Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 8, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 47

April 8, 1976 'l11e House met at 2:00 P.:M". ~·'r. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 1<!07 NJ!- 1 1'1' • SPEAKER : Order, please~ I am pleased to ~~elcome to the galleries this afternoon,and to welcome on behalf of all hon. members, tvm groups of students who will be spending part of the afternoon here. One is a grade eight group from St. Regis School in Fox Harbour, Placentia Bay,and they are accompanied by their teacher, Mrs. l"ary King;and the second is a grade six group from Vanier Elementary School in St. John's accompanied by their teacher Nrs. Betty 1i-lells, I know all han. members - SOME RON. ~El''BF.?.

S: Hear~ Hear~ 1-AR. SPEAKER: - and that is evidence that all hon. members welcome these young Newfoundlanders and hope that their visit here this afternoon will be interesting and informative. STATEt-iENTS BY ~UNISTEllS : 'IR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries . "~ .• TJ. CA'P.TER: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to announce to the House today t~at the government has approved a new programme of leasing fishing vessels to fishermen who lack the necessary financial resources and cannot otherwise obtain them. We have become painfully aware, Mr.

Speaker, that because of the high cost of newly constructed boats, and the corresponding high cost of used boats, it has become almost impossible for many of our fishermen to finance boats suitable to their needs. There are many factors that have contributed to this situation; increased lahour cost, building materials, electronic ana hydraulic equipment and engines are among the most important factors. As fishing effort must increase to offset decreases in available resources, there must be more money spent on electronic and mechanical devices for detection of fish.

Perhaps the most serious blow was tre reduction in the federal subsidy from fifty to thirty-five per cent. This resulted in f~er boats being huilt,which in turn resulted in a seller's market for those boats that were available. At present there is a rapidly increasing 5125

April 8, 1Q76 Tape No. 1907 NM - 2 NR. W. CARTER: demand for fishinB boats and correspondingly high increases in sale prices. ~!y department, Mr. Speaker, and the government in general is a~rare that if the inshore and near offshore fishery was to continue, if fishermen were to operate their own vessels, that new methods ~.rould have to be found to finance suitable vessels. He also knew that the EJituation was critical enough to demand immediate attention. In our Province today, Mr.

Speaker, there are a great many fishermen with proven ability and interest and experience but who are denied a chance to enter the fishing industry because of the lack of the required dm.rn payment to purchase a fishing boat and the necessary working capital for its operation. The fishing industry, indeed the Province as a whole, Mr.

Speaker, can ill afford the loss of their potential productivity, and as Minister of Fisheries it is my intention to do everything possible to ensure that our fishermen are given the same opportunity to pursue their chosen vocation as that afforded other Newfoundlanders who have elected to pursue other professions or fields of endeavour. I can now give you the deti'lils of this nevr programme. Basically the ~isheries Loan Board will lease a limited number of used fishing vessels to bona fide f1 shemen with proven ability and integrity.

It will be the responsibility of the Fisheries Loan Board to Pnsure that ~tll leased vessels are in good working order and title of the vessels Pill remain with the board during the term of the le~tse. The fee for leasing Hill he computed hy a formula using the age of the vessel, its appraised value,and the estimated number of productive years remaining. Fees will be paid in advance on a semi-annual basis,and each lease will be for the term of three years with the option of renewing. These, Mr. Speaker, are longliners anywhere from thirty-five to sixty-five feet.

The fishermen will be responsible for maintenance and operating expenses as well as providing gear for the vessel. Hm.Jever, in the event 5.12.6

~·· - 3 '1' . \-1. C.Al'Tl'": of najor repairs the f:!shc~n ,,.~lJ he rC!:j•onsihlc for an acC'unt: equal to seven per cent of his :mnuill p3)'1l'Cr.ts or ~5"!" , .. ·IU.c::,ever is more , trith the hoarll hrinr. rf'spons1 .hle- ant' I nran tic n sheries Loan !:oanl-oeing responsible for tl.c rrmaindcr. "1'. SI'i:''l'lNS: ~ ~M t:ba t is the ren:ain<' cr? ·~. ' '· ~~nTr.P: ~even rer cent of t~e annual payments or $~00, •:hichever is more, \.rith the board beinB rcspon!\i hlr for thr. remainder. ,.,. !\U'1'0NS: Vlould tlle minister o.bo incli cato ··!1ethcr - ,.,.. •1 . r~l'Tf:!': lould l Uni.sh , "r .

Speaker , mAybe nfter . Should any f5shr.T'l'Ul.n want to purcl>3s<' a hoat he js leasinr,,hr may rlo so by arr~or,ing fin:~ncinr, for t he ou tstandjn~ l> al anc~ of the Rp-.•·n~sccl vnlue . And I should add, Mr . Speaker, that v!um J :;;ty he should arrange f1nancing.that finnncinr. would, all things bPing equal, be availa~le from t~e Fisheries Loan Board. 1 \:ould menti on here t hat fishernen 1:ishing to avail of this programc:e 5127

AprH 8, 1976 Tape 1908 IB-1 will be encouraged - I think this is important, ~~r. Speaker,and I wtl 1 repeat - f:fshermen wishing to avail of this programme will be encouraged by the Fisheries Loan Board and by my department to set up limiten liability companies rather than take the boats on as individuals. It is felt that this would be of advantage to the fishermen in that their tax burdens would be less and their personal liabilities would be diminished.

I fi~ly believe that a lot of our fishermen coulcl. be availing of tax benefits that are no~• available to other corporate entities,but because they are not a limited liability company they are unable to avail of these benefits. That :1 s why ,.,e are encouraginp: our fishermen to become involved in that sort of thinv. It is my intentjon as well, Yr.

Speaker, to initiate a programme to provide instructions to our f:lshermen,or a member of his family, maybe his wife or his c1.aughter or son,in the field of bookkeeping and accounting,because it has been shown that many of their financial difficulties j_n the past have stemmed directly from the need for a better understand in~ of business and financial matters. In short,1.'e will try to help them set up a simple yet proper bookkeeping system. ~1 r. Speaker, J think it is true to say that we have the best fishermen in the worlc1 in Newfoundland. SO~'E HON. ~'E}'JlEPS: Fear, hea.r!

YR. l<. c: .~.r'l'£!': This is not a reflection on them, but we probably have the worst bookkeepers in the fishing industry,and consequently I am afrair1 a lot of theiT' are ·getting in trouble, are not making allowances for ·depreciation on eear and heats. They are not claiming tax credits for the use of vehicles :Involved in their business,and that is some­ thing that we have to hopefully correct. T am happy to say, !'r. Speaker, that we will be able to start this new programme, heat leasing, w:l.thout add:lnr. any addUional staff to our department at this t:l~. However should the programme become 5128

April il, 197F. Tape 1908 IB-2 NR. W. CATCTEP.; il.S popular as I fee] H will he~1ve •rill be forced to add adc"itional staff as necessary to administer the programme. SO¥E HON. ME}1llEPS: Hear , hear! ~'1L Sl'T\AKER: T}]e hon. me!T'her for Fogo. CAPT. 'HNSf1P: ~·r. Speaker, I am spe1lkinp: on beha] f of this sirle of the House. I al" sure 1ve f!re very pJe~;~sec1 to hear the minjster's annonnce!'lent. Rut before I cfl.n really col".I!lent on it to to any extent, I would appreciate a conv of the minister's statement so that we can rearl it artd study it. r~. H. rAl'TEP : I have tabled that copy. CAPT.

WINSOR: Pine. Thnnk. you very much. Tlo'<ever, ~lr. ~peal<er, now with this programme; c'oes this mean that the government •rill he hirinr the fishermen and their crew? How are they going to do the hir:lng? Pill it be i!one throup;h the master of the boat,or a joint pr0p;ra1'1me hetrveen the master and the cre1·r rJho will operfl.te that veRsPl? Further, Yr.

Speal<er, rloes this me:'ln nor,, thfl.t one sector of the fjRhermen will be gettinp the:ir boat at fl. very cl:eap cost,1~hi]e the other Jnan 1•ho is try :in~ to exist and who nm• o<-ms hi fl ho<'lt is sti 11 r.oi.n)C to lwve that problem of great expePse, insurance and fuel, etc. etc.? Are we m1'!kinp f1 i!:lstinction now between the t"•o types of f:! Rhermen, the fishenn;m Hho is tryinf to strive and keep afJ oat with what he o"ms, or is he goinp to be in col!'petition vr:!th the fishermen ,,,[,e> the government js r;ojng to hire a long] iner to?

Th1s tR along the J:ines r.rhic]> I 11dvoc11ted jn thts House last year, l'r. Speaker. T tldnk ne>t only tl1c ] onr:J iners, but the government should take serious thought of perhRps h:l.r:lnp, some of .the draggers we have along those l:lnes. I agree Fith the 1dntster that taking away some of the bookkeeping, or train:inf the fj sr.ermen to J ook after their b0oks :! s a food :idea, hecause it iR the government who has made bool<keeping so co1!1pl:lcatec1 for the fishermen, and not only f0r fi.sherrren but for people "'hoJ l·r~tb aven1ge e<'ucation, yon kno•r, just find it very difficult to keep 5129

Tape 1908 tB- 3 C..hPT. WL~~OR: up-to-rlate ~ith all of the bookkeeping t hey ~ave to do . And most of the tiwe they are ooint it on government ' s behalf, ~he ther it is federal or pr ovincial . So, ~~. Speaker, after reading the minister's statemP.n t later on 1 l'light be able to cornent further. But ~·e certainly appr eciate t hat this is a step in t he right direction . Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the new minister after all has got some good programmes hidden somewhere, developed by other m:lnisters,of course. But it just so happens that he falls into the fOSition ~1h e re he is in a position t o adopt them .

So we certainly appreciate and I am sure the fishermen - the fish ermen who are :Involved or whol!l this will effect will be rre:~t1y surprised that the government has co~e up with this,and r am sure most of th~ ~1Ul find it very helpful. 5130

April 8, 1976 Tape 1909 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. J. R . SMALLI/OOD : Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the government in general,and the minister in particular, for this very fine announcement that the minister has just made. It so happens that I am the one person in this Chamber who introduced the longliner to this Province. There were no longliners before Confederation, they came after, and they came with very active and very energetic and. I may say,generous help from the Government of Newfoundland at that time. It is true that they were over done in the course of the years.

It is true that longlining became more and more difficult to pay, to be profitable. That was not the fault of the longliners, that was not the fnult of the skippers or the crews of the longliners, that 1~as the fault of the dwindling stacks in the 1mter. The same amount of time, the same distance, the same expense in a longlier brought half of the amount of fish because .of the dwindling supply of fish as the years passed, but that is a horse of another colour. That is another subject.

The minister now tells the Bouse that he is bringing in a scheme under \vhich a company- and he suggests strongly that it should not be a purely personal effort by one man coming to the goverrunent as an individual.

He does riot exclude that, I gather, but he recommends that instead of one individual man coming and renting a longliner from the goverrunent, renting it so much rent payable in advance twice a year,with a certain proportion of the rental to go toward repairs and upkeep, and I suppose a certain proportion of it to go toward insurance and the like - that it should be companies, a man and two or three or four other fishermen form a company, and that it is the company that should rent the boat from the government, That is par~ly for tax purposes, it would ease the tax burden, the federal or any other tax burden, and also it would encourage the idea of the co-operative idea, not a skipper hiring - and in reply to my han. friend, the Fisheries spokesman for the official Opposition, a man who has the respect of every hon. member of 5131

April B, 1976 Tape 1909 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood : this House; I say in comment on what he said, that he is absolutely right, and I am sure the minister will appreciate this, we must not set up a scheme to rent longliners to groups of fishermen on better terms than those enjoyed by the men who have built those longliners through the Loan Board and so on. We mus't not put them in a competitive advantage over the others, but I am sure the minister has that very much in mind. And altogether I must say he has stolen my thunder.

I have notes, anc if the House doubts it, I will produce them, I have the notes for the remainder of my speech on the Address in Reply in which I am going to deal with this very matter, and carry it several steps further along than the minister as so far announced. uut I will not be surprised if he has these same ideas in mind, that today's is only the first installment. I have . to say here in all honesty, I know I only have five minutes, I have to say in all honesty that I believe I tried to defeat the hon. gentleman in the general election.

I put a very good man in that district, John Devereaux, an• excellent man , a good Newfoundlander. He would have made a good member. But I am glad that the hon. minister did get elected, and I think he is going to give Newfoundland really good service. SOME RON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SMALLWOOD: I would like to see John Devereaux here too, you know. 5132

'!'ape No. 1<110 '"'·. S'PEJ\KER: If the han. gentleman is going to speak to the ministerial statc.ment - l"'. J. IHNS(lP : If I may. Nl1 - 1 up. • SPEAKER: - that the right of the official npposition has already heen exercised ry the hon. member for Fop;o. Tt is the leader of anv group in caucus or his designate. AN UON. ~}ffiER : lly leave? MR. SPEAKETl: 1ly leave anyhody and everybody may speak . Are tl1ere any further statements by ministers? PBTITinNs: ·~. SPF.AYY.~: 'T'he hon. member for St. Ceorp;c's. Ml'~. }!CISAAr;: Mr. Speaker, I heg leave to present a petition on beh!llf of 759 residents of St.

