LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 18 March, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Wolseley and the amendment thereto proposed by the Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Member for Minnedosa has 10 minutes remaining. MF!. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm not just quite sure where I left off before the supper hour, but I think I was encouraging the Minister of Highways to lean on his colleagues to provide some more funding for his department in order that he might get on with some of the much needed work that has to be undertaken. Also, Mr. Speaker, I'm getting some correspondence in connection with the Motor Vehicle Branch taxi service for the handicapped.

Apparently there's some problems there that I'm sure have been brought to his attention by now in licensing or changing the existing situation for the transportation of the handicapped; but that's something we can get into a little better when we get into the Estimates. Mr. Speak er, I mentioned earlier that highway construction was an excellent way to create jobs and create employment and not only would it do that, but it would provide some much needed work and repair work on the maintenance and further construction of the highways.

The report of the condition on municipal infrastructures in the City of Winnipeg is a good example. It just covers the city; it's a report by the heavy construction industry that indicates what the city should be expending over the next few years and that would also hold true for the provincial road structure. They recommend $36.8 million annually be spent and an expenditure of $68 million in the categories that they undertake would provide some 2,000 jobs in the heavy construction industry; and we all know that employment in that industry is extremely hard hit in this time of unemployment.

I don't want to spend too much time on that, Mr. Speaker. There's a great deal of it that we can go into probably a little better under the Minister's Estimates, but I do know there are some problems with the taxi service for the handicapped and it's something that maybe he could take under consideration and maybe do something a little sooner than waiting for his Estimates to come in. Mr.

Speaker, I spoke a little bit earlier about education and the shortage of funds there, as there's a shortage of funds everywhere; but it's been suggested that a great deal of the efforts of the Teachers' Society is now going into providing pension benefits at age 55 with no penalty in pension and that probably has maybe overshadowed some of the more important aspects of education, such as the quality of it and what is good for the children. 207 We all know that the Teachers' Society have a pretty strong lobby and are able to probably look after their own interests pretty well; but it would appear from some of the reports from my constituents that maybe more attention should be paid to some of the other aspects of education.

Mr. Speaker, I have a communication from the Rolling Hills School Division addressed to the Minister, and I'd like to put one or two of their notations on to the record. The board have a number of concerns. !'m quoting from the letter, Mr. Speaker. They go on to say, "A safety and health officer has advised our committee that this legislation was imposed on school divisions because of our poor safety record. The same officer advised the committee that there are absolutely no statistics available on school safety.

This board has established a division committee consisting of eight members, and has been informed that further committees must be appointed in five of our schools, as well as a representative from each of 16 schools. Each day that the division committee meets, we must divert more than $800 of education funds to pay the salaries of this new bureaucracy. This amount will rise dramatically when all appointees have been made and all committees meet on a regular basis. "Our board believes that the MAST loss prevention officer, who does periodic inspections on our schools, has been doing an excellent job.

Obvio usly, your department does not share in this belief. Our board finds it incomprehensible that legislation designed for factories and mines should be imposed on the Kindergarten to Grade 12 education system. Our board finds it rather inconsistent that a government unable to find funds to maintain education grants to most school divisions is prepared to force these same divisions to divert funds away from education, or alternatively to require property owners to fund a new and fuzzy bureaucracy.

"Our board, therefore, requested this division be excused from complying with the extension of the Workplace Safety and Health regulations, or that your department provide the necessary funding to cover the costs of complying. Yours truly, J. Proven, Secretary­ Treasurer." I'm sure that the Minister will be getting a letter similar to this from other divisions, because this is a regulation that's been imposed on them that's going to be very costly and the requirements of it are somewhat doubtful according to those that I have spoken to in the school division, Mr. Speaker.

My colleagues in the past few days have covered a great number of the concerns that I had, Mr. Speaker, and it would be repetitious for me to belabour them again. We know, on this side of the House, we're well aware of the problems in agriculture and I've outlined to the Minister today the problems in setting the areas that were to receive flood assistance. It was extremely difficult, I know, to draw up boundaries that would cover everyone with respect to the drought conditions that we had last summer and fall and a great number of

Monday, 18 March, 1985 those were taken into consideration, but to cut off a boundary, as I said earlier on, on a road allowance, take in two wards of a municipality and not extend it beyond, even for a quarter of a mile, or something like that, there's no way that one farmer on one side of the road should receive assistance and one on the other shouldn't.

I think that will be brought home to the Minister when he starts getting some of the information back on his program to provide some interest rate relief under his program to those farmers that are borrowing at 13 percent, by reducing their loan limits down to eight, because he will find that the neighbour may be have a farm credit mortgage with the Federal Agriculture Department and is unable to get that relief, and for the one farmer that he makes happy, he probably has three or four of them very, very upset. So, these programs, while they may provide some temporary help, are not much help in the long run, Mr.

Speaker. It's been my pleasure to take

part in the Throne Speech Debate, even though, as I say, there was little to be covered in it, as was evident when the Member for lnkster spoke. because I don't think he mentioned the Throne Speech at all. He went into the wild blue yonder on a peace march to save the world. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. C. SANTOS: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to make a few remarks in support of the Proposed Motion for an Answer to the Throne Speech by focusing on the Government's delicate balancing of its response to both the economic as well as the non-economic needs of human beings in our province. That document had magnificently accomplished a wonderful balancing of interest, both on the realm of the material things in life as well as the non-material things in life. From a philsophical level of discourse, it is our needs that shape our objectives and goals in life.

As human beings, we have basic needs for food, shelter, and all the things that we need in order that we may have our life complete, and yet there are also certain needs of human beings that cannot be classified as merely physical or economic. There are other special needs of human beings, other than the needs for food, shelter and other things of this world. So in effect there are two realms of activities of all people in society.

There is the physical, the material and the economic, and on the other side there is the non-material, non-economic - I call it the spiritual, the moral and ethical needs of human beings. Usually what are the goals of human beings in the realm of the physical, economic and the material? Well, all human beings would like to aspire for the accumulation of property. All of them would like to have some consumer and capital goods as well as services. All of them would like to have some profits, some gains, some money, in order to make their life materially self­ sufficient.

What then are the programs of this government that are contained in the Speech from the Throne responding 208 to those material needs for property, for goods and for profits? Some of these programs referred to in the Throne Speech are the Jobs Fund, the establishment of a Technology Centre, as well as the development of the Limestone Hydro Development Project. The goals of property can be understood by our conceptual understanding of what property means. How does property come about in our society?

