Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 86B (35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-86b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 868 • 8 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 21,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVI: ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglsllature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOC K, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CAR STAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH UN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALP INE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZN IK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conr ad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompsc•n Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Roso Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Con cordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. Jame�; Lakeside Charle swood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescen twood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norber1 Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Greek Brandon West Assiniboia River Eas1t Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan Rive•r Rossmere Rupertsland The Maples PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4514 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 21,1993 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent sections) EDUCATION AND TRAI NING Mr. Deputy Chai rperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good evening. Will the Com mittee of Supply please come to order. This evening, this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will re sume consid erat ion of the Estima tes of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 4.(h )(1 )(

a) on page 40 of the Estimates book. Mr. Ji m Malo way (E lm wood) : Mr. De pu ty Chairperson, I would like to begin by asking some questions on the Workforce 2000 program. What I would like to get from the minister is the list of consult ants who have been working on the program. Would she have access to such a list? Could she give me more information about the consultants? •

(2005) Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Ed ucation and Training): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do not have a list of the consultants that were used. They were available when the employers who engaged them submitted an invoice, but we have not kept a listing that would be available of exactly who those people are on an ongoing basis because they are engaged by the employer. I can say to the member though that a great deal of the training is delivered by the public sector as we ll. That would be through our com muni ty colleges as one vehicle. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, would the minister endeavour to compile a list for me of the consultants and the amount of contracts in dollars that each one has partaken in? My understanding is that we are talking about a small number of consu ltants here. A consu ltant who has been inv olve d in this program has told me that he personally has put together a couple of these and sold them to the employer, sold the idea to them, and has really taken the thing under his wing and carried it.

So I think it should not be that difficult for the mini ster to pr ovide us with a list of the consult ants who are actively involve d in this program and their list of their clie nts. You know who they are. Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Deputy Cha irperson, I would like to tell the member that this is a huge job he is asking for. There have been over 900 contracts. Within those 900 contracts several are clus tered, in terms of several participants. There may have been 15

part icipa nts for instance within one parti cular con tract . It will req uire going back through the invoices. It will, in fact, be a very major piece of work which the staff will be required to do. Mr. Maloway : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess I would also be interested in knowing the type of training and the results of the training that some of these people have been involved in here. I recall the former member for Rossmere and many others in this House over the years have made some observations about the role of industry, trade and commerce and the role of government subsidies to businesses in general.

I know there are a lot of busi nesses out there who do believe in a level playing field and do not believe that you should be subsidizing one at the expense of another. I do not know if the members in the Conse rvative caucus her e real ly und erstand what this government is doing and whether in fact they would agree with a lot of these monies that are being spent here.

Essentially, at a time of restraint, a time of huge burgeoning government deficits, the go ve rn ment is handing out mone y here to com panies which are, by and large, solvent companies, companie s that are making money and have been around a long time. I would question the validity in the conce pt of giving money to some of these companies. • (201 0) Having said that, I am interested in knowing the type of training and the results of the training that several of these companies have been embarked on. For exam ple , Dai ry Queen is one of the

4515 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 21 , 19 93 compan ies that received a grant.

I do not expect the minister to be able to tell me all of this information right at the moment, but I would be interested in knowing on what basis Dairy Queen qua lifies for a taxpayers' subsidy here for training -stapon 1st realty; Robin's Donuts; Air Manitoba; Arthur Andersen, a very large accounting firm as the minister knows; Bachman and Associates, a very successful real estate firm in town; and several other real estate firms; several insurance firms; several legal firms, for example, Wilder Wilder and Langtry, not a firm that I have ever thought had any financial difficul ties.

I want to say that if a firm plans to train staff and so on, most firms that I know are only too willing to train the staff and embark on those programs. Wilson Furniture, Zipper Courier received fairly large grants. So I would like to know a little bit more about these grants. Now there is one in particular, and I know the members are waiting for me to ask about this one so maybe we should get this one out of the road first. Elmwood Motors has received a grant.

Once again I would be interested in knowing if the minister could determine for me at this moment what the nature of the grant was and whether it was successful in doing what it was designed to do. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the member seems to have some difficu lty with the idea of Workforce 2000 and with the conce pt which is a human resource training concept, and which also is in a partnership.

I can tell the member today, as I have told the House in the past, that when I attended the labour market ministers' meeting in January, the federal minister and all provincial ministers recognized that government alone cannot provide all of the training. There needs to be a sharing and a partnership with the private sector to bring forward some training programs which will assist, No. 1, the employees of that particular firm or business or industry or labour group, so that those people will have improved skills, and with those improved sk ills be able to maintain their position wi thin tha t

part icular organization. That improvement also provides an amount of mobility on behalf of people who are working in those firms or business or industries or labour groups. In addition, it allows for the business, industry or labour group who is the employer to also maintain a compt�titiveness, so that it will have employees working at a skill level in which they are competitive with others across the province or across Canada. So thi:s sharing was certainly an area in which all provinces across Canada showed a recognition and an interest, and Manitoba has moved in that area.

Manitoba has moved, through the Workforce 2000 program, to enter into a sharing of the cost of trainin!::J with employers to the benefit of the people working in the business, industry or labour area as well as to the fir ms, so that th ere is a competitiveness.

I can say to the member that we recognize that Manitoba's economic prosperi ty depends largely on the ability of our business and our industry and labour to compete successfully in the rapidly changing marketplace of the 19 90s. * (2015 ) The member has asked a specific question around Elmwood Motors in addition to a number of others where he has wond ered about the training. I wonder, I guess I would qu estion him to say: Does he have any problem with those people who would work a1t an establishment such as a Dairy Queen or Robin'!� Donuts?

Do those people not deserve the kind of training that would be available? Is there some reason that those individu als should be den ied the opportunity to have a training program in which there is a cost-sharin g? In terms of Elmwood Motors, Elmwood Motors particip ated in a 14 -busi ness training project to unde rtake 11 2 hours of automotive electronics training for one employee. The proje ct was appr oved and the contribution from the employer was $1 ,500. So Elmwood was a participant in a training1 contract; it was one of 14 .

The Elmwood Motor:s emplo yee left the emplo yme nt with Elmwood Motors after the first sessi on. As a conseque nce, Workforce 2000 provided $375 of a total $500 incur red by the emplo yer for one session. The reimbursement was at a 75 percent cost-share between the employer and Workforce 2000 . The employee attended approximately 32 hours of training and then left the employment ·of Elmwo1:>d Motors. The employee continued, that the training was valuable and that he would be continuing on at his own expense. Mr. Malo way: Mr.

Deputy Chair person, could the minister indicate to me the nature of the training that th1� person receive d and also endeavour to

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 451 6 release the contract to us, since this company is no longer in existence evidently? Mrs. Vodrey: The type of training was in the automotive trades, and it focused on comp uterized fuel injection. I would say to the member that the release of the contract is--1 believe the contract is a document which was for our internal use, but if the member has a question about it, I will try and answer that. Mr. Maloway: I have another question on another one of the participants in the progr am. About $3,200 was given to Stress Management Group.

Could you tell me what the Stress Management Group is and the nature of their grant and wha t they did with it? We probably need it around here. Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. Deput y Chair, the Stress Management Group was part of a contract which took place in the year 19 91 -92. Therefore, I do not have available exactly the details of that particular contract. Mr. Maloway: Could the minister then perhaps take this as notice and get back to me at a later point, within reason, of course, with this information as to what the nature of the contract was with this group? Mrs. Vodrey: I will do that. Mr. Mal oway : Mr.

Deput y Ch air, the minister talked about the criteria for the progr am, and I noticed that another group that got a fair amount of money was the pro-life group, got $8,700. Now I thought this was primarily businesses that were suppose d to be eligible for this. What is the pro-life group? •

(2020) Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that we did not fund the pro-life group ; in fact we funded The Prolific Group, and that was a contract, again, in 19 91 -92. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Deputy Chair person, I noticed some financial corporations got grants, Midland Walwyn for one, $1 0,000, and these are, as people know, fairly large securities firms, and I believe there were a couple of other securities firms that receive d the maximum. I believe the maximum was $1 0,0 00 under this progr am.

Once again, I have never thought of Midland Walwyn as requiring subsidies from the taxpayers for anything, for that matter, but I am just wondering what the nature of their grant was and what the results of it have been so far. Mrs. Vodrey: This contract was for comp uterized marketing. It was for a very specialize d type of marketing. It was also done for another similar type of company, and for that company it did result in in cr ease d job crea tion. I am not able to com ment this evening on the incr ease d job creation from this particular firm at this time. Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on: Could I have just a little bit of order. It is getting a little loud here, and I canno t even hear the honourable member for Elmwood or the minister. Mr. Malo way: Mr. De puty Cha irpe rson, in instances where the minister does not have the information tonight, perhaps she could endeavour to get back to me at a later point, within reason, on this for information.

Now I do not intend to go through my comp lete list here tonight because it would take me all night, but suffice to say that there are a lot of well-known companies, well -he eled companies, on this list that could well take care of their own training needs. I do want to ask one last question of the minister. I note that Keystone Ford is on here for a $1 0, 000 grant. I know that par ticular firm is one of the Minister of Finance's favourite companies around town, and he seemed to speak quite highly ofthem.

So I would like to ask the minister what the 20 trainees at Keystone were doing over the past while with this grant? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Ch air , this was to provide training in professional selling skills to 20 existing employees. A total of 16 0 training hours was delivered in five separate fo� r-tr aining-days. The member has asked me to repeat it, and I will . This was to provide training in professional selling ski lls to 20 existing empl oyees. A total of 16 0 training hour s was del ive red in five separate four-day training modules. That was the basis of the training. •

(2025) Mr. Maloway: So I think what the minister is telling me here is that the taxpayers spent $1 0,000 to train car salesmen on how to sell cars. Is that what you are telling me? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deput y Chair, the member seeks to minimize the work that is being done by some individuals in that particular kind of industry. I would tell him that I do not think he should be minimizing the work that Manitobans do. It may not

4517 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 be the work that he chooses to do. The work involves marketing, and it involves leasing. I can say to the member that perhaps he would like to look back on what his government did in the automotive dealerships.

I point to wage assistance for Frontier Toyota, two posi·:ions; I point to Pioneer AMC Je ep Renault, one pos ition; Mc Naught Pontiac Buick Ca dilla c, three positions; Prairie Honda, Portage, one posit ion; King s Pa rk Plymouth Chr ysler, one position; Hyundai Import Centre, one position; Carter Toyota, two positions; Birchw ood Acura, two positions; Edmondson Ch ev-Oi ds, one position; Precision Toyota, one position; Steinbach Dodge Chrysler, one position.

It seems that when his party was in power, they thought that the au tomotive dealer ship s were import an t, and now, when fu nde d thr ough Workforc e 2000, the valuable work of Manitobans, the member has problems with that. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Deputy Chair person, could the minister tell me who the consultant was on this Keystone Ford contract? Mrs. Vodrey: The trainer, the consu ltant, was Comack and Associates. Mr. Maloway: I once again recognize that there are other questioners here, and there is a lot of territory to get through tonight. I would not want to disappoint them.

But I wanted to say that, and what I said in the beginning, and I happen to agree with the former member for Rossmere, that I think busi nesses should be operating on a fairly level playing field. It is unfair to give one or two grants in certain areas at the expense of others in the field.

