AprU 7.4, 1G75 Tape 1714 (afternoon) rassnble as nnssfhle. We will rlo everything in our power. As Is, I havP orrlererl a concentrated effort and that is all we can do righ now. HR. NEAPY: Mr. SpPaker, a supplementary ~uestion, Sir. What the p really ncPd 001,m there is a ne,,., politic.al spokesman. ~•R. SPf:AKEl': nrrler, please! nrder, please! Mn. NEARY: llut, Sir, a supplementary, Sir - ''R. SPf.Al<f.R: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister. MU, HICK~AN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. That is not a supplem ~uestion.

HP, NEARY: No, I am putting a supplementary question to the mini MR. SPEAKr:P.: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - if the minister would just restrain himself . '1R. SPEAKJ::R: If the question neriod :ls tn continue . as it should, t I suggest the honourable Memher for Jlell Island ask questions and n make speeches Prior to that. MR. Nf:APY: Woul.r1 the minister tell the House whether or not the pr in .St. llrirle's is that the equipment is therr> hut all the highways people neer- rlo,;,.,n there is the go ahead, tl1e okay from the minister use the e<]uipment. ls that the problem? '"!R.

ROUSSE/Ill: Nm,, thAt is a heautiful question, ~r. Speaker. Th, i.s a beautl ful question. This Winter when the problems wen, dm-m t i and wl1en the prohlems were anywhere in this Province I ordered them p,o ahead flt whatever cost necPssarv to get the equipment down there during the Winter. I just ordered them down there nm,, to get as mu1 equipment 8S they need, every truck we can get ahold to - }<r. NEARY: \,Jell. that l.s what I wanted to know . '1R. R01TSSEJI.U: - to haul this fill. I have .iust suggested that nrclered :anc:l directed a concentrateci effort down there. Now, that i, J can r1o.

I have sent tFo top officials from St. John's down this 1 to tal:P a .look at it as well. I have ordered the ciozer. The dozer subs ti tuterl which is not particularly pleasing to tr,e department. asld .ng thE' construction company why. We understand there was some 5050

April 211 , 1 75 Tape 171A (afternoon) with the la.ger one. The dozer down there no,,, lo.'ill dig out the. rock . The heach rock or the pebhle rock 11pparen tly that was being pu on 1 t was too slippery, was no doing the job , and hat is all we can do, you l:now, Ol"det: the concen rated effort . l cannot go do n myself, you kno~·. -.•ith a shovel and a trucll and grodet: . That is 1111 we can do. But, I can tell you one thing, that - _MR. WEARY : You_ went down in a helicopter. MR . ROUSSEAU: - we appreciate the situation and we certainly intend to rectify it as soon as iR humanly pnssihle. 1R . NEAR·: r.

Speaker, 1 havP a question for tl&E< Minister of ,Justlce, Si r. Would the Minister o Justice care to react to public statemen s that there is a line up to get into jail , that you now ha e tc> queuP up, wait your t.t.Lrn to iet in o jaU, to get into Tier Majesty's Penitentiary . Ill - 3 ls this tn1e? It is unbelievable. Could the min.lster, you know, enli&hte.n the House on this situation? MR . SPEAl'ER: The honourable inister of Juscice . MR. TllCKMAN: Hr. Speaker, there are at pn~se.nt 129 i nmates in Her Majesty 's Peni tenciaty at St . John's and seven y at the 1-almonier Correc .ion al institution .

Of that, I thank the honourabli> gentleman for aski ng the question. MR. NEARY: He came prepared. He has the information already. MR. BIC)(MAN: There a-i:e fifteen prisoners in lier Majes ty' s Penitent:iary who are the responsibiliry of the Govermnent of Canada,known as federal prison ·ers, thi.rteen of whom are not,1 ready for transfer to the federal i ns itut.lons, and they will he transferred out as soon as the Liberal Government in Ottawa i nd ica e that they are prepared to accep them. 5051

April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1715 Page 1 - mw Treasury Board of this Province has approved the acquisition of a trailer to house some of the inmates who are minimum security hut the fact is that there are more - MR. NEARY: There is a waitin g list. MR. HICKMAN: Waiting list is not the word, Mr. Speaker, at :: all. MR. NEARY: Then what is it? MR. HICIQ-\AN: The simple fact is that both the police of this Province has been doing an excellent job in apprhending criminals. _!lR. NEARY: And there is no place to put them. MR, RICI.WAN: I realize this disappoints the Hon.

Hember for Bell Isl , but they have been doing a first-class job. Secondly, the courts have been imposing adequate and appropriate sentences. MR. NEARY: That is debatable, MR. HICKMAN: And both the Salmonier institution and the institution known as Her Majesty's Penitentiary are presently filled. We could accommodate all the provincial prisoners, all the provincial inmates if the federal government were in a position to take their thirteen off our hands and transfer them to - .Hf-. NEARY: What about Sprin ghill? MR. HICKMAN: - to Dorchester and Springhill.

We have requested that the transfers take place and so far they have not indicated to us that they are ready to receive them, But I would hope that this transfer will occur in the very near future and this should eliminate any problem, We have had that problem before. You know, for the past fifteen years - MR, NEARY: Not as severe as it is now, MR. HICKMAN: Yes.

Over the past fifteen years it has been just as severe and even more so at times, but it is always for a very temporary - it is a very temporary problem that is solved when the federal prisoners are transferred to the institutions in Springhill and in Dorchester. But, you know, I do not want anyone to misinter 5052

A.pril 2/l, 1975 Tape no. 1715 'Dage 2 - mw what I am saying, and I am not saying this out of lack of compassion because I believe that the last place a person should go is to a penitentiary. I think that every other effort should be made first. But I am moved to suggest,to point out to this House that obviously the two police forces in this Province are doing a first-class job of apprehending those who break the law, because the apprehension rate is increasing very substantially and obviously the courts in this Province are reacting in imposing penalties that are in keeping with the crime.

But I am still not convinced, maybe I am wrong, but I am still not convinced that ve should take any great pride in this. My feeling is that the emphasis must be on the rehabilitative process. Last year, for instam.ce, l .ast year in Newfoundland, I do not know if people realize it or not, but we had one of the lowest incarceration rates than we have had in about twenty years and the reason for it was that our courts, I think, were availing of the eonditional sentencing. But be that as it may the responsibility of the police are to apprehend.

The responsibility of the courts are to fairly and equitably adjudicate and to impose equitable sentences and this they are doing. Unfortunately, we have a full house at this time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speakei;, I have a question for the Ministet: of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir. Would the minister tell the House if the financing and arrangements for borrowing and all the plans are yet finalized so that--the town of Bonavista may continue with its water and sewerage installation that was started three or four years ago under the former Liberal Administration? ]:IR. SPEAKER: The Hon.

Minister of-Munidpal Affairs and Housing. HON. n. PECKF'ORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Hr. Speaker all the pro j ects that are presently underway by the Departm~nt of Munic;Lpal Affairs have been started in the last couple of years. They 5053

April 24, 1975 Tape no, 1715 Page 3 - row are being looked at in light of our capital works projects this year, and we will have the decisions for all these councils as to the amount of the second phase or the third phase of any project that will be expended on that project this year. It is rather premature for me to indicate precisely what will be don e in Bonavista or in any other place, because we are still in the midst of getting the final lists done up which should be done in a few weeks time, Any project that has been started will be completed by the administration.

It is just a matter of the degree of money, the amount of money each year to be spent on the various phases until it is completed, So it is just a matter of how much money will be spent and that I cannot say yet until we finalize our programme, 5054

April 24, 1975 Tape 1716 (Afternoon) PJ.: - I MR. NEARY: A supplementary - MR. SPEAKER: Before 1 recogni:i:e the honourable !ember for Bell Island, I would just like to - MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, okay. MR. SPEAICER: - to welcome to the galleries Mayor Edward Parsons and Councillor P.alph Cook from Parsons Point, I welcome you to the nalleries and trust that your visit here is most interestin g and informative. The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR.

HEARY: Sir, a supplementary question to the honourable minister. ls the minister aware that the Town of Bonavista have already 1 or the m.inister' s department. have already ordered the pipe and mat.erials and they are just waiting approval now so rhey can complet.e their borrowin g to get on with this project before the coat further escalates? MR. PECKFORD: Oh yes that is quite logical, Mr. Speaker, we do it in many places where we order the material and so on , and then arrange for the borrowing after we have realistic prices on the material. Yes tha t is qu:l.te fine, Sir , quite fine. MR.

NEARY: Sir, could the minister be a little more specific and tell us whether the borrowin& and the financing will be arranged say within a period of a week, two weeks? now soon will the decision be taken? MR. PECKFORD: No , l cannot he any more specific at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bonavists North . MR. P. S. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, 1 have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Could the minister inform this House if he has received petit.ions from the sheep farmers of Conception Bay North as pertains to protection from dogs for their sheep, and if so, what action he has taken? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS: (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, 1 have no knowledge of a petition being received unless it is today, I have not seen it yet . 5055

April 21,, 1975 Tape 1716 (Afternoon) p NR. THOMS: Inaudible. Sir, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of '1unicipal Affairs and Housing. Could the minister inform this House as to what ~uality of lumber the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is talking about in their letter to all tenders? They say that if local lumber is to be used wherever possible providing that the quality is right. Could the minister explain this word 'quality' , does it have to compete say, for example, with B. C. Douglas Fir or something like that or is it top-notch local quality? MR. PECKFORD: Hr.

Speaker, I cannot give a real definitive answer to the auestion. I will have to get the information from the Housing Corporation. Suffice it to say right now, Sir, that we have in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to comply with the regulations as outlined in the National Housing Act, because most of our finances are federal-provincial, and therefore we have to concur with tl1e regulatJ.ons set down in the National Housing Act. So that is the only thing that will govern any restrictive buying on our part for Newfoundland lumber.

But to specifically answer your question as to the degree of quality required, you know, real specific, I can have that for you tomorrow if that is fine with the honourable member. MR. THOMS: A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. Is this circular brought about by, say ,the national regulations or are they brought abou hy the stipulation that all local tendering should use local lumber? You kno·w, this two - MR.

PECKFORD: This circular that they have sent out is in direct response to a government decision, a provincial government decision to try to use local Newfoundland lumber wherever possible on any project undertaken hy a department or an agency of the department. NR. THOMS: Mt. Speaker, oh the Minister of Tourism is gone. I am sorry. Mr .. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications.

We all realize that the minister has many problems, but many truck drivers are finding it very difficult to make their business pay because of the half load limit. Can the minister say when the half load limit 5056

April 24, 1975 Tape 1716 (Afternoon) PK - 3 will be lifted? I kno~1 it depends on the weather. MR . ROUSSEAU: Yes, l cannot give definite dates rir,ht now, >l'C, Speaker. They are being lifted in certain areas, and we recognize this as a problem for the truckers , you know. nut again we hav e to look at the total roads in the Province. We life them as far as possible. And l can assure the honourable member 1re are aware of loss o[ money and loss of earning because of this. But right now - I would say into ne,:t week possibly we will start lifting in certain areas that have not been lifted yet .

