VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. THURSDAY, APRIL 14, 1983. NO. 20

April 14, 1983 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 987 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, if I may for a moment, I would like to draw to the attention of this hon. House the fact that this is the 43rd anniversary of the first 400 Royal Artillery volunteers ,who sailed overseas some forty-three years ago today and tonight tl1ey are celebrating this anniversary with a dinner here in St. John's.

I would like to draw particular attention to it because I think it is a well-known fact that as the years go on perhaps the present generation do not fully appreciate the tremendous sacrifice and contribution that these people made to society and to this Province and indeed to the aims and aspirations of the free world. We are heartened too, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to draw attention to the fact that amongst the 400 Royal Artillery volunteers is our own illustrious Sergeant-at-Arms, Mr. Cyril Kirby, and two of the commissioners - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR.

MARSHALL : - who so effectively take care of th .e traffic in the galleries and look after the visitors to this House, Mr. Fred Graham and Mr. Tasker Cook. SOME HON ·. MEMBERS : Hear, hea .r. MR. MARSHALL: To these gentlemen, Mr. Speaker, I know that the members of the H.ouse,and indeed all of th.e people of the Province, would like to e~tend the be.St wi.shes 2176

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 987 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: to the 400 Royal Artill:ery volunteers and express our appreciation to them and to say to them that we trust that they will enjoy their celebrations tonight and to convey the best wishes of this House to them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. sp·eaker I if the hon. gentleman and myself and we on this side of the House cannot agree on anything else, we certainly can agree on this 1t4at these men who volunteered forty-three years ago did indeed make great sacrifices and did a tremendous job.

And we want to join with the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) in congratulating the members of the Newfoundland Heavy Artillery on the occasion of their 43rd anniversary and we want to wish them well, Mr. Spe.aker, in the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MS. VERGE: MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Minister of Educati.on. Mr. Speaker, I would like to read to hon. members of this House of Assemb.ly the text of a letter which. was delivered earlier this afternoon to the President of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. This letter 2177

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 988 JV - 1 MS. VERGE: is over my signature as Minister of Education,was directed to"Mr. Wayne Noseworthy, I President of the Newfoundland Teachers Association, 3 Kenmount Road, St. John's: Dear Mr. Noseworthy: Mid~y today I met with representatives of the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Horne and School _and Parent- Teachers Associations. With me at the meeting were the Executive Secretary of the Federation of School Boards and senior officials of my department.

At the meeting the PTA's Federation presented me their recommendation for a moratorium to be placed on the NTA strike action. Government and the Federation of School Boards have welcomed this proposal and have indicated our willingness to enter into the following arrangement. 11 Reopen schools on Monday, April 18, with teachers performing all their duties as usual and, in return, receiving full pay and contractual benefits. Give the collectiive bargaining process a chance to work to effect a settlement for a new collective agreement.

Reserve unto the NTA the right to resume strike action, ~hould a settlement not be achieved. 11 I sincerely ask you and your Association to consider carefully co-operating in such a moratorium, for the sake of students. "I await your reply." I would like to table a copy of that letter Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hearJ PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Premier . 2178

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 988 JV - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I notice that the Opposition did not take upon themselves the opportunity that they could have availed of to respond to the ministerial statement by the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) . For a number of days now the Opposition have been saying that the Minister of Education has not been taking any initative to try to solve a very, very thorny issue between ourselves a~d the Newfoundla nd Teachers ' Association . Now that she has, of course, the Opposition,unable to attack her 1are not taking the opportunity which they have under the rules of this Hou se, · to respond to what the government has just done . 2179

April 14, 19 83 Tape No. 989 NM ~ 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Under Ministerial Statements Mr. Speaker, I -wish to table in this House the following Telex that I have sent to Mr. William Hopper, President of Petro-Canada. "On April 13th., the han. William Rompkey Announced that the Labrador Group led by Petro-Canada had agreed to spend some SOQ million dollars on a lO-well programme over the five-year period from 19 .82 to 1986.

At our March 22nd. meeting, you informed me that while a 1983 drilling programme was planned that even a one rig 1984 drilling programme was very much in doubt, let alone drilling in 1985 and 1986. "While I am pleased to see this evidence of your group's faith in the geological potential of the Labrador Shelf, I would appreciate knowing how your plans could have changed so much in such. a short·time." MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the reason my colleague did not reply to the letter read by the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) it was too silly and foolish . to talk about. We would not waste the time of thls House commenting upon such a silly non-sensical piece of correspondence. Now ., Mr. Speaker, obvi.ously the Premier is upset with Petro-Canada. Mr. Speaker, I would ' say that is too bad. Petro-Canada, the Government of Canada, are trying to create jobs, are trying to develop the offshore resources, are trying to stimulate the Newfoundland economy . and the han. gentleman gets upset. It is not the fault of Petro-Canada that there is no dialogue between this Province and the Government of Canada and Petro-Canada.

It is the han. gen~leman's fault for sitting back and twiddling his 2180

April 14, 1983 Tape No . 389 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: thumbs and sulking because the Newfoundland Appeals Court ruled that Canada owned the offshore resource. As I indicated last night, Mr . Speaker, when we were here in the Bouse in committee, as I indicated to the members of the co .mmittee, the provincial government not.,r are like spectators at a hockey game, all they can do is sit there and watch the game being played, and they can either cheer or boo, in this case the hon. gentleman 2181

April 14,1983 Tape No. 990 ah-1 MR.NEARY: elected to boo Petro-Canada. But that is all they can do, .just sit there and watch the game being played. They have no imput, they are not taking any initiatives to create dialogue between themselves and the Government of Canada. And it look like that is the way it is going to be, Mr. Speaker, so I cannot blame Petro-Canada for getting on with the job, try to get the resource developed, create some badly needed employment in this Province and stimulate the economy. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR.NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS The han. Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the han. the Premier. Could the han. the Premier tell the House. it looks like the government have dug in for a long ~eige with the teachers - could the Premier inform the House how much money has been saved in the last three days to be devoted towards wiping out the deficit that the hon. gentleman has in current account brought about by the mismanagement of this administration? How much money has been saved by locking the teachers out, by forcing the teachers out of the classroom and by shutting the school doors tq the teachers and to the pupils in this Province?

How much has the han. gentleman's administration saved to apply towards the current account deficit? MR.SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, this government is not interested in saving any money on wages for any person in this Province who gets money from the government. We - --- - -- ·- -- are not interested ! in it arrl that is why, Mr. Speaker, we brought down a budget a couple of weeks ago predicting a $28 million deficit on current account.An<i,obviously,on capit -al account, 2182

April 14,1983 PREMIER PECKFORD : Tape No . 990 ah-2 obviously \ole borrow all that anyway. So, Mr . Speaker, we are not interested , not interested in the least . We have had long and serious meetings over the last six months with all the people in the bond market, \<lith the credit rating agencies and,as the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) has over the past few weeks indicated to this House, our financial integrity is }lssured by our management over the 2183

April 14, 1983 Tape 991 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: last number of years;that,unlike Nova Scotia and Quebec, which have both been downgraded,and warnings gone out to other provincial governments, there is no warning or no concern by the credit rating agencies over the financial management of this Province; that we are able to manage the budget in this present fiscal year that has just begun with a $28 million deficit on current account, that we want to see no savings made on the back of anybody who receives money or salary from this government. It is not our intention, it is not our desire to do so.

In that light, today we have taken two initiatives to demonstrate to the people of this Province that we are not interested, that that is not our motivation. One, we have initiated a number of programmes through the Department of Education, which will cost money; two, we have indicated through a Ministerial Statement today by the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) that if the teachers through their association agree to go back on Monday as contained in the recommendation from the Parent­ Teachers Association, we are prepared to go along with ·that proposal.

Why would we go along with a proposal to have the teachers back in the classroom on _~onday if we were trying to save money, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure my colleague has a lot of questions to ask about the minister's ding-a-ling service that she announced this morning, but before he does, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman a supplementary. If the hon. gentleman is not 2184

April 14, 1983 Tape 991 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: interested in keeping the teachers out of the classroom and the students out of school, Why does he not agree to lift the lockout? It is not a strike, it is a lockout. The hon. gentleman should be prepared to admit that it is a lockout . Why does he not lift the lockout and get back to the bargaining table and negotiate with the teachers in good faith? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORD: glad to hear 2185 The hon . the Premier. To that , Mr . Speaker, I am

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 992 MJ - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the Leader of the Oppostion (Mr, Neary) pose the question in the way he did because that is what we are saying in the Ministerial Statement, that we are pr-ep~~ed to go back to the table with the New£oundland Teachers' Association negotiating team and to have the teachers back in the classrooms on Monday to teach school in th~ normal manner in which school has been conducted in the past, Mr, Speaker. So, no problem here at all, We are prepared to l,ive by the recommendation that has come forward from the Parents' Association of the Province.

We are prepared to go back to the table, to resume negotiations, to go back to a normal state of~affairs and then,if there still is not any agreement, of course, the Newfoundland Teachers' Association still has the right to go the ultimate route that they have under the legislation now and that is back into a strike situation. So, the boards and ourselves are quite willing, Mr.

Speaker, to proceed with normal negotiations under normal circumstances and that is to have the teachers back in the classroom as of Monday morning preforming their normal duties and the negotiating teams for both sides in thi~ dispute can get back at the table and resolve and get an agreement, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S'. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: What the hon, gentleman is asking the teachers to· do is to kiss the hem of his garment. He is asking the teachers to give up whatever little bit of bargaining power they have, Mr.

Speaker, and the han. gentleman in that regard is being very unreasonable. Now, let me ask the 'hon. gentleman again is he prepared to lift the lockout and allow the teachers to go b~ck on the terms 2186

April 14, 1983 Tape No . 992 MJ - 2 MR . S . NEARY : and conditions under which they specified, that they not do the extracurric ular activities, that they go back on these terms and then get to the bargaining table and negotiate with th e government in good faith? Wil l the hon. gentleman 2187

April 14, 1983 Tape 993 PK - l MR. NEARY: revert to that position and not ask the teachers to go all of the way and give up whatever little bit of bargaining power they have left? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland Teachers' Association will still have this strike lever available to them as of Monday morning when they are back in the classroom. They still have that ultimate weapon in their hands, Nothing has been taken away from them and there is no conditions being attached to it. Now the conditions that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is talking about are factors which are a part of the negotiating process. MR. NEARY:· PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, I see! We have a list of issues - That is a new twist. -the N.T.A. has a list of issues,.and we have to resolve tho.se at the bargaining table. And that is what we have been saying. So there is no problem there, Mr. Speaker, the strike weapon is still in the hands of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association.

You know, this is a proposal that has come forward independent of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association , independent of the government and the Federation of School Boards. And it would seem to reflect, Mr. Speaker, the consensus of opinion in this Province today~ MR. NEARY: F~MIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: last night? PREMIER PECKFORD: It comes from - Stop bluffing! -parents of this Province. What about the survey on T.V. Mr. Speaker, now I kept quiet while the Leader of the Opposition asked a question and I 2188

April 14, 1983 PREMIER PECKFORD: in return, Mr. Speaker­ MR. NEARY: last night? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 993 PK - 2 would ask for the same courtesy Tell us about the survey on CBC Order, please! Now it would seem to represent the consensus of the parents and of the people of this Province, and as such we are prepared to show our reasonableness and deep concern that we have for the students of this Province. So let us go back to a normal situation and let us begin bargaining .