I think that if you su rveye d busine ss, and the Cham ber of Comme rce has surveyed the people and, I think, the busine sse s by and large, a lot of these businesses would be embarrassed to be taking this money and would recognize that on the one hand they meet in conclave and they talk about how the government should restrain itself and cut its deficit. On the other hand, they are taking money that could be better used, as the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) would tell you, to reduce the deficit or to be given to more needy people in society such as those students who have had thei r social assist ance cut back and other disad va ntage d people. So I woul d say that some of these companies were probably embarrassed to even be on this list. The minister read out a list of pe ople that evidently got contracts or got subsidie s of type under the previous government, and I did not say I partic ul arly sup ported that either at the time. Nevertheless, I was not in the majority. Mrs. Vodrey : Mr.

Deputy Chair, again, I can just say to the member that there is a criter ia. The proposals are reviewed under a criteria, and the criteria does provide training for Manitobans. The membe1r may not like the kind of work that they are doing. He may not think that it is worthy of assistance, but for those people who are employed in those pos itions and to whom this trai ning providel� an enhancement in their skill level, then that is the basis of the human resource training that is offered through Workforce 2000. I just would like to maybe read into the record a couple of stat ement s that have been made.

Work force 2000 is the first govern ment training program that we can use. At last the government has provided us with something that fits our needs as a small business. That was Sanderson Tractor in Portage Ia Prairie. We cert ainly have others which have come to Workforce 2000 supporting the kind of training that has been offered. We may get into some of those additional ones. I also just have one other. I do have one that has just co me from the Carpent ers and Joiners of America, and this is another, not the one I tabled.

This just arrived on June 16 , where the Carpente rs and Joiners of America say: I want to thank you for your support and assistance to the carpentry trade impr ove1ment trust fund's most comprehensive training package ever delivered. The response by the membership was enthusiastic and evidenced by the participation rate. To date more than 12 0 student sp aces were used, which translates into approxima tely 8,000 hours of upgr ading provided to the membership. *

(2030) Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I just wan ted to ask, the increase in this area is about the only area that ha1� incr eased in this whole area of Youth Pr ogr ams, Workforce 2000. Can the minister indicate how many positions were paid for as a res ult of this $5 mil li on appr opriation -or subsidiz.ed? Mrs. Vc>drey: Mr. Deputy Ch air, is !he member asking how many Manitobans have been trained, which I have put on the record already? It is over

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4518 54,000 . Is the member asking about staffing in the department? I would ask him if he could clarify his question. Mr. Plohman: No, I was just asking how many were subsidiz ed in training this past year as compared to the year before>. You mention the 54,000, what was the figure the year before? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Deputy Chair, in 19 92-93, in terms of small and medium busine ss trainin g incentives, the numbers are 3,2 40 and that is compared to 19 91 -92 at 2,832. In the payroll tax refu nd, in '92-93 the number is 28,45 5; and in 19 91 -92, 12 ,827.

In the industr y- wide, 1 ,870 , that is in '92-93; '91 -92, 2, 014. Mr. Plohm an : When the minister is using the figure 54,000, she is comparing it to what figure, if she was giving a comparable figure? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Deputy Chair, that is the total cumul ative figure since the program began in 19 91 to date. Mr. Plohman: So it is not 54,000 this past year; it is 54,000 over two years. Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it is a cumu lative fig ure of Manitobans trai ned unde r the Workforce 2000 program. Mr.

Plohman: Well, the minister might have made herself more clear whe n she uses that fig ure, because it is misleading to say that that is how many are being trained. It sounds like an annual training, and I just point out to the minister is would be- Point of Order Mr. Deputy Chairper son : Order, please. I would ask the honourable member to choose his words very carefully. The word "misleading" does fall under the unparliam entary list, and I would ask him to choose his words carefu lly, so we do not end up in any unnecessary points of order at this time. Mr.

Plohman: I think we have had the only point of order we are going to get, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. Deputy Chairper son : Thank you. * * * Mr. Dep uty Cha irper son : Item 4. (h)(1 )(

a) Salaries. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne ) : Mr. De put y Chairperson, I wonder, just on Workforce 2000, as part of the government's overall training strategy, if the minister could tell us whether there is any co-or di nation between wha t is occur ring wit h Workforce 2000 and the training that is being done un der the trai ning credits that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has offered to business. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Ch air, we administer that payroll tax refund for training. We attest to the natur e of the training throu gh the Minister of Finance to allow him then to provide that credit. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairpe rson, so if you attest for it, then can you produce a list of the kinds of training, the amount of training that has been delivered under that tax credit program? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the ye ar 19 92-93, the total applications were 1 ,41 5. In that year, 64 percent of those applica tions were in the technological area. They involved upgrading and retraining re: new processes and new technology, areas such as quality assurance, programmable automation, blueprint reading.

In the Human Resources area, 23 percent of the applications were in the Human Resources area and the y in volve d ar eas such as stress management, presentation skills, motivation goal setting, negotiation skills and communications; and 13 percent of the applications were in the area of basic education, continuous learning, literacy, numeracy, problem solving, critical thinking and learning to learn. Mr. Alc ock: Mr. Deputy Ch airpe rso n, I am interested in that 13 percent doing basic educa tion, literacy and numeracy.

These are businesses that are claiming credit under the tax credit program for training and are doing basic education and literacy training? Can you give me a sense of who is doing that and what the circum stances are that would lead to that? •

(2040) Mrs. Vodrey: This par ticula r area encourage s larger firms to enter into a type of generic training. It is to improve the skill level of their workforce. It is not targeted at the particular work that they do as a company. The skills are then transferable skills in the workplace. Mr. Alcock: The minister had indicated there were 1 ,41 5 persons trained under this? Mrs. Vodrey : That was the tota l num ber of applica tions. It inv olve d appr oxi mately 214

4519 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 companies, and the number of employees trained estimated in 199 2 was 28,455. Mr. Alcock: The total dollar value claimed? Mrs. Vodrey: It is estimated in 19 92, for those over 28,0 00 emplo yees, the total value of the training was $7,457,600. That however is not the value of the payroll refund, that is the value of the training. Mr. Alco ck: Wh at then would be the value claimed? Mrs. Vodrey: The companies then apply to have that refund and they are in process. The deadline for those applications is June 30, '93.

However, we know that one year ago in the fiscal year, the amount was about $1 .5 million, and we cou ld estimate that the value might be about $3 million at the end of '92, but I stress that is an estimation since we do not have all the appl ica tions processed. Mr.

Alcock: For the sake of time or to save some time perhaps, am I correct in saying the process then is-if a company has a training program or training which they wish to offer, they sketch out what it is that they wish to do, they present it to the department and the department then says, yes, this falls under the general parameters of this and then they offer it, or do they offer some training and then come to you for an attestation that it is within the parameters of the program? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the process can occur either way.

Sometimes the training has occurr ed and then there is the information received in a proposal regarding the criteria, and at other times the training has not yet occu rred and a proposal is received. Mr. Alcock: Is any attempt made to differentiate between training which may be part of the ongoing orientation and in-house training progr ams for companies and something that may be new and an add -on? Or at the time that this cr edit was announced, is it simply possible for a company to take existing training programs and now claim a credit for them? Mrs.

Vodrey: I think the membe r's que stion focused on basic orientation, and I can tell him that we do not fund basic orientation under either the payroll refund or under the small to medium training incentives. Mr.

Alcock: So the n can a company come forward and request grants under Workforce 2000 to do !lome training at the same time also to flesh out the1 nature of the program and suppo rt some of the training from its own resources and claim a credit lSO that two things provide, perhaps, a larger base c1f training in that particular organization that migh t be repre sented by either cr edit or the Workforce 2000 grant? Mrs. Vodrey: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Chair, I am having a little trouble hearing the member. If he could just repeat the question slightly louder, that would be helpful. Thank you. Mr.

Al•::ock : Is my mike on? Mr. Deputy Chair per son: Just get a little closer to it. Mr. Alc::ock: It might be difficult. Mr. Plc>h man : Move it closer. You do not have to move �·ourself closer. Mr. Alcock: Thank you, John, I appreciate the advice on this. The question is this: If you are offering a training program of some sort and you are able to apply for Workforce 2000, are you als o able to cl aim a portion of the training that you are offering then under the tax credit program? (Mr .. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chai rperson, in the Chair) *

(2050) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, under the Payroll Tax Re fund eligible activi ties, wha t a comp any wished to do would have to meet the cri teri a of the Payroll Tax Refund parts of Workforce 2000. It would involve activities such as innovation, adaptation and participation, they being the key, and trai ning activities must focus on broad!�· based transferable and portable skills that apply to a wide variety of employment situations within both the comp any and the pro vinc ial workforce.

Eligible training and skill development activ ities may inc lude upgr ading, may incl ude entry-le1vel and also retraining activities. The basic skills trai ning shoul d enable an emplo�·ee to function more effectively and to lay down the foundation for continuous learning and adaptation. We have spoken tonight about some of the basic education literacy, numeracy and com mu nic ation ski lls as well as the proble m solving, critical thinking, the analytical thinking.

June 21 , 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4520 In the area of technical and techn ological skills, it includes entry-level training, skills upgrading and retraining that will allow employees to develop new skills and to rem ain in their cu rrent field. Program mable factory aut omation, qu alit y assurance, blueprint reading, as I have mentioned, basic and personal computer operations may be areas where companies would like to apply.

Then in the human relations and general skills training, it would look to foster individual group and organ izational effe ctiveness, an d I think I mentioned a little bit earlier some of the areas that would fall under the criteria, such as enhance d presentation skills, career planning, motivation, goal setting. Mr. Alcock: I am just trying to clarify parts of this in my own mind with the minister.

So you can claim a credit for that kind of training, and I want to talk a little bit more about basic education in a minute, but my central question is: Can you also claim support under the Workforce 2000 for delivering some of that training? I am not looking for a scandal here, double counting or anything like that. I am just asking a question. Can you enhance your training program by having some port ion of it deli vered in the Workforce 2000 and some portion of it claimed on the tax credit program? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair, I think the important point to make here is that you cannot count twice, and the eligibility requirements would be established. Now, for a larger firm, they might have some of the eligibility covered under the PTR or the payroll refund . They migh t also have a portion under the direct training, but for the small and medium businesses, it would be under the training incentives. They do not quali fy for the payroll reduction refund, and the ceiling amount is $1 0, 000. Mr.

Alcock: On this question of basic educat ion, literacy, numeracy and com munic ation skills, I believe at one time those were reading, writing and arithmetic, were they not? Whe n is it that a company would offer that internally as oppose d to acce ssing that sort of training in the adult ed system? Mrs.

Vodrey: The basic skills training that I have spoken about this evening involves literacy and nume racy skills, yes, but it also has involved communication skills, problem-solving skills, critical and analytic thinking and learning how to learn, because those have been seen as essential in improving the productivity. In terms of the literacy, it may also have a focus of the workplace, literacy being job specific. Mr. Alcock: I am not being the least bit critical about this.