George's anrl Stephenvill" r.rossin2 in the d1strict of St. George's. The prayer of the petition is as follows: "1,Te the undersigned rlo humbly petition the (',overnment of ~ewfoundland and Labrador to request that public hearings be held throughout our Province to obtain information and hear briefs on the matters covered by the government's White Paper on the proposed sno1nnohile legislation,and further that no such legislation be enacted prior to the holding of such public hearinr,s." ''r. Speaker, in commenting,I fully support the prayer of the petition.

I <·•oulcl say that any comments 1 may make at this time have already been made by members presenting petitions on the rroposed snopmobile regulations,but I do believe that the general feeling of snoT.rmobilers is that their rights and priviler.es are heing jeopardized,possihly unnecessarily. I do hope that the government will consider this petition and consider holding public hearings throughout the Provi.nce to )!ive the general public a chance to voice their opinions on it. I ask that the petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME RON. ~Rns· Hear!

Hear! 1'1'. SPEAKEP.: The han. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. 5133

April 8 1976 Tape No. 1910 NM- 2 }m. SIMMONS : I would like to rise in support of the petition so ably presented by my friend ~nd colleague,the member for St. George's (}Irs. Mcisaac) • The prayer of the petition is similar to that one which I presented here some time ago,and of other petitions which have been tabled here in the House, and I believe by now the Minister of Tourism and his colleagues are quite aware of the considera~le concern that exists as a result of the "1-Jhite Paper.

I agree with a statement t~at the minister made some time ago,that a White Paper is just an indication of possible legislation p~t out; or possible regulation,in this case\put out for some dialogue. It is too bad that did not get said originally,because a lot of people had the very genuine impref.sion that this was a clear indication not only of what legislation was being contemplated,but they felt, r ·believe with some good reason, as a result of some statements made by the minister initially- I am talking about two or three months ago- they felt that this in effect was the legislation in an informal draft form.

Since then the minister has eased the concern somewhat by indicat:l.ng that this is for dialogue purposes. I cannot think of a better way, ~r. Speaker, to foster that dialogue than the way ~~hich has been suggested in the petition; that the minister and his officials make available to the people of Newfoundland, all over the Province, here on the Island and in Labrador, make available a forum whereby they can express themselves, can through a hearing register not only their objections, Mr.

Speaker, but more important their suggestions for the kind of legislation which will · at once give the sno~Tffiobile owner the responsible freedom to use his equipment, and at the same time give protection to wildlife and to life generally, and bring some order to the use of the snm~ machines, particularly within municipal:l.ties. 5134

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1911 Page 1 - mw MR. SIMMONS: I am delighted to rise and support the petition presented by my colleague, and to urge the minister and his officials to give the prayer of that petition much consideration, and as a result I hope that we will have the hearings that have been requested. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rose yesterday to present this petition. However, I beg leave to present a petition on ~ehalf of 109 residents of the community of Garden Cove, ~lacentia Bay.

The prayer says: "We the undersigned re!jidents of Garden Cove in the district of Bellevue petition the Government of Newfoundland to up~rade and pave the approximate three miles of road from the Burin Peninsual highway to and through the community of Garden Cove." Mr. Speaker, this petition, of course, is just one in the many in the continuing story of bad roads and the need for permanent repatts, and quite possibly, of course, pavement. Mr. Speaker, I have five minutes that I could use to elaborate and talk about this petition. However, I think that is all that needs to be said.

And after the terrible waste of time that took place in this House, especially yesterday afternoon, I would request that there is not much need for anybody to get up and support this petition. I would be just as happy if nobody supported it. The only person that I would like to see support this petition is the hon. Minister of Highways. He can do that without talking about it, and do it in another tangible way. So, Mr. Speaker, I thoroughlv support the petition, of course, myself. If not, I would not be presenting it. And I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 5135

April 8, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Tape no. 1911 Page Are there any further petitions? The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 2 - IIIW At the risk of drawing the ire of the gentleman from Bellevue.(Mr. Callan) - PREMIER MOORES: His ire is up • MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, with respect, I am not terribly concerned whether his ire is up or down. That is his problem, Mr. Speaker. But I said at the risk of drawing his ire, I would like to say a word or two in support of the petition, a procedure which I understand is permitted under the rules of this House, the rules which have been in effect for so many years.

The hon. gentleman, Sir, I thought presented it well, and I thought he said what needed to be said, and that is fine. But that does not mean,nor should it mean,- and I think it is very wrong of the hon. gentleman to try to pretend that it means that other members who wish to say a word or two may not say a word or two. The hon. gentleman represents the district of Bellevue. He represents the people of Garden Cove, who live in that district, and that is fine and dandy.

But other people, Sir .·, are as concerned as is he with the needs of these people and with the general condition of roads throughout his district or throughout the Province. So I want to say a word or two in supp 0rt of it.

I think the people of Garden Cove, Sir, are entitled to better road facilities than they have, and I hope that the Hinister of Transportation and Communications, if he chooses not to say a word in this debate or in this procedure, which is his right, I would hope, Sir, ·that when he comes to consider dividing up the $58 million or $59 million, which he is going to ask the Committee to vote to enable him to reconstruct and to build roads, I would hope, Sir, he finds the few hundred thousand dollars which will be needed for the work that should be done on that piece of road between the main highway down the Burin Peninsula, which by the way was paid for almost entirely by the.Government of Canada, between that road and the community of Garden Cove. 5136

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1911 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. And I would say as well to the gentleman from Bellevue (Nr. Callan), Sir, that we welcome his support, whenever he chooses to give it, and we intend, Sir, to support this constituents and the requests he makes in their behalf, whenever we think it is the right and proper thing to do. I would ask him to support our petitions or petitions we present, Sir, when he feels it is appropriate. If he does not feel it is appropriate, Sir, well that is another matter, and he can take it up at a different time.

We support the petition, Sir, and I do hope the people of GaEden Cove get the improved road conditions or the improved road services they request. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition presented by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan). MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: !1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: At this time under Standing Order 84 (

a) I would name the Committee to appoint the various committees under the rules of the House. To be Chairman mf the Committee, the hon. member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford); The bon. member for Mount Pearl (Hr. N. Windsor) to be a member of it, the hon. member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn), the hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Hr. Rowe), and the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores). 5137

April 8, 1976 Tape 1912 ID-1 The hon. Lea~er of the Opposition. ~. SPEf.KEP: ?-<P • POBE".TS : ~'r. Speaker, a question: Heavens knows I no not object to naming the striking committee. But there is motion No. 3 on the Order Paper 1~hich has to be passed,as I understand it ,before the committee be appo:l.nted. If it has not been passed, I would think, without debate we should pass it. But motion No. 3 which stands in the name of the gentleman, the l'inister without Portfolio reads that the minister is to ~ove that a Committee be appointed pursuant to Standing Order 84, to prepare and report Lists of Yembers.

So should we not just put it to a vote 1 I would hope without debate although I think it is probably a debatable motion, but let us put it without debate and then name the committee and the quicker they bring in their report and the standin g committees are appointed and get to I•TOrk the better the House would be for it, S:l.r. ~R . WELLS: If that is the wish then , Mr. Speaker, we can ~7ait un!:fl that period and I will move it again. l'!P.. ROREJ<.TS: Call jt first in the day ann ~Te will put it through. HP.. • SPEJ\KF.P : That has been noted. OPAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Leader of the Opposition. }IR, ROBJ':PTS: Thank you, ~~r. ~peaker. 1'y question, Sir, is for the acting Minister of Public Works and Services, the gentleman from JV!eni.hek (1-'r. Rousseau) in Western Labrador. I would l:l.ke to know, Str, whether the government have adopted a new policy under which they have purchased the vehicles they need, you know, cars and trucks that are used in the public service,outside this Province. !"P. SPEAKFP: ~he han. ~<inister of Forestry and Agriculture. 1-'P.. ~01JSSEA1T: JV!r. Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice.

I appreciate the fact that the han. member may have further questions that he ~·lould like to ask. I do not know of the specific instance he :l.s talki.ng about, but I will certai.nly check 1t out. But to my knowledge that policy :Is a poli.cy of local purchase. But the situation , jf the han. member would like to gi.ve it to me,I will certainly check :l.nto it. 5138

April R, 1976 Tnpe 1912 IB-2 'IP-. 1'!1hRT'T~: \Jell, Yr. Speaker, a supplementary. 'l'he han. rent] eman, I can understand,although 1 believe either he or his colleagues have enunciate~ the policy of purchasing locally as he just mentioned. Perhaps the m:lnister could tell us why the government decided to buy ten trucks from an Ottawa dealer. I can cive h1~ the purchase order notice if he ,.,ants it, 615741 issued by ''r. VJ. Vail,who j_s one of the 1'1iniRter's offidals,on January 6, 1976 reouestinp delivery of the trueks hy .January 15, 1976, ten 1975 Vord trucks brour-ht fror.~ - MR.

R0~___2_ VJhy not give him a copy? '-~r . NJ!lF, nT S : I 1v:l 11 senc'l it to him outside - "cKenzie ~·ercury T"imited, 1377 Tlichmonn Roa,l, nntario for a total cost of $169,620. These trucl:R, Sir, four 0f the111 Here delivered to the nep:1rtment of Transportation herP. :!n St. John's, s1x 1vere delivered to the nepartment of ':r;-nRportation in Crand Falls. HR. ROUSSEAU: ------- I 1vill take that as notice. The han. member for T,aPoile ''r. NEArY: T 1-mu1c1 lil:e to put a question to the hon. the Premier :in the al->sense of the 1->on. "inister of Yunicipal Affairs ancl !Iousing. l,'ould the hon.

Premier tell the House about any agree!"ent that has been I!'ade ~d th a comp11ny 1n the T\'estern part of !1eHfounc11and :!n connection 1dth tl1e t"'•o huilclings at the Harmon r.orporation :fn Stephenville that are r;oing to hP. converted into apartl"ent builcUngs, vrhat the arrangements are Hith this company? Hou]d the hon. the Premier undertnke to. tAhle the agreement Hith this company to turn these buil~:!nc~ over for. one dollar a year? HI' . SPEAKE!'_: The hon •. the "Prer.d er. PT>f,''TER l'00P.ES : 1 vrHJ take the question as notice.

I wil,] also get the Inin:!Rter,Fho probah1y knows the ansv'er :in detail to it, and aflvise hil!l that the han. mell'her has asked the question ancl try to get the rer1y as 11nickly as possible. ''P. SPT\.o'.KEP: Tl1e hon. member for Burgee-Bay c1 'Espoir. '"1 ~H-'1'0NS: ''r. Speaker, in the absense of tl1e ~finister of Finance and the President of Treasury Boarn,I would like to direct a question 5139

April 8, 1976 Tape 1912 IB-3 ~m . SD~'ONS: to the hon. the Pre~~er. I wonder if the PreMier in the absence of the Presiclent of Treasury Board could indicate to the House ~hether Treasury 'Board,or government itself 1 has authorized or instructed the hospital administtation, the boards and corporations and so on, to discontinue honouring any clause or clauses of the Ne~'foundland Nurses'l'nion Collective Agreement . Just a word of explanat~on if t may. 1: ask this in light of the government' 11 fiscal restraint programme. _k!R. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier . PREMIER MOORES: 7-'r.

Speaker, I think it would have been most unlikely,but once again I will have to take notice of the question. But I think it would be unlikely. ~'R. SDCJ~ONS: A supplementary . ~m . SPEAKEP: t recogn i ze the hon . gentleman for a supple~~ntary . MIL Sin<nNS: 't'he Premier has indicated that 5140

April 8, l971i Tape 1913 PK - 1 Mr. Sinunons: he will take that as notice, Perhaps he may want to do the same with this suppleementary which relates to it. I would like to know if the fiscal restraints imposed by the government on the hospital administration boards and so on,are these restraints 1 I ought to say, resulting in the boards nmv being unable to honour the terms of the collective agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer, Mr. Speaker, unequivocally, is, no. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. }1R.

