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!Jece!":Cer ll, 1980 Tape No. 2840 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ~~- Speaker in the Chair. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! EL - 1 May I welcome on behalf of all ton. meriliers a dele<;iation in the G~llery today representing various councils and the Development Association from the district of Fortune-Hermita~e. SO~E RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Also I would like to refer hon. me~~ers to the point of order raised yesterday by the hon. the member for Stephenville (F. Stagg) related to comments mace during deba~e by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

I reserved my ruling at that time to review what was said and I ha·,,e now reviewed Hansard and quote the remarks that were usGd. "If '"e •~Vere outside the House I would say that he misrepresented,but I cannot use that expression in the House. If I were outside the House, I could say that he had distorted what was said.But in the House I cannot say that;therefore I will not say that." Both tenus have, of course, been ruled unparliamentary in the past. The infer­ ernce to be drawn from any expression depends on the cir­ cumstances, tone and context in which it is used.

In this case, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition acknowledged that he would not be permitted to use the expression com­ plained of in the House. He was plainly using a conditional, 'if~to convey an imputation which would, by his own admission, be out of order if done directly.~nd Beauc~esne,paragraph 326 (2), page 115 deals specifically with this type of sit­ uation, under the

section dealing with unparliamentary lang­ uag-e, and I quote, "Words may not be used h:n::othetically or con­ ditionally, if they are plainly intended to convey a direct imputation. Putting a hypothetical case," a~d I believe t~is is the important sentence. "puttinq a hypothetical case is not the ·.,;ay tc evade what would be i:1 i.tsel::: disorderly." 7 S C; c1

Deca~er 11, 1980 Tape ~o . 284 0 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): And therefore I rule that there is a valid point of order and request the han. the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw those remarks, The han. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I believe in some jurisdictions ~~e truth of the matter sometimes is sufficient proof, bU:"i:: I understand that in the House, regardless of whether something is true or not true, you have to withdraw eY,pressions which are considered to be, by the SFeaker,unparliamentary.

And so,therefore - well, for exw~Fle in the debate yesterday - MR. SPEA} :ER: The han. the Leader of t~e Opp- osition is debating the ruling now, I asked him to withdraw~~ rarerks. MR. STIRLING: No, I do not have any wish to debate the ruling. I was just giving it in the context, for example, yesterday.! withdraw any remarks that the Speaker indicates are unparliamentary. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR. STIRLING: And outside the House, I will have something further to say about it and I presume tnat will settle the subject. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the hen. Leader of the Opposition.

I understand a withdrawl has been made. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ~W... SPEAKER: The han. the Hinister of Finance. 78111

Decanber 11, 1980 Tape Nc. 2841 SD - l DR. J. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, I have a statement in regard to the strike at the Trades College. I apologize for my voice, it is a little bit hoarse. Mr. Speaker, ~ would like to take this opportunity to briefly inform the House of the status of negotiations with the striking support staff workers at the College of Trades and Technology, as well as to inform the House of government's position in this matter. The College of Trades support staff grcup is comprised of approximately 77 clerical and trac .es­ maintenance personnel.

Before the current collective agreement came into force,the majority of the employees belon~ed to either the General Service or the ~~aintenance and Operational Services groups. They have since been certified as a separate bargaining unit. The first collective agreement for this group ran from April lst, 1978 to March 31st, 1980, a two year contract, and negotiations for a revised agreement beqan in early March of this year. Very little progress was made during these preliminary ~eetings and bargaining reached a stand still as a result.

The union subsequently applied for the services of a Conciliation Board but the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) chose to c'l.eny this request and appointed a conciliation officer instead. Meetings between the t;..ro sides resumed in late October and, after arrivinq at another apparent stalemate,goverrnent requested the assistance of the conciliation officer involved.

A meeting was held late Wednesday, October 29th, at which time the officer e:,plored the possibility of further progress being made. !Jo fu::-ther progress was rnade,and the meetinq ended after government had placed its final position on the table incl~dinq a salary package identical to that accepted by the General Service group and certain other groups within the provincial ?ublic Service, F~

December 11, 1980 T.ape ~o . 2841 so - 2 D~ . J. COLLINS : that is, tl'le Me.'T.or.:.al l'niversity clerical staff , Public Libraries 3oard library support staff, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation , and Harmon Corporation , Stephenville , and ~~e St . John's Rousing Corporation . All these groups plus c~e General Service had accepted the proposal put fon.,ard by go\·er:unent and as all hon . member s l<no\-1 that aqr eemen c has since been signed with the General Service bargaining group .

At a subsequent ~eeting o: the :r.e!:lbership, government • s of ::icer \'las rejected ar.C: the union succeeded in securing a strike mandate . ~.notller series cf separate :neetings ,,,as held the followinq ~<:eel< bet.,1een both parties and the conciliation officer in an ef:ort to reach agreement . During these meetings we suc~eedeC: in reaching tenative agreen:er.t on all outstandin9 iterr.s, with the exception 7 R ·1?

December 11, 1980 Tape 2842 EC - l DR. COLLINS : of salaries. The t1•o main contentious matters,aside from salaries,were:

l) the provision of a Christmas break,and 2) the use of a recently instituted sick leave form, and these issues were resolved to the satisfaction of the union. T~e union commenced a legal strike on the morning of Friday, -November 7th.

Salaries is the only issue in dispute be~ween tne parties, and the details of ~he government's offer are as follows: 1) effective April 1, 1980, a general salary increase of 8 per cent or $1,000, whichever is greater, 2) effective January 1, 1981, a general increase of $100 on the salary scales; in addition, automatic step progression continues with employees not eligible for step progression receiving lump sum cash payments, 3) effective April 1, 1981, a general salary increase of 8 per cent and 4) effective January 1, 1982, a general increase of SlOO on the salary scales; in addition, automatic step progression continues witn employees not eligible for step progression receivi~g lump sum cash payments.

Through t~e combination of the general salary increases a~d step increments, the average increase in annual salarie!: for tl-1e employees in this group over the two year agreement will be appro:dmately 22.4 per cent. In addition, over the term of the agreement, employees on average will receive approximately $220 in cash payments. The extra dollars ~o be received by employees over the life of the agreeme~t as a result of the present offer averages $3,623.

That is the average amount of money that an e!nployee will recei.ve, or the average of the amount that will be recei"ed by employees over the life of the t'N"C year agreeMent is $3,623. Government's cf::er is structured so as to provide proportionately larger ircreases to the 7 8-: i ~

--- - ---- ~ ~ --- Oece~er :1 , 1980 Tape 2842 EC - 2 DR . COLLINS: lower paid workers. Fo r example, over two years , the lowest paid worke~ will receive a total salary ~crease resulting fro~ both che general inc reases as ~•ell as step rnc ·,ements of 29 .5 per cent . Putting all the increas ~s, all the i~em s in the salary package toget~er, the lowest paid worker over the two year pericc o: the agreement will receive ~ salary increase of 29 .5 per cent . In public sec~or collective bargai ning, govenL~en~ has a responsibility to mainta~r. equi ty a~ong di ffer ent bargaining group s.

The College of Trad es suppo rt s-caff gro up consists ~ainly of workers who were previously part of the General Service a. "'a ~laintenance and Operational Services bargaining :..mi ~s . Government is u11ab le to ra-cionalize large r increase s to employees in the College of T.!: ace s unit than those already agree<i to or being voted on by similar catego ries of employees in other bargai:1ing units . l·ie have been successful in reaching agreement with the union 7 g 'l L

•• !• December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2843 RA - 1 MR. COLLI~S: on all other issues,including several local issues of significence to this group 1 includinq the provision of a Christ:mas break. No further progress was made as a result of yesterdsy's meetings with the conciliation officers. Gove.::-nment 's position fran the onset has been to provide what we feel is a reasonable and just salary i11crease ,taking into account crcvernment' s ability to pay and our responsibilities, to all public sector employees. If it is not anticipated that any further meetings will be held on this matter in the near future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms}: The hon. member for Terra Nova. SOME HON. 11EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it disappoints us on this side of the House that the government negotiat- ing effort was not successful in bringing this strike to a settlement. The first question,Mr.

S~eaker, that one has to raise in relation to the .qovernner:t''3 negotiations with people in the public service is the length of time it ~a~es to negotiat~.For example, in the first part of the minister's statement, the minister indicated that the contract they are now referring to expired on the 31st !'!arch, 198C,That means that these people now are nine months without a con­ tract- nine months,Mr. Speaker- and one wonders what the reasons are for these long delays.

Is it related to in­ sufficient numbers of conciliators or mediators or insuficient numbers of oem?le related to this overall collective bargain­ ing?:::bes the govenment have enough people? And one wonders how far we are behind with other groups, for example, the teachers, and I know their contract ended as of the end of August, I believe,of this year. So one wonders how far we are behind in these negotiations and I think this is something that needs a looking in to to find out why i~ is we are so long, because I 7 8 ·: .:;

'rMF "' December 11, 1980 'C'ape No. 2843 RA - 2 HR. T. LUSH: think the lenqthiness, the un- due length of time it takes to get t~ese negotiations settled with respect to collecti ve bargaining is in itsel= frustrating and I am sure brings a lot of anxiety to the workers concerned when they reali~e that they are 7 s •i r:: ~

December 11 , 1980 Tape No. 2844 DW - 1 :-!R. T . LOSE : •,.;or-kL'1g foJ:" so long without tneir contract bei~g negotiated for t~e particular year in tV"hich they are working . So , ~r . Speaker, t3at is <;omething I would thi_nk t-hat the governm~nt should aC:cress themselves to an5 to see and to ensure that certai~ly we have enou g h people , skilled people, the ~x?ert~se that is required in these collective bar ­ caining negotiations .

Of course, in order to co~ent '.l.pon the proposals . the last propc .sals -and the series ~ f proposals made by the government , one 'las ::o be:: .::arniliar Hith all the detail s of tne collective bar - aining!" . ')ne has to be fa.'lliliar v.rith the salary scale , the salar ie_s that people in the ba:::qaini~g unit are now getting . or.e has to be farnilia .r with the ste? increment-s to app~ec i ate •11ha t it is the governrnen t offered these particular people . But to talk ir. terms of ;:>ercentages , ~1 r .

Speaker, d~es noc mean ver:y :nuc::t. <or exam p le, the fi~st offe~ of April lst . , 1~8 0 says, ' A qeneral salary increase of 8 per cent ~r Sl , 000 , lvhichever is greater' .

So to be able ::o appreciate the meaning and the significance of ~~at particular offer, as I have said be£ore , one has =o know the salaries in question . aecause if we are tal~~'1g about, Let us say for ex~~ple, an averaqe o f SlO,OOO , t•hat ,,,e are talking about, of course, is just a S200 increase above what they would ger: over a -:;er ­ centage increase . ."' . .nd then aga::.n, if \,•e are going dolv"n lo,.,er tha:1 that, a oeroe~tage increase does not mat:ter ve~y much . If a person is making $6 , 000 then 8 ;>er cent does :1ot mean •;e~y much which was their third offer . 7 6 ·1 7

December 11, 1980 Tape No . 2844 D~i - 2 MR. T. LUSH: So, Mr. Speaker, in order to be able to comment, to give an intelligent comment on this, there would have to be a lot more details provided. SuffiCe i.+-. to say that it is very difficult to understand the position of a government that,one,supports the fact that medical doc­ tors in this Province should gain parity with their counter­ parts on the mainland of Canado when, as I understand it, this group here is merely looking for parity with workers in their own Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. T. LUSH: And, as I said, Mr.

Speaker, when you are talking about a percentage increase to people below $10,000 you are really not talking about very much. and I understand that that is the hub of the matter. It is the percentage increase that is not satisfying these ?articular employees. But, Mr. Speaker, what we are interested in on this side is to see that there is an early settlement to these negotiations so that these people can get back to work, that there is a fair and reasonable settlement. And, we believe, that the government have a responsibility 8Hl ~

t· December 11, 1980 Tape No, 2845 EL - 1 MR.LUSH : to see that these workers are treated fairly, that they are treated justly in relationship with people engaged in similar Nork in the Province 1and we understand that they are not getting that. And that is the problem, Mr. Speaker, that they are not getting parity ~-rith workers in the Province ·. workErs in private industry, workers in other sectors doing the same type of work. Mr. Soe'" ~-pr. sm.-:E HON . .Members; MR. SPLAKER (Si~~s): MR. LUSH: Oh, oh! Order, please! So in conclusion, let us say, Mr.