I have had a few calls on chat as well. And as soon as possible , as soon as we kno"' there will be no damage done to the roadbed we will lift them, and that should be,I would think.within the next couple of weeks,! would say by tl1e end of the month and the first week of May any way, but possibly before that depending on the weather, If the sun contin ues to shine, the r oads are dry \.IC will do it a lot quicker, if not, well I would say within two weeks will be a rough estimate . 5057

April 24, 197 5 Tape no. 1717 Page 1 - m MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bonavista North, MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hon. Premi Now that the federal government has announced a $50 million programme to help the fisheries of Eastern Canada, does the Premier anticipate also announcing some similar programme as far as the Government of Newfoundland is concerned? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear'. MR , SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker, as we had a major imput in creating that situation, we feel that - well, first of all,le face it,the fishery is being recognized.

A great deal of det has to emerge from this programme yet, and it certainly woul d be the appropriate time or place now to discuss in detail wh, is not yet spelled out in detail. As the Hon. Don Jamieson j yesterday from Ottawa, it is very important to spell out the exact detail before, you know, the member for Bonavista Nor or anyone else, Mr. Speaker, goes off half-cocked. HR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr, Speaker. Could the Premie inform this honourable House as to how much money of this $5 million comes from the Provincial Treasury? If he has an in in it? Or what does he consider an imput? MR.

MOORES: Well, we have not compiled our income tax nor ; corporation tax this year.of what we pay the federal goverru Mr. Speaker, but there is a percentage there, But certainl when we are talking about imput, we are talking about the c working together and the various pressures being put on Ott and the co-operation we have with Ottawa as the honourable well knows. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear! Hear'. MR. SPEAKf.R: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Ministe 1 Finance and the President of Treasury Board, could the Hon 5058

April 24, 1975 Tape no, 1717 Page 2 - 1nw tell us what the chances are of reaching an agreement with the l,iquor store employees in the next few hours or ,are we going to have to do without a drop of stuff tomorrow? MR.. MOORES: That is a total irresponsible question, Mr. Speaker, and I did not even think the member for Bell Island drank, MR, NEARY: Sir, I like a drop of wine. But, Sir, a supplementary, Would the Hon, Premier indicate whether or not negotiations are continuing today to try to avert a strike tomorrow?

I mean that is not irresponsible, Is there any effort being made to stave off a strike by the.se employees? MR. MOORES: Every effort is being made by the Treasury Board officials with all the unions that are negotiating, Mr, Speaker, obviously, That sort of question is totally irresponsible, and totally out of place until negotiations have been finalized on,e way or the other. MR.

NEARY: M'.r, Speaker, I wonder if the ~nister of M;ines and Energy, Sir, would tell the House if the government intends to fight the most recent; application made by the Newfoundland Light alld Power Company to the :Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities for an increase in rates? Does the minister himself intend to make any representation? Will the government be fighting this application for an increase? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. mnister of Mines and Energy. HON, :&. BARRY (Minister of Mines and. Energy): Mr.

Speaker, when the initial application was made for the increase in electrical rates earlier th;l.s year, it was our understanding that the proJected needs of the Corporation could involve a further increase of some five per cent on the second rate hear,ing. Now the present application liefore the Board involves more than the fi'O'e per cent that was then :i,ndicated and for that reason we have requested, and we are obtaining S059

·; April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1717 Page 3 - mw copies of the evidence which the Company proposes to set before the Board, the facts, the financi·al statements and so on which the Company expects to present before the Board justifying this higher increase,and if it appears that such an increase is not warranted then it may be that we will have to make representation before the Public Utilities Board. But at the present time~until we obtain the evidence, I understand we should have that within a few days, we are not in a position to give an answer to that statement.

We do want, however, to see a justification for the increase greater than the five per cent which we understood was to be the amount necessary to allow for the inflation and escalation in cost over the last year or so, AN HON. MEMBER: Is it fifteen per cent? MR. BARRY: No, I do not think it is quite fifteen, It is something less than fifteen, but it is almost fifteen but a little less. It is close to fifteen per cent and that is a significant amount more than they indicated to us, as I say, prior to the last rate increase that they would be looking for this year, MR. SPEAKER: The Hon, Member for Bonavista North.

MR. THOMS: Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism. I wonder could the minister inform this House when he will be announcing the dates so that people can apply for caribourand moose licences? 5060

April 24, 1975 Tape 1718 MR, SPEAl'--ER: The honourable the Minister of Tourism. HON. T, HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, very shortly, a matter of possiblv two or three days. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Bell Island, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the honourable minister tell the House whether or not he has received the report of RH - 1 the Atlantic Transportation Commission on whether or not a distribution system should be established in Bishops Falls?

If so, would the minister tell the House what the government's position is on anv recommendations that might have been made by the Atlantic Transnortation Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: I am not aware of it but it may be down in the denartment. You know, there are so many studies that come in for transportation, federally and provincially, and the honourable member knows full well~ AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please'. MR~~OUSSEAU: - that it is a federal study, It is down in the department.

I quite frankly cannot keep track of all the studies that have been initiated by the federal government, by the CTC or anybody else snd as they come to my desk I try and get an opportunity to read them one at a time. This one now may be down in the transportation office. Nonnally what happens when a study comes in is that my officials in the transportation division take a look at it and try and svnopsize it for me because there is no way you can read it . We had one in the other dav . It is about four inches thick. There is no time for it.

So when he p,ets it on my desk, we will take a look at it and he will synopsize it. I do not recall it right now, no. -~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Can the minister then tell the House who authorized Mr. O'Brien, the Director of Transportation, the minister's director to go to Bishops Falls to attend a meeting to discuss 5061

ril 21,, 1975. Tape l 718 this matter ancJ. uhat instructions was !·1r. O'Brien given by t11e. rr:. hcfor e he, roes out to that meetin g ? ! ir.. r..Ol!SST-:AU : To Di sho p f a lls? : !P ;;r:f_p_v: Y c s . :'-".R, nrrn~:SEAl1 : ~:'11ich mecti .n~ c1rC?. you talLin g. ahout, hy the way: ! fl?. :-.rr:: ,\ r.·y; TlH~ r,1 cctin0 to c'!iscuss this mc.1tter of Ejshop Pa]ls :.i Cis trj h11 t jon centre? I t1iou g ht yoH s o. id BotwooC, e J:cusc=: me. I 2.1'1 s orrv. I am sorry. I ~dll take that uncle Tak e de.at? Tab-' the matter under whe.t? ''"P...

S?EAY.J'fl: ------- 0rders of ~l1 e Day. ~ rr.. 1 ~F.f.RY: Mo, Sir1 just one r1ore riues tion, Sir , for the f-':i.nis The tiT!'le is ur . i-m. 1 :r::Ar.Y : no, the time is not up yet, Sir. l•Je still ho.ve tl'. to f!O. Pou] d th e !·'inister of Jlealt! , care to tell the House what nov in connection ,dth the .Jackman Hospital in Labrador City? I tl1ey are burstin g c1t the seams. Thev n e ed to expand. lfould the t e ll u s if there are any 1,1mm in his department now to expand t !~e1-lor in .l J1 ospite.l a t Lahra~or r.ity? ' 1TL SPE!JT P.. : The honour!l.h le l 1inister of Hea lth. no:1. DR . ~~-.

ROHE ~ :1o, "'r . Speaker, I have no official reques Captain IHllial'l Jackr:Jan llosnital. I have no doubt the honourahl i s refcrrin ,P. to an intervie,• ' 1-,hich apparentl y appeared on one of t e levi s ion stations within the last d::iy or so and is the only in which I l1ave on that particular subject.

I would say, however, ar e J ool,ing i nto one of the important areas there, the provision specifically the improved X-ray equipment because of the fact th, located j_n tl1ese minin g are.as where there are certain problems. !:now nothin g about their plans for ex::,ansion other than what the station told us in one of th e ir news casts. 5062

April 24, l'l75 . Tape 1718 l'Jl - 3 MR . SPw\l~J::R: The honourable !'embe r for nonavis ta North . HR . P . THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like co direct a question co th<, lliniscer of Health . I wonder could the minister inform this llouse if he has yet given the financial aid t o the Gander Hospital i;o that they can employ personnel so they can open up the extra forty bed~ at that hospital? MR . SPEAKCR: The honoura ble Minis cer of Jlcal th . DR. ROWE : Jlr . Speaker, the ans),•er to chat question is that all hospi tal budgets are presently bein g reviewed.

In the case of the Cander Hospital the extra roq uest is also heinc reviewed by thC! financial au t horiti es at the pres~t time and that is where the situation is. onmms OF Tiffi DAY: On motion of the honourable llinis te-r of Finance, a bil.1, ".4.n Act Further 'l'o .f\mend The Depar tment Of Fina nce Act ," read n first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow . ?fil. SPOO:ER: Order (2) which is Committe e of Ways and Means , the Address in Reply co the budget deho.te . The honourable Member for Bell Island. JUL MEARY: Hr .

Speaker, the responsibility for leading off t h e traditional Budge t Speech on this side of tlie House falls on my shoulders today, Sir, because the Leader of the Opposition who uoul.cl normally lead off in the Budget debate is visiting his district and visitin ll Lahrodor . 5063 ,-

April 21,, 1975 Tape No. 1719 NM - 1 'ffi. NEARY: It is a very heavy responsibility, Sir, that I have today to lead into this Budget Debate. I will try the best I can to make a half decent job of it. l know, Sir, that we are sort of coming rlmrn the home stretch now as far as the sittings of the Rouse are concerned. I understand that the C::overnment House Leader, who is off to Japan, left word before he left to try and have the House closed,say,by the latter part of next week. It has been reported in th e papers. Well, Sir, that may or may not be possible.

The Premi e r says ,,,ell, we could not care less type of attitude. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: Inaud i b le. ~ITT. NEARY: Well I was there, Mr. Speaker, when the discussion took rlace and I know precisely what the Government House Leader said and I can say, Sir, that the objective now is to try and get the House closed the latter part of next week or the middle of next week.

Well that is fair enough, Sir, because there is not much business left anyway to debate in the House. l·!e still have the Budget Debate and an amendment to the Throne Speech and we have a few odds and ends, bits and pieces of legislati to consider but I would say by this time next week there will hardly be a pig l ef t in the honourable House, Sir. She will be on her last legs and drawinp her last l"asn. And you know, Hr. Speaker, that may be a good thing because, Sir, I am amazed over the last couple of weeks at the lack c Jnterest across this Province in the sittings of the Rouse of Assembly.

You know last night, Sir, on CBC news, on the early evening news, at1 now they are trying to, they are tryin!( to be provincial in their newscasts I <lo not think there was one reference to the House of Assembly. You would swear, Sir, that the House did not exist, not a word, not a sound in the early eveninr, newscasts 1 and no fault of the gentleman in the press p:allery who are reporting the news. I am sure that he had done his homework well. That he had - "IR. EVANS: Poor Opposition. MR. NEARY: That he had produced, pumped out the words tl1at were demanded 5064

April 24, 1975 Tape No. 1719 NH - 2 by his news editor, but Sir, there was not a word about the !louse of Assembly and very little on the other stations that J could ser.. No fault, Hr . Speaker , of the newsmen in tho press f!,8llery. l'or the last couple of weeks they have been just as bored and fed up, J would imagine, as the ordinary oerson across this Province because they realize Mr .