However,in doing that the N.T.A. holds still the ultimate weapon of strike over us, And let us not.kid ourselves; that is a weapon that they have~ that is pressure that they can use against the government and sobeit, that is in legislation that was granted 1that was provided by this Legislature and it should remain. So let us go back to a normal situation and let us therefore negotiate at the table like we were negotiating before and see if we can resolve this dispute and get on with having the students back in the classrooms permanently, And I think it is a fair and reasonable proposal.

And given the history, Mr. Speaker, just let me add ane more point, given the history of the relationship between this government,and other governments, L suppose, and the 2189

April 14, 19 .83 Tape No. 9-9 4 NM- l PREMIER PECKFORD: the NTA, I tnink that is a fair proposal. We have had, contrary to-what has happened over the last year in the relationship between bot~ sides, a very healthy relationship, a very productive, healthy relationship between the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. It has, and we can all take our own positions on this, it has for whatever reason, deteriorated. Some of the reasons mig~t be ours, some of the blame might be ours. Some of the blame .niigh.t be the NTA. Let us forget that.

Let us be big enough today, and on Monday, let us be big enough 1:o say, "Okay, we do have a problem in our relationship. How can it best be repaired? How can it best be put back on an even keel?" Let us bot~ agree then that we are, as we say in our public pronouncements, interested in the students of this Province, and, if we are, let us go back to normality and start to negotiate and repair that relationship and get an agreement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a ques ·tion for the Minister of Education.

I can certainly understand the minister's willingness to go along with this ~ecammendation for a moratorium because that has been her position for a long time. so, Mr. Speaker, I am wondering whether this letter today to the NTA represents a new approach because it is not very specific. The minister mentions, "Give the collective bargaining process a chance to work." Now that does not 219D

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 9-94 NM-2 MR. LUSH: tell us how the minister is going to go around this, whether she now got a commitment from her officials that they will negotiate because1from what I can gather,her officials have been saying there is no need to nego.tiate \-lith the teac:hers because they do not have a strike vote. No~, Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister,then1is this a change in approach? Is she making a commitment to the NTA now that her officials are willing to sit down and negotiate wi t.hout the NTA having \oJhat her officials had been saying, a strike vote. MR. SPEAKER (Ru'ssel'l') : MS.

VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, it has always been my position, as I have said repeatedly in Question Period, in this hon. H'ouse the last fe\•1 'days, and other members of government have said so,that the employer side of this dispute, comprising the provincial government and the Federation of School Boards,stand ready and willing to sit down and resume talks with the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. No~, 2191

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 995 ·sn-1 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with the allegation made by the Opposition Education critic (Mr. Lush) ,a statement that has been repeatedly made public by the NTA President, Mr. Wayne Noseworthy, that the NTA Executive called teachers out on strike simply because government would not negotiate unless teachers demonstrated their resolve by endorsing and taking strike action. Mr. Speaker, that was never true. MR. NEARY: In other words, you are calling him a liar. MS.

VERGE: However, if it is genuinely the basis of the NTA strike action, the NTA and their members have obviously made their point, teachers have voted to strike and are now on strike. That is where we are now, that has led to problems _for students across the Province.

To try to get us out of this problem situation the provincial government and the Federation of School Boards have today very quickly responded to a recommendation made by an impartial group representing the parents of the Province, the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Parent-Teacher and Home and Schools Association, that both sides in this dispute enter into 'a cooling off period', I believe was their phrase, that a moratorium be placed on the strike action by the NTA, that schools across the Province re-open 'on Monday coming, that students be back in the classroom, that teachers perform all their duties as usual, and, of course, in return received their full pay and full benefits derived from their collective agreement, that cooling off period giving the two sides a chance to talk, to work out the differences, to strike a deal for a new collective agreement.

If that process does not work, of course, the NTA would reserve the right to resume that strike action. The NTA would have nothing to lose, the government and the Federation of School Boards would have nothing to lose, 2192

April 14, 1983 MS VERGE: a lot to gain. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Terra Nova. !-1R. LUSH: Tape 996 EC - 1 and their parents would have Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker . The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, is the minister now telling us that the government negotiating team are willing to go back to the table without any preconditions? The Premier mentioned about wanting to make a new start, let bygones be bygones.

So is this what the minister is . telling us now, that the government negotiating team are wi ~ ling to go back to the table without any preconditions and start negotiating in good faith? MR . TULK: That is the real question . MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS VERGE: The han. the Minister of Well, Mr. Speaker, it has to be repeated that if we are going to achieve a settlement in this dispute, it has to be recognized and accepted by the Newfoundland Teachers' Association that there are serious financial constraints on the provincial government. We are dealing with an economy in recession.

We are coping with major problems in bur important resource based industries. We are coping with serious difficulties with our iron ore mining industry, our pulp and paper industry, our fishing industry, not to mention suffering the overflow of other general recessionary problems arising in the financial centres of the Western world. To put it bluntly, Mr. Speaker, there is a limit to what government can spend for teacher salaries and that limit has been defined. That limit is contained in the estimates for our new budget and there has to be recognition of this 2193

Ap ril 14 , 19 83 Tape 996 EC - 2 MS VERGE : limitation and acceptance of it by the Newfoundland Teachers 1 Association if we are ultimately to achieve a settlement and ultimately end the current dispute. MR . LU SH: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The ho .n. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: It is very difficult to follow the logic of the minister. Every time she speaks she digs the deep hole. MR. TULK: Give her a new shovel. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering now how the minister can rationalize this lett .er today, this invitation -we would hope it is an invitation-to the NTA to start negotiations with the assurance, of course, that her own team have agreed to go back to the negotiating tabie. How does she justify this sit~ation with this ding-a-ling service that she announced this morning? 2194

April 14, 1983 '!'ape No. 997 MJ ~ 1 MR. T. LUSH: So is the minister scrapping that programme, this service that she announced t~is morning what was it - Dial-a-Tutor Service? So ~ow does the minister now justify that position? Here we have it appearing that the minister is passing the olive branch to the NTA but in the meantime she has announced a ding-a-ling service this morning to prolong this ~ockout situation. So how does the minister justify tnat? MS. L, VERGE: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Minister of Education, MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, that is very easy to justify.

All of this is being done for the sake of the students of the Province. If it happens, and I sincerely hope it does,that the Newfoundland Teachers' Association accepts the call by the provincial Federation of Parent/ Teacher Associations to place a moratorium on the strike action and have schools reopened on Monday,then the investment that has already been made by the Department of Education and government over the last two days in having the Dial-a-Tutor Service set up w·:Ul be a small price indeed to pay for having schools reopened and we will very glad~y pay that price.

In the meantime, while the strike lasts, and again I repeat I nope it does not last very much longer, while the strike lasts it is incumbent upon the Department of Education to partially meet the requests that we are getting from parents across the Province who have called the department expressing their worries about their children, especially highschool students _- who are suffering because of missing time from regular classroom instruction, by offering on a stopgap basis some services to guide these students and their parents in their efforts to carry on with school work at home.

What I announced this morning was the 2195

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 997 MJ - 2 MS . L. VERGE : institution by the Department of Education of a long-distance tutoring services called Dial ­ a-Tutor '"hich would be acceptable by students outside St. John's by using a toll free number, the number is 576-2111, the service would be staffed by a number of qualified teachers offering assistance in the important subject areas . This service is being designed primarily for senior highschool students, young people enrolled in the levels 1000, 2000 and 3000 courses. 2196

April 14, 1983 Tape 998 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: The second measure that I announced this morning is the changing of the programme content of the CBC Radio School Broadcasts which are aired each weekday afternoon at 2:30 so that next week 1 that would be starting Monday at 2:30 1 there will be a series of fifteen minute programmes offering guidance to students trying to study at home and complementing the Dial-a~Tutor Service. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. LUSH: The han. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, that is a statemen~ by the way,that thE minister should have made in the House so that we could have responded.

That is the statement she should have made here instead of making it 6n the airwaves. But, Mr. Speaker, the question to the minister iscan the minister indicate to the House now then whether the governrnent 1 with their intention, the negotiating team 1 with their intention of going back to the negotiating table have dropped all of their preconditions including the precondition that the N.T.A must have a strike vote? Because that is what her officials have been saying 1 that there is no requirement for them to go back to the negotiating table because the N,T.A. did not have a strike vote. But, Mr.

Speaker 1. will there now, will the government now drop all their preconditions? Can the minister give us a definitive answer to that question? Will they now drop all of their preconditions to start right from scratch? And let us inform the people of this Province, let us inform the teachers of the Province of just what this invitation means. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the invitation speaks for itself and it is now in the hands of the N.T.A. President, and I trust that I. will be hearing from him very soon. If he is not sure what it means I will be very glad 2197

April 14, 1983 Tape 998 ~K - 2 MS. VERGE: to elaborate. I would welcome a personal contact from him. Mr.

Speaker, I have to say for the benefit of all han. members of this House and the people sitting in. the galleries tpat it is absolutely untrue, false, completely wrong for the member opposite to say that anyone associated _with the employer, the provincial government/ Federation of School Boards bargaining team ever at any time or in any place said to anyone from the Newfoundland Teachers' Association that the N.T.A. would have to go out on strike or get a strike mandate before the employer's side would negotiate.

Now that allegation has been made by N.T.A. executive members and members of the employer negotiating . team asked the meml;lers of the N.T.A. negotiating team about that and am being questioned the N.T.A. negotiating team had to admit that indeed they did not know that it had ever been said either. 2198

April 14,1983 Tape No. 999 ah-1 SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr.LUSH: Mr. Speaker, we have to take with caution the things the minister talked about with respect to this contract.

And I demonstrate by referring her to a question that I asked yesterday when I asked the minister if she had interceded to try and bring this dispute to a satisfactory resolution and the minis£er indicated that she had not but that the Deputy Hinister of Labour and Manpower had been in touch with the parties in dispute - of course referring to the NTA-and said that the Deputy Minister of Labour had been in touch with officials of the NTA as recently as a few days ago.

Now the minister knows what the · NTA response to that ~as: The president of the NTA suggested that they had never been contacted by anybody in the Department of Labour and Manpower or anybody connected with the negotiations on the government official team,that they had not been contacted by anybody,and indeed he said that the minister was either trying to misrepresent or mislead this House. So what does the minister say to that? Under what circumstances did the ~inister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) contact the NTA ? Who did he contact? Whois right in this situation?

Are the NTA telling the truth or is the minister telling the truth or are they both telling lies? What is the situation? ~1R. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to clarify this situation. About a week and a half ago the Deputy Minister of Labour and Manpower came to see some of my officials and indicated that he would be in contact with the Newfoundland Teachers' 2199

April 14,1983 Tape No. 999 ah-2 MS.VERGE: Association 1 and it was with that knowledge that I made by statements here in Question Period yesterday. Now, M~. Speaker, the Deputy Minister of Labour and Manpower and all the staff of that department have an excellent record of aiding the resolution of labour­ management disputes,including disputes between the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and their employers in previous years. And I call on my colleague,the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn),to outline the services that his department have provided to aid the resolution of this particular current dispute.