Speaker, that we are disappointed that this strike is allowed to drag on and we would like to see the government come through and get both sides back to the table. Let us get a fair ·and just settlement for these workers. SOME HON. ~...EMBERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: I am sure hon.members would like to join me in welcoming to the Galleries today seven library prefects from Grade VI, VII and VIII from Newtown, Mount Pearl, St. Peters School 1accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Pat Walsh. We hope they enjoy their visit. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: ~1r. S:r;>eaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. O'l'TENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the appointment of Miss Margaret M. Cameron as Ass- ociate Deputy Minister of Justice, effective January 2, 1981. Miss Cameron is a native of Carbonear, the daughter of the late Duncan and ~1rs.Isabellecaneron of Carbonear. She received her early education there and received here Bachelor of Arts from Memorial University of Newfoundland in 1967 and here LL.B. from Dalhousie Law School 1971.

Miss Cameron was acmitted to the Bar of Newfoundland in 1972, entered private prorctice with the firm of Thoms, Fowler, Rowe and Barry. 7 ~; ~ 0

. ! ... December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2845 EL - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: She left her private practice to join the department in June, 1975 and has been with the department since that time. During her service with the Department of Justice she has been involved with advising the Departments of Mines and Energy, Petroleum Directorate and other departments of government. Miss Cameron's role, as Associate Deputy Minister of Justice.will be mainly to supervise the civil division of the department. That di­ vision provides a variety of legal services to government.

As members are aware, the Department of Justice has become increasingly involved in a number of matters of great concern to the Province with respect to the Constitution, the Law of the Sea and resource matters in general. ! am confident that the appoint­ ment of Miss Cameron to replace Mr. Keith Mercer,who is leaving government for private practice,will serve to ensure continuity and the high quality of advice offered by the civil division to government. SOMK HON. MEMBERS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Bank. MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Grand Mr.

Speaker, I guess in all modesty I should respond to the Minister of Justice's announcement right now. For once, the minister and mvself are in complete agreement. Miss Cameron, of course, not only articled to the law firm of Thorns. Fowler, Ro1.re and Barry but was personally articled to myself. MR. ROBERTS: She overcame that handicap, did she? SOME hON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. THDr-1S: In other words, ~·1r. Speaker, I taught her all she knows. 7G?n ~

!.' December 11 , 1980 Tape No . 2846 ow - 1 MR . Hhi\"O:X:K : ropes then . I gu .arantee you she knows the SOME HON. MEMBERS; Oh , oh! MR. S. NEARY: There is nothing she cannot cope with if she articled with you. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! :·1R . L . TrtO~~s : :.~r . Speaker, in case anybod y on either side of the Rouse might consider t::.is a token a~pointment within the Department of Justice,I can cer ­ tainly vouch for,and I think most lawyer~ in this city who have bad any dealings with Miss Camer on in the prac­ tice of law can vouch for her competency .

Ti'.ere is no doubt about it but she deserves this particular promo ­ tion and appointment within the Department of Justice. She is very capable and a very competent lawyer. Mr . Speaker, I just hope that in line wit!'l. most people's thinkin g that there should be equal pay for equal wcrk , that ~is s Cameron \-'ill be receiving a ju st recompense for her po siti on lvithin the Department o: Justice as 1\olr.. '1"lrcer ma de and should receive gay t:hat is commensurat~ with ~u . Mercer's salary . Mr .

Speaker, I am very pleased to su;>9ort the minister's announcement this afternoon and the appoint~ent of Miss Cameron,and I wish her well in her new position . Thank you , very :nuch . SOME BON . MK~BEP.S: Hear, hear! I>!R . SPEA?<ER. : The hen . Minister o Ju stice . n121

DeceffiQer ll, 1980 .ape No. 28-1 6 OW - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Ju st to clarify for the non . gentleman, within the Department of Justice there is no discrimination.Male or female, in all categories~e is 'equal pay for e,.ual work board. anplicable right acro ·ss the MR. SPEAI<ER (Simms): Any further statements? O~L QUESTIO NS ~~ - SPRAKER (Simms): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. L. STIRLING: Thank.you, Mr. Speaker. Realizing that you have to be very careful and that the Minister of Mines and Energy IMr.

Barry) is not in the House, although if he dashes he can get into his seat in time to answer the question, he yes­ terday suggested that I quote from Hansard, su .ggested in his daring manner that I quote from Hansard and in quoting from Hansard he savs,'Mr. Barry', identified in Hansard, 'the problem is Fith the wet concentrate freezing and this is the reason why they cannot just continue to stock­ pile and have the Wabush Mines continue operation. Now we kept going for two days and the company has now decided to stockpile and continue the operation'.

And I would ask the hon . minister what has changed in two days? Is it now not wet or is it now not freezing in Wabush? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~Lq . L. B& ~ Y: Mr. Speaker, I know the Leader of the Opposition (~~r. Stirling) is going to be disappointed to hear this, what the situation now is, that the contractors are making such good time on the line that it looks like the line will be repaired on the 16th., which is the day after the shut-down was supposed to cornmence,so they have decided there 782? -·

December ll, 1980 Tape 0lo. 2846 D'rl - :i C1R. L. BARRY: is no need for the shut-down at all. SOME HOC\!. M.EMBEP.S: Hear, hear! I ,-. ,-. - I ~~ ~

Dacember 11, 1980 Tape No. 2847 SD - 1 l>!R. STIRLING: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sirmns): Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: The last time that on this side of the House we tried to get across to the other side of the House, to the minister, that there was a serious problem when there was going t.o be a layoff, they said they were corn- pletely in touch and then some one week later there was a complete shut-down.

Now let me ask the minister if he is aware that there has been some information provided by the union in Wabush which suggests a very serious situation in that at the sarne time that there has been a slow down in iron ·::>re production and markets as it relates to 'the Wabush area, the union apparently has been advised that there has been a considerable increase in the imports of iron ore into Canada. Is the minister aware of that and has he investigated it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is trying desperately to find an issue, any issue, and he has been since he was elected as leader, ·to provoke mischief and disorder in Labrador and other parts of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame, shame! MR . STIRLING: A paint of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, he has lost the issue - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised. ~.R. BARRY: Oh , a t'Oint of order . Tou chin g , Mr. Speaker, touching. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOM!:: HON . ME"!BERS : Oh, oh! }ffi . SPEAi<ER: Order, please! r ? ~

December 11, 1980 Tape Nc. 2847 SD- 2 MR. STIRLING: ~!r. Speaker, by whatever set of rules I had to withdraw the remark that I was supposed to have made yesterday, the same remark which the minister now makes that I have been trying to create mischief throughout the Province and look for an issue, any issue, certainly whatever connotation is in that should be the same set of rules applying to both sides of the House, and if the Speaker ·would like to take it under advisement I would be quite prepared to have the Speaker look at that - SO.tJI...E HON. ~1EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Si~~

s) MR. STIRI,.ING: Oh, oh! Order, please! - and ask the minister if instead of the abuse that he normally gets on with, would he just simply answer the question - he has a right to ei~her answer it or not answer it - but answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I perhaps should make it clear to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that the point of order he refers to earlier had nothing to do with this type of situation. The point of order referrec to ear~ier was using hypothetical words. I understand the Leader of the Opposition's point of order here is that the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) has used unparliamentary :angua•;e. MR. ROBERTS: That is only part of it. Imputing motives - you are not allowed to do that. MR. SPEAKER: Well, I do apologize then because I did not hear that point made during the Leader of the Opposi­ tion's point of order. I will take it under advisement and ask the Minister of Hines and Energy to continue. MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: ME. BARRY: Could I finish my answer, Mr. Speaker? The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, as I said, obviously is flailing around desperately to try and find another issue. 7 r~. r: ,.... 1 rJ /.. ~

December 11, 1980 Tape 2848 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: And he refers to, I guess, the comme~t contained in a telex from the president of the Wabush Mines union,which refers to iron ore imports into Canada having increased three-fold since 1977. Now, I guess the first point that should be made, Mr. Speaker, is that it is not this provincial goverr~ent which controls iron ore imports, but the Liberal friends of the Leader of the Opposition opposite now in the gover~~ent in Ottawa. That is point number one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. BARRY: Point number two, Hr. Speaker - '1R. 3PEAKER (Simms): Order, please! ~-lR.

BARRY: Point number two is that this issue c~~e up and was thrashed out thoroughly at the time of th; shut-downs lqstSwmmer, and the point is, Mr.

Speaker, that there are different grades and types of iron ore, and you find t:1.at in fact there are swaps which go on across the Canadian/U.S. border, that in some cases the iron ore of the f.lissabi Ra:.1ge in the U.S. is better for the blast furnaces in some of the steel mills in Canada than is local iron ore and vice versa in the U.S.; it is better for the U.S. to import Canadian ore than to use some of their own because of the type of steel mill operation and because of the efficiency and the quality which might be obtained by using a particular type of iron ore. So, Mr.

Speaker, number one is that the Leader of the Opposition should direct his question to the federal government, and number two is that this matter has been looked into. Our people in the Department of Mines and Energy had earlier requested the federal government last Slli~er to look into this very 90int, and the information that has gotten back and which I have not seen refuted is that these are swaps of different types of iron ore. 7~2~ ..:

December 11, 1980 Tape 2848 EC - 2 SOME RON. MDIBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPE&~ER (Simms) : The hon. the member fer 'tlindsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is fo::- the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) as well. As the minister knows, we passed, in principle anyway, a piece of legislation through this House a few days ago, the Upper Churchill bill, and that the minimum benefits to this Province, the very minimum unaer that legislation, would be recall rights. There are all sorts of benefits, but the recall rights would be the minimum benefit.

And in the first instance, that recall was set at 800 megawatts, to justify the recall. >vould the minister indicate now to the House, assuming that minim~~ benefit accrues to the Province - and the Premier has indicated that the legislation itself will be proclaimed in less than two years. But since it takes five years to complete a cable crossing to bring the power into the Island, what is the minister proposing with regard to transmission of the Upper Church.:.ll pov;er to the Island? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. BARRY: The han. the Hinister of Mines ~x.

Speaker, agai~ · I thought I had the opportunity of responding to this point after the Leader of the Opposi~ion called his press conference, I think it was last Friday, to announce,'Eureka~' he has had an idea that the Province should start building a transmission line: SOME HON . ME!1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: I had the opportunity of pointing out in the media at that time, ~lr. Speaker ~..R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - that the ~eader of the Opposition seemed to be overl ooki ng a minor point , >vhich 1vas the 7 s 2 7

Dec~~ber 11, 1980 Tape 284 8 EC - 3 ~IR . BARRY : $1.6 billion which that line wo·.lld COSt and the fact t.'tat anybody HhO lent money , put: up money for the financing of that line, \vould appreciate knowing where the electricity was coming ==om that \vOuld 90 over the line - . m~ . ;.!ORGAi-1 : SO~~ HON. MEMBERS : MR . SAR-~Y : And who would use it . Oh, oh! so that it could be sho~~ how t.hat a>11ount would be repaid . Now , l1r . Spea~er, there ar e three possibilities of where ele ctric ity could come from over that transmission line . 762~

Decerr.be::- ; , "'-"'-r !'lR. Bl>_RRY: 1980 Tape No. 2849 EL - 1 The Upper Churchill recall we hope and expect we will have for use within this Province. There is also , however, the potential of Muskrat Falls, the potential of Gull Island ~nd we want to see the Gull Island site started in this coming year and we have ongoing dis- cussions going with the Federal Government,as the Leader of the Opposition and the member for Windsor-Buchans (G.Flight) know, and we hope to see a start on Gull .Island.

And in the expectation that once our right to clearly - a clear right is established to obtain the power, the less expensive power from the Upper Churchill,we will recall that ~nd Gull Island will be a-"ailable for export again once the Federal Govern- ment permits us to exercise our constitutional right of trar> .s- ~itting electricity across Quebec. So, Mr. Speaker,again part of this, I guess, question also relates to what I believe is a misinterpretation that has appeared in the media ,that there has been a six month delay in a decision with respect to the Lower Churchill. There has been no six month delay.