Speaker, that every little biL, every little scrap of iniormat1on that they are pumpine out of this House to meet their deadlines and satisfy their rewi; editors is of very little intere11t to the ordinary people of this Province . MR , EVANS: You need o new Leader)boy. MR. NEARY: Sir, there have been very few matters raise<l in this session c-f the H6use of Assembly that are of any benefit or any interest co the ordinary people of this Province. The key issues, Sir, the real issues facing our people somehow or other have been avoided by the rovernment and Hr .

Speaker, they can say what they like about the Opposi tfon and the Opposition members, Sir, but it is the government who calls the order of business of this honourable House . So, Mr. Speaker, we would expect and we were lookinr forwardiand the people ofthis Province were looking forward, Sir, to hearinr, a few announcements in the Budret Speech that would be of some real benefit to the people of this Province. We were expectinr, to hear announcements in the Uudr.ec Speech of proposals and measures that would help the ordinary people of this Province but all we roe, l1r.

Speaker, was a wine and roses bud~ct. lt was the kind of 11 budget, Sir , that will make the rich get rj cher in this poor old Province of ou,s while the poor get poorer . And what I mean b)r tho t , Sir , is that the kind of a budr,et that was brought down by the administratinn. and they boasted about the fact that it was a $1 billion hudret when in actual fact it was not a $1 billion hudr.et. The? $1 h:lllion plateau will not be ,eached pr obably until this time next year, 5065

April 2~, 1Q75 Tape l.720 (afternoon) and they seem to he more concerned about the fact that they wanted let the people of Newfoundland know that this was a billion dollai hudget. Sir, it is not the amount of money that is in the budget t counts. It is the way that that money is being spent. That is wh 1 "1r. Speaker, and that is why I cal 1 it a wine and roses budget, Tl was nothing in there for the ordinary person of this Province, but .iere all kinds of goodies in there for the contractor, - AN HONOllRAJ\LE ME}ffiER: Pave the roads in one day. MR.

NEA'PY: Well, Sir, I will come to that if the minister will j give me a little time, For the contractor, for the businessman, f the wPlJ-to-do person, there were all kinds of goodies in there. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: For the St. John's millionaires. 1-lR. NEARY: We are told - and for the St. John's millionaires, bu of some of the members of administration. AN HONOllRAllLl' "'1:EMJ\ER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: Rut, Sir, the budget included a lot of little items a g oodies that will only be of short term duration to our people.

N granted there will be a little bit of paving done and there will r a few feet of water and sewerage put in here and there. This is 1 designed, Sir, to help the government to get back int ;;- power. Thi is all that is designed for, Sir. It is all short term. There w, nothir-g in the budget, Sir, for instance, in the way of creating iobs over the J.ong haul, job creation. There was no tax relie 'f in the budget. While the other Provi.nces of Canada, Sir, - one o: our sister provinces, I think it was Manitoba boasted about a bill · dollar budget at the same time that Newfoundland did.

They broug l in all klnds of measures that would help the ordinary people of t 1 Province to cope with the high cost of living. They brought in reductions in the sales tax. They brought in financial assistanc to young couples who are buying homes for the first time. They b in measures to help the old age.cl who are struggling with the cost livi.nr,. They stacked on top of the old age pensions and the old supplements that are coming from Ottawa, they stacked on top of t benefits provind .al allowances. 5066

April 24, 1o75 Tane 1720 (afternoon) rn-2 Then, , ir Ontario back in the early par o.f A'pr'il brought down its budget, and they provided for all sons of benefits for the ordina r y people of that Province . They ~ut the salefi taY. . They e>: enneri free drugs in certain categories to the handicapped, t o che nld aged, and hey gave first time home buyers e grant of SJ ,50fl nn op of he $5()0 grant frnm the Government of C:anada smd the other ffo;mcial 11ssisc11.nce foi: housing from the r.ovemrnen t of Cl'tnada .

Then Quehec, Sir , I thin .l< :It was ahou11 a 'Week or so ago, I 1,elieve 1-t was a week today or a week yesterda brought do•m a iJ.lion dollar budget. They :in urn , , ir, provided qui e a few henefi s ro he ordinary people of tha Province . They reduced ncome ta>:,fnr instance, and they provided all forms of other kinds of assis an ce en the poor reopl~ in the Province of Ouehec . But, here in Newfounrllancl, !;:Ir, poor old ewfoundland, there were no conc e ssions for the ordinary J•eopLe of r.h:ls Province. I nstead, Mr.

Speaker, wha we have seen is a budget ha wHl make the govenunen one of the most expensive creatures in the whole of Canada 5067

April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1721 Page 1 - mw that can only be fed by placing an even heavier burden on the taxpayers of this Province.

And I would submit, Mr, Speaker, that as soon as the election is over, if the administration can weasel their way back into power, Sir, that all these yellow bulldozers that we will see roaming around Newfoundland in the next few weeks and few months)and all these ditches that will be opened up to lay sewer lines, the bulldozers will be withdrawn, the ditches will be filled in)and if I am any judge, Sir, of the track record of this administration, if they happen to be smart enough to weasel their way back into power, that what will happen, Mr. ,Speaker, is this, that there will be a mini-budget.

As soon as the election is out of the way, Sir, if they can get back in, as sure as Your Honour is sitting in that Chair, there will be a mini-bud get. Mr. Speaker, if the Liberals should be fortunate enough to get back in, Sir, if the Roberta Administration, if Mr. Roberts is asked to form the government, form the administrat of this Province, Sir, then the first thing that we will have to do is to get to work, get out our broom and work night and day, work hard and work vigorously to rescue this Province from financial disaster.

Does Your Honour remember or do the members of the House remember the couple of years leading up to the last ~rovincial election? Does Your Honour remember or do members remember the great issues of the 1971 and 1972 election? What were they? MR. EVANS: Anti-Joey. MR. NEARY: Well apart from an anti-Joey campaign, Sir, apart from the negative platform, one of the big issues was that the former administration was borrowing too much, that we were going to bankrupt the Province. MR. HICKMAN: Right on. 5068

April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1721 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: Right on, the Minister of Justice says 1 and the Minister of Justice was one of the honourable gentlemen who made some of these statements while he was on this side of the House that we were going to bankrupt Newfoundland, the Liberals, Joey was going to put her belly up,we were told by the Bon. Premier and the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Finance and all the other ministers as they went around the Province campaigning and trying to con the Newfoundland people into voting for them instead of for the Liberal party.

Well, Sir, what has happened in the three years? What has happened in the three years? Mr, Speaker, it is very seldom that the member for Placentia East, Sir, is in his seat, but I wonder would he be a little quiet so I can make my speech and go back to his own seat, Sir. If he wants, Sir, to have a chat he should go out in the common room. That is what the common room is for. But, Mr. Speaker, what has happened in three short years?

Well, Sir, we have seen record borrowing in this Province, We have seen our provincial debt, both direct and indirect, go from $1 billion 1 that is direct and indirect in 1971,up to $1,600,000,000. Our provincial dept has increased by more than fifty per cent over a three year period • . It is hard to believe, Mr. Speaker, that this is the same group of gentlemen that accused Mr. Smallwood and the Libed.ls of plunging Newfoundland into bankruptcy. And, Mr. Speaker, you would not mind the debt increasing by almost sixty per cent if there was anything that you could point your finger to to show for it.

But, Si,, we have borrowed at a record rate over the last three years and today we have record unemployment in Newfoundland. We have the highest cost of living of any province in Canada. At the end of January, Sir, according to Statistics Canada, at the end of March ,pardon me, we are told by Statistics Canada that 45,000 Newfoundlanders are unemployed. 5069

April 2l, , 197 5 Tape No. 1722 NM - '·IT. NE:ARY: In just three years, Mr. Speaker, in just three year ! the administration has practically doubled our borrowin~ and mar, th an doubled unemployment in this Province. Now, Sir, that is a prett y dismal record for the admin i st1 to bo as t ~,out and no wond er , Mr. Speaker, no wonder the Pr emier make up hi,; mind when to have a provincial. r,en era l election.

We all kinds of rumours over the last few months, the date was set 1'chruary, th e n it was moved ahead to March and the trawlermen 's came on, then it •,1as mov ed a head to April and then the Energy Cor came on and they made a blunder and a bir. boo boo at the Ener gy ( so they had to postpone the election again. And then the }!ember S t. John's East rock ed them back on the ir heel s when he left the Cabinet and s o is it any wonder, Mr.

Speaker, that the honourable the Premier is unahle to make up his mind at thi s time whether 01 he should r,o down to Government House, dissolve the House and ha, ~ ~eneral election? So the y are hopin g , they are hopin g , Mr. Speaker, that the feu little goodies that they hint ed at in the Budget Speech will to swinr th e electorate of this Provinc e around to th e ir way oft arain in the n ext election, when ev e r it is call e d. ~1r.

Speaker, som ehow o r other, and I coul d be completely w h ut somehow or other, Sir, I am convinced in my mind that th e peo this Provinc e are not p.oing to fall for this kind of glib talk an this 1:in<l of a con job ir. the next provincial election. }ffi. EVANS: Inaudible. 'ffi. NF./IRY: The peopl e , Sir, are aware of the fact that what few g we.re provided for in the Budget will be taken away again after th n ex t provlncial elect io n.

They will remember, Mr, Spe aker, as su yo u and I ar e me mber s of thi s honourable llouse,that followin g the Provincial r,eneral Election, the Mothers' Allowance was wiped out people will also remember, Sir, th a t the y cut the ~tudents' allow th c, people Pil] also remember, }1r. Speaker, that our gr eat march f in ind us trial development has been curtailed. Economic developme 5070

April 24, 1975 'tnpe No. 1722 NM - 2 is off the rails . And t hat chis honourable administration has not been able to continue . It has been too much for them. The)• have not been able to cope with it, to continue this preat march fon.•ard that was started in the Smallwood years and under the Smallwood Administration . And all the town councils, Sir , who hove been frustrated for the lest three years, who have been unable co rec water and sewera~e, deleration after dele~ation cominp into Confederation Ruildjn ~ and all the other buildini;s that are scattered n'l:e>und St.

John'i;, unahle to r,et any satisfaction from the Tory rovernmcnt about i:he;!r wat er and sewe r problems ,and all the n,ayors and town councillors who have become so frustrated that they were forced co resiAn becnuse they could not cope with the lack of co- operation an<l assistance th.it they were rettJnp from the administration , and all the people, Sir, ~ho had been eatin r dust in t his Province for the last t hree yeari; are not r,oin~ co h<> imp,ei;sed or influenced in any way at all by all these yellow bulldozers and t rucls a.nd water and sewer dir,g i np mttchines and backhoes chnt will he nround the Province this cominr summer .