Property is simply the by-product, the outcome, of the application of human effort, of human labour to the raw resources of this earth. When we apply our energy and our effort to certain aspects of our environment, we create a material thing of value and we call that property. Property therefore is the outcome of human labour in the physical matter of this earth. Of course, when you have already accumulated capital assets, capital assets will produce its own fruits regardless of whether there is human labour or not, as in the form of interest.

Let's say, if you've got bank accounts, lots of money in the bank, it will earn interest without you moving your little finger, and those are the people that are the holders of capital and we call them capitalists. It doesn't mean though that they are not working, because they had exercised industry and thrift; that's why they were able to accumulate that capital.

Sometimes they inherit it and John here is saying, the Member for Dauphin is saying they inherited the property, but that is a part of the institution of society through the laws recognizing the right to property and the transmission of property rights from generation to generation. The real danger is when a person, a human being, has spent all his lifetime, all his energy, all his talents, all his efforts in the accumulation of this material property, thereby sacrificing his own health and his own happiness and then becoming a slave to the property that is supposed to be under his control.

That is the real risk; that is the real danger. I'd like to make a quote from the father of Conservative philosop hy, Edmund Burke, himself. He said, "If we command our wealth, we are truly rich and free, but if our wealth commands us, then we are the slaves of our own property." There is a tendency for a human being to be controlled by his own wealth and possessions. His own wealth will dictate his own timetable, and he lost everything for himself, he becomes a slave to his own property; and that's the greatest mistake any human being can make.

We should always be the master of our fate, including our possesssions. All the time there will be a certain tendency for property to dictate our timetable in our life. In order to increase all these material things in life, therefore, this government is becoming pragmatic in the sense that it has to provide for the basic needs of men. The government has to provide jobs. Jobs are necessary to earn money. Money is needed to buy the things you need, to eat, to sleep and to rest. The Jobs Fund, therefore, is a direct response of the government to the materialistic needs of man.

The most rational thing any government can do is to provide job opportunities for all its citizens so that all its citizens may pursue their own career in their own way, the honourable way, to earn their living and make their livelihood in life, in an honest way, in an honourable way for their own family and for themselves.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 The profit motive therefore is a fact of life. There is nothing wrong with it. Profit is the very ignition that motivates human beings in our basically capitalistic economy. The trouble is when give up the real intangible wealth in life for the mere material possessions of the things that we like. There are certain things that money cannot buy. Those are the real treasures that any human being can possess for himself for a long time on. There are certain treasures that money cannot buy, like true friendship, personal health, clear conscience, good clean heart.

These are the treasures that a man can possess in order to find happiness in this world. The establishment of the Technology Centre is an ancilliary to the provision of jobs. It is a tool for planning in an orderly way our economic development through research and training of skilled workers. In the matter of the provision of jobs, every government should endeavour to persuade both Labour and Capital to work together in harmony, hand in hand, for the sake of material prosperity of society.

If Labour and Capital work together as partners in indust ry, then it is most likely that there will be easier opportunity for everyone to produce and generate more goods, both capital goods and consumable goods, to generate profits and gains, to generate income, so that everybody will profit in the community. On the other hand, if they are separated from each other, if Labour is divorced from Capital, then both of them are weakened, and both of them become stifled and both cannot co-operate for the achievement of material prosperity in our economy.

Placed in direct confrontation against one another , with Capital overreaching for levels of profits which are unconscionable - (Interjection) - and with Labour overreaching for wage increases that cannot be justified, both of them are merely sapping the strength of the superstructure in our economy, so that there will be more human misery, because there will be more unemployed, there will be less production of goods, and less generation of income.

Therefore, every government should try to achieve harmonious industrial relations between the partners of industry, and that is the function of government and the state. The Limestone Hydro-Electric Generation Project is a vision for a solid economic future. We have just achieved approval, without any condition whatsoever, from the National Energy Board of Canada for the project, the development of this energy project. That is an expression of confidence on the part of a federal regulatory board on the vision for the future of this province, our beloved Province of Manitoba. Confidence begets confidence.

I ask the member and I ask the members of the Opposition: Do you have confidence for the future of this province? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. C.

SANTOS: If a leader has a vision for the future and if the leader is confident that he can achieve the future by the achievement of certain grand objectives and projects in the economy, then that leader deserves the fullest confidence and support of all the people in this community, because it is merely an expression of the eternal principle, that to him who gives the most, 209 he shall receive the most because it is giving that we receive; it in loving that we are loved; it is in trusting that we are trusted; and it is in serving others that we ourselves are served. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Good sermon, keep going.

MR. C. SANTOS: The only danger in focusing too much on the material side of life is that we may become too engrossed in it, that we become a slave to the material things of the world. Because it is written, "Wherever your treasure lies, there will your heart be also." Moreover, when you become too engrossed with property and how to accumulate property, it generates some basic earthly instincts in human nature. I'm talking about the instinct of human pride; I'm talking about the basic instinct of human envy; I'm talking about the basic instinct of human greed. Pride is one of the original sins of the world.

Pride is likened unto the attic of a house - the higher the attic of the house, the emptier it is - so it is with the pride of human beings. "He who exalts himself shall be humbled and who humbles himself shall be exalted." Envy - whenever there is envy that means that somebody is becoming successful and the envious person is too jealous in relation to that other neighbou r.

Whenever any person becomes successful in that he has accumulated some property, that only means that you yourself can also be like him, if you yourself can become industrious and thrifty, and work hard also, in order to achieve what he had achieved. There is no reason at all for anyone to be envious. It is a challenge to our personal capacity to emulate the more successful person in his line of endeavour. But whenever there is envy, there will be strife. Whenever there is strife, there is divisiveness.

Whenever there is divisiveness, there will be all kinds of malicious machinations and that will be the beginning of evil acts and evil designs. Greed is a negative instinct mostly generated whenever people are scrambling after money or after property. The members of a most closely-knit family will never speak to one another whenever it involves a contest as to who should possess this particular property, that particular land, this particular house. Everything good relationship will be destroyed because of greed - covetousness.

Beware, therefore, of covetousness, because a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. Men do not live by bread alone. This means that it is also the obligation of all governments to satisfy the non-economic needs of human beings. It means that the government is also under an obligation to respond to the spiritual needs of the human spirit that is in us. It is the materialism of this world that imprisons the human spirits in men.