The time

schedule we have been operating towards all along has been to have a decision as to our next generating source by late Spring, early Summer of 1981. That is still on schedule, Mr. Speaker, discussions . ~Ti th the Federal Govern- ment are ongoing and we expect to have a further state~ent to make on it before too long. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has indicated in the House on a few occasions ,and the Premier, that the cost of - the most expensive electricity being gen- erated in this Province right is Holyrood, aro~nd 40 mils per killowatt hour, in the minister's 8Wn acknowledgement. 76?0

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2849 EL - 2 lu'< HON. .!-'.EMBER : With subsidized oil. MR. FLIGHT: That is with subsidized - that is ~ight, that point should be made, with subsidized oil,around $14.00 a barrel Would the minister indicate what upper Churchill, '"hat the power from Upper Churchill, d:livered to this Provi~ce today, if it could be delivered today, based on today's ~illowatt hour rates would cost delivered to the Island. - Up!Jer Churchill pm.;er deli'rered to Newfoundland; ~1R. SPEP..KER (Simms) : and Energy. ~.ffi. BARRY: The han. the Minister of Mines Yes, Mr.

Speaker, you ca~ count on approximately 45 mils for the cost of the transmission line, of paying off the $1.6 billion transmission line, and then you add on three and a half to four mils on to that so you have less than 50 mil power accessible from the Up?er Churchill. MR. FLIGHT: ~1R. SPEAKER: member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the han.

Would the Minister indicate - he just ad:nitted that Churchill pm•:er c1elivered to the Island by Newfoundland Hydro will be 50 mil power-would he indicate what that would mean to the consumers? ~'~hen Hydro adds its profit and the Newfoundland Light and Power_adds its profit, what would the consumer be expecting to pay for Upper Churchill power based on todays new rates? MR. SPEAKER: Ener<;y. MR. BARRY: The han. the Minister of Mines and Mr. Speaker, is the member basi~g that on a hypothetical - that somehow 7 ~-~ ':1 n

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2850 RA - 1 MR. L. 3ARRY: you wave a magic wand and get that power here right now, right now today? MR. G. FLIGHT: will it cost? ~1R. L. BARRY: Based on today's rates,what tell us that. Mr. Speaker, I would have to get the exact figures for the hon. member.

All I can tell him is that without any shadow of a doubt whatsoever it is going to be the cheapest power available not only to this Province but to any part of North &~erica, and I would submit to any part of the world;that the four mil power from the Upper Churchill delivered to the Island with a$1.6 billion transmission line is going to be,as far as this Province is concerned,like having money in the bank.

And I can get the exact mil rates so there would have to be some calculations done.! can say that once tLat power is accessed, the transmission line built,and we have a recall of the Spper Churchill power,that you will then see a stable mil rate for probably the next fifteen or twenty years in this Province. M:R. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) l'<IR. NEARY: A final suoplemementary. 'l'he hon. member for LaPoile. I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member yields?The hon. member for Windsor­ Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary.

Would the minister indicate whether or not he supports the President of Newfoundland Hydro, Mr. Vic Young and his announcement this morning that by 1987 electrical cost in this Province will double in cost to the consumer; He was saying the cost to the consumer will double by 1987. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. 7 6 3 .,

Oe.::er.>.ber ll, 1980 Tape No . 2850 AA - 2 ·:-IR . L. BARRY: Let me see nmo~, t-1r . Speaker. If 1-1e use the goi ng inflation rate in Canaca, agaJ.n in­ !licted upon us by friends of the rrerbers opposite who are no~- · in government L"l Ottato~a, I think the inflati on rate is at least 10 per ce~t a y~ar . And again : think the member for the Strait of Selle Isle will confi~ our litt:e rule ~f tbumb - he is ~ot listeni ng - the lit~le rule of thumb, that 10 per cent inflation a year it is 7.2 years ehat a cost would double. So if you are talk!r.g at the 10 per cent inflation rate, Mr.

Speaker, you are tal~~ng about that, about double, and I think tha.:. everybody ex­ pects and lee us hope that tte cost of living can be kept to nc more th~, 7 per cent. SO!offi HON . MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (S~.s ) : :.m. S. NEARY: Oh, oh! The hon. me~~er :or LaPcile . !·lr . Speaker, the question I am about to ask I could ask , I supp ose, of any one of four ministers and I am try ing to figure out which one was not on eelevision in the lase day or so. SO~iE RON. :-!.E~UiERS : Hear, hear ! MR. S. NEARY: We raise t!l .e issues and ask the quest~ons and ~~e ministers get the in ter views .

Now, I am going to ask the ttinister of !•lines and .Snergy, because he is the one that mad e the statement - and it is :1ce something that I am quoting 7h~ ? ~

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2851 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: because I saw the hon. gentleman's picture on television, heard his own '-'Dice, saw his own lips ~eve and could not believe, Mr. Speaker, the incredible, silly, childish statement that the hon. gentleman was making in connection with the federal government's legislation presently being debated in the Parliament of Canada in connection with the federal government taking control of certain federal lands. The minister, Mr. Speaker, said he was goi~g to ignore it, ignore the law of the Parliament of Canada. \'las the minister serious? Is he beaten to the ground?

Is he now going to stand up and blaspheme, wring his hands and blaspheme the Prime Minister? Could the minister tell us if he was serious about this incredible statement ? I could not believe what I was hearing The hon. gentleman is going to ignore a law that is now being passed in the Parliament of Canada in connection with federal l~nc. MR. SPE&~ER (Simms) : MR. L. BARRY: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, I am amazed, you know, that hon. members opposite still do not seem to appreciate there has been federal legislation in place for years and years and years, and the hon.:r.embers had their way, we would bow to Uncle Ottawa and, I suppose, we would repeal the oil and gas legislation and regulations that we have in place and we would say,'Yes, Uncle Ottawa, go do your thing. You own it, you have jurisdiction, it is all yours! Mr.

Speaker, this legislation that is introduced in the House of Commons which is to be called 'The Canadian Oil and Gas Act,' does nothing except try and update the antiquated oil and gas regulations which the federal government has had in place for a number of years and, Hr. Speaker, coincidentally they have selected the prime features of the oil and qas regulations which we implemented three years ago. SOME HON. '1EMBERS: near, hear. MR. L. BARRY: And if I c~~ld just briefly refer to 7 8 J 1 ~

December 11, 1980 Tape No . 2851 SD - 2 ~ - L . B.~qy : a couple of t hose , they have implemented our s liding · scale royal t:y 1 they have i.mple.lnentsd the right o-= the Crmvn to take a royal t:, in kind, they have impleme .nted the re'=iuirement that allows the Crown t:o order the drilling of a •·7ell cr l·lells foll o•,,rin C" a discover' - MR. HODDER: A point of ocC.er, ){r . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Simtnsl: Order, pl1=ass! .z;, point of ot:der has bee n raised by the hon . member =or Port ~u Port. YlR . J . HODDER: Y'<!S I ~..r . Speaker .

I have been listeni:HJ t o that hon . minister today abuse Question Period. Look, :•lr . Speake::, my unde _rstanding - SO~E nON . M&~BERS : Oh, ob . :1R . SPEAKER : Order, please! MR . J . HODDER: 1-lr . Speaker , Seauchesne, page 131 'Ans~orers to questions shou l d be a ~rie£ as ?Ossible - SOME cON . H.EMBERS: Oh 1 ob . •• R . S PEA.I(ER : Order, please! MR. J . HODDER: should deal .,,i th the matter raised and should not provoke debate', and the han. t~e minist e r has broken~veryone of those rales , Mr . Speake~ . He has been doing it constantly. An'd my poin.t of order, Mr . Speake~, is that - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh 1 oh ! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR . HODDER: - I would ask that ~~e minister try and u se what little bit if intelligence he has to try and frame his an swe rs instead of abusing the Question Period . .. SOHE EON. 1-l.EMBERS: Oh, oh . 78?tu .. ~

,. December 11, 1980 MR • MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape 2852 EC - 1 Mr. Speaker, to the point of o=der. Order, please! To the point of order, the hen. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Sir, that is no point of order. The hon. the minister is addressing himself to the question a!ld I would suggest that hon. meffibers opposite when they do not l~ke the ans\-Ters, should not have recou=se to the rules in an attempt to avoid the answers to the questions that they have asked. MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order, I am glad the point of order has been raised, because I ~elieve it has been raised on several occasions in the past couple of weeks and it will give me an opportunity to give some comments and perhaps make a ruling. Beauchesne's quote, which was quoted by the hon. the member f~r Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder), is certainly a very valid quote. 'Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.' But also in Erskine May, Page 334, it goes on to say 'and answers sho.uld be confined to the points contained in the question with such explanation only as renders the answer intelligible although a certain latitude is permitted to ministers of the Crown whenever they find it necessary to extend their remarks with the view of clearly explaining the matter in question.' Now, the question of latitude is a question of judgement and an extremely difficult rna~ter on which to make a precise intervention.

This obviously does not give the Chair very precise guidance. Certainly, the Chair does not wish to interrupt when the matter is one of some complexity where there may be insufficient understanding if a person is cut off, but one of the duties of the Chair is to permit as many questions as possible for 7635

December 11, 1980 Tape 2852 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : hon. members. Obviously, that duty is subject to the interest of the House gn a.particular matter. As long as the person answering is speaking directly to the question, i.e. is giving relevant inf .ormation, then the Chair really cannot exercise any initiative in cutting off the speaker giving th~ answer. All I would like to do is to point out to hon. meffibers that in terms of question~, the same general rule applies in terms of answers as well.

The basic philosophy behind it is that if questions are too long and answers are too long then obviously, there will be fewer questions and fewer subjects covered. Both questions and answers should be kept brief, exactly to the point without

preambles, statements of opinions, arguments, a."ld giving only the information necessary to make the question and answer clear. I thank the han. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) for raising that matter and trust that all members will adhere to the rules of the House. and Energy. MR .• BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, I think that is a very worthwhile precedent that we will be able to refer .back to when we get points of order raised from time t·o time. Because I think that Barry's Theorem still applies here, Mr. Speaker - 'SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER: MR .

BARRY: MR • SPEAKER : to answer the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: the or e.'ll is? AN HON . ~!EMBER : Oh, oh! Order, please! - Barry's Theorem being that - Perhaps the minister would like Oh, oh! Does anybody wan~ to know what the Yes, we are all anxious. 763R •

December 11, 1980 Tape 2852 EC - 3 MR. BARRY: I will have another opportunity to set up Barry's Theorem, Mr. Speaker. If I can just finish, the federal government has taken the opportunity of updating its antiquated oil and gas regulations following the Newfoundland regulations. I have mentioned some of the ones that they have incorporated from ours, and 7 s :. 7

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2853 DW - 1 MR. L. BARRY: where they were, Mr. Speaker, in 1973 a~d 1974,criticizing our proposed regulations saying, 'You will nevar get oil or gas exploration off your coast if you bring in those regulations'. ~hey have now seen the light, Mr. Speaker. And that is why 1qe are not too everly concerned. The federal government can keep catching up to what the Province is doing in the oil and gas field. In the ~eantime 1we carry on business as usual. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): ~ember for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker,could the hon. gentleman - this is probably the most significant happening on tne off­ shore since drilling started back in 1964 or 1965 - could the hon. gentleman tell the House whether this legislation, which defines federal lands, referred to as Canada lands, as the two Northern territories including the high Arctic and about 2.5 million square miles of offshore areas, does that ~nclude Hibernia, that 2.5 million square miles of offshore areas? Does that include the Grand Banks,I would like to ask the hon. gentleman? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines Mr.

Speaker, that is the same definition of Canada lands, I understand, that the federal government has had in their - I guess, previously it was - ~fuat was the name? - the Public Lands Grants Act, Mr. Speaker. So now it will be contained in the Canada Oil and Gas Act. Big deal! MR. s. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 763R ~

December 11 , 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoil.e. MR. S. NEAAY: t.-. -·--· Ta;>e No . 2853 C\11 - 2 Final supplementary , the hen . Mr . Spe.ake-r, in view of the fact now that the Canadian government is taking thro~gh a law, through a piece o£ legislation . . being passed in. the Pa.rliament of Canada , taking cont:-ol of offshore resources in the name of the peo~le of Canada , · ~ill thi? govern ment now go humbly to Mr . Trudeau - SOi'<lE RON • MEt-l.BERS : Oh, o h! MR .

S • NE.li.RY : - to try to negotiate a deal on the of fshore or wi ll this gove r nment do what they should have done six or seven years and that is have the matter of vffshore ownership settled by the Supreme Court of Canada?. It seem s to me the only route ~ t here a r e onl y two or: three routes they can take now . It is either challenge this legis l ation in the courts - SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER: ~·!R . S • NEARY: Oh , oh! Orde.r, please! The government onl y has ·two or three choices open to them . Either challenge the legislation in the court; go humbly t o Mr .