In fact, I think it is interesting to note that com panies are hav ing the same kind of concern about their emp loyees that you see in general education and taking the time to provide ad di tional li teracy and num eracy skills. My que stion is how would it occur that a company would take this on as an in-house program rather than acce ssing -! mean, we offer ad ult ed programs, literacy and numeracy. Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, the kinds of programs that the member has referenced are separate from the workplace, and this particular kind of workplace training is an integrated type of program ming.

It is integrated literacy wit h the person's work skills, and it is then a method of providing a full complement of skills in a program and at one site wh ere the indi vidua l is at the moment. Mr. Al coc k: I can unde rstand a com pany undertaking work to help people learn additional skills that relate to a special process or a special activity within the context of the company, but is it that companies have found it difficult to access basic education from the community programs? (Mr. Deputy Chair person in the Chair) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair person, again, this is training that is more specific to the workplace, and one of the things that we have been speaking about in answering questions and in talking more generally is the development of a training culture and the development of a partnership. This is one way in which that partnership and the training culture is a very concrete example of that particular kind of culture. Mr.

Alc ock: I su ppose, alt hough in lots of circums tances you have organizations wishing to take on the training when the training may be better deli vered and more efficient ly accessed from systems that are expert in providing the training. It just seems-1 have an und erstanding that if a company has again something spe cific or unique to their processes, in-house training may be the only route to go to access that kind of training.

4521 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 The idea of an org aniz ational culture that supports lifelong learning, there certainly is a value in that, but it just struck me as odd that they would go outside of the existing system to provide basic literacy and numeracy. Had there been complaints about the current adult ed system or the resources that are available in the system, or is there some reason why they do not feel that they could work together with that system in order to access basic educati on? Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that, no, it is not a result of complain ts around the other system.

It has more to do, again, with the development of the training cul ture and the sharing that has been spoken about and the partnership in terms of the developm ent of a training culture. Mr. Alcock: I will just end then on this section, but I must say I am impressed with that answer, frankly. • (210 0) Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsel ey) : I had a few que stions about the

section of Workforce 2000 which gives small grants to small- or medium-si zed business. I wonder if the minister could tell us how many of those grants enabled or were for the purpose of adding staff? How many new jobs were created by this program? Mrs. Vodrey: I can tell the member that since the program's inception in May 19 91 , there have been, under the training ince ntives component for the small to medium businesses, new positions for 184 trainees. That is new jobs. Ms.

Frie sen: Are those full time or part time, and could the minister tell us the conditions of those jobs, whe ther they lasted beyond the training period or whe ther they have to last a certain numbe r of months beyond the training period? One of my concerns, for example, is that employers may be using this program to screen potential employees. Mrs. Vodrey: At the time of an interview and a follow-up, which was April 19 93, that showed that 81 pe rc ent of the new empl oyee s we re still empl oyed wi thin that place of employment. To answer the member as well, they were full-time positions. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chair, on the information the minister originally sent us, Tuxedo Taxi was still involved. I just want to check that the number she is giving me of 18 4 new jobs did not include the Tuxedo Taxi jobs. Mrs. Vodrey: Absolutely not. Ms. F=rle sen : How much of the training under this pr ogr am- aga in, the gr an ts to small- and medium-si zed businesses-is done on work time? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, it is estimated apprc,ximately 85 percent. Ms. t=rlesen: Could the minister tell us how that was arrived at, how that estimate is arrived at? Mrs.

Vodrey: That information is based on the de par tment's knowle dge and also review of the files. Ms. F=rle sen : Mr. Deputy Chair, then why is it an estimate? If it is based on files and based on the depar1ment's knowledge, why is it not precise? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, we do not have all of the files here with us this evening, but we believe that estimation is really very close to accur ate. If we are looking at a range, it might be 84.5 or 85 percent. We believe it is fairly accur ate, but I have made sure to say it was an estimation because we do not have all files here before us.

Ms. !=rl es en: Could the minister explain how people are sel ected within busine sses for the training? This is a question I asked in Question Period; the minister said she would look at it in Estimates. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the decision is ma de1 by the employer. It is based on the employer's own internal needs, and occasionally training consultants may help a business industry or labour group determine or assess what their needs; may be, but again the decision is an internal one. Ms. F=rlese n: Mr.

Deputy Ch air, and when the appl ication is made for Workforce 2000 money, is there already the indication made in the proposal of who is to be trai ned in the sense of labour, mana.gement or technological specialty with in the area, and does that form part of the criteria of the de par tme nt in accepting or re jec ting the applica tion? Mrs. Vodrey: On the appl ic ations there is a proposal. Within that proposal it says who would be trained, the nature of the training, how this training meets the program cr iteria. It is all identi1'ied within the proposal, and we would know who would be trained.

As I said, there is a set of criteria that must be met in the larger way in terms of the application being accepted.

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4522 Ms. Friesen: So it do es the n form par t of a de part ment' s acc epta nce of a

part icular application. When the minister evaluates those applications, does she look at the proportion of people who are not being trained? The reason I ask this question is for exactly the reasons that I aske d it in Question Period was that one of the criticisms of these types of programs is that they do not provide equality of access for people in the labour force, and that it is exactly up to the employer-! see now it is also essentially part of the government's criteria for acceptance of the programs-that the employer can pick and choose.

The employee can pick and choose, one hopes, on the basis of ability to benefit from the training program of the appropriateness of the training for a particular business, but the employer when you come right down to the bottom of it is picking and choosing who is getting the training with public money. That is a concern, and I am interested to know that it is part of the government's criterion so that every program which has been accepte d, I assume, has been judged on that basis. Mrs.

Vod rey: Let me just reference for the member what the government criteria is for the trai ning in cen tive s to small and medium busi nesses so there is no confusion in the member's mind about which criteria is which. In terms of the government's criteria, we are looking for the introduction of new technologies, equipment and also for processes. We are also looking at high-demand skill-shortage occupations and high-demand skills.

These are identified, and we spoke about this when we were looking at the labour mar ket, in one way through the high-demand occupations in Manitoba, that report that is prod uce d by Manit oba Education and Training. Proposals which fall within the priority are as of trai ning are ass esse d by a revie w comm ittee wi th respect to the following requirements: The demonstrated need for training; skill training which increases business productivity; soun d tr aining plans with definite tr aining objectives; and training which is related to the long-term human resource strategy.

So when a proposal is receive d by Workforce 2000, we try to look at it in the conte xt of the company's whole human resource plan and their whole plan in all areas of skill development. * (21 10 ) Ms. Fri es en: How does the minister assure herself that there has been equality of access to training programs, and that there is equality of acce ss, for exam ple, for women, for visible minorities, for handic apped people, for people who might otherwise have been excluded from training, that the training is equally acces sible to labour as it is to management?

We have public money in here, large proportions of public money, and the minister seems quite prepared for the employer only, and to confirm the employer only, as the selector of people who can be trained. That seems to me a misuse of public money. Mrs. Vodrey: I am sure the member would not have wante d to have been viewed in any way as unfair in terms of the question which she asked, or unp arliamentary in terms of the question that she asked. So I know that we are having a look at that.

I would say that under wage assistance, under that training area, the member asked how can we attempt to make sure that some of the priority grou ps, she mentioned women, would also be include d. I can tell her that we subsid ized the wage-assi sted training at 40 percent for the priority groups as opposed to 30 percent for other groups. Ms . Fr iesen: I am int ereste d to hear that application, but can she tell me how that has been applied? Have employers in fact taken up those opportunities that the minister is offering? Mrs.

Vod rey: Yes, I am informe d tha t the employer groups have taken up the assistance for the priority groups. Ms. Fries en: Could the minister tel l us what proportion of the people trained then have fallen into those priority groups? Mrs. Vodrey: We will have to get that information. I will provide it as soon as possible. Ms. Fries en: One last question on evaluation. I understood in an earlier exchange with the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) that the minister spoke of ev al uation as being com posed of a questionnaire that is carried out by the trainer which is then put in the files of the government.

I think I heard her say this evening that there is also a follow-up telephone call or interview. Is there anything else that is done in the form of evaluation? Mrs. Vodrey: Ju st before I ans wer that, the member had asked in a previous question just a

4523 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 concern about labour also being involved in the se ctoral planning ini tiati ves. I have some information that says of the 36 agreements or initiatives in the 19 92-93 year, 22 projects have employer and employee representati on, which I thought may answer part of the question that the member asked. In terms of the monitoring process for Workforce 2000, a monitoring process has been established whereby training consultants are expected to follow up with empl oyer s by phone or in per son.

Depending up on the nature of the project, to confirm whether the employer/employee goals and expectations have been met, a form is completed, and it is place d in the project file. All wage-assisted projects are monitored every 10 weeks . In the training assistance for large businesses, the Payroll Tax Refund, the Manitoba Finance procedu res provide for an audi t of all Payroll Tax Refund appli cations over $20,000 and a random sample audit of those under $20,000. In the industry-wide human resource planning , each project has an evaluation component built into the overall project description.

At the conclusion of each proje ct , Wor kforce 2000 busine ss and industry and other government partners contribute co-op erativ ely to the devel opm ent of a final assessment report. Program managem ent have id entified the manner of monitoring training as an area of program delivery that requires review and revision. It is anticipated that the formative review will be undertaken and will generate recommendations as to how to more effectively monitor program-training activity. Ms.

Friesen: Of the 22 that had emp loy er employee participation, how many of those were in the gr an ts to small- and medium -size d businesses? Mrs. Vodrey: These were in the industry-wide sectoral area. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 4.(

h) Workforce 2000 and Youth Programs

(1) Workforce 2000 (

a) Salaries $980,700-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $4,072, 500- pass.

(2) Stevenson Aviation Ce ntre (

a) Sala ries $296,300-pass. (

b) Other Expenditures $288,500- Ms. Fries en: Under Stevenson Aviati on, as I understand it, 12 9 people graduated last year. Could the minister tell us what the graduation or comp h�tion rates are going to be this year, and what is the change in the num ber of people in the program? Mrs . Vod rey : Mr. Deputy Ch airperso n, for Stevenson gradua tes in 19 90-91 , the number was 12 6; in '91 -92, it was 62; and in '92-93, it was 59. For the statistics '90-91 , it used to include also the gradu ates of the Transpor t Driver Training Program, and that was in fact double counting.

So the numbers are now reduc ed to more accurately reflect the graduates. * (212 0) Ms. F1rl esen : What is the anticipa ted rate this comin�1 year? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, we anticipate in this year, '92-93, that there will be 28 graduates. That is because those gradua tes are in a short course. In the nondestructive testing there will be no graduates in the aircraft maintenance area becaus;e that has just moved from a three-year to a four-year course. So those graduates will be next year's !�rad uates. (Mrs . Sh irley Re nder, Acting De pu ty Chai r�:trson, in the Ch air) Ms.

Friesen: Is it possible for the minister to say what that number will be a year from now? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, we anticipate the number will be 23. Ms. Frile sen: There is a reduction in this line and I wonder if the minister could tell us where the impact is goin!� to be felt. Some of it is in Capital, I notice. I would think that would have some significance for a program like this. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chai r, in the Capi tal area there was a decrease of $1 ,000. We do not predict that $1 ,000 decrease will have any significant bearing on the program at all.