Jean Jacques Rosseau, a great social philosopher said, "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains." We are born free, the human spirit is born free, but we are chained by our relationship to the material things of the world. We want to do some things, certain great things in life, but we can't do it because we are tied down by institutions, by expectations of all people around us. Therefore, government should strive to give men liberty and freedom, the opportunity for liberty and freedom.

18 March, 1985 The question is, does the New Democratic Party Government of Manitoba provide an opportunity for people to be free? Yes, yes, through the social program for the elderly citizens of this province, of this country, the New Democratic Party of this province is trying and attempting to provide the same freedom of choice, even in old age, for help to the aged and to the elderly. The same social program for the handicapped - despite disabilities, we want to give the same measure of freedom to those under physical disabilities as are enjoyed by any other normal human being.

Therefore, the government is trying to give liberty and freedom to those people under certain disabilities. What is the other need of human beings that is non­ economic? There is also the desire and aspiration for human decency, the desire and aspiration for human dignity. What kind of program of this Government leads to the satisfaction of such non-economic needs? We have designed programs to help and protect abused wives and children in order that they may have digni ty, in order that they may have decency. This is an answer to the non-economic needs of human beings.

Another need that should start right from where we are is the need for human beings for self-improvement, self-development, morally and ethically; and so we have passed the Conflict-of-Interest legislation. We have to start with ourselves. We are too much exposed to the temptation of instant pecuniary gains through connections and influences. We are now bound under this law to declare our own property, our assets, our shares of stocks, our bonds, our debentures, our contracts in order to promote honesty, that we may live a life that is an example to all the other citizens.

We, who are leaders in the communi ty, should teach by example. We should never be embroiled in any kind of scandal that involves pecuniary gain because of influence peddling or other kinds of malicious machinations. - (Interjection) - Then we should declare the land we own, that we may honestly lead a good life, that we may have good conduct, that we may be able to stand and say: "This is the product of my own effort; this is the product of my own energy; this is the product of my own thrift.

My books are open, you can look at it; I have no connections; I have no influence; I did not influence any contract; I did not do any such scandalous, unethical conduct." If we are able to satisfy all these needs of human beings, both economic and material, then any government deserves the overwhelming support of the people in order to re-elect that government and this is the New Democratic Party Government of this Province. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. C. SANTOS: Fair is fair. It is not always the case that you can determine the outcome of events.

The preacher in Ecclesiastes said, "And then I saw under the sun that the race is not always to the swi!t, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favour to the men of skill, but every man is subject to the working of time and chance." There is always that risk of uncertainty in life, and so you cannot be assured of any outcome. 210 Indeed, some of us here, including myself perhaps, may not be re-elected simply by the work of chance; and when that should happen, because of misfortune, some of us may lose our jobs, then all we can say is this: "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord." A MEMBER: Don't blame the Lord.

MR. C. SANTOS: You don't blame the Lord, that is your own loss in life. If we provide all the basic economic needs of human beings, as well as the non-economic but essential needs of human beings, then that individual can achieve the true fulfillment and meaning of life. Love and righteousness will grow in the world, peace and contentment will be present in cultural groups of people; and joy and happiness can be achieved by individuals in their personal life. Mr. Speaker, I would like to briefly summarize what I have said. This Speech from the Throne is a delicately balanced instrument.

It is the instrument by which this Provincial Government responds to the material needs of human beings, to their economic needs. It is also the instrument by which this government responds to their non-economic needs. It promotes not only the growth of property accumulation, the growth of capital assets, the growth of gains and profit, the growth of income; it also promotes the dignity and decency of human beings; it also promotes their liberty and their freedom; and it also promotes equality of opportunity.

Through our Affirmative Action Program for women, Native people and minority groups, we want to provide equality of opportunity for everyone. That is a non­ economic need of human beings, the need for equality of opportunities. In all of this we are trying to achieve a balanced life and only in a balanced life can men find true happiness. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. H. CARROLL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to add my congratulations to our new Deputy Clerk.

I'm very very happy that she has taken that position and I think it will do wonders for this House. I would also like to congratulate the new Member for Fort Garry in his entrance into the House. In the course of my research in the Statutes of Manitoba, nowhere can I find anything that says the Speech from the Throne has to be dull, but invariably Speeches from the Throne are and this one is no exception. Unfortunately , the speeches in a reply have been dull as well and so will mine be, except mine will have the virtue of being short.

Those on the government side have praised the Speech from the Throne to the heavens and those on the opposition side have condemned it to hell. The truth is that it falls into neither category. To misquote somebody or other, "A Speech from the Throne is a Speech from the Throne is a Speech from the Throne." I find nothing in the speech that offends me greatly and I find nothing in speech that stimulates me, but also nowhere in my research have I found anything

Monday, 18 March, 1985 that says that Speeches from the Throne have to be stimulating. The government governs; the opposition opposes and the world goes on. Maybe there'll be some excitement in the Budget. Hope springs eternal. In conclusion, I was reading today in the latest issue of the New Yorker Magazine - and it's alright, Mr. Speaker, I had it checked over by the Honourable Member for Elmwood - I was reading a review of a spy thriller by that great novelist Len Deighton, and in this review it states that in Mexico, an air conditioner is called a politician.

It makes a lot of noise, but doesn't work very well. I imagine I, too, qualify. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. E. HARPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I take great pleasure in taking

part in this debate on the Throne Speech. First of all, I'd like to wish you the best of health, and also I look forward to your wisdom and guidance in the House. I wish the same to the Deputy Speaker. I would like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the Throne Speech. I also would like to congratulate the new addition to our Cabinet, the Honourable Member for The Pas. I have worked with him closely during my travels in the North - (Interjection) I can tell you he's a solid man, a man committed to the principles of equality and other things that - (Interjection) - I didn't pay him anything.

I must admit that he is also proud that he's an excellent squaw wrestler. At this time, I would like to congratulate and acknowledge the tremendous achievement by the Honourable Member for Kildonan whose contributions have assisted women throughout this province and whose dedication inspires us all. At this time, I'd like to applaud the years of devotion to this province of my new seatmate, the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. Like both sides of the House, I found his speech both moving and sincere. I welcome the new Member for Fort Garry. I look forward to his contributions.

I will miss the former Member for Fort Garry for some of his comments and the beliefs that he has in respect to some of the positions that I discussed with him. I must say that the new Member for Fort Garry has tremendous shoes to fill, and I look forward to his performance in the House that will contribute to the well-being of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, last week I was in Toronto along with the Member for The Pas and the Attorney-General.