Jf 1 were the admi nist r ation, Sir , T would not hank my hopes too much on foolinr the people ~•i th that sort of technioue, with that rimmick , Sir . Vou know, Nr. Speaker, docs Your l'nno ui:- r.ememher , ! know Your Honou r cannot answer me, docs Your 'lonour remember how they used co say that Jo<>.y, when there was tm election comin1' , they would sDy1 Oh there is an e lectio n coll'illl' up. Joey r.oc t!le povinJ? machine s out. l kuoP over on &ell Island they used to ci:.ll the pavinr machine , th e vo tinr machin e . 5071

April 24, lQ75 Tape 1723 (afternoon) Joey got all the paving machines out, the trucks out~ the hulldozers out, the p.;raders out and so forth. They used to always say that Joey was using the peoples' own money to huy their votes. Well, Mr. Spe aker, this honourable crowd must belj in that technique because, Sir, they are following precisely the technique that was used by Mr.

Smallwo o d and used by)I am afraic many other politicians before him and I think it will probably by a p.;ood many more politicians after that administration is gon It is a technique and a gimmick, Sir, that people are now wise t a little work, throwing out a few goodies, sending a few bulldoz around the country, lRying a bit of pavement. That technique is out and the people are not going to fall for it, They are not g to fall for it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would submit to Your Honour th. probably the chief reason for postponing the election until the Fall of the year or next Spring, the real reason, Sir, even thou, all these other reasons that I have given have changed the honou 1 the Premier's mind, pe.ople who he takes his advise from and peop ; do his polls for him - I might say, Sir, I have been told that tr poll that was done by the honourable the Premier and the Tory Pa1 recently did not shot, the honourable the Premier in too favorable with the electorate of this Province. AN HONOURAJ\LE MEMBER: It showed it c-ould win an election any day. MR.

NEARY: It showed, Sir, that the administration could not wi election any day. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Right. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Your poll showed we could win, MR. NEARY: No, Sir. You know, it is a funny thing. There were polls going on at the same time. AN llONOURAJ\LE ME~ffiER: Yours was better than ours, MR. NEARY: I do not know about that, Sir. I do not know ab out t i I know that the poll that was done by the honourable the Premier, , on behalf of the Tory Party, did not show the Premier and the min : 5072

April 24 , 1Cl7S Tape 1723 (afternoon) rn-2 and a good many mcmhers on the gove rnment side, did 11ot show thcm in a veey favo rable light. __ AN HONOURABLE ME~ffiER: Strong on llell lsland. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, very weak. Very weak on ncll Island. You do not have to do a poll to find tho t ou t . /11 l the minis ter has to do is I\O over there. So, that I-ind of frightened the Premier an(! the administration off . 1'he advice that he h getting, do not call an e]Pction now, you cannot l.'in it. Wait until the Fall . no some road work. Do some paving. no some water anti sewe-rage \Jc>T.k.

Carry out a fe,,· proje cts here and there. Thro•~ out a few gnodiei: and wa it until rhe Fall. llut, ~•r. Speaker, the Premier and the ailministratinn may think that all these things will help them crawl hack into power . JJut, the real reason, Sir, I would submit, the real -reason that the honourable Premier is holdjng off and not calling the election as eal'ly as r had thought that he ~·ould is that he is hoping for irnl'le strange reason, hoping, Sir, that there will be a strike of eas and nil offshore . This will be the jackpo t.

This will be the pot of p,old at the end of the rainbow that ,dl l be thrown out as t he gimmick to the Newfoundland peopl e to send this honourable crowcl bacl t for another four years. No-.,, Sjr , that is a hir iffy, a hit jffy . The ninjstl.'r of Mines and Energy has heen telling us about that now for the 1 ast two or th ree years . l t is like playing the slot machine. You pull the handle and it does not produce. Well, you can gn down 1 n Las Vegas and gamble.

Si r , l would suggest that :If the cahinec want to gamble "'ith the future of Newfoundland, they take the Churchill Falls jet and eo off to Las Veges and gamble. KR. I\ARllY: You were down to A-rgentia doing the same thing last - ~IR. NEARY: I go down there once in a while t o see my poor old mocher ­ in-law . AN HONOURABLE J.IBMJlEJI: Inaudible. t-lR. NEARY: ~y mother-in-law was sitti.np, right next to me ,in cnse the member did not know it. AN HONOllRABLE l-fE'IIIER: At the same machine.

April 24, 1975 Tape 1723 (afternoon) IB-3 MR. NEARY: At the next machine. You know, Sir, I have had a little bit of experience in playing slot machines, That is what the - every time I pull the handle and a nickle comes out, it reminds me, Sir, of the administration, gambling, gambling. They have not hit the jackpot and they are hoping this Fall or next Spring to hit the jackpot and then he able to go 5074

April 24, 1975. Tape 172/1 ml - 1 to the people and say, there it is, look, we took the ri~ht stand at the Energy Conference, We have now hit the j acl:pot. He have discovered oil and gas offshore and now we are going to get the big price, you see. He were right when we took this stand in Ottawa. He \-Jere really lool:ing a head and the minister says it is going to happen. T•Yell, fir, I can tel] the minister right now that he does not have to wait until the "all to make any announcement about a discovery of oil and gas offshore. It js there, Sir, off Labrador.

I can tell the people of tfowfoundland right now, Mr. Speaker, that they do not have to wait for a 1;eneral election to find out that there is gas and oil off Labrador, not on the rrancl Banks, off Labrador and off the East Coast. It is only a matter now of doing a little more drilling. developing some _new technology for r>,cttinf; the gas and oil to shore. Therein lies the pro bl=, l!r. Speaker. There is the problem, Sir.

Even thougl1 the honourable the Premier ,;ill take to a provincial wide television hookup and radio hookup and call press conferences and go around this Province ranting and raving about the gas and oil offshore, l1r. Speaker, it will be ten to fifteen to tFenty years before you can get \ that gas and oil in to shore where it will be of any benefit to t1:te peo;,le 1 of this Province. AN llONOURABLE MENllER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Nine to six. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Five to six. MR. NEARY: Five to six. No, Sir: No, Mr. Speaker!

The honourable minister may have inside information that I do not have but I have a fair amount of information concerning this matter and I am told, Sir, anywhere from ten to fifteen years. The minister may be more optimistic. The minister may say five to six but, Sir, :'!r. Speaker, the thing is this, that it really does not make any difference if it is a Tory Government, if it is a Liberal Government, Sir, the ~as and oil is still going to be discovered. The gas and oil is still going to benefit the people of Newfoundland some time in the next - • IR • IlAlUl'i : He have policies and you do not . MR N'EARY: Mr.

Speaker, the. policy that the administration has at the 5075 1·

April 211, 1~75. Tape 1721> RH - moment, Sir, is that they are unable to come to an agreement with Ottm , ahout the jurisdiction of this gas and oil. Sir, this is a rather urg, matter. Maybe that is why we need a new administration in this Provine so we can settle this matter, so that when the oil companies come to tl honourable the Premier in the Fall of the year prior to the election t1 will he able to say, 11r. Premier, we have had another summer's drillin j under our helt. The oil an<l gas is there in commercial quantities. N, you can mal,e your announce.men t.

You can have the election and you can hope that everybody in Newfoundland is going to become a millionaire and that they will put you back into power and everything is going to be wine and roses. Well, Sir, we have got a long way to go yet before that happens before we all become millionaires in this Province, Sir, Mr. Speaker, no matter what the administration does between now and the Fall of the vear , there is no way that I can see that they can win the election. k'J. HONOURABLE l!E'-!BER: There is no way they will lose. l1R.

NEP.RY: Paving, road worl:, water and sewerage, a recreation cent here> or there or a goody here and there, Sir, will not win back the credibility of this administration in the eyes of the people of this Province. It is going to take a strike offshore. ,~o,.,, Sir, whether or not they will be able to use this to their !lclvantage is the big question. Apparently the Premier thinks that he cc1n and he is basing his hopes ·on the fact that there is going to be a big strike and that he will bE able to make the announcement and that they .,,ill 1dn the election on this issue. 1!r.

Speaker, I hope, Sir, that this evenin g on CBC, in the evening news, that they will be able tc spare ten or fifteen seconds of the time they have allotted for their neHs ca s t to tell the peon le of this Province, tell the people of thil Province , Sir, that there is ,;as and oil off Labrador and off the Easl Coast of Newfoundland, 5076

April 24, 1975 Tape 1725 (Afternoon) PK - 1 It ie only a matter of time when this will be proven, when the drilling is finished this year, and that in all probability the Premier of this Province will get aboard of his gas guzzling Cadillac and drive down to Government Rouse and ask to have the Rouse dissolved to call a provincial general election as soon as this happens. Now there it is, Sir, in a nutshell. AN H9N, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I got a Cortina that was taken off the market after I bought it. MR. EllANS: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: So my friends all those within hearing distance of my voice, all those people who may get a few words of what I say today - AN HON, MEMB.ER: Who writes ·1t? MR. N.EARY: Billy Graham does not write it. I am not an evangelist, Sir. I like Garner Ted Armstrong. So I would say be­ ware ,not of the ides of March, beware o.f September or October. Beware, Sir, of the big announcements.

Beware when Fleagle Eyed Beagle himself will take to the airways and say we are having an election, and we are having it because everybody in Newfoundland now is going to become a millionaire, we just discovered gas and oil offshore. But Sir, the gas and oil is there. It was the former Liberal Administration that started the offshore drilling, that enticed the people to c.ome in here to d.o the drilling. I remember attending a big cocktail party over at the Arts and Culture Centre when Sedco I was brought here and put on the Grand Banks, Amco came with great fuss and fanfare.

And, Sir, I would submit that the gas and oil will be there long after the administration is gone. The point that I want to mak.e here is, Sir, there ia no l'1B.Y, Mr. Speaker, no way that the administration can c.onvince the people of this Province that they are going to pe the 0J;1e8 to develop that gas and oil with the track record that they have over the past three years, and t!;ie people know that they will have to return to Liberalism, return to the good old days of Liberalism. AN J:J.ON, MEMBER: Inaudible. 5077 L

Anril 24, 1975 Tape 1725 (Afternoon) PK MF. NE/I.RY: So that we can take advantage - AN HON. HE~IBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: - so that we can take advantage of any resourc , that ,ae may have off shore, whether it is in the liquid form or whet.1 it is in the mineral form. AN HON. '1!':HBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. HEMBER: Inaudible. '·IR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the first thing th:,t we will do when form the administration of this Province this Fall or early next Spring will be to go to Ottawa and get this matter of offshore jurisdiction straightened out.

It should have been done three yea ago, Sir. We had the door open in Ottawa. We were negotiating bu somehow or other this honourable crowd, Sir, have not been able to succeed. AN HON. MEMBER: They wanted to give it all away. MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, the first thing that the new administration will do when we are put back into power, apart fron gas and oil and all the other things that we will do to start our gre at march forward again, one of the first things that we v,ill de Sir, is put the Premier's airplane up for sale, and also sell off Churchill Falls jet. AN HON.