Trudeau and ask him to go back to the university formula, 100 per cent tax revenue until \Y"e become a have Province; or sit back and wait 5or one of the oil companies to determ i ne which permit they are going to operate ~nder and have them challenge it in the court . Now which strategy is this g ove~ent going to use to get this off shore question settled? 7"":.0 'J.J i' _.

December 11, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : and Energy. MR. B.A.RRY : Tape No; 2854 EL - 1 The han. the t>Iinister of Ylines Mr. Speaker, even if this government wished to kiss a certain part of Mr. Trudeau's anatomy, there would be nineteen members on the other side lined up ahead of us and we would not be able to get - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOHE EON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Y~. BARRY: Maybe not quite nineteen, Mr. S9eaker, but almost. Now - AN HON. MEMBER: Eighteen, eighteen. t>!R. BARRY: Eighteen, is it?

Well, maybe not even a full eighteen because I understand that some of the members opposite are finding it very hard to stomach what is corning out of Ottawa on the offshore mineral rights question. Mr. Speaker, we have kept our options open as to the action which will be necessary or which might be necessary should there be an impasse reached with respect to offshore oil and gas exploration and drilling. At the present time, exploration is proceeding at an appropriate rate. There is no impasse,Mr.

Speaker, it is business as usual,and it is not appropriate for this government to reveal the strategy which it might employ, might have to employ sometime in the future. SO~ HON. MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: Nova. MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Terra Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower(J. Dinn) respecting the present strike with the support staff at the College of Trades and Technology. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, 7 !Jt, n

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2854 EL - 2 MR. LUSH: whether the minister realizes but he has an onerous responsibility to ensure that ~abour-manage­ ment relations are not allowed to deteriorate in this Province and that the collective bargaining process is not permitted to erode, So in view of the statement made by the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) today, the President of Treasury Board,suggesting that negotiations have now broken ~ff again, in view of this, Mr. Speaker, I wonder what the Minister now plans to do, whether it is a hands-off situation, just what is the situation?

Is there going to be another offer? Is the minister going to try and bring his influence on the Minister of Finance and try and get this strike settled? v~at is the minister planning to do to gain some credibility with the labour movement in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Manpower. The hon. the Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite obviously knows what the procedure is and what the law states in this Province \dth respect to labour relations.

And if you were to read that lavl very carefully, one would know that there is very little tha~ a person can do in the position of the Ministe.r of Labour and Hanpower with respect to forcing people to do anything on either side cf t~e bargaining table. The Minister of Labour and Manpower generally allows bargaining to continue between both sides until there is an impasse or an apparent impasse, at '"hich point one side or the other would recommend or request a conciliation board and that is done normal under the act. Under these conditions then,the fact of the matter is that the minister 7 5 4 1

December 11, 1980 Tape 2855 EC - 1 MR. DINN: has a choice to provide a conciliation board or not to provide a conciliation board, and we did in the case of the General Service, because most bargaining units were looking for a conciliation board to see what the general outcome would be. Now, in the College of Trades .· and Technology's situation, even· though unde_r the legislation they request conciliation boards, they indicated to ~y officer that they did not really want one. But that is the procedure that sets definite timetables into place.

And the timetables after that is that the conciliation officer has fourteen days in which to report and make a recommendation,which has happened. They have gone through the normal procedures, and, Mr.Speaker, there is just simply nothing that can be done. We have called both sides, we got them together. Neither side really wanted to get together at this last meeting. We asked them to come together to see if there was something that could be worked out. They came, reluctantly.

We called them exploratory meetings. l'i'e sat down all day yesterday and into last evening and there was just no agreement that could be reached. Now, in that situation, the employees have the right to strike, and they are exercising that right. There is not very much that the Minister of Labour and Manpower can do outside of talking to both sides to see if there can be some change in either side's position, and that will continue. The conciliation officer, the Director of Labour Relations, is in that position and we will continue to do that until there is some sort of a break. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has expired. 7 ,...., 1 ., I '] l. /

Dec~~er 11, 1980 Tape 2855 EC - 2 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the financial statements for Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation for the year ended March 31, 198.0. MR. SPEAKER: Any further reports? ANSviERS TO QUE STIONS FOR l•ilHCH NOTICE HAS aEE N GIVEN i>!R . SPEil..KER: The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR . GO UDIE : Mr. Speaker, yesterday the han. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) asked a question relating to the price of gasoline and stove oil on the North Coast of Labrador. I have thatinformation. And for the information of the han. House, at Nain- Woodward 1 s Oil is the dealer - gasoline sells for $1.64, stove oil $1.28 and diesel fuel $1.55; at Davis Inlet, Rural Development is the retail agent -gasoline $1.65, stove oil $1.30, diesel fuel $1.30; Hopedale, \voodward 1 s Oil - no gas as yet, stove oil $1. 2 5, diesel fuel $1.25; Labseaco at Hopedale - no gas as yet, stove oil $1.28, diesel fuel $1.28; and the Rural Development price, gasoline only, $1.44.

Now, this gas is over a year old, thus the reason for the lower price. Rural Development will be out of g.as by the end of December and then the other oil companies will take over selling gasoline. At Postville, Rural Development gasoline price is $1.70, stove oil $1.30, diesel fuel $1.30; at Makkovik, the Rural Development price - Northern Development, really, gasoline $1.70, stove oil $1.30 and diesel fuel $1.30. S~:t

Dec~~er ~' 1980 Tr"e No . 2856 D~v - l ~1R . J . GOUDIE : The re~son :or t~e difference in prices o= ga sm d stove oil in Nain, Davis Inlet and ~akko - vik is because of the time difference in purchasing the supply. There was a 7. 7 cent increase mace up as :cllo 1"s: 2.7 cents federal tax and a 5 cent price difference in the price of gasoline . This increase came into effect 1Nh en the new supply 1-1as purchased for Postville snc Mc.kko\·iJ<i t:terefore, _the J?rices in those t•11o~ communi ties had to be i!'lcreased. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): &~y further answers to que stions?

Nould the il-.ssistant Cl~rk at the table please take the document from the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development . (Mr . ~oudie) rhe hon . Minister of Health . MR . lv . ROtiSE : Mr. Speaker, regarding a question yesterday with respect to~edicare administrative costs 1 I think the question implied that there was an increase in ~~e percentage of Medicare Eunds going to administration . T~e ac~ual =act is it is continually dec reasing as a per ­ centage ,and this year \.7as the l.owest , but ,.,hat the member vtas looking at 1·1as a di:=er'1!nt base.

And this year it was done on the fee for service cos~s rather than the sa laried positions also which was done last ye ar. 5o it is decrea sin g conti:IUouslv, as a matter of fact , l'l.r . S!)eaker, I ·-Till not use the ";. --;t ye ar, the first year it was 11.5 ?e:: cent but I understar.d th at was fifteen month s ratr<> .. than one year, but it went down from 7 per cer.t to 4. 4 oer cent this year , 4. 3 4. or something. Ni th respect to t..l1e em~Hoyees 1 there are si:<ty no1-1, sixty em9loyees.

That is six le ss than t:tere were in 196 ~1-rhen it was set up . il.nc , o: course the reason for that cutback has been ::he :act, c: course , of the com?uter coming L~. 7 !1 ... •

December 11 , 1980 Tape ND . 2356 DW - 2 1\!R . W. HOUSZ: The cost of services in 1971 the jobs , one person per 18,000 services and now it is one person for 46,000 services . There is one medical doctor employed and there is one executive director I thir:k these ·;;ere the same ;>ositions that '.<{e started off tvi th originally . All people are classifier' '!.ccording to the Government Services Classification ?lan and all jobs are advertis .ed through the Public Sen·ice and appointed by the Public Service . MR . SPEA-~P. (Simms) : Affairs . MRS . NENF.OOK: i).ny further answers to questions?

The h-:;n. ~!inister of Hunicipal '!r . Speaker, in response t::: the hon . member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) , his question yesterday about a '90 l ice invest~gation , the only police investi;ati on which has taken place in our department that I k:lOl'l about was one about t\<{0 to three yea·rs ago when a superintendent of utilities vias investigated . and no charges were laid . NR. S . NE.li~Y : No wronqdoinqs were found Was he ( L~audible ) . 7 l=: t.c;

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2857 SD - 1 MRS. H. NE\·JHOOK: Oh, yes, definitely yes, right. To7ell 1 I oo not think anything happened, he was just investigated and he stayed on, after awhile I think he did resign rut there was no reason for his resignation other than his own. MR. S. NEARY: Was he giv-=n a clean slate. MR. SPEAKER (Simms} MP.. SPEAKER: HR. F. 'tJHITE : Y./ere all the documents reroved fran his record? Any further questions? PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr.

Speaker, I have a petition that comes from 164 fishermen in the con'l!lunities of Comfort Cove, Newstead . and Campbell~on. And I will read the prayer of ~he petition, 'We, the undersigned fishermen of Comfort Cove, ~lewstead and Campbell ton, are deeply concerned over reports that there will not be a ~inter herring ice fishery in the Bay of Exploits for the 1980 season. Closing this fishery would take away a large portion of yearly fishing income from the undersigned and will certainly have an adverse affect on the economy of the area.

This fishery,in past years, has been at a time when unemployment has been at it highest for both fishermen and plant personnel. The quality of Winter herring is excellent, exceeding all other seasons, givinq fishermen top prices for top quality products. "%'e have geared ourselves over the past few seasons \"i th purchases of special nets, snow machines and so on to prosecute the fishery. Given the above circumstances and dire need for this Winter fishery at this time, we feel it is within our rights to demand this fishery continue and a quota be allotted as quickly as possible~ Now, Mr.

Speaker, I fully realize that the responsibility for having a Winter ice fishery in C>Jotre Dame Bay does not rest ,..,i th this government, but I 1vas asked by the 164 fishermen in the area to present this petition 7134~

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2857 SD - 2 MR. F. WHITE: in the House. Mr. George Baker, the MP for the area,has been asken to present a similar petition in the House of Commons. I do hope that when this petition is referred ·to the department to which it relates that the minister will use some effort in trying to get this Winter ice fishery reinstated in Notre Dame Bay. It is a unique fishery, Mr. Speaker; it has proven to be an excellent means of income over the past number of years and I do hope that the government will use what effort it can to have this fishery reinstated. I have also, Mr.

Speaker, which I wil table,supporting doc•.1ments from Notre Dame Bay Fisheries Limited from A. Northcott Limited and from the Lewisporte Chamber of Commerce. SO~!E :!ON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of Fisheries . MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in commenting on that petition from 164 fishermen and supported by the fishing industry companies in the area, I would be only too pleased to put forward their case .as provincial minister!to my counter­

part in Ottawa. But I will say in doing that and in supporting the request of the fishermen that I would have to recommend to the federal minister that some very siginficant changes be made to that fishery. What has been happening, and the reason why the quotas have been taken so early in the season and taken last Spring,is because approximately 39,000 licenced fishermen were given the right to go out and fish for a restricted species, nerring stocks are restricted, there are quotas placed on them, but at the same time there is no restriction· as to how many fishermen can fish that restricted species.

And as long as you have that situation you are going to have serious problems, In this case, the only way the problem can be resolved is to have the federal minister, which I understand he is not going to do i~ 7RL.7

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2858 EL - 1 HR. HORG~"1: '81 unfortunately but he should be doin~ it, he should be placing restrictions as to who can fish for a restricted species, in this case the herring stocks. And if the situation was that last Spring, there probably would have baen a quota left for the Winter fishery, in this case the ice fishery, in the Comfort Cove-Ncwstead area.

So, therefore,r will support the petition with that qu~lification that only fulltime fishermen, I repeat, fulltime fishermen in that area of the Province because it is restricted to a quota so there should be restrictions as to how many fishermen can fish that species and therefore the fulltime fishermen who do nothing else but fish for a living in that area will be entitled to fish and hopefully for a Winter fish- ery_· But again, Mr.Speaker, I want to say that last Spring we requested-fulltime fishermen, Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of the me~bers who asked the question, in our view is a person who earns 75 per cent of their income during the fishing season in their respective regions of the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, one little closing comment: If you recall last Sprin~ in this House of Assembly , I tabled documents forwarded to Mr. LeBlanc asking him tnen to carry out considerable research work on the herring stocks around our lnshore waters.