When I got back, I was shocked to read in Hansard some of the comments that were made by the Honourable Member for Pembina, and I would like to refer to some of his comments in the Hansard. I think it was on Tuesday, 12 March 1985, on Page 66, and toward the end of the page. He says, "What have they done for the Native community?" That's a question he asked. "Well, they've promised them the world, the Native community voted for them, but what have they done for them in the interim? They have discarded them as used people." Further, his comments on Page 68 on the same day.

He says, "They have promised Northern Manitoba the world; they've promised them jobs in their ill-fated Limestone development." 211 Then, he questions the MLA for Thompson. He says, "Are going to be so biased in your hiring requirements that you have to be from Northern Manitoba so that you deprive people in my constituency from the opportunity of working on Limestone?" Well, I'd like to make some comments on that. I have been travelling in the North as a member of the working group. As a matter of fact, I chaired the meeting.

It was with great difficulty that I assumed the job of chairing the meeting - not that I didn't believe that the people wouldn't get what they want - but, in this case, hydro development hasn't really meant development for those communities. As a matter of fact, it has meant destruction of livelihood, destruction of their lifestyle and their way of living. When I went to a community like Cross Lake and I told them about the job opportunities, it was with great difficulty that I told them that. But I believe in this government, that they will deliver.

Also, I believe that the wishes and what the Native people want will be somewhat achieved. As you know, my constituency in Rupertsland is a unique constituency, as I have mentioned in the House before. It is represented by well over 90 percent Native people. The unemployment rate is considerably high; maybe as high as well over 90 percent. The Native people have always wanted to participate in economic activities and enhance the prosperous standards of Manitoba. The people of my constituency don't want handouts; they want to be part of the province· and society generally as a whole.

While the employment rate may be lower in certain areas like Pembina, I can also assure him that if there are any qualified people to work in Limestone from his constituency, he would also have a share of the jobs in Northern Manitoba. I don't think Native people would want to take all the jobs in Northern Manitoba. They want to be part of the development.

As a matter of fact, when we were meeting in Thompson in the early part of February, we had a meeting of all the Native organizations, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, and the Northern Association of Community Councils, and the Manitoba Metis Federation attended the meeting in Thompson at which time they formed a coalition. They formed a united front in order to deal with the Government of Manitoba, and also Manitoba Hydro with regard to northern involvement in the Limestone project. I think they realized that in order to take

part in this project, they have to be involved, and more and more Native people are becoming involved. They are not going to sit idly by and watch development take place, especially when it takes place in their backyard. The Honourable Member for Transcona, the Energy Minister, announced in Thompson a northern preference clause which was rear:hed between the Manitoba . . . Hydro Council and the Project Management Association. This Northern preference clause would have Northern Native people hired first for the Limestone Project.

I don't know the exact wording, but I believe it would entail qualified Northern Native people. But also at that meeting in February in Thompson, the Minister of Energy and Mines announced a training agency which would be based in Thompson. These are the intiatives that Native people are looking towards and that I've supported. As a matter of fact, the reason

Monday, 18 March, 1985 they formed a partnership board was that they wanted to ensure that they have meaningful and full participation in the development of the Limestone project. It is a unique organization, I believe, because it is the first time that Native organizations have come forward in such a united front.

As a legislative assistant to the Minister of Northern Affairs, as the Member for The Pas was to the previous Minister of Northern Affairs, I have been able to be involved in some of the decisions and see that the concerns of my constituency are met, one of them being that job opportunities and training opportunities in the development of Limestone, that their concerns are met and they have job opportunities. As an Indian person, I know what it means to be without any kind of income and without any kind of support services provided to me.

Being in a remote isolated community, I see that the cost of living in the North is very high and the standard of living is very poor. As a matter of fact, inflation has hit us quite hard, harder than the average Canadian or Manitoban. The price of gas in Red Sucker Lake is I believe $3. 70 a gallon which is about 83 cents a litre. Our butter is about $3. 15; milk, one litre is $1.99 compared to 84 cents here in Winnipeg. Potatoes - I don't have a price for potatoes but I would imagine they'll be considerably higher because you have to fly them in.

If you fly them in it will cost you 62 cents a pound, so it's quite high. Five pounds of potatoes, just the freight alone would be about $3.00 - that's freight alone - but on top of that you add the retail value of it, so it's quite high. We have tried to grow some potatoes but they come out small. I remember one person trying to grow potatoes and he planted them all summer and never grew, all this time they had been treated, so he didn't get any crop that year. I'm pleased that this government is moving toward a direction where northern communities could have more say in their affairs.

Last year, I believe, the Department of Northern Affairs signed a block agreement with Cross Lake community, so that they would be able to ensure that the community could plan and also determine their future. I'm also pleased to see that something is being done in respect to the Child and Family Services. I look forward to the new Child and Family Services for enhancing the protection of abused children and also providing the support of families.

As you know, during my first speech at that time, there were many Native children who were being placed out of the province and exported to the U.S., and I spoke in my Throne Speech about how shocked I was and encouraged the government to stop the exporting of children and I'm glad that they put a moratorium on exporting children. These children are probably future Labour Ministers or future leaders of tomorrow, and as a matter of fact, many of the children that were placed out of the country have come back to Canada.

There are some tragic stories about children that had been placed in the States, Aboriginal children that were placed in other families, the stories of Aboriginal children placed in foster homes and the affairs of child care has been a sad one, because many of the non-Indian values and views were being imposed on the affairs of Indian families. To this end, I look forward in seeing that more Indian families and Indian child caring agencies have more say in determining where children are placed. 212 I must say Manitoba has a leading role in providing child care services.

As a matter of fact in February, 1982 we signed a Master Child Welfare Agreement with the Federal Government and this has provided a greater say for many of the bands and tribal councils, for instance, the . . . Agency, the DOTC, Child Care Family Services. The Throne Speech also dealt with equality for women. I must say that this is a commitment that has been involved for this government to obtain economic equality and social justice for Manitoba women.

Let me assure you that the Manitoba women and also the Aboriginal women of the country have been done great injustice because of the provisions under The Indian Act where - it's a discriminatory Indian Act - where many of the Aboriginal women have lost their rights. They have ceased to be Indians - legally I guess they are no longer Indians - but I'm glad to see that this bill is being addressed by the Federal Government. They've introduced Bill C-31 on February 27th, Minister Crombie. I think one of the reasons for introduction of this bill is because the

Section on Charter and Freedoms comes into effect April 17th, which would automatically displace or else void

Section 12(1)(

b) of The Indian Act. I think if that wasn't the case, a lot of the Aboriginal women would be out wondering whether they're Indians or non­ Indians. This issue has been around for many years and has torn many of the families apart. I guess the act will address the issue of discrimination where many of the Indian women who want to marry non-Indian or non-Status or non-Treaty Indians would be able to do so without losing their status.