SPEAKER: I assent to the hon. gentleman for one additional supplementary. MR. SD1MONS: Mr. Speaker, I refer,in preambling my question, I refer to the Newfoundland Nurses' agreement 1which came into effect April 1975,and to the best of my knowledge it is still in effect 0 I refer the Premier to

Article 905, entitled "Change of Days Off", and I would ask the Premier - MR. I-JELLS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I refer Your Honour to page 147 of Beauchesne when it says, "A question oral or written must not ask solution of a legal proposition such as inter­ pretation of a Statute etc." I would submit, Your Honour, that

interpretation of a collective agreement would fall within the same bounds, and therefore would not be a proper question. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister without Portfolio anticipates my question, and anticipates it wrongly. I had no intention of putting a question which would require a legal

interpretation of a clause. That was not my question. I was giving the Premier a brief

preamble, giving him a reference, I was about to put the question. It had nothing to do with any legal

interpretations of clauses. 5141

April 8, 1976 Tape 1913 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: On that point of order. Certainly the points made by the hon. minister that no one may ask for the solution of a legal proposition is certainly a valid point. The hon. gentleman says it was not his intention in completing his question to ask for such a legal

interpretation, so I shall recognize the hon. gentleman. I should add as well that in asking questions hon. members may only give such information as is necessary for the understanding of the question. d'Espoir. The han. member for Burgee-Bay MR. SIMMONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In reference to

Article 905 of the Collective Agreement to which I referred,! would like the Premier . to indicate to the House now or subsequently whether he is aware of any breach of this clause by any of the participating hospital boards? PREMIER MOORES: I will take it under advisement. MR •. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I would like to direct a questio~ to the hon. Premier, Sir. Would the hon. Premier tell the House what has happened to the task force that was looking into the possibility of providing assistance to the employees of the Come By Chance Oil Refinery?

Has the Premier received the task force report? If so, would the Premier indicate if the recommendations of the report will be implemented? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, no I have not had a report on it. The 9nly information I have on it- I think probably the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations conld speak better to it than I can - the last I heard is that fifty-four of the people who had been laid off have been placed in employment elsewhere or at other jobs, and that there may have been more who got employment on their own.

Now as far as the official reporting of the task force is concerned, I think, possibly the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Development can answer that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the hon. Premier , Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 5142

Aflt;il 8 , 1976 Tape 1913 PK - 3 ~fR. I'IEARY : Would the hon. Premier tell the liouse if the government have taken the decision on whether or not they are going to :~ssist the former employees of the oil refinery with their mortgages and so on , the results of the meetings that have been held with the union and other people in the area? ~1R . SPEAKER: The bon. Premier . PREMIER MOORES: The answer is that the governmen t will not be assiting the people directly, but we will be assiting them, 1-tr.

Speaker, through making people available to help them get their mortgage conditions straightened out and also possibly there will be othe r avenues as well. But before saying anything in the House I think it is better t'lat I talk to the employees , which was our unrlertakinp.. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo . CAPT • E. t.'INSOR: ~lr . Speaker, a questi on to the hon. Minister of Fisheries . In the statement which the minister read a few minutes ago can he inform the House whether those boats are repossessed boats? And how many of th.em are there ? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . Minister of Fisheries. HON . l,l.

CARTER: Mr . Speaker , it is quite often that we have occasion to repos ses s boats, hoats t hat ar e not f i shing, boa ts owned and at least operated by people who want to get out of the ·industry for diff erent reasons . And these boa ts will be ones that will come in our pos session one way or another i n the next few months,we hope , and they will be , as I said in my statement, put in good shape before they are leased to any potential fishermen. CAPT. WJ,NSOR: 1.1tat is the number ? MR. SIMNONS: Mr . Speaker , a supp lementary. 5143

April 8, 1976, Tape 1914, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: a supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: The hon. gentleman for Burgee-Bay d' Espoir, A supplementary to my colleague's question. I wonder would the minister indicate how many boats are presently available for the purpose he outlined in his ministerial statement earlier this afternoon, and if he would just give us a detail or two about the method of payment. I was not clear whether the fishermen would pay a once annual, or twice annual or a monthly payment or whether it would be an installment. Would the minister just elaborate for a moment? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the information requested is cont;l.ined in the statement. It is a pilot project. We 'Jill be, this year~hopefully, leasing eight or ten longliners. The method that will be employed with respect to the payment is out­ lined in the statement. It will be computed having regard for the age of the vessel, how many years it has left, its appraised value and the payments will be made on a semi-annual, twice a year basis, in advance. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, this question to the Minister of Health, and I might say, Sir, that this question was prompted by a great deal of concern and a great deal of debate in Buchans this 'past few days. Would the Minister of Health please advise the House and me as to whether or not the decision has been made to close the Buchans Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we have not received a request to close the hospital, to my knowledge, and we certainly have not given any consideration on our own initiative. It is all news to me. MR, FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, would the minister advise the House if there is any consideration or any discussions going on 5144

April 8, 1976, Tape 1914, Page 2 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: at this time with a view to closing the Buchans The hon. the Minister of Health. No, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Lewisporte and then the hon. the member for LaPoile. !'ffi. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not the government has formulated any plans with respect to the road from Churchill Falls to Goose Bay, to make it passable for automobiles, particularly cars, this coming summer? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the formulation of any plans or policy with regard to roads in Labrador,and indeed the rest of the Province,will be duly announced in the House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WHITE: I recognize the hon. the member for a supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, would the minister tell the House whether or not he realizes the significance of this road now that a roll-on roll--off car ferry service will be operating this year between Lewisporte and Goose Bay, and that people from the Churchill Falls area will want to go - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would consider that the question is argumentative. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would the minister inform the House if he has any advance notice on increases in gasoline prices in this Province? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: I have no advance notice, Mr. Speaker. What increases are you talking about? Mr. Speaker, I should say that we have advance notice from Prime Minister Trudeau and the Minister of Energy in Canada, Mr. Gillespie, that there is going to be an 5145

April 8, 1976, Tape 1914, Page 3 -- apb MR. CROSBIE : increase in the price of oil on July 1. They have made that plain to all of Canada and they have made it plain to us, and we as a Province are urging that it be kept as low as humanly possible. But they have the final hand in the matter so they certainly announced it well in advance that there will be an increase on July 1 in the price of crude oil. Other than that I have no notice of anything. MR. NEARY: the minister, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to A supplementary .

Has the minister made any representation to the Government of Canada to have the subsidies on heating fuel and crude oil in Eastern Canada increased and if so, would the minister give the House the information? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Hinister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have made representations to the Government of Canada that the prices should decrease. Decrease! MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: No, the subsidies increase. What? The subsidies on oil in Eastern Canada. The subsidies on oil increase? Increase, yes. Mr.

Speaker, we have taken the position, a responsible position as we always take at these meetings, and we recognize that there may be reasons why the price of oil ~y increase on July l, and the subsidy decrease. That is a decision wholly within the power and the responsibility of the Government of Canada. We have put to the Government of Canada our position that we have just as good a case as Nova Scotia 0r P .E. I., in fact, a better case than them for relief from high prices of oil .or energy. We have just as good a case as they have.

Our per capita income and our cost of living and the rest of it would indicate that our case for any special consideration is just as great as Nova Scotia's or Prince Edward Island's. So 5146

April 8, lq7~. '!R. CP.OSRIE: Tape 1915 RH - 1 I have made these representations on behalf of the consumers of Ne,~foundland. HR. !'<EARY: I•Jhen, lvhen did the minister make these? lffi. CROSBIE: !fade at the last energy ministers' conference- ~IR. ~lEARY: Ilm" long ago was that? ~!R. CROSBIE: - made by my officials at a meeting since this and made at the !Linister' s of Finance Conference last week. l.Je are fighting constantly and valiantly to establish our special status in this respect. HR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. }!R. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. gentleman for a supplementary. HR.

NI'.ARY: 'fr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House whether the minister has made representation since the increases have been announced a few days ago, a couple of days ago 1 or were the representations made before the increases were announced? !fR. CTtOST\IE: Hr. Speaker, I do not know what increases the hon. gentleman is talking about. These are representations that have been made since December, l'l75. MR. SPEAt:r:R: The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. I!R • F. ROHE : Mr. Speaker, a question for the r"inister of Fisheries. It relates to his ministerial statement, Sir.

In order for fishermen to participate in this new programme he suggested that they lvanld be encouraged to set up limited liability companies. Does he mean just that, encourage, or Hill it be mandatory? MR. SrEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. liON. W. CARTP:R: No, lfr. Speaker. The fishermen will be encouraged. It will not he mandatory to set up a limited liability company. Certainly it 1.;ould be desirable, ~re think, for them to do that because of the advantages that I have pointed out; tax benefits, maybe sharing the liability amongst a number of fishermen on that hoat.

But certainly it is not our intention to force them to do that, but certainly encourage them. NR. SPEAKER: MR . F. ROl-lE : A supplementary. The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. Will these fishermen who form such companies, form limited liability companies, will they get preference 5147

April 8, 1976. MR. ROWE: Tape 1915 over fishermen who are acting solely as individuals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. RH - 2 MR. W. CARTER: Not necessarily, Hr. Speaker. This pro11;ramme, by the way, will have to be on a very selective basis. We will have to be sure, first of all, that the people who lease the boats are good fishermen, qualified, interested. Certainly I do not think there will be any priority given fishermen that are organized into a company. But certainly we l¥ill be very selective in the people that get these boats under that arrangement. MR. F. ROWE: HR. SPEAKER: d'Espoir. MR.

ROWE: One further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Then the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay Yes, this will be the last one, Mr. Speaker. Sir, in view of the fact that many of our fishermen live in remote areas of the Province,and it would be very expensive for them to get the assistance of a lawyer tn order to incorporate a company - MR. CROSBIE: That is nonsense. MR. ROWE: It is not nonsense, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Order, please! MR. ROWE: I could give the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy some examples.

But is the minister giving any consideration to giving such fishermen some assistance in the way of having them incorporated? Probably the Hinister of Justice could answer the question. But I think it is a problem that will eJ{ist. Fishermen in the immediate area, no problem; people up in the Northern Peninsula, lawyers have to travel or the individual fishermen have to travel. MR . SPEAKER: Tte hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, we realize the problem and the fact that there will be a cost involved. We have been exploring ways whereby that cost can be reduced.

But certainly it is worth thinking about and we will be giving some consideration to how we can assist the fishermen who 5148

April II , lll7f>. ~IR. CAnTHR: Tape 11115 RTI - 3 IMnt to form a limited liability C0111J>any and ~lho maybe do not have the necessary Hhercl~ithall to do it. But we are certainly thi.nkinR about that one. :-!'!. SPMKE R: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay rl ' Espoir. HR . Slt!l'IONS: ~t r. Speaker, I have a question for the ~linister of Industrial Developmen t . About three years aRo, 1973, the land around Bay Bulls was frozen under t he Development Area Lands Act. I am wondering noto/ if the minister could indicate 1~hether that freeze is still in effect at this time? ~m .

SPEAKE It: The hoo . l'li.ni ster of Industrial nevelopment . !!':. LUNDRtGAN: ~!r . Speaker, I have to take the question as notice. 1 :1m assuminp th:~t it is under my judsdiction . The member ohvl.ously has researched the status . I am not familiar with the answer. I have to plead that I am not familiar with it. So I will look into the question. rerhaps my colleague in Forestry and Agriculture mi~ht - t!R.ll.OUSSEAU: l~e had a land freeze on . Is that ·~hat vou at'e talkinp; about? 5149

April 8, 1976 Tape No. 1916 NM- 1 ~. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, for clarification, it comes under the development area and I believe it is administered by the minister's department, That is my understanding. MR . LUNDRIGAN: Which one? MR . Sl• NS : The Bay Bulls area. MR. LUNDRIGAN: No, but which department? MR. Srnl'IONS: The minister's department, the Minister of Industrial Development. Does the minister take it as notice? MP. LUNDRIGAN: Yes. MR . SP EA.~R : The hon. Leader of the Opposition 1then the hon. member for LaPiiile. 'tAR.

ROBERTS: A question again, Sir, for the Hinister of Fisheries and again arising out of his statement today; could the minister tell the House please~Sir, just how the tax liabilities, tax burdens,to use his phrase in the statement, Sir, would be less for fishermen participating under this lease scheme if they were to incorporate themselves as a limited liability company, and then that company were to enter into a lease with the government and the fishermen and his familv or his associates were to be the shareholders in that company? !'!R .• SPEAKER: The han. Minsiter of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr .

Speaker, I think that we all have to agree that the fishermen of our ~rovince are not bookkeepers, they are not accountants,and that is why we are suggesting that maybe we should find a way to instruct the fisherman, or maybe the fisherman's wife or some member of his family,into a very basic and simple system of bookkeeping.

And I am sure that once they become a limited liability company, and I am not too familiar with all the legal involvements,but certainly to me it makes sense that maybe if they were,and if they did have some basic instructions on what expenses,for example, are exempt; for example,to what extent can they claim the cost of operating their pick-ups, or their cars, 5150

April 8, 1<176 Tape No. 1916 NH - 2 "1'. l-1. C.Al''T'E~: or would his •rife he eligible for a salary up to an amount whereby she would not be lost as a deduction for the fishermen. These are things that I am sure are worthy of consideration and exploration,because I think again it is quite obvious that a lot of our fishermen are not operating their businesses in a businesslike way,and today the maintenance and the operation and the ownership of a longliner,which could lnvolve as much as 1':2.'in, nno for ship, boat and gear and working capital, that is a big business.