We have recently decentralized, as the member knows. Sometimes as well, I can tell her, that industry will provide• some capital, sometimes in the form of new tools. Ms. Friesen: In terms of employment of people from these cour ses, has the minister made any considEHation of the changes in the airline industry that appear to be happenin g around us and what

June 21, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4524 are the implications of that for employment in this industry? Mrs. Vodrey: There has been somewhat of a downturn in this particular area, and it has resulted in fewer apprentice s. However, I can tell her that we are the only appr enticeship program in Canada and, therefore, people who come for this training are generally in employ. The Acting Deputy Chai rperson (Mrs. Render): Line 4.(h)( 2}(

b) Other Expenditures $288,500- pass. 4.(h)

(3) Youth Programs (

a) Salaries $802,200. Ms. Friesen: Can I ask the mi niste r about CareerStart, first of all? I understand some of the Caree rStart programs have bee n quite late in coming to the Employment Ce ntres. At least that has been the case in Winnipeg. Has that been the case on a province-w ide basis , and could the minister explain what is behind that? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, ther e was a delay in the announcement of Caree rStart, but I am informed that at the moment we are operating at a full level, and we are exactly at the point wher e we had predicted we would be at this time. Ms.

Friesen: As I understood it, the CareerStart programs were only made available to students last week in the Winni peg area. Perhaps the minister could give us an indication from her department when they did become available, how many weeks they are compared to last year, and perhaps some reasons for what students perceive as a delay. • (21 30) Mrs. Vodrey : The Manitoba Care erStart was announced by newspaper advertisements April 3, 19 93. The program has been operating since May 3.

There was some delay in getting out letters to the employers, but all employers were phoned to make sure that the process was kept up to speed. Ms. Friesen: So at this point, mid- June, has all the money for that program been disseminated or allocated? Mrs. Vodrey : I am inform ed tha t all of the Caree rStart money has been al loca ted. The deadline for the CareerFocus was last Friday, and those final approvals are being completed. Ms. Frie sen: Is there a proportion of this money which is reserved for jobs for high school students? Mrs.

Vodrey: CareerFocus funds may apply to high scho ol stude nts, but that fund ing is not targeted specifically to high school students. Ms. Friesen: Is there money within any of the other youth programs which is targeted towards the provision of jobs for high school students? I do not just mean job agencies, but jobs. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, as I said, there are not positions which are speci fically targeted to high scho ol students; however, a number of high school students do in fact obtain positions through Care erStart and also through the Manitoba Job Centres. I can tell the member that in the

summary of 19 92 positions approved, under CareerFocus, of 21 8 positions, 12 2 positions went to high school students. Ms. Friesen: I am not sur e I am get ting the difference between CareerStart and CareerFocus. The reason I am asking is the minister has just given me a number of, what is it, 350 positions, essentially, in CareerFocus last year and Career Start is shown as having approximately 3,500. Is one a

section of the other? Mrs. Vodr ey : Madam Ac ting Depu ty Ch air, CareerFocus is a

section of the Ca reerStart, and the 21 8 students that I spoke about are in the CareerFocus

section of the Caree rStart program. The CareerFocus is, as I said, a special component of Car eer Start, whi ch provides stude nts wi th career-related work experiences that are directly linked to their studies, which may lead to acad emic accre ditation by the educational institution that they are attending . Ms. Friesen : How many positions were filled all together last year under Caree rStart including Career Focus? Mrs. Vodrey : Madam Acting Deputy Chair, in the Caree rStart program including CareerFocus, there were 3,1 34 youth employed.

Of those youth, 1, 17 5 of those young people were high school students. Ms. Friese n: Has there been a change in the payments offered for Caree rStart and Career Focus students this year? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, there has been no change this year. Ms. Friesen: What is the payment this year? Mrs. Vodrey: It is a wage assistance of $2 per hour.

4525 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OIF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 Ms. Friesen: This is the one that was cut from $4 an hour or more two years ago, or three years ago now? Mrs. Vodrey: Two years ago, the amount was $2.50 for all em ployers, and this year it has remained the same as last year at $2. Ms. Fri esen: The Manitoba Youth Job Centres, which are run throughout the province- there have been new sp ape r reports of their difficulties in finding jobs this summer. Has the minister got any information that would tend to counteract or give us another version of that? Mrs.

Vodrey: It is a little bit too early to tell the ex act success or num bers of the place ment through the Manitoba Job Centres as it is not quite the end of June yet. However, I understand and am informed that on visits to the centre, some centres are up in terms of their placeme nts and some centres are somewhat dow n. But we are expecting to place approximately the same number of students this year through the Manitoba Job Centres as we did last year. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mrs. Render): Item 4. (h)(3)(

a) Salaries $802,2 00-pass; (

b) Other Expen ditures $4 03,3 00- pass; (

c) Gran ts $2,567 ,400-pass. 4.(h)( 4) Partners with Youth (

a) Grant Assistance $1 ,400 ,000 -pass; (

b) Less: Recoverable from Rural Economic Development Initiatives. * (21 40) Ms. Fries en: On the Partners with Youth program, the appropriation remains the same in this case, but I am sure the minister knows that youth employment has not substantially decreased in Manitoba. I wond er agai n, partly Partners with Youth but partly the other programs that do deal with youth, what kind of policy changes the minister anticipates to deal with youth and employment and particularly the ability of students to begin to meet some of their loans for further education? Mrs.

Vodrey: In the area of Partners with Youth, there were recommendations which were received at the end of last year. They were implemented in order to expand sponsor accessibility to Partners with Youth in 19 93. The Infrastructure category, which seemed to lead to some confusion last year by virtue of its name Infrastructure, has been renamed Business Community Development. By renaming this, it is anticipated that applicants will be encouraged to initiate any type of project that will ena ble them to develop or to expand their param E�ters of operation. Secondly, a Marketing component was added.

Under this category, sponsors are encouraged to initia tEI proje cts which will hel p them mark et products, services or community features. Thirdly, a Young Entrepreneurs component is being introduced to encourage young people 18 to 24 to start their own businesses. Under Young Entrepreneurs, applicants are required to submit a detailed business plan to a board comprised of program staff and private-sector business persons. Approved applic ants would be eligible to receive a $2,000 grant to help defray business start-up costs. Ms.

Friesen: Is there a list available of groups who received the grants last year-not now , but at a later date? Mrs.

V,odrey: We can certainly assemble that list, but just to provide some assistance this evening, I can give the member some examples: City of Winnipeg, the project was to design and establish interprEitive nature trails in Assiniboine Forest; the Town of Dauphin, the project was enhancing the phy sical appearance of the downtown business area; the Sustainable Fuel System Limited, the developing of a manufac turing plan to pellet ize waste woo d fibres; the Alonsa Conservation District in Alonsa, the project was to clear trails, constn .. 1ct picnic and parking facilities and to erect inte rp retive signs ; the Rural Mun icipa lity of Coldwedl in Lundar, to construct a garage to house emergEmcy vehicles.

That is an example, but we will put together the list. The Ac�tlng Deputy Chairpe rson (Mrs. Render) : Item 4.( h)(4)(

b) Less: Recoverable from Rural Economic Development Initiatives $500,0 00- pass. 4.(

j) Apprentice ship {1 ) Salaries $936,600. Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell us if she is hav inH any discussions with the fed eral gov ern ment, if there are any plans within the government of Manitoba to expand apprenticeship prog ram s in terms of the range of trades in appren ticeships, and particularly to expand the Red SE1al program in existing areas? Mrs. Vodrey: When I attended the meeting of labour market ministers in January, which was the firs t time that gr oup of minister s ha d met, I und erstand, in four years, one of the areas of discussion was the area of appren ticeship. There

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4526 certainly was a presentation and discussion on that area to look at Red Seal and also the potential expansion of the Red Seal programs. In terms of the cur rent status, the Cana dian Council of Directors of Apprenti ceship has dev eloped an action plan for acce ler ati ng the process for establishing, upd ating interpro vincial common sta nd ards in appr enticeship tr aining and certification.

Both the federal and the provincial and territorial govern ments have indicated a strong desire to establish only one interprovincial standard for each trade or occupa tion, and the expansion of the interprovincial standards would provide for a better trained and more competitive Canadian workfor ce. It would also all ow for gr eater interpro vinc ial workforce mobility and make more effective and efficient use of the available resource s. This co mmittee has an action pla n of three activity levels: short-term objectives, medium- term objec tives and long-term obj ec tive s.

At the moment, there are 40 designated interprovincial Red Seal trades, of which Manitoba participates in 32. Manitoba cur rently has an additional 12 trades designated for provincial status only. Ms. Frie se n: This is a

section of the department which has been recently transferred from Labour. It is my und erstan ding that at the time it was transferred, there was no consul tation with the Man itoba Fe de rat ion of Labour, or with any represen tation of labour at all, not ev en, I understand, at the annual meeting of the cabinet and the Manitoba Federation of Labour. Could the minister explain why that happened? It has been a long-standing concern of labour that apprenticeship be connected to labour and that it be dealt with by people who have an und erstanding of the shop floor and of the labour movement.

So my concerns are for that transition, for the method of transition, and for the implications for the current programs. (Mr. Depu ty Cha irperson in the Chair) • (21 50) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Depu ty Ch air, the transfer of Apprenticeship into the Department of Education and Tr aining, and par ticularly now into the Advanced Education and Skills Training Division, was seen as an important one. The in-school tr aining and adm in istrat ive com pon en ts of Apprenti ceship will be housed in one division now and in one department of government.

Previously, there was a separation within the Appren ticeship, wher e one part did develop the curriculum and another part delivered the curricu lum. There was somewh at of a disjointed approac h. Now we are looking for a much more integrated ap proa ch, and we also ar e intereste d in the co-ope rative education progr am, working closely with Apprenticeship in delivering and implementing pilot projects for high school apprenti ceship. That now can be accomplished within one department.

The Apprenticeship Branch brings to Education and Training a strong connection with industry and with labour leader s who are involved in the Trades Advisory Com mittees. This conn ection will be important in further developing the partn erships and the co-operation between the province and the private sector. Also, institutional training programs and Apprentic eship and Training Branch have an opportunity for the sort of crossing over of ideas that can improve the quality of training in all of the programs. So that was some of the reasoning behind the move.

In terms of the move itself into Education and Training, we have certainly maintained the Trades Advisory Comm ittees. I have already met with the chair and a represe ntative of the Apprenti ceship and the Trades Qualification Board, and at that time, we had a discussion of some of the questions that they had regarding the move. We certainly looked to meet again and made that commitment at that meeting to make sure that this transition is not only a smooth transition, but also a very beneficial transiti on, beneficial to the people within the programs and beneficial also across the pro.:�vince.

We believe it will be beneficial to all of Education and Training, as well as Apprent iceship, to have this all housed in one department. I can also say tha t the deputy minister informs me that he and the department have had a meeting with the Canadian Federation of Labour, so we are, during the process of this transition, making a strong effort to meet with all of the people involved to look at any concerns they might have and to attempt to address them as qu ickly as possible. Ms.