Also it would address the issue of reinstatement of the women who have lost their status due to marriage to a non-treaty person or a non-status person and would be able to apply for membership or become an Indian again. This is one of the things that's been addressed by Aboriginal people because it has denied many of the women from benefiting from their treaty rights or Aboriginal rights. As you know, many of the women lost their rights, not only by marriage but by other means, and also included men. They were disenfranchised.

As a matter of fact, many of the men lost their status because they went to war or lost status because they became a priest, a minister; so if I wanted to become a priest at that time and if I wanted to remain an Indian, I had to lose my status in order to become a priest, or else if you became a doctor or a lawyer, you would lose your status. I was told that there are 39 ways of losing yourself, of becoming an Indian, but I've always regarded myself as an Indian and the system is always trying to make me not an Indian but I always have survive.

If anybody wants to know how to become an Indian, I don't know how because I don't think anybody could ever change who they are. I think only on paper that could be done. One of the things that I'm always speaking about and trying to get across to my colleagues and to the Legislature here and to governments is the issue of self-government I think that's something that's always been talked about without any recognition. A MEMBER: Would that have helped out at Fort Alexander?

Monday, 18 March, 1985 MR. E. HARPER: In Fort Alexander, that may have helped but we're always under the bind of Indian Affairs. Under The Indian Act we are not given any authority to determine our own future. I think Indian people recognize that they have to protect the individual and also the collective rights of people. Let me assure you that the Indian people have always recognized that, have always recognized their fellow beings. I will also be attending the First Ministers' meeting in Ottawa.

At that time, I hope to contribute more in those discussions on achieving self-government because self-government is not anything new. It is a matter of recognition that has always existed, of Indian people, the right to self-government, even before the arrival of Columbus, who supposedly came to India and got lost - and we were discovered by somebody who was lost. But we welcomed many people from across the country and we've always dealt with them fairly and looked after them when they came here.

As a matter of fact, the Selkirk Settlers, when they first came here, if it wasn't for Chief Peguis and some of the senior leaders, they would have starved and these are some of the things I'd like to see being done. We have never had the recognition of the contribution that we made to this country. As a matter of fact, in Canada, there are only two languages recognized in the country, of our founding nations, which is the English and the French, and there's never been a mention of Indian people at all participating in the development of this country. We have contributed a great deal.

As a matter of fact, we gave most of our land away in return for certain benefits. The government hasn't acknowledged all the promises that were made. One of them is the outstanding Treaty Line Entitlement and hopefully that will be fulfilled shortly; and that is something I look forward to because, during my time as the Chief of the Red Sucker Lake Band, I pursued that and I later pursued it here as a member of the Legislature. It is something that I'd like to see accomplished this year or, hopeful ly, shortly.

I was going to speak about the International Youth Year, this year being the recognition of the young people of the world. Last week, some five young men ran across the country or ran down from St. Theresa Point to Winnipeg, to raise and finance a community recreation centre in their community. I must congratulate those individuals that ran. I think they ran a total of 500 miles. I don't know how much they collected but I'd like to name those five marathoners: Martin Manias, Russell Harper, Maurice Har per, Carl Harper and Johnny Manoakeesick. Those are the runners that came from St.

Theresa Point and arrived at the Legislative Building on Friday. I must say I ran a few kilometres myself when I was younger. I used to run in Birtle a long time ago. Last week I was with the Premier in Weskachmik. I'm glad the Premier is able to avail himself to those communities, unlike the previous Premier. He never came to Red Sucker Lake or never came up North. A MEMBER: He never showed his nose anywhere where he was needed. MR. E.

HARPER: I had a very difficult time to convince the former, when he was Minister of Highways. - 213 (Interjection) - No, we don't operate that way at all, but what happened at Camilles is we had a gravel contract that we bid on and then somebody sent in the contract from outside; maybe they figured the winter road was built for that, I couldn't be sure. I don't know, but anyway the winter road was built. A MEMBER: Who did that? MR. E. HARPER: I don't know who did that.

Anyway, in conclusion, I'd just like to say that the program that's been outlined in the Throne Speech is something I look forward to in being implemented. With that, I'll conclude my remarks, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Santos: Before the Chair recognizes the next speaker, I'd like to introduce Ken Dillen, who is a former member of the Assembly. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE Cont'd MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. l. HYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to, Sir, along with my colleagues, congratulate the Speaker of the Ho.use on being appointed once again to the high office as Speaker of this Assembly. I'm sure that the task of keeping the business of our province in order and keep it running smoothly, from time to time, becomes a concern to the Speaker. I do trust that his health will stay with him and that he will be able to see us through the Session. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is customary to congratulate the mover of the Throne Speech and the seconder, of course - the Members from Wolseley and Riel. Their job, I'm sure, was not an easy one.

The fact that the document contained so very little for anyone to comment on. I wish to congratulate the Member for Fort Garry. I see he's not in the Assembly at this particular time, however, I want to - (Interjection) - There he is, yes, sorry. I wish to congratulate the Member for Fort Garry on being introduced for the first time into this Assembly. I'm sure that the Member for Fort Garry will serve his constituency well, and I'm sure that that will go on for many years. We look forward to hearing much from you, sir. Also, my congratulations to the Member for The Pas. I have respect for the Member for The Pas.

I think he is a gentleman. We are pleased with his appointment, of course. I want to suggest to the Minister that he'd better not get too comfortable in his office, because there's great rumours of an election coming up and he might just find himself working back on the railroad again. Mr. Speaker, I know we on this side of the House will miss the opportunity of being able to banter back and forth with the Member for Ste. Rose. While he was a Minister of Government Services and earlier on the Minister of Municipal Affairs, we have enjoyed bantering back and forth with the Minister. Sir, now that he has

Monday, 18 March, 1985 a new position, advising the Premier of the province in the capacity of his executive assistant, we know that his wisdom will not be lost. He'll be governing the affairs of the province and I'm sure they'll run more smoothly now with the Member for Ste. Rose as an assistant to the Premier. Mr. Speaker, we, on this side of the House, along with many thousands of Manitobans, took great pride this past summer in greeting our Queen, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, and to have the pleasure of meeting her during her short stay in our province. Also, Mr.