And I am convinced on the basis of Tvhat T have seen and the finhermen I have talked ~•ith that a lot of them are not operating on a businesslike basis 1 and I thin]( consequently are maybe forfeiting some of the tax exemptions and benefits that could be derived we.re a limited liability company organized and H they were mayhe given some basic and fundamental instructions on the keeping of a set of books. ~"P. 'ROllF.P.TS: ~!r. Speaker, a supplementary. ·~. SPEAKER! A supplementary. ~. RnSF.~TS: I agree with what the minister has to say about (

a) the fact that many of our fishermen are not versed in accounting and,you know,this type of thing, nor would we expect them to be. Secondly,! agree that we should try to get every benefit that is possible under tlw tax la~-rs, \vh1ch heavens knows are onerous enough. ?.ut, Sir, 'vould the minister, and this is the question, 1'r. Speaker, tell us how the formation of a limited liability company will effect the special provisions which are in the Income Tax Act nm• and which .. as I understand operate verv 11:reatly to the benefit of fishermen and farmers. but we have no farmers in this sense.

"'ould the minister tell us how it "'ill effect that. These farmer,fishermen. general averaging provisions operate very greatly to the benefit of our fishermen and would the minister tell us just exactly Fhat effect it r,7ill have? •m. SPEAKER: The hon. Premi.er. 5151

Tape No. 1916 m•- 3 PRE!'•IER "'"'0RE.": "r. Speaker, I would like just very quickly spea~ to the point raised hy the Leader of the ~pposition. We are talking about a lilllited liability company. We are talking about the potential of maybe three or four people being shareholders in that company. If you like it, it is almost a formulization of the share system that may presently exist when it comes to attaining credit through the normal institutions,such as banks and what have you.

That sort of approach on a businesslike basis will have a better opportunity and be more formalized than the present ad hoc, :l.ndiv:tdual case which seems to be the case now. It is not an end·all situation or solution to any problem 1but it may be the way of getting fishermen or groups of fishermen together in a very businesslike atmosphere with the normal ~hannel s to approach. I do not expect everyone to be that way overnight,but I would think in time possibly examples could be shown where it could be beneficial. ~!R. SPEAKER: The bon. ~:l.nis ter of Fisheries. HR. !-1. CARTE~. : t-rr.

Speaker, I would like to - ~~. ROBERTS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker - ~ffi. S P R&~R : A point of order. Ml> • • ROBE -IS : - to a point of order. I listened ~~tth interest to ~vhat the Premier had to say, but I do not think the minster has the additional right, Sir. We do not answer questions serially.

One question is asked and either the minister answers or one of his colleagues answers in his behalf 1 and surely the Pre~er has ans~Jered this question, Sir, and unless I am allowed a further supplementary 1 and I think the gentleman for LaPoile is trying to get a question in, I submit the minister should not be allowed a supplementary answer, Sir. 5152

April ll, 1976 Tape 1917 IB-1 MP •• SPEAKER: On that point of order. When 11 <Juestion has been asked ann it h11s h~en an~were~ by ~ minister, the Premier or any other minister .)Tl!. H. CAT'TET' : On that point of order. It seems to me rather strange, 'lr.

Speaker, that ministers are quite willing and quite anxious and ohviously C]Uite able to enlighten the Opposition ancl the people of Newfoundland hut quite often I have noticed the Leader of the OpposH1on has exercised and no doubt it is his right to do this and he is acting Hith:ln the n1les of the House., but he seems to be qu:f_te anxious to prevent min:! sters from elaborating on statements or on questions. It was only last '~eek t~hen I endeavoured to ansl·cer - l'l'. SPF./IKF.T': Orner, please! 1'1'. H. CATnEP: - a quest5on fro111 the member for Fogo (Capt. l-!insor) - m .

SPEAKF.T' ; Order, please! '~'he bon. gentleman would only be entitled to speak on the point of order which has actually been raised. That was whether when a question has been asker! and an answer gi.ven by any win:lster, the Premier or_ any other min:i ster, 1.;rhether another minister rr.ay then give an acJ.d.:i tional answer or supplement the answer already given. I think one ~uestion reC]uires - or does not require - but :If there is an ans,ver to he ?iven :It would be an answer from one member of the cabinet and it lV<JUld only be by leave that an addition1'!] rninistP.r could give an additional answer.

The hon. member for T.a:Po:lle. ~-::. NEAT'Y: ''r. Speaker, I would like to lmow from the Hinister of Health why his C"fficia.ls tJent to Happy Val]ey-tioose Bay, teed up 11 !"eeting in connection lJith the Paddon Memorial Hospital, t'he closin~ of the Paddon Memorial Hospital to move it on the base, and not :f_nvite representatives of the Town Council, the Chamber of Commerce and the Community Health Council in the area, why the minister's offjcials representing the government te~d up a ~eeting t.•:l thnut jnv-1 tinr. these representatives of these three jt'1portant bon:f _es. The bon.

Y:fnj ster of Hea] th. rr . rnLL TN~ : Hr. ~nealrer, I hac a meeting w:lth the Health Council 5153

April P., 1976 Tape 1917 IB-2 }'J'. rOJ.L INS : in Happy TraJley....C.oose Bay prior to this meeting wh:l.ch the hen. member refers to. '~'he meetin[: to which he refers 1-ras arranged to have the input of the nepart~ent of National nefense, the Pepartment of External Affairs, the J'epartment of Health, federal and provincial. The meetings were cf such a nature that ve had to keep it to that level - when I say to that level, to a federal-provincial level­ because of the internat:fonal implications since we were dealing with a United States ~<ilitary Hospital.

There has been consulation with all the groups since and there is no problem as far as we are concerned. ~. NE.-~ 11Y: \oJell the mayor c1oes not think so, the mayor of Happy Valley. ~!R. SPEAJ~Elt: The hon. member for Terra Nova. ~'1' ..• LTJSJ-l: T have a question for the Y1nister of Educfltion. The teachers of this Prov:l.nce,and indirectly the students,are now without the services, the very valuable serv:lces,I might say,of three consultants.

For the benefit of hon. members,consultants ar·e subject area specialists •rho work in the department of curriculum and instruction and they provide a tremendous service for the teachers of th:ls Province, a tremendous service. So we are now without three, reRding, math and social studies, very major areas. So my question to the minister is when does his department plan to fill these most important and vaiuable positions? Hll . SPF.AT<EP: '!'he hon. ~Unister of Education. ¥R. l~flllSE: tfr. Speaker, these have been vacant for some t:l.me.

As hon. members know in most of the subject areas we did have consultants and we have heen hav~ng a tremendous job keeping them. '!'hey have been comin~ jnto the department and working for five or s:lx months or a year in some cases and ~oving out. Last Fall when the restraint period cal'lE'. on we triecl to freeze as many positions as ~re could for a period of til'le. But this is under review. !•lhile we have not advertised for all the pos1tions, it is under review, and we will be 5154

April R, I 976 TApe 1917 IB-3 1ookinr. at it for t he nex t school yea r. ''ll, SPEAIO::r.: t recoyniz e the hon . gentleman for a supplementary . "!'. LI'SI': A supplel'lentary , l'r. Speake r. I am sorry to hea-c that there was a f-ceeT.e put on the positions . J\ut the !l'l:!nistet: ll'.entioned there ~<as sc~~>e d:! ffi cnl ty in keepi "ne people on t here. \ould the minister explain ~1hy th1s l')ight be so bccause . ll.gain,they are most ill'lpor tant pos:l tions and tl1e trdnjster realizes this . too,! think? ¥!as there anv appa r en t reas on why these people would not Rtay? ~!P .

SPEAKE'!: The hon. t•tn5ster of Educa tion . J'lR. HOUSE: 'Jell T do not knm~ . I coul<l only hazat: d a guess at that pat:t:lculaT th1 np, . Perhaps one of the basic reason s is that thev can r,e t more attractivP. positions wHh o;chool boar<IB hecauRe school hoa r~s are Jookir.r for supervisory peTsonne1 anrl t he hol:lday

schedule for supervisors is bette r with school hoarcls than 1 t 1!; with the nepnrt~ent of f.~ucatjon . ~ lot of people of that natur e ~·onld r;other vo rl<, nor as ci\ril servants. That is one of the reason s . The re ll'~Y be others . "" . ~PF.JI.KE": The hc:m . member for aeJ.J evue. 5155

April 8, 1976 Tape no.l918 Page 1 - ll1W MR. CALLAN: Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

In view of the fact that the intersection at the Come By Chance Hospital, the intersection to Come By Chance and also to Sunnyside, in view of the fact that it is rather foggy in that area most of the time, and the area is not marked very well, has any consideration been given by the minister's department to the idea of probably installing lights, guardrails, some sort of markings there to indicate where these intersections are and, of course, in that way hopefully cut down on possibly serious accidents? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

MORGAN: I will take that question under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: Actually the time has now transpired. The thirty minutes have now transpired so I cannot recognize anybody else. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order No. 2 - Committee of Supply. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, when the Committee concluded its discussions last Tuesday night,the hen. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) was on his feet with his usual kind of piffling nonsense that wastes so much of the time of this House. }!r. Speaker, let me say this, that I like being in here on the estimates, and I like having my department's estimates being discussed, and I like the give and take of debate, and as long as hon. gentlemen opposite keep raising issues, I will keep replying to them.

And I do not want anybody to blame me if it takes a long time to do the estimates of Mines and Energy, because I am quite prepared to go the seventy-five hours on the estimates of Mines and Energy if gentlemen and ladies opposite want to do that. SOME RON. MEl:ffiERS : Hear, hear! 5156

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1918 Page 2 - mw HR. CROSBIE: I also have a lot of information that I would like to give the House, but I cannot get a chance, Mr. Chairman, to answer a question. I have had two, I think it is, forty-five minute speeches or replies since this started on Monday afternoon, and that is all I have been able to get in, and I have had to use that time then to answer outrageous and pusillanimous profusions and pieces of puffery from some hon. gentlemen opposite, and I have not been able to get into the information I would like to give to the House.

Now I want to deal first with the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), because he is a gentleman who has to be dealt with. He seems to have the power of getting his effusions covered, and has to be answered for that reason. Now it is a waste of the time of the House. I know that, Nr. Chairman. It is a wast .e of the time of this House to answer this ridiculous twirpery that we hear from the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), but it has ,to be answered. MR. NEARY: waste of time. MR. CROSBIE: When the House is being misled it is not a It has to be answered, Mr. Chairman, for that reason.

You see~we just heard the hon. gentleman trying to get my goat in saying that the House is being misled, but he is not going to get my goat. I said the other night what I thought of the han. gentleman, that he is hircine, goat like, espe~ially in smell, and he is not going to get my goat. I do not have a goat to be gotten. But he was up the other night. He asked me - he thinks that he is the Clarence Darrow of Newfoundland. He thinks that he is the mighty Clarence Darrow come back in a reincarnation as Steve Neary, the fighting member for LaPoile, and he things that he is trapping the hon. gentleman.

So the other night he asked some questions,leading me down the garden path, down I went, brash as good be, just being led down, with a siren-like figure, the svelte like 5157

April 8, 1976 ~r. Crosbie. Tape no. 1918 Page 3 - lll\ol figure of che aember for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) seducing me forward over the thin ice, and then when be got his chance up he jumped to his feet and broke the ice and I went down through, and he thought he re.ally had me by the whatnots. MR. MURPIIY: I hope he did not. ---- - MR. CROSBIE: Well, he did not . He did not and he does not. 5158

April 8, 1976 Tape 1919 PK - 1 I am not going to enlightened the House on what I have got, Mr. Chairman. Any hon. member wants to chance it will find out. The hon. gentleman asked me about the Julienne Lake concession and Canadian Javelin Limited.

And I had explained what happened to Canadian Javelin Limited, and I said that the Julienne concession had been reclaimed by this House because the original agreement was one that was barbaric, it was atrocious, it was an atrocity, that it was against the interest of the Province; that they had held the concession for fifteen years and they had not been able to develop the known iron ore deposits there.

This government had been in office for three years, they were still making no progress,so we decided it had to be terminated and the magic date was June 11, 1974, that under their oripinal arrangement they had had fifteen years before time even started to run. It was not clear how long after June 11, 1974 they could still hold on to the concession doing nothing, and the government brought in legislation to terminate it. And I said there was no ulterior motive, and I said we had no one elese in mind to develop the concession.