Frie sen: I am inte reste d in the forma l processes and procedures the minister will be establishing for the connections wi th labour and with the trade union movement. The minister said that she has met with the Canadian Federation of Labour, which I believe

4527 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 represe nts a small proportion of labour in Manitoba. When does she intend to meet formally with the Manitoba Federation of Labour, and could she give us a sense of what kind of regular connections will be made with labour? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly, we will make an effort to meet with the Manitoba Federation of Labour at the earliest opportunity. I know that they would inform the member that I have al ready had me etings with the m, cer ta inl y regarding the area of education reform as well.

So we have begun a process, through the broader issue of edu cation, of communication. I know the Manitoba Federation of Labour also has a repre sentative on the Apprenticeship and Trades Qualification Board, and I have said to the member that I have already had a first meeting with their chair person and represent ative whom the board chose to have attend that meeting. At that time, I also made the offer that we would meet again, that I would attend a meeting and that we would make every effort between us to make sure that the communication certainly flows as quickly as possible and as smoothly as possible.

In addition, I spoke about the Trades Advisory Commi ttees, and on those Tra des Advisory Comm ittees, the Manitoba Federation of Labour and the Canadian Federation of Labour both have represe ntatives on those committees. So that is another way that I look to make sure there is a commitment. *

(2200) Mr. Dep uty Chairpers on: 4.0) Apprenticeship

(1) Salaries $936, 600-pass.

(2) Other Expenditures $235,8 00- Mr. Alcock: Mr. Dep uty Ch ai rpers on, ju st a couple of quick questions to the minister. How does the Apprenticeship !Training relate to the other kinds of training that are going on in the depar tment, speci fical ly, the 2000 and the tax-credit training and the like? Mrs. Vodrey: The Apprenticeship and Training Branch is virtually a training institution with one except ion. The in-school training is conducted by other institutions, in some cases, the community colleges, pr imarily the community colleges.

In many ways, the branch activities ver y closely resemble the activities of other branches formally housed in what was our post-secondary area: in itiatives such as the colleges, the pri vate vocational schools, New Careers, Steve nson Aviatkm Technical Training Centre. Yet Ap prentice ship and Training also has a com mon threa d wi th Work force 2000 . Both programs have a very close contact with industry in developing and conducting their training programs. Essent ially. both prog rams conce ntrate on workplace-based programming and training. The trai ning is dr iven by employ er demand.

Both programs also have a network of regional officials. Mr. Alco ck: Is ther e any attempt to sort out or-you say it is employer demand-to direct a program one way or the other shoul d it be approp riate for Apprenticeship or for Workforce 2000 or for the tax credit program. Is there any sortin�J done on that? Mrs. Vodrey : May I just clarify with the member? Sortin9, is that on behalf of the participants to direct the pz1rticip ants toward a particular program , or employers? Mr.

Alcock: I understood that one of the reasons for moving Apprenticeship and Training into this division was to have better co-ordination , a better overall strategy. Now, if it is employer driven- that is what I believe the minister said in her last response-pr esumably employers come forward to the branch and say, well, we are interested in startin�J this; we feel we have a demand for that or whatever. What form of co-ordination takes place betweEm the various training possibilities for an emplo}•er? Mrs.

Vodrey: The area of apprenticeship has only been with the Dep artment of Educa tion and Training for a short time, but again one of the reasons for the move has been to look at that par ticular linkage. I did mention that link age betwee'n programs such as Workforce 2000 and Apprentic eship can be forged to further their common objectives regarding the workplace-ba sed training.

I also spoke about the co-oper ative education component of the Dep artment of Education and Trainin!�. and we would expect that this area would also work co-op eratively and very closely with Apprenticeship in developing and imple menting pilot projects for high school apprenticeship as well. I would also lik e to point out the issue of compleme ntarity which I have been speaking about in a relation to a number of issues, that programs

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4528 work with man y of the sam e ind us try representatives and same associations. They are often active on the same industry committees. Accordingly, now there is a significant opportunity for the programs to colla borate and to co-oper ate in appr oach to sectoral human resource planning. Mr. Alco ck: Does a relati onship exist on the federal side betwee n the apprent iceship training tha t is done wi thin the pr ovi nc e and simil ar ed uca tional programs that are offered on the federal side? Mrs.

Vodrey: Ther e is a link betwe en the Canadian Council of Direc tors of Apprenti ceship and EIC or Employment and Immigration Canada. With that link there is then a common occupational analysis and also the ability to develop a common core curriculum base or a core base. Mr. Alcock: Has there been any indication from the federal government that they might be willing to move more of that towards provincial control? Mr. Deputy Cha irpers on: Order, please. The hour being after ten o'clock, what is the will of the committee? Carry on? Okay, we will carry on. Mrs.

Vod rey : Apprenti ceship is a prov incial responsibility, and the agreements for apprentice ship are interprovincial as opposed to federal. But the federal government does fund the provincial training through direct purchase. Mr. Alcock: Was there not a discussion though -in fact, it cam e up as one of the discussions under the Char lottetown Accord proposal, that the federal government would with draw from some areas of jur isdiction . Was this area not one of them? Mrs. Vod rey: The discussions whic h came up under the Charlo ttetown Accord focused on the issue of training in the broad sense.

Some of the areas that were discussed were, for instance, the Employment and Immigration centres and UIC training, but nothing has been decided and there has not been any fur ther specific con cret e discussion at this point. Mr. Alcock: Are there discussions going on at all betwe en the federal and provincial government or wor king com mittees estab lished by looking at areas that might be transferred? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, in terms of the apprenticeship area, at a recent meeting of deputy ministers responsible for the labour market, the issue of apprenti ceship was discussed, and there was, I understand, certainly a strong will amongst the provinces that that remain with in provincial control.

In the area of devolution of other skills training responsibilities which the federal government may now accept, at the formal meeting that we had as ministers in Janua ry, the federal minister said at that time that he was not looking to devolution; however, individual provinces may be approaching the minister to look at wha t may be of benefit to their provinces. Perhaps the federal minister then will want to have a specific discussion with those provinces. But I have not on behalf of Manitoba held any fu rther specific discussions with the federal minister on the issue of devolution.

So at this time there is nothing further to report. Mr. Dar yl Reid (Tra nscona) : Mr. De put y Chairperson, I have some questions relating to the largest employer in my community, CN Rail. They have a program ongoing for training apprentices over the years, which of course is being nearly phased out at this point in time. • (221 0) Ther e is al so som e concer n within the com mu nity. I raise d these concerns with the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Praznik ) when he was resp onsible for Appren ticeship and Training a couple of years back, with respect to tradespeople within the railway itself in my community, in the shops, that are finding themselves in a position wher e there is a possibility of being laid off or have been laid off and have not, through the workplace, acq uired the necessary skills allowing them to be portable to other jobs. In other words, they do not have the certificate to allow them to go out and seek alt e rn ate em ploym en t when they find themselves laid off.

I asked the Minister of Labour when he was responsible for this depar tment to begin a program of providing that skills training for these employees. Does the Minister of Education now-has her de par tmen t under ta ken any pr ogr am in consu ltat ion with CN Rail and the af fected employees and their union represent atives to provide for those skills upgrading programs for these employees so they can have that portable skills certificate? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Ch ai rperson, I am inf orm ed tha t CNR has some inter nal

4529 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 appren ticesh ips which are not desi g nated apprenticeships. I am wondering if these are the ones that the member is speaking about. They are in-ho use , an d there has not been, to our knowledge, certainly recently, an approach by CN to look at having these designated or any other kind of appr oach on beh alf of thes e parti cular employees. Mr. Reid : Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I could be wrong in this, but it was my understanding, at least, that CN itself, as a com pany, was reluc tant to provide the employees with the nec essary skills to allow them to receive the full trade cer tification, because it would allow these employees then to most likely, should they choose, leave the service of the company.

The part here is that the apprenticeship program within the company, the in-house appre nticeship program, does provide a level of skills for these employees, allowing them to meet the needs of the company, but did not allow them to meet the needs of the Arp renticeship Branch that would provide the certification for full trade status. In other words, I had ini tiated these discus s ions af ter the employees had contacted myself.

I had initiated the discussions with the Apprent iceship Branch, Skills Training branch, to allow for some initiative to be taken to provide the extra training required so these employees could acq uire the skills and receive the certificate that would allow them to have those portable skills. To the best of my knowledge, that has not taken place. Is the department initiating a program like that to provide the employees with the necessary skills training to allow them to be portable? Mr s. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Ch air person, I understand that the member may have made that approach approximately two years ago.

I can only speak for now Apprenticeship being housed in the Department of Education and Training, and it was moved over for the reasons whi ch I have given tonight. I can tell the member, we have had no approach while the Apprenticeship is now being hous ed in the De par tment of Education and Training. The benefits of being housed in the Department of Education and Training is, as I have said all along, through the Advanced Education and Skills Training division, we now have a full range of progr am ming and training oppor tuni ties, and perhaps those would be of assistance to some of those individuals.

But, to this point, we have had no approach by CN. Mr. REtld: I am not sure if the minister is aware of this, but CN is continuing to lay off employees, so a program like this is very important, in fact, vitally important to a lot of these employees considering the numbers of people who are going to be affected by layoff and have been affected by layoff. Is it possible for the minister to consult with her collea�1ue the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Praznik) to find out what steps the Department of Labour had taken with respect to the program that I thought was in good hands at the time two years ago and obviou8ly did not go anywhere under the Minister of Labour's direction? Is it possible for this Minister of Education to consult with the Minister of Labour to find out why not and possibly have her department, the Department of Education, undertake to initiate this program to provide those ski lls for these employees? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Dep uty Ch airp ers on, the membe•r speaks of the downsizing at CN.

I would ju st re mind him tha t the downs izin g labour adjustment is still the responsibility of the Labour Adjustment unit through the Minister of Labour. Howev13r, we can have a look and see what the status was and why such a di scussion was discontinued. If the member is saying tonight that this is <m important area, then it would perhaps be important to see if CN is interested in another approaGh. Mr. Reid : I will reiterate again for the Minister of Education.

The Canadian National Railway, CN Rail, from the best of my knowledge from what I have under stood, is not interested in a program such a.s this, because it woul d allow their employ13es the opportunity to move freely out of the company service. They have a captive work force right now, because those employees do not have that skill level to allow them to be portable to other jobs. So for her to think that she is going to go back to the CN Rail and think that she is going to receive the blessing of the company, I think is the wrong approac:h to take.

The l<ey here is to talk wi th the emplo yees' groups or the represe ntatives themselves to find out if they can initiate this prog ram since the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) obviously did not follow through on this, and provide some start- up or

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4530 some initiative to move in that direction to provide these skills training for these employees. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. De puty Chai r, agai n, the member tries to put words in my mouth. What I said was, we have had no approach. We have had no approach from CN. We have had no approach by the groups that the member is also speaking about then. In terms of what happened in the discussions of my colleague the Minister of Labour, the member makes an accusation of the Minister of Labour.