SOME HON. r1EHBERS : No way. No way. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon.member for Terra Nova. MR. NEARY: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is Question Period and my colleague has a line of questioning going and the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) has no right to call on a colleague to get up and lecture the House during the Question Period. MR.MARSHALL: To that point of order. 2200

April 14, 1983 Tape 1000 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: I thought the hon. me~bers of the Opposition wanted the facts, wanted the information. The hon. the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) pointed to her colleague, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), who could give a certain amount of extra information that had been elicited by the hon. member, but if hon. gentlemen do not wish to have the information as they obviously do not, that is all we can do. I It will only exacerbate the situation. MR.

NEARY: We do not need any lectures today. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hen. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) posed a question to the Minister of Education, who,during the course of her remarks, indicated that maybe the Minister of Labour and Manpowe! might answer the question. The procedure is a little unusual and the Chair did recognize the hen. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I was just pointing out that the minister does not always give us reliable information and she proved that with this statement by the Minister of Labour and Ma~power.

Now I will get back to another point. Yesterday I asked the minister whether or not the Newfoundland teachers had been afforded all of the channels of the collective bargaining process1and I referred to mediation and binding arbitration and asked what the situation was on that. The minister carne out and said that the legislation does provide for binding arbitration to resolve the dispute between the Newfoundland 2201

A,pril 14 , 1 98 3 Tape 1000 EC - 2 MR . TULK : Te ac hers' Ass ocia tio n and their employees but, an yw ay, t hey did not wan t to do that. Now, in a statement issued by the.Premier on October 27 in response to a request for binding arbitration from the teachers, the Premier answered, "Government has rejected t;.his request because it is inconsistent with legislation governing collective bargaining between teachers and the government." Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have on the one hard the Minister of Education (Ms Verge),who is saying that binding arbi­ tration is legal, that teachers have this :right 1 and we have the Premier saying that they do not have this right. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is the right position? What is the right interp!etation? Can the minister tell us? Did she make a mistake yesterday, that the teachers do not have this right for binding arbitration, or was the Premier right? 2202

April 14, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Education. MS. VERGE : Tape No. 1001 NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, what is relevant to this present dispute is whether or not government did or should have, or should now refer this labour-management dispute to binding arbitration. There was a formal request from the Newfoundland Teachers' Association for binding arbitration. It was received, it was considered by the members of the provincial government collectively, it was dealt with, it was answered. The outcome is that that request was refused.

There were good reasons which I have elaborated on on several occasions. Binding arbitration ,for a start,would be totally inconsistent with our wage restraint programme.

I mean,on the one hand why announce a firm wage restraint programme limiting percentage increases for salaries for all public servants if a couple of weeks later you turn around and refer to an independent third group,over which government has no control, a qroup which is not accountable to the voters of the Province, the right to decide what percentage increases would be given to one of the largest public service sector bargaining groups in the Province. Tc;>tally inconsistent and contradictory, one very good reason.

And the second reason is that in any case the provincial government,comprising duly elected representatives of the voters and the citizens and taxpayers of this Province,would be derelict in our duty to those people who have placed their confidence and trust in us if we were to abdicate that such trust and responsiblity by turning over control of such a large chunk of the budget of this provincial government, over a payroll estimated to total over $260 million next year to a third group, an impartial group, people with no accountability to the voters of the Province, who have no 2203

April 14, 1983 Tape No. lOOl NM - 2 MS. VERGE: responsiblity for any other government programmes or services. SOME RON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. LUSH: Hear , hear~ The hon. meiP]Jer for · Terra Nova. The question, Mr. Speaker, is whether this Minister of Education knows anything about education, whether she k.nows what is going on? That is t,he question, Mr. Speaker, that is the question.

Because th.is statel!lent from the Pl:emier goes on to say that' the NTA did not want binding arbitration as part of their collective bargaining process and the government agreed with this position and therefore the legislation does not provide for it.' Now either the legislation provides for it or it does not. Now if the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) cannot tell the teachers of this Province whether the legislation provides for it, who can? 2204

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1002 MJ - 1 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, there is no point in trying to weasle out of it, either the legisl~tion provides for it or it does not. Yesterday the minister said it did. Now does it provide for it or not so that the teachers of this Province know where they stand? Can they have binding arbitration? The minister said yesterday they could, the Premier said some weeks ago said they could not. What is the situation, str~ighfo;t"W~rd? MS. VERGE: ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Minister of Education. MS.

VERGE: Mr, Speaker, again being straighforward, binding arbitration was refused by this provincial government to the NTA for the reasons that I h~ve given, This dispute has to be resolved, I would suggest.and l think it is in the best interest of both parties,through the collective bargaining process,with the Newfoundland / Teachers' Association having the strike leve~~ I have invited them to put aside their strike lever, to put a moratorium on strike action, to give th.e collective bargaining process a chance to work but 1 of course,reserving onto themselves the right to resume str~ke action, Mr.

Speaker, I find it very disappointing that the members of the Opposition are getting sidetra .cked into irrelevant legal fine points and technicalities instead of dealing with the real issues of the problems being faced by the students of the Province. MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! Order, please! The time for Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMM:ITTEE;S MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han, the Minister of Labour and Manpower. 2205

April 14, 1983 Tape No . 10 02 MJ - 2 fii.R. J. DINN : Mr. Spea:ker f I wish to table the report of the Workers' Compensation Board. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (RUssell): Order, please! O;rderf please! SOME HON.· MEMBERS: Oh,· oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Cha,;i,r is trying to recognize the hon. the Minister of Labour a,nd Manpower, MR. DINN: Mr, Speaker, I would like to table the annual ;report of the Worke:r 1 s Compensat.ion Board for the year 1982. 'ORDER;S' Oli' 'l'aE 'PA'.l MR. W. MARSHALL: committee of the Wh.ole on S·upp;J.,y.

On motion, th~t the House resol¥e itself into Coxntt\ittee of the Whole on Supp;I.y, ,Mr. Speakel;', left the Chair. _ COMMITTEE' OF THE' WllOLE ON SUPP!.Y 2206

April ]4, ]983 Tape No. ]003 JV - ] MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Council. MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: please. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! We are on Head 2. The hon. the President of the Mr. Chairman, we are now on the - Oh, oh! If I could have order Mr. Chairman, Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Chairman, I think the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is going into orbit over the fact that somebody has a petition frora his district or something. Hr. Chairman, what we have before the committee now is the vote under Head 2, which is Legislative, in Committee of·the Whole.

It involves the vote for the House of Assembly and for the Department of the Auditor General, the details of which have been tabled in the House. I would urge, and I would hope, certainly, that the Opposition - I once again, at the risk of being admonished by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) about lecturing the opposition about how they conduct their parliamentary affairs, I have to ask the Opposition if they will ask a few, perhaps, incisive questions. MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL : You will not give any answers. Are we on Legislative? The hon.

Leader of the Opposition asked what Head we were doing and the hon. Chairman had called out Head No. 2, Legislative. I would urge the Opposition to try to ask a few questions about the vote. The total of the vote is $2.3 -odd million for the Auditor General, $6.2 million for the Legislature and, Mr. Chairman, in anyone's judgement that is not small change. I would 2207

April ]4, ]983 Tape No. J 003 JV - 2 MR. MARSH.z..LL : urge the Oppositiop, in contrast to the way in which they have conducte 'd Committee of the Whole heret0fore in Consolidat _ed Revenue Funds, that the::t might like to entertain and ask a few questions as to what the money is being spent for. There is one thing that I would like to deal with if I could, Mr. Chairman, under this Bead of Legislative, because it has come up from time to time. The hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) , who is the Opposition Bouse Leader, has a penchant from time to time of shooting me across letters, like somebody else I know, that land on my desk and two or three minutes later they get into the Press. So, obviously 2208

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1004 SD - 1 MR . MA RS HAL L: he is not too interested in getting a response to his letter. So consequently he will" realize now why, instead of wasting the time of sending him a letter 1 I reply to him publicly. And this is in relation, Mr. Chairman~o the complaints that have been lodged with respect to the way in which the Estimates are being handled. I think I would like to put this at rest now, forever and a day , with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and members of the Opposition.

A few years ago in order to enable the Estimates 1and in the hope that the Estimates would be considered by the Rouse ,which is a legislative function, in a more effective manner 1 to involve much more fully the private members of the House on the government side and the members of the Opposition, most of th .e Heads for the departments were referred off to smaller Committees of the House,consisting of seven people 1 at which Committees the minister in charge of that particular department would appear, questions would be asked# The virtue of it would be that the private members would get a greater appreciation of why the monies were being spent, there would be greater scope for asking questions and,consequently, there would be a fuller examination of the expenditures of the Province 1which is really one of the basic reasons '' for the existence of the House of Assembly or any committee of same.

We implemented that. At the time we got it through the Leader of the Opposition then was the hon. Don Jamieson who agreed with it, agreed with . it in its entirety. All members of - MR. HODD ER: He sold us out. 2209

April 14, 1983 Tape No . 1004 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: It is a property, I know, of hon. members there opposite. They say it is a property of the Tory Party,but it is really the property of the Liberal Party , that once a Leader departs they eviscerate him, they eviscerate his memory. So he is talking ab~ut the hon. Don Jamieson as having sold out the Liberal Party and sold out the Liberal members and let t~at go out on record.

I say that when the hon. gentleman was here , he made a great contribution to the parliamentary proceedings of this House and to the strengthening of parliamentary democracy in this House when the hon. gentleman concurred that the most sensible way to deal with the Estimates was through these committees themselves and consequently 1 as a result of this 1 this is what we found. Now to show about the inconsistencies of the hon. members, their love/hate for their leaders and their inconsistencies of their thought, whatever thought they have, early in this session the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodderl wrote me a letter and he indicated to me that these committees were not working and we should go back to Committee of the Whole House as we are now - there are still a few of the headings that are heard in Committee of th .e Whole H.ouse­ that this was contrary to democracy, Estimates were not being considered properly etc., etc., ad infinitum. He said that the only way to do it properly was in Committee of the Whole House.

Now,in Committee of the Whole House what we have had, what we have seen this year 1as we have seen in previous years, when Consoli~ated Revenue Fund was involved, the most important department of government bar none,which involves the provision of monies for the payment of interest on debts for borrowings that occurred, which requires payment of the absolute necessities and which squeeze out, as I have indicated from time to time in the debate, th.e scope which we have for dealing with other 2210

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1004 SD - 3 MR. MARSHALL: necessary expenditures such as in Education, Health, Social Services and otherwise, that instead of asking why the 2211

April 14,1983 Tape No. 1005 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: monies had been increased, why there was more money on interest this year, what wasthe total amount of the borrowings, how much was paid out on pensions, on ex gratia payments, etc., etc., ad infinitum,we were invited to enter into a little gossip session with the hon. members wrumthey spoke about nonentities. so,consequently 1 on the one hand the first letter I got from the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) this year, the very first letter on this was to complain. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I want for you to understand, he wanted to complain that - MR.STAGG: Did he table letters? ' MR. MARSHALL: No, he would love to table letters but I am going to explain the letters. and I hope he is going to be embarrassed in vivid Liberal red by the time I am through with it. But, Hr. Chairman,in the first letter I got he was complaining about these committees. Then lo and behold,the other day,this was the letter I got, March 21st.