We just wanted to get it back so that if there were any other interested groups they can make proposals. That in substance is what I have said. MR. NEARY: There are no proposals? ~m. CROSBIE: I am not going to bandy words with the hon. gentleman, exactly what the semantics used was. That is what I said, and that is what I meant, and that was the essence of it, and there was no ulterior motive. "le had nobody in mind. In fact, I have got the :.transcript. The hon. gentleman thinks he is such nm.;, such a powerful lawyer that he asked for the transcript from Hansard, and I got a copy naturally, also.

And the hon. gent said, you have nobody in mind? I said, no. There 1·ms no one, there 1.;as no ulterior motive. And I said, right. You know,that is the point• HR. NEARY:. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of personal privilege, Sir. On a point of nothing, Mr. Chairman. 5159

April 8, 1976 Tape 1919 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of personal privilege. HR. CROSBIE: Stop interrupting me. MR. NEARY: On a point of personal privilege, Hr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Stop wasting time. MR. NEARY: Sit down and learn t!J.e rules! When a point of personal privilege is raised the hon. member immediately takes his seat. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member said that I asked for a copy of Hansard. ~ffi. CROSBIE: Yes,that is right . MR. NEARY: That essentially, Sir, is correct. But what I want to know, Mr.

Chairman, is who told the hon. minister that I asked for a copy of Hansard? Any discussions between me and the Editor of Debates, the Legislative Libarian 1 or any other employee of this House, Sir, is private and confidential. And what I want to know, Sir, and I think the minister should tell the House, told him that I asked for a copy of Hansard1 That .i is a private and confidential matter, Sir. MR. MURPHY : He has to get permission to release it. He is not allowed to just hand them out. MR. NEARY: And whoever told the minister has to get my permission before they can tell the - MR. CROSBIE: Nonsense! MR.

NEARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. MURPHY: He has to get permission to release the Hansard. MR. NEARY: The Editor of Debates has to get permission from nobody to release Hansard, Sir, except the Speaker maybe. MR. MURPHY: Right. MR. NEARY: But not the Minister of Mines and Energy, and that is a violation, Sir, of the privilege of this Rouse, in my opinion. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, my - MR. CF.AIRMAN : Order, please! Let me deal with the hon. member's point of personal privilege first. MR. CROSBIE: All right! 5160

April 8, 1976 Tape 1919 PK - 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: In regard to what constitutes a breach of privilege of an han. member,I have had an opportunity to glance, I am afraid rather briefly, but nevertheless reasonably fully through

Section 111 of Beauchesne,and it outlines what constitutes a breach of privilege. I will not read it out, it is too long but I do not see really anything there that would apply to members requesting information from employees or officers of the House as to the activities of other han. members. But I do not understand that a question of personal privilege is involved here. MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Mr.

Chairman, let us just say that it is extrasensory perception that one knows when a slieveen is slieveening around, that one hears,that one senses that the hon. gentleman was going to ask for Hansard, and that is exactly what happened. MR. NEARY: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: The han. Slieveen - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order. I would like to ask Your Honour if the phrase, the term slieveen just used by the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy,who seems to be in a rather foul mood today, if that is parliamentary, Your Honour?

And if it is unparliamentary, would Your Honour ask the minister to retract? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, to save you the embarrassment, I withdraw the word, the hon. gentleman is not a slieveen at this moment. MR. NEARY: I would like to hear the ruling from Your Honour. MR . CijAIRMAN: I will rule - MR. CROSBIE: I will withdraw it. You do ·not need to rule. I will withdraw it, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to upset the gentleaan. HR. CHAIRl1AN: Order, please! The phrase the hon. member objected to 5161

April 8, 1976, Tape 1920, Page 1 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: has been withdrawn,so I think that the point or order is disposed of. MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to upset the bon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: You are not upsetting me, You are just making a fool of yourself. MR. CROSBIE: I do not want to upset the bon. gentleman. So the bon. gentleman when he spoke on Tuesday night brought up, Mr. Speaker, and tried to pretend that there was something wrong in what I had said, that it was incorrect. He was almost gentlemanly in his approach. He did not • say it was untrue, he just said it was incorrect.

Now it is not incorrect. I can be incorrect as well as anyone else, Mr. Speaker, but it is not incorrect and it is certainly not untrue. This House waF. given the full reasons for the withdrawal of the Julienne concession when the legislation was passed in June of 1975, and everyone in the House voted for it. Passed unanimously! There was no ulterior motive and there was no one else in mind. Now, Mr. Speaker, quite obviously during the period that Javelin were not developing the Julienne concession, other people expressed some interest.

Other people said that if this concession was available they might be interested, they might want to make a proposal, certainly . But the obvious proof that no one was in mind, that the government had no one in mind when the Julienne legislation was passed, nobody specifically in mind, and no agreement with anyone, is the fact that no one yet, a year later, has got the Julienne concession; and no one yet, almost a year later,has put in any detailed proposal to obtain the Julienne concession. So that should be proof enough that this foolishness of his is completel¥ foolish. MR. NEARY: You got no proof for it. MR.

CROSBIE: No, nothing in it except general expressions of interest. Now, Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman got up and he started to quote from documents. The documents he quoted from had - I am not sure how he got them. I think he got them from 5162

·.I April 8, 1976, Tape 1920, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: another member of the House; a close friend of his who sits not far from him supplied him with these docUments, And how would that han, gentleman, if my supposition is right ha~e supplied these documents? MR. SMALI.WOOP: To a point of personal privilege. I am quite clos~ to the han. member but I did not give him any documents. I have not seen any documnets, I have not got any documents, If the hon. gentleman, Sir, meant me,take a flat and categories~ d~nial. MR. CROsBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I aever said anything about who I suspect~d.

If the han. gentleman says it was not him - MR, SMALUl'QOD: No, you said sitting quite close • .I MR.. CROSBIE 1 Right! Very close! But if the hon. gentleman says it was not him, I accept that. MR, NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR, CROSBIE; Can I get my speech out at all without this silly confusion and points of order. MR, NEARY: To the point of order raised by my friend the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). MR, MURPHY; The han. member rose on a point of personal privilege a~~ that is not debatable.

MR; · CHAIRMAN : That was a point of personal privilege, I believe. l 4o not think it was a point of order and on the point of persona~ privilege the hon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) has offered information to the House which I would th~nk sati~ffes the situation, unless he wishes to go further. MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could I raise a point of order, Your Honour;"~ MR, CHAI~: A point of order. MR, NEARY: My point of order is this, Sir, that the Minister of ~ines and Energy a few moments ago made a statement that I received these documents from a member who sits very close to me.

Well~I want to categorically deny, Sir, that statement, that I did 5163

April 8, 1976, Tape 1920, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: not receive these documents from the gentleman who sits very near me in this House, namely the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, denial- accepted. I do not care where he got the documents. The hon. gentleman got very tender sensibilities on this. Now, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. Mouth will just listen to someone else! He gets up in this House and makes charges and when somebody tries to reply they get this continual harassment.

The hon, gentleman is good at the McCarthyite stuff, making the charges and attacking people,but when somebody tries to reply he is up constantly on points of order and nonsense. MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: "'R. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: Do it within the rules of the House. Now, the hon. Lip just be quiet. Do it within the rules of the House. Now, Mr. Chairman, these documents the hon. gentleman quotes from were filed down in New York, the self-se,ving material between Mr. Shaheen and Mr. Takagi of Ataka were filed down in New York in a case down there. HR. NF.ARY: Right~ MR.

CROSBIE: Shaheen "'atural Resources against everybody under the sun, only this time it was AtakaAmerica, Ataka and Company, Atlantic Trading and Sumitoma Bank. And there was an affidavit filed and a great big - this big document here was filed with the affidavit. And these letters, these self-serving letters passing between those parties were filed down in New York in this suit against Sumitoma and Ataka, And the hon. gentleman, I suppose, sensed this somehow, went to New York and got a CO!JY• MR. NEARY: No. No I did not. MR. CROSBIE: No, you are darn right you did not, So, Mr.

Chairman, that is where this correspondence appears. And what this correspondence indicates is that apparently Mr. Shaheen was leading Ataka up the garden path in 1974, pretending that he had 5164

April 8, 1976, Tape 1920 , Page 4 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: some kind of concession in connection with the Julienne iron ore deposit, and corresponded with Ataka 1 and that Ataka at one time had a meeting with Premier Moores and said that they were interested in the Julienne iron ore deposits and the Premier told them - he can say himself what he told them - that we would be interested in receiving any kind of proposals, just a general interest. But that is all that 5165

April il, 1971'. }IT',. CROSJ1IF: Tape 1921 RH - 1 these documents indicate. But the hon. gentleman,seizing on these few squimpy little documents that were filed down in NfOlv York in a case tal~en by llr. Shaheen a)l;ainst Ataka to try to prove that they were partners in a series of jointed ventures,is then brought up in the House to try to give the lie to me that presumably that there was somebody we had in mind when the Jnlienne legislation ~1as passed ,which is just not true• He had no one in mind,and certainly not Ataka and certainly not John M. Shaheen.

There was no one in mind and there is still no one, }lr. Chairman, who has any commitment from the Newfoundland Government in connection with the Julienne iron ore deposits. As I said before,there are three or four groups who have indicated some general interest. There are several groups <•ho have asked for more information. There is not one group that has put in any kind of a proposal. The document that is attached here indicates that a proposal was never received ~y the government. The government had nothing to do with Ataka except for the Premier having a conversation with Mr.

Takagi in September of 1974 and again in September, 1975. It was never before the Cabinet. There was never an Order in Council. There was never anything before the Department of Mines and Energy. There 1vas never anything before the Department of Industrial Development. No proposal \vas ever received or considered by the government from Ataka or ~1r. S\Jahcen, other tha::1 a couple of casual conversations they had lvith the l'remier,and this foolish material back and forth lvetween Shaheen and .<\taka in 197'• where Mr.

Shaheen pretends that he has got some concession, and he is ~oing to get a concession on the iron ore deposits,and that he is going to get ftnancial help from the Newfoundland Government and the rest of it. Complete and utter fiction, fantasy! He may have hoped he was going to get that,but it never came before the government. Now that is the position on the hon. gentleman's great coup on Tuesday night,which he would not let me explain before eleven o'clock because obviously he wanted to get covered in the papers so that people would think there was something to it before it could be replied to.

That is ~-hat there is to that. 5166

1 April 8, 197n. l!R. CROSBIE: Tape 1921 RH - 2 Now; "'r. Speaker, an interesting coinci<lE'nCP - how these coincidences continue! - thei'e is an action datm in New York by one Greenspan and Blitzner against Crosbie and everybody, practically, in the Government of Newfoundland and so on instigated by Canadian Javelin behind the scenes. by Mr.Doyle,and suing the government down there in connection with the sale of shares of Canadian Javelin,which the government sold in 1974 and which was validated by the Newfoundland Supreme Court in a case here in Newfoundland.

There had been 84,000-odd shares of Canadian Javelin that were owned by the government of Newfoundland when- we came to power. l~e sold them in 1973. It is called a shareholder's derivative action- that is the pretence. By the way, the Government of Ne~Jfoundland and the Premier and myself and other Cabinet ministers have nOt~ received a declaration of immunity from the United States State Department, and we are out of the matter. The action still continues against the p,overnment and one or two others in certain connections,but not of any importance.

Now it is a tremendous coincidence, this is the Doyle group now, not the Shaheen group, that in that action of March 26 a notice was filed by Greenspan and Blitzner calling on the defendents and calling on the Provincial Refining to attend so they could take a deposition on any documents exchanged between the parties from 1972 to 1975 relating to the Julienne concession. Then the hon. gentleman from LaPoile(Mr. Neary) brings it up in the House on Monday.

There is not any connection that anyone knows of between this action by Newfoundland Refining, Provincial Refining, the New York court where these documents are filed,and the action taken by Greenspan and so on,except that there is some connecting link between those parties. There is a connecting link between those parties who is a determined enemy of the Province of Ne~lfoundland,or a determined enemy of this government,and who feeds one information he gets from the other and so on. There is a conduit pipe. There is someone in the conspiracy to link these two, to do as much damage to the Province as they can.

Then we had Semonian,who is the other supposed shareholder of 5167

April 8, l'l76. Ta11e 1921 RH- 3 HR . CROSBIE: Canadian Javelin taken in action in Massachusetts,who wrote the S.E.C. and attempted to interfere and destroy and make impossible a bond issue of the Newfoundland Government; a sinister conspiracy between the shareholders of Canadian Javelin who were incited and organized bv John C. Doyle,, 5168

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1922 Page 1 - mw Mr. Crosbie. and then this other action filed in New York. Well this ~overnment, Mr. Chairman, is not going to be deterred from doing what we think is best for this Province by any actions taken by Semonian, Greenspan, Blitzner, Doyle, Shaheen or whoever. And, Mr. Chairman, my reputation for truthfulness is unsullied. And if I stand in this House and I give my version of events, you can depend on it that it is true,unless I have forgotten some detail or made some mistake. No one can be perfect in his recollection of everyt~ing. MR. NEARY: Or you were not told. MR.