I would say to the member, maybe we should find out exactly where the discussions broke down. I would say right now, he does not know that they brc-ke down with the Minister of Labour by any means. Mr. Reid: This is a serious matte r for the employees of CN Rail in my community who are finding themselves in a position of being laid off. I, in all seriousness say to the Minister of Education I hope that her department staff and/or herself will follow through with a program of this nature to provide that skills level training, to consult with the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Praznik) to find out why this program did not go anywhe re. The most recent discus sions I had with the represe ntatives of the employees was a few week s ago. I asked them what was taking place with this program and they thought it was stalled in the Departm ent of Labou r. Now it has not moved anywhere since then, so I ask the minister in all seriousness, to consult with the Minister of Labour to find out why this program has not moved forward and hopefully put this program into effect to provide the skills for these employees. *

(2220) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, as I said earlier, we do not know the reason that the discussions have been stalled, if in fact they have been stalled, or exactly what the Minister of Labour may be doing through his own Labour Adjustment unit on behalf of these particular employees. So I am sure when the member met wi th these employee group s, he was able to inform them about the change and that the Appre nticeship Branch is now housed within the Depa rtment of Education. I am sure that he would have informed them and brought them up to date on that particular area.

As I said, we have not had any appr oach from the employee groups either to this point. I certainly recognize the seriousness of any downsizing which would occu r within any area of Manitoba, and cer tai nly we tak e it very seriously within the Department of Education and Training. Mr. Reid: It is a little difficult, Mr.

Deputy Chair per son, through you to the minister, for the employees of the CN plant to be aware that they have to raise the concerns again to the Minister of Education when they most likely did not know that the Minister of Education is now responsible for a program that was originally under the jur isdiction of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praz nik) . So it is very difficult for these employees to know that they have to make representation again to the government on this. I believe they are getting the quick shuffle here.

Will the minister, if I undertake to arrange wi th the em ployees and their representatives, agree to sit down at a meeting with the representatives so that we can work out some solution to these concerns? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. De puty Chair , though this information came out in a news release, I am sure that the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) did his job as an MLA and provided that information to these groups. I do not know if he did or not, but I presume that he would have wanted to do his work as an MLA.

If the member has a request, then my department will certainly look at it, and we will look at the status and where things stopped. Mr. Reid : Well, I can assure the minister that right after the 19 90 election I started working on this issue, and I had meetings with the department staff, and I think, if I understand correctly, Marilyn Kenny was one of the people in on the meeting. There were other department staff, senior staff from the Apprenticeship Branch that were in the meeting as well, along with represe ntatives of the various union organizations and myself.

I thought there was some progress going to be made on this, and nothing moved forward. What I am asking for now is a commitment by the minister that if I arrange for the representatives of these empl oyees to com e to another meeti ng, to obviously once again rai se the issue to the government of the day, will the minister be willing to sit down at such a meeting and partici pate in a meeting like this so that she can hear the concerns of these em ployees themsel ves and the ir

4531 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 represe ntatives about her department providing the necessary skills training for these employees? Will the minister commit to sitting in at this meeting? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, as I replied in my last answer to the member, if he would like to make a contact with the Dep artment of Education and Training, I will see that staff is available for a meeting. Mr. Reid: I take it by that answer then that the minister herself is not interested in attending such a meeting and it is only her staff then. Mrs.

Vodrey : The member's unp arliam entary discussion in terms of attributing a motive-! und erstand that the member wants to have this meeting take place and he would like it to take place as soon as possible . What I am endeavouring to do is to say that if the quickest way to have that meeting take pl ace , at least at a beginning level, I am more than happy to have the staff of the Department of Education and Training take

part in that meeting. If the member wishes to wait until it is able to be fit into my schedule, he may be asking for some delay. He has made a point this evening that this is important, and I have accepted the fact that he sees this as important, and I have said tonight, twice now, three times on the record, that I am wil ling to ma ke the arrangements for my department to meet and to look at exactly where this issue stands. Mr. Reid: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not wish to belabour this point, and this will be my las t question.

The key here is, and in all seriousness to the minister, since the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) did not follow through on a co mmitment, my concern here is that these employees, if they do not have the minister's ear, will once again get the shuffle by the department and that they will not have the oppor tuni ty to have their concerns addressed. I am afraid here that if the minister is not aware of it and some action is not taken, the department could give the shuffle again to these employees and their concerns.

That is my concern here, and I want to make sure that the minister is aware of this since her colleague the Minister of Labour did not follow through on his commitment. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I will say again to the member that I really take a grea t deal of concern about his attributing motives. He does not know himself what happened. He does not know where the talks and discussions stalled.

He does not know what is in fact going on, and he continues to ma�>e accusations out loud and on the record, and it seems like really irresponsible statements being made by the member, who has al ready attempted to attribute motives and act in a way that is really most unparliamentary. Hon. llarren Praznlk (Minister of Labour) : Mr. Deputy Chair, I just would like to comment on the remark.s made by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). When he approached me three years ago, we arran ged a meeting with a senior assistant deputy minister, and the head of the union involved.

We WEire to try to see what could be done, if anything could be done at all, and that process there did not work out. It did not work out for reasons that could not be overcome. I just say to the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), he has such wond erful comments to put on the record, but you know something, Mr. Deputy Chair, in all the years he has supp osedly had concern about thi s matter, I ha ve ma de the invitation to him to meet with the assistant dep uty ministe,r, if he was really concerned about his constituents, to pursue the matter, and he never has.

All the member for Transcona likes to do is talk about it. When it comes time to doing work on behalf C>f his constituents to see if the matter could be de c::dt with , the memb er for Tra nscona is nowhere to be found. His record is proven in the case of Workers Compe nsation as well. I have made the offer to the member many times to meet with the chair of the board to discuss some spe cific matters with him, and he never does. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to rE1mind the honourable members that we are dealing with 4. (j)

(2) Other Expenditures, which happen!S to fall under the Department of Education and Training. Mr. Reid : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am sorry that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) takes offence to the comments that I made here, but I would have thought that after three years there would have been some progress on this, and I did meet with his director, I believe he said, of Apprent iceship and Training Branch. I had meetings with the union represe ntatives at those meetings on at least two occasions . I had phone c:alls with the depar tment staff. I do not

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4532 know how much more work I as the MLA have to do when it is the minis ter responsible for the department. That is why I am asking this Minister of Education- Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Lind a Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Deputy Chair person, I believe we are here to do Estimates on Education, and I wonder if you could call the members to order and get back to Estimates on Education. Mr. Dep uty Chair pers on: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point of order, but we are dealing this time with 4.( j)

(2) Other Expenditures, under the Apprenticeship program. *** Mr. Reid: Despite the comments that are made here between the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) and myself, in all seriousness I say, on behalf of the employees of the CN operations in Transcona, that I hope the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) will take my comments that I have put to her here this evening seriously; that she and/or her staff will agree to meet with myself and the emp loyee represe ntatives to work out a solution to these concerns; and that we can do it in the very near future. Mr. Deputy Chai rperso n: Item 4.( j)

(2) Other Expenditures $235,800 -pass. Item 4.(

k) Canada-Man itoba Winnipeg Core Area Renewed Agreeme nt- Employment and Training (1 ) Grants-ze ro;

(2) Less Recov erable from Urban Affairs-zero. Resolu tion 16 .4 : RESOLVED that ther e be gr anted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceed ing $49,831 ,500 for Education and Training (Advanced Education and Skills Training), for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 1994-- pass. Mrs. Vodrey: Could we have a five- minute break to bring in new staff? Mr. Dep uty Chairper so n: We will take a five-minu te recess to get the staff changed around. The committee recessed at 1 0:30 p.m . After Recess The committee resumed at 1 0:42 p.m. Mr. Deputy Ch airperson : The co mmittee will come to order. We are now dealing with item 5. Suppor t to Schools (

a) Schools Finance (1 ) Salaries $731 ,400. Mr. Plohman: When we had discussed und er Policy this area related to Schools Finance, I had ask e d the minister for a numb er of pieces of information that is standard to be provided to the critics when discussing the public schools. I had asked the minister at that time if she could provide us with a copy of a breakdown of the Schools Grants line.

I realize we are dealing with Schools Finance, and I believe we can go through this line by line, but I wanted to know whether the minister was prepared to provid e the informa tion, the breakd own that we had asked for the pr evious occas ion. I understand that it is over a month ago, during the beginning of the Estimates process. If the minister has that, I would apprecia te it, so we have an opportunity to review it briefly prior to getting to that line in the Estimates. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. De puty Chair , I ha ve the information which the member has asked for.

It is more detailed information than is usually provided, but I have it for him, FRAME Report, the 19 91 -92 financials, the FRAME Report, 19 92-93 budgets, and the funding of schools for the school year 19 93-94. The memb er also asked for a comparison of government share, and I have that information to table also. Mr. Plohman: Has the minister provided in the funding of schools '93-9 4 an outline of any changes in provisions for financing for the '93-94 year? In other words, any change in the financing structure, not just in the dollars but in the rules governing those dollars. Mrs.

Vodrey: If the member would turn in the funding of schools '93-94 to page 4 under the highlights, those changes have been outlined for him. Also, I would say that a great deal of these changes, I would like to point out, come from the recommendations of the advisory committee on ed funding. Mr. Plohman : Do the-1 am jus t wond er ing whether I will go through that line by line. I want to ask a question about one of the-first of all, I have a number of regulations here that have just been released as of Jun e 2, '93 , a regula tion in Order -in -Council Nos. 451 , 450 and 449. Are

4533 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 these the regul ations for the Schools Finance program that was brought in two years ago? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chair, that area of regul ations falls into 16 .5(

b) un der Schools Adm inistra tion, and what we we re asking the member is: Would he be going line by line or would he be looking to do this as a block of issues? The difficulty is to make sure that we have the staff avai lable to assist in providing the most comprehe nsive answ ers. Mr. Plohman: What the minister is saying is that she would like to go line by line in this area so that the prcper staff can be at the table. Perhaps she can explain the difference in the responsibility between (

a) and (d), because there might be some overlap. If we pass (

a) now, when I get to (d), some of the questions I might be asking might fall under (a), and I do not want the minister saying at that time, well, we have passe d (

a) already so we canno t discuss that. It seems to me that (

a) deals more with the policy behind the actual grant that is indicated in (d). Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, (

a) deals with the branch operations; (

d) may be the area in which the member will have wider-ranging questions and we will certainly try and deal with all of his questions at (d). Mr. Plohm an: Did the ministe r pr ovide the committee with the information on the independent schools as well in this information that she has provided today? Mrs. Vodrey: The funding to independ ent schools is listed on the bottom third of the sheet which I gave him, Compa rison of Government Share. Mr. Plohman: But the minister has not given a breakdown of that. Do you have a breakdown as well for us on a school-by-scho ol basis? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Depu ty Chair, I do have a breakdown which I am prepared to table now on the Private Schools, Instruction & Services support for '93-94. Mr. Plohman : I am glad to see the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey ) is her e ag ain. Welcom e. The minister has outlined so it will go line by line, Schools Finance at this point, preparation of policy papers, draft legislation regu lations and financial analy sis re lated to the fund ing of publi c and independ ent schools.

I had asked the minister about these regulations that I had numbered before me her·e and listed and the minister said that falls und er the second line, and yet say s that the prepar a1tion of regu lations is done by this section. *

(2250) Mrs. V·odrey : Mr. Deputy Chair, in terms of the regulations that the member is speaking to, I know he would like to discuss those in relation to funding. Those regulations as they relate to the funding would best be discussed under 16 .5.(d). Mr. Plohm an: That if fine, except I just want to ask whether these regulations, withou t getting into too much detail at this time, whether they apply to the Schools Finance Program that was introduced in the '92-93 year? Mrs. V•:>drey: Could the member give me the numbers of the regulations he is referring to? Mr.