MEMBER: NIL NEARY: What are you going to use for hospital flights' , And, Mr. Speaker - we will manage the hospital flights the same way as we managed them before. AN HON. NEMBER: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: Do not ever let anybody be under the misconcep l Sir, tl1at this plane is down there to take care of hospital cases is a r ed herring if I ever heard one. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, we will visit the people and we will use cornmerical airlines, we will use Eastern Provincial Airways and A: Canada, and Air Labrador, Labrador Airways and NAP. HR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: MR.

BARRY: 5078 There are no chartered airlines to Rigolet. Yes, Sir, there is - Great Northern Peninsula.

Apr:ll 2~ , 197 5 Tape 1725 (Afte rnoon) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speak er , it would be ch eaper to use one of the helicopters that the governmen t has chartered. AN HON. MEMBER: I naudible . 5079

Tape No. 1726 NM - 1 MR. NEARY : llu t you do not need an airplane down here in the hangar with a bir, crew and a big: maintenance staff. That is why I called it a wine and ro ses budget, Sir, it is all made up of r:ooclies, bif posh offices, wall to wall carpeting. /IN lJO'.l. m:nmm: Inaudible . :m.. /;EARY: We will se]l off that airplane, Sir, and we will sell off the Churchill 1'aJls jet ancl there will be no more using that _iet. abusing that jet to take rrinisters - MP.

EVk'I,: Inaudible. '.·!!'. ~!EARY: - around Canada,and to fly all kinds of weird people in and out of Torbay,and to take people on vacation at the expense of the taxpayers of this Province. And, !-Ir. Speaker, the size of the staff in the Premier's Office will be slashed and put back, Sir, put back to more a realistic nml!bers, And there will be great re.forms, "r. Speaker, in our election laws whereby, Sir, the public treasury tha · every man and every woman in Newfoundland of voting age who is eligible to run wjll be able to run for election in this Province whether he can afford it or not.

It will not be a rich man's game any longer once we r.et back in power. One of the things that will be done, Sir, there will be election reform. AN RON. ME}lllER: Like what? }JR. NP..A Y: Like -paying for candidates ele·ctions out of the public treasury. ;m , MORrl\N: You are stealing Joey's platform! that now. Come on now,"do not do 'tR. NEARY: Sir, I do not care whose platform I am stealing. And Mr.

SJ all these outmoded boards that we have around that are now cluttering up the various offices in the various buildings that are rented by the government, and owned by the government and all these outmoded boards and commissions will either be reorganized or they will be dumped, And will he a great revolution, a great revolution, Mr, Speaker, in our admi of justice in this Province that is in a ridiculous mess at the present time.And. Mr, Speaker, above all, every door in Confederation Building an 5080

April 24, 1975 Tape 1-:o. 1726 NM - 2 every other office, Sir, thBL is occupied by a rnvernment department, will be oper,ed up onc1o a~aia co the taY.)'ayers of this Province . HR . EVANS: What about the bank? ffi . NEAP.~·: However, Mr. Speak er , visitors and lobbyi!! ts with bi~ spending notions chat are sweepinr the Tory Administration off Lheir feet, and those looking £or handouts, Sir , and who think that ministers of the Tory Administration are modern day Sanca Clauses, chat kind of visitor will not be welcome . Mr.

Speaker, instead of creating huj?e burnaucracies that the administration has done over the lase three years under their rescructurinp programme,and instead of lashinr. out aillions of dollars and e~tra vapance and wasc.e and buildinr. up a gi(!antic administrative monster in che un:!.imited hirinr in the Civil Service. and on Cro<m Corpon:itions and on other hoards, a new governmen t, Sir, will trim the btr. spendin1t and the waste of the cast and we wjll use the savinr.s, Mr .

Speaker , we will use the savinr.s to provide benefits, co provjde tax relief, to provide housing r,rancs, to provide drur,s to the old a~ed and the handicapped and co remove altopether, Sir, any sales te.xes on food and other essential items in this l'rovince . Savin gs , Nr . Speaker, savi ngs from the extravaRance and the waste and the sale of the Churchill Falls jet and the Premier's airplane and all the other luxuries that we can ill afford in this Province, some of that savings will be used - AN HON. MEJIDER: lnaudible . MR . NEARY: - will be used co take off some of the t ax off r,asol ine 5081 -

April 24, 1975. Tape 1727 and to cut the tax off foocl and other essential items that are needed hy th e ordinary people. AN HONOURABLE MEllllER: - taxes on food. '!P.. ~1EARY: I v'ill tell the member where we will get the money If I have my 1-1ay some of it will come in countervailing savings re.st of it will come from the big corporations.

If I had my wa: corporate tax es will pay for som<= of these things that I have m that the ordinary people of this Province can ill afford at the Nowrr.ining taxes, despite the fact the,t the, was it the J-lollange what was the name ,--,f ti1at maga;,:ine? 1'~: liONOURABLE Jlf.''B!':P.: l'iorthern 1'-!iner. :IT';. . f~FARY: ~lorthern •~iner. Despite the fact, Sir, that they up the re d liiht, sent up tile signal and mining companies aero! arc against any reforms in mining taxes in this Province. I we hesi ta te one second to implement ne,·' mining taxes.

I would do as they dirl out in the Province of Sasl,atchewan where we have 1 Government and they did with the potash people. They bought i t company. They were complaining and griping end the Governmenl Sas l,atche1m n bought into that company so the y could reap the bi to pass on to the ordinary people of that Province. There a re all kinds of ways and means, Mr. Speav.er. Ga1 1"111 he one way that we can get that money but it is going to · minister said, five or six years. I would say ten years, it is away. Immaterial, 1-1r. Speal:er, and I hate to be repeating mys of Hhat government is in power.

Get ting your gas and oil on anywhere from sD< to ten years away. Ml:. SPE/\KEP.: The honourable member has three minutes. '~- HE/\BY: l!r. Speal,er, we have, we have to find new money ' for ou r young people and we have to find additional money for School boards today, I heard on radio and television, are so f that they are almost ready to throw in the towel. They cannot it. \,e need extra money for education and we need extra mane:, 5082

April 24, 197S. Tape 17?7 Rll - 2 and uelfare. So, Hr . Speaker, what we have to do is tor.et llewfoundland hack on the rnils . We have to Bet mmy from the r.rand iosc iclen!. thnl th11 present administrado n have in their wine and roses hudr.,ct . r.overnmcnt must not be lhe c-xpensivc crenc.ure that it is today !eedinr, off the tax­ payers and gettinr, more expensive all the time .

We must, Sir, cre11te employment for our people nnd we mus t start that great m,1rch fonmrd in Neufoundland thal mis sta r e.eel undei:: the previous Liberal lldl'linistration that somcho11 or other, Sii::, r,ot stalled in lCJn on Januaey 18. ~:n.. MAR$HALJ., t'r. Soeaker, the honoui::ahle member has dis11ppenred. I assume he has tal:en his seat . His time has expi-:-ed . Eis time has e>:pired . I think most people here have almost expired lislening co hir.: because, Mr. Speaker, you know, he started off his speech complainin~ about the fact that the news media were not covering the proceedings of this !louse .

If we have evei:: been treated toil good, logical reason why foi:: the past forty-five minutes, we have, you know, 1-1c have it . Because this was a speech on the budget, supposed to be an Address in Reply to the Buclpct Speech, supposed to be dealing 11:i.t.h the hudp.e.t and we got off , altho ugh t hei::e is a 1-d.de -ranging debate allowed in the Budr,et Speech itself, we got off into all peripheral a r eas not in the most r emotest wa~· connected in any way with the bud~e t speech, I would say for about ni.nety per cent of the honourabl e member' s time. ~!i::.

Speaker, this relat es, this is the Committee of 11:iys and '-!enns which is traditionally, of cours e , the lludgct Speech and 1 ~10uld lil:e to address myself to the items in the budget. The first. thin!_'., this budget 5083

April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1728 Page 1 - mw has been billed at the $1 billion budget which is a matter of,certainly,note by a government,that a government in this Province can bring in a $1 billion budget of expenditure. But I would prefer, I think we should concentrate mainly and concern ourselves mainly with two items, the expenditures and, of course, the revenue that make up this particular budget that enable us to spend this gigantic amount of $1 billion. Now with respect to expenditures 1that is dealt with, Mr.

Speaker, in the Committee of Supply in which seventy-fiv1 hours was allotted and which we sa~ today or yesterday or during ti session the most abysmal inept performance by an Opposition that I suggest you could have anywhere, Because the Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker, is here for the purpose of us examining every expenditure that is made by this government. It is a matter of concern not just to the members of the Opposition but to every member in the House and certainly the general public with respect to just about every item of eh-penditure that was made. After all we are spending $1 billion this year.

But, of course, it is for the Opposition really to take the lead in this area and to determine and to plan its time to determine how and how thoroughly these expenditures are to be examined. And what do we see? We see for the secnnd year in a row major departments not even considered. We see the Department of Tourism for two years in a row, the Department of Public Works for two years in a row, a very important department that I, myself, would like to have seen considered, Provincial Affairs. Last year, not this year, but last year the gigantic Department of Education was not even considered. Why?

Because of, I contend, the complete ineptitude of an Opposition,and that is all they can be styled as 1 an Oppositic certainly not as an alternative government, because if the party forming the official Opposition cannot plan its time in any better how can they ever aspire to forming a government? 508-(

April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1728 Page 2 - mw Now they may turn around and say that a seventy-five hour limitation has been placed on debate,and true it was last year. But l want to point out that that seventy-five hours :is quite ample time. In the past thirteen years on only one occasion ,and chat was an exceptional occasion> was there more than seventy-five hours used. According to my calculations in 1963 they disposed of, even though they had unlimited time, the Opposition thoroughly discussed the estilllates in forty-eight hours.

The record will show in 1964 that it took fifty-four hours to do all depar .tments; in 1965, fifty-five hours; in 1966, siY.tv hours; in 1967, only thirty-six hours; in 1968, fifty-four; in 1969, sixty-three.

In 1970 there was a little bit more than seventy-five but then, as we know, we had a situation with the then Premier, 1."1th defections from his cabinet, and there were clashes in between, but seventy-five hours : 1 would submit} was substantial even then to discuss the estimates and the rest of the time was spent in peripheral considerations . ln 1971, the time of the election, unlimited time, less than seventy-five hours. When we crone in 1972 there were less than seventy-five hours to consider all depart:111ents, and again in 1973.