I understand that work has not been done to date and therefore it is difficult to determine quota~ wh~n ther~ is no scientific evidenc~ available to establish these quotas _ So, there will be two re~uests in combination with thP perition forwarned ro Mr. LPBl.=mc. .MR. HANCOCK: HR. SPEAKER (Si~ms) : the Capes. :-l:R. HA.lllCOCK: Mr. Speaker . The han. member for St. Mary's - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to present a petitionfrom some 450 oeople who support the upgrading and paving of St. Shott's ~eter's Ri ver Road. 7S4A

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2858 EL - 2 MR. HANCOCK: The road in question is a thirty mile

section of road and most signatures on this petition, Mr. Speaker, have to drive back and forth over that

section of road to get to work. And I, for one, this Summer, Mr. Speaker, experienced some difficulty in ·not only getting back and forth over the road but damages to my vehicle in the meantime. I spoiled two tires and a windshield and I only go thera occasionally, so you can imagine the costs to the people of that area when they have to drive back and forth every day. Last Spring, in the House of Assembly, the Minister of Transnortation and Communications (C.Brett) said that~ would be getting out of the crusher business but they would also be purchasing crushed stone from private enterprise.

To my knowledge there has been nothing - in no way, shape or form has there been any crushed stone purchased in my district this year. The only fill that we get for the roads is right out of the pits that are joined· to the road and this, Mr. Speaker, not only makes it difficult for the grader operator but it also makes it difficult for the passengers of the vehicles driving back and forth to work. It was twice this Summer, coming back out of Trepassey,that I had to stop and remove boulders fron the road,and in this day and age, Mr. Speaker, that is not good enough.

The people of the district feel it is not good enough and this is why they have petitioned the government to do something about it. And on that stretch of road that they are concerned about there are two one-way bridges, Mr. Speaker, and there are millions of pounds of fish being trucked out of Trepas~ey yearly and they feel it is time for the government to take whatever action necessary to make sure that that road is paved. n~ t. o -·

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2859 RA - l MR. D. HANCOCK: We hear the 1-linister of Transportation talking so much about the Trans-Canada Highway. We. hear very little about the secondary roads around this Province ,and I might add those secondary roads are the same to the people there in my district and other districts around the Province th~t the Trans-Canada is to ~eople who have to use it. It is time fer those roads to be paved,Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that we can save enough money on maintenacne alone to pave those roads if we put our heads together, Mr. Speaker.

I whole-heartedly support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. The names of the people ar­ range fran =mnmities from Trepassey, St. Shott's, St; Stephens, Peter's River and St. Vincents and they think it is about time this aovernment,if they can afford to spend $100,000 on flags and put the Premier's picture around the public building3, they shoul1 be able to come up with some money for their road ,Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. D. HANCOCK: I whole-heartedly support the petition,Mr.

Speaker,and I call on the government to take immediate action to see that some improvements ar~ made to this road. SOME HON. M&~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. member from LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, first of all it gives me great pleasure to support the petition for road improvements submitted on behalf of 45n neoole between St. Shott's and Peter's River. They are asking for road improvements in the petition so ably pre- 78c;n ..:

December 11, 1980 Tape No . 2859 RA - 2 HR . S. NEARY : sented by my hen. colleague the member for St. Mary's-The Capes. Secondly 1Mr.Speaker, I want to congratulate the member for St. Mary's - The Capes for che way he is fighting foi his constituents. My colleague,as hen. members are aware 1Mr. Speaker, is one of Newfoundland's most outstanding athletes ·and he knows what it is like to be invoived in a fight The people of St. Mary's-The Capes are very fortunate to have him as their representative and I want to say,Mr.

Speaker, in such a short time in my experience in this House, I have never seen a Iiew member grasp the situation and fight as hard for his constituents as my hon. colleague 1the member iNhO has just presented the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: The road conditions described in the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker ,are a condemnation of ahe priorities of this government. It is a crying shame, !tr. Speaker~ that so many people in that area should have to co~~ute daily back and forth to work over such hazard- ous and unsafe road conditions.

Hon. ma~ers know that one of the largest fish plants in Newfoundland is l.ocated in that area and the .se people have to go back and forth, drive back and forth every day, commute back and forth to that fish plant to work and some days they are risking their lives in driving over these roads they are in such poor condition. And then you have school buses, school buses,Mr. Speaker, going back and forth. Now, the government seems to be able to come up with money for ev·erything else, so why would they not be able to find a few paltrY dollars to help fix up this road ? '"!r. Speaker, I think it is a shame.

I think the govern- ment should get their priorities straight. And 7 .~- . IJ:a'

December 11, 1980 Tape 2860 EC - 1 MR. !><EARY: I would like to see something done \'lith that stretch of road at as early a date as possible. Again, I want to congratulate my colleague for bringing this matter to the attention of members of the House of Assembly. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that there are more.miles of gravel road per capita in that district than in any other district in Newfoundland. I think the government should pay a little more attention to it and see that these people who are primary producers, Mr. Speaker -we should be looking after our primary producers.

We should be looking after the men and women who man the primary industries in this Province, the men and women who man the fish plants, the fishermen out in their boats. We should be looking after them. They should get the number one priority in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ~EARY: I challenge the gove~nrnent now to see to it that that road between St. Shotts and Peter's River is upgraded at as early a date as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Hear, hear! Further petitions? The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Lodge Bay in Labrador South. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is asking the provincial government to start the construction of a road from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour, which is a distance of six miles. This petition has been presented to this House over the past seventeen years. I presented it last year, I will present it this year, and hopefully, this will be the last time that I will present it. 7 s ~I?

December 11, 1980 Ta pe 286 0 ;::c - 2 ~L ~. !:US COC K : Thay are ha ving pro bl ems gett in g mail in Mary's Harbour in the late Fall and early Spring because of the break-up. If this road t<~ere built, they would be able . to drive over to the airstrip at Mary's Harbour and pick up their mail. They a],.so have problem getting supplies coming in. Supplies have to be l.anded on the wharf in Mary's Harbour and then taken over by skidoo tc;> Lodge Bay. Students going to school have to leave their homes, only six miles away, and live with people in Lodge Bay. Also, they have problems getting to the nursing station.

They have to go by boat, or, as I said, travel by skidoo. This year has been quite an unusual year in that there is no snow on that ·part of the coast. They have plenty of snow in Labrador City and Wabush area and Churchill Falls, but not on the Coast. So, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition whQleheartedly. I pQint out to the present administration that we have now more than three Ministers of Transportation who have said that they would get something done with this road. On this petition, Mr ·• Speaker, there are twenty-five names. There would have been more, but it was done and sent in to me very briefly.

It is very hard to get people in that community. to sign a petition anymore because they are very, very cynical from the point of view of presenting a petition for the past seventeen years and three or four Ministers of Transportation not havingdone anything with it. 78 51 ..

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2861 DW - l !1R. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Soeaker, I askthat this govern- ment immediately take action that work will begin on the construction of that road and that-we get away from the alienation that residents in Lodge Bay are feeling from being isolated in this t<B-rt of our Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE.~ER (Simms): of Belle Is_le. 'lfR. E. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Strait Mr.

Speaker, let me say quite simply but quite sincerely that if thero wer~~ny group of people living anywhere in this Province who have a legiti­ mate claim or legitimate grievance with the government - and by which I do not simply mean the group of men and women who happen to hold the Queen's Commission from time to time but the totality of the governmental structure - if there was any group of men and women in this Province who have a legitimate grievance against the government - and there are many such groups in my view-than the people who live along the coast of Southern Labrador and particularly the people who live in the communities North of Red Bay and South of the Lake Melville area.Now these are the communities from Paradise and Cartwright in the North to Mary's Harbour and Lodge Bay and Battle Harbour and Cape Charleston itself.

Those people, Sir, have a grievance above all others. The petition points up one aspect of the grievance and the grievance is founded,and legitimately so,in the fact that the quality and the auantity of the oublic services available to these people is appauling ~nd it is hard to understand in this day in age how it can be tolerated.

And I am not going to stand here and blame the present political government, thev have to take their share of the blame, they have to shoulder their share of the responsibility,but I think everybody who has ever been connected with government in this Province has to accept some lesser share. 7 .~,. j_ 'J:J<-' _:

December 11 , 1980 Ta9e No . 2861 Dlv - 2 :-l.R. £. ROBERTS : I a~ not concerned about that; wha~ I am concernec about is where we go from here . The people who live in Southern L.abrador, Sir, anc . particularly in the communities named . These are ~~e communities that are not served by even the excuse for a r oad that runs :rom ~~e border of L'Anse -au-Clair, just South of L'Anse ­ au-Clair on u9 into the communit y c: Red 3ay . The peo9le who live North of that , Sir, have access to,i:l real ter:ns . no 9ublic services.

They have now reach ·ed the happy stage, the halcyon sta ge that mo st of this Province had reacheo about 191 9. These people in Lodge Bay are not asking :or very much . They are asking for the construction of a six mile bit of road, a six mile stretch of road that runs to the communicy which is their metropolis, the community of Mary's Rarbour,where they must go for almcs~ every type of facility or service tha t is necessary to enable men and '.'lomen anc children to live and to cope in this day and age in which '"e live .

And when we can live in a t.,rorld in \vhich we can hear that we are talking c: more arterial roads i:l St. John' s - apd they n~ s:; .:

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2862 SD - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: may be valuable although the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) _if he did not hear the CBC at 8:55 this morning, ought to get hold of them and ask them to read the letter which they read which.I must say, pokes fun at him in the most sophisticated and deadly fashion, even Dean Swift would have approved. It just made the minister look like a fool quoting his own words. And I am not sure whether they were accurately put or not but it made him look like a complete, utter, and appalling fool quoting his own words.

But in any event, if we could talk of arterial roads and that is what the minister - I will tell him outside the House because I have only a limited time here but it \vas really a savage hatchet job using a hatchet the minister had fashioned with his own two little hands, I gather, or his own little mouth as the case may be­ but when we can talk of arterial roads like this, you know, in the name of all that is sacred, how can we justify the disparities of bring that kind of facility here in this part of the Province 1 where even the parking lots are paved, and on the other hand people who are just as much Ne~foundlanders and Labradorians as any of us, whose needs are as real as any of ours 1 and they do not have anything at all?

And let me add just one other brief note~ I hope the government will not attempt to shelter behind the skirts of this pernicious doctrine that somehow Ottawa is responsible. I am unable to understand how a group of men and women in the form of this government and the shape of this government,on the one hand say that they claim provincial rights and responsibilities and intend to exercise them 1 which I agree and support and endorse 1 and on the other hand cavil and snivel and weasel and scuffle and shuffle around and say Ottawa ought to do everything from building outhouses to building ice research centres.

And I would say to the ~-1insiter of Transportation (Mr. Brett) that if he does not start 76SR ~ ~

i~ December 11, 1980 Tape NO. 2862 so - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: taking his responsibilities seriously and getting some money and building, among other things , this six miles of road, he might as well turn in his seal of office because he is accepting money un~er false pretenses when he accepts his salary cheque every forthnight or so. I support the petition, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER· (Simms) Any further petitions? ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: Second reading of a bill, ''P..n Act Respecting Juries And Compensation Of Jurors In The Supreme Court Of The Province And Compensation For Certain Witnesses In The Courts Of The Province". (.Bill 67). Debate was adjourned, I believe, by the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) and he has about fourteen minutes remaining. The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Ah, Mr. Speaker, how quickly the time goes by when one is doing work that is in the Lord's service. I have said largely what I wish to say on this.

I know the minister is giving earnest and prayerful consideration to the points which I made and I hope he will respond in a positive fashion and we will see some amendments made to this bill in Committee. I think the points which we have raised on this side, a number of my colleagues have spoken and I believe at least one other of my colleagues wishes to make another new point and he will make it briefly but forcefully. I think these points are good points and I know that the minister will consider them and I hope earnestly that as a result of this consideration will be some changes.

I realize that on many of these points it will come down in the long run 7657 -· ....

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2863 EL - 1 MR. ROBERTS: to what in the jargon we now call a judgement call, which is another way of saying that it is going to come down, you know, to what one man or what one group of men decide: It is a matter of opinion. But I believe in this case the minister might be well advised to remember Cromwell's advice and I would quote it to him. "I beseech thee, brother, in !:he bowels of Christ, thee may be wrong." And I would say to the minister that on this he may well be wrong and I think he ought to make some changes.