CROSBIE: Or I was not told or did not know, yes, right. Now I dealt with that point, and I do.not think it is a very serious matter that should disturb affairs. It is only relevant to the action being taken by Greenspan and Blitzner. Greenspan and Blitzner, if they could get evidence that the Newfoundland Government had already arranged with some other party to give them the Julienne deposit before the legislation was passed in June 1975, they might help their case. That is the only relevance that this whole issue has. It has no other relevance to anything.

So that these people 1 could go on with their case down in New York, it has no other relevance than that. Hr. Shaheen apparently expressed some interest with the Premier, with Ataka, that they w~re interested in the Julienne deposits. Other pepple during the last couple of years have indicated to the government that they might be interested in the Julienne iron ore if it became free, if there was no longer a concession on it. Since the legislation was passed certain parties have expressed an interest. In every case, Sir, they are told, "Fine. Put in proposals as to how you want to proceed~' MR.

NEARY: You never heard of Ataka until 1975. MR. CROSBIE: The han. gentleman knows all about Ataka. I heard of Ataka before 1975. 5169

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1922 Page 2 - mw HR. NEARY: That is not what you said the other night. MR. CROSBIE: I said that I had no knowledge that Ataka was so deeply involved and indebted to the refinery until July,1975. MR. NEARY: You got Hansard in front of you. MR. CROSBIE: And if I said anything different it was wrong And I have not got Hansard, and I am not going to bother checking it. I met Mr.

Takagi first in 1973 aboard a tanker at Come By Chance, and I met him again in April,l975 in Tokyo, and I knew the name Ataka, and I had heard of it; but never did I know they were so deeply and financially involved in the oil refinery, or that they were financing the crude oil until July, 1975. And that is the situation. Now in these actions down in the United States, Mr.

Speaker, just to complete the record: Semonian versus Crosbie, Hickman, Moores, Doody, the Province of Newfoundland, Labrador Linerboard, Canadian Javelin, International Forest Products, Kraft, Rand-Whitney and Mead , nearly all of those parties have now been excluded from the action, either by actions that they took themselves to get themselves excluded,or by action of the Department of State of the United States of Amercia, who have declared that we have immunity in connection with those actions, and properly so.

There are still some part of those actions to be dealt with down in Massachusetts in the United States but not much,so that the persons involved in these actions are no longer involved as persons. They will be struck out altogether if they ever get the ~rial which is unlikely, and that is true about the case in Massachusetts, Semonian, and the case in New York, Greenspan versus Crosbie and the others. And there is a declaration down there of immunity. So much for those actions.

The New York case was Greenspan and Blitzner against Crosbie, Moores, Doody, Burns Brothers, Burns Brothers and Timmins, the Government of Newfoundland, Richard Rowe and John Doe. So there is not much left of that case either. 5170

April 8, l-9 76 Tape no. 1922 Page l MR. RICKMAN: John Doe and RJ.chard Rowe are s·till there, MR. CROSBIE : It is part of t:he pattern by Mr. John C. Doyle to attempt to harass this government and to frighten the government into giving him back his former position of: eminence and power in this·Province,and that will never happen, never! And now, as I said the oth.er day, he is challenged in Canadian Javel:l.n Limited. Shareholders of Canadian Javelin Limited are trying to get him, in fact they appear to be successful, fhey have gotten Mr.

Doyle and his associates off the Board of Directors and a new group has taken over control of the Board of Directors. Mr. Doyle and his group are challenging that. It is a matter that has been in court in Quebec. The dissidents, the new group, the non-Doyle p;roU1J. have been successful to date, and it may well be that Canadian J~velin Limited will get a good Board of Directors that want to do a good job for that company, and we hope that is so, but that is a matter for the courts to decide between these dissident groups.

And as I said the other night~canadian Javelin is as welcome in this Province as any other person or company as long as they are good corporate citizens. So that is my answer to the han. gentleman effusions the other night. There is nothing to it, and nothing that I said incorrectly. 5171

~pr:U. B, 1976 Tape 1923 IB-1 >fl'. CP0S13TE: Now to give some :Information that has he en asked, 'lr. Speal<er. T nlreacly r:ave,in anf''· ' er to a petit ton yesterclay, the ans,?er to " <]Ue~tion asked by the hon. member for 1'1vil1 ingate (}lr. Smalhvoo<') as to hm• the costs h;we gone on np on the operational subs:! dies for PEA from 1971-1972 when they were $4.3 mHHon to $11.1 million :In the estimates th:is year. \Vith respect to the rates for power in l>ural Electrification areas ,they increased with the regular pov.,er rates. If the hydro rates increase, they increase in the same ratio.

There was a ouestion asked by the member for LaPoile (Mr. ~eary) about research jn LaPoile Uay. ~1'. SHALLI'OO : Would the hon. gentlel'lan yield the floor? I wanted to get a detaileC' explanation of the tremenclous :tncrease, an increase wldch i!' ac'mittecUy, unc1eniahly a tremendous increase. Last n:f.pht when he was spea}:inr: I askecl him ,and he said that of course it was causecl,and obviously this is so, mainly by the increase in the cost of oH. That ~mul d of course be especially in the o:l.l- fired generators, not the hydro. Then secondly in the cost of labour.

I was hoping that he would r;ive us a l:lttle detail on that. Or is it already contained in the printecl documents? 1'<1' • CJ'OS£IF : ~'r . Speaker, I have not got the figures for the previous years. But the hudget for the power distribution district in ~ewfoundland and Labrador for the year that vre are in nmv is a total of $16.9 million.

The salary and fringe benefits are $7.2 million; office expenses, $2.35 m:!Jl:ion; travelling expenses, $4.6 million; diesel fuel and lubricant, $3.5 mill ion; pm,~r purchase, $2.5 million, because they purchase pow~r from the hy~rn system; vehicle expense and rental, $55B,OOO; maintenance material, $1.6 million; other expenses,$427,000; management fee, that is paid to Ry~ro for operating and running it, $1.1 million. 'i"R. S~IJV~LVIOOD: Has that amount gone up~ r~. CROSBIF: One million one. rm. SHALL\voon: Is that an increase? 5172

AprH fl, 197~ Tape 1923 IB-2 '"' C:J?I')SJHF.: ! have not )!ot the comparison for last year, t'r. Speaker . That ~nkes a total of - ~"' · S~!ALLW'IC')'): ! (in not want to he a nuisance but "rould the min iste r tell me of the total sale r-1; power in Newfoundlan d and Lahrado r hy the r>EA how much of it is diesel . and how much of it is hyc!ro?

Anc! in purch~sfn?, hoth from the Newfoundland Hvdro does Pydro automatically char~e the "EA the automati c increases in the price or hydro-elec tric ity and ~ecnnc!lv, rlo they just pass on to the RF.A the rising cost of electricity proc!uced by increas:ln~ the cost of oil? In other words , are the Hydro ma~ing profit out of the P£A? tAT' • r•mss TF : ~o. ~r . Speaker. If ther e is an increase in the hydro rates t.hen the incre<.>se is also applied in PEA, so that the same :Increases apply there . The Pyt!rn is makin~ no money off the rEA.

The total operatin£ expense of the ~EA is $18 . 5 million and a collect revenue of $7, 092 ,000. That is ~y the prant-in-aid hns got to he Sll .l roill:lon this year . nut if the rates change in the hydro a rens • the rates ch11nce dso i n the (ifesel a re a. For compndsons for next year and so on,,•hen we ttet do"m to the cletaHed hcnds I wil 1 have "r. Garland in here . Re 5173

April 8, 1976 Tape 1924 PK - 1 HR. CROSBIE: should be able to give me that information. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the minister comment on this? This charge for administration made by Newfoundland Hydro against REA is a charge which,if it were not made and REA had to carry it itself, it would be just as big anyway, if not bigger. MR. CROSBIE: That is right. It is a charge for their own time 1 and the management people and so on who run it. MR .

SMALLWOOD: What I mean, what I am getting at if REA did that for themselves it would probably cost them more to do it then it now costs them by having it done by Ne~~foundland Hydro. MR. CROSBIE: That is right, Hr. Chairman. We have nothing resent on exploration in LaPoile Bay, but Noranda did geology, geochemistry, and geophysics searches in Northern LaPoile Bay in 1970 to 1972 but found nothing of signiftance, and my department has not heard of anything recently. There was work done there in 1936 also, 1937, 1965, 1967, 1968, but nothing has been found. MR. NEARY: Nothing? HR. CROSBIE: No.

I have information here on offshore gas permits and licences, but it is probably better to wait until we get down to the energy vote, and we can concentrate on that. On Edmund de Rothschild and the generating turbine called Straflaw. The officials of Newfoundland Hydro met twice with Mr. de Rothschild and his engineer. The system provides intere~ting features which could be benefical in the Province.

However, they were not in a position then to quote costs, and until they get to the point where they can quote costs Hydro is not in a position to proceed since they cannot make comparative studies without having the cost factors. MR. SMALLWOOD: What are they doing to get the costs? MR. CROSBIE: Well,when the de ~othschild Company has their cost figures and so on, they will send us the information. In the meantime 5174

April 8, 1976 Tape 1924 PK- 2 Mr. Crosbie: if I am in Europe I said I will stop in there and see this, whatever they got in Zurich. which is where they built their first one. Now the offices, Mr. Chairman, of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, the Montreal office of Gull Island Power is being closed and they are moving to St. John's by June. There will be no offices in Montreal : for Gull Island Power. The office of CFLCo is still in Montreal, but you know that office is going to be moved to Newfoundland. That may take a year or so yet.

It has to be phased in gradually, and there will always have to be some kind of an office in Montreal because of their close relations with Quebec-Hydro and the fact tha~ they have to be in touch •~ith them. But the head office of CFLCo will be moved to Newfoundland, That will not be tomorrow or next week or next month, but it will be within the next year or certainly within the next two years. I do not Y~ow, there are some other general points, Mr.

Chairman, but it may be better when we get down going through the detailed heads of these votes to answer them, bacause I understand the official Opposition wants to get off this general topic. So I will wait until we go down through before answering some of these other questions. HR. CHAIR~!AN: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~ffi. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. minister in going over his list of questions skipped over a few of the very urgent and important questions that I put to the minister.

And I would like to remind him of two questions, two very key questions that I put to the minister that he conveniently skipped over when he was replying to his list of questions. Number one, the salary being paid to Mr. Denis Groom: I asked the minister to provide the House with that information and the minister has deliberately or otherwise dropped that question from his list. At least he has not given the House the answer, and the House is entitled to the information. The people of Newfoundland are paying Mr. Groom's salary, and they are entitled to know how much that gentleman is receiving 5175

A['ril 8, 1976 Tape 1924 PK - 3 ~tr. Nearv: in pay. We want to know if we are paying him sufficiently well . Ts he being underpaid? Over worked? Or is he getting a half decent salar y? l>'e have the right, Sir, we as melllbers of the House, and the people of this Province have a right to this information. And the minister did not ans..,er that question, and I am putting the question to the minister again . The other key question, a very, very impor tant question that I put to the minister that he conveniently dropped from his list, 5176

April 8, 197fi Tape No. 1925 l~. NEATIY: was the question concerning revenue from Quebec · Hydro on the sale of power from the Upper Churchill. I ask m~ - 1 the minister if in the next few years we would receive sufficient revenue from 0uebec-Hydro through the sale of power to meet the government's obligation in paying the interest and the principle of around $180 million that was borrowed to kick BP.INCn out of Newfoundland.

Page 15, Sir, in the prospectus, that is the revised prospectus, the one that was· sent to New York recently in connection '' ith the $50 million bond issue, the revised one, T notice on page 15 it says that the Province expects to receive from Churchill falls Corporation, CFLCo,annual royalty in rental payments of approximately $5.6 million, in addition to any dividends which C':'T'LCo,after providing for certain of its obligations,it may declare in the future. nn the money that was borrowed to nationalize Churchill Falls Corporation, to kick out BRINCO, the interest on that money alone, Sir, is going to cost the people of this Province about $18 million or ~20 million a year.

Yet the revenue, the income from Quebec­ Hydro,according to the prospectus,is a ,paltry $5.6 million, in addition,it says,to any dividends after certain obligations.and I am told that there will be no dividends declared for the next five years anyway. So ,.,hat T. want to know from the minister, Sir, and the members of this House ~'ant to know,and the people of this Province will want to kno~,,,.,here is the extra $13 million to $15 million coming from to meet just the interest on this money that was borrowed to kick B"INCn out of Ne~rfoundland and to nationalize the Churchill Falls Corporation?