Plohm an: Does the mini ste r wan t the Orders-in-Council ? That is what I listed earlier, Orders-in-Council 449, 450 and 451 . Mrs. Vc)drey: Mr. Deputy Ch air, in looking at these r•:�g ula tions, these apply to 16 .5.( d) , the support to the schools in terms of how the funding to public schools is worked through the formula. Mr. Plohman: Well, I think we have to be a little bit flexible at the beginning here, and then we can go into more detail later.

I have a colleague here who wants to ask some qu estions about a sch ool division in his constituency, and I am not going to pass those lines through before he can ask his questions, if I have a choice. Otherwi se, he has to come back later on, so I hope we can acc ommodate that. The s•:�cond thing is I was just reading from the minister's outline in the Supplemen tary Estimates where, under Schools Finance which is (a), it deals with the preparation of regulations, so I assume this branch prepared those regu la tion s. If they prepared them, then they should be the ones to provide some answers on them.

I am asking some questions about that at this particular time. I want to know if this particular regu lation is prepared to give force to the new Schools Finance Program which the minister keeps referring me to in (d). That is where the grants are manifested, but I am talking about the prepara tion behind the regulations. Now, were these regulations prepared for the Schools Finance Program to give force to that program?

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4534 Mrs. Vod rey : Mr. Dep uty Chair, the policy development of the regulation falls under 16 .5.(d). In 16 .5.(a) , the regulation only restates in legal terms the information that is presen ted in the funding book. Mr. Plohman: So the minister is saying that these are the regula tions that giv e effect to the new funding model that w as introduced. Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, the funding model introduced for the school year '92-93 . Mr. Plohman: Can the minister tell me why they are now only being introduced, when it is well into the '93-94 fiscal year?

We have regulations here that just came out, June 2, '93, and I note that they are all retroactive to Janu ary 1, 19 92 . Is the minis ter sayi ng she went through the whole previous year with out legal au thority for the implementation of that new funding formula and model? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Ch air pe rson, in the previous year, all school div isions received a fund ing booklet. In tha t funding booklet, it descr ibed to them the applica tion of the new funding formula.

The regula tions simply confirm the information that school divisions have been using from the funding booklet, but these regulations now put into legal language the information that school divisions have had and have been applying. In translating the concepts into legal language, it has been a very complex matter and has taken some time. It has involved the Dep artment of Justice, and that has now been completed, but the actual information contained in the regulations has been available to school divisions beginning in the school year '92-93 . Mr.

Plohman: Well, I thank the minister for that clarification, but it really was not what I was asking. I knew tha t school divi sions obviou sly had something communicated to them in the previous year when this Schools Financ e Program was brought in, but it is much more than legal language which the minister found very difficult to put down in words here. As she said, it was very difficult and took a lot of time. I can see the regulation is very complex, very long, and, obviously, there was a lot of work put into it. But that is not the point. The fact is it does more than pr ovid e legal langua ge.

It provide s legal force. It makes it legal. Does the minister agree with that? Without the regu lations, the acti ons that she undertook are not in fact legal. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, under The Public Schools Act, the minister has the legal authority to enact regulations, and The Regulations Act allows for two years for retroactivity. So this certainly falls into that time frame, well within the time frame. Mr. Plohman: So the minister is saying that for the previous year there were no regulations in place, and so no legal force, and she is now legalizing what was undertaken last year. Mrs.

Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, I jus t would lik e to correc t that it is not The Public Schools Act, but rath er The Education Administration Act which allows for the minister to make those regulations, and which, in mentioning The Regulations Act, allows for the two years of retroactivity. In The Education Administration Act, I point to

section 4(3) -1 am not sure if the member needs me to read it. It says : "Notwith standing The Regulations Act, a regulation made under this Act or The Public Schools Act respecti ng grants or support payable or to be provided may be made effective retroactively; .... " Then it provides for the two-year time period. Regulations are, I am inform ed , always appr oxi mately one year subsequent to the release of a funding book. Mr. Plohman: The minister said that there were, in the yellow book, some changes to the Schools Finance Program this year.

She pointed out that there were several changes that were listed on page 4. Did any of those affect the actual language of the regulation for this year, because this regulation is now applying to two years? It is applying to the previous year plus this year. Yet it seems that the department has actually made changes during the second year. Do these regulations apply to the previous year or to this year or to both? *

(2300) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, last year in the Estimates we provi de d this yellow fund ing booklet to the critic at that time. As I said, regula tions fol low appr oxi mate ly one yea r su bseq uent. So we have now provid ed the

4535 LEGISlATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 regulations in line with the yellow book on the ed funding formula which was released last year. We have made changes this year which are noted now in the yellow book regarding funding for the school year '93-94. The regulations regarding those changes will be brought forward then next year. As I have said to the member, the regulations are usually approximately one year subsequent. Mr- Plohm an : Mr.

Depu ty Ch airpe rso n, the minister is saying that she is bringing in regulations in June that were, in some instances, for an obs ol ete pr ogram , regula tions to legali ze something that no longer exists. For example, a lower di visor was used for the calcula tion of full-time equivalent instructional units in small rural high schools and sparsely popu lated school divisi ons. When the regu lations are drawn up dealing with small high schools and the full-time equivalent is set out, that no longer applies to this year, so we have a regulation here that is already obsolete. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, again this partic ular process, as I have said, requires the conceptualiz ation and the ability to speak about the funding formula and in a way that school divisions are able to apply it. Then the conce pts ar e translated into legal terminology. This is complex, as the member himself has said, and that is why there is usually a time lag from the actual-from the time that the information is put out to school divisions till the time of the legal regulations.

But, as the member said, we are looking to cover what occurred last year, and now we will be making regula tions to inco rpo rate any cha nges which occurred this year. I would remind the member that he might like to speak to his colleague the former Minister of Education, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). It was the same proce ss, the same time fram e exi sted when that memb er's party was in government. Mr. Plohm an: I thank the minister for that clarification, and we will perhaps have another chance to discuss that at some point.

Right now I wanted to ask the minister if she had any policy papers on ed finance, any additional information on legislation. I notice that was also part of the functions of the finance

section of this department. Could the minister share with us any information on the latest on poli cy information dealing with finance? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Dep uty Ch airper son, the highl i�jh ts or the changes that have been incorpo rated are al ready within this particular documEmt. I can tell the member that I said from the begrinning this funding formula was active and dynamic, and the committee on ed finance met this morninll· as a matter of fact, to look at any changes for the following year. Mr.

Plc)hm an: Coul d the minister pr ovide or indicate to me where in this information I could find the impact of the 2 percent across-the- board cut this year on each division? Will I find that in the FRAME Report as to the perce ntage increase or decr ease for each di vision as a res ult of the across-the-board 2 percent c ut? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the effect of any r•3ductions would be found and discussed in 16 .5 (d). (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Deputy Ch airperson, in the Chair) Mr. Plohm an: We can discuss it at that time. I am asking the minister if she can provide a listing of that.

We may very well get to that tonight, so I would like to get that information now. That is why I am as:king for it. The 2 percent cut on each division, how that has impacted on each division and the tax increase, the local levy increase that each school di vision has appl ied this year. I under stand that some have incr eased by 15 percent, for example , Kelsey, because they could exceed the cap, and I would also like to know which school divisions were allowed to exceed the cap.

So we• would have the impact of the 2 percent, how it manifested itself in each division, the local levy incn3ase or decrease or whatever it might have been, and which divisions were allowed to exceed the cap. Mrs. Vo,drey : Again , that information would be covered under 16 .5(

d) where we will have a chance to look at what the support to school divisions is and also what the effect of the 2 percent cap is. Mr. Plohman : Yes, that is where I am going to ask questions about it. I just wan t the information now, and I am asking the minister if she can provide it, if she has a listing of this in a handy form, either in a booklet -or just on a sheet, so we have that for discussion when we get to (

d) in this section.

�· June 21, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4536 Mrs. Vodrey: I do not have that informa tion available at this moment, but I will see the member gets it as quickly as possible. Mr. Plohman: Could the minister indicate when she can have that? Mrs. Vodrey : As quickly as possible. Mr. Plohman: Well, first of all, we are not asking for any really difficult information here. It is how the 2 percent reduction has man ifested itself division by division. Is that not standard information you would have from the budgets each of the school divisions have submitted months ago?

Has that not been compiled on one sheet? Mrs. Vodrey: I understand what the member is asking for, and I have said I will provide him with the information as soon as possible. Mr. Plohman: Well, I need something better than that. It is not too helpful to talk about as soon as possible, because the minister has used that term qu ite often in these Estimates on previous occas ions. She was going to have an announcement on boundary review as soon as possible. She was going to provide more information on Francophone division as soon as possible. What is it? What does that mean? * (231 0) Mrs.

Vodrey : Again, I am endeavouring to get the information for the member, and I will get it as soon as possible. Mr. Plohman: Does that mean tonight? Mrs. Vodrey: If it is possible, it will be tonight. If it is not possible for this evening, it will then be tomorrow at the start of the sitting. Mr. Plohman: The minister says, possible. Since she does not have a printer here to make up the forms, would that indic ate she believes that she may have these copies in the form that would be convenient to distribute? Mrs. Vodrey: I have taken note of the member's request.

Staff is working on it as we are speaking, and I will attempt to give it to the member as soon as possible. Mr. Plohman: So the minister is saying they are trying to get it in a form that can be distributed this evening yet. Is that what the minister is indicating? Mrs. Vodrey: I have said that I will distribute it as soon as pos sib le. If I can arrange to have it available by the end of this evening, I will provide it at the end of this evening. Otherwise, I will provide it at the beginning of the sitting tomorrow. Mr. Plohman: I do not ha ve to repea t wha t information we want again?

Can the minister tell me what she is getting ready for us? Mrs. Vodrey: Delighted. The member has asked for a list by school division of the impact of any changes on schools' funding, and also the impact of the 2 percent. Perhaps he would like to tell me now, is that exactly what he has requested or is there anything further? Mr. Plohman: I am surprised the minister missed a couple of portions of it if I have been so repetitive here as they would like to cla im. What about the cap, those divisions that were allowed to exceed the cap of 2 percent of the special requirement this year as provided for in Bill 16 .

Will that be part of that information as well? Mrs. Vodrey: As the member checks Hansard, he will see that I did include tha t in what I said I would provide for him. Mr. Plohman: Just now you did not. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, also does the minister have a compilation of the professional development days proposed for elimination in each division? Would she have that available? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have some information for the member on the pub lic sector reduced work wee k. It is not by division.

I will remind the member, accor ding to the bill, that divisions do report that information to the Minister of Labour. I do have some inform�tion. It is as of June 3, 19 93 ; all divisions have not reported yet; and I understand at least one division may be making an adjustment to what has been originally reported. I am pre pared to table this information so far. Mr. Plohman: I thank the minister very much for that information. I appreciat e having a copy of it. Would the minister also have a breakout of the number of staff reduced in each division, teachers and support staff? Mrs.