The han. member wishes to know whether it is parliamentary; Cromwell made his own parliamentary rules. Cromwell also carne up in the Long Parliament - it was not Cromwell, one of his supporters, with the most famous words of all which I would quote to the han. gentleman, "Get thee hence. Thee have sat here much too long, for any good thou hast done." SOME SON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may carry on without this incessant harassment from the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please! MR.

ROBERTS: I do hope the minister will respond in the same depth and perception and erudition that my colleagues have shown in their remarks on this bill. I believe the result of his acceptance of some changes will be to confirm our view of him as a gentleman of stature, erudition, wisdom, altogether a leading light in an otherwise dim bank of floodlights, the present Cabinet, a group of extinct volcanos, if we wish to quote Disraeli, I believe. AN HON . r-tEHBER: 1·L~. ROBERTS: I ai11 worried. The hon. gentleman well ought to be '"'orried; he ought to have a look at what is going on behind him. 7S5R .:

Decembe.r 11, 1980 Tape No . 2863 EL - 2 MR . ROBERTS : 30\·7ever, ! want to make one other brief point and that is with reference to

section 28 of the bill . It is an inferenti al point but I notice we are still preserving in this Provin ce, and this bill carries it on again - ! am no t sure this bill could end it, it might take a separate bill but we are still preservin g in this Province the common law tortuous action s of seduction and br~ach of promise of ma:::riage. . Now, the hen . member for Humb er East (M s. Ver ge) is a flami ng women's libber, I believe, and more credit to h~r, more credit to her .

And she, I believe, in ~er mom~~ts of exaltation and exultation wishes to claL~ credit for reforms, and I will now point out to her gratuitously, and she is not even here to hear me , I 111:.1 1 point out t~ her one of the most sexist .and offensive form s of action that still live s and breathes in ~;e law of thi s Province, ~~d that is the action for seduction and the action for b~·each of promise of ma:::riage . They do exist in civil law .

I know that Your Honour has no interest in either, that Yo ur Honour is in the position of never having, I am confident, ever to be exposed to the risk of being found liable . There is no gua r~~ee Your Honou r cannot be named a defendan t, because anybody '"i th S4 . 00 can swea r o n a st atement of claim and a writ of summons and the .n Your Honou r is put at ri sk, but I am sure tha~ You r Honour '"'ould have no - C·IR. BARRY : His Ho nour's honour . MR . ROBERTS : His Ho nour 's honour would be put in, and I sa y to my friend from - where has he taken re=uge? ~1t . Scio (Z.!r . Barry) - the refugee 76=iu ·-

December 11, 1980 Tape 2864 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: who now represents Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), that he and I equally are not at risk in this. But there are,nonetheless, potential defendants who may be at risk throughout the Province. And the fact remains that this form of action still exists, it still survives. I have no idea whether there has ever been a claim lodged in the courts of this Province under this head. I~ would be most interesting. Perhaps my friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) knows whether anybody has ever taken a civil action for seduction or for breach of promise of marriage.

The fact remains, they still exist in our law, and if ever there was a form of action that grows out of the concept that we all find essential today, this is it, because it grows simply and straight from the concept that a woman is a piece of property, a chattel. And because she is a chattel, the legal theory in the olden days ra~ because she is a chattel, if she is seduced, her damage is reduced, and therefore the action lies against the perpetrator of this seductive anu tortuous conduct.

So I would say to the minister, I am sorry we are preserving the jury right in respect of these actions because I am sorry we are preserving the right of actio~ at all. I think that it would probably take statute to wipe them out. They are there in the ancient case law; heaven knows how far back they go, probably hundreds of years when judges made all this law. The time may have come when the Legislature ought simply to pass a bill to end once and for all the right of a person to bring an action against - not another person to bring an action in respect of a woman whose 'value' has been damaged in this respect.

I think, Sir, that is a most offensive remnant hanging around in our law, let us clean it up. 78i=lfl ~

December 11, 1980 Tape 2864 EC - 2 t>lR . ROBERTS : Now, having said all that, I understand that one of my colleagues wishes to speak, so I shall end what I have to say. I do want to say that the bill is a step forward, in our view, but. it could be a much bigger step.forward than it is and I do hope most earnestly and most sincerely - 1 know the m~nister does not doubt my good faith, some of his colleagues in their jesting and jocular way may - but I do hope most earnestly and most sincerely that the minister will look at the changes which we have recommended and will bring them in, will introduce them.

We could, in Committee, and we might, that remains to be seen, but the fact in real life is that if we do bring them in, they are not going to be accepted in Committee. Let the government bring them in and l·et them be accepted because it will make the bill a better one. It is not a partisan matter but it is very much a political matter in that it deals with the high policy, the policy which has been set by the Supreme Court of this Province and that Supreme Court, of course, is this Legislature, the highest court under the Consti tut;ion in this Province. Thank you very much, Sir. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the me~er for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I want to make a few remarks. I would like to ask the minister when he gets up to close the debate on this act, to look carefully at 7 '"''"''I 00 ..: ·_;

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2865 DW - 1 MR. G. WARREN: subsection (

d) and (

e) of

section 5 which says a person is disqualified for serving on a jury who is an officer or an employee of the Department of Justice in the federal government and also an employee of the Department of Justice in the provincial government. Now, the reason I want to bring that up, Mr. Speaker, is if we go back in history to about five years,we know that there is a gean replacement scandal on the go with the Department of Fisheries.

Now,am I left to understand that an officer or an employee of the Depart­ ment of Fisheries,where at the present time there is a gear replacement scandal, a gear replacement court action pending, are those people,in that department or in any other depart­ ment,are t1-Jev excluded from acting on the jury? Because surely goodness they are - MR. G. OTTENHEH~ER: by a counsel are excluded,but anybodv rl'/ho They can be publicly challenged These are the people who by statue has an involvement or could have a bias or this or that can be challened and disqualified. MR. G. WA~~N: So therefore, Mr.

Speaker, and this is why I asked the minister the question, to clarify that other departments of government there could be ongoing court action that also those people would not be permitted to sit on jury also. Now, Mr.Speaker, I want to go to another very, very - what I consider a very, very im­ portant clause and that is clause L of the same section, a spouse of any person referred to paragraphla)to ~). Now, Mr. Speaker, I mvself for one, all members of this hon. House and other people as specified in (

a) tc-C~). Now if we have a spouse that she is - or in the other case of Madam Minister he is not allowed to sit on a jury. I would like to ask the minister though how 7 8 ti? ~

December 11, 1980 Tape No . 2965 m' 1 - 2 MR • G • \·7.~J:tRE.l'i : about if I am living co~~on law or .am cohabitating? AN HO~. ~~ER : ?-'IR • W.i\RREN : Shacked U':). Mr . Speaker, under the new Matrimo nial Act it is almost encouraging . So I think it is a serious consideration, Mr . Speaker . What the minister should look at serio us~Y is that i~ this Prov - ince of our s there are ~ a~y, many people - MR. D . F10L LETT: Shacked-up . MR .

G • w"ARREN : I ?robably should not use the word 's hacked -up ', it might be unparliamentary,but the::::e are :nany, many C'eople in this Province tvho ar!:! living com.'llon latv and have beer. for quite a ;>eriod o~ ti:ne. The person is confin~:i as much into that ;>er - son as I would ?robablv in ~Y own wife .. So I think the ~inis~er has to be broader on subsection (1) o=

section S because you are pinning it dot-Jn to those who are considered married and living 76~ ':1 -·

December 11, 1980 Tape 2866 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: with one's spouse. But then again, there are a lot of people, as I said, who are living common law or who are cohabitating,, and with this in mind, I strongly suggest to the minister that he take this under consideration before this bill is enacted. Thank you. MR. SPEbKER (Butt) : If-the hon. the minister speaks now, he closes the debate. The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I will not be long, but there are a numbe~ of points that have been mentioned and I will refer to them,and perhaps I will move back, I will just - some of them, while they are still fresh in my mind. The matter brought up by the hon. gentleman, the last speaker, in my opinion, the word 'spouse' there would not include common law but would only include a person married. It would not include common law. I am not sure whether it should or not, there are questions of - I can see arguments both ways.

We are not dealing with a situation, you know, of matrimonial property where obviously you are dealing with specific areas. There are matters, I think, of public policy and I :nn by no means willing to say that in each and every statute that we should say 'spouse whether married or common law'. It would be as if, you know, one were putting them on a par and these are matters, obviously, of personal judgement and personal value. But I think there is an area of public policy there as well. But in my opinion it would not include such a person. That is all I wanted to say on that. 7884 ~

December 11, 1980 Tape 2866 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: There are a couple of other . matters I wanted to refer to. The hen. the member for Lewisporte (Mr. Wnite) - I know that there are two or three areas where hon. members have been, you know, more critical, but these a~·e just smaller matters, if you wish.

The hon. the member for Lewisporte asked about the difference for a majority verdict in a civil mateer and unanimous in a criminal matter, and my only answer to that is that is, and has been, to the best of my knowledge, an essential or a basic, a continuing principle in the English justice legal system, and the only rationale I can think of is that the burden, the amount of proof - well, obviously, gravity can be quite different in a civil offence and also the proof which has to be establi?hed in a criminal matter beyond reasonable doubt and a civil matter on the balance of probabilities and I could only presume that that is the historic reason for it.

Now, I want to deal with a matter which is referred to in

Section S(m). It has been suggested or alleged - whether seriously or not, I am not sure, because this states: "A person is disqualified from serving as a juror who is:" -and let me read that- "a person afflicted with blindness, deafness" then "or a mental or physical infirmity incompatible with the discharge of the duties of a juror." So, first of all, leaving the 'blindness' and 'deafness' aside for a moment, it is not a disqualification of people with a mental or physical infirmity, it goes on to say 'a mental or physical infirmity incompatible with the discharge of the duties of a juror'.

I mean, I think it is self-evident that you have to put that in there, and the disqualification of the blind and the deaf cannot be regarded as a prejudice or a 7 ",.., ~ 1]0'"1 o- -;; ..:.

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2867 EL - 1 MR. OTTENHEI!Jf.ER: discrimination against them, It is generally understood and almost self-evident a juror has to be able to see an exhibit or the witness or matters brought in, I mea-n,because there is the protection of the accused as well. Andit is not discrimination against the blind but.I suppose,it is to protect the rights of the ac- cused. The juror does,in fact, to discharge his or her duties, have to be able to see and have to be able to hear. So there is no discrimination there.

It is just the very nature of that job requires that a person be able to see and hear the same as, for example, it would not be right to say there is discrimination against the blind because they are not bus drivers. I mean,there are certain functions that require certain physical abilities. So I think t~at looks after the blindness and the deafness,but I want to be quite specific there. There is obviously no intent of discrimination or no fact of discrimination but it is ne- cessary that people performing certain duties see and hear.

And the other part of it, of course, says, "or a mental or physical infirmity incompatible •,,ri th the discharge of the duties of jurors'! So that thing takes care of that. MR. THOMS: What is even more serious is the fact that a handicapped person, for example, somebody who is in a wheelchair could probably #ithout some considerable help could not get into a courtroom - MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Yes, well,that is a matter of a physical facility.There is obviouslv not much we can do about it until we get new and better courtrooms.~nd all public build- ings that are now being built are being built with amenities for the handicapped and I think all schools being built and all of this is now being done but obviously that does not 7R-R ~ t1 ..:

December 11, 1980 MR. OTTENHEIMER: existed in the past. Tape No. 2867 EL- 2 solve all the problems which Now, I just want to - maybe what I should do, just to show hon. members what a difference this new act will make, is iust to indicate the groups of people who, under the present act are _automatically dis­ qualified,and it has been said,and it may be true 1 that there aremore people automatically disqualified than who are eligible to serve under the present act, That could be, I do not know.

Also, I shoud point out that nobody will be required to serve a jury duty more than once every three years, so while it may not be a popular responsibility or obligation or duty,it is not one which will occur very frequently for anybody .And I could point out as well that during a typical twelve month period,and that is not the immediate preceding twelve months but it is a twelve month period within the past twenty months when these statistics were done up, t~ere were twenty-one lUries involving 249 citizens, Bo, you know, we are not think­ ing of huge amounts of people and nobody would be required to serve more frequently than once every three years . .

"1R. L. THOMS: (Inaudible) excep·c..Lons to that. MR. OTTENHE IMER: MJ<.. L. TH0t1S : MR.OTTENHEIMER: What would that be? (Inaudible) Yes, but that would probably be very unlikely with the greatly expanded list that we would now have. Let me point out people who are now disqualified not only, you know, the ones w·ho are mentioned here but 7 s [i 7 ,· ...:

December 11, 1980 Tape 2868 MB - 1 MR. G.