"I am responding to your letter of Thursday March 17th," now that was in response to his original one when I talked about what a great democratic thrust this was, how the government agreed with the hon. Don Jamieson, how it very much improved the examination of estimates of the House. So he says he is responding now to my letter of March 17th relating to the committees on the estimates.

"We cannot agree, it is too onerous for two committees to be sitting at the same time." Now 1 this is the first letter he wrote, "We cannot agree," he says, "It is too onerous." He says it was too onerous for two committees to be sitting at the same time. "The membership on the committee is proportionate to the membership of the House." This is my response to him. Then the other day what did the 2212

April 14,1983 Tape No. 1005 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL: hon. gentleman come in with but a letter,after scoring these committees, and he says as follows - andi am going to quote it in full, Mr. Chairman, and I am going to table it,because you will want to keep this letter,and I know you in your impartiality will like to be able to see this letter and judge as to the inconsistency and the hypocrisy of the hon. gentleman there opposite . It is not that he means to be a hypocrite , he does not do that, but it is just that he does not undeFstand, he is not consistent from one day to the other.

Anyway, March 12th, the other day, he says- addressed to me- "Further to your letter to me of March 2lst,in which you state that the' committee system enhances the ability of the House of Asse1nbly to require greater accountability of government/ I wish to make the following observation. At a meeting of the Government Services Committee on Monday evening, April ll,l983,there were four government members and three Opposition members in attendance,discussing estimates of the Department of Transportation and Communications. This is a major department," he said, and it is major. What is this?

"Debate was lively." In this little committee that was ineffective before," debate was lively with much ground covered 2213

April 14, 1983 Tape 1006 PK - 1 MR. Mil.RSHALL: · that would be of interest to the general public. Now, this is what we were telling the han. gentlemen all of the time,in these committees this would occur. "There was one flaw in that very productive meeting,however,and that is there was not one member of the press in attendance. I realize it is not essential that the press attend every committee hearing. However, committee hearings become a mockery when you realize that Hansard for these meetings is not published until six months after the hearing is held.

" 1ivhen then is the accountability of government,when seven persons discuss estimates in secret without the benefit of an immediate transcript and since there were no reporters, no coverage for the general public?" He thought he was talking in secret, Mr. Chairman, he must have thought he was. ·~ would again urge you to place the Estimate Committees hearings back on the floor of the Legislature." So can you not see - and no wonder the other han. gentlemen fled from the benches when they saw I was going to read this letter of inconsistency,written by the han. member. But can you not see, Mr.

Chairman, the inconsistency of the han. member in that? On the one hand the Committees were no good, now they were excellent. There was,to quote him, 'Much grou?d covered. There was a lively debate and lively discussion', just as we promised 1 but because the press did not happen to cover them.we should X this out • Now, you know, I mean,that is not a - I doubt whether the press is covering what I am saying today,because I do not think that they would want to show- MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. MARSHALL: No, I can understand. I do not think they would want the populace to know how inconsistent 2214

April 14, 1983 Tape 1006 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: was one of the elected members of the House of Assembly to write a letter of this nature to us. But the fact of the matter is-and he refers to Hansard, he has the consummate gall to refer to Hansard. We have provided a written record of Hansard, I mean, this government and this party when it came to power. Does the han. gentleman realize, and I do not like to get back in history, but I have to - MR. NEARY: It goes back to 1956. MR. MARSHALL: No, not 1956.

When we came to power in 1970,Hansard, that is the written report of the proceedings of this House,was not published. Do you realize that? MR. NEARY: on a daily basis. MR. MARSHALL: It was publishee, and it was published It was cut out abo .ut 1958, I do not know the reason for it, probably the then Leader was embarrassed at something that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) had said and he did not want it to get into the record forever and a day. I do not know what the reason was 1 but the fact of the matter is there was no Hansard. Now,there is a daily Hansard, Mr. Chairman,of the proceedings of this House.

There are Hansard reports taken of everything, and are transcribed, in those meetings and they are published as quickly as possible. So the point of the matter I want to make is the inconsistency of the han. member, to point out once again under this heading of Legislative, what an advance ·it was , what a forward advance it was and what an aid it was to the ultimate aims of democracy in this Province to bring the estimates into the Committees. Any failings of the Committees 2215

April 14, 1983 Tape 1007 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and I do not accept the fact that because the press were not there one day,that this should cancel them out, because they are fairly reasonab~y covered. But any deficiency that occurs in those Committees can be laid mainly at the feet of the hon. gentlemen there opposite,because they do not appear, they do not seem to have - they do appear sometimes and sometimes they do not1 like yesterday, the critic for Mines and Energy - when my estimatE7s were onthey had to send in a substitute, the ~ember for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), and he was the only person there at that particular time. So there is not a concerted effort in those Committees by members there opposite to make them the success that Mr. Jamieson envisaged them to be and that the government envisaged them to be. It is the best possible ·system for the examination of the estimates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: It is the type of system that is used in other parliamentary democracies and I really urge that the hon. gentleman, instead of inundating me with letters of great inconsistency, as he has given me during this session, instead of complying with the instructions of his present leader, he should emulate the example of his previous leader, that distinguished gentleman, Mr. Jamieson, and do what he can to see that this proc~dure - MR. NEARY: Are you on your nasty pills today? MR. MARSHALL: No, it is not nasty, this is advice - and do the best he can to see that the procedure which we forged together with Mr.

Jamieson's co-operation operates properly, because that is the best way. As a matter of fact, maybe next year, in view of the way in which the hon. gentlemen have handled Committee of the 2216

April 14, 1983 Tape 1007 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Whole on these estimates, perhaps we should refer all of the departments to the Committees. MR. NEARY: to the House. MR. MARSHALL: They should be brought back No, not back to the House, to the Committees themselves. Now, having said that, Mr. Chairman, just before I take my seat I want to see if there are any questions that I would be quite happy to respond to.

It would be an idea - I would suggest to hon. gentlemen, if they are interested in the expenditure of public funds, the limited public funds that we have, that they might like to address thems~lves relevantly to the questions that would occur. There is, for instance, $253,000 in Administrative Support; the House Operations is there; there is a vote for Standing and Select Committees. There is an amount of $225,000, by the way, being provided for the very Hansard that the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) indicated was not adequate.

There is $106,000 provided for the Legislative Library; the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, $23,000. Under this comes, by the way, Mr. Chairman, the office of the :?arliamentary Ccmnissioner 1 wbo is the Ombudsman, and that costs the Province $118,500. So these expenditures are all there before the"hon. gentlemen. I invite them to ask relevant questions with respect to same and I certainly will be prepared to respond to them to the best of my capacity. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! 2217

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1008 MJ - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Before I recognize the hon. the member for Port au Port Urr. Hodder) he indicated he wanted to k~ow how much time was available. There is fifteen minutes for the opening remarks, fifteen minutes to respond and then it will be ten and ten as we have been doing. The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to take the full fifteen minutes,but I could not help but respond to the comments by the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) opposite. We on this side have tried our very best to make sure that those committees work.

Unfortunately,the system is now in place. When the committees were put in place there was a different ratio of members on both sides of the House than there is now. We now have eight members,and·I say without fear of .contradiction that we have manned all of the committee meetings. And when the member opposite says that he attended a meeting recently where substitutes were present, well certainly, Mr. Chairman, we have meiDbers who are in their districts, we have members who attend meetings, we have members who have delegations who visit them, we have all sorts of business that must be taken care of.

When you consider that there are only eight 'of us and there are meetings being held in the morning, the House is in the afternoon and then meetings in the evening, we have been able to maintain membership at all of those committee meetings and it must also be kept in mind that each member on this side of the House holds various shadow posts in which they pay particular attention to the minister's department 1 so that very often we find ourselves 1while the committee to which we are assigned may be doing one set of estimates, we have to go to another committee meeting. So, that 2218

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1008 MJ -2 MR. J. HODDER: is why we have substitutes. So the Oppostion has decided that we will man all the committee meetings and that is what \ol.e have done to this present time. But, Mr. Cha.irman, the committees are not as effeetive as this House of Assembly t:or studying the estimates of the government. There was a time in this House when there was no seventy-five hour rule and there are still a number of Legislatures across the country where there is no time rule for debate of the estimates. And it is one place where the Oppostion can dig· in and look for information.

For instance,we have been trying to get the Rural Development list of loans and grants, we have been trying to,get that for years and years and years. We have never been able to get it. Under the system in many Legislatures we could hold up the business of the House until we got that part~cular list of loans and grants, which the government has refused for some reason. Any other'business that goes on in thi$ Province is made public. If a person gets a loan, or any business transaction, it can oe read in Dun and B'r'a'd's:treet, but yet 2219

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1009 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: the government qives public money to businesses all over this Province, lends money to businesses all over this Province, and keeps it secret. And they have put a little artificial procedure there. And these are the things that we cannot get at in committees. We have no ability to force a minister, we are under the constraints of time all the time. The other thing L want to talk about, Mr.

Chairman, is ·the fact that the liansards from those meetings should be made available to members and to the public as quickly as Hansards are made available in the House of Assembly. If these committees are the same as the House of Assembly and are as important as the administration opposite believes them to be, then they should be treated in exactly the same way, these coi".mittees should be treated exactly as the proceedings in the House of Assembly are treated and we should have an immediate transcript. But, Mr.

Chairman, on a number of occasions- that was not the first time that we had, as I termed it, a meeting in secret. On a number of occasions this has happened, where we sit there and talk back and forth,all sorts of information comes· forward but no one has access to it until six months later. We receive those volumes six months later. All I have been trying to get the ,, administration to do is to modify those committees. If we have to have them, and if the hon. member opposite is firm, well, ·then, let us try to make them work. Let us have one committee meeting a day, one a day. That can be done. MR.

MARSHALL: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. HODDER: Yes. 2220

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 100.9 NM- 2 MR . MARSHALL: I did not hear the hon. member, I was outside. Did the hon . gentleman apologize yet for his slur against Mr. Jamieson? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Ord er, p1ease! MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, I do not think that needs to be dealt with. Mr. Chairman, were we to turn back the clocks I would tell the minister opposite, Mr. Jamieson­ or no, Mr . Jamieson was our leader when the estimates procedures changed 1 but ware we able to turn back the clock we would never have changed the estimate procedures, we would be doing them in the Bouse. I can tell the hon . member that. MR. MARSHALL: Well '"hY attack him? 2221 ..

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1010 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: I think Hansard will prove that I made no such attack, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, the hon. members opposite do not want to hear sense. The Premier and the minister without portfolio know that those committees are the best thing that ever happened to the government.

The minister can come into those committees now, he has four little lackeys on the government side who sit there who never ask - I sat in one committee meeting last year, I called them a bunch of dummies, they sit around and they ask the minister nice little questions. They have the opportunity to sit down and say, 'Oh, Mr. Minister, what a wonderful thing you are doing'. That is what we hear. An Opposition member comes in, raises a valid point and suddenly he has government members cropping up everywhere defending the minister. MR. BAIRD: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : member for Humber West. MR.

BAIRD: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Chairman, for the record I just heard the hon. member for Port au Port (_Mr. Hodder! talking about the four lackeys at a meeting there laat year of the Estimates Committee.! was one of those representatives at that meeting and it is very ironic that that same afternoon the hon. member came out complaining that we were, asking too many questions. and we were taking up the time of the committee. So I would like him to clarity that, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, r rule there is no point of order. The han. member for Port au POrt.