In those two years we had to sit all night in order to bring the estimates to a close,and we all remember that. So we sat together in this House, i.n a joint committee, to examine the rules to determine what could be done. And we looked over all of these areas and various papers were presented . Now the Opposition, when this crune in, were not for the restriction of the time because they did not f eel, es an Opposition, they could. As such they were being inconsistent with the pos1tion that they took in the committee itsel!. But there is no doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that seventy-five hours is quite adequate and quite ample. It has been in twelve out of thirteen years, I suggest thirteen out of thirteen years previouely,for the fullest type of examination of the expenditures of this government. 5085 --

April 24, 1975 Tape no, 1728 Page 3 - mw Now whPn we bring it down to a reasonable time,because of the way the Opposition was conducting itself, to seventy-five hours, we brought it in line with other provinces. It is not a dictatorship, It was not the first time it was done, It is done in Alberta, In Alberta their provision is that they have th e budget debate for five days and then another six days !ls alloted for supply, They do it 5085

Tape 112n (afternoon) ln- 1 in Ontario.They have limitation on supply, a much huger bud~et every year than <>urs. The federal government has limitation on its su1>ply debate. Just about every other Pnwince includin g Nc1.1foundland. So, what we did, we have brought do>m the time for seventy-five hour s and the inept! tude of this Oppositfon has been shown cm wo separate years. They have deprived the people of this House, the people of this Province of a most necessary and an ur~cnt need to discuss, examine and question the items of expenditure as presented hy the ~overnment.

In that I think that they deserve the condemnadnn that they are gettine around the Province, and in that l think rhe people of the Province can well reflect on the fact that they are an Oppnsitinn and being an Opposition and conductinp, themselves that way, they have no right even to aspire to the mantle of government 1f they cannnt conduct themselves in a different manner. Now, as a result of this, we hrought in th.ese rules, the government 1 that is1 brought i.n these rules last year and they were reasonable changes. We did other changes besides this on the dcmocratjzation of this House,do not forget, Mr.

Speaker. We brought in a question period where there was none before. We were not allo\o/erl to ask oral questions in this !louse before, or cercainl:y from Confederation up until 1971. There was no provision for it in the Order Paper. lf you got up and you tried to ask an on!l question, you were shouterl down. You were told that you were not allowed to ask unless it was urr,ent, and nothing happened to be urgent in those days. lt all had co RO on the Order Paper. \Je provlded A question period which really to a larRe eY.tent can he supplementary , if properly used,to the est:lmates itself.

We made ocher beneficial changes. nut, as a .esult of what the Opposition has done, perhaps the r.overnment ought to take a look now again at the Com1oittee of Supply. not that it should he necessary hut because of the ineptness oC the Opposition, and it looks like they are going to he an OpposJ. tion for years co come. So, we have got to order their time if they cannot do it. Perhaps we should make some provision - I do not know - Jn the 5087

April 2~, 1975 Tape 1729 (afternoon) rules to the effect that a certain amount of ti.me must as a resu rules or constitution of this l1ouse, be spent upon each departme government because I think it is disgraceful, }Ir. Speaker, and i a disgrace and this is 1 as I say, a condemnation of the Oppos1tio departments have not been discussed fo the ample period of time So, perhaps we can get some system like that. But ce perhaps if this is not acceptable, perhaps another suggestion tl1 put forth for consideration might be considered.

The estimates, what time is spent on examining them, they are not meant to be h for long-Pinded speeches by Opposition or anybody else for that for the government.

They are meant to be there for the purpose examination of each i tern of the estimates, for the asking of qu6 as to why an expenditure is being made, and for the answers beir by the government as to why the expenditure has been made. ~o, I do not know whether we should consider - maybe J cure it to U .mit the time that each speaker may speak in the Cor to give wide.r powers to the Chairman of Committees so that he c : instead of statements being made, questions and answers.

If an is not satisfactory, perhaps we can have a limitation of a five period of time such as we have on the Late Show that is suppose , come up later this afternoon where a member of the Opposition b , dissatisfied with the answer received from the government can g, and make a five minute speech as to why he is dissatisfied and five minutes can go to the government minister to show why it i all right. nut, certainly something needs to be done. I ought not to have to be done, Mr. Speaker, because not necessary for it to be done in any other Province.

It is n for it to be done in the Parliament of Canada 1which has a huge gigantic budget. But, it is quite apparent that the Opposition House is incapable of discharging its duties in a 'proper manneT it is incapable of ordering its affairs. So, we have got to se the rules,it looks 1 in order to do it. So, I say it is a matter of some, to me, some concerr 5088

Apdl24, 1975 Tape 1729 (afternoon) sraie of thP. game after seventy-five hours that the expend1 ture nnrt of this budget has not been examined in rhe way that it ou~ht to be examined and the way that is in the interests of thii; Province th111: 1 t be exami ,ned, I think we 11u goinf, to havr t o look - no t>Jame on the ROvernment 1 but castigations and grent hlame on an foept ;ind incompetent Opposition that we get t o the !ltage which we are now after sevency­ five hours wirh expenrlitures not being looked into becnuse IR-3 5089 !"" ~­ I

April 24, 1975 Tape No. 17 30 NM MR. MARSHALL: the budr:!et debate should be confined because · have forty-five minutes to examinations with respect to . gene observations of overall expenditure of the revenue and of th So I will not dwell anymore about lost opportunities on exam expP.nditures but I will po into the . aspects on the budget de like to make certain observatjons with respect to the revenu in my initial remarks. The source of the funds that is going to provide this bud~et, Mr.

Speaker, has to be a matter of some concern to a And I would note first of all that there is a large amount this year, the sum, of $201 million)from the Government of Ce Now this has shown a substantial increase of some $2( $25 million or $26 million from the previous year. AN HON. MEMBER: $226 million . MR. MARSHALL: Yes, $226 million now and it was $201 milli< so it shows a substantial increase of $25 million or $26 mi: the honourable member.:.

Erom the federal government this yea1 if you go over, if one goes over the balance sheets and the of previous budgets of previous years, in the past two or ti you will find a dramatic increase in the amount of money th. provided by the federal government to this Province, I fee and I remember the days of 1971 when we were all concerned 1• people were genuinely concerned,as to whether this Province or not, because there was the impression around, and I thin taken, that the federal government, even though it was a Lf dealing with a Provincial Liberal Government, was at that t leery about advancing funds to the then government of this I think that there with the madcap ·schemes in i_ndustrial d the lack of planning and what have you, that these fears we And I think it speaks well for this present government that two or three years the amount of money that has come in fr p:overnment has come in, has increased dramatically and this to indicate a large measure of confidence by the central go plans that this government has with respect to the developn 5090

,t :h e April 24, 1975 Tape No. 1730 NH - 2 Province . Now I say this quite frankly, I do not believe as I heard, I think I did hear, I hope my ears were mis ta.~en, a member on th e governme nt side euloitizinJ? Mr. Jamieson particuJ arly and the• fedcrnl itovernment. I do not eulo~izc the federal i,overnment for it because 1 think we have pot to realize that the money that we get we are entitled to.

After all it is a little bit misunderstood from time cc, ri.me ­ and around this t ime of year when people are filinr taY. returns it need not be - that people ought to realize t!iac NewfoundlaJ1ders nay caxes too,and a lot of the money that we are r.ertin/' back js money that we deserve• And indeed the federal rovernment gets it back many times because as a result of Confederation one of the thinizs that the federal l!Overn ment roe, t!1c rest of Canada got,was a grenc free market in which to dump lts 1•,ootls from the bread baske t of Southern Ontario onto a larper place in Eastern Canada.

But I say, I say it is no need to look at it from the point of view of the at t:1.tude like a berp.ar on horseback thanking Ottawa for its great largesses, at the same time I thin!·. we can take confidence in the reoo rd that is shown, is the way that th e Central r,overnment has obviously con fidence in this present administration . The main part of the revenue,! chink, •Ir .

Speaker, that 1 thin1' we should concer,i ourselves with, is the amount that is teinl! provic.ie<l, has to be provided this year b)• way of borrowings. lt is the borrowinr.s of chis Province, not a matter of alarm to people, hut certainly they have to be a matter of great concern to every man, woman and child in chis Province . Now I heard with disbelicvinl\ ears what the Member for Bell Island said in his speech, that we are be>rrowin11 as much as the Liherals and he puts forth such, you know,he puts f orth such arruments as, , you know,we have borrowed double, we have doubled the borrowinr, and I am 5091

April 24, 1975. Tape 1731 afraid that statements like that that go unchallenged would be pri :-1r.

Speaker, and will gain credence, and I do not think that that i the type of stctement that should be allowed to be made and go un­ challenged, It is almost a continuation,really 1 of a nightmare to hear a member - and we are not supposed to talk about this - to he about a r.1el'.lber of the previous administration 1which borrowed so much,and when we came into power an examination of the public ace would show that the debt, hoth direct ana contingent of this ProvJ at the end of 1971-1972 was one billion thirty five million nine i and thirty thousand odd dollars, so over $1 billion.

It is almos1 disbelief that I hear a merrber like the Member for Bell Island get and say we have doubled the debt. We have not doubled the debt. debt of this Province is not $2 billion at this present time, Anc monies that have been borrowed, he asked where did it all go? We: we are not supposed to say it but we could not come in and wipe tl slate clean. l·)e could not come in and pass a bill and say that nt would any obligations of this government be recognized.

He were : with this M billion and even at a nominal eight per cent interes · you have got to look at and you know we have got eighty millions , dollars each year that we have had to borrow has been towards the ment and repayment of interest on the debt that we inherited. So this is where I say, you Imm~, with an aura of disbeli I do not think that a statement like that is responsible 1 but I do that it is necessary for us to examine. As I say we are borrowi · this year q6(') million, ne,,• borrowings, 160 millions of dollars i new borrowings.

Last year we borrowed $132 million of new borrow Take eighty millions of dollars of that alone off each year, that $160 millions and you got what to pay to retire to even pay the i on the previous debt. That is the problem we face. The fact that we do have to borrow 1 and we are faced with i has to be a matter of grave and deep concern for the people of th Province. The public accounts at the end of March 31, 1974 show 5092

April 24, 11175. '!'ape J 731 r.11 - 2 direct dC1bt of ~!ll\l million. The continr,ent del,c, this is our amount:'l that we have euarnntecd , are C\337 million ancl chnt amounts to ~1 . 2 hilljon. Then in the pest couple of years, as l say. we add to that ~132 million and ~160 million and we get ~l . 2 billion direct dcht, add to that t!ui contingent .

So, contingent and direct deht 11crc, you divide by 500,000 people, we are r,cttinP. in tl1c realm oi ~2,5()() -per pcraon - man, woman and child - and whether we like it or not, whether "'C like to talk about it or not, this debt is just as real as the debt on John JonJs and John Smith's house or his car or what have you hccause the ~ovcrnment is not some amorphous superp0"'er, super bclni: that is scpnrate and distinct from us, But every man, woman and child - _/\N l!ONOURABLE l!E~ffiER: Joey used to think that. }IP.. MARSHALL: That is what Joey used to think .

Yes, that is what he used to think and say and thal is why it mounted, mounted, mounted up because he used t o get, he used to con the people with the help of the honourable Member for Bell Island into thinl·.ing that the government was one debt 1 and the people were the other, and the. people did not l:now it . But the people owe this 111oncy and it is mounting. MR. NEARY: $1,600 ,000. MR. l!ARSHALL: And not double. the deht aG the honourable the member attempted to say. There was a twelve per cent increase one ye11r and a thirteen per cent increase the ne>:t year.