Where is the difference? Hhere is the money coming from? The minister will get up no doubt and tell me we are goinr, to borrow it,but you cannot keep going and borrowing and borrowing to pay your interest. There has to he sufficient revenue. That is right. There has to be. Well,.Hhere is the revenue coming from? Where is the. money coming from just to pay the interest? 5177

1-.pril 8, 1076 Tape No • 1925 NM- 2 }T-.• r.~nsBIF.: I am not providing it. '1'R. NEARY: No,that is for sure, Mr. Chairman, the minister is not providing it. All the minister's revenue is in trust for the future. ~~. CRnSBIE: I suppose you,· are right. ~fR. NEARY: I know I am right. But, :M.r. Chairman, I think this is a very, very important question. It is the most important question in my opinion to come up under the minister's estimates. The minister is going to get $5.6 million.

It cost in interest alone about ~18 million or $20 million to· borrow $180 million to nationalize Churchill ~alls and to kick BRINCO out of Newfoundland. TI1e difference in the interest alone, forget the principal, the difference is going to be $13 million, $14 million or Sl5 million that has to be found from general revenue or from Newfoundland Hydro or from the consumers of Newfoundland Light and Power Company. No~r will the minister rlease tell me, tell the House - yes I ~m going to sit down, I am not finished yet. The minister has had his say now I will have mine. ~"' h'. CARTJ':R: To a point of order, ¥r.

Chairman. ~1R. CHAIIDfAN: A point of order. }<!(. J. CARTER: }lr. Chairman, I realize that the han. member for LaPoile~or ~~herever it is, has forty-five minutes in which to say his piece and he can then sit down,and have another f6rty-£ive mj_nutes and so on. But Mr. Chairman, once and for all I 1muld like to have it settled; if a memher is repeating himself on and on and on again­ he has asked the same question over and over and over, has rephrased it at least five times in the last five minutes- I request Mr.

Chairman, that you direct him to sit down nnd allow someone else to speak, preferably the minister in this case, because there are other members in this committee who before the seventy-five hours have elapsed m{ght ~~ant to have a word to say and I think it is a breach of the rules and a breach of the privileges of this committee to have one or two members hogging the entire proceedings. I want a ruling on it. 5178

April 8, 197f. Tape No . 1925 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: ~fr. Cha1rm.an, to that point of order, as usual the hon. member for St. John's North (1-{r. J. Carter) is just clowning a_rc;mnd, Sir. That is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman. l'rn.~ CJl.AIJU<AN: Order, please! }fR. NEARY: I ask to be allowed to continue my remarks without being harassed hy the bon. member . uR. CHAIR!~: Order, please! It is out of order to he unduly repetitious and the C::hair therefore IJill take some action in this regard if tbe rules ar~ obviously broken. Up to the present time I 1~ould take the view that the hon. member for LaPoile ( 'r.

Neary) "as hrin)l:ing to mind certain questions that previously were asked but have not yet been ammered,and I think it is within the rule~ to remind the hon . minister of those question s. But having s·aid that I think that his remarks in that regard should go to the extent of making a reminder IJithout actually opening up the whole area again which has already been gone over on one occasion previously . The hon. member for LaPoile. 5179

April 8, 1976 Tape 1926 IB-1 '· 'R • NF.A'PY : '!'hank yon, Mr. rhairnan, that is n very good ruling anrl T hope, ~ir, thnt I '~ill not be further harassed ry the hon. member for ~t. John's North {}!r. J. r.arter) •'ho persists in ~oing it.

Sir, under page 15, as I :tndicated to the minister - and this is nevi evidence, l'r. rhai T11'an - CFLCo has contraeted to sell to Hy~ro- (luebec for an in!tial peric>d of forty years,with an option tc- rene~·· fe-r a further t'~enty-five yeetrs,vjrtnally all the pm•er generated at the project subject to t':1e right of the l'rovince to recall up to 300,000 k:llowatts of such power. Pydro-(luebec controls approxiMately thirty-four per cent of the ourstanding shares of CFLCo, the balance being controlled by the Province. So, ~·r.

Cha:lrmaD., this is probably the most important question of all _ to be put to the hon. minister, Sir, and I ,.,ould hope that when he r,ets back on his feet again the hen. minister will provi~e the r.ommit.tee vT:Ith the info!1'1at ion. Because it vmuld seem to me, Sir, that is the motive behinn increasing electricity rates to consumers tn this Province. That is the real reason, Sir. The minister is gotnp; in the back door to get thts money, to get some of the money from the consumers of Newfoundland Light and Power r.ompany. I think, Sir, that is wrong.

Now, !!r, rhai.rman, in connection w~th the minister's rebuttal, if you Jike,to the remarks that I ma~e the other night in connection ,-,•Hh certain statements 'Made in the Rouse by the hon. mintster on Tuesday night, that b my opinion were misleadtng,whether it was de] i,herate or innocent, Sir, the st:Jtements were misleading,and the minister this afternoon attempted to refute and to rebu~ some of t he statements that I had made qnoting,~r.

Chairman, directly from correspondence, from evidence that I had in front of me,to prove to the House that there han been proposals made to the government :t.n connection with the Julienne Lake property. The minister, Sir, when he started off in typical fashion - and I predicted last ~i~ht to my friends,and I predicted before the House C~pened this afternoon that the Minister of ~!ines and Energy 5180

1\pr:ll R, 1976 Tape 1926 IB-2 -~· ~!F.AIIY: would ~et up and he would start his usual little nP~e c~llinA game, start his typical character assassination, he would ~et personal with ~e. I ~r~rlicterl that, ~ir ~cl l was absolutely correct.

The minister was true to form. ~lhen you have the miru ,;ter on the r opes, ~>•hen you h;we checknate with the min.ister - not only that Minister; there are t1··o or t hree Ministers on the govern ment benches "'mo resol:t to the sm'le ta-ctics, to try to clestroy the creclihi 1 i ty of a memh~r of the Opposition who is making a verv vaJid point, they w~ll resort to character assassination, personalities and name callinr, . t-lell, ~ i r, the ll'ini~;ter n:lrl not let me do•m this afternoon. He wa,; true to fo~ . Uut T am r,o:fng to turn the other cheek, Sir . T am not goinA to start callin& the minister names.

I am j ust yoing to deal with the facts of this case. Fe said it was piffline 11nd nonsense. "!!hat hnppeued to ranaclian Javelin", he Rll:lcl, "w11s the fact th11t they hac! suc h an atro cious deal and they ••ere unnhle to develop the iron ore, that the r,ovcrnment had no choice but to tn'V.e b acl · the concessions . " l't- saicl that :It was ohvious . "Obviously", he sail', "noborly has r.otten a cleal s:lnce ." ~o the mini ster a1:~ues on that basis the y did not hl!ve anybody in mind . N o<.~ I 5181

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1927 Page 1 - mw _lir. Neary~ have no doubt, Mr. Chairman, at all, but the minister is telling the House the truth to the best of his knowledge. But I somehow or other, Sir, am getting the strange feeling that there were a lot of negotiations, a lot of things going on that the minister may not have known about, that the right hand of the government did not let his right hand know what it was doing.

And the minister definitely stated, Sir, a few moments ago, as he did the other night, and I gave the minister - I certainly did not try to trap the minister - I gave him every opportunity, and he would want to be awfully stunned, and the man had a legal mind, he would want to be awfully stunned 1£ he did not know what I was doing when I was getting the han. minister on the public record as making certain statements.

I wanted it recorded in Hansard, because I have some other documents that I am going to produce at a later date that is going to make the minister look awfully foolish in some of the statements that he made. But, Sir, in actual fact, Mr. Chairman, the government did have a proposal. Now the Premier sort of made an off-the-cuff remark the other night that the proposal was never delivered to the government, and the minister kind of confirmed that this afternoon by saying,or lly iroplying,anyway, that }\r. Shaheen had conned Ataka, the Japanese,into thinking that there was some kind of an agreement. And now, Mr.

Chairman, we are coming to the root of the whole matter. We are coming to the crux of the problem, becaus~the people of Newfoundland could not understand why Ataka, why the Japanese, who are such shrewd businessmen, why they should put $300 million in the oil refinery at Come By Chance unsecured? Well, Si~, now we know. Now we know, Mr. Chairman. They thought they were going to get a large chunk of Labrador. The thought they were going to get 5182

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1927 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. an opportunity to develop the Julienne Lake iron ore deposits in Labrador. That is what they thought they were going to get. And in thinking that they had met with the hon. the Premier in August 1 1974, up in Montreal,in Hotel Champlain. And I want the hon. Premier - I do not want him to divulge the discussions that took place- but I want the hon. Premier to tell the House who attended this meeting in Montreal. Was it Mr. Takagi of Ataka and Company? Mr. Takagi obviously says that he attended it. Who else attended that meeting?

I think the Premier has an obligation to the House to tell the members 1and probably some of his Cabinet ministers will be hearing it for the first time. wno attended this meeting? What was discussed? Was there any commitment? Did the Premier ask Ataka to make a submission? Because, Sir, on August 29, 1974, Ataka- that the government had not heard tell of until 197S,so they tell us-Xtaka on August 29, 1974 addressed a letter to Mr. Frank D. Moores, Premier of the Province of Newfoundland, St.

John's, Newfoundland, "Your Excellency Premier Moores; I would like to take the liberty of submitting to you a general proposal of the development of the iron ore resources of the Julienne Lake deposit as attached herewith." And I am going to table now, Sir, for the benefit of this hon. House, I am g·oing to table that proposal, and I ~-rill table the accompanying letter to the hon. the Premier,and I then would like to hear the Premier 1 s comments. The Minister of :lines and Energy says there was no prvposal before the government.

Well, Sir, I am going to table a proposal when I have finished reading that letter. }ffi. ROBERTS: A proposal? l1R. NEARY: A proposal. That is right. I am going to. And it is in greater detail than the Minister of Nines says :• Oh, we just had some general offers." Well, Sir, here in front of me 5183

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1927 3 - mw Hr. Neary . is a concrete proposal consisting of ten pages and a map, ~1r. Chairman, and an accowpanying letter saying, "I would like to take the liberty - telling the Premier - of submitting to you a general proposal for the development of iron ore resources of the Julienne Lake deposit as attached herewith." 5184

April 8, 1976 Tape 1928 PK - 1 Mr.

Neary: "Since this proposal is based on information gathered from the steel mills of Japan who have studied the Julienne Lake deposit from the general information which they have gathered from the reports of the Wabush Lake project,of Wabush Iron Company, and Carol Lake project of the Iro~ Ore Company of Canada whose operations are adjacent to Julienne Lake deposit, and because the geographical, physical and climatical conditions are similar, we feel that the layouts,equipments and the estimated costs are very realistic except for the fact that it must be understood that all estimates are subject for review and adjustments when an actual feasibility study has been completed.

I wou!d appreciate it vety much if you will kindly study the proposal and r.ive me your candid epinion and comments so that this proposal could be refined further." '' Thanking you for your study of our proposal I am yours truly, S. Takagi, Managing Director 1 Ataka and Company Limited of New York:' And the minister calls this - what is it he calls this?­ fiction! He says all this, all the requests that they have had so far, the proposals,he said,are fiction. Ah well, Mr.

Chairman, I am going to table one now that I do not consider to be fiction, and one that I am sure some of the minister's colleagues gave very, very careful consideration to. "The

schedule of this proposal has been based on information that has been previously published which are noted herein below; (1) the Julienne Lake deposit, a geological sununary report; (2) geology, metalology study of the Julienne Lake deposit; (3) estimated tonnage of the potential open pit mining; (4) bulk sample project; (5) report on the grinding and concentration test of Julienne Lake iron ore; (6) report of the grinding data;

(7) Humphrey spiral test; (8) pelleti2ing test at Julienne Lake iron ore; (9) pilot plant test report!' It is all fiction,the minister tells us] PREMIER MOORES: A pity I never got them. 5185

April 8, 19 76 Tape 1928 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? PREMIER MOORES: It is a pity I never got them. MR. NEARY: Is the hon. Premier saying that the hon. Premier did not receive this letter and this report? PRENIER MOORES: I will tell it all after. MR. NEARY: Well the Premier will have a chance,because I am going to table tt first for the information of all the members of this House. Well, Hr. Chairman, these are all authentic and legitimate documents that have been filed in the New York Supreme Court,verified, Sir, in an affidavit to the New York Court made by Shaheen Natural Resources, made by Mr .

Shaheen, an affiidavit made under oath confirming the fact that there was some connection between Ataka, Shaheen Enterprises and the Labrador project. Here it is here, Sir,

Section 5 of the affidavit, The minister has it. He waved it at me the other night in this hon. Pouse. It is public information, Sir, anybody can get these documents. I do not have to have these documents passed to me, All I have to do is call up somebody in New York and go down and pay their $5, the price is a little higher down there than it is here in our own registry office or in our own court, and you can get these documents, Mr. Chairman. And here is what Mr.