MR. HODDER: Mr • Chairman, for the pa.st 2222

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1010 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: two years now I have seen no indication-from the governmen~ side that they want to improve those committees. If you want to improve those committees fix them so that there is one committee meeting at a t~e, one committee meeting a day so that all members of the Opposition, if they wish, can attend. I mean, we had a meeting last night at 9:30 in the evening, they are staggered at different times. Why not set the times for the committee meetings?. If we have to have them let us do it properly and let the general public know. MR.

MARSHALL: There was one committee last night and there was only one member of the Opposition there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Where were the other seven? MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, the same comment can go for the government members. There may have been one, that would-I would estimate, in proportion to the government side, one would - MR. MARSHALL: We had six there. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Chairman, does that mean that if there were nine peoole from the government side of the House, that the minister who was giving his estimates last night was brought to greater accountabil~~y . because he had nine lackeys from his own side there? 2223

April 14, 1983 Tape 1011 NM- 1 MR. HODDER: WelL I will tell the minister that in most of the committees there are three or four government members there usually, and there is usually one or two Opposition members there. And we are trying - I am just asking the minister would he change the times of those committees, and would he change it as such that - what is he afraid of? Why not have one committee a day? MR. MARSHALL: We had one yesterday and there was only one person who turned up. MR. HODDER: At nine-thirty in the evening? Perhaps some of us go to bed early,for crying out loud. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR.

HODDER: But, Mr. Chairman, all~the members were there, the night before there were three Opposition members there. And perhaps there are other times when there are more Opposition members there. But at least we have been there and we have -done the best we can. What we are asking the government, we are asking the government not to hold three or four meetings a day. We have had days when there·~ three meetings going on the same day. Not this year, we have had two going on this year. Last session we had - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. WARREN: MR. HODDER: at the same time. PREMIER .PECKFORD: MR.

HODDER: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. HODDER: but we have had three. Not .this year now. .. Two at the same time, this year~.- We certainly do have two Not three. We have had three. Not this year. Not this year, no,not this year, But all we are asking is that the government be a little less inflexible. We are already in this 2224

April 14, 1983 Tape 1011 NM-2 MR. HODDER: s.ituation, we would like to see them back on the floor of the House of Assembly, but what we are asking for is a little bit of justice and a little bit of fair play so that we can attend these meetings and do the m~etings justice. Not only that, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) says that there were eight members there. I have never seen a government member prepare himself for one of those committee meetings. At least we sit down and try to find out, and ask questions.

I have never seen a government member at any of those meetings come in except to praise the minister. I have never yet seen a government member at any committee meeting ever take MR. STAGG: You are not allowed into the library with us, boy. MR. HODDER: I have never seen a government member take issue with any minister since the committee meetings have been in progress, never have I. seen it. They sit there as if they have no accountability whatsoever, and the onus is on the Opposition, and we are asking for proper - a fair chance to do the job that we have to do under this particular system. MR.

BAIRD: And ask your usual 'type of question. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAI'RMAN (Aylward) : The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I cannot le.t this opportunity go by.

We are talking about one of the most serious issues that involve this Legislature, and I want to address myself to it for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that back in 1979,when I got involved in leadership and all the rest of it, one of the things that I noticed in the time that I had been a member of this House, especially in the backbench, that I was not given the opportunity, because you had all the estimates being done here in the House, I was not being given the opportunity, 2225

April 14, 19 83 Tape lOll NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD : because it became just a political football with the estimates, the estimates were not discussed, there were hundreds of millions of dollars went through here in five minutes at the end 1 when you we.u.ld have all night sessions, it was a Mickey Mouse, 2226

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1012 MJ ~ 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: it was a real circus here in this House,and I ~omm~tted myself at that time to try to bring some sense and sanity out of the way estimates were dealt with. Now, if you look everywhere around the world,as the President of the Council (Mr. Marsha1ll has so correctly said, you will find that any Commission of Enquiry or any committee that has looked at how the rules should be amended and changed have come up with the same kind of solution.

It is not all that creative,but it is the only solution that is available and that is to try to get the members of the House of Assembly, the backbenchers and the Opposition members, more intimately involved in the estimates for the budget. I have been here nights 1 at 10:00 P.M. or 11:00 P,M.,when $40 million would go through in two or three midutes, $40 million, $50 million, $100 million, and not one solitary question.

So we decided to change it and we went,at the time to the Liberal Leader, who is now the High Commissioner for Canada to Eng1a~d, went and talked about it and we came up with the Estimates Committees. Now, Mr. Chairman, they are not perfect but they are a lot better than the s'ystem .-there are a lot of new members here who do not know how the old system worked but let me tell you, Mr. Chairman, any member of this House today,who was here several years ago,aan vouch for the fact that it was a circus.

There was no attempt by the Oppostion, and there was a larger Opposition,seventeen and eighteen and so on members of the Oppostion,to deal with the subheads of the particular department, to discuss the policy of that department and the various programmes. rt was all just a political football,with no examination of the various items to be considered in that department's estiil\ates-And I firmly believe that the systeil\ we have now is 2227

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1012 MJ - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: much, much better. It is not perfect but it is much, much better. Now, the other problem we have, Mr. Chairman, that has come up since then,is that the Oppostion ranks have been decimated. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was going to say that is not my fault but I suppose I bear some guilt for that problem,that their numbers have been reduced. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is part of the political process, that sometimes you have large majority governments and small Oppositions other times it will be different. Right now the Opposition only have eight members.

We are trying to deal with it, Mr. Chairman, as responsible, democratically orientated legislators on the government side. We are trying to deal with it that way and we are trying to reasonable with the Opposition as a result of it. ·:But it is a much, much better system and gets the individual private member in this House more involved in the operations in government than if the whole thing was done right here in the Co~ittee of the whole. And you can see it, Mr.

Chairman, even with the few things that are left, that are done in Committee of the Who.le, the few subheads that are left they are not dealt with. we · had to force the Opposition·:the other day, on Consolidated Funds Services, 2228

April 14, 1983 Tape 1013 PK - l PREMIER PECKFORD: to focus their remarks , to focus their attention on asking constructive questions - Why is our debt load the way it is? Must it be as high as it is?- andthe other items under the Consolidated Fund Services 1rather than let them slide on through. And because, Mr. Chairman, and the various officers of the House recognize this,Consolidated Fund Services is a broad area, they can almost discuss anything. So they can get up and talk about the restructuring of the fishery or the close down of this mine or the reopening of something else.

They never get down or you are not forced to get down and deal with the specifics of that particular subhead. And I think it is a critical, critical issue. And I would like to hear from some of the other private members on it. I would like to hear what they have to say,because it is not perfect, and it needs to be improved,but it is better than going back to a full Committee of the Whole which just makes a mockery out of the whole Legislature.

You know, ~f you look anywhere in the world where they have tried to revise and reform the rules - and that is why, of course, the Leader of the Opposition of the day went .along with it,because he could not bring up any good arguments against it.Because in his experience, which was pretty extensive, in his experience of Parliarnents,both in the House of Commons and other places in the world,and when he was External Affairs Minister he knew, he told me frank!~, he knew the only way that you were going to get the private member really involved in the operation of Legislature, especially as it applied to the budget - the Throne Speech debate, is another thing, the Budget Speech debate is another thing, legislation is another thing.

And we might hav~ to look to getting committees established to examine the legislation too, not only the budget. That is the next step. 2229

April 14, 1983 Tape 1013 PR - 2 PREMIER PECI<FORD: There might be some reform ~eeded there. A bill comes in, gets first reading then it -is referred to q. Cormnittee of the House for more debate and elaboration 1 and then the cormni tte .e brings in a report, then it comes back to the House for a finite period of time to be debated by the whole House, then: .it is either passed by the majority or it is rejected by the majority of the members and on you go to the next piece of legislation. T.hat might be the next step that we need to take to get the private member more involved.

But I think it is a crucial, crucial issue, ~d I do not think we play games with it. I think we are master of our own rules, we are master of our own House; it is the Legislature bf Newfoundland and Labrador, .we are the legislators, we make the laws, we make the changes to our own behavioux and how this place is going to operate over the next few years. So we should take it seriously and not lightiy. And I,for one, Mr. Chairman, have been conv .inced, since I came into the H:ouse in 1972, that with the reforms we made in 1979 together, 2230

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1014 JV - l PREMIER PECKFORD: W.e made them together, the Opposition and the Government , we made them together when there was a larger Opposition, that we were making significant steps towards making this place work a lot better than it had worked in the past and we have had some very miserable experiences, as I have said. Meeting all night long and all this sort of thing, it gets into an awful situation that nobody really wants. MR. HODDER: We should go back to it. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, we should not go back to it. I think the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) is totally wrong.

And then, Mr. Chairman, let me just get a little political for a minute. Just imagine the audacity of the member for Port au Port complaining about - well, he has got to do this and he has delegations coming in from his district. His first commitment now tha .t the House is open, the Le_gislature is open'· and n.e as _a member of the Legislature, is to participate in the workings of the Le .gislature . That is what the hon. member was elected to do and 'he is making - complaints .

He has all summer to do his researches, shadow membe~ from the statements that are made by the minister that he is shadowing and all Fall and Winter. Yle are only open --we are open now more than we ever were . This Legislature was opened more last year than any other year,I think, since Confederation. Talking about democrac~ here is a majority government over here - 44 to s~ and ~ight after our mandate of 44 to BT we have five years to go before we go to the people again. t-1hat did we do in the first year; Right after our mandate April 6th, we kept the House open longer than any other time since Confederation.

That is democracy for you,Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2231

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1014 JV - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : That is derrio ·cracy for you. That is not bad. vl e introduced the Fall session that had not been around for quite awhi:le ,to deal wit~ legislation. The hon. member knows bette ·r than to get up here_ I mean if there were any columnists in Newfoundland who just had a colUffin ·,and it was a political column,and really listened to what the hon. member said, tomorrow morning in the paper he would be cut up in tiny pieces for what he just said. He 'is getting paid well .. Perhaps he should get paid more but restraint is on.

He is getting paid well and making excuses ·~ 9:30 '.is too la,te, people might want to go to bed early. Can you imagine? The House of Commons is open just about every night. Why cannot we have a committee 'of the Legislature open at 9:30 to deal with ·some es :timates for an hour or so, before you have your cup of tea: and go to bed ? And making excU:Ses about dele :gations ·and they are busy shadowing and all the rest of it. Just imagine if the Prenii:er of the Province: or a minist ·er who has a heavy portfolio got up and made excuses like, ' I am too . . busy. 'They would be cut up in little pieces.

It is good there are no good col 'umnists in this Province 1 because the hon. member for Port au •Port .woUld be cut up in small little pieces tomorrow in the paper. MR. WARREN: PREMIER PECI<FORD :· Like you were last week. o ~a y ·, it is not 2232

April 14, 1983 Tape 1015 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: perfect, but instead of just criticizing and going back to what did not work, let us put suggestions on the table of how the system can work better. Let us not just go back and bring it all back to Committee of .the Whole where it was before. No, make changes to it. Make changes to it. Amend it, modify it and so on. That is what we need to do. MR. STAGG: - Turn up at the odd meeting. PREMIER PECKFORD: Turn up at the odd meeting. And, Mr.