This is in this year, last year and this year, last year was twelve per cent and this year the.re is a thirteen per cent increase . Mainst that, of course, there ar e increased revenues , provincial revenues that hnve been raised . The fac e of the matter is, Mr . Speaker, that this year we are payinl:! out in our debt servi ce fund, consolidated services , some eighty-two millions of dollars and this 1s mounting yearly. It is going up at a pretty fast i:ate.

As I say, our revenues are f(oing up at a pretty fast rate too , but it is certainly something about which we shou l d be very, I thin1', extremely concerned about . They arc r,oin& to go up even farther as we go on because if you look at the list of bond redemptions in the next few years you can see ther e are quite a, nUJ11her of them because we arn 5093

1 April 2.4, 1975. Tape 1731 RE coming up to year twenty-five now which is the nonnal period of financing of a lot of these long tenn indebtness. We are coming up to a lot of bonds that bear three per cent, four per cent, five per cent interest rates, Within the next two or three years they are goin g to hnv e to be refinanced at the now current rates which are either e.i zht or nine per cent. So, all of 5094

April 24, 1975 Tape 1732 (afternoon) IB-1 these figures then show that there is need to be an awareness and a great deal of concern. In as far as I am concerned , the fiscal objective of this government is now and must continue to be either to increase revenue substantially or to curtail expenditure. It is just pure and simple as that. The people of this Provi.nce, I think, have to accept that particular situation, that hard fact of life,as it were. As I say, we are going to have to increase revenue substantially.

Hopefully most of the former, the increased revenue, but there is going to have to, I would suspect, to be a mixture of each because we cannot - AN HONOURAJlLE MEMBER: Inaudible .. MR . MARSHALL: - because, you know, we have to as I say, Mr. Speaker, we just - it is absolutely imperative that every man, woman and child acceµt this in this Province today. We cannot be driving around in Cadillacs if we can only afford Volkswagens. MR. THOMS: The millionaires cannot do that. MR. MARSHALL: Only the millionai r es , bu r. that is the whole point, Mr.

Speaker, the the honourable Member for Bonavista North does not see; that we may be living in this Province as mil-li .onaires and we cannot afford to be. AN !IONOURABJ,E MEMBER: I naudible. MR.

MARSHALL: We must be aware - see look, this is the psycho logy - I do not want to engage in a debate with the honourable Member for Bonavista North - but this is the psychology and he reflects the psychologv of this party. ( You may be but T am not.~ This is the way h:l.s relationshiµ between himself and the people and the public debt that they have been taught to implant upon the peoµle of this Provj_nce and that :Is one of the reasons why we are really, as far as I am concerned, in the situation we are in now.

So, we must be aware then and I think the awareness - J will say this again because I want to get this point in at)d re!llly hammer it home - but I think the awareness apart from a realization and the necessity, dire necessity of realizing this business of revenues incre.ase nr expenditures have to go down, the acceptance of it. We also have to be - we cannot expect people to be aware of the borrowings of th:! s Province unless they are really brought forceably .to their attention• 5095 :-1a:.

April 24,1975 Tape 1732 (afternoon) I would like to again mention the matter_ that I brought up before in the previous debate on the loan bill - I stand on the record IB on that - that I do not believe that it is good either for budgetary purposes - there is no point having a real budget if you cannot presun to control your budget properly nor can you make people aware of what is being borrowed nor can you get the fullest type of fiscal responsibility that is required unless all borrowings are approved by this House of Assembly and here publicly, and the people who are in charge of the administration of justice have to borne in - or admin of the government have to come in and explain why they are spending t money and explain it in full and complete details.

I do not myself accept and I do not feel that there ought to be anyborrowinge - cr,ther than what is approved by this legislature under the strict application of the Financial Administration Act. In this case this government restored to the legislature the power of borrowing. I would hope in the years to come to see no governmen1 coming in again and asking for more money to borrow than it has set forth in its budget. But enough Raid on that. That has already bee1 pointed out. But, as I say, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that one of these days somewhere along the line .re are going to have to see the daylight with respect to the financial affairs of this Province. I am very thankful myself. I think it is a good - it is very fortunate for the people of this Pi::ovince that the government I support is in powe heceuse they are obviously able to manage the affairs of this Provir in such a manner that - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. I suppose it is a point of order. Does Your Honour have to announce the topics for the Lat, Show before five o'clock on Thursdays, Sir?

I just want to draw it to Your Honour's attention. MR, MARSHALL: There is on~y one, I believe, Your Honour, anyway. MR, NEARY: Yes, but Your Honour has to announce it. So, I just w to draw it to Your Honour's - MR. MARSHALL: You do not like what I say, You want a couple of~ 5096

April 24, 1975 Tape 1732 (afternoon) IB-3 off. MR. NEARY: No, no, no, r.o, no, no. MR, MARSHALL: Does Your Honour wish me to yield, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. John's East, I am aware of the thing, makjng an announcement by five o'clock. There is one item, a question raised yesterday by the honourahle Member for Bell Island to the honourable ~1inister of Provincial Affairs an<'1 the Environment. I note that the honourable minister is not in his place, However, the honourable Member for Bell Island may use his five minutes at the appropriate time. The honourable Member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr, Speaker. Anyway, _, 5097

Auril 24, 1975 Tape 1733 (Afternoon) PK - 1 have covered,I think,that aspect of the matter that I talked about. I think that I have been speaking about, I think there has to be, again I repeat, an awareness. And the public debt has to be a matter of concern 1 although not a matter of alarm, and not a matter of alarm because there are a group of people who have demonstrated that they have the confidence of the federal government as evidenced by the increased money that is coming in, they have the confidence and justifiably so, of the financial community.

They have the confidence certainly of the people of this Province. I think we are fortunate that we have such a group of people in charge of the affairs of the Province, but at the same time we have to be very, very careful, and very, very aware of the amount the debt that is growing up because it cannot continue no matter what kind of an administrative you have, no matter how efficient it is, it cannot continue at the rate it is going now, Mr. Speaker, They have to see the daylight as far as I am concerned.

By the way,when we are talking about daylight, if I may just divert just a little bit, so that I can make one little point if you - with respect to daylight and with respect to the Board of Trade - AN HON. MEMllER: im.. MARSHALL: Inaudible. This is disconnected, but you are allowed to speak of anything you want on the budget speech. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

MARSHALL: Look the members of the Board of Trade,I understa have come up with a statement that we should put ourself in the samE time zone as the Mainland, the same time zone as Nova Scotia, and I think the rationale is because this is more convenient for commerce , because it is more convenient for CBC programming, or CTV programmi1 or what have you in all conveniences. And I would like the affecl of this, Mr·.

Speaker, is as my poor unattuned mind sees it. is that we are going to lose in effect an hour of daylight in this Province and I do not see for the sake of conformity, the conformists of thi world - look if the CBC are operating down there and businesses are operating down here let them operate on our terms. And I do not be I would like to go on record myself as being against this grandiose 5098

April 24, 1975 Tape 1733 (Afternoon) proposal fo r again to conform with t he people of Canada for t he pur pose of having our time at the same time so that we ·will lose l'K - 2 an hour daylight. I do not think it is good.

And I would certainly hope that the government would not go along with it , Because after all , I mean, if you want to use the same arg ument why do we not have the same time zone all throughout Canada, the same as in British Columbia - British Columbia have the s ame, and maybe we would have twe1.ve o 'clock in the day at ele ven or twelve o'clock. in the night and what hav e you or something like that . I do not really chi nk chat it was a sensible sugges t ion .

And it is certainly one tha t - the people of this Prov i nce get very few fine days comparat i vely spealdng, and I think we shoul d be allo~,ed to enjoy them as we have in the past with out interference . AN HON . IIDIBER; MR. MARSHALL: me . MR. MARSHAL 1, : again . MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: Uear! Hear ! I am gl ad to see that t he Opposition agrees wi th Now on the borrowing - back to the borrowing Back to the bond market. Back to the bond market.

Back to the money lenders, t-le are going to be - we have go t to remember that i t is even more critical now that, you know, our borrowin gs tJben you consid er what services have to be provided, you are going co have to borrow some any way. But you have also got the added obliga tions of this government, dramatic obligations that are going to be i ncurred as a r esul t of the development of t he Lower Churchill.

I might say that I am delighted that the government dec i ded and agreed, the y have always agreed that before any monies are borrowed on this project that there is going to be a bill brou ght i n for the p urpose of author izi ng the loan - 1 was myself - and th is sho'lils the, you kno'lil, reall y, honestly, this shows the psycho logy of the Opposi.tion when the Leader of the Opposition sa id when he heard . t he bill was going to go through or he was s.dvocs ·ting it , I do not know "1),ich, but it is i n the record s of t his Bouse,that he expected the legi sla tion to r,o through witho ut extensive deba te .

You know this shows the atti tude of the Liberal Party , the attitude of 5099 ............

April 24, 1975 Tape 1733 (Afternoon) PK- the Opposition towards these things, and their lack of appreciation of the importance of it. I certainly hope that this matter will be fully debated, becaus the obligations that are going to be incurred are going to be very, very heavy obligations, and certainly the matters that are to be raised often - the matters concerning it, the reasons, the feasibilit) ' and the wrole "7orks have to be very thoroughly debated before this House so the· people of Newfoundland can see where we are going, because 5100

April 24, 1975 Tape no . 1734 Page l - mw the cost has escalated and escalated dr11111atically frolll the Teshmont Feasibility Survey that was already tabled in this House, Andthe fullest type of information is very necessary to the people of this Province and the fullest debate before any substantial monies are spent, and I am glad that the government agrees and concurs with this position. I pointed out in this context in this debate though to show, Mr.

Speaker, that in addition to the ever mounting di-rect debt of this Province and the noY1Dal contingent debt, we are going to have placed on us also a huge debt for the development of the Lower Churchill, because the future of ourselves and indeed our children's children are going to be bound up in this. It must be debated to the fullest extent possible, and I would hope that the Leader of the Opposition will see it that way,and will treat it a little bit more seriously than be indicated that he was prepared to consider it when the matter was brought up before the Rouse.

Now the hopes for revenue, I think, in this Province are tied to a large degree to the provision of revenue from the offshore resources. And I would like to have just a few words with respect to this matter now, Obviously, and it needs hardly be said that every member of this Rouse wants every possible cent that can be gained for i the people of this Province and for this Province itself from our offshore resources, B.ut in order to come to grips with the present situation, the jurisdictional dispute between here and Ottaw.i has to be settled.

And great strides and great work has been done with respect to this certainly from the provincial govertllll_ent's point of view. A lot of work, a lot of research, a lot of knowledge has been put together and eventually we hope that some sat:lsfactory settlement will be arrived at to the lasting benefit of Newfoundlanders. We have to contemplate, Mr. Speaker, we have to contemplate the possibility, and it is becoming even more posaible now, I think, more probably now of no settlement being reached by agreement and the matter having to be settled by liti ·gation.