Speaker, to the thousands of Manitobans, it was probably a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see and hear firsthand the words from His Holiness Pope John Paul II. As it was mentioned in the Throne Speech, Manitoba will be recognizing 1985 as the International Youth Year. So, we should, Mr. Speaker. We all want to see the young people of our province and indeed the young people of our nation be given every possible opportunity for security in their jobs, for the proper and decent education programs, for the best possible health care, and the opportunity to enjoy a safe and clean environment.

During the Throne Speech, the First Minister made mention of the strong economy expansion that brought improved opportunities and greater securities for many Manitobans and Manitoba businessman. Is the Premier of our province not aware of the many bankruptcies that have taken place in the past three years? The bankruptcies are 6.1 percent higher in 1984 than in 1981. On top of that, Mr. Speaker, we have layoffs.

Why just to mention a few, there's some here that number 2,000 to the CMCP; 70 Canada Cement - they're due to slow sales; another here with 1,500 laid off - reduction in orders - that's the Motor Coach Industry, 1,500 people. Mr. Speaker, the First Minister was bragging, you might say, about the strong economy of province. It's a small consolation to the many who are on the very brink of declaring bankruptcies today.

Anyone waiting for some encouragement towards where the province is today, as far as expansion is concerned, and where this province is heading under the leadership of this government, were left very disappointed hearing what was read from the Throne Speech the other day. Mr. Speaker, I could make mention this evening on the condition we find so many of our farmers in, the economy of our province, the unemployment that surrounds us, the number of families that were denied assistance by the cutback in different programs.

The one, in particular, that comes to my mind is the CRISP Program where there were 1,000 families denied assistance. One family in my constituency, a young family, their family farm was hit by the tornado that struck through in the north side of my constituency. It wiped out their farm buildings. They were faced with rebuilding their cattle sheds to prepare for winter to house 150-head of cattle. They made an application for assistance under the CRISP Program and they were denied. Now, Mr. Speaker, it's programs like the one I mentioned that does assist a number of people in the time of need.

I'd like to make mention that this particular case, this family has never been a ward on 214 any government in Canada, ever. They raised their family in their manner, in their own way. They fish during the winter months and look after the cattle throughout the summer. Mr. Speaker, it's pretty discouraging for people like them when disaster strikes, like it did this summer and wiped them out. Mr.

Speaker, on or about February 14th, news of the proposed closing of the School of Nursing at the Manitoba Development Centre in Portage la Prairie, better known to the population for many years as Manitoba School for Retardates in Portage la Prairie - that news was leaked out. I was first informed, Mr. Speaker, of the proposed closure by a long-distance telephone call. At first I could not quite believe just what this individual was saying to me. It came as a total surprise.

The surprise was not only my surprise, but it was a surprise to all those young people who were presently in the midst of their training on a two­ year course. Mr. Speaker , normally when the government is reviewing a feasilibity of a part of the Manitoba Development Centre or any other department, I would suggest, the study or review is done in consultation with the local executive management team. In this case, Mr. Speaker, there was no prior consultation with the Registered Psychiatric Nurses Association. Well, Mr. Speaker, thank God that information leaked out when it did.

It showed the employees and the students that they were not dealing with an open government, as was promised when they took government in 1981. You can remember how the government, when they were campaigning, promised that when elected they would be an open government. Now look what goes on behind the closed doors of government. Well, Mr. Speaker, you can just quite imagine the way that word spread around in a small city like Portage la Prairie and throughout the walls of the Manitoba Development Centre.

The students themselves were upset; the instructors were all upset; the parents of patients who have been receiving personal care for so many years were upset . The total staff just couldn't believe what was being rumoured around Portage la Prairie at that time. I don't blame any one person for being totally dumbfounded that all this could have happened with no consultation going on. From that moment on, Mr. Speaker, the position of the Registered Psychiatric Nurses Association of Manitoba was that their work was to stop the closure of the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Portage. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to read just a portion of the Registered Psychiatric Nurses Association Board of Directors - their immediate goal at that time was to stop the closure of the School of Nursing in Portage. "Our position is that the plans for closing - they, the government, call it 'phasing out,' no intake in 1985 - the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Portage la Prairie are at the best, premature; and at the worst, a very poorly thought-out proposal with no evidence to back it up except as a purely budgetary decision." A MEMBER: Political, it was political, Lloyd. MR. l. HYDE: Well, you say it was political.

That will be �roven later on.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 Mr. Speaker, "The role of the RPN in the development of handicapped need to expand and increase rather than be deleted or reduced. The closure of the School of Psychiatric Nursing would affect the recruitment of qualified persons to work with persons with development handicaps, both in the community and in instructions. This would, in turn, mean that at least one category of manpower would have to be developed to replace registered psychiatric nurses. There would most probably be an increase in costs. There certainly would be very little saving of dollars which apparently what appears to be the major issue." This

article goes on. It says, "The potential of the practice of registered psychiatric nurses with persons with developmental handicaps, has generally not been actualized." Mr. Speaker, the Portage School of Nursing is the only one in Manitoba which is located in an institution treating the mentally handicapped.

The schools at Brandon and Selkirk are located at institutions treating the mentally ill. � Sir, it has been brought to my attention that there , is a difference in the training of the student nurses at the Manitoba Development Centre and that of Brandon and Selkirk, as told by many who are and have been trained in the Centre at Portage la Prairie. There is a letter. It was addressed to me, Mr. Speaker, and this was signed by Winnie Pauch. "Dear Mr. Hyde: I heard of the plan for phasing out the School of Psychiatric Nursing and was both amazed and distressed by this news.

"I graduated from this program in 1973 as one of the top academically seated in the province. I have worked in the field of psychiatric nursing since graduation, both at the Manitoba Development Centre and in the community. I have had the opportunity to serve both in the local and provincial executive of the Registered Psychiatric Nurses Association and also on their Education Advisory Committee. "In the practise of my profession, I have had occasion to supervise many students both from this school and others in Brandon and Selkirk.

It has been my view that the RPNs trained in Portage la Prairie have a unique contribution to make in the field, especially in regard to the development of the mentally handicapped. "I would strongly urge that the decision re closure be reconsidered. I trust that the sharing of my views will be taken into consideration." Mr. Speaker, after hearing from people such as Mrs. Pauch, I wonder will this government take into consideration just what they are attempting to do in regard to the closure of this school.