Shaheen said under oath,"fhe acquisition of the iron ore deposits at Julienne Lake 1 Labrador by a Canadian company to be owned 49 per cent by Ataka and 51 per cent by Shaheen Natural Resources, and to finance the plant and equipment necessary for the mining and pelletizing of ore in addition to financing the project 1 Ataka undertook to sell the pelletized ore.According to Ataka's studies, the overall project involved an investment of $566 million, Not only was this project a subject of written agreement;' - listen to this, Sir, a written agreement between Ataka and Shaheen Natural Resources , - "but it was also the subject of favourable negotiations between the Newfoundland Government and Ataka. due to litigation in Newfoundland." !he project has been delayed That is an affidavit, Sir, that has been presented by Shaheen Natural Resources and his companies to the New York Supreme Court under oath.

And the minister stands up today and just brushes the whole thing aside, takes a very weak defense, 5186

April 8, 1976 Tape 1928 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: attacks me personally , accuses the member for TwilH ,ngate (Mr. Smallwood ) as giving me the documents. Oh ~ Would not the minister love to know where I get my information. The ministers on the other side , they all think I got a spy in their departments I come up with so much information. 5187

April 8, 1976 Tape No. 1929 IDI- 1 l<ll. NEAP.Y: No trouble to get information, Sir, I can tell the hon. members that. ~'r. Chairman, I will be looking forward to hearing the Premier tell us about this meeting in Montreal. Here it is here again. Hr. John Shaheen is writing to Ataka - no, pardon me. Ataka is 11rit1ng Hr. Shaheen, just the reverse. "Dear Mr.

Shaheen; I am enclosing a general proposal together w·ith estimates, maps and mining operation flow sheets for the development of the Julienne Lake iron ore deposit which we discussed at Hotel Champlain on August 6th. with Premier Moores." That is September 1974. Did the minister not know about that when he answered my questions the other night? The minister told the House that he knew the Japanese were involved in Come By Chance because he had been down there with the Premier when the first tanker arrived, probably the Joseph R. flmal!vr_QE._d, or the Frank D.

Moores, or some other tanker, and had a crew of Japanese ~n. That is how the minister knew the Japanese were somehow or other linked to the oil refinery. "'R. S}!i\LLWOOD: 'Steve,' it could not be either one of them, MR. NEARY: Well,maybe it \vas not either one of them,but it was a tankP.r, that is what I said,or some other tanker. ""'-· CROSBIE: The VLCC. MR. NEARY: The VLCC was crewed by Japanese,so the minister told us.

That is how he kne~; the Japanese ~.; ere somehow or other connected with the refinery,and ~ -,hen I cross~ed the minister and put the question to him straight, put it to him Jack Blunt, and said, Sir, "Mr. Minister,"•hen did you first realize that Attaka ~·•as so deeply involved at the oil -refinery?" And the minister told me July 1 1Q75, July,l975. MD r.r..oSlliE: P.:i.ght c>n. '-''R.. NEARY: !tight on. But the hon. the Premier was very familiar •.;ith Ataka and had been since 1974 when the hon. the Premier 5188

April 8, 1976 Tape No. 1929 ~. NEARY: attended this meeting up in M~ntreal in Hotel Champlain. AN HON. ME1ffiER: 1-Jhat? Hhat? What? Nl'! - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes. I am goinR to table this piece of correspondence, Hr. Chairman, also,and I might say, Sir, that all the correspondence T r.ave is all marked 1not to he photostated! all confidential stuff. But once it goes to the Supreme Court of course it becomes public informati.on. Do lve have a page where I can table this document, Sir? MR. MORGAN: No respect for the House. t'T'. NEARY: TJho has no respect for the Rouse? MR.

MORGAN: Drinking coffee in the House, the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. NEARY: And, l~r. Chairman, I have to remind the hon. committee, Sir, t 11at on September 26th. : MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. MORGAN: MR. SIMMONS: ~1R. S l'MI''ONS : That is-not out of order. Disrespect! On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. ~<r. Chairman, the gentleman from LaPoile n•r. Neary) is unquestionably makfng his best speech of the session,and the Minister of Transportation insists on interrupting, harassing, making silly comments, I suggest Hr.

Chairman should draw him to order, read him again the rules of the House, he will eventually understand, and otherwise have him keep silent v7hile my friend frClm I.aPoile continues to make his brilliant speech, SOME HON. }ffiMBERS: Hear! Hear! ~~. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! ~m. MOR~~: Mr. Chairman, on that trivial point of order, I was referring to the fact that the hon. gentleman from Bu~geo - Bay d'Espoir (}<r. Simmons) was drinking coffee in the House of Assembly,which is out of order. '111. • S Il'lMON~ : And enjoying it. I was drinking coffee, Mr. Chairman. ~'11. CHAIJ1}1AN: Order, please! nrder, please!

The tradition in 5189

April 8 , lrt7 6 Tape No. 1929 Nl' - 3 "'Tl . CHAIT!l'AN: the House if that when an bon . member ·speaks, i f he does not actively object to comments from the other s i de,nnd if these comments are kept reasonably short,tha t the Chair does not have an obligation to intervene unless of course the hon. member does ask specifically for the protection. ' "R. N£.A1l.Y : ' 'r . Chairn:an, 1 also want to table a telegram dated Septe mber 26th., 1974. It i s addressed to Mr. Takagi nga in, of the Attaka Company Limited,sent by ~x .

Shaheen and t he. t elegram leaves no doubt, Sj,r, t hat the government was going along ~li th .t\ttak a 's pr:>posal and that the prospect was optimistic and that t he government would advance a subordinated loan for ~ 65 million. 1 would like to hear 5190

April 8, 1976 Tape 1930 IB-1 }'R. NEAP.Y: the Premier's explanation of that. I want to table this telegram, Sir. And it also ends up by sayfng, "The matter goes to the House of Assembly next session which will begin about October 26." And what does the minister say? The minister tole us all this tqas just foolish conversation between the Premier, foolish conversation between the Premier and Ataka,which is one of the biggest companies in the tJorld, was and still is, Sir, backed. by the Bank of Japan. $300 million is a Qrop in the bucket, Mr.

Chairman, and I w111 tell you I cannot understand, maybe I am not clever enough to understand, why the government did not come out on the side of the oil refinery and Shaheen Natural l'esources in this wl1ole matter of bankruptcy. The government,and somehow or other there are members on this side,who seem to be more concerned that Ataka had $300 million unsecured money into the oil refinery. I say to that, so what! That is their problem.

That js their touch luck. \~e should have come out on the side of the refinery and not t•mrry about whether Ataka was stupid,or whether they thought they Here going to get a large chunk of Labrador, or whether they were p:oing to get the concession to mine down there. He should have come out on the side of the refinery and ~'r. Shaheen. 'le did not do it. I agree with that lawyer from New York the other day who made a statement on the radio that we took the wrong position. Then this telegrani, Hr. Chairman, of November 18, 1975, ''Legislation w:lll be introduced week after next in.

Newfoundland, taking first step in plan." Not·7 how did they get that impression. It was only foolish nonsense that was supposed to be carrie~ on! Only just foolish conversations, coffee talk, poppycock,as the minister himself says. Yet somehow or other somebody had the impression that legislatiqn was going to be brought into this House the week after next. That was back in November, 1974, taking the first step in the plan, Hr. Chairnan.

I want to table this document. ~'hile I am at H, Sir, wh:Ue the page is here,! want to table the sheet out of the affidavit in case members are interested enough to take a look at it. So you can see, Mr. Chairman, that many, many, 5191

April 8, 1976 Tape 1930 IB-2 !:R . NEARY: many months before Ataka became almost a household word in Newfoundland, many, many months before that,the leader of the administration was familar with Ata}·a and had met with Ataka officials in }{ontreal. The Minister of }'ines and Energy may not have been aware of the discussions, neither was he present at the discussions. If the minister ~ras, he would have told us. But, Sir, it was not !'fr. Shaheen who was 1 ed up the country path, taken down a country la~e for a walk­ or Ataka,rather. The mj_nister said it was Ataka that was taken -up the country lane for a walk.

I would say :It was Hr. Shaheen and Ataka who ~·ere taken for a walk in the country because, Sir, when you are deal1ng with the Japanese they have a different philosophy on life than '~e co. They are used to dealing ~rith honourable men, and '~hen they are dealing with the Prime J>'inister of Canada or the Prime ~·inister of England or the Prime Minister of Newfoundlancl,as they call him, they would think, Sir, that he would be a man of integrity and a man of honesty. }IP.. 1!0~CAN: Are you saying he is not? }!Jl. N!AJ'Y: No, Sir, I am not. They would feel that.

The Japanese would feel thi.s, and they '"auld feel that the fact that the Prime Yin:lster of this Province took the trouble to go up to ~ontreal to meet with them would be sufficient evidence in their mind of good faith. So I say to the hon. House, and I am sure that the members must be really thinking seriously about this, I am not satisfied with the expJ anat:l.on. The whole thing was brusher:l over by the )!in is ter of Mines and Energy.

He can get up and attack me personally all he likes,and the M:l.nister w:l.thout Portfolio can attack me personally alJ he likes and can try to assassinate and undermine my credibility all he wants, I will merely turn the other cheek and I will keep on plowinR ahead, Sir, until I get the truth, 5192

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1931 Page 1 - mw Mt. Neary. until l get this whole matter brought out into the open. That is my job in this House as an elected representative of the people. Mr. Chairman, I told the House a few moments ago that I may be so stunned that I could not figure out before why Ataka got sucked in to putting $300 million in the oil refinery unsecured. I could not understand it. Every little ordinary person in Newfoundland are sitting back with a big question mark over their heads saying to theaselves, '~y God, they must be awfully stunned.

How did t~is happen?~ Well,I am sure the House can see now how it happened. And I do not think it is fair, Sir, to lay the blame on Mr. Shaheen's doorstep for conning Ataka, and I do not care what happens to Doyle and Shaheen in the courts outside of this House. I am interested in protecting the rights of the people of this Province. And the argument can be used that the Premier did not have to bring the matter before his Cabinet until he had a proposal. He could go off and carry on discussions.

But as a matter of courtesy, Sir, it was his duty and obligation to report his meeting with Ataka, and to bring the proposals before his colleagues in Cabinet. I would like for the Premier to tell us that he did that. PREMER MOORES : Well done, boy. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I am making a case. I am laying out a prima facie case, Sir, to try to get the answers. MR. MORGAN: You do not want the answesa. MR. NEARY: I want the answers. We got until eleven o'clock tonight. Ma. MORGAN: You are wasting time. MR. NEARY: I am not wasting time, Sir.

This is one of the most important matters ever to bome before this House .­ _MR. MORGAN: You do not want the answers. MR. NEA~Y: -because the Minister of Mines and Energy the other night, and I do not think he did it deliberately, Sir, but he misled this House, and he did it innocently I think. But now matter how he did it, he misled the House because the minister was probably not in possession 5193

April 8, 1976 Tape no. 1931 Page 2 - mw _!fr. Neary. of the facts, and that is a matter of public record. And so, Sir, when I take my seat I will look forward to the han. the Premier getting up and telling us who was led down the garden path. Was it Mr. Shaheen who was led down the path by the government? Did Mr. Shaheen lead Ataka down the garden path, as the Minister of Mines and Energy tells us? And he also goes on to say that we still have no one in mind. And yet they have this proposal which seems to me to be a pretty firm p~oposal, not just silly nonsense, and not just casual conversation.

It was a pretty concrete proposal the government had in front of them. And the Premier tells me from his seat that the proposal never reached his office. Well,if it did not, Sir, somebody is going to have an awful lot of explaining to do. And I guarantee you that the explaining will be done. I can tell the han. Premier that. He will get the explanation. He will get the full brunt of it. I want to know who was at that meeting in Montreal. In case the hon. Premier does not want to tell me I can drop him a hint that I have a list of all those whb attended the meeting, PREMIER MOORES: You are being childish. MR.

NEARY: childish. MR. MORGAN: t1R. NEARY: I am not being childish, Sir. I am not being Just wasting the time of the House. Yes, it is a kind of waste of time all right trying to find out about the wheeling and dealing that goes on behind the scenes. MR. MORGAN: You got all the information be knows. MR. NEARY: Okay. Well, I am going to make sure. I am putting the questions. I hope, Sir, I am making my case clear enough so that even the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) can understand it. So that when the Premier does get up to explain the situation that he will give me all the answers, and also give me Mr.

Groom's salary, and tell me how the government is going to finance the balance of the interest 5194

April 8, 19 76 Tape no. 1931 Page 3 - JnW Mr. Neary. on the payment on the money borrowed for the nationalization of the Churchill Falls Corporation. And now, Sir, I take my seat, and I look forward to the Premier providing :t:lle Bouse