And I would like to uiake a few cOlllllents with respect to this in the 5101 -

April 24, 1975 Tape no, 1734 Page 2 - mw House. I made them before while I was a member of cabinet. But now not being in the cabinet I have a certain amount more latitude than I had at that time, and I intend to use it. MR, NEARY: What happened - MR, MARSHALL: MR, NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: not bother to MR, THOMS: boy. What happened to what? What happened to If the honourable member does not know I will explain it to him again. We always like to hear a good story. Go ahead, MR. MARSHALL: The point with respect to this, Mr.

Speaker, that I want to talk about is the fact, as I indicated before, that myself, I have grave reservations, serious reservations about this matter being referred to the Supreme Court of Canada. Now that statement may raise some quizttcal eyebrows certainly amongst the traditionalists around us and certainly amongst members of the Law Fraternity who tend to look at the institutions probably, well obviously much more, regard them in a much more serious light, although they are to be regarded in a serious light 1than the general populous.

They do not particularly like to look at the systems that adjudicate their disputes in any critical manner. But with respect to the Supreme Court of Canada deciding whether or not the federal government or the provincial government own these offshore rights, I feel myself, as my own opinion, that this Province ought not to agree or certainly ought to expend every possible effort I and indeed I do not think they should agree,to ever have this matter referred to the Supreme Court of Canada. People look at you and they say, well, what are you going to do? Thie is the Constitution of Canada, This is the way it is.

This is our system. But that is not the situation, Mr. Speaker. Changes are wrought, This is a matter of urgent concern to the people of this Province, of vital concern to the people of this Province, 5102 .

April 24, 1975 Tape No. 1735 NH - l and we have to look at every possible avenue co assure not only that the matter is adjud icated properly, as I am :,ure that it will he in a sense adjudicated properly by the Supreme Court of Canada,hut also that)if you lik.e 1tha t justice not only is done, choc it mjyht seem to be done. Because, Mr .

Speaker, l am not sayinr that, as l said before, all of the Judges of the Supreme Court of Canada are foderiilly appojnted jud~es and as such, I am not sayinr that they woulc! be hiasetl hut I would say their emotions, emotionally they would have to be tied to the central power, ic is only natural. They are federally appointed. They reside in Ottawa and their emotions would tend towards the central power . And there is nothin~ vrong of course with a judie havin~ emotions .

As a matter of r~ct il a jud~e did not have emotions and was not ruided from one derree co another by emotions as well as reasons he is not fit really to be a judpe . Every judre has co have certain emotions otherwise we should submit everychinr to computers (or decision.

So t~e would not - here is a dispute, a possible dispute between. as I said before, between the federal and the provincial povernment and we are having the federal government, one party apnoint the jud~es, or having the judr,es who decide it reside in the national capital, anri 1 mvsel r do not feel that this is a good situa tio n. think the facts show it . Because --it has already been decided in th<' llrit ish Columbia case what the Supreme Court of Canada's real attitude on i t is . Anyone who reads that case will. come to the obvious conclusion that the Supreme Co11rt of Canada has relied very heavily on a

section of the constitution rivinr the federal government the power to legislate in matters relative to pence, order and rood government and on the basis of peace, ordPr and r.ood jt.overnm en t this is one of the main -reasons for chat decision. I do not want to r,o into a lonr. description of what that i.nvolves except to soy simply my unders tandln r, of it is that it was r,uc in the constitution, the British Korth America Act in )867 by the then framers of Confederatfon "'i th an jdea of r.:lvi ng the residual poweri; to the federal f!overnment . But it was never jntended to he used as a catchall for the 5103 C

April 24, 1975 Tape NO, 1735 NM - Government of Canada to suck up every hit of jurisdiction that i required he tween Vancouver and St. John's, And I am afraid duril the war this particular power was U!'Sed and used rationally for the purpose of div~rting a lot of powers to the CentraJ. Governme and they have not heen since World War II unhatched.

But certai in this particular context,the Supreme Court of Canada, anyone w is readinp it -1 was talkin,:- , to someone the other day whose opin I ver y Pmch resnect in this and I had discussions with l1iw befo1 respect to icy eoncern ahout tl1e Supreme Court of Canada acjudic~ i t and his comMent was,aftcr readinr. the case himself, he had cc tbe r:onclusion that regardless what the reasons may be the Sup1 of Canada we re r:oing to come up with a decision for the federal This is the impression he got when he read it.

So, you J,now, I feel - there was, J:,y the way~•a case, a Ne1 case touchcn on in that partj cular Hri tish Columbia case and I i that the J.er;al advisers to the nrovincial government could wel:). . they probably bave, coulcl well assess that particular case and I of the Supreme Court to the pffect that it only related to with: miles of Conception Bay- this is the Wes tern Union case, I thin ! clE>cided some years ago - and I think the advisers to the provinc ,-iell look at that case and assess it from the viewpoint of,y t the ultimate result of a reference to the Supreme Court of Cana , :in favour of it in viev of the British Columbia ease and in vie, you know, what has transpired since.

Now I do not see myself - the Prime Hinis ter of this Prov way, or the Prime Minister of Canada, when he came to power rec the limitations of the Supreme Court of Canada and I think we o remember that, At the time when he was talking about his just and at the time when he was partj ally between being a Quebec Na as it were, and a federalist, he was talking about the necessity and we all remember this, a constitutional court in Canada, a constitutional court from the Supreme Court of Canada itself. So I mean if the Prime Minister of the Country 5104

dRht April 24, 1 q75 Tape 1736 (afternoon) Tll-1 saw th.ts need to have a separate constitut1 on court rather rhan the Surremie Court of G1mada, the c1uest:lon is perhaps we oui',ht to tah• a look ourselves and ~uestion the ~upreme Court of Canada now. nut, instead of creatin& a separate federal constitutional court ci1e federal government aprarently has accepted the Supreme Court c:,f Gonncla hecause indeed right now tliere is a plan - that is 1 the Supreme, C.ourt 1 all the Supreme Courr. is ~o:!.ng considex: 1 and this has heen r11lked Bhour, are constituctonal issues and nor issues relatin g to private ri~hts hPt\.lePn citizens.

Indeed the present chief 1ustice of t he Supre1ne C:ourt of Canan:,, a man hy the name of Mr , Bora las)dn, is a committed federalist . llis writi ·ngs prior - not that he :Is not an eminent man, a rcspc,cted mnn. an ohjcctive man and what have you- hut his ~-ritinr,s are all relative co the theory that the natural C?Volution of II Confederation such as Canada is to hring it :Into a foderaJ stare. l!e jg what is kno•:n as a federalist.

Indeed there? was a Jot of tall< 11c thn tjme when he was appointed chat one of the reasons why he was appointed was to assure a complexion on the Supreme Court of Canada, to the c<>urt itself and the memhers of the court><>f federalism in the [ederal gov~rnmcnc's desire to deal with its increasing rrohlems in Quehec. Now, T have a press clippinR - of course ir does not matter what an individual says, hut it is another person aside from myself wi.th thar point of view whn:e a membet of the Alberta har at the t1me of ChiC?f Justice Laskin's appointment - I have it here in my pocket.

I have not ~ot the filing system such as the ~emher for Dell Jsland has. lam afraid the clipping is rather moth-eared because l havP had it for a per iod of time - "r. Pield says that the appfllntmcnt of Mr . Dora Laskin 11s jusric e of the ~upreme Court of C:anadn ,.,as 11 politics I move probahly dcs:l &ned to strengthen the federal govemmc.n t in its confrontation with the provinces . I think the move was politically orientated, hC? said, in a telephone interview from J,tlmonton Wednesday. J think he was a local president at the t1.me,although I am not !Hire nf the. Alberta har . That j s fine.

Tc does not mean rhe man is any les~ intelligent or any less comvetent Jn various areas. But jr 5105

April 24, 1Q7S Tape 1736 (afternoon) II certainly shows there is a possibility as far as I am concerned of thE Supreme rourt of Canada not being the best forum for us. I do not think that we as a government should be satisfied with an adjudicatim by the. Supreme r.ourt of Canada. I know the people will look at me quizzically and say, well, this is a - what are we going to do - this is the constitution. This is where disputes of this nature are settlec. These are airy, fairy ideas and what have you.

When we are dealing with the future of this Province I see no problem whatsoever in insisting that this matter be submitted to adjudication by a body, a court or a board or what have you which is satisfactory to hoth parties. After all, when we joined Confederation - this is a part as far as I am concerned of the unfinished, unnegotiated terms of Confederation itself - when we entered into Confederation at that particular time the recourse was still to the Privy Council. I do not suggest that we go to the Privy Council because we are part of Canada now and the sensitivities of Quebec have to be complied with.

But, there must be - have to be recognized - but there must be some other means of doing i_ t. I mean, if the Prime Hinister of this country recognized at the time when he was appointed th at the Supreme Court of Canada was perhaps not the best forum in which to have constitutional disput settled, there is no re,son why this Province cannot take the same tack and ask that the matter be presented to an independent board if you want, independent board of international jurists. Maybe by way of suggestion,if they want judges on it, judges of various provinces who are located in other provinces.

Certainly there are other men. I do not feel myself~ really, that with the future at stake, when you review the budget of this Province, and when you see the large amoun1 of monies that have been spent, and the amount of borrowings that haVE, and will continue - I will not he one moment, !'Ir. Speaker - that ha, imd will continue in the future,and how much our future of this Prov l is ti.ed up in 1 ts increased revenue~and the revenue of this Province must come from the exploration of our natural resources off our sbel J I think that this government really ought to take a stand and say th i 5106

April 211, 1()75 Tar,e 1736 (afternoon) Tll-1 if it is going to ),e adjudicated - hor,efully there wi 11 be n settle!!K'nt - hut :!f it ti; going to hf> adjudicnred H 1s not gofoJ; to h<> hy the Supreme Court of r.anada and this ~overnmenr ln Newfoundland ~111 not recognize any such adjudicotion hy the Supreme C:ourt of C:Rnacla un l1>!11i it is only acl1udication . Tr miAht recoF,nhe one by what the Provlnce considers to hf> a completely inder,endcnt ho11rc. AN llONOllRAJIJ,I: ll'F.MBE!l: llear ! lleor ! 5107 --

April 24, 1975. Tape 1737 PJ1 - l MR. SPEAI:ER: The honourable Met:1ber for llonavista North . HP .• P. THOM'S: r\r. Speaker, I must say I have heard certainly much better speeches, especially budget speeches from the honourable members across the way than we have just heard. 'M.!' •• NEARY: ''P.. THOHS: The >,<ember for Durgeo could do a better job. I believe, I believe the ousting of the member from the Cabinet rmst have done something with his vocal cords, certainly with his vocabulary because he certainly is capable. of making a much better speech than he has just presented to this House.

I was quite intereste in the revelations which the member uttered when he sarcastically assas the members of the Opposition in stating that we were indeed a very poc Opnosition. Then, I was rather relieved when, I believe, he unknowing] admitted that we were indeed the best Opposition that this honourable House has ever had and therefore, of course, we are the number one cane to tab~ over the administration of this Province in the next provincia'. election. The member spoke about the previous Opposition of this honourab : Pause when it at one time too}-_ onl