On March 12th, during the question period, several questions were put to the Minister of Community Services - (Interjection} - That's right, she did not answer one of them. She evaded the questions. I could read the questions that were put to the Minister at that time, however she knows very well just what was put to her. There is one portion here that I do wish to read.

The question was, "Can the Minister inform the people of Portage la Prairie and the staff at the Manitoba Development Centre as to whether a decision had been made to close out the School of Psychiatric Nursing at the centre?" And the Honourable Mrs. Smith's reply was, "Mr. Speaker, what is being actively considered 215 is the best way to train psychiatric nurses throughout the province.

Part of the consideration, since we currently have three schools that are training psychiatric nurses, albeit with different specialities, is ii there is a different arrangement of the instruction and the placement that can achieve the same results in a more economical way. That is under active consideration with consultation with all the groups affected." Mr. Speaker, there's more to this than just the economics of the costs of running that school, as has been explained by different letters that I have received informing me of what is taking place.

This Portage School of Nursing has been building over a period of 25 years and cannot be duplicated at Brandon, Selkirk, Red River Community College or any other community college. This is a press release from the . . . I'll not commence to read that, Mr. Speaker, but I do wish to carry on in regard to this closure of the nurses' school in Portage la Prairie. I believe my time is just about up at this particular time. Mr. Speaker, there is one letter here that I do wish to read at this time. "Mr .

Hyde, my wife and I are concerned regarding the contemplated closure of the School of Nursing at the Manitoba Development Centre. The first indication of the proposed closure was through news media in mid-Fe bruary. It appears to me to be a unilateral government decision. Was there public consultation or other community involvement in formation ol the decision?" MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Order please, order please. In accordance with our Rule 35(3), I'm interrupting the debate for the question on the motion. QUESTION put on the amendment, MOTION defeated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR.

H. ENNS: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. The question before the House is the proposed amendment by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, as printed. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Banman, Birt, Blake, Brown, Doern, Downey, Driedger, Enns, Filmon, Gourl ay, Graham, Hyde, Johnston, Kovnats, Lyon, Manness, McKenzie, Mercier, Nordman, Oleson, Orchard, Ransom, Steen.

NAYS Adam, Anstett, Ashton, Bucklaschuk, Corrin, Cowan, Desjardins, Dodick, Evans, Eyler, Fox, Harapiak, Harper, Hemphill, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackling, Malinowski, Parasiuk, Pawley, Penner, Phillips, Plohman, Santos, Schroeder, Scott, Smith, Storie, Uruski, Uskiw. MR. DEPUTY CLERK, G. Mackintosh: Yeas, 23; Nays, 30.

18 March, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: The motion is accordingly lost. Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As always, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be able to participate in the Throne Speech Debate and I'd like to begin with the customary congratulations to those who have, over the past year or the past few days, performed their duties in service for the province. Of course, l"d like to begin by congratulating the mover and the seconder of the Throne Speech Debate.

They did an excellent job, outlining not only the elements of the Throne Speech Debate which are so important to the people of this province, but also directly relating them to the people they have been elected to represent. I had an opportunity to hear the first contribution from the Member for Fort Garry and can tell him that I appreciated his comments and look forward to hearing many more contributions from him during the present term of this Legislature. I'd also like to offer my congratulations to the Member for The Pas, the new Minister of Northern Affairs.

I consider the Member for The Pas not only to be a friend and a colleague and an excellent Minister on behalf of his portfolio and an excellent MLA on behalf of his constituent s, but also a mentor from whom we can all learn very much and I look forward to his contributions to this debate and the perspective that he brings to the discussions and the dialogue. Of course, my colleague, who has left the Cabinet and who is most famous for not only his Main Street Program but his dry wit and sense of humour which, many times, brought a new perspective to these debates.

Our colleague from Kildonan, we all expect back here very shortly and look forward to the opportunity to have her once again sit among us and participate in these proceedings. Of course, I'd like to congratulate the new Deputy Clerk, the Pages and you, Mr. Speaker, on your duties that are challenging and during this present Session will probably be most demanding. I know that you are up to the challenge of your office and will serve your position with grace and digni ty. I understand that no one has taken the opportunity to congratulate the new Deputy Leader, the Member for Turtle Mountain.

I think he deserves those congratulations. His task is not an easy one, but it is one to which he is well-suited. That was meant as a compliment, and please don't let anyone misinterpret it. As always, I welcome this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to speak to those issues before us as outlined in the Throne Speech. I especially appreciate the chance to discuss these issues because they are so important to Manitoba as a whole, and important to Manitobans as individuals. They are important issues to the youth of this province who want nothing more, Mr.

Speaker. than a fair chance to use their energy and their skills to secure their future and the future of their province. They are important issues to the farmers in this province as they draw upon their collective expertise and strength to meet the natural challenges that confront them and, 216 as well, to meet the unnatural ones such as high interest rates and policies of the Federal Government.

They are important issues to Northern Manitobans as they look up to the upcoming hydro development, and we can all be very pleased with the announcement that the Minister of Energy and Mines and the Premier were able to make this afternoon, as they look to that development as an opportunity to gain new skills, to replace welfare with work, and to strengthen their regional economy through their own entrepreneurship, their own dedication, their own commitment, and their own hard work.

The issues in the Throne Speech are important issues to the small business owners in this province as they weave our economic fabric piece by piece through their initiative, and through their entrepreneurial spirit. There are important issues to the co-operators across the province, as they strive to consolidate existing operations, and, at the same time, build upon their vision of a co-operative future through new initiatives, imagination, hard work, and commitment to the co­ operative spirit. The Throne Speech talks about important issues to the unemployed.

There are too many unemployed in this province and across this country, who want nothing more than a chance for a decent job and who deserve everything that we can do to create that opportunity with them. There are important issues to the young families starting out who need affordable housing, who need quality education, accessible and quality day care, appropriate infrastructure, and a future of hope and optimism.

The Throne Speech talks about important issues to those who have long served their families and their society, and who now need fair pensions , senior citizens' accommodations, and most importantly, our respect, our understanding and our support. There are important issues to those who rely on social services for quality health care, for reasonable social services, and for a caring, compassionate government. The list goes on and on and on. They are all crucial issues and that is exactly why this Throne Speech and the responses of every member who takes the opportunity to speak to it are so very important as well.

Mr. Speaker, let's be clear about one thing. This is not a perfect Throne Speech. We, as authors, are not perfect people, but we are as a group called to a perfect mission. We are all here because we believe in that perfect world, although we may perceive it differently from our own vantage points. We are all here because there is hunger, because there is unemployment, because there is suffering and pain and need. We are here because beyond all that there's hope and there's optimism and there's a commitment to change.