Chairman, as far as research, as the shadow ministers go, I have to say, I mean, I frankly have got to say, as one member of the Legislature, that if the questions emanating from the other side of the House by the shadow Opposition members is evidence of research,well, boy, I am_going to guarantee you right now they have a problem. Because I have not heard very many questions from hon. members opposite which showed that they had done very much research before they asked the question. It is taken out of The Daily News the same day, very often. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea!, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Taken out of '!he Pa:i.ly NeWs the same day. You do not do your research, Most of you over there do not do your research,and do not tell me you do. Now and then, from time to time, you will f~nd one hon, member who seems to have done a bit of :res-earch on something. Now and then, lately, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) seems to nave done a little bit of. work, you know, he has come a long way in the last little while.

The han. the member fo;r Tornga,t Mountains h?l.s come a long way s:i.nce ne carne into th:i.s House and he seems committed, ded:i,c?~,ted and it seems like he is doing a little bit of homework. SOME ' HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2233

April 14, 1983 Tape 1015 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Times have changed. People are not going to put up with the foolishness that the hon. the member for LaPoile, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) gets on with. They are out of date, they are obsolete. The member for Torngat (Mr. Warren) knows that, that is why he is doing it a bit differently. They are not going to put up with this little ping-pong dialogue and shallow'kind of stuff to try to slip up somebody one day, they want to look at substance, you know. There is a wisdom out there.

The member for LaPoile - I mean, I have a bit of sympathy for the member for LaPoile because he comes from the old school. But there is a new school, that is why he is over there and I am over here, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear!. PREMIER PECKFORD: And the quicker he learns, the better. But I do not think the Leader of the Opposition - I think he is going to retire anyway;and, you know, he has been a colourful politician around here for the last decade. So, you know, no problem, that is okay. But the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), I would say, wants to stay around a little bit longer.

And if he is not careful, the member for Port au Port, and the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) who does absolutely no research - and here is the fishery: the research that the member for Fogo has shown when he asks questions of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), every time the Minister of Fisheries answered a question so far this year, I think he has tied the member for Fogo up in knots. Not one day has the member for Fogo been able to win on Question Period. MR . DOYLE: That is right. PREMIER PECKFORD: So if they are not careful, the member for Torngat Mountains, especially - 2234

April 14, 1983 Tape 1015 EC - 3 f.1R . BAIRD: Will be their next leader. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. The member for Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) and a couple of the other members over there, if the member for Eagle River (Mr . Hiscock) would turn up now and then, will completely pass by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) and the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) just like that - v-r-o-o-m! Gone ! 2235

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1016 SD - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CHAIRMAN: PREMIER PECKFORD: And that is what is going to happen. The hon. member's time has elapsed. But let us look at the process and let us try to make it work better. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, the old school that the hon. the Premier refers to is the school of practical experience and common sense. Now,that is the old school. The old school is build and reform and revoluntionize.

That is the old school the hon. gentleman talks about. Build roads, build schools, build hospitals, start industries and develop our natural resources, that is the old school. Now,what is the new school? The new school is one course of failure after another. That is the new school. So there is a big difference, Mr. Chairman, in the new school and the old school. The new school is confrontation. The new school is disagree with every~ody, argue, do not agree with anything, blame things on somebody else, do nothing, sit back and argue and fight. That is the new school.

The old school is the good old days when things are moving in this Province, when natural resources are being developed, the fishery · is prosperous, the mining communi ties are prosperous, . the pulp and paper industry is prosperous, people are working, cons·truction workers: can find jobs. Now tha.t ·is the old school the hon. gentleman was just talking about and I will leave it to hon. members to decide for themselves which is the superior way of do~ng things.

Is it to have a whole string of failures behind you, to have a bad track record, to do nothing, to be conde~ed by everybody, to turn th .e construction work.e .rs against 2236

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1016 so -2 MR. NEARY: you, turn the teaehers against you, turn the nurses against you, turn the people who live in mining communities against you, turn the people who live in Corner Brook and in the fishing communities like Burin1 turn them against you, turn fishermen against you, turn fish plant workers against you? Is that the new way of doing things, Mr. Chairman? MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: That is the new way. Well,I wquld prefer the old way mysel~ -common sense, straight common sense, experience, maturity and common sense. MR. TOBIN: You have neither one or the other. 2237

..!_ April 14,1983 Tape No. 1017 ah-1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman should be the last person to stand in this House,in his place,and lecture my hon. colleague about his attendance in the legislature. The hon. gentleman is out of his seat again now because he cannot stand criticism. Mr. Chairman, every day,and I am sure the press must observe it and people who sit in the public gallery must observe that the moment the Question Period is over , the Oral Question Period is finished, the Premier scoots out of the House,down to his office.

And then he turns on the PA system and he kicks his feet up, he lays back in his office on the eight floor and listens to the proceedings of the House from the eight floor,instead of being in his seat in this hon. House. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, hon. members did not hear me interrupt the Premier when ~e was speaking and I would trust that I am entitled to the same courtesy. Now let us look at the Committee system. I attended a meeting last night and there were nine Tories at that meeting and one Opposition member.

This morning I was down in the Colonial Building,when we put the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan} in the hot seat,and there 'were seven Tories and one Opposition member for the longest time,and then my colleague from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren} arrived and that made two of us. Now how does the system work, Mr.Chairman~ At the beginning of these meetings the Chairman stated that each member would be entitled .to ten minutes and the minister would be entitled to answer after each member had spoken. So let us take this morning's meeting, six of us down in the Colonial Building, six Tories.

That meant that the Tories would have six ten minute slots , that is sixty minutes, and I .as an Opposition member would get ten minutes. 2238

April 14,1983 MR . HEARN: seven down there,too. MR. NEARY : Tape No . 1017 ah-2 You had the right to have Mr . Chairman, I did not have the right to have se ven down there. And that is the way it would work, they would get one hour #And in the meantime, the minister would answer each one of the m 1 so that would be sixty minute s for the Tory backbenchers and sixty minute s for the minister, one hundred and twenty minutes, and the Leader of the Opposition would get ten minutes. Now, Mr . Chairman , is that fair? That is the way this system works . And what did the Tories do?

Unlike the old system in this House,when the estimates were on the floor of this House, when members over here,and my hon. learned friend sitting across from me was over here, he would remember the old syste .m and he should be able to make a comparison ,hecause the hon . gentleman was a real chaw-bag when we were doing the estimates in this House . 2239

April 14, 1983 Tape 1018 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: He asked some very penetrating questions, very penetrating questions, and scrutinized the estimates like you would not believe, Mr. Chairman, but you cannot do that today. This morning and last night what the Chairman did , he said, we will have a general discussion on the Minister's Salary and we will call all of the items first-and all of the items were called.

Just very mechanical, just aall them all-and then we will go back to the Minister's Salary and we will have a philosophical discussion, we will talk about ideology and we will talk about everything under the sun, but you cannot ask questions about the items in the estimates. Now, Mr. Chairman, under the old system the estimates were not hid away in the board room, the estimates were debated, the Budget was scrutinized item by item on the floor of this House. And that is the way it should be, Mr. Chairman.

Because hon. members know that once you remove the power of the purse from the Legislature, the House of Assembly has --lost whatever little bit of ~ it had. ·--" .. -. -~· --· - MR. TOBIN: When was that? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I told the han. gentleman this rrorning, that I believe it is Mrs. M::Bride who is runni-r:.a -- ....... - a course on self-improvement,on etiquette and good manners 1 and I would suggest to the hhn. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) that he go and take that course, because I do not think Dale Carnegie could do anything for him. MR.

TOBIN: Go back to your bed on Waterford Bridge Road. MR . STAGG: (Inaudible) in March 1972. MR. TOBIN: Go back to your boarding house on Waterford Bridge Road. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the old system was far-superior to what we have now. We had an opportunity to ask questions under each subhead and the 224D

April 14, l983 Tape 1018 PK - 2 NR. NEARY: press could cover,the ·media could cover the questions and the answers,could cover the Bouse. Now it is virtually impossible. It is virtually impossible for the eyes and ears of the people ,which is the media,to .attend these Committee meetings and to report to the people of this Province . It is shambles, Mr. Chairman, the whole thing is just a complete farce. I can understand hon. gentlemen beip g in their glee about it,because they are getting away with murder, they are getting a free ride on the estimates.

They _ have the estimates removed from the floor of the House and put into the various board rooms, down in the old Colonial Building and so forth and so on, and that is no way, · Mr . Chairman, to examine the estimates in the great detail in which they should be examined. Now, Mr. Chairman, I know the government have no intention of living up to their commitment that they made when they changed the rules of this House. When the rule changes we:re brought in the then Government House Leader, who is the present Government House Leader,made a commitment in writing that after a year 2241

April 14, 1983 Tape No . 1019 MJ - l MR. S. NEARY: the rule changes would be viewed and if they were not working,then punstantive changes would be made. The government, so far, have not lived up to that commitment and the net result of it 1 Mr. Chairman, is that the estimates are going through as fast as clock work with no real examination,even though my colleagues have done their utmost to try to keep things under control. Mr. Chairman, they have provided yeoman service to the people of this Province, There are only eight of us. You know, Mr. Chairman, · do you know what it is like? It is like two hockey teams.

These committees and this House arejust like two hockey teams. One has forty-four members 1 the other team has eight members, now how can you win, Mr. Chairman? And in some cases with the committees, committees where you have nine Tories and one Opposition member, not only do you have to play nine members,but you also have to play the referee. How can you win, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, so they can get up and crow all they like. We know what they are up to now,they are trying to stall on Legislative so we will not get to Executive Council to find out about the Premier's luxurious apartment down in Tiffany Place.

They do not want us to get to that, they want to use up the time now on Legislative. Well, if we are go~ng to use the time on Legislative 1 let us talk about something sensible. One of the sensible :i,terns that I want to talk about is the location of the Parliamentary Press Gallery in this House. I was rather disappointed recently that I did not get the support of the government ±n asking to have the Parliamentary Press Gallery located in the center of the House instead of up over my head where the media representatives are gawking down at the government side of the House, day in and day out. MR.

HOUSE: Why did you not put it there in the first place? 2242

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1019 MJ -2 MR. CHAIRMAN(McNicholas): Order,please! Order, please! MR. F. STAGG: Mr. Chairman . .t-ffi. CHAIRMAN (r.tNicholas) : The hon. the member for Steph.enville, MR. STAGG: The ritualistic speech. that we have just heard from the Leader of the Opposition {Mr. Neary) is reminiscent of his attacks on this committee system when it was introduced in 1979. But I would like to qq back a few years beyond that,.because e·ven though :r may appear to be very youthful I do qo back a fair distance in this Assembly. ~s a matter of fact, I qo back to 1972,which is some eleven years ago, and at time the estimates were debated entirely in the Rouse. 2243

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1020 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: Initially there was no limit on debate. The only limit that eventually was placed on the tongues of hon. members opposite was one of attrition, whereby the House stayed open morning, afternoon, night, early morning, and so on. We had these twenty-four hour sessions and so on that were very counter-productive. And who were the people doing all the speaking during that time? Well, I can name them. They are the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), he was relatively junior then.