OTTENHEIMER: members of any town council, local district council, community council, anybody involved in ·any of the municipal bodies;. teachers, professors, any teacher or professor at any school, university college'· ~actors, druggi~ts, x-ray technicians, lab technicians, physiotherapists, hospital orderlies, fire fighters, managers, clerks and cashiers of chartered banks-and that must mean just about everybody working in a bank,I suppose; the manager,or a clerk,or a cashier.~telegraph and telephone operators, pilots, people employed in the operation of tugboats, persons employed in the running of railway trains, ships or buses owned by the railways, people employed in the control or direction of commercial aircraft, or members of an aircraft crew, or supervisory flight operation personnel, or station handling people I suppose that includes everybody employed at an airport, or practically; undertakers are presently excluded.

So just to show the exclusions that have been really are very, very general.

Now, to come to the two specific points where hon. members have. on the opposite side, their vie\17S 1 I think 1 are different. + think some, but. with varying degrees perhaps of intensity,have taken exception to the disqualification of people whose job is either a Member of .P-arliament,a nanberof the Legislature, an employee of the federal or provincial Department of Justice, or the federal Solicitor General's Department, an officer of the co=t1 being a lawyer, a court official, sheriff, members of the police force, justice, warden and people in correctional institutions 1 in those general categories,and then it says and their spouses. 76 8R ~ .:.

December 11, 1980 Tape 2868 MB - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Number one,I will point out that,leaving the spouses aside for the moment, that is a general enactment in every jury act.

This jury act is based on w~at is called the Uniform Jary Act done up a number of years ago by the Uniform Law Commission which · brings toqether lawyers from all provinces, from the ten provinces, and who in quite some depth and with quite some knowledge,study these matters.l\nd that does not mean ' they are always right, certainly not,but it means that a great deal of k~owledge and thought and that has gone into it and in every jury act that I am aware of people who are immediately involved in the administration of justice are precluded. Now, one can say should it be a secretary? Where do you cut off the line?

I suppose you could go th=ough every employee of the Department of Justice·and say,well, there might be four or five here who should not be affected and then you create a new post some time and you would have to decide on that. And even a person working as a secretary can come across quite confidential information in files,or in typing, or in taking shorthand, or in relaying mes~ages and the general principle has been for this automatic dis­ qualification for people whose job is directly related to the administration of justice and I think that is valid.

Now, when it comes to the spouses-and I am not going to read at any great length because this is a matter a lot of people have thought about in this House and in this Province and indeed in other areas. I just want to read briefly from a document which is called a Report on the Administration of Justice in Manitoba& It is put out by the Mani~oba Law Reform Commission and the reason why I want to read from it 766° .;

December 11, 1980 Tape 2868 MB - 3 MH. G. OTTENHEIMER: is not because it is in Manitoba,but it is my understanding that this document wa ·s used as a source of reference by the Uniform Law Commission in drafting up their Uniform Jury Act. I will just read for a minute or so from it, this is dealing with the spouses. "We consider that all persons engaged in the administration of justice·ought to be excluded,that is to say disqualified. Some of us consider that ,additionally,the immediate families of all such persons ought to be excluded.

In our adversary system of litigation,as you will recall from your days as an active prosecutor, there not unnaturally developes a sen3e of us and them. This factor does net seem to taint the social and other out-of-court contact of prosecutors and defenders or their respective auxiliaries,but it certainly is to be reckoned at the very focal point of a system which in this context is the jury trial" ·· - '"ell, there he is dealing basically with people in the administration of justice - "that those referred to- judges, police, jailors, barristers, etc. - should be exempt admits of no doubt.

It is surely questionable- and this is the point to accept the spouses of such per5ons as jurors in the nai"ve assumption that despite a lifetime of living together none of the attitudes of the principles would ever be assimilated by their families. It is no wild speculation to suggest that even sheriffs' officers and court -:::lerks as jurors would be preferable to the spouses of judges, crown attorneys, defence council and police personnel as jurors in the opinion of most experienced trial counsel." 767n ~ ~

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2869 GH-1 r1R. OTTENHE I!1ER: "This is not to suggest that such persons are incapable of ~endering a true verdict despite such social and familial pressures but, rather, to suggest that there is much merit in the concept of justice not only being done but in manifestly appearing to be done. In accordance with the spirit of our traditional concept of trial by jury, the law itself should not permit" it to appear that a juror is not completely impartial between the contending parties.

We think, therefore, that the spouse of those people designated"- and that is police officers, etc. - "ought to be disqualified from jury service." And there, I would say, is the rationale.

It is not that a spouse of a Crown prosecutor or a police officer or a corrections official or a person in the Department of Justice or a member of the Legislature, it is not that the spouse could not and, perhaps, would not bring independent judgement, but it is the requirement that we have to be conscious of appearances and that is that justice appear to be done as well, and it could well undermine that principle if people were in a position to say, "~vell, you know, on that jury there was the spouse of Sergeant So-and-So in the Police Department or the spouse of the prosecutor in the Department of Justice or the spouse of the minister of this or the minister of that or the Leader of the Opposi·tion or whatever'".

So, it is in that context of that justice appearing to be done that on the balance - and, as the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (~1r. Roberts) said, a lot of these are matters of judgement - that on balance we feel that it is appropriate to also have the disqualification of spouses. That is a matter on which, obviously, there can be honest differences of opinion. We have ours and other people have theirs. Only God knows the 7 6 7 I .:

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2869 GH-2 MR. THOMS: The same rationale holds true for common-law spouses, as my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) was saying, the same rationale holds true for common-law spouses. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. THm-1S: MR. OTTE~HEHlER: I agree. There could be arguments - Yes. - for their inclusion ·and there are probably arau~e~ts for their exclusion, you know, thinking in terms of total parity. MR. THOMS: I cannot think of (inaudible) exclusion if you accept the spouses should be excluded. I cannot see it. MR. OTTENHEIMER: There would obviously be arguments for their inclusion.

I think there could be arguments in public policy for their exclusion. There is only one othe~ matter that I want to deal with and that is the position of senior citizens. I do not know if hon. members are aware that as. of now senior citizens are automatically disqualified. They may not serve even if they wish. They are among the people who are automatically disqualified as of now.

So, what we have done and what this bill will do is give them that right to serve as jurors, but it will recognize that having had that right and obligation mandatory from the period of their majority, nineteen years old up until sixty-five, that at that period they still have the right but if they wish to be excluded they may so do. And this is not at all the same as the sexist approach before because here both men and women who serve and have the right to serve and the duty to serve from when they are nineteen to when they are sixty-five, and at sixty-five we do not do, as is now the case, disqualify them.

They continue to be eligible but we give them the option recognizing your forty-four years of service as a juror, recognizing your contribution to society. In this matter, 767? .:

!: December 11, 1980 Tape Nc. 2869 GH·-3 MR . OTTE NHEIMER: as in other matters, we will give some recognition to your contribution . Th at is what the - what is it called? - Old Age Pension Plan is for . That become s operative at sixty -five . In many ways society takes special measures to recognize the contribution of senior citizens. It is done ir. certain Income Tax measures . It is done with the Old Age Pension. It is done within the provincial juri sdiction vlhereby no senior citizens have to pay school taxes .

It is done even in the private sector wh ere, I understand , ban.'<s and different organizations do cav e certain facili .ties and certain privileges, if you wish, which they extend to senior citizens . Even many theatres. I believe, have special tickets, special cut-rate prices . 3o, this is in recogn .i t ion of senior citizens from the ?Oint of view of the contribution that they hav e made . So what this act co es, it will stop the automatic disqualifica~ion whic h is no1~ operative whereby a sen .ior citizen cannot serve as a juror . It will recognize their full right 78 /1 ~ _;

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2870 DW - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: to serve as a juror but it-will recognize also their contribution during the past forty-four years and say to them, 'But if you wish to be exempt now that you are over sixty-five we will do so if you wish.' So, Mr. Speaker, I think that it is a very progressive move, I think it fully recognizes ~he rights and obligatiGns of senior citi­ zens1but it also recognizes that they may have some right to a recognition from their past accomplishments.

And it is not because the Opposition made the sug­ gestion of this or that; we have thought about, this is not, as has been said, this is not a nartisan matter. ~here is hardly any such thing as a Liberal jury philo­ sophy or a Conservative jury philosophy.

It is a fairly technical legal matter and it is not a partisan matter and I do not imagine any government is going to rise or fall on this Jurors' Act.But we have brought judgement on it.bnd we do intend to make an amendment, I think, as one bon. member said, and that is to provide for the remuneration where a person 1to perform the duties as a juror,incurs expenses for day care, looking after children, daycare, then they will be reimbursible for that.

But on the old ac;re we have hit the happy medium,. we have limited the automatic disqualifcation now operative, we have fully recognized their right, they may continue to serve as jurors as long as they wish. But if at sixty-five they wish to be exempt we will give it to them. I think we have hit a happy medium in that matter. I move second reading. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7671. .:.

December 11 , 1980 Tape No . 28 70 DW - 2 ~·L~ . L •. TEOt-!S : ~r. Speake~, I have a question o~ the arne~dment . MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. member for Grand Bank . ~ - L . TnO!•IS: t•Jill the aay -care amendment be available only for persons who have children seven years of age and under? M'R. G. OTTENHEB!'ER : MR . L. THOHS : MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: to that . :1R . L. THOMS: MR. G. OTTENHEIHER: No . It will be £or children - Yes, it would not be limited Okay , as in the bi~l? Yes .

On motion , a bill, "An Act Respecting Jurie s And Com~ensation Of Jurors In The Supreme Court Of The ~:-evince A.nd Compensation For Certain lhtnesses In The Courts Of The Province" , read a second time, ordered re£er:-ed to a Com~it~ee o': the Whole House on tomorrow . (Bill No . 67) Order 34 , Bill No . 84. Motion , second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Assessment ·Of Real ?roperty And The Imposition And Colle ction Of Certain Taxes In The City Of St . John's" . ( Bi 11 No. 8 4 ) MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The han . member for La - Poile . MR . S. N~.RY : I presume we are having the debate no>·l? MR . i1'.

MARSHALL : Jl. 9oint of order , ~lr . Speaker. ~1R . SPEAKER : The hon. President of the Council . 78 7; ~ -·

December 11 , 1980 Tape No . 2870 DW - 3 r-<..R . W. MARSH?.LL : I do no t really t hink that the hon . the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs (Mrs . Newhook) per - haps heard Your Honour at the t~~e but ~,e motion is before ,. for second reading . )1R . S • NEJI.RY : MR . SPR~KER (~ut t ) : No . )L~ . N . M..li,RSHALL: i'iell , i mean,if the hon. ge ntle - man wishes to do it, that is fine. MR . S. NEARY: Your Honour has recognized a member of the House . It is too late , Mr. Speaker . MR . \'i . ~1ARSH.llJ.L : That is all right . 11R. S • i:II"EARY: Too late . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Yield . MR. S .

NEARY: No , I will not yield to anybody in this House. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . member for LaPoile. M~. S . NEARY: Mr . Speaker , it is rather tragic , it is unfortunate that members on ministers introcucing bills in chis hen. House do not pay more attenti on tc <,;hat is going or. in the !iouse . Here we have a s i tuation 1"here a bill of major proportion is being intr~duced in this Rous.e and the minister sits in her seat when the Government House Lea der (Mr . Marshall) - :•ffi . SJ?EA:KER : Order . please! I l·lill have to recess o n this for jus t a brief moment .