This Throne Speech, this government, the New Democratic Party Government speaks to that vision of Manitoba and its message is very clear. The message is a simple one. We say that Manitobans and our government are working together for a better future. The Throne Speech says that we have been able to weather the recent recession better than any other province because of good planning and a strong commitment to a fair and equitable society. It says that our economy strategy is working and that our social system is being protected and, more importan tly,

Monday, 18 March, 1985 improved. It says to all Manitobans across the province that by continuing to work together, all of us can build upon our efforts of the past three years and we can improve conditions more for the ordinary Manitoban. It says there is a vision of a responsive economy where the individual is respected and we care each for the other. It says this government's economic strategy puts Manitoba first, and by providing meaningful jobs and improving our communities, we are all securing our economic future for generations to come. When that strategy works, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba works.

So, that is what the New Democratic Government says to Manitobans in the Throne Speech before us. Speaker after speaker after speaker on this side has talked about the successes we have already had. You know, there are more Manitobans working today, in the last year alone, than there were in many years previously - 12,000 more Manitobans at work. Our percentage increase in employment for 1984 was the best in Manitoba since 1978 and the fourth highest in the country, if you want to make those comparisons.

Our unemployment rate is the second lowest in the � country, and on numerous occasions throughout the past number of months, we have had the lowest unemployment rate. Now, having said that, let it be known that from our perspective there is still too much unemployment and as long as there are people who are willing to work, who can't find meaningful jobs, we will need to do much more. We are proud of the progress we have made. Inflation is down. I remember years back when the members opposite were in government, they used to brag how inflation was down.

Well, the Consumer Price Index for Canada for 1984, was an increase of 4.4. Again, in Manitoba, we did better than that with a 3.6 percent increase for the same year. It should be noted that this was the lowest increase in living costs for nearly a decade. Our health care system, our educational system, our social services are efficient, effective, and more importantly when you look at the other provinces around us and what's happening there and what the Federal � Government is talking about, they are intact.

Compare that to what's happening in provinces like British Columbia and Alberta, and it soon becomes all too apparent what can happen when Conservative philosophy shapes government policy. It's the people that suffer. Our housing starts are among the best in this country, not because of what we did alone, but because we have been able to work with the industry and with Manitobans who want affordable housing. Because of the co-operation between our government and the housing industry, we're able to make that statement. Now young families can afford homes, and at the same time, our economy continues to grow.

Investment in general, as the Minister for Finance talked about, shows the same patterns as other indicators with Manitoba showing fine performance in comparison to the average percentage increases throughout the rest of the country. There is a confidence and there is an optimism in Manitoba today. I'm not using these statistics in a boastful way, but because we believe that all Manitoba should take some pride in how they have worked, how 217 we have worked together in partnership to build a better province.

I also tell you that those statistics show that our vision is working, that it is possible to make a difference by daring to be different. What exactly is that difference between a New Democratic approach and that of the Conservatives? One need only look to the recent speeches by members opposite in this Legislature in order to see the difference. Mr. Speaker, over the past few days I've listened to and :'ve reread the speeches and the comments of the opposition, just trying to discover what it is in their words that lead us to their vision, just what their vision of the future might be.

All I've been able to find is a reoccurring theme about how magnificent they are and how anyone who opposes them is belligerent, stupid, deceitful, or a whole list of other adjectives not of a nice nature. To hear them speak, if you are a Conservative, the world is your oyster and every Conservative is its pearl. Their speeches, to date, Mr. Speaker, left a bitter trail of self-aggrandizing and personal attack and they haven't told us very much about what that vision might be - if they have a vision at all.

They must believe that by their silence on the issues of importance to Manitoba, they can win the next election, because it seems they have become fixated on that upcoming election and that they will say almost anything, or even better yet, they'll say nothing in order to win. They have given up any pretense of beii:ig a productive and effective opposition, just so they can score some electoral points or attempt to score those points. Their silence, their inconsistencies, their increasingly more apparent lust for power betray the contradictions in their arguments.

But lust with power is not enough to win an election. Somehow, sometime, sooner or later, they are going to have to tell Manitobans whether or not the Conservative Party has a vision and that's a big question right now. Sometime they will have to tell Manitobans just what they will do and just what they won't do and somehow they are going to have to find the wherewithal to take a stand on the issues. - (Interjection) - To date? During this Session? All they have given the people of Manitoba is a diatribe of complaints and a litany of half-answered questions.

Let's compare what both the New Democrats and the Conservatives in this House have been saying during this Session. Mr. Speaker, New Democrats worked a bill that has strengthened the economic base so that thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of Manitobans can work, and more importantl y, make a positive contribution to building Manitoba's economic future. The Conservatives talk about how the economy is going to hell in a hand basket and it's everybody's fault but their own. That's what they talk about in the Throne Speech debate. Listen to them carefully.

New Democrats worked to develop the Limestone project which holds great potential for Manitobans and particularly Northern Manitobans. Now here the Conservatives aren't quite so clear in what they say, but I'm going to try and guess at what it might be. Now I think what they're saying is that - well, they're not really opposed to Limestome but they're opposed to Limestone's schedule. And even if they weren't

Monday, 18 March, 1985 opposed to Limestone, they'd be opposed to our efforts to ensure that Northerners and Manitobans, and more specifically, Northern Natives, are able to participate fully in this major construction projects. New Democrats work towards a decade of hydro developments and the benefits that will accrue to all Manitobans from it and the Conservatives talk about a quick fix and how they're opposed to it. New Democrats work for fairness and co-operation with the Federal Government. We speak out against unfair cuts on behalf of Manitobans, but we do so from a principled position.

More importantly, we seek only a fair and reasonable relationship with the Federal Government through a continuing dialogue. What do they do? They apologize for their friends. They go around and around and around in some of the most confusing circles, trying to explain this and justify that. 218 The cuts to the National Research Council Institute? Well, we really started that, they say, but then the cuts aren't so bad because someone will come in the building because the building is still being built now. The cuts to the Churchill and the Gimli Rocket Range where do they stand on those issues?

The equalization issue - where do they stand? And a list of unfair cuts by the Conservatives in Ottawa goes on and on and on and their circling, chasing their political tail, continues day after day in this House, Mr. Speaker. MF!. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. When this matter next reaches the floor of the House, the honourable member will have 22 minutes remaining. The time of adjournment having arrived, this House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).