At that stage he had only had one year of experience ten t±mes, now he has been here for twenty years,he has one year of . experience twenty times. So he has refined it somewhat, but it does not get any better just because he repeats himself. But the member for Bell Island, as he then was, because he scurried out of Bell Island there in 1975 when they wised up, the people Bell Island wised up. Anyway he was prominent in the debate­ he was not prominent in the party at the time, but he was prominent in the debate.

The then Leader of the Opposition, who is now the former, former, former Leader of the Opposition, once removed, he was prominent in the debate. He is the member for the Strait of Belle isle (Mr. Robertst. The then member for White Bay South, who was the Government House Leader at the time, he was prominent in the debate, and that was about it. The member for Labrador North - MR. HODDER: Go back and watch your hockey game. MR. STAGG: - the member for Labrador North, he was in the debate but he was not prominent. Now,the member for Port au ' Port (_Mr. Hodder) is up to his usual tricks here.

He is talking about the hockey games that I attended in Stephenville over the last couple of days,and he has attempted to indicated that in some '2244

April 14 , 19 83 Tape No. 1020 NM ... 2 MR. ST AGG: way I was shirking my duties to the Province by being out there .supporting the Stephenville team as they attempted to bring tb.e Allen Cup to Newfoundland and bringing honour upon the Province and upon the town. SOME HON~ MEMBERS: .oh, oh! MR. STA GG : The member 'for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder)_ 1 who by th.e way is a terrible athlete, the member for Port au Port has no athletic ability whatsoever, so anyone who exhibits either athletic ability or interest . ih athletics he cast .s aspersions on them.

But anyway I am going to make sure that the people of tl:le area know that th.e men!ber for Port au Port thoug~t that I should have been in here rather than out there. And he may be called upon to explain it. 2245

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1021 SD - l MR. STAGG: Anyway, I was dealing with the Estimates as they were debated from 1972 until 1979. It was not productive, Mr. Chairman. I was Deputy Speaker of the House at the time and Chairman of Committees. We reformed _the rules, I believe it was in 1973, to make the limit seventy-five hours. And I recall being in the Chair for almost all of the seventy-five hours. The Assistant Chairman of Committees was reluctant to participate to such an extent as I did,because I thoroughly enjoyed the cut and thrust of it at the time.

Anyway, I suppose I was in the Chair for sixty of the seventy-five hours and I was witness to the'productivity', I put that in quotes, that the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) now reminisces about. It was not productive, Mr. Chairman. All we had was a group of speeches, speechifying, familiar speeches. As a matter of fact, the speeches were so repetitive that there is now a rule in our Rules of Procedure which does away with needless repetition.

There was so much needless repetition in an attempt to use up the seventy-five hours, that Wfi! now have a rule , , that is designed to sit a member down if he is involved with needless repetition. As a matter of fact, I recall with great glee sitting the member for Hermitage, I believe it was, who is now temporarily in the House of Commons, Mr. Simmons -. He was notorious for his needless -repetition. The hon. gentleman was needless · in many respects,but his repetition was even more needless than. other aspects of his existence.

But I recall having to sit him down on numerous occasions which, of course, did not go over too well with him. But this is the sort of thing that we were confronted with over these many years. And in 1979 the committees came in. r· sat out froill 19.75 until 1979 1 but it came back into the House of As _sell)b.ly · in 19.79.. 2246

April 14, 1983 Tape No .. l021 SD - 2 MR. STAGG: And I must say that the committees initially, at least, had the whole-hearted participation of hon. members opposite. Now,there were eighteen of them then - AN HON. MEMBER: Nineteen. MR. STAGG: -seventeen, eighteen, nineteen - they fluctuated from time to time.-but I believe there were eighteen of them. They worked fairly hard. There was one notorious exception from this hard work -well, there were a couple of notorious exceptions actually. The present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) boycotted the proceedings right from the beginning.

And I believe that-let me see, we have had 1979,'80,'81,'82,'83, so this is the fifth year that we have had the Estimates debated in the committees and I believe he is making his first appearance this year. So he is a relative novice to it. He boycotted it for a number of years., so.he does not know what he is talking about. ~m. HODDER: He appeared last year in Social Services. MR. STAGG: He appeared last year. He made one appearance last year, did he not? So this was not his maiden appearance this year. 2247

A,pril 14, 1983 Tape 1022 EC - 1 MR. STAGG: He is a sophomore now. He is not a freshman, he is a sophomore. The hon. member realizes that he cannot dominate one of these Committees in the same way that he can dominate the House so he is not in favour of them. Anything he cannot dominate he is not in favour of it. And the metamorphosis of the member for Stephenville - or the member for Port au Port, (Mr. Hodder) MR. HODDER: (Inaudible), MR. STAGG: Yes, well, I do not know if I am planning to resign or not. MR. HODDER: You may have to. MR.

STAGG: Yes, well, I will give the hon. member- I have invited the hon. member to that on many occasions. But I think of him as the member for Stephenville because he lives in Stephenville, he does not live in his district. MR. SIMMS: One of your constituents. -· - ·~ MR. STAGG: He is one of my constituents, yes. MR. HEARN: Does he vote for you? MR. STAGG: Yes. In any event, I recall having conversations with him,and he is on record in the House as having said what a wonderful system the Committee system is. AN HON. ME.MBER: Yes? MR.

STAGG: I have talked to him privately and he has mentioned many times what a wonderful system it is~ MR. HODDER: Not true. MR. STAGG: Not true? It is not true that" the hon. member said that to roe? MR. HODDER: Not true. MR. STAGG: I am lying, in other words. MR. WARREN: 'It is not true,' he said. 2248

April 14, 1983 Tape 1022 EC - 2 MR. STAGG: You are saying that you did not speak to me indicating that the Committee system was a considerable advantage? MR. WARREN: 'It is not true,' he said. MR. STAGG: Not true. Oh, not true. Okay. Well, I am saying that the hon. member either has.a very poor memory or he is deliberately mistaking what he said. So the han. member, I allege, is on the record as having been in favour of the Committee system. Now this year, suddenly he is against it. Well, that is a familiar turn of events for members of the Liberal Party. MR. HOUSE: He is following his leader now. MR.

STAGG: Following his leader, yes. His leader, by the way, seems to put a great deal of faith in Dale carnegie -'That is not the way Pale Ca~negie wou1d do it. ' Well, we had a fellow who made a living with the Dale Carnegie system who ran for election here in st. John's in_ March, 1972. MR. CHAIRMAN (MCNICHOLAS): Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. ~TAGG: His one and only foray into the political field and he did not make it. So we on this side do not have too much faith in the Dale Carnegie as far as it comes to making a success of politicians. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please!

The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to speak on this particular issue1but since it has been raised I do want to make a few remarks about it. First of all let me say that when the idea 2249

April 14 , 1983 MR . LOSH : SOME HON. MEMBE RS : Tape No . 1022 and the suggestions - Oh , oh ! IB -3 MR. LOSH: Mr . Chairman, I was just waiting until - but it gave me a chance to collect my thoughts. When the idea and the notion was presented to bring about the parliamentary reform in this l:iouse , I was all for it . Naturally I am all for parliamentary reform and any change in rules and regulations which \.,.ill refine the op ·eration of the House , And any moves that will put it more in tune with the times, then certainly I am all for it. At that particular time 225U

April 14,1983 Tape No. 1023 ah-1 MR. LUSH: I certainly gave my approval for parliamentary reform and the rules as they were introduced to our caucus at the time. I will say though there were a couple of understandings that I accepted this with, one being that it was my clear understanding that it was for a trial period, that we were going to initiate this for sometime. I do not know exactly what it was.I have heard the Leader of the Opposition say it was for one year.

That is not clear in my mind but the only thing that is clear in my mind is that it was to be for a period of time and then it would be reviewed again and if we found that some of the rules were not working we would make the necessary changes. Also , of course, we were not able to forsee,naturally,what would happen. That is always the difficulty when you try to initiate change or set up any kind of policy. We are not prophets,we can only work with the wisdom that we have and very often we make mistakes.

Now,one of the things that we did not forsee was that the Opposition at one point in time would be down to the numbers they are now. And, Mr. Chairman, that is what makes the committee system in particular rather difficult. I think some of the changes with respect to the length of time and this sort of thing,were good changes.

I do not object to these now.but the only thing that I do find a little bit out of order right now,or a little bit unsatisfactory is probably the better word,is the committees because we are down to eight people and that does not give us a lot of bodies to be able to spread around to the various committees to do the kin~ of indepth study that should be done on these committees. The other thing is, Mr.

Chairman, I think if the government were a little bit flexible and had a little bit of understanding, I think that maybe the process as it now is could be a little more workable, and I refer to the scheduling, if 2251

.. AprH 14,1983 Tape No . 1023 ah -2 .MR .LOSB : it could be arranged where we had one committee per day or every second day. You know, there is no rush to get through these estimates but for some reason or other the government sees a necessity to rush , doing two committees a day and doing committees every day .

I think if there was some understanding on the part of the go vernment in this respect, if they really wanted these estimates to be done in a thorough rnanner ,and understanding the fact that the Opposition now is a much smaller OP.position than we have been accustomed to,when we were eighteen or nineteen- .MR .TOBIN : That is not our fault .

MR .LUSH: The hon . members can say it is not their fault but ,again,if they were really concerned for the people of this Province , if they wanted the people of this Province to know what is happening with the fiscal and the financial policy of this Province , they wou ld certainly make the app ropriate 2252

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1024 MR. LUSH: arrangements to ensure that the estimates were debated thoroughly, and that the people of this Province would know what is going on. NM - 1 Now, Mr. Chairman, again they can talk about the Kansard. Now,how widely published, or circulated I should say, is the Hansard~ Not very many people get a hold of this Hansard,and when it comes out it is six or seven months old. And I think we have to - the han. the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) tries to make light of the fact that t~ere is no press present and it is not necessary because we have a Hansard. Well, Mr.

Chairman, that is not the notion that people accept about parLiaments today. Why is it that many parliaments are having their proceedings televised? It is so that the people can see what is going on. So, Mr. Chairman, where we do not have that kind of exposure it is certainly incumbent upon the government to ensure that at least they have made things as easy for the press as they can. ,And we realize today that many of the media people are not over supplied with personnel and it puts a bit of a burden on these people as well to attend all of the committees.

And certainly we have to take into consideration,also,the consideration of the press,whether or not we are not making the

schedule too tight for these people to come and cover the Rouse, and whether by qoing two and three committees a day, along with the House, whether we are just not presenting too much to be reported. But,of course, again that is what the government want,I guess. They do not want this stuff to get reported so they are showing no ·understaning, Mr. Speaker, or no inclination, or no propensity towards ensuring that the public will be informed of what takes place in this hon. House. And as ,' I have said before, some members may differ, some people 2253

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1024 W!1 ~ 2 MR. LUSH.: ~orne peoplenay think that the estimates should be discussed on thi..s floor,. I do not know that I am so strong on that point. But I would certainly like for the provision to be nade for flexible scheduling, scheduling that will give members the time to study and do the necessary research,and also to make the sche:duling such a way that it will also be convenient with pressnerobers to attend the meetings. And I think these are concerns, Mr. Chairman, that should be heeded by this government, that should be taken into consideration very, very seriously.