I think there may be some- thing wronq with ~~e procedure here. MR . S . NEARY: There is nothing ,..,-rong with -· ':he pro cedure. There is nothing wronq with the proce - dure at all . 78 / h

!..- December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2871 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please. I have che .cked \,·ith some auth­ ority on this a·nd it has been brought to my attention, and certainly I know it from my own ex]::Jerience, that it is a tradition in this House that the minister introducinq the bill has an O]::Joortunity to speak first. However, if she does not want to avail of that opoortunity, then I 1-1ill certainly recognize the hon. member for LaPoile. M"R. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Soeaker, althoucrh it is the tradition of the House, although it is the tradition for ministers to introduce bills, once a member is recognized in this House Your Honour has no choice. Tradition is not t~e rules we are following in this House, we are following the rules laid down in the Standing Rules of this House. ~he~ a member is recognized, that member's right cannot be taken awav from him, Mr. Speaker. It cannot be taken away. And I ask Your Honour to give a ruling on that point of order. "'TR. ."ffiRSHALL: "1R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker . To the point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: That is a flagrant violation, Your Honour. Your Honour made a ruling and when the time came, when this bill was called, I crot uo on a point of order at the point of time and indicated that the hon. member, that the hon. minister had in fact not heard the bill beincr called . The hon. minister is down at the other end of the House and there is orobablv too much of a din of conversation all over the House anvway, from time to time. But, in any event, Mr. Speaker. wit h oatente d rudeness and discourtesy, the hon. 7877 ~ ~

Dece:nber lL 1980 Tat>e No . 2871 EL - 2 "!R . "!..'\H.S HALL : member refused to' yield the floor . '!'hat '"'as bad en·ough . But the 'fact of the matter is that ~our Honou~, on reconsideration , c~~e back , went out - that Your Honour went out and asked to recess the House to consider the matter . Your Honour has given a rul i ng ar.d , Mr . Speaker, Your Honour has given. the ruling and for th~ ~on. member for LaPoile {S. Neary) to qet t:c in this manner is really just challenainq Your Honour's rulinq and he is com9letelv and absolutelv o ut of order in his taetics. 11R .

SPEAKER (Butt) : I think I have hea=d enough on the 90int of order to make a ruling . SO"'E HON • ME.'1BERS : Oh , oh! MR . ROBERTS: Ii Your Honour •~ill not hear me, ::: cannot S?eak . Yt.R . THOMS: He has qot to speak. MR . ROB"E~TS : That is Your !-ionour's choice . If you do not lva"nt to hear it , Your Honour , I am not al.!m.,red to sneak . R. SPEA.KER: That is mv choice . <"!R . ROBERTS: I am sorry? MR . SPE11:KER : 't'ha't is mv choice . '"'.P..

ROBERTS: Fine, then so - ~UL SPEAKER: I think in this oarticular case we would be setting a danqerous o~ecedent so I would rule the~e is no r::~oint of order and I recognize ':.~e hen. the "'inister of unicioal .~f£airs (\1.rs . Ne'"hook) . SOME EON. ~E~ffiERS : :lea::, hear! SO"'E !;ON . :<tEMBE~S : Oh, ch! f-ie cannot oo c.ha t . Well, the sad fact is thac he can do it • . .rhile he is in the Chair . He should not, but he can . 76 7R

December 11, 1980 ~~ - SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs. MR. NEARY: Taoe No . 287 1 EL - 3 Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Let us get the Speaker back in th.e Chair . Let us have the Speaker back and appeal the ruling. MRS . NENHOOK: Mr. S9eaker, R. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I appeal. I move that your rulinq be aooealed. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I understand the Minister of Municipal Affairs (H. Newhook) has been recognized and the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Neary) has risen on a ]:)Oint of order. MR. NEARY: Yes, I am appealing the ruling given by the Deoutv Speaker (J. Butt), ~r.

Speaker. I move that the ruling.made was improper. It was not a ruling at all and I am appealing the ruling given by the Deputy Soeaker. ;A.R. SPEAKER : Is it the oleasure of the House that the Deout y Sp eak er's decis ion be sustain ·e d? Tho se i n fa vour say ave . SOME HON. MEMBERS: • "'R . SPEAKE R : SOME HON. MEri!BERS : MR . SPEAKE..~ : Affairs and Housing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: MR . SPEAKER : Aye . Contrary, nay. Nay. In my opinion the ayes have it. The hon. the Minister of Municipal Oh , ~h! Divid e, d i vide . Order , <:>leas e ! Division ? / l..,- - f lJ i u

December 11, 1980 Tape ~o . 2871 EL - 4 MR . S?~AXER (Simms): I would like tv, firs~ of all, do the Late Show and chen we :"ill have Division , i£ that is agreeable, acceotable . It bei .ng nearly five o'clock, I can inform the ?.ouse that I have received not.ice of t1.ro motions for d.ebate at five -thirty when a motio n to adjourn will be deemed to be before the Bouse . ~otice is given by the hon . the ma~ber for LaPoile (S . Neary) arising out. of a question asked the ~linister of '-'ines and Energv (L .Barry l and the subiect ma~ter is Canadian of :shore enerv .

And notice qiven by the hon . member for Ter::-a :-~ova {T . Lush) arisinq out of a cuestion asked the ~inister o: Labour and l'.~anoower {J . Dinn) and t!:le subject matter is employment statistics . On Division, call in the members . 76P.n .:

wzc- ---- ·~- December 11, 1980 Tape 2872 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To deal "lith sorre questions put to the Chair, the procedure is that yGu wait ten minutes unless the Chair is advised differently by both - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - unless the Chair is advised by both the Opposition and Government Whips to put the .question . Am I so advised? 50'ffi HON. .MEMBERS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The motion, then. Is it tt1e ;:>leasure of the House that the Deputy Speaker's decision or the Speaker's decision be sustained? Those in favour of the motion, please rise. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! ASSISTANT CLERK: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), the hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power) - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1-'lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! ASSISTANT CLERK: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hrs. Newhook), the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), the hon. the Minister of Recreation, Culture and Youth, and Envircnment (Mr. Dawe), the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), the hon. the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor), the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the hon. the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett), the hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), the hon. the Minister of Education (Ms Verge), the hon. the Minister of Health (Mr. House) , Mr. Andrews I Mr. Walsh, Mr. Butt, r1r. Rideout I Mr. Stagg, Mr. Collins, Mr. Barrett, Mr. Carter, Dr. Twomey, 7 s c: 1

December 11, 1980 Tape 2872 EC - 2 Mr. Doyle, Mr. Patters,on, Mr. Aylward, Dr. McNicholas, Mr. Stewart, Mr. Baird. MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s) : Those against the motion, please rise. ASSISTANT CLERK: Mr. Moores-, Mr. Flight, Mr. Lush, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Thoms, Mr. Frederick Rowe - MR. ROBERTS: Oh, come on! What about starting with the Leader of the Opposition, the way we have always started? il-SSI~'V!' CLER.X: :MR. SPEAKER: T'ne han. the Leader of the Opposition. Order, please! The Clerk Assistans is obviousl v new and I am sure that-it was an.oversiaht. SI"'ME EGN - ~~: .MR. NEA.."R.Y~ oversight.

ASSISTANT CLERK: Oh, oh! That ruling was a bit of an Mr. White, Mr. Bennett, Mr. Hollett, Mr. Warren, Mr. Tulk, Mr. Neary, Mr. Hancock, Mr. Hiscock. MR. SPEAK:C:R: Order, please! Those in favour of the motion, 31, those against the motion, 15. I declare the motion carried. The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a pQint of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the member for LaPoile. lVI..R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, when this unprecedented ruling was made, I had been recognized by the Chair and I have started my speech. The Deputy Speaker said, 'The member for LaPoile' and I started my speech. What I want to know, Your Honour, because we have already gone through this in this hon. House before, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) will recall several years ago. 78 ~? .:

December 11, 1980 Tape 2872 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: the minister got up and, I believe, just sai<". ··es. he was supporting - MR. OTTENHEIHE'R: Seconded. MR. NEARY: Seconded a motion, and he lost his right to speak. Now, what I want to know, Mr. Speaker, now that they have managed to take my right to speak away, will I get a chance to speak when my turn ~olls around again? ~1R. ROBE_RTS: Not by leave. MR. NEARY: Not by leave. No, not by leave, by right, Mr. Speaker. No by leave at all. I had already been recognized. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member has made his point.

I believe I understand his point. My understanding is that the decision that was made earlier was perhaps done a little bit hastily and I believe the Speaker indicated that in his ruling. I do not think there was any intention at all to take away the han. member's right to speak and I would leave it at that. The han. member does have a right to speak. The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS • NEWHOOK: Mr. Sp~aker, I do feel very badly that the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) felt he should take the position that he has taken.

Actually, I was sitting on the edge of my chair trying to hear, but there was some background noise and I just did not hear my name. I do not think it is fair for the han. member opposite to say that I was not paying attention. 7 F_; p ·4 . ·' ~

December 11, 1980 SOME HON. MEMBERS : ~1R. MORGAN: Tape No. 2873 Hear, hear! He was rude. Oh, oh! DW - l SOME HON. MEMBERS: !'IRS . NEWHOOK: I would have liked the hon. member perhaps instead of doing what he did to do to say, 'Minister of Municioal Affairs' I you know, just put his hand up and say - I would have done it fo~ him. I would do it for anybody on the opposite side of the House. SOME HON. MEr.ffiERS: Hear 1 hear! AN HON. MEMBER: is a lady. MRS . NE'VITHOOK: That is a lady now. There Mr. Speaker, with a view to bringing the basis for real property and business taxes in the city of St.

John's in line with all other- not all other, in line with other municipalities in New­ foundland and in line virtually with all other munici­ palities in North America, I do take great pleasure in introducing Bill No. 84. As perhaps most hon. members are aware,the St.

John's Municipal Council has requested our government to introduce legislation to provide for the adoption of the capital value system as the basis for taxation of commercial and industrial propertie~, industrial properties in 1981 and for residential properties in 1982. insufficient statutory The present city Act contains authority for the implementation of the capital value system. And while the city Act is scheduled for complete revision and consolidation it is not excepted to be ready for introduction into the Legis­ lature until 1982.

Meanwhile,Bill No. 84 is intended as an interim bill to permit the introduction of the capital value system for taxation purposes in 1981. 768L. -·

Dec~~er ll, 1980 Tape No . 2873 DW - 2 MRS • NEIVHOOK : Mr . S9eaker, 1 :"ould like to emphasize that this is ar. interim bill and for it to take so that the taxation can go ahead in 198l,it 1-1ill be reviet>'ed and then consolidated when the new Act is ready to ~e presented to this hen . House .

The ove ra ll effect c~ resi ­ cential and commercial property owners in tr.e city can­ not be adequatelv measured at this time . 3ut it can be said generally ~qat because of the inequities in the present ren:tal system, a conversion to ca9ital value will cause t-axations on some ~;n::operties to increase, on some pro'!;)erties to be less and,also, 01:her properties t;rrobably will no·t be affected very much at al l in com­ !)ar is on wi !:h existing pa~nnents .

The impact o f ~~e capita. value system on all properties in the city 111ill ~e phased in over a period not e:<ceeding five year s. 'i"'"' this Nill l?e=it the _city to adjust its tax revenue in relation to t.'"Ie ne':l system and it t.Jill allo•.o1 s u£ fi­ cient time for- pro~erty o•NTiers to ~djust to any dif ­ ferences in taxes that might result therefrom . Mr . Speaker, I ~o1oul d like to emphasize that t.his bill has three import3nt pro - visions : (

l) provision for the introd~ction of the ca~ital value system for taxation of cor.~ercial and industrial property in 1981 ; (2) provision for the introduction of the capital value system for taxa ­ tion of residential property in 1982; {3) provision to lessen the impact of t~e capital value system -:m re sidential. commercial. indust!:ial properties by permitting ti:.e introducl:ion of the capital value of taxation over a phased in five year trar~itional period . 7t~~. ~ r- ~

December 11, 1980 Tape No. 2873 DW - 3 MRS. NEWHOOK: The two basic functions of this bill are to bring forward the 9resent taxation provisions of the City of St. John's Act and to set out assessment procedures for the operation of the capital value system including provision for appeals to an-annual court of revision as contained in cur Provincial Assessment leqis­ lation. 7 6 E!f1 _:;

Dece~ber 11, 1980 Tape No. 2874 GH-1 MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, as I have said, this bill basically is a combination of the Provincial Assessment Act and the taxing provisions as contained in the present City Act with just a couple of additions. Mr. Speaker, the introduction of the capital value system will, I believe, correct a number of inequalities built into the present system. It should promote business development and expansion in the city and wi11 generally result in a more equitable distribution of the tax burden.

It actually means that those people paying very high taxes now for some reason or other and, especially, · I· ·. h · t on propert~es conta~n~ng apartments, t at these taxes w~ll e far less and on other properties where they do not pay as much tax that these taxes will be increased in comparison. There should be benefit to the renters of properties in the city in that rentals, if they are not reduced, then I would think that they will be stabilized over, perhaps, the next five year period.

It will be an incentive to would-be developers who have been waiting to build apartments and maybe housing projects and these kinds of