Vodr ey : No, we would not ha ve tha t information. They are not required to report that. Mr. Plohman: In their budget decisions, would not the school divisions provide that? For example, in the Kelsey School Division budget, which I have a copy of, which they prese nted to the minister, they

4537 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 went through a number of areas and gave a lot of detail. I assume every school division does that on how they are arriving at their final budget. They go through much detail in how they come to an eight staff reduction in instructional staff at least. Is that not a standard format for all school divisions? Do they just do this as they would like, or is there a standard format for them to submit their budgets? (Mr. Depu ty Chairper son in the Chair) Mrs.

Vodrey: The school divisions do not provide individual lists of who they will be employing, and how they will be employing those people. They send us, instead , a numb er of peopl e employed. We can look at the number of people employed comparatively, to then see if there is any reduction. But what may look like a reduction now may, in fact, by the time of the fa ll, not be a reduction. Mr. Plohman: The minister gave us a copy of the Public Sector Reduced Work Week listing, and she prefaced that by saying the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) keeps these statistics and so on, but she did table it.

This is not by division. Has the minister been able to detect any pattern in those divisions with high mill rates, in the higher mill rates

section of the overall comparison with all divisions in the province, that those with higher local mill rates tend to be requiring more days being tak en? Is there any pattern like that, that the minister's staff have noticed, or have been able to detect? Mrs. Vodrey: From the information we have at the moment, there does not appear to be a pattern. Mr. Plohman: One of the things before we start moving forwar d here: Could the minister provide us with an up dated break out of the FRAME informa tion for '93-9 4, to the extent that it is available?

I know that these final com plete reports are perhaps a little delayed in coming out; for example, we have the '92-93 report. To what extent does the minister have the '93-94 information that would compare to the '92-93? •

(2320) Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that we only received the last budget last week, so we are not able to provide that comparison at this time. Mr. Plohman: We ll, you already have all of the information. It is a matter of compiling it, and it is all done in an automated way, would it not be, through the computer system? Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. De puty Ch ai rpe rson, I understand that the FRAME budget will not be out or available for about a month. If the member has some very specific information, we could try and get that information for him, but, in total, we would not have the budgets for a month. Mr.

Pl cth man: I can see on the various divisions, comparison division by division, that would be the case since they have been coming in.

Could the minister provide us with a breakdown or breakout of the financial support to public and private schools based on program; in other words, the same forma t that is used in the FRAME inform ati on: regular progr am, exc eptional pr ogram , vo cational pr ogram , comm un ity educ ation and se rv ices , school di visio n adminis tration, instructional and pupil sup port ser vicos, student trans por tation services, operations and maintenance and fiscal services, a breakout of the information. Mrs. Vctdrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair person, what the member is asking for is, again, a lot of the detailed work which would go into the FRAME Report. As I have explained to him, we would not be able to have thc:1t much detailed information for him in the range of areas that he is asking. It is basically what will be requir ed within the whole report and that report w:ill take approximately a month before it is compiled. Mr. Plohman: Well, I just want to take issue with that a bit with the minister.

I can understand, based on information that has come from school divisions in terms of comparisons, but we are talking about the grants that the m'mister developed in February when she made the funding announcement. We are not breaking this down by school divisions. I am talking about overall for the province , regular program , vocational, exceptional and so on, the amount of dollars that the province is spending in each of those areas as compared to the previous year, not by division. Mrs. Vodlrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am sorry . I thoug ht the member was asking division by divisi on .

We can provide him with some macrofigures, but it will not be until we sit again, probably tomorrow or Thursday. Mr. Ploh man : Can I get that for the priva te schools as well? -

June 21, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4538 Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, but when I did table the information he asked for, for independent schools by institution, I believe he will find a lot of the information that he would already like on that sheet. Mr. Plohman: This is one kind of information, but again I did not change the nature of my question when I was talking about private schools versus public schools. It was the global information for ea ch of those cate gories .

The minis ter has provided a listing of the total grants for each of the schools, but what I wanted was the same breakout of information by category, by program , for the private schools just as for the public schools, but not private school by private school, overall. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chairper son, we will make every effort to get that to the member as soon as possible. We will try to get it to him tomorrow. We are not able to do that because of the lateness of the hour tonight and the need to be back into Estimates tomorrow, then we will have it for him by Thursday. Mr.

Ploh man: I would lik e to have this long passed by Thursday, for the minister's information. So, if she can get that tomorrow, it would be very helpful for the process here. Perhaps we can, at this point, move through Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: 5.(

a) Schools Finance (1 ) Salaries $73 1 ,400-pass. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, with the understanding that, if we get through the lines to Schools Gr ants tonight, when we ha ve the information, there be no limitations placed on the questions about that information, because we are not under Schools Finance. Mrs. Vodr ey : Mr. De puty Chair person, I understand. Mr. Deputy Chair perso n: 5.( a)

(2) Oth er Expenditures $482,900-pass. 5.(

b) Schools Adm in istration (1 ) Salaries $874 ,2 00 -pa ss;

(2) Other Expe nditu res $39 4,200. Shall the item pass? Mr. Plohman : I notice the refe rence to the responsibil ity for the policy on French Language Services. Can the minister give us any update on the activities of the French language governance process that is ongoing at the present time? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. De put y Ch ai rperson, I am in formed that in this particu lar area the responsibility is to look at which documents, for instance, curricular documents, would be put out in both languages or woul d be put out in single languages.

The area which deals with Fr ancophone governance falls under the area of BEF, which we looked at some time ago. However, I can tell the memb er that the com mu nity meetings are continuing in the area of Francophone governance . I spoke with Monsieur Monnin today, and the com mittee is being extr emely busy. They recognize that there is a great deal of information to be provided to the comm unities, and they are working very hard as a group. Monsieur Monnin told me this morning that he exp ects to have all of the information for registration, considering the July 1 holiday.

When that occurs, he will be giving up to, I understand, about July 6 for all the registrations to have been forwarded to him. Then he will be looking at the registration. *

(2330) Mr. Plohman: So the minister is saying, then, that all registrations will have been compl eted by July 6. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes. As I had said in the past, we were looking for that to be complet ed by June 30, but recog nizing the mail with the 1s t of July falling in the middle of the week or on a Thursday, Monsieur Monnin had sugg ested that we make sure that all registrations are in. So he will be giving until, I understand, appro ximately July 6. Mr. Plohman: Am I to unde rstand ther e have been some changes with tha t com mis sion requested by the Francophone community? Mrs.

Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Ch airperson, I remind the member that we have covered this area, but I am happy to provide him with updated information here. One of the questions that had been put forward or of the issues that had been put forwar d in the beginnin g was that the re be a ma tte r of confidentiality around the registration, and some of the communities had been concerned about a wide number of people having knowledge about whether or not they wished to register their child. So they had asked for the registration to be seen only by Monsieur Monnin, and that was agreed.

4539 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 21 , 19 93 But then, during the pr ocess of the implemen tation, Monsieur Monnin said that there had been some discussion from the communities. They were concerned to have then only a single person to view the regis tration. So we have made an approach to Elections Manitoba that they would act as impartial scrutineers, and I know that the memb er's party has agreed and has signed a letter to allo w that to happen. The Liberal Party has also agreed to that. Elections Manitoba working for the Legislature had to have the suppor t of all three parties.

In doing so, I spoke to Monsieur Monnin this morning to let him know the status and that is the way we will be looking. Mr. Plohm an: Just briefly, could the mi nister perhaps under take to provide a li sting of any leg islative ini tiatives under the acts that she is responsible for at the present time at some time in the future, or tomorrow's sitting, if pos sible? One other thing under this section.

I just wanted to ask the minis ter if she could provide as well a listing of all of the boards and comm issions that migh t be under her responsibility here and the mem bership of those boards and commis sions at the present time. A handout in that regard would be satisfactory if we want to move on. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair person, I have the informati on. I just need to get it copied, so I will han d it out tomo rrow at the beginning of the session. Mr. Plohman: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. Dep uty Cha ir per son : S.(

b) Schools Adminis tration

(2) Other Expenditures $394,200- pass. Ite m S. (

c) Schools Information System

(1) Salaries $383,400. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, could the minister tell us what exactly will be expected at the end of this year? I under stand that this part of the Schools Information System is to deal with the schools rather than with the students. So what would we be looking for at the end of the year here? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chair person, this project is on

schedule to provide Phase I functionality in September 19 93. Phase I of the EIS will correct information on school divisions , schoo ls , courses and sub jec ts thr ough out Ma nitoba. This in formation will be in teg rated in to existing departmental systems to ensure a consis tent basis for decision making and program analysis. In Se1pte mber 19 93, the department will provide the minister with a status report on the progress of Phase I and will request authority to proceed with Phase II.

Ph ase II, det aile d functional requi re 1me nts , is planned to be compl eted in Decem ber of 19 93 , and Phase II will pr ovide information and analysis on student dem ographic information in K to 12 throughout Manitoba. A com mi ttee com pr ised of sup eri ntende nts , sec retc 1ry-tr easurer s and principals has been formed to provide advice to the department on the imp lem enta tion of EIS and to act as a commun ication vehicle to the field. The comm ittee is formally named the School Admin istrative Data Workin!;l Group. Ms. Friesen : I am not sur e I got those dates.

Phase II is September '93 to December '93? Mrs. Vc)drey : Pha se I will be comple ted in September 19 93, and then from Septe mber to December they will be looking at the det aile d req uirem ents requi red for Phase II, and those req uiremen ts are to be subm itted to the minister by December '93. Ms. Frle1sen: Then, from December to the end of the fiscal' year, does the minister anticipate that that data will begin to be collected? Mrs. Vodrey: Aga in, we would have to look at what the1 detailed requirements were when they were subm itted in December 19 93.

If there were no revisions or changes in that, then we would expect to receive the first data September 19 94, but again it would be con tingen t upon the submission. Ms. Frle1sen: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, are we looking at a 12 -year program here? That is, are we going to begin by collecting material at the Grade 1 level and then adding to it, or is it the intention to look at the system over all? *

(2340) Mrs. Vodrey: We ar e not looking at a li near compi laticm of inform ation; instead, we are looking to compile� it more holistically, and we would expect to be comp leted within a 24-mon th period. Ms. Frle! len: Will reserve schools be included in this, and will private schools be included? Mrs. Vodlrey: This will not include band schools, and it will not include independent schools.

June 21 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4540 Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 5.(c )

(1) Salaries $383, 400-pass; 5. (c)( 2) Other Expenditur es $657 ,00 0-- pass ; 5.(

d) Schools Grants: (1 ) Operating Grants $573,684,700. Mr. Reid: You had me worried there for a minute, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Big num bers seem to pass very quickly in the Estimates process and we spend a lot of time on the smaller amounts, at least that has been my experience. I would like to ask the minister a few ques tions about just general policy or requirements of the Department of Education of school boards and divisions.

Can the minister give me an indication on whether or not school divisions must keep a reserve pool of funds available for contingencies or emergencies, and what that per centage might be? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. De puty Chair, there is no requirement by the Department of Education and Training. Mr. Reid: It was my understanding then, and the minis ter can correc t me if I am wrong, would that only be something that might be advised by the auditors of school division funds? Mrs

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-86b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 86b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b1b92fde6b8c4e1e8589757ac00c79200bc5d2ca

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).