And when an Opposition has eighteen or nineteen people,well, then,I do not think it is so difficult because you have more people to spread around..,. But , also, we still have to be mindful about the position of the press. That does not help their position and I think we have to be, if we want the people.of this Province to be infor~ed, if we want what is discussed in this House, if we want the people of this Province to know about the 2254

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1025 MJ - 1 MR. T.

LUSH: policies of this Province, then I think we should make every effort to ensure th.a t the scheduling is flexible so that we can allow these people sufficient time to get into these meetings without making it too burdensome and too aw~d.And,after all1 that should be the desire of every government, to try and open up the process so that the people of the Province will know in detail what has transpired in their particular Parliament-And that certainly should be our motive and it should be our desire ,to ensure that we make th.e House as accessible as possible to the press,and certainly to ensure that hon. members are given sufficient time to study and research the estimates that they have to deal with, So, Mr.

Chairman, I guess what I am saying can be summed up from two points of view one,that I think that the government should consider now the position of the diminished Opposition, the diminished numbers that we have,and certainly appreciate the fact that with eight members we cannot have,all of these Committees going on simultaneously or too close together, ~nd,Secondly, the consideration for the press so that they can give these committees and the House the kind of coverage that both deserve1and inform our people so that they can know what is going on financially, can know what the public policies of this government are.

And that,. Mr, Chairman, is what we should be doing. All hon. mernbers,should want to inform our public so that they know what is t~king place. That certainly has to be a major consideration of any government, So, Mr. Chairman, it is not so much that the rules are all that bad, as I have said before MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. LUSH: -it is.a matter of the government being a little bit more flexib.le. 2255

April 14, 1983 Tape No, 1025 MJ - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (M:::Nicholas) : The han. the mertlber' s t.i;me has elapsed. MR. T. LUSH: Mr . Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. LUSH: If I could just finish two words, By leave. By leave, Tt is a matter of the government being a little more flexible and a little more understand.l;ng, and have a little more desire for"the people of th.i;s Province to know what :i,s taking :Place in these chamber;:;. SOME HON. ~ERS: MR. T. RIDEOUT: MR,. CHAIRMAN: White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Hear, hear! Mr, Chairman, The han. the member for Ba,ie Verte - Mr.

Chairman, ;r would li,ke to have a word or two to say on the topic that is being discussed here this afternoon. As a matter of tact, Mr. Chairman, I think it is a very pro~uctive debate that we are having on the procedures underwhich we examine the expenditures of this Province. MR. s. NEARY: You are trying to interrupt, MR. RIDEOUT: I a,m not trying to interrupt anything, Mr. Chairman, If nobody from the Oppostion ., had spoken the last time I would n~t be on my feet, as a matter of fact 1 I would have been quite happy to go to the next qead and get into that.

But there we~~ some points made by the han, gentleman who just took his seat that I think ought to be answered byus on this side of the House. Now, as a matter of fact, Mr; Chairman, the government did 1 last year when we welie striking those Estimate Committees, consider very carefu11y the diminished numbers of the Opposition . It is true that during the last House there were seventeen or eighteen and I think 2256

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1026 JV - l MR. RIDEOUT: the numbers then on those committees were three Opposition members and four Government members. And we took that into consideration very carefully last year when we were considering striking those committees again.

As a matter of fact, I believe most of the committees now are manned by.two Opposition members and four1and in some cases five,backbenchers from the government side.so we have taken into account the diminished numbers on the other side and we have provided extra numbers from this side of the House so that the Opposition would not be bound to have three people on all those committees and thereby heighten and make the burden too great for them to bear. So the government has been very, very flexible, Mr.

Chairrnan,in trying to improve the lot of the Opposition so that they could man those committees,and so that those committees "could remain and be the effective tools that they have been since they were started in this House back in l979. So it is not right, it is just not a fact for people on the other side to be able to say that the government has not been flexible, that the government has not done anything about helping the Opposition,because of their diminished numbers to improve and carry out the duties which, of course, remain the role of the Opposition.

There were a few other things mentioned today as well, Mr. Chairman. I heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr~ Neary)-and it really boils me to a degree how the Leader of the Opposition can get up and say something that is not a fact and nobody seems to pickup and say anything about it. Now,anybody who went to the Estimates Committee last night knows,and the Opposition Leader made this 2257

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1026 JV - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: statement in the House a few minutes ago,that he spent 120 minutes last night,because there were seven or eight government members there and then the minister had so much time to reply, that he spent 120 minutes and could not get invoived in the thrust of debate and examining the estimates. Mr. Chairman, it is just not a fact .. There was one person, one government member who spoke at that Estimates Committee hearing last ·nigh~ And do you know the only other member of the House besides the minister responding who spoke? It was the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary). He had the whole night to himself. He could have asked what he liked, ' .. I assume he did, he could have made any statement he wanted to make, he could have done what he liked, and he did it. But then the same hon. gentleman, just to be critical 1 can get up in the House today and say, and I suppose expect not to be brought to task, get up and say that with all the array of government members there it is a total waste of time, you have got to wait an hour, or over an hour before you can get to ask a question, before you can get to make a point. That is just not a fact and, Mr.

Chairman, I, for one, cannot stand by and allow that kind of statement to stand on the public record without it being corrected. The only point that I did hear today, that I think bears looking at, and I am sure it has financial implic~tions,was the point made by the hon. gentleman from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) with regard to the Hansards for committee hearings. 2258

April 14, 1983 Tape 1027 PK - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: It 1s a fact, because the Hansard people have to do the Hansard of the House on a daily basis, that those Hansards are done later on, I suppose, after the House closes, and I agree. I agree that is a problem and I do not know if something can be done about that without incurring a heavy financial burden that we obviously cannot affo~d at this period of time in our history to incur.

But I agree that is a problem and I would like to see something done about that,because it is good for all cof us if,within a reasonable period of time, the Hansards could be available so that, you know, they are available for whatever you might want them for. Now, Mr. Chairman, I just want to make another couple of points. I sat in today for a half an hour or forty-five minutes or so on a Committee meeting, and I do that periodically if I have a break down in the office.

If I have it on and they are up here in the House,I come up every now and then, and sometimes I participate,but I just come to see what is happening at those meetings. This is talking about the role of government members now on those Committees. i :o::1earl., the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and the member for Port au Port (Mr . Hodder), were up calling them dodos and dummies, sitting down for hours and never opening their mouths or anything else. Again that is a statement that cannot be substantiate ;d.

I was here sitting back quietly in the backbenches this morning for half an hour or forty-five minutes,while the Minister of Municipal Affairs lMr. Newhook) was doing her estimates ~efore the appropriate Committee of this Hous _e, and all the while I was here there was an Opposition member here.,. He could h.ave participated but he did not choose to at the time I was here.All the while 2259

April 14, 1983 Tape 1027 PK - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: I was here the questions were being asked by government members~ there were two who participated while I was there.There were questions about the vote for fire prevention equipment, about the emergency flooding vote, there were questions about everything. The member for Windsor-Buchans (McLennan) and the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow) were participating back and forth asking very penetrating questions, getting very excellent answers from the minister~ And,you know, it is just not a fact, it cannot be substantiated that the government members go to those Committees and just sit down and let the estimates slide through. There were very, very penetrating, very good questions asked by the government mernbers .as I have seen it over the last two or three years on those Committees. So those kinds of statements, Mr. Chairman, just cannot be substantiated and you cannot allow them to be made and nobody say anything about them.

And the last point that I want to make is that, yes, I have been in this House,too 1 since 1975 and I have seen the old way and I have seen the new way. I saw more than one year when there were only one or two departments passed in this Hous~ by the -time the seventy-five hour rule was up. As a matter of fact, it occurred year after year. As a matter of fact, Mr . Chai~an, there were hours and hours , day and night · spent on Minister's Salaries. And I bet you, Mr. Chairman, from ]975 to 1979 1 95 per cent of the Budget went through without even getting off the Minister's Salary.

Now,that is what happened. so there was no chance to ask ministers questions about what this vote was for,or to take ministers to task ,or the ministry to task on whether that money was appropriately spent, it was just one political rhetorical debate after another. Minister's 2260

April 14, 1983 Tape 1027 PK - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: Salary, that was it. I remember one year ,on the Minister of Forestry, I believe we spent twenty-one hours and never got off the Minister's Salary 1 Head No. I. 2261

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1028 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: Thirty-two hours in Education one year. MR. RIDEOUT: T.hirty-two in Education one year. And I would submit, Mr. Chairman, that none of us who participated in that exercise .- I would submit to you and to this House that none of us who participated in that exercise did any benefit to the people who sent us here. It was no benefit to those people that we spent twenty-five hoursandthirty hours and never got past the minister's salary. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Could I interrupt the hon. member for a minute? This being Thursday and 5:00 p.m.

I wish to announce that the member for Torngat Mountains (_Mr. Warren} was not .satisfied with the question re health care services in Labrador, a question referred to the Minister of Health (Mr. House) which will be on the Late Show today at 5:30 p.m. MR. WARREN: The answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: He is not satisfied with health care in Labrador, not satisfied with the answer. Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: The han. member for Baie Mr. Chairman, I basically made my points and in closing I just want to - again we are talking about the way the House works and talking about the decorum of the Hause and so on.

I remember las ·t week - nat last week, of course, we. were. not open, but the week before talking about the Late Shows. Of all the disgruntlement and all the anger that the Oppositi ,on was talking about, the week before we closed for Easter there was not one question on the Late Show. Today with all the pr~~J.ems, you know, with th .e. teachers' wi thdr .awal . of services, the teachers' strike and all of that, again 2262

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1028 SD - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: we have two slots on the Late Show not being taken advantage of by the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, I say it is a shame. It is a shame that time provides for it, the rules provide for it. The people of the Province are expecting those people whom they have elected in the Opposition to do their duty and, Mr. Chairman, they are simply not doing their duty under the rules of this House. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to say a few words in this debate.

I would take a little bit of exception to the last remarks of the member for Baie Verte - White .Bay. About two weeks ago there was a question on the Order Paper and the Speaker carne and asked me, because the question was two weeks old - the budget had been brought down in the meantime, therefore the question was two weeks old and that was why I withdrew it. So that is the reason . Now, Mr. Chairman, we are talking about the workings of the committees.

Now to show that we are not afraid to have differences of opinion within our Party, I believe that - now I have only been here since 1979 and I do not know how the old system worked. In fact, I do not care how the old system worked. But I do care how this system works and this system can work better than it is work~ng. This is a good system but it can work better. And, Mr. Chairman, in response to what the Premier was say ·ing earlier, the Premier said that maybe we would make modifications to this system. 2263

April 14, 1983 Tape No. 1029 IB-1 MR. WARREN: I believe that the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the Government House Leader, could have given a better response and could have come up with a better working of the Committee this year. To me I find the Committee works good, but the unfortunate part of the working of the Committee is when there are two Committees meeting at the same time. Now, I have heard this from government mernbers 1 that they are attending one Committee meeting- take,for example 1when the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) had his Committee meeting here,.

Because I had some good questions, I hope they were good questions, some concerns I wanted to express to the Minister of Justice,naturally I came here. But there was another Committee meeting on at the same time. It was one o