VOL. 2 PRELHUNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, DECEI1BER 12 , 19_8 3 , NO. 76

December 12, 1983 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 3888 SD - 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, when Mobil Oil farmed out the acreage offshore to Husky-Bow Valley,the Minister responsible for offshore resources (~r. Marshall) indicated and was quoted in the newspaper at that time saying about 865 jobs will be created by this move.

Now would the hon. gentleman tell the House how he arrived at that figure, how there would be 865 additional jobs as a result of Mobil farming out acreage to Husky-Bow Valley? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the jobs,as I recall,~were on the basis of information that had been given at the time 1the estimates of Husky-Bow Valley. I mean, there is an intention on this acreage to conduct exploration and those were the figrues. I was very glad to see, Mr.

Speaker, that the bulk of them - I cannot rem~~er the exact percentages now but I think it was in the vicinity of 70 per cent - were going to Newfoundlanders. This was as a result of 1 really represented an impact of the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum regulations that have been in effect for some time,and the companies being aware of them,and in cognizant of our representation to them on behg.lf of New£oundlanders h.ave be­ come accustomed and acclimitized to the imperative of providing jobs for New£oundlanders. We thought 70 per cent was a pretty, good result and that was the way the figures worked out. MR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader 8610

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3888 SD - 2 MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han . gentleman sidetracked by question, stickhand led around it there. I asked the han. gent leman to tell the House where these 865 net ·l jobs would come fr om. There are four rigs operating on the Grand Banks now 1 as hon . members know, the Zapata Ugland , SEDCO 70 .6, the John Shaw and the West Venture. MR . TOBIN: SE DC O 706 is in Marystown . MR . NEARY : No, SEDCO 710 is in Marystown. l-1R . TOBIN : MR . WARREN : anything . MR. NEARY: It was there this morning. Th e 710.

You do not kow The hon. gentleman should keep quite if he does not know the facts . No>v \o/OUld the hon. minister tell - MR. TOBI N : Ask th e fed eral government . It is the 706. MR. SPEAKER CRus selll: Order, ple?.se! 8 611

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3889 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: ~here are already BOO-and-some­ odd jobs, 850 or 860 jobs on these four rigs. Now would the han. gentleman tell the House where the additional 865 jobs are coming from? MR. SPEAKER {Russell): The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: From exploration, Mr. Speaker. I just explained it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, when the han. gentleman is caught boxed into a corner,hon. members can see how he tries to worm his way out of it.

The hon. gentleman made a statement that there would be 865 additional jobs as a result of the farming out of this acreage. Now I am asking the hon. gentleman again, for a final time, to tell the House where these 865 additional jobs are coming from? The four riqs that are there will still be there. The Zapata Ugland, as I understand it, whe~ the agreement ~uns out there is no agreement for that rig to carry on exploration and drilling,so there is going to be a reduction in jobs if the Zapata Ugland does not renew its contract.

Where will the additional jobs come from that the hon. gentleman told the people of Newfoundland would come about as a result of farming out to Husky-Bow Valley? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I will just have to repeat to the hon. gentleman again, it is scheduled to come from exploration activity. If the hon. gentleman wishes to get the details of it, I would suggest that the hon. gentleman refer to the details contained in that statement that was given at the time . They were worked out on the basis of information that was given to us as to the 8612

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3889 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: expectations of the companies as to the amount of the development 1 and it was on that basis that these figures were there. The information is available for the hon. gentleman and the rationale and everything, all you would have to do is consult the statement that was made by the company at the time, copies of which are available to everybody and he can figure it out~ - MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

It is becoming obvious; the jobs the hon. gentleman was talking about are jobs that are already there and the hon. gentleman now is caught. There were indeed no additional jobs. Could the hon. gentleman tell the House how many rigs will be working on the Grand Banks this Winter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: ~t is not so, Mr. speaker, it is the hon. gentleman's own

interpretation of the facts. I say that these jobs are scheduled to be provided as a result of the farming with Husky Bow ·~lalley into Mobil's acreage 1 into that particular acreage at the time, Mr. Speaker. You know, it was carefully and in great detail set out in that statement. The hon. gentleman, if he had a bad week last week 1 he obviously had a bad weekend and he stayed up overnight trying to find out little tiny things to trip the government up on. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, the numbers of 8613

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3890 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: jobs are there and the caculations of them are quite plain. MR.NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: The hon. gentleman can try to inti~idate us all he wants, the hon. gentleman is quite canal:Jle o;:: it. I!e is just a !'Ean, small man with a mean mind. But, Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman is it not a fact that there are four rigs presently drilling on the Grand Banks and there are ~51- odd jobs there now, that there will be no additional jobs this Winter as a result of farming out the acreage to Husky- Bow Valley, that the han. gentleman was merely talking about jobs that already exist and not additional jobs? Was does the han. gentleman not admit that man­ fashion? MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that just does not happen to be so.

If the han. gentleman wants to refer to the figures and the expectations that were indicated as eminating from that farm-in with Husky- Bow Valley, the statement t!lat T·ras ~co.c.e co.t t:'le tir,e, he ~·rill -Find the rational for those jobs. I do not know what the han. gentleman is trying to prove or what the han. gentleman is trying to establish. There is drilling out there now on the Grand Banks, he knows the number of rigs so he askes the question, how many rigs? And the next moment he get up and he says there are going to be four rigs 1 and he tries to use the permutations and 8614

December 12,1983 Ta pe N o . 3890 ah -2 MR.MARSHALL: combinations, because the figures happen to be approximately the same as the number of jobs that would have been created,to give the impression that we were talking about jobs alrer . .:,~ existing. But that just does not happen to be so. Now all the han. gentleman has to do is to look at the statement and he will see the rationale •an~ Q~ t~e basis for which the company made that particular statement and t,o whit;h I referred at the press conference at that point in time. It represents the expectations of the companies as a result of that farming. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEARER (Russell): Opposition. MR .NE A.RY: The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, we know the Zapata Ugland is there and due to terminate the contract prett y soon. Sedco 706 is there, the John Shaw is there and the West Venture is there, so these 850 jobs are already there. Now can the hon. gentleman identify any other rigs that will be on the Grand Banks this Winter drilling in addition to the three? As we know,the Zapata Ugland could very easily leave if they do not get a new contract. So could the hon. 8615

..:· December 12, 1983 Tape 3891 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: gentleman identify the additional rigs that he spoke about that would create these additional jobs? Could he indentify the rigs that will be there this Winter in addition to the three or four that are already there? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of My colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn),has given me a resume of the jobs. He keeps an account of them, which one would expect, because it relates to his portfolio. As of October, 1983, the jobs totalled 1,935 on the offshore.

The figures . are here if the hon. gentleman wants to ~ee them. They are broken down: able-bodied seamen, assistant, driller, account, he~icopter engineer, etc., the total number of jobs being 1,935. I do not know what the hon. gentleman is trying to prove. I mean, all I can say to the hon. gentleman, the fact of the matter is, as far as we are concerned, the more jobs out there the merrier, once the work is being carried out in a safe, orderly and proper fashion for the benefit of Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the Leader of the Of course, we want to see as many people as possible get jobs, but the hon. gentleman made a public statement and we are asking the hon. gentle­ man now to put his facts on the table. The hon. gentleman said there would be an additional 865 jobs created as a result of farming out this acreage. I want the hon. gentleman to identify the rigs where these men are going 8616

December 12, 19 83 Tape 3891 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: to get the jobs. And ., by the way, the 1,935 jobs that the han. gentleman just mentioned include the crews of the service vessels, not only those who are working on rigs. Now, if the Zapata Ugland is taken away, there will be a reduction in jops, not an increase. But I am asking the hon. gentleman to put the facts on the table to back up the statement that he made. Where are the additional jobs coming fr .om? Can he identify the additional rigs that will be on the Grand Banks this Winter? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR .

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, ~ repeat that these are jobs that are going to restilt from the expected explor­ ation activity cf Bow Valley-Husky in concert with Mobil. The reference that I made referred to their statement. I have every anticipation that this number of jots, Mr. Speaker, will still result, and I refer the hon. gentleman to the statement made by the companies themselves and the expression of their expectation as to the number of joB~ whicn will pertain. MR. NEARY: .MR . 'SP EAKER : Opposition. MR. NEAR Y: 8617 _"tr. Speaker . The h.on. t.he Leader of the Mr. Speaker, we can

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3892 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: onlv come to the conclusion,if the hon. gentleman does not give us the facts we can only come to the conclusion that he was bluffing. ~1r. Speaker, he made a public statement 'ahout over 800 jobs,' !Ie said, 'About 865 jobs will be created by the exploration programme/ and Marshall noted that 92 per cent of them will go to Canadians and 71 per cent of them to residents of Newfoundland.'' MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) ':TaR recognized 6n a supplementary question and appears to be reading from some document. : It has been established in our Standing Orders that when asking a supplementary question no

preamble is required. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hen. gentleman in a straiaht question,and I hope I will get a straight answer. There are now four rigs d~illing on the Grand Banks and t.} !£ _ contract of .one: is t1ue to expire shortly . Could the hen. gentleman tell the House how many rigs will be drilling on the Grand Banks this Winter and can the hen. gentleman identify these rigs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I can say that I cannot help what impression the hen. gentleman may get and I do not particularly happen to care what impression the hon. gentleman gets. I am responding to the questions, ~ihich he ha;, uut to :":le, as )-)est ~ can I am not going to repeat the answer again. The answer\ia~ given and he can accept it or not accept it 1that is entirely up to him. As to the number of rigs that will be drilling on the Grand Banks this Winter, at the present time we have to wait and see under what conditions the rigs are going to be drilling this Winter. Now if the hen. gentleman is asking me 8618

December 12 , 1983 Tape No . 3892 MJ - 2 MR. MARSHALL: bow many are anticipated, how many the companies anticipate being put out there, . other things being equa~ my present information is there are going to be four. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (RUssel'l) : The han. the Leader o£ the .Opposition. MR. NEARY: Four, Mr. Speaker, equals the number of jobs we have now , no increase in the jobs that the han. gentleman told the people of Newfoundland about . Let me ask the ~tinister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) if the minister can tell the House the number of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians registered with his department rooking for jobs on the rigs and/or on the service vessels? What would be the number? Does the bon . gentleman have that figure with hirn? 8619

December 12, 1983 Tape 3893 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, first of all let me thank the han. Leader of :the Opposition (Mr. Neary) for asking me the question. As of the end of September - no, I will give him the end of October. As of the end of October the total number of people registered in the offshore is ll,S80,made up of just about everything that is required on the offshore from able-bodied seamen to drillers, to bakers to barge engineers, to diving supervisors and so on. As I understana,there are four rigs that are presently working.

The SEDCO 710 1which is still cr~ the crew change took place on Thursday, I believe. It is still crewed. It is in Marystown right now but it is still crewed. We have the Bow Drill III 1 that is coming here in January. We have, of course, service contractors , that is the supply vessels,etc.,we have eleven of those,and we have seismic contractors , four. The total , as I said,as of the end of August is 1,935.

Wh en the Bo w Dri ll III comes here 1that will be another at least 200 people on the rig, there will be supply vessels 1 which will be manned 1 based on it, But~ have not got the complete detail as to what the total number will be before the programme is put in place. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. gentleman for the information. Almost 12,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are registered for jobs on the offshore. Now could the han. gentleman tell the House if the MED programme is still continuin~or has it been discontinued?

And if it has been discontinued, why it was . discontinued? And what are the chances of those who have been given theMED course, what are their chances of finding jobs offshore? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 8620

December 12, 1983 Tape 3893 PK - 2 MR . DINN : Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say that I am a little bit surprised that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) frowns or turns his nose dow n at 1,935 jobs that are there and would not be there if it was left to his party because he ob viously does not support - S0~1E BON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear ! MR . DINN: He obviously did not , ne ver did support the offshore regulations with respect to the re gulations we passed here in this House of Assembly. 862 1

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3894 SD - 1 MR. DINN: So we would have nobody working out there if it was left to him. When he was in and had an opportunity to have some people working out there 1 there were none working. So r am a little bit surprised that he would turn his nose down at the 1,935 who are working out there. With respect to the MED course, the Marine Emergency Duties Course, that course is a course that still continues to go on. It involves not only people with respect to offshore oil and gas but with respect to our offshore fisheries.

We have a new course that is being put in place right now called BOST, it is called Basic Offshore Safety Training/ which is a two week course. That started recently and we are attempting to diversify that programme so that we can have the programme not only work · here in St. John's but we can possibly extend it to Marystown and Corner Brook and so on. MR. WARREN: About time, is it not? MR.

DINN: The hon. member who interrupt~ and should not be interrupting because he should know the rules of the House, would know that it was impossible,due to the requirement of the Marine Emergency Duti .es cou:z:se, to conduct that course anywhere but St. John's. We did not have the facilitjes. SOME HON. HEr-1BEP.S : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) _: Order, please! MR. . DINN: We did attempt, Mr. Speaker, to do pa:rt of that course through a mobile unit.

Th .e mobile unit did not work as· well as we thought it should 1 but there is a new · cours-e developed now which/ from reports tha,t I am getting,is probably one of the best courses put off for offshore safety training in the world. It is called BOST and we a,re trying to make that course available to as · many Newfoundlanders and Lab:z:adorians as · we possibly can. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, M:z:. Spea.ker. 8622

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3894 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (_Russell) : of the Oppos ·ition. Supplementary, the han. Leader MR. NE.I\.RY : Could the han. gentleman tell the House if those who did the MED course will now have to do the BOST course,or will the MED course qualify them for jobs offshore? And would the han. gentleman tell the House , out of the approximate 12,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are registered for employment offshore, could he tell us what process is us·ed to select employees for jobs offshore? MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. The hon. Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, let me inform, through . this · han. House 1 a.ll Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who have the MED course ,they certainly qualify for offshore. That is a three week course and it is · one that is more involved, we will say, than is : a requirement for the rigs, So we came up with th .e new BOST course. So those who have the MED course qualify. There are something like 3,500 Newfoundlanders · already trained in that course .

The BOST caurse,which. is a two week course and, as I say, is in comparison to , for example, the ~raser Institute in scotland, it is · a course that is better than that one,or the reports that I get back indicate that it is better in that there are more hands on, I believe part of the course is~ for example, conducted out in Freshwater Bay 1 and hopefully it will be conducted in other parts of the Province. Hopefulle the course can Ile expanded to 1 as I 8623

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3895 MJ - 1 MR. DINN:- said, the Burin Peninsula, Corner Brook, Grand Falls, Labrador, Stephenville, hopefully we can make it available to all these areas. ~1!'.. C.?\..LL.~.l'J: Arnold's Cove. MR. DINN: Well, I do not know if we have an institute in Arnold's Cove ·that can conduct the course 1 but we will certainly try to get people from Arnold's Cove on the course as well. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. DINN: We will build the institute. '1-Te may even, as the hon. the Premier said, we may even build the institute first and then make sure that they have total access to the course.

PREMIER PECKFORD: That will be another district gone. MR. DINN: So, Mr. Speaker, to be very clear, those people who have the MED course qualify for any job offshore with respect to safety training. SO.'!E EON. ~'.EMBERS~ MR. SPEAKER (Russell) HR. DINN: Oh, o;11 Order, please! Order, please! We are continuing on with the MED course and we are bringing in a new course, as a matter of fact it ~as already started, called the Basic Offshore Safety Training course, which is a two week course, •.-rhich involves one week or more of classroom time and the remainder of the time with hands-on training, l-1r.

Speaker, as I say, I am told it is one of the best in the world for the purpose for wnich it was intended 1 and I recommend it to anv hon. members. How are people selected for offshore work? Well, Mr. Speaker, this has come up many, many times before. People are selected for offshore work by the employers. Basically what happens, Mr. Speaker, is they 8624

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3895 MJ - 2 MR. DINN: have a copy of our registry,and people go down and attempt to or apply for jobs for the offshore, !f they are registered with the department, they have,of course 1 a list of their qualifications, where they worked before 1 like the Beaufort Sea or off Labrador or off Egypt, Mr. Speaker. Because Newfoundlanders,I understand, are working just about everywhere now.

We have something like 420 Newfoundlanders 1 because they got jobs here and had worked previously in the offshore, 420 Newfoundlanders are working elsewhere in the world, have gone on with the rigs, like the Pellerin and the Neddrill 2 that were off Labrador this year. Four hundred and twenty Newfoundlanders are now working in other parts of the world because they got an opportunity to get en the rigs here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SH-IHS: Thanks to our regulations. MR.

DINN: Thanks to our regulations,as the hon. the minister said,and the companies are so happy with them that they put them on permanently and take them wherever they go in the world. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. HR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the '·~e -vrill qet that institute that the hon. gentleman referred to when Ottawa puts the money up. And as far as jobs for Newfoundlanders are concerned,when SEDCO 706 sai~ed into Newfoundland waters in 1968 the hon. gentleman was still going around in knee pants. MR. MARSHALL : t1R. SPEAKER: Council on a point of order.

A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. the President of the MR. MARSHALL: This is the Question Period. ~he hon. gentleman is making a speech or making comments or doing something. 8625

December 12, 1983 Tape No . 3895 MJ - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Once again I have to remind the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) that he has been recognized on a supplementary question and there is really no need for any

preamble whatsoever . MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ ; this is a new question,not a supplementary. My question is for the hon. the Premier. Would the hon. gentleman, l-1r . Speaker, tell the House what time we can expect action 8626

December 12, 1983 Tape 3896 EC - l MR. NEARY: on a solemn promise that he made when he was presenting final reading of a bill to approve a Newfoundland Volunteer Service medal? He rrade a solerm promise to 7, 000 ~chant Searren scattered throughout this Province that a commission would be set up to investigate the possibility of designing a Volunteer Service medal, either they would get the original medal or a new medal for !v!erchant Seamen. The han. gentle­ man indicated at the time that $70,000, I believe, had been allocated for that project.

Now, could the hon. gentleman tell the House when the Merchant Seamen of this Province can expect action on that promise that was made by the han. gentleman? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is in the system. I will have to check to see just when we will be in a position to finalize the plans on it. The plans are well in hand. By the same token, we also have offered a unique,special medal to the foresters of the Province besides the Marine Service people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: But I will check for the han. gentleman and get exactly where it is now and when we will be in a position to do the same thing for those people as we did earlier for the other volunteer service people who went overseas, and where we had the ceremony and so on. So I will get the exact information for him, but I k.nm 'T it is in the system. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Do I understand correctly then, Mr. Speaker, from the hon. gentleman that they will not 8627

__ _J December 12, 1983 Tape 3896 EC - 2 MR . NEARY: receive the original Volunteer Service medal, that a specia -l medal will be designed and developed for Merchant Seamen? Is that what the hon . gentleman is saying? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. We have indicated on a number of occasions that one of the problems that we have had \.;ith the medal we no\>~ have minted, \oJhich has gone to a large number of people who have been overseas, who have been actually in conflict in Continental Europe, ~~11, the foresters came back and they wished to have the same medal.

And what we have indicated is,because most of the foresters were not actually inconflict, we would prefer to do another medal for them. Now, as it relates to the seamen, I would have to just check to see ho\>~ many were actually in conflict and how many were not and see whether one medal can do for them . But the whol 'e idea in the 8628

December 12, 1983 Tape 3897 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: original medal ,or the medal that is now minted and all the servicemen have,were servicemen who were in conflict on land in Europe. MR. NE ARY: Are you saying the Merchant Seamen were not in conflict? PREMIER PECKFORD: Well 1 I am not saying they were not in conflict, I am just saying that what we wanted to do was to ensure that when we gave a particalar medal it was for a particular purpose of permanent people who were actually in conflict in the Second World War.

Now a lot of the foresters were located in Scotland and in Northern England and we wish to do a separate medal for them. Well,they have been arguing that t~ey should have the same medal as the people who were in conflict. All I am saying is, when it comes to the Marine people 1I am just waiting rather than giving a definitive answer to see whether in fact it would be a third medal for them as opposed to the one that is already minted. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. The han. Leader of the MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, do I understand that the olunteer Service Medal for Merchant Seamen has not yet been designed,has not been sent to the mint yet, it is still in the planning stage and that is as far as it has gotten at the moment? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not have the information at my fingertips for the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) .I indicated that I would get it to see just exactl y whereabouts in the process at at the present moment. But I will get it for the han. gentleman in the next few hours or by tomorrow at the latest. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. 8629

December 12, 1983 Tape 3897 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The bon . Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Rural, Agric~ltural and Northern Develop~ent (Mr. Goudie),under whose jurisdiction comes resettlement, moving communities and so forth. Could the bon. gentleman tell the House how many families are now permanently residing on Red Island in Placentia Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot tell the bon. gentleman exactly how many families are living · on Red Island.

I know there have been a number , My colleague, the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and I, along with the member for the area 1have 'been talking to a group of people down there for about two years 1 who had resided in Placentia primarily, and have expressed an interest in going back to Red Island. and I understand some of . them have. But :' in relation to an exact number., no, Mr. Speaker, I do not know, but I can certainly find out. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. 8630

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3898 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of r7ell, I hope the hon. gentleman will find out for the next session. Perhaps the liinister of Education (Ms. Verge) can enlighten the House as to how nanvpupils the teacher has on Red Islan&, \<Thich micrht crive us some indication of how many families reside there on a permanent basis. Could the hon. minister tell the House how many teachers are on Red Island and how many pupils each teacher has now at this moment on Red Island? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, arrangements were worked out with the Placentia-St. Mary's Roman Catholic School Board for the provision of one teacher on a trial basis for Red Island for the present school year. When the arrangements were worked out in the Spring and Summer,it appeared that there would be nine school-aged children, attending grades from Kindergarten up to and including Grade VI, during this school year 1and in fact nine children were enrolled in those grades in September,receiving instruction from the one teacher provided.

I understand that during the Fall one of the families,which has I think five children,moved off the island on a temporary basis because the mother was pregnant and has some health problems. I have been told that the family intend to return to Red Island to live there premanently,but at the moment there are only approximately four children on the Island.

That is the latest information I had from my officials 1 who in turn have liaised with the people at the school board office in Placentia. with the reduced numbers of students, the board was questioning continuing funding a teacher for the balance of the school year,and the last I heard is that 8631

December 12, 1983 Tape No . 3898 NM - 2 MS . VERGE : the board were going to be talking with the parents concerned before making final plans for after Christmas. There would be so me alternatives that could be considered for instruction for the young children remaining on the Island if the number is reduced below that -required for a viable classroom qualifying for a teacher 1 and one of the obvious alternatives is a correspondence programme . MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! 8632

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3899 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The time for the Question Period has expired. Before we proceed 1 I would like to welcome to the gallery a delegation from the Greenspond Municipal Council with their mayor 1Robert Granter, Deputy mayor Fraser Harding and councillor Michael Bragg. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUE STIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs. MRS NEWHOOK: The hon. Minister of This is the answer to Question 158,Mr. Speaker, from the MHA for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) • MR.SPEAKER: to questions?

Are there any more answers PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERS: The han. member for the Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of some 254 of the men and women who live in the communities of Conche and Grandsois in my constituency. Grandsois 1 as some members may know,is sometimes referred to as St. Julien's. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is very succinct and very straightforward.

If I may read the document which has been signed by these men and women, it says: 'Complaints have been forwarded to council' - that is the community council at Conche - 'about long distance telephone calls made to Roddickton hospital in which patients have been put on hold for a considerable amount of time,thus 8633

~· December 12,1983 Tape No. 3899 ah-2 MR.ROBERTS: having to hang up and pay for an unproductive phone call. Anybody who thinks Roddickton hospital should have a~ toll free number please sign below~ And,as I said,254 of the men and women in these communities have signed this petition and I am very pleased to present it in their behalf. Mr. Speaker, the situation is quite straightforward. Conche for many years had a nursing station.

Last year,because of the savage cut­ backs inflicted by this government in the health care field,the nursing station at Conche had to be closed, as were a number of other facilities throughout the Province. The people of Conche then were required to look to Roddickton for their medical services. Roddickton is about twenty miles away over one of the worst roads in the Province, a road which the Minister of Highways (Mr. Dawe) has consistently and constantly ignored at some considerable effort to himself,I have no doubt. over the last few years. No work has been done on it and the road is in appallingly bad shape.

These people accordingly, Mr. Speaker, have to look to Roddickton for their medical services. The doctor does come to Conche to hold clinics regularly, as do both public health nurses and,I understand, station nurses do,regular nurses as opposed to public health nurses. The clinics have to be booked. The Grenfell Regional Health Board,which is responsible for the delivery of health care services in the area,has an appointment system, a booking or appointment system and that requires a telephone call from Conche to Roddickton.

That is a long distance telephone call in that you have to go through the operators or direct dial but,in any 8634

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3899 ah-3 MR.ROBERTS: event,you have to pay the toll rates for long distance charges, it is not covered in your monthly bill. The people in the community have on many occasions told me of this kind of treatment and the petition is the result of their frustration and their wish that ·the situation be corrected. There are two possible solutions that I would suggest to the House, Mr. Speaker.

The first is the one which the petitioners signed and that is a toll free line, a zenith number so-called,or some kind of system whereby the people in Conche may once again have that which they always had,namely,the ability to get in touch with their medical services without having to go through the long distance operator and incur the charges. Alternately, Mr.

Speaker, a much improved communication system in the station at Roddickton would meet the need because,as Your Honour will doubtless recall with stunning clarity,the first words of this petition were that these people call and they are put on hold and then nothing happens and eventually they hang up or the line goes dead and the call is gone for naught. I support the petition. I assume the Minister of Health (Mr.House) will wish to say something on it, but I do wish to say in fairness to him that this strikes me as being primarily a matter for the Grenfell Regional Health Board at St. Anthony.

I have been in - - touch with the board to send them 8635

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3900 MJ - l MR. ROBERTS : a copy of the petition and to let them know of the way these people feel and to let them know that I share these feelings and request 'some action be taken. The Hinister of Health's (!>Tr.House) role at most would be to provide that board with enough money to enable them to provide the services that the people in the area need and deserve. Mr.

Speaker, let me say simply this is yet another example of what happens when you start trying to cut the amount of money made available to health care; the people in Conche have been seriously inconvenienced because of the government's failure to provide the board with enough ~oney. I urge the minister to do whatever he can to make sure that his flint-hearted colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), takes some of the extra $16 or $17 million that we are getting from Ottawa under the revised calculations in the EPF programme and use that to apply towards health services and restore some of the monies which were cut and thus enable the boards throughout the Province, not just in my district,to continue to deliver health care services at at least the level they had reached before the savage cuts were inflicted by the government last year. I support the petition, Sir. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I rise just to respond to :the petition. I suppose when a person is going to address a petition he is expected to support it. It is not a topic that has come to my attention before. First of all, . I want to comment on some of the inflamatory statements made by the han. member who presented the petition: ':'he savage cuts by this government, t~1e sava'}e cuts, ~·r. '='ne=J:er, an~. I ~.o 8636

December 12, 1983 Tat:)e No. 3900 MJ - 2 MR. HOUSE: want to get into debate because we are not supposed to debate, but a 12 per cent increase is not a savage cut, in my estimation. That is what was given last year. And, of course, all boards, I guess, were given the same relative amount of money. It was not the government's decision to close the Conche clinic, it was a result of the board looking at their priorities and saying that this particular clinic \o[aS not the most necessary adjunct to the system. Certainly, Mr.

Speaker, one would have to look at this and all I can say now is that I will be in contact with the board on the matter but, you know, if we had to insist that there be toll free numbers for all existing services throughout the Province, and many communities have to make long distace calls for appointments - some hospital boards do not have appoint~ents, people just go there and wait. I think the idea to have an apt:)ointment system is good. Of course, this ±s something tha~ vou could not insist that a board do, any more than you would insist that it be done by all boards throughout the Province.

I think if we look at it from that point of view of there being one thing that perhaps should be clarified, people should not be put on 'hold' and left to 'wait', that is the kind of thing · that a board might have control over. The other point is that it is not an exorbitant cost for peot:)le \o[i th their share of medicare to have to place a long distance call. I do not think it warrants any drastic action, but certainly I will be taking it up with the board, particularly about the fact that they are ?Ut on 'hold' and have exorbitant costs for a particular call. !.JR. NEARY: Mr. Sneaker. 8637

c• December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3901 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by my colleague the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. I do not need to elaborate on what my colleague already said except to say, Mr. Speaker, this is another indication of the pain and suffering that is being caused sick people in this Province as a result of the restraint programme implemented by the administration there opposite. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman who just spoke now · will have no excuse in the future; the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) w-·ill have no excuse for curtailing the delivery of health care programmes in this Province any further, there will be no excuse for user/pay fees. The hon. gentleman just got an increase in the established programme of grants from the Government of Canada, another $19 million, I believe, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Finance said $15 million,but the figure that I heard quoted from Ottawa was an additional $19 million for post-secondary education and for the delivery of health care programmes in this Province. So there is no excuse, Mr. Speaker, to make the sick people in this Province suffer any longer. The hon. gentleman now should be able to provide the necessary funding to the Grenfell Health. Board and to all th .e other hospital boards around the Province, enough funding to be able to take care of sick people in this Province.

There are tremendous waiting lists in the various · hospitals throughout the Province and the hon. gentleman can stand there in his place day· in and day out and tell us that there is no pain or suffering, Mr. Speaker, but we are not prepared to accept th.at. I do hope that the point has been sufficiently made and that the new funding will be able to take care of some of the problems outlined. YR. HOUSE: There is no new funding. 8638

Pe.ceml;le.r 12 1 19.83 Tape . No.. 39:0], SD .- 2 I:1R. NEARY ; There ;ts. new· ~-un .d~pg r ~!;' • Spea.ke;r. There ~s- an additional $19 million - a large portion of it going to health care in the Province. So I hope the point has been sufficiently made and that the minister now will act in a humanitarian way and not try to help the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) balance the budget on the backs of the sick and poor people of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, the following bills were read a third time, ordered passed and their titles be as on the Order Paper: "An Act To Consolidate The Law Relating To Compensation To Workers For Injuries Suffered In Th. e Course Of Their Employment". [Bill· No. 801. "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971". (Bill No. 76). "An Act Respecting The Registration Of Nursing Assistants". (Bill No. 751_. "An Act To Amend The Er ,vironmental Assessment Act". (_Bill No. 731_. "An Act To Control And Regulate The Dis ·trioution And Use Of Pesticides". CBill No. 72L.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Defamation". (.Bill No. 70). MR. SPEAKER CRussell)_: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I moved the adjour:unent the other :iay because ! wanted to show· the Hcuse 8639

December 12, 1983 Tape 3902 EC - 1 MR. NEA.~Y: the difference between how we debate on this side of the House and how members there opposite debate these matters. My han. colleague, when he talked about slander and libel, refused to be baited by han. gentlemen there opposite, declined to mention specific instances or cases in this han.

House, and I think because he refrained from singling out members there opposite who are continuously ~owngrading this House, continuously lowering the decorum of this House, continuously slandering and libeling members on this side of the House and. people outside of the House, I believe my hon. colleague gained a great deal of credi­ bility in his debate. So therefore, Mr. Speaker, we were somewhat taken aback - I suppose we should not have been - when the spokesman for the government side of the House, the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) stood in his place and started immediately - here we were, talking about a bill on defamation and the member for St. John's North, in the debate, started to slander and libel members on this side of the House again. Now, we can understand why that happens because we see it every day in this House from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall). MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CA~TER: I cannot ~llow this to pass, Mr. Speaker, but the bill under debate - and the bit I was speaking on was

Section 12 which talked about immunity of the press in reporting matters that went on in this House, and this could not be debated, not sensibly debated without 8640

December 12, 1983 Tape 3902 EC - 2 MR. CARTER: bringing up instances in the past where people's reputations had been blackened and where, I think, the immunity of this House had been used improperly. And I specified that while there were other members over there who were frequently guilty, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was the most guilty of them all. I reiterate that now and I think it is quite clear, and I do not see how I could debate that bill otherwise. MR. SPEAKER (A ylward) : Order, please! To that point of order, I rule that, it is a difference of opinion between two han. members. MR.

CARTER: It sure is! MR. NEAR Y: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if you have heard the story about the han. gentleman going over to the Health Sciences Complex and offering his brain for science. And the doctor over there said, 'We would be glad to have it cecause we have been looking for one that has not been used.' Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman just did exactly the same thing again in his point of order, did the same thing again, squirted his poison across the House.

The hon. gentla~an is continuously berating and slandering and libeling the former Premier of this Province, Mr. Smallwood. He is continuously at it. MR. ROBERTS: .:-nd Mr. Moores. MR. NEARY: :. .. r..d not only that, ;;,ut he does it ?ri vately with another =:~r:ner Premier and sometimes not so privately, Mr. Frank Moores, Mr. Speaker. So if I were the hon. gentl~an, I would just sit back in my seat and say nothing, Mr. Speaker. I know he gets a bad example ~-- ~ i -1 CL>+ I

ll!L December 12, 1983 Tape 3902 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall). Because, as I said before in this hen. House 1 I suppose one of the lowest, Mr. Speaker, one of the lowest levels that you could stoop to in this House, or anywhere else, I suppose, even in a bar, about the lowest level you could stoop to would be to attack somebody • s mother! And we had one hen. gentleman there opposite who - MR. CARTER: Name names. MR. NEARY: Yes, the Government House Leader, who attacked an hen. member's mother. And we all know the results of that, Mr. Speaker. We all know the results of that.

And, Mr. Speaker, do you thirik that the hen. gentleman learned anything from that, learned a lesson from it? 8642

December 12, 1983 Tape 3903 PK - l MR. NEARY: No, he did not. Small men with small minds, Mr. Speaker, - MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A point of order, the hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: I think for the information of the members who were not present in the House at the time, or were not associated with the party or were not around at the time, it should be recalled as a matter of record who was expelled from the House at that time. It was not the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). MR. SPEAKER: To . that point of order.

I rule there is no point of order. The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member who was expelled from the House at that time did a very honourable thing when he went across the House because his mother was insulted by that bon. gentleman,which is about the lowest level to which -you couln ~too~. -~ot only in this House, but if you were downtown in a bar you would not insult a person's mother and call her the names that the hon. gentleman called her, Mr. Speaker. It is about the lowest that I have ever seen in this House in my twenty-one years. Mr.

Speaker, unfortunately there is no protection. There is no protection against that sort of thing. The hon. gentleman stocd ~p the other day and I had to ask the Chair for protection aqainst ...-i.:.:L low. r.nttP,.., Rt:~-t-""""',..,+-c: made by the bon. gentleman. ~nd I have nc ~rctection agai~st that sort of thing. I c~u:ct stand in thi~ House, I could sar t.~e oon. Government Hous ·: Leader (Mr. Marshall) is brinqinq messages from the Mafra and the Chair will not protect the hen. '3 ~, .•. ..;. .....

December 12, 1983 Tape 3903 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: gentleman, and that is tragic and unfortunate indeed, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: you know. MR. NEARY: against, Mr. Speaker. When you are lvinq So you see what we are up Then they stand over there- my hon. colleague raised the question the other day about immunity in this House. Then members on the government side speaking for the administration,because every time a member over there stands he speaks for the administration, he is supporting the administration. If he does not agree with their policy he has to move himself away , separate himself from the administration.

MR. 'l'OBIN: Do not be so foolish. MR. NEARY: So every time a member .speaks he is speaking for the administration. And my colleague made such a good point that obviously hon. gentlemen there opposite resented it. They tried to belittle it. And how did they try to belittle the point made by my han. colleague, Mr. Speaker? They tried to belittle it then by using slander and libel, by being vicious and treacherous, by squirting their poison across the House at mernber ·s on this side to try to undermiae the credibility of a recommendation that was made by my colleague. And , Mr.

Speaker, it would be interesting for the press in the future to take a note, just note from this day forward, just note, take a mental note, of who starts the personal attacks in this House, of where the character assassination originates from, It will be interesting for them to make a mental note and watch what happens during Question Period in this House when you are boxing minister3 in, _ when you are cornering them, Mr. Speaker, and they have n~t got the answers. Just watch the slime and the poison they squ::~. Just watch it, Mr. Speaker. MR.

TOBIN: Listen to the adjectives now, slime, that :..~ :tc-: l ·,.rord you use in this -han. House. 8 6 4l·

Decembe.r 12, 1983 Tape 3903 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: That is the only way I can describe some of the words that come from the lips of the Government House Leader :CMr. Marshall) and the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), as slime, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): member for st. John's North. MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. On a point of order, . the hen. It has not been established, Mr. Speaker, whether slime or slimy is parliamentary a·r not. I would like to , have a ruling? MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order.

I did go through Beauchesne, pages 105. to 108 1 I cannot find the word 'slime' or 's .limy'. I do not think it would be parliamentary if one han. member called another hen~ menibei slimy, but it c.ould be considered in the context the hen. Lea:dei of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is using it, he is saying · - MR. NEARY: MR; SPEAKER: rule it unparliamentary_. MR. NEARY: say - MR . t.1ARSHALL: Words. - words are slime. I cannot The han. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I must (Inaudible) I would like to hear what the Leader of the Opposition (ttr. Neary) will say then. 8645

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3904 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it does not make any difference, but I hope I can motivate the hon. gentleman to get up on his feet and apologize for all the wild, irresponsible, untrue statements that he has made in this House over the years about people. The only one that I have ever seen in my day, twenty-one years going on twenty-two years in this House, the only one who attacked a member's mother. I do not think you can get much lower than that in this House, Mr. Speaker. Now having said that, having established the fact that my colleague made a good point.

I am not so sure, Mr. Speaker,that I would agree 100 per cent with what he said. I am more inclined to agree with the opinion of The Daily News editorial this morning, that we should have some freedom in this House, we should have some. MR. ROBERTS: should be allowed. MR. ROBERTS : should have protection. MR. BARRETT: And we can agree that peoole outsic'le We can agree that people outside That I will agree with 100 per cent. He is some glad you are here today 'Ed', you really helped him out. MR. ROBERTS: Not as glad as Witch-hunt Willie is that you are here. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in that regard our hearts beat as one. As far as cross-examining ministers and raising matters involving members of this House,because we do have rules and regulations, and we do have protection in this House, and we do have disciplinary action, I believe that particular 8646

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3904 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: aspect of our immunity should remain intact, Mr. Speaker. But as far as people outside the House are concerned,I think that they should be protected against slander and libelous statements and statements involving their character that are made in this House. Then the han. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), you were not here the other day, got up and said the reason that he would not like to see the sessions of the House televised is because somebody's character may be attacked in this han. House. MR. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, I have to rise to another point of order. :1R. S-r>FAKER (Ayh 'ard) : A point of order, the han. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: The point of order I was making, Mr. Speaker, was entirely in line with the enlightened editorial that The Dai ly News published and that -was that people outside this Chamber do not have much protectio~ And it seemed to me that if members of the general public did not show the requisite amount of fear for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) there was always the implied threat that he would blacken their names in this Chamber.

And if it were done on live TV this certainly would be a very dangerous thing to allow. _ So, Mr. Speaker, I just rise to correct that point. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the han. member used the point of order as a point of clarification and there is ~c ?oint of order. '::':ce :-,on. Leader C·f the ·:J_?p::o;:.·::ion. ?1R. ZJFARY: ~~-c. Speaker, · I have to scv ::.~!at in all my years ::. .1.~ -:--.e~-:-".>er c f this House I cannot recall one statement ::- _, ': : :·~ -'-> in this House that I would not make - . ..

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3904 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: outside the House. And I have made statements outside the House and I believe as a result I have been the victim of at least three times, if not four times, of havinq writs of libel served on me for statements I made outside the House, and not one of them ever got to court, Mr. Speaker. The irony of it is that not one of them were proceeded with. MR. TOBIN: How much did it cost you? MR. NEARY: It did not cost me anything because I iqn~red them.

All they were designed to do was to stop debate,because once the matter went before the court then we could no longer debate that matter. And that was the whole purpose of the exercise, · to try to silence the Opposition. And the same thing could happen, of course,if we took away our immunity in this House,that if somebody wanted to cut off discussion or debate on a particular matter all they would have to do is put it before the court and . that would be the end of it, we would, not be allowed to raise it anymore in this House. And I hope that does not happen, Mr.

Speaker, because in trying to rectify a situation we could very easily make it worse. Because those who could afford lawyers would go downtown and hire lawyers. The members who have fat wallets could 8648

December 12, 1983 Tape 3905 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: hire lawyers who say, 'Well, let us lay a charge of slander or libel,even though we know it is not going to hol4, just to shut off the discussion. We do not want to hear any more about it, and once you put it before the court then you will not be allowed to talk about it anymore.' SO~~ HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! -~rn. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if they have taken away the government common room or taken away their offices from them. There seem to be an awful lot of meetings going on over there and,I must say, it is inter­ fering with the decorum of the House, Mr.

Speaker. So, although my colleague made a very valid point, we were very disappointed that members there opposite then started to get personal again in rebuttal to the debate from this side. They cannot seem to stand a recommendation or a good idea or a good suggestion from this side of the House. They cannot stand it! The han. gentleman cannot stand anything that is Liberal! It turns his stomach, Mr. Speaker! And if we score a good debating point on this side of the House,then certain han. gentla~en there opposite resent it, they hate us with a passion!

Some members will even go as far as to say, 'Do not be seen talking to ~hat crowd outside the House!' I have hea~d that. 'You are not talking to him, are you? You are not speaking to hl~? You do not talk to Liberals, do you?' A very strans~ attitude for people to have, Mr. Spe~ke~, indeed! In a democracy, you would expect ~embers ~o be a little more b~oad-minded. You would expect the~~ ~~inking to be of a little h:.gher standard, on ;:;. highe::- :.P!e~. So I ho~e that we debate this matter in a common-se;- .se .,,ay, in a good atmosphere.

That is a ve-:::y valid pcin~, something that should_lSe looked into, something ~11e should not rush into, 8649

December 12, 1983 Tape 3905 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: but something that we should take a good hard look at down the road to see if we can make changes that will improve the situation in this House. I think that is why my colleague raised it the other day and, Mr. Speaker, we expect a favourable reaction from members there opposite and not watch them take advantage of the situation to get up and launch a personal attack on somebody on this side of the House. They are past masters at it! They are artists, real artists! MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: No one·launched a personal attack against the hon. gentleman that was not thoroughly justified. It was thoroughly warranted. As far as I am concerned, he is the reason that this bit of legislation was brought before this hon. House · and, you know, if the cap fits, he has to wear it. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I rule there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: I remind the Chair that this is the third time that the hon. gentleman has broken the rules of the House in the last six or seven minutes. The hon. gentleman cannot stand criticism. Mr. Spea~er, I would put the hon. gentleman in the class of an aristo- crat or a snob. The hon. gentleman look£ down his nose at anybody who is not in the upper echelon. He looks down his nose at these kinds of people, and the hon. gentleman has no reason to do that, Mr. Speaker. 1-IR. HOUSE: Oh _yes! He is pRTnnoid. 8650

December 12 , 1983 Tape 3905 EC - 3 t-1R. NEARY: No, not paranoid, but if you are not in the hon. gentleman's class, if you are not upper -class in the hon. gentleman's eye, then he looks down his nose at you, Mr . Speaker . That is what he is doing during this whole debate . And he does not know the rules of the Rouse. Three times in the last five or six minutes he has gotten up on a point of order on which we did not even have to comment, The Chair said, 'Sorry, there is no point of order. The hon . gentleman just took advantage of the rules to express a point of view .' MR . CARTER: To clarify. MR .

NEARY: Not to clarify , Mr. Sp eaker. I heard the other day the story of why the hon. gentleman got flicked out of Cabinet, \o~hy he got flicked out of Frank Moores ' Cabinet. I do not suppose you could find a more delightful, charming, indiv~dual on the face of this earth than Frank Moores, easygoing , happy -go -lucky , and not a vindictive man. 86 51

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3906 MJ - l MR. NEARY: ~.nd it is a nood thinn ~I:! >:·ras not. :'\ut, Mr. ~TJeco.l{.er, he was forced to throw the member for St. John's North U1r. Carter) out of his Cabinet- and I believe that is a first in this House, too: ,.,e had his colleague who attacked a member's mother-and we had another member there opposite who was flung out of the Cabinet for insulting one of thed~tions. MR- CARTEE: MR. NEARY: ~~"R • . r. :a "Pr;"O"R "P ' MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Not true. Not true? ""':r:- • ~n~r.~lt-g;'7 • The hon. the member for St. John's North on a point of order. MR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, we can allow a certain amount of latitude,and I grant you that the claw marks have been filled in ih ,the former ~tinister of Education's office but, Mr. Speaker, I will not sit here in this House and allow a remark like to stand.I .ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw it. I insulted no denomination ever. MR. SPEAKER: , Order, please! To that point of order, I rule that there is a difference of opinion as to whether an hon. member insulted anyone. ~~ere is no n0int of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ~~- NEARY: That is four times now, Mr. Speaker.

That is four times the hon. member has challenged the Chair, four times the hon. gentleman has been wrong; it has been four times, Mr. Speaker, that he has been told by the Chair there is no point of order. But anv · 7"'!" I am hot going to belabour the point 1 because I think I have said enough, Mr. Speaker, to justify the point my colleague raised the other day, a very valid point, something we should look at, something that we would welcome on this side of the 8652

December l2, 1983 Tape No. 3906 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: House and I do hope that some time in the foreseeable future that there will be steps taken to remedy the problem that my colleague referred to the other day when he was speaking in this debate, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I rise in debate because the Minister of Justice (~tr. Ottenheimer) is not available today and he asked me to respond to a couple of the points that were raised by the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts}. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! If the hon. the minister now speaks 1 he will close the debate. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: ~tr. Speaker, as I say there are just a few points and I shall attempt to be'brief with respect to it. First of all, this is my understanding of the points, I was not listening as closely as my. colleague was,but my colleague briefed me on it on Friday but this is what I understand to be three of the main points made by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. First of all,he asked why the limitation in the act was there.

I am advised that this act is a t:r ·ifcrm act, it is meant to cover every ::·~:·?i::cs c -:):' - well, it :::::.:s not cover every province of Cane: de .. i:;.·.:.-: =.: .::;o!': ;Jrovince has '.. J:rls in it which are the s2.me as ~!'t•" · :.:-c.<.i:l:.:>,'!S of this particular act. It was thought to be "-'iS<l: :::c ~- ~:>? same limi -t:ation periods as well as the same rJ.!es <;.: :! ::~-~ to publications in all provinces of Canada. 8653

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3906 MJ ~ 3 MR. MARSHALL: This decision was arrived at as a result of the meetings of the Ministers of Justice when this particular provision was being considered. So that is the reason why we see the limitation period,set out in the act as it is,of three months and one year from the time a person became aware of the defamation. Another point made by the han. gentleman ~-ms he \<Tant~ to know why there was a definition in the bill that restricts newspapers to being defined as newspapers who are published at least twelve times a year .. I am advised with respect to that, Mr.

Speaker, that the reason for it is is that this bill gives a certain a~ount of protection to legitimate newspapers which are being published on a regular rate. The protection given is given in the area of what is known -I do not want to get into long comments on the law with respect to it;both the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) and the Minister of Justice {Mr. Ottenheimer) exchanged sufficient debate on that-but it does give protections on the basts of the law that applies to 8654

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3907 SD - l MR. MARSHALL: defamation with respect to fair comment. And it was thought that it would be unwise to have that particular protection of fair comment extended to situations where there were 1 say, leaflets being put out by radical groups and what have you,because they could just take advantage of a privilege which is really given mainly in the interest of promulgating free expression of opinion through the newspapers and it is not for the purpose of its having been abused.

So that is the reason why the definition is there, Of course 1~that is not to say that these people promulgating the leaflets would not have the normal protections that are available with respect to law and the normal defences,but not ~nder this particular act. The third point was a little bit difficult to understand. As the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheirner) and I understood the situation, the member for the Strait of Belle :r:sle (_Mr, Roberts)_ was saying that there should be a clause in tn:e bill to the effect that its· provisions would not affect causes of action that had arose prior to January 1st, 1~84, when the act carne into existence. r was · rather astonished tc see that the hon .. member for the Strait of Belle Isle would make such a point because it really is, I think, a quite elemental principle of law to the effect that legislation does not apply retroactively unless indeed the provisions of the legislation decree . it to apply retroactively; otherwise,all law that would pass would upset situations that have occurred in the past.

So it is not just an elemental principle ~f law, it is an elemental princ.:..ple in common sense. I s·.J~pose iE you wa!lt to press :.:::. t·::;. the ridiculous, a taxa-::i::~ :._3.;.; ~-;ould appl:_·. retr-::;actively, •...;.::..,.ess you provide it would no'=, and it would qo ·.~ 1::::k to the beginning of time. So those are the th=ee points, . ~::ose are tr.e answers. The ::1ecessity for uniformity ·- -- - : ~~e the lirnitacion period what it is. The explanation is 8655

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3907 SD - 2 I1:R. MARSHALL: there that the protection of the act is to come to newspapers that publish, as they are defined, at least twelve times a year. And then there was the provision on retroactivity. The only other point that was made was made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) and the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (~r. Roberts) on this matter of legislative immunity.

The only comment which I have with respect to that is that, you know, these are matters of balancing interests and, quite frankly, the way it is now, the way it is supposed to work, obviously it does not work. Certainly nobody denies that people should be protected from libel uttered through the mouths of member in this House, but whether the protection should come from the courts or whether it should come from this House is the question.

It is my opinion that the protection ought to come from the House itself ; With all due respect to the judges of the coursts, and, of course, we all have the greatest of respect for the judges of the courts, I would much prefer that the elected representatives of the people police themselves in such a way that this type of thing does not happen. And I would say that if members of this House had the feeling when they get up to say something that they would be liable for a suit for defamation, there would be an appreciable number of people in this House who would have to be very guarded about what they said.

Now that might be deemed to be an advantage - some people might thing, yes, they should be guarded - but on the other hand, as I say, it comes to a matter of balancing interests, and the members of this House should not be so constricted that they are apprehensive of speaking their mind clearly lest it be greeted by an action through the courts, a court action. And believe you me, 8656

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3907 SD - 3 MR . MARSHALL : I think quite a number of them would follow · ;not necessarily that they will oe well grounded, but anybody thinking that he had a grievance would take an action against the me .m.ber £or Torngat Mountains (.Mr. Warrenl. for some simple thing he may have said which may or may not have oeen lioelous. And I think the way in which this matter should oe decided is the same way when it was set up as envisaged , tnat there should really continue to be immunity to members of this House.

I am not going to get into the long lecture given by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (}1r. Rooerts 1 or the Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Neary). with respect to it 1 there is no point in getting into that .' but the fact of the matter is , it is quite obvious,that in this Kouse anyway · this protection is not taken seriously. So I think, Mr. Speaker, the sanctions are there in the rules of the House. Perhaps \"e need to change the rules of the Bous ·e to make the penalty more specific and more direct when this type of thing occu.rs. But it woUld se.em' to me that there is good 8657

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3908 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: virtue for the argument that elected members of a parliament or a legislature should continue to enjoy immunity, that _ immunity should not be used for the purpose of defaming people but, if it should be done, then the House has the remedy in its own hands. So those are the four remarks, !-f_r.

Speaker, I am making in closing the bill on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) 1and I have much pleasure in moving second reading of this bill which has been quite extensively debated and is one that the Minister of Justice has brought in after a great deal of work and a great deal of thought by himself and his - I do not like the word 'counterparts,' I do not think there is a counterpart of our Minister of Justice in Canada, but_, yes, we can call them his counterparts in the other provinces because they are not Liberals. I think we can call them counterparts.

But,anyway,it represents a significant piece of legislation , Mr. Speaker, as so many of the pieces of legislation that have been brought in in this Fall session are,-desuite the way they are being decried by hen. member~ . OCPJsite. Now there will be certain pieces of housekeeping legislation that will come up , certainly, but that is necessary.But ,by and large, all the bills that have passed this House and will come are bills of substance that are here for a reason and are here for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland and this Defamation Act is one such example • I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Defamation," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 70) 8658

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3908 ah-2 Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Housing Corporation Act 1 " (Bill No. 4) MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Development. MR. WINDSOR: The han. Minisber of Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this legislation which is quite simple and straightforward. Basically all this bill does is expand the membership of the board .of directors of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation by one person and that person to be a representative of the physically disabled in thP. ProvincP..

This fulfills the commitment that I made to groups concerned with the care and the welfare of physically disabled persons in our Province during the International Year of the Disabled. In accordance \'l'i th thi::> cor:rrni tment I am therefore very pleased to bring forward this minor amendment to the Act which will provide that physically disabled persons will be represented on the board.

I might add as well that the corporation,over the past number of years,has given due consideration to the needs of such persons and we are making every eff<::rt and being conscious of the need of providing housing, both in our economic rental units but primarily in our public housing units which are designed to accomodate persons who are handicapped,particularly those who are in wheelchairs and who require special care.

So we have made efforts over the pas~ r.umber of years ~o accomodate these people and to be very much a·..:a::e of their needs and this particular piece ~= legislation goes one step further in ensuring that in order for ~:s to carry on with that line of thought and to enstire that we have 8659

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3908 ah-3 MR.WINDSOR: accurate information and advice on such issues t.hat we have a representative of those people on the board of directors. So it gives me great pleasure to move second reading. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Before I recognize the hen. m~er,it gives me great pleasure to welcome to our House of Assembly on behalf of all members today Mayor Frank Marsh and a delegation from the Garnish town council from the district of Grand Bank. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKElt: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we are going to support this bill to have a physically handicapped person appointed to the board of the Newfoundland and L.abrador Housing Corporation. I thought,Mr. Speaker ., that we may open up the debate a little bit on the sQbject. I do not know whether this is the time to do it or not,but I notice here lately 8660

December 12, 1983 Tape 3909 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: that there are an awful lot of ads appearing in the newspapers for houses that are being offered for sale by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. I can only assume , Mr. Speaker, not being privy to the information of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,I can only assume that these are houses that are repossessed by the government. And I am wondering if the hon. gentleman could tell us, wh§m he is clos.:!.ng second reading of the debate, why we are seeing so many Newfoundland and Labrador housing units offered for sale .in recent days?

What is the reason behind it? How many units have been repossessed· in the , say, last ·year or so? That would be an interesting figure for us to have, Mr. Speaker~ And would the han. gentleman tell us also in establishing a rental base for the rental of their properties which is calculated on the gross income of a tenant, does the corporation make any allowances in adjusting the monthly rent under special circumstances of a tenant who may have , for instance, unusua~ly high expenses because of a health or a medical problem in the family?

I am thinking of a kind of expense that could affect drastically the monthly income the tenant earns. So could the hon. gentleman give us the answer to these two questions, Mr. Speaker? I do not know if my colleagues have anything to say on this matter , but these are the only two questions that I have to ask. We have a lot of things to say about housing in t~is Province when we get an opportunity to debate housing, Mr. Speaker, in a more comprehensive way, we will be doing so because we think the whole thing is a shambles a ·- complete shambles.

But I do not think this is the time to do it while we are debating this bill. : merely would like to have the answer to these two questions, Mr. Speaker. I will just repeat them for the benefit of the hon . . gentleman. I think he has 8661

December 12, 1983 Tape 3909 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: made a note there. How many houses have been repossessed in the last_year and are these the ones that are being offered for sale in the newspapers? And is it the procedure of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to calculate a tenant's monthly rent after they take into consideration a severe health or medical problem that may exist in the family that would drastically affect their income? I wonder if the hon. gentleman could give us the answer to these questions? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. member for Torngat Mr.

Speaker, I want to add an extra question for the minister to answer in closing the debate. First I agree with my han. 90lleague,we are also in favour of having a disabled person on the Board. Will there be a member dropped from the Board to make room for this person or will this be an extra person on the Board? And if so, in coming tb voting procedures,is there an odd number now on the Board or can the minister tell us exactly the number of the people that is presently on the Board, including this disabled person?

The minister did say that they were quite concerned for some time, and it was his intention to have a disabled person sitting on this Board. I miqht add ~lso to the minister that I believe the credit here does not go to the minister or to this government;the credit goes to Mr. Doug Vickers and the Disabled Association in the Province. Those are the people who have made numerous representations to this government for improvements,improvements in access to commerical buildings as well as improvements to buildings that a=e leased by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing to assist:the disabled people.

So I think the credit should go to the people who have taken the ini~iative to suggest 1 to the minister and his 8662

December 12, 1983 Tape 3909 PK - 3 MR. WARREN: officials, change§ in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Act .by appointing a member of the disabled _ 8663

December 12, 1983 Tape 3910 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: people in this Province on the board, I think it is a step in the right direction, and hopefully many other things will happen in the minister's department that will greatly help and assist the handicapped people in this Province. Again, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) did mention about the number of houses that are for sale. As recently as last week, three of my constituents had their houses taken back by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, which left some eighteen members of the family without proper housing.

With all due respect to the minister's department I believe those three families were given every benefit of the doubt to pay up. I am just wondering if there are other cases throughout the Province where individual families owe so much money to the minister's department, as, for example, those three families did? It takes so long for action to be taken. I understand that the minister's department referred to the courts way back last Spring, and it took the courts some six months to act in those three individual cases.

Subsequently, instead of being thrown out of the houses in June or July or August when the weather was more suitable, they were thrown out in the middle of the Winter in sub-zero weather with five or six feet of snow on the ground. So I am just wondering if there are many other people throughout Newfoundland and Labrador who are given as much leeway as those three families were given? In all fairness to the minister, I admit we would probably kick about it if we heard talk every day of people being kicked out of their houses.

But then again, I have to pay for my house, and i= ~~e means are there then surely goodness those people living in Newfoundland and Labrador 8664

December 12, 1983 Tape 3910 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: homes should be liable also to pay their rent or their mortgage, whatever the case may be, on at least a reasonable basis. At least they should make every effort. Probably the minister will state there are a lot of people renting from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing who are probably taking the corporation for a ride, just getting in there and staying in there as long as they possibly can.

I suggest to the minister that maybe those three families in Nain in my district were given all the rope that they could use, were probably given too much leeway, so perhaps the minister .should tighten things up. It is government money, it is taxpayers' money, so I suggest that probably the courts should be asked to process these cases faster. With these few remarks, Mr. Speaker, we support the bill. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. HODDER: The han. the member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to add a few words to the comments which were made by my colleagues.

Of course, as other members who have spoken have indicated, I too support this legislation and compliment the minister on it. I just would like to ask a question, which maybe the minister can answer and maybe he cannot, but I have noticed throughout the Province in the last few years a lot of the public buildings, both federal and provincial, particularly the new ones, have made access easier and made efforts to accommodate those people >V'ho are :1andicapped or use wheel chairs or other devices to ge~ around. 8665

Decerooer 12, 1983 Tape 3911 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: But I am not sure under whi9h .depa~tment this type of · legislation- there must be some l~glslatioil that backs it Up - comes under. Every once in a while you are in some establishment where you run across what you might consider a dangerous step and it is readily noticable that handicapped people would have difficulty navigating 1and sometimes it is dangerous to an ordinary person, much less someone who is handicapped, is in a wheelchair or other device, as I say.

I would just like to ask the minister or any other minister on the other side of the House who might comment on this, _because,particularly in privately owned buildings and privately owned business establishments such as hotels, stores and that sort of thing, the same move does not seem to have been made by government to accommodate handicapped people. And I would ask the minister when he stands to close the debate, or other ministers over there who could tell me,just exactly what the government is doing to rectify this type of situation in the private establishments in the Province? MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): If the hon. the minister now speaks he will close the debate. Development. MR. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, just to very briefly respond to some of the questions asked. The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) asked a question relating to a number of ads advertising houses for sale. I would say that some of these houses that are being sold are houses that have been re­ claimed, no doubt for lack of payment~ others are units 8666

December 12, 1983 Tape 3911 EC - 2 MR. WINDSOR: which are no longer required by the Corporation. They may have been units which we were administering for staff of other departments of government, perhaps doctors or nurses or teachers in rural Newfoundland or whatever, and no longer are these houses required and we might be disposing of them. But certainly some of them at least would be houses which have been repossessed. r-"..R. NEARY: About how many? MR. WINDSOR: I do not have an exact number. I would suggest,though, r1r •.

Speaker, that in view of the large portfolio that we do have across this Province, that the number of houses repossessed is extremely low. I think the han. gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) was quite accurate when he said that in fact, if we err, it is on the side of the homeowner in that we are probably much too lenient in taking legal action -and having these tenants removed for the obvious reason; Mr.

Speaker, we are most hesitant to turn somebody from his home, in some cases to have him lose any of the equ.ity tl1at he might have put into the home, and he may not have alternate accommodation available to him. I would be quite prepared to say that in every case that I have had a request to look into and that I have looked at personally, I have been more than satisfied that the Corporation has gone the extra mile and has given this person ever¥ possible opportunity. And, as I said, if we are at fault, we have probably been much too lenient and probably should have taken action much earlier.

Anc I ~~ talking about people who are in arrears on mcr~sages as ~uch as S5,0CQ and S6,000 a~d $7,000 before ~hey are - MR. WARREN: sa,ooo . .MR. WINDSOR: l'hat is right, $8,000 is certainly not impossible . ..... ...... , ... -,. ,,. ... -- ' - t..; •..;:

December 12, 1983 Tape 3911 EC - 3 MR. WINDSOR: So I think at that point in time, Mr. Speaker, it certainly is appropriate for us to take action . We would always consider the circumstances involved in the family. If it is a short-term problem, if a person has been normally gainfully 8668

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3912 ah-1 MR. WIND SOR: employed and has normally been a very consistent payer of mortgage fees and is now going through an unusual time, If there has been an illness or if the person is unem~loyed but it would certainly appear that he or she would expect to be employed again in the near future,we certainly use a great deal of leniency, But in many cases it becomes obvious to us that this person just does not intend to pay the mortgage and obviously the taxpayers of this Province should not be supporting that kind of person.

Tbthehon.gentlernan's second question, the basis for determining the rent paid is on the gross family income, Mr. Speaker. We cannot consider special circumstances such as medical problems or other special costs that a family may be involved in. That is a situation which must be,and quite properly should be dealt with by other departments of governrnent 1 such as the Department of Social Services , for instance. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is not a social agency.

We are a landlord, we operate housing stock in this Province on behalf of governrnen~ basically on a cost re~overy basis in accordance with the federa/provincial programmes. We do not have any mechanism or any programme which allows us to consider such things as the individual problems of a family. These are more properly addressed by the Department of Social Services and such other agencies 1 which in many cases do provide funds.

In fact,in many of our public housing units,and in our rural and remote housing unit$, a great portion of wha~ is paid to the corporation is paid by the Department of Social Services on behalf of their clients. 8662

December 12,1983 MR. HODDER: permit a question? MR.WINDSOR: MR. HODDER: Tape No. 3912 'VJould ~he _pinister Yes. If Newfoundland and ( Labrador Housing is not a social agency,why does Newfoundland and Labrador Housing get into the type of housing they are in? For instance,I can see no reason why Newfoundland and Labrador Housing should be in the tvoe of business that Private enterprise can readily do, I see no reason why they should be in that type of business.

For instance,I think in terms of,say 1 Fort Pepperrel~ or the Harmon Complex or the complex in Goose Bay, ah-2 Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is now in a situation where they are doing the work of private enterprise, but perhaps not as efficiently.I would agree that if it were a social agency,and these apartments were for the disadvantaged,,then I can see government being in it, but I see no reason for it being in there if it is only doing the job of private enterprise. MR.WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his question because it gives me an opportunity to explain just a little bit about the difference in housing programmes that the corporation does have. As it relates to social housing 1 let me try to clarify here that we do have a social programme in that public housing or social housing is indeed a social programme,but it is by way of a pre-deternined programme under a federal/provincial agreement. We do not have the flexibility to look after short-term needs and special needs of individuals.

Our prograrr~e is a subsidy programme geared to the gross income of the family unit 1 8670

December 12,1983 Tape No. 3912 ah-3 MR. WINDSOR: that is required and so anything over and above that daily needs of the individuals is something that must be addressed by the Department of Social Services or some other agency. So that is what I mean when I say we are not a social agency. We are providing social housing,but it is in accordance with a firmly pre-defined programme with set rules and regulations under the 'federal/provincial agreement. The hon. gentleman is referring to what we would normally call our economic housing units.

These are not subsidized units; these are units such as we see in Goose Bay or in Stephenville or in Pleasantville or in Churchill Park. These are economic rental units which are on a full cost recovery basis. There are a number of reasons why government,or the Housing Corporation on behalf of government has been involved in these. Certainly it is quite obvious,! am sure ~hat when the facilities at Goose Bay were turned over to government 1therefore we operate them; the facilities at Harmon were turned over to government,therefore we have been operating them.

I would agree with him that we should not be competing with private enterprise where there is clearly no need for the Housing Corporation to be involved,ana that is precisely why we are selling units in Goose Bay, we are selling units in Stephenville; many of t~ese 9conc~~c rental units are for sale a..''ld many have been S·:lla. Jl..nd I think I announced recem:ly when : '-Tas i:l Gcose Bay that an additional fair n~~er of chase ~nits ~c~:d in fact now be put en ":.he ~ar:-;et as .!. : bec::nres fe3si:::e to do so.

In some case whe.:::e ycu have un:.:t.s that :-:a• -·e ·::ornmon services 1 such as one centra: heating syste~ ar.d one central electrical system,it is very difficult to that unless you 8671

December 12, 1983 Tape No, 3913 MJ- l MR. WINDSOR: sell a block as an apartment block. You cannot sell them as individual units. But in the case of Stephenville,we have identified a considerable number of units, ~ainl~' the duplex units that are there, manv of ~ru~1 na..r have been sold and many are available for sale, in the first instance to the present tenants, if that tenant wishes to purchase the unit then he may purchase it; if that tenant moves out,then we have the option of putting that unit on the open market.

Never will we ask a tenant to vacate because we wish to sell that unit; we have not, and have no intention of doing so. But, Mr. Speaker, generally speaking why would government therefore be involved in economic housing? The first reason is just that, that we inherited those units and we have been operating _ them and providing rental accommodation in areas where perhaps private enterprise would not be interested in providing such accommodation. Once we have identified a real need by the private sector,then certainly government should move away from it and allow the private sector to do it. The second reason, Mr.

Speaker, is to provide a levelinq effect on rents. If you leave private rental accommodation to the private sector,and if there is a very severe shortage of rental accommodation, then indeed the private sector has a monopoly and you will find a great deal of pressure for rents to increase. So by having an economic rental stock,government is in fact providing some leveling effect en undue increases of rent. Of course, the Residential Tenancies Board has a similar function, Mr. Speaker, and there is some arguments to be said for that. !·fP_. •-7_"1\ op_:p~T ; MR. WINDSOR: How many members on the board now.

There are now ten members on the board. If the hon. gentleman had read the explanatory note 1 8672

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3913 . MJ - 2 MR. WINDSOR: his question, I•-Tould. t~is Se em · additional !'H':Iber? 1 ,,,'SulCI. :>e anst -:oered. ':':1.e not.~ ::;a•J[;, •··Till ,.,rovifl.e for an appointment of an additional member . 1 That is the whole purpose of this legislation, to increase the number of members on the Board of Directors from ten persons to eleven and to ensure that one of those persons will be a representative of the physically disabled in the Province. So that is the answer to that hon. gentleman's first question. Credit for disabled persons, should perhaps go to the Hub and Mr.

Vickers. ~nd certainly, Mr. Speaker, let me be the first to congratulate Mr. Vickers, who is a constituent of the great historic district of Mount Pearl,on the job that he and his colleagues are doing on behalf of handicapped persons in this Province~ I certainly concur with the hon. gentleman's remarks in that regard. But I would 1however,say, Mr. Speaker, that this corporation has made great strides in the past number of years to provide housing that is suitable for the physically disabled. We do now have a considerable number of units that are designed specifically for handicapped persons.

In fact, we have gone one step further and we are encourag~ng 1 for example, groups whi .ch are building homes under the co-operative housing programme, which is a federal programme, nevertheless we do provide assistance from time to time,and one of the first, if not the first- perhaps the second- co-op housing development that was undertaken in this Province, unde~en, again, in . -Mount Pearl, I think three of those units are bungalow units, most of them are semidetached duplex units but three of those units in fact are b:.mgalow -unit s :.;-hi.ch are clearly designed for h?ndicap]~d ~e~sons and in fact are now owned and occupi' d under ~~~~ ?rogra~~e by handicapped persons.

So I would sug~~s t, :~ .!." . 5:::-"'aker, althou gh I recoqnize full well the cc)<':-t::-:.':;: ..:--:::.:..- ~ade by the groups~ that we ~a7 e in the past been . . - ~a- ""~:..:1g t :;r:- ~· .:··!:GOUS effots to help these 8~73

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3913 f.IJ - 3 MR •. WINDSOR: persons as well; and this piece of legislation.is just another indication of ou:r;.concern in that regard. The hon. the gentleman from Torngat MOUntains (Mr. Warren) asked me are firms other than individuals given the same amount of latitude •. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that wherever it is deemed appropriate gove .rnment takes whateve~ · action is required to recover amounts that are owed to it. But I would· suspect 1 as I indicated earlier,that we are probably a little more lenient on these private individuals than we might be on firms who are in arreas obviously because they have no intention of paying it. 8674

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3914 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: The hon. gentleman for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder)_ asked ;me about t.he Accessibility Act, T.hat was a piece of legislation that was put through this hon. House, I think a year or two years ago 1 which now requires all public buildings over a certain size 1 and residential units, apartment buildings in particular, which have greater than a certain number of units and which are greater than two stories in height, as I recall, to have accessibility~ in other words, that they be designed to accommodate persons who are handicapped.

I think that is a tremendous and a veryfar-seein~ piece of legislation. I think it is of great advantage to handicapped persons in this Province and I think it is probably in fact one of the best pieces of legislation of its kind anwwhere in Canada, It does not necessarily deal with present situations.

It is designed primarily to deal with new construction,although in many cases government bui.ldings,when renovations are being undertaken, are now being redes·igned certainly with the Accessibility Act in mind- And,in fact 1 0wners of private buildings are complying with the spirit of this act and are, in fact, making renovations so that their building is much more accessible to the physically · handicapped. MR. NEARY: ¥1ho is responsible for that? MR. WINDSOR: I think that is under Consumer Affairs. It would be either Consumer Affairs or Public Works:.

I think it i:s Consumer Affairs that the Accessibility _i;.ct comes under. DR. COLLINS: Labour and Man?ower, 1! .~. tUNDSOR: Labour and I1a~?ower, sorry, right, --- colleague. is correct. It is unde::- the Depar"':ment of La!Jour 'L'd Manpower under th .e Safety Division. So, Mr. Speaker, with those ':e'tl remarks it gi:ves me great pleasure. indeed to move second :eading. 8675

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3914 so~ 2 On motion, a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Housing Corporation Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave, (Bill No. 41. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Livestock (Health.l Act"'. (Bill, No, 22L MR. SPEAKER (Russelll: The han. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: HR. TULK:. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 22.~ You have one hour. One hour,.

This is a very minor amendment and hopefully it will not take an hour that the han. gentleman from Fogo suggests-. But the act itself, the Lives·tock CHealthl Act regulates· the movement of livestock into the Provi:nce. And for the purposes of controlling the transmis·sion of diseases, we want to I:edefi:ne the word ''livestock •· . Apparently it is not broad enough. at this point in time to encompass dogs, cats· and s·pecies of wild animals. And w·±th. that, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. MR. NE.P..RY: MR. SPE.P..KER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hen. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, here is a heavy piece of legislation now1 I tell you. Here we are about twelve days before Christmas in session and what kind of legislation, Mr. Speaker, are we talking about? We are talking about a bill, "An Act To Amend The Livestock (H'ealthL Act". Now if we wanted to ~e could have a lot of fun with this bill. We cc>uld say· that this bill is very descriptive of the administration. In this act they are def~ning '·livestock~ aa horses, mules, asses, swine, sheep, goats, fowls, ducks, geese, turkeys - MR. SH1..111S: Liberals. MR.

NEARY: Tories•and other useful domestic anima1s;and any animal of the bovine 8676

December 12, 1983 Tape 3915 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: species,by whatever name known•and farm-bred fur-bearing . I animals:'Mr. Speaker, a true description if I ever saw one of the adrninistra tion there opposite :. But we are getting into the Christmas spirit so we are not going to be unkind to han. gentlemen, Mr. Speaker. We could poke a lot of fun at them if we wanted to on this bill. The only thing I want to say about it is that it is not the heaviest piece of legislation ever brought before this House.

The administration there opposition for a month now have been forcing the Opposition to debate bills mostly of a housekeeping nature. They have refused to debate the.llorrible· state of the Newfoundland and Labrador economy. They would prefer to talk about mules and asses and turkeys than they would about the Newfoundland and Labrador economy. MR. WARREN: It is Christmas, and turkeys. MR. NEARY: 'That is right. The only justification they can have for bringing this bill in, Mr.

Speaker, at this particular point in time is that we are going to be here until Christmas anyway and we will all be able to eat our turkey knowing that it is free from disease, Mr. Speaker. So here we are, the administration refus -ing debate on the incredible financial mess in this Province;instead they would prefer to talk about goats, Mr. Speaker. And when it comes to jobs for young people,they would rather talk about horses and swine than they would about creating jobs for young people .in this Province. Mr.

Speaker, they have refused to talk about t!"le pain and s~ffer:.!'lg they 21a•re caused. to : the sick people ·.in this Pr ·.)Vince ! t:.e:t refused to ':.alk about tha~but they have elected instead ~c ~alk about farm-brea fur- 8677

December 12, 1983 Tape 3915 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: bearing animals. They have refused to talk about the only issue in the last election, namely an offshore agreement. Instead of talking about that and telling us when they are going to deliever on that promise, Mr. Speaker, instead of talking about that - MR. MORGAN: Never mind that! Get down to work! MR. NEARY: - they would prefer to talk about mules. Mules, Mr. Speaker. ·Mules.

I can say one thing, if there is ever an administration in this world, if there is ever an administration elected in this Province that knows about mules and asses and swine and sheep and goats and ducks and turkeys, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: We sure do! Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - it is most appropriate~ Mr. Speaker, it is most appropriate that this administration should be the ones to amend the Livestock Act to include all of the animals that I just mentioned. It is very appropriate indeed, Mr.

Speaker, not because we are getting near Christmas, because if there was ever an administration elected in Newfoundland that is an expert on mules and asses and swine and sheep and goats and turkeys it is hon. gentlemen there opposite. They are the experts, Mr. Speaker. MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: The farmers would not agree. The farmers might not say it but the people of Newfoundland would say it. MR. TULK: 1 Steve 1 , go right through their ranks and find one example of each. 8678

December 12, 1983 Tape 3915 PK - 3 MR . NEARY: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I think you could start up in the upper end of the House, work your way down towards the rail, and you will find a horse, certainly you would find one end of a horse, y.ou would find mules and asses and swine and sheep and goats - MR. HODDER: MR . NEARY: MR. HODDER: MR . NEARY: 8679 And turkeys. And turkeys .. Mostly turkeys. Mostly turkeys, Mr. Speaker.

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3916 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: There is no doubt about it that hon. gentlemen there opposite are the most qualified to bring in such

an act. I do not know what category I would put th~ r.overnrnent House Leader. (l-1r. Marshall) under here. A~~ liON. MEMBER: Frogs. MR. NEARY: No, we do not have frogs. I do not know what category we would put the hon. gentleman in. I would not say under bovine species, that '.'lOuld be heinq very unkind to the hon. gentleman. But they are certainly well equipped down there and they have the qualifications and they are the experts, Mr. Speaker, and if it was not getting so near Christmas, and I was not in such a charitable mood, Mr. Speaker - S~:rm I-ION. !-1:Gf.'BgRS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: - I could poke all kinds of fun at hon. gentlemen there opposite over this bill. MR. WARREN: Here is 'Haiq'. MR. NEARY: The member for Harbour Grace, what would he fit under? He would fit under not "mules", no, turkey. He would probably fit under the category of a turkey. MR. WARREN: No, reptile. MR. NEARY: No, we do not have reptiles here. So, Mr. Speaker, we are going to whole-heartedly support the bill. We congratulate the experts - MR. TULK: Any skunks, 'Steve'? MR. NEARY: - no, no skunks here. The hon. gentleman left out a few.

As a matter of fact we are sort of tempted to amend this legislation to say,•horses, mules, asses, swine, sheep, goats, fouls, ducks, geese, turkeys, and Tories. 1 MR. MORGAN: &~d Liberals. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour may not accept the amendment. So, Mr. Speaker, I think some of 8680

December 12, 1983 Tape ~to. 3916 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: my colleagues may wish to speak on this bill which indicates the priorities of the administration. They will talk about anything under the sun. They will talk about mules and asses and turkeys, but they will not talk about the economy. They will not talk about an offshore agreement, they do not want to see or hear tell of it. They will not talk about all the pain and suffering and anguish they have caused the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, instead they want to talk about something as silly as the things that we see in this bill.

But,as I said,I have to congratulate them and, Mr. Speaker, the reason I congratulate them is because there is no other administration in our whole history, no other Premier,and I believe we have had twenty-seven or twenty­ eight premiers and prime ministers in this Province, no other gentleman is more qualified and more competent to introduce a bill in this House referring to mules and asses and swine and sheep and goats and turkeys as the han. gentleman that heads up this administration. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to say a few words concerning this bill. I notice that fish or reptiles are not included in the new act. I am just wondering, only just recently a man from Sunnyside re~eived some fruits or vegetables or something from the Southern part of the United States and in one of the containers ther·a •.vas a reptile. There 'i'•c.s a reptile in one of those cc:t":.air:.ers. S0~1E !oON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 8681

December 12, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. WARREN: Tape No. 3916 NM - 3 Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Fisheries would just close his littl .e trapper there for a few minutes. Mr.

Speaker, I believe if the minister is going to bring in such a major bill 1 I think the least he should do is try to cover reptiles because I think, as th .is gentleman in sunnyside found out, he discovered a very interesting object in a case of bananas a while ago and it was diagnosed as soxp.e sort of a reptile. llowever, at the same time the new act will mean instead of using all the names of the different kinds of species it is going to be consolidated int .o two or three words meaning wild animals q,p.d birds. Now, Mr .. Speaker, I know it is a bit difficult for the wild animals 8682

December 12, 1983 Tape 3917 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: to get to the Island portion of the Province Province because it is separated by some sixty miles of water. However, I do not think those sixty miles of water would bother the birds too much. If he is ~-oing to include birds, I would suggest that probably he could confine his remarks to a number of species of birds. 'Whether captive or not' - now, maybe the minister could explain that, whether someone is going to bring i~ in in a cage or whether it is going to fly in.

Now, if it flies in, I do not think the minister has much jurisdiction over where it lands or how it flies in. )~ile speaking on the Livestock Act, Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the minister - I am sure the minister is aw·are of it, but 'maybe some of this colleagues are not aware of it - of the terrible regulations, the ridiculous regulations that are imposed on Labradorians in order to send even their pet dog or their pet cat out to the Island portion of the Province for examinations by veterinar- ians.

About a month ago, an individual from my hen. colleague's district, because there was no veterinarian service in the area, was obliged to send his dog to Gander for necessary exam~nation by a veterinarian and for medication, and this gentleman was compelled to pay $59.40 to send a five pound live animal from C~ose Bay to Gander Nhile 1at the same time, Eastern Provincial Airways could send an animal of the same weight from Gander to Toronto for o~l1 half that cost.

MR • S Il-'LV:S : ·:as ::hat EPA? ~1R • :~ARREN: E?~, yes, and whether ~t was ~~= Canada or whomever - I do not care which airline it was - : ~hi~k it is ridiculous and another discrimination that the L.::.:Cr:..:.:-:::::- portion of the ?:.-evince has to encounter. B ~"''"'"" c;::.;

December 12, 1983 Tape 3917 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: Furthermore, I would suggest to the minister, and I am sure he would agree, that the population of Happy Valley - Goose Bay and surrounding areas does warrant a full-time veterinary service now. About four or five years ago there was evidence of rabies amongst the animals in Labrador and subsequently, anyone transporting his pet from Labrador to the Island was required to have the animal examined and inoculated.

I would think the minister, by this time, should have an up-to-date report on the rabies situation and, if rabies are no longer in evidence, maybe it would not be necessary for Labrador residents to go to the trouble of having their pets inoculated before sending them to the Island. MR. SIMMS: - That is a good topic for Provincial Affairs on Saturday night. MR. WARREN: Well, Mr. Speaker, speaking of Provincial Affairs, I would suggest to the hon. the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Simms) - I learned he watched me with intense interest about two weeks ~go - that he should watch the programme again this Saturday night and I will give him a good example of how this 8684

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3918 IB-1 MR. WARREN: government has ruined the lives of Newfoundlanders. By all means,look at television again this Saturday night after the hockey game and I am sure the minister will gather that there will be a lot of common sense spoken. By the way, Mr. Speaker ," I will not be on Provincial Affairs, one of my colleagues will. I just want to let the minister know. However, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that I was distracted by the hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms). Again, Mr. Speaker, as my colleague said, there is an example, ~:r: -~ _§eei3.ker, he is just actin~ like an as~ . Mr.

Speaker, in closing naturally we are going to support this bill. Let us hope that the minister when he stands up and closes the debate will try to illustrate the discriminatory action of the airlines and of this government as it pertains to Labrador people who have pets and want to bring them to the Island portion of the Province, for there are restrictions in place at the present time. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, if this livestock act is going to cover cats and dogs- as the minister says, it is going to cover cats and dogs- maybe in due course the minister could include an amendment to the bill making it mandatory for. all councils in the _Province,whether they are incorporated or ncn-in~orporated - there could be local improve~ent districts, ~~ere are several of them in the Province - make it mandatory that every single individual council or improvement district in the Province would have a dog control act. Fo= example, ~ :~-:- ::,~J

December 12, 1983 Tape 3918 IB-2 MR. WARREN: now,at the present time, there are a lot of towns and districts in the Province that do not have any dog control acts and they are becoming a nuisance. So maybe the minister could, in due course, make it compulsory that all elected councils, communities would make it compulsory to have a dog control act, so that not only would you protect the species of cats and dogs but you would also protect the most valuable species, and that is you and me. I will support the bill, Mr. Speaker. I{R. SPEAl<ER (RUSSELL) : speaks now he closes the debate.

MR. ~OUDIE: If the hon. minister Well, Mr. Speaker, under th~t scathing attack I am not sure whether I should try and deal with all of the points raised or not. However, I shall try. The han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. · Ne;!~ry)_, I think, was referr~ng to disease-free turkey, that we could take consolation in the fact that we would be able to dine upon disease free turkey for Christmas. That really does not come under this particular act. Although I suppose I would be fair in speculating that the han.

Leader of the Opposition will probably dine on disease-free turkey this Christmas, no doubt well stuffed with Mount Scio savoury. I<i.R. NEARY: I was going to say I do not know if I could eat that savoury or not. MR. GOUDIE: think so. MR. NEARY: I would most certainly You cannot depend on that 1 • it might be full of ground glass. MR. GOUDIE: He also read off the definition of livestock and indicated that it referred to certain or all hon. ladies and gentlemen on this side of the House when referring to mules, asses, swine and geese 8686

Dece.mber 12, 1,983 Tape No. 3918 IB-3 MR. GOUDIE: and so on. One of the reasons, Mr. Speaker, for the redefining of the word 'livestock' under this particular legislation is to include a couple of particular animals which may or may not be rese.mbled by hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. Just as examples 1there are skunks and racoons. I just thought I would mention that. 8687

December 12, 1983 MR. SIHl'1S: MR. GOUDIE: throw it in. Tape No. 3919 so - 1 That is not a bad description. Well 1 I just thought I would The gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). suggested that I should in some way or other ensure that town councils 1 be they a local improvement district, whatever the definition might be, should have a Dog Control Act. The Dog Control Act as it exists provincially comes under the responsibility of my department,and obviously it is a provincialmatter. Butas I unde·rstand it,subject to correction by my colleague,the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook) 1 each municipality, I' believe, has the power or can be empowered to adopt their own regulations within their own town. So obviously I do not have any direct input into that. But there were a couple of other questions. I think the gentleman from ~orngat Mountains suggested I institute some kind of regulation concerning veterinarians in Labrador, or at least deal with that matter. In terms of my responsibility, Hr. Speaker, is impossible for me in that dealing with veterinarians in the Province I only have the authority to deal with. veterinarians as· it relates to the agricultural industry.

When it comes· to pets and that kind of thing,then that is a different item all together and is, I suppose, dictated by the profession itself. They set up wherever they feel they can make money · and there is a veterinarian who visits occasionally Labrador. But in terms· of ministerial responsibility 1 I have none i.n that regard. In relation to rabies, the gentleman, if I understood him correctly, suggested that the regulation governing t~e need for certification for Labrador 8688

December 12, 1~83 Tape No. 3919 SD - 2 MR. GOUDIE: huskies when moving them from Labrador to the Island part of th .e Province, or any other part of Canada 1 not require certification. That is all well and good if you look at that breed of dog only. But I just need to remind the hon. gentleman 1 I am sure , for the need for that kind of regulation s-till in that three years ago there was an outbreak of rabies in w-ild animals in Labrador and then that disease in turn got into some domestic animals.

And in concluding the debate and moving second readin~ perhaps I' can just tell of a very brief incident which occurred in Hopedale three years ago. I was in th .e community of Nain working on this problem of rabies in wild and domestic animals, and it was all brough .t to our attention when two orothers in Nai.n skinned a wolf which. had been rabied and cut th.emselves and they went through a rather painful twenty-one days of inoculation, etc. DR. TivOMEY : Do you know what the treatment •is for rabies? MR. GOUDIE: Yes, exactly.

But during the two or three. days r was in Davis Inlet 1 we also had a report from H:opedale that a domestic cat there had contacted rabies and we in turn sent a message to H:opedale asking that the carcass be forwarded to Davis Inlet and we could in turn forward it to the laboratory at Sackville for analysis and see if the domestic cat indeed did have rabies. We . were somewhat surprised about three hours later when we received a mess-age from the owner of the cat which supposedly had rabies wh~ch. said, 'Sorry, unable to forward cat. Shot with twelve gauge -toe ·:lose'. I ::1cve second reading,. Mr.

SSJeaker. ~ :.:otic:-;, a bi•ll, "An Act To Amend The · Livest:ock ::ne'C .. : :: -., A:;-:. .-.::.-...;:; ~ ... ._a._ - second time, ordered referred to a :c:71..-ni-::: -::~ ··-= :-: -:he . •c: ;;- iT-:-. ·1se presently by leave. Q3ill NO. 22) ..

__L December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3919 SD - 3 Motion, second readino o£ a bill, "An Ac_t To Amend The Natural Products Marketing Act, 1973''. (Bill No. 23). MR. SPEAKER C:Ayl\-1ard): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricult -ural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This one is much more significant than the piece of legislation that just went through and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Nearyi will be gratified about that. rt deals with two matters, Mr. Speaker, the amendments that we want to enact here.and one has to do with the appo.i:ntn\ent of mentbers to various commodity boards. Usually· boards are comprised of 8690

December 12, 1983 Tape 3920 PK - 1 MR. GOUDIE: both farmer and non-farmer members,depending on the board itself. Some farmer commodity organizations have made the suggestion to me,and to government through me,that rather than I as minister appointing all members to a board,that their representative, that is , the representative of a farming community or the argicultural community, if you will, be appointed to the board through election of their own peers.

And one amendment would allow that to happen.I could appoint certain members and other members,although appointed by government,would be appointed after they had been recommended through an election process by their own peers in whichever commodity it is which·is regulated by a given board. And the other proposed amendment to the Natural Products Marketing Act deals with the setting up of stablization funds.

And just to explain briefly,some han. members may be aware that the hog industry and the broiler producing industry is in a little bit of a difficult situation rig.ht now, in that the price of feed and the cost of transporting feed,etc.,has gotten so high that Newfoundland Farm Products in purchasing the various products cannot justify paying the price which is needed to cover the costs of producing pork or chickens or whatever. And you, Mr.

Speaker, are fully aware of . that personally in your own district. · So the suggestion has been made for some time that a stablization fund should be established whereby producers in good times can ccntribu~e into a fund which can be drawn upon during bac ::.:..= •:s to he.:..;;> =arry them over,rather ;:han gc:vernment having -::.) -;;i:':er a d.:..::-ect subsi::iy all along the way. And without getting into great de~ail about 8691

December 12, 1983 Tape 3920 PK - 2 MR. GOUDIE: the make up of a stablization fund, it is possible that the federal and provincial governments can have financial input into such a fund as well. But these are the two amendments that we propose, Mr. Speaker, and I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if we are going to support the bill or not. One

section of it, the stablization programme, yes, by all means we support that part of it. But before we indicate whether we are going to support it or not, I would like to ask the minister a couple of questions. Are there going to be commodity boards or commodity board, one particular board, or is there going to be a board for every commodity? If so, what we are going to have is the minister's department practically controlled by a dozen or so commodity boards. The paragraph here says, 'Constitutes commodity boards for the purpose of administering any scheme'.

Now I am sure the minister using the word in the plural, 'boards', is indicating in the foreseeable future there could be several boards. Now I believe that the same number of gentlemen and ladies who are going to be appointed to one commodity board surely goodness could deal with another commodity. As far as I can see, all the minister is doing here is getting a little avenue ready maybe to use in a partisan political way to make appointments for people who are friends of his or friends of the government or something like that. We see no reason to oppose the one board section.

As for the stablization programme, 8692

December 12, 1983 Tape No. 3921 MJ - 1 MR. WARREN: I have been having some discussions with the hon. the member for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward)o~ that I believe the unfortunate thing about the minister's departrnent,as it pertains to the Bgg Marketing Board, Farm Products Board and the Livestock Act,as it pertains generally to the aqricultural sectio~ o~ hi~ department, is